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Azernak0
2012-06-07, 12:28 PM
I have been using this system for about a year in my campaigns. I figured I might as well throw this up here to see what y'all thought of it.

In my campaigns, healing does not exist. There are no healing spells, potions, or abilities that heal. If a class has an ability that heals them, it is usually made to only affect themselves and I try to make sure that it doesn't give them an unfair advantage. It works similar to how it works in 4E (I think, never read that much into 4E)

Each class gets a certain number of Healing Surges. The stereotypical Big Stupid Fighters get 8 (Barbarian, Fighter, etc), fighters that are generally not Big Stupid Fighters get 7 (Duskblades, Ranger, etc), 'specialist' fighters get 6 (Druids, Clerics, Monks, etc), and primary casters that generally the stereotypically don't go into battle get 4 (Wizard, Sorcerer, Psion). You then add half (rounded up) of the character's base constitution modifier to that number to get the total Healing Surges per day. Note that enhancement bonus does not count. Each time a Healing Surge is used, the character heals for 1/4 HP. Multi-classing is generally handled by deciding where a character falls into (IE, Sorcadin is between 5-7).

A Healing Surge can be used in two ways. The first is as a Move Action and the second is as an Immediate Action. A Move Action Healing Surge (for ease, I will just call it Surge) uses N+1 Healing Surges (henceforth stated as Tokens) and an Immediate Action uses N+2 Tokens. N is calculated by the number of Surges taken in the last 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, the N score resets.

For example, a Warblade with 60 HP and 16 base Constitution has 11 10 Tokens. After taking 30 points of damage in a single round, the Warblade decides to use a Move Action Surge to heal 15 HP. Since it is the first time it has been used in 5 minutes (the 5 minute rule generally just refers to a single combat), the Surge costs 1 token (N(0) + 1 = 1). On the enemies' turn, the Warblade uses an Immediate Action Surge to heal again for 15. This time, it costs 3 tokens (N(1) + 2 = 3). This trend continues until the Warblade goes 5 minutes without using a Surge.

This system means that the players are more restricted by the N score more than they are by there number of Tokens. An N score of 3 or 4 pretty much makes it impossible to use another Surge. However, after the combat, the player likely will be able to heal up. It also means that each character is responsible for their own health rather than having someone play a class capable of healing. Included in that, it means that no one has to play a Cleric/Druid if they do not want to. Tokens reset after total rest.

I have noticed a lot more tension in the fights with this system. I have seen my players contemplate this action many times: "Hmmm, I can't afford an Immediate Action Surge so if I need to heal, I need to do it on my turn. However, if I do that, than I can't full attack. What is better; playing it safe or risking it to kill him?"

As a DM, it also makes the random trap that does 11 damage worthwhile. Rather than use up a charge from the wand of lesser vigor, it actually costs the players a valuable and limited resource.

It might be just a "Well, it works in *my* campaign!" and just completely fails elsewhere. Any thoughts?

Glimbur
2012-06-07, 06:11 PM
When does the token count reset? I'd assume it resets after 8 hours of sleep, but I figured I would ask to be certain.

Do enemies get healing surges?

This makes random traps less trivial... unless the party leaves and comes back tomorrow. That's not always feasible, and it is pretty lame to do for the first arrow trap of the day.

Amechra
2012-06-07, 07:05 PM
Damn you, forums, for consuming my post!

I'm now going to steal this idea, and do wonderful, eldritch-horror-inducing things with it.

TaiLiu
2012-06-07, 07:15 PM
:smalleek:Wait, how do players who are knocked out heal themselves?

Seerow
2012-06-07, 07:23 PM
It looks just like the 4e healing surges, as you noted, except for the soft cooldown on surges. I'm not sure I see the need for the token terminology, just making using the healing in combat cost more healing surges accomplishes the exact same thing without introducing extra jargon.

I am curious though: Why half constitution modifier? Especially since you're not including enhancement bonuses? This means for the vast majority of people the addition is going to be either 1 or 0. Also, your example Warblade seems to add his full constitution mod... so yeah I'm confused.


Last thing: For multiclassing, you say you average the values. Might I suggest simply taking the highest value? Along the lines of how proficiencies are handled.

TuggyNE
2012-06-07, 10:18 PM
:smalleek:Wait, how do players who are knocked out heal themselves?

Heal skill from an ally, I hope?

Gamer Girl
2012-06-07, 10:46 PM
I just don't get healing surges....or most of 4E in general.


But other then that....why have such a system anyway? If you just want your characters to be immortal, why not just do less damage? That is a quick and easy way to stop any chance of character death. For example, just make all damage a character takes 1/4 of ''normal''. So for example: The Ultra Lich Lord King blasts you with his ray of ultimate necromancy for....Six points of damage!

It's simple enough...as characters will never loose many HP's they won't need to heal.

Empedocles
2012-06-07, 11:13 PM
If I were to implement this system, as it makes for good in combat healing and keeping everybody...alive, I wouldn't completely do away with magical healing.

Rather, I'd (probably) make the following changes:

No divine caster can spontaneously cast cure spells.
All cure spells take a number of minutes to cast equal to twice their spell level.
You cannot be healed more then twice in a day.
Items that heal people, such as potions and wands, do not exist. Healing is purely the domain of the gods.

This way at least very trivial wounds can be fixed up with a few minutes break, but at the expense of some more serious resources.

Azernak0
2012-06-08, 06:07 AM
Yes, Healing Surges do reset after rest. Sure, it is possible to do the fight, rest, fight, rest trick like it is Neverwinter Nights but it is really no different from usual. If a DM allows it, a DM allowed it.

Boss or tough fights get Healing Surges. It adds quite a bit of tankiness and can really make a boss fight feel like "boss."

Players who are unconscious, at least in my campaign, are stable and go to 0 HP (and conscious) at the end of fight.

I have allowed an "Aid Other" Standard Action to use a Surge on another player based on your N score. I don't allow this very often because I hate the "Ok, Dan is the healbot" aspect. Can also be used to wake up sleepy head.

I do not use the "Token" and "Surge" statement in my game. However, I explained it to a different group via e-mail and they got confused. I keep it called "Healing Surges" and the Action is to take a "Healing Surge" in actual play though. It is just in text saying "Use 4 Healing Surges to take a Healing Surge" can be difficult to explain. Clunky to read was preferable to confusing.

The characters are in no way immortal. A Warblade with 10 Surges (typographical error in OP) can heal 75% of his HP in a fight, but that costs between 6-10 Surges. That is a lot of HP but he is done for a fight. I have found that it lets me have big fights easier that normal healing. Again, just my experience.

I have gone back and forward on 1/2 Con or Full Con. I found that characters that stacked Con (In my games, the most average constitution score is 16) get a far and away bonus. IE, a DFA with 22 constitution gets an extra 6. I decided on half but obviously more works. That's the advantage of homebrew: It's all liquid! :smallamused:

I reward Healing Surges for character advancement, solid roleplay (IE, sticking in character and being able to justify why you would simply not do this despite metagame), or as just a reward. "You gain 2,000 gold" just does not get as much of a response as "you all gain a permanent Healing Surge."

Once per day, I let a Healing Surge action counts as a Lesser Restoration. The super awesome l33t sauce fighter should not be destroyed because he ate some bad berries and is away from town.

My campaigns have been tough. Really, really tough. I wanted a method to have each player care for their own safety and was unhappy when someone said "Well, I guess I will do the Healer this time." It has added a new level of play.



Last thing: For multiclassing, you say you average the values. Might I suggest simply taking the highest value? Along the lines of how proficiencies are handled.

Does not work. A Sorcadin would get more Healing Surges than a Duskblade despite the fact that they do the same job. A Wizard 1 / Binder 1 / Anima Mage X would have drastically more Surges than a Wizard despite only losing 1 Wizard level for free Metamagic. I generally just look to what role the character is going to preform and adjust from there.
YES, I desperately need a fairer system for this.

Seerow
2012-06-09, 12:44 AM
I just don't get healing surges....or most of 4E in general.


But other then that....why have such a system anyway? If you just want your characters to be immortal, why not just do less damage? That is a quick and easy way to stop any chance of character death. For example, just make all damage a character takes 1/4 of ''normal''. So for example: The Ultra Lich Lord King blasts you with his ray of ultimate necromancy for....Six points of damage!

It's simple enough...as characters will never loose many HP's they won't need to heal.


The point of healing surges isn't to make characters immortal. In fact, if you read the OP, in exchange for introducing healing surges, he removed basically all magical healing from the game. So characters can't just buy a wand of lesser vigor and restore to full hp after every fight anymore.

Healing Surges aren't about immortality, they represent the inner reserves a person has. The first and most important thing to realize is that Hit Points are not damage. A character who takes a 20 hit point damage hit does not in fact have a giant gaping gut wound, despite that being twice what is necessary to kill your average commoner. Hit Points represent luck, morale, stamina, and skill to different degrees, that allows a character to turn an otherwise solid hit into a miss.

A character using a second wind to regain hit points using their healing surges isn't suddenly going from being torn to pieces to being magically all better. Just as the name implies, he's getting his second wind, re-energizing himself and now ready to come back for more. A character resting after battle is relaxing a bit so that when the next fight rolls around, he'll be in the right frame of mind, and be ready for it.

When a character runs out of healing surges, that's their inner reserves being as drained as they are. That fight was all they can take without more than a few minutes of rest. They need to hole up somewhere and get a good nights rest before they're able to press on with the same level of readiness they normally have. They are too fatigued, mentally and physically, to go on.


I do not use the "Token" and "Surge" statement in my game. However, I explained it to a different group via e-mail and they got confused. I keep it called "Healing Surges" and the Action is to take a "Healing Surge" in actual play though. It is just in text saying "Use 4 Healing Surges to take a Healing Surge" can be difficult to explain. Clunky to read was preferable to confusing.


Fair enough. I'd recommend something like "You spend a number of healing surges equal to N+1 to gain hit points equal to your healing surge value."

It gets the same point across and eliminates the awkward token verbiage.


I have gone back and forward on 1/2 Con or Full Con. I found that characters that stacked Con (In my games, the most average constitution score is 16) get a far and away bonus. IE, a DFA with 22 constitution gets an extra 6. I decided on half but obviously more works. That's the advantage of homebrew: It's all liquid!


Well without Enhancement bonuses, 22 is close to the highest stat anyone is going to get (I assume if you're banning enhancement bonuses, unusual high LA races, template stacking, inherent bonuses, and other similar methods of gaining really high stats are also out?), and doing so comes at a severe price to their offense for most of them. I see no problem with someone who has invested that much getting the full bonus of it. The more important thing is letting the guys with 12-16 (the more normal range of attributes) get the full benefit of their stat.


I reward Healing Surges for character advancement, solid roleplay (IE, sticking in character and being able to justify why you would simply not do this despite metagame), or as just a reward. "You gain 2,000 gold" just does not get as much of a response as "you all gain a permanent Healing Surge."

I actually really like this idea. I'm not sure how to justify it flavorwise, but players gaining more healing surges through play as treasure is definitely cool.


Once per day, I let a Healing Surge action counts as a Lesser Restoration. The super awesome l33t sauce fighter should not be destroyed because he ate some bad berries and is away from town.

Any particular reason for only once per day? Seems like if you're going to allow it, may as well allow it always so running into some enemy with attribute damage only lays the party up for a day or so instead of a week or so.


My campaigns have been tough. Really, really tough. I wanted a method to have each player care for their own safety and was unhappy when someone said "Well, I guess I will do the Healer this time." It has added a new level of play.

I agree wholeheartedly with this mindset. I say this as the guy who usually gets roped into playing the healer at low levels until we can start affording wands.



Does not work. A Sorcadin would get more Healing Surges than a Duskblade despite the fact that they do the same job. A Wizard 1 / Binder 1 / Anima Mage X would have drastically more Surges than a Wizard despite only losing 1 Wizard level for free Metamagic. I generally just look to what role the character is going to preform and adjust from there.
YES, I desperately need a fairer system for this.

Well the Sorcadin also has heavier armor access than the Duskblade despite doing the same job. That's the nature of proficiencies.

The only other remotely balanced possibility I can think of is the characters gaining healing surges as they level, so it can work like Save/BAB progression. So the weaker classes don't gain as many surges on level up. It makes the first class you take a level in important, but it already is for Skills, so that's not too big a deal (unless you have one class with great skills and max surges, in which case it's a potential problem).

eftexar
2012-06-09, 12:54 AM
I second Vilphich's ideas. Removing healing entirely sort of removes half of what being a cleric about. Not that cleric's don't need nerfed but...

I definitely don't like the tokens. Why add in an abstract system, especially with no real flavor behind it existing, if you can't do other things with them like gaining minor bonuses or recovering from status effects?

As far as your description of hit points, seerow, that seems to be the most commonly accepted explanation, but I rather like an anime representation of hit points (have you seen bleach with characters coughing up half their organs, or other shows where half their body is missing). Much more cinematic.

Gamer Girl
2012-06-09, 08:35 AM
The point of healing surges isn't to make characters immortal. In fact, if you read the OP, in exchange for introducing healing surges, he removed basically all magical healing from the game. So characters can't just buy a wand of lesser vigor and restore to full hp after every fight anymore.

Healing Surges aren't about immortality, they represent the inner reserves a person has. The first and most important thing to realize is that Hit Points are not damage. A character who takes a 20 hit point damage hit does not in fact have a giant gaping gut wound, despite that being twice what is necessary to kill your average commoner. Hit Points represent luck, morale, stamina, and skill to different degrees, that allows a character to turn an otherwise solid hit into a miss.

A character using a second wind to regain hit points using their healing surges isn't suddenly going from being torn to pieces to being magically all better. Just as the name implies, he's getting his second wind, re-energizing himself and now ready to come back for more. A character resting after battle is relaxing a bit so that when the next fight rolls around, he'll be in the right frame of mind, and be ready for it.

When a character runs out of healing surges, that's their inner reserves being as drained as they are. That fight was all they can take without more than a few minutes of rest. They need to hole up somewhere and get a good nights rest before they're able to press on with the same level of readiness they normally have. They are too fatigued, mentally and physically, to go on.


Everything you say is all about character immortality, not 'second chance, second winds'. The seconds stuff is just smoke and mirrors. Healing surges are about keeping a character alive...period. It's just a way for a character to take damage in the game and 'pretend' they are hurt and wounded...as if that meant something.

Though it's not just healing surges, but the way most groups do healing in general. They like to do the endless circle of massive damage and then massive heals. But it just seems like a lot of work. Taking 322 damage and then healing 304 damage and then taking 244 damage and healing 266 damage.

It would just be simpler to have each character have like 10 hit points, but only take one point of damage a hit....

Mangles
2012-06-09, 09:34 AM
It would just be simpler to have each character have like 10 hit points, but only take one point of damage a hit....

It would be much simpler. But that's not D&D, and simplicity is not always a good thing.


I am on the fence about the healing surges idea. I can see how it could be good in a campaign, but am always more wary of homebrew than accepting until I've seen it work.

Seerow
2012-06-09, 09:52 AM
Everything you say is all about character immortality, not 'second chance, second winds'. The seconds stuff is just smoke and mirrors. Healing surges are about keeping a character alive...period. It's just a way for a character to take damage in the game and 'pretend' they are hurt and wounded...as if that meant something.

Though it's not just healing surges, but the way most groups do healing in general. They like to do the endless circle of massive damage and then massive heals. But it just seems like a lot of work. Taking 322 damage and then healing 304 damage and then taking 244 damage and healing 266 damage.

It would just be simpler to have each character have like 10 hit points, but only take one point of damage a hit....

It sounds like your problem is hit points, not healing surges.

Siosilvar
2012-06-09, 03:54 PM
I second Vilphich's ideas. Removing healing entirely sort of removes half of what being a cleric about. Not that cleric's don't need nerfed but...

Removing healing is actually a buff for the cleric. Think about it: they don't have to waste time keeping everybody else alive with their piddly little d8s of healing (which will generally only give one solid hit's worth of HP back at most), and they can focus on using Flamestrikes and buff spells to actually defeat the enemies.

EDIT:


Everything you say is all about character immortality, not 'second chance, second winds'. The seconds stuff is just smoke and mirrors. Healing surges are about keeping a character alive...period. It's just a way for a character to take damage in the game and 'pretend' they are hurt and wounded...as if that meant something.

Hit points are how much damage you can take at once (in one fight) without dying. Healing surges are how long you can keep going, since you'll use them up as the day goes on, and it's more efficient to spread them out rather than use them all at once.

Yes, it's about keeping a character alive. It's also about keeping a threat around at the beginning of a day, because just inflating HP removes all threat until the last encounter. If you add surges or healing spells or whatever else, the characters can keep on going even though they're constantly in threat of death/failure.

As an incredibly simplified example, compare a 10 HP character to a character with 4 HP and six points of healing. Every encounter does 1d4 damage to them. Both have 10 hit points available to them, but the one with 4 HP is always at risk of dying in every encounter, but the 10 HP character doesn't have any chance of dying at all until the third encounter, even if both d4 rolls come up 4. You could even give the 4 HP character the ability to start at full hit points every fight, and they'd both last 4 encounters on average.

So no, it's not about immortality. It's about drama, challenge, and threat of defeat.

Salbazier
2012-06-09, 04:39 PM
Everything you say is all about character immortality, not 'second chance, second winds'. The seconds stuff is just smoke and mirrors. Healing surges are about keeping a character alive...period. It's just a way for a character to take damage in the game and 'pretend' they are hurt and wounded...as if that meant something.

Though it's not just healing surges, but the way most groups do healing in general. They like to do the endless circle of massive damage and then massive heals. But it just seems like a lot of work. Taking 322 damage and then healing 304 damage and then taking 244 damage and healing 266 damage.

It would just be simpler to have each character have like 10 hit points, but only take one point of damage a hit....

May as well go with 'one hit = you die' then. We may also ask: what the point of having AC and BAB that rise so high? What's the point of all this level up to twenty and epic and beyond and bajillion of all various kind of points from EXP, GP, Spell levels, slots and whatever?


Anyway, its not just about survival ('immortality' if you want to) but also about tactics. There's a trade off between spending actions and resource to heal or to attack/buff/control. It give option and additional depth to combat. With OP's system even more so since there's additional choices to make: -'Play safe=spend surge as move action but risk losing out momentum in combat' or 'play risky= spend surge as Immd. act. but risk HP gets too low and die before you can heal'
-'play short term= spend surge often even if cost a lot but risk running out of it too fast' or 'play long term=spend surge sparingly but risk HP getting too low often"

If actual immortality are the desired result then OP would give cost-free-thinking-free regeneration instead of Healing surges with cost that require, or rather, encourage a bit thinking to use effectively.

OK, that said. Nice job, Azernak0. The system does look fun. My only gripe: under this system I would not be able to play a healer/doctor-type character! (yes, some people actually don't mind, even fond of, being a healbot)

Seerow
2012-06-10, 12:44 AM
OK, that said. Nice job, Azernak0. The system does look fun. My only gripe: under this system I would not be able to play a healer/doctor-type character! (yes, some people actually don't mind, even fond of, being a healbot)


I don't think such a thing is impossible. Clearly not within the intention of the OP, but I could easily see the system adapted to allow for a healer class, even a mundane doctor if that's really your thing.

Give daily limited use abilities like "here have an extra healing surge", and encounter limited use abilities like "Reduce the number of healing surges necessary to recover hit points". Throw in some bonus healing from surges used during downtime, and the ability to let characters trigger surges with your actions instead of their own, and you have a useful/interesting healer.

Yitzi
2012-06-10, 10:57 AM
YES, I desperately need a fairer system for this.

Here's an idea (though it might make things a bit complicated): You get a number of healing charges equal to the highest-value class you have, but the "extras" (you choose which ones those are) only heal proportionally to the levels of the appropriate classes.

So for instance a Fighter 5/Druid 1/Wizard 3 with +2 CON modifier has (assuming it alternates between average-rounded-down and average-rounded-up) 42 hit points from his fighter levels, 6 hit points from his druid level, and 20 hit points from his wizard levels. Therefore, he gets 8+1=9 healing tokens, but only 4+1=5 are full heals (healing a full 17 hit points), 2 are medium heals (healing (42+6)/4=12 hit points), and 2 are minor heals (healing only 42/4=10 hit points). If he spends different types of tokens on a single heal, it uses the weakest value.

Azernak0
2012-06-10, 11:32 AM
The first and most important thing to realize is that Hit Points are not damage. A character who takes a 20 hit point damage hit does not in fact have a giant gaping gut wound, despite that being twice what is necessary to kill your average commoner. Hit Points represent luck, morale, stamina, and skill to different degrees, that allows a character to turn an otherwise solid hit into a miss.


Exactly. 100% this. Thus why a Fighter has more HP than a Wizard bookworm despite both being mortals



A character using a second wind to regain hit points using their healing surges isn't suddenly going from being torn to pieces to being magically all better. Just as the name implies, he's getting his second wind, re-energizing himself and now ready to come back for more. A character resting after battle is relaxing a bit so that when the next fight rolls around, he'll be in the right frame of mind, and be ready for it.

This again. Yes.

I remember seeing a boxing match when I was a kid. Like 7 rounds in, one guy just looked dead. The commentators were saying "this is it, the trainers will call it" during the 30 second break. The guy gets up and it is clear he can barely stand. The other guy isn't looking great but he looks like a stiff wind will knock him over. Fight starts, he gets a blow to the stomach and I think he got REALLY pissed off. He lands a powerful body blow and a quick head jab to the other guy, who drops. Fights over and the victor isn't even able to stand without his coach's assistance.

That's what the system is to me.

The reason for only a single Lesser Restoration per day is because I do not throw that stuff at the party very often (well, at least if I do it is the last fight of the day). Wands, scrolls, and the like still exists as spells. It was mostly for the odd stuff; failure to notice the needle trap, rolling a 1 against a Fleshraker poison, etc. It was not meant to carry you through completely. If I ever ran a game where there was flat out no Cleric or Druid, I would probably increase the number of times they could do it. Probably something like "1/2 natural constitution modifier times per day" or full natural constitution but still needing medicine or magic to cure the full poison but it would be a more RP thing. "Grin and bear it" only works so far when it comes to tetanus.

I have thought about the "I like playing pure support" problem. As it is, the only support involves making people better at killing or making the enemies worse at killing. I have thought about adding the Cure Line back into the game as a Temporary HP thing that goes away REALLY fast. Like maybe losing 1/3 of it's total HP a round. The problem is, it can get out of hand, is basically impossible with "Heal", and temp HP is so damn godly as it is.

I have let people use the Aid Another to heal but never that often and never out of combat. Half because I didn't want to Sorcerer who was never hit to be a battery for Healing and because it does not make sense:

Fighter: "I am exhausted. That fight wore me the hell out..."
Rogue: "I am not tired of all. I will help you rest."
DM: "No, no, no. This is NOT Grand Theft Auto."

@Yitzi:
Too complicated for my tastes. Also, I can see it being really unfair; you will have a situation where you have to use all "full" healing surges and have to use 1 "small" because of N score. In this case because of 1 bad apple, the bunch is thrown out.

Amechra
2012-06-10, 01:38 PM
Well, if you want to do pure support...

The Cure Line allows the target creature to use a Healing Surge without taking an action (extremely nice, when you get down to it), treating it like they were using it as a Move Action; higher level Cures add to the damage the target creature heals, and all that fun stuff.

Also, I was thinking of how much HP gets healed, and I thought of this quick solution:

A Healing Surge heals 1.5*your HD hit points when used.
For every d4 hit die you have, that amount is reduced by 1
For every d6 hit die you have, that amount is reduced by 1/2
For every d10 hit die you have, that amount is increased by 1/2
For every d12 hit die you have, that amount is increased by 1

So a Barbarian 20 heals 50 HP with a healing surge, and a Wizard 20 heals 10 HP; Each step up the Cure X Wounds line adds the Cleric's Wisdom Modifier to the amount healed (So a Cure Light Wounds spell on a 20th level Barbarian, cast by a Cleric with 20 Wis, would heal 55 HP; a Cure Critical Wounds, on the other hand, would heal them a good 70 HP, and would probably give some sort of fun benefit, like automatically including the effects of a Healing Lorecall spell.)

The Heal spell could just, I don't know, make the Healing Surge 3 times as efficient? So the Barbarian in the above example would heal 150 HP?

Amechra
2012-06-10, 01:53 PM
The forum did it, I swear!

Ziegander
2012-06-10, 02:58 PM
To borrow mechanics from 4e, 5e, and then retrofit them together with this idea, how about this:

A character can Surge a number of times per day equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier. When a character Surges, it spends a number of Hit Dice, up to its total HD, and heals the corresponding value.

For example, a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3/Eldritch Knight 5 with a Constitution score of 18 has 10 Hit Dice (2d10, 3d4, and 5d6) and is able to Surge five times per day. Whenever he surges, he can spend any of his Hit Dice, to heal the corresponding amount. In one Surge, let's say that he spends 3d4 and 1d10 of his total Hit Dice, and heals 16 hit points. He has 1d10 and 5d6 Hit Dice and four Surges remaining for the day.

It's not perfect, but it does handle multiclassing very well.

A character with higher Constitution doesn't get "more" healing, but is able to space it out much better than a character with a lower Constitution, and thus reduce the danger hit point damage poses. Still doesn't seem quite right, but something could probably be tweaked to grant higher Con characters a bit more oomph from their Surges than normal.

Maybe when a character Surges, they heal X Hit Dice + Con modifier worth of hit point damage. So a 10th level character with 1 Surge/day can heal 10 HD worth of hit point damage just once per day, but a 10th level character with 5 Surges/day (Con 18) heals up to 10 HD + 20 hit points per day.

Seerow
2012-06-10, 11:58 PM
To borrow mechanics from 4e, 5e, and then retrofit them together with this idea, how about this:

A character can Surge a number of times per day equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier. When a character Surges, it spends a number of Hit Dice, up to its total HD, and heals the corresponding value.

Is it just me, or did you take the already terrible 5e hit dice system, and somehow make it -even worse-? I mean in 5e they at least get to add their con mod to each hit die, and even there it STILL sucks because of how random and how little the healing is.

Ziegander
2012-06-11, 05:19 PM
Is it just me, or did you take the already terrible 5e hit dice system, and somehow make it -even worse-? I mean in 5e they at least get to add their con mod to each hit die, and even there it STILL sucks because of how random and how little the healing is.

Y'know, like I said it wasn't perfect, but do point out how much it sucks without offering anything constructive either for the OP or about my idea.

Seerow
2012-06-12, 12:16 AM
Y'know, like I said it wasn't perfect, but do point out how much it sucks without offering anything constructive either for the OP or about my idea.


I gave plenty of constructive criticism/feedback to the OP in earlier posts. I really like the premise of this topic, and like what's going on here.


I just wanted to make sure it was clear how terrible your idea was before someone decided to try to run with it before thinking it through. I honestly wouldn't have thought it was worth doing... except I would have thought the same about the 5e hit dice mechanic, and yet you, an experienced homebrewer, thought it was good enough that you should nerf it some more and present it as a good idea. So of course I'm going to take the time to say "That's a really bad idea", because if you can make a mistake like that, what's to say what others who see it might take away from it?

Siosilvar
2012-06-12, 03:19 PM
I just wanted to make sure it was clear how terrible your idea was before someone decided to try to run with it before thinking it through. I honestly wouldn't have thought it was worth doing... except I would have thought the same about the 5e hit dice mechanic, and yet you, an experienced homebrewer, thought it was good enough that you should nerf it some more and present it as a good idea. So of course I'm going to take the time to say "That's a really bad idea", because if you can make a mistake like that, what's to say what others who see it might take away from it?

How about the fact that it's pretty clever? It's not an unsalvageable idea, and it's definitely not enough healing to replace the spells as it stands, but with a bit more work it could be.

I think it'd be fine if the 1 + Con mod was kept, but each surge heals your full hit dice (no Con modifier added, which sucks for high-Con characters, but they get more surges anyway). I might also add another surge for every 20 sides of hit dice (or maybe just 2 points of BAB) you have: for example, a fighter would get one more every other level.

Seerow
2012-06-12, 04:54 PM
How about the fact that it's pretty clever? It's not an unsalvageable idea, and it's definitely not enough healing to replace the spells as it stands, but with a bit more work it could be.

I think it'd be fine if the 1 + Con mod was kept, but each surge heals your full hit dice (no Con modifier added, which sucks for high-Con characters, but they get more surges anyway). I might also add another surge for every 20 sides of hit dice (or maybe just 2 points of BAB) you have: for example, a fighter would get one more every other level.

But now you're talking about something totally different from the hit dice mechanic (since you're not spending hit dice, you're rolling all of them each time), so isn't relevant to me pointing out "taking hit dice, removing con mod per hit die, and limiting how you can split up spending hit dice, is just taking a bad mechanic and making it worse"


And honestly even with your change, I'm hard pressed to think of any way in which it is actually better than the OP's system, given it seems like doing the same thing only with random hp gain when spending a surge, and fewer surges per day.

Siosilvar
2012-06-12, 08:59 PM
And honestly even with your change, I'm hard pressed to think of any way in which it is actually better than the OP's system, given it seems like doing the same thing only with random hp gain when spending a surge, and fewer surges per day.

It's not supposed to be. That took me five minutes to think of, tops.

Azernak0
2012-06-15, 10:13 AM
Thanks for all of the advice and encouragement. I really appreciate it. Clearly, it is still a work in progress.

Things to consider:
Full base Constitution in place of 1/2 rounded up. It only equates to an extra surge for most people though but an extra 3 for those that pump it.

Look into a system for multiclassing. I think I might just stick with "what role is your character going to do" with Big Stupid Fighter (Warblade, Crusader, Fighter, Barbarian) being 8, Fighter types that get spells (Rangers, Paladins, Duskblades, Psychic Warriors) being 7, Specialists (Monks, Swordsages, Druids, Clerics) being 6, and full on squishies getting 4. I have just been asking players won't kind of role their build is likely to be and giving them that number of surges at the start. However, this requires honest players and careful thinking. Fighter 1 / Wizard 9 is not meant to be a Duskblade type character. I have thought about just saying X HP dice gets Y (IE, d10 or d12 per level HP gets 8) and averaging it out but I do not think that a Cleric and Druid should get as much as a a Monk or Psychic Warrior. I also can't just have it work like Armor Proficiency because everyone and their brother would go BSF 1 / X 19 in order to get all those juicy Surges. This is not easy to fix from my perspective, sadly.

Amechra
2012-06-15, 11:32 AM
Well, if you want to do pure support...

The Cure Line allows the target creature to use a Healing Surge without taking an action (extremely nice, when you get down to it), treating it like they were using it as a Move Action; higher level Cures add to the damage the target creature heals, and all that fun stuff.

Also, I was thinking of how much HP gets healed, and I thought of this quick solution:

A Healing Surge heals 1.5*your HD hit points when used.
For every d4 hit die you have, that amount is reduced by 1
For every d6 hit die you have, that amount is reduced by 1/2
For every d10 hit die you have, that amount is increased by 1/2
For every d12 hit die you have, that amount is increased by 1

So a Barbarian 20 heals 50 HP with a healing surge, and a Wizard 20 heals 10 HP; Each step up the Cure X Wounds line adds the Cleric's Wisdom Modifier to the amount healed (So a Cure Light Wounds spell on a 20th level Barbarian, cast by a Cleric with 20 Wis, would heal 55 HP; a Cure Critical Wounds, on the other hand, would heal them a good 70 HP, and would probably give some sort of fun benefit, like automatically including the effects of a Healing Lorecall spell.)

The Heal spell could just, I don't know, make the Healing Surge 3 times as efficient? So the Barbarian in the above example would heal 150 HP?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey, hey, look at what I have here!

What do you think?

Azernak0
2012-06-18, 11:19 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey, hey, look at what I have here!

What do you think?

Were you referring to all Healing Surges or just from the Cure line?

If it all Healing Surges, I think I would just keep with 1/4 because it is actually fairly close but lets player luck mean something. IE, let's take the Barbarian 20 with 20 Con and taking totally average HP. He has 210 HP. 1/4 is 52.5, your version is 50. However, let's say that the player rolled better than average (let's say 8 across the board) and has 22 Con. That's 280 and 70. If you run with people that just max HP (most of the people I play with generally do this), you really start to limit the HP. That system would heal 2.5 HP per d12, regardless of Con, while the player would be getting at minimum 3 per d12. 16 Con puts it at 3.75 per HD.

For d4 users, it is even harsher. 2.5 / 4 = .625 + Con per HD for each Healing Surge used compared to .5 per HD for each Surge. Say 16 Con, average roll; a d4 user has 110. Healing 10 is ~9% of their life compared to 25% from the other version. Max HP and say 20 Con, the d4 dude has 180 HP. ~5.5% of a heal vs 25% totaling 45.

If it is only for the Cure Line of spells, I could see it working. The problem I have for having the Cure line is that I do not like the concept of having them when I specifically made the system in order to avoid it. I think I might do it as such:

Azernak0's Lesser Vigor (keeping in lines of HP being how tired you are. When you lose all your HP, you actually get the mortal wounds)
Classes: Healing 1, Cleric 1, Druid 1, Paladin 1, (IE, anyone that gets Cure Light Wounds)
Effect: The next Healing Surge action that the target makes is reduced by 1 cost. This effect cannot reduce the Healing Surge's cost to less than 1.


Azernak0's Vigor:
Classes: Healing 2, Cleric 2, Paladin 2, Druid 3.
Effect: The next Healing Surge action that the target makes is reduced by 2 cost. This effect cannot reduce the Healing Surge's cost to less than 1.
Special: No single target may have a Vigor spell cast on them more than once in a combat. Out of combat, time sensitive situations do not qualify for this rule.

Azernak0's Lesser Rejuvenation
Classes: Healing 1, Cleric 1, Druid 1, Paladin 1,
Effect: The next Healing Surge utilized by the target does not add to the N score. The character must still obey the total cost. Since this magical effect is a direct boon to a creature's soul, undead and other soulless creatures do not qualify.
Special: Due to the limitations of using magic on a soul, no creature can be a target a Rejuvenation effect more than once a minute.

Azernak0's Rejuvenation
Classes: Healing 3, Cleric 3, Druid 4, Paladin 2
Effect: The next Healing Surge utilized by the target does not add to the N score, nor does the N score effect the cost of the Surge. The character must still obey the base cost of a Surge (1 for Move Action and 2 for Immediate Action). Since this magical effect is a direct boon to a creature's soul, undead and other soulless creatures do not qualify.
Special: Due to the limitations of using magic on a soul, no creature can be a target a Rejuvenation effect more than once a minute.

I would likely put a "Once per Encounter" rule on Lesser Vigor and Vigor for each character, allowing them to stack with each other but not themselves. IE, one Lesser Vigor and one Vigor per customer per combat. Also gets rid of the free out of combat healing potential, which is why I was leery about any healing.

Amechra
2012-06-18, 01:49 PM
Those work; I was actually just porting how 4e does it back into 3.5e, in the case of Healing.

But, yeah... spells and skill tricks that give other people benefits when they use a Healing Surge (so that they are working with your body to patch you up, as it were)would be lovely.

Because I could totally see a feat like:

Superior Healer
You've studied for years, and so can help a person's heal themselves.
Prerequisites: Heal 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain a new use for the Heal skill; you may make a Heal check against a DC of 15 to aid someone's body in healing themselves.

If you succeed on the check, the next time they heal themselves they add your Wisdom modifier to the amount of damage healed, plus one additional point of damage for every (5/10 pick one) points that you exceed the DC.

137ben
2012-06-18, 05:19 PM
Everything you say is all about character immortality, not 'second chance, second winds'. The seconds stuff is just smoke and mirrors. Healing surges are about keeping a character alive...period. It's just a way for a character to take damage in the game and 'pretend' they are hurt and wounded...as if that meant something.

Though it's not just healing surges, but the way most groups do healing in general. They like to do the endless circle of massive damage and then massive heals. But it just seems like a lot of work. Taking 322 damage and then healing 304 damage and then taking 244 damage and healing 266 damage.

It would just be simpler to have each character have like 10 hit points, but only take one point of damage a hit....
That's not an issue with healing, it's an issue with HP inflation that came around as a result of videogames where dealing 32094 HP wasn't a problem to keep track of. I've played in games where everyone has 5 hp. There is still healing, you just only heal 1-2 hp per spell. I actually like that more, since arbitrarily high hit-point totals are annoying. But being able to heal doesn't change that, it just adds an extra option. I'm also not quite sure where you are getting this "character immortality" stuff from. If you take a look at the OP's post, if that warblade heals himself 3 times in one encounter, he is done for the day. You seem to be suggesting that combat goes on and on with players healing a tiny bit less than what they took each round...
Given that this removes all other healing options in the game, it makes healing a lot harder that it is by RAW.
Oh, and if healing is automatic immortality, what do you do when you run out of healing? Oh, or I guess a monster could do more damage than you recover in a turn, so...?

DiBastet
2012-06-19, 01:25 AM
So, the forum monster ate my reply, so I'm going to try it again now...

I've tweaked your idea and introduced it in place of my wonky mundane healing option. You need to know that in my games I use a mana based spellcasting that recharges itself slowly, so you usually have unlimited spells by day, but you can't cast them in rapid sucession, and every other limited ability, like rage, bard music, or even PP, recovers itself after 3 encounters, each one independently. I've introduced the system as follows.

Every character has a Healing Threshold that he notes down on his sheet. The Healing Threshold is equal to 1/4 the character's max HP.

Every character has a number of Healing Surges per day, equal to 8+con to full bab, 6+con to 3/4 bab, and 4+con to half bab. A character can spend a healing surge as a move action to heal a healing threshold. He can spend two healing surges as an immediate action to heal himself a healing threshold. Healing Surges do not recover after 3 encountes, only with an extended rest. Once per day, a character can spend a healing surge to heal itself CON points of ability damage, in any score or combination of scores he chooses.

A character must be conscious to use a healing surge. Anyone can use a stardard action to apply First Aid to an unconscious ally. The character must succed on a DC 15 Heal check, and if sucessfull, his target may spend a healing surge as a non-action to heal itself a healing threshold.

that's the basic of the system, but this system works into two options in the game: Mundane healing and magic healing:

Mundane Healing: There's a feat called Extraordinary Healer in my games. Among othe abilities, such as being able to brew medicine that atempts to heal poison, disease, sickness, etc, and being useful to remove negative conditions without magic; with this system, this feat allows some different options when using First Aid.

- The healer may apply First Aid to a character that is awake.
- Whenever he applies First Aid, the healer can choose to spend his target's healing surge or one of his own.
- Whenever the applies First Aid, the target heals an addition of 1 hp / rank in Heal that the healer has.
- The healer may cure ability damage more than once per day on his patients.
- With 5 ranks in Heal, the healer can also heal ability drain.
- With 8 ranks in Heal, the healer may heal even someone that is behind the -10 hp limit, but only if this is the first turn after the victim fell. This limit increases by +1 / 4 ranks after 8.


Magic Healing: Cure Light Wounds is a first level spell that allows the touched target to spend a healing surge (again as a non-action) to heal his healing threshold + CL. Cure Serious Wounds is a third level spell, but the target heals 2x his healing threshold + CL. Heal is a fifth level spell that heals 4x the healing threshold (full hp). There's a version of each spell one level higher that allows healing at short range, and a version of each spell four levels higher that allows mass versions of the spell.

The magical healing is potent, but casting a high-level spell is very costy to characters with my subsystem.

Healing magic doesn't have the option of using your own healing surges to heal the target, so it creates the instance that I particularly enjoy, of "he is beyond magic healing" (of course, there will be a spell that will allow you to spend your healing surge, but you will take damage equal to what you heal).

However, healing magic allows you to heal even a person beyond the -10 limit, if it's applied on the following level after his death. However, if the target was beyond the -10 limit, he can only heal up to -1 (and stable) with a single casting of a healing spell, while the mundane healing has no such limit.


The players really, really enjoyed this system! I can only thank you for proposing the basis for my system.

Azernak0
2012-06-19, 11:09 AM
The players really, really enjoyed this system! I can only thank you for proposing the basis for my system.

No problem! Glad my little idea could be of use in another campaign.

With your resetting abilities, obviously you are going for a game that is less "endurance based", for lack of a better term. Stuff resets, so you don't have to worry too much about blowing your once per day thing because it will just reset. Interesting idea.

Maybe this is a moot question because of ^, but how does the lack of N Score worked? The reason I added it was because I wanted fights that were supposed to be difficult to be nerve racking. My concern with having no N Score (at least in my games) is that a tough fight would have to be more prolonged in order to make it difficult. With an N Score, I can give a guess that everyone is going to have 150% of their HP available and I can make my fights around dealing about that much. It just falls on them to beat the monsters before they flop. :smalltongue:

I am curious how it would work sans N Score.

Amechra
2012-06-19, 12:06 PM
Without N score... there's always Vile Damage.

They can't heal it until they get to a sanctified area... Thus allowing for some nerve-wracking moments as the "unhealable festering wounds" build up.

DAMN IT! Typing that made me want to play a X-Crawl game with Healing Surges. Damn it.

DiBastet
2012-06-19, 02:33 PM
As far as my players are concerned, usually they don't have three or four fights in single day, my campaigns are usually different from that. However, they understand that they may have to fight many many more fights per day.

That's why they dont burn they abilities just because they will rechage; they can use when needed, but they should not burn.

But in any case, if it was another group I would siimply add: "Each time you use a healing surge after the first in the same encounter, increase by one the number of healing surges you must spend".