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View Full Version : The Naruto Ninja World vs. the Avatar the Last Airbender World



Giegue
2012-06-18, 06:38 PM
As the title says. The Shinobi world of Naruto is pit against the world of Avatar, the last airbender. Two Psudo-asian societies with superpowered martial artists square off against the other. The scenario pits the ninja, villages and factions of Naruto against the nations of Avatar. The Avatar world being used is from the original series, not Legend of Korra, so the technological advantage of the legend of Korra era avatar setting is not present to tilt the scales. Despite the fact both worlds are plagued by war and fighting among the prominent nations, villages and factions, it is assumed that all nations, villages and factions(Including evil ones, such as the Akatsuki from Naruto or Fire nation from Avatar) in each world have made a temporary alliance for the purpose of winning the war and saving their world.

The scenario is thus, an all out war between the worlds, with everything from both worlds allowed as long as it fits in the respective era(so, again, no legend of Korra technology for the avatar world.). Chakra is assumed to be different then Ki, so any form of ki manipulation and all ki-related powers from the avatar world dose not work with and/or on Naruto ninja Chakra and likewise chakra sensing, chakra drain and other chakra-related powers that Naruto Ninja possess do not work on and/or with avatar world Ki. Since this is a formal war scenario, both sides have ample time to study their opponents and prepare their forces. No side is taken surprised by lack of knowledge or lack of preparation.

Anyway, between these two worlds, which one do you all think wins the war?

Xondoure
2012-06-18, 06:45 PM
Ninja world easily. If this was pre shippuden power creep it might be more interesting but even then, haxinobi would crush normal bending.

Though I'd like to point out Narutoverse has contemporary technology, so Korra's roaring twenties vibe is still out matched by the Narutoworld.

DiscipleofBob
2012-06-18, 06:51 PM
Avatar has 4 elements.

Naruto has 5 elements.

5 > 4

Winner = Naruto.

:smalltongue:

Giegue
2012-06-18, 06:52 PM
In Response to the Naruto world tech comment:

Yeah, but the Naruto world technology has not been shown to be nearly as dangerous and powerful as that in legend of Korra. Most of the technology in the Naruto world has been household appliances, or for communication or transportation-use only. The exceptions to this are shurikin guns and ONE industrial-looking city that has not been confirmed to actually possess any heavy industry.

Meanwhile, Legend of Korra avatarverse has MECHS, weapons that are far more effective and dangerous then shurikin launchers, airships and other things that are far beyond the scope of what the Naruto world has tech-wise.

______________________

As for the Naruto world, I never actually specified an era,which is my mistake and I apologize for that. For balance sake I will say that it is pre-shippuden, so Naruto cannot go Kyubbi mode and level mountains with one blast, Madara is dead and staying that way and Tobi is still an idolt nobody knows about.

tyckspoon
2012-06-18, 06:54 PM
Ninja win, easily. An average bender can probably take out an average ninja fairly easily, since bending is faster than jutsu at that level- every Bender basically has a Bloodline talent for his element, which is a pretty strong advantage over a mook ninja. But the elite ninja are on a level that just doesn't exist in Avatar; a capable jounin with a good schtick would probably be a match for Aang in Avatar State, and that's not even touching the real Big Guns of the Naruto setting. Characters like the Kages or Naruto himself could blow through fairly arbitrary numbers of benders.


Most of the technology in the Naruto world has been communications or transportation-based.

It should be noted that if you're waging war on somebody, these are *very good* fields to have a tech advantage in. Also, the Naruto world has miniaturized high-explosives that a single ninja can carry dozens of and deliver at significant range (Explosive Tags attached to shuriken/kunai, which ninja have demonstrated the ability to throw at ranges and accuracy comparable to machine-aided projectiles.)

Lord Raziere
2012-06-18, 06:56 PM
Yea, I'm sad to say that despite the cumbersome handsign stuff, the ninjas would win. They are just able to do a whole lot more variety of things than any Bender, they are trained to kill, and they can summon big giant things that can also use magic, that their bodies are probably better fit and more enhanced- we have seen those ninjas do acrobatic things and stunts no one in the Avatar world can replicate.

It gets even worse when you consider that the Sharinhax might be able to copy bending, and that Byakugan would be able to see the Benders chakra points and instantly shut down their bending abilities without needing any training aside from their normal kind. The Hyuuga family would basically make the Equalists look like slow untrained chumps.

Giegue
2012-06-18, 06:59 PM
I already said that chakra-based abilities do not work with avatarverse ki and vice-versa. So Sharingan cannot copy Bending and Byakugan cannot allow Hyuuga to see the flow of Ki in a Bender, or disrupt a Bender's ki.

Sith_Happens
2012-06-18, 07:01 PM
Ninja world easily. If this was pre shippuden power creep it might be more interesting but even then, haxinobi would crush normal bending.

Even disregarding power levels entirely, the speed difference is enough to turn this into a total curb-stomp battle. If there's one thing that's been shown to take down a bender nine times out of ten, it's the ability to move really fast and/or dodge things. Pretty much the basic requirement of being a Naruto-world ninja is to make Ty Lee look like a sloth.

Madara
2012-06-18, 07:06 PM
I already said that chakra-based abilities do not work with avatarverse ki and vice-versa. So Sharingan cannot copy Bending and Byakugan cannot allow Hyuuga to see the flow of Ki in a Bender, or disrupt a Bender's ki.

He's working under the belief that all humans have chakra and have ki, which makes more sense if the two were to collide.


I'll have to give it to the ninja. The only organized army in the old show was the fire nation. Not everyone is a bender, and there is only one airbender and very few water benders. Even Pre-Shippuden, you'd have orochimaru actually being dangerous. Unless Avatar picks on Naruto for having filler arcs, its almost one sided.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-06-18, 07:16 PM
I already said that chakra-based abilities do not work with avatarverse ki and vice-versa. So Sharingan cannot copy Bending and Byakugan cannot allow Hyuuga to see the flow of Ki in a Bender, or disrupt a Bender's ki.

Wait you actually think the the sharingan is for copying powers... that's umm... yeah...

Lord Raziere
2012-06-18, 07:19 PM
Yes well,the flipside is that chi-blockers might be able to shut down chakra.

but again, we have speed issues. and the fact that Ninja handsigns are basically just another form of wizardly spellcasting and are capable of far greater things than any bender as long as they have the chakra and know what the technique does and how to activate it.

that and ninjas use more devious and deceptive tactics in every single battle, meanwhile even in the original series with all their creative applications of bending, still fought with straight kung-fu type of mind set where you just leap into battle and try and be as big a badass as you can, which doesn't serve well against the ninjas who are all about preparing their battles and using everything they have at hand to their full effectiveness, even Naruto, pre-timeskip uses a lot more tactical methods than even the smartest of benders.

Tavar
2012-06-18, 08:23 PM
Yeah...going with Naruto verse. And if it's post timeskip, it's even more insane. At that point, the Naruto Verse has people competitive with Elder Exalted.

TSGames
2012-06-18, 08:30 PM
Justsu is to Bending as a flamethrower is to a lighter.

Callos_DeTerran
2012-06-19, 01:24 AM
Yeah...going with Naruto verse. And if it's post timeskip, it's even more insane. At that point, the Naruto Verse has people competitive with Elder Exalted.

...If it's post Timeskip then Akatsuki does it be themselves...Pain, arguably, does it by himself.

Pre-time-skip...hmmm...It's a lot more even, but not by too much. Avatar-Aang is still the biggest threat on the field along with Ozai, Toph, Iroh, Combustion Man, and...er...Master Pakku, rivaled by Kyuubi Naruto, the Sannin, Itachi/Kisame, or the Hokages though Aang has the advantage that he can bend elemental jutsu techniques. Chidori? Redirect the lightning. Fireball jutsu? Airbend to disperse? Water jutsu? Redirect it back at them. Etc. etc. That is an area that benders have the advantage...but it's not a great advantage since ninjas can do things benders can't stop...well...none Aang benders anyway. I'm assuming the Avatar-state can break Aang out of genjutsu anyway.

...Here's a question, are we using each Avatar-based character at their highest? Cause if so...erm...well...Sozin's-comet empowered Ozai+firebenders is a big tipping point. They were able to cause damage on a scale not seen until after time skip and could feasible handle the summoned creatures that may or may not appear. More importantly, Ozai's plan to burn the Earth Kingdom to ashes via airships would work just as well in the Naruto-verse since true flight is about as rare in it as it is in the Avatar-setting. Ninja could try to jump up there, but then it's just a problem of getting to the proper height.The high speed of ninjas is still a huge problem though, as is their non elemental jutsu. Genjutsu? Terrible for benders (even Toph). Summoning jutsu? Assuming a worthwhile summon shows up, it could win a battle all on it's own. Taijutsu? Depends on the taijutsu user actually...Jyuuken could be problematic...but the Hyuuga are stopped the same way Ty Lee was, pinning down their hands/feet with ice/earth bending. They're faster, true, but they are manangeable...Guy and Lee style taijutsu just..just ends benders. Horrible and brutally.

Hilariously enough though, this is a situation where Gaara's defenses would actually be extremely vulnerable. Both to being bent or just flat out over-come via waterbending or lightning shooting.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-06-19, 10:53 AM
...If it's post Timeskip then Akatsuki does it be themselves...Pain, arguably, does it by himself.

If not Pain then Madara and Kurama+Naruto. And possibly whatever our Big Bad turns out to wield when actually fighting to win.


Summoning jutsu? Assuming a worthwhile summon shows up, it could win a battle all on it's own.

No no it is reliable, Naruto couldn't do it because he's an idiot at actual techniques and one time Jiraiya was poisoned. Every other time its reliable as any technique.

Food Cart Destroyer might as well be Bending Army Destroyer.

Even pre-timeskip the Ninja World can put something like a dozen kaijuu on the field of battle. I'm just not sure how many separate snakes we can tie to Orochimaru but there's still Shukaku and heck the Choji's papa even. Really with the exception of certain particular fights the post-timeskip world probably isn't as as powered up as perhaps its as thought to be.

Heck the pure win that is Flying Thunder God Technique is technically pre-timeskip thanks to Kakaishi Gaiden. Minato alone accounts for the Avatar in any battle and then some.


Taijutsu? Depends on the taijutsu user actually...Jyuuken could be problematic...but the Hyuuga are stopped the same way Ty Lee was, pinning down their hands/feet with ice/earth bending. They're faster, true, but they are manangeable...Guy and Lee style taijutsu just..just ends benders. Horrible and brutally.

Neji is comparable to Rock Lee remember, so that's easier said then done. Lee thought he had all of zero chance against Neji. Him and Hinata's papa can just deflect anything a bender can put out with their spiny-top technique so they aren't going to be overpowered either.

Ravens_cry
2012-06-19, 11:06 AM
As much as I prefer the world of Bending to the world of Naruto, yeah, going to have to give it to the latter; Naruto-verse skills tend to be a lot more diverse than Bending.

Callos_DeTerran
2012-06-19, 11:27 AM
No no it is reliable, Naruto couldn't do it because he's an idiot at actual techniques and one time Jiraiya was poisoned. Every other time its reliable as any technique.

Naruto still is shown to have trouble getting the summon he wants, although other summoners don't. I figure it's better to account for the chance of it happening then to exclude it entirely. Yeah though, only Naruto's really shown trouble with the summoning technique and that can likely be ascribed to his own relative inexperience with the technique.


Food Cart Destroyer might as well be Bending Army Destroyer.

Never mind Gamabunta.


Even pre-timeskip the Ninja World can put something like a dozen kaijuu on the field of battle. I'm just not sure how many separate snakes we can tie to Orochimaru but there's still Shukaku and heck the Choji's papa even. Really with the exception of certain particular fights the post-timeskip world probably isn't as as powered up as perhaps its as thought to be.

Heck the pure win that is Flying Thunder God Technique is technically pre-timeskip thanks to Kakaishi Gaiden. Minato alone accounts for the Avatar in any battle and then some.

Well that's the thing though, if all those kaijuu are on one field of battle then they aren't on other fields of battle and the benders can just focus on those conflicts instead. Normally I wouldn't point out tactics, but barring a few specific individuals from Naruto, the Avatar-verse displays much better tactics. Even if those kaiju are there, there's still Fire Nation airships with their fire-bending and bombs. Such a huge size isn't a great advantage there. As for Shukaku...he runs into a massive problem when larger then 1/4th of the enemy forces can bend him. All earthbenders can bend sand and a specific subset of them focus on bending sand. I guess my point is more so the kaiju are a big advantage but they'd have to be used intelligently because they can be dealt with by the bending world, albeit in very specific ways....Mostly carpet bombing. As for Minato...if we were going pre-time-skip I assumed we were going from the range of 'Naruto becoming a genin' to 'Sasuke runs away' which would put Minato out of the running.


Neji is comparable to Rock Lee remember, so that's easier said then done. Lee thought he had all of zero chance against Neji. Him and Hinata's papa can just deflect anything a bender can put out with their spiny-top technique so they aren't going to be overpowered either.

See, I honestly don't think Neji is comparable to Rock Lee. Certainly not in speed or strength, which is a huge thing. Lee thought he had no chance because he's probably never fought Neji seriously. I doubt he was ever given permission to open the Gates for a sparring match with a friend after all. That said, he can't spin forever or he'll run out of chakra damn fast. Nor can it deflect everything. Barring one or two special occasions, it doesn't affect the ground beneath Neji so if an earthbender just sucked one of his feet into the ground (like they did to Ty Lee) that's both the end of the Divination Whirl and Jyuuken, followed swiftly by Neji himself cause those are his only schticks.

Dusk Eclipse
2012-06-19, 12:06 PM
Even pre-timeskip one can't discount Minato or other dead guys, remember that Orochimaru introduced Edo tensei in his battle against the Sandaime. So if we are assuming all shown techniques are available then, save a few even at pre-time skip we can see the previous kages, the dead shinobi like the former swordmen of the mist and others. Or if you "rule" that obly characters introduced pre-time skip are available for Edo tensei that still leaves open all the previous Hokage, Zabuza, Haku, Hatake Sakumo (Kakashi's father), etc.

One thing I am really curious si if a master firebender would be able to bend Amaterasu, though I am I pretty sure it would be a feat like redirecting lightning.

Callos_DeTerran
2012-06-19, 12:17 PM
Even pre-timeskip one can't discount Minato or other dead guys, remember that Orochimaru introduced Edo tensei in his battle against the Sandaime. So if we are assuming all shown techniques are available then, save a few even at pre-time skip we can see the previous kages, the dead shinobi like the former swordmen of the mist and others. Or if you "rule" that obly characters introduced pre-time skip are available for Edo tensei that still leaves open all the previous Hokage, Zabuza, Haku, Hatake Sakumo (Kakashi's father), etc.

One thing I am really curious si if a master firebender would be able to bend Amaterasu, though I am I pretty sure it would be a feat like redirecting lightning.

Actually Minato can still be discounted because his soul is trapped in conflict with the Kyuubi's chakra, remember? There's no soul to bring back for Edo Tensei and thus he shouldn't be considered. More importantly, if it's pre-timeskip then Orochimaru is the only one with Edo Tensei and he can't control the army of zombies that Kabuto can. And if so, I recommend sticking with the bodies that Orochimaru did choose to bring back, that being the Second and First Hokage. I'm of the opinion we should stick strictly to pre-Shippuden and the characters introduced there within....otherwise this becomes horribly one-sided...Er...More so then it otherwise would be anyway.

As for bending Ameterasu..We never really see fire-benders bend another fire-bender's flames...but we do see them deflect it harmlessly (notably Zhao in his Agni Kai with Zuko).

Soras Teva Gee
2012-06-19, 01:19 PM
Naruto still is shown to have trouble getting the summon he wants, although other summoners don't. I figure it's better to account for the chance of it happening then to exclude it entirely. Yeah though, only Naruto's really shown trouble with the summoning technique and that can likely be ascribed to his own relative inexperience with the technique.

The problem is that its outlined as a problem with specific causes for why it happens. Its not a relevant chance that actually happens.


Never mind Gamabunta.


Except that's not Gamabunta. :smallwink:


Well that's the thing though, if all those kaijuu are on one field of battle then they aren't on other fields of battle and the benders can just focus on those conflicts instead.

A not unreasonable point but it works both ways. The Sanin and Gaara can spread out and take three armies apiece of mooks while other ninjas can say go after the elites elsewhere. Guys like Kakashi, Guy, Minato, Shikamaru, Sasuke, Sarutobi, etc down to all the Jonin and beyond.... kill all the named characters from AtLA then the Sanin and Gaara rest up and take out more armies. Or a thousand different ways to spin the conflict

Ultimately the power balance rests with the Ninja World.


Normally I wouldn't point out tactics, but barring a few specific individuals from Naruto, the Avatar-verse displays much better tactics. Even if those kaiju are there, there's still Fire Nation airships with their fire-bending and bombs. Such a huge size isn't a great advantage there.

Frankly at the weapon range of say Ozai's burn down the Earth Kingdom idea (which really makes zero sense but oh well) then those airships won't amount to much... or they have to fly low enough the ninja just flat out jump on. Naruto could get all over the village before learning to walk on walls afterall.

Nah you know what, I'll give the entire Fire Nation air fleet to Minato. That's a good use of his abilities.


As for Shukaku...he runs into a massive problem when larger then 1/4th of the enemy forces can bend him. All earthbenders can bend sand and a specific subset of them focus on bending sand.

Frankly no they can't. First off bending is not four abilities, its more like four base classes with some related prestige classes. The generic earthbenders are... pick up a rock and do something with it.

Second we all know the true nature of the Bijuu is a mass of chakra. Particularly here even those benders that can bend sand aren't going to be able to just take apart Shukaku's body because the force that's holding it together will be acting directly against it. So anything done will be minimal given the scale involved (we don't see a high level sandbender so help me) and be an attempt at the death of a thousand cuts. Mind you its totally possible, but the advantage still comes out to Shukaku in the numbers game since you'd need like all the sandbenders. And they'd die doing it while Shukaku wouldn't. (Well okay Gaara would need extraction if they managed but that IS the Sand Siblings job)


As for Minato...if we were going pre-time-skip I assumed we were going from the range of 'Naruto becoming a genin' to 'Sasuke runs away' which would put Minato out of the running.

Kakashi Gaiden is the literally the interlude between them in chapters and I consider the timeskip to be Part II starting.

I still think we have lots of other ways for this to happen. Minato is just a one guy that could solo anything the Avatarverse can throw but lacks the scale to do it all before exhausting himself. Plenty of others that are "only the Aang Avatar State has a chance" level beyond sheer weight of numbers which reward the Ninja world anyways.



See, I honestly don't think Neji is comparable to Rock Lee. Certainly not in speed or strength, which is a huge thing. Lee thought he had no chance because he's probably never fought Neji seriously. I doubt he was ever given permission to open the Gates for a sparring match with a friend after all. That said, he can't spin forever or he'll run out of chakra damn fast. Nor can it deflect everything. Barring one or two special occasions, it doesn't affect the ground beneath Neji so if an earthbender just sucked one of his feet into the ground (like they did to Ty Lee) that's both the end of the Divination Whirl and Jyuuken, followed swiftly by Neji himself cause those are his only schticks.

Neji is still fast enough to deflect multiple projectiles that fly at arrow speed quite aside from the spinning top technique. And IIRC when in use they lift off the ground when spinning, have used it in air, and made craters with it... so its not vulnerable from below which is an established tactic in the verse.

Of course Neji will fall from exhaustion eventually, but until then he is another character who will untouchable until then taking out dozens of mooks and a match for most named characters on the other side. That some of the better earth or water benders might be able to trap him does not mean they will do so easily.



One thing I am really curious si if a master firebender would be able to bend Amaterasu, though I am I pretty sure it would be a feat like redirecting lightning.

Broadly speaking I would say no since its a purely mystical sort of fire. Even if theoretically possible its shouldn't be something they can just do on the fly.

Now the real question would be if the "fire jutsu does nothing" rule which even covers carries over to the much slower folk of AtLA. Or maybe it applies to firebending....

Callos_DeTerran
2012-06-19, 02:17 PM
The problem is that its outlined as a problem with specific causes for why it happens. Its not a relevant chance that actually happens.

It's still relevant though. Jiraiya fudged up his own summons not because of the poison but because of how it affected his chakra (Okay, you can say that's due to poison, but you get what I mean!) and any kaiju-level summoning either needs a team of ninja or a buttload of chakra. They won't be that common. If a summoner who can manage to summon kaiju wants to do so, that means not using other big flashy techniques.


Except that's not Gamabunta. :smallwink:

Right, I meant 'and that's not even considering Gamabunta'. Not to imply the Food Cart Destroyer is Gamabunta.


A not unreasonable point but it works both ways. The Sanin and Gaara can spread out and take three armies apiece of mooks while other ninjas can say go after the elites elsewhere. Guys like Kakashi, Guy, Minato, Shikamaru, Sasuke, Sarutobi, etc down to all the Jonin and beyond.... kill all the named characters from AtLA then the Sanin and Gaara rest up and take out more armies. Or a thousand different ways to spin the conflict

Ultimately the power balance rests with the Ninja World.

Kakashi, Guy, Minato, and Sarutobi could, sure...Shikamaru can put up a fight...depending on the person. Sasuke is likely the easiest one to beat down though but a powerful firebender. His fire-jutsu would be laughable compared to them and his chidori is good..but against Zuko or Iroh is a death sentence. The same for Kakashi if he uses Lightning Edge, but the chances of him being forced to that point are unlikely. Other jonin?...No info on them. Asuma could be taken down with some trouble and he seems a better example of an 'average' jounin. And if they are, I can't see them killing a lot of named characters from AtLA. Well...important ones anyway.

The Sanin and Gaara though...don't see them taking three armies of mooks a piece. I think you're over-estimating the sannin a bit. Orochimaru, for example, is quite powerful...but lacks any AoE jutsu to handle a large amount of enemies. And if he whips out the Kusanagi then he's actually limiting himself. Tsunade could endure an army, but I'm doubtful if she could take an army. Jiraiya could though, depending on how large the army is and how it fights. Gaara...depends on which Gaara. Chuunin arc Gaara couldn't take an army. Sasuke Retrival Arc Gaara could, but chances are he'll be taken down after wards since the Desert Tsunami/Imperial Sand Burial combo takes a lot of his juice. That's a big factor here, running out of chakra. All the big names of Naruto could clear out lots of benders if they use their big name moves, but then they'll be running out of chakra and being extremely vulnerable afterwards. Benders on the other hand, seem capable of bending as long as they can move. So they aren't stopping until dead or utterly exhausted.


Frankly at the weapon range of say Ozai's burn down the Earth Kingdom idea (which really makes zero sense but oh well) then those airships won't amount to much... or they have to fly low enough the ninja just flat out jump on. Naruto could get all over the village before learning to walk on walls afterall.

Nah you know what, I'll give the entire Fire Nation air fleet to Minato. That's a good use of his abilities.

They don't need to fly low to drop bombs, as seen in the Day of Black Sun. Nor can ninja just jump on. If there's one thing ninjas don't seem capable of, it's super-jumping abilities with out extreme Taijutsu prowess (Guy) or a great push-off. Very few could make the leap up to an airship, that's the whole reason Deidara (pulling from Season 2) was such a nuisance. If the jounin on the ground could have just jumped up, they would have. Not bothered with the ballista and so on. One of the kaiju could reach an airship in the air, but other then that they're relying on long-ranged jutsu to take them down. See below on Minato.


Frankly no they can't. First off bending is not four abilities, its more like four base classes with some related prestige classes. The generic earthbenders are... pick up a rock and do something with it.

Second we all know the true nature of the Bijuu is a mass of chakra. Particularly here even those benders that can bend sand aren't going to be able to just take apart Shukaku's body because the force that's holding it together will be acting directly against it. So anything done will be minimal given the scale involved (we don't see a high level sandbender so help me) and be an attempt at the death of a thousand cuts. Mind you its totally possible, but the advantage still comes out to Shukaku in the numbers game since you'd need like all the sandbenders. And they'd die doing it while Shukaku wouldn't. (Well okay Gaara would need extraction if they managed but that IS the Sand Siblings job).

I'm not counting the mooks for a lot in this battle, so when I say more then 1/4th, I mean there's a lot more earthbenders then there are waterbenders and airbenders (who total 1). Only firebenders could manage to match Earthbenders for numbers.

Right...Bijuu in their natural form are just living chakra. Shukaku is not in his natural form in any of his appearances, he's made of compacted sand due to the way he's bound to Gaara. Sand saturated with chakra, but sand nonetheless. Sand is bendable by any bender, the sand-benders are just a lot better at it. Toph, while admittedly a protege, was half-blind and had never been in a desert before still managed sand-bending. It's not a great indication that ever earthbender could bend sand, but it's a point that they could if they had to. Could they control Shukaku? Probably not. But get them to work together in a team (which is a strength of the benders) and they conceivably 'slow' or 'halt' Shukaku. Nevermind the fact firebenders could melt the sand that makes up Shukaku or earth is weak against lightning (thanks for that bit of idiocy Kishimoto), or waterbenders could dilute the wand with water. More importantly, Shukaku is uncontrollable. If it gets lose, it's as much a danger to the shinobi as it is to the benders.


Kakashi Gaiden is the literally the interlude between them in chapters and I consider the timeskip to be Part II starting.

Maybe I should clarify, I wasn't referring to the timeline of the manga progression (Part I, Part II, etc.), but the timeline within the Narutoverse itself. I.E, the time between when Naruto got his headband to the point he left on his training mission with Jiraiya. Not chapters, flashbacks, or anything abstract like that, the literal time span in universe between those two points.


I still think we have lots of other ways for this to happen. Minato is just a one guy that could solo anything the Avatarverse can throw but lacks the scale to do it all before exhausting himself. Plenty of others that are "only the Aang Avatar State has a chance" level beyond sheer weight of numbers which reward the Ninja world anyways.

Even were Minato allowed (I'm of the opinion he shouldn't be, obviously), I think he'd have a hard time with Aang in Avatar-state. His teleportation is awesome, but if we go by the Super-Bumper-Ball-Avatar-State-Aang, then it doesn't do any good since Minato can position himself around the field...but not close to Aang. Or rather, he could throw one of those shuriken at Aang but it'd never hit him and Minato would have to use 1 shuriken per attempt to reach Aang. It'd be...an interesting fight honestly.



Neji is still fast enough to deflect multiple projectiles that fly at arrow speed quite aside from the spinning top technique. And IIRC when in use they lift off the ground when spinning, have used it in air, and made craters with it... so its not vulnerable from below which is an established tactic in the verse.

Multiple isn't 'army-number' or 'elemental bending' outside of the spinning top. With the spinning top, he could try...but it's shown a sufficiently powerful technique can punch through it. And..erm...they don't lift off the ground when spinning, cause they actually have to spin. I'm not sure when it was ever used in the air before though. And aye, it's made craters...but not every time. I'm inclined to think it takes a certain amount of power to manage that feat. More importantly, if Neji is spinning, he's not attacking. And he'd have to spin as long as the attacks are hitting him. A firebender or waterbender can 'hose' him until he's forced to stop spinning and then he's a goner. We actually don't know how it makes the crater, I think that's from the force of the outside of the whirl, not because it goes all the way around, but..there's no proof either way. In either case, he has to be aware of the attack and have the time to start the spin. With benders, he doesn't know which movements trigger bending and, more importantly, where it might come from. The byakugan is actually little help in this regard because it would see a bender move, but by the time the earth/water has moved as well, it could very well be too late to start spinning since there's little warning before the element has moved.


Of course Neji will fall from exhaustion eventually, but until then he is another character who will untouchable until then taking out dozens of mooks and a match for most named characters on the other side. That some of the better earth or water benders might be able to trap him does not mean they will do so easily.

Neji is a taijutsu specialist in a world where most ninjas rely, in part, on range to deal with their enemies. He's going up against enemies who have excellent range capabilities that also translate to superb melee ones. Is he good? Very...is he as good against benders as he is ninjas? Not by a long shot since his Jyuuken don't work by the OP's rules against benders and his soft style relies on his victims having a chakra network to win...Benders have a chakra network, but it only seems to be important for the Avatar. and it's not the same network as ninjas have with none of the same pressure points.

Don't get me wrong...I think Naruto ninjas will win too...but benders do have advantages over ninjas. They can bend elemental jutsu, their technology is better since the presence of tanks, submarines, and airships means even their benderless soldiers can still be a hassle to take down, if they even can be as well as attack places shinobi might not expect. They've fallen behind in communication over Naruto verse, but in other capacities they've exceeded ninja and it's important to note those differences.

ChaosLord29
2012-06-19, 02:35 PM
I'm inclined to say the Naruto genre is going to win here simply by the fact that it is written and executed for a more adult audience in which more lethal techniques are regularly employed on a larger scale than anything witnessed within the AtLA series.

Some of the heavy hitters like Aang, Ozai, Katara, Bumi and others could definitely handle the lower tier genin an chunin, as well as most of the characters you see in the Naruto series, but I just can't imagine anyway that even a fully realized Avatar like Roku, Kyoshi or Kuruk could handle the likes of the Akatsuki, Kakashi on a good day, or 9 Tails Naruto.

I mean, element control they're about even, but the ninja definitely seem to outnumber the benders, and utilize more varied and lethal techniques.

The only way I could see the world of Avatar: the Last Airbender winning, is if it was literally, the world of Naruto against the 4 Nations United behind a fully realized Avatar. Then it's a matter of logistics and attrition, which the Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom alone have in spades.

Prime32
2012-06-19, 03:59 PM
Neji is a taijutsu specialist in a world where most ninjas rely, in part, on range to deal with their enemies. He's going up against enemies who have excellent range capabilities that also translate to superb melee ones. Is he good? Very...is he as good against benders as he is ninjas? Not by a long shot since his Jyuuken don't work by the OP's rules against benders and his soft style relies on his victims having a chakra network to win...Benders have a chakra network, but it only seems to be important for the Avatar. and it's not the same network as ninjas have with none of the same pressure points.Er, both the Hyuugas and Chi-blockers can paralyse normal people by poking them. :smallconfused:

Traab
2012-06-19, 04:02 PM
The problem is, kakashi is avatar level all by himself, he has fire, water, lightning, earth, even ice techniques he can use. Most of the high end ninja have multiple elements they can work with. Thats a huge flexibility advantage the generic benders dont have. An earth bender can only work with earth, water with water, fire with fire. Most ninja may specialize in a single element, but they always seem to have a couple extra jutsus to fall back on at need. Thats jutsu versus bending, ninja have the edge just for flexibility.

As for hand to hand, put lee or gai anywhere on any battlefield, and have them remove their weights. Thats all they need to do, and suddenly its like a reenactment of the yondaime wiping out iwa. We never see anything remotely close to that level of raw speed or physical power in the avatar verse. God forbid they open gates. Suddenly they are moving so fast the very air around them is burning from sheer friction of their passing. While they are an extreme example, I think the average ninja will always be faster and mostly be physically stronger than a matching bender.

Genjutsu is another "I Win" for ninja. Have the benders EVER faced off against illusions? Aang might be able to break free with his avatar state, too bad he is the only one left able to notice kurenai walking up and slitting everyone else on his sides throats. Or god forbid, any decent kurama clan ninja that might be in the army.

Dont neglect fuinjutsu. Yes its rare to see it used much, but jiraya demonstrated that he could seal away amaterasu flames with just a few moments work with a scroll. The possibilities are endless there with a few decent sealing masters on the field.

Bottom line is, despite having a lot of potential with bending, and decent to good hand to hand skills, benders are just too limited in ability and power to stand up to a ninja army.

Tengu_temp
2012-06-19, 04:18 PM
I'm inclined to say the Naruto genre is going to win here simply by the fact that it is written and executed for a more adult audience in which more lethal techniques are regularly employed on a larger scale than anything witnessed within the AtLA series.

By a more adult audience you mean early teens instead of pre-teens, I assume.

Anyway, it's completely the opposite - the techniques and weapons used in Avatar would be very lethal in another setting, but since they're used in a kids' cartoon, they end up knocking people around instead and everyone always dodges sword strikes and arrows by inches. One could argue that the sole presence of Avatar characters would mean that the ninja are not capable of killing anyone in combat. On screen, at least.

Dusk Eclipse
2012-06-19, 04:23 PM
Even in a full war scenario were the four nations united against the ninja, we can't simply say they are at a tactical disadvantage. We see a lot of military type actions in ATLA because well the series is set during a war; but as Kakashi Gaiden and the most current chaptera/episodes of Naruto show, ninjas are perfectly capable of working during a war, frankly I'd say that even the genins of Naruto were more prepared for a combat on big scale than the Gaang at the start of the series. Nevermind veterans of a few actual world-class wars like the Jounins.

Also if any strategy has been proved effective in the ATLA world it is subterfuge and infiltration (Blue spirit rescuing Aang from inside a Firen nation stronghold, killing the moon spirit during the siege of the North, Azula's infiltration and subsequent takeover of Ba Sin Seh, the Day of the black sun) and while the ninjas in Naruto don't normally use them, we have evidence of special units traines to do just that. (ANBU corps, undertaker squad, it is implied other nations have their own equivalents; but I can only remember those two).

Ramza00
2012-06-19, 05:54 PM
Naruto is going to take this in a hearbeat even if you limited yourself to part 1 (for the sake of arguement I am considering kakashi gaiden as part 2)

If you limit Naruto to elemental ninjutsu and summoning the Avatar world may stand a chance but Naruto has far more variety than that. For the sake of arguement I will be trying to limit Naruto techinques to the most basic (Ranks E, D, C)

E Rank Techniques are considered to be known by every ninja and are required knowledge to graduate from the acadmey
D Ranks Techniques are considered to be known to every ninja that are Genin Level or Above
C Rank Techniques are considered Chunin Level
B Rank Techniques are used by Jonin or Chunin. The Shadow Clone Techinque is considered B Rank
A Rank Techniques are used by Kage and Jonin level ninja. Rasengan is considered an A Rank Technique
S Rank Techniques are used by Kage, many Akatsuki, and severly talented Jonin. Flying Thunder God and the Dead Demon Consuming Seal are considered S Rank Techniques.


Consider the Transformation technique a technique so basic that ever genin knows it (with the exception of Lee, rank is considered E). Just send 10 ninjas into an army or city at night and have them wreck havoc, they transform into people that look like avatar and when a person is not looking he is stabbed in the back. Every grunt can look identical to another person in only about 5 seconds. These ninjas can keep on switching identities and will kill at will even once the alarm is sounded.

A ninja will not fight one on one against an avatar charter for he has the body replacement technique (swap your body with a log or other item, rank is considered E) allowing him to dodge the elemental maelstrom long enough to get someplace and hide before perform some form of stealth.

Avatar characters have a lot of blasty skills, well they are not going to do blasty things when suddenly the Naruto characters use techinques like

Haze Clone Technique (rank D, insubstantual mirror images appear and look like they are attacking but there is nothing really there, it is quite easy for a single caster to make dozens of these fake clones.) The weaker clone technique (rank E) is such a basic technique that every Academy level ninja can create at least two duplicates.
Earth Release: Underground Projection Fish Technique (rank C, think meld into stone except you are aware of your surroundings and you can attack at will.). There are also similar techniques performed by weak characters such as the Demon Brothers (right before Zabuza).

So in effect the blasts will do nothing against the Naruto characters and the Avatar characters will have a good chance of accidentally attacking their own allies since their are so many fake clones, allowing the Naruto characters time to take out the Avatar characters at will.

Prime32
2012-06-19, 05:59 PM
Earth Release: Underground Projection Fish Technique (rank C, think meld into stone except you are aware of your surroundings and you can attack at will.). There are also similar techniques performed by weak characters such as the Demon Brothers (right before Zabuza).
Granted, whoever tries using that technique on Toph will die horribly.

Xondoure
2012-06-19, 06:07 PM
Well since nobody thinks avatar verse would stand a chance... what if we removed the speed disparity? Let's say average ninja have equal speed and reflexes to average benders. In this scenario, Toph becomes a more lethal and less insane version of Gaara. And I can't imagine much standing a chance against the Avatar State.

Aotrs Commander
2012-06-19, 06:36 PM
I refer you to my previous answer on a prior thread on the subject.

(Context of old thread) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6784491&postcount=1)

My words of wisdom. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6787497&postcount=18)

Ramza00
2012-06-19, 07:04 PM
Granted, whoever tries using that technique on Toph will die horribly.

Toph will probably be one of the first person taken out if the naruto characters know anything about her abilities. She is one of the few "sensing" characters in the Avatar world and thus would be targeted as a high priority, possible even higher than the avatar since she can disable many naruto tactics that use subterfuge or illusions based on sight.

Thing is a character such as Temari (girl with big fan) should be able to take her out by herself and Temari is just a chunin. How she is able to take out Toph is Temari's air attacks are stronger than anybody in the Avatar universe with the exception of the avatar state, that and Temari with her fan is able to do gliding similar to Aang does with his glider. Or Toph could be taken out by a character like Shikamaru a blind girl has no concepts of shadows and wouldn't be able to tell who is Shikamaru is compared to a normal person.

So hope that Toph "earthsight" is a fact that remains hidden for she is one of the strongest avatar characters, but as soon as her abilities are known a team or two jonins (4 or 8 people) will be sent out to slay her.

Dusk Eclipse
2012-06-19, 07:39 PM
I don't think Shikamaru would be a good match agains Toph, his combat style while definitely quite effective leaves him far too vulnerable to attacks by Toph, so unless he can sneak into Kagemane no jutsu range without touching the ground he is toasted againstel her, as he isn't shown to be good in physical combat.

Frankly I think that Rock Lee or Kiba+Akamaru are the best option as they can evade her attacks ans they pack enough punch to break through her defenses.

Jerthanis
2012-06-19, 08:06 PM
The pattern of Naruto has been the pattern of Shonen for years and years: 1.) Introduce totally unkillable foe, completely outside the bounds of possibility of being overcome, unique and unstoppable even by characters established as mentors.

2.) Then the main characters beat those unstoppable superbeings and thereafter are members of the class of beings known as unstoppable superbeings.

3.) Then they introduce a new level of superbeing, infinitely stronger than the previous one. Go to 2.

I'd say the average bender could go toe to toe with Zabuza and Haku, two legitimate threats to elite members of the Ninja world, but by now Naruto himself could probably take about a billion Zabuza and Hakus, and he isn't alone in this capability OR the most powerful guy around.

Cut out the God Mode characters and pit it against relative average power levels of the societies at large and Avatar probably wins, but with the super elites of both sides, I'd say the Narutoverse wins pretty handily.

Dusk Eclipse
2012-06-19, 08:15 PM
For the record Zombified Zabuza was still seen as a threat to the allied force of shinobi and even Kakashi had trouble with him. Though to be fair Zabuza and most mist ninja that rely on Kirigakure no jutsu enabled silent killing are hosed against any waterbender.

And Haku would make mince meat out of non-named benders in seconds, he is just that good (Sasuke could only see him with the sharingan and Naruto only manage to hurt him when he was powered by the Kyubi).

Starwulf
2012-06-19, 10:03 PM
I refer you to my previous answer on a prior thread on the subject.

(Context of old thread) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6784491&postcount=1)

My words of wisdom. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6787497&postcount=18)

Absolutely epic! I can totally see that happening, except the Hinata bit, though I'd love it to(No idea if it ever does, as I don't read Manga, and Shippuden got cancelled on Disney).

Aotrs Commander
2012-06-20, 04:09 AM
(No idea if it ever does, as I don't read Manga, and Shippuden got cancelled on Disney).

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. (Over here, we only got Naruto up until about just after the Tsunade Retrieval arc, though, and not at a steady rate of an epsiode per week either, so consider yourselves fortunate!) The only good news is that the DVD releases are continuing unabated (as my latest batch appears from wiki to take me past that point) and the next one is on pre-order, if you're that interested in it. (I did wonder why the DVD releases at one point were coming at the breakneck speed of every couple of months and then suddenly slowed to a crawl. But evidently, the DVDs are now the bleeding edge of the US dub!)

Xondoure
2012-06-20, 04:22 AM
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. (Over here, we only got Naruto up until about just after the Tsunade Retrieval arc, though, and not at a steady rate of an epsiode per week either, so consider yourselves fortunate!) The only good news is that the DVD releases are continuing unabated (as my latest batch appears from wiki to take me past that point) and the next one is on pre-order, if you're that interested in it. (I did wonder why the DVD releases at one point were coming at the breakneck speed of every couple of months and then suddenly slowed to a crawl. But evidently, the DVDs are now the bleeding edge of the US dub!)

Sub's got hulu I believe.

Ramza00
2012-06-20, 08:35 AM
Crunchyroll has naruto shippuden subs (think hulu for anime)
http://www.crunchyroll.com/naruto-shippuden

Flickerdart
2012-06-20, 09:12 AM
There's no real technological progress in Naruto, so I think it's fair to count technology seen in Shippuden as also available normally. Which gives the Narutoverse artillery. There's not much that Last Airbender benders can do against HE cannonballs - even Toph couldn't bend metal unless she was touching it, back then.

The Naruto side also has trains, and IIRC airships do show up in one of the movies, not to mention the fact that ninja are like Elder Scrolls PCs in that they run everywhere. So logistically they are going to be able to get more of the useful people into useful places. The various kind of clones, summons and puppets allow one ninja to be many, and create expendable mooks.

Naruto also has far more healers - every nation has medical corps, whereas water healing is limited to Katara and a handful of non-combat benders. The medical corps also have chakra pills that they can hand out. So the Avatarverse loses a prolonged conflict by virtue of casualties.

In terms of power level, the basic Fireball in Naruto is orders of magnitude larger than firebender blasts - the stuff Sasuke puts out as a pre-Academy kid would put non-comet Iroh to shame, and that's only one of a ninja's many techniques.

The main issue in pitting the worlds against one another, however, is assuming that they are united. The villains in Naruto are obscenely powerful, whereas the Fire Nation is just another country. Ozai may be a skilled bender, but when compared to even Zabuza he would crumble like a house of cards, and that was the first villain in the show. Pre time skip also means that all the jiinchuriki are still kicking around, and there's not really anything short of the Avatar himself (possibly) that could put down a Tailed Beast.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-06-20, 07:33 PM
There's no real technological progress in Naruto, so I think it's fair to count technology seen in Shippuden as also available normally. Which gives the Narutoverse artillery. There's not much that Last Airbender benders can do against HE cannonballs - even Toph couldn't bend metal unless she was touching it, back then.

I'm sorry what chapter is that in?

Sith_Happens
2012-06-20, 11:45 PM
I'm sorry what chapter is that in?

I think it's from filler. Which I assume that, just out of principle, we're not counting.

Flickerdart
2012-06-21, 09:06 AM
Yeah, it's from filler when Naruto is going to train with Bee. Why would we not count filler? It's still part of the world.

TSGames
2012-06-21, 09:08 AM
Yeah, it's from filler when Naruto is going to train with Bee. Why would we not count filler? It's still part of the world.

Isn't it most of the world?