PDA

View Full Version : Buff the Tarasque?



ngilop
2012-05-06, 05:56 PM
Hello Guys, i read a few threads about the tarasue and how as a CR 20 beastie, it is really not that big of a threat

I am just wondering what exactly would make the tarasque be a scary CR 20 creature?

I got my interests perked by reading the original French story about the Tarasque and soem related artwork.

and seriosuly a huge creature with 6 bear legs the head of a lion and a turtles shell, and a a poison peircing tail... seems really scary

Picture of Tarasque (http://genelempp.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/tarasque.jpg) this is a cool pic to get soem ideas about.

Calanon
2012-05-06, 06:04 PM
Big T is scary enough :smalleek:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG240.jpg

The most powerful creature i think my DM has ever attacked me with was a Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Psudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Half-fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm)
Tarasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) w/ 20 levels of Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) that had the Codex of infinite planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/artifacts.htm#codexoftheInfinitePlanes) and had WBL equivalent to his Challenge Rating... I learned that day that my DM doesn't like using the whole "rocks fall, everyone dies" :smalleek:

pffh
2012-05-06, 06:05 PM
Switch out all the toughness feats for martial study. The tarrasques 48HD give it an initiator level of 24 so go nuts with high level maneuvers.

legomaster00156
2012-05-06, 06:09 PM
Switch out all the toughness feats for martial study. The tarrasques 48HD give it an initiator level of 24 so go nuts with high level maneuvers.
Dude, I love this idea. :smallamused: Unfortunately, this does not avoid some other weaknesses of the Tarrasque. Namely, it's lacking in immunities (ESPECIALLY against enchantment).

pffh
2012-05-06, 06:12 PM
Dude, I love this idea. :smallamused: Unfortunately, this does not avoid some other weaknesses of the Tarrasque. Namely, it's lacking in immunities (ESPECIALLY against enchantment).

You can also switch out other mostly useless feats like dodge, alertness, greater cleave and possibly awesome blow. Might even grab a stance with all those feats.

Also Iron heart surge.

Jade Dragon
2012-05-06, 06:22 PM
Switch out all the toughness feats for martial study. The tarrasques 48HD give it an initiator level of 24 so go nuts with high level maneuvers.

Martial Study can be taken three times. The only high level maneuver you're getting is Mountain Tombstone Strike.

ngilop
2012-05-06, 06:42 PM
Ok lets say that i give the Tarasque some meaneuvers and stances, like maybe 12 Maneuvers and 3 stances ( not really as good as a ToB class but hey!) and give him acces to hmm stone dragon, iron heart, and tiger claw maneuvers

and make awesoem blow into a passive thing that happens everytime he hits with a claw attack

and I have alwasy doen toughness to be 2+ HD HP instead of a flat 3 so its a bit better than having a 2 higher con in terms of HP gained. but yeah... def getting rid of 4 toughness feats will be good ( he gets 50 HP per toguheness feat via my version so +100 hp is nothing to sneexe at) and dodge makes no sense for a creatue that big. and alertness... blergh

so thats 7 feats we get to work with now to use to our advantage!


Im seeing immunites ( rather lakc therefo) being a big hindrance to the big bad tarasque


also calanon, that really wasn't teh tarasue you were fighitng if he had 20 levels of wizard and a tenatcle beats from teh far relams....

Basically I what i would like form you guys and your wisdom is to make the tarasque a being that the most prepared and foll hardy of heroes are going to try to bring down, something that can indead DESTORY entire civilizations, as referenced in its lore.

kpenguin
2012-05-06, 06:48 PM
Use this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218055) :smallwink:

pffh
2012-05-06, 06:53 PM
Alright for starters how about it creates the effect of the earthquake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm) spell around it when it moves (itself is immune to the effect).

Secondly give it mind-blank and spell immunity instead of spell resistance.

Third make it able to tear up and throw large chunks of ground so it can deal with flying targets.

Fourth give it blindsense (say 120ft or more) instead of blind fighting.

And fifth give it earth glide.

Or use what kpenguin linked, that's much better.

Yitzi
2012-05-06, 07:54 PM
1. Immunity to mind-affecting effects.
2. Tactics that include "if attacked by something that I can't fight back against, continue what I was doing." When "what the Tarrasque was doing" is eating the town the adventurers were hired to save, this essentially forces them to engage the Tarrasque on its terms or else fail the mission.
3. When attacked not in the middle of eating villages and towns, there isn't enough room for flight or similar tactics.

The result should be something that's relatively easy to avoid being killed by, but only by forfeiting the mission, and next to impossible to kill without putting yourself at risk.

Those that say the Tarrasque is a weak challenge for CR 20 are either assuming tier 1 playstyle (in which case pretty much anything is too weak), or assuming that you have the ability to dictate the terms of the engagement (which my suggestions are meant to close up.)

Calanon
2012-05-06, 08:19 PM
Loguroth, Supreme Chaos Lord of Tarrasque

Size/Type: Colossal Outsider [Extraplanar, Obyrith]
Hit Dice: 48d8+20d12 + 3,614 (5,652hp)
Initiative: +17
Speed: 90ft.
Armor Class: 78 (-8 size, +17 Dex, +35 natural, +12 Luck, +12 Insight), touch 43, flat-footed 61
Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+84
Attack: Bite +125 (4d8+39/16-20/x3)
Full Attack: Bite +125 (4d8+39/16-20/x3) and 2 horns +125 (1d10+39) and 2 claws +125 (1d8+39/19-20/x2) and tail slap +125 (3d8+39)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, frightful presence (DC 49), improved grab, rush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: SR 380, DR 20/ Cold Iron, Epic, Good immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, Carapace, Cold resistance 10, Fast Healing 20, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rage/3, Frenzy/5, Diehard,Supreme Cleave, Deathless Frenzy, Supreme Power Attack, Inspire Frenzy/3
Saves: Fort +78, Ref +59, Will +54
Abilities: Str 88 (+39), Dex 45 (+17), Con 66 (+28), Int 20 (+5), Wis 43 (+16), Cha 35 (+12)
Skills: Climb +110, Handle Animal +83, Intimidate +83, Jump +110, Listen +95, Ride +88, Survival +87, Swim +71, Sense Motive +74, Spot +82, Search +23
Feats: Improved Toughness ,Cleave, Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage, Power Attack, Instantaneous Rage, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Greater Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome blow, Shock Trooper, Weapon Focus (Claws, Bite, Horns, and Tail), Improved Critical (Claws, Bite),Overwealming Critical (Claws and Bite), Devastating Critical (Claws and Bite), Dark speech
Environment: None
Organization: None
Challenge Rating:
Treasure: None
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Advancement: N/A
Level Adjustment: -

Augmented Critical (Ex)
Loguroths’s bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.

Frightful Presence (Su)
Loguroth can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 49 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of Loguroth.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, Loguroth must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Rush (Ex)
Once per minute, the normally slow-moving Loguroth can move at a speed of 450 feet.

Devoir the pure (Ex)
Loguroth can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 3d8+18 points of crushing damage plus 3d8+18 points of acid damage per round from Loguroths’s digestive juices, however a Lawful or Good aligned creature can potentially die from being surrounded by so much inpurity forcing them to make a fortitude save (DC 72). The save is constitution based. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 200 points of damage to Loguroth’s digestive tract (AC 27). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The Loguroth’s gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures.

Carapace of Chaos (Ex)
Loguroths’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all ray, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 50% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.

Regeneration (Ex)
No form of attack deals lethal damage to Loguroth. Loguroth regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If Loguroth fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 5,662 hp). Loguroth is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

Loguroth can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 5,662 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If Loguroth loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump. Very similar to the Tarrasque Loguroth sleeps when reduced to +10 of his full hit point he must sleep for an unknown amount of time.

Form of Madness (Ex)
Loguroths visage is so offensive to life that it angers everyone who gazes upon him, forcing them to charge at him and attampt to permanently and irrivocably kill him. (Will DC 56)

Lost to the Annals of history (Ex)
Loguroth is the father of all Tarrasque however having been sealed away for so long there is almost no information on him. Only a God with the Lost Knowledge portfolio can possible know about this fierce creature.

Sealed (Su)
Loguroth is sealed for all eternity, bounded in the pools of darkness of the Abyss. He can only perform one standard action each round. Unless his chains are broken (performed in an unholy ritual) can he perform to his fullest.

Devistating Critical (Ex)
When Loguroth successfully deals a critical with its bite or claw it can potentially automatically kill the target (Fort DC 83)

Deathless Frenzy (Ex)
Loguroth is able to keep on fighting as long as he remains in a frenzy (31 rounds) even if his HP is well below -10 he can still fight however after which he will fall into a deep slumber as is normal for a tarrasque.

Supreme Cleave (Ex)
Loguroth is able to take a 5ft. step whenever he performs a cleave

Supreme Power Attack (Ex)
Loguroth is able to exchange Base Attack bonus point for a +2 increase to his damage roll

Greater Frenzy (Ex)
Loguroth gains a +10 bonus to his strength while in a Frenzy

Spell-Like abilities:

at will- Astral Projection, Word of Chaos, Desecrate, Detect Good, Detect Law, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Shapechange, Telekinesis, Unhallow, Cloak of Chaos, Chaos Hammer, Mind Blank, Dominate Monster

3/per- Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Insanity, Symbol of Death, Insanity, Wall of Force

1/per- Gate (Tarrasque only), Prismatic Wall

Demon Lord of the Tarrasque... :smallamused: imagine how bored I was making this? I'd like no commentary on this because, lets face it I think i can seriously do better... :smallannoyed:

Seerow
2012-05-06, 08:25 PM
Personally I like the 4 ability that prevents creatures from flying when they're near him. Combine that with the earthquake on movement effect someone else mentioned, and spend his feats on useful things (dipping into Tome of Battle, Incarnum, and Binder in particular, to get him a solid array of useful tricks and some new defenses). The only other thing would be to slap on a few immunities for common debilitating status effects that would instantly end the fight.

ngilop
2012-05-06, 09:04 PM
Also I think the Tarasques statistics needs boosted
. as in the stories he was as powerful as 12 Lions/bear ( depedning on author)

I like the lion one as it seems to be more prevalent, at least in the stories ive read

so looking at teh MM, we see the lion has a str of 21, now.. giving a Str of over 200, seems a bit absurd, and id have to agree

but then again.. the actualy SCORE don't mean crap in 3rd ed, its the modifier that does the 'heavy lifting' so therefore by extrapolation the Lions str modifier of +5 gets duodecupled and so then we can give the tarasque a strenght of 60. upping his str modifer form a +17 to a nice +25.
also the thing was pelted so hard by catapults the tremors formt he rocks hitting were felt in the town, and of course the beast was left unijured

so his damage reduction needs to be upped id say to around DR 35/-

and lets say.. give him something along the line of ferocity, so he cna make full attacks as attacks of opportunity (ala hydras)

make him immune to displacement-esque effetcs so pescky wizards can't negate his attacks, i guess give him something like true seeing, but make it an (ex) ability due ot crazy honed senses.

also, really 35 COn.. that seems kind of low... lets bump that up to hmm 55?

and lets make his armored shell make him immune to attacks from above, you know the whole arrows pinging off his armor and such

and while where are at it.. lets make his AC Higher too 35 is crap when you consider that a semi well built full BAB class has a +47 to attacks. so POW =20 defelction AC

and lets bump that paltry SR up to SR 42, hopefully that will make some maghes sweat.

I guess what I want in short is something like this the only way you can really Kill the tarasque is either a) a random super item with awesome plot powers or b) going 'toe to toe' with the creature, you know one of those greatets strenghts is also greatest weakness jobbies..

how best to incorporate that idea into mechanics.. well I haven't the lsightest.

Seerow
2012-05-06, 09:21 PM
Also I think the Tarasques statistics needs boosted
. as in the stories he was as powerful as 12 Lions/bear ( depedning on author)

I like the lion one as it seems to be more prevalent, at least in the stories ive read

so looking at teh MM, we see the lion has a str of 21, now.. giving a Str of over 200, seems a bit absurd, and id have to agree

but then again.. the actualy SCORE don't mean crap in 3rd ed, its the modifier that does the 'heavy lifting' so therefore by extrapolation the Lions str modifier of +5 gets duodecupled and so then we can give the tarasque a strenght of 60. upping his str modifer form a +17 to a nice +25.


The tarrasque's strength is plenty high. The measure of strength objectively is typically carrying capacity. The tarrasque has many times more str than the Lion by that measure.

Lion: Str 21, size Large-max heavy load of 920 lbs
Tarrasque: Str 45, size Colossal-max heavy load of 204,800.

That makes the tarrasque 222x stronger than a typical lion. Even without the x16 size multiplier on the tarrasque and the x2 on the lion, those values would be 460 and 12,800: Making the tarrasque 28x stronger than the Lion.

Igneel
2012-05-07, 01:57 AM
I like to use some of the abilities from the Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9148817&postcount=1307) Community Monster Class like;

Pounce
Primal Roar
Destroyer
Prevail
Counter
Sky Break
Eruption
Basically everything :smalltongue:

Doorhandle
2012-05-07, 05:53 AM
Pathfinder made some minimal but useful changes, for one including an immunity to mind-affecting effects, ability drain, and pertrifcation (but bizarrely, not death effects). (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/tarrasque)

It can also make six ranged attacks as a standard, and run/charge/leap crazy far once per minute, neatly curbing the flying/outrunning issue while still letting that be somewhat useful (provided you can snipe at it from long (750+ at bare minimum) range while still keeping pace with a 60ft movespeed.)

It's carpace and regen are intact and actually more powerful than before (wish can no-longer kill it.) It MIGHT actually be worth it's obscene 25 C.R if it wasn't for the fact that 3.5 epic was so crazy.

Prime32
2012-05-07, 01:53 PM
Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9148817&postcount=1307)More recent version. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2604.0)

Anyway, the tarrasque really needs Steadfast Determination so it can't be killed by finger of death spam. And some incarnum feats so it can pick up flight and ranged attacks.

Yitzi
2012-05-07, 02:43 PM
Anyway, the tarrasque really needs Steadfast Determination so it can't be killed by finger of death spam.

By "spam", I take it you mean "keep casting until it rolls 1 on its save, using a large number of pearls of power if necessary to put out that many high-level spells"? Because that's really the only way it's going to fail the save with a +38 modifier.

Absol197
2012-05-07, 03:09 PM
By "spam", I take it you mean "keep casting until it rolls 1 on its save, using a large number of pearls of power if necessary to put out that many high-level spells"? Because that's really the only way it's going to fail the save with a +38 modifier.

Heck, if you go by the houserule (or suggested alternate rule from the DMG, I guess) that every group I've ever played with uses, even a nat. 1 is still a result of a 28, meaning you also have to have a fairly high save DC for that to work at all.

toapat
2012-05-07, 04:18 PM
I think the easiest way to deal with pesky spells is to give the taurasque this:

Body and Mind Beyond Comprehension: The tarasque automatically succeeds all saves against spells. It is treated as having Mettle and Evasion. Divine Intervention instead completely restores the tarasque.

Terror Presence: The Tarasque is fear incarnate, and its Frightful presence if failed by 10 or more causes the affected creature to die immediately, as though affected by the Phantasmal Killer spell. Fear Immunity does not apply.

Digest Force: The tarrasque can digest walls of force and other constructs made of solid light or force.

and to top it off: The tarasque is treated as a druid of level equal to it's hitdice.


reading one of the topics, and reading both permanancy and Wall of force, the minimum required level i believe needed to kill the tarrasque is lvl 13, in order to create a Wall of Force inside the tarrasque, and then to permanancy the wall. afterwards killing the beast becomes a triviality because you have all the time in the world to divise a strategy to kill it, such as the drowning technique where you create a sphere using wall of force around it's head, then bind a decanter into the wall.

Yitzi
2012-05-07, 06:33 PM
Heck, if you go by the houserule (or suggested alternate rule from the DMG, I guess) that every group I've ever played with uses, even a nat. 1 is still a result of a 28, meaning you also have to have a fairly high save DC for that to work at all.

Actually, an interesting variant I came up with for the 3d6 variant is that if you get 2 6s you roll an exploding d6 and add it, and if you get a full 18 you roll again (subject to the same modifiers for multiple 6's as the first roll, but not with modifiers for multiple 1s) and add it. If you get 2 1s you have to roll an exploding d6 and subtract it, and if you get 3 you roll again (again, applying modifiers for multiple 6s, but not for multiple 1s) and subtract it from your 3.

toapat
2012-05-07, 06:37 PM
um, Exploding D6?

ngilop
2012-05-07, 06:40 PM
SO, i enjoy how this thread becmae 'YITZI THREAD OF HOUSERULES' instead of a place to jot down some ideas to create a more powerful, but mor eimportantly, well rounded tarasque.



FOUND HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=15&a=1)One Topic, One Thread
There should be only one active thread for a specific topic in most cases. Please check and see if there is already an active thread (one that has been posted on in the last six weeks) discussing a topic before posting a new one.

toapat
2012-05-07, 06:45 PM
rerailing:

Anti Magic Biology: Contained within the Tarrasque is an antimagic field. all magic inside fails and you can not teleport inside the beast. spell like and supernatural abilities do not function. This effect does not affect spells cast against the tarrasque from outside, (this negates the lvl 7 DDoor kill, as well as wall of force prisonning from inside.)

Yitzi
2012-05-07, 08:14 PM
um, Exploding D6?

You roll d6, and if it's a 6 you roll again until you get a non-6, and then add them.


SO, i enjoy how this thread becmae 'YITZI THREAD OF HOUSERULES' instead of a place to jot down some ideas to create a more powerful, but mor eimportantly, well rounded tarasque.

Of the 24 posts before this one, I have 3. The first was directly responding the the OP, giving suggestions of how to make the Tarrasque into a proper challenge (not exactly a well rounded one, but if you wanted that, you should have said so in the OP.) The second one was directly responding to a discussion relevant to the OP; only the third wasn't really related.

As for the issue of making the Tarrasque more well-rounded...I'm not sure it can be done without making the Tarrasque into essentially a different creature. Part of the whole idea is that it's more like a force of nature than a normal monster; it's not all that bright, but is devastating against its target and is next to impossible to take down. Making it well-rounded would essentially mean turning it into something that can use strategy, which is really a totally different concept.

Noctis Vigil
2012-05-09, 10:48 PM
Making it well-rounded would essentially mean turning it into something that can use strategy, which is really a totally different concept.

I'm going to have to disagree here. Every description I've ever seen of the Tarasque lists it as a calculating and cunning beast, indicating some semblance of strategy.