Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

[Kane0]

Hey Playgrounders!

To make things more streamlined in our group I cut down and altered the skill list (from 34+ to just 19 if you're curious):

- Trade = Craft + Profession + Appraise
Cannot be made untrained
Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Int / Wis

- Speech (Assertive) = Bluff + Diplomacy
Can be made untrained
Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Cha / Int

- Speech (Aggressive) = Intimidate + Taunt
Can be made untrained
Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Cha / Str

- Acrobatics = Acrobatics (Tumble) + Fly + Escape Artist
Can be made untrained
Associated Ability: Dex

- Athletics = Climb + Swim + Acrobatics (Jump)
Can be made untrained
Associated Ability: Str

- Stealth = Hide + Move Silently
Can be made untrained
Associated Ability: Dex

- Deception = Sleight of hand + Forgery + Disguise
Can be made untrained
Associated Ability: Dex

- Know (Locations and Terrain) = Know: Local, Geography
Cannot be made untrained
Associated Ability: Int

- Know (Architecture) = Know: Engineering, Dungeoneering
Cannot be made untrained
Associated Ability: Int

- Know (Extraplanar) = Know: Planes, Religion
Cannot be made untrained
Associated Ability: Int

- Know (History and Nobility) = Know: History, Nobility
Cannot be made untrained
Associated Ability: Int

- Spellcraft = Spellcraft + Know (Arcana)
Cannot be made untrained
Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Int / Wis, or spellcasting ability.

- UMD= UMD
Cannot be made untrained
Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Int / Wis / Cha

- Perform = Perform
Cannot be made untrained
Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Cha / Int

- Perception = Perception + Sense Motive
Can be made untrained
Associated Ability: Wis

- Manage Animal = Handle Animal + Ride
Can be made untrained
Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Dex / Int / Wis

- Survival = Survival + Heal + Know (Nature)
Can be made untrained
Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Int / Wis

- Disable Device = Disable Device + Repair
Cannot be made untrained
Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Dex / Int

- Linguistics = Speak Language + Decipher Script
Cannot be made untrained
Associated Ability: Int

And once I did that I changed the amount of skills one receives per level:
- 2 + Int stays as 2 + Int This becomes known as the slow skill progression
- Both 4 + Int and 6+ Int become 4 + Int This becomes known as the medium skill progression
- 8 + Int becomes 6 + Int This becomes known as the fast skill progression

Alrighty then, please PEACH away! :smallbiggrin:

[DracoDei]

Putting Survival and Heal together seems like a mismatch. Better to combine Survival with Know(Nature) or Know(Geography) from a thematic POV.

[madock345]

Intimidate seems a little misplaced, because now any kneecap bustin' thug will also be able to lie well and talk like a diplomat.

I don't know how you would fix that, sorry for the non-help.

I approve of the system in general though, I always thought no one got enough skills, and this fixes that withought just spamming skill points.

[Kane0]

Putting Survival and Heal together seems like a mismatch. Better to combine Survival with Know(Nature) or Know(Geography) from a thematic POV.

On the contrary, I thought they go well together. I think knowing what to do (and what not to do) out in the wilderness without anybody to hold your hand goes quite well with knowing how to patch yourself up when something does go wrong, which it always eventually does.
Besides, kthe nowledges have been reworked a little too much for it to be merged with a knowledge, the same reason why Know (Arcana) isn't in Spellcraft.


Intimidate seems a little misplaced, because now any kneecap bustin' thug will also be able to lie well and talk like a diplomat.

I don't know how you would fix that, sorry for the non-help.

I approve of the system in general though, I always thought no one got enough skills, and this fixes that withought just spamming skill points.

Why thank you! My group liked it so I thought it was worth sharing :smallsmile:
Intimidate is a tricky one. I could remove intimidate entirely and make it a different mechanic:
Say you intimidate as a d20 roll then add your HD and Cha or Str modifier (whichever is best) against your opponent.
Your opponent(s) can then choose to make an opposed Intimidate check or make a will save. DC can be easily altered based on circumstances.
How does that sound?

[Kane0]

Bump for the intimidate idea. :smallredface:

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't have a huge problem with Intimidate being associated with the other speech skills. You have to know how to talk well, or at least project your personality well to be truly scary. I'm not sure about Heal and Survival being together, though. Heal's unique enough that it may be worth leaving on its own, anyway, or adding a Knowledge (Anatomy) type skill.

The Knowledge skills, though, look problematic. Common Knowledge would seem to consist entirely of low-DC checks, or even things that shouldn't need checks at all. Meanwhile, Uncommon Knowledge covers... well, everything.

I would do something like:

Arcana gets folded into Spellcraft
Nature and Geography get lumped with Survival
All the monster identification aspects get folded into a new Cryptozoology skill
Other skills, like Religion and History, are covered by a single special Knowledge skill. You put ranks in it normally, but you also have to buy "specialties" in Engineering, Dungeoneering, History, a given locality, Nobility, Religion, and the Planes. Each specialty costs a skill point, like learning a new language, but they all use the same Knowledge skill ranks.


(PS: It would be nice if you took the changes out of the spoiler blocks. They're the focus of the thread, after all-- no need to hide them.)

[Kane0]

Knowledge is the other one I have problems with.
I'm tempted to do the NWN version and lump it all into Lore and grant anything else as assumed knowledge, but that would probably lead to complications.

I'm not keen on having a lot of different knowledges, but at the same time I don't want everyone to be a sage. I'm taking any ideas at this point.

[toapat]

Engineering: Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, and Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)

Knowledge (People and Events): Religion, Local, History, and Royalty and Nobility. Notes: a check of over 30 is impossible to performed as it would call for details unknown without epic level divinations through time

Spellwork: Knowledge Arcana, the Planes, UMD, and Spellcraft into

Focus: Knowledge Psionics, UPD, Psicraft, and Autohypnosis

Perception: Search, Spot, Listen, Sense motive.

Deception: Forgery, disguise, Slight of Hand, Move Silently, Hide, Use Rope

Trainer: Handle Animal and Ride

Survival: Survival, Heal, Know Dungeoneering, geography, nature

Tradesman: Craft, Profession, Appraise

Banter: Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Gather Information

Acrobatics: Tumble, Fly, Escape artist, Hide, Move Silently

Athletics: Swim, Jump, Climb

Perform: Perform

[Kane0]

Another Idea for Knowledges: 'Practical' and 'Theoretical'.

Practical knowledge covers: Engineering, Dungeoneering, Local & Geography
Theoretical knowledge covers: Planes, Religion, History & Nobility

Know Arcana becomes part of Spellcraft
Know Nature becomes part of Survival

How does that sound?

[Kane0]

Updated and tweaked a little.

What does everyone think now?
Also could I get opinions on using multiple attributes to determine bonuses to skills?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Choosing the best of two attributes is a nice touch. The knowledge division isn't bad. I'd still recommend moving Knowledge (Geography) into Survival and setting Heal on its own. Maybe compensate by folding Appraise into Trade.

[toapat]

Engineering: Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, and Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)

Knowledge (People and Events): Religion, Local, History, and Royalty and Nobility. Notes: a check of over 30 is impossible to performed as it would call for details unknown without epic level divinations through time

Spellwork: Knowledge Arcana, the Planes, UMD, and Spellcraft into

Focus: Knowledge Psionics, UPD, Psicraft, and Autohypnosis

Perception: Search, Spot, Listen, Sense motive.

Deception: Forgery, disguise, Slight of Hand, Move Silently, Hide, Use Rope

Trainer: Handle Animal and Ride

Survival: Survival, Heal, Know Dungeoneering, geography

Tradesman: Craft, Profession, Appraise

Banter: Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Gather Information

Acrobatics: Tumble, Fly, Escape artist, Hide, Move Silently

Athletics: Swim, Jump, Climb

Perform: Perform

or you know, acknowledge this post

[Kane0]

I wouldn't mind putting appraise in with trade, but appraise can be used untrained. If I make the trade skill untrained would that unbalance things too much?

Sorry, toapat. It got a little busy and didn't mention your post. You also reminded me that I had completely forgotten about linguistics :smalleek:

[toapat]

I wouldn't mind putting appraise in with trade, but appraise can be used untrained. If I make the trade skill untrained would that unbalance things too much?

Sorry, toapat. It got a little busy and didn't mention your post. You also reminded me that I had completely forgotten about linguistics :smalleek:

Linguistics (Speak Language) is a skill in the same way that Profession (Soldier) is a skill. sure, you can take points in it, but it has no skill checks, you just gain abilities. and at that, Profession (soldier) would arguably be completely borked because in 3rd ed it would grant simple and martial proficiencies, and light, medium, heavy armor proficiencies, as well as shield proficiencies

I mixed appraise into tradesman because one of the stupid loopholes in Craft and Profession is that you dont actually know the value of the crafted item when you make it

ah, i see, we both missed Descipher script. I think i would stick that in tradesman, to poke fun at doctors, i left out concentration by virtue of because it shouldnt be there

[Kane0]

In Pathfinder Linguistics contains both Decipher script and Speak language, and gets a little use here and there.

Maybe add it to Know: Theory? But then it might be too good compared to know: Prac.

[toapat]

In Pathfinder Linguistics contains both Decipher script and Speak language, and gets a little use here and there.

Maybe add it to Know: Theory? But then it might be too good compared to know: Prac.

the problem is having a wide spectrum of knowledge checks condensed down into two checks like you have is you end up with one definite choice over other skills. its why i split up the numerous knowledge skills into 5 groups that relate to the uses of the skills.

Linguistics also contains Forgery in pathfinder, which is a skill that contains 3 unrelated skills that happen to all rely on language. Literacy is outright ignored in PF at that, as a skill that really should be inherent. You can speak a language and not be able to read it, or you can read a language without being able to properly speak it.

[Kane0]

the problem is having a wide spectrum of knowledge checks condensed down into two checks like you have is you end up with one definite choice over other skills.

Very true, with all the skills even. Thats why I wanted each skill I listed to have no more than three within it, to save a few being far superior to others.

linguistics is a hard one though. Should it be moved or removed? Maybe put on its own but i'm not sure.

[toapat]

Very true, with all the skills even. Thats why I wanted each skill I listed to have no more than three within it, to save a few being far superior to others.

linguistics is a hard one though. Should it be moved or removed? Maybe put on its own but i'm not sure.

the worst offenders I made were deception, acrobatics, and spellwork, the worst you did was know theory, which combined nearly all of the powerful knowledge checks.

I don't really like linguistics because it means an omniglot is also able to spot forged documents with a cursory examination, as well as carve exsquisite plates with which to forge money. basically, put the skills where they make sense, as speak and read a language, lie to people, and to know when your business is being con'd

asto your divisions of the knowledge skill, knowledge practical has no function of over 5 points, as the only checks it is useful for can be made with a large enough keg of cheap ale, or identifying oozes and aberrations