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NeoSeraphi
2012-04-30, 03:47 PM
Inspired by this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13155133&postcount=28).



http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o501/magi_chaos/anime-3.jpg
"The sword is not a weapon, it is an extension of my arm."

Weapon Devotion (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Proficiency with a weapon, BAB +1
Benefit: Choose a single weapon (such as a longsword or a greataxe) that you are proficient with. You may choose a shield, a natural weapon, or an unarmed strike if you wish, but in order to choose unarmed strike, you must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or a similar ability.

You receive a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make with your chosen weapon. When your BAB reaches +4, you lose the +1 bonus on all attack rolls, and instead receive a +1 bonus to all attack rolls per 4 BAB you possess, and a +1 bonus to all damage rolls per 2 BAB you possess (to a maximum of +5 to attack rolls and +10 to damage rolls at +20 BAB).

Special: You may select this feat up to four times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, choose a different weapon to apply it to. After taking this feat once, you may not take it again until your BAB is at least +6. If you take this feat a second time, you may not take it again until your BAB reaches +11. If you take this feat a third time, you may not take it again until your BAB reaches +16. A fighter may choose Weapon Devotion as his fighter bonus feat. This feat counts as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for the purposes of meeting prerequisites, except for the Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, Ranged Weapon Mastery, or Weapon Supremacy feats.


Majestic Parry (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Weapon Devotion, +3 BAB
Benefit: While wielding your chosen weapon, you receive a +1 shield bonus to your AC. This bonus only stacks with an actual shield bonus to AC if your chosen weapon is a shield. At +5 BAB, and every +3 BAB after, your shield bonus to AC from this feat increases by +1, to a maximum of +7 shield bonus at +19 BAB.

Special: A fighter who possesses the Weapon Devotion feat receives this feat for free at his 3rd level of fighter (but only for the first weapon he chose with Weapon Devotion). He doesn't need to spend a feat slot on it. A fighter with multiple Weapon Devotions or a multiclassed fighter (who meets the prerequisites but does not have the minimum fighter level required to get it for free) may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.


Precise Strike (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Weapon Devotion, +5 BAB
Benefit: When you make a standard action attack (but not a full attack) with your chosen weapon, you deal an additional +1d6 points of damage. This damage is precision-based, and creatures who are immune to critical hits are immune to the extra damage from Precise Strike. Precise Strike's bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.

When your BAB reaches +6, and every +3 BAB after that, your bonus damage from Precise Strike increases by an additional +1d6, to a maximum of +5d6 at +15 BAB.

Special: A fighter who has the Weapon Devotion feat receives this feat for free at his 5th level of fighter. (but only for the first weapon he chose with Weapon Devotion). He doesn't need to spend a feat slot on it. A fighter with multiple Weapon Devotions or a multiclassed fighter (who meets the prerequisites for the feat but not the minimum fighter level required to receive it for free) may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.


Furious Charge (General)
Prerequisites: Weapon Devotion, +7 BAB
Benefit: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge, but only if every attack you make is with your chosen weapon. If you have two or more weapons that you have selected for Furious Charge (by taking Weapon Devotion at least twice and Furious Charge at least twice) you may mix and match weapons that you use at the end of a charge, but you may not make more attacks at the end of a charge than your BAB would allow (unless you have extra attacks as part of a full attack, such as from the Two-Weapon Fighting feat).

Special: A fighter who has the Weapon Devotion feat receives this feat for free at his 7th level of fighter. (but only for the first weapon he chose with Weapon Devotion). He doesn't need to spend a feat slot on it. A fighter with multiple Weapon Devotions or a multiclassed fighter (who meets the prerequisites but does not have the minimum fighter level required to get the feat for free) may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.


Improved Critical (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Weapon Devotion, +9 BAB
Benefit: The critical threat range of your chosen weapon doubles. This does not stack with any other ability that increases the critical threat range of a weapon unless that ability explicitly stacks with the keen edge spell.

Special: A fighter who has the Weapon Devotion feat receives this feat for free at his 9th level of fighter. (but only for the first weapon he chose with Weapon Devotion). He doesn't need to spend a feat slot on it. A fighter with multiple Weapon Devotions or a multiclassed fighter (who meets the prerequisites but does not have the minimum fighter level required to get the feat for free) may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.


Giant's Grip (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Weapon Devotion, +11 BAB
Benefit: You deal damage with your chosen weapon as if it were one Size category larger than it actually is. This feat stacks with actual Size increases, as well as with all similar "As if it was one Size larger" abilities, such as the Morphic Weapons class feature or the Improved Natural Attack feat.

When your BAB reaches +18, you deal damage with your chosen weapon as if it were two Size categories larger instead.

Special: A fighter with the Weapon Devotion feat receives this feat for free at his 11th level of fighter. (but only for the first weapon he chose with Weapon Devotion). He doesn't need to spend a feat slot on it. A fighter with multiple Weapon Devotions or who has multiclassed (and thus meets the qualifications but does not have the minimum fighter level to get it for free) may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.


Weapon Supremacy (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Weapon Devotion, +13 BAB
Benefit: You receive a +4 bonus on all checks made to resist being Disarmed of your chosen weapon. If your chosen weapon is an unarmed strike or a natural weapon, you instead receive a +4 bonus on all grapple and Escape Artist checks made to resist being grappled or restrained. Additionally, you may take 10 on one attack roll per round with your chosen weapon.

Starting at +15 BAB, you may also add +5 to any attack roll you make with your chosen weapon after your first attack roll in the round.

Special: A fighter with the Weapon Devotion feat receives this feat for free at his 13th level of fighter. (but only for the first weapon he chose with Weapon Devotion). He doesn't need to spend a feat slot on it. A fighter with multiple Weapon Devotions or who has multiclassed (and thus meets the qualifications but does not have the minimum fighter level to get it for free) may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.


True Weapon Mastery (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Weapon Devotion, any two feats with Weapon Devotion as a prerequisite, +20 BAB
Benefit: You may take 20 on one attack roll per encounter with your chosen weapon. Additionally, you automatically confirm all critical hits you threaten with your chosen weapon.

Special: A fighter with the Weapon Devotion feat receives this feat for free at his 20th level of fighter. (but only for the first weapon he chose with Weapon Devotion). He doesn't need to spend a feat slot on it. A fighter with multiple Weapon Devotions or who has multiclassed (and thus meets the qualifications but does not have the minimum fighter level to get it for free) may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-04-30, 04:11 PM
Hmm... I like the idea, but this is too much. I mean, this feat and a full BAB is most of a T4 class all by itself. I mean, it's giving you a magic weapon, precision damage, a shield bonus, Improved Critical, pounce... I have to ask: Why? I mean, you're a great 'brewer with a generally good grasp on balance. Why a class-in-a-can feat?

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-30, 04:36 PM
Hmm... I like the idea, but this is too much. I mean, this feat and a full BAB is most of a T4 class all by itself. I mean, it's giving you a magic weapon, precision damage, a shield bonus, Improved Critical, pounce... I have to ask: Why? I mean, you're a great 'brewer with a generally good grasp on balance. Why a class-in-a-can feat?

Because the fighter doesn't get class features. Besides, Vow of Poverty does the same thing. This feat just restricts you to only using one type of weapon, rather than using no magic items. I suppose I could make this feat Fighter-only though.

SinsI
2012-04-30, 06:09 PM
I'd remove Enchancement, and some of the other benefits would have to depend on the type of weapon - i.e. Majestic Parry for a rapier is OK, Devoted Charge for a spear is also (provided all the opponents are in your line of the charge, and you make each new attack against the next one) - but you really shouldn't charge that well with a whip...
And Weapon Supremacy is automatic no. Bonus to the save could be ok, but no automatic Disarm resistance. Also, every combat is something chaotic, you should never be able to take 10 or 20 on it - so no True Weapon Mastery either.
Maybe a reroll instead?

eftexar
2012-04-30, 06:11 PM
What about restricting it to classes of tier 4 and lower, instead of just the fighter. I think with that it would actually be a nice pick-me-up for the weaker classes. It's nowhere near enough to raise any of those classes beyond tier 3, so at a cursory glance it doesn't seem like too much of a problem. I wouldn't even bother making it a feat, but instead a patch for those classes.

Actually I would be interested in seeing a different progression for different concepts, like a speed oriented one or even one that grants a few spell-like abilities. It would also add some much needed customization to what is most likely a boring class (most tier 4s are sort of meh...). As of now I don't think some of the abilities mesh (finesse with a really big sword is all I'm getting without any fluff).

EdroGrimshell
2012-04-30, 07:54 PM
This for unarmed strikes, plus Droylt's VoP Fix, on a fighter//monk gestalt would be an interesting idea. I like it, though I agree that some things should be changed.

I will argue that some of the features could be refluffed, like Majestic Parry with a greataxe being just using the shaft to block, which is actually rather realistic.

Razgriez
2012-04-30, 08:35 PM
While I love Tier 5 classes such as Fighter and Paladin and enjoy seeing stuff sent their way... this Feat is actually over powered and has a few issues I think :smallfrown:

What you've given essentially, is something better than Weapon Supremacy, an 18th level Fighter feat. (Whether that is a feat worthy of 18 levels of Fighter class is a different matter of debate), for First level

The issues I see with this:
Majestic Parry: The problem I see here, is that it seems to conflict with the Feat's overall purpose (A replacement/supplement to the W.Focus path). Now when I think of W.Focus, I think of "Take whatever Fighting style I like, and improve it.". Majestic parry favors 2HF (lost of shield matters little now/save money on not needing to buy Bucklers/Animated Shields), TWF (Let's you ignore/supplement TWDefense), and the Shield portion of Sword and Board... but oddly, not the Sword portion of it? :smallconfused: So if I don't play a Sword and Board character with this feat as Captain America, then I lose out on one of it's abilities if I'm reading it correctly.

Precise strike: Gives a major ability of Rogue Based classes to the fighter, without the hassle of having to set up Flanking positions. Suggestion: Tone down it's effects at the very least (Slow progression down/ Reduce total dice rolls to maybe 3/Reduce Dice to d4)

Enhancement: Can't say I like this one much. I've always prefer seeing some kind of reason as to why a Character is allowed to grant their attacks the ability to ignore DRs. (Side Note/"AD-Ooh Shiny!" Moment: , I have no idea, why Paladin's don't get to treat their weapons as Lawful Good automatically by 10-12) The "Ignore Regeneration" I'm mostly fine with, as I could possibly see as a Fighter type hitting so hard and painfully that the Regen is reduced/ignored. Overall I'd say this ability needs some fluff to explain it's Free DR ignorning effects, or scrub some of it's given effects.


Other suggestions: Given the name and it's effects, I'd say this is a 1st Level only Feat, that can only be taken ONCE, for only one weapon.

Lateral
2012-04-30, 08:36 PM
So, one way to think about balancing a feat is to say, "If I were playing the kind of character that this feat fits (in this case, pretty much anyone with a weapon), would I ever not want to take it?"

For this thing? The answer is 'no'. This feat grants you more benefits than any feat out there, for minimal prerequisites. How many people regularly use more than the one weapon (outside of things like haberdasher builds and such)? Nearly any character that fights with weapons is always, ALWAYS going to want this. It's like Pounce, Improved Critical, Never Outnumbered upgraded to a feat, Monkey Grip that doesn't suck, a +7 to AC, and a whole bunch of other benefits rolled into one feat. I know, I know, melee and nice things, but this isn't just giving noncasters powerful toys. It's more like presenting every single noncaster with a choice of any from a rack of weapons that includes spears, clubs, hammers, and a machine gun. See where I'm going with this?

toapat
2012-04-30, 09:31 PM
So, one way to think about balancing a feat is to say, "If I were playing the kind of character that this feat fits (in this case, pretty much anyone with a weapon), would I ever not want to take it?"

For this thing? The answer is 'no'. This feat grants you more benefits than any feat out there, for minimal prerequisites. How many people regularly use more than the one weapon (outside of things like haberdasher builds and such)? Nearly any character that fights with weapons is always, ALWAYS going to want this. It's like Pounce, Improved Critical, Never Outnumbered upgraded to a feat, Monkey Grip that doesn't suck, a +7 to AC, and a whole bunch of other benefits rolled into one feat. I know, I know, melee and nice things, but this isn't just giving noncasters powerful toys. It's more like presenting every single noncaster with a choice of any from a rack of weapons that includes spears, clubs, hammers, and a machine gun. See where I'm going with this?

I think the problem here isnt so much that it does everything it needs to, so much as it goes too far in fixing the feats. Weapon Focus sucks, Weapon Supremacy costs way too much. This, inversely, Costs TOO little

+5 Attack bonus, +10 damage (Needs wording, alone this would make the feat better then WF+WS line)
5 lane blacktop highway with 2 lane service road: Hell NO
Shield bonus (perspective on whether good or bad, maybe make it worth twice as much to shields?)
+5d6 precision damage that stacks with sneak attack (Overboard)
Monkeygrip Pro (Not a problem)
Something that turns Charging Smite into a 1/day Automatic 449-594 (521.5 average) damage ((((Large Lance+Monkey Grip+This=4d6 weapon)+3x pally level to damage)*3 Lvl 20 auto crit*2 charge)+5d6), with plenty of damage still to come right after that.


Spoiler to preserve first post in case of edits
Inspired by this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13155133&postcount=28).



http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o501/magi_chaos/anime-3.jpg
"The sword is not a weapon, it is an extension of my arm."

Weapon Devotion (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Proficiency with a weapon, BAB +1
Benefit: Choose a single weapon (such as a longsword or a greataxe) that you are proficient with. You may choose a shield, a natural weapon, or an unarmed strike if you wish, but in order to choose unarmed strike, you must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or a similar ability.

You gain benefits from this feat, as shown on the table below. The benefits listed are cumulative unless stated otherwise (except for benefits that follow a listed progression, in which case, they stack with all other benefits except the previous ones, like the enhancement bonus +2 does not stack with enhancement bonus +1).

Special: You may only take this feat as a 1st level character (if your character does not meet the prerequisites at 1st level, you may not take this feat period). You may only take this feat once.


{table="head"]BAB | Benefit
+1 | Masterwork Blade
+2 | Majestic Parry +1
+3 | Precise Strike +1d6
+4 | Enhancement +1
+5 | Majestic Parry +2
+6 | Devoted Charge
+7 | Precise Strike +2d6
+8 | Majestic Parry +3, Enhancement +2, Improved Critical
+9 | Dazzling Display
+10 | Giant's Grip
+11 | Majestic Parry +4, Precise Strike +3d6
+12 | Enhancement +3
+13 | Weapon Supremacy
+14 | Majestic Parry +5
+15 | Precise Strike +4d6
+16 | Enhancement +4
+17 | Majestic Parry +6
+18 | Titan's Grip
+19 | Precise Strike +5d6
+20 | Majestic Parry +7, Enhancement +5, True Weapon Mastery
[/table]

Masterwork Blade: You receive a +1 untyped bonus to your attack rolls with your chosen weapon. This stacks with an actual masterwork weapon's bonus, but not with the Enhancement bonus provided by this feat.

Majestic Parry: While you wield your chosen weapon, you receive the listed bonus as a shield bonus to your AC. This bonus is lost whenever you are denied your Dexterity bonus to your AC. The bonus from Majestic Parry stacks with an actual shield bonus only if your chosen weapon is a shield.

Precise Strike: Whenever you deliver an attack with your chosen weapon as a standard action, you deal the listed bonus as extra damage that is not multiplied on a critical hit. This bonus damage is precision-based and does not apply to creatures who are immune to critical hits.

Enhancement: When you attack with your chosen weapon, you receive the listed bonus as an untyped bonus to your attack rolls, and twice the listed bonus as an untyped bonus to your damage rolls.

Devoted Charge: Starting at +6 BAB, you may make a full attack at the end of a charge, but every attack you make must be with your chosen weapon.

Improved Critical: Starting at +8 BAB, the critical threat range for your chosen weapon doubles when it is wielded by you. This does not stack with the keen edge spell or any other spell, feat, item, or class feature that improves the threat range of a weapon.

Dazzling Display: Starting at +9 BAB, you may make a dazzling display that shows off your skill with your chosen weapon. As a standard action, you may make an Intimidate check with a bonus equal to the bonus you receive to your attack rolls with your chosen weapon from this feat. You must be wielding your chosen weapon. All enemies within 30 feet who can see you must make a modified level check to resist (see the Intimidate skill) or become shaken for 1 round per point of Base Attack Bonus you have (to a maximum of two minutes at +20 BAB).

Giant's Grip: Starting at +10 BAB, you deal damage with your chosen weapon as if it were one Size category larger. This stacks with all actual Size increases, as well as all similar "as if one Size larger" increases (such as from the Morphic Weapons class feature or the Improved Natural Attack feat).

Weapon Supremacy: Starting at +13 BAB, you may take 10 on one attack roll with your chosen weapon per round, and you receive a +4 perfection bonus to all Disarm checks made to resist being Disarmed of your chosen weapon.

Titan's Grip: Starting at +18 BAB, you deal damage with your chosen weapon as if it were two Size categories larger. This stacks with all actual Size increases, as well as all similar "as if one Size larger" increases (such as from the Morphic Weapons class feature or the Improved Natural attack feat). This feature overlaps, and does not stack with, Giant's Grip.

True Weapon Mastery: Starting at +20 BAB, you may take 20 on one attack roll with your chosen weapon per encounter. Additionally, you automatically confirm all critical threats with your chosen weapon.

Othesemo
2012-04-30, 09:37 PM
I'd tend to call this more of a fighter fix than a wf fix. This feat on its own could reasonably be a Tier 5 class, which puts it head and shoulders above just about every single fighter feat available. As Lateral said, there's no reason to not take this, and that's a problem.

On an unrelated note, the capstone could be amusing in combination with a scythe and power attack.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-30, 09:37 PM
I'd remove Enchancement,

Weapon Devotion is supposed to replace the Weapon Focus line entirely. That means Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Weapon Surpremacy (a total of +4 to hit and +6 to damage normally, which I upgraded to +5 to hit and +10 to damage).



and some of the other benefits would have to depend on the type of weapon - i.e. Majestic Parry for a rapier is OK, Devoted Charge for a spear is also (provided all the opponents are in your line of the charge, and you make each new attack against the next one) - but you really shouldn't charge that well with a whip...

That is far too much effort that I am simply unwilling to put forth. There are over fifty different weapons in this game, I'm not making special abilities for each one.



And Weapon Supremacy is automatic no. Bonus to the save could be ok, but no automatic Disarm resistance. Also, every combat is something chaotic, you should never be able to take 10 or 20 on it - so no True Weapon Mastery either.
Maybe a reroll instead?

Weapon Supremacy is a feat from the Player's Handbook II. It lets you take 10 on weapon attack rolls once per round, so that feat already exists.

The bonus to resist Disarm is only +4 though, I misremembered that, so I'm fixing that now.

As for taking 20 on an attack roll once per encounter, it's hardly comparable to a rogue dishing out +40d6 damage with his Sneak Attack or a mage changing into dragons and beholders or stopping time.


So, one way to think about balancing a feat is to say, "If I were playing the kind of character that this feat fits (in this case, pretty much anyone with a weapon), would I ever not want to take it?"

For this thing? The answer is 'no'.

Balanced or not, feats like that exist. For the druid? Natural Spell. The rogue? Weapon Finesse. The paladin? Battle Blessing. The swordsage? Adaptive Style. Feats that improve a class to the point where it would hinder you to not take them already exist for a large number of classes, and the fighter needs some love. The fighter should be the king of melee, dishing out his weapon attacks like he just doesn't care.

And since no one has really suggested how to fix this feat, just that it needs to be toned down, I don't know how to proceed here.


Precise strike: Gives a major ability of Rogue Based classes to the fighter, without the hassle of having to set up Flanking positions. Suggestion: Tone down it's effects at the very least (Slow progression down/ Reduce total dice rolls to maybe 3/Reduce Dice to d4)

Um, no. The rogue gets Sneak Attack to every attack he makes while flanking. At level 20, that's +10d6 to 7 attacks per round if he's TWFing, or to 5 attacks per round if he's Rapid Shotting. Meanwhile, the fighter gets it when he makes a single attack as a standard action. It's not even remotely comparable.


Enhancement: Can't say I like this one much. I've always prefer seeing some kind of reason as to why a Character is allowed to grant their attacks the ability to ignore DRs. (Side Note/"AD-Ooh Shiny!" Moment: , I have no idea, why Paladin's don't get to treat their weapons as Lawful Good automatically by 10-12) The "Ignore Regeneration" I'm mostly fine with, as I could possibly see as a Fighter type hitting so hard and painfully that the Regen is reduced/ignored. Overall I'd say this ability needs some fluff to explain it's Free DR ignorning effects, or scrub some of it's given effects.

I guess I'll take the DR piercing out of the feat then.


Majestic Parry: The problem I see here, is that it seems to conflict with the Feat's overall purpose (A replacement/supplement to the W.Focus path). Now when I think of W.Focus, I think of "Take whatever Fighting style I like, and improve it.". Majestic parry favors 2HF (lost of shield matters little now/save money on not needing to buy Bucklers/Animated Shields), TWF (Let's you ignore/supplement TWDefense), and the Shield portion of Sword and Board... but oddly, not the Sword portion of it? So if I don't play a Sword and Board character with this feat as Captain America, then I lose out on one of it's abilities if I'm reading it correctly.


You don't lose out on the ability if you're playing a Sword and Board character. Majestic Parry just doesn't stack with your shield bonus (so you're essentially losing your shield's bonus, since it's going to be smaller than Majestic Parry).

Think of it as not having to invest in your shield, since you'll end up with +7, which is as much as a +5 steel shield, for free. Most characters buy a +5 animated steel shield anyway, this feat simply saves melee characters some WBL while keeping their AC relevant.


Other suggestions: Given the name and it's effects, I'd say this is a 1st Level only Feat, that can only be taken ONCE, for only one weapon.

An interesting restriction. In that case, it would only be open to characters who took a full BAB class (and thus, tier 3 or below) for their first level, and forever unavailable to single-classed rogues or casters. I like it.

tonberrian
2012-04-30, 10:01 PM
See, Enhancement in and of itself makes for a solid (if boring) feat. As does Majestic Parry, Devoted Charge, Giant's/Titan's Grip, Dazzling Display, and Weapon Supremacy. Just because broken feats exist doesn't mean you should make more of them.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-30, 10:09 PM
See, Enhancement in and of itself makes for a solid (if boring) feat. As does Majestic Parry, Devoted Charge, Giant's/Titan's Grip, Dazzling Display, and Weapon Supremacy. Just because broken feats exist doesn't mean you should make more of them.

The problem is that a fighter should only have to spend one of his feats in order to be a "fighter". The draw of the fighter is the level of customization that he offers. If I make a bunch of feats that all do the things I put above, then each fighter would take them all, and then we would have a group of fighters who were all the same, save the weapon they chose.

This way, the fighter has a single slot feat tax just like all the other classes, but he ends up getting a scaling bonus that provides him with a basic "class" chassis, so that he can spend his other feats on real customization, like Improved Bull Rush or Combat Expertise or whatever his chosen style is.

tonberrian
2012-04-30, 10:16 PM
The problem is that a fighter should only have to spend one of his feats in order to be a "fighter". The draw of the fighter is the level of customization that he offers. If I make a bunch of feats that all do the things I put above, then each fighter would take them all, and then we would have a group of fighters who were all the same, save the weapon they chose.

This way, the fighter has a single slot feat tax just like all the other classes, but he ends up getting a scaling bonus that provides him with a basic "class" chassis, so that he can spend his other feats on real customization, like Improved Bull Rush or Combat Expertise or whatever his chosen style is.

The problem is that characters get too few feats in general, and the Fighter in specific needs real class features. The "fix" should be giving the Fighter A REAL CLASS, not making broken feats for him. If you're going to give the fighter exclusive feats, make them into actual class features instead. Having them as feats is sloppy design (unless, of course, you use them as feats to make the class more modular, as jiriku (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194834) does quite excellently).

Razgriez
2012-04-30, 10:35 PM
Weapon Devotion is supposed to replace the Weapon Focus line entirely. That means Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Weapon Surpremacy (a total of +4 to hit and +6 to damage normally, which I upgraded to +5 to hit and +10 to damage)....

*snip*

Um, no. The rogue gets Sneak Attack to every attack he makes while flanking. At level 20, that's +10d6 to 7 attacks per round if he's TWFing, or to 5 attacks per round if he's Rapid Shotting. Meanwhile, the fighter gets it when he makes a single attack as a standard action. It's not even remotely comparable. My apologies, when I originally read it, I thought it meant it also applied to Full attacks. If this is meant as a Single Attack bonus, then by all means, keep it as originallly written.


You don't lose out on the ability if you're playing a Sword and Board character. Majestic Parry just doesn't stack with your shield bonus (so you're essentially losing your shield's bonus, since it's going to be smaller than Majestic Parry).

Think of it as not having to invest in your shield, since you'll end up with +7, which is as much as a +5 steel shield, for free. Most characters buy a +5 animated steel shield anyway, this feat simply saves melee characters some WBL while keeping their AC relevant. Perhaps I'm a bit confused here then with Majestic Parry's ability.

If I take this feat, and apply it to my One hander weapon, in a Sword and Board build, it would not stack even with the unaltered shield Bonus AC? If that's correct, then why carry a shield then? At that point, wouldn't it be better to either A. Go TWF for extra Attacks. B. Go 2HF for Power Attack, combined with this feat?

Grod_The_Giant
2012-04-30, 10:40 PM
And since no one has really suggested how to fix this feat, just that it needs to be toned down, I don't know how to proceed here.

Change it to a fighter ACF and call it a night?

Razgriez
2012-04-30, 10:53 PM
The problem is that a fighter should only have to spend one of his feats in order to be a "fighter". The draw of the fighter is the level of customization that he offers. If I make a bunch of feats that all do the things I put above, then each fighter would take them all, and then we would have a group of fighters who were all the same, save the weapon they chose.

This way, the fighter has a single slot feat tax just like all the other classes, but he ends up getting a scaling bonus that provides him with a basic "class" chassis, so that he can spend his other feats on real customization, like Improved Bull Rush or Combat Expertise or whatever his chosen style is.


The problem is that characters get too few feats in general, and the Fighter in specific needs real class features. The "fix" should be giving the Fighter A REAL CLASS, not making broken feats for him. If you're going to give the fighter exclusive feats, make them into actual class features instead. Having them as feats is sloppy design (unless, of course, you use them as feats to make the class more modular, as jiriku (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194834) does quite excellently).

Change it to a fighter ACF and call it a night?

And that there, is the single greatest issue of the W. Focus tree for Fighters. It's Because they should be Class Abilities, that you automatically get, without even burning up feat slots. Not these "Well congratulations on reaching Level X. Now burn your "Bonus" Feat on this".

toapat
2012-04-30, 10:55 PM
The proper solution here is to actually Break this up into Feats, and that because this us supposed to eliminate the Fighter's 7ish feat tax, Have the base feat self Apply all except that DR bypassing in relation to fighter levels, while the feats themselves can also be taken, but not without feat taxing

to break the feat down:
Mundane bonuses feat: Weapon Practice (+5 Accuracy, +10 Damage, IC)
Majestic Parry + Precision Strike + Devoted Charge: Combat Majesty
Weapon Supremacy + True Weapon Mastery + Dazling Display: Extension of self
Giants Grip + Titan's Grip + Monkey grip: Oversized Weapon Fighting
DR breakers: NO. If this was to stay, it has impossible Pre-requisites, such as -1 BAB. but name wise: Exploit Weakness

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-30, 10:56 PM
Change it to a fighter ACF and call it a night?

Nah. I already made a fighter fix that I'm quite pleased with. Classes need options, not numbers. Feats are there to provide numbers, this just does it in a scaling way.


If I take this feat, and apply it to my One hander weapon, in a Sword and Board build, it would not stack even with the unaltered shield Bonus AC? If that's correct, then why carry a shield then? At that point, wouldn't it be better to either A. Go TWF for extra Attacks. B. Go 2HF for Power Attack, combined with this feat?

It's already better to do either of those things. You can already get a +5 animated shield and have a +7 shield bonus to your AC while two-handing or two-weapon fighting. That's why Sword-and-Board is considered so awful.


The problem is that characters get too few feats in general, and the Fighter in specific needs real class features. The "fix" should be giving the Fighter A REAL CLASS, not making broken feats for him. If you're going to give the fighter exclusive feats, make them into actual class features instead. Having them as feats is sloppy design (unless, of course, you use them as feats to make the class more modular, as jiriku does quite excellently).

That's right. Characters do get too few feats. Most characters only get 7. So they should all stay relevant at high levels. The problem isn't that this feat is too powerful, it's that most feats are way too weak.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-30, 11:03 PM
And that there, is the single greatest issue of the W. Focus tree for Fighters. It's Because they should be Class Abilities, that you automatically get, without even burning up feat slots. Not these "Well congratulations on reaching Level X. Now burn your "Bonus" Feat on this".

Exactly. That's why I don't want to make this a bunch of feats. One feat that scales with BAB seems like the best option. If I make it four or five feats, then it's no better than Weapon Specialization (well, I mean, the effects are better, but not the pseudo-choice bonus feat tax setup)

tonberrian
2012-04-30, 11:04 PM
The problem isn't that this feat is too powerful, it's that most feats are way too weak.

Not really. Most feats are way to weak, yes. Skill Focus, any of the +2/+2 skill feats, Toughness, etcetera. But Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, and Power Attack are all solid feats. This is the medium we should balance around, not the absurdly high power of Natural Spell and DMM: Persist.

toapat
2012-04-30, 11:07 PM
Exactly. That's why I don't want to make this a bunch of feats. One feat that scales with BAB seems like the best option. If I make it four or five feats, then it's no better than Weapon Specialization (well, I mean, the effects are better, but not the pseudo-choice bonus feat tax setup)

Ah, but here is where a creative solution shines: Have the base of the 4-5 feats (WF+WS+chain+IC) auto grant the others when you have X, Y, Z, and W Fighter levels respective to their power.

Cieyrin
2012-05-01, 10:24 AM
So much for TWFers that want to specialize in using two weapons that aren't the same. :smallfrown:

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-01, 11:09 AM
So much for TWFers that want to specialize in using two weapons that aren't the same. :smallfrown:

It's not like the Weapon Focus feat rewarded that anyway. Just think of it as rewarding synergy for using the same weapon (and thus focusing on it) rather than punishing people who want to be different.

Besides, TWF fighters finally have pounce! I mean, this feat greatly helps a fighter who wants to dual-wield (rather than a rogue who wants to dual-wield).

Cieyrin
2012-05-01, 11:29 AM
Besides, TWF fighters finally have pounce! I mean, this feat greatly helps a fighter who wants to dual-wield (rather than a rogue who wants to dual-wield).

What do you mean finally? Two Weapon Pounce has a been a feat since PHB2. :smallconfused:

Grod_The_Giant
2012-05-01, 12:19 PM
What do you mean finally? Two Weapon Pounce has a been a feat since PHB2. :smallconfused:

It doesn't actually give you pounce-- it's just lets you attack once with each weapon at the end of a charge.

Cieyrin
2012-05-01, 12:48 PM
It doesn't actually give you pounce-- it's just lets you attack once with each weapon at the end of a charge.

I'm aware of that, just saying that such work has been done before, not to mention the similar Tempest Two-Weapon Spring Attack and Dervish Dance supporting such since Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer. So it's not something new to the game, Spirit Lion notwithstanding.

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-01, 12:49 PM
It doesn't actually give you pounce-- it's just lets you attack once with each weapon at the end of a charge.

He is correct. Attacking once with each weapon at the end of a charge is a much weaker feat than say, Leap Attack or Shock Trooper.

tonberrian
2012-05-01, 01:10 PM
It's not like the Weapon Focus feat rewarded that anyway. Just think of it as rewarding synergy for using the same weapon (and thus focusing on it) rather than punishing people who want to be different.

Besides, TWF fighters finally have pounce! I mean, this feat greatly helps a fighter who wants to dual-wield (rather than a rogue who wants to dual-wield).

Pounce with only one weapon type. Which screws over any TWF who wants to use two different weapons, since they don't have a similarly stupidly-powerful feat.

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-01, 01:25 PM
Pounce with only one weapon type. Which screws over any TWF who wants to use two different weapons, since they don't have a similarly stupidly-powerful feat.

And how is that any different than the current method of Spirit Lion Totem screwing over any TWF character who doesn't dip barbarian (and thus can't be Lawful), since they don't have a similarly stupidly-powerful class feature?

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-01, 01:33 PM
Ah, but here is where a creative solution shines: Have the base of the 4-5 feats (WF+WS+chain+IC) auto grant the others when you have X, Y, Z, and W Fighter levels respective to their power.

Anyway, this is a pretty good idea, but...my precious table! I worked so hard on that! :smallsigh:

Ah well. One semi-auto feat chain, coming up.

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-01, 02:01 PM
There we go. How do the new feats look?

General Patton
2012-05-01, 02:11 PM
Looks good. For Weapon Supremacy with Natural Attacks and Unarmed Strikes, shouldn't the bonus against being Disarmed instead be a bonus to Escape Artist or Strength Checks to resist grappling or being bound/restrained?

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-01, 02:17 PM
Looks good. For Weapon Supremacy with Natural Attacks and Unarmed Strikes, shouldn't the bonus against being Disarmed instead be a bonus to Escape Artist or Strength Checks to resist grappling or being bound/restrained?

Sure, I'll change that now.

toapat
2012-05-01, 02:55 PM
Anyway, this is a pretty good idea, but...my precious table! I worked so hard on that! :smallsigh:

Ah well. One semi-auto feat chain, coming up.

Never fear, I preserved the original version in a spoiler in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13156845&postcount=9)

tonberrian
2012-05-02, 07:40 AM
There's really no reason to limit Weapon Devotion to first level, or to only be able to pick it up once. It certainly can't replace Weapon Focus without doing so, because replacing it with the current Weapon Devotion suddenly makes everything that currently requires Weapon Focus much more restrictive than the designers intended.

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-02, 08:22 AM
There's really no reason to limit Weapon Devotion to first level, or to only be able to pick it up once. It certainly can't replace Weapon Focus without doing so, because replacing it with the current Weapon Devotion suddenly makes everything that currently requires Weapon Focus much more restrictive than the designers intended.

The reason for making it first level only is to reserve the feat for warrior-types. Yes, it's more restrictive, but true melee doesn't get enough nice tricks to itself.

tonberrian
2012-05-02, 08:46 AM
The reason for making it first level only is to reserve the feat for warrior-types. Yes, it's more restrictive, but true melee doesn't get enough nice tricks to itself.

A flat attack/damage bonus is not a nice enough trick to limit it to full BAB classes. And what, ninjas can't specialize in shuriken anymore? That's ridiculous.

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-02, 09:09 AM
A flat attack/damage bonus is not a nice enough trick to limit it to full BAB classes. And what, ninjas can't specialize in shuriken anymore? That's ridiculous.

Hmm...fair enough. I'll open it up. It's not like the 3/4 BAB classes will get as much benefit anyway since everything scales by BAB.

Edit: Okay, you can take it at any level now. But the restriction on only being able to take it once still stands. It's called "Weapon Devotion" for a reason. It grants much stronger benefits than Weapon Focus, because it represents a much more narrow training path.

tonberrian
2012-05-02, 09:16 AM
Is Weapon Devotion meant to replace Weapon Focus, or exist along beside it? You might want to consider having Weapon Devotion count as Weapon Focus (and maybe Weapon Specialization) for the purposes of prerequisites.

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-02, 09:48 AM
Is Weapon Devotion meant to replace Weapon Focus, or exist along beside it? You might want to consider having Weapon Devotion count as Weapon Focus (and maybe Weapon Specialization) for the purposes of prerequisites.

Right. And yeah, it's supposed to replace Weapon Focus (Doesn't really make sense to me that you can take Weapon Focus more than once in the first place. If you're focusing on more than one weapon, it's not really focusing anymore).

Cieyrin
2012-05-02, 12:23 PM
Right. And yeah, it's supposed to replace Weapon Focus (Doesn't really make sense to me that you can take Weapon Focus more than once in the first place. If you're focusing on more than one weapon, it's not really focusing anymore).

There are plenty of styles, both in-game and in RL, based on using pairs of dissimilar weapons to great effect. Trident and Net is a famous combination, Sword and Dagger (or Main Gauche/Short Sword) is a trope of swashbuckling and two of my personal favorite weapon styles are Anvil of Thunder (Axe and Hammer) and Axe Spike (Axe and Armor Spike), which you're denying a place by limiting it to one specialization.

How about, as a compromise, limiting it to being taken once per +5 BAB beyond BAB +1, i.e. when you get a new iterative. This rewards full BAB characters with being able to maintain multiple specializations while making it possible for the classic Blade and Bow character to be feasible, at least somewhat.

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-02, 01:14 PM
How about, as a compromise, limiting it to being taken once per +5 BAB beyond BAB +1, i.e. when you get a new iterative. This rewards full BAB characters with being able to maintain multiple specializations while making it possible for the classic Blade and Bow character to be feasible, at least somewhat.

Done. How's it look now?

Larkas
2012-05-02, 01:58 PM
There are plenty of styles, both in-game and in RL, based on using pairs of dissimilar weapons to great effect. Trident and Net is a famous combination, Sword and Dagger (or Main Gauche/Short Sword) is a trope of swashbuckling and two of my personal favorite weapon styles are Anvil of Thunder (Axe and Hammer) and Axe Spike (Axe and Armor Spike), which you're denying a place by limiting it to one specialization.

You do have a point, but consider this: these fighting styles were completely different from the styles using a single one of any of those weapons. A person very good at fighting with the Sword and Dagger might not fight as efficiently fight with just a sword or just a dagger. Ideally, there should be a "Fighting Style Specialization", but I don't think that's feasible.

Cieyrin
2012-05-02, 02:28 PM
Done. How's it look now?

Fine by me.


You do have a point, but consider this: these fighting styles were completely different from the styles using a single one of any of those weapons. A person very good at fighting with the Sword and Dagger might not fight as efficiently fight with just a sword or just a dagger. Ideally, there should be a "Fighting Style Specialization", but I don't think that's feasible.

I think that's what Weapon Styles and Martial Art Masteries were meant to be, though their execution varies quite a bit.

jojolagger
2012-05-02, 04:23 PM
Just noting that the current wording of weapon devotion allows the 4 times it's taken to all be for the same weapon, giving +20 to hit and +40 to damage.
Add a line like "If this feat is taken multiple times, it can't stack, you must pick a different weapon each time."

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-02, 11:09 PM
Just noting that the current wording of weapon devotion allows the 4 times it's taken to all be for the same weapon, giving +20 to hit and +40 to damage.
Add a line like "If this feat is taken multiple times, it can't stack, you must pick a different weapon each time."

Ah good point. Fixed.

Razgriez
2012-05-03, 08:42 PM
Ok, view over all of the redone, broken up into multiple features:

I like it actually better than the original version. It's much more balanced, still gives some options for other low tier classes (Paladins, Barbarians, and the odd 3/4 BAB combatant). But most importantly, it gives Fighter something akin to a real Class ability.

I may have to incorporate this into my next Fighter class or allow this when I try my hand at DMing

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-08, 07:16 AM
Ok, view over all of the redone, broken up into multiple features:

I like it actually better than the original version. It's much more balanced, still gives some options for other low tier classes (Paladins, Barbarians, and the odd 3/4 BAB combatant). But most importantly, it gives Fighter something akin to a real Class ability.

I may have to incorporate this into my next Fighter class or allow this when I try my hand at DMing

Thank you. Let me know how it goes. :smallsmile: