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toapat
2012-04-16, 07:57 PM
This is an attempt to make a elves worth playing:


High Elf

Personality: All elves move with a grace and composure slightly superior to that of the average peasent. Elves are typically friendly, but they more often gravitate to other elves as their long lifespan makes friendship difficult for all but the most accepting of elves. Elves have lofty views on sexuality and relationships.

Physical Description: Elves are on average about 6" shorter then the average human. They have skin color ranging from pale blue to rich periwinkle. They have very long and tall pointed ears. Their hair color ranges from most commonly a shade of aqua, with some elves having bright blue hair. Purple hair is rare among elves.

Relations: Elves get along well with humans, halflings, and gnomes. Their relationship with Dwarves though is situational. Elves who have lived in massive population centers their entire lives find dwarves to be stoic, if rather poorly spoken friends. Woodland elves though detest dwarves, seeing dwarves as enemies of the land. All elves despise Orcs.

Alignment: Elves very much enjoy freedom, leading them to lean more towards chaos then towards law. High elves typically enjoy life as it is, leaning them towards good.

Elven Lands: High Elves live in cities and forests, forming small communities or blending with the local populous. Elves occationally will form small states, although they rarely last more then an elven lifetime as the leader who the elves united under defers to advisors, or when they die of old age.

Religion: Most High elves worship the Deity Corellon Larethian, while a smaller number worship his daughter Eilistraee.

Language: Elves typically know Common and Elvish, although they may also learn languages in their travels.

Adventurers: Most elves will at some point in their life go on a journey from home as a result of prolonged boredom. On this journey, an elf may take up the mantle of the Adventurer and see where their employer's wallets lead them. Rarely do Elves ever take up a life of permanent adventure though, as their love of freedom and the adventurer's life of contracts conflict.

High elven Racial Traits:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution
Humanoid (Elf)
Medium: As Medium creatures, high elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
High Elf base land speed is 30 feet
Trance: Elves do not sleep, but instead enter meditive trances in which they recall their past. As a result, elves are immune to sleep effects, both mundane and magical. An elf only needs to trance for 4 hours in order to become well rested.
Precise Hearing: An elf's hearing is honed to a razor edge. An elf who makes an active Listen check need only beat an invisible foe's Move Silently check to pinpoint their location. Furthermore, in such a situation, the elf suffers no miss chance due to concealment.
Spell Resistance: A High elf has spell resistance equal to 4+Class levels. This Spell resistance increases to 7+class levels at lvl 10, and to 10+ class levels at 20.
Two Weapon Memories: Elves have long favored fighting with two weapons in melee, and it shows in a primal recognition of the art. Elves gain +2 to attack bonus while wielding multiple weapons. If an elf has a Base attack bonus of over 10, they treat both hands as though they were the elf's primary hand.
Elven Overdraw: Ancestral links to the bow grant greater understanding of the weapon to elves. Elves know how to overdraw any bow, and can make the arrows dance through the air: Elves may add their strength modifier to the damage of any type of bow.
Weapon Proficiency: High elves are proficient with Longswords, Rapiers, Scimitars, Longbows (Including Composite Longbows), and with Shortbows (Including Composite Shortbows).
+2 racial bonus on Listen checks.

Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
Favored Class: Ranger or Sorcerer
LA +0




High Elf Random Starting Ages
{table=head]Adulthood|Simple|Moderate|Complex
110 years|+4d6|+6d6|+10d6[/table]

High Elf Aging Effects
{table=head]Middle Age|Old Age|Venerable|Maximume Age

175 years|263 years|350 years|+4d% years[/table]

High Elf random Height and Weight
{table=head]Gender|Base Height|Height Modifier|Base Weight|Weight Modifier

Male|4 5|+2d6|85 lb.| (1d6) lb.

Female|4 5|+2d6|80 lb.| (1d6) lb.[/table]

toapat
2012-04-16, 07:58 PM
Drow

Personality: If elves are personable, then Drow are complete monsters. Drow hold contempt for any race that is sentient enough to not bow before them.

Physical Description: Drow are on average about 6" shorter then the average elf. They have skin color ranging from dark blue to midnight. Their long pointed ears poke through hair of pearly white or light blue, while rust red eyes sparkle as gems in their faces.

Relations: Humans check their beds for Orcs, Orcs check their beds for Devils, Devils check their beds for Drow. The drow are universally feared, as they have gained repute as great and terrible warriors who despoil the land and defile the lives they come across. Legend tells of a Drow invasion of Baator that continues to this day without contact with the drow homelands.

Alignment: The Drow of stories are nightmarish beings who rise from the earth, clad in obsidian garb and dedicated in its systemic destruction of hope. The stories are highly accurate, as drow are ruthless in their lust for power, allying themselves with the powerful and assassinating those they cant not. Those unfortunate enough to be shown mercy in combat find themselves quickly enslaved to work endless hours without rest, food, or the mercies of death. Drow are Lawful Evil

Drow Lands: The drow nation sits in the heart of a dormant volcano, tamed by their ambitions, and is ruled by the matriarchal Priesthood of Lolth. The chamber echos with the terror of imprisoned slaves and the exaulation of ritual sacrifices to Lolth.

Religion: Drow worship the black goddess Lolth, Spiderqueen.

Language: Drow typically know Common, Undercommon, and Drow Sign Language. The drow learn the languages of their slaves to strike greater terror in the hearts of those who carry the burdens of the drow.

Adventurers: Drow are divided into two groups: Those who form the black host, and the few drow who are not incarnations of pure malevolence. The few adventurers that are drow work hard to conceal their race, moving constantly to avoid identification, for it is only time before the black host rises to slay such a rebel.

Drow Racial Traits:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, +2 Intellect
Humanoid (Elf)
Small: As a Small creature, a drow gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
Drow base land speed is 30 feet
Fast Healing 8
Untiring: Drow have no need for rest. What takes other races 8 hours, a drow instead focuses their contempt on for one. Drow are immune to magical sleep effects.
Blindsight 180
Spell Resistance: A Drow has spell resistance equal to 8+Class levels. This Spell resistance increases to 11+class levels at lvl 10, and to 15+ class levels at 20.
Weapon Proficiency: Drow are proficient with Rapiers, Scimitars, Shortswords, and all crossbows.
Feared Across the Land: While even abyssals and infernals can blend into society, Drow can not. A Drow is always treated as being hostile to towns and cities they first visit, and often will have bounties placed against them if they can not garner a positive reputation.

Automatic Languages: Common, Undercommon, Drow Sign Language. Bonus Languages: Any.
Favored Class: Wizard (Male) or Cleric (Female)
LA +3


Drow Random Starting Ages
{table=head]Adulthood|Simple|Moderate|Complex
110 years|+4d6|+6d6|+10d6[/table]

Drow Aging Effects
{table=head]Middle Age|Old Age|Venerable|Maximume Age

175 years|263 years|350 years|+4d% years[/table]

Drow random Height and Weight
{table=head]Gender|Base Height|Height Modifier|Base Weight|Weight Modifier

Male|3 9|+2d6|85 lb.| (1d6) lb.

Female|3 9|+2d6|80 lb.| (1d6) lb.[/table]

Apalala
2012-04-16, 08:07 PM
So +2 charisma, innate spell resistance, blindsight 60, and extra weapon proficiencies.

...reminds me of the katana copy pasta.

Amechra
2012-04-16, 08:13 PM
Eh, still wouldn't play it; it still feels incredibly bland.

toapat
2012-04-16, 08:18 PM
So +2 charisma, innate spell resistance, blindsight 60, and extra weapon proficiencies.

...reminds me of the katana copy pasta.

ive learned that weapon proficiencies don't really matter as much as people are giving them credit for, so long as you dont give someone Falcata proficiency, considering a Falcata is 1d8 19-20/x3, making it one of the most powerful melee weapons possible

Empedocles
2012-04-16, 08:38 PM
Alright, you said PEACH, so I'm going to be honest. Brutally honest. However, I also hope to provide feedback that will also help you improve upon this design.

This race...doesn't do much for me. The flavor is shallow, and what I'm getting is something like the Tolkien Rivendale elves (hope I got that name right). A bunch of fairies singing and dancing in the valleys, very chaotic. That's just an impression, based largely on filler my own mind has provided. The fluff isn't really deep enough. If you want to redesign a race, you have to start with a concept, and starting with a concept means starting with fluff. The fluff here all feels extremely tacked on, like an afterthought that doesn't do much for me.

Now...the mechanics are a bit tricky here. The ability modifiers are cool...but you don't do anything to back it up. That goes back to the issues with fluff though.

Blindsight...why?

Spell Resistance: It's hard to explain but...this doesn't do enough for the elf. It doesn't flesh them out, or give them substance. It's another entry in the back of the DMG that can get thrown on some stuff.

Everything else is classic elf.

The issue with the mechanics isn't so much what you've added/included, but more what is lacking. Basically, anything to give the elves an identity that's reinforced through their mechanics.

Minor bonuses. Are these magical elves? Enough to warrant a +2 bonus to spellcraft? Do they dance from tree to tree, singing lost songs of ancient valor? +2 to Perform then? This elf didn't really get any substance...it just got a slight improvement.

toapat
2012-04-16, 08:52 PM
Alright, you said PEACH, so I'm going to be honest. Brutally honest. However, I also hope to provide feedback that will also help you improve upon this design.

This race...doesn't do much for me. The flavor is shallow, and what I'm getting is something like the Tolkien Rivendale elves (hope I got that name right). A bunch of fairies singing and dancing in the valleys, very chaotic. That's just an impression, based largely on filler my own mind has provided. The fluff isn't really deep enough. If you want to redesign a race, you have to start with a concept, and starting with a concept means starting with fluff. The fluff here all feels extremely tacked on, like an afterthought that doesn't do much for me.

Now...the mechanics are a bit tricky here. The ability modifiers are cool...but you don't do anything to back it up. That goes back to the issues with fluff though.

Blindsight...why?

Spell Resistance: It's hard to explain but...this doesn't do enough for the elf. It doesn't flesh them out, or give them substance. It's another entry in the back of the DMG that can get thrown on some stuff.

Everything else is classic elf.

The issue with the mechanics isn't so much what you've added/included, but more what is lacking. Basically, anything to give the elves an identity that's reinforced through their mechanics.

Minor bonuses. Are these magical elves? Enough to warrant a +2 bonus to spellcraft? Do they dance from tree to tree, singing lost songs of ancient valor? +2 to Perform then? This elf didn't really get any substance...it just got a slight improvement.

the problem with flavoring a core and common race is that their fluff ends up being very, very minimal, because of how many places you have to allow them to be able to be stuck. i made them blue mostly to balance off the drow, which i dont have time today to build out.

I also can see how you made the connection with tolkien elves: these guys are more highly magical, although i didnt give them Timeless Body or limitless life, again, this is a flavor issue, that can be corrected by better defining them, except that elves get defined by campaign.

Blindsight i just didnt know where i could stick the justification, so it goes here: Elves hear exceptionally well, and are able to discern the location of creatures around them. I was also considering giving them Flanking immunity so long as they can track the target with Blindsight

Minor Bonuses: i changed the FC from Wiz to sorc because it fit better with the attribute modifiers.

the objective was to increase playability anyway, not to add flavor

yes, yes, i know i said Fun>Balance in a PM.

Empedocles
2012-04-16, 08:57 PM
the problem with flavoring a core and common race is that their fluff ends up being very, very minimal, because of how many places you have to allow them to be able to be stuck. i made them blue mostly to balance off the drow, which i dont have time today to build out.

I also can see how you made the connection with tolkien elves: these guys are more highly magical, although i didnt give them Timeless Body or limitless life, again, this is a flavor issue, that can be corrected by better defining them, except that elves get defined by campaign.

Blindsight i just didnt know where i could stick the justification, so it goes here: Elves hear exceptionally well, and are able to discern the location of creatures around them. I was also considering giving them Flanking immunity so long as they can track the target with Blindsight

Minor Bonuses: i changed the FC from Wiz to sorc because it fit better with the attribute modifiers.

the objective was to increase playability anyway, not to add flavor

yes, yes, i know i said Fun>Balance in a PM.

See, the issue with what you're doing though is that although you're making the elf more playable, you're not making me want to play it any more then I did with the sucky core elf.

Now, I'd advise you to take my advice with a grain of salt because I'm currently designing my own elf re-write and I therefore have already thought out what I personally feel is the best path to take.

That being said, this really just needs a bit more...flesh. As is, it's no more interesting then the core elf or a gnome.

toapat
2012-04-16, 09:05 PM
or a gnome.

*Manditory Gnome football joke*

ill get to it when i have time, fleshing out a CG race is alot harder then the LE drow im going to have.

I figured you already were doing that.

Edit: Adding in Two weapon boost

Ursus the Grim
2012-04-16, 09:18 PM
the problem with flavoring a core and common race is that their fluff ends up being very, very minimal, because of how many places you have to allow them to be able to be stuck. i made them blue mostly to balance off the drow, which i dont have time today to build out..

But by definition this isn't core. The people using this know exactly what they're going to be doing with it. Specifically you and your players, who know the campaign. The fluff of your homebrew should be the part where you get to have fun and pitch your improved race to us with spifftastic descriptions that make you want to play the race, and not just from an optimization standpoint.

That being said, I'm not sure what benchmark you are using for 'playability'. As it stands, I think this is on par, if not slightly stronger than core humans, which in broad terms, is often better than any other core race in terms of 'playability'. I wouldn't let a player use it in my campaign for the following reasons, which I'm sure you're going to dispute.

Mental bonuses are extremely dangerous. See how none of the core races have it? That's because its incredibly easy to break low, heck even high level casting without them. A level 1 Venerable Elf here could easily have 23 charisma. That's huge, and that's just working with this and core. Sure, the constitution might hurt, but you made them 5% less likely to be hit with that Dex bonus. . . which also applies to ray spells, reflex saves, and a myriad of skillchecks.

Blindsight is ridiculous. Its a rare ability, and for good reason. It negates gaze, blinding, deafening, displacement, invisibility, and concealment of all kinds. 60 feet is far enough to detect nearly anything before being endangered in a typical dungeon crawl. Not to mention it's a pain for the DM to track exactly what reaches within that radius, even if its on the other side of a 30 foot stone wall. By nature of it being blindsight, I think it would foil even move silently automatically. Giving it flanking immunity basically gives the elf half of Heavy Fortification.

Spell-Resistance, is reasonable at first glance, but quickly gets out of hand. SR 35 is not something a 20th level character should have for free. That means your average Balor has to roll a 15 or higher, and the ever-feared Great Wyrms need at least a 16. Might I point out that a creature with SR can choose to lower it at will, meaning there is no drawback and the Healing clause probably isn't actually needed for your intention.

And for the cherry on top of the sundae, I generally stick to the +2/-2 rule when working with LA 0 3.5 races. But that's subject to change.

toapat
2012-04-16, 11:07 PM
That being said, I'm not sure what benchmark you are using for 'playability'. As it stands, I think this is on par, if not slightly stronger than core humans, which in broad terms, is often better than any other core race in terms of 'playability'. I wouldn't let a player use it in my campaign for the following reasons, which I'm sure you're going to dispute.

Mental bonuses are extremely dangerous. See how none of the core races have it? That's because its incredibly easy to break low, heck even high level casting without them. A level 1 Venerable Elf here could easily have 23 charisma. That's huge, and that's just working with this and core. Sure, the constitution might hurt, but you made them 5% less likely to be hit with that Dex bonus. . . which also applies to ray spells, reflex saves, and a myriad of skillchecks.

Blindsight is ridiculous. Its a rare ability, and for good reason. It negates gaze, blinding, deafening, displacement, invisibility, and concealment of all kinds. 60 feet is far enough to detect nearly anything before being endangered in a typical dungeon crawl. Not to mention it's a pain for the DM to track exactly what reaches within that radius, even if its on the other side of a 30 foot stone wall. By nature of it being blindsight, I think it would foil even move silently automatically. Giving it flanking immunity basically gives the elf half of Heavy Fortification.

Spell-Resistance, is reasonable at first glance, but quickly gets out of hand. SR 35 is not something a 20th level character should have for free. That means your average Balor has to roll a 15 or higher, and the ever-feared Great Wyrms need at least a 16. Might I point out that a creature with SR can choose to lower it at will, meaning there is no drawback and the Healing clause probably isn't actually needed for your intention.

And for the cherry on top of the sundae, I generally stick to the +2/-2 rule when working with LA 0 3.5 races. But that's subject to change.

LA +0 Core 3 books race with mental attribute +2: Grey Elf. still have the dex bonus, and still have the con penalty.

Blindsight will be adjusted to not be able to detect outside of sneak range, or through walls.

SR 35 is not ridiculous when cleric can grant spell resistance 32 5 or more times a day, and its still not Antimagic Field, which a cleric willing to jump on a dragon can cast, and basically just ruin the dragon's day while your friends get to wail on it without half the power of the dragon being there. A Red dragon also has a Minimum of a CL 19 at Great Wyrm, which any good DM knows to boost with at least 3 Practiced Spellcaster Feats, a 4th of which will raise the Dragon's CL so high as to auto succeed against other dragons. The dragon still has 7 feats otherwise to spend. If the party is Prepared, The dragon should already have thought of this scenario and Won.

togapika
2012-04-16, 11:37 PM
This race is too powerful for level +0.

The only things that can truly be considered "core races" are included within the pages of the player's handbook.
Anything in the Monster Manual is by DM allowance only and thus not automatically assumed to be playable.

A block of stats does not a race make.

Even if this was made for pathfinder, blindsight and spell resistance at level 1 are ludicrous, especially since they don't have to lower it to be healed.

toapat
2012-04-16, 11:58 PM
This race is too powerful for level +0.

The only things that can truly be considered "core races" are included within the pages of the player's handbook.
Anything in the Monster Manual is by DM allowance only and thus not automatically assumed to be playable.

A block of stats does not a race make.

Even if this was made for pathfinder, blindsight and spell resistance at level 1 are ludicrous, especially since they don't have to lower it to be healed.

you commented while i was still trying to figure out how to properly word the nerfing of blindsight.

i dont particularly see how they could possibly be on par with Aasimar, who get +2 to wisdom

togapika
2012-04-17, 12:57 AM
i dont particularly see how they could possibly be on par with Aasimar, who get +2 to wisdom

Easy, Aasimar have a +1 level adjustment

Apalala
2012-04-17, 02:22 AM
Edit: Adding in Two weapon boost

Okay, yeah, that's definitely what this class needed. I was thinking it was a bit too underpowered compared to dwarves and half-elves, but a +2 attack bonus definitely helps to compensate.

silphael
2012-04-17, 06:16 AM
Sarcasm? Sarcasm is hard to see in a forum ><

DaTedinator
2012-04-17, 11:58 AM
An elf's Blindsight does not reveal to the elf the location of enemies in adjacent rooms. If deafened, The Elf is incapable of using Blindsight.

The first part is already the way blindsight works; it needs line of effect. The second part is already how hearing-based blindsight works. So neither note is necessary.


Now this...


must be focused on as a move action in order to use.

...Combined with this...


Creatures may make Move Silently Checks opposed to the Elf's Listen Score in order to hide from the Elf's Blindsight.

...Makes me think you don't really want them to have blindsight. If it requires a listen check to notice someone, then the main advantages it grants are (A) not needing to beat an invisible creature's Move Silently check by 20 to pinpoint them, and (B) removing the miss chance to hit if you do successfully pinpoint them, at the cost of making an active (rather than passive, free-action) Listen check.

So rather than calling this ability "blindsight," I think it'd work better if you made an ability along these lines:


[b]Precise Hearing: An elf's hearing is honed to a razor edge. An elf who makes an active Listen check need only beat an invisible foe's Move Silently check to pinpoint their location. Furthermore, in such a situation, the elf suffers no miss chance due to concealment.

That's still a little strong, and you could clean it up a bit, but it's simpler and looks better than giving them blindsight with a lot of drawbacks.

Personally, though, I think I'd go with:


Precise Hearing: An elf's hearing is honed to a razor edge. If an elf successfully pinpoints a creature's location with a Listen check, she suffers no miss chance to due to concealment against that creature.

It makes it a bit more useful in that it doesn't need a move action, but by leaving it just as hard to pinpoint an invisible creature as before, it keeps it within a more standard power level.

If you went that route, you could then add feats granting blindsense, and then blindsight to the elf, bringing it back to your original vision, albeit at a slower, more reasonable pace.

Two weapon recognition is described weirdly. I'd roll it into the weapon proficiencies, and just explain it all as basic self-defense all elves get during their century-long adolescence.


SR 35 is not ridiculous when cleric can grant spell resistance 32 5 or more times a day, and its still not Antimagic Field, which a cleric willing to jump on a dragon can cast, and basically just ruin the dragon's day while your friends get to wail on it without half the power of the dragon being there. A Red dragon also has a Minimum of a CL 19 at Great Wyrm, which any good DM knows to boost with at least 3 Practiced Spellcaster Feats, a 4th of which will raise the Dragon's CL so high as to auto succeed against other dragons.

Emphasis mine.

I'm away from my book, but can't Practiced Spellcaster only be taken once for any particular class? See here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a&page=2)

And regardless, the point about free SR 35 being ridiculous still stands. Because it's ridiculous. Can a cleric give Spell Resistance out? Yes, but only for 20 minutes at 20th level, and it's not even as high as the elves get.

Level-appropriate SR is like, an automatic +1 LA to me. Heck, any SR is pushing it. Also, it's bland and has no established reason to be there.

An idea to make it more interesting and more balanced at the same time? Maybe rather than giving them a bonus on saves against Enchantment effects, give them that SR against Enchantment effects. Now it fits the established elf flavor, is a unique ability, and is much more balanced for play.

Ursus the Grim
2012-04-17, 04:06 PM
LA +0 Core 3 books race with mental attribute +2: Grey Elf. still have the dex bonus, and still have the con penalty.

Nice catch. A racial variant outside the player's handbook. Technically core, but still not 'an elf worth playing'. Note they also have a -2 to Strength, continuing the trend of net-zero adjustment.


Blindsight will be adjusted to not be able to detect outside of sneak range, or through walls.
A later poster corrected me, technically line of effect is needed already.



SR 35 is not ridiculous when cleric can grant spell resistance 32 5 or more times a day, and its still not Antimagic Field, which a cleric willing to jump on a dragon can cast, and basically just ruin the dragon's day while your friends get to wail on it without half the power of the dragon being there. A Red dragon also has a Minimum of a CL 19 at Great Wyrm, which any good DM knows to boost with at least 3 Practiced Spellcaster Feats, a 4th of which will raise the Dragon's CL so high as to auto succeed against other dragons. The dragon still has 7 feats otherwise to spend. If the party is Prepared, The dragon should already have thought of this scenario and Won.

Yes, yes it is ridiculous. Your solution to a race's always-on SR is to cite a Tier-1 class, one of the Big Three, using a spell that grants about 100 minutes of SR three points lower? Your other solution is to break the rules and triple up on a feat that doesn't work as you describe.

If an AMF completely ruins your dragon's day, you're pretty clearly playing him worse than I am, despite me failing to 'be a good DM and give three Practiced Spellcaster' to. As for the last sentence. . . um, what were you trying to say?


Sarcasm? Sarcasm is hard to see in a forum ><

This is true. Sarcasm is always impossible to see in a forum.

Solaris
2012-04-17, 04:49 PM
They have skin color ranging from pale blue to rich periwinkle. They have very long and tall pointed ears. Their hair color ranges from most commonly a shade of aqua, with some elves having bright blue hair. Purple hair is rare among elves.
... Huh. I can't say I would've made the same choice.


Alignment: Elves very much enjoy freedom, leading them to lean more towards chaos then towards law. High elves typically enjoy life as it is, leaning them towards good.
That's an odd definition of 'good', but I don't think anyone wants this to turn into an alignment debate.



Blindsight out to 30 feet. This blindsight is hearing based, and must be focused on as a move action in order to use.*
Requiring a move action in order to use or not, this is still really good... and yet rather awkward and inelegant. Why not just give them Blind-Fight and rewrite keen senses to be less situational instead?
Deities & Demigods has the Blindsight 5-ft Radius feat. Its prerequisites are a BAB +4, Wis 19, and Blind-Fight.


Spell Resistance: A High elf has spell resistance equal to 5 + Class levels. This Spell resistance increases to 10+class levels at lvl 10, and to 15+ class levels at 20.
Not only no, but hell no. This will not work with the standard 3.5E balance point.


Weapon Proficiency: High elves are proficient with Longswords, Rapiers, Scimitars, Longbows (Including Composite Longbows), and with Shortbows (Including Composite Shortbows).
No spears? They used to get bonuses with spears, swords, and bows in AD&D.


+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. A high elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
If you want this to be useful, make it more than just doors. Might not hurt to have it a higher radius, or perhaps scaling up with the ranks in the sense skills.


Two Weapon Recognition: Elves have long favored fighting with two weapons in melee, and it shows in a genetic recognition of the combat style: Elves gain +2 to attack bonus while wielding multiple weapons.
Why not give 'em something that looks more like ambidexterity? Instead of a +2 bonus while wielding two weapons, make it so they don't have an off-hand. Both are treated as the primary for purposes of Strength bonus to damage, and maybe even let 'em wield a one-handed weapon in each hand with the same benefits as though it were a one-handed and light weapon.

toapat
2012-04-17, 06:24 PM
It makes it a bit more useful in that it doesn't need a move action, but by leaving it just as hard to pinpoint an invisible creature as before, it keeps it within a more standard power level.

If you went that route, you could then add feats granting blindsense, and then blindsight to the elf, bringing it back to your original vision, albeit at a slower, more reasonable pace.

Two weapon recognition is described weirdly. I'd roll it into the weapon proficiencies, and just explain it all as basic self-defense all elves get during their century-long adolescence.

Emphasis mine.

I'm away from my book, but can't Practiced Spellcaster only be taken once for any particular class? See here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a&page=2)

And regardless, the point about free SR 35 being ridiculous still stands. Because it's ridiculous. Can a cleric give Spell Resistance out? Yes, but only for 20 minutes at 20th level, and it's not even as high as the elves get.

Level-appropriate SR is like, an automatic +1 LA to me. Heck, any SR is pushing it. Also, it's bland and has no established reason to be there.

An idea to make it more interesting and more balanced at the same time? Maybe rather than giving them a bonus on saves against Enchantment effects, give them that SR against Enchantment effects. Now it fits the established elf flavor, is a unique ability, and is much more balanced for play.

I think ill just lift your precision hearing, its alot more what i really intended, i was really, really lazy first iteration with blindsight. no feats for it though.

i guess the entire negate the permanent -2 to attack bonus could use a little less flavor in the description

Ok, so i never caught that, it seems more like that little section was missed because of forgetting to word an exception for the limit on dragons, who would be limited to a +8 as a result because you can only take (Dragon) and (Sorcerer), ill cut +5 from each level then.

Ive never really understood the resistance to enchantment though.


Nice catch. A racial variant outside the player's handbook. Technically core, but still not 'an elf worth playing'. Note they also have a -2 to Strength, continuing the trend of net-zero adjustment.

A later poster corrected me, technically line of effect is needed already.

Yes, yes it is ridiculous. Your solution to a race's always-on SR is to cite a Tier-1 class, one of the Big Three, using a spell that grants about 100 minutes of SR three points lower? Your other solution is to break the rules and triple up on a feat that doesn't work as you describe.

If an AMF completely ruins your dragon's day, you're pretty clearly playing him worse than I am, despite me failing to 'be a good DM and give three Practiced Spellcaster' to. As for the last sentence. . . um, what were you trying to say?

-2 Str is not a penalty for a wizard, considering what they can do in this game. The core rulebooks make STR worthless for them way too easily.

Asto Antimagic Field, i mean half of a dragon's strength is their casting, and a well placed rider can, if they have antimagic field and a ride check of 40, completely negate that. If the Players have worked out a way to kill a dragon, the dragon already knows what that is, and has contingencies to counter your plans, ones to counter your Contingencies, and Contingencies set up for even better ones.



... Huh. I can't say I would've made the same choice.

That's an odd definition of 'good', but I don't think anyone wants this to turn into an alignment debate.

Requiring a move action in order to use or not, this is still really good... and yet rather awkward and inelegant. Why not just give them Blind-Fight and rewrite keen senses to be less situational instead?
Deities & Demigods has the Blindsight 5-ft Radius feat. Its prerequisites are a BAB +4, Wis 19, and Blind-Fight.

Not only no, but hell no. This will not work with the standard 3.5E balance point.

No spears? They used to get bonuses with spears, swords, and bows in AD&D.

If you want this to be useful, make it more than just doors. Might not hurt to have it a higher radius, or perhaps scaling up with the ranks in the sense skills.

Why not give 'em something that looks more like ambidexterity? Instead of a +2 bonus while wielding two weapons, make it so they don't have an off-hand. Both are treated as the primary for purposes of Strength bonus to damage, and maybe even let 'em wield a one-handed weapon in each hand with the same benefits as though it were a one-handed and light weapon.
Elves being blue: To better explain why Drow get to be black and purple.

Freedom is N-CG, it would make more sense if i had posted drow already, who will be militaristic slavers

Replaced

LA+0 has no realistic balance point. Kobolds drop well into -1, but dragonwrought could easily be LA +2-3

proficiency with a large variety of spears would be insane.

I put it in, but its limited by BAB, also added in a Bow booster.


Resume critiquing

Hiro Protagonest
2012-04-17, 06:37 PM
Easy, Aasimar have a +1 level adjustment

And are way too weak for it.

bobthe6th
2012-04-17, 09:17 PM
um, shouldn't 0 la races be net 0 abilaties + 1 skill point/level + feat?

score card here: +2 net abilities + enough minor skills to call skillpoint level + two things I would call feats(the bow and double weapon)+SR+sleep immunity +enchantment resistance+anti invisibility hearing...

the hell?

suggestion: strip it down...a lot, or give it a LA and add stuff.

Solaris
2012-04-18, 08:29 AM
Drow were black/purple with white hair 'cause that was pretty much the opposite pigmentation of regular elves, with white skin and black/brown hair.


um, shouldn't 0 la races be net 0 abilaties + 1 skill point/level + feat?

score card here: +2 net abilities + enough minor skills to call skillpoint level + two things I would call feats(the bow and double weapon)+SR+sleep immunity +enchantment resistance+anti invisibility hearing...

the hell?

suggestion: strip it down...a lot, or give it a LA and add stuff.

He's right, more or less. The general baseline for 'solid LA +0' is human, dwarf, and halfling. Exceed that by too much, and it's LA +1. Don't meet it, and it's going to be another half-elf. Right now, this is looking pretty solidly LA +1 due to the Spell Resistance.

The Winter King
2012-04-18, 12:18 PM
Spell Resistance: A High elf has spell resistance equal to Class levels. This Spell resistance increases to 5+class levels at lvl 10, and to 10+ class levels at 20.


This is worthless. SR equal to class level gives absolutely no benefit. SR is opposed by a caster level check which equals 1d20+Caster Level. Caster level is typically equal to character level so your looking at SR 1 vs. d20+1 @ lv 1, SR 15 vs. d20+10 @ lv 10 and SR 30 vs. d20+20 @ lv 20. It becomes useful only at level 20 and that is assuming no CL boosters. SR should be equal to 10+HD at least, which may seem high but SR is a circumstantial defense at best since many of the best spells do not allow SR. SR lower than 8+HD is not level appropriate at any level.

As it currently stands, a spell caster does not even have to roll until level 10 because CL checks do not auto fail on a natural one.

bobthe6th
2012-04-18, 12:41 PM
Gishes and lower level classes. Against equal level clasters yes, lower level casters and low CL NPCs it is a little bit. 8+HD=20% spell immunity, very nice any level

toapat
2012-04-18, 04:35 PM
i guess ill smooth the SR to a 4-7-10

asto the +2/-2 rule, that really only works when the -2 isnt Con, considering no matter how good you are, you still loose out ALOT of health.

TWF and Bow feats: I dont really think this can be called unfair, as neither bow nor TWF are as good as casting or a Greataxe, and both of them require alot of feats to make work.

Succubus from Savage Species has a racial modifier of +2 dex, +6 cha, Darkvision, poison immunity, and +8 to spot and listen

Ursus the Grim
2012-04-19, 12:23 PM
asto the +2/-2 rule, that really only works when the -2 isnt Con, considering no matter how good you are, you still loose out ALOT of health.

Succubus from Savage Species has a racial modifier of +2 dex, +6 cha, Darkvision, poison immunity, and +8 to spot and listen

Debatable. If your DM is enforcing encumbrance rules, as is RAW, I'd rather have the Str. Hard to carry enough food and adventuring gear when my Strength is my dump stat. On the other hand, a decent spellcaster (as you like to bring up) is unlikely to be hit with anything that deals HP damage.

As for the Succubus, if I recall correctly, it also has no armor proficiency and over the course of 12 levels only gets 6 hit die, locking you into a class with essentially Poor BaB, poor saves, and low HP. I like monstrous races, but if you're going to compare you have to account for the major disadvantages.

toapat
2012-04-19, 05:05 PM
Debatable. If your DM is enforcing encumbrance rules, as is RAW, I'd rather have the Str. Hard to carry enough food and adventuring gear when my Strength is my dump stat. On the other hand, a decent spellcaster (as you like to bring up) is unlikely to be hit with anything that deals HP damage.

As for the Succubus, if I recall correctly, it also has no armor proficiency and over the course of 12 levels only gets 6 hit die, locking you into a class with essentially Poor BaB, poor saves, and low HP. I like monstrous races, but if you're going to compare you have to account for the major disadvantages.

I agree that Str is a useful stat when encumberance is used, but i wasnt referencing any level of significant Hyper-optimization, just pointing out it can be pointed out to be a much less useful stat for a caster.

Ah, but reading through Chapter 2 of savage species, you have no need to take the inferior Succubus class levels over any player class

Ursus the Grim
2012-04-19, 05:34 PM
Ah, but reading through Chapter 2 of savage species, you have no need to take the inferior Succubus class levels over any player class

Where are you seeing this?

A monster character using [monster class] rules may not multiclass until it completes the full progression of its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster's type and then quickly switching to a standard class.

So yeah. Not only does your powergaming level dip to justify your race not work, there is a clause designed to specifically prevent it. Just like the Practiced Spellcaster issue.

BTW, I meant to say that I appreciated your nerf of the SR. Though I still have issues with the race (obviously), that was the most egregious ability.

toapat
2012-04-19, 06:26 PM
Where are you seeing this?

So yeah. Not only does your powergaming level dip to justify your race not work, there is a clause designed to specifically prevent it. Just like the Practiced Spellcaster issue.

BTW, I meant to say that I appreciated your nerf of the SR. Though I still have issues with the race (obviously), that was the most egregious ability.

ok, skimming through for greater detail, Savage species clearly cant decide whether you are free to start taking PC classes, need to meet a certain ECL, or need to take all levels of your racial class, so scratch my argument that LA +0 has no really well defined space

and practiced spellcaster was (most likely) written with things like Mystic Theurge in mind, not Dragons.

Ripping the or dex to damage from overdraw would probably be a good idea

bobthe6th
2012-04-19, 06:38 PM
SS is 3.0, just saying...

Ursus the Grim
2012-04-19, 06:45 PM
Toa: Yeah, but that quote is pretty clear cut. Can you give me a page that contradicts it?

Bob: Oh yeah, of course. I didn't bring it up though.

toapat
2012-04-19, 06:57 PM
Toa: Yeah, but that quote is pretty clear cut. Can you give me a page that contradicts it?

Bob: Oh yeah, of course. I didn't bring it up though.

Page 7 is the first page that the rules bring up character selection

Level Adjustment on page 10 is where the Take all levels first thing begins to make no sense

and as said, its not a 3.5 rulebook. my point was that wizards never bothered to come up with a proper way to determine LA

Ursus the Grim
2012-04-19, 08:31 PM
Page 7 is the first page that the rules bring up character selection

Level Adjustment on page 10 is where the Take all levels first thing begins to make no sense

and as said, its not a 3.5 rulebook. my point was that wizards never bothered to come up with a proper way to determine LA

Oh, yeah. I think I figured out where we went wrong. When you use a monster class (as your cited Succubus), you disregard LA because the penalty is built into the class so to speak. Pretty sure its on the same page I quoted earlier. Level adjustment on page 10 discusses only using a 'pre-built' monster, like just nabbing a Lizardfolk from the Monster Manual and starting at level 6. Which is the default way, but you had referenced the other way first.

I think your point was, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the succubus was unbalanced at level 1 because of its racial boosts, and therefore LA was broken. I thought you were trying to say that the Succubus was a benchmark for what is acceptable at LA 0, and therefore you had more wiggle room with the elves.

toapat
2012-04-19, 09:12 PM
Oh, yeah. I think I figured out where we went wrong. When you use a monster class (as your cited Succubus), you disregard LA because the penalty is built into the class so to speak. Pretty sure its on the same page I quoted earlier. Level adjustment on page 10 discusses only using a 'pre-built' monster, like just nabbing a Lizardfolk from the Monster Manual and starting at level 6. Which is the default way, but you had referenced the other way first.

I think your point was, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the succubus was unbalanced at level 1 because of its racial boosts, and therefore LA was broken. I thought you were trying to say that the Succubus was a benchmark for what is acceptable at LA 0, and therefore you had more wiggle room with the elves.

i sorta understand what the first half is

asto the second half: Yes, i was siting the fact that LA is not easily quantifiable, and that Wizards has done their best to make a proper scale for LA even harder to judge.

To defend the Attribute Adjustment better:
Constitution is the First or second Most valuable attribute of a single class. a penalty to Con is massive
Dex is primary to only classes that thrive on Evasion or use a bow/dual wield, so this is on the low end of value
Cha is the weakest of the 3 mental stats, and sorcs/FVS dont get mechanics nearly as OP as DMM. It also doesnt grant saves unless you spend a feat

bobthe6th
2012-04-19, 09:15 PM
easy bench mark for any brew. would you take any other race? is there a point to another race? that is a good indication of balence. as is... I would take this without a thought. 1hp/level for SR, two semi feats, and a full load of racial bonuses

toapat
2012-04-19, 09:50 PM
nerfed skill buffs
nerfed overdraw

bobthe6th
2012-04-19, 10:03 PM
closer to sane. I would sugest making it +2 dex -2 con though... as is this is a dex fighter race, and the cha just makes it look OP without doing much...

toapat
2012-04-19, 10:45 PM
closer to sane. I would sugest making it +2 dex -2 con though... as is this is a dex fighter race, and the cha just makes it look OP without doing much...

well, the real problem is the bow/DW buffs are basically always on, and i dont know how you could make it so they disable them without nerfing some class that should benefit from them

bobthe6th
2012-04-19, 11:00 PM
? make them rage ish? but really, net +2 is bad for LA+0

toapat
2012-04-19, 11:24 PM
Changed it so that you only get one or the other, not both combat feats

Solaris
2012-04-20, 04:50 PM
Why not make 'em feats?

toapat
2012-06-06, 03:43 PM
Added drow, edited elf a bit