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motoko's ghost
2012-04-25, 07:48 AM
We've all heard of the various shenanigans Druids can pull with wild shape and natural spell(to the point many call it a class feature:smalltongue:) as what makes the druid so powerful, I was wondering would the druid be more "balanced" if natural spell was a metamagic feat? It would still allow druids casting in wild shape but it wouldn't let them spam their highest-level spells as a dire bear.

Would this work? What adjustment do you think it should have?(+1,+2,etc)

TuggyNE
2012-04-25, 06:21 PM
We've all heard of the various shenanigans Druids can pull with wild shape and natural spell(to the point many call it a class feature:smalltongue:) as what makes the druid so powerful, I was wondering would the druid be more "balanced" if natural spell was a metamagic feat? It would still allow druids casting in wild shape but it wouldn't let them spam their highest-level spells as a dire bear.

This might well improve the situation noticeably, although I doubt it would even drop them to Tier 2. Still, any little bit helps.


Would this work? What adjustment do you think it should have?(+1,+2,etc)

+1, I suspect; it's basically Still+Silent with an additional restriction (must be using special class feature) and fewer second-order advantages (not actually stilled, so grapple or paralysis prevents; not actually silent, so silence prevents and it breaks stealth). +2 is possible, but seems a little excessive -- just because druids are in fact overpowered is not a good excuse for overnerfing a specific aspect of that power. Balance in all things. :smallwink:

Straybow
2012-04-26, 06:00 PM
While it isn't as good as still and silent, but it isn't only half as good. It allows casting in wild shape. Wild shape was supposedly balanced by not allowing casting...

+1 is too weak, and +2 is too strong, and there isn't a +1.

How about splitting it into two metamagic feats?

Natural Spell I covers 1st-4th level spells, level adjustment +1
Natural Spell II covers 5th-7th level spells, level adjustment +1
8th and 9th can't be cast in wild shape.

I know folks hate a feat tax...

Jane_Smith
2012-04-26, 07:08 PM
I changed natural spell once along time ago;


Natural Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while polymorphed. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.
You can also use any material component or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while polymorphed unless that form is normally capable of speech. A natural spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.

Keep in mind we home brewed druids so that they didn't get wild shape at all, but could opt to either spontaneously convert spells into either summon animals 1-9, poly-morphing/wild shapes, cures 1-9 or inflicts 1-9. Also druids who picked the Wild Shape spell casting tree got natural spell as a bonus feat at level 5.

toapat
2012-04-26, 08:38 PM
I think this would work better to balance out Natural Spell:

Natural Spell (Metamagic)
You may cast spells without a humanoid physiology.
Benefits: You may prepare a spell so that it may be cast when using wildshape. This spell is prepared as a spell of 2 levels higher, or 1 level higher when prepared with an additional metamagic.
Normally: You can not cast spells while wildshaped

Yitzi
2012-04-26, 10:34 PM
The first step is probably to figure out which part of natural spell is the "broken" part. Is it the ability to buff your animal form? (If so, perhaps it makes more sense to depower druid buffs, and natural spell will be weakened as a side effect.) Is it the ability to use animal form for defense while casting? (If so, perhaps you want to make it harder to combine animal form with normal defenses.) Is it the ability to switch between physical and magical attacks without needing a standard action, and switching unlimited times a day? (I doubt it, as you're probably not going to want to switch that much so often anyway.) Is it the ability to attack with natural weapons in the same round you cast a (nonquickened) spell? (If so, I want to know how you pull that off.) Is it something else? (If so, what?)

motoko's ghost
2012-04-26, 11:23 PM
Thanks for the feedback everyone.

@Yitzi:It's "broken" because it allows you to do all those things, I don't really think its broken but it's so powerful players would pretty much never not take it, I just wanted to tone it down to where it's still a good choice but not that good a choice, if you know what I mean.

@straybow: good point about the level adjustment costs, mind you I think what toapat suggested is probably the closest you can get to a +1 1/2

@tuggyne: I'm not trying to drop them to tier 2, I just wanted to make it so they can't cast 9thlv spells while tanking like a fighter quite as easily

@toapat&Jane_Smith: Thanks for the suggestions on how to do it

JKTrickster
2012-04-27, 12:24 AM
Actually would this allow Wildshape being only +1:

The spell can ONLY be cast when you are in Wildshape, and never otherwise.

Then again Wildshape is wildly regarded as being superior to normal forms at higher levels, and there would be a too short of a duration at lower levels...

Hmm..sounds like a bad idea already :smallfrown:

Yitzi
2012-04-27, 08:34 AM
@Yitzi:It's "broken" because it allows you to do all those things

The question is which ones are worth more than a single feat; they're the ones that need to be depowered. (If each one isn't worth more than a feat but together they are, a good approach might be to depower some of them extremely, and let them back via other feats.)


I just wanted to tone it down to where it's still a good choice but not that good a choice, if you know what I mean.

If you're planning on using wild shape and casting a lot, I see no reason it shouldn't be a very good choice. It's useful for a few certain builds (versatility-based druid and self-buffing druid), and next to useless for anything else.


@tuggyne: I'm not trying to drop them to tier 2, I just wanted to make it so they can't cast 9thlv spells while tanking like a fighter quite as easily

So you want them to be able to cast 9th level spells or tank as well as a fighter (if you can't do both, you're tier 3 at the highest), just not both simultaneously?

Simba
2012-04-27, 08:43 AM
Maybe by making it +2 but letting Druids use it spontaneously we could reach a good compromise. No level 8 and 9 spells in animal form and a good restriction.