Necrons vs The Flood

[gooddragon1]

Use the halo universe and assume all the necrons have risen from the depths after the flood completely took over. The necrons wish to kill everything and feed it to their star god masters whereas the flood are just the flood I guess.

Who would win?

Assume only that the known universe is contested and that no other life exists besides what was shown to exist in the halo series.

[Misery Esquire]

Necrons, most likely. For the following reasons...


1- No fleshy bits
2- Weapons, tanks, ships, FTL, and other support far in advance of the UNSC, who manage to fight them effectively
3- Star gods, whose repitoire of tricks include ; projecting transdimensional thunderbolts, transforming into singularity's to destabilize gravity, flinging their enemies backwards in time until they disintegrate*, controlling the minds of lesser beings, manipulating the flow of time and banishing their enemies to alternate realities.

* This is admittedly on more of a personal level, rather than a Dr. Who Timelord level of time control.
4- Teleporters ; personal, tactical and strategic
5- Still no fleshy bits
6- Self-reconstructing, self-home-teleporting-in-case-of-damage living metal troops
7- Use Gauss weapons that deconstruct/atomize fleshy bits that the flood would otherwise like to use
8- Tomb Worlds, and (maybe?) a few more of these (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/World_Engine) somewhere around.
9- Minor time control
10- Thier ships are likely unhijackable, at least against the Flood's usual method of learning how to use a species technology via thier infecting of one of that species. Plus, Necron ships are hella strong.
11- Matter of attrition, as the Flood will run out of biological to work with, while the Necrons will continue ressurecting themselves in thier Tomb worlds, have enough numbers (trillions or more?), to have been a previous galactic power before taking thier nap, and don't supply any fleshy bits for the Flood to reclaim it's losses (See 1, 5, and 6 for more about fleshy bits.)

[Forum Explorer]

agreed. I don't think the Flood actually have a way to permanently harm a necron warrior.

[Chess435]

Remember that a Gravemind CAN corrupt AI's, such as Mendicant Bias. (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Mendicant_Bias) So it's entirely possible that a Necron could be hijacked. It basically boils down to three questions:

1. Can the Flood "infect" the Necron Warriors/Lords?
2. What's the Flood's base tech level at the beginning at the match?
3. Does the Flood get a Gravemind to start?

If the answers to these questions are yes, at least Covenant level, and yes (respectively), then they stand a reasonable chance of coming out on top. If not, they get Gauss'ed to death.

Also possibly relevant: Do the necrons count as "sentient beings of sufficient biomass" for the purposes of the Halo rings? (Probably not....)

[Brother Oni]

Infecting a Necron Warrior is pointless as they're little more than mindless drones.
Necron Lords are a different matter, but it's not entirely clear whether they're AI.

Necrons are definitely not biomass as they're not biologically based ('living metal' is the usual description). Even Flayed Ones don't count as biomatter even if they do wear it.

[darksolitaire]

Necron fluff went trough pretty radical change with the latest codex. They are not mindless, and not even actually AI as such (waiting for someone else to clarify this). Also, if we assume standard WH40K necrons against flood which has infected standard Halo universe in Ages of Reclamation, flood has no chance because necrons are on higher tier of technology. Flood with forerunner tech before firing of halo array could be a different story...

[Forum Explorer]

Necron fluff went trough pretty radical change with the latest codex. They are not mindless, and not even actually AI as such (waiting for someone else to clarify this). Also, if we assume standard WH40K necrons against flood which has infected standard Halo universe in Ages of Reclamation, flood has no chance because necrons are on higher tier of technology. Flood with forerunner tech before firing of halo array could be a different story...

No they aren't an actual AI. It's more of a question if they maintained a sense of personality and intelligence after the transformation. The Lords did while the basic trooper did not. Elite Troops have intelligence but no real personality. The Lords commands are absolute and can literally not be disobeyed by a lower ranking trooper. There isn't really anything to hijack because there is no real way to access the Necrons minds. Unlike a AI that was actually programmed.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Necron fluff went trough pretty radical change with the latest codex. They are not mindless, and not even actually AI as such (waiting for someone else to clarify this).

While I won't claim to be comprehensive or totally accurate here's a short list:

-Now have factions (Dynasties) and hierarchy (Silent King), upper level necrons remain fully sentient entities. Out for themselves now. All the politics and competition that implies as well.
-Still hate everyone though.
-Base warriors still essentially mindless chattel.
-No longer C'tan slaves, C'tan are beaten slaves broken into many limited pieces.
-C'tan also explicitly upgraded to reality warpers in their base whole form *I think*
-Use "Dolmen Gates" to access the Webway apparently.
-Still beat the Old Ones but seemingly differently, no mention of Enslaver plague, Warp warping, Galactic Extinction. Seem to have entered stasis by realizing the Eldar were the rising power.
-Don't seem to have a firm plan other then killing everything.

Their basic identity is still the same, they are still complete automatons. So yeah the Flood are going to be at a fundamental disadvantage since there's nothing biological to convert

[Chess435]

So the Necrons do some kidnapping and fire the Halo Arrays as soon as they find out what they do. Game, set, match.

[maglag]

-Still hate everyone though.

On the contrary, they're now Best Buddies with blood angels! That's really saying something in 40k "the enemy of my enemy is still an enemy" terms!

Also dealings with orks and inquisitors and whatnot.



-Base warriors still essentially mindless chattel.
-No longer C'tan slaves, C'tan are beaten slaves broken into many limited pieces.

Which ironically broke the necrons themselves. They lost a lot of stuff from killing their own gods, from their mental sanity to most of their top tech, and they never really recovered.



-C'tan also explicitly upgraded to reality warpers in their base whole form *I think*
-Use "Dolmen Gates" to access the Webway apparently.

Yeah, their tech got a massive hit. No longer have inertialess drive, and they couldn't beat your average ork WWAAAGGHHH!!! if they don't have numeric superiority against the boyz.



-Still beat the Old Ones but seemingly differently, no mention of Enslaver plague, Warp warping, Galactic Extinction. Seem to have entered stasis by realizing the Eldar were the rising power.

Further proof that they've gone bats*** insane, because that last part makes no sense whatsoever. "Oh, the eldar are growing in power, let's just enter stasis so most of us can rust and be destroyed by time while the flesh ones have time to set up multiple galactic empires. Did I mention we now have no ways to replenish our numbers and we send our troops into suns for the lulz?"



-Don't seem to have a firm plan other then killing everything.

That's just the Destroyer ones. Many other necrons now actually want to go back to being flesh beings. There's also several with the old "Conquer everything" mentality, and then there's the complete insane that collect alien armies or have tea with imperial captains or whatnot.

[Urist]

The Flood, by themselves, would literally be unable to harm Necrons. They start as a viral spore that infects living beings; it mind as well be dust to them. A more interesting matchup could be the Flood-controlled portions of the Forerunner Empire vs. the Necrons. That would actually be a fight.

As it's not stated in the original post, putting stuff about Forerunner/Floodified Forerunner in spoilers.



By the end of the Forerunner-Flood war, the Flood had absorbed the populations of hundreds of thousands of the Forerunner's 3 million+ planet interstellar empire. They number in the trillions, and have the industrial capacity of all captured planets. The number of captured warships and supraliminal vessels is immense, numbering in the millions and thousands(at least). The Gravemind, formed of an amalgamation of all of the minds captured by the Flood, is able to rival the entire Forerunner Empire's computing power. Their baseline A.I's can simultaneously pilot and direct, with no crew involved, thousands of vessels of war, and Contender-Class A.I's, such as Mendicant Bias, are effortlessly able to subjugate 1000's of the baseline Forerunner A.I's.
Forerunner Tech

Forerunner(and by extension the Flood) naval and ground combat is immensely advanced. Forerunner FTL, referred to as Slipspace travel, enables stupidly fast(somewhere around 912 light years/day on a Forerunner ship that was using a fraction of avaolable power being piloted by beings who had literally no idea how to actually work any of it).

Ship-based weaponry spit's out teraton blasts, minimum(as seen in Halo: Cryptum, when a few picket cruisers destroy a Halo ring in a matter of minutes. Picket cruisers are carried four or more to a Planet-Buster, which is an 800 meter long vessel. The largest Forerunner ships are Fortress Ships, which reach over 50 kilometers long. As well, Forerunner ships are known(although exactly how isn't) to be able to cause supernova's to destroy star systems in order to contain the Flood.

Forerunner Combat Skins are essentially Space Marine Power Armor, but every one of the Forerunner's military wears them. They range from the power of the MJOLNIR armor seen in the Halo games to 6-12 times more powerful.

The Flood also have access to War Sphinxes,medium sized Forerunner armored combat suits which are capable of cleansing entire cities and fire weapons visible from orbit capable of gouging craters again large enough to be seen with the naked eye from orbit.


The way I see it, unless the Necron's awaken themselves fully and respond intelligently almost immediately, the Flood are going to be able to derp into their star systems, sacrifice a few vessels to cause the star to go supernova, and rinse/repeat. Basic ground troops are more or less evenly matched, although the Necron's ability to phase out damaged troopers means that if the Flood are unwise with their biomass commitment, they could run out of steam in ground engagements with no way to replenish their numbers, or even repair their organic bodies.

[shadow_archmagi]

The Flood, by themselves, would literally be unable to harm Necrons. They start as a viral spore that infects living beings; it mind as well be dust to them. A more interesting matchup could be the Flood-controlled portions of the Forerunner Empire vs. the Necrons. That would actually be a fight.


So, how were the Flood able to get anything done against the Forerunners?

[Devonix]

So, how were the Flood able to get anything done against the Forerunners?

The Forerunners were an actual biological race and therefore vulnerable to infection, and also arrogant enough to not bring out the big guns and eradicate the flood when they first showed up. By the time they actually did so the flood had enough stuff to make it a war of attrition which they could easily win.

[shadow_archmagi]

The Forerunners were an actual biological race and therefore vulnerable to infection, and also arrogant enough to not bring out the big guns and eradicate the flood when they first showed up. By the time they actually did so the flood had enough stuff to make it a war of attrition which they could easily win.

Yeah but how does a civilization at that tech level actually have problems with a parasite? Even if we assume that it's not viable to use their incredibly high level of science to find a quick and easy solution, surely mindless zombies don't really stand much of a chance?

And they *were* mindless until a Gravemind showed up, right?

[darksolitaire]

They waited too long to see the threat. Do remember that because of the Mantle, forerunners could not destroy the flood when it wasn't a threat.

[Aidan305]

This thread makes me miss the old Necrons. They're not nearly as terrifying and inhuman now.

[Forum Explorer]

This thread makes me miss the old Necrons. They're not nearly as terrifying and inhuman now.

Agreed. I can't even get a good hate for them anymore either :smallfrown:

[ThePhantasm]

The Flood isn't that tough when you think about it. In the Halo games I always found the Covenant to be the more formidable of the two enemies.

[Ravens_cry]

8- Tomb Worlds, and (maybe?) a few more of these (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/World_Engine) somewhere around.

Holy Contrast, Batman! Someone needs to learn to use it better at all.
That's practically unreadable!:smallyuk:

[Soras Teva Gee]

This thread makes me miss the old Necrons. They're not nearly as terrifying and inhuman now.

If you mean the old school Necrons before the word C'tan was ever uttered I can agree with you. Of just the last retcon/revampe well I can't say I *like* it but I do understand why something like it had to happen.

[Silverraptor]

The Necrons win by default on account of being from the WH40K Universe.

[Urist]

The Necrons win by default on account of being from the WH40K Universe.

Eh. If it was UNSC and Covenant-based Flood, the Necrons curbstomp, being tehnologically so far above the other races as to be untouchable. However, Forerunner era Flood had access to Forerunner, ancient Human(almost as advanced as the Forerunners, humans were devolved after the Human-Forerunner war) and San-Shyuum(Prophet) tech, all of which is pretty advanced. I posted examples of combat tech upthread, and all of those things are enough to give the Necrons a run for their money, especially if the Flood have the numbers of the entire Forerunner Empire, Human Empire, and Prophet Empires+miscellaneous lifeforms. It will probably come down to commandership, and I would give that to the Flood, as they become exponentially more intelligent with more hosts, and also have subverted Forerunner A.I's to back them up.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The Necrons win by default on account of being from the WH40K Universe.

Well at least this opinion cuts straight to the heart in revealing its prejudice.

Not that this is an uncommon opinion but it broadly speaking is completely undeserved and entirely a figment of imperial propaganda. 40k is broadly speaking the most overrated setting in existence. Though the Necrons hold up better then others.

[Emperor Ing]

If it's any consolation, GW has repeatedly stated that in 40k, canon doesn't equal true. The fact of the matter is that the fluff in the Codex was probably written by an overly exited Techpriest trying to figure out the necrons, who was subsequently mindwiped for their complete and utter stupidity. Or something of that regard.

This battle is pretty one-sided. the Flood have no way of reproducing themselves, and gauss flayers are pretty much gonna destroy whatever the flood manifests.

[shadow_archmagi]

have subverted Forerunner A.I's to back them up.

Do the flood actually have a special ability that lets them corrupt AI? I read the wiki about Mendicant Bias and it seemed like they just said "Hey, hey what if you killed everyone?" and Mendicant Bias was like "Sure why not" which to me makes it sound like Mendicant was just a bit of a jerk rather than that the Flood have any superpowers.

[Urist]

Do the flood actually have a special ability that lets them corrupt AI? I read the wiki about Mendicant Bias and it seemed like they just said "Hey, hey what if you killed everyone?" and Mendicant Bias was like "Sure why not" which to me makes it sound like Mendicant was just a bit of a jerk rather than that the Flood have any superpowers.

The Flood, specifically Gravemind, have immense computing power due to their massive neural network. They don't have any "special" abilities to corrupt A.I's, but they can wage DDoS, viral attacks, etc, with an almost unparalleled ability. If you subvert the Forerunner's, you also have subverted their A.I's, as you have the access codes to their kernels and operating systems, as well.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, maybe, but in the Halo Universe AI's going rogue, ie, Rampant, is kind of a theme and a thing in and of itself. Whether the Flood caused Mendicant Bias to become rampant is not clear, as it's kind of just something that happens to AI sometimes.

[Urist]

Well, maybe, but in the Halo Universe AI's going rogue, ie, Rampant, is kind of a theme and a thing in and of itself. Whether the Flood caused Mendicant Bias to become rampant is not clear, as it's kind of just something that happens to AI sometimes.

Hard to tell, it is intimated in some of the Terminals that Mendicant was not fully in control of his own function.

From Terminal 1:
Is this the noble sacrifice my creators spoke of? Where is the nobility in these streets paved with greasy carbon and dun ash? [My mouth is speaking at another’s behest] – that is not my voice; that is the other.

[Emperor Ing]

I REALLY don't think the Necrons work that way.

[Urist]

I REALLY don't think the Necrons work that way.

Nope, they're not even A.I's in a traditional sense. The A.I subversion conversation came about as questioning why the Flood would have Mendicant Bias/other Forerunner A.I's on their side:during the Forerunner-Flood War, the Flood subverted Mendicant Bias and other Forerunner A.I's, from Metarchs to Ancilla's.

[Ursus the Grim]

Its not even really clear how much of the 'corruption' was technological as opposed to philosophical. The Gravemind(s) is/are immensely intelligent, and with that intelligence comes an appearance of wisdom and truth that has been shown to wear down and entice even the most stalwart hearts. If there are AIs in the Necron empire that do any sort of thinking for themselves (anywhere), Gravemind can corrupt them.

The gist of the Flood is that its an immense numberless swarm of an army that is constantly adapting, growing, and assimilating as time goes on. Meanwhile, there is a physically powerful, immensely intelligent controller that is the sum of all minds killed controlling these numberless pawns. Where it not for the combined efforts of the Covenant Separatists, Loyalists, and UNSC, Gravemind would have won. Naturally, Necron vs any one of those smaller empires would be one-sided.