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View Full Version : [3.5] My Fighter Revision: Brutal, Elegant, Simple, and Tier 3 (...I hope) PEACH



Empedocles
2012-05-04, 04:21 PM
What follows is my attempt to redesign the fighter into what I believe it should of been. A relatively easy to use, simple smash and bash character who is fun and simple enough for a new player who says "I want armor and a sword and the power to kill stuff!" but still be cool and neat enough for an experienced player. This is not really intended for high OP games.

This particular fix is heavily influenced by the warlock and the giantitp concept I've seen mentioned a few times of "reserve" feats, which are reincarnated/stolen here in the form of the fighter's "Tactics" ability. Without further ado, I present...


The Fighter


http://i.imgur.com/XaGIDl.jpg

"Goblin? I'll use a sword. Ogre? Still a sword. Wizard? I'll probably also grab a shield." -Kendra Flamebrand

Fighter
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Tactics

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Strike +1d6, Bonus Feat|
1

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus Feat|
2

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Strike +2d6|
2

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus Feat|
2

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Strike +3d6|
3

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|
3

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Strike +4d6|
4

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|
4

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Strike +5d6|
4

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus Feat|
5

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Strike +6d6|
5

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus Feat|
6

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Strike +7d6|
6

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus Feat|
6

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Strike +8d6|
7

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus Feat|
7

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Strike +9d6|
8

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus Feat|
8

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Strike +10d6|
8

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus Feat|
9

[/table]

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10

Class Skills:
Balance, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Move Silently, Ride, Survival, Swim, Tumble.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Tactics: A tactic can be thought of similarly to an empty wizard spell slot for feats. At any point during the day the fighter can select 1 feat he meets the prerequisites for and for the rest of the day gain all the abilities of said feat. This does not allow him to use his tactics to qualify for feats. A fighter has a number of tactics as shown on the preceding table. Filling a tactic slot with a feat is a move action. A fighter can change all of the feats gained through his tactics by spending a full round action.

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, a fighter can select 1 bonus feat he meets the prerequisites for that is noted as being a fighter bonus feat.

Strike: Any melee or ranged attack (see below) that a fighter makes deals additional damage as shown on the table above. The additional damage is dealt only once per turn, which means that if a fighter gets multiple attack actions the strike only applies to one of them. However, a fighter can choose to activate his strike after a hit has been confirmed. Strike damage is not doubled on a critical. When this ability is first gained (at 1st level) the fighter can choose to either be a melee striker or a ranged striker. A melee striker applies the full bonus damage only to melee attacks he makes, and if he uses a strike on a ranged attack, the additional damage dealt from the strike is reduced by A ranged striker applies the full bonus damage only to ranged attacks he makes, and if he uses a strike on a melee attack, the additional damage dealt from the strike is reduced by half. Fighters apply the full damage of their strike, regardless of whether they normally apply it to melee or ranged weapons, when wielding thrown weapons.

Tell me what you think. I'm going for a low tier 3 here :smallsmile:

Lord_Gareth
2012-05-04, 04:31 PM
It's not enough.

Feats alone are not the answer. A fighter actually normally has leftover feats at the end of their career that are more or less blown or else used to pay the tax on a PrC. More feats won't do anything but fuel Dark Chaos Shuffle, because the feats themselves suck - and on top of that this fighter encourages dipping more, not less. The reason a Warblade is T3 is that his maneuvers give him more options than just ramming his sword into his enemy - and so does his class skill list, which is quite the bit more generous than the lean, emaciated thing you've got here.

It's a fix we see a lot on these boards. Everyone tries it at least once. But feats aren't going to help the Fighter. It needs real class features to do that.

Empedocles
2012-05-04, 04:35 PM
It's not enough.

Feats alone are not the answer. A fighter actually normally has leftover feats at the end of their career that are more or less blown or else used to pay the tax on a PrC. More feats won't do anything but fuel Dark Chaos Shuffle, because the feats themselves suck - and on top of that this fighter encourages dipping more, not less. The reason a Warblade is T3 is that his maneuvers give him more options than just ramming his sword into his enemy - and so does his class skill list, which is quite the bit more generous than the lean, emaciated thing you've got here.

It's a fix we see a lot on these boards. Everyone tries it at least once. But feats aren't going to help the Fighter. It needs real class features to do that.

I was hoping that the fact that tactics don't have to be class features would balance it out at least somewhat. It's actually not done yet though...I need to throw in a few more things. What's written is basically just the chassis and core powers. But you're probably right. I need more stuff.

Lord_Gareth
2012-05-04, 04:39 PM
I was hoping that the fact that tactics don't have to be class features would balance it out at least somewhat. It's actually not done yet though...I need to throw in a few more things. What's written is basically just the chassis and core powers. But you're probably right. I need more stuff.

Then you probably want a [WIP] in the thread title until you're done.

Also, left a question in the Judging thread for Golden Couldron.

Empedocles
2012-05-04, 05:39 PM
Then you probably want a [WIP] in the thread title until you're done.

Also, left a question in the Judging thread for Golden Couldron.

Added a WIP. And I'll get to the Golden Cauldron sometime soon...

Made a small but fairly powerful change and let the fighter change all of his selected tactics as a full round action. Unfortunately, the best thing I can think of doing with this is using martial study...:smallrage:

Grod_The_Giant
2012-05-04, 05:53 PM
The Tactics idea is one I've seen-- heck, and used, for that matter-- before. But, as Lord_Gareth pointed out, it's not enough. Worse, it defeats your stated goal of a newbie-focused class. Oh, don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but... it's the kind of thing that rewards system mastery.

Let's put it like this: A warlock is great for a newbie player who wants to be a mage because there's a nice, limited list of abilities to chose from at creation, an even more limited list in-game, and comparatively limited book-keeping. A wizard, by contract, is great for an experienced player, who has the time and knowledge to prowl splatbooks to find the best spells, and the experience to know what combinations are good to prepare in a given situation. A sorcerer is in-between, requiring a degree of system mastery, or help, to build but is simpler to play

The PHB fighter, with static bonus feats, is like a sorcerer. Your fix, with rotating feats, is like a wizard. But what you want, I think, is a warlock. The Warblade does a pretty good job of this, all things considered-- the list of maneuvers is, if not incredibly short, at least concentrated, and the list of maneuvers known/readied are short enough that it's easy to know what they all do. And they're very good at hitting things.

THAT'S the challenge of the fighter fix. It's not just making an effective generic fighter class, it's making an effective fighter class that's distinct from the warblade. This isn't a criticism of your attempt, and it's something I spent a long time wrestling with. Ultimately, the answer I came up with was to make the fighter class a smart fighter, focused on doing the things anyone could do (feats, full attacks, combat maneuvers) better than anyone else.

That was how I did it, but, to be fair, I was also trying to distinguish the fighter from the barbarian. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with.

tl;dr: Feats aren't enough. Raw damage isn't enough. Fighter fixes must compete with the Warblade.

Empedocles
2012-05-04, 05:59 PM
The Tactics idea is one I've seen-- heck, and used, for that matter-- before. But, as Lord_Gareth pointed out, it's not enough. Worse, it defeats your stated goal of a newbie-focused class. Oh, don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but... it's the kind of thing that rewards system mastery.

Let's put it like this: A warlock is great for a newbie player who wants to be a mage because there's a nice, limited list of abilities to chose from at creation, an even more limited list in-game, and comparatively limited book-keeping. A wizard, by contract, is great for an experienced player, who has the time and knowledge to prowl splatbooks to find the best spells, and the experience to know what combinations are good to prepare in a given situation. A sorcerer is in-between, requiring a degree of system mastery, or help, to build but is simpler to play

The PHB fighter, with static bonus feats, is like a sorcerer. Your fix, with rotating feats, is like a wizard. But what you want, I think, is a warlock. The Warblade does a pretty good job of this, all things considered-- the list of maneuvers is, if not incredibly short, at least concentrated, and the list of maneuvers known/readied are short enough that it's easy to know what they all do. And they're very good at hitting things.

THAT'S the challenge of the fighter fix. It's not just making an effective generic fighter class, it's making an effective fighter class that's distinct from the warblade. This isn't a criticism of your attempt, and it's something I spent a long time wrestling with. Ultimately, the answer I came up with was to make the fighter class a smart fighter, focused on doing the things anyone could do (feats, full attacks, combat maneuvers) better than anyone else.

That was how I did it, but, to be fair, I was also trying to distinguish the fighter from the barbarian. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with.

tl;dr: Feats aren't enough. Raw damage isn't enough. Fighter fixes must compete with the Warblade.

This is making me, heretically, hate the ToB. I'm utterly stumped on where to go from here.

Lord_Gareth
2012-05-04, 06:05 PM
This is making me, heretically, hate the ToB. I'm utterly stumped on where to go from here.

Thing is, a lot of folks don't like to hear it, but "Play a Warblade" pretty much is the Fighter fix. Sand off the name and fluff, tape 'Fighter' to the top of the table, and you're done. You could try fixing the Warblade, of course, which is essentially writing the ToB errata (and/or throwing out and rebuilding Stone Dragon from the ground up) but other than that the Warblade already did everything people want Fighters to do in order to become T3 - and Crusader did the rest of it.

wayfare
2012-05-04, 06:29 PM
The fighter fix is one of the hardest things to do, especially within the parameters you've selected -- remember that the tiers are tied to systems mastery to so e degree. A poorly designed wizard scoot to T2 very easily. A poorly played wizard can drop to T3 or even high T4 fairly easily.

If you look at the T3 classes, they are defined as hybrids -- they do one thing and a bit of another. The only exception to this are the Factotum and the good Incarnum classes, who are all about omni-directional versatility. If the goal of the class is going to be "guy who fights so hard its scary" its going to be very hard to hit T3. I think upper end T4 is a better goal, and also not bad in a party (the Incarnate lives between T4 and T3 and is a very effective and flavorful addition to any party).

So, some suggestions to get you started on that path:

1) Better skill list is a must. Spot and Listen are required to be effective in surprise combat.
2) Strike is very similar in design to the rogues sneak attack. How about +1d6 at levels 1, 5, 11, 16, but allow the player to divide his damage dice among his attacks. Still a nice ability, but distinguished from the rogue SA.
3) Better saves are a must. Kick reflex up to +12 or grant an ability at level 5 that emulates Divine Grace, but uses Constitution instead of Charisma.
4) Fighters have always needed something that makes the full attack worth it. One answer is to grant the ability to full attack and full move in the same round. Alternatively, you could grant the fighter the ability to full attack at his highest attack bonus -- granting 4 +20 attacks. This is great for TWF guys who are basically going to waste 3 of the attacks they've struggled to get.
5) Evasion and Mettle are not bad ideas
6) Something to get out of death attacks

All of these are just suggestions, but its a common struggle on the boards to get a decent fighter made. Keeping it simple at the same time is extra hard. Best of luck and keep brewing -- you've done some great work!

wayfare
2012-05-04, 06:48 PM
Re the Warblade:

Many people see the warbade as the successor to the fighter, just as the Swordsage updates the monk and the crusader updates the paladin. I am part of the camp that agrees witht the fact that the warblade is better, but really wants a simple fighter that can stand on its own two feet.

Additionally, my goals are involved with system overhaul and redesign, with the eventual goal of publishing a free book and campaign setting. Even noting this in my brews still gets me the standard "play tob" or "play pathfinder" or "play legend" responsponses.

All of this is to say, i feel your pain.

That said, the Warblade is a nice fighter fix. It is balanced and fun and versatile. If you want to be competitive with the warblade, yourabilities need to be as versatile or much more powerful.

Midnight_v
2012-05-04, 06:49 PM
I agree with the above posters... on this one, however...

I am really impressed with you work these last few weeks, you're really talented and motivated creator. Imho.
Just as a point of reference, you might want to take a look at Sztany's ultimate fighter, and Frank and K's tome fighter, if you haven't. You do sooo much work that I think you might benefit from seeing what the other prolific creators have done to-wit successfully. Patiently awaiting the races of blood.

Lord_Gareth
2012-05-04, 06:51 PM
Re the Warblade:

Many people see the warbade as the successor to the fighter, just as the Swordsage updates the monk and the crusader updates the paladin. I am part of the camp that agrees witht the fact that the warblade is better, but really wants a simple fighter that can stand on its own two feet.

There are a few questions that make this goal very difficult - or impossible - to accomplish:

1. How are you getting the level of customization offered by a Warblade or other initiator without using martial maneuvers?

2. What is it that Warblade didn't do that you want your Fighter to be doing anyway?

3. How are you going to make something more simple than ToB that still manages to answer the wide array of problems your average adventurer faces daily?

wayfare
2012-05-04, 07:10 PM
There are a few questions that make this goal very difficult - or impossible - to accomplish:

1. How are you getting the level of customization offered by a Warblade or other initiator without using martial maneuvers?

2. What is it that Warblade didn't do that you want your Fighter to be doing anyway?

3. How are you going to make something more simple than ToB that still manages to answer the wide array of problems your average adventurer faces daily?

I didn't say that it was a REASONABLE desire, just a desire. :smallbiggrin:But, to your points:

1) I think a lot of work can be done in optimizing the basic attack characteristics w/o going the powers route. Adding dex to bow damage, allowing crits to trade extra damagefor status effects, making iterative attacks less gemotrically awful, expanding movement ability, and granting better saves can do half the work of TOB. These are features that could either be part of basic combat or fighter special abilities.

2) Nothing, really. I just want to use the existing structure to make fighters better. Heck, I really wante things like ToB powers, but tied to feats rather than mage-like powers. Get Power Attack and Cleave -- quaify for a feat that allows you to target multiple enemies with each swing of your weapon.

3) Fold the vesatility into the combat system. Make combat maneuvers easy to do and useful.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-05-04, 07:21 PM
Alright, so the fighter now has more bonus feats and some more damage? And better skills?

Just replace bonus feats with tactics, change tactics progression to the current bonus feat progression, and add some "Battle Jump" feature at level 9 that lets you charge through any unblocked, straight path, including straight up.

Oh, also, there's a wording error for Strike. "the additional damage dealt from the strike is reduced by A ranged striker applies the full bonus damage only to ranged attacks he makes"

Lord_Gareth
2012-05-04, 07:44 PM
. 3) Fold the vesatility into the combat system. Make combat maneuvers easy to do and useful.

As awesome as this would be in general, I feel compelled to point out that this would actually help Fighters the least, and would help every other melee class leaps and bounds more than them, including rogues, paladins, etc.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-05-04, 08:06 PM
This is making me, heretically, hate the ToB. I'm utterly stumped on where to go from here.

Sorry to hear that. Here's one idea: make the fighter focused on battlefield control type stuff. Attacks of opportunity, lockdowns, movement stopping abilities, and so on. Probably with a fair deal of maneuverability himself. Sort of a combination fighter-knight fix, if you will.

Wyntonian
2012-05-05, 02:44 PM
I'd recommend watching Troy, 300, Lord of the Rings, Braveheart, ect., and writing down the cool stuff they pull off and how you could mechanically support that kind of stuff.

"Oooh, look, Achilles just nailed a guy at 200 yards with a javelin. Maybe a x/encounter ranged Direct Damage nuke...."

"Huh, Boromir's horn could be a magic item.... but what if we had an ability to do a fear effect/morale-based buff?"

Just a thought.

Oh, what would be cool? If someone analyzed the differences in fighting styles of different cultures and made ACF/archetype things for them. A European knight, Italian-style duelist, Greek warrior, samurai, mongol, viking... but with some mechanical differences. More than just different builds, actual distinct, unique, useful and above all, cool class features.

Larkas
2012-05-05, 04:58 PM
I agree with what was said above: while it came out very nicely, the class unfortunately suffer from the same problems a regular Fighter do: they are so called "one-trick ponies", though admittedly your fixed Fighter is at least a more competent warrior than the original.

I've been thinking about this since I made my try at a Fighter fix: what it needs is a change in paradigm. WotC wanted feats to be a Fighter's class features. They failed horribly. Feats can't be on par with class features for the simple fact that everyone has access to them. If you make a strong, solid feat to benefit the Fighter, a Paladin or a Ranger -- or a Warblade -- would be equally entitled to take that same feat.

I was thinking about a couple of alternatives they could've taken to actually make feats into Fighters' class features. On one hand, they could've made several "Weapon Proficiency-like feats", that is to say, Fighter only. I mean, seriously, with all the time they devoted to Sor/Wiz spells, they could easily have spent some time thinking about some Fighter tactics (taken here to mean Fighter feats). On the other hand, they could have made general feats to have effects available only to Fighters. For example, Cleave could be the same as it is now for everyone else, but for a Fighter it could grant extra iterative attacks at level X, Y and Z, and Improved Feint could make feint a move-action for everyone else, but a Fighter could gain half his BAB to Bluff checks made in AND out of battle, and be able to feint as a swift action at level X (please, these are just to illustrate the point, I haven't really thought much about them). This is akin to AD&D's Weapon Expertise x Weapon Specialization: other warriors could be experts in some weapon, gaining extra attacks, but only Fighters could be specialists, gaining bonuses to attack, damage AND extra attacks. A third option could take this second one even further: Cleave grants extra iterative attacks at level X, Y and Z, and at level A and B you gain Great Cleave and Supreme Cleave as bonus feats, respectively. This is a path akin to NeoSeraphi's Weapon Devotion.

These changes would always be in addition to added skills ranks and a greater skill list, of course. Anyways, these are my two cents. I wish I could flesh out these ideas a bit more, but I'm at an all-time low point in creativity :smalltongue: I must admit, however, that the Warblade is a fixed Fighter, fortunately or not. But I'd wager that it isn't the only way to fix the Fighter.

Ashtagon
2012-05-06, 12:58 AM
Most people don't have large numbers of d4s around, making this a terrible die size to use for "xdy" type bonuses.

Empedocles
2012-05-06, 01:29 AM
Although the generally unanimous feedback has rendered this more or less useless as is, I went ahead and upped the die to d6. It doesn't fix anything, but it at least makes them hit a little harder.

Gnorman
2012-05-06, 04:22 AM
Fighters need:

1. Meaningful options in combat. Beyond "five foot step and full attack." Ways to use the action economy to their advantage, something to do with swift actions, et cetera. Ways to use their environment to their advantage (being able to charge at a 90 degree angle, or gain bonuses for controlling higher ground). Ways to control the ebb and flow of battle (being able to control who their opponents target is something I've always felt the fighter class needed, whether through redirecting attacks, shielding comrades, or just forcing opponents to treat them as the biggest threat). A way to target something other than armor class (a wizard can target his opponent's weakness, be it Fortitude, Reflex, Will, armor class, and sometimes doesn't even need to do that).

2. Meaningful options out of combat. This is harder. An expanded skill list helps, but doesn't get you all the way there. Ways of solving problems that don't involve shoving a sword up someone's backside - the Trapsmasher barbarian or the Zhentarim fighter are good examples of this. Athletic or social abilities are nice - a good fighter should be able to inspire fear and devotion in equal measure.

Fighters do not need:

1. More feats (as mentioned, they will have plenty over their career, even too many).

2. More damage (it's not at all difficult to optimize straight damage - see power attack, leap attack, shock trooper, valorous weapons, et cetera).

Those are my two cents, should you choose to heed them. While I think your heart is in the right place (and I don't think you should abandon this by any stretch, just explore alternate options), I have to agree and say that this does not correct the problem you set out to solve. ToB is not the holy grail of melee, though it has come closer than any other system I've seen - it's just the low-hanging fruit. Find ways for the fighter to use the combat grid and the action economy, and I think you will find success.

zegram 33
2012-05-06, 06:32 AM
Strike: Any melee or ranged attack (see below) that a fighter makes deals additional damage as shown on the table above. The additional damage is dealt only once per turn, which means that if a fighter gets multiple attack actions the strike only applies to one of them. However, a fighter can choose to activate his strike after a hit has been confirmed. Strike damage is not doubled on a critical. When this ability is first gained (at 1st level) the fighter can choose to either be a melee striker or a ranged striker. A melee striker applies the full bonus damage only to melee attacks he makes, and if he uses a strike on a ranged attack, the additional damage dealt from the strike is reduced by A ranged striker applies the full bonus damage only to ranged attacks he makes, and if he uses a strike on a melee attack, the additional damage dealt from the strike is reduced by half. Fighters apply the full damage of their strike, regardless of whether they normally apply it to melee or ranged weapons, when wielding thrown weapons.

need to add in the "half." to that point.
as for a fighter.... i dont know if its even a fighter by this point, but:
you could possibly go down the crazy anime route?

say, give it big aoe attacks as class abilities, allow it to gain an automatic critical threat by using a full round action, allow it to create difficult terrain and chasms withsome abilities, etc.
this would allow ranged attacks at penalty (hell, maybe allow it to treat all melee weapons as if they had the "thrown" enchantment, maybe the "returning" enchantment as well. key all of these abilities off of charisma so it can also act as the party face, allow its charisma to work as con for armour class.
something lke that might allow for an easy to use tier 3 "fighter" but whether its still the fighter with all those changes would be up for debate.

urkthegurk
2012-09-01, 03:35 PM
Here's a nice little fix: allow the fighter to give tactics to other party members. Now, with a full-round, they can swap a bunch of different abilities around, not just their own. They're still a front-line combatant, but with the ability to 'buff' by giving their allies unique tactics. They should have the number of tactics given assigned to each target at the beginning of the day (so say out of nine total, the fighter has 3, the rogue has 4, and the wizard has 2). This also helps deals with the problem of feats becoming increasingly hard to use at later levels. Will the fighter even need tactics for themselves, since they have so many feats? Maybe a few, but that flexibility should be spread around.

TopCheese
2012-09-01, 08:16 PM
The problem with Fighter homebrew is that if you give them what they need... Then you are breaking the idea of the Fighter (general idea that people have) or you don't do enough and they stay tier 4 at max.

Look at the Warblade...Something A Fighter with class features and tier 3 but then people say "oh that isn't the fighter" or "to anime ish".

WoTC should have just realized it messed up with the core again (3.0 and 3.5) and created a 3.75 "Fighter" that was actually named "Fighter" and not something named Warblade.

Anyways onto your homebrew

Your "Tactics" is an interesting ability that I like. If you let him share it with the party then let any bonus they gain not being as good. Say the Fighter can give the party Weapon Focus then they only gain a +1 every 2 rounds. This shows that they were instructed on how to attack better but they don't really have it down. Sometimes the PCs go back to their old way of attacking instead of how they were told... Or something like that.

Also I'm not to keen on the name but it isn't to bad.

Your "Strike" isn't really that great, you can already do a crap ton of physical damage... The problem is the enemy has flight, miss chance, and mind raping abilities that stop the fighter from doing said damage.

What would be nice... Is if you had a way to ignore magical miss chance and concealment. Something like "give up Xd6 points of strike damage to ignore (strike damage X 10) pts of miss chance. Or something like that... You know to give up damage in favor of accuracy.

Perhaps give up Xd6 strike damage the next round for a bonus on Will saves equal to the amount rolled. So if you give up 20d6 strike damage at level 20 then till the next round you have a bonus to will saves equal to (20d6).

Sounds crazy but then again you are giving up offense for defense. Plus it isn't as crazy as a low level wizard making a extra dimensional space to sleep in -_-;;;

Ok so maybe make it a bit less but yeah...

urkthegurk
2012-09-02, 12:10 PM
The problem with Fighter homebrew is that if you give them what they need... Then you are breaking the idea of the Fighter (general idea that people have) or you don't do enough and they stay tier 4 at max.

I think this might get to tier 3 if you let it lend people feats. That's pretty handy, its unique, and its fighter-themed. And isn't the Bard tier 3? Of course, they have a few spells... but their ability to buff is what gets them most of the way there. IMHO.




Look at the Warblade...Something A Fighter with class features and tier 3 but then people say "oh that isn't the fighter" or "to anime ish".

WoTC should have just realized it messed up with the core again (3.0 and 3.5) and created a 3.75 "Fighter" that was actually named "Fighter" and not something named Warblade.

But the warblade has magical-type abilities. I want my fighter to scoff at such things. I want a fighter who's achilles heel is magic (which is a pretty big one!) but can easily stand up to challenges and monsters on their own, or at least contribute meaningfully, without help from the wizard.



Your "Tactics" is an interesting ability that I like. If you let him share it with the party then let any bonus they gain not being as good. Say the Fighter can give the party Weapon Focus then they only gain a +1 every 2 rounds. This shows that they were instructed on how to attack better but they don't really have it down. Sometimes the PCs go back to their old way of attacking instead of how they were told... Or something like that.


Seems like too much bookkeeping for your simple fighter. Might be better to craft a series of specialized feats that only fighters could take FULL advantage of... so basic feats like Combat Expertise anyone could use, but maybe there's a special use of Great Cleave that only a fighter can access. And they still have to meet the prerequisites, so someone without intelligence 13 can't use Combat Expertise. I think that represents the level of finesse required to absorb their training. I don't think we need to nerf the fighters buff ability at this point.

Maybe the fighter has to actually be present for them to use their tactics.



Your "Strike" isn't really that great, you can already do a crap ton of physical damage... The problem is the enemy has flight, miss chance, and mind raping abilities that stop the fighter from doing said damage.

What would be nice... Is if you had a way to ignore magical miss chance and concealment. Something like "give up Xd6 points of strike damage to ignore (strike damage X 10) pts of miss chance. Or something like that... You know to give up damage in favor of accuracy.


I like it.



Perhaps give up Xd6 strike damage the next round for a bonus on Will saves equal to the amount rolled. So if you give up 20d6 strike damage at level 20 then till the next round you have a bonus to will saves equal to (20d6).

Sounds crazy but then again you are giving up offense for defense. Plus it isn't as crazy as a low level wizard making a extra dimensional space to sleep in -_-;;;

Ok so maybe make it a bit less but yeah...


For something like this, I'd require them to actually hit. Combining offense and defense, and you actually have to roll, and be attacking, which are all fighter-y things. And ya, how about they get a bonus equal to their Str bonus to damage (so a bigger Will bonus for wielding two-handed, etc.)

Alabenson
2012-09-02, 04:37 PM
I've been trying to put together a Fighter fix for a long time, and I've generally run into two primary challanges:

1) Giving the Fighter the ability to do something that sets them apart from the other classes.
It's often been said, and it deserves to be repeated; the primary problem with giving lots of bonus feats as class features is the fact that anyone can take feats. The Fighter needs to be able to do something that sets them apart from another class with the same feat chain.

2) Giving the Fighter combat options that are more interesting than simply hitting their opponent with a weapon.
It's worth pointing out that a Fighter with the dungeoncrasher or Zhentarim soldier ACFs is considered to be Tier 4. Giving the Fighter a selection of decent options in and out of combat should be the first step in a fix.

Lord_Gareth
2012-09-02, 05:41 PM
But the warblade has magical-type abilities. I want my fighter to scoff at such things. I want a fighter who's achilles heel is magic (which is a pretty big one!) but can easily stand up to challenges and monsters on their own, or at least contribute meaningfully, without help from the wizard.

Wrong. In this case, wholly and categorically wrong. The Warblade has no magical abilities whatsoever; all of their maneuvers are (Ex) and flow from intense physical training and discipline. It's in their class fluff and it's in the fluff for the maneuvers too - Diamond Mind (the discipline of the single, perfect stroke), Stone Dragon (the discipline of overwhelming strength and stability), Tiger Claw (the discipline of savage fury), White Raven (the discipline of inspiring leadership) and Iron Heart (the discipline of pure skill with blade and axe) aren't magical whatsoever, and do things (parrying, dodging, hitting weak points, engaging in active defense) that a normal fighter should be able to do, but is LITERALLY incapable of without resorting to those same maneuvers.

I mean, seriously. A standard fighter, without ToB, can't block. How messed up is that?

TopCheese
2012-09-02, 07:25 PM
Wrong. In this case, wholly and categorically wrong. The Warblade has no magical abilities whatsoever; all of their maneuvers are (Ex) and flow from intense physical training and discipline. It's in their class fluff and it's in the fluff for the maneuvers too - Diamond Mind (the discipline of the single, perfect stroke), Stone Dragon (the discipline of overwhelming strength and stability), Tiger Claw (the discipline of savage fury), White Raven (the discipline of inspiring leadership) and Iron Heart (the discipline of pure skill with blade and axe) aren't magical whatsoever, and do things (parrying, dodging, hitting weak points, engaging in active defense) that a normal fighter should be able to do, but is LITERALLY incapable of without resorting to those same maneuvers.

I mean, seriously. A standard fighter, without ToB, can't block. How messed up is that?

"Yuuuup"

I know somewhere in the book it calls it "blade magic" but really that just means they are so awesome at what they do (mundane abilities) that fighters are struck with awe.

A Warblade blocks an incoming attack and the Fighter goes O____O <OMGWTF!!! That was soooo cooool you must have magic!)

ProudGrognard
2012-09-03, 12:50 PM
I feel your pain, Vilpick. I have also struggled with a fighter fix ( http://tinyurl.com/crdak34 ) which I have also posted here. I have also received the same criticism and I believe that a fighter fix must contain:

1) Unique abilities
2) More out of combat options
3) Many different things a fighter could do in combat.

Some of these things are missing from your fix. But I like your try.

LordErebus12
2012-09-03, 01:26 PM
Vilpich
Wat R U Doin
Vilpich
Stahp!

I dont think removing the biggest bonus of being a rogue, scout or warlock is the way of balancing the fighter class.