PDA

View Full Version : The 2e fighter converted to 3e [PEACH]



Ashtagon
2012-04-05, 06:09 AM
In some ways, the 3e fighter is actually a nerf from the 2e fighter.

This fighter fix is not intended to balance the fighter against the higher-tier classes. It's not even my ideal fighter fix (on its own). Instead, it's meant to give back all the toys that were taken away.

Unless noted otherwise, all details are the same as the base class from the PHB.

Jack of all Weapons: At 2nd level, a fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. In addition, any exotic weapon (even exotic weapons he has never seen before, and even improvised weapons) can be used at a -2 attack penalty (assuming he has not spent an EWP feat on that weapon). This replaces the normal -4 non-proficiency penalty.

In 2e, fighters are naturally good at all weapons, even if they haven't spent a weapon proficiency on them.

Strong and Tough: At 6th level, and again at 11th, 16th, and 20th class level, a fighter adds +1 to each of Strength and Constitution. This is in addition to the normal ability score bonuses for character level.

This was the only way I could think of to reflect the fact that 2e fighters get extra bonuses above and beyond what other classes can gain for having high Strength and Constitution scores.

Grin and Bear It: Starting at 1st level, a fighter may choose to use his Constitution modifier instead of his Wisdom modifier for all Will saving throws.

Making the Save: Starting at 1st level, a number of times per day equal to his class level, a fighter may re-roll a saving throw.

In 2e, fighters start with the worst saving throws, but end with the best saving throws. Since there isn't a save progression better than good, this seems like a better approach, as it allows the player some agency.

Weapon Master: At 1st level, choose a single weapon type (eg. warhammer or longsword). With that weapon, add your class level to any damage roll.

In addition, provided you attack with that weapon only in a given round, you may make one extra attack. If you choose to make an extra attack, all attacks (including the extra attack, and including any attacks of opportunity) suffer a -2 attack penalty.

2e fighters can choose to spend a weapon proficiency slot on specialising in a weapon. May as well let them have this for free.

Skills: Fighters get 4 skill points per level plus their Intelligence modifier (4 at 1st level).

The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb , Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (architecture & engineering, history, local, nobility & royalty), Listen, Ride, Search, Spot, and Swim.

Added class skills are in blue. 2e fighters were often expected to be the party face in terms of RP, so the skills need to reflect that.

Edit: Clarified when Making the Save and Grin and Bear It come into play.

Amechra
2012-04-05, 09:05 AM
This would be slapped onto the normal Fighter chassis, right?

What levels would Grin and Bear It and Making the Save be added to?

Otherwise, it looks quite nice.

The Troubadour
2012-04-05, 09:46 AM
In 2e, fighters are naturally good at all weapons, even if they haven't spent a weapon proficiency on them.

If I remember it correctly, when using the weapon/non-weapon proficiency optional rules, they aren't.


This was the only way I could think of to reflect the fact that 2e fighters get extra bonuses above and beyond what other classes can gain for having high Strength and Constitution scores.

Perhaps something like:
"A Fighter adds 1 point of Strength bonus (if any) per Fighter class level to all attack and damage rolls."
"Subtract the Fighter's Constitution bonus from the damage he takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack."


Grin and Bear It: A fighter may choose to use his Constitution modifier instead of his Wisdom modifier for all Will saving throws.

How is this based on 2E?


Making the Save: A number of times per day equal to his class level, a fighter may re-roll a saving throw.

I'd add a limit to the number of times you can re-roll the same save; either that, or reduce the total number of re-rolls.


2e fighters can choose to spend a weapon proficiency slot on specialising in a weapon. May as well let them have this for free.

How about simply giving Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Specialization and Weapon Supremacy for free, then?


2e fighters were often expected to be the party face in terms of RP, so the skills need to reflect that.

I strongly disagree with this statement. :-) That said, I don't mind the additional class skills/skill points - I just think your basis for it is incorrect.

Ashtagon
2012-04-05, 09:53 AM
This would be slapped onto the normal Fighter chassis, right?

Correct. Everything here is in addition to what a 3e srd fighter gets.


What levels would Grin and Bear It and Making the Save be added to?

1st level.


Otherwise, it looks quite nice.

Thank you.

Ashtagon
2012-04-05, 10:02 AM
If I remember it correctly, when using the weapon/non-weapon proficiency optional rules, they aren't.

Using those proficiency rules, other classes had a -4 or -5 non-proficiency penalty, while fighters had a -2 penalty.



Perhaps something like:
"A Fighter adds 1 point of Strength bonus (if any) per Fighter class level to all attack and damage rolls."
"Subtract the Fighter's Constitution bonus from the damage he takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack."
]

They have a damage and hp bonus, but it's not THAT big. The hp bonus represents (potentially) 2 extra hp/level above what a non-fighter might have. The damage bonus was potentially +4 hp/hit more damage. Your change would make the difference much too big.



How is this based on 2E?


2e fighters ended up with the best saves in the game. Even to start with, they had decent saves.



I'd add a limit to the number of times you can re-roll the same save; either that, or reduce the total number of re-rolls.



I'm in two minds on this. If they absolutely positively need to make a save, they can burn through a ton of re-rolls, but then they won't have any for next time. It's resource management. Maybe limit it to using a maximum of 3 per save?



How about simply giving Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Specialization and Weapon Supremacy for free, then?

Because...

a) Those feats are crap.
b) It means the player can't choose to take those feats for additional bonuses.
c) They don't let a 1st level fighter get multiple attacks, which is possible under 2e specialisation.



I strongly disagree with this statement. :-) That said, I don't mind the additional class skills/skill points - I just think your basis for it is incorrect.

Fair comment. I guess it depends to some extent on your play style for the extra skills.

nonsi
2012-04-05, 10:27 AM
For this particular fix, I'd put 'Strong and Tough' at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17 - just to fill dead levels.

Also, since low-level Fighters are actually decent compared to most other equal-leveled characters, I'd distribute 'Jack of all Weapons' and 'Making the Save' at levels 3 and 7 respectively - again, just to make each level advancement worth while and minimize dead levels. Now only level 19 is dead (since you get an extra attack at 11th and a HD-derived feat at 15th). You could fill it with something nice or keep it dead (doesn't really matter at this level).

The Troubadour
2012-04-05, 04:45 PM
Using those proficiency rules, other classes had a -4 or -5 non-proficiency penalty, while fighters had a -2 penalty.

Right! I forgot about that.


They have a damage and hp bonus, but it's not THAT big. The hp bonus represents (potentially) 2 extra hp/level above what a non-fighter might have. The damage bonus was potentially +4 hp/hit more damage. Your change would make the difference much too big.

Hmmm... Perhaps the DR could be 1/2 CON bonus, then?
As for the attack/damage bonus, it would basically double the Fighter's STR bonus at level 3 or 4. It's not that powerful, I'd say.


2e fighters ended up with the best saves in the game. Even to start with, they had decent saves.

Except against magic, which is what Will saves against 99% of the time. :-)


Maybe limit it to using a maximum of 3 per save?

I'd say 2, but I'm a cautious homebrewer. :-)


a) Those feats are crap.
b) It means the player can't choose to take those feats for additional bonuses.
c) They don't let a 1st level fighter get multiple attacks, which is possible under 2e specialisation.

a) and b): Fair enough. :-) But I don't think a 1st-level Fighter should get multiple attacks already. Hmmm... Perhaps you could give the Fighter an ability similar to the Monk's Flurry of Blows to represent that?

Siosilvar
2012-04-05, 05:04 PM
They have a damage and hp bonus, but it's not THAT big. The hp bonus represents (potentially) 2 extra hp/level above what a non-fighter might have. The damage bonus was potentially +4 hp/hit more damage. Your change would make the difference much too big.

2 hit points per level, when your next nearest competitor has 6.5 hp per level at most (16 Con cleric), is a pretty big difference. In 3.5, the only difference between a fighter and cleric as far as hit points go is the base 1 difference in average dice. AD&D's up-to-3hp gap was actually fairly wide. Admittedly, it only made a difference before 9th level, but after that, they gained 50% extra hit points when compared to other classes (3 vs. 2 for clerics and thieves).

A 9th-level fighter with 18 Con would have about 86 hp. A similarly-leveled cleric (with 16+ Con) would have 59hp. That's about a 50% difference, as well, though it wasn't always as wide, given that a fighter would probably only have an 18 Con if two 18s were rolled or they weren't allowed to arrange as desired.

[Note that although the XP tables are different for different classes, clerics and fighters are both 9th level for a large chunk of the same XP totals.]

Zombimode
2012-04-05, 05:28 PM
But I don't think a 1st-level Fighter should get multiple attacks already. Hmmm... Perhaps you could give the Fighter an ability similar to the Monk's Flurry of Blows to represent that?

The only difference is that Flurry of It Blows requires the full attack action, while this ability here as written seem to be function also with single attack actions and even maneuvers. The wording isnt that clear tbh.
Otherwise both abilies are very similar: both give a extra attack and impose a penalty of -2 to all attacks.


Some things to consider: it was very easy for 2e to be equaly good at different fighting styles.
My own 2e fighter for example was equaly acomplished with the dagger, broadsword and heavy lance, in addition to be able to drop his shield and fight with his sword and dagger in TWF-style. At level 3.
For a multitude of reasons this is impossible in 3e, even at level 20.
Now to be "good" with a specific weapon/fighting style several feats and dips into other classes are usualy required.

To replicate this, a satisfying level of competence in a certain area would need to be reachable with minimal investment of ressources.
Like "Spend one feat slot, gain Improved Trip and Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) as bonus feats, the "sweeping" weapon echantment for free, gain the ability to use the psionic power Expansion and and 4 power points" because all that would be needed to have a satisfiying level of competence as a tripper.

Ashtagon
2012-04-05, 05:45 PM
The only difference is that Flurry of It Blows requires the full attack action, while this ability here as written seem to be function also with single attack actions and even maneuvers. The wording isn't that clear tbh.
Otherwise both abilities are very similar: both give a extra attack and impose a penalty of -2 to all attacks.


Hmm. I had intended it to be the fighter's flurry of blows and to operate in broadly the same manner. The ambiguity over whether you can do it as a standard action or not was an oversight. But thinking about it, I'm okay with allowing it as a standard. It's not like fighters have a surplus of nice things.

otoh, standard action flurry at 1st level may be a bit much. Maybe offer that at level 6 or so.

and otth, any kind of multi attack in 3e conventionally requires a full round action. I never did like that rule though. grrr.



Some things to consider: it was very easy for 2e to be equally good at different fighting styles.
My own 2e fighter for example was equally accomplished with the dagger, broadsword and heavy lance, in addition to be able to drop his shield and fight with his sword and dagger in TWF-style. At level 3.
For a multitude of reasons this is impossible in 3e, even at level 20.
Now to be "good" with a specific weapon/fighting style several feats and dips into other classes are usually required.

To replicate this, a satisfying level of competence in a certain area would need to be reachable with minimal investment of resources.
Like "Spend one feat slot, gain Improved Trip and Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) as bonus feats, the "sweeping" weapon enchantment for free, gain the ability to use the psionic power Expansion and and 4 power points" because all that would be needed to have a satisfying level of competence as a tripper.

This would require an overhaul of the 3e feats system, which is beyond the scope of this thread.

And Tome of Battle stuff is definitely beyond the scope of converting the 2e fighter to 3e.

@Siosilvar

The maximum difference is +2hp/level for Con, and +4 damage/hit for Str (assuming 18/00 Str). However, that assumes an extreme level of optimisation which wasn't generally possible with the character generation rules commonly allowed in 2e. Even having a single ability score of 18 in the party was unusual if char-gen rules were followed properly. While those were teh maximum possible increases, they weren't the probable differences.

Starbuck_II
2012-04-06, 02:10 PM
the same as the base class from the PHB.

Jack of all Weapons: At 2nd level, a fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. In addition, any exotic weapon (even exotic weapons he has never seen before, and even improvised weapons) can be used at a -2 attack penalty (assuming he has not spent an EWP feat on that weapon). This replaces the normal -4 non-proficiency penalty.

In 2e, fighters are naturally good at all weapons, even if they haven't spent a weapon proficiency on them.

You need to reread the 2E Fighter.
Yes, they had only a -2 poenalty for non-proficient, but they were not proficient with all weapons.
You (Fighter) had 4 + Int bonus (which wasn't +1 per Int bonus, but +1 at 2Int, +2 at 9 int, +3 at 12 Int, +4 at 14, +5 at 16, +6 at 17, etc). And less than that if you wanted to specialize (and you did).
And an extra proficiency every 3 levels.


Grin and Bear It: Starting at 1st level, a fighter may choose to use his Constitution modifier instead of his Wisdom modifier for all Will saving throws.

Not even close to 2E fighter.


Making the Save: Starting at 1st level, a number of times per day equal to his class level, a fighter may re-roll a saving throw.

In 2e, fighters start with the worst saving throws, but end with the best saving throws. Since there isn't a save progression better than good, this seems like a better approach, as it allows the player some agency.

Fine with that.


Weapon Master: At 1st level, choose a single weapon type (eg. warhammer or longsword). With that weapon, add your class level to any damage roll.

In addition, provided you attack with that weapon only in a given round, you may make one extra attack. If you choose to make an extra attack, all attacks (including the extra attack, and including any attacks of opportunity) suffer a -2 attack penalty.

2e fighters can choose to spend a weapon proficiency slot on specialising in a weapon. May as well let them have this for free.

No, not for free instead of learning a weapon if you are following 2E.
Look, you can't have it both ways.


Skills: Fighters get 4 skill points per level plus their Intelligence modifier (4 at 1st level).

The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb , Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (architecture & engineering, history, local, nobility & royalty), Listen, Ride, Search, Spot, and Swim.

Added class skills are in blue. 2e fighters were often expected to be the party face in terms of RP, so the skills need to reflect that.


No, they were not.
they had the worst Non-prioficiency (read skills).
Funny enough Rogues sucked at them too. Wizard/Priest were more skilled.
I think you are confusing you DM's house rules with 2E. I know not everyone actually followed the game rules, but you should reread the book.

Mulletmanalive
2012-04-07, 01:02 PM
No, they were not.
they had the worst Non-prioficiency (read skills).
Funny enough Rogues sucked at them too. Wizard/Priest were more skilled.
I think you are confusing you DM's house rules with 2E. I know not everyone actually followed the game rules, but you should reread the book.

They really were, in my experience. There weren't even any social proficiencies beyond Etiquette in the main book and the ones added to the list be the complete series were usually general proficiencies anyway.

Besides, she's talking about Roleplaying and what little fluff they hadn't stripped out of the 2e books after the hilarity of 1e left me at least with the distinct impression that fighters or paladins would be the ones doing the talking. It was especially true of the complete series, which usually had a narrator in the form of a level headed fighter

lesser_minion
2012-04-09, 08:22 AM
For the most part, this seems OK. I probably wouldn't do the standard action flurry of blows thing, not because that wasn't part of 2nd edition, but because it's really a separate issue that exists with the system itself, not something specific to the fighter.


You need to reread the 2E Fighter.
Yes, they had only a -2 poenalty for non-proficient, but they were not proficient with all weapons.

Ash hasn't given them that, though: the proficiency with all simple and martial weapons is just a restatement of what they already get for free just for being a 3rd edition fighter.