PDA

View Full Version : [Fix] The Monk (3.5)



Phosphate
2012-04-07, 05:08 AM
So, this is my take on the monk fix, since I wanted to do one in a while anyway. From the start, I will tell you a couple things I will and won't do.


- I will keep the monk MAD. He will, as usual, be able to dump Cha, Int and Con and only focus on the other 3, but I'm not going any further than that.
- I will give him a Ki pool, which will serve most purposes related to him.
- I won't increase his out of combat utility much.
- I will increase his in-combat utility, but not by a lot. The main difference will be the amount of damage he can deal.
- I will make some of his abilities less level dependent, or rather dependent on ki.
- I intend to make the monk better than tier 5, but I don't care whether I get in 3 or 4.
- I won't make him better at or do awesome things with exotic weapons, simply because I'm not that familiar with that area of the game.
- I will keep most of the original 3.5 monk's features.

Also, I will format it as it is in the SRD, so expect some features to be written above the table rather than beneath.

The Monk
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2009/08/d3monkymonk.jpg

Starting Age: as monk
Starting Gold: as monk
Alignment: Any

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills

The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.


{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2| Ki Pool, Unarmed Strike, Combat Adept

2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3| Ki Reflex, Evasion, Still Mind, Wonder

3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3| Ki Speed, Technique, Mettle

4th|+4|+4|+4|+4| Ki Hardiness, Masterful Blow, Purity of Body

5th|+5|+4|+4|+4| Efficient Resting, Slow Fall, Wonder

6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5| Ki Weather Ward, Technique, Battle Wisdom

7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5| Ki Swiftness, Wholeness of Body

8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6| Improved Evasion, Wonder

9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6| Ki Deception, Technique, Improved Mettle

10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7| Greater Resting, Diamond Body, Precision Blow

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7| Ki Integrity, Abundant Step, Wonder

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8| Ki Magical Resistance, Overblow, Technique

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8| Ki Renewal, Quivering Palm

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9| Ki Diffraction, Tongues, Wonder

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9| Ki Greater Swiftness, Timeless Body, Technique

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10| Ki Reach, Mind Blank

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10| Diamond Skin, Wonder

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11| Ki Grounding, Greater Precision Blow, Technique

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11| Ki Sublime Swiftness, Unfocused Frenzy

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12| Perfect Self, Wonder

[/table]

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Monks are proficient with light armor, but no shields.

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk is treated as having 5 less Ki for the purpose of abilities based on Ki amount (less current Ki, maximum Ki stays the same), and expends 1 additional ki every time he uses a feature which expends Ki.

Ki Pool (Su): A monk has a ki pool, with a number of ki points in it that is usually equal to his level (he starts with 1 point and gains 1 point per level). He uses those points for several of his abilities. After a monk's ki pool is depleted entirely, he is fatigued until he gains 1 point. There are two ways to retrieve ki: they regenerate normally at the rate of 1 per hour, and by spending two hours in silent meditation you can retrieve all of them.

Unarmed Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, depending on his strength modifier. With a +0 or lower modifier, you deal damage as a creature of your size, multiplied by 2. With a +2 modifier, you deal damage as a creature 1 size larger, multiplied by 2. With a +4 modifier, you deal damage as a creature 2 sizes larger, multiplied by 2, and so on and so forth up to Colossal+++.

Here's a table for Medium Monks. For Small monks, go 1 step back. For Large monks, advance 1 step.

{table=head]Strength | Unarmed Damage
3-13 | 2d3
14-17 | 2d4
18-21 | 2d6
22-25 | 2d8
26-29 | 2d10
30-33 | 4d6
34-37 | 4d8
38-41 | 6d6[/table]


Combat Adept: A level 1 monk gains Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm and Improved Trip as bonus feats. He need not meet the prerequisites.

Ki Reflex (Su): A level 2 monk is more aware and steadier on his feet when his Ki is focused. He gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to his current number of ki points/2, rounded down. In situations where the monk is denied his dex to AC, this bonus is not added.

Also, a monk adds his wisdom modifier (if any) to AC, but only when unencumbered and wearing light or no armor, and when he has more than 0 ki. This is not added when the monk is immobilized or helpless.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Still Mind (Ex): A monk of 2nd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting effects.

Wonder: At level 2, and every 3 levels thereafter, a monk may either choose to increase his Ki pool by 1 (this is in addition to the Ki point he receives at every level) or learn a special ability, called wonder. Wonders are all Supernatural abilities.



Premonition: Learn a divination spell. You may only learn it if a druid, bard, cleric or wizard of the same level as you can learn it, and if your wisdom score is equal to at least 10+spell level. You may use it up to 4 times per day, and using it makes you lose a number of Ki points equal to its level+1. Treat your monk level as your caster level.

Elemental Shaken: Strike an opponent with an unarmed melee attack as a swift action. If you hit and deal damage (the damage from Elemental Shaken is always nonlethal), expend 1 Ki point. If you do, reduce all the target's resistances to energy by 10 for 1 minute. Stacks.

Eye of the Mind: Expend 2 Ki points. You are treated as having Darkvision 60 feet, Tremorsense 30 feet and Scent for 10 minutes.

Karma: Whenever you fail a save, you can expend a number of Ki points to reroll it. This number is equal to the number of times you used this ability today.

Mind over Matter: Whenever you need to make a Fort save, you can expend 2 Ki points to make a Will save instead.

Gather Anatomic Data: Make an unarmed melee attack against an opponent as a standard action and expend 2 Ki points +1 per size of the opponent above medium. If you hit, your next unarmed strike against that opponent will be a critical.

Inner Reserves: You can stay in an airless environment without penalty as long as you expend 1 Ki point per minute.

Finishing Strike: Make a full attack composed only of unarmed strikes against an opponent and expend all your Ki points. Increase the damage of all your strikes by the number of Ki points expended. You may not regenerate Ki points in any way for 4 hours.

Ki Blast: Requires line of sight, but can be used at any distance as long as line of sight exists. Make a ranged touch attack as a swift action against an opponent and expend 2 Ki points. If it hits, the opponent receives class level/2*1d6 untyped damage.

Pain of Determination: To use this wonder, expend 10 Ki points as a free action. All nonmagical attacks that hit you for 3 rounds will heal you instead of dealing damage.

Renewal: Expend x Ki points. You gain Fast Healing x for x/2 rounds.

Skewer Metabolism: Make a touch attack as a swift action or an unarmed strike as a standard action against an opponent and expend 5 Ki points. If you hit, the target can no longer heal ability damage and hit points naturally for 24 hours. This includes Fast Healing and Regeneration.



Ki Speed (Su): A level 3 and higher monk gains an enhancement bonus to his base speed equal to 5 feet*the number of Ki points he has. This bonus is only applied when the monk walks normally or at double pace, not when he runs.

Technique: At level 3, and every 3 levels thereafter, a monk may either choose to gain a feat from the fighter bonus feat list or learn a special ability, called technique. Techniques are all Extraordinary abilities that can be used at will.


Flurry of Blows: You may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus in a full attack. This attack must be an unarmed strike. You may take this technique twice. If you do, you may make two extra attacks.

Rapid Blow: You may make an unarmed strike as a swift action, but at half your maximum base attack bonus.

Stonecrusher Fist: If you make an unarmed strike as a standard action against an elemental, construct, living construct or ooze, maximize your damage dice.

Shoulder Toss: Make both a Bull Rush and a Trip attempt against an opponent at the same time as a full round action. For the purpose of size modifiers, treat yourself as 1 size larger for every 2 points of strength modifier, capped at 3. If one or both attempts fail, the opponent is given an AoO against you (but not before). If both succeed, the opponent is thrown, in any direction, at the distance he would have been pushed if you had Bull Rushed him. The monk remains where he was, however. The opponent falls prone to the ground and receives 1d6*Str mod damage.

Neck Weak Spot: Attack an opponent with an unarmed strike as a standard action. If it hits and you deal damage, the next unarmed strike that will hit the target will stun him for 1d4 rounds. After a creature is affected by Neck Weak Spot, it becomes immune to it for 5 minutes.

Caution: You gain a +4 untyped bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity only.

Aggressive Trip: When you successfully trip an opponent you also deal damage to him as if you hit with an unarmed strike, but without adding your strength modifier.

Dodge and Grab: If your opponent makes a melee attack roll against your AC and misses by 4 or more, you may immediately make a disarm attempt as a non-action.

Batter: If you successfully hit a target in melee with 3 attacks in a row in a single round, your 3rd attack will deal 6d6 bonus damage. Unlike other forms of precision damage, this damage does apply to foes immune to critical hits too.

Higher Ground: If, at the start of your round, you are in a position of terrain above an opponent, and that opponent is less than 100 feet away from you, you gain +4 to your melee attack and damage rolls against him until the end of the round.

Stance of the Giant: Expend a swift action. Until your next round, you are treated as 2 sizes larger for the purpose of all opposed rolls. Stacks.

Weakening Blow: Attack an opponent with an unarmed melee attack as a standard action, taking a -2 penalty. If you hit, the target is treated as having -4 to Strength for 1d4 rounds. Doesn't stack.



Mettle (Ex): At 3rd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Will or Fort saving throw against an effect that normally triggers a partial effect on a failed save, he instead incurs no effect.

Ki Hardiness (Su): A level 4 or higher monk gains DR/- equal to half his current Ki points and resistance to all energy types equal to his current Ki points.

Masterful Blow (Ex): A level 4 or higher monk ignores his target's damage reduction and hardness when landing unarmed attacks.

Purity of Body (Ex): At 4th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical ones.

Efficient Resting (Ex): If a level 5 or higher monk meditates 2 hours to restore Ki points, he is treated as having slept for 8 hours.

Slow Fall (Ex): A level 5 or higher monk always receives minimized damage from falling.

Ki Weather Ward (Ex): A level 6 or higher monk ignores the effect of harsh weather of any kind as long as he has at least half of his maximum amount of Ki.

Battle Wisdom (Ex): A level 6 or higher monk adds his Wisdom modifier to all melee damage rolls, and to the attack roll of his unarmed strike.

Ki Swiftness (Su): A level 7 monk gains an additional swift action per round. He can only make use of it as long as his Ki points are at one third (rounded up) of the maximum or higher.

Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice her current monk level + her Wisdom modifier each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 8th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Ki Deception (Su): As long as a level 9 monk as at least half of his maximum Ki points, he may treat himself as any alignment he wants when dealing with or being put under alignment detecting effects. Also, his lies cannot be discerned through magic and he cannot be magically forced to speak the truth (though, naturally, a foe with a high enough Sense Motive can still detect his lies).

Improved Mettle (Ex): At 9th level, a monk’s mettle ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Will or Fort saving throw against effects, but henceforth she incurs only the partial effect on a failed save.

Greater Resting (Ex): A level 10 monk only needs to meditate for 1 hour to retrieve his Ki and be treated as if he slept for 8 hours. Furthermore, aside from being fatigued when he has 0 Ki, the monk is completely immune to fatigue, exhaustion, and sleep effects.

Diamond Body (Su): At 10th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.

Precision Blow (Ex): A level 10 monk's unarmed strikes have a threat range of 18-20 and deal x3 damage on a critical.

Ki Integrity (Su): A level 11 monk is immune to ability damage and ability drain as long as he has at least a quarter of his maximum Ki, rounded up.

Abundant Step (Su): At 11th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, wis mod times per day. Her caster level for this effect is equal to her monk level. Unlike Dimension Door though, Abundant Step uses up a swift action.

Ki Resistance (Su): A level 12 or higher monk gains SR and PR equal to 12+his current amount of ki points. This never goes below 20.

Overblow (Ex): Whenever a level 12 monk attacks an opponent in melee with an unarmed strike and beats his AC, subtract the AC from his attack roll and add half of that to the damage dealt.

Ki Renewal (Su): A level 13 monk gains 2d6 hit points every time he expends Ki points.

Quivering Palm (Su): Starting at 13th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once per day, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to her monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ˝ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.

Ki Diffraction (Su): As long as he has half his maximum Ki points, a level 14 or higher monk is always treated as having 20% concealment. Furthermore, ranged weapons used against him apply penalties as if they are shooting from one range increment farther.

Tongues (Su): A level 14 monk can speak with any creature that has a verbal language.

Ki Greater Swiftness (Su): A level 15 monk gains an additional standard action per round. He can only make use of it as long as his Ki points are at one third (rounded up) of the maximum or higher.

Timeless Body (Ex): Upon attaining 15th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken are also removed. Bonuses still accrue. Also, the monk no longer has a maximum age at which he dies.

Ki Reach (Su): A level 16 monk has his reach increased by 5 feet for every 5 Ki points he has for the purpose of attacking, AoEs, and tripping only.

Mind Blank (Ex): A level 16 is treated as being under an extraordinary Mind Blank effect whenever it is advantageous to him.

Diamond Skin (Su): A level 17 monk is immune to slashing damage and Rend.

Ki Grounding (Su): As long as a level 18 monk has at least 1 Ki point, he can always refuse to be affected by effects which involve teleportation, without needing to save against them.

Greater Precision Blow (Ex): A level 18 monk' unarmed strikes have a threat range of 16-20 and deal x4 damage on a critical.

Ki Sublime Swiftness (Su): A level 19 monk gains an additional round. This round is always at the bottom of the initiative row. He can only make use of it as long as his Ki points are at one third (rounded up) of the maximum or higher.

Unfocused Frenzy (Ex): A level 19 monk with 0 Ki points is a dangerous wreck. He is no longer fatigued, but receives a -2 penalty to all mental ability scores and a +4 bonus to all physical ability scores. He also gains the ability to increase his Ki to 1 as a free action, but can only use it when he has 0.

Perfect Self (Ex): A level 20 monk reaches the epitome of greatness. All his supernatural abilities are treated as extraordinary abilities, he may retrieve all his Ki points as a free action once per round, he can become incorporeal at will, but loses 1 Ki point per 2 rounds while in this state, and he becomes immune to negative energy.


Battle Monk Variant

When playing a monk, a player may choose to give up these class features: Still Mind, Purity of Body, Slow Fall, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Tongues, Timeless Body, and Mind Blank. If he does, the text of his Technique changes to this:

At level 3, and every 3 levels thereafter, a monk may either choose to gain a feat from the fighter bonus feat list or and learn a special ability, called technique.

Mystic Monk Variant

When playing a monk, a player may choose to give up these class features: Still Mind, Purity of Body, Slow Fall, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Tongues, Timeless Body, and Mind Blank. If he does, the text of his Wonder changes to this:

At level 2, and every 3 levels thereafter, a monk may either choose to increase his Ki pool by 1 (this is in addition to the Ki point he receives at every level) or and learn a special ability, called wonder.

Hardened Monk Variant

When playing a monk, a player may choose to be able only to accrue Ki points and gain bonus feats from Technique and Wonder, and not actually gain techniques and wonders. If he does, his HD becomes d12.

Phosphate
2012-04-08, 01:56 PM
Well, this is mostly it. You may peach.

Apalala
2012-04-08, 06:46 PM
1. What's the point of getting a ki pool at level 1 if you can't spend it on anything and even if you could, using it would instantly fatigue you?

2. Okay, I'm making a level 5 monk with 16 strength, so I guess I deal...oh, guess I need to go look up the a table elsewhere. That's fun. You should also clarify whether the weapon dice are multiplied or ALL damage is multiplied.

3. One level dip gives you +2 to every save, extra BAB, an unarmed weapon that deals waaaaaaaay more damage than anything else, and 4 extra feats.

4. AC bonus comes at level 2, so level one is a bit of a glass cannon. And wow, wis+1/2level. That's quite a bump. Combined with other bonuses, going to be very hard to hit the monk.

5. All of these wonders really suck. For example, at level 10, you can burn ALL of your ki pool to gain fast healing 10 for 5 rounds, dropping your AC by 5 in the process. Mind Over Matter is pointless when both are good saves and monks already need both con and wis, plus Karma is going to be cheaper and more versatile.

6. Ki Speed reveals a running theme, that a Monk can do cool things as long as he has ki points, or he can spend them for a temporary boost and basically lose his class features for the rest of the day.

7. Techniques are stupid crazy. None require Ki Points, and they basically break combat. At higher levels, Neck Weak Spot and Rapid Blow can combine into "Anything in melee is stunned."

8. Efficient Resting doesn't actually do anything.

9. Most of the abilities that come after this either don't do very much in practice or turn the monk into even more of a combat monster.

10. Overblow. "I roll a 30, monster has 25 AC, so....+2 damage, wooo!" Multiple sources of bonus damage is boring and a pain to keep track of.

11. Ki Greater Swiftness = "Can I hit it? Can it be stunned? Cool, I win."

12. Ki Reach gives you an extra 20 foot of reach, because no one is going to take wonders. Imagine if you were a PC and the gm through your melee dude against a monster with 25 foot reach, who AoO you when you did anything ever.

13. Capstones are crazy, but sure, whatever, no one plays at that level anyhow.

Phosphate
2012-04-09, 12:55 AM
1. What's the point of getting a ki pool at level 1 if you can't spend it on anything and even if you could, using it would instantly fatigue you?

It's less tedious than making you gain the Ki pool at level 2, and saying you start with 2 points.


2. Okay, I'm making a level 5 monk with 16 strength, so I guess I deal...oh, guess I need to go look up the a table elsewhere. That's fun. You should also clarify whether the weapon dice are multiplied or ALL damage is multiplied.

Added a table. However, you really SHOULDN'T have only 16 strength at level 5 with this monk. It's the easiest to buff stat after all.


3. One level dip gives you +2 to every save, extra BAB, an unarmed weapon that deals waaaaaaaay more damage than anything else, and 4 extra feats.

As true as that might be, as you said, you usually wouldn't want only a dip, since what you get at level 2 is so cool. And so on.


4. AC bonus comes at level 2, so level one is a bit of a glass cannon. And wow, wis+1/2level. That's quite a bump. Combined with other bonuses, going to be very hard to hit the monk.

I always imagined the monk as the signature "hard to hit dude". Plus, it gives you a very good excuse to dump con.


5. All of these wonders really suck. For example, at level 10, you can burn ALL of your ki pool to gain fast healing 10 for 5 rounds, dropping your AC by 5 in the process. Mind Over Matter is pointless when both are good saves and monks already need both con and wis, plus Karma is going to be cheaper and more versatile.

You don't need con when you have this much AC and damage resistance to top it off, and you ignore spells left and right. Also, Karma won't be cheap all day. First use is 1 ki, second is 2 ki, third is 3 ki, and from this points it's already looking bad for you.

But if you have suggestions how I can improve wonders I'll be glad to listen.


6. Ki Speed reveals a running theme, that a Monk can do cool things as long as he has ki points, or he can spend them for a temporary boost and basically lose his class features for the rest of the day.

Rest of the day? He only needs 2 hours to completely regain all his Ki. After level 10 only 1 hour.


7. Techniques are stupid crazy. None require Ki Points, and they basically break combat. At higher levels, Neck Weak Spot and Rapid Blow can combine into "Anything in melee is stunned."

Mhm.


8. Efficient Resting doesn't actually do anything.

? Wonder why elf trance is considered nice then...


9. Most of the abilities that come after this either don't do very much in practice or turn the monk into even more of a combat monster.

The ones that don't do much are from the original 3.5 class, since I thought...why the hell not?


10. Overblow. "I roll a 30, monster has 25 AC, so....+2 damage, wooo!" Multiple sources of bonus damage is boring and a pain to keep track of.

You...deal more damage for free. That's gotta count for something.
Also, you will never deal ONLY +2 damage. Since you add your wisdom to attack rolls and your strength should already be insanely high.


11. Ki Greater Swiftness = "Can I hit it? Can it be stunned? Cool, I win."

Yep.


12. Ki Reach gives you an extra 20 foot of reach, because no one is going to take wonders. Imagine if you were a PC and the gm through your melee dude against a monster with 25 foot reach, who AoO you when you did anything ever.

Yeah, that can happen. But tis' not something new, melee dudes can be incapacitated by a lot of things though: enemies with regeneration, incorporeals, swarms.


13. Capstones are crazy, but sure, whatever, no one plays at that level anyhow.

I've seen crazier :)). Admittedly, in homebrews, not OGL material.

madock345
2012-04-09, 03:11 PM
I really like all the abilites you have made here, but there might be too many of them. maybe you could have some you would have to choose between, especially wherever you would be getting three or more abilities on one level.

Phosphate
2012-04-09, 04:34 PM
I really like all the abilites you have made here, but there might be too many of them. maybe you could have some you would have to choose between, especially wherever you would be getting three or more abilities on one level.


Hence the Variants.

Apalala
2012-04-09, 09:42 PM
My basic thought on this class is, it's going to dominate combat, overshadowing everyone else in the party by a wide margin, but not have much to do outside of combat.

I don't think it's very well balanced and I think that it would be at all welcome in any but the most optimized or twinked-out parties.

Phosphate
2012-04-10, 07:00 AM
but not have much to do outside of combat

Uhm let me see...it can get senses he doesn't normally have, speak all languages, withdraw from anything, fall any distance, exist in any weather conditions, bypass interrogation, has a huge skill list, can adventure underwater, can teleport, and can scry. Tell me another martial class which can do more.

Bahamut Omega
2012-04-10, 08:42 AM
Uhm let me see...it can get senses he doesn't normally have, speak all languages, withdraw from anything, fall any distance, exist in any weather conditions, bypass interrogation, has a huge skill list, can adventure underwater, can teleport, and can scry. Tell me another martial class which can do more.

That's exactly the problem with this class revision. It can do nigh everything. Overall, I'm not understanding the need for such a massive overhaul of the class.

One of the things I like the most about the monk is that it's one of the few core classes without any dead levels, something which irks me greatly for nearly any other core class. More than anything, I'd like to see a variation of the core rules whereby the monk's body can be enchanted as armor. Therefore, their AC can scale at a rate comparable to other characters, the rest of what you've puts this class so far out of proportion to other characters of equal level it's ridiculous.

McToomin
2012-04-10, 08:55 AM
Not sure why you seem to be so antagonistic/hostile against people who are trying to honestly evaluate your work.

My impression is just that there is way too much to keep track of in combat. I mean just look at how many things are keyed off of your ki, most at varying levels:

Does not apply if you have no ki points:
Wis bonus to AC
immune to fatigue, exhaustion, and sleep effects
resist teleportation

Does not apply if you have less than 1/4th your full ki points:
immune to ability damage and ability drain

Does not apply if you have less than 1/3rd your full ki points:
additional swift action per round
additional standard action per round
additional full round per round
(do these all stack with each other??)

Does not apply if you have less than 1/2 of your full ki points:
ignore "harsh weather" (does this include heat and cold-related effects? what about stormy seas?)
treated as any alignment
treated as having concealment

Abilities tied to your current ki point total:
dodge bonus equal to current ki/2
speed bonus equal to 5 ft. * current ki
DR equal to current ki/2
energy resistance equal to current ki
SR and PR equal to 12 + current ki (minimum 20)

Other ki-related things to remember:
5 fewer ki points when wearing armor, using a shield, etc.
1 additional ki point spent while wearing armor, using a shield, etc.
gain 2d6 hp each time you spend any ki
additional 5 feet of reach for every 5 ki you have
frenzy if you run out of ki


So yes, you gain some class features. But if you spend any of your ki points, suddenly many of your features are going to work differently or not at all, depending on how much you spend. Your dodge bonus, DR, energy resistance, SR, and PR will all be affected, and if you drop below one of the fractional amounts of ki points, you'll lose all those abilities as well.

I'm not saying you shouldn't lose some of these if you use up more than x amount of ki. What I'm saying is that too many of your abilities are tied to this complex mechanic, and it isn't unified. Each ki-related ability comes with its own amount of minimum ki remaining in order to function. That's so much to keep track of in combat. You not only have to remember everything about normal combat, but now adjust every class feature you have based on whether or not you want to use one of your class features (the ki pool). If I did play this class, I'd probably just never spend ki points so I wouldn't have to deal with all of those varying modifiers, and that's not a good sign.

I like the idea of the class, and I even like the idea of the mechanic, but I feel like right now it's just overly complex and would be a headache for anyone to actually play correctly.

Bahamut Omega
2012-04-10, 09:10 AM
I like the idea of the class, and I even like the idea of the mechanic, but I feel like right now it's just overly complex and would be a headache for anyone to actually play correctly.

An advanced understanding of integral calculus is critical to being able to use this class. :P

Phosphate
2012-04-10, 10:57 AM
One of the things I like the most about the monk is that it's one of the few core classes without any dead levels, something which irks me greatly for nearly any other core class.

It actually does: level 8, 14 and 18. 10 and 16 are technically useless too.


the rest of what you've puts this class so far out of proportion to other characters of equal level it's ridiculous.

Since it is weaker than a warblade, I would have to disagree.


Not sure why you seem to be so antagonistic/hostile against people who are trying to honestly evaluate your work.

How, precisely?


So yes, you gain some class features. But if you spend any of your ki points, suddenly many of your features are going to work differently or not at all, depending on how much you spend. Your dodge bonus, DR, energy resistance, SR, and PR will all be affected, and if you drop below one of the fractional amounts of ki points, you'll lose all those abilities as well.

Yes. I want it to work modularly. The main issue with hp is that it's dualistic: you're either fully alive and well or a crumbling pool of blood. The main issue with power points is that they are dualistic: you can either manifest or you can't. But like this, with features keyed off of a resource so that they change alongside it, it makes much more sense, and actually requires tactic.


You not only have to remember everything about normal combat, but now adjust every class feature you have based on whether or not you want to use one of your class features (the ki pool).

Yes. Hence, tactics.


If I did play this class, I'd probably just never spend ki points so I wouldn't have to deal with all of those varying modifiers, and that's not a good sign.

Which is what Hardened is for, but I don't know if everyone would do the same.

McToomin
2012-04-10, 11:59 AM
How, precisely?

You don't seem to be actually evaluating what people are saying and weighing whether what they have to say has any merit. Every point that's been brought up so far, your attitude has been "Yeah but my class is actually perfect because it's exactly what I want." If you're dead-set against changing anything, that's fine, but if that's the case don't ask people to peach, just say "Here's my monk fix, deal with it."


Yes. I want it to work modularly. The main issue with hp is that it's dualistic: you're either fully alive and well or a crumbling pool of blood. The main issue with power points is that they are dualistic: you can either manifest or you can't. But like this, with features keyed off of a resource so that they change alongside it, it makes much more sense, and actually requires tactic.

Yes. Hence, tactics.

I understand that, and like I said, I think it can work. However, having to keep track of that many different numbers in combat for no reason isn't tactics, it's poor design. If, instead of having different abilities stop working at 1/2 ki points, 1/3 ki points, 1/4 ki points, and no ki points, you instead just make all these abilities stop working at, say, 1/3 ki points, that would keep the basic philosophy you had with your design without making it needlessly complex. As it stands, you need to know the following at all times:

What 1/4 of your ki points are
What 1/3 of your ki points are
What 1/2 of your ki points are
How many ki points you currently have, which changes each time you use an ability and modifies all of the above

If you bring it down to

What 1/3 of your ki points are
and
Your current ki point total

That suddenly brings your class concept to be more tight and focused, keeping the same design and "tactics," while severely cutting down on needless bookkeeping on the part of the player.

*EDIT* You also didn't answer my other questions.

What exactly constitutes "harsh weather"? Which effects can the monk ignore (heat? cold? can the monk ignore a tornado that attempts to suck him up? does this apply to weather spells, or only natural weather?), and which ones is he subject to (stormy seas on a boat?).

And does the additional swift action, standard action, and full-round action all stack with each other? Does the monk really get two full-round actions, an additional standard, and an additional swift action each round?

Bahamut Omega
2012-04-10, 12:59 PM
I'll concede that the levels where only slow fall improvements are gained are dead, but not level 10 and 16. Those two levels combine to essentially upgrade the monk's natural weapons so that they can bypass a lot of chaotic outsiders' DR and completely ignore hardness, respectively, all without having to upgrade their natural weapons to do so. Regardless, it still has far fewer dead levels than any other core class.

I don't know what a War Blade is, but I know it's not in the core materials. What I do know is that if it's stronger than this proposed monk, then it is also unbalanced compared to the standard core classes. I'll be the first to say that several of the base core classes need a bit of work to up their power, but going too far in the other direction isn't ideal either.

Apalala
2012-04-10, 01:06 PM
Instead of comparing it to other core classes--the fighter and druid are about as far away in power as you can get--you can look at it in terms of the challenges the party will face.

The way this class is built, at level one it's going to outfight the barbarian, fighter, or paladin, and by level 6, you can kill or shut down most of the monsters at your CR in the first round. The only way for a GM to keep up would be to throw in stronger monsters...which would make everyone else in the party fall further behind.

McToomin
2012-04-10, 01:09 PM
I don't know what a War Blade is, but I know it's not in the core materials. What I do know is that if it's stronger than this proposed monk, then it is also unbalanced compared to the standard core classes.

Warblade is from Tome of Battle, which gets somewhat spell-like effects in addition to martial prowess. Some good stuff, too. However, classes like the warblade, swordsage, and crusader (the other ToB classes) are good because they get versatility, not because their abilities become "you are the best at fighting, ever."

Bahamut Omega
2012-04-10, 01:16 PM
Let me ask this instead, Phosphate: What other core class do you think has better than 50% odds of defeating the proposed monk in 1 on 1 combat?

McToomin
2012-04-10, 01:34 PM
*EDIT* The following was written in response to Bahamut, who had originally asked me the question in the preceding post, and not Phosphate. :P

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not sure if any of those classes could stand up very well to this monk. Normally, the weakness of a hand-to-hand fighting character like this one would be that, at the very least, it has to get into very close-quarters with its opponent, allowing its opponent to take ranged measures against the monk before the monk can reach them.

However, this monk has the potential to engage in unarmed combat with creatures at a distance of 30 ft. Sure you could still pluck him with arrows or spells if you start very far away, but the monk can also advance on a creature at a rate of 1080 540 ft./round and still be ready to attack, and have an additional swift action to use to boot!

Take an additional ki point at each Wonder granted, granting 27 ki points total.
-That's a normal move speed of 135 ft.
-Taking a run action double move, that's 270 ft.
-Take a second run action double move (during your second full-round action), that's another 270 ft., so 540 ft.
-The monk still has another swift action and standard action remaining from having more than 1/3 ki points remaining.

So in one round, the monk can advance 1080 540 ft. and still attack from 30 ft. away. Sure I'm assuming level 20 and taking all extra ki points, and that the monk loses AC for running, but that's the kind of thing you have to watch out for when making a class. How broken can it be?

*Edited for accuracy

Bahamut Omega
2012-04-10, 02:22 PM
Sorry about that, I'm new here and tend to use people's avatars to define them. That said, I've not gotten familiar with anyone yet.

I hadn't calculated it, but I strongly suspected the escalating speed would become an issue. Technically, based on how he wrote it, you couldn't run that speed. Regardless, when your normal move speed is faster than your run speed, it doesn't matter.

The diamond skin ability made my jaw drop. Immunity to slashing damage?! Not DR only overcome by either crushing or piercing attacks, just flat out immunity. One class feature negating 1/3 of all melee attacks in the game plus the dreaded vorpal weapon upgrade as well is just broken. So very, very broken.

In other news, I view the monk as written in the core rules was intended to be a caster killer. Their boosts to speed, getting the best saves, bonuses for various saves, natural spell resistance, evasion, etc. and their lack of a good armor class for melee but decent touch AC all makes for a caster's worst nightmare. That said, I think there were two things that needed to be added to make the whole shebang complete. First, a means to detect invisible characters. Blind sense out to 30' as a mid to upper level class ability would be awesome. Secondly, monsters that use spells notably more effectively than they melee.

There's a couple of monsters that can do both, but often once the fight gets to the melee range, they stay there and start swinging. More monsters whose main means of attacking is spell casting would find their days rightly ruined by a core monk. Sure a Solar could use their standard action to cast a spell, or they could loose their dancing greatsword to keep you at bay and pelt you with slaying arrows.

McToomin
2012-04-10, 03:09 PM
Oh I see what you mean about the speed. Still, 540 ft. with a standard action remaining isn't exactly shabby, especially when that standard can be used to fight from 30 ft. away. That's better range than a 3rd-level long range spell, and it's usable at will.

Bahamut Omega
2012-04-10, 03:23 PM
Oh I see what you mean about the speed. Still, 540 ft. with a standard action remaining isn't exactly shabby, especially when that standard can be used to fight from 30 ft. away. That's better range than a 3rd-level long range spell, and it's usable at will.

It's better than a long range spell that's been enlarged.