Alex mercer vs 3.5 wizard

[Harry]

A wizard is sent to kill Alex mercer he has 3 days prep he is a wizard10/incantatrix10 he is allowed to use game mechanics and fluff the same goes for alex who wins? For multiple opinions I am also posting this on naruto forum http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?p=42705964#post42705964

[Fan]

Wizard 10 / Incantarix 10?

A little sub optimal, but I'll give it to him easily, Scry + Teleport + Twinned Invisible Avasculate (Automatic Halving of HP no Save on each. Reduces him to 1/4th of his health twinned.) then Maximized Empowered Quickened Maw of Chaos, he gets stun locked, and the rest is orbs of force.

Game.

[Selrahc]

Wizard 10 / Incantarix 10?

A little sub optimal, but I'll give it to him easily, Scry + Teleport + Twinned Invisible Avasculate (Automatic Halving of HP no Save on each. Reduces him to 1/4th of his health twinned.) then Maximized Empowered Quickened Maw of Chaos, he gets stun locked, and the rest is orbs of force.

Game.

I would bet heavily that "Alex Mercer" has a wide range of immunities. Since really, he is more like a writhing blob of protoplasmic goo than an organism. Avasculate for example, is fluffed as the collapse of bones. Which Mercer doesn't have.

The Wizard is *going* to win in some fashion, due to the hypothetical question breaking Celerity, coupled with Time Stop and the wide array of spells available... but most common methods will not work. And if Mercer ever got to attack, he could probably instantly wipe out the wizard.

Also, metamagic reducers reducing a spell below its original level is a realllllllly stupid ruling. No metamagic should carry any rating below +0, no matter if it's an arcane thesis or whatever.

[Tavar]

Hmm...well, there are the various insta-kill effects such as disintegrate, or the spell that summons a miniature sphere of annihilation.

Also, summons, such as gating in a Solar, could be very effective. And isn't Mercer weak to water, or something? If so, summoning an elemental titan, or simply an elemental, might be a winning strategy.

[Harry]

For people that don't know Alex mercer here a list of abilities http://outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+Alex+Mercer

[Fredaintdead]

And isn't Mercer weak to water, or something? If so, summoning an elemental titan, or simply an elemental, might be a winning strategy.

I don't think he is. In the game, if you get knocked into water then you just immediately jump back out onto land with no consequences. There were special Anti-Mercer weapons developed (Bloodtox chemicals designed specifically to debilitate and kill infected), but after prolonged exposure he becomes nigh-immune to them.

[Fan]

I would bet heavily that "Alex Mercer" has a wide range of immunities. Since really, he is more like a writhing blob of protoplasmic goo than an organism. Avasculate for example, is fluffed as the collapse of bones. Which Mercer doesn't have.

The Wizard is *going* to win in some fashion, due to the hypothetical question breaking Celerity, coupled with Time Stop and the wide array of spells available... but most common methods will not work. And if Mercer ever got to attack, he could probably instantly wipe out the wizard.

Also, metamagic reducers reducing a spell below its original level is a realllllllly stupid ruling. No metamagic should carry any rating below +0, no matter if it's an arcane thesis or whatever.

Avasculate as far as I've seen is a purging of blood from the body, which is almost specifically Mercer's source of power (He absorbs blood from people, etc.) if anything it'd be MORE effective against him, completely draining his meters and forcing him back to beginning of game status unless he can find someone else to absorb.

So...

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm sorry this is not a match because "wizard10/incantatrix10" is not a character.

It is a type that implies a huge range where extreme specifics matter. What is their specific build down to spell choices. And what level of pure cheese rule abuse is allowed. Because right now everything from a relatively tame evocation focused direct damage dealer... to this...

Lizard Familiar + Shapechange to Sarrruhk = You Should Know The Rest

... is currently within the scope of this challenge. So its obviously completely possible to build something that can triumph, but that's utterly meaningless at the same time because its just an exercise in how ridiculous D&D rules can be twisted into being.

[Prime32]

Eh, you need more than "big and strong" to defeat an lv20 D&D wizard. The tarrasque probably has him outclassed, let alone someone who can trap his soul, send him to another dimension, or turn him into a newt. If the wizard is incorporeal does Mercer have any way of harming him? Heck, what would happen if you cast remove disease on Mercer? :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Eh, you need more than "big and strong" to defeat an lv20 D&D wizard. I can see the tarrasque defeating Mercer, let alone someone who can trap his soul, send him to another dimension, or turn him into a newt. If the wizard is incorporeal does Mercer have any way of harming him? Heck, what would happen if you cast remove disease on Mercer? :smalltongue:

http://img.math-fail.com/images-old/divide-by-zero8.jpg

[Harry]

I'm sorry this is not a match because "wizard10/incantatrix10" is not a character.

It is a type that implies a huge range where extreme specifics matter. What is their specific build down to spell choices. And what level of pure cheese rule abuse is allowed. Because right now everything from a relatively tame evocation focused direct damage dealer... to this...

Lizard Familiar + Shapechange to Sarrruhk = You Should Know The Rest

... is currently within the scope of this challenge. So its obviously completely possible to build something that can triumph, but that's utterly meaningless at the same time because its just an exercise in how ridiculous D&D rules can be twisted into being.

He's a 20 level wizard with 3 days prep he can have any spells you want and the school banned can be any you want also let's... Say he's a generalist

[Soras Teva Gee]

Eh, you need more than "big and strong" to defeat an lv20 D&D wizard. I can see the tarrasque defeating Mercer, let alone someone who can trap his soul, send him to another dimension, or turn him into a newt. If the wizard is incorporeal does Mercer have any way of harming him? Heck, what would happen if you cast remove disease on Mercer? :smalltongue:

You mean this Remove Disease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeDisease.htm)? I won't be surprised if there's a way to get that on an arcane list but does this hypothetical wizard have it? And also Remove Disease isn't always effective both in allowing Fort saves and leaving a loophole for "special diseases" in it. Does an advanced modern retrovirus apply under that, its an open question yes? But back to the wizard, what do they have?

This is to me is like asking whether [X] can beat a US Marine?

Sure that might sound alright at first but isn't meaningful without more information. Is this an Infantryman in full combat gear? A sniper, EOD, or maybe a spec ops guy? Just an MP/guard with just a pistol? Or maybe a Harrier pilot in their jet with a full tank of fuel and loaded for bear?


He's a 20 level wizard with 3 days prep he can have any spells you want and the school banned can be any you want also let's... Say he's a generalist

You're missing the point.... so I field Pun-Pun and travel the planes and time to erase this question from even being asked.

[Harry]

You mean this Remove Disease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeDisease.htm)? I won't be surprised if there's a way to get that on an arcane list but does this hypothetical wizard have it? And also Remove Disease isn't always effective both in allowing Fort saves and leaving a loophole for "special diseases" in it. Does an advanced modern retrovirus apply under that, its an open question yes? But back to the wizard, what do they have?

This is to me is like asking whether [X] can beat a US Marine?

Sure that might sound alright at first but isn't meaningful without more information. Is this an Infantryman in full combat gear? A sniper, EOD, or maybe a spec ops guy? Just an MP/guard with just a pistol? Or maybe a Harrier pilot in their jet with a full tank of fuel and loaded for bear?



You're missing the point.... so I field Pun-Pun and travel the planes and time to erase this question from even being asked.

Jeez ok then make him abuse persistent spell or make him a mail man the question was if there was ANY way using a wizards abilities to beat Alex mercer with a wizard and it seems like the answer is yes

[Eldan]

Easily.

The strongest possible D&D wizard is Pun-pun. He travels back in Time a million years and gives himself an EX ability reading "Alex Mercer can never exist, ever."

That is now a new rule of the universe, the wizard wins.

Alternatively? Reverse gravity. Time Stop. Sending him to hell. Forcecage with no holes. Ripping out his soul. These are all standard spells.

[General Patton]

Eh, you need more than "big and strong" to defeat an lv20 D&D wizard. The tarrasque probably has him outclassed, let alone someone who can trap his soul, send him to another dimension, or turn him into a newt. If the wizard is incorporeal does Mercer have any way of harming him? Heck, what would happen if you cast remove disease on Mercer? :smalltongue:

The Cancer Mage from the Book of Vile Deeds has the ability to become a disease and jump into someone's body. That ability specifically states that the casting of Remove Disease instantly kills the Cancer Mage (no save?, can't remember). This gives us some basis for assuming that emulating the spell with Limited Wish or Wish is an instant victory.

[Moglorosh]

I like how there are two suggestions to rip the soul out of an anthropomorphic virus.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Jeez ok then make him abuse persistent spell or make him a mail man the question was if there was ANY way using a wizards abilities to beat Alex mercer with a wizard and it seems like the answer is yes

Yeah but here's the thing there is nothing that can stand against a broadly stated level 20 caster from a game mechanics standpoint. Because as noted Pun-Pun Insta-Win.

At the same time lets not forget that all the best cheese exists only as a exercise in Rules Lawyering, which is all fundamentally invalid because of Rule Zero. Nobody plays Pun-Pun and its equally fully valid to say that he (and anything else) is absolutely impossible because the game rules are non-existent in (most) actual settings just mere book keeping suggestions and ways to introduce "fair" chance. So the actual spells and abilities will not work in the same ways nessecarily.

Actual stories and characters exist only in fluff, how mechanics intersect with fluff is an open question. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation) Especially when talking about different sets of mechanics like here.

Long story short: Don't match [Lvl 20 Character] match say V or Xykon that represent actual specific choices and have a discrete story and power, not just a perfectly select batch of optimization from all the possible choices offered by a game system.

[erikun]

And isn't Mercer weak to water, or something?
I believe you're thinking Cole MacGrath from Infamous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infamous_(video_game)), rather than Alex Mercer from Prototype (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype_(video_game)). Similar games with similar themes released about the same time, so it's likely a common mistake.

That said, we're talking about what is basically a high-level binder against a high-level wizard, if I understand the character correctly. I certanly believe that Mr. Mercer could kill a wizard under the right situations, but a wizard specifically build to hunt down and kill Mr. Mercer would almost certainly succeed.

As others have pointed out, though, an actual character rather than "level 20 wizard" would make more sense. That way, you could actually have two power sets and two strategies to compare - this way, you're basically asking "Would it be possible to create a 20th level spellcaster that could kill this specific character?" (The answer is always yes.)

[gooddragon1]

Easily.

The strongest possible D&D wizard is Pun-pun. He travels back in Time a million years and gives himself an EX ability reading "Alex Mercer can never exist, ever."

That is now a new rule of the universe, the wizard wins.

Alternatively? Reverse gravity. Time Stop. Sending him to hell. Forcecage with no holes. Ripping out his soul. These are all standard spells.

I'll go with this. The wizard casts shapechange, becomes a sarrukh, starts the pun-pun routine. Ends up with an ability called: I Win. (This being because the sarrukh can grant an ability. That's exactly what it says. Grants an ability. Make an ability that does whatever you want. His abilities are limited only by the creativity of the player.)

[Killer Angel]

For people that don't know Alex mercer here a list of abilities http://outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+Alex+Mercer

His offensive capabilities are mostly phisical (the kind of things a competent wizard ceases to worry about since mid levels).

[Harry]

Yeah but here's the thing there is nothing that can stand against a broadly stated level 20 caster from a game mechanics standpoint. Because as noted Pun-Pun Insta-Win.

At the same time lets not forget that all the best cheese exists only as a exercise in Rules Lawyering, which is all fundamentally invalid because of Rule Zero. Nobody plays Pun-Pun and its equally fully valid to say that he (and anything else) is absolutely impossible because the game rules are non-existent in (most) actual settings just mere book keeping suggestions and ways to introduce "fair" chance. So the actual spells and abilities will not work in the same ways nessecarily.

Actual stories and characters exist only in fluff, how mechanics intersect with fluff is an open question. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation) Especially when talking about different sets of mechanics like here.

Long story short: Don't match [Lvl 20 Character] match say V or Xykon that represent actual specific choices and have a discrete story and power, not just a perfectly select batch of optimization from all the possible choices offered by a game system.

.... I have played pun pun before and I have played the war hulking hurler before i even played the The Mortiverse all in serious campaigns even if it doesn't have fluff or it's "too strong" it's still completely use able the reason I made it so open was I wanted variety from the playground and I expected everyone NOT to call pun pun

[Soras Teva Gee]

.... I have played pun pun before and I have played the war hulking hurler before i even played the The Mortiverse all in serious campaigns even if it doesn't have fluff or it's "too strong" it's still completely use able the reason I made it so open was I wanted variety from the playground and I expected everyone NOT to call pun pun

And you did precisely what with your invincible deity? Pretend you were being challenged? Or was this you and the DM dueling reality warping?

If you want creativity then don't pose the question "who would win" and expect anything but the most overwhelming way to do that. Asking how many builds can accomplish [X] task is really different question.

Also "even if it doesn't have fluff" suggests you do not understand the nature of game mechanics. You cannot duel pure game mechanics, they are merely conveniences of arbitration to introduce chance beyond one persons fiat. Any two different systems however make it a case of apples and oranges. You can only have match ups from different systems in fluff, because that's where mere bookkeeping conveniences meet as something like reality.

[The_Final_Stand]

Interesting thing is, Mercer is extraordinarily dangerous, not just in close combat, but also as a stealthy force. He's not going to show up in a hoodie once he learns that an absurdly powerful wizard is gunning for him. Which will be as soon as he discovers the existance of absurdly powerful wizards.

He's going to be stealthy. Integrate himself into a community i.e. eat someone, whereupon he learns everything about that person and becomes capable of mimicing them effortlessly. Probably infect the populace a bit. This is with a virus that devoured a significant portion of a major city in 18 days. Move about a lot, take new people as an identity, try to find who the strongest/smartest are, and get close enough to consume them. Then make use of any useful items they had on them or knew the location of.

Such a character you have described (Epic Wizard) will be almost certainly known of by everyone. Mercer will avoid him at all costs. Stick to crowded areas. Escape when necessary. And he is fast. Capable of gliding under his own power and running up buildings.

I'm not sure how scrying would work on Mercer, if at all. His genetic makeup changes just about every time he consumes someone. It's worth noting he has some vision powers as well, both thermal and infected.

Things that may be fatal to living beings aren't so much to him. See: takes a bullet to the head for infiltration purposes, missing a significant portion of his head he is not inconvenienced in the slightest. The guy was nuked and rebuilt himself from a crow for goodness sakes.

... It has just occured to me that Mercer would be an awesome villain for a campaign.

[Prime32]

I'm not sure how scrying would work on Mercer, if at all. His genetic makeup changes just about every time he consumes someone. It's worth noting he has some vision powers as well, both thermal and infected.Scrying works just fine on shapechangers (as does locate creature). And if he's infecting people, the wizard could use one of them as a focus to make the scrying harder to resist. Heck, he could just cast a sympathy spell keyed to Mercer, subconsciously compelling him to travel to a location of the wizard's choice.

Also, the wizard could use true seeing or otherwise scan for transmutation effects/aberrations.

[ThirdEmperor]

Whether or not Alex wins depends solely upon whether or not the wizard after him is the only wizard. Because yeah, a level 20 wizard could kill the Alex Mercer seen in the game Prototype or at the very least put him out of action forever. Planeshifts, ethereality, a bombardment of Locate City bombs followed up by a Wish to keep him dead, perhaps even something as simple as a Cure Disease depending on the interpretation of how that spell works....

But that level 20 wizard won't be fighting the Alex Mercer from Prototype. He'll be fighting an Alex Mercer from a world where wizards exist. And that makes all the difference.

Among Alex Mercer's greatest talents is the ability to absorb skills from the minds of his victims. He can learn to drive a tank, fire an assault rifle with amazing accuracy, any learned skill, as long as he's provided with the proper diet. Wizardy is a learned skill and the Illithid Savant class from Savage Species having already provided precedence that magic can be absorbed in such a manner.

Long story short, by the time that Lv. 20 superwizard's finished his three days of preparation, Alex is already well on his way to being an epic spellcaster himself, starting with level fives or so and munching his way up the wizardly food chain with the help of his new magic powers.

[The Glyphstone]

Whether or not Alex wins depends solely upon whether or not the wizard after him is the only wizard. Because yeah, a level 20 wizard could kill the Alex Mercer seen in the game Prototype or at the very least put him out of action forever. Planeshifts, ethereality, a bombardment of Locate City bombs followed up by a Wish to keep him dead, perhaps even something as simple as a Cure Disease depending on the interpretation of how that spell works....

But that level 20 wizard won't be fighting the Alex Mercer from Prototype. He'll be fighting an Alex Mercer from a world where wizards exist. And that makes all the difference.

Among Alex Mercer's greatest talents is the ability to absorb skills from the minds of his victims. He can learn to drive a tank, fire an assault rifle with amazing accuracy, any learned skill, as long as he's provided with the proper diet. Wizardy is a learned skill and the Illithid Savant class from Savage Species having already provided precedence that magic can be absorbed in such a manner.

Long story short, by the time that Lv. 20 superwizard's finished his three days of preparation, Alex is already well on his way to being an epic spellcaster himself, starting with level fives or so and munching his way up the wizardly food chain with the help of his new magic powers.

That is important, yeah. Is Alex Mercer brought to the D&D world, or is the Wizard brought to the Prototype world?

[pffh]

... It has just occured to me that Mercer would be an awesome villain for a campaign.

Indeed and now I kinda want to see what the virus' 3.5 stats would look like.