Change shape

[Godrednu]

So if a character uses the change shape, he gets a +20 to his Bluff check. Okay. For how long? The entire time he's in this new shape?? If so what's the point in a character of the same level trying to do an insight. They'll hardly ever succeed, right?

[WickerNipple]

So if a character uses the change shape, he gets a +20 to his Bluff check. Okay. For how long? The entire time he's in this new shape?? If so what's the point in a character of the same level trying to do an insight. They'll hardly ever succeed, right?

Can you be more specific with what power you're talking about? I'm not aware of one named that.

[Kurald Galain]

Assuming you're referring to a Hat of Disguise or the Doppelganger (Changeling) ability, it's only +5. And this bonus explicitly only applies to bluff checks for the purpose of sticking to your role.

[Godrednu]

I am speaking of the Doppelganger (changeling) ability. It says in the Glossary of the Monster manual....

If the creature is capable of assuming the form of a
unique individual, other creatures can attempt an Insight
check (opposed by the monster’s Bluff check) to pierce the
disguise. The creature must have seen the individual it is
imitating and gains a +20 bonus to its Bluff check.

[Kurald Galain]

I am speaking of the Doppelganger (changeling) ability. It says in the Glossary of the Monster manual....

For doppelganger player characters, you're supposed to use the Changeling statblock from the EPG, rather than the MM entry.

But to answer your question, it only becomes impossible for doppelgangers with a good charisma and training in bluff. Considering how most classes aren't charisma-based, this is not as bad as it sounds.

[Godrednu]

Well that sucks cause he does have a high charisma and he is trained in bluff. With the way he makes characters, I'm guessing he did that one purpose....so that he could have a character good at that. I don't think he intended to break any rules.

[tcrudisi]

Well that sucks cause he does have a high charisma and he is trained in bluff. With the way he makes characters, I'm guessing he did that one purpose.

Eh, not impossible. I made a character with a +30 insight at level 4. That was more than a year ago, so it would actually be easier to push that up higher now.

So even with a high cha character that's trained in bluff, he would only be +32 or so at level 4. That's easily pierced.

Plus, as others have said, the real bonus is only +5 and not +20 when it comes to player characters.

[Godrednu]

Plus, as others have said, the real bonus is only +5 and not +20 when it comes to player characters.

Can you please tell me where I can reference that in the books. He wouldn't be able to argue with RAW....if I can find where it says that.

[tcrudisi]

Can you please tell me where I can reference that in the books. He wouldn't be able to argue with RAW.

Sure. What he is referencing is not a PC source. He's using the Monter Manual and claiming that the monster definition of Change Shape works for him.

What he should be using is the PC version of it. The Changeling is found in the Eberron book. The polymorph power only gives a +5 bonus but otherwise works the same way.

Here's the thing: if the DM let him play a Doppelganger (the monster race, not the PC race), then he technically has the +20. But, if I were the DM, I'd talk to him about switching. Honestly, it's in his best interest. The Doppelganger has NO support what-so-ever. The Changeling has a few feats which can be used to improve his character, a power to get combat advantage for free once an encounter, and a flex stat. Also, frankly, if he's Charisma primary, he can already boost his Bluff up so high that only a specialist character can see through it anyway, whether he's at +5 or +20. It really doesn't matter, especially if the DM is using the most recent DC chart for level. He should always make the hard roll for his level anyway. The +15 really doesn't change anything there.