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Vaynor
2012-05-03, 12:47 PM
Link here. (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/03/june-cover-revealed-the-elder-scrolls-online.aspx)

Thoughts? Sounds like it could be awesome, trailer should be up tomorrow.

Edit: Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6m9-Dret0U) a link to the announcement trailer.

Here's a list of facts known about the game so far:
-Releasing 2013 for PC/Mac
-Developed by ZeniMax Online Studios
-MMORPG
-250 Person Team
-Started development in 2007
-"This time, saving the world from the awakening of ancient evil is only the beginning. What happens when hundreds or thousands of prophesied heroes all think that they should be Emperor?"
-The game is fully voice acted
-Third person perspective
-The game uses a hotbar to activate skills like other traditional MMOs
-Visually it looks like other Hero Engine MMOs like SWTOR
-The general art style is kind of like RIFT or Everquest 2
-You can't be a werewolf or vampire
-Crafting, alchemy, and soul stones will exist in an unrevealed form
-There will be Daedric Princes like Molag Bal, the primary antagonist, and Vaermina, "whose sphere of influence extends to the dream world and the nightmares of mortals", along with some unnamed others
-Constellations will be in the game a la Mundus stones (which work like guardian stones) and also give the answer to things like block puzzles where you step on the blocks in a certain order
-Tons of towns ranging from Imperial City, Windhelm, Daggerfall, Sentinel, Mournhold, Ebonheart, Elden Root, Shornhelm, Evermore, Riften, and a lot more
-Radiant AI will not be present
-There will be mounts, but no flying mounts
-Fast travel exists in the game in the form of wayshrines, which are also your ressurection point, and you can teleport from one wayshrine to any other wayshrine you have already visited
-There most likely won't be dragons
-Sneaking will be in the game, but how it is implemented is undecided
-They're not talking about pets right now
-There will be no player housing
-There will be no NPC romances or marriage
-"It needs to be comfortable for people who are coming in from a typical massively multiplayer game that has the same control mechanisms, but it also has to appeal to Skyrim players."
-Features most of Tamriel including Skyrim, Morrowind, Summerset Isle, and Elseweyr.
-"Not all provinces are included in their entirety; Zenimax Online is keeping large areas inaccessible to save them for use as expansion content. Nonetheless, every major area is represented to some extent."
-As an example, Windhelm is fully implemented, but Winterhold and the mages' college won't be in at launch.
-There are three player factions:
--Ebonheart Pact: The Nords, Dunmer, and Argoninans
--Aldmeri Dominion: Altmer, Bosmer, and Khajit
--Daggerfall Covenant: Bretons, Redguard, and Orcs
-"Recreateing the freedom Elder Scrolls players expect within the World of Warcraft-style mechanics Zenimax Online is using for this MMO would be impossible without changing the way that players interact with the world."
-As such, the game uses a hubless design
-For example, you don't necessarily pick up a quest to do the following, but if you kill all the necromancers in an undead barrow, a shade you free at the end will reward you.
-However, to help you find these events, various NPCs you talk to will tell you where they are happening and put a marker pointing them on your map, which is obviously totally different than receiving a quest.
-Not all quests will have NPCs that indicate where they are
-The game uses MMORPG genre standards such as classes, experience points, and other traditional MMORPG progression mechanics, but they try to present it "around the core fantasy presented by traditiona Elder Scrolls games" such as traveling around and righting wrongs or seeking riches
-The game world is very large relative to Skyrim
-You can explore almost anything you can see
-the game is set 1000 years in the past
-You can't master every discipline
-The imperials are an enemy to all three factions, lead by the noble Tharn family and the King of Worms, Mannimarco, and are hatching a plot to take over all of Tamriel
-But BEHOLD, Mannicmarco is scheming with Daedric prince Molag Bal to take over the world behind the Tharn's back
-Also, your soul has already been stolen by Molag Bal, which is the reason you can come back from death over and over again, and the starting plot is that you're fighting Molag Bal to get your soul back from him
-Hitting the level cap takes about 120 hours
-Each faction has their own leveling content
-An example quest is the story of Camlorn, where you have to stop evil werewolves who have their eyes set on conquest. First, you have to do a "standard MMO kill and collection quest" to sto ghosts from attacking some mages and soldiers. The ghosts are reliving a battle that the werewolf leader was in. You summon a ghost to find out what's going on, and the ghost tells you to wear her dead husband's armor to re-experience the battle he died in. You then get transported hundreds of years into the past to fight this battle. During this battle, you can choose to save the dead man's wife or to pursue the Werewolf leader. ZeniMax chooses to save the man's wife, who then tells you that the Werewolf leader is weak to fire. This information is helpful when you fight him, but you don't actually need to do this quest before fighting the werewolf leader if you don't want to. Basically, you can skip parts of quest chains if you want, but you get some benefit for playing the whole thing. Also, whenever you go back to the town you just saved, everything there hails you as a hero.
-The game features three faction PvP where you fight to take over keeps and use trebuchets and other siege weapons to help do it. At the high end, you can have 100 v 100 battles. There are also farms and mines you can try to take over. Mots of this happens in Cyrodiil where your goal is to take over and hold the Imperial City to get faction wide bonuses for it. If you have played Dark Age of Camelot, this probably sounds familiar. For those who haven't, essentially the entire zone is a giant PvP area will all sorts of points of interest.
-The most accomplished PvP player on your faction becomes emperor whenever you take over the capital
-When you take over Cyrodiil, you will be able to adventure in it as a hostile city a la Kvatch
-The game will have raids and heroic modes for its dungeons as end game content in addition to faction PvP
-There is also balanced PvP for people who prefer eSports
-The game will also have high end public dungeons
-Public dungeons are essentially instances that aren't actually instanced, so anyone can be in them, so imagine a World of Warcraft dungeon that featured everyone on the server in the area instead of just your party
-There are standard instanced dungeons as well
-Back on the topic of the skillbar, you have a limited number of skills you can use at any given time, and can change them whenever you're out of combat
-The number of skills is equal to (paraphrase) "a light and heavy attack with your current weapon that take up the first two slots, a few more spells related to your class, and an ultimate in the last slot".
-The ultimate is used once you gain enough finesse, which is earned by doing well in combat
-You also get a bonus loot chest if you're soloing and max your finesse, and you can also build finesse by comboing with other players
-For example, a rogue can put oil on the ground that a mage can set on fire
-A fighter can also spin in the firestorm a mage puts down, which sends out fireballs
-If you've seen Guild Wars 2 videos, the above will seem familiar
-You can't combo with the abilities of enemy players though, so if an enemy faction player drops an oil slick, you can't set it on fire
-The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood will be presented, but in what form isn't detailed as their contnet is hard to recreate in an MMO setting
-NPCs will try to work together and use player like behavior when fighting you, and (at least to my understanding) have stamina as well
-They want the AI to be good, so instead of enemies in a dungeon sitting around and waiting to be pulled, you will be attacked by the entire room and they will try to react to how you are playing
-The claim was not demo'ed to Game Informer
-You destroy dark anchors to gain reputation with the Fighter's Guild. They are large hooks that fall from the sky pseudorandomly and have Daedric guardians next to them. They are easier to kill with a group, and once destroyed, everyone who participated gets a reputation boost with the Fighter's Guild, and eventually nets you rewards like new skills and abilities.
-The combat model will not be real time due to latency
-The combat is based around a stamina bar which you can use to sprint, block, interrupt, and break incapacitating effects
-Blocking is the primary focus of these abilities, and can do things like stopping the secondary effects of attacks such as an ice spell slowing you
-Stamina also applies to PvP, so stamina management (and wearing down your enemy's stamina) is important, as your crowd control abilities might be on a long cooldown, and if you use them before the enemy player runs out of stamina, they will probably just block the effect
-ZeniMax feels that having the stamina bar will help break down the Holy Trinity as stamina allows you to do things like tank
-However, healing is still a big part of the game
-There is also no aggro mechanic in the game, which is part of the reason stamina blocking and healing exist

Starwulf
2012-05-03, 01:09 PM
So very very disappointed in Bethesda :-(. I won't be touching this game with a 10-foot pole. TES games are single player, and single player for a reason. They aren't meant for this kind of game. Bleck.

Grinner
2012-05-03, 01:12 PM
I'm afraid it's going to be like every other medieval fantasy MMO: kill, loot, and level up. Sure, it's cool that they can paste the Elder Scrolls brand name over it, but will it offer anything worthwhile? :smallsigh:

Lamech
2012-05-03, 01:13 PM
Everything about I like about MMO's (and by MMO's I mean Eve), and everything wonderful about TES's (mods, seeing what inane things you can pull off) while they are both wonderful, mixing them will be... hard.
Also bethsada in my experience can't make a game that doesn't have game wrecking, but easily fixable with "`", glitches. Which while fine in a game with "`" is a terrible idea for a MMO.

This will all end in tears.

Aidan305
2012-05-03, 01:14 PM
So very very disappointed in Bethesda :-(. I won't be touching this game with a 10-foot pole. TES games are single player, and single player for a reason. They aren't meant for this kind of game. Bleck.

Personally, I'm interested in seeing what Bethesda can bring to what has become, with a rare few exceptions, a very stale and formulaic genre of gaming.

Grinner
2012-05-03, 01:24 PM
It might be worth pointing out that while the dev. team, Zenimax Online Studios, is related to Bethesda, they are not actually Bethesda.

Vaynor
2012-05-03, 02:37 PM
It might be worth pointing out that while the dev. team, Zenimax Online Studios, is related to Bethesda, they are not actually Bethesda.

Just about to say this. Yeah, Zenimax Media owns Bethesda, and created Zenimax Online Studios in 2007 specifically to make this game. It's not an elder scrolls game, it's an MMO set in the elder scrolls universe, if that makes sense. I'll reserve judgment until more info is released.

Leecros
2012-05-03, 02:58 PM
*sigh:smallsigh:


I don't think i really have any words to explain how i'm feeling about this...



It's not an elder scrolls game, it's an MMO set in the elder scrolls universe, if that makes sense.

True, but i've yet to see a series continue(or do well) past an MMO. Never. With maybe the exception of series' that are made initially as MMO's and continue as MMO's with MMO sequels.
I may just be cynical, but this is pretty much the equivalent of someone saying that there won't be another good Elder Scrolls game.

Maybe i'll be surprised, but i doubt it. I can't even comprehend trying to dive into a dungeon while being chatspammed by people, kids, flamers, spammers, bots, and the like. Dealing with the mass of bodies traveling in and out of locations, it won't feel like an adventure, it'll feel like you're just the next person in line.


You're right, this game....won't be an Elder Scrolls game, it will be an abomination.

Vaynor
2012-05-03, 03:00 PM
True, but i've yet to see a series continue(or do well) past an MMO. Never. With maybe the exception of series' that are made initially as MMO's and continue as MMO's with MMO sequels.
I may just be cynical, but this is pretty much the equivalent of someone saying that there won't be another good Elder Scrolls game.

Maybe i'll be surprised, but i doubt it. I can't even comprehend trying to dive into a dungeon while being chatspammed by people, kids, flamers, spammers, bots, and the like. Dealing with the mass of bodies traveling in and out of locations, it won't feel like an adventure, it'll feel like you're just the next person in line.


You're right, this game....won't be an Elder Scrolls game, it will be an abomination.

It's not quite the same since Bethesda is not associated with this. This will have nothing to do with the production of TES games.

Leecros
2012-05-03, 03:07 PM
It's not quite the same since Bethesda is not associated with this. This will have nothing to do with the production of TES games.

We'll see...

Gamerlord
2012-05-03, 03:13 PM
If it is like the more open-world MMOs like EVE Online, it might turn out nicely. If it's a WoW clone (Which it probably will be)....not so much.

Mando Knight
2012-05-03, 03:46 PM
http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/e/e8/Ruined_forever.jpg/250px-Ruined_forever.jpg (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuinedFOREVER)

The thread looked like it needed that.

I prefer to remain cautiously optimistic, even though I still have neither the computer nor the money to play Skyrim...

YeahThatGuy
2012-05-03, 04:04 PM
Anyone see the magazine entry? It looks like a cartoon.

t209
2012-05-03, 04:10 PM
If it was released what will the canon be?
Empire won the civil war or Stormcloaks won the civil war.
Or Akaviri came and smashed the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire.
I think Elderscrolls could go to Multiplayer section since
1. Empire is in shambles.
2. Canon problems (who should win the civil war or atleast second Great War.
P.S- This is not the only first multiplayer in Elderscrolls. Think battlespire.

Vaynor
2012-05-03, 04:14 PM
Anyone see the magazine entry? It looks like a cartoon.

The magazine it's in isn't out yet, do you have a link to where you're seeing this?

Androgeus
2012-05-03, 04:15 PM
If it was released what will the canon be?
Empire won the civil war or Stormcloaks won the civil war.
Or Akaviri came and smashed the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire.


Dragon break, they all won.

Vaynor
2012-05-03, 04:25 PM
It takes place 1000 years before Skyrim, not after.

YeahThatGuy
2012-05-03, 04:41 PM
The magazine it's in isn't out yet, do you have a link to where you're seeing this?Oh. I suddenly feel as though linking to it would not be a good idea. Forget I mentioned it.

I will say though that generic third-person RPG experience points and level progression are "in". From what I can tell it's World of Warcraft with Elder Scrolls' lore.

Prime32
2012-05-03, 05:18 PM
Dragon break, they all won.Gotta love that Dragon Break.

Aidan305
2012-05-03, 05:28 PM
Oooh, it's going to be available for Mac! Finally, another decent MMO I can play with friends!

toasty
2012-05-03, 05:31 PM
TES is gonna be made into an MMO? Another game I can ignore forever.

I've never paid for an MMO, and, baring EVE online, I've never seen the appeal. I've played a little bit of WoW and some other F2P MMOs and they are all the same things: kill monsters and get stronger. The plot lines are ultimately generic and boring. Your character never feels special. You don't get a very big sense of awe. Supposedly the best thing about MMOs like WoW is end game content when you can get with a big clan and go "raiding" all night. But to be honest, I don't see how I'm meant to be entertained before that. That bothers me heavily.

Nope. I'll stick to my singleplayer RPGs and League of Legends. Now there is a game that got the Online experience right.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-05-03, 06:57 PM
I have never played a single MMO that I've ever liked. Ever. So, meh.

t209
2012-05-03, 07:53 PM
It takes place 1000 years before Skyrim, not after.
So, no tamriel Empire (tiber septim wasn't born yet) but how will the currency be?

Tebryn
2012-05-03, 09:54 PM
I'm afraid it's going to be like every other medieval fantasy MMO: kill, loot, and level up.

Can you tell me any game in the genre that the Elder Scrolls is apart of that isn't exactly this? I mean...it's not just MMOs, it's RPGs all across the board. Reducing everything to their base is going to make them look unattractive.

Grinner
2012-05-03, 10:10 PM
Can you tell me any game in the genre that the Elder Scrolls is apart of that isn't exactly this? I mean...it's not just MMOs, it's RPGs all across the board. Reducing everything to their base is going to make them look unattractive.

That's a fair point. But compare World of Warcraft to Oblivion.

Like Oblivion, in World of Warcraft, players cross a virtual landscape in search of enemies to slaughter and stuff to take. The difference is in the execution. WoW employs a charging mechanic, which reduces combat to a numbers game and an exercise in rhythm. Contrastingly, Oblivion uses an interface similar to that of an FPS, allowing for better player agency in combat.

In WoW, the difference between victory and loss is your build. In Oblivion, the difference between victory and loss is your own skill.

houlio
2012-05-04, 01:09 AM
In WoW, the difference between victory and loss is your build. In Oblivion, the difference between victory and loss is your own skill.

I don't see how the different perspectives make this relevant. Having a competent build in Oblivion is just as much tied to success as having one in WoW is (if not more so due to the silly way the world levels with you). Additionally, both games require "skill" to play. If you cannot get down the proper timing to use your abilities in WoW, it doesn't matter how good of a build you have or what kind of gear you're packing. The same is true in Oblivion. Besides, this ignores the fact that being able to create a usable build at all is a skill in itself, just a different one than being able to click your mouse and hit your keyboard correctly.

Regardless though, I've always felt it strange that the Elder Scrolls did not have an MMO yet, since the world is certainly large, varied, and ridiculously detailed enough for it to work as a setting. However, unless they really embrace the sand-box nature of other Elder Scrolls titles, I won't be terribly interested in this.

13_CBS
2012-05-04, 01:20 AM
I...have a bad feeling about this MMO. MMOs are even more high-risk than other AAA games, since the makers have to somehow steal customers from WoW and now SWTOR (unless this Elder Scrolls MMO is going to be sufficiently different that it won't be an issue), and will be a huge money sink. The fact that Bethesda isn't going to be handling this game actually relieves me quite a bit, since I really don't think they're cut out for this sort of thing. Nonetheless, while Tamriel would make for an awesome MMO setting, I'm always suspicious about AAA MMORPGs.

As for the lore...the word is that it's 1000 years before Skyrim. That places the setting of the game to be around the 6th Century, Second Era (Skyrim is set ~200 years into the 4th Era, the 3rd Era was about 400 years long, and the 2nd Era lasted for ~900 years). Some of the more notable events from this period:



2E 560 The Knahaten Flu
A strain of the Knahaten Flu hits the southern provinces of Tamriel causing many deaths. The Argonians were strangely immune to the flu which has led some to believe they were responsible for it in some way. The flu continued until around 2E 603.

2E 563 Voyage of the Crimson Ship.
A vessel filled with Kothringi tribesmen fleeing from the Knahaten Flu leaves Black Marsh on 9 First Seed. After spending over a year being turned away from port after port, it sets sail to the west and is never seen again.

2E 572 The Akaviri invaders of Morrowind were defeated.
The Akaviri invaders were killed when the land mysteriously became flooded. Despite the extensive flooding, almost no Dunmer people were injured or killed. Legend has it that the god Vivec taught the Dunmeri to breathe water and flooded the island.


It'd be really neat to see the Almsivi at the height of their power and such.

Grinner
2012-05-04, 01:37 AM
I don't see how the different perspectives make this relevant. Having a competent build in Oblivion is just as much tied to success as having one in WoW is (if not more so due to the silly way the world levels with you). Additionally, both games require "skill" to play. If you cannot get down the proper timing to use your abilities in WoW, it doesn't matter how good of a build you have or what kind of gear you're packing. The same is true in Oblivion. Besides, this ignores the fact that being able to create a usable build at all is a skill in itself, just a different one than being able to click your mouse and hit your keyboard correctly.

In WoW, I've found that "skill" boils down launching skills in a specific order and then waiting for them to recharge. In Oblivion, I usually play melee characters, so combat for me consists of carefully timing my blocks and swings. Personally, I find the latter much more interesting, for it seems more fluid, more visceral.

Then there's the stealth mechanic in Oblivion. If you use a critical multiplier-boosting mod in conjunction with an archery character, there's little more satisfying than finishing a bandit lair completely undetected.

Basically, World of Warcraft's format, while Blizzard has its reasons for using it, fails to immerse me, as a player, into the game.

factotum
2012-05-04, 01:43 AM
It takes place 1000 years before Skyrim, not after.

That would put it at around year 500 of the Second Era, IIRC, which is a period just after the Cyrodilic Empire collapsed; that's actually kind of an appropriate time to set an MMO, because Tamriel is composed of loads of warring factions at that point. It does seem like an odd thing to do, although I suppose they could be doing it this way specifically in order to avoid treading on the toes of the single-player TES games (or maybe they're just borrowing ideas from Star Wars: The Old Republic :smallbiggrin:).

Doubt I'll play it--the 14 months I spent playing WoW was enough for me to realise I lose too much of my life to games like this.

houlio
2012-05-04, 01:56 AM
In WoW, I've found that "skill" boils down launching skills in a specific order and then waiting for them to recharge. In Oblivion, I usually play melee characters, so combat for me consists of carefully timing my blocks and swings. Personally, I find that latter much more interesting, for it seems more fluid, more visceral.

Then there's the stealth mechanic in Oblivion. If you use a critical multiplier-boosting mod in conjunction with an archery character, there's little more satisfying than finishing a bandit lair completely undetected.

Basically, World of Warcraft's format, while Blizzard has its reasons for using it, fails to immerse me, as a player, into the game.

That's a fair analysis of the differences between the way the two games work, and I'd largely agree with your point on immersion. However, that doesn't mean that WoW doesn't involve having to learn how to do something in a certain way, which I think is the general definition of skill.

Besides, the pattern of using skills and abilities in WoW really supports the multiplayer framework the game rests on. While it isn't really immersive, as you point out, coordinating a string of skills together to mesh with your allies and seeing it work out is pretty satisfying for me. Furthermore, since WoW is most importantly a multiplayer game, I don't think immersion is quite so important to the game.

Sorry if I'm splitting hairs about this with you, but it tends to be something I enjoy around the end of the semester when arguing for some point or another in various papers makes me want to point things out and argue elsewhere.

Dumbledore lives
2012-05-04, 02:05 AM
Like my friend said this game will devour peoples lives. Time of Elder Scrolls plus addictiveness of an MMO means that years will pass and people will not notice.

Castaras
2012-05-04, 04:30 AM
I'm another of those going "OH GODS WHY."

Elder Scrolls with multiplayer built in? Yes please, would be awesome to run around like a lunatic in the Elder Scrolls world with friends.

MMO? Not going to work. The stories in the singleplayer games are too involved to be converted to Stab, loot.

Avilan the Grey
2012-05-04, 04:37 AM
I'm another of those going "OH GODS WHY."

Elder Scrolls with multiplayer built in? Yes please, would be awesome to run around like a lunatic in the Elder Scrolls world with friends.

MMO? Not going to work. The stories in the singleplayer games are too involved to be converted to Stab, loot.

I feel the exact opposite; multiplayer in the standard Bethesda games are a horrible idea.

However I understand an MMO, plus this is a game series that OFFICIALLY employs negative continuity. So I don't understand that complaint at all.

Grinner
2012-05-04, 04:39 AM
Elder Scrolls with multiplayer built in? Yes please, would be awesome to run around like a lunatic in the Elder Scrolls world with friends.

Multiplayer Oblivion? There's an OBSE plugin (http://cs.elderscrolls.com/index.php/OblivionOnline) for that.

Emmerask
2012-05-04, 07:39 AM
Well I was excited for a second...
3 faction pvp made by the designer of daoc? awesome!

Then I read this: "The Elder Scrolls Online like SWTOR uses the Hero-Engine."
So thats pretty much it for pvp I guess.

pffh
2012-05-04, 09:06 AM
http://kotaku.com/5907598/first-elder-scrolls-online--details-make-it-sound-like-just-another-fantasy-mmo

Looks like it's going to be another wow clone.

Erloas
2012-05-04, 09:24 AM
Well I was excited for a second...
3 faction pvp made by the designer of daoc? awesome!
I read that too and was interested. But I've never liked the Elder Scrolls games (just never could get into them) and I've really gotten out of MMOs in general anyway. I'm interested in seeing what they do anyway because the 3 sided PvP gave DAOC such a great dynamic.
If they could only figure out how to get the social dynamic as good as my server on DAOC (I get the impression it wasn't the same on all servers, my mid to low population server where I was on Midgard had a great community) then I would definitely be interested.

SlyGuyMcFly
2012-05-04, 09:35 AM
My initial thoughts: Wow. Bethesda+MMO. This is going to have the buggiest release in the history of everything ever.

Psyren
2012-05-04, 10:04 AM
Oh gods, this is a terrible idea. At least do a TES game with smaller-scale multiplayer first, people have been modding that in for years...

Vaynor
2012-05-04, 10:16 AM
Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6m9-Dret0U) the announcement trailer.

t209
2012-05-04, 11:55 AM
Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6m9-Dret0U) the announcement trailer.

I think either it will set in
Post Oblivion
Empty Imperial Throne (End of Septim Dynasty
but it said dragonfire was unlit.
Post Alessian or Reman
Dragonfire was lit forever in Oblivion ending. So it might be in Alternate History of Second Era!

13_CBS
2012-05-04, 12:17 PM
I think either it will set in
Post Oblivion
Empty Imperial Throne (End of Septim Dynasty
but it said dragonfire was unlit.

The game will be set 1000 years before Skyrim, so that thing probably won't happen.

Erloas
2012-05-04, 12:26 PM
From one website:

allowing gamers to wander across the entire land of Tamriel a thousand years before the events of Skyrim with other players.
And I don't know the Elder Scrolls timeline at all, a quick check of wikipedia says Oblivion was only 300 years before Skyrim and that Morrowind is implied to not be much earlier then Oblivion.
Having limited access to game related sites right now, it would put it somewhere near the end of the 1st era or beginning of the second era.

t209
2012-05-04, 12:42 PM
Do you think there will be Orcs (who were treated as monster race until after Empire welcomed them as citizens in daggerfall)?
I wonder how greyscale will the morality be in MMO (staple of Elderscrolls series)?

Aricandor
2012-05-04, 12:45 PM
I... Do not see this ending well. I sure hope to be proven wrong, but history keeps repeating itself...

Erloas
2012-05-04, 12:49 PM
Do you think there will be Orcs (who were treated as monster race until after Empire welcomed them as citizens in daggerfall)?
I wonder how greyscale will the morality be in MMO (staple of Elderscrolls series)?

Since they are going with the DAOC design of 3 warring factions I'm sure there will be. I bet a lot of monstrous humanoids will be part of one faction or another.

Vaynor
2012-05-04, 02:10 PM
Do you think there will be Orcs (who were treated as monster race until after Empire welcomed them as citizens in daggerfall)?
I wonder how greyscale will the morality be in MMO (staple of Elderscrolls series)?

Orcs will be in the game, and will be allied with the bretons and the redguards (Daggerfall Covenant). The other factions are the Aldmeri Dominion (altmer/high elves, bosmer/wood elves, and khajiit) and The Ebonheart Pact (nords, argonians, and dunmer/dark elves).

Krotchrot
2012-05-04, 02:18 PM
I just wonder if they are going to go with a Paid Sub model or a F2P model. I'm not sure the clout for TES would be enough for a Paid Sub. I think that model is almost out the window by now but the "Big Dragons" of MMO's. Now I certainly would like to see TES going along the lines of Guild Wars 2, leaving everything pretty open and no one role(Tank/Heal/DPS/CC) out the window for certain classes only.

A friend of mine wanted to know how they would do the Open World Environment whilst still being able to wander around at lower levels. Will they have to segment the world into Zones?

Could they add a similar function such as a "Prestige Up" for lower level character so a higher level character could play together akin to City of Heroes?

Then we have the next question. Factions and PvP. Today PvP is looking bigger and bigger with E-Sports really taking off with DotA/LoL and various other MMO's at the helm. How healthy or much will TESO be involved with such an avenue?

It's probably too early to tell, but I could have some optimism in the IP. As long as I'm not having to play it as a FB game I'm fine.

Vaynor
2012-05-04, 02:31 PM
A friend of mine wanted to know how they would do the Open World Environment whilst still being able to wander around at lower levels. Will they have to segment the world into Zones?

Some non-instanced dungeons, some instanced.


Then we have the next question. Factions and PvP. Today PvP is looking bigger and bigger with E-Sports really taking off with DotA/LoL and various other MMO's at the helm. How healthy or much will TESO be involved with such an avenue?

Three factions, and apparently most/all of Cyrodil will be a PVP area. I've also heard of a system where whichever faction holds a certain city gets to choose a leader (emperor?) from amongst themselves. Not sure if that's true.

Gamerlord
2012-05-04, 02:35 PM
Orcs will be in the game, and will be allied with the bretons and the redguards (Daggerfall Covenant). The other factions are the Aldmeri Dominion (altmer/high elves, bosmer/wood elves, and khajiit) and The Ebonheart Pact (nords, argonians, and dunmer/dark elves).
Admittedly, I'm a little rusty on my Elder Scrolls lore, but don't the Argonians and Dunmer hate each other? :smallconfused:

Vaynor
2012-05-04, 02:44 PM
Admittedly, I'm a little rusty on my Elder Scrolls lore, but don't the Argonians and Dunmer hate each other? :smallconfused:

Yeah, but if you need evenly distributed factions...

The way they describe it is that they joined forces to fight common enemies. So, they hate each other, but hate everyone else more? Also, they're nearby geographically. This way, you have one faction to the north/east, one to the south/west, and one to the northwest, and the middle (Cyrodiil) is the PVP area. I don't think they're buddies, or even like each other, but they're allies at this point.

Edit: The nords also hate the dunmer (see Skyrim for details).

olthar
2012-05-04, 03:22 PM
I have not read the press release or anything related to it.

That said, the thing that made the elder scrolls games original was the combat system. Instead of you pressing the attack button and the computer figuring it out you are involved.

Put that combat system into an MMO and you have entered the LAGGIEST game ever. Take that system out of the game, and it is a run of the mill mmo in the elder scrolls world. It's a lose-lose situation.

Erloas
2012-05-04, 04:43 PM
Admittedly, I'm a little rusty on my Elder Scrolls lore, but don't the Argonians and Dunmer hate each other? :smallconfused:
Well I don't know the lore at all, but in a lot of mythos a lot of groups that hate each other weren't always that way. It could be that this is a time before they hated each other, potentially even the events at the end of the game's timeline are the reason they hate each other.


That said, the thing that made the elder scrolls games original was the combat system. Instead of you pressing the attack button and the computer figuring it out you are involved.

Put that combat system into an MMO and you have entered the LAGGIEST game ever. Take that system out of the game, and it is a run of the mill mmo in the elder scrolls world. It's a lose-lose situation.
Things have evolved quite a bit in server and network performance. *If* they have the right engine for their client and good server code they can do a lot. There are quite a few FPSs that have large multiplayer and EVE has proven that they can do combats with thousands of people in the same small area fighting and have it run well, so somewhere between those two I'm sure you can get a less timer based combat to work with hundreds of people.


The F2P/microtransactions question is a good one. And at this point I could see it going either way. It will probably be announced shortly because to do it right thats a choice that needs to be made early on. And I think a lot of things have proved the viability of F2P and the importance of having an active player base is to PvP and F2P gives that.

Krotchrot
2012-05-04, 04:45 PM
I think another big thing will be working out the Bugs in Alpha and Beta builds. As we all know, Skyrim is still Glitchy/Buggy as all heck. We also know that there are a certain breed of gamers that will take advantage of any and every bug they can find, be it a terrain glitch, or profession glitch. But I guess that's more of a long term goal at this point.

Zen Master
2012-05-04, 04:53 PM
So ....

Bethesda makes the worst games in computing history. Or, you know, at least I personally find Oblivion and (the thing they call) Fallout 3 to be the very worst there is. I haven't even considered Skyrim.

But ....

They are going to go with a design concept they cannot possibly screw up: The standard MMO WOW clone.

I think I'll buy this one on release. Because for all the things they do so very, very badly - they do make interesting stories.

Corvus
2012-05-04, 07:55 PM
I'm adopting a wait and see attitude.

But I knew exactly which faction I'd pick right away - Ebonheart. Nords, Argonians and Dunmer? My three favourite races to choose in any Elder Scrolls game and they are grouped together...

Dumbledore lives
2012-05-04, 08:10 PM
So ....

Bethesda makes the worst games in computing history. Or, you know, at least I personally find Oblivion and (the thing they call) Fallout 3 to be the very worst there is. I haven't even considered Skyrim.


I can understand not liking Bethseda's recent work, but saying they have made the worst games in computing history? There games are so far removed from the worst that your statement is unbelievable.

Also after having seen the screenshots I will not be buying this, because it is just another WoW clone, at least in terms of looks, and it's third person instead of first, which is just silly and not at all in the Elder Scrolls gameplay.

Trazoi
2012-05-04, 08:13 PM
My initial impression: it's the inevitable MMO they were always going to get around to making but probably shouldn't.

The key to whether this will be a success is how radically different they can make it from the WoW mould. People don't have time to play multiple MMOs, and the Tolkien-esque fantasy niche is already super-saturated. For an Elder Scrolls MMO to work, it's got to be more than Generic Fantasy MMO #47: This One Is In Tamriel.

Starwulf
2012-05-04, 09:23 PM
I can understand not liking Bethseda's recent work, but saying they have made the worst games in computing history? There games are so far removed from the worst that your statement is unbelievable.

Also after having seen the screenshots I will not be buying this, because it is just another WoW clone, at least in terms of looks, and it's third person instead of first, which is just silly and not at all in the Elder Scrolls gameplay.

I will second BOTH of your statements. If Skyrim and Oblivion were the "worst games in computing history" I don't think they would have both received the incredibly high ratings they did, and both winning GOTY. I'll fully admit that I find them both moderately stripped down when you compare them to Daggerfall and Morrowind(I just don't remember enough about Arena to compare), but they are both still quite good games in their own regard, and HUGELY successful in terms of sales AND in new customers gained to the franchise.

I'm more upset that they are already playing hell with the lore, what with grouping Dunmer/Nords/Argonians together as one faction. For one thing, all 3 of those groups, HATE, with not just a capital H, but with a capital everything, each other, AND, according to the release, the time period is 1k years before Skyrim. That put's it squarely around the outbreak of this funky flu(can't remember it's name) that ravaged Tamriel, and everyone was pissed/hostile towards the Argonians, believing they created it, as they were immune to it. If the exact date places it during that time period, there is no WAY that the Dunmer and Nords would ever ally themselves with the argonians. Especially the Dunmer, who consider Argonians as nothing more then slaves. They would never recognize them as potential allies, just cannon fodder.

Sith_Happens
2012-05-04, 10:27 PM
Well I was excited for a second...
3 faction pvp made by the designer of daoc? awesome!

Then I read this: "The Elder Scrolls Online like SWTOR uses the Hero-Engine."
So thats pretty much it for pvp I guess.

Oh dear. As someone who plays (and very much loves) SW:TOR, I can safely say that ever using the HeroEngine again for anything is one of the worst things a game developer could possibly do.


My initial thoughts: Wow. Bethesda+MMO. This is going to have the buggiest release in the history of everything ever.

Could be worse: It could be Obsidian making an MMO.:smalltongue::smalleek:

t209
2012-05-04, 11:08 PM
Yeah, but if you need evenly distributed factions...

The way they describe it is that they joined forces to fight common enemies. So, they hate each other, but hate everyone else more? Also, they're nearby geographically. This way, you have one faction to the north/east, one to the south/west, and one to the northwest, and the middle (Cyrodiil) is the PVP area. I don't think they're buddies, or even like each other, but they're allies at this point.

Edit: The nords also hate the dunmer (see Skyrim for details).

or it might be alternate History since the only one with Dragon's blood, other than Septim Dynasty, are Remans.

Silverraptor
2012-05-05, 12:31 AM
I think this is highly appropriate for this thread.

http://www.massivepwnage.com/comics/2012-05-04.jpg

Craft (Cheese)
2012-05-05, 12:54 AM
I'm more upset that they are already playing hell with the lore, what with grouping Dunmer/Nords/Argonians together as one faction. For one thing, all 3 of those groups, HATE, with not just a capital H, but with a capital everything, each other, AND, according to the release, the time period is 1k years before Skyrim. That put's it squarely around the outbreak of this funky flu(can't remember it's name) that ravaged Tamriel, and everyone was pissed/hostile towards the Argonians, believing they created it, as they were immune to it. If the exact date places it during that time period, there is no WAY that the Dunmer and Nords would ever ally themselves with the argonians. Especially the Dunmer, who consider Argonians as nothing more then slaves. They would never recognize them as potential allies, just cannon fodder.

Hopefully, this thing will be non-canon and we can all just forget it ever happened. The real question is, how will Zenimax survive this?

factotum
2012-05-05, 01:28 AM
Having limited access to game related sites right now, it would put it somewhere near the end of the 1st era or beginning of the second era.

It's the middle of the Second Era, after the collapse of the Cyrodilic Empire.

Sith_Happens
2012-05-05, 02:23 AM
I think this is highly appropriate for this thread.

http://www.massivepwnage.com/comics/2012-05-04.jpg

So is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqcn_TPu4qQ#t=00m11s).

Actually, that video is appropriate for any MMO discussion thread.:smalltongue:

Vaynor
2012-05-05, 02:53 AM
Oh dear. As someone who plays (and very much loves) SW:TOR, I can safely say that ever using the HeroEngine again for anything is one of the worst things a game developer could possibly do.

From what I understand, a lot of the problems with SW:TOR come from their own server issues and coding from the game, and not necessarily from the engine (lag, mostly).

Also, not sure if anyone noticed, but I added a list of quick facts about the game to the original post (some speculation).

Sith_Happens
2012-05-05, 04:44 AM
From what I understand, a lot of the problems with SW:TOR come from their own server issues and coding from the game, and not necessarily from the engine (lag, mostly).

Assuming you're talking about the more-widespread-than-would-normally-make-sense performance/framerate issues, those tend to be due to the rather... interesting way that the game handles certain rendering tasks*, which is presumably engine-related.

*Specifically, from my understanding, SW:TOR pulls textures and some other assets directly from disk rather than allocating them to memory, and pauses all other graphics calculations during moments that it's making draw calls. Which means that in certain environments (looking at you, Alderaan) or when there are a bunch of players around, it's often your hard drive of all things that's bottlenecking you.

Somebloke
2012-05-05, 08:27 AM
I played WOW once for about a week. Gave up out of boredom. MMOs aren't for me.

Even assuming that I was interested in getting the relevent computer to run this, I would need a really, really, really different experience to WOW before I ever considered picking this up. And gamer history is full of companies claiming that their product is 'not like WOW' only to find that this means 'this is like WOW, but without WOW's resources'.

Out of curiosity, are there any MMOs that rely on more of a skill-based gameplay style rather than builds?

Emmerask
2012-05-05, 08:43 AM
From what I understand, a lot of the problems with SW:TOR come from their own server issues and coding from the game, and not necessarily from the engine (lag, mostly).

Also, not sure if anyone noticed, but I added a list of quick facts about the game to the original post (some speculation).

Well the hero engine developers said that bioware modified the engine heavily.
They pretty much implied that swtors lag/poor performance issues come from their modifications.

But the other game I played which also used the hero engine which was rift also had pretty poor performance with a lot of players on the same screen and pretty much the same issues (mass dcs etc, fps drops etc) if anyone remembers the events or the free weekend they know what I mean ^^.

So with 2 games using the same engine, having similar issues my money would be more on the the engine just is not good for mass battles side.



Out of curiosity, are there any MMOs that rely on more of a skill-based gameplay style rather than builds?

Well proper builds / group setups will always be a very important part in mmos and rpgs but there are some where you have to properly aim etc (which is the skillset I assume you want?) darkfall, age of conan, anarchy online and tera soon.

Vaynor
2012-05-05, 12:28 PM
DC Universe's combat is a lot more skill based than WoW, it plays much like an action game, but still has the auto-targeting.

In other, more relevant news, I drew lines on a Tamriel map (http://i.imgur.com/BVKNp.jpg) to show where the factions go, in case anyone was still confused about factions. Still speculative, of course.

Image here:
http://i.imgur.com/BVKNp.jpg

Zen Master
2012-05-05, 01:54 PM
I can understand not liking Bethseda's recent work, but saying they have made the worst games in computing history? There games are so far removed from the worst that your statement is unbelievable.

I really cannot, off the top of my head, point to any games I like less than Oblivion and Fallout 3. That makes them the worst in my experience. And thus, to me, the worst in computing history.

Furthermore, I've played games that achieved less that was good - but a game like Moon Buggy or Bag-It-Man or Bubble-bobble doesn't set out to be great, it just sets out to be fun. When Bethesda takes it upon themselves to reinvent one of the greatest computer games in history, and turn it into a two dimensional shooter (in a 3d engine), rather than the three dimensional story-telling (in a 2d engine) it was - they fail by a bigger margin than anyone else, ever.


Also after having seen the screenshots I will not be buying this, because it is just another WoW clone, at least in terms of looks, and it's third person instead of first, which is just silly and not at all in the Elder Scrolls gameplay.

There is one thing to be said about WoW clones: It's a proven model. It works. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the WoW game play. Content has become ever more bland since Outlands, but other than that, Blizzard have made something pretty much the opposite of Bethesda: The greatest computer game ever.

It's not, of course. Except by the metric of popularity. The greatest computer game ever is Planescape: Torment. But that never had a fraction of the players.

Kinslayer
2012-05-05, 05:33 PM
Orcs will be in the game, and will be allied with the bretons and the redguards two races that keep wrecking thier things(Daggerfall Covenant). The other factions are the Aldmeri Dominion (altmer/high elves, bosmer/wood elves, and khajiit historical, with random Khajiit insert) and The Ebonheart Pact (nords Mortal Enemies, argonians Slaves, and dunmer/dark elvesSlavers).

And then Tiber Septim shows up and conquers everybody. :smallconfused:

karpik777
2012-05-05, 06:05 PM
One thing - why so many people overlook the fact it is NOT Bethesda making an MMO?


historical, with random Khajiit insert
And yet a 1000 years later the Khajiit are a part of the Dominium ;)


I'm more upset that they are already playing hell with the lore, what with grouping Dunmer/Nords/Argonians together as one faction. For one thing, all 3 of those groups, HATE, with not just a capital H, but with a capital everything, each other
Yes, they hate themselves - but as Skyrim (and before that the novels) had shown, the Nords actually aided the Dunmer after their land was destroyed/overrun by lizards. So they're not completely on the "we hate and we kill them" stance. And in desperate times (and seeing the plot, the times are desperate indeed) even such alliances could be made.


AND, according to the release, the time period is 1k years before Skyrim. That put's it squarely around the outbreak of this funky flu(can't remember it's name) that ravaged Tamriel, and everyone was pissed/hostile towards the Argonians, believing they created it, as they were immune to it. If the exact date places it during that time period, there is no WAY that the Dunmer and Nords would ever ally themselves with the argonians. Especially the Dunmer, who consider Argonians as nothing more then slaves. They would never recognize them as potential allies, just cannon fodder.
If it is placed but a year before that, then Argonians will be treated normally.

t209
2012-05-05, 06:08 PM
And then Tiber Septim shows up and conquers everybody. :smallconfused:

But what if
Tiber Septim died in the fire that killed Reman the Dragonborn.

Sith_Happens
2012-05-05, 07:43 PM
DC Universe's combat is a lot more skill based than WoW, it plays much like an action game, but still has the auto-targeting.

Similarly, Champions Online. The RPG and character-building aspects are still important (especially if you subscribe and can pick your own abilities), but it plays like an action/RPG rather than the typical "MMO style" and de-emphasizes the usual tank-healer-DPS setup (though you can still play a tank or healer if you want to).

Kinslayer
2012-05-05, 08:34 PM
And yet a 1000 years later the Khajiit are a part of the Dominium ;)

Khajiit tend to join the winning side, but from 1E toward the end of 3E Khajiit hated, hated, Bosmer. They knew the horror of Fargoth was coming ...Then again, none of the other teamups make sense, so...


But what if
Tiber Septim died in the fire that killed Reman the Dragonborn.

1000 years before he was born? That'd be pretty tricky.

hobbitkniver
2012-05-05, 11:54 PM
Wow, this is utterly terrible. Most of the fun of the Elder Scrolls game comes from being a lowly prisoner and ending up as the most powerful being in existence. They'll have to manage the fact of how easy it has always been to amass so much money you'll never even have to think about running out. You can usually d this fairly early and fairly easily too. Really though, I don't ven know what to say. I know many people wanted this but it just seems so awful to me.

Sith_Happens
2012-05-06, 02:55 AM
Most of the fun of the Elder Scrolls game comes from being a lowly prisoner and ending up as the most powerful being in existence.

Technically they can still use this premise. How believable it is, on the other hand, depends on how good the story presentation ends up being. For one thing, the game needs to be full-voice.

ThePhantasm
2012-05-06, 03:53 AM
I won't be playing it. I hate MMOs. But so long as Bethesda continues making single-player ES games, I won't mind its existence.

If not, I'll just stick to my Morrowind.

bluntpencil
2012-05-06, 09:26 AM
Right, so the MMO takes place before Morrowind, etc etc?

Surely the Aldmeri Dominion hadn't formed then?

Edit: Ah, First Aldmeri Dominion, so not the fascists from Skyrim. :(

hobbitkniver
2012-05-06, 10:15 AM
I won't be playing it. I hate MMOs. But so long as Bethesda continues making single-player ES games, I won't mind its existence.

If not, I'll just stick to my Morrowind.

I wouldn't count on it. Once a company has a successful MMO, everything else is either not made or is otherwise made more slowly or of a lower quality.

Sith_Happens
2012-05-06, 10:19 AM
I wouldn't count on it. Once a company has a successful MMO, everything else is either not made or is otherwise made more slowly or of a lower quality.

I suppose this would be a good time to mention again that Bethesda outsourced development of this game to a sister studio.

Lord Raziere
2012-05-06, 12:02 PM
My initial impression: it's the inevitable MMO they were always going to get around to making but probably shouldn't.

The key to whether this will be a success is how radically different they can make it from the WoW mould. People don't have time to play multiple MMOs, and the Tolkien-esque fantasy niche is already super-saturated. For an Elder Scrolls MMO to work, it's got to be more than Generic Fantasy MMO #47: This One Is In Tamriel.

Heh, doubt that.

Speaking as a former WoW player, when I played Morrowind or Oblivion, it just felt like another MMO, but without people to help you, the combat system made into something unworkable, the character creation system made unnecessarily complicated, the world unnecessarily detailed, then the main quest (in case of Morrowind) carefully hidden away so that I had no idea what to do or (in the case of Oblivion) made the only thing that mattered, all the while making the experience as boring and bland as possible in both. I never really got far in either game because they were so freaking boring and difficult that I kept dying or just ending up running around randomly with no purpose.

It already felt like Generic Fantasy RPG #121331, just made complicated and even more boring, so that as a result I only ever played the beginnings of these games and gave up in disinterest.

Basically?

Elder Scrolls has NO chance of not becoming Yet Another Fantasy MMO.

Kinslayer
2012-05-06, 12:07 PM
Speaking as a former WoW player, when I played Morrowind or Oblivion, it just felt like another MMO, but without people to help you, the combat system made into something unworkable, the character creation system made unnecessarily complicated, the world unnecessarily detailed, then the main quest (in case of Morrowind) carefully hidden away so that I had no idea what to do or (in the case of Oblivion) made the only thing that mattered, all the while making the experience as boring and bland as possible in both. I never really got far in either game because they were so freaking boring and difficult that I kept dying or just ending up running around randomly with no purpose.

...So, nothing like an MMO. :smallconfused:

Also ;


the world unnecessarily detailed


...What the heck do you think TES is? There's no such thing as unnecessary detail in a world that's all about wandering and discovering strange/funny/old things.

Erloas
2012-05-06, 12:53 PM
...So, nothing like an MMO. :smallconfused:

Well when done correctly, people are the best part of an MMO. That was sort of the impression I got from my limited time with Morrowind too. A rather lackluster combat system with a world that seemed way too vague to really have any feel for.


...What the heck do you think TES is? There's no such thing as unnecessary detail in a world that's all about wandering and discovering strange/funny/old things. I guess it comes down to the type of player, but there are a lot of RPGs that simply have more information then I ever want to read about them. Pretty much any game that puts piles and piles of books in them. If I was going to spend 20 hours reading history I would read about real history and I've got a decent list of novels I'm working on already too.
It sort of seems like a "can't see the forest for all the trees" sort of situation. They seem to put all of this effort into building the world but none of it seemed to come across in the gameplay. The world should be interesting on its own, not just in written form. If the only interesting parts of the game are buried in 2 page journal entries and quest dialog boxes then to me that is failure at being a game. At least any more, it may have been passable 15 years ago when they were much more limited in what they could do. But there were a lot of other games out there with really interesting and funny worlds that did it through gameplay and cutscenes and not through short stories.

karpik777
2012-05-06, 01:33 PM
Edit: Ah, First Aldmeri Dominion, so not the fascists from Skyrim. :(
It's not like they were much different from the ones we could meet in Skyrim.

Kinslayer
2012-05-06, 02:43 PM
Well when done correctly, people are the best part of an MMO. That was sort of the impression I got from my limited time with Morrowind too. A rather lackluster combat system with a world that seemed way too vague to really have any feel for.

...huh? I was pointing out the way that there were so many exceptions in that statement that beginning it with "It's like an MMO, but..." was practically nonsensical. But, I'll address this anyway.

The combat system aged badly, but I find the world more... real than the vast majority of RPGs these days. It's not a linear set of quest pointers, and there isn't that much flash in the combat, but I'm there to look at an alien world, with a strange history and stranger happenenings, and TES delievers. (Well, Oblivion was a tad... Bland.)



I guess it comes down to the type of player, but there are a lot of RPGs that simply have more information then I ever want to read about them. Pretty much any game that puts piles and piles of books in them. If I was going to spend 20 hours reading history I would read about real history and I've got a decent list of novels I'm working on already too.
It sort of seems like a "can't see the forest for all the trees" sort of situation. They seem to put all of this effort into building the world but none of it seemed to come across in the gameplay. The world should be interesting on its own, not just in written form. If the only interesting parts of the game are buried in 2 page journal entries and quest dialog boxes then to me that is failure at being a game. At least any more, it may have been passable 15 years ago when they were much more limited in what they could do. But there were a lot of other games out there with really interesting and funny worlds that did it through gameplay and cutscenes and not through short stories.

But the games have the tendancy to do both (Well, not in cutscenes, but that's aside the point), there's history and development that the people you talk to will tell you about, plenty of humour and things outside of the books, in caves, ruins, and situations. There isn't big signs pointing to LOOK WORLD DEVELOPMENT HERE, and plenty of the things are out of the way for anything except for iterant wandering, but that's really what I look for in a game, not for it to force it's random factoids down my throat in "This is so important to the world that we'll have you mash your way through it for a hour, and then it'll never get brought up again."

Eldan
2012-05-06, 06:53 PM
Well when done correctly, people are the best part of an MMO. That was sort of the impression I got from my limited time with Morrowind too. A rather lackluster combat system with a world that seemed way too vague to really have any feel for.

I guess it comes down to the type of player, but there are a lot of RPGs that simply have more information then I ever want to read about them. Pretty much any game that puts piles and piles of books in them. If I was going to spend 20 hours reading history I would read about real history and I've got a decent list of novels I'm working on already too.
It sort of seems like a "can't see the forest for all the trees" sort of situation. They seem to put all of this effort into building the world but none of it seemed to come across in the gameplay. The world should be interesting on its own, not just in written form. If the only interesting parts of the game are buried in 2 page journal entries and quest dialog boxes then to me that is failure at being a game. At least any more, it may have been passable 15 years ago when they were much more limited in what they could do. But there were a lot of other games out there with really interesting and funny worlds that did it through gameplay and cutscenes and not through short stories.

Actually, that's why I play these games. That, and the fan forums. If there ever was an MMO, I'd want one where players have 30 page ingame discussions about the nature of Aetherius and how the different facets of Akatosh can be reconciled with the Anuad, and how the Dragonbreak changed the Ehlnofey and whether or not Tiber Septim had CHIM. Where players can change the nature of planar harmonics to bring the Dwemer back. With music.

And that's why I don't want this game. It won't have the type of immersion I associate with the Elder Scrolls. I don't want to know what they do with the lore, and I don't want to see even a single player breaking character in my beloved Tamriel.

Also, these groupings don't work. By Resdayn or Tribunal law, beastmen aren't even slaves. They are cattle. They are not considered intelligent enough to be slaves, since they are half-animals. The Tribunal spent pretty much its entire history fighting the Nords, too.

The Redguard and Orcs, too? I can sort of see it, but Daggerfall didn't exactly show them as friends, either.

As for Bosmer and Khajiit... I'll write a response as soon as I can stop laughing.

Avilan the Grey
2012-05-07, 01:13 AM
Well when done correctly, people are the best part of an MMO.

Other People (tm) tend to be morons and bastards. Especially in multiplayer games. That's why I love single player. Now, if we can organize some good in-forum Diablo III gaming, I am in, of course, people here tend to be... civilized and mature. :smallsmile:

Erloas
2012-05-07, 01:32 AM
Other People (tm) tend to be morons and bastards. Especially in multiplayer games. That's why I love single player. Now, if we can organize some good in-forum Diablo III gaming, I am in, of course, people here tend to be... civilized and mature. :smallsmile:

Thats why I said when done correctly. The game design has a lot to do with the community that develops, and most MMOs build with an individual centric design that lefts, often encourages, players to be bastards to their fellow players. And so that is how the game tells people to get ahead and that is why the community develops the way it does.
In DAOC we had a great community, and while there was a few groups that were at odds with each other, the majority of the time players were good to each other. Of course WoW redefined MMOs and everyone followed suite and the communities have gotten worse sense. Even a lot of minor changes they made to DAOC later, because of WoW, had negative effects on the community.

And of course before DAOC the MUD I played had good community. Though in some cases that was due to common interest (the game) back before online gaming became so mainstream. And in many cases MUDs lived and died by their community. Of course LOTRO last time I played the community was getting better as the game became more niche and the people playing were playing because they liked the game not just because it was what everyone else was doing. I've heard D&DO and EQ2 did much the same thing.

And of course EVE is a special case and community has a whole different feel there. It is both incredibly good and bad at the same time. It is very cut-throat but it also builds like none other I've seen.

Thanatos 51-50
2012-05-07, 07:51 AM
So, the Daggerfall Covenant is Warriors, Warriors, and Mages, the Aldemri Dominion is thieves, thieves and mages, and the Ebonheart compact is balanced?

Vaynor
2012-05-08, 07:49 AM
Here's a video interview with the creative director. (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/07/the-challenge-of-elder-scrolls-online-an-interview-with-the-creative-director.aspx)

He cleared up a lot of issues for me, and explains the factions pretty well.

t209
2012-05-08, 04:41 PM
Note: The aldmeri dominion in ES MMO is not the same one from Skyrim (AKA Nazi Elves). From what I learn from the lore, they are kinda like fighting against human tide.

karpik777
2012-05-08, 05:38 PM
Note: The aldmeri dominion in ES MMO is not the same one from Skyrim (AKA Nazi Elves). From what I learn from the lore, they are kinda like fighting against human tide.
It's not like the Altmer weren't like that since times immemorial ;) Human tide or not.

Eldan
2012-05-08, 06:45 PM
Nah, they were all good and happy friends of the Alessian Empire and liked hugging trees together with the Argonians and Bosmer. :smalltongue:

Kinslayer
2012-05-08, 07:01 PM
Here's a video interview with the creative director. (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/07/the-challenge-of-elder-scrolls-online-an-interview-with-the-creative-director.aspx)

He cleared up a lot of issues for me, and explains the factions pretty well.

It still left the Dunmer/Nord/Argonian Alliance a little weak to me, but at least he sounded enthused about things other than beating up the boss monsters and how awesome combat would be.

The Loot-Everything-That-Isn't-Nailed-Down nature of TES players is going to be odd in an MMO.

(I can't be the only one who collected cutlery in Morrowind/Oblivion, right? ...Right?)

Androgeus
2012-05-08, 07:05 PM
(I can't be the only one who collected cutlery in Morrowind/Oblivion, right? ...Right?)

You mean the game isn't a kelpomania simulator? Next you'll tell me that building pillow forts in morrowind wasn't an intended feature.

Eldan
2012-05-08, 07:06 PM
Building paintbrush staircases was the best thing in Oblivion, just ahead of the Dark Brotherhood questline.

Kinslayer
2012-05-08, 07:08 PM
You mean the game isn't a kelpomania simulator? Next you'll tell me that building pillow forts in morrowind wasn't an intended feature.

Bah! Pillowforts are things of legend! The Tribunal and Imperial faiths shudder under the might of Fort Ihadtokillratstogetthesepillows!

GungHo
2012-05-09, 08:11 AM
From what I understand, a lot of the problems with SW:TOR come from their own server issues and coding from the game, and not necessarily from the engine (lag, mostly).
No... the texture atlasing and other pop-ins are client-side. There is a server aspect, but basically your computer is waiting around for the last function call to completely load before other things can "proceed". This works for an ERP system where you don't ever want a dirty read, but it's a weird coding choice for a game. Given that Bioware and Trion Worlds are gaming people, I really don't think they're the ones who are inserting business workflow logic into the code.


They pretty much implied that swtors lag/poor performance issues come from their modifications.

But the other game I played which also used the hero engine which was rift also had pretty poor performance with a lot of players on the same screen and pretty much the same issues (mass dcs etc, fps drops etc) if anyone remembers the events or the free weekend they know what I mean ^^.

So with 2 games using the same engine, having similar issues my money would be more on the the engine just is not good for mass battles side.
Yeah, I also roll to disbelive regarding the HeroEngine creator's claims. Either they'll fix it by the time this thing comes out or it will be thrown in their face a third time. I don't see how they are going to get around the way they do atlasing when it's an inherent quality in their system.