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Morph Bark
2012-06-06, 07:22 PM
NEW AND IMPROVED Homebrew Tier Compendium! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391953-Morph-Bark-s-NEW-AND-IMPROVED-Homebrew-Tier-Compendium-3-5-PF)



What’s this?

This, my friends, is my Homebrew Tier Compendium. I intend to examine Homebrew base classes and put them into a Tier listing and add tags for their roles, genre, inspiration source and subsystem use, so that when I set up a campaign and I want to use Homebrew I can just point here and say: “Everything marked with [Tag Name] of Tier X is allowed.”

If you're not familiar with the Tier system, read this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0).

This will be an extensive and most likely slow project, but I don’t mind as it will be a while before I’ll DM again, but I want to be ready for it and ready to use Homebrew and let my players use Homebrew. Feel free to suggest classes, but note that only complete classes will be listed and only after I have had the time to check them and judge them. Also note that this is all completely based off my own judgment, which may differ from yours. My judgment can change, of course, I’m not impervious to good, rational arguments, but usually once I’ve put it on the list, I won’t change my mind unless the class changes first.


How Will I Get Tiered?
Simple! If you have an Extended Homebrewer's Signature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60676), I will undoubtedly eventually come across your stuff and Tier it. If you participate in the Base Class Challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181782) or the Mixed Ultimate Homebrew Arts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246323) (with a base class, of course), you will eventually get Tiered (much quicker if you win, score high or just do your best!). However, there is never a full-proof, solid way of being sure you'll get your homebrew Tiered. The best way though, is to post in this thread.

Even if I don't Tier your class in the end, I will most likely at the very least give you a little PEACHing of your class here. Generally, people with original fluff or mechanics in their homebrew get Tiered faster and usually I will give small priority to people with few homebrew to their name (because it is most likely less known).


Tags
I use a system of tags for the base classes listed below, so that even before clicking on the link you have a vague idea in what sort of campaigns you can most likely expect to use them and what party niche you are most likely to fill with that class. The tags are put into four different categories: Genre, Inspiration, Subsystem and Role. Besides these there are also a few Other tags.


Major
These are seperate from the rest, because I believe they are more important than all the others. Otherwise, these Tags would go into the "Other" category. Seriously though, a class with one of these Tags has something different about them, for better or for worse, which a DM will likely need to take into account.
Gamechanger: These classes change an aspect of the game for the player who plays this class. Something becomes very different from normal, typically at a very low level, which makes playing this class fundamentally different from the rest. In many cases, this could be a seemingly small change and it may not give a major advantage or disadvantage, it just means that this class plays differently from normal, which might make from some very interesting play! Just don't mistake "interesting" for "good". The two aren't mutually exclusive, but they definitely aren't the same.
Pathfinder: This Tag should be obvious what it means. In case it isn't: it means the class was made for Pathfinder, rather than for D&D 3.5, so there are a few small differences, which are easily changed if you want to convert it.


Genre
The standard genre of D&D campaigns is Fantasy. Specifically, High Fantasy in a setting that resembles Europe around the year 1500, at the end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance. Most Homebrew fits this genre as well or easily can with some tweaks (to either the fluff of the class or to the campaign setting). Some classes are made to better fit a different era or location, however. Not every class has a Genre tag.
Horror: While Horror does not exclude Fantasy, Horror campaigns are a brand apart. They have a very different feel to them than “normal” campaigns do, which classes with this tag fit very well. Note that a lot of classes can be made to fit a Horror campaign and that these classes simply fit Horror campaigns amazingly well, often being specifically made for them.
Modern: If a class is based around gunmanship or was inspired by something set in the modern era (meaning post-1800), it will most likely receive this tag.
Oriental: The Oriental tag denotes that a class has fluff written with a Far East or (more rarely) Middle East setting in mind, be it Edo Japan, Han China or even the Mughal Empire of India, Sassanid Persian Empire or early Ottoman Empire. Note that a lot of classes that may be hit by the “Japan” tag (see below) might not have the Oriental tag (and vice versa). These classes may have the “Modern” tag (see above) instead.
Sci-Fi: A class tagged with Sci-Fi (short for Science Fiction, if you didn’t know) is likely a high-tech class and therefore out of place in a standard D&D setting. Some classes inspired by a sci-fi work might not be tagged with this tag due to not being particularly/exclusively Sci-Fi themselves (the Jedi from Star Wars being a good example).
Silly: These classes are a joke. Just kidding! Classes with this tag are most likely best-suited for a light-hearted campaign or in a world where laughter was king (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVDzuT0fXro). Note that with some refluffing these classes could still work for serious campaigns and you can still easily make a serious campaign with a party full of Silly classes (I bet some Batman villains had levels in Silly classes). Appropriately refluffed, these classes might even be among the greatest potential Horror classes.
Steampunk: Steampunk as a genre has really grown in the past decade and the Eberron setting has drawn from it as well (though less ‘steam’ and more ‘magicpunk’). Steampunk is best described as a world based off Victorian England (1800s era) with higher levels of technology that is steam-based, up to and including steam-powered mecha even.


Inspiration
The Inspiration group of tags describes sources from which the class drew inspiration from and may be entirely based off. Not every class has an Inspiration tag.
Book: If a class is based off something from a novel or a book series, it will have this tag. A Harry Potter style wizard would be a prime example.
Comic: The class was based off something or someone from a comic book. This is often the case with superhero-themed classes. Though manga are comic books, they instead fall under the “Japan” tag (see below).
Historical: The class was inspired by something from real-world history. Seems like these would be great for low-magic campaigns, I imagine.
Japan: Everything based off Japanese television, anime or manga falls under this. Note that a lot of classes that may be hit by the “Oriental” tag (see above) might not have the Japan tag (and vice versa).
Original: If the class wasn’t seemingly inspired by any other media named here, it might get the Original tag. Classes that have the Original tag are usually rather different in fluff or execution of mechanics from other classes. They are never just clerics, fighters, rogues or wizards. This tag isn’t handed out easily!
Television: If the class is based off a movie or a television series and doesn’t fall under the Japan tag, it gets this tag.
Video Game: The class was clearly based off or inspired by a video game and may or may not explicitly call out to that by name alone.


Subsystem
Some classes make use of their own special mechanic. Some classes are just bland. Some classes make use of a specific magic subsystem of D&D that some other classes might also use. These are some of them. Remember that to use a class that uses a subsystem you will have to learn the subsystem as well, which brings a steeper learning curve with it.
Arcane: The class is an arcane caster, like the wizard, sorcerer or warlock. They may be prepared or spontaneous and sometimes know their full spell list. They need not be vancian casters, as with invokers.
Binding: The class binds vestiges to themselves, like the Binder from Tome of Magic.
Divine: The class is a divine caster, like the cleric or shugenja. They may be prepared, in which case they might or might not know their full spell list, or spontaneous. They need not be vancian casters, as with invokers, though divine invokers are more rare than arcane ones.
Incarnum: The class uses incarnum, thus having the power of Soul on their side. See Magic of Incarnum for more details on the subsystem.
Infusions: A rarity, even in Homebrew, infusions are the purview of the Artificer from the Eberron Campaign Setting. This class is stealing his job! Which might be a good or a bad thing, depending on how it’s handled, seeing as the Artificer is Tier 1.
Invoker: At-will spell-like abilities are your thing! Invokers don’t really need sleep, which gives this class bonus points as well. The only official invokers are the Warlock from Complete Arcane and the Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic.
Martial Adept: The class is a martial adept and learns maneuvers from martial disciplines, like the classes from Tome of Battle. You’re in luck, as there’s plenty of Homebrew support for this kind of character.
Psionic: The class is a psionic manifester, like the classes in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Lucky for you, they’re also in the SRD, making a psionic class easy to fit into a campaign even if the DM has no access to books at all.
Shadow: The class uses Shadow Magic, like the Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic. If you’re playing in the Forgotten Realms, be sure to stay on Shar’s good side.
Truenames: The class uses truenaming, like the Truenamer from Tome of Magic. It probably uses a Homebrew fix.
Unique: The class uses a unique Homebrew system that either the class’ creator or someone else made. These are often Big Reads, but the ones that aren't are often incredible.
-Unique: This class does not use a unique Homebrew system, but makes a new and unique twist on an existing subsystem, such as using Incarnum for something other than soulmelds, or using power points to fuel class abilities rather than manifest powers.
Vancian: The class uses Vancian casting, the same sort of spellcasting system the cleric, druid and wizard each also use and which is the standard spellcasting system for D&D.


Role
Party roles are important in a party, that’s just how they roll. Like dice. You like dice, don’t you? Long story short, parties function better if there isn’t too much overlap in roles and they complement one another, whether by the same, similar or totally different roles that support one another. When you’re late to the party, don’t fret! It may seem like you’re “stuck” with a role, but you could easily help them in some other way or find a way to make that role still fun for you. When life gives you lemons, you can either make lemonade or engineer a combustible lemon to burn life’s house down with. Your choice.
Buffer: You grant your allies bonuses or minor abilities, making you a great support class. Awesome! More people should be like you, because friendship is magic.
-Self: The -Self Tag is a sub-Tag added only to the Buffer Tag. This designates that the class is a Buffer that mainly buffs themselves, or maybe they're not even capable of buffing others.
Crafter: While some campaigns don’t give you enough downtime to do any crafting, the Dedicated Wright could help you very much in that regard. If you can’t afford to buy or make one and won’t have a lot of downtime, either ask your DM for some downtime or don’t focus on crafting. If before the campaign started it was clear you might be on an in-game schedule, don’t focus on crafting. Otherwise, crafting can be extremely rewarding for both you and your party, saving you tons of gold pieces, whether you craft mundane or magic gear.
Debuffer: The evil opposite of a buffer (often even literally), the debuffer bestows penalties on enemies rather than bonuses on allies. Debuffers are often controllers, limiting the opponent's movement and actions.
Face: A party Face is someone who is good at dealing with social situations. While this might sometimes be partially dependant on the player’s own roleplaying abilities, this class is just geared up for it. They’re often Charisma-focused, have Bluff, Diplomacy/Intimidate and Sense Motive as class skills and have class features or spells that make making people friendly easier. This role is almost never taken as a character’s only role, except in low-op games.
Healer: Often it is said that a party doesn’t need a dedicated healer in 3.5 campaigns. Either way, a Healer can still be pretty darn handy. Plus, this guy may very well be capable of other stuff, especially if he still managed to be Tier 3 or above.
Magic: You use magic, plain and simple. If you use a subsystem, you’re most likely using a magic class here, but that isn’t necessarily so. Beware anti-magic fields, for they shut you down, even if you mostly just use supernatural abilities.
Melee: You get into the thick of things and will have to stand within 10 ft of your enemies most of the time to deal damage.
Moneymaker: Lemme tell you, this Tag is typically rare. The Moneymaker Tag refers to classes who can earn a lot of money. It can easily go hand-in-hand with the Crafter tag, but can also be applied to merchants, performers, gamblers (the lucky ones) and classes that somehow manage to trick out the Profession skill.
Ranged: You will probably not want to attack if you are within 5 ft of your enemies, so stay back and let the melee get up close instead. Use your bow or your magic to deal damage or control the battlefield from afar. If a class has neither the melee nor ranged tags, it will likely want to stay away from melee if it has the “Magic” tag, otherwise it is possible it can do both Melee and Ranged, but isn't particularly made for either.
Sage: The Sage Tag denotes a class that can most likely trick out the Knowledge skills. Sage classes tend to have all Knowledge skills as class skills or otherwise at least a sizeable amount. They often get class features that rely on Knowledge checks or make them better, though this is not necessary. Sage classes often also have Decipher Script as a class skill and they are never illiterate. Ever.
Scout: Most likely is a class with plenty of skill points, the Listen and Spot skills, often the Hide and Move Silently skills, plus also often abilities that make them better at detecting something. Movement options are typically very important for a good scout. Scouts are often good options for wilderness survival games or for tracking as well, as half the time they have Survival on their class skill list.
Tank: A rarity in D&D, a tank is a character who goads enemies into attacking him rather than his allies or otherwise prevents his allies from behind harmed. These classes can almost always be found in melee or six feet under.
Trapmonkey: "It's a trap!" is likely a line you might often find yourself saying with this class. A trapmonkey is a class that usually has trapfinding or otherwise deals with traps, disarming them or setting them for others. In most campaigns, a dedicated trapmonkey is unnecessary, but they can be handy in dungeons.


Special
These tags don’t really fit with the others and not even with each other, really.
Big Read: A handy tag for DMs, this tag denotes a class for which you will most likely need to read a lot. Players, know that most DMs who allow Homebrew sparingly will be less likely to allow a class that is a Big Read! Exceptions always exist, especially among DMs, but a warning is in order.
Expanded: The base class has garnered a modicum of popularity or simply has a very dedicated creator, causing it to have Prestige Classes attached to its name. If the class is tied to a Homebrew subsystem, there may also be other base classes made for it.
Fix: While most Fix classes will be listed in the fourth post of this thread, some may be listed in the second post with the Fix Tag instead. This is because these classes were intended to be Fix classes, but they are very much different from the original official class, which is why I put them with the other ones instead.
Incomplete: The class is incomplete, but it is definitely playable. Classes with this tag might not have all their levels finished and be playable up to a certain level or be made to allow for a character to take certain paths within the class, but not all paths are done yet, making your options more limited. Don’t see this as a bad thing! The class usually only drops half a Tier if it doesn’t have all options worked out and if not all levels are done you can still multiclass or prestige out. Note that very few incomplete classes will be listed and these few, these happy few, are an exception to the “complete classes only” rule.
Roleplay: Classes with this Tag become even better in campaigns that are roleplay-heavy with less actual combat or even no combat at all. Generally, all Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes could have this Tag by default, but that is because their great levels of power become even more of an asset in roleplay-heavy campaigns, as others of lower Tiers become even paler in comparison. As such, this Tag is reserved for classes that actually deserve it.


Looking for PrCs? Check this thread instead: Prestige Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309602)!

Morph Bark
2012-06-06, 07:24 PM
Tier 1
Baneseeker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16241318) [Divine, Vancian, Healer, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Sage, Scout]
Golden Alchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170912)
Mahou Kodomo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16193650#post16193650) [Japan, Face, Healer, Magic]
Metagamer (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Metagamer_(3.5e_Class)) [Silly, Arcane, Divine, Vancian, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Sage]
Psi-shade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277925) [Psionic, Shadow, Magic]
Ritualist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210595) [Arcane, Vancian, Crafter, Magic]
Scholar (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=279.msg1328#msg1328) [Arcane, Divine, Vancian, Magic, Sage]
Shadow Artificer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282740) [Infusions, Shadow, Crafter, Magic, Ranged]


Tier 2
Biollurgist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300116) [Vancian, Buffer, Healer, Magic]
Blasphemous Preacher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75528) [Arcane, Binding, Divine, Face, Magic, Sage]
Blue Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14425892)* (http://web.archive.org/web/20070221040337/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=137596) [Video Game, Arcane, Vancian, Magic, Ranged]
Blue Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12648559#post12648559) [Video Game, Magic, Melee]
Channeler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196557) [Divine, Invoker, Face, Healer, Magic, Melee, Ranged]
Dementist (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1230.0) [Buffer, Face, Magic]
Deviant (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Deviant_(3.5e_Class)) [Divine, Vancian, Magic, Sage, Scout]
Ebon Initiate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163297) [Arcane, Invoker, Crafter, Face, Magic, Melee, Ranged]
Eventide Magus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4037260#post4037260) [Arcane, Shadow, Vancian, Magic, Expanded]
Exarch of the Emerald Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221055) [Comic, Unique, Crafter, Healer, Magic]
Hakurei Shrine Maiden (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hakurei_Shrine_Maiden_(3.5e_Class)) [Oriental, Video Game, Arcane, Vancian, Face, Magic]
Haruspex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213491) [Arcane, Vancian, Buffer, Magic, Sage]
Incarnation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306621) [Divine, Face, Magic]
Jinnblood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312765) [Divine, Invoker, Face, Magic, Ranged]
Kathodos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301261) [Various Media, Unique, Buffer-Self, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Sage, Incomplete]
Limit Mage (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528498/The_Limit_Warriors) [Video Game, Arcane, Unique, Vancian, Magic, Expanded]
Limit Psion (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528498/The_Limit_Warriors) [Video Game, Psionic, Unique, Magic, Sage, Expanded]
Monstrous Armiger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223810) [Unique, Magic, Melee, Scout, Tank]
Sanguine Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268605) [Melee, Tank]
Summoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181483) [Arcane, Vancian, Buffer, Magic]
Tendersoul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11283217) [Divine, Vancian, Buffer, Healer, Magic]
Teramach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286983) [Buffer-Self, Melee]
War-Marked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10556446) [Original, Unique, Melee]
Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298117) [Arcane, Vancian, Debuffer, Healer, Magic, Melee]
Wordsmith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246960) [Video Game, Crafter, Magic, Melee]
Worldrender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9738622) [Original, Unique, Debuffer, Face, Healer, Magic, Melee]


High Tier 3
These classes generally have much higher levels of power than average Tier 3 classes and may have a gamebreaker or two, but nothing that would bump them up to Tier 2. Effectively, this is a kind of "Borderline Tier 2-3", but for purposes of player class choice I consider this Tier 3, personally.
Avatar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219109) [Divine, Vancian, Face, Healer, Magic, Melee]
Blade Scholar (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525490/Blade_Scholar_(new_martial_adept_base_class)) [Martial Adept, Melee, Sage]
Botanist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301806) [Unique, Buffer-Self, Healer, Magic, Scout]
Chronoshifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13663397) [Original, Unique, Buffer, Debuffer, Healer, Magic, Expanded]
Courtier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16142383) [Arcane, Vancian, Buffer, Face, Magic, Sage]
Dark Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295674) [Video Game, Unique, Buffer, Debuffer, Healer, Magic, Melee, Tank]
Delirium Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301741) [Unique, Debuffer, Melee]
Elder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13291540&postcount=5) [Divine, Vancian]
Emberhaunt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158205) [Arcane, Vancian, Magic, Ranged, Sage]
Eternal Royal (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4589.msg64118#msg64118) [Video Game, Martial Adept, Face, Melee, Roleplay]
Grandmaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12004458) [Arcane, Vancian, Buffer, Healer, Magic]
Greybeard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251770) [Video Game, Unique, Buffer-Self, Face, Magic, Melee, Expanded]
Gunslinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174415) [Modern, Martial Adept, Ranged, Scout]
Harrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148) [Horror, Unique, Debuffer, Face, Magic, Melee]
Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276481) [Tank, Melee, Fix]
Legendary Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306784) [Martial Adept, Face, Melee]
Machinist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262484) [Gamechanger, Steampunk, Martial Adept, Crafter, Melee, Sage, Roleplay]
Magister (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139935) [Arcane-Unique, Magic, Sage]
Nord's Blade (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4779) [Gamechanger, Martial Adept, Face, Melee]
Ozodrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153536) [Horror, Melee, Scout, Tank]
Planeswalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189767) [Arcane, Vancian, Face, Healer, Magic, Sage, Scout]
Primordialist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237502) [Martial Adept, Face, Melee, Sage, Scout]
Protean Chimera (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312741) [Magic, Melee, Scout, Tank]
Rappeler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307935) [Arcane, Vancian, Buffer, Magic, Sage]
Scholar (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=149.msg496#msg496) [Video Game, Martial Adept, Melee, Sage]
Shapeshifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239085) [Arcane, Vancian, Magic, Melee, Scout]
Son of Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248319) [Divine, Vancian, Buffer, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Sage]
Soulblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208842) [Incarnum-Unique, Martial Adept, Magic, Melee]
Soulweaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236890) [Horror, Face, Healer, Magic]
Stoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13489003) [Binding-Unique, Face, Melee, Ranged, Trapmonkey]
Teleporter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168948) [Gamechanger, Arcane, Vancian, Face, Magic]
Temporalist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308549) [Gamechanger, Face, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Scout]
Vector Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228402) [Japan, Arcane, Vancian, Debuffer, Face, Magic, Ranged]
Void Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159776) [Gamechanger, Arcane, Vancian, Magic, Sage]
Warmaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15557410#post15557410) [Unique, Magic, Melee, Sage]
Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244973) [Unique, Face, Healer, Magic, Melee, Scout]
Xenoalchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205119) [Horror, Unique, Healer, Sage, Expanded]


Tier 3
Battle Psychic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80145) [Martial Adept, Psionics, Magic, Melee, Scout]
Bemäntelter Schatten (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=515) [Binding, Psionic, Shadow, Face, Magic]
Chorister (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13303725) [Divine, Vancian, Buffer, Face, Healer, Magic]
Chozo Warrior (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=29.0) [Sci-Fi, Video Game, Melee, Ranged, Scout]
Companion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12968174&postcount=15) [Arcane, Vancian, Face, Magic, Sage, Scout]
Conceptualist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237509) [Unique, Magic, Melee, Ranged]
Connoisseur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232699) [Horror, Unique, Face, Melee, Expanded]
Convoker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5344) [Arcane, Vancian, Magic]
Corrupted (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1457.msg145525#msg145525) [Martial Adept, Melee]
Dawnblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190289) [Divine, Vancian, Healer, Magic, Melee]
Debaser (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7624907) [Arcane, Vancian, Debuffer, Face, Magic, Fix]
Devil Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310386) [Video Game, Divine, Vancian, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Sage, Scout]
Divine Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267853) [Divine, Vancian, Face, Magic, Melee, Ranged]
Dovahkiin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250268) [Video Game, Arcane, Unique, Buffer-Self, Face, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Expanded]
Dovahkiin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228784) [Video Game, Unique, Buffer-Self, Face, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Sage, Scout, Incomplete]
Earth Dreamer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155003) [Arcane, Vancian, Magic]
Engineer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114229) [Steampunk, Unique, Crafter]
False Prophet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15322094#post15322094) [Video Game, Magic, Sage]
Flowists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264330) [Original, Unique, Buffer-Self, Face, Melee, Sage, Scout]
Gambler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10423607&postcount=14) [Buffer, Debuffer, Face]
Green Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310214) [Divine, Vancian, Face, Healer, Melee]
Grimwight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253826) [Horror, Unique, Melee, Scout, Expanded]
Hemoscribe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176746) [Horror, Original, Unique, Face, Magic, Melee, Scout, Incomplete]
Improviser (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255381) [Martial Adept-Unique, Healer, Melee, Scout, Trapmonkey]
Indigo Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199905) [Arcane, Invoker-Unique, Buffer-Self, Face, Magic, Melee, Scout, Trapmonkey]
Invisible Guardian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13605675) [Face, Melee, Scout, Tank]
Jack of All Blades (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257154) [Martial Adept, Melee]
Kaijin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258938) [Modern, Japan, Martial Adept, Buffer-Self, Melee, Ranged]
Kensei of the Five Rings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12041518) [Martial Adept, Melee, Scout]
Kyodai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300555) [Japan, Melee]
Librarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12465524) [Arcane, Divine, Martial Adept, Sage]
Limit Dragoon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168962) [Video Game, Unique, Face, Melee, Tank, Expanded]
Lord of the Uttercold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195580) [Japan, Arcane, Vancian, Face, Magic, Melee]
Magus of Blades (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214568) [Arcane, Martial Adept, Vancian, Buffer, Magic, Melee]
Malefactor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202885) [Unique, Debuffer, Face, Magic, Melee, Tank, Fix]
Mamono (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7112.0) [Unique, Magic, Melee, Scout]
Masque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244664) [Horror, Divine, Vancian, Magic, Melee]
Olympian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13322347&postcount=11) [Pathfinder, Face, Melee]
Overdrive Knight (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528458/Overdrive_Master_P.E.A.C.H_by_Moonsprite) [Video Game, Face, Magic, Melee, Expanded]
Primal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264875) [Arcane, Invoker, Magic, Melee, Scout]
Sagittarius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117933) [Healer, Ranged, Scout]
Sentai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264677) [Modern, Japan, Martial Adept, Expanded, Buffer, Face, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Scout, Tank]
Shield Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192533) [Martial Adept, Melee, Tank]
Soul Devourer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211046) [Invoker, Debuffer, Face, Magic, Melee]
Soul Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4651796) [Incarnum, Martial Adept, Magic, Melee, Scout]
Spellbound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252415) [Original, Arcane-Unique, Buffer-Self]
Storm Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157750) [Arcane, Vancian, Magic, Ranged, Scout]
Sublime Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156145) [Martial Adept, Ranged, Scout]
Sublime Matador (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157657) [Martial Adept, Face, Melee, Sage]
Sublime Sohei (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10677497&postcount=13) [Martial Adept, Melee, Fix]
Traveler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153977) [Psionic, Melee, Scout]
Trueforged (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248364) [Melee, Ranged]
Warlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83559) [Martial Adept, Buffer, Face, Melee, Tank]
Warrior-Poet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235823) [Martial Adept, Buffer, Face, Melee]
Wavekeeper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159251) [Arcane, Vancian, Magic, Scout]


Borderline Tier 3-4
High Tier 4 or Low Tier 3, either way they mean the same: classes that are just a little behind in either versatility or power to really make the Tier 3 cut, but standing above most Tier 4s, they could fall in either Tier depending on the level of optimization used.
Arbiter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12154375) [Divine, Vancian, Buffer, Debuffer, Face, Magic, Scout]
Blackguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270363) [Divine, Invoker, Face, Magic, Melee]
Blood King (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213822) [Unique, Face, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Gamechanger]
Cardcaller (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163641) [Video Game, Unique, Magic, Scout]
Cultist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4037233#post4037233) [Divine, Shadow, Face, Magic, Ranged, Expanded]
Dabblemaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8919949) [Original, Arcane, Binding, Divine, Incarnum, Infusions, Invoker, Martial Adept, Psionic, Shadow, Truenames, Buffer, Face, Magic, Sage, Scout]
Destined Hero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248161) [Gamechanger, Melee, Ranged, Tank]
Disciple of Anima (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289855) [Unique, Buffer, Debuffer, Healer, Magic]
Elemental Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311076) [Invoker, Magic, Ranged]
Gaoler of Frostflame (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246724) [Unique, Debuffer, Magic, Ranged]
Iron Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287835) [Pathfinder, Steampunk, Magic, Ranged]
Limit Freak (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528498/The_Limit_Warriors) [Horror, Video Game, Unique, Melee, Expanded]
Machiavellian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221950) [Original, Any Genre, Buffer, Debuffer, Face]
Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276) [Steampunk, Magic, Melee]
Pariah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243695) [Horror, Unique]
Runewarden (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292636) [Arcane, Vancian, Magic, Melee]
Solar Ascendant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191088) [Magic, Melee, Ranged]
Soulblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288404) [Incarnum, Melee]
Sniper (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2759.0) [Ranged, Scout, Fix]
Spiderblood Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240167) [Comic, Melee, Scout, Trapmonkey]
Tainted Scion of Venom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13337259) [Comic, Melee, Scout]
Twilight Caster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8074169&postcount=5) [Unique, Magic, Incomplete]
Witch Doctor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198321) [Horror, Buffer, Debuffer, Face, Magic, Incomplete]


Tier 4
Note that Tier 4 is not bad. Tier 4 is is, after all, "capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining." Many great classes are Tier 4.
Alchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245132) [Invoker, Crafter, Magic, Sage]
Barrier Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177861) [Arcane, Vancian, Magic]
Battle Shinigami (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_Shinigami_(3.5e_Class)) [Oriental, Japan, Divine, Vancian, Magic, Melee, Scout]
Biskmatar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15261775&postcount=9) [Video Game, Melee, Tank]
Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120539) [Martial Adept-Unique, Melee]
Chosen Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13007726) [Video Game, Buffer, Magic, Melee, Scout]
Death Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186986) [Video Game, Unique, Magic, Melee]
Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312952) [Melee]
Dualists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210101) [Gamechanger, Original, Melee]
Ephemeral Watcher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4037431#post4037431) [Shadow, Melee, Ranged, Scout, Expanded]
Esper Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169532) [Television, Incarnum-Unique, Magic]
Gentle Fist Adept (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=30) [Oriental, Japan, Melee, Scout]
Jester (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Jester_(3.5e_Class)) [Arcane, Vancian, Face, Magic, Melee, Tank]
Kido Shinigami (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Kido_Shinigami_(3.5e_Class)) [Oriental, Japan, Divine, Vancian, Magic, Melee, Scout]
Limit Knight (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528498/The_Limit_Warriors) [Video Game, Unique, Crafter, Melee, Tank, Expanded]
Limit Monk (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528498/The_Limit_Warriors) [Video Game, Unique, Melee, Expanded]
Limit Ninja (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528498/The_Limit_Warriors) [Video Game, Unique, Melee, Scout, Expanded]
Limit Sniper (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528498/The_Limit_Warriors) [Video Game, Unique, Crafter, Ranged, Expanded]
Magician (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209772) [Arcane, Vancian, Crafter, Magic]
Mind-Filcher (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2474.0) [Magic, Ranged, Scout]
Muse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13197229) [Face, Magic]
Plague Doctor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214607) [Buffer, Debuffer, Healer, Melee]
Psychotherapist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16050743) [Unique, Face, Magic, Sage]
Punchmaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204494) [Melee]
Pyromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12792207&postcount=13) [Face, Healer, Magic, Ranged]
Runner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227714) [Melee, Scout]
Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13196296) [Melee, Tank]
Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226720) [Melee, Tank]
Skirmisher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307113) [Animation, Magic, Melee, Scout]
Solar Avatar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271411) [Comic, Melee, Scout]
Speedster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11922343) [Comic, Melee, Scout]
Thief-Acrobat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Thief-Acrobat_(3.5e_Class)) [Melee, Scout]
Werewolf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309502) [Melee, Scout, Tank]
White Clad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132494) [Video Game, Face, Melee, Scout, Expanded]
Z-Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206449) [Japan, Melee]


Tier 5
If your class is here, consider reworking it. Unless Tier 5 was your aim.
Barkeeper (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Barkeeper_(3.5e_Class)) [Crafter, Face, Melee]
Botanimorphist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12775694&postcount=12) [Magic, Melee]
Channeler of the Planes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13488843) [Divine, Vancian, Magic]
Fanatic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229861) [Face, Melee]
Farmer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12299738&postcount=5) [Silly, Historical, Melee]
Grappler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247200) [Melee]
Handyman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219124) [Face, Healer, Sage, Scout, Trapmonkey]
Hollow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4037247#post4037247) [Shadow, Melee, Scout, Expanded]
Liberal Arts Major (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306942) [Silly]
Midnight Seer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4037440#post4037440) [Shadow, Magic, Sage]
Swift Kinetic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13824168&postcount=6) [Comic, Ranged, Scout, Trapmonkey]


Tier 6
Pity the common man, for he is powerless.
Redshirt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12305541&postcount=6) [Gamechanger, Silly, Television, Buffer, Debuffer, Tank]


Variable Tier
Assume that you [u]always need special permission to play one of these classes if I am DMing for you. This is because depending on your choices within the class, these classes can vary from Tier 5 all the way up to Tier 2 or even 1.
Servant Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16080494) [Japan, Arcane, Vancian, Healer, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Sage, Scout]
It starts as a decent Tier 4 class that slowly creeps upwards as you gain access to more Heroic Spirits, but never gets into Tier 3, lingering in Borderline 3-4. Anyone who takes Assassin early has access to a low-level gamebreaker, making them briefly Tier 2, but this balances out from level 6-7 onwards.
Stylist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11180420) [Face, Magic, Sage, Trapmonkey]
Most of the Styles are Tier 4, which combined make a decent Tier 3 or at least a Borderline Tier 3-4 class, but some of the Styles bring it up to Tier 2. Beastly and Cosplay in particular.
Traveller (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12985985) [Original, Arcane, Divine, Face, Sage]
The Traveller is a Variable Tier class because it’s casting mechanic is effectively like the cleric’s in practice and they can choose what class’ spell list they have access to. Thus, they can choose the Cleric, Druid or Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, which would make them Tier 1. Any other class’ spell list that includes spells up to level 9 will make the class a Tier 3. Choosing a spell list that only goes up to level 4, 5 or 6 makes this class Tier 4.

Morph Bark
2012-06-06, 07:25 PM
Subsystems and Expansions
Sometimes a homebrewer creates a great addition to an existing subsystem, sometimes one creates an entirely new subsystem and sometimes there just are those classes that gain a following and a boatload of PrCs and other connected material. That is what this post is all about.


Binding
There haven't been any Binding base classes other than the Dabblemaster (and now the Blasphemous Preacher) as far as I've found, but there have been a lot of additional materials created for the Binder's use, especially vestiges. A compilation of that material can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16203724#post16203724).


Bloodlines
Bloodlines are something that was a unique thing added in Unearthed Arcana and expanded upon by Welknair. His Blood King class utilizes them heavily, and a list of them can be found here as soon as they've been collected.


Gramarie
Gramarie is a homebrew subsytem created by Kellus. A lot of extra material has been created, a collection of which can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317762).


Invokers
Some people have created a lot of new invocations or other material to go with classes similar to the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept, such as ErrantX's Ebon Initiate and Channeler. Some examples of sets of invocations include the following: Animal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265919), Celestial (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245205), Elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232064), Necromantic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244815), various (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255160). There are also ACFs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287276).


Limit Warriors
The Limit Warriors (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528498/The_Limit_Warriors) (also including the Limit Dragoon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168962)) are a group of eight classes that all use a unique subsystem that allows them to fill up their 'Limit Gauge' as they take damage and use the points in this Limit Gauge to fuel special abilities. The Limit Knight and Limit Sniper can be made more useable by tweaking their weapons to be easier and cheaper to fix and upgrade and allowing the Limit Sniper to shoot more often. Otherwise, the classes are fully useable, as long as you keep up their Constitution score for their hit points. The Limit Break mechanic was given a new spin by Ziegander here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239002).


Tome of Battle
Tome of Battle is probably the book with the most homebrew support ever. A lot of homebrewers have at least one piece of homebrew to their name that somehow involves Tome of Battle. Because quite a few of the classes on the Tier lists above and below are martial adepts, here is a listing of a number of homebrew martial disciplines that have the Bark Seal of Approval.
Empty Word (x)

Creator: --. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --


All disciplines can be found in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13604377#post13604377) post and the one after that. Do note that at current these are not yet generally rated on their own Tiers, quality, usefulness, completeness and theme.

Morph Bark
2012-06-06, 07:26 PM
Homebrew Fix Classes Tiers
This section of the Homebrew Tier Compendium is different from the Tiering above. That is because this section specifically deals with Fix Classes. Fix Classes are homebrew classes that have the stated intended purpose of fixing, retooling, revising or reworking official D&D classes. Classes that are stated to be intended derivatives of official classes to replace a part of them, such as specialist Sorcerers in the same vein as Beguilers, Dread Necromancers and Warmages, are also to be listed here.

Fix classes will generally only be listed if they actually up the Tier of the class they are supposed to fix or lower it in case of Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes. Fix classes that are different enough from the original may form an exception, though it is most likely no longer a Fix, but an actual, full-blown homebrew class.


Tags
The Tags in this section are a little different. Instead of filling in Inspiration and Genre (which are prettymuch the same as the original, official D&D classes they are supposed to fix), these classes get Tags that show who made them and what official classes they replace. This is because some DMs may think certain homebrewers have a great general balance point or execution of concept, thus allowing their work, but not those of others. The classes get Tags that show what classes they are supposed to replace as well, even though most of the Fix classes are named the same as the class they are supposed to replace. This is because it is not obvious in all cases.


Tier 1
Fightificer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12108951&postcount=33) [Ziegander, Fighter -- Martial Adept]


Tier 2
Summoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303603) [T.G. Oskar, Summoner]

High Tier 3
These classes generally have much higher levels of power than average Tier 3 classes and may have a gamebreaker or two, but nothing that would bump them up to Tier 2.
Elocater (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192374) [Jarian, Elocater, Psion (Nomad) -- Psionic]
Fighter Incarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153656) [Ernir, Fighter]
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) [Jiriku, Monk]
Sorcerer and Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233664) [Eldan, Sorcerer/Wizard -- Arcane, Non-Vancian]
Soulknife (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1128) [Garryl, Soulknife -- Invoker, Psionic]
Spellthief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189612) [Jarian, Spellthief]


Tier 3
Ascetic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193791) [Jarian, Monk]
Duskblade, Psionic (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1457.msg12932#msg12932) [Risada, Duskblade Variant]
Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241661) [Lemmy, Fighter -- Pathfinder]
Jester (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=438) [DonQuixote, Jester]
Marshal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6799700&postcount=2) [PId6, Marshal -- Martial Adept]
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244099) [lunar2, Monk]
Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213075) [Circle of Life, Ninja -- Unique]
Open Palm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193642) [Veklim, Monk]
Quixotic Knight (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=436) [DonQuixote, Knight]
Ranger, Retooled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165522) [T.G. Oskar, Ranger -- Divine, Vancian]
Rogue, Sublime (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6244.0) [sirpercival, Rogue]
Shaman (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=35.0) [Prime32, Shaman -- Binding]
Shugenja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14383002) [Agent_0042, Shugenja]
Soulknife (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=639.0) [Prime32, Soulknife]
Swift Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170358) [Jiriku, Ranger, Scout -- Divine, Vancian]
Swashbuckler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6799732&postcount=6) [PId6, Swashbuckler -- Martial Adept]
Swashbuckler, True (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6102.msg90046#msg90046) [SneeR, Swashbuckler]
Village Priest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168918) [Dspeyer, Cleric -- Divine, Vancian]
Warlock, Retooled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212830) [T.G. Oskar, Warlock -- Arcane, Invoker]
Warmage, Retooled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131346) [T.G. Oskar, Warmage -- Arcane, Vancian]


Borderline Tier 3-4
High Tier 4 or Low Tier 3, either way they mean the same: classes that are just a little behind in either versatility or power to really make the Tier 3 cut, but standing above most Tier 4s, they could fall in either Tier depending on the level of optimization used.
Bard (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=437.0) [DonQuixote, Bard -- Non-Arcane, Non-Vancian]
Bez-Kismet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153696) [T.G. Oskar, Hexblade -- Arcane, Vancian]
Daring Outlaw (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188150) [Jiriku, Rogue, Swashbuckler]
Healer, Retooled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133118) [T.G. Oskar, Healer -- Divine, Vancian]
Marshal, Retooled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186681) [T.G. Oskar, Marshal]
Paladin, Retooled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10687545#post10687545) [T.G. Oskar, Paladin -- Divine, Vancian]
Soulknife (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1457.msg12936#msg12936) [Risada, Soulknife]


Tier 4
Note that Tier 4 is not bad. Tier 4 is is, after all, "capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining." Many great classes are Tier 4.
Bard, Invoker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215793) [RedWarlock, Bard]
Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297494) [Derjuin, Fighter]
Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16146461) [Wayfare, Fighter]
Hexblade (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19547530/Contacting_Wizards_of_the_Coast_about_Hex_Blades&post_num=11#332210466) [Semi-Official Fix]
Knight Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304306) [Person_Man, Fighter, Knight, Paladin, Samurai]
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275306) [Amechra, Monk]
Monk Lite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126346) [T.G. Oskar, Monk]
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153528)
Ninja, Retooled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127673) [T.G. Oskar, Ninja]
Samurai (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1916.0) [Ziegander, Samurai -- Psionic]
Samurai, Retooled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143018) [T.G. Oskar, Samurai]
Scoundrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227772) [Circle of Life, Rogue, Swashbuckler]
Shadowcaster (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu) [Semi-Official Fix]
Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304478) [Belial_the_Leveler, Fighter]


Tier 5
If your class is here, consider reworking it. Unless Tier 5 was your aim.
Samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293947) [Kazy, CW Samurai]


Tier 6
Pity the common man, for he is powerless.


Variable Tier
Assume that you [u]always need special permission to play one of these classes if I am DMing for you. This is because depending on your choices within the class, these classes can vary from Tier 5 all the way up to Tier 2 or even 1.
Healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304884) [Quellian-dyrae, Healer]
While mostly fitting the low Tier 4 end like the normal Healer, it is still better at healing than its original. What makes it Variable however, is the Rejuvenation option of the Rites, which make it more equal to a Tier 2 if there is a Tier 2 in the party. Plus teleport shenanigans possibilities from level 10 onwards.
Trissociate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234951) [JeminiZero, All Fix]
This class highly depends on which Association you choose. Associations generally mimic already-existing official classes, so you can use the Tier of those classes to determine your Trissociate's Tier.

Morph Bark
2012-06-06, 07:27 PM
Statistics
Because I figured that it might be nice to collect the numbers on how many classes we got now and the amount of Tags! (Not up to date.)

Homebrew Tier Classes
Total Amount: 79

Tier 1: 2
Tier 2: 11
High Tier 3: 10
Tier 3: 22
Borderline: 7
Tier 4: 20
Tier 5: 5
Tier 6: -
Variable: 2

Horror: 8
Modern: 1
Oriental: 4
Sci-Fi: 1
Silly: 2
Steampunk: 2

Book: 0
Comic: 1
Historical: 1
Japan: 6
Original: 13
Television: 1
Video Game: 19

Arcane: 21
Binding: 2
Divine: 13
Incarnum: 4
Infusions: 1
Invoker: 4
Martial Adept: 18
Psionic: 3
Shadow: 1
Truenames: 1
Unique: 30
-Unique: 8
Vancian: 22

Buffer: 15
Crafter: 8
Debuffer: 10
Face: 41
Healer: 13
Magic: 53
Melee: 59
Moneymaker: 1
Ranged: 18
Sage: 17
Scout: 24
Tank: 10
Trapmonkey: 5

Big Read: 0
Expanded: 14
Fix: 4
Incomplete: 4
Roleplay: 1

Homebrew Fix Classes
Total Amount: 35


Special Features
Venture into the Belly of the Beast: Tiering Dandwiki. [link 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13498079#post13498079); link 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13499885#post13499885)]
Courtcase Oskar vs Bark: The Tiering of the Retooler. [link 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13530897&postcount=180); link 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13532879&postcount=186); link 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13536958&postcount=191)]
The Melancholy of Tsundere Spirits: The Tiering of Gareth. [link 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13659208&postcount=360); link 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13667213&postcount=366)]
X Marks The Magic: The Tiering of Waylander. [link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13949371&postcount=392)]
Fighter Fridays: The Tiering of Fighter Fixes. [link 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14419783&postcount=503); link 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14422526&postcount=505); --break (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14488541#post14488541)--]
Mysterious Mondays: The Descent of Tiering Shadows [link 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15939661#post15939661)]



Versions of this Thread
ENWorld (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/326716-morph-barks-homebrew-tier-compendium.html)
Giant in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245701)
Minmaxboards (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6292.0)


Credits and Thanks
Savannah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=50061) for the "You've Been Tiered!" graphic.
Sirpercival's Homebrew Martial Discipline Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255468) and its contributors.
Many Playgrounders for help with compiling the Vestiges and Binder material, including Zaydos and Avalon®, but especially Vauron.
Temotei for helping keep track of SO many things and being the bro-est of Homebros.

Jarian
2012-06-06, 07:33 PM
*waves hand vaguely at signature*

Feel free to review anything in there. I feel that most of it falls into a tier 3 category, but opinions vary.

Welknair
2012-06-06, 07:36 PM
*waves hand vaguely at signature*

Feel free to review anything in there. I feel that most of it falls into a tier 3 category, but opinions vary.

As above, so below. All my stuff's free for review/inclusion. I tried to keep my bloodlines tier-3ish. Arcane Engineer is almost certainly Tier 1. Scattered PrCs are scattered.

The-Mage-King
2012-06-06, 07:42 PM
Tier me. :smalltongue:

If I do more base classes than I already have, feel free to tier 'em, too.

Temotei
2012-06-06, 08:44 PM
Everything I have is always open for review. I'm currently editing the sentinel, so you might want to wait on that if you do get to it before I finish.

JeminiZero
2012-06-06, 08:53 PM
Alas, I only have one homebrew to my name.

Melayl
2012-06-06, 08:59 PM
Feel Free to tier my one-and-only base class (in my sig), and any other stuff I happen to come up with in the future.

Empedocles
2012-06-06, 09:00 PM
But it's one of the best...

Anyways, feel free to tier any of mine.

Eldan
2012-06-06, 09:03 PM
What's that, another place to selfishly promote my Wizard? Why, I never! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233664)

TravelLog
2012-06-06, 09:12 PM
Mine as well. :)

NeoSeraphi
2012-06-06, 09:15 PM
I'd be happy to let you look over my work. Please let me know what you think. I put a lot of effort into creativity and flavor over power, so I would appreciate the feedback.

Lord_Gareth
2012-06-06, 09:36 PM
I'd be happy to let you look over my work. Please let me know what you think. I put a lot of effort into creativity and flavor over power, so I would appreciate the feedback.

That sobbing sound you're hearing? That's Tempest Stormwind crying.

eftexar
2012-06-06, 09:43 PM
I'll go ahead and throw mine up to (see the sig). Just don't go into the corner (tis scary).

And Gareth please tell me that's an obscure reference (otherwise I'll feel dumb for looking it up).

Lord_Gareth
2012-06-06, 09:45 PM
I'll go ahead and throw mine up to. Just don't go into the corner (tis scary).

And Gareth please tell me that's an obscure reference (otherwise I'll feel dumb for looking it up).

Tempest Stormwind codified the now-famous Stormwind Fallacy, the thrust of his point being that optimization and quality roleplaying and writing are not mutually exclusive. This is as true in homebrew as it is in playing, so the idea of 'emphasizing flavor over power' is one I'm not particularly happy about.

Amechra
2012-06-06, 10:14 PM
All my stuff is fair game for you to review... if it is done, at least.

Just peruse the forums with the nice search function (haven't gotten around to making my sig all link filled, sorry).

And what is this about this Stormwing crap? Why, if we listened to what some grognard said on the internet, we wouldn't have such intensely flavorful but weak classes as the Lightning Warrior!

I mean, sometimes you just have to sacrifice power for flavor, right?

(Now look what you made me do; I feel absolutely filthy right now for saying that. Now to go scrub my skin until I am clean once more.)

Lord_Gareth
2012-06-06, 10:15 PM
By the by, anything of mine that you can find is free and open.

Othesemo
2012-06-06, 10:23 PM
Feel free to go over what paltry homebrew I have to my name.

bobthe6th
2012-06-06, 10:25 PM
I will join the agreement that you can tag my stuff... actually curious to see what you think.

Admiral Squish
2012-06-06, 10:31 PM
I hope you know what you've gotten yourself into.

We've got:
Changeling Warshaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239838)
Guardian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213266)

Optional:
Totem Fury (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175229)

Morph Bark
2012-06-07, 05:14 AM
As above, so below. All my stuff's free for review/inclusion. I tried to keep my bloodlines tier-3ish. Arcane Engineer is almost certainly Tier 1. Scattered PrCs are scattered.

Bloodlines and PrCs and the like won't be included here, most likely. While I may do something of the sort in the far future, this is merely a start and as such only for base classes. There are plenty of interesting ones among those that haven't been seen yet. If you know any base classes that don't get mentioned by others, any hidden gems, please link them here! That way, I can look them over, Tier them and promote them to others so they get a chance to shine.


If I do more base classes than I already have, feel free to tier 'em, too.

Sure. If anyone makes a new base class, they are free to link it here. However, I will not Tier a class until it has been up for a while, to allow for some critique to form on it first. If there isn't much critique on it yet, linking it here might also make sure others see it and look it over.


Alas, I only have one homebrew to my name.

Feel Free to tier my one-and-only base class (in my sig), and any other stuff I happen to come up with in the future.

People who have only one class to their name may actually find that I look their work over sooner than those people who have a whole bunch. Gotta promote y'all, no? :smallwink:


I'd be happy to let you look over my work. Please let me know what you think. I put a lot of effort into creativity and flavor over power, so I would appreciate the feedback.

While I agree in some part with the Stormwind comment, I'll be sure to give your work a look over. I'm not a fan of yours, but you do have some interesting stuff and plenty of it as well.


By the by, anything of mine that you can find is free and open.

This is partly why I told you to get an Extended Homebrew Signature, Gareth. :smalltongue:


I hope you know what you've gotten yourself into.

Oh, I do. I definitely do... Don't worry though, if anyone gets feisty, I could always use more whipping practice, since grandma won't teach me no more.


EDIT: To all who see this, I would really appreciate it if any obscure Homebrew or Homebrew not listed in the Extended Homebrewer's Signature thread would be linked here, perhaps with a short little promotion of it and explanation, what you like about it and think what Tier it would be or what Tags it deserves. I will also go through the Base Class Challenge entries, so be sure to participate in them!

JeminiZero
2012-06-07, 08:11 AM
People who have only one class to their name may actually find that I look their work over sooner than those people who have a whole bunch. Gotta promote y'all, no? :smallwink:

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:


Oh, I do. I definitely do... Don't worry though, if anyone gets feisty, I could always use more whipping practice, since grandma won't teach me no more.

I think its more of a question of scale. I reckon there hundreds or even thousands of homebrew base classes. Some of which are incredibly massive, coming with an entire subsystem of their own. Trying to tier all of them will take months to years.

Pyromancer999
2012-06-07, 11:05 AM
Free tier evaluation? Sure:

Polymath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169353)
Student of the Weird (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172967)
Esoteric Augur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187774)
Mindforger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187133)
Bio-Sculptor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186377)
Mind Puppeteer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187953)
Transient Psyche (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187977)
Energy Weaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187427)
Spell Weaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192427)
Judicar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199114)
Death Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195618)
Entity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196319)
Pantologist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178185)
Pyromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12792207&postcount=13)

Welknair
2012-06-07, 12:33 PM
Bloodlines and PrCs and the like won't be included here, most likely. While I may do something of the sort in the far future, this is merely a start and as such only for base classes.

Fair enough. The Conceptualist and Arcane Engineer (Found near the end of Magitech) are the two Base Classes I've posted here.

Melayl
2012-06-07, 01:14 PM
But it's one of the best...


Really? Well, thank you. :smallsmile:

If you've used it, I'd really love to hear about how it played. Probably via PM, though, so we don't derail Morph Bark's thread.

Empedocles
2012-06-07, 01:22 PM
Really? Well, thank you. :smallsmile:

If you've used it, I'd really love to hear about how it played. Probably via PM, though, so we don't derail Morph Bark's thread.

Ah...that awkward moment where I was talking about the trissociate........

I've never actually seen your beast warrior before. Taking a look now :smallsmile:

Melayl
2012-06-07, 01:50 PM
oops... :smalltongue: That's ok. I was somewhat surprised when I thought you were talking about my class, since I hadn't heard that it had been used much.

Jarian
2012-06-07, 01:51 PM
EDIT: To all who see this, I would really appreciate it if any obscure Homebrew or Homebrew not listed in the Extended Homebrewer's Signature thread would be linked here, perhaps with a short little promotion of it and explanation, what you like about it and think what Tier it would be or what Tags it deserves. I will also go through the Base Class Challenge entries, so be sure to participate in them!

The Soulweaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236890) probably fits into that request. I only found it by happenstance, since it isn't listed with his other homebrew on the homebrew signature thread. Base class challenge entry, so you'll probably see it eventually anyway.

Looks tier 3 at all levels at a glance, but might edge up to T2.5 at very high levels. Shotgunning tags onto it, it looks like [Horror, Original, Unique, Magic/Melee, Support]

Morph Bark
2012-06-07, 06:57 PM
The Soulweaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236890) probably fits into that request. I only found it by happenstance, since it isn't listed with his other homebrew on the homebrew signature thread. Base class challenge entry, so you'll probably see it eventually anyway.

Looks tier 3 at all levels at a glance, but might edge up to T2.5 at very high levels. Shotgunning tags onto it, it looks like [Horror, Original, Unique, Magic/Melee, Support]

See, this? This is EXACTLY what I mean! Thanks, Jarian!

With Base Class Challenge classes, they often get posted outside the Challenges as well, where they get more critique and often get tweaked and updated further. These are usually clearly better versions of those classes than the ones posted in the Challenge because of this. As such, don't hesitate to link them!


I think its more of a question of scale. I reckon there hundreds or even thousands of homebrew base classes. Some of which are incredibly massive, coming with an entire subsystem of their own. Trying to tier all of them will take months to years.

Oh, I am aware of that. As such, I am not going to Tier them all. There is never a rock solid guarantee that I will Tier a class, not even if I made it myself. A class is more likely to get Tiered if it has a great concept, fluff, execution, is based off a popular work (in combination with a good execution), has original mechanics that make it fun to play, is pretty balanced across most levels... and so on!

Things that will cause me to not Tier a class at all, ever, include... very few things. If a class doesn't have a table, I will probably not bother with it until it does, because I like the easy reference. If a class is very bland in fluff or execution, I may still Tier it, but more likely will not. This "more likely" is mostly just because of the huge amount of classes out there though, and in the end I am just one single human being, trying to make a Homebrew Tier Compendium for my own fun and easy perusal and that of those I love and call my bitches, because they better be nice to me or suffer TPK!

*cough*

I mean all y'all, my friends, of course. :smallbiggrin:


Fair enough. The Conceptualist and Arcane Engineer (Found near the end of Magitech) are the two Base Classes I've posted here.

Actually, I just stumbled across your Blood King, so I may be forced (by myself) to look into your Bloodlines anyway. :smalltongue:

I know the first time I gave it a look over I thought "oh god, this would be perhaps even more of a headache in preparation than a prepared caster, every single day". Especially once I saw there was a Bloodline that mimicked or combined other Bloodlines! Those might end up making it go up or down Tiers somewhat...


Also, Trissociate made me end up creating a Variable Tier, since it really depends on what you pick. It's well made and I'd endorse it, but as a DM I'd probably hate ending up with a party of them. :smalltongue:

Welknair
2012-06-07, 07:34 PM
Actually, I just stumbled across your Blood King, so I may be forced (by myself) to look into your Bloodlines anyway. :smalltongue:

I know the first time I gave it a look over I thought "oh god, this would be perhaps even more of a headache in preparation than a prepared caster, every single day". Especially once I saw there was a Bloodline that mimicked or combined other Bloodlines! Those might end up making it go up or down Tiers somewhat...

How could I forget the Blood King! Yeah, I assure you that'll be an interesting read :smallbiggrin:

Techwarrior
2012-06-07, 07:39 PM
I'd love to see where my stuff falls on the tier system. Specifically this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244192). Any peaching I can get on that would also be appreciated. It's supposed to be an anti-caster class. I was hoping that it would be right around tier 4

Virdish
2012-06-07, 07:51 PM
Please Tier this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244664) if you would.

Larkas
2012-06-08, 12:39 AM
Hey, Morph Bark, would you mind taking a look at my Shrine Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240124) when you have the time? I'm still thinking about making it a spontaneous spellcaster (haven't got much time to test it, and its interactions with reserve feats, myself, so I'm not really sure :smallfrown: ), but other than that, it's pretty much done :smallredface:

JeminiZero
2012-06-08, 06:51 AM
Also, Trissociate made me end up creating a Variable Tier, since it really depends on what you pick.

Thats fair... what do you think is the highest tier one could make from it?


It's well made and I'd endorse it, but as a DM I'd probably hate ending up with a party of them. :smalltongue:

Actually, I would argue that it is easier to evaluate as a DM (at least once the player pulls together his selection and makes a Sample Level Progression table), since it largely rides off known subsystems instead of trying to create something entirely new. There are ALOT of associations, but the DM can skip those the player is not selecting.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-06-08, 07:00 AM
All my stuff is open for tier evaluation.

The Gladiator is not based off Spartacus: Blood and Sand. I just liked the picture.

Morph Bark
2012-06-09, 05:02 AM
I'd love to see where my stuff falls on the tier system. Specifically this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244192). Any peaching I can get on that would also be appreciated. It's supposed to be an anti-caster class. I was hoping that it would be right around tier 4

It looks like you need a lot more peaching, yeah. Anyway, I looked the class over and it's looking to me like a Tier 5. It has some strong abilities, but they become weak rather quickly, plus it has no versatility at all, nor choices in abilities and is very specific in what it does.

By the by, to anyone else here, even if I don't put your class in the Tier Compendium, I may still provide you with a short evaluation of the class and tell you what Tier I think it is.


Hey, Morph Bark, would you mind taking a look at my Shrine Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240124) when you have the time? I'm still thinking about making it a spontaneous spellcaster (haven't got much time to test it, and its interactions with reserve feats, myself, so I'm not really sure :smallfrown: ), but other than that, it's pretty much done :smallredface:

I like your humility, young man. You shall be spared domination or destruction when I take over the world.

I'll take a deeper look into it later. First glance looks good, about Adept-level.


Thats fair... what do you think is the highest tier one could make from it?

Actually, I would argue that it is easier to evaluate as a DM (at least once the player pulls together his selection and makes a Sample Level Progression table), since it largely rides off known subsystems instead of trying to create something entirely new. There are ALOT of associations, but the DM can skip those the player is not selecting.

The highest it can get is Tier 2, with the spellcasting Associations. I think one could easily put one of the Associations next to the Tier system of the official classes, find the class most like it, and have the same Tier as that class. The lowest it otherwise gets is Tier 4, though I think the Weapon Master Association is Tier 5.

It probably is easier to evaluate as a DM, but it is partly because it basically mimics existing classes that I'd rather see my players just use the existing classes they mimic. Plus, in cases where I'm allowing Homebrew in my campaigns, I usually do so because I want to see something new, not something old with a new paint job. This is just my personal preference.

Allow me to take back my earlier wording though: I wouldn't hate having to DM a party of Trissociates. Rather, I'd simply prefer other things be taken instead.

Also, I'm actually now thinking I should give a short justification for a class being in a certain Tier if necessary, or for the tags, since while the Big Read tag definitely applies to the Trissociate, a DM can disregard any Associations that a player does not use. Still, I think it is a rather well-made class, hence its inclusion.


I've decided to remove the Crackerjack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145378) from the list. While I liked its focus on skills and its use of them, getting a bonus feat every level was ultimately too much.

JeminiZero
2012-06-09, 09:56 AM
It probably is easier to evaluate as a DM, but it is partly because it basically mimics existing classes that I'd rather see my players just use the existing classes they mimic. Plus, in cases where I'm allowing Homebrew in my campaigns, I usually do so because I want to see something new, not something old with a new paint job. This is just my personal preference.

Okay. Its just that the caveat of "always need special permission" for the Variable Tier makes everything under it sound like some sort of game-breaking monstrousity.

Ignoring the fact that Trissociate is the ONLY Variabe Tier class right now, I would imagine anything else that falls under Variable Tier would also be quite different from Trissociate (and all the other fixed tier classes). If I might suggest something, consider rewording the subheading to: "All of these are very different from the above, and even from one another. Refer to the individual comments for each."


Still, I think it is a rather well-made class, hence its inclusion.

Yah! Thanks! :smallbiggrin:


Also, I'm actually now thinking I should give a short justification for a class being in a certain Tier if necessary, or for the tags, since while the Big Read tag definitely applies to the Trissociate, a DM can disregard any Associations that a player does not use.





Maybe something like this?


{table]Class Name | Inspiration | Subsystems | Roles | Others | Comments
{colsp=2}Tier 1 |{colsp=4}-
{colsp=6}
.


{colsp=2}Tier 2 |{colsp=4}-
{colsp=6}
.


{colsp=2}High Tier 3 |{colsp=4}These classes generally have much higher levels of power than average Tier 3 classes and may have a gamebreaker or two, but nothing that would bump them up to Tier 2.
Grandmaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12004458) | - | Arcane | Healer, Magic, Support | - | -
{colsp=6}
.


{colsp=2}Tier 3 |{colsp=4}-
Hemoscribe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176746) | Horror, Original | - | Face, Magic, Melee, Skillful | Incomplete | -
Limit Dragoon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168962) | Video Game | Unique | Face, Melee, Tank | - | -
Sentai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242337) | Modern, Japan | Martial Adept | Face, Magic, Melee, Ranged, Support | - | -
{colsp=6}
.


{colsp=2}Borderline Tier 3-4 |{colsp=4}High Tier 4 or Low Tier 3, either way they mean the same: classes that are just a little behind in either versatility or power to really make the Tier 3 cut, but standing above most Tier 4s, they could fall in either Tier depending on the level of optimization used.
Dabblemaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8919949) | Original | Arcane, Binding, Divine, Incarnum, Infusions, Invoker, Martial Adept, Psionic, Shadow, Truenames | Face, Magic | - | -
{colsp=6}
.

{colsp=2}Tier 4 |{colsp=4}Note that Tier 4 is not bad. Tier 4 is is, after all, "capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining." Many great classes are Tier 4.
Botanimorphist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12775694&postcount=12) | - | - | Healer, Magic, Melee | - | -
Dualists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210101) | Original | - | Melee |
White Clad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132494) | Video Game | - | Face, Melee, Skillful | Expanded | -
{colsp=6}
.


{colsp=2}Tier 5 |{colsp=4}If your class is here, consider reworking it. Unless Tier 5 was your aim.
Initiate of the Green Tunic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51744) | Video Game | - | Magic, Melee, Support | - | -
{colsp=6}
.


{colsp=2}Tier 6 |{colsp=4}Pity the common man, for he is powerless.
{colsp=6}
.


{colsp=2}Variable Tier |{colsp=4}Assume that you always need special permission to play one of these classes if I am DMing for you.
Trissociate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234951) | - | Variable Subsystem | Variable Role | Big Read | Insert Comments here.
[/table]

Cipher Stars
2012-06-09, 10:37 AM
Hmm...

Tier my'brew? It would be nice to know where everything stands.

Morph Bark
2012-06-09, 01:33 PM
Okay. Its just that the caveat of "always need special permission" for the Variable Tier makes everything under it sound like some sort of game-breaking monstrousity.

Ignoring the fact that Trissociate is the ONLY Variabe Tier class right now, I would imagine anything else that falls under Variable Tier would also be quite different from Trissociate (and all the other fixed tier classes). If I might suggest something, consider rewording the subheading to: "All of these are very different from the above, and even from one another. Refer to the individual comments for each."

Looking at it again, I can see how someone would read it like that. I'll consider rewording it, since I meant it more in the vein of "due to the fact that these classes vary in Tier, you'll need special permission for them, since some options bring you up to a Tier that might not be allowed in the game I'm DMing for you".


Maybe something like this?

*snip*

Oh dear lord, no. I'll never use a table for this. While tables are incredibly handy for classes and easy list information in some cases, I don't feel it is appropriate and would end up looking cluttered here.

Plus it is a lot of work. :smalltongue:

I had been thinking of doing a little spoilerblock underneath some or each of the classes to explain their Tiering/Tagging, but think that it might end up taking up a lot of space in symbols, going over the limit for the post much more quickly. Right now it wouldn't be a problem yet, but that'll change once many classes have been entered.

Thanks for the suggestion though!


Cipher, I'll definitely be looking at the Stylist at the very least.

Edge
2012-06-09, 01:49 PM
I would like to offer my homebrew up for consideration. Link in my signature.

Also, whilst I can see the benefits tables would add to this compendium, I quite like the current set up. So, whatever works for you, Messer Bark.

GunbladeKnight
2012-06-09, 02:59 PM
Feel free to tier my blood knight class, though I'm considering revising it. Fighter and barbarian are pretty much done, though I am still tweaking the dancer at the moment. All links should be in my signature.

Lonely Tylenol
2012-06-10, 08:21 AM
I've only created one base class, which I think is a high 3/low 2, but give it a look-see for yourself.

Morph Bark
2012-06-10, 11:19 AM
I edited the Tier list to include some descriptions and explanations under some of the listed classes. Tell me what you guys think of it.


Messer Bark.

Since "mes" means "knife" in my native tongue, this almost sounds to me like you just called me Barkknifer or something.

Not that I mind, my real name literally translated means "Knife of the Shred".

Midwoka
2012-06-11, 06:11 PM
I'd love to have you look over the Olympian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13322347&postcount=11) =)

It might get a little editing after its contest is officially ended, but that'll mostly be for clarity and brevity (while keeping things working the same).


And thanks for linking to the original Tier stuff! It's not easy figuring out on your own what the Tiers mean when other people talk about them, especially when their opinions differ.


EDIT: Durrrr... The Olympian is for Pathfinder, while this list is D&D 3e/3.5. My mistake.

Welknair
2012-06-11, 06:32 PM
Random note on Blood King: Thanks to Blood Mastery - Attune, their versatility is going to be very much dependent on the prevalance of bloodlines and bloodline-yielding creatures in the world. I'm guess Variable Tier, if not Tier 3.

Morph Bark
2012-06-12, 05:34 AM
And thanks for linking to the original Tier stuff! It's not easy figuring out on your own what the Tiers mean when other people talk about them, especially when their opinions differ.

No problem! Yes, it helps a lot knowing what other people talk about, especially since the Tiers are very prevalent nowadays. However, they should come with a bigger warning label, as some people still think the Tiers are hard and fast, even though with some spell bannings the Tier 1 and 2s can be brought down a Tier and low-optimization parties generally suffer less from Tier disparity (unless Druids are involved).


EDIT: Durrrr... The Olympian is for Pathfinder, while this list is D&D 3e/3.5. My mistake.

That's okay. I was actually thinking of perhaps including Pathfinder classes as well, adding an extra Tag that shows it's a Pathfinder class, with perhaps a blurb on how to easily convert a class from Pathfinder rules to 3.5 rules, and vice versa.


Random note on Blood King: Thanks to Blood Mastery - Attune, their versatility is going to be very much dependent on the prevalance of bloodlines and bloodline-yielding creatures in the world. I'm guess Variable Tier, if not Tier 3.

I was thinking Tier 3, yeah, though which of the sub-Tiers of it I'm not sure yet. I'll probably make a little note of it that it depends some on the prevalence of bloodlines in the campaign setting.


Anyhoo, the Tier list now includes the winner of the first Base Class Challenge, the Twilight Caster by Owrtho, as well as Temotei's Debaser! I'm loving the fluff and mechanics on both of these.

DracoDei
2012-06-13, 01:19 PM
Got two classes I would like tiered... or rather one now, and one later (unless you are feeling really brave and/or generous).

Ok, first the easy one:
Guardian of Minds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=121215): This one is meant to be strictly NPC. It is a version of the Paladin with ALMOST all the combat ability stripped out and taken more in the direction of "At-Will Detect Evil is actually a very powerful ability in intrigue campaigns". It may need to be listed separately for "when Moral Champion is available/in use" versus when using that ability isn't available or the opportunity cost is too high. This might make it "variable" or just have a footnote, or listed twice with a parenthetical under each one.
Recommended Tags (ones I am less sure about have question marks next to them):
Genre:
(None)

Inspiration:
(None)

Subsystems:
Divine
Invoker?(Big thematically, but also gets a lot of per day/week/month/year SLA's and other abilities)

Role:
Face (and even more so while under the effects of the Subvert the Invader sub-ability of Moral Champion)
Melee*
Ranged*
Scout**
*Only while under the effects of the Overt Heroics sub-ability of Moral Champion.
**Only while under the effects of the Subvert the Invader sub-ability of Moral Champion.

Special:
Roleplay

SUSPECTED TIERS:
4 or 5 without Moral Champion available or appropriately activated
3 or 4 with Moral Champion availalbe or appropriately activated


Now for the curve-ball. I am currently playtesting this, so I may be adding some new abilities (including via feats). Therefore, unless you are willing to do this one twice, once now, and once after I get some real play-test done on it, I would advise you to delay this:
The Grace-Gift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229090): This is a class about being the wind SCRAM-jet beneath the party's wings, and AoOs. Buffer (and they are giving up there own defenses or otherwise nerfing themselves to do that buffing), holder of the front line, and day's end healbot. Neither I nor anyone I have spoken to have really seen its like before. Relies heavily on feats (especially the class-exclusive feats) for its customization, but unlike the fighter, those feats are much more meaningful (Or at least I hope so...). It may tail off towards the higher levels, but that just means I need to beef up the higher levels (IE I am not going to nerf the lower levels). More details on what I am considering doing to modify it available if you actually need them.

Recommended Tags (ones I am less sure about have question marks next to them):
Genre:
(None)

Inspiration:
Original? (when almost everyone who looks at the class goes "I have no idea how this would work out in actual play." I get the impression this may be justified.)

Sub-systems:
Divine? (Certainly most of their at-wills replicate Divine spells).
Arcane?? (But they do get a Fly equivalent, and eventually something that would leave Haste in the dust if it weren't for the fact that it was single target and comes at a cost to your own actions)
Invoker (But they, unlike the warlock, know all the spells on their list...)
NOT Vancian despite having one such ability, with more to be potentially added, especially via the "Never a Burden" ability.
-Unique? (Does smashing together knowing all your spells from the cleric with a warlock's bottomless well of power count?)

Roles:
Buffer
Healer(but needs more abilities for this at higher levels, especially acceleration of the times involved)
Crafter(But ONLY due to Gift of Soul allowing donating XPs to item and spell casting, having the Craft skill on their list, and Aid Another)
Magic
Melee? (Do really good AoOs count? You can START your turn outside of the enemies' reaches, but the ability doesn't kick in until they do something within your reach.)
Tank (A very odd sort of tank, but definitely intended as one. Not much at goading enemies into attacking them directly, but "or otherwise prevents his allies from behind harmed." definitely seems to me to fit the combination of buffing, AoOs, and having Brick Wall level defenses when they aren't giving away parts of them.).

Special:
Big Read? (I'm hitting the character count limit on the first post, and have a second post just for the class-specific feats).
Incomplete? (Not that it LOOKS it, just that I really feel I need to beef up the later levels in terms of the range of abilities, comprehensiveness of abilities, speed of healing effects (might drop many of them down to 1 hour or eventually), and number of abilities you can use in one turn. That last part is because most of the buffs have durations of 1 round, so pre-cast buffs, especially those with 10 minute/level or longer durations start overwhelming you later.)

SUSPECTED TIERS:
Probably starts off at tier 3 at the lower levels, but also probably fades back to tier 4 at higher levels currently. This is a design flaw I need to fix by beefing up the higher levels as described above.
Might hit Tier 2 if I add "Never A Burden".

Bhu
2012-06-13, 08:49 PM
im crious to see where you rate the Cat Burglar in my sig

lunar2
2012-06-15, 04:40 PM
I would love for you to take a look at my homebrew.

the monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244099) it started as a PHB monk fix, but it ended up as a Z Fighter (Dragonball) instead. I'll probably end up renaming it next time i revise it (which will be whenever i get some feedback on the changes i've made so far).

Dragon Ascendant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12541343#post12541343) "Be a dragon without actually being a dragon" is basically the premise of this class

The Wanderer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222403) basically a stripped down druid without the nature connection.

Jarian
2012-06-15, 05:04 PM
By the by Morph Bark, having played several War-Marked and actually designed the last 6 levels of the class, I would put it in the high tier 3 category, if not tier 2 for high level games. The class was, as I understand, an attempt by the Penny Dreadfuls to make a tier 2 melee class for the Test of Spite. I'm not sure it entirely succeeded, but I definitely think the final combination of marks can edge it into that territory.

Morph Bark
2012-06-15, 08:15 PM
By the by Morph Bark, having played several War-Marked and actually designed the last 6 levels of the class, I would put it in the high tier 3 category, if not tier 2 for high level games. The class was, as I understand, an attempt by the Penny Dreadfuls to make a tier 2 melee class for the Test of Spite. I'm not sure it entirely succeeded, but I definitely think the final combination of marks can edge it into that territory.

I'll take a look over it again later then. Thanks for telling me, it's very helpful, as I am not like to play all classes I am including here. From what I had seen I thought it was Tier 3 -- it clearly isn't Tier 4 by far -- but I may have skipped over or missed some things.

Also, have a Tiering! :smallbiggrin: I Tiered your Solar Ascendant class and put it at Borderline 3-4. It can vary due to SLA choices, but since they aren't flexible as with the Factotum and are rather limited, I don't think it's really Tier 3 material, though it does allow it to rise above most Tier 4s and the fact it gets a free magic ranged weapon and a free magic melee weapon and flight as well make it better than Rangers and Warlocks, I'd say. The "Protective Aura" ability seems a bit off though... it starts out with +2 AC and +2 on saves vs evil creatures, then becomes like Protection From Evil at level 9. Isn't Protection From Evil basicially just that, +2 AC and +2 on saves vs evil creatures? The ability could use some changing/buffing if so.


im crious to see where you rate the Cat Burglar in my sig

OH GOD SO MUCH WORK HELL NO

jk, I'll be sure to take a look at it. If only to have an excuse to look at your grand collection of cat pictures.


I hope you know what you've gotten yourself into.

We've got:
Changeling Warshaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239838)
Guardian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213266)

Optional:
Totem Fury (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175229)

I was fully ready to Tier the Guardian and actually put it in, but because I ended up nearly putting it under Tier 5, while I just want to see it be Tier 4, I thought I'd just post my evaluation here:

While it has great features for a tank, which is its intended main goal, the "must not move" clause of its primary ability makes it inherently very weak. Limited movement is okay if it grants great things, which it does, but taking it away entirely is not. With not being allowed to move and treating threatened squares as difficult terrain for enemies, some reach would have been a very good idea as well, or simply making a follow-up ability that makes all squares within X feet of the Guardian become difficult terrain, in an aura. Call to Battle is gained way too late to be effective much, without an earlier ability to lead up to it, which could've been good.


I'd be happy to let you look over my work. Please let me know what you think. I put a lot of effort into creativity and flavor over power, so I would appreciate the feedback.

I nearly ended up Tiering the Slowknife due to the cool concept, but then I saw and remembered it is a PrC, so instead I took a look at the Librarian, which I am in the process of Tiering now. Looking very good so far, but I'm reading the abilities over again later to make sure I understand them correctly. :smallsmile:


Feel free to tier my blood knight class, though I'm considering revising it. Fighter and barbarian are pretty much done, though I am still tweaking the dancer at the moment. All links should be in my signature.

It does look like it could use a revision. The early levels are either dead or only grant weak feats, which is a very bad idea in general. The other abilities are rather nice (beside the enhancement bonuses on the blood weapon, which is pretty standard, but in a good way), but it could use more of them, like four times as much, perhaps needing to pick between some of them. Looking at its apparent themes, you might like the current Mixed Ultimate Homebrew Arts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246322) challenge. Do it. Do it. Do it.


I've also added some classes I found again that I was very familiar with already from past campaigns. Ladies and gentlemen: the Limit Warriors!

Jarian
2012-06-15, 08:20 PM
The "Protective Aura" ability seems a bit off though... it starts out with +2 AC and +2 on saves vs evil creatures, then becomes like Protection From Evil at level 9. Isn't Protection From Evil basicially just that, +2 AC and +2 on saves vs evil creatures? The ability could use some changing/buffing if so.


Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

Those are the additions at 9th level.

Morph Bark
2012-06-15, 08:24 PM
Those are the additions at 9th level.

Ahh, right. Those never have come up before in our games, well the possession has in my session plannings, but I had completely forgotten/ignored the "natural weapons of summoned creatures bounce off you" part! That makes it a lot better already, especially against casters, fond as they are of summoning.

DracoDei
2012-06-15, 08:34 PM
Also, have a Tiering! :smallbiggrin: I Tiered your Solar Ascendant class and put it at Borderline 3-4. It can vary due to SLA choices, but since they aren't flexible as with the Factotum and are rather limited, I don't think it's really Tier 3 material, though it does allow it to rise above most Tier 4s and the fact it gets a free magic ranged weapon and a free magic melee weapon and flight as well make it better than Rangers and Warlocks, I'd say. The "Protective Aura" ability seems a bit off though... it starts out with +2 AC and +2 on saves vs evil creatures, then becomes like Protection From Evil at level 9. Isn't Protection From Evil basicially just that, +2 AC and +2 on saves vs evil creatures? The ability could use some changing/buffing if so.

Nope. You are forgetting the second and third abilities of Protection from Evil.

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

Giegue
2012-06-15, 09:02 PM
This is awesome. Really awesome. GITPG has produced some wonderful homebrew and this is a nice way to organize them all. I look forward to seeing the Oozorden appear here. Sadly, I only have two homebrew classes to my name on this site, and one of them is a PrC. If you want to see it I can re-post it. It's not all that "original" compared to some of the awesome, awesome homebrew on this site, but still a fun class with a fair bit of customization that people seemed to like. It's a tier 1 divine caster that is a priest class even less martial then a cloistered cleric. It is in a sense a half-way point between an archivist and cleric, and is charisma-based(because there is no tier 1 cha-based caster.). If you like, I can link it for you to see. It was intended as a Tier 1. Most likely you won't care about it, but I just thought I should mention it.

ideasmith
2012-06-15, 11:14 PM
Beastmaster (http://xynthia.x10.mx/classbeastmaster.htm#logo)
Berserker (http://xynthia.x10.mx/classberserker.htm#logo)
Crackerjack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145378)
Dweomerpulse (http://xynthia.x10.mx/classdweomerpulse.htm#logo)
Hunter (http://xynthia.x10.mx/classhunter.htm#logo)
Moondancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215433)
Mystic (http://xynthia.x10.mx/classmystic.htm#logo)
Spellbinder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212047)
Spelldancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245943)
Unfledged (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211278)
Weaponmaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242335)



I've decided to remove the Crackerjack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145378) from the list. While I liked its focus on skills and its use of them, getting a bonus feat every level was ultimately too much.

Do you suggest reducing the number of feats? If so, how much? (Shall I copy this part of the post to the Crackerjack thread?)

Mithril Leaf
2012-06-16, 02:10 AM
Because Hazuki is far too humble to ask you for it, may I request that you review The Traveller (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12985985#post12985985)? It's one of my very favorite homebrew classes and I'd like to know where it stands.

dspeyer
2012-06-16, 01:47 PM
I'll toss my extended signature in here. Especially the "Every Archetype in Tier 3" part.

Also, I'd suggest adding a inspiration=historical tag. I doubt I'm the only one who's tried to stat something from history.

Empedocles
2012-06-16, 01:49 PM
Also, I'd suggest adding a inspiration=historical tag. I doubt I'm the only one who's tried to stat something from history.

Not a bad idea, but if you do decide to do this I'd like to point out that my Spartan base class is not historical whatsoever.

Morph Bark
2012-06-16, 06:44 PM
This is awesome. Really awesome. GITPG has produced some wonderful homebrew and this is a nice way to organize them all.
*snip*
If you like, I can link it for you to see. It was intended as a Tier 1. Most likely you won't care about it, but I just thought I should mention it.

Thanks!

Shoot the link over in the thread, soldier!


Beastmaster (http://xynthia.x10.mx/classbeastmaster.htm#logo)
Berserker (http://xynthia.x10.mx/classberserker.htm#logo)
Crackerjack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145378)
Dweomerpulse (http://xynthia.x10.mx/classdweomerpulse.htm#logo)
Hunter (http://xynthia.x10.mx/classhunter.htm#logo)
Moondancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215433)
Mystic (http://xynthia.x10.mx/classmystic.htm#logo)
Spellbinder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212047)
Spelldancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245943)
Unfledged (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211278)
Weaponmaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242335)

Do you suggest reducing the number of feats? If so, how much? (Shall I copy this part of the post to the Crackerjack thread?)

Looks like someone is in need of an Extended Homebrewer's Signature, maybe? :smalltongue:

I'd suggest making the feat progression maybe Fighter-like or less and limit them to feats that grant bonuses to skills (or feats that have such viable feats as prerequisites), with of course the Crackerjack still needing to qualify for the feats as normal. This allows him access to Dragontouched and Aberrant Blood and derivatives, among others, but still mainly focuses on the skills and leaves out all the Fighter feats, Wizard feats, etc.


Because Hazuki is far too humble to ask you for it, may I request that you review The Traveller (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12985985#post12985985)? It's one of my very favorite homebrew classes and I'd like to know where it stands.

The class seemed very interesting at first look, but once I actually read over Auspices, it became clear it is a Tier 1 class, plain and simple, as it can get access to one of the three most powerful and versatile spell lists in existence. I'll still read over the rest of the class, see if it offers anything interesting.


I'll toss my extended signature in here. Especially the "Every Archetype in Tier 3" part.

Also, I'd suggest adding a inspiration=historical tag. I doubt I'm the only one who's tried to stat something from history.

The Tier 3 Archetypes of yours mainly fall below Tier 3, sadly. They offer mostly abilities that are too weak or focused or get a weak feat (such as Point Blank Shot). I like some of your maneuvers and think you've done well one some, but classes go a little harder it seems. The Village Priest turned out rather well though, and it took a little for me to decide which Tier it was, but I am inclined to agree with your assessment that it is Tier 3, largely due to being allowed access to Domains and having Advanced Learning.

The Historical Tag suggestion is a pretty sound one, I have to admit! I'll add that one. I was thinking of also expanding the Role category of Tags a bit, including things like Utility (mainly out of combat stuff besides social stuff and crafting, though it could be used in combat as well, like teleportation, creation of stone walls, etc, but also mundane stuff, though I dun have examples for that right now), Debuffer (grant enemies penalties or negative conditions), Trapmonkey (has trapfinding or a focus on trapmaking), Scout (obvious role is obvious) and Librarian (at least a light focus on Knowledges). This to remove the Skillful Tag and perhaps change the Support Tag to the Buffer Tag to accompany the new Debuffer Tag. What do you all think?


Not a bad idea, but if you do decide to do this I'd like to point out that my Spartan base class is not historical whatsoever.

THAT. WAS. CLEAR!

*kicks Vilpich into a pit of anti-magic fielded Black Tentacles that are on acid*


Classes that have now been Tiered include the Exarch of the Emerald Shield and the Village Priest.

Ernir
2012-06-16, 07:33 PM
Time to get an extended signature, it seems. :smalltongue:

Anything we can do to make your work easier?

DracoDei
2012-06-16, 08:40 PM
Are you going in order of submission or what?

Jarian
2012-06-16, 10:18 PM
Are you going in order of submission or what?

Judging by the fact that I was the first post and yet one of the most recent additions, I seriously doubt it.

DracoDei
2012-06-16, 10:46 PM
Judging by the fact that I was the first post and yet one of the most recent additions, I seriously doubt it.
Oh, good. I was a bit worried I had been overlooked.

Mithril Leaf
2012-06-17, 01:11 AM
The class seemed very interesting at first look, but once I actually read over Auspices, it became clear it is a Tier 1 class, plain and simple, as it can get access to one of the three most powerful and versatile spell lists in existence. I'll still read over the rest of the class, see if it offers anything interesting.

Do note that although they get access to the whole range of spells from a list they number per day they can cast is very limited and also uses the cleric casting mechanic. Not solid tier 1 material, although probably still in that category overall. I'd personally say borderline tier 1 and tier 3.

The-Mage-King
2012-06-17, 03:31 AM
Since I'm betting you didn't notice the Barrier Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177861) lurking in my extended sig...

:smalltongue:

Morph Bark
2012-06-17, 11:32 AM
Time to get an extended signature, it seems. :smalltongue:

Anything we can do to make your work easier?

Well, getting an Extended Homebrewer's Signature is a great start, for one, so you're technically helping a tiny bit already. :smallwink:

Making my work easier... I dunno if that could be done, but pointing out great classes, suggesting Tags for new classes or classes already listed, suggesting Tiers or providing solid arguments for a change of Tiers of an already listed class are things I am very much hoping to see in this thread and I thank the people who have done a bit of that already.

Other than that, I guess you can try help in making this work stay fun, because as long as it keeps that way, I'll keep doing it. :smallbiggrin:


Are you going in order of submission or what?

Nope. I've done something similar to this before, where I DID go in order of submission, but it ended up feeling like a drag largely because of that and people complaining when I accidentally skipped someone. I'm still doing this primarily for myself and as a service to my players (both real life and PbP), with a secondary goal of helping provide a quick evaluation for DMs and players here, as well as giving homebrewers a bit of an idea on where their works stand.


Do note that although they get access to the whole range of spells from a list they number per day they can cast is very limited and also uses the cleric casting mechanic. Not solid tier 1 material, although probably still in that category overall. I'd personally say borderline tier 1 and tier 3.

It highly depends on what spell list they choose. They have the spellcasting mechanic of a Tier 1 class and can get access to a spell list of their choice, in which case most players would go for the cleric, druid or sorcerer/wizard list, which are all Tier 1 classes (Tier 2 for the Sorcerer, but the spellcasting mechanic is more like the Wizard's, making it Tier 1). It doesn't matter if they get less spells, the point is that they get them, up to level 9.

The class drops to Tier 3 if the spell list of a different class is chosen (Adept, Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade, Healer, Hexblade, Magewright, Warmage, etc) or if extensive amounts of cleric/druid/sorcerer/wizard spells are banned or nerfed, but the latter is also needed to bring Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes down to Tier 3, while the former entirely depends on player choice. I'll make note of that though, and put the class under Variable Tier.

First though, I will review the class more to see how much they contribute to the class' versatility and power, see what Tier they would be if they did not have Auspices at all. What do you say?


Since I'm betting you didn't notice the Barrier Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177861) lurking in my extended sig...

:smalltongue:

I have 0 ranks in Search and Spot, obviously I will need a hand! I'll get to it all in due time, but "due time" can be a very long time if relatively unknown classes aren't brought to my attention, either by someone posting a link to them or someone who posts in this thread having the link to such a class in their signature or EHS.

Morph Bark
2012-06-17, 02:33 PM
Apparently right now the Tier list refuses to be updated at the moment, so I can't add in some of the requested classes. :smallfrown:

I will be adding more classes later including these, but later this week I will have an important exam, so studying is going to be my priority. In the meantime, keep the comments, suggestions and requests coming! Feel free to discuss Tiers, Tags and classes amongst yourselves as well.

In the meantime, I'm glad that even people not posting here apparently really appreciate the effort!



Also, seeing the Grandmaster in your signature, I'd like you to know that I've Tiered (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245701) it recently. Hope you don't mind too awfully.

I saw that! My First thoughts: :smalleek: Someone likes my stuff!

DracoDei
2012-06-17, 03:56 PM
In case it matters, I updated my submission post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13390631&postcount=50) with the tags and tiers I would guess would be appropriate for both my submissions.

Morph Bark
2012-06-17, 07:26 PM
In case it matters, I updated my submission post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13390631&postcount=50) with the tags and tiers I would guess would be appropriate for both my submissions.

I'll be sure to take a look at the Guardian of Minds later then and review it. I'll wait until you've redone the Grace-Gift all proper. :smallsmile:


And now, answers to all people on the first page that I haven't Tiered yet (or have reviewed earlier in this thread):

As above, so below. All my stuff's free for review/inclusion. I tried to keep my bloodlines tier-3ish. Arcane Engineer is almost certainly Tier 1. Scattered PrCs are scattered.

Found your Arcane Engineer and my eyes nearly popped out. I think I will reserve it for when I got time and patience for a Big Read!


Feel Free to tier my one-and-only base class (in my sig), and any other stuff I happen to come up with in the future.

I think the Beast Warrior could function much more easily if instead of making a new skill specifically for the class you either use a level check or a different skill (Concentration would seem logical, or maybe Autohypnosis if you want to keep to Wis?).

Also, 2nd level Beast abilities cost 1-2 points, 4th level ones cost 3-4 and 6th level ones cost 4-5. However, the skills themselves don't mention which it is, so that needs to be clarified (or just simply make each ability have a cost equal to its level.

Another problem is that they get 2 Beast abilities each level, but there aren't enough Beast abilities for them to take. From levels 7-10, 3rd level abilities are the highest level you have access to, but there are only 4 of them. In general I imagine most players would want to pick the highest level abilities available when leveling up, which would mean the class needs more than 8 different abilities for level 3 and level 4 abilities and more than 6 for the others. Some level 1 abilities might better fit as higher level ones instead, such as Hide From Notice. There are also very few abilities you can take more than once by the looks of it, which is a bit of a shame.

Overall, the class is pretty solid it seems to me. It goes for the same party spot as a Totemist, but due to being unable to change Beast abilities as a Totemist changes soulmelds, this means they are more stuck in what they build for. Some abilities, such as Beast Form, seem pretty obvious for their versatility, which could boost it up to low- or mid-Tier 3 along with some of the other abilities, but then I saw that Beast Form grants enhancement bonuses rather than size bonuses. Remember that these do not stack with enhancement bonuses of items, even if those items remain while in Beast Form. (You don't actually mention what happens to items in Beast Form, so I figure you meant for the same thing to happen as during Wildshape, which means they meld into your form and become useless unless they are made to work with the ability, for which there are plenty).


What's that, another place to selfishly promote my Wizard? Why, I never! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233664)

Considering it looks like it comes with its own new magic system (well, a revamp, but still), this'll be on the Big Read backburner until I got time and patience for it. Thanks for showing it to me though! I know you have some nifty homebrew to your name, but never saw that, nor do I often come across other things.


Mine as well. :)

DOVAHKIIN, DOVAHKIIN, NAAL OK ZIN LOS VAHRIIN
WAH DEIN VOKUL MAHFAERAAK AHST VAAL
AHRK FIN NOROK PAAL GRAAN, FOD NUST HON ZINDRO ZAAN
DOVAHKIIN, FAH HIN KOGAAN MU DRAAL

That is to say, much yes.


I'll go ahead and throw mine up to (see the sig). Just don't go into the corner (tis scary).

I've seen the Onmyoji before. Think I'll start on that soon.


All my stuff is fair game for you to review... if it is done, at least.

Just peruse the forums with the nice search function (haven't gotten around to making my sig all link filled, sorry).

"If it is done" sounds like a given, though wise to mention! I should prod you to finish your Base Class Challenge entries more often. :smalltongue:

Anyways, I'll see if I can find some of yours if you don't list some of your works (either here or in your signature or in the EHS thread). Admittably though, I will have no idea what I am looking for and the times where I've only searched for someone's username or "[username] homebrew", I ended up with little. Google has found me more things, but even Google missed some things for me before, unless I had seen the thread before anyway. No search is full-proof it seems.


By the by, anything of mine that you can find is free and open.

^ :smalltongue:

More seriously though, a Tiering/review/whatever is coming up for the Harrowed, I assure you.


Feel free to go over what paltry homebrew I have to my name.

Yeah, I saw you recently posted this class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244939). The basic concept is relevant to my interests! It also looks like it could use some more PEACHing first.

EVERYONE, GO PEACH THAT CLASS.


I will join the agreement that you can tag my stuff... actually curious to see what you think.

The Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226720)! I've seen that one before.

Look at Me! should be specified that it doesn't make the target creature flat-footed against the Shield himself, considering the target is so focused on the Shield. Turtling shouldn't stack with itself if you don't make use of the counter attack (as in, the extra +4 each time and increasing the multiplier each time), just once is plenty enough. Or limit it to one extra time every 10 levels rather than every 5, so that at level 20 you get a +12 bonus and a x4 multiplier rather than +20 and x6.

Overall, it's pretty good and kicks the Knight in the face as it steps over him to stand atop at a higher Tier level. I'd say it is Tier 4, but likely high up in it. Dunno if it might be enough to really count as a borderliner, but we can always see what others think of it.


Free tier evaluation? Sure:

*snip*
Pyromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12792207&postcount=13)

Getting right to the one that matters. I think it's a very solid class, but I'll need to check again what it does with its Ember Points and what it can do against fire resistance/immunity. If both those are in order, I think it can go harass the Botanimorphist in Tier 4.


And on that note, I think I can now give another answer to Ernir's earlier question:

Anything we can do to make your work easier?

This week I will have an exam, as well as the next week, both just one, but I will want to focus more on that and less on this. There are two things y'all can do for me in the meantime. As such:


REQUEST
Keep this thread alive.
Go check and PEACH Othesemo's Channeler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244939)! It looks like a great class to me with a quick skim, but won't have time to fully review it. It is sorely in need of PEACHing though, so go give it to him!

Mithril Leaf
2012-06-17, 07:36 PM
It highly depends on what spell list they choose. They have the spellcasting mechanic of a Tier 1 class and can get access to a spell list of their choice, in which case most players would go for the cleric, druid or sorcerer/wizard list, which are all Tier 1 classes (Tier 2 for the Sorcerer, but the spellcasting mechanic is more like the Wizard's, making it Tier 1). It doesn't matter if they get less spells, the point is that they get them, up to level 9.

The class drops to Tier 3 if the spell list of a different class is chosen (Adept, Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade, Healer, Hexblade, Magewright, Warmage, etc) or if extensive amounts of cleric/druid/sorcerer/wizard spells are banned or nerfed, but the latter is also needed to bring Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes down to Tier 3, while the former entirely depends on player choice. I'll make note of that though, and put the class under Variable Tier.

First though, I will review the class more to see how much they contribute to the class' versatility and power, see what Tier they would be if they did not have Auspices at all. What do you say?

But of course, I was simply reminding you not to dismiss the class to tier one offhand. I'd also bet that our personal definitions of tiers vary very slightly. Cool class though.

Cipher Stars
2012-06-17, 07:51 PM
I'm gonna back track a bit and give you the classes I'd rather give priority. Though I'd still like all my classes Tier'd up, these are the ones I'd actually really care about:

Labyrinth Knight v2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245882), Necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13354437#post13354437), Tendersoul AND Pureheart (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11283217#post11283217) Variant, Stylist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11180420#post11180420), and Eternal Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230354).
Perhaps my new Godsblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13412176#post13412176)as well.

bobthe6th
2012-06-17, 08:00 PM
The Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226720)! I've seen that one before.

Look at Me! should be specified that it doesn't make the target creature flat-footed against the Shield himself, considering the target is so focused on the Shield. Turtling shouldn't stack with itself if you don't make use of the counter attack (as in, the extra +4 each time and increasing the multiplier each time), just once is plenty enough. Or limit it to one extra time every 10 levels rather than every 5, so that at level 20 you get a +12 bonus and a x4 multiplier rather than +20 and x6.

Overall, it's pretty good and kicks the Knight in the face as it steps over him to stand atop at a higher Tier level. I'd say it is Tier 4, but likely high up in it. Dunno if it might be enough to really count as a borderliner, but we can always see what others think of it.


well on, it is that way as they are focused on hiiting the shield(a rather difficult proposition) but a good idea.
and the thing for turteling was that it is a melee focused class, with a medium BAB... but a fair point again. It is packed to bursting with random nice things. it could lose some damage potential... but perchance 8th and 16th as damage buffs, so the full damage is seen through levels people will play more? then it could progress in epic at 24th, 32nd and so on...

but yeah, I wanted a real tank. not a pansy McHero fantasy who is hopelessly idealistic. Though as is, the majority of the class is just giving stuff you could get with items(short of magic immunity and look at me!), I could see it as T4... would adding a small infusion progression bump it a tier? like the artificer with a more constrained list and making con the casting stat?

DracoDei
2012-06-17, 09:41 PM
I'll be sure to take a look at the Guardian of Minds later then and review it. I'll wait until you've redone the Grace-Gift all proper. :smallsmile:
Sounds good. One clarification on the Guardian of Minds that I only noticed recently (long after the thread was locked), was that ALL the fear immunity/bonus stuff is extended to include magical fear when under the effects of Moral Champion.

Eldan
2012-06-18, 01:03 AM
I had this wonderful long post detailing all the tags for the wizard, and how they applied. Then the forum ate it. So...

[Arcane], [Unique], [Books], [Buffer], [Debuffer], [Crafter], [Healer], [Sage], I think.

Lord_Gareth
2012-06-18, 09:15 AM
I AM aware that the Harrowed still needs major revisions, by the by. Still working on it.

Morph Bark
2012-06-18, 07:16 PM
Alright people, this is going to be my last post here until Thursday night, so any posts I haven't yet replied to or adressed otherwise will wait until then.



well on, it is that way as they are focused on hiiting the shield(a rather difficult proposition) but a good idea.
and the thing for turteling was that it is a melee focused class, with a medium BAB... but a fair point again. It is packed to bursting with random nice things. it could lose some damage potential... but perchance 8th and 16th as damage buffs, so the full damage is seen through levels people will play more? then it could progress in epic at 24th, 32nd and so on...

but yeah, I wanted a real tank. not a pansy McHero fantasy who is hopelessly idealistic. Though as is, the majority of the class is just giving stuff you could get with items(short of magic immunity and look at me!), I could see it as T4... would adding a small infusion progression bump it a tier? like the artificer with a more constrained list and making con the casting stat?

Adding in a lesser Infusion progression would certainly help it, yeah. Perhaps a stunted progression, that starts at level 4, gives you 2nd-level infusions at level 7, 3rd-level ones at 11th and 4th-level ones at 15th, but never grants 5th- or 6th-level infusions? That, coupled with cutting out a few unfitting ones and perhaps creating a handful of your own adds a lot of extra customizability and versatility to the class, which would indeed bump it up to Tier 3.


So, I Tiered a bunch of other classes earlier, mainly classes I've had brushes with in the past but also a bunch of requested ones (some others will follow at the end of the week), so here is the Tiering I made for them. I'd like some comments and suggestions for them as well, as I may have forgotten some Tags or small abilities that change the Tiering possibly.



Tier 1:
Golden Alchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170912) [Unique, Face, Magic, Moneymaker]

Tier 2:
Blue Mage (http://web.archive.org/web/20070221040337/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=137596) [Video Game, Arcane, Vancian, Magic, Ranged]
Blue Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12648559#post12648559) [Video Game, Magic, Melee]
Soulweaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236890) [Horror, Face, Healer, Magic]

High Tier 3:
Planeswalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189767) [Arcane, Vancian, Face, Healer, Magic, Sage, Scout]
Teleporter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168948) [Arcane, Vancian, Face, Magic]

Tier 3:
Companion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12968174&postcount=15) [Arcane, Vancian, Face, Magic, Sage, Scout]
Gambler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10423607&postcount=14) [Original, Buffer, Debuffer, Face]
Librarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12465524) [Arcane, Divine, Martial Adept, Sage]
Lord of the Uttercold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195580) [Japan, Arcane, Vancian, Face, Magic, Melee]
Overdrive Knight (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528458/Overdrive_Master_P.E.A.C.H_by_Moonsprite) [Video Game, Face, Magic, Melee, Expanded]

Tier 4:
Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226720) [Melee, Tank]
Pyromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12792207&postcount=13) [Face, Healer, Magic, Ranged]

Tier 5:
Farmer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12299738&postcount=5) [Silly, Historical, Melee]

Variable Tier:
Traveller (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12985985) [Original, Arcane, Divine, Face, Sage]
The Traveller is a Variable Tier class because it’s casting mechanic is effectively like the cleric’s in practice and they can choose what class’ spell list they have access to. Thus, they can choose the Cleric, Druid or Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, which would make them Tier 1. Any other class’ spell list that includes spells up to level 9 will make the class a Tier 3. Choosing a spell list that only goes up to level 4, 5 or 6 makes this class Tier 4.

Madara
2012-06-18, 07:20 PM
Just one Tier request

The Wordsmith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246960)

Yes, it is based on one of the most fun games ever :smallbiggrin:

Pyromancer999
2012-06-18, 10:59 PM
Hmm...while a majority of my Pyromancer class is setting things aflame(:smallsmile:), I'd personally put it at tier 3, or borderline tier 3-4, because while what it does best involves fire, it can also heal and put itself on the front lines for a little while if need be. So, while its focus is damaging stuff with fire, it can do a few other things as well, albeit not as well as the classes that focus on that stuff. Still, in the end, I trust your judgmentmand just wanted to put out my opinion on the Pyromancer's tier placement.

thereaper
2012-06-19, 12:59 AM
If you ever have the time, I'd be interested to see where you think my Mythic Warrior class falls (I was shooting for a T3 Fighter, but I suspect it might fall into T4). Link is in sig.

ideasmith
2012-06-19, 07:24 AM
Looks like someone is in need of an Extended Homebrewer's Signature, maybe? :smalltongue:
Thank you for the suggestion. Done ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13419819#post13419819 ).

I'd suggest making the feat progression maybe Fighter-like or less and limit
Done ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145378 ).

them to feats that grant bonuses to skills (or feats that have such viable feats as prerequisites), with of course the Crackerjack still needing to qualify for the feats as normal. This allows him access to Dragontouched and Aberrant Blood and derivatives, among others, but still mainly focuses on the skills and leaves out all the Fighter feats, Wizard feats, etc.
Limiting the feats to skill-related would either make work for the DM (if I left it to the DM to decide which feats were skill-related) or leave odd gaps (because a source I don’t have which the DM uses has skill-related feats). For example, by the wording you suggest (“feats that grant bonuses to skills (or feats that have such viable feats as prerequisites)”), Track wouldn’t be a Crackerjack bonus feat.

TheWombatOfDoom
2012-06-19, 08:18 AM
While I currently do not have any posted homebrews myself, I greatly respect and value this idea and will honor it by assisting in not letting it die. Additionally, once I have some well PEACH'd homebrew, I'll be sure to follow those before me and sub(shamelessly plug)mit it.

Either way, I shall also look for base classes for you, and hope not to get repeats that have already been posted.

Morph Bark
2012-06-21, 12:31 PM
But of course, I was simply reminding you not to dismiss the class to tier one offhand. I'd also bet that our personal definitions of tiers vary very slightly. Cool class though.

Good thing in the end I didn't, coming back to review the class fully, eh? :smalltongue: One should never dismiss something easily like such, though I will if it is plainly badly made or the presentation sucks (for instance, if the whole class is bolded, has no table and is one giant merged block of text, to put it extremely).

I mainly try to stick to the "official" definition, so to say, hence why I often also compare classes to official ones and where those stand on the Tier list. Incarnum, for instance, is Borderline 3-4 if done well (Incarnate, Totemist), while ToB is generally Tier 3 and most spellcasting and psionics is Tier 3 and up.


Just one Tier request

The Wordsmith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246960)

Yes, it is based on one of the most fun games ever :smallbiggrin:

Since it is a very new class, I will wait a while with Tiering it, so that you have time to get it reviewed and get suggestions to change it, update it, add to it, subtract from it and so on. The concept is a very cool one though, just like the game it comes from.


Hmm...while a majority of my Pyromancer class is setting things aflame(:smallsmile:), I'd personally put it at tier 3, or borderline tier 3-4, because while what it does best involves fire, it can also heal and put itself on the front lines for a little while if need be. So, while its focus is damaging stuff with fire, it can do a few other things as well, albeit not as well as the classes that focus on that stuff. Still, in the end, I trust your judgmentmand just wanted to put out my opinion on the Pyromancer's tier placement.

It is a decent healer too, yeah, but healing isn't that big of a deal in 3.5 and damage is easy to do well with nearly all classes of Tier 4 and up. It can go into melee, but the abilities it gets for that seem to be more abilities that are useful to make sure you don't become a target if you accidentally end up in melee, not an incentive to actually go into melee. The feature that adds fire damage to a weapon also seems like it would be much better on a ranged weapon, especially since you're supposed to keep Dex your secondary high stat and Str is dump-worthy.


Limiting the feats to skill-related would either make work for the DM (if I left it to the DM to decide which feats were skill-related) or leave odd gaps (because a source I don’t have which the DM uses has skill-related feats). For example, by the wording you suggest (“feats that grant bonuses to skills (or feats that have such viable feats as prerequisites)”), Track wouldn’t be a Crackerjack bonus feat.

Hmmm, that's a good point. The problem with making all feats accessible though, is that you open up for cheese that will bump it up to Tier 2 in a heartbeat, putting the class all over the place. A different wording than the one I suggested previously might be much better though, so that'd it'd include feats like Track. (Although Track is way too easily reduced to a railroading tool, so that might be a bad example.)


If you ever have the time, I'd be interested to see where you think my Mythic Warrior class falls (I was shooting for a T3 Fighter, but I suspect it might fall into T4). Link is in sig.

It falls in Tier 4 territory pretty clearly. The abilities it gets at low-level are pretty weak, aside from Rage (which it can do more often than a Barbarian right off the bat, which is a good thing, but rather invalidates the entire Barbarian), which made me think it might end up falling into low Tier 4, relying mostly on Rage to pull it up. Dispelling Strike is good though, while Dismember can be overpowered, instantly getting rid of up to three worn magic items (ring, glove, bracer) and a held one, which might even completely invalidate them since two-handed fighting is the most common style in DnD. Furthermore, since "limb" is a loose definition, the ability might even allow the cutting off of heads, which in most cases is an instant kill (though since you have Behead as a capstone, one could infer you at least don't intend for the cutting off of heads with Dismember). The Ignore Force ability is likewise very powerful and might be better to instead be a dispel check like dispelling strike as a free action during movement, with perhaps allowing the expenditure of additional adrenaline to grant a large bonus on the dispel check (+6 or +8 or so). Overall, the class seems to have mainly some low bonuses to things with a few incredibly powerful abilities, making it hard to see the intended balance point had you not stated you mean to go for Tier 3. As a result, you instead end up with a Tier 4 with a few abilities that wouldn't look bad on a Tier 2.


Other classes to look over are currently on my to-do list, though it will be put on hold tomorrow evening through next Wednesday morning, as I'll be near-completely unavailable during that time.

Pyromancer999
2012-06-21, 02:12 PM
It is a decent healer too, yeah, but healing isn't that big of a deal in 3.5 and damage is easy to do well with nearly all classes of Tier 4 and up. It can go into melee, but the abilities it gets for that seem to be more abilities that are useful to make sure you don't become a target if you accidentally end up in melee, not an incentive to actually go into melee. The feature that adds fire damage to a weapon also seems like it would be much better on a ranged weapon, especially since you're supposed to keep Dex your secondary high stat and Str is dump-worthy.


True, it doesn't actually do those things as well as other classes. But here's the difference between tier 3 and tier 4:

Tier 4: I'm awesome at this one thing!
Tier 3: I'm awesome at this one thing!....plus I can do a couple other things semi-decently

Hence why I made the case for it being a tier 3 or tier 3-4 borderline.

Morph Bark
2012-06-21, 08:14 PM
True, it doesn't actually do those things as well as other classes. But here's the difference between tier 3 and tier 4:

Tier 4: I'm awesome at this one thing!
Tier 3: I'm awesome at this one thing!....plus I can do a couple other things semi-decently

Hence why I made the case for it being a tier 3 or tier 3-4 borderline.

Tier 4 can also be "I'm pretty good at these few things!" hence why I ended up putting it under Tier 4. Of course, you are more versed with the class as it is your own, so you likely know better ways to get the most out of it, which would up the effective Tier for it. :smallsmile:

Admittably, I was comparing it with other Tier 4 classes I've already put up before, amongst which was my Botanimorphist, which I've ended up concluding is actually more fit for Tier 5 as-is, mainly because it sorely needs an update that I neglected to give it right after that contest was over (which would make it a capable healer and add much-needed versatility to the class, so it wouldn't need to rely on just its Bulbling).


Also, I've looked over some classes, including Jarian's Ascetic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193791) and was thinking... originally I hadn't really considered how many "Fix" classes there are (which the Ascetic sorta falls under for the Monk prettymuch). Since I'd actually rather keep Fixes seperate from other classes, what does everyone think of me putting up Tiers for Fix classes seperately from the rest below the other Tiered classes? That way I'd likely end up including more Fix classes than I would under the current idea (which was mainly for original concept classes). Of course, these Fix Class Tiers would be limited to Fixes that actually increase the Tier of the class they aim to fix (or lower it in case of Tier 1-2 classes).

Thoughts?

Madara
2012-06-21, 09:33 PM
Thoughts?

That sounds good. It would probably help with the organization, especially once there are more classes in this Compendium. Right now, it isn't too hard to look through them all and figure out which ones are fixes, but it'll be more difficult later.

DracoDei
2012-06-21, 10:02 PM
+Also, I've looked over some classes, including Jarian's Ascetic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193791) and was thinking... originally I hadn't really considered how many "Fix" classes there are (which the Ascetic sorta falls under for the Monk prettymuch). Since I'd actually rather keep Fixes seperate from other classes, what does everyone think of me putting up Tiers for Fix classes seperately from the rest below the other Tiered classes? That way I'd likely end up including more Fix classes than I would under the current idea (which was mainly for original concept classes). Of course, these Fix Class Tiers would be limited to Fixes that actually increase the Tier of the class they aim to fix (or lower it in case of Tier 1-2 classes).

Thoughts?

I am in favor of this.

Techwarrior
2012-06-21, 10:05 PM
I am also in favor of such a listing.

Jarian
2012-06-22, 05:18 AM
I was looking over the Soulweaver again, and I'm not sure where its tier 2 ranking comes from. It has powerful summons, yeah, but sheer power does not a tier 2 make. It doesn't have access to much (if any) of the tier 1 tricks, which by default should put it into tier 3, I would think? Maybe with a note as to why you think it's tier 2 potentially?

Iunno.

In other news, I agree with a separate list for printed class fixes.

Empedocles
2012-06-22, 07:59 AM
I'd really love to see what you think of my chosen warrior, in my sig, which is based on Link from Zelda.

Morph Bark
2012-06-22, 11:00 AM
A quick last post before I am gone for the weekend. I'll be back to Tiering on Wednesday after my last exam, so stay tuned for some changes and additions to the system, more classes and more Tiering!


I was looking over the Soulweaver again, and I'm not sure where its tier 2 ranking comes from. It has powerful summons, yeah, but sheer power does not a tier 2 make. It doesn't have access to much (if any) of the tier 1 tricks, which by default should put it into tier 3, I would think? Maybe with a note as to why you think it's tier 2 potentially?

It was actually an honest derp. I meant to put it in High Tier 3, though it could maybe have been Tier 2 if its undead lasted longer. Minionmancy is very versatile and very powerful, making the action economy its little female dog. The Soulweaver isn't too strong with his Horde though, due to its limitations (requiring swift actions to keep up, making it limited to one day unless the Soulweaver is undead or a warforged; with on the other hand the undead not being all that game-breaking by far).


If more people are in favour of the seperate Tiering for Fix Classes, feel free to start bringing in some, I'll get to them in time!

For now, I shall bid you all adieu.

Jarian
2012-06-22, 11:14 AM
If more people are in favour of the seperate Tiering for Fix Classes, feel free to start bringing in some, I'll get to them in time!

Ninja (Circle of Life) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213075)
Ninja (T. G. Oskar) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127673)
Scoundrel (Circle of Life, Rogue/Swashbuckler 'fix'?) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227772)
Warlock (T. G. Oskar) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212830)

Then there's Oskar's massive Paladin overhaul thread, but I'm pretty sure that's popular enough that 99% of gitp knows about it already.

JeminiZero
2012-06-22, 12:00 PM
A quick last post before I am gone for the weekend. I'll be back to Tiering on Wednesday after my last exam

You probably won't read this, but here's wishing you good luck.


If more people are in favour of the seperate Tiering for Fix Classes, feel free to start bringing in some, I'll get to them in time!

Here's some of Jiriku's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10523436&postcount=110) stuff:

Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)
Daring Outlaw (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188150)
Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194834)
Healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192141)
Knight Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187700)
Soulcrafter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215075) (soulknife)
Swift Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170358)

Interestingly, the Trissociate was also formulated in part as a base class fix. With the idea being that if you wanted a better Dragon Shaman, you would stack together, half-dragon, Draconic auras, and whatever else fit the character flavor (e.g. Sublime Maneuvers, Sorcerer spells, or gem dragon Psionics) to come up with something half-way competent. :smallbiggrin:

kanachi
2012-06-24, 02:50 PM
Hiya Morph,

Could I get your thoughts on my Trueforge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244379)class which is currently in the Base Class Challenge?

I would be interested what you think of it and where you believe it comes in terms of tiering.

Thanks! :)

Empedocles
2012-06-24, 02:52 PM
Could you explain the tier 4 for the chosen warrior? I'm curious, since a lot of people agreed it was low tier 3.

wayfare
2012-06-24, 04:10 PM
I've been waiting for something like this!

Could you take a look at my Fighter (not really done, but still):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242689

and the Harbinger, a sort of warrior diviner:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244491

Morph Bark
2012-06-27, 05:57 PM
Then there's Oskar's massive Paladin overhaul thread, but I'm pretty sure that's popular enough that 99% of gitp knows about it already.

You'd be surprised. Quite a lot of people I've talked to only visit one or two parts of the forums and are completely unaware of any homebrewing that goes on here. :smalltongue:


You probably won't read this, but here's wishing you good luck.

Heh, sadly it appears luck was far from my side the past week. I'll have to not buy new clothes and ration my food for the coming year if I want to finish college.


Hiya Morph,

Could I get your thoughts on my Trueforge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244379)class which is currently in the Base Class Challenge?

I would be interested what you think of it and where you believe it comes in terms of tiering.

Thanks! :)

Since that BCC is still in progress, I will wait until after it has concluded with Tiering it. Suffice to say that I will get to it in due time.


Could you explain the tier 4 for the chosen warrior? I'm curious, since a lot of people agreed it was low tier 3.

I'll get back to you on that, poke me later here if I forget. I just thought I'd reply to let you know I didn't forget you either.

Do you think it would be bad if it is Tier 4 though?


EDIT: I've added Fix Class Tiers in the fourth post with a different kind of Tagging, as well as something on subsystems and such in the third post. What do you all think of the Tagging here? I haven't added Role Tags yet, but those might not even be necessary, since they prettymuch have the same role as the official classes anyway.

Kane0
2012-06-27, 07:23 PM
Hey, just popping in to say nice work and I hope it turns out well :smallsmile:

Oh, two things:
- Could you add the name of the creators on the classes you have tiered already?
- What the sit rep on my brews? I'm in no hurry but I'm always curious :smallwink:

Morph Bark
2012-06-28, 07:44 AM
Hey, just popping in to say nice work and I hope it turns out well :smallsmile:

Oh, two things:
- Could you add the name of the creators on the classes you have tiered already?
- What the sit rep on my brews? I'm in no hurry but I'm always curious :smallwink:

Thanks, I can say I definitely share those hopes. :smallbiggrin:

Is that necessary? I don't really feel like doing that for the original classes, as the balance for those tends to be all over the place, even for a single creator's work. When it comes to re-works/tools/vamps/makings/doings, the creator generally has much more of a solid aim, at least those homebrewers who have multiple Fix classes to their name.

And what's a sit rep? Sounds like something you'd do in the gym.


Anyhoo, I've added the following classes:

High Tier 3: Blade Scholar, Eternal Royal, Scholar. Currently considering moving one or more of these to Tier 2.
Tier 3: Battle Psychic, Soul Disciple, Sublime Matador, Sublime Archer, Warlord.
Tier 4: Gentle Fist Adept and moved the Limit Freak and Limit Monk here from Borderline Tier 3-4.
Tier 5: Fanatic.

The Tome of Battle homebrew discipline listing has been expanded somewhat as well. I am currently thinking I should change the way I tag it though. Instead of what I have now, I'm thinking of changing it to this:
Discipline Name
Creator: Name. Tier: Tier 2-3-4. Skill: Skill. Weapons: Cutty, pokey and crushy. Theme: Theme or themes. Comments:


Alternatively:

Discipline Name
Creator: Name.
Tier: Tier 2-3-4.
Skill: Skill.
Weapons: Cutty, pokey and crushy.
Theme: Theme or themes.
Comments:

How does that look?


Disciplines still to go:
Before you ask, no, your discipline is not in this list. :P Go ahead and tell me about it.

MESSY LINK TIME
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137024
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140347
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=112.0
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4591.0
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133462
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130232
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48255
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7780197#post7780197
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143684
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8336928#post8336928
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150256
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Mrityulok_(3.5e_Location)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238217
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7754436&postcount=348
http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/schools
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143785
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122533
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113982
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137838
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4112249&postcount=26
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156540&page=2
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8504410#post8504410
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110561
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186378
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3410915&postcount=5
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45205
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135459
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102869
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19526550/Base_Class_Sublime_Assassin__Black_Lotus_Disciplin e_PEACH_please
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134667
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134459

JeminiZero
2012-06-28, 07:51 AM
And what's a sit rep? Sounds like something you'd do in the gym.

Its short for Situation Report.

Jarian
2012-06-28, 08:22 AM
Oh hey, speaking of ToB, Soul Blade and Warrior's Soul discipline. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208842)

Edit: Warrior-Poet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235823)

Garryl
2012-06-28, 11:36 AM
Your discipline list is missing Sublime Tapestry (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1351). It's always nice to see a compilation of, well, everything around. Thanks for doing this.

I have a few classes of my own (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=241), and I'd also like to mention Sirpercival's ritual classes (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=74).

Madara
2012-06-28, 02:28 PM
Just one Tier request

The Wordsmith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246960)

Yes, it is based on one of the most fun games ever :smallbiggrin:

I'll just push this forward again, if enough time has passed for you.

Morph Bark
2012-06-29, 09:14 AM
Oh hey, speaking of ToB, Soul Blade and Warrior's Soul discipline. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208842)

Edit: Warrior-Poet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235823)

I'm getting a hunch you like Circle of Life's work. :smalltongue:


Your discipline list is missing Sublime Tapestry (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1351). It's always nice to see a compilation of, well, everything around. Thanks for doing this.

I have a few classes of my own (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=241), and I'd also like to mention Sirpercival's ritual classes (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=74).

The first link made me have a moment of "yo dawg, we heard you like maneuvers, so we put some maneuvers in your maneuvers, so you can initiate while you initiate".

Also, I'd like to note that this won't be a compilation of everything around. I don't plan on including things that are unplayable, too incomplete, badly done or just very boring.

I like the new spells you made for your Medic, by the way. Very nice.


I'll just push this forward again, if enough time has passed for you.

Indeed it has. Plus I see you've gotten plenty of comments on it too, so kudos! It seems to me like it would fall into potentially Tier 2 pre-level 10, depending on how creative the players would be with their Words, otherwise being Tier 3, lower even if they aren't imaginative at all. Greater Creatures is dangerous though, putting it into Tier 2 for sure for the same reasons as why a Truenamer would be Tier 2 (or above, I'm not sure if Gate alone would put it at Tier 1). At level 20 he gets access to Solars, which have exactly 22 HD. This is why you need to beware with HD limits. CR may not always be an appropriate standard (in case of dragons and 3.0 monsters mostly), but its better than HD in most cases. Otherwise, it's wiser to stick to the same amount of HD or even 2 lower, especially since Outsiders often have CR greater than their HD.

Madara
2012-06-29, 11:00 AM
Indeed it has. Plus I see you've gotten plenty of comments on it too, so kudos! It seems to me like it would fall into potentially Tier 2 pre-level 10, depending on how creative the players would be with their Words, otherwise being Tier 3, lower even if they aren't imaginative at all. Greater Creatures is dangerous though, putting it into Tier 2 for sure for the same reasons as why a Truenamer would be Tier 2 (or above, I'm not sure if Gate alone would put it at Tier 1). At level 20 he gets access to Solars, which have exactly 22 HD. This is why you need to beware with HD limits. CR may not always be an appropriate standard (in case of dragons and 3.0 monsters mostly), but its better than HD in most cases. Otherwise, it's wiser to stick to the same amount of HD or even 2 lower, especially since Outsiders often have CR greater than their HD.

I think I might stick a Cap on it in that case. The balancing piece in my mind is that you have no control over such creatures from Greater Creatures. As such, summoning a Solar does very little good unless you're fighting a Demon. Even then, its under the DM's control and the best use is summoning something as a meatshield.Thanks for the comments, and I agree with your Tiering. It doesn't have the raw power of a wizard or pure spellcaster, but it does have ways of being effective.

Jarian
2012-06-29, 11:13 AM
I'm getting a hunch you like Circle of Life's work. :smalltongue:

Mostly I just have a lot of his stuff bookmarked, and don't for others. It's easier to click a bookmark and C/P than it is to trawl the entire homebrew subforum looking for something you missed. :smalltongue:

While we're on the subject of ToB though, Blademaster. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120539)

Techwarrior
2012-06-29, 12:10 PM
If I may, I would like to request another look at the Mage Slayer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244192) It has recieved a reworking of it's capstone, revamp of several abilities, and several other nifty mage hunting abilities. It also recieved some more versatility by expanding what feats it's allowed to choose for bonus feats.

DracoDei
2012-06-29, 07:00 PM
Well, if you are doing disciplines, I would like to request a tiering of Falling Anvil (in my NOT extended signature, as well as my extended signature). Everybody kept trying to tell me that balance wasn't as important for a humorous homebrew, but that line of argument has never held any water with me. And, yes, I know the cap-stone doesn't specify the mechanical effects of being buried alive X inches deep in various types of materials.

EDIT: The alternate improved format (so the second one in the spoiler), is the one I like the best. It also looks like you aren't really saying WHY things get or don't get the stamp of approval...

Also, Black Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99529) and Breath of Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143684) are worth a look simply because they are very specific, so their inclusion or exclusion really can influence the flavor of the campaign since there isn't a good alternative to replace them with. Note that none of the Breath of Fire maneuvers having prerequisites was completely intentional on the author's part.

Zaydos
2012-06-29, 07:21 PM
Just wanted to chime in and say I think you're awesome for doing this.

Also feel free to do anything in my extended sig. It shouldn't include anything I've actually disowned.

EdroGrimshell
2012-06-29, 07:30 PM
Could I request you tiering the two complete base classes in my Sig? The Runner and Ascetic. The Runescar is on hold for now but is still being worked on, so i may request that one later on.

EDIT: I honestly don't know what tier they would be, but they're both combat classes so likely no higher than low three or high four

Jarian
2012-07-01, 02:59 PM
Shameless self-promotion, go! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248161)

I doubt you'll include it without it having any feedback, but I'm awfully fond of it all the same.

Mithril Leaf
2012-07-01, 05:42 PM
Didn't see it in there so I figured I'd ask for my own piece of mind, but could you possibly review the Xenoalchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205119)? A really cool system, not super broken either. I'd personally say mid-tier 3, but there's a reason you're the one doing this.

Waker
2012-07-01, 11:28 PM
Well, though I would have liked to get more input on my class before Tiering it, I don't see that happening. Anyways, could you Tier my Chorister class, conveniently located in my signature.

Morph Bark
2012-07-02, 05:58 AM
I have Tiered the Blademaster and Chorister, since I've seen those before and read them through entirely back then, so I was already familiar with them. I've currently put an Incomplete Tag on the Chorister because it felt incomplete before to me and you yourself said in the thread you were thinking of making more abilities for the class. Plus, the later levels feel rather dead, levels 13 and 16 truly being so. Also, I just noticed that some abilities aren't limited in range, only to whoever can "see or hear you". This means that, hypothetically, they could pick up a microphone or get a news camera and bestow their Hymnal bonuses on everyone in the entire world. Might be a good idea to limit that to less, like the Bard's 60 ft radius. I've put it under Tier 3 because its Hymns are powerful, come in decent variety and a great aid to allies, while the other abilities are good too. It's spellcasting is a bit sub-par, but that is okay and entirely intended (otherwise you would've gone higher than 6th-level).

Tiering may go slow for a while, by the way. While GitP currently sometimes loads alright for me, a lot of the time it also takes a long time to load pages or I get errors and need to reload it. This is being worked on as we type (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13470246), but I don't know when this change will be complete. It might already be complete for me for all I know, but I will find out about that in the next 24 hours in case that is so. It might not be, hence why I thought I'd just mention it.

Anyway, thanks for the continued support, praise, commentary and everything. I'm looking forward to the continuation of such and Tiering more and more classes. :smallcool:

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-04, 12:06 AM
Still patiently awaiting Harrow'd and Malefactor tiers.

Morph Bark
2012-07-04, 08:28 AM
I had actually been waiting to Tier the Harrowed until you had changed it, since you said you were working on that earlier. I've actually received flack from people for not Tiering some classes before others! :smalltongue:

Either way, it seems I can use GitP prettymuch normally again, so allow me to show off my Son of Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248319), my entry into the 12th installment of the Base Class Challenge along with some other nice entries. You can vote for it and others here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248256).


In the meantime, allow me to tell you all a story of my exploits away from GitP while I was having troubles with the site:

While GitP wasn't working as it should be for me, I decided to go to other sites with homebrew on them to Tier classes from there. I had already visited the Minmax boards and Tiered some classes from the WotC forums, even taken a stroll to glance over DragoonWraith's Swordmage on the Competitor forums. This time though? This time I entered the belly of the beast. This time I entered dandwiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page).

Having been there before, I had some small idea of what awaited me. Having heard tons of opinions of others on the place, I should have been rebuffed, but I figured that even in there in that dark place there were classes waiting to be Tiered. I searched through the lists of finished classes, looked over the ratings they had received and decided then and there that I would look through as many as I could just this once.

What I found mostly confirmed my fears.

There were classes that were rated incredibly highly, some even receiving a perfect, which were incredibly crappy. They were largely uninteresting in either fluff or mechanics and mostly both, generic and with balance points all over the place. The greatest amount of classes I found seemed to be aimed at Tier 5, actually aimed at it, for their discussion pages showed their creators being happy with the results and people praising their balance. Other classes casually received all of the features of a cleric, wizard or sorcerer and more without a second though and were likewise praised, with occassionally a single voice crying out "this is too much!" and drowning in the masses.

In the end, I went, I saw, I Tiered. These are the ones out of the whole pile that seem like they might at least have something good going for them.
Autoplate Pilot (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Autoplate_Pilot_(DnD_Class)) (not sure where to put this; it’s been used once in a campaign of mine, but that eventually went on an acid trip, so the class wasn’t recognizable anymore)
Barkeeper (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Barkeeper_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 5)
Battle Shinigami (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_Shinigami_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4-5?)
Deviant (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Deviant_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 2)
Jester (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Jester_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4, low-ish, can be strangely tanky)
Gate Knight (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Gate_Knight_(DnD_Class)) (it looks fair, but it heavily depends on its sacrifices, which I haven’t fully read yet)
Hakurei Shrine Maiden (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hakurei_Shrine_Maiden_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 2)
Hexagunner (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hexagunner_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4-5, this class is rated 20 by several people on its discussion page, but until it gets some of its later ally-buffing abilities it is very weak, this is mainly because Steady Aim is its main feature and requires a round of prep time, which nerfs itself incredibly)
Kido Shinigami (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Kido_Shinigami_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4)
Magical Girl (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Magical_Girl_(3.5e_Class)) (tough one, very blasty though, so probably like the Warmage)
Mechanist (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mechanist_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4, borderline 3 maybe)
Mortician (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mortician_(3.5e_Class)) (hard to Tier, mostly Tier 5, but it has minionmancy 3 levels before Leadership happens, it’s like a lesser necromancer except it gets Animate Dead incredibly early)
Paladin, Kantian (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Kantian_Paladin_(3.5e_Class)) (High Tier 3, one of the best classes on the site, was used in one of my campaigns before)
Red Mage (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Red_Mage_(3.5e_Class)) (pretty nicely put together, I’d put it at Tier 4; doublecast is hella strong, but otherwise it’s like a lesser warmage, so if not for doublecast and the special abilities, it would’ve been Tier 5)
Sandbender (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sandbender_(3.5e_Class)) (dunno, haven’t read all its techniques yet, but it should be noted it gets 30 techniques at level 20 and only has 31 possible ones to choose, so most of them will end up a lot the same)
Sandbinder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sandbinder_(DnD_Class)) (Tier 4 low in normal conditions, Tier 6 in sandless areas, depends heavily on if there’s a distinction made between sand and dirt)
Shinigami (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shinigami_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4-5?, could be the same creator as the Battle Shinigami due to tons of similarities in mechanics, but I don’t know which one is his latest version, as the Battle Shinigami is newer, but the Shinigami has been revised more recently it seems, found the creators page, the Shinigami is meant to be replaced by the Battle Shinigami and Kido Shinigami)
Thief-Acrobat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Thief-Acrobat_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4, some nifty abilities, but nothing really special)
Threat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Threat_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4-5?, kinda reminds me of the barbarian, but most abilities are actually nicer, though the barbarian can get pounce, rage variants and other ACFs that make it better)
Time Bender (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Time_Bender_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 2 with the fetch, I’d say, but it’s way too easy to screw over, making it unplayable)
Weeper (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weeper_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4)

But really, this is so very little when you consider that to get to these I had to dig through hundreds of classes, most of them failed attempts in creating something inspired by an awesome source or ‘fixing’ or creating a variant of an official class, many others being actually successful attempts… at creating something underpowered or overpowered. It was like I was standing on a giant compost heap with my trusty shovel, looking for gemstones and finding just a handful of semi-precious stones. ;_;

kanachi
2012-07-04, 09:07 AM
In the meantime, allow me to tell you all a story of my exploits away from GitP while I was having troubles with the site:

Thanks for posting this, it was an interesting read!

I think this is the advantage of the relatively small homebrew community here on the playground. Generally speaking the more exposure a community has to certain things the more those within it become accustomed to the same unspoken sense of balance, structure and methods.

In general everyones first base class creations are over or under powered (I know mine was). In many cases they are crafted by players seeking to have their class approved by their DM and are sometimes craft without any experience of DMing themselves or without a full understanding of the wider implications their builds may have upon the system as a whole. Also some who are DMs craft things which work perfectly within their own campaign but do not necessarily stand as mechanically balanced or sound in regard to the wider system.

A place like dnd wiki is so highly populated that a lot more people fall into these categories (or others that are similar) and thus the group think of the community slowly becomes more and more diluted towards that way of working.

The same could be said of any community of course, even ours. It could be argued that our builds here are only balanced against each other and our group think perceptions of the wider system.

I just happen to believe that the group think here is more sound.

Waker
2012-07-04, 09:48 AM
It is possible that our own homebrew is acceptable to us simply because the community has a certain ideal for what is balanced, even if it might be biased. If we wanted to be certain, we could see about spreading the classes to other sites like Brilliant Gameologists or even DanDwiki and see what the general consensus is.

kanachi
2012-07-04, 10:13 AM
It is possible that our own homebrew is acceptable to us simply because the community has a certain ideal for what is balanced, even if it might be biased. If we wanted to be certain, we could see about spreading the classes to other sites like Brilliant Gameologists or even DanDwiki and see what the general consensus is.

If you take one or two classes out of one forum and place them in to another you may get scewed results. It would probably be easier to invite people from other forums to come and view a thread like this and review the classes therein enmass.

I've got in my head an idea of a "day of homebrew from [insert forum here]" where that person reviews all the homebrew on the first page of that forum and gives their thoughts as to the overall quality. It would make for an intresting cross forum review (and potential flash point).

wayfare
2012-07-04, 10:25 AM
It is possible that our own homebrew is acceptable to us simply because the community has a certain ideal for what is balanced, even if it might be biased. If we wanted to be certain, we could see about spreading the classes to other sites like Brilliant Gameologists or even DanDwiki and see what the general consensus is.

I don't think the community on GiantItp is that unified to have that kind of consensus. We're actually a pretty diverse bunch of brewers, with some varied interests and goals. For example, the activity i see on these boards tends to revolve around these concepts (in order of frequency):

1) Fixes (but this is true almost everywhere).

2) Themed classes -- as in, i want to make a Belmont from Castlevania, so I am going to make that a class. This is hugely popular on the boards, but is also hugely diverse. You have folks making classes based on videogames, manga, fiction, and even literature.

3) Hybrids -- classes that mix two or more classes to create a desired effect. Things like an auto tashalatora monk are included here, but may also be considered fixes.

4) Concept Classes -- classes that are mostly unique and display completely new features rather than agglomerating class features from previous classes. These classes may end up being very similar to hybrids or existing classes in play style, but use new class features to create that style.

5) Content Development -- a few folks are working on complete revisions that stretch and skew the standard d20 system for 3.5. These guys are more interested in new mechanics, and then create new classes to match these mechanics.
This sort of work begins in the fixes category, but ends up here when the brewer gets so darn frustrated with the existing system that she starts tearing pages out of the book and scribbling out solutions while cackling madly.

Waker
2012-07-04, 10:34 AM
I am not of the opinion that we are a unified whole either. My comment was mostly in response to kanachi's


The same could be said of any community of course, even ours. It could be argued that our builds here are only balanced against each other and our group think perceptions of the wider system.

Getting the opinions from other communities is simplified with Morph's consolidating the various homebrew classes. Posting a link or inviting other people is all that is required.

kanachi
2012-07-04, 10:55 AM
I am not of the opinion that we are a unified whole either. My comment was mostly in response to kanachi's

Nore am I, I was just playing devil’s advocate within my own post.

tarkisflux
2012-07-04, 11:23 AM
In the meantime, allow me to tell you all a story of my exploits away from GitP while I was having troubles with the site...

If you ever find yourself stuck without GitP access again, you could try the same at the other wiki, www.dnd-wiki.org. I'd be pretty interested to know if you see a difference between the two. And you might even run into some of your own work there (that Havvy transferred over :-).

T.G. Oskar
2012-07-04, 11:52 AM
If you ever find yourself stuck without GitP access again, you could try the same at the other wiki, www.dnd-wiki.org. I'd be pretty interested to know if you see a difference between the two. And you might even run into some of your own work there (that Havvy transferred over :-).

Wholeheartedly agree with the idea. I rarely do promotion (whether its my stuff or that of others), but I feel it's important in this case as the regulations in the good Wiki are tighter than on the other one.

Morph Bark
2012-07-04, 03:57 PM
It is possible that our own homebrew is acceptable to us simply because the community has a certain ideal for what is balanced, even if it might be biased. If we wanted to be certain, we could see about spreading the classes to other sites like Brilliant Gameologists or even DanDwiki and see what the general consensus is.

I don't think the community on GiantItp is that unified to have that kind of consensus. We're actually a pretty diverse bunch of brewers, with some varied interests and goals. For example, the activity i see on these boards tends to revolve around these concepts (in order of frequency):

*snip*

I kinda have to agree with Waker here. While we have a diverse bunch of brewers, that doesn't have to mean we don't share similar ideas on what is balanced. Sure, we often disagree on some details, but that leads to changes, conflict, variety, an evolution of homebrew if you will, with the best part being that the atmosphere here isn't a hostile one, even if the critique may sometimes sound harsh, especially if your balance point seems to be way off while you're thinking it's not, but it's not as bad as in some places and nearly always meant well for constructive criticism. I remember that the gleemax forums and some other places, including dandwiki, weren't all that friendly sometimes.

Dandwiki's intended balance point seems to be Tier 4, or wants to be, but often undershoots it and becomes Tier 5, especially with how many classes have a lot of dead levels. Other classes instead end up as Tier 1s and some Tier 2s due to emulating the wizard or cleric in some way, but with different (read: actual) class features. One of Dandwiki's users' common mistakes is that it seems they largely think the official classes are all balanced to one another, while they aren't (even if the original intention might have been to make them balanced that way).

In fact, in my searches all across Dandwiki, I never found even ONE Tier 3 class. Not a single one. Not more than one either.


Zero.

I also found just a handful of classes that were full-list casters like the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage, no Tome of Battle classes at all (but one Monk variant who used known/readied "techniques" and "stances" up to level 5) and only three real invokers. The rest was made up of Fighter variants, Monk wannabes, buffed Codzillas and Gods and apprentices of the Lightning Warrior (which, frankly, sometimes wasn't even the greatest offender it seems).


If you ever find yourself stuck without GitP access again, you could try the same at the other wiki, www.dnd-wiki.org. I'd be pretty interested to know if you see a difference between the two. And you might even run into some of your own work there (that Havvy transferred over :-).

Oh, I've certainly thought of it and it is a great idea, so I'll make note of it and do so.

EDIT: Wait, HOW DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT? I feel stalked.

The Homebrew Tier Compendium will most likely mainly hold classes posted on GitP, but I will not entirely neglect other boards, especially since I know the minmaxboards have a lot of awesome stuff in them, the WotC forums has some gems lost to time, ENWorld has a scala of delicious classes lurking about despite apparently the 4E parts there being much more active than the 3.5 ones these days (I don't go there often) and if I remember to, Fax's Competitor forums as well. Oh, and a certain someone's ToB forum stuff thingy. I can see you.


Anyway, I'm glad to see more people joining into the discussions as they rise and fall in this thread. I certainly like to see these kinds of things happening, as they seem to not happen that often here or otherwise mostly outside the Homebrew forums, where they get a different audience. :smallsmile:

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-04, 05:10 PM
You could still tier Malefactor - they're done and functional!

DracoDei
2012-07-04, 06:59 PM
In the end, I went, I saw, I Tiered. These are the ones out of the whole pile that seem like they might at least have something good going for them.
Autoplate Pilot (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Autoplate_Pilot_(DnD_Class)) (not sure where to put this; it’s been used once in a campaign of mine, but that eventually went on an acid trip, so the class wasn’t recognizable anymore)
Barkeeper (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Barkeeper_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 5)
Battle Shinigami (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_Shinigami_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4-5?)
Deviant (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Deviant_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 2)
Jester (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Jester_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4, low-ish, can be strangely tanky)
Gate Knight (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Gate_Knight_(DnD_Class)) (it looks fair, but it heavily depends on its sacrifices, which I haven’t fully read yet)
Hexagunner (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hexagunner_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4-5, this class is rated 20 by several people on its discussion page, but until it gets some of its later ally-buffing abilities it is very weak, this is mainly because Steady Aim is its main feature and requires a round of prep time, which nerfs itself incredibly)
Kido Shinigami (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Kido_Shinigami_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4)
Mortician (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mortician_(3.5e_Class)) (hard to Tier, mostly Tier 5, but it has minionmancy 3 levels before Leadership happens, it’s like a lesser necromancer except it gets Animate Dead incredibly early)
Paladin, Kantian (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Kantian_Paladin_(3.5e_Class)) (High Tier 3, one of the best classes on the site, was used in one of my campaigns before)
Red Mage (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Red_Mage_(3.5e_Class)) (pretty nicely put together, I’d put it at Tier 4; doublecast is hella strong, but otherwise it’s like a lesser warmage, so if not for doublecast and the special abilities, it would’ve been Tier 5)
Sandbender (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sandbender_(3.5e_Class)) (dunno, haven’t read all its techniques yet, but it should be noted it gets 30 techniques at level 20 and only has 31 possible ones to choose, so most of them will end up a lot the same)
Sandbinder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sandbinder_(DnD_Class)) (Tier 4 low in normal conditions, Tier 6 in sandless areas, depends heavily on if there’s a distinction made between sand and dirt)
Shinigami (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shinigami_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4-5?, could be the same creator as the Battle Shinigami due to tons of similarities in mechanics, but I don’t know which one is his latest version, as the Battle Shinigami is newer, but the Shinigami has been revised more recently it seems, found the creators page, the Shinigami is meant to be replaced by the Battle Shinigami and Kido Shinigami)
Thief-Acrobat (Tier 4, some nifty abilities, but nothing really special)
Threat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Threat_(3.5e_Class)) (Tier 4-5?, kinda reminds me of the barbarian, but most abilities are actually nicer, though the barbarian can get pounce, rage variants and other ACFs that make it better)
(Tier 2 with the fetch, I’d say, but it’s way too easy to screw over, making it unplayable)
[url=http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weeper_(3.5e_Class)]Weeper (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Time_Bender_(3.5e_Class)Time Bender[/url) (Tier 4)
[/SPOILER]
You have two malformed forum codes towards the end here.

Oh, and a certain someone's ToB forum stuff thingy. I can see you.
Link Please? I feel the need to spread Falling Anvil around a bit.

Derjuin
2012-07-04, 10:02 PM
If anyone has the time, I'd like the base classes listed under "Current Projects" in my extended homebrew signature (linked below) tiered, please :smallsmile:. Just a note, the Zodiac entry is a tad long (1.5 posts).

T.G. Oskar
2012-07-04, 10:22 PM
If anyone has the time, I'd like the base classes listed under "Current Projects" in my extended homebrew signature (linked below) tiered, please :smallsmile:. Just a note, the Zodiac entry is a tad long (1.5 posts).

Not as long. Believe me. The Retooled Monk has three posts worth of info. That's twice as much as yours. And, even then, it *still* required color-coding and another post explaining the creation process to make it work. I still feel proud about it, though, because of the thousands of combinations (YMMV on whether a random combination is completely worthwhile, but I believe each choice has its own worth).

JeminiZero
2012-07-05, 09:19 AM
If anyone has the time, I'd like the base classes listed under "Current Projects" in my extended homebrew signature (linked below) tiered, please :smallsmile:. Just a note, the Zodiac entry is a tad long (1.5 posts).


Not as long. Believe me. The Retooled Monk has three posts worth of info. That's twice as much as yours. And, even then, it *still* required color-coding and another post explaining the creation process to make it work.

Yeah, similarly, Trissociate sucks up 18 posts, and even then I regret not reserving more, since I might be running out of space soon... :smalltongue:


I still feel proud about it, though, because of the thousands of combinations (YMMV on whether a random combination is completely worthwhile, but I believe each choice has its own worth).

I feel you on this one :smallbiggrin:

DracoDei
2012-07-05, 01:54 PM
Not as long. Believe me. The Retooled Monk has three posts worth of info. That's twice as much as yours. And, even then, it *still* required color-coding and another post explaining the creation process to make it work. I still feel proud about it, though, because of the thousands of combinations (YMMV on whether a random combination is completely worthwhile, but I believe each choice has its own worth).


Yeah, similarly, Trissociate sucks up 18 posts, and even then I regret not reserving more, since I might be running out of space soon... :smalltongue:

Well, this makes ME feel better about the Grace-Gift. I barely need 3 posts so far (although I did reserve a bunch more, and try to spread everything out).

Eldan
2012-07-05, 02:14 PM
My Arcane Magic takes up three posts so far, that said, it has the potential to grow rather massively, what with the ideas for feats, prestige classes, more spells and another base class I have.

tarkisflux
2012-07-05, 03:22 PM
Oh, I've certainly thought of it and it is a great idea, so I'll make note of it and do so.

EDIT: Wait, HOW DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT? I feel stalked.

I'm a bureaucrat (super admin) over there, and responsible for a bunch of stuff. I spend more time there than here, and not much happens there that I don't at least notice. Havvy's transfer thing and the authors he worked with stood out a bit. It seemed like a nice gesture and a good way to get a more permanent and easily searchable home for some good material in other places.

Full disclosure though - after a recent discussion here about the other wiki, and the ensuing discussion on our end, I have an interest in seeing if there's a noticeable difference between wikis from an outside perspective. Hence the 'suggestion' :smallwink:


Yeah, similarly, Trissociate sucks up 18 posts, and even then I regret not reserving more, since I might be running out of space soon... :smalltongue:

It's too bad my big stuff isn't in classes. I want to throw down the material volume gauntlet too, but it's not relevant to the thread :smallfrown:

Eldan
2012-07-05, 03:38 PM
Material Volume?

My little baby, the Etherworlds setting 2.0 is currently around 40 pages in word. And far from complete.

wayfare
2012-07-05, 04:33 PM
I've been waiting for something like this!

Could you take a look at my Fighter (not really done, but still):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242689

and the Harbinger, a sort of warrior diviner:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244491

Not one tier 3 class, Morph? -- not even the ones like warmage? Wow, that says a lot about what brewers think the balance point is.

Also, poking you to take a look at the above. Fighter insight is especially appreciated, as it is one of the core classes in a book I am working on.

Many thanks!

Pyromancer999
2012-07-05, 08:51 PM
Not one tier 3 class, Morph? -- not even the ones like warmage? Wow, that says a lot about what brewers think the balance point is.


I believe Morph said that there wasn't one tier 3 class on Dandwiki, not in general. I've seen the site myself, and I tend to agree, although there might be one, maybe two tier 3 classes on the site. There is a pretty extreme contrast between power levels, when you look at it.

wayfare
2012-07-05, 09:12 PM
I believe Morph said that there wasn't one tier 3 class on Dandwiki, not in general. I've seen the site myself, and I tend to agree, although there might be one, maybe two tier 3 classes on the site. There is a pretty extreme contrast between power levels, when you look at it.

Oh, yeah, thats what I was getting at, lol.

I hopped on there and the few classes I browsed seemed to fall into the hybrid type i listed above (a maneuver using assassin that gets SA and rogue type skill access, for example). There were also a few that were really cool and thematic (Blackstone Knight (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Blackstone_Knight_(3.5e_Class))), but tend to sacrifice power for thematic power sets.

Empedocles
2012-07-05, 09:48 PM
Hey Morph Bark, poking you briefly about the tier you put my chosen warrior in again. :smalltongue:

Morph Bark
2012-07-06, 06:29 AM
You could still tier Malefactor - they're done and functional!

I just did! What do you think about that, huh?! I also Tiered your Witch Doctor! HA! You can't control me! You can't tell me what to do!

...wait.

On another note on the Witch Doctor, should it have the Historical Tag for Inspiration? I wasn't entirely sure on that. Also, with the Juju Brews it was a little vague to me whether a target would be affected if they didn't drink it and just had it smashes at their feet or something like that. Though it did say the Witch Doctor himself could be affected if doing so with a melee touch attack, so there's that I suppose.

It's also currently Borderline Tier 3-4, though I think it could be Tier 3 pretty easily. Add some Improved Mojo Brews, I say! Then I'll take another look at it, might be I change my mind. It was a bit of a tough decision on whether to Tier it 3 or Borderline, so I went with my rule of "when in doubt, it's a no", which basically here comes down to "when in doubt, it's the lower Tier".


Material Volume?

My little baby, the Etherworlds setting 2.0 is currently around 40 pages in word. And far from complete.

OH ARE WE GOING TO COMPARE E-PEENS NOW, U GAISE

That makes me sad because I used to have like a page per city, location, organization, several for magic rules, several for plane interactions, several per major NPC and a bunch of really cool maps for my very first setting that I posted on a ProBoards forum I was a member at at the time.

Then the forum got deleted. ;_;


Not one tier 3 class, Morph? -- not even the ones like warmage? Wow, that says a lot about what brewers think the balance point is.

Do you mean to refer to me by saying "brewers" or to the brewers who post on Dandwiki? I'm trying to gauge your tone here, but I'm getting the feel of negativity, so I'd rather ask instead of drawing hasty conclusions.

I obviously didn't look at all the classes on Dandwiki (I said I didn't find any Tier 3s, doesn't mean there aren't any!). :smalltongue: I mean, there are around 800 of them there. I did look at at least 50 individual ones in detail and glanced over many more and they were either very low-Tier or very high-Tier. I looked at all the ones that had a rating (as shown in the list of Homebrew 3.5 classes) as well as a bunch of classes with interesting names in the huge dump below the list that had yet to be listed, trying to grab a hold of something good, because I didn't have the time and the patience to go through them all. After all, one can only stand so much crap even while there's some good stuff in there and I figured GitP would be working alright for me in a few days again anyways.


You have two malformed forum codes towards the end here.

Link Please? I feel the need to spread Falling Anvil around a bit.

I read you the first time, no need to repost.

And I'm afraid in this particular case it concerns a closed project forum, so it wouldn't be open to other disciplines.


Hey Morph Bark, poking you briefly about the tier you put my chosen warrior in again. :smalltongue:

Right. Let me go grab some lunch and then get back here to write you a summary and ponder some on the class.

EDIT: Right, let's get onto it.

Let me split it up into parts under its major features: Ocarina songs, Masks, Weapons and Goddess Spells.

The Ocarina Songs have been done very well, though the Charm song comes too early for an at-will ability and basing the Will save off the Perform check result is iffy, since skill checks are incredibly easy to get high (rings of +30 to a skill are pretty cheap, for example), while saves are very hard to get high without a ton of multiclassing, which monsters will likely not do, so you could start making everyone your friend from level 3 onwards unless they are immune to enchantments, charm effects or mind-affecting effects in general (undead, constructs, fey, plants, oozes). All the rest will want to high-five you, possibly including the BBEG if he wasn't wearing his Third Eye Something at that moment. Besides, it's kind of weird the Charm song save DC features off the skill check result, while all the other Songs have level-based DCs.

Song of Warping and Song of the Sun are listed under those names on the table, while the other songs are listed on the table as Ocarina ([song name]), which is a little inconsistent. Song of the Sun also says it "essentially switches the AM and PM", but doesn't affect the time and only on a small town area or area of similar size. Perhaps it would be easier to say it creates a darkness or light effect on an area one mile around the location you play the song at, with the effect counting as a 9th-level spell for purposes of dispelling and such? This would also take care of any confusion over the AM-PM thing, since a lot of areas in the world don't use that.

The other songs are very nice, especially the Song of Healing. Well done.

The Masks are a nice feature and it was smart of you to not include the masks that were only in Majora's Mask to get other masks or as a gimmick of some sort (though I think you missed a few, but I don't know all the masks off the top of my head). The bonuses the Chosen Warrior gets from the Masks are all pretty low and they never improve, making them feel more like "fluff additions", stuff that is just there because it was in one of the games. Doubling the skills check and ability score bonuses would be a good start. Some of the Masks also come rather late for what abilities they grant, except of course for the Fierce Deity Mask (which has no range listed for its energy blasts, by the way). The duration limitation makes them even worse, though I do agree the Fierce Deity should have one.

Blade of the Chosen one is nice, though the text and table disagree over when the bonuses are gained exactly. It also advances a little strangely, with the difference in gain between the bonus improvements being 3, 4, 4, 2 and 3 levels respectively (according to the text).

Whirlwind Attack might be better at level 8 if you said: "while using Whirlwind Attack his reach increases by 5 ft and if he uses a reach weapon he also threatens and attacks those adjacent to him while using Whirlwind Attack. If he uses Whirlwind Attack with his Blade of the Chosen, his reach increases by 10 ft during Whirlwind Attack."

Things that are important with the Weapons he gains in general: how does he gain them? Are they given to him or can he magically summon them from that level onwards? What happens if he loses them? This is all very vague, yet very important. Also, you call it the Clawshot in the text, but the Hookshot in the table. Also, the Bombs get kind of weak near the later levels (though Bombchus are awesome). The Claw/Hookshot is also rather useless as a weapon for its pitiful damage, but great for movement and utility, though you make no mention of limitations of surfaces it can stick to (which some DMs would restrict severely at some point and those familiar with the source material would likely do so from the start). Also, you make no mention of whether it is held in the hand or something else, which someone not familiar with Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess wouldn't know.

At this point, he is competent in melee due to his full BAB, hit points and buffed sword and shield, though a problem is that sword-and-board is very suboptimal in DnD. I realize he can pick a weapon that isn't one-handed, or even something other than a sword, but then he ditches his Shield, basically neglecting a class feature that is the equivalent of throwing away up to 25000 gp. He also gets Knockback Strike and Finishing Move, which are situational things and as such don't factor in much (though Finishing Move mimics the source material very well, though on the other hand I'm wondering why you included the Double Clawshot and these maneuvers, but nothing else from Twilight Princess). He mostly seems like Tier 5, no? The Ocarina Songs help him quite a bit in this regard though and his Masks give him a very small amount of utility in combination with the songs. Add the Goddess Spells to that (which are nifty, but they are only three spells in the end) and you basically got a class that could have been Tier 3 if it were actually good with at least half of those things.

To summarize:
- The Masks are next to useless.
- The Goddess Spells are nice, but there are too little of them to really add much.
- The Bombs are useless at mid and high levels.
- The Claw/Hookshot is situationally useful for utility and movement and useless for damage.
- The Sword and Shield are nice, but ultimately class abilities that amount to "I have a weapon", which the Soulknife also has.
- The Weapon Focus and other feats granted are a nice little bonus, but they're amongst the worst feats out there, so ultimately add next to nothing.
- The three maneuvers are highly situational.
- The Ocarina songs are nice for healing and utility, but ultimately situational.

Honestly, I want to congratulate you with upgrading the Hero of Time and improving upon it and making a lot of class features and doing alright at it, but in the end the execution is too much of a grab bag of stuff with each part not being strong enough to support the other parts, making it end up like the Monk. In fact, if it weren't for all the tiny bits of utility it has (limited teleportation, at-will healing, movement) and that it can do better in melee, I'd now feel like shoving it into Tier 5 territory, just like I did earlier with my Botanimorphist that I actually didn't want in there.

My suggestions to improve it would be to split apart the grab bag-ness of it a bit and improve upon the parts that had little going for them. For one, you could turn it into a martial adept to expand upon the three limited "maneuvers" it currently has. Another idea would be to expand upon the Masks and the Songs. I think you perhaps should split those up, so that the Chosen Warrior needs to choose a kind of "path" for himself and take either the Masks or the Songs, but not both. Then you can add more Songs and Masks as well, perhaps even make a new Mask based on Wolf Link from Twilight Princess? Under Songs you could also put things from other, newer games as well, if they are sufficiently different enough. Then you could grant the Chosen Warrior one of his "path" abilities every other level, so ending up with ten Songs or ten Masks.

If you don't want maneuvers in the class (which your EHS summary of it suggests), check out the Channeler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13354408). You could perhaps do it like so that you have a Path of Songs, a Path of Masks, a Path of Items and a Path of... I dunno, something else (Combat? with the TP maneuvers). Then there's versatility in the class since everyone can make different combinations of path specializations, but they keep it so that you get a bit of all the different abilities Link has had in his various incarnations. Then you can look at what stays consistent throughout the incarnations (a special sword, the Triforce of Courage and a spirit guide of sorts) and make that a part of the main class features that everyone gets no matter their path choices.

There are more suggestions, but it already begins to sound to me like I want to dictate everything, which I don't want to, because that just wouldn't be fun, since you are the class creator in the end. Anyway, yeah, here's my evaluation. In hindsight, might sound a little harsh, but I merely try to be honest, and I can get a little brutal with that.

wayfare
2012-07-06, 08:15 AM
Do you mean to refer to me by saying "brewers" or to the brewers who post on Dandwiki? I'm trying to gauge your tone here, but I'm getting the feel of negativity, so I'd rather ask instead of drawing hasty conclusions.

I obviously didn't look at all the classes on Dandwiki (I said I didn't find any Tier 3s, doesn't mean there aren't any!). :smalltongue: I mean, there are around 800 of them there. I did look at at least 50 individual ones in detail and glanced over many more and they were either very low-Tier or very high-Tier. I looked at all the ones that had a rating (as shown in the list of Homebrew 3.5 classes) as well as a bunch of classes with interesting names in the huge dump below the list that had yet to be listed, trying to grab a hold of something good, because I didn't have the time and the patience to go through them all. After all, one can only stand so much crap even while there's some good stuff in there and I figured GitP would be working alright for me in a few days again anyways.


No snark intended --i am truly snarkless, having thrown my last at an ape alien in 2003 (really me, a Halflife pun, did you have to do that). I was referring to the community over there, and from what I've seen, you are right: there are a ton of hybrid classes that sort of ram two ideas together and try to make it work, and there are some pretty interesting ideas that would be really fun to play if optimization wasn't an issue.

The stuff i saw was largely t4 or 5, with a few classes that were high T3 but thematically not so sound. There was a maneuver assassin, for example, that was full ba, full sa, full skill list rogue which would be quite fun and powerful, but didn't feel very assassin-y to me.

kanachi
2012-07-06, 08:29 AM
Another big thing to remember is that a lot of people make classes with no intention of multi classing, min maxing or external splat booking, they simply intend to play the clas as posted from level 1 – 20. As a result the class can be balanced when looked at in isolation OR when considered in the context of a custom campaign. However, once the class is posted online people forget that outsiders do not restrict themselves in the same way when consulting the class and if they chuck in the big wide world the wheels soon fall off...

Does this make it a bad class? Not really… if any homebrew works and is balanced within your own game and ultimately makes things more awesome (rule of cool style) its fine.

Does it make it a bad class to post on a forum without stating the above proviso? most certainly.

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-06, 09:14 AM
Cool! I wasn't expecting the [Horror] tag on the Witch Doctor, but I suppose that Inside-Out Flask is a doozy.

Question - why the [Tank] tag on the Malefactor, given their Rogue-like chassis?

DracoDei
2012-07-06, 11:20 AM
I read you the first time, no need to repost.
Completely accidental I assure you.
EDIT: Duplicate post deleted.


And I'm afraid in this particular case it concerns a closed project forum, so it wouldn't be open to other disciplines.
Oh, ok. :smallsmile:

Morph Bark
2012-07-06, 04:21 PM
Cool! I wasn't expecting the [Horror] tag on the Witch Doctor, but I suppose that Inside-Out Flask is a doozy.

Question - why the [Tank] tag on the Malefactor, given their Rogue-like chassis?

The Horror tag seemed appropriate, given some of the abilities and general fluff and theme of the class. By the way, you didn't answer a question I had earlier: should I give it the Historical tag for Inspiration?

I wasn't sure about the Tank tag for the Malefactor, actually, but they had several Maledictions and Auras that would be very fitten on a Tank, like enemies taking damage if they attacked someone other than the Malefactor, or not being able to leave the area 30 ft around the Malefactor. Since they aren't Con-based and only have a d8 Hit Die their hp won't be as high as that of, say, a Limit Knight or Shield by far, but Con can easily be taken as a secondary ability score with Dex made the tertiary one and focusing on Maledictions and Auras like those two and others that do similar things or penalize attack rolls and the like. It wouldn't be their primary role, nor their intended one, but I could see a Malefactor being a decent Tank. If you'd search the Tier list for Tank classes, you'd currently find only six classes with that tag. That's currently on par with Debuffers and just above Crafters with five, putting that role at the one least filled. (Well, excluding Trapmonkey and Moneymaker, but the former is more of a half-role and the latter isn't much of a party role at all.)

I have also put the Malefactor on the Tier list that isn't for the Fix classes, because while intended to be a Hexblade Fix originally, it is just so wildly different from the original Hexblade that it is no longer recognizable. However, because of this original intention, I did give it the Fix tag to show so.

The-Mage-King
2012-07-06, 04:49 PM
So, uh, how 'bout that Barrier Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177861)'s tier? :smalltongue:

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-06, 05:10 PM
I probably wouldn't give it the [Historical] tag if I were you; it was intended to emulate the IDEA of witch doctors, and not any kind of facts or truths about witch doctors or voodoo (two ideas that I should note are actually wholly separate).

wayfare
2012-07-06, 05:17 PM
So, uh, how 'bout that Barrier Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177861)'s tier? :smalltongue:


Mage King, this isnt a tier comment, but I love the idea of a battlefield control specialist and think that you did a good job making a fun, thematic class! Have you ever used this class in a campaign -- i'd live to hear how it turned out. I imagine that it has a steeper learning curve than a standard mage or even the specialust mage types like the dread necromancer or beguiler.

The-Mage-King
2012-07-06, 11:24 PM
Mage King, this isnt a tier comment, but I love the idea of a battlefield control specialist and think that you did a good job making a fun, thematic class!

Heh. Thanks.



Have you ever used this class in a campaign -- i'd live to hear how it turned out. I imagine that it has a steeper learning curve than a standard mage or even the specialust mage types like the dread necromancer or beguiler.

Sadly, no, not yet.

Serafina
2012-07-07, 03:56 AM
It's not finished yet, but any rough estimate for the Tier of the Magical Girl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218981)?

Rough list of class features:
- Costume points that grant various abilities, notably bonus weapon damage (up to 18, bonus elemental damage (up to 6D8). bonus speed (up to 60 ft), flight and Charisma (main-stat) to AC. Can't have all at once, but switch between them daily.
- Mettle and Constitution to AC
- Medium BAB, good Will&Reflex saves, 4 skillpoints/level, social skill list.
- Illuminations - supernatural effects that can be used all day, but must be resource-managed during an encounter. Notable effects: touch-attack ranged attacks with good damage. Melee attacks that prevent attacking or nauseate for several rounds. Auras that provide Mettle&Evasion, healing on melee-attacks or better saves.

Temotei
2012-07-07, 01:23 PM
*Magical Girl stuff*

Pekkala?

One of my favorite classes is the sagittarius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117933). It'd be cool to see it on this list.

Tavar
2012-07-07, 02:17 PM
I'd be interested in any of your thoughts on the following classes(none are mine, but I've running a game with them). Order is the ones I think are most interesting/unique/troublesome first.


Grace-Gift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247637), by DracoDei (I have no idea what this is :smalleek:)
Binder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234102)(not really related to the official class of the same name: it's a summoner, largely unique mechanics), by Milo v3
Spellsage (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=853.0), by DonQuixote(unique mechanic)
Harrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148), by Lord_Gareth
Shield Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192533), by mhvaughan (ToB based)
Changeling Warshaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239838), by Admiral Squish

Vauron
2012-07-07, 02:33 PM
Binder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234102)(not really related to the official class of the same name: it's a summoner, largely unique mechanics), by Milo v3

While I really like the concept, I don't see any point in trying to give it a Tier when it is only playable up to level 5. A good chunk of its class features revolve around binding creatures to things, but only a handful of the myriad possible options have been written up.

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-07, 08:20 PM
I'd be interested in any of your thoughts on the following classes(none are mine, but I've running a game with them). Order is the ones I think are most interesting/unique/troublesome first.


Grace-Gift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247637), by DracoDei (I have no idea what this is :smalleek:)
Binder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234102)(not really related to the official class of the same name: it's a summoner, largely unique mechanics), by Milo v3
Spellsage (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=853.0), by DonQuixote(unique mechanic)
Harrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148), by Lord_Gareth
Shield Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192533), by mhvaughan (ToB based)
Changeling Warshaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239838), by Admiral Squish


BE WARNED - The Harrowed is still afflicted with large and pervasive flaws, and is less functional than it looks.

Tavar
2012-07-07, 10:26 PM
Regarding the binder, it's playable past that: did you check the links in the first post?


As for the Harrowed, yeah, we've seen a bit of that. Without one of the parties abilities to give massive bonus to will saves, it seems a bit temperamental, in the Frenzied Berserker way.

Vauron
2012-07-07, 11:38 PM
Regarding the binder, it's playable past that: did you check the links in the first post?


I admit that it is technically playable, but from the sound of things it is you that hasn't looked at the other links. Do Apparatus, Aura, Soul, or Constructive Bindings look complete enough to bother with? I stated level 5 as that is the level where you first get an ability that is so incomplete it might as well not be there at all. The Deeds may be complete, but you can't say the same for the lion's share of the binder's class features. Which is a pity, as I do love the concept.

Morph Bark
2012-07-08, 05:49 AM
Here are some more classes I've been Tiering this past week. Other classes to follow, as I've got a list of classes I'm going to Tier soon. Please note that these aren't yet added into the Tier lists, as I'd like to go over some minor details still to make sure some of them might not be a different, likely higher Tier. Feel free to comment on these judgements.


Tier 1
Fightificer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12108951&postcount=33); because it's basically a Martial Adept version of the Artificer, though also still very much a Fighter.

Tier 2
Tendersoul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11283217); pretty good spell list, can atone Paladins and the like from early on, making Evil acts hardly a problem (though the Tendersoul themselves would still need to be LG). At-will Sanctuary with a greater DC practically allows for bypassing of encounters entirely. It's on the low end of Tier 2, but still.

High Tier 3
Fighter Incarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153656); has some really great stuff, some really strong stuff too, and a LOT of options! Also has a great capstone.
Xenoalchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205119); you can basically upgrade everyone in the party by quite a bit with a little bit of work and time. Nothing really overpowered or broken, but certainly strong. Standard class abilities are also decent.

Tier 3
Connoisseur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232699); curiously enough, this one Gestalted with Circle of Life's Ninja would perfectly embody one of my old long-standing characters and do so perfectly. The class itself isn't as powerful as the Xenoalchemist for the obvious reason that it cannot add its powers to other people.
Olympian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13322347&postcount=11); wasn't sure at first, but the Olympian Talents really did it here. Nice, flavourful and fitting.
Sagittarius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117933); Concurrence is a bit like the Factotum's Arcane Dilettante ability, but more versatile, yet less powerful. Elusive Target is a nice spin on Evasion/Mettle. The still clearly inherent Ranger-ness, bonus feats, luck rerolls and Marksman Techniques clearly put this in Tier 3 territory.
Shield Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192533); very nice and very balanced, a great tank.
Stoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13489003); it's prettymuch a binder that smokes.
Warrior-Poet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235823); sort of a single-classed Bardblade, but more fitting around the concept in a different, unique execution.

Borderline Tier 3-4
Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245327); a 3.P version Fix that gains totems. I still want to look at the Pathfinder Barbarian and see how different it is from that, since I heard the PF Barbarian also gains totems. Judging by the Pathfinder Tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13392.0), this may be an increase in Tier though, so I'm including it for now.
Barrier Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177861); Dispeller’s Haze doesn’t specify if it works or doesn’t with non-Barrier Mage spells, which could make it a great dip for other casters. Knowledge (strategy and tactics) doesn’t exist and generally falls under Knowledge (history) due to including facts on wars. The intention here was in keeping from it having any damaging spells even if they are primarily control spells, such as Wall of Fire/Ice and Black Tentacles, though Web isn’t included either. On the other hand, due to its limited skill list and low skill points (though with Int synergy), it cannot function as a skill monkey. Getting damaging control spells or more skill points and class skills and a class feature or two fit for a skillmonkey would make this a real Tier 3 class.

Tier 4
Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244599); Fighter Fix #183.
Herioc Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226530); Fighter Fix #407.
Runner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227714); much better than I had expected it from the name and a quick glance-over. I like its moves.

Tier 5
Ascetic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225480); this... I'm not sure what to make of this. It's like a Psychic Warrior, but... less so? It feels very much like a Fix, if you think Tier 4 should be the balance point.

Tier 6
Tier 6 is getting sad. It feels empty inside.

Variable Tier
Stylist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11180420); most of the Styles are Tier 4, which combined make a decent Tier 3 or at least a Borderline Tier 3-4 class, but some of the Styles bring it up to Tier 2. Beastly and Cosplay in particular.



There are also some other things I am thinking of adding, such as either sections or links to short "essays" that describe and explain the Tiers further, why homebrew isn't bad, and so on. I know T.G. Oskar wrote one pretty recently (albeit unintentionally, as it was meant to be short).

I may be unable to Tier for the next two or three days. If I am gone for longer, it means my computer unfiguratively exploded.

In the meantime, I'm thinking of making some sort of special feature a part of this whole process, in a manner like I did with Dandwiki last Wednesday. I'm currently thinking for the next thing I'd like to look at a single homebrewer's work and pick the whole apart, try to analyze their style a bit. What do all of ye think of that? Any volunteers? Nominees*?


*If you nominate someone, please notify them of this, because it's possible they don't like to be a part of this in such a way.

Pyromancer999
2012-07-08, 08:56 AM
In the meantime, I'm thinking of making some sort of special feature a part of this whole process, in a manner like I did with Dandwiki last Wednesday. I'm currently thinking for the next thing I'd like to look at a single homebrewer's work and pick the whole apart, try to analyze their style a bit. What do all of ye think of that? Any volunteers? Nominees*?


*If you nominate someone, please notify them of this, because it's possible they don't like to be a part of this in such a way.

I'll volunteer. Seems interesting.

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-08, 10:10 AM
I volunteer - I'm damn curious.

DracoDei
2012-07-08, 10:14 AM
I'd be interested in any of your thoughts on the following classes(none are mine, but I've running a game with them). Order is the ones I think are most interesting/unique/troublesome first.


Grace-Gift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247637), by DracoDei (I have no idea what this is :smalleek:)

No idea of the tier? Me neither (well, I am pretty sure it is 2-4, but that isn't saying much).
No idea of the overall functions and (default) feel of the class? I can tell you that... which makes me think it isn't what you meant(EDIT for clarity:so I shall not answer here unless directly asked). I did do a preliminary submission of it to this thread(inside a spoiler). "Preliminary" and "inside a spoiler" because it is waiting on the play-test data we are gathering.

In the meantime, I'm thinking of making some sort of special feature a part of this whole process, in a manner like I did with Dandwiki last Wednesday. I'm currently thinking for the next thing I'd like to look at a single homebrewer's work and pick the whole apart, try to analyze their style a bit. What do all of ye think of that? Any volunteers? Nominees*?
Consider me a volunteer, although you might have to pick and choose which stuff to look at given I have rather a lot of stuff. Then again, that might have been your default plan anyway.

I would also nominate Vorpal Tribble, despite the fact I have no way of getting in contact with him due to his ban.

Jarian
2012-07-08, 10:17 AM
Any volunteers? Nominees?

I nominate T. G. Oskar.

I'm pretty sure the verdict is going to be "Style: Verbose" though. :smalltongue:

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-08, 12:02 PM
*raises hand* I don't have much, but I'm willing.

Zaydos
2012-07-08, 12:05 PM
I'm willing; I know I need improvement and it would give a nice critique of my style as a whole. Whoever you choose this looks like it'll be interesting.

Edit: Also it's nice to have confirmation that Heroic Warrior was the tier I aimed at. Thank you.

Temotei
2012-07-08, 01:28 PM
I'll volunteer as well.

Kane0
2012-07-08, 05:49 PM
I'll volunteer too if the list isnt already long enough :smallwink:

Morph Bark
2012-07-09, 01:53 PM
Boy, what enthusiasm! :smalltongue:

I already got something thought up for this one. Will do the next ones probably a little differently, at least in choosing which to go with.

In the meantime, I've Tiered the Alchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245132), by Jarian. Nifty abilities and I like the distinction between Elemental Weavers and Constructors. The way the class is set up is very reminiscent of the Warlock, with at-will abilities, taking 10 on UMD and its own version of Imbue Item. The Tandem abilities are nice, but easy to neutralize by an enemy focusing the familiar or construct companion. As such, I shall file it under Tier 4.

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-09, 02:03 PM
Man, I really need to get an Extended Signature made, but I just...every time I go to do it, I'm like, "Screw it, I ain't got the time to hunt down all the crap I've made."

Morph Bark
2012-07-09, 02:38 PM
Earlier today I tried to search your stuff via Google and only found the stuff in your signature, plus this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95824).

Then just now I realized I could also just click your name, go to your profile and check out all the threads you've made. :smalltongue:

mrcarter11
2012-07-09, 06:15 PM
Well, I do have some free time. So for Gareth..


Base Classes

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84158]Scourge[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58810]Harrowed 1.0[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139992]Revised Hexblade[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118467]Harrowed 2.0[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119851]Witch Doctor[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167195]Harrowed 3.0[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166653]Revised Hexblade 2.0[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198321]Witch Doctor 2.0[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148]Harrowed 4.0[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202885]Malefactor[/url

Unfinished[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79907]Warpblade Disciple[/url

Unfinished [url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180367]Warpblade Disciple[/url



Prestige Classes

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58244]Chaos Knight[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56625]Accursed One[url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56621]Pelorian Crusader[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58223]Flick Reaper[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78788]Angel of Death[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92181] Tarot Trickster[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66067]Whirlwind Bastion[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100517]Tarot Trickster[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104607]Spook[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105843]Mannikin Warrior[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116191]Children of the Mausoleum[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155470]Infernomancers[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169722]Nightsinger[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184236]Umbral Celebrant[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209097]Sisters Treacherous[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241380]Voidblade Eliminators[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233385]Knight of the Fractured Prism[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245051]Duke of the Last Light[/url

Unfinished[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170945]Elemental Blasters[/url

Unfinished[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68296]Splinterbow Adept[/url



Monsters

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95824]Sons/Daughters of Silence[/url



Races

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57138]Arcadian Rebel[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60286]True Faerie[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70213]Navarri'Gani[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70126]Faritha'Gani[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70197]Ganritho'Gani[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70162]Sathari'Gani[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88100]Clockwork Men[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129398]Dusk Dancers[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165878]Grinnlings[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184532]Dusk Dancers 2.0[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202752]Dreavarrian Halfling[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240239]Dreavarrian Gnoll[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202575]Dreavarrian Half-Orc[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202472]Dreavarrian Elf[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240815]Dreavarrian Geargrinder[/url



Templates

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74148]Illuriad[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85139]Souless[/url



Feats

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56622]Lightningblade[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100667]Kustom Jobs[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245657]Greater Life Leech[/url



Spells

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70813]Damnation Calls[/url

Artifacts

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79162]My Friends[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97442]Plothook Edition[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166045]Instruments of Wraith[/url



Items

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103447]Ring Blade[/url



Subsystem

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71041]The Paradigm Project[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110157]Rituals[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113145]Paradigm Nexus[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136177]Color Wheel 1.0[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157001]Color Wheel 2.0[/url

[url=www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138705]The Paradigm Project 2.0[/url

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174163]Color Wheel 3.0[/url



Settings

Unfinished[url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105454]Nocturne[/url




Just add the last bracket to everything.

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-09, 06:27 PM
O.O

Thank you! I'll have to eliminate some of that (there's redundancies and dropped projects in there that I don't care to wave about) but that'll save me TONS of time.

I'll link it once I've got it in the extended sig, Morph, and then you can take a look if you like. I'll warn you - there's a sharp divide between some of my early stuff and my more modern work.

Hrm, also looks like I may need to add some stuff from the PrC contest onto there.

mrcarter11
2012-07-09, 06:45 PM
Yeah, I only included the stuff that you started threads for.. I figure that was more then enough. Some of the early stuff also lacks tables. And the only thing I didn't add was the autumn mantle you made, since I was mainly going through for 3.5.. But anyways, yeah your welcome man.

Lix Lorn
2012-07-09, 07:03 PM
In the meantime, I'm thinking of making some sort of special feature a part of this whole process, in a manner like I did with Dandwiki last Wednesday. I'm currently thinking for the next thing I'd like to look at a single homebrewer's work and pick the whole apart, try to analyze their style a bit. What do all of ye think of that? Any volunteers? Nominees*?
Oooh, that sounds interesting. :smalltongue:

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-09, 07:11 PM
There you go Morph - extended siggy in my siggy. Now to kidnap Lix and ride off into the sunset!

Lix Lorn
2012-07-09, 08:11 PM
There you go Morph - extended siggy in my siggy. Now to kidnap Lix and ride off into the sunset!
I have a saddle to make it easy and everything!

tarkisflux
2012-07-09, 10:29 PM
In the meantime, I'm thinking of making some sort of special feature a part of this whole process, in a manner like I did with Dandwiki last Wednesday. I'm currently thinking for the next thing I'd like to look at a single homebrewer's work and pick the whole apart, try to analyze their style a bit. What do all of ye think of that? Any volunteers? Nominees*?

I would also volunteer, but as my big thing is not a class and likely doesn't tier nicely (though it has very severe tier implications for the core classes), it's probably outside the scope of this thread. But if you wanted to do it anyway, I'd be all kinds of grateful. I got a fair number of views here, but only 1 comment :-(.

Jarian
2012-07-10, 01:14 AM
The link to the Warrior-Poet appears to have been fubar'd in the latest edit.

Lappy9001
2012-07-10, 11:49 AM
I would love for my Engineer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114229) to be Tier'd, especially since I've put bunches of work into the project, and heard several different tier estimates.

Morph Bark
2012-07-10, 01:32 PM
Y'know, considering this is the first time I'm doing this, I kinda felt like I should pick someone easy or with a small amount of 'brew, but you know what? Screwcork to that! I'll just be going with the only one nominated not by himself! Who, presumably, has been notified of course, and since more than 48 hours have passed since the nomination I think I can be safe in saying there aren't any objections on his part. Of course, the next times I do this (because I undoubtedly will do this again, at least if people like the below result), I'll simply roll a die for myself to randomly pick someone nominated. For now though, let's get on with it!

*incrediblydeepbreathbecauseholygignitsperhapsIsho uldnothavedoneitinthismannereveryonewillhatemenow; ohcrapohcrapohcrap*

“Lords and ladies! Children of all ages! Angels and fiends and abominable eldritch spawn from beyond time and space!

Today I shall talk to you of a man, but not an ordinary man! This man has walked amongst us for over three full years, disguised like one of us! With his can-do attitude, nigh-Shakespearean vocabulary and a face that hides a brain soaked through with such heretical ideas and a warped perception of reality that if one were exposed to it they could even end up doing such things as loving blasting spells or becoming 150% more complex!

My friends, I speak of none other than the one known as…



The Great OSKAR!*


If you see this man, steel your soul so that you won’t accept any cookies from him. He has garnered so many over the years, he just might lure you in with one, but you will never again escape his grasp! But… why is that exactly? What is it that could lure you in about this man? As a great philosopher once said “a man is not known by his thoughts, but his actions”. What actions, you may ask? In case of this Mr. Oskar fellow, it concerns a matter of the gravest sort, something even few amongst brave souls dare delve into… homebrew. *shudder* Truly, a man who dares stain his hands with such vile materials should be avoided, right? Well then, let us bring forth this man’s works, let the world judge him for what he has done! Let the judgement BEGIN!


First Crimes
At the end of the month of May in the year 2009, the defendant joined the community of The Playground. It was a full two months that he enjoyed the peace his new surroundings before he decided to rile it up! On the 5th of August, 2009, the defendant posted the Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120539)! He dared presume he could do better than the officials of the illustrious Wizards of the Coast and created a class derived from the material they had published in their Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, in doing creating a perfect Master of One as a base class! We have a word for that in this courtroom: HERESY! Such specializing greatness should be reserved for Prestige Classes alone! This man caused the poor Master of Nine to go to a corner and cry, “why couldn’t I have been a base class, too? I never get invited to their parties!” How cruel! And to think that this was merely his first attempt! This shows that either this man has a great talent and propensity for doing these sorts of things or that he had much practice before joining our great community! Not only that, but this defilement of Tome of Battle was furthered with alternative class features (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121939) for classes that never meant to be martial adepts in the first place and an expansive list of feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169491) that would aid those fake martial adepts even further! Let us examine what further heinousness has come from this man--pardon me--the defendant.


Common Crimes
The defendant appears to be methodical in his work. In nearly all instances he has appeared, he has announced his presence aloud, not even making any effort to hide his crimes, rather advocating them, shout aloud to the world! This, along with his habit of--as he calls it--‘retooling’ official classes shows that he clearly takes pride in his work, challenging the conventions of the game that are bound in officiality!

The defendant, Mr. Oskar, presents all of his work with extensive commentary, his classes with
reflections on each single ability. His introductions are wordy and long. He has a love for ‘retooling’, which is taking official classes and remaking them in his own ideal. This drive isn’t even limited to base classes, having even consumed the Mystic Theurge, Bladesinger, Defender of Sealtiel and several divine prestige classes! It further appears that his classes can be divided into groupings that follow different styles, or ‘chassis’ as he calls them, as if he were making a car. This is most evident in the Monk, Ninja and Samurai, who all make use of a ki system for their class abilities and thus presumably work well together in multi-classing, but less so with other classes. Mr. Oskar also likes to advertise--nay--boast that his ‘retools’ increase existing abilities of the official classes, like the healer’s healing, the monk’s punching or the warmage’s blasting! Preposterous! Such pride is of the highest grades of sin!


Severity of Crimes
We shall now examine the severity of several of the crimes committed by the defendant!


Tier 3:
Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212830); by splitting up the official Warlock’s Invocations into normal Invocations, Eldritch Blast enhancements and Pact Boons, Mr. Oskar greatly increased the class’ versatility. Along with making several options for different kinds of pacts, there was added more choices to the class, plus some new invocations as well. Overall, this proved to be a great boost to the Warlock, one they were desperately longing for, but one those wretched villains never earned for themselves!
Warmage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131346); a relatively small and simple project of Mr. Oskar’s, the greatest changes he brought to the Warmage were several small class feature additions that yet gave a great increase in power, while greatly expanding the spell list as well, bringing it up to Tier 3 in the process. With how small of a project this was, such changes he could still make are downright frightening.

Borderline Tier 3-4:
Bez-Kismet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153696); any changes and empowerments to the unholy pest that is the Hexblade are illegal in 57 countries and 46 states! The punishment for this should be to make Mr. Oskar one of them: without fate!
Healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133118); in Mr. Oskar’s own words, he gave his Healer ‘retool’ a full total of “150% more healing, 200% more buffing, 300% better healing and 500% more offensive abilities”. Investigations show that these percentages in reality are close to 53%, 240%, 219% and 837% respectively. This clearly shows the man is deceitful!
Marshal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186681); with this one, we can be lucky that its power can be limited by limiting its allies. The Marshal by itself is generally Tier 4, for it mainly increases the numbers, including its own, but its action-granting is powerful and highly dependent on what the target of it can and will do with it.
Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10687545#post10687545); restraining himself from making use of his earlier defilement of Tome of Battle can perhaps be ascribed to the thinking of many who are guilty of the crime of homebrew that they would be making Crusaders, not Paladins. In his quest to ‘retool’ the Paladin, Mr. Oskar has made Smiting per-encounter-based, granted access to cleric spells, boosted their saves even further and even granted them special new attacks and auras! Worst of all, Paladins no longer are immune to fear… they even become better while afraid! This Paladin is just as the project name suggests… heretical!

Tier 4:
Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120539); while most martial adept classes are Tier 3 at least, the Blademaster focuses on only one discipline entirely, thus not getting any benefits from other disciplines until late. Despite having full access to his chosen discipline, this greatly limits its versatility, yet giving it a decent amount of power and choice in which maneuver to use at any time. Ultimately, it is one of the few Tier 4 martial adept classes. If that isn’t some kind of hypocrisy, I don’t know what is.
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126346); providing a boost to the Monk? Why, that’s blasphemous in its inherent nature, the Monk is after all the most flavourful base class of all and perfect without any dead levels. Many parts are kept intact, thank god, but Ki Strike has been improved, more bonus feats are granted and the Monk is overall updated with a ki system of sorts.
Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127673); the wonderful Wizards of the Coast once decided to delve into the mysteries of the Orient and created as a result. To alter one of the classes that came out of that venture into a more magical Rogue powered by an improved ki system is an insult to the honour of the people of the East!
Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165522); the addition of Trapfinding, Fast Movement and Favoured Terrain/Plane added some minor things to the Ranger, as well as the Fighter bonus feats in addition to his Combat Style, as a whole made the Ranger a lot stronger and allowed for more leniency on feat choice. Lenient on feat choice? Ha! As if anyone needs that! Feats were meant to be rare for anyone but the Fighter! We’re lucky that overall those changes and additions, as well as the switch to Druid spells, still wasn’t enough to increase its Tier, but the changes certainly do make it better. Defendant also may have a hidden love for Disney movies.
Samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143018); how dare the defendant use Japanese words that the prosecution does not understand! This, and their breadth of choices, great amount of bonus feats and ki power insult both official Samurai! We are lucky that it is still relatively weak compared to all the other works of the defendant!

Further analysis of his additional materials shows that in its entirety the defendant has a great sense of balance, generally aiming for the border between the so-called ‘Tiers’ 3 and 4, providing fluff in very nice packaging in minimal amounts, mainly because his goal appears to be altering official materials to his own sense of balance and bringing up classes to that level for which he deems the official class is not sufficiently powerful or versatile enough.

Even if the act of homebrewing was not a heinous crime, Mr. Oskar still clearly is eliminating everyone who does not like clear-cut explanations of abilities, his overly long introductions, many pages of fluff text on special codes for Paladins or Samurai dictating rules they might hold themselves to and who prefers a class balance of Tier 1, 2, 5, 6 or Truenamer-style from his target audience. And the Rule Zero Statute of the 2008 Magustrate Convention of Seattle clearly states that whenever target audiences are involved, everyone should be included!


A Word From the Defendant
The defendant has generously provided us with a pre-made retort on his motives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13410209&postcount=103). Completely ridiculous, of course, but the the defendant had the right to spout this nonsense.


The Verdict
The Jury has decided!

We find the defendant guilty of homebrewing base classes in the first degree.
We find the defendant guilty of homebrewing prestige classes in the first degree.
We find the defendant guilty of homebrewing feats in the first degree.
We find the defendant guilty of homebrewing monsters in the first degree.
We find the defendant guilty of altering official material.
We find the defendant guilty of possession of several ranks in the Balance (Homebrew) skill.
We find the defendant guilty of incredible verbosity.
We find the defendant guilty of acts of theatrical flair.
We find the defendant guilty of awesomeness in the second degree.

The punishment for this is



TWENTY-THREE
INTERNETS





*Also known as ‘Otto’ to some. Dance moves as of yet unknown.

Lix Lorn
2012-07-10, 01:53 PM
I laughed. A lot. xD

kanachi
2012-07-10, 02:21 PM
Y'know, considering this is the first time I'm doing this, I kinda felt like I should pick someone easy or with a small amount of 'brew, but you know what? Screwcork to that! I'll just be going with the only one nominated not by himself! Who, presumably, has been notified of course, and since more than 48 hours have passed since the nomination I think I can be safe in saying there aren't any objections on his part. Of course, the next times I do this (because I undoubtedly will do this again, at least if people like the below result), I'll simply roll a die for myself to randomly pick someone nominated. For now though, let's get on with it!

...and thus began one of the most awesome internet posts these eyes have ever had the pleasure or reading.

They may have found the Higgs Boson but i have found the best post on the internet!

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-10, 03:53 PM
Yay! Do me next, do me next!

You know, in celebration of finally having an extended siggy! >.>

Shadow Lord
2012-07-10, 06:59 PM
If you can nominate people, then I nominate Kellus, because I like his stuff.

Pyromancer999
2012-07-10, 07:17 PM
Yay! Do me next, do me next!

You know, in celebration of finally having an extended siggy! >.>

Me next after Lord_Gareth! For his 'brew be interesting.

T.G. Oskar
2012-07-10, 07:34 PM
Hold it! (http://youtu.be/JO8tXrTwzWk?t=1m59s)

Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, and Honorable Jury of this Homebrew Court, if I may present an...

Objection! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWwhIjYBan0)

...and, exerting my right to defend myself, I wish to appeal for a fairer trial!

As my first statement, the appeal is not in order to neglect the judgment of this Honorable Court and of Justice Morpholomew Bark, but that I have found four points that were unduly neglected during the examination.

Point #1:
During the rigorous examination of my work, which was limited mostly to homebrewed classes, I found that the study of the "Monk" class used an outdated version of the 'brew. If I may, I wish to present this Honorable Court with the latest version of the Monk (Exhibit A (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226857)). This version is truly in accordance with my vision of homebrewed content, and I recognize its labyrinthine amount of content which may leave people feebleminded upon a close examination. The content has been mildly revised by the good fellows of the Dungeons & Dragons Wiki Proper, Homebrew Consultation and Marketing Services (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Main_Page), which may end up further improving the recipe (Exhibit B (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Talk:Monk,_Retooled_(3.5_Class))). I would desire the prosecution to provide a clear definition between my earlier attempt, which I have deemed "Monk Lite" and approved for people intolerant to heavily homebrewed content, from the "Retooled Monk" proper.

Point #2:
I have found that various pieces of homebrewed content are missing, particularly one which I have yet to update on my Expanded Homebrew Signature. I would like to present the Court with the latest posted 'brew, the Zealot (Exhibit C (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245559)), a piece of homebrew using the Incarnum system as sanctioned by the Wizards of the Coast, and an extensive revision of the Soulborn class using the Divine Champion chassis as presented in Project Heretica.

Point #3:
If allowed by this Honorable Court, I would wish to cross-examine the prosecution's dictaminations regarding the Retooled Ranger, on the grounds of "retooling provides no Tier improvement to the class ending in a zero-upgrade version".

The prosecution's words regarding the Retooled Ranger are as follows:

Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165522); the addition of Trapfinding, Fast Movement and Favoured Terrain/Plane added some minor things to the Ranger, as well as the Fighter bonus feats in addition to his Combat Style, as a whole made the Ranger a lot stronger and allowed for more leniency on feat choice. Lenient on feat choice? Ha! As if anyone needs that! Feats were meant to be rare for anyone but the Fighter! We’re lucky that overall those changes and additions, as well as the switch to Druid spells, still wasn’t enough to increase its Tier, but the changes certainly do make it better. Defendant also may have a hidden love for Disney movies.

Now, based on the original document regarding the Tier System for classes:

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psychic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Zhentarium Variant)

The comparison case pits the Wildshape variant Ranger (Exhibit D (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger)) with the vanilla Ranger (Exhibit E (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm)), placing one in a higher tier than the other. The oft-touted comparison test between Tiers results as follows:


Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

In theory, because of the ability to turn into animals while retaining spellcasting ability, the Ranger can deal with a Black Dragon while avoiding traps through judicious use of wildshape, use forms to avoid suspicion and find the secret hideout of the resistance, and...this person find a lack of evidence to support a city against an army of Orcs.

Now, I would like to present the extensive list of changes done to the Ranger class, and how the changes may present a different observation of the Tier:
The list of class skills has been expanded, to add trap-defusing options such as Disable Device, and mobility options such as Tumble.
An extensive alteration to Combat Styles in order to change their perception as "fixed set of bonus feats" into veritable improvements to the class. The fact that all improvements are Extraordinary in nature improve their effectiveness.
Their spellcasting ability was improved in a significant way. Druid spellcasting is only a fraction of what they possess, as the list of spells includes enhancements such as [Greater] Magic Weapon and Haste, stealth spells such as Invisibility, detection spells such as See Invisibility and even debuffing tactics such as Glitterdust and Slow. These are neither part of the Ranger list nor part of the Druid list, but rather a selection of spells that provide a much-needed boost to the Ranger. Also, a few spells were reduced in spell level for ease of access, such as the Cure Wounds line.
Favored Enemy, alongside Favored Terrain, are switchable options. Weekly (or daily with a penalty), the Ranger may switch their set of favored enemies to better suit their needs; as well, the bonus on skills focuses exclusively on stealth and detection skills (no Bluff) and grants the bonus to attack rolls. Favored Enemy can now apply properly against the most common creatures within an area, and works best when the Ranger has prior study of the enemies and the terrain, a tactic often used by Tier 1 characters (although on their own, unlike the Ranger).
The addition of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge make them able to withstand any ambushes, and even flanking, except by Rogues of four levels higher. A Ranger facing a Rogue four levels higher may also be facing another monster of four levels higher, which by itself involves a "difficult challenge".
Their animal companion has been thoroughly boosted to mere inches behind the Druid's one (the Ranger counts as a Druid three levels lower), thus enabling Brown Bears, Dire Lions, Fleshrakers and other nasty creatures to lend their assistance.
Their class features reinforce their dual mastery of stealth and perception, as abilities such as Survival Mastery ensure a safe boundary for results, whereas abilities such as Untraceable mingle with Darkstalker to make the Ranger essentially invisible to everything. Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight are reduced from their original levels to make them viable much earlier.
Not only do they have Evasion, they also have Improved Evasion. This means that they'll rarely be harmed by traps in the eventualiity they fail a saving throw, making them more than a match for a Rogue specialized in trap disarming.

Now, using the sanctioned situations where the Tiers are put to test, let's examine the results:
Situation 1: The Ranger has Disable Device, Search, the Detect Snares and Pits spell, and various other buffs to its disposal. In theory, the Ranger could lead the party to safety, potentially finding how many enemies are located in the cave by looking at the tracks (as the Ranger is a master Survivalist). Fighting alongside the dragon, the Ranger and its animal companion function as a lethal duo, particularly if the Ranger specializes in dragons; as they're about to face a dragon, it is natural that the Ranger changes its enemy specialization to Dragons and its terrain specialization to Underground, thus taking advantage of both bonuses. Albeit not alone, the Ranger can stand its ground effectively against the Dragon, what with its Evasion ability (and eventual Improved Evasion) deny the Dragon's greatest weapon. It all depends on the combat style, as Archery (or Throwing) become particularly potent whereas Capturing not as much (but it allows the Ranger to stand its ground against the Dragon's grappling check, unless it wishes to use Escape Artist).
Situation #2: The Ranger can use its stealth and athletic skills to find the best path, and through they lack Gather Information to find the individual, a careful search for tracks may lead it to the secret hideout, which it may find using Search. Or, if a contact is available, the Ranger may use Animal Messengers to relay information towards a safer place, one which may be under the Ranger's advantage. This requires a great degree of improvisation, so the Ranger may be under-equipped for this one, but it can solve otherwise.
Situation #3: The Ranger is a warrior first and foremost, but it also has the skill of creating traps, which it may use to its advantage. By setting up the right terrain and the right favored enemy (orcs), it can take advantage of a great bonus to attack and damage rolls every turn. With spells such as Entangle, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow and others, you can set up various traps that can slow down even the worst horde, while providing your allies with decisive advantages. The Ranger may not be the best leader in the party, but he'll rack up the most kills if set up properly.

Now, this cross-examination may seem a bit biased, but I have presented the sanctioned method of examining a class' Tier, and thus it is reasonable to assume that, with the new evidence, the prosecution may choose to reformulate its statement and potentially improving the rating of the Ranger, at least to borderline Tier 3.

Point #4:
The last, and in my honest and humble opinion the most important, is that the prosecution gravely misunderstood the scope and importance of Project Heretica, which, if the Court allows me to be so bold, is what I would consider my Magnum Opus; it is, after all, through sublimation of the Paladin to its barest essence that I found the important discovery of the chassis underlying each class, the structure and skeleton of all classes and what, in a sense, defines each.

For starters, as I've stated proper on the first post, it HAS to deal with Paladins, but it goes beyond. The full scope of Project Heretica cannot, and should never be, limited only to its Paladin class. To do so would be to neglect the Blackguard, the Justiciar and the Anarch (what I like to call the "Peanut Butter And Jelly" classes), the extensive boosts to Prestige Classes like the Hospitaller, the Pious Templar, the Gray Guard, the Hunter of the Dead and the Knight of the Chalice, as well as the plethora of Alternate Class Features for all classes, and even the improvements to the Holy Avenger and the introduction of Armor Suits of Virtue.

Now, I understand clearly that the position of the Court is to study the homebrewed classes, as these are the only ones that may be Tiered proper. Even then, the Court (and the Prosecution, by that), neglected the study of the other classes of Project Heretica, as they are based on the same chassis and thus may be seen as mirror images of each other. While this is largely the case, further observation indicates that they hold significative differences. To boot: the Paladin is more defensive, relying on shields and defensive auras, and providing offensive through retributive damage. The Blackguard falls on the line of all-out offense, with most of their tactics being focused towards dealing as much damage as possible, and minor debuffing. The Justiciar has a balanced amount of offense and defense, but it has a strong specialization upon Incapacitation, as it is a deputized officer of the Law. The Anarch relies on happenstance, and its main offensive tactic becomes further improved when leaving luck to the wind. All four, while based on the same chassis, are distinct enough to merit further investigation. Furthermore, the retooled Paladin has been evaluated extensively by the good fellows of the Dungeons & Dragons Wiki Proper, Homebrew Consultation and Marketing Services (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Main_Page), of which several changes have been done to power up the class. The fellows have deemed, thus far, that the Project Heretica Paladin stands around the High/Rogue level of balance, which is mostly equivalent to Tier 3 in many cases, or that the 'brew aims for it.

In my humble and honest opinion, I have a worry that the Court may be biased towards considering partial spellcasting unworthy of Tier 3, reserved only for two-thirds spellcasting (the method of spellcasting used by the Bard and the Psychic Warrior). I may be forced to explain, in no simple words, why "half spellcasting" done the right way isn't an impediment for a class to achieve Tier 3, and that such a line of thought leads to discrimination (but perhaps not now, and not in this place). I am strongly against the idea that a Paladin, a Ranger or a "half"-spellcaster cannot reach Tier 3 unless it upgrades to 6-level spellcasting. It is an affront (I may even dare say sin) to creativity, particularly when a creative option such as expanding the spell list to its roots and re-arranging spells may prove just as useful.

After having presented my points, I leave to the consideration of the Honorable Court of Homebrew and its presiding judge, Justice Bark, to analyze my points and re-evaluate the final decision.

Lix Lorn
2012-07-10, 07:46 PM
Okay now this is the best thread.

Techwarrior
2012-07-10, 07:57 PM
:belkar: think I have time to grab popcorn?

Pyromancer999
2012-07-10, 09:32 PM
This is legen-allofthelactoseintolrantpeoplegetoutofthethreadbec auseitsabouttobefullof-DARY!

Lix Lorn
2012-07-10, 10:00 PM
This is legen-allofthelactoseintolrantpeoplegetoutofthethreadbec auseitsabouttobefullof-DARY!
...while not on the level of the posts we're talking about, this did make me laugh.

Morph Bark
2012-07-11, 02:24 PM
Spoilered for file sizes. Be sure to click this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV22lA8nKyY&feature=related) before opening the spoiler.
“...

...th-this... is an outrage! The defendant does not know his place, frankly we should move to remove him from court immediately and have the punishment inflicted right away!"

http://www.court-records.net/animationHD/edgeworth_3-4/Thumbs/Animation_012.gif


"Excuse me, could somebody please explain to me why the Honourable Prosecutor is sitting in my chair?"

"Wh-what? What is this?! National Outrage Day?!"

http://www.court-records.net/animationHD/edgeworth_3-4/Thumbs/Animation_008.gif


"No, just the real Justice in this case. Bailiff, kindly remove this man from the stand."

"No! NO! Get your... curse you all! My lawyer will hear of this! And your lawyers will hear from mine! And you from your lawyers! I'll be back, you hear me? I'LL BE BACK!"

http://www.court-records.net/animationHD/edgeworth_3-4/Thumbs/Animation_008.gif


"Right. Sure. Anyway, now that I've got my chair back, I've missed you, chairy-chan, I believe there was a case going on here? I was ever so lucky to just be able to catch some of Mr. Oskar's counterpoints to the prosecution, so let us address them, shall we?

Point #1: The Monk
Due to the surfacing of new evidence in the form of Exhibit B, re-examination of the Monk shall have to be post-poned to another date yet to be determined. The court accepts that the prosecution investigated the wrong evidence and moves to have the Retooled Monk stricken from it and replaced with the Monk Lite.

Point #2: Unchecked Homebrew
As our capable officers have informed me that they had to work off a list of possibilities submitted by the defendant himself. Due to its apparent incompleteness, further investigation may be necessary, as suggested by the defendant, Mr. Oskar. Cursory investigation into the Zealot suggests that is at least on-par with the official Totemist, which would suggest that the class falls in the Borderline Tier 3-4 range.

Point #3: The Ranger
The court accepts the defendants plea to re-examination of the Retooled Ranger. While the change in spell list does not influence the class in any major way, nor does the addition of Improved Evasion on account of the class having a good Reflex save and a likely Dexterity focus, ensuring the save will have a high chance of succeeding and thus negating all the damage with normal Evasion, nor does the boost to Combat Styles prove enough to boost it a Tier despite being a very good change and allowing greater flexibility in builds, the court accepts that the additional skills and Trapfinding--normally only accessible as an Alternative Class Feature--add to the class' versatility, as well as the changeable Favoured Enemy, Favoured Terrain and Favoured Plane. On top of this, the court makes note of the large changes in playstyle these additions and changes bring, as well including the addition of Uncanny Dodge and its Improved version and the boost to the Animal Companion, which the court agrees the Ranger deserves. As such, the court makes note of the defendant's concerns and moves to up its Tier.

Point #4: Project Heretica
Examining the files of the prosecution, they seem have noted that they deemed the other classes mentioned by Mr. Oskar 'similar enough to not warrant further individual investigation'. This is clearly laziness and investigation of the Paladin should not immediately count as investigation of the other classes as well, even though the prosecution did only present their case for the Paladin as not counting for the entire Project. As such, the court makes note to include the other parts of Project Heretica in further investigations.

Now, the court would like Mr. Oskar to know that his concerns regarding the Tiering process will be taken into regard. However, the court would like to inform Mr. Oskar that due to the presence of too few half-casters in official publications it becomes harder to place similar classes, especially since half-casting is usually not really a major feature and tends not to be capitalized on. Of the official classes falling into Tier 3 only the Ranger is one of them and the reason he falls into Tier 3 is because of his Wildshape ability, not his half-casting or other abilities. The others make use of greater-than-half-casting, martial maneuvers or other subsystems, the only true exception being the Duskblade, which falls into the lower end of Tier 3. The court would like to inform Mr. Oskar that it is for this reason that the Borderline Tier was created, which includes the Duskblade, the Totemist and others. Furthermore, the court does acknowledge that classes not using a subsystem can still fall into Tier 3, as the Chozo Warrior, Gambler and Olympian show, and which cursory investigation of the Retooled Monk (the non-Lite version) suggests it falls into.

The court would also like to inform all those present that it does not share the opinion of the prosecution that Wizards of the Coast is 'holy', 'wonderful' or 'illustrious'. The court could also really go for a cup of tea right now.

In any case, Mr. Oskar, I hope you enjoyed this examination and would like to see more of you in the future. As such, I am proud to say that...




http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7949/youvebeentieredlarge2.png

tl;dr
Ha! You really think that with T.G. Oskar involved there would be concise versions?

OOC
To put this differently, after I chose T.G. Oskar for the purpose of this investigation (which I sincerely hope he liked and enjoyed to read and respond to), I realized that I might have chosen a person a little too... grand in his mechanations for a first investigation. Sure, it did allow me to kick this feature of the Homebrew Tier Compendium off with a blast, and sure, there will be more later on, just not yet, as I don't want to overdo this, but I experienced first-hand how Oskar (if I may call him that) can turn even a relatively simple class into a Big Read. And that's not even including everything in his spoiler boxes! It is for this reason that when I reached Project Heretica that I decided to only deal with the Paladin at the time (hence why I linked directly to the post the Paladin is in and not the first post of the thread) and I ended up skipping about a quarter of the links in his Extended Homebrew Signature entirely. I hope I did largely tackle his Retooled classes appropriately and his Warlock is prettymuch my go-to fix for the class if I wish to use a fix. I think my largest problems is, with regards to classes like his Ranger, that I simply am not familiar enough with the Druid's spell list of levels 1-4 to judge how much that would contribute to bringing the Ranger to a higher Tier. From Oskar's end, or any homebrewer's really, I think the problem is moreso not really a problem, but that a person is usually one of the most knowledgeable about their class and what they can do with it, which would automatically mean that by virtue of their mechanically prowess with the class alone they could bring it up a Tier. Sometimes though, a homebrewer overshoots or undershoots their intended goal, yet they cannot see it and think their class is Tier X, while in reality it is Tier X+2 or Tier X-1. In this particular case, I trust that Oskar has greater experience and knowledge about Druids and their spells and thus knows that they would genuinely help the Retooled Ranger to be better than the official Ranger, at least spellcasting-wise (though on part of Combat Style and Animal Companion it is flat-out better, no doubt about it) and that most of the time he certainly has his classes end up in the Tier he aimed for (I am guessing the fact that in his rebuttal he said nothing about the other classes of his that I Tiered means that he largely agrees with the Tiering for them).

Anyway, I had a lot of fun doing this and reading T.G. Oskar's reply. :smallsmile: I would like to thank him for his reply and thank Savannah for making the graphic, which will see more use in the future. The next full examination will not follow immediately, as it'd likely get old soon if I did them back-to-back and I'd burn out. I prefer to switch things up and keep it fresh, so the next one may not even go courtroom-style at all! In the meantime, stay tuned everybody, because there are a whole lot more classes waiting out there to be Tiered!

OOC tl;dr
You're a stubborn one, aren't you?

toapat
2012-07-11, 03:31 PM
Courtcase #Purple: Oscar vs Bark was a pretty good read

also, I would like to recieve a review, as i am rather new to homebrew, although exchanging a rating for the Marine with my original Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13026488#post13026488)

The-Mage-King
2012-07-11, 04:05 PM
Barrier Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177861); Dispeller’s Haze doesn’t specify if it works or doesn’t with non-Barrier Mage spells, which could make it a great dip for other casters. Knowledge (strategy and tactics) doesn’t exist and generally falls under Knowledge (history) due to including facts on wars. The intention here was in keeping from it having any damaging spells even if they are primarily control spells, such as Wall of Fire/Ice and Black Tentacles, though Web isn’t included either. On the other hand, due to its limited skill list and low skill points (though with Int synergy), it cannot function as a skill monkey. Getting damaging control spells or more skill points and class skills and a class feature or two fit for a skillmonkey would make this a real Tier 3 class.


Just according to keikaku*. I aimed it at being roughly equal to the Warmage, and apparently succeeded. The clarification on Dispeller's Haze might be needed, though, and the change to skills as well.



*Translator's note: keikaku means plan

Zaydos
2012-07-11, 04:08 PM
As a note, yes I am a stubborn one. What you thought I'd only read the long versions?

Noctis Vigil
2012-07-11, 05:29 PM
I would like to submit myself and my homebrew to this thread for tiering. My complete list of finished stuff is in my extended homebrew signature, but I will link to a few specific pieces I'd like tiered. Of note: I tend to just make what sounds fun to me, and worry about tiers later, so some of these might be a little unbalanced when compared to some core classes and such.

The Sage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230312). I consider this my best class so far. Gains spellcasting in the form of SLAs, as well as a bunch of Knowledge based abilities. Concept drawn from the age old idea of a wise man on top of a mountain that everyone goes to for advice. Possible tags: [Arcane], [Divine], [Vancian-Unique], [Magic], [Sage]

The Handyman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219124). One of my earlier classes, it's still well done IMHO. Goal was a class who was pretty much strictly skillbased, with a bit of combat thrown in there. Basically a Rogue without the sneaky assassin/theft bits. Possible tags: [Face], [Sage], [Roleplay]

T6 Base Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244450). That's right. Eleven classes with an aim of T6. I suspect many of them are actually T5, but there should be at least one here that's T6 material. Most of these are inspired by classes that are not T6, making them...wimpified? Devolved? Sub-par? versions of real base classes.

The Arcane Crafter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249172). Quite possibly the most controversial bit of homebrew I've created, at least one person at my table told me this was tier 0. While I don't believe that for a moment, it is a powerful class. Concept was a caster who specializes in the creation of and modification of magic items. Possible tags: [Arcane], [Vancian], [Crafter], [Magic]

I look forward to anything you may have to say about my classes. :smallsmile:

DonQuixote
2012-07-11, 06:15 PM
When you have time--and I mean that quite sincerely, since there's a lot involved here--it would be great if you could attempt to Tier my spellshaping base classes. They're essentially a magical spin-off of the Tome of Battle. Unfortunately, this would mean that you'd have to look through the circles of formulae, as well, since doing otherwise would be akin to trying to Tier the wizard without looking at a single spell in existence.


Base Classes
Anchorite (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=983.0)
Dragonheart Adept (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1480.0)
Elemental Adept (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=851.0)
Flamespeaker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2801.0)
Impulse Mage (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=852.0)
Savant (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=984.0)
Spellsage (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=853.0)
Spellshape Champion (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=854.0)
Spellshot Marksman (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6075.0)
Sublime Shaper (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2737.0)


Circles and Formulae:
Astral Essence (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1006.0)
Blustering Gale (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=857.0)
Brilliant Dawn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=858.0)
Crushing Stone (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=860.0)
Deteriorating Corrosion (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=863.0)
Devouring Shadow (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=864.0)
Eternal Moment (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1008.0)
Fleeting Image (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4073.0)
Glimmering Moon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=865.0)
Natural Balance (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=867.0)
Perfect Freeze (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=868.0)
Roaring Tide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=870.0)
Screeching Roc (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3095.0)
Searing Flame (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=871.0)
Shocking Current (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=872.0)
Unseen Impetus (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=873.0)


Given the ludicrous amount of material here, I'll understand if you choose to delay this one for a while.

Veklim
2012-07-11, 06:32 PM
I wish to humbly present my one and only posted base class, The Open Palm (link in sig) for a good, honest Morphin'! :smallwink:

I warn thee, the fluff is a bit on the long side, and there's a fair bit of reading, but it's only 1, promise!:smalltongue:

Impressive work btw, you have the patience of an Inevitable good sir!

Morph Bark
2012-07-12, 01:37 PM
As a note, yes I am a stubborn one. What you thought I'd only read the long versions?

Cheeky!


*snip*

Many "Tier 6" classes I've seen do indeed venture quite easily into Tier 5 terrain. It would also appear that your Arcane Crafter is so overpowered it turned itself into something else! :smalltongue:


Impressive work btw, you have the patience of an Inevitable good sir!

Now that is just a blatant lie! I... uh... well, I don't quite know how to respond, but still!

Thanks though. :smalltongue:

Still, yes, there's been quite a bit of work done in the past month since I started. I started this only on the 7th of June and now, just a little over a month later, I've Tiered 79 original classes and 23 Fix classes.

I originally had actually thought I was on 99 original classes now, but made a miscalculation that made me off by 20, so that's just been fixed. Otherwise I would've made a special occassion out of Tiering the 100th tomorrow morning before the party.

Garryl
2012-07-12, 06:42 PM
Morph Bark, can I get some explanation behind the Tier 2 ranking of my Soulknife fix? I expected Tier 3, and I can see high Tier 3, but I don't see the game breaker that's needed to go to Tier 2. Thanks.

Pyromancer999
2012-07-12, 09:42 PM
Still, yes, there's been quite a bit of work done in the past month since I started. I started this only on the 7th of June and now, just a little over a month later, I've Tiered 79 original classes and 23 Fix classes.


Wow. That's a lot.



I originally had actually thought I was on 99 original classes now, but made a miscalculation that made me off by 20, so that's just been fixed.


Still, it is a lot. And you've technically tiered 102 classes, if you count fixes.



Otherwise I would've made a special occassion out of Tiering the 100th tomorrow morning before the party.

A PartyITP? I should've known. :smallbiggrin: Haha, have fun at your party. You know, so you can be refreshed for tiering. :smallbiggrin: No, seriously, is there a PartyITP? Because that'd be pretty cool, although I have no idea if that's technically possible and would there be cake if there was?

toapat
2012-07-12, 10:08 PM
nice job on the 102 ratings

Techwarrior
2012-07-12, 10:12 PM
would there be cake

Yes, but we all know the cake is a lie.

That is quite a lot Morph. Congrats!

madock345
2012-07-15, 12:31 AM
I would be quite happy if you wanted to check out my japanese stuff (in sig) the ninja is finished, and I guess the samurai is too since no one seems to have had any problems with it. I will build the monk when I get back into the country. (It's hard to get internet here)

Morph Bark
2012-07-15, 12:24 PM
Morph Bark, can I get some explanation behind the Tier 2 ranking of my Soulknife fix? I expected Tier 3, and I can see high Tier 3, but I don't see the game breaker that's needed to go to Tier 2. Thanks.

I'd have to give it a deep look into it again then, I guess. IIRC, it was somewhat well-hidden. I'll give it a re-evaluation at a later date, alright?


Wow. That's a lot.


Still, it is a lot. And you've technically tiered 102 classes, if you count fixes.


A PartyITP? I should've known. :smallbiggrin: Haha, have fun at your party. You know, so you can be refreshed for tiering. :smallbiggrin: No, seriously, is there a PartyITP? Because that'd be pretty cool, although I have no idea if that's technically possible and would there be cake if there was?

There was cake that day, but not at that party. The cake was only for my family. :smalltongue:

Thanks all for the congratulations. Yes, it's been quite a lot so far already, more than I had dared expect at the beginning. :smallsmile:


Within shortly, I'll examine mainly martial disciplines, because I intend to use them for a homebrew-heavy game for which inspiration came to me after watching Sword Art Online.

As such, I'll ask a previous question again that was passed over, as I am still thinking I should change the way I tag martial disciplines. Instead of what I have now, I'm thinking of changing it to this:

Discipline Name
Creator: Name. Tier: Tier 2-3-4. Skill: Skill. Weapons: Cutty, pokey and crushy. Theme: Theme or themes. Comments:

Alternatively:


Discipline Name
Creator: Name.
Tier: Tier 2-3-4.
Skill: Skill.
Weapons: Cutty, pokey and crushy.
Theme: Theme or themes.
Comments:

Does that sound good? Which of these options looks better to you?

DracoDei
2012-07-15, 01:31 PM
I prefer the alternate version you listed last. EDIT: But I said that before.

Temotei
2012-07-15, 01:46 PM
I prefer the alternate version you listed last.

If you're separating each discipline by individual spoilers, I think the second one would be better. Agreed.

If you're putting disciplines together, the first would probably make it look better based on saved space.

Techwarrior
2012-07-15, 02:31 PM
If you're separating each discipline by individual spoilers, I think the second one would be better. Agreed.

If you're putting disciplines together, the first would probably make it look better based on saved space.

This ^ I very much agree with Temotoi.

Zaydos
2012-07-15, 02:55 PM
Going to also chime in agreeing with Temotei.

Lix Lorn
2012-07-15, 04:57 PM
Discipline Name
Creator: Name.
Tier: Tier 2-3-4.
Skill: Skill.
Weapons: Cutty, pokey and crushy.
Theme: Theme or themes.
Comments:
This just makes me want to make a tier 1 discipline. Just to see if it can be done.

Temotei
2012-07-15, 05:47 PM
This just makes me want to make a tier 1 discipline. Just to see if it can be done.

Level 1 Maneuver:

Win Game
Action: Free

You win the game.


It's the only maneuver in the discipline, which is unfortunate. It's not very versatile, but I think the power makes up for it. :smalltongue:

Eldan
2012-07-15, 05:53 PM
Level 1 Maneuver:

Win Game
Action: Free

You win the game.


It's the only maneuver in the discipline, which is unfortunate. It's not very versatile, but I think the power makes up for it. :smalltongue:

That makes it Tier 2, then, due to lack of versatility. It can only contribute in one situation. :smalltongue:

Temotei
2012-07-15, 05:59 PM
That makes it Tier 2, then, due to lack of versatility. It can only contribute in one situation. :smalltongue:

Darn. You're right. I'm spent. :smallsigh: :smallwink:

Morph Bark
2012-07-15, 06:32 PM
This just makes me want to make a tier 1 discipline. Just to see if it can be done.

I dare you. I double dare you. I triple bitch dare you.


Level 1 Maneuver:

Win Game
Action: Free

You win the game.

You win the game, but everybody loses it.


Anyhoo, I've changed it how it looks now. Made the indentation so that it'd look better. I think later I'll also make it so the names of the disciplines are not the links, instead putting them behind the names (like "Name [link]") for further improved readability.

Not everything is filled out yet, especially the disciplines lower down the list. The latter is simply because I'm out of time for today. Bedtime!

Eldan
2012-07-15, 07:24 PM
Spellcaster's Stance [Level 1]

You gain an arcane caster level equal to your initiator level. You gain spells per day as a wizard of a class level equal to your arcane caster level. Choose a number of spells equal to the number of maneuvers you know, of a level not higher than the highest level maneuver you know. These are treated as being in your spellbook. You may change these spells every time you enter the Spellcaster's Stance.


There. Simple.:smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2012-07-15, 09:25 PM
Oh god now I have to don't I. Whelp.

I'll just have to make it a greatest hits of broken spells, won't I.

toapat
2012-07-15, 09:38 PM
Oh god now I have to don't I. Whelp.

I'll just have to make it a greatest hits of broken spells, won't I.

The spell of ultimate CrazyMiraculous Wish

Level: Cleric/FVS 0, Wizard/Sorc 0, Paladin/Ranger 1
Component: None
Casting Time: Instant
Range: As Defined
Target: As defined
Duration: See Text
Saving Throw: none
Spell Resistance: No

Miraculous Wish may:

Replicate the effects of any Arcane or Divine spell, upto 9th level, with any metamagics you know of applied. If replicating a spell, Casterlevel is equal to 20d%.
Undo the effects of any spell.
Rewrite history as according to your will.
Create an item of upto +3200 Enhancement modifier
Grant you any Abillity, power, or spell you know.
Grant any number of Divine ranks, minimum 21

When you cast Miraculous wish, it does not consume a spell slot for the day.

Garryl
2012-07-15, 10:00 PM
I'd have to give it a deep look into it again then, I guess. IIRC, it was somewhat well-hidden. I'll give it a re-evaluation at a later date, alright?


No problem, take your time. I'm more interested in the logic behind the decision than changing it. What do you see that I've missed? That, and I'm a feedback junkie. The fact that my homebrew almost never gets any (which I can only assume means that it's all perfect) usually stymies that.

Eldan
2012-07-16, 05:22 AM
No problem, take your time. I'm more interested in the logic behind the decision than changing it. What do you see that I've missed? That, and I'm a feedback junkie. The fact that my homebrew almost never gets any (which I can only assume means that it's all perfect) usually stymies that.

I'll look at yours if I can show you mine. :smalltongue:
My wizard never got much comment other than a few short "this looks prettty good"'s . Which, while nice,doesn't help with development. What do you want peached?

Garryl
2012-07-17, 11:35 AM
I'll look at yours if I can show you mine. :smalltongue:
My wizard never got much comment other than a few short "this looks prettty good"'s . Which, while nice,doesn't help with development. What do you want peached?

Whatever looks interesting. My homebrew (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=241) is somewhat plentiful, so take a look and comment on whatever catches your eye. I'm not picky.

Xefas
2012-07-17, 12:10 PM
This just makes me want to make a tier 1 discipline. Just to see if it can be done.

I don't think it would be that hard. Each maneuver could represent one theme, but have multiple applications, and those applications do more than stabbing. You have, I dunno, Glorious God-King Mien, which can be used as either a Save-or-Suck AoE fear, a Diplomacy/Intimidate booster, a way of removing some status conditions (such as Shaken/Panicked/Frightened) from yourself and nearby allies, or a defensive measure that causes enemies to miss you out of stunned awe. And you change which way you use it every time.

Outpacing the Sun for your speed-boost, your teleport, maybe an AoE deafen and damage, etc.

Perhaps a stance, Transcendent Killing Arts Mastery, that allows you to invent new maneuvers for your discipline?

Techwarrior
2012-07-17, 12:15 PM
Spellcaster's Stance [Level 1]

You gain an arcane caster level equal to your initiator level. You gain spells per day as a wizard of a class level equal to your arcane caster level. Choose a number of spells equal to the number of maneuvers you know, of a level not higher than the highest level maneuver you know. These are treated as being in your spellbook. You may change these spells every time you enter the Spellcaster's Stance.


There. Simple.:smalltongue:

I think this would be the way to go for a T1 discipline. The trick is to make just T1 enough that it's T1, but not T0 enough that a DM will look at it and immediately dismiss it.

Morph Bark
2012-07-17, 01:05 PM
Hmmm, I already had an idea on a special feature to do on another homebrewer soon, but with a new idea I got now I think that before that I may do...

...something completely different. :smallcool:

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-17, 01:52 PM
Hmmm, I already had an idea on a special feature to do on another homebrewer soon, but with a new idea I got now I think that before that I may do...

...something completely different. :smallcool:

But Morph....I love you T_T

Temotei
2012-07-17, 03:16 PM
...something completely different. :smallcool:

Nobody expects something completely different!

Veklim
2012-07-17, 04:33 PM
Nobody expects something completely different!

....I did. You have to know these sorts of things when you're king. :smallwink:

137ben
2012-07-17, 05:06 PM
Sorry I'm late on this, but I would like to help appeal one of the "guilty" charges:

We find the defendant guilty of possession of several ranks in the Balance (Homebrew) skill.
He is certainly guilty of Craft (Homebrew), but Balance has no subskills! Therefore, his penalty should be reduced to 22 internets.

Pyromancer999
2012-07-17, 06:07 PM
Hmmm, I already had an idea on a special feature to do on another homebrewer soon, but with a new idea I got now I think that before that I may do...

...something completely different. :smallcool:

Seems interesting enough. Looking forward to seeing what that something completely different is.



But Morph....I love you T_T

Eeeh? An unexpected confession?



:smallbiggrin:

Morph Bark
2012-07-17, 07:20 PM
Nobody expects something completely different!

:smalltongue:


He is certainly guilty of Craft (Homebrew), but Balance has no subskills!

It does! In my head! ...I suppose at some point I should post my meta-homebrew of that sort and more, but still!


But Morph....I love you T_T

Wh-what?! Idiot! That is not a thing to say at a time like this...


http://i47.tinypic.com/9tfgd5.jpg

It's not like I'm doing you next or anything...

...wh-why are you looking at me like that?

...that's not what I meant and you know it!

Lix Lorn
2012-07-17, 07:55 PM
...why fem-naruto? xD

Pyromancer999
2012-07-17, 08:05 PM
...why fem-naruto? xD

Because Fem-Naruto is sexy and we know it. Obviously.

Lix Lorn
2012-07-17, 08:07 PM
Well obviously, but why her for a tsundere rather than an actual tsundere? xD

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-17, 08:19 PM
Excuse me folks, I need to go order my casket online before this laughter finally manages to kill me.

Pyromancer999
2012-07-17, 08:37 PM
Well obviously, but why her for a tsundere rather than an actual tsundere? xD

Obviously because Morph is a fem-Naruto in spirit. Maybe. I think.


Excuse me folks, I need to go order my casket online before this laughter finally manages to kill me.

Not really much laughter.

It's more:


http://otakunoregion.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/yuru-yuri-episode-8-tsundere-drooling-twin-26.jpg

And

http://shiv2go.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/naruto-fired-up.jpg


For fem-Naruto.


Or at least that's how it is for me.

Morph Bark
2012-07-18, 10:32 AM
Well obviously, but why her for a tsundere rather than an actual tsundere? xD

For many, many reasons...

The question is, should I tell you those, or shall we just let the mystery continue? :smallwink:


Obviously because Morph is a fem-Naruto in spirit. Maybe. I think.

My spirit is a good girl and doesn't afraid of anything! You make me think I should try cosplaying that though. :smalltongue:


Excuse me folks, I need to go order my casket online before this laughter finally manages to kill me.

Noooooes! I knew I should've used Alternate Personality Orihime!


That reminds me though, time to go watch new anime of Summer 2012! I'm already liking this one guy from Arcana Famiglia though. He has and is the omnomnoms. Plus I find it hilarious how it appears to be set up to be a harem anime, semi-disguised. Sword Art Online makes me have a face like in Pyromancer's spoiler though. No, wait, Arcana Famiglia does that too... eith way, I think I've found more stuff to occupy myself with. :3

On that note, while I continue to work behind the screens on Something Completely Different, I've actually gotten kinda curious how many anime fans are amongst the homebrewers here, what their favourite anime are (and favourite characters or other parts of anime). So, spill! :smallbiggrin:


whydoifeellikeiamturningthisthreadintoakindofrando mbanterthreadforthehomebrewforum

Eldan
2012-07-18, 10:39 AM
Hm. Some Anime. I do tend to dislike rather a lot about many Anime people dislike me. Most of those I start, I watch one episode, then never think about it again. I like Ghost in the Shell.

Zaydos
2012-07-18, 10:45 AM
Prefer manga to anime, but my favorite anime of late was Tiger and Bunny. What can I say, I like superheroes and Tiger was what I love about them. I keep meaning to watch some Fairy Tail since it's probably my favorite currently ongoing manga.

toapat
2012-07-18, 11:07 AM
Rerailing:

Can i please get my homebrew rated

lunar2
2012-07-18, 11:15 AM
Dragonball, of course. and gundam wing, and sailor moon, and outlaw star (can you tell i used to love toonami yet?).

Temotei
2012-07-18, 02:06 PM
On that note, while I continue to work behind the screens on Something Completely Different, I've actually gotten kinda curious how many anime fans are amongst the homebrewers here, what their favourite anime are (and favourite characters or other parts of anime). So, spill! :smallbiggrin:

The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.

Eldan
2012-07-18, 02:10 PM
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.

I still don't get what people see in that show. All the characters were unlikeable and the plot boring.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-18, 02:11 PM
Elfin Lied was one of my favorites.

DracoDei
2012-07-18, 02:24 PM
In no particular order
Iria
Bleach
Final Fantasy: Advent's Children
Buso Renkin (only saw a few episodes, but it looked good)
Princess Mononoki
Spirited Away
Howl's Moving Castle
Ghost in the Shell (more the second movie than the original)
Bagi, the Monster of Mighty Nature
Does the live-action version of "Speed Racer" count?
Does Samurai Jack count? (I have cosplayed as him).

I'll get around to watching Princess Tutu and/or Code Geas one of these days.

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-18, 03:18 PM
I love Miyazaki's work. Outside of that, huge fan of Ghost in the Shell, Hellsing, Fullmetal Alchemist, Elfen Lied, and El Carazon de la Bruja

Xefas
2012-07-18, 03:24 PM
I still don't get what people see in that show. All the characters were unlikeable and the plot boring.

Thank the gods. There is another like me. That show teetered on the cusp between worthless and bile-inducing.

But,
Cowboy Bebop
Ghost in the Shell
Evangelion
Trigun
Bokurano
Hellsing

Probably my A-list? Not counting stuff like Miyazaki movies (who doesn't like those?). I might be forgetting something...

Eldan
2012-07-18, 03:39 PM
Thank the gods. There is another like me. That show teetered on the cusp between worthless and bile-inducing.

But,
Cowboy Bebop
Ghost in the Shell
Evangelion
Trigun
Bokurano
Hellsing

Probably my A-list? Not counting stuff like Miyazaki movies (who doesn't like those?). I might be forgetting something...

A man of taste, no doubt!
Well, I haven't seen Bokurano (nor do I really know what it is), and I think Trigun took really long to get good after a rather annoying start, but otherwise I agree.
I also like Death Note a lot. And TTGL somehow managed to balance at just the right point between annoying and great to keep me watching it.

Tavar
2012-07-18, 03:46 PM
s-Cry-ed will always have a special place in my heart due to really introducing me to Anime. Plus, well, just being amazing in so many ways.

Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo is interesting if you can withstand the textures(oh god, so many textures).


Didn't like The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya either.

madock345
2012-07-18, 03:53 PM
Ghost in the shell
Fullmetal Alchimist (not so much Brotherhood)
Inuyasha
Naruto (both, but more first than shippuden)
Yu Yu Hakusho
Dragon Ball
Witch Hunter Robin
Sailor Moon

DracoDei
2012-07-18, 03:55 PM
Seeing a lot of stuff that I like but which didn't come to mind initially.

Temotei
2012-07-18, 04:38 PM
Seeing a lot of stuff that I like but which didn't come to mind initially.

I have pretty close to zero knowledge of what qualifies as anime, so I didn't say Miyazaki. His work would be first, with Princess Mononoke being my favorite of his.

Eldan
2012-07-18, 04:55 PM
Still haven't seen much Miyazaki. You have no idea how difficult it is around here to find his DVDs. The only shop I found that had them (or any Anime, really) only had the god-awful German Language version.And I couldn't find any working torrents for some reason.