Unusual Idea - Multiples of the Same Power

[Nero24200]

The Background: After looking at the sorcerer class from the PHB2 I began statting up one for a campaign. I decided to make one focused on fire-based spells (since this class seemed to have more variety in the elemental spells compared to PHB1 classes). However there aren't enough fire-based spells to fill all of my encounter/daily slots. That when an idea hit me.

The Idea/Question: How would allowing characters to learn multiples of the same powers affect the game? For instance, instead of learning say...2 different encounter powers (each one usable once per encounter) you choose to learn a single power twice (allowing you only a single power but the ability to use it twice per encounter). The idea is similer to 3.5 spellcasters in that they can prepare multiples of the same spell to cast it more often.

At first glance I can only see problems with At-Will and certain Utility Powers (so I'm likely to only consider this for Encounter/Daily Powers).

How would something like this affect the game? Will this affect balance in a way I'm not seeing? I have very little experience with 4E so I can see myself missing any obvious problems with this idea very easily.

[Reluctance]

Certain powers - I'm looking at you, Sleep - are just asking to be abused. That's an issue with specific powers, though, not with the concept. Assuming that power design were flawless (or that players could be trusted to all aim for the same optimization benchmark), it wouldn't cause much trouble.

It does look like it'll run into the Twin Strike problem, though. Workable, but boring. You'd be much better served trying to tweak an existing power to run off of Fire than to stock up on multiple instances of one thing.

[incandescent]

It's not unprecedented in a way. The first time i remember seeing the ability to get the same power twice was with the Adroit Explorer human paragon path when PHB 2 came out. If i recall correctly, the daily power also gave you an additional use of your power with an added bonus. As Reluctance mentioned, the things you're likely to run into are character homogenity and power abuse.

[Kurald Galain]

The Idea/Question: How would allowing characters to learn multiples of the same powers affect the game?

First, many powers are balanced based on the idea that you can only use them so-and-so often. Sleep is a good example, but there are many more: for example, classes aren't supposed to have more than one encounter power that stuns..

Second, although this is just an opinion, the game would become more boring, because you end up doing the same thing more often.

What I would recommend is (1) Envision a "flame mage" as a mage that uses mostly fire spells, not one that only uses fire spells ever. This will also help should you ever encounter an enemy immune to or retaliating to fire. (2) There are numerous ways to turn spells into fire, such as using a Sun Staff as your implement. (3) Take an at-will spell that uses fire, and take as many feats as you can that boost that spell; use this as your default, and focus on minor- or immediate-action encounter powers.

[WickerNipple]

The Sentinel is a class already built around this concept, and a lot of its detractors point to this as a cause. Granted, in that case, it's because you don't have a choice of power.

In reality this rule would be very quickly abused. Why yes! I do have 3 uses of Hail of Steel. Why do you ask?? :smalltongue:

If a player really desperately wanted this for flavor reasons and the power wouldn't completely dominate encounters I might allow it ~ but I'd want them to exhaust all the options presented above first.

[NecroRebel]

An issue: what about feats and other things that modify specific powers? For instance, Arcane Admixture, which adds a damage type to a specific spell. Do you get the benefit of the feat on a single copy of the duplicated power, or on all of them? Getting it on only one would be more like how it works on other classes, but raises the issue of how you know which copy you've used, while gaining the benefit on every copy of the power makes the feat far stronger than it's meant to be (assuming you're making good use of the added keyword).

[inexorabletruth]

It's strictly banned in the rules for a reason. If your DM wants to house rule it in, go with god. But I think that turning your character into an unbalanced OP one-trick pony kind of defeats the intent of the 4E system.

PHB, pg. 27:
"At most levels, you gain access to a new power. You can take each power only once (you can’t choose the same power multiple times)."

[tcrudisi]

A Sorcerer with 3 uses of Flame Spiral every encounter?

Yes, there are issues there.

[Uruz2012]

I might suggest house ruling that another ability does fire damage rather than what is stated in the power. For example: Chaos Bolt (PHB2) becomes Fire Bolt... Same damage but fire instead of psychic, attack becomes vs reflex rather than will.

I say this because we had a wizard who wanted to specialize in acid damage. He took Scorching Burst (PHB1) and turned it into Acid Burst and made Burning Hands (PHB1) into Acid Spray. It worked pretty well and didn't unbalance the game at all.

[Silma]

Instead of doing any of that, you could try playing a fire Elementalist Sorcerer. It's in heroes of the Elemental Chaos.

If that's not an option, then what Uruz2012 said is probably your best bet. Pick a moderate to good encounter power of a different element and just change the damage to fire, the defense it targets to reflex (or in some race cases fortitude) and change the keyword to fire. Make sure not to pick the best power on every single level and just make it a fire power, cuz that would be a little OP. Try to pick the one that fits most.

[SirWolf312]

Or you could do is associate another element with fire (like lightning in Avatar the last Airbender). That way you can have a full spell list, variety in powers, and still have the firemage that you want.

[wayfare]

I have a campaign built around this idea, but it is doomed to failure without restraint. Not all powers are balanced very well for their level.

Playing an elementalist sorcerer is not a bad idea, but if you want to go the multipel powers route, my advice is to brew up your own powers and let the group decide on their use.