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Leliel
2012-06-21, 10:33 PM
So, due to Random Omnipotent Being shenanigans (I blame Q), a mixed fleet of the Ur-Quan Hierarchy of Battle Thralls at their full strength has found itself in the Alpha Quadrant. Being the Ur-Quan, they immediately set about the slave-shield-and-forcible-conscription business, and gain a large foothold by the time Starfleet mounts a full counteroffensive.

So, here's the parameters of this conflict:

1) Full strength means the Kzer-Za have had the entire Shofixti race blow up in their faces, but before the Second Doctrinal War wears them down. This means Yehat, who for some reason actually provide battlefield support this time.

2) Diplomacy doesn't work. The Star Control races are infinitely more stubborn then Star Trek races to begin with, and indeed, it's likely an Ur-Quan can send a Betazed into a complete breakdown using their (implied) genetic memory to think about exactly what turned them into the self-righteous, jaded xenophobes they are today. By contrast, the sheer cartoonishness of the Ilwrath is likely to make them double over in laughter, but that doesn't help with the negotiations.

So, extreme variation in ships and tactics vs. varied technologies and sheer niceness. Who wins?

TSGames
2012-06-22, 05:28 AM
Definitely not a bad vs thread. But I'm not terribly sure who would win.

Tech levels are difficult to compare. They are both space faring, have shield technology, and have a lot of energy based weapons. Beyond that though, the Trek univese thrives on new technology and innovation, while the Ur-Quan are fighting over an ancient precursor ship, in essense they are trying to use old technology rather than innovating their own.

For that reason, I'd give it to the Federation. The Federation found a way to fight the Borg; in a prolonged war, they'd find a way to fight the Ur-Quan and win, though it would probably come at heavy cost following a large number of early defeats.

douglas
2012-06-22, 06:54 AM
You forgot to clarify one very important detail - is the Sa-Matra part of the force transported to the Alpha Quadrant?

Having a superweapon on their side, especially one with extreme range as one of its stated capabilities, could make a big difference. Their reluctance to use it might actually make it an even more potent advantage because the very first engagement it shows up in would be one where Starfleet has already gathered its forces into a giant fleet. Starfleet would have to work out how to counter it in the space of a single battle or face a crippling sudden reduction in forces.

If you do include the Sa-Matra in the challenge, I don't think Starfleet even has a chance. The actual capabilities of the Sa-Matra are never shown in-game - what you fight in the final battle is actually just some automated defenses the Ur-Quan built. The Sa-Matra is stated in in-game dialog to have fleet-destroying power at ranges greater than the maximum range of Chenjesu ship weapons. Chenjesu ships have enough range to hit anything on the entire combat map, so that means the Sa-Matra can blow away some of the toughest ships in the Star Control universe by the dozen from potentially interplanetary range. In order to beat it, Starfleet would have to either match that range or avoid detection while approaching, and do it with at least moon-destroying levels of weaponry - the bomb you use in SC2 was designed to remove unwanted small moons, and the Chmmr still had to boost its power before even a point blank detonation would be sufficient. I'm not an expert on Star Trek, but I don't think Starfleet has ever demonstrated that level of military ability.

If the Sa-Matra is not included, it's hard to say who would win. It depends a lot on how their technology compares and how large a portion of the Hierarchy fleet is there, both of which are very nebulous and hard to answer questions. The total number of ships the Hierarchy commands is extremely vague. The best indication we've got is that "hundreds" of Ur-Quan Dreadnoughts (the amount destroyed by the Shofixti suicide) was a major blow but not enough to stop them.

Acanous
2012-06-22, 07:06 AM
We'd need some sense of scale, as well, from the Star Control ships. I mean, the Federation has all kinds of ship sizes, and most of them are actually statted out by the meter. If the Star Control ships are Borg Cube big, the Federation is in some serious trouble. If a Dreadnaught is smaller than say, a Nebula class? The Federation is going to be bigger than the Star Control folks have ever seen fielded by modern tech.

As far as ship numbers goes, the Federation actually doesn't have a very big fleet (Unless you count ST Online, lol) and a loss of a dozen ships has traditionally been seen as a major blow. Hundreds would be crippling, if not an outright kill.
So basically, by saying it's only a portion of the imperial fleet, you've made it a size contest. Trek wins if their ships are bigger, Control wins if vice versa, on sheer numbers.

Leliel
2012-06-22, 07:50 AM
You forgot to clarify one very important detail - is the Sa-Matra part of the force transported to the Alpha Quadrant?

Yeah, my bad. No Sa-Matra. I want this to be fight on fairly even ground, so both fighting forces are about the same size.

douglas
2012-06-22, 08:55 AM
I just looked up some references, and apparently the Shofixti suicide destroyed at least 100, possibly multiple hundreds but it's not certain, of Ur-Quan Dreadnoughts, and however many it was represented roughly 1/3 of the Dreadnoughts in the Ur-Quan fleet. Other Hierarchy forces are not mentioned, so the various Battle Thralls were probably not present at that battle.

Lost Demiurge
2012-06-22, 12:01 PM
Hm. If the Ur-Quan have a good-sized fleet of battle thralls with them... Honestly, could go either way. Against just starfleet? Yeah, I think the Ur-Quan might just win.

Mind you, if the Klingons get in on the game or a few Borg Cubes wander into Ur-Quan conquered territory, **** gets REAL.

Mando Knight
2012-06-22, 12:12 PM
Which part of TNG? There's actually a decent amount of progression in their tech from TNG season 1 through Nemesis, mostly due to their conflicts with the Borg and the Dominion. The Defiant-class escort (the Defiant from DS9) and the Sovereign-class cruiser (the Enterprise-E) are examples of what Starfleet has developed to deal with those threats.

If a new power is threatening the galaxy, Starfleet also isn't above contacting the Klingons (who they're at least loosely allied with through the TNG era), and even the Romulans if necessary (who they're still generally in a Cold War state with). Both of those empires have much more heritage in designing battlecruisers, such as the Romulans' D'deridex and Valdore-type warbirds and the Klingons' Negh'Var and Vor'Cha warships.

Leliel
2012-06-22, 01:22 PM
Which part of TNG? There's actually a decent amount of progression in their tech from TNG season 1 through Nemesis, mostly due to their conflicts with the Borg and the Dominion. The Defiant-class escort (the Defiant from DS9) and the Sovereign-class cruiser (the Enterprise-E) are examples of what Starfleet has developed to deal with those threats.

Huh. Didn't think about that.

Let's say...Season 4?

Mando Knight
2012-06-22, 02:22 PM
So, the Federation has just recently weathered the devastation of one Borg Cube (as has the fleet of Klingon ships supporting Starfleet in the defense), and none of the technologies developed for battling the Borg or Dominion (the Defiant (NX-74205), quantum torpedoes, the Prometheus (NX-74913), etc.) have been developed yet. Captain Jean-Luc Picard is in command of the USS Enterprise-D.

Sisko is either between assignments (the Saratoga was destroyed in the battle of Wolf 359), or working on the early stages of the Defiant project at Utopia Planitia.

Janeway and Tuvok had recently (within the last two/three years) become close friends, but the Voyager has not been finished yet (I don't know if it's been even started... it's launched in 2371).

tensai_oni
2012-06-22, 02:46 PM
I think the Federation has this. As in, it's not even a fair fight.

Hierarchy vessels have crews of 8 to 42 members. Enterprise D? Over a thousand.

VUX Intruder has a very powerful (but for balance reasons, very short-ranged) weapon described as a Gigawatt Laser. I do not remember the exact numbers but they were given in the game, and they were pretty low - close to literal one gigawatt.
4.2 gigawatts is enough to power a small phaser array. Starfleet vessels have a LOT of phasers, and this means each individual one is as strong as one of the most damaging weapons Ur-Quan had.

Lastly, shields are standard issue for Starfleet ships. For Hierarchy ships, only Terminators have them. And they cannot shoot and have shields raised at the same time.

nyarlathotep
2012-06-22, 02:51 PM
I think the Federation has this. As in, it's not even a fair fight.

Hierarchy vessels have crews of 8 to 42 members. Enterprise D? Over a thousand.

VUX Intruder has a very powerful (but for balance reasons, very short-ranged) weapon described as a Gigawatt Laser. I do not remember the exact numbers but they were given in the game, and they were pretty low - close to literal one gigawatt.
4.2 gigawatts is enough to power a small phaser array. Starfleet vessels have a LOT of phasers, and this means each individual one is as strong as one of the most damaging weapons Ur-Quan had.

Lastly, shields are standard issue for Starfleet ships. For Hierarchy ships, only Terminators have them. And they cannot shoot and have shields raised at the same time.

I somehow doubt the crew numbers were literal but rather just an abstraction for hit point purposes. Afterall we're also assuming the ships aren't the size of planets, right, because if we were it would imply a level of automation far beyond anything Star Fleet has ever done. Also the actual spec on the gigawatt laser are never given, it is just called the gigawatt laser.

douglas
2012-06-22, 03:45 PM
Yeah, I think the crew thing and especially the way it acts as hit points should be dismissed as a game mechanic abstraction, right along with battles always being 1v1.

Power figures on things like the gigawatt laser and phaser arrays are more germane to the discussion, though there's a probable hefty dose of writers not doing the research and having no sense of scale with regard to such numbers, so I'm not sure if we should really take them literally. Assessments of the effects of weapons - how large a crater they make, etc. - would be a much better measure for comparison than made up numbers for power usage.

tensai_oni
2012-06-22, 04:53 PM
Considering it is talked about in the game itself, the crew numbers are not abstraction.

But let's put that aside. What is the best representation of a (scaled down) Starfleet ship in Star Control? Unsurprisingly, the Human Cruiser. Only without point defense lasers, but with shields, phasers and photon torpedoes - which are not nukes, but I assume a photon payload to be even more destructive than a primitive ex-20th century nuclear warhead. Anyway, the rough equivalent is the same - of a long-ranged, "sniper" type unit that fires its missiles from a distance.

And guess what? As far as Ur-Quan Hierarchy vessels go, the Cruiser is one of the best starships to face them all.

Dreadnaught - Outrun and barrage them with torpedoes from afar. They may deploy fighters due to lack of point defense, but if the vessel keeps retreating they will run out of fuel before reaching the target.
Podships - Keep your distance and fire. For extra fun, look as the podship's spore bomb hits the ship it was launched from.
Eluder - The Spathi probably won't make it to the battlefield in the first place, finding an excuse to hide in a hole somewhere safe.
Guardian - the only major danger due to its speed. The Starfleet captain should pray shields hold before the Androsynth vessel runs out of power.
Intruder - ridiculously easy to take down unless it warps in right atop of you.
Avenger - as the Dreadnaught, but with cloaking. This is surprisingly dangerous at least until Starfleet learns how to handle them.
Drone - see Intruder.
Terminator - in a straight-out slugfest, it loses because it can only fire OR raise shields, while Starfleet ships can do both at the same time.

I like Star Control but I don't see the Hierarchy winning this one, sorry.

Mando Knight
2012-06-22, 05:29 PM
which are not nukes, but I assume a photon payload to be even more destructive than a primitive ex-20th century nuclear warhead.

Their payload is apparently variable-yield, and measured in "isotons." The weapon uses a matter/antimatter warhead, and can be launched at warp speeds.

How consistently this is portrayed varies from writer to writer.

pendell
2012-06-25, 08:58 AM
What Tensai oni said. The federation starships are represented in the Star Control universe as the Earthling cruiser. They are meat on the table for the Ur-quan. Also, I think the Ur-quan are more psychologically suited to dominance and to conquest, while the Federation is a peacetime force. Starfleet is not a military organization; it is an armed exploration, diplomatic, and peacekeeping force.

If this were a star trek episode, it ends with Q deciding that the Federation has learned its lesson and sending the Ur-quan back to their home dimension with a flick of his wrist. That's pretty much happened in the first encounter with the Borg, before they were wussified.

ETA: When I say "meat on the table", it's because earthling cruisers have speed 4 while dreadnaughts have speed 5. I fought a LOT of battles from both sides and the cruiser can hurt the dreadnaught quite badly right up to the point the d-naught closes the distance and finishes the battle in under three seconds with multiple point-blank fusion blasts. No point using fighters , the cruiser's point-defense kills them quickly.

So IME it takes three cruisers to take down one dreadnaught. Minimum 2, really lucky only 1, maximum 5. And I think the Ur-quan have MANY more dreadnaughts than the Fed has warships. And that's not counting the auxiliary races.

Also, players of star control 1 (available on Steam) will see the fleet aspect of the U-q d-naught, and that is it utterly wrecks star system fortifications. It's other name is "Planetary siege unit", and it lives up to it's billing.

So we've got a force of armed discovery and exploration vessels vs. a dedicated combat force which outnumber them. My money is on the Ur-quan.

E AGAIN to add: Are we so sure there would even be a fight? With unlimited antimatter and replicator technology, the fed is a post-scarcity society. They don't need to explore space for any but recreational purposes. So why wouldn't they just accept the slave shield and live their happy contented lives rather than fight? It's the Klingons who are the warlike people in the ST universe, not the feds.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Lost Demiurge
2012-06-25, 11:54 AM
E AGAIN to add: Are we so sure there would even be a fight? With unlimited antimatter and replicator technology, the fed is a post-scarcity society. They don't need to explore space for any but recreational purposes. So why wouldn't they just accept the slave shield and live their happy contented lives rather than fight? It's the Klingons who are the warlike people in the ST universe, not the feds.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Oh yes, there would be a fight. Humans aren't gonna put up with slavery to aliens if there's any way at all, or any chance at all of winning a fight. Too many Picards and Kirks out there to just roll over and give up.

Mando Knight
2012-06-25, 06:11 PM
What Tensai oni said. The federation starships are represented in the Star Control universe as the Earthling cruiser. They are meat on the table for the Ur-quan. Also, I think the Ur-quan are more psychologically suited to dominance and to conquest, while the Federation is a peacetime force. Starfleet is not a military organization; it is an armed exploration, diplomatic, and peacekeeping force.

If this were a star trek episode, it ends with Q deciding that the Federation has learned its lesson and sending the Ur-quan back to their home dimension with a flick of his wrist. That's pretty much happened in the first encounter with the Borg, before they were wussified.

Or, if this was DS9 rather than TNG, it would take up the better part of the series.

Eldan
2012-06-29, 10:53 AM
E AGAIN to add: Are we so sure there would even be a fight? With unlimited antimatter and replicator technology, the fed is a post-scarcity society. They don't need to explore space for any but recreational purposes. So why wouldn't they just accept the slave shield and live their happy contented lives rather than fight? It's the Klingons who are the warlike people in the ST universe, not the feds.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Because of what else the Slave shield implies. Listen to Commander Hayes' story again. They take the "Fallow slave" part quite literally. Also, "pre-atomic savagery" and "destroy all structures and cultural artefacts on the planet older than 100 years".

Submitting to the slave shield means your history will be wiped out, as will all your technology.

Scowling Dragon
2012-06-29, 12:21 PM
I think this is like

WH4k VS that parody that was super nice.

One is meaner and tougher, but the other would win due to higher cooperation and advancement.

Lamech
2012-07-02, 06:00 PM
If nukes are a serious threat to there ships I don't see them doing to well against the even more powerful federation weapons. And are shields standard on their ships? That would be... painful to have to fight feds if they aren't.

TSGames
2012-07-02, 10:40 PM
If nukes are a serious threat to there ships I don't see them doing to well against the even more powerful federation weapons. And are shields standard on their ships? That would be... painful to have to fight feds if they aren't.

I lol'd, sir.

Lamech
2012-07-03, 12:52 PM
I lol'd, sir.

Umm... thank you. I'm still trying to figure out what I did though...:smalleek:

douglas
2012-07-03, 03:45 PM
Umm... thank you. I'm still trying to figure out what I did though...:smalleek:
I think it's a reference to the extremes of self-inflicted pain the Ur-Quan had to go through to beat the Dnyarri. After that, I don't think pain is really something they're very concerned about.

Eldan
2012-07-03, 04:41 PM
If nukes are a serious threat to there ships I don't see them doing to well against the even more powerful federation weapons. And are shields standard on their ships? That would be... painful to have to fight feds if they aren't.

I think one problem is that the technology is never really explained much, and we don't really know how much is game abstraction. THey fire energy projectiles much larger than the smaller ships, at least if the sprites count as actually to scale. And the ships survive it for a while. So there might be shields involved.

I'll have to go dig through the Pages of Now and Forever to see if there is any actual data.

Edit: not much technical data. But there is a picture of the Flagship which shows the approximate size.

http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/script/images/7/76/2c2_intro_building_sis.png

That's the SIS, a secret precursor ship, and probably significantly larger than even a dreadnaught. See the humans below it for scale. Not that big, actually.

TSGames
2012-07-03, 06:24 PM
Ur-Quan relied heavily on storytelling and the graphics and pictures were there to facilitate that. Any argument based on the art in the game is dubious at best.

theMycon
2012-07-04, 04:39 PM
I would say Star Control ONLY because of numbers. Starfleet definitely wins on a a 1:1 ship scale; but the Ur-Quan armada has a whole order of magnitude above them in number of ships. Aside from the dreadnoughts and Yehat, their fleet effectively consists of bigger versions of the away shuttles.

FWIW: I've always considered the Star-Control hitpoints equivalent to "bridge crew" or "highly trained, hard to replace people", since a single person controlling a star ship as well as 20 people can doesn't make too much sense, but one command person controlling as well as 20 I can see. The facts that the ships themselve needs no repair after a battle, and it is expressly stated that the only reason ur-quan dreadnoughts explode after all battle is due to a self-destruct mechanism makes me assume that shields are standard issue.

The Yehat Perfect Shield counts for quite a bit- Photon Torpedos won't be effective at all if it blocks those. Depending on the writer it's might be useless against a ship's laser (drained completely before the lasers even get warm), or be victory in a can (last until the dilithium crystals explode); I'll assume that lasers would outlast the shields. But having 10 yehat swarm a single federation warship, they could safely have most keep shooting while the ones under attack keep their shields going. That would be a rout.

I similarly see dreadnoughts being unable to go toe-to-toe with federation cruisers, but the concentrated firepower of a half-dozen would dismantle the enterprise easily.




http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/script/images/7/76/2c2_intro_building_sis.png
See the humans below it for scale.
Yes, that is larger much than dreadnoughts. Not "orders of magnitude" larger, but certainly larger.
If you look at the humans below it, rather than the ones in the foreground, that thing is frickin enormous. See the humans standing by the crates near the bottom-left? Now see the crates going into the "nose" of the ship? It's comparable to a mountain.

(For those who've never played- it's a skeleton ship at the start. As soon as you have the minerals to do so, it's a solid ship from the "spine" to the landing gear. You'd need to strip-mine multiple solar systems to do so, though.)

Eldan
2012-07-04, 06:42 PM
Actually, I'd say it's maybe, what, a hundred metres high, extrapolating from those tiny humans near the landing gear? That does not seem to compare to the enterprise, honestly.

Scowling Dragon
2012-07-04, 08:02 PM
I don't think that concentrated laser firepower can bring down a Federation ship. I just think that all their weapons are useless.

Your water pistols can't threaten a plastic shield. And concentrating them together doesn't do much.

Fedaration ships refer to lasers as a joke.

shadow_archmagi
2012-07-05, 12:54 AM
I don't think that concentrated laser firepower can bring down a Federation ship. I just think that all their weapons are useless.

Your water pistols can't threaten a plastic shield. And concentrating them together doesn't do much.

Fedaration ships refer to lasers as a joke.

If I recall correctly, this is a discussion that came up in the Star Wars vs Star Trek thread as well, and the general consensus was that the only reference to "Lasers" in Star Trek is in the worst episode of TNG in which they're specifically referring to the mining lasers on a tiny ship, which is like saying that x-wings are immune to lasers because an x-wing survived a hit from han's blaster.

On the other hand, we know the crew figures are not an abstraction because in at least one cutscene the game specifically says something like "And then the monster killed Johnson and Wilco!" and when it returns to normal play you're down two crew.

However, there's really no reason to believe that a starship would really require thousands of men on board. If you can cross the vastness of space, you can probably design a ship that's low on crew.

I'm going to give this one to the Ur-Quan, since from what I've seen of each universe, their ships seem roughly on par, but the Ur-Quan have vastly superior numbers and much more experience conquering the universe, while the Feds periodically fight defensive wars and then sign a treaty.

Also, with their army of war thralls, the Hierarchy has "Technological Variety" hands down. They've got the whole wagon, from cloaking to one-man fighters to regenerating fungusoid ships that shoot slow moving homing plasma spheres... it's also definitely unfair to say they're focused on reclaiming ancient technology rather than developing new stuff. They have that one giant macguffin they fight over, but they build their own new things too.

EDIT:

So, the Chmmr say that the Sa-Matra was able to annihilate their ships from across a solar system, and also that it had ten times their range. That means that Broodhomes are effective from roughly a tenth of a solar system away. Admittedly, that's not really a meaningful number since solar systems vary hugely, but if we take our own as a baseline, with its radius of approx 140 million kilometers, then that puts the Broodhomes as having ranges of around 14 million kilometers, which puts the longest range ship in the game as exceeding the longest ranged torpedo (8million km) I could find on Memory Alpha.

nyarlathotep
2012-07-05, 01:56 AM
On the other hand, we know the crew figures are not an abstraction because in at least one cutscene the game specifically says something like "And then the monster killed Johnson and Wilco!" and when it returns to normal play you're down two crew.


That actually was lander crew, and the landers, and I was pretty sure they added up have more crew than the ship they come from. Meaning that at least the flagships much be abstracted to some degree. Disregard if I misremembered the lander mechanics at 2 am.

douglas
2012-07-05, 02:46 AM
The landers do not have independent crew of their own when they are not on a planet surface. When you launch a lander, the lander's crew is immediately deducted from the flagship's crew. If you don't have enough flagship crew to fill it up, the lander will start out less than fully crewed. When the lander returns, however many crew survived the trip are then returned to your flagship's total.

The crew numbers do appear to be canonically literal. The way they work as ship hit points, complete with no degradation in performance whatsoever right up until the last one dies, makes no sense except as an abstraction, however. In any case, crew numbers are near useless for comparison purposes without knowing the degree of automation involved on each side. With good enough automation, a single person could run something like the Sa-Matra or the Death Star. We need some other standard for comparison.

Are there any figures on what kind of yield a nuke - or group of nukes - would need to take out a Starfleet ship in Star Trek? A Star Control Earth Cruiser's weapon is a guided nuclear missile, filled with a warhead left over from a futuristic reiteration of the Cold War if I recall correctly. If we could get reasonable guesses for the yield of that missile, and how many of them it would take to destroy Starfleet ships, its damage rating of 4 crew per hit could give us a conversion factor for comparing ship toughness and firepower.

Parra
2012-07-05, 12:00 PM
well Trek torpedos are measured in "isotons" with 25 Isotons described as being able to "destroy an entire city in seconds". According to Memory Alpha the DS9 Technical Manual puts a 25 isoton cap as a maximum photon torpedo yield and that its very roughly the same as 64megatons. However Voyager does go on to use 200 isoton photon torpedo and from late DS9 they are using quantum torpedo which start from 50 isotons and up.

As for just how many of those it would take to destroy a ship? Thats a little harder because ships are as tough as plot requires. But I would put it in the 3-4 photon hits in rapid succession (to allow very little shield recharge time) to take out a largish (galaxy class) ship

douglas
2012-07-05, 12:26 PM
Wow, google is fast to index things. My previous post showed up on my search results while looking for this information.

According to this (http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Cruiser), the Earth Cruiser missiles are based on this real world missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118A_Peacekeeper). If I'm reading it right, a single one of those missiles had 10 warheads, each with a 300 kiloton yield, for a total yield of 3 megatons per missile. So, 3 megatons = 4 crew in Star Control parlance.

Using your numbers, let's say Star Trek's weapons do 25 isotons, and that's really 64 megatons by real world units. That means one photon torpedo deals 85 crew damage, enough to one-shot any non-precursor ship in Star Control. Requiring 4 of those to take out a large Star Trek ship means the Ur-Quan would need about 340 damage worth of weapons fire per ship they face, which takes 57 shots from a Dreadnought's main battery.

Star Trek clearly has a large technological advantage here, but not so huge as to be completely insurmountable. Judging by the numbers from the Shofixti suicide, the Ur-Quan armada has something like 300 or 400 dreadnoughts. They likely have similar or even larger numbers of each and every Battle Thrall race's ships. They would take horrendous losses, but sheer numbers would let them overwhelm dozens, and maybe even a hundred or two, of Starfleet's best. I'm not sure Starfleet even has one hundred ships of that power, much less two hundred.

I think the Hierarchy wins this one.

Parra
2012-07-05, 02:07 PM
The Federations numbers are a bit plot orientated as well.
For example, during the Borg incident the Federation lost 39 ships at Wolf-359 and this was considered a hefty blow significant enough to warrant hiding the true scale from the Romulans for fear they would take advantage.

But towards the end of the Dominion War the Federation fleet size was estimated to be about 8,000 frontline ships across 12+ fleets.

Granted these are not all Galaxy Class starships, but they should be able to take a hit or 2 from photon torps before being destroyed

Lamech
2012-07-05, 03:06 PM
The Federations numbers are a bit plot orientated as well.
For example, during the Borg incident the Federation lost 39 ships at Wolf-359 and this was considered a hefty blow significant enough to warrant hiding the true scale from the Romulans for fear they would take advantage.

But towards the end of the Dominion War the Federation fleet size was estimated to be about 8,000 frontline ships across 12+ fleets.

Granted these are not all Galaxy Class starships, but they should be able to take a hit or 2 from photon torps before being destroyed

They presumably ramped up production at some point. And probably part of the loss was the trained crew. They probably shifted to a much stronger war footing as the big threats ramped up. Even if you have 400 fighting ships, if you need 300 of them to be running operations for your planets, scouting, ect. that's 39% of the fleet that can do stuff like keep track of New Romulan Starbases being built that you lost.

shadow_archmagi
2012-07-05, 06:55 PM
According to this (http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Cruiser), the Earth Cruiser missiles are based on this real world missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118A_Peacekeeper). If I'm reading it right, a single one of those missiles had 10 warheads, each with a 300 kiloton yield, for a total yield of 3 megatons per missile. So, 3 megatons = 4 crew in Star Control parlance.


Minor quibble: The Cruiser's missiles are the ones stored in Earth's Peace Vaults after the war of 2015- Which means that these missiles are several decades more developed and should have a yield of considerably more than 3 megatons.

Flickerdart
2012-07-05, 10:00 PM
The crew numbers do appear to be canonically literal. The way they work as ship hit points, complete with no degradation in performance whatsoever right up until the last one dies, makes no sense except as an abstraction, however. In any case, crew numbers are near useless for comparison purposes without knowing the degree of automation involved on each side. With good enough automation, a single person could run something like the Sa-Matra or the Death Star. We need some other standard for comparison.
If you take the crew numbers as literal, then you can't stop halfway. Either they're abstract, or there's near-perfect automation.