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Scowling Dragon
2012-04-26, 12:41 PM
Here is the deal: Rolling a 20 should be a rewarding experience, whilst rolling a 1 should kinda suck.

But at the same time the restrictions of auto loose and auto win just make you look overtly good and overtly bad.

Why should I as a god being get peppered by loosers or as a lowly carpenter bypass 3 layers of magical wards?

Well here is my solution:

When you roll a d20 add 4 to the roll. +4 to reach the DC is a pretty high modifier and it could still allow for those moments when only a 20 would hit and have an effect but would prevent a lucky shot from bypassing 3 layers of god armor.

Rolling a 1 simply subtracts 3 from the roll (So instead of getting +1 your getting -3). Same here. Also simplifies things a bit as when you reach the point that even -3 wouldn't have an effect you can just skip the roll altogether.

hamishspence
2012-04-26, 01:42 PM
DMG page 25 has (for melee) a souped up version of this- a natural 1 is treated as -10, a natural 20 is treated as 30.

Scowling Dragon
2012-04-26, 01:43 PM
Really? Huh. I play pathfinder so that wasn't written there. Also ten is rather excessive.

navar100
2012-04-26, 01:47 PM
Here is the deal: Rolling a 20 should be a rewarding experience, whilst rolling a 1 should kinda suck.



Why "should"?

hamishspence
2012-04-26, 01:49 PM
It's a variant rule sidebar.

It is rather large- I think the idea was to ensure that a a natural 20 would still be very good, but no longer an auto hit when you're extremely outclassed.

Scowling Dragon
2012-04-26, 01:50 PM
Why "should"?

Because dude. 42 is not the answer to everything. 20 is. And burn all nonbelievers. and 1 is the devil. So all the best people in the world are devils.

hamishspence
2012-04-26, 01:56 PM
This could be thought of as "nerfing the nat20/nat1 rule"- question is, how much of a nerfing does the rule need?

Since the Adversaries tend to make more rolls than the PCs- who are usually outnumbered in fights, it will tend to benefit PCs overall.

Scowling Dragon
2012-04-26, 02:02 PM
Yep. I dislike the rules because they feel like a random failure. It forces you to ALWAYS roll, even you have a large enough modifier to ignore the rule.

Also, it allows for cheap failures and cheap victories.

If im a master craftsman I should NOT completely botch my creation 1/20 times.

hamishspence
2012-04-26, 02:07 PM
I'm pretty sure skill checks don't suffer the nat20/nat1 issue anyway, at least in the sense of auto fail/auto succeed.

Scowling Dragon
2012-04-26, 02:08 PM
I'm pretty sure skill checks don't suffer the nat20/nat1 issue anyway, at least in the sense of auto fail/auto succeed.

Eh, same thing with attacks.

hamishspence
2012-04-26, 02:12 PM
Skill Checks
A skill check takes into account a characterís training (skill rank), natural talent (ability modifier), and luck (the die roll). It may also take into account his or her raceís knack for doing certain things (racial bonus) or what armor he or she is wearing (armor check penalty), or a certain feat the character possesses, among other things.

To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your characterís skill modifier for that skill. The skill modifier incorporates the characterís ranks in that skill and the ability modifier for that skillís key ability, plus any other miscellaneous modifiers that may apply, including racial bonuses and armor check penalties. The higher the result, the better. Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure.

That's in 3.5e- did Pathfinder change this?

Jeraa
2012-04-26, 02:17 PM
That's in 3.5e- did Pathfinder change this?

Its not stated in the Pathfinder skill section. However, in the Combat section, it is specifically called out for attack rolls and saving throws. Since it isn't specifically stated like that for skills, then there is no auto-success or auto-failure for skills.

Scowling Dragon
2012-04-26, 02:19 PM
Oh stupid me. I just assumed it =P

Oh well. I think a +/- modifier works fine.

Jay R
2012-04-27, 01:19 PM
My problem with crits and fumbles is that they are not affected by skill level. A great fighter who succeeds on a 2 cannot miss without fumbling. A poor fighter who misses on 19 gets a crit with every hit.

To put it another way, a 20th level fumbles as often as a 1st level. And the 1st level crits as often as the 20th level. That's ... wrong.

If my player rolls a natural 20, he rolls again. If that roll makes his natural "to-hit" roll, then it's a crit.

Likewise, on a natural one, roll again. If that is a miss, then you fumbled.

Great fighters should crit more than poor ones. Poor fighters should fumble more than great ones.

PersonMan
2012-04-27, 02:42 PM
A poor fighter who misses on 19 gets a crit with every hit.

No. A poor fighter who misses on 19 gets a crit with every double-20 he rolls.


To put it another way, a 20th level fumbles as often as a 1st level. And the 1st level crits as often as the 20th level. That's ... wrong.

If my player rolls a natural 20, he rolls again. If that roll makes his natural "to-hit" roll, then it's a crit.

Well, it's relative. Should a level 20 fighter crit more against a balor than a level 1 fighter against a goblin?

The second part...well, that's how it is in the rules. If you're doing so otherwise, it's a houserule.


Likewise, on a natural one, roll again. If that is a miss, then you fumbled.

Unless I missed something, the RAW fumble rules are 'Nat 1 is always a miss'. Do you mean that, when rolling a natural 1, you get another chance to hit? Or do you avoid some non-existent 'fumble' effect?

Absol197
2012-04-27, 03:48 PM
I use the -10/30 rule. My group takes it for granted, and it applies to every roll. It works very well. Against an opponent that completely outclasses you, you can never hit them. Against faceless mooks, you can never miss. But against equally matched opponents, you still get that lucky hit or unlucky stumble.

Another rule we use is that if your total result, including penalties/bonuses (including the -10 from rolling a nat. 1) is negative, you fumble, and something bad happens. Otherwise, you just rolled low. It cuts down on the whole, well-trained fighters fumble more than untrained ones.

randomhero00
2012-04-27, 09:37 PM
What we've always done is re-roll. So two 1s is a fumble....as in you drop your weapon or hit your friend.

if its a skill or some such then its just an auto fail on a 1 and an auto success on a 20.

A natural 20 + a (reroll) normal hit is a crit.

Three 20s is an auto kill.

Three 1s is....eep never happened....something very very bad....

Ecalsneerg
2012-04-29, 05:17 AM
To put it another way, a 20th level fumbles as often as a 1st level. And the 1st level crits as often as the 20th level. That's ... wrong.

My problem with the rule is that you're wrong here. The 20th level Fighter doesn't fumble just as often as the 1st level Fighter. He has 3 iterative attacks. He fumbles four times more often.

Winter
2012-04-29, 06:01 AM
I use a confirmation-roll on nat20s (you confirm the critical success) as well as for nat1s (you confirm the fumble).

This way, you are more likely to score a crit success against "easy" rolls, are less likely to fumble on "easy" ones and more likely on "hard" ones, just as it should be.

Let's say you are doing something that is "easy" for you. You only need a "5" to succeed.
You roll a nat 20, confirming that one is "easy" as well, so you only need to roll a 5 or better on the conformation.
Now you roll a nat 1, but the task in itself was "easy" for you, so if your confirmation is 5 or better, you avert that fumble, if it's 4 or worse (less likely) you confirm the fumble.

Now you are doing something that is "hard" for you, as in you need a 18 to make it. It's hard to confirm your natural 20 for the critical success but also very hard to avert a fumble on a natural 1.

That system works very well and can be extended to skill checks and whatnot.

Brennan1214
2012-05-14, 07:59 PM
I use a version from the epic level handbook. 20= +20 to attack/save, roll again. (For critical confirmation, roll unmodified unless another 20 which is roll that critical confirmation +20 and an extra further damage critical confirmation normal.) And 1= -20, roll again. I don't use fumbles, though after reading this thread, I'm considering checking it out.