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View Full Version : Batman comics post New 52? take 2



leafman
2012-06-13, 01:25 PM
What are Batman comics like now that the New 52 reboot has had time to settle in? I know there are or were 4 Batman titles running (Detective Comics, Batman, Batman and Robin, and Batman: The Dark Knight), are any of them any good?
I'm looking for a current on-going that shows Batman as more of a street level super hero akin to Spider-Man. I'm not really a fan of Batman fighting Superman level threats and winning all the time. Are any of the Batman titles like that?

ThePhantasm
2012-06-13, 02:47 PM
I'm not too happy with it so far. This sums up some reasons why (http://batman-news.com/2012/06/07/the-old-rogues-gallery-in-the-new-52/) pretty well I think.

(EDIT: Erm, I should add: SPOILER ALERT. Not that there's anything spectacular to be spoiled IMHO.)

Traab
2012-06-13, 03:59 PM
I have to admit, I agree with that article a lot. I mean, thats always been a big thing in dc comics from what I recall, not just in batman, but most of the dc universe, the bad guys have real stories, and motivations, and there are a number of them that are actually sympathetic to the readers. Now batman has a large supply of mad dog killers with different themes and little else to work with.

Wolf_Haley
2012-06-13, 04:03 PM
It's a mixed bag, the comics that are good are really good and the bad ones are really bad. Freeze and Penguin have come out aces in New 52.

THough
I wish they had let Nora die instead of keeping her forzen, would have given Freeze more reason to go over the deep end

Traab
2012-06-13, 07:01 PM
It's a mixed bag, the comics that are good are really good and the bad ones are really bad. Freeze and Penguin have come out aces in New 52.

THough
I wish they had let Nora die instead of keeping her frozen, would have given Freeze more reason to go over the deep end

I dunno keeping her alive but out of his reach might drive him even more insane in a different way.

industrious
2012-06-14, 06:37 PM
They removed the more mature, mentor-like members of the Bat-family (Oracle, Grayson!Batman) in favor of younger, "hipper" versions, and took out Stephanie Brown.

I am not happy.

ThePhantasm
2012-06-14, 07:46 PM
Anyone else read Batman #10 yet? I hated the "plot twist." Hoping it is a fake out and not a new part of continuity.

leafman
2012-06-14, 09:26 PM
Sounds like I should continue to "vote with my wallet" as Mattel (current license holder for DC mass retail toys) says.

Dienekes
2012-06-14, 09:29 PM
Anyone else read Batman #10 yet? I hated the "plot twist." Hoping it is a fake out and not a new part of continuity.

You mind posting it in spoilers for me? I'm curious.

Anyway, yeah read the first few and was disappointed enough to drop. It's not like I don't have years worth of good Bat comics I still need to read through.

They took away the Jokers face. How do you do that? Next he won't even laugh.

ThePhantasm
2012-06-15, 05:44 AM
You mind posting it in spoilers for me? I'm curious.

The identity of the Owlman behind the whole Court of Owls thing is Thomas Wayne Jr., Bruce Wayne's brother (!). That's right, somehow Bruce has a brother that his parents never told him about. Apparently some sort of accident maimed him as a child and he was sent to a special children's hospital. The idea that Bruce would have never been taken to visit him, or that Thomas would not have been mentioned in the Wayne family will, or that an accident involving the child of one of the richest families in Gotham would not have been highly publicized, is absurd. This is meant to be a shock to us and to Bruce but really it is nonsensical and stupid, and undermines the fact that the Waynes were loving parents who would never hide a brother from Bruce. I'll just end that rant there though I could probably say more.

Kyberwulf
2012-06-23, 07:25 PM
Man this is why I stopped reading comic..er.. Graphic Novels, and went straight to the source material.... Soaps. Same stories and plot twists, none of the pretensticious... lol

ThePhantasm
2012-06-24, 11:23 AM
none of the pretensticious... lol

None of the... what? I'm thinking you meant "pretentious," but that's an adjective not a noun. I can't really work out what you mean here.

Devonix
2012-06-24, 12:25 PM
As for the development in 52 it's strange yeah but it isn't something new.

They're just bringing back a character that used to exist pre-crisis. An established part of Batman's history that was retconned out, they just retconned back in.

It's the same thing they did with Damien Wayne with making Son of the Demon cannon again.

Buwh
2012-06-24, 12:50 PM
What a mess.

Devonix
2012-06-24, 01:39 PM
Heh 52 is an utter mess but this isn't why.

Real reason it is a mess is that there is no proper timeline. All of the books seem to be taking place in seperate universes or at least years apart from each other.

Devonix
2012-06-24, 01:41 PM
In Green Lantern comics Brightest Day happened. the Sinestro Corps War happened on Earth and lots of other stuff.


No other books acknowledge this.


Same for Barbara getting shot, Damien being born. and everything that happened in old Batman comics that aren't referenced in other books when they should be.

It's a Mess.

Rake21
2012-06-24, 05:01 PM
The identity of the Owlman behind the whole Court of Owls thing is Thomas Wayne Jr., Bruce Wayne's brother (!). That's right, somehow Bruce has a brother that his parents never told him about. Apparently some sort of accident maimed him as a child and he was sent to a special children's hospital. The idea that Bruce would have never been taken to visit him, or that Thomas would not have been mentioned in the Wayne family will, or that an accident involving the child of one of the richest families in Gotham would not have been highly publicized, is absurd. This is meant to be a shock to us and to Bruce but really it is nonsensical and stupid, and undermines the fact that the Waynes were loving parents who would never hide a brother from Bruce. I'll just end that rant there though I could probably say more.

I think Snyder explained it as:
The "accident was caused by the Court of Owls. The Waynes hid the birth of their other son to protect him from the Talons. They buried the secret under a ton of money and funded the hospital inorder to ensure that Thamas Jr. was taken care of.
Not sure if I like it, but it is a half-way decent explanation and Snyder did hide clues throughout the story.

As for the Bat-books, it's a mixed bag.

Batman: Snyder knows how to write the charecter. I'd say it's my favorite book of the new launch (tied with Animal Man). Though, as this thread has pointed out, some folks aren't too keen on the Court of Owls story.

Batman and Robin: This one has been hit or miss. The first few issues weren't that great, but it picked up at the end of the arc. I'm interested to see where it goes.

Detective Comics: Not really a big fan of it, myself. The first issue was decent, but the later issues fell apart.

Batgirl: I miss Cass and Steph (who is really under rated). However, Gail Simone's Barbra Gordan is a strong charecter, and the stories are good. It's an enjoyable read.

Batwing: Haven't read it, but I've heard good things.

Nightwing: Haven't read or heard anything.

Batman Inc.: Did you like the original? Then I don't see a reason not to pick this one up. Though, I hope we get to see Steph and Cass back in the game.

Faulty
2012-06-24, 06:29 PM
If the conversation is at all Bat-family, then Batgirl and Batwoman are my favorite of the 52, so I can suggest those, at least.

Wolf_Haley
2012-06-25, 10:57 AM
All this hoohah is worth it though for the new 52 Wonder Woman, so good :smallbiggrin:

Cen
2012-06-25, 11:07 AM
The identity of the Owlman behind the whole Court of Owls thing is Thomas Wayne Jr., Bruce Wayne's brother (!). That's right, somehow Bruce has a brother that his parents never told him about. Apparently some sort of accident maimed him as a child and he was sent to a special children's hospital. The idea that Bruce would have never been taken to visit him, or that Thomas would not have been mentioned in the Wayne family will, or that an accident involving the child of one of the richest families in Gotham would not have been highly publicized, is absurd. This is meant to be a shock to us and to Bruce but really it is nonsensical and stupid, and undermines the fact that the Waynes were loving parents who would never hide a brother from Bruce. I'll just end that rant there though I could probably say more.

Hmm... is it just me or it kinda resembles this old storyline where Bane was believed to be Bruce's long lost brother?

JoeMac307
2012-06-25, 03:19 PM
All this hoohah is worth it though for the new 52 Wonder Woman, so good :smallbiggrin:

It's funny... DCnU Wonder Woman is a very polarizing subject. Some people love how it is referencing the mythology and going to interesting new places with the character, and others are ripping their hair out because not only has Azzarello killed off all the Amazons, but he also turned them into an entire race of murdering rapists who sold half their children (i.e. all male babies) into slavery. That has really PO'ed a lot of people.

I edited to add in the spoiler tag.

JoeMac307
2012-06-25, 03:24 PM
If the conversation is at all Bat-family, then Batgirl and Batwoman are my favorite of the 52, so I can suggest those, at least.

Batwoman is awesome, awesome, awesome when JH Williams is pencilling. Otherwise, ehhh...

And I prefer me some Stephanie Batgirl with Barbara Oracle to Barbara Batgirl, but at least Gail Simone has a great understanding of the character.

Wolf_Haley
2012-06-25, 06:47 PM
Yeah how dare Azzarello actually follow myth :smalltongue:

smuchmuch
2012-06-26, 11:01 AM
killed off all the Amazons, but he also turned them into an entire race of murdering rapists who sold half their children (i.e. all male babies) into slavery. That has really PO'ed a lot of people.

(...Er... as someone who is not that familiar with DC universe out of the DCAu but is familiar with greek mythology, I'd like to point out that it is a lot closer to the original definition of 'amazons'.
Just sayin'


None of the... what? I'm thinking you meant "pretentious," but that's an adjective not a noun. I can't really work out what you mean here.

(I think he meant 'pretention' but used the adjective instead of the name, that's all.)

ThePhantasm
2012-06-27, 06:21 AM
Hmm... is it just me or it kinda resembles this old storyline where Bane was believed to be Bruce's long lost brother?

Yeah, it strikes me as highly derivative of that and Batman R.I.P.,

in which Bruce was revealed to have another psychotic relative ALSO named Thomas Wayne who was ALSO part of a secret society tied closely into the history of Gotham. :smallsigh:

So not only is it a gimmicky twist, it isn't even an original gimmicky twist.

VA_beds
2012-06-28, 02:19 PM
None of the... what? I'm thinking you meant "pretentious," but that's an adjective not a noun. I can't really work out what you mean here.


(...Er... as someone who is not that familiar with DC universe out of the DCAu but is familiar with greek mythology, I'd like to point out that it is a lot closer to the original definition of 'amazons'.
Just sayin'



(I think he meant 'pretention' but used the adjective instead of the name, that's all.)

i believe he meant Pretentiousness

TheEmerged
2012-06-28, 06:45 PM
RE: Wonder Woman \ Myth. Speaking for this WW fan, I like the mythic elements. I dislike the degree to which fanservice (I'm being nice) is being shoehorned into the series right now, but not enough to quit buying.

I *love* this writer's take on Hephaestus, incidentally.

Devonix
2012-06-28, 07:49 PM
Yeah, it strikes me as highly derivative of that and Batman R.I.P.,

in which Bruce was revealed to have another psychotic relative ALSO named Thomas Wayne who was ALSO part of a secret society tied closely into the history of Gotham. :smallsigh:

So not only is it a gimmicky twist, it isn't even an original gimmicky twist.

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that

the character of Thomas Wayne as Bruce's brother who grew up in that exact place already existed. All this story is doing is bringing the character back into continuity with a slight change to the story.

The character predates both of those stories and is a new way to bring in Owlman who is someone I also missed. Lets wait and see what happens though.

And yes in the old story it REALLY WAS his brother, not an imposter and not someone who just thought he was his brother. I for one really do hope that it is the case here as well.

ThePhantasm
2012-06-28, 07:54 PM
I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that

the character of Thomas Wayne as Bruce's brother who grew up in that exact place already existed. All this story is doing is bringing the character back into continuity with a slight change to the story.

The character predates both of those stories and is a new way to bring in Owlman who is someone I also missed. Lets wait and see what happens though.

And yes in the old story it REALLY WAS his brother, not an imposter and not someone who just thought he was his brother. I for one really do hope that it is the case here as well.

I'm aware of that. But comics go through a continual distillation process. Bad story elements get dropped because they are simply not well loved variations on the story. In this case, this character's loose footing in canon hardly made a mark on the Batman mythos... he was never explored again because no one cared. Why modern comics writers feel an impulse to resurrect failed storylines is beyond me. Just because there's precedent doesn't make it a good idea.

TheEmerged
2012-06-29, 07:25 AM
Why modern comics writers feel an impulse to resurrect failed storylines is beyond me. Just because there's precedent doesn't make it a good idea.

Four words:

"I can do this right..."

It's a common challenge to inflict on yourself as a writer. I've done the "change one scene in a story/movie that doesn't change the overall plot" variant several times myself.

For some writers, however, it's an ego thing. It's one of the easy traps of a continuity shift/alternate setting and way too many writers fall for it.

Rake21
2012-06-29, 07:36 AM
Four words:

"I can do this right..."

It's a common challenge to inflict on yourself as a writer. I've done the "change one scene in a story/movie that doesn't change the overall plot" variant several times myself.

For some writers, however, it's an ego thing. It's one of the easy traps of a continuity shift/alternate setting and way too many writers fall for it.

That's not to say it never works. In a few cases, the new writer does manage to pull off a better story.

Take the mess that was The Clone Saga (lightning crashes in the background). The original was one of the most convoluted and insane things I've ever seen, and IT JUST WOULDN'T END.


Then Brian Bendis tackled the same concept in Ultimate Spider-man, a book that had been having a slow and mediocore run for the past couple story arcs. And, lo and behold, this version of the Clone Saga was actually good. It was comparitavly short (6 issues as compared to the few years the original ran), Peter Parker wasn't replaced by a clone, the villian had a set plan, and it just worked as a narritive.

It's possible to do something right on the second try. I kinda waant to see if Snyder can pull it off, here.

TheEmerged
2012-06-29, 07:48 AM
Oh it most definitely works sometimes, don't mistake me here. I was dealing more with the question about the draw of the failed scenario over the successful one.

Scowling Dragon
2012-06-29, 07:57 AM
The new BatWoman is the character that finally made me quit comics.

She demonstrated how writers where willing to sell out to sell more.

The Oracle was the only (Or one of the only) non superpowered, non robot suit, disabled superhero.

For years the writers stuck to what they meant. This was permanent.

But now....Shes Batwoman again. This was especially heart-wrenching reading a blog of a person with similar disabilities that was just saddened by the occurrences.

Traab
2012-06-29, 08:20 AM
While I can understand that point of view, this was a reboot of everyone, its not like they said, "You know what? &^$% oracle! Lets make her walk and be batgirl again!" The entire story is restarting and will take a new path. That doesnt mean that there wont ever be another handicapped superhero without awesome powers, it just means that if it does happen, itll likely take awhile. No character remains the same forever. They all get their circumstances, abilities, motivations, whatever, changed, often frequently and in the same continuity. We have had crippled characters get up and walk as a part of their storyline, or healthy heroes get their backs broken to make for a new story arc. Getting hung up on how the character who was finally in exactly the way you wanted him/her was changed is just plain silly imo, given how its always happening to everyone. Its just a part of comic lifespans.

Scowling Dragon
2012-06-29, 08:39 AM
"You know what? &^$% oracle! Lets make her walk and be batgirl again!"
Hows that not what they did?


Thats another thing. Comics have gone on for so long that its like there are tumors growing on them, and every reboot needs too lop off some of the bigger ones.

Thats why I just see webcomics as better. Even though they will not always have the best art, or as fast a update schedule, they are relatively fresh, and the writing is usually great (+ its free). They (As in the ones I read) don't need a reboot every five years because the universes are giant limping tumor blobs of continuity and misteps.

Traab
2012-06-29, 10:10 AM
Hows that not what they did?


Thats another thing. Comics have gone on for so long that its like there are tumors growing on them, and every reboot needs too lop off some of the bigger ones.

Thats why I just see webcomics as better. Even though they will not always have the best art, or as fast a update schedule, they are relatively fresh, and the writing is usually great (+ its free). They (As in the ones I read) don't need a reboot every five years because the universes are giant limping tumor blobs of continuity and misteps.

Because it wasnt just barbra gordon getting rebooted but everyone and everything? You dont know that she wont end up paralyzed again eventually. If they decide it was a popular character, they may have her get paralyzed some other way this time. Some degenerative disease, a random car wreck, or maybe a different bad guy. Hell, maybe robin will get pissed off at her and snap her like a toothpick, whatever. Point being, she isnt the oracle NOW, doesnt mean she wont be later. or that another hero will be in a similar position in time.

Scowling Dragon
2012-06-29, 10:18 AM
So for NOW its a big FU to Oracle and people that looked up to her. Later its going to be an example of repetition in comics.

Again. The problem is that Superheroes are running for too long.

The standard superhero tropes are OLD. For once, I would like a story where the world was effected by this in more then just the occasional Government mutant army and secret tech base by a superhero.

The world changes. New tech is developed based off the aliens falling from the sky, and actually USED.

Flying cars, Cybernetics, widespread superpowers ext.

ThePhantasm
2012-06-29, 10:38 AM
Four words:

"I can do this right..."

If its a bad idea, it is a bad idea, no matter how good the writing is. I tend to be against changing a superhero's origin story like this for what comes off as a cheap twist. It smacks of gimmicks, when I'd like to be seeing writers produce something creative within the bounds of what they already have.

And if they want to just "do it right" to see if they can, heck, make it an Elseworlds story but not part of continuity.

Xondoure
2012-06-30, 07:33 PM
So for NOW its a big FU to Oracle and people that looked up to her. Later its going to be an example of repetition in comics.

Again. The problem is that Superheroes are running for too long.

The standard superhero tropes are OLD. For once, I would like a story where the world was effected by this in more then just the occasional Government mutant army and secret tech base by a superhero.

The world changes. New tech is developed based off the aliens falling from the sky, and actually USED.

Flying cars, Cybernetics, widespread superpowers ext.

It would be awesome. Imagine a comic universe as old as Marvel or DC that actually had a consistent and evolving storyline. Heroes grow old and die, new ones replace them. Technology advances, humanity spreads among the stars... It would be marvelous.

Man on Fire
2012-06-30, 07:49 PM
The new BatWoman is the character that finally made me quit comics.

She demonstrated how writers where willing to sell out to sell more.

The Oracle was the only (Or one of the only) non superpowered, non robot suit, disabled superhero.

For years the writers stuck to what they meant. This was permanent.

But now....Shes Batwoman again. This was especially heart-wrenching reading a blog of a person with similar disabilities that was just saddened by the occurrences.

I think you're talking about Batgirl, Batwoman is completely different character and her comics is, from what I heard, actually good.

Lord Seth
2012-06-30, 10:56 PM
That's not to say it never works. In a few cases, the new writer does manage to pull off a better story.

Take the mess that was The Clone Saga (lightning crashes in the background). The original was one of the most convoluted and insane things I've ever seen, and IT JUST WOULDN'T END.


Then Brian Bendis tackled the same concept in Ultimate Spider-man, a book that had been having a slow and mediocore run for the past couple story arcs. And, lo and behold, this version of the Clone Saga was actually good. It was comparitavly short (6 issues as compared to the few years the original ran), Peter Parker wasn't replaced by a clone, the villian had a set plan, and it just worked as a narritive.

It's possible to do something right on the second try. I kinda waant to see if Snyder can pull it off, here.To be fair, I've been told the original Clone Saga did start off good, the problem is that because it was so popular they wanted to keep it going, so it kept going...and going...and going...and going...

SaintRidley
2012-06-30, 11:17 PM
Because it wasnt just barbra gordon getting rebooted but everyone and everything?

Yeah, but if everything and everyone was getting rebooted, we'd be starting over with origin stories and things like Brightest Day wouldn't still count as having happened.

So, not quite everyone and everything?

See, this is what I don't like with comic reboots. Reboots should cut everything back to square one. All previous storylines should have no bearing. All previous characters except the superhero and the most iconic other characters should be stripped back to not existing and reintroduced organically or not at all into the story.

Never happens, though.

Devonix
2012-07-01, 02:19 AM
Yeah, but if everything and everyone was getting rebooted, we'd be starting over with origin stories and things like Brightest Day wouldn't still count as having happened.

So, not quite everyone and everything?

See, this is what I don't like with comic reboots. Reboots should cut everything back to square one. All previous storylines should have no bearing. All previous characters except the superhero and the most iconic other characters should be stripped back to not existing and reintroduced organically or not at all into the story.

Never happens, though.

Identity Crisis, Blackest night, Final Crisis all of those things are still Canon I believe.

This is the worst thought out reboot ever because not even all the writers are sure what is canon now.

Detective comics and Batman which were supposed to take place at the same time are apparently happening years apart.

Devonix
2012-07-01, 02:33 AM
They should have gone the Crisis on Infinite Earths route, still the best reboot in comics history. and just started over from scratch completely if that was what they wanted.

Man on Fire
2012-07-01, 11:16 AM
Reboots shouldn't never happen at all, Crisis on Infinite Earths at least has some reason for it to happen (comics have become too much convoluded mess), but rest was just there to reset status quo for lazy writers to wanting to deal with and people's faboyism has gotten best of them. Instead of organic progression, whenever writers have bunch of storylines they don't like, they push reset button.

Devonix
2012-07-01, 12:18 PM
Oh I agree the reboot was dumb all around and never should have happened. Though if they were gonna reboot then do it properly.

DC had moved to a point where there was real progress in moving things forward to a NEW status Quo.

Kirby's Fourth World was finnaly over and humanity was ready to take their place as the Fifth World.

Batman's legacy had brought about a son and he had a family again as well as full acceptance of who he was even the new paradim of Batman Inc

Lantern Corps all over the place

Full Flash Family alive and active together

JSA training up the next gen and being awesome


This was a time for everything to move forward for an entire new generation. Even retire a few heroes.

But NOOO the higher ups decided that things had gotten too big and to grand in scope so it's time to shrink everything again.

Scowling Dragon
2012-07-02, 05:15 PM
It would be awesome. Imagine a comic universe as old as Marvel or DC that actually had a consistent and evolving storyline. Heroes grow old and die, new ones replace them. Technology advances, humanity spreads among the stars... It would be marvelous.

This is essentially X-Com.

But still. That WOULD be a really interesting comic. Realistic stuff going on. And remember- superheroes would be on other planets as well. It could have balanced races (So that Human=/= automatically mean suck whilst the other races are elves.). This could be a developing universe.

TheLaughingMan
2012-07-02, 06:34 PM
Crisis on Infinite Earths at least has some reason for it to happen (comics have become too much convoluded mess)

And that's not the case nowadays because...?

Man on Fire
2012-07-02, 08:36 PM
And that's not the case nowadays because...?

Nowadays they are convoluded mess because of reboots. All problems with reading DC Comics can be traced back to omeevent that rebooted things - Crisis on Infinite Earths (all S**T related to Hawkman or Power Girl), Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Flashpoint - all of them did half-assed job at rebooting, making unsure what is and what isn't in continuity. All Superman reboots and retelling of his origin one after another, all attempts at reinventing Wonder Woman (which she needs, maybe at one point she'll stop looking like a stripper) based on nothing but retcons, all deleting character's history and regressing them back to how they were (I have name for you. Starts with "One" and ends with "Day") - this is what makes comics mess it is now.

Lord Seth
2012-07-02, 09:49 PM
This is something I like about the Sonic the Hedgehog series. No real reboots, and I feel that despite being past issue #225, they still do a decent job having the whole thing feel like a legitimate ongoing narrative.

Devonix
2012-07-02, 09:59 PM
This is something I like about the Sonic the Hedgehog series. No real reboots, and I feel that despite being past issue #225, they still do a decent job having the whole thing feel like a legitimate ongoing narrative.

Damn Strait I love that series. I may miss a storyline every so often even go a year or to without reading. When I get back in so many things have changed but it's never that difficult getting caught up again.