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MCerberus
2012-07-02, 10:23 PM
Alright, so you have a character. Maybe they fly in or out of the background, maybe they're pretty central. You don't know much about them, how they are, but the character speaks for themselves....

That is until they start diving into the back-story.

Suddenly that mercenary that is pretty dark but agreeable is some weird chosen one saint or something stupid.

Maybe it's a case of a complete failure of 'show don't tell' in which you're just told stuff that is contrary to their personality.

Or maybe that fallen bad guy was once an unlikable idiot who AAAAAAAAAAAAANGST'd for an entire trilogy.




So, any characters you think fall into this category? Any that avoid this? To wit, and this is where it was split from another thread: Samus from "Other M".

Man on Fire
2012-07-02, 10:29 PM
I haven't played Metroid, any, tell me what's wrong with other m because I keep hearing about it and I have no idea what people are talking about.

TSGames
2012-07-02, 10:33 PM
The main character of L.A. Noire; he was pretty cool despite his flaws. Through delving into his backstory, they really just took a massive steaming dump on him right before the end of the game.

MCerberus
2012-07-02, 10:34 PM
I haven't played Metroid, any, tell me what's wrong with other m because I keep hearing about it and I have no idea what people are talking about.

History time then
Alright, way back in the day Samus was the character that ran around and blew up bad guys, no real personality. In an easter-egg twist if you beat the game fast enough it's revealed Samus is female.

About a million games later, Samus doesn't speak much still. She's a BA bounty hunter that explodes stuff, all of her personality is implied. Other M is the 'always been my vision' for the series. You know, like Lucas does.

Samus turns into something that can mildly put it a much weaker character. Then she narrates a whole bunch of heavy-handed talk about motherhood (because she's a woman, get it) and asks permission to use the gear she's always had because she... wants permission? From this emotionally distant guy they keep telling us Samus has some sort of relationship with?

Anarion
2012-07-02, 10:38 PM
Bloody ninja pony making a new thread while I was in the middle of posting in ponythread. *grumble*

Anyway, what I find most disturbing is that they really thought Samus didn't have a personality because she hadn't spoken before. We knew that she did dangerous missions alone, we'd seen her relationship with the Chozo, and playing through the game demonstrated a lot of personality. Solving the various puzzles demonstrated ingenuity, and the fact that Samus often blew things up to make new paths also shows a certain willingness to take the direct approach. The creation of the scan visor for the Prime series also expanded Samus to someone who worked very carefully and thoroughly, making sure that she knew all the details and then taking the best approach, whether that meant sneaking around or blowing down the front door.

That may not give you a completely fleshed out character, but all that stuff does define a person, and they went and ignored it all.

Devonix
2012-07-02, 10:41 PM
History time then
Alright, way back in the day Samus was the character that ran around and blew up bad guys, no real personality. In an easter-egg twist if you beat the game fast enough it's revealed Samus is female.

About a million games later, Samus doesn't speak much still. She's a BA bounty hunter that explodes stuff, all of her personality is implied. Other M is the 'always been my vision' for the series. You know, like Lucas does.

Samus turns into something that can mildly put it a much weaker character. Then she narrates a whole bunch of heavy-handed talk about motherhood (because she's a woman, get it) and asks permission to use the gear she's always had because she... wants permission? From this emotionally distant guy they keep telling us Samus has some sort of relationship with?

Not just that
In the Prime series Samus is a well respected badass bounty hunter who'd saved entires planets, fought off alien invasions and Lead entire armies of the Federation.

Samus effectively outranks Adam in Other M and yet she's taking orders from him.

OracleofWuffing
2012-07-02, 10:42 PM
I have a friend that keeps suggesting I play Other M (but only for the gameplay and not the plot).

That said, Shadow the Hedgehog, quickly recapping the events from Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, and Shadow the Hedgehog (and a smattering of Sonic Battle):
He's the Ultimate Life Form, except not really, except he really is the Ultimate Life Form. He dies, but then wakes up and goes on a quest where he finds out he's actually just one of countless robot clones. But actually he's not a robot, and he never really died because Dr. Robotnik saved him from dying offscreen. He's powered by alien blood because the guy that created him knew that the aliens from which he got the alien blood would invade Earth and he would be the only guy to save the world. Also, there's another Ultimate Life Form, but everyone beat him up. (And if you want to include Sonic Chronicles, that Ultimate Life Form is actually just one of countless clones...)

And then there's... Um... Basically everyone in the Mega Man X universe. I mean, they're mostly awesome games, but just trying to get the storylines of everything altogether makes my head hurt.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-02, 10:45 PM
I haven't played Metroid, any, tell me what's wrong with other m because I keep hearing about it and I have no idea what people are talking about.

Essentially, before Other M, Samus was one of the best Video Game Characters in existance, no argument. She was a hero, and a pretty good argument against whatever your gender based argument was, because she was awesome. Being a girl wasn't a weakness at all. She was an idol.

Other M hurt her character. Granted, her character, for the first few Metroid games, was pretty flat, but so were most. But Other M ... just ... I honestly don't have words for it. It's just terrible the derailment of who she is and how strong, not simply in combat, but in depth, she is that Other M did.

To put it bluntly, they made Samus a Bitch. And that's wrong.

MCerberus
2012-07-02, 10:55 PM
I have a friend that keeps suggesting I play Other M (but only for the gameplay and not the plot).

That said, Shadow the Hedgehog, quickly recapping the events from Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, and Shadow the Hedgehog (and a smattering of Sonic Battle):
He's the Ultimate Life Form, except not really, except he really is the Ultimate Life Form. He dies, but then wakes up and goes on a quest where he finds out he's actually just one of countless robot clones. But actually he's not a robot, and he never really died because Dr. Robotnik saved him from dying offscreen. He's powered by alien blood because the guy that created him knew that the aliens from which he got the alien blood would invade Earth and he would be the only guy to save the world. Also, there's another Ultimate Life Form, but everyone beat him up. (And if you want to include Sonic Chronicles, that Ultimate Life Form is actually just one of countless clones...)

And then there's... Um... Basically everyone in the Mega Man X universe. I mean, they're mostly awesome games, but just trying to get the storylines of everything altogether makes my head hurt.

And this is why I checked out of Sonic games after the Adventures.
Except those delightful gameboy ones.

Now, expanding past games, anyone remember the Stallone "Judge Dredd"? That one got stupid rather quickly.

Devonix
2012-07-02, 10:56 PM
Essentially, before Other M, Samus was one of the best Video Game Characters in existance, no argument. She was a hero, and a pretty good argument against whatever your gender based argument was, because she was awesome. Being a girl wasn't a weakness at all. She was an idol.

Other M hurt her character. Granted, her character, for the first few Metroid games, was pretty flat, but so were most. But Other M ... just ... I honestly don't have words for it. It's just terrible the derailment of who she is and how strong, not simply in combat, but in depth, she is that Other M did.

To put it bluntly, they made Samus a Bitch. And that's wrong.

and the plotholes My god the plotholes. The only way it makes any sense is to retcon out the entire Metroid Prime series which was originally very much canon. and even then it makes no sense.

Anarion
2012-07-02, 11:01 PM
I have a friend that keeps suggesting I play Other M (but only for the gameplay and not the plot).

That said, Shadow the Hedgehog, quickly recapping the events from Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, and Shadow the Hedgehog (and a smattering of Sonic Battle):
He's the Ultimate Life Form, except not really, except he really is the Ultimate Life Form. He dies, but then wakes up and goes on a quest where he finds out he's actually just one of countless robot clones. But actually he's not a robot, and he never really died because Dr. Robotnik saved him from dying offscreen. He's powered by alien blood because the guy that created him knew that the aliens from which he got the alien blood would invade Earth and he would be the only guy to save the world. Also, there's another Ultimate Life Form, but everyone beat him up. (And if you want to include Sonic Chronicles, that Ultimate Life Form is actually just one of countless clones...)

And then there's... Um... Basically everyone in the Mega Man X universe. I mean, they're mostly awesome games, but just trying to get the storylines of everything altogether makes my head hurt.

I actually think that Shadow's storyline was no more complex than many other characters in different and still respected game series. It's certainly way more simple than any Final Fantasy game ever, and those continue to sell like hotcakes.
Shadow had two big problems
First, his story in Sonic Adventure 2 was complete and his death was about as meaningful as you're ever going to get with a cartoon hedgehog. Bringing him back felt like cheap fan pandering. Second, why in god's name would you give him a gun? Just...why?

OracleofWuffing
2012-07-02, 11:05 PM
I actually think that Shadow's storyline was no more complex than many other characters in different and still respected game series.
Oh, agreed. It's actually less complex than a few other regular characters, and very simple in comparison if you branch outside of the video games (Tails is the son of Merlin!). But, well, they kept wanting to tell us more about it, when there really wasn't much to tell. :smallwink:

I wish there was an easily accessible archive of video game interviews or something. I could have sworn one of the post-SA2 interviews I had read stated that they wanted to leave Shadow's fate open-ended, to judge the fanbase's reaction to the character, and then a couple of years later, another Sonic Heroes interview talked about how it was always their intention to bring Shadow back.:smalltongue:

Lord Seth
2012-07-02, 11:10 PM
I didn't have any problem with Shadow's backstory. Then again, I seem to be one of the few people who liked the game Shadow the Hedgehog...

INoKnowNames
2012-07-02, 11:15 PM
And this is why I checked out of Sonic games after the Adventures.
Except those delightful gameboy ones.

Until Shadow decided to pick up a Gun, and ignoring that as best as you can, I've rather enjoyed the Sonic Games. Unleashed needs more gameplay and less menus, but it was the lowest point of the series, and wasn't all bad. 06 Retconned itself, and does not count.


I have a friend that keeps suggesting I play Other M (but only for the gameplay and not the plot).

That said, Shadow the Hedgehog, quickly recapping the events from Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, and Shadow the Hedgehog (and a smattering of Sonic Battle):
He's the Ultimate Life Form, except not really, except he really is the Ultimate Life Form. He dies, but then wakes up and goes on a quest where he finds out he's actually just one of countless robot clones. But actually he's not a robot, and he never really died because Dr. Robotnik saved him from dying offscreen. He's powered by alien blood because the guy that created him knew that the aliens from which he got the alien blood would invade Earth and he would be the only guy to save the world. Also, there's another Ultimate Life Form, but everyone beat him up. (And if you want to include Sonic Chronicles, that Ultimate Life Form is actually just one of countless clones...)

And then there's... Um... Basically everyone in the Mega Man X universe. I mean, they're mostly awesome games, but just trying to get the storylines of everything altogether makes my head hurt.

.... although yes, the tangled mess that is Shadow's backstory needs to be burned.

I stoped after x6 because I didn't have the technology to continue. I thought the big issue with the series was that they tried to replace Megaman in x7 and x8..

I think I'll play Other M for the gameplay soon. I heard that's one thing that was done right.


Bloody ninja pony making a new thread while I was in the middle of posting in ponythread. *grumble*

Anyway, what I find most disturbing is that they really thought Samus didn't have a personality because she hadn't spoken before. We knew that she did dangerous missions alone, we'd seen her relationship with the Chozo, and playing through the game demonstrated a lot of personality. Solving the various puzzles demonstrated ingenuity, and the fact that Samus often blew things up to make new paths also shows a certain willingness to take the direct approach. The creation of the scan visor for the Prime series also expanded Samus to someone who worked very carefully and thoroughly, making sure that she knew all the details and then taking the best approach, whether that meant sneaking around or blowing down the front door.

That may not give you a completely fleshed out character, but all that stuff does define a person, and they went and ignored it all.

Really, it says a lot that an interpretation of a 1st Person Shooter does more for a silent protagonist's personality than the game in which she first actively speaks in. I could personally stand Samus to seem motherly, quiet and rserved but still friendly to others, and an actual relationship with Adam. That's honestly the feel I've gotten from her over the years; that quiet yet powerful person who takes charge and responsibility.

But Samus is no one's bitch.


and the plotholes My god the plotholes. The only way it makes any sense is to retcon out the entire Metroid Prime series which was originally very much canon. and even then it makes no sense.

..... ARE YOU INSANE!?! DON'T RETCON SOME OF THE BEST PARTS! RETCON THE PLOTHOLE INFESTED CHARACTER DERAILING PIECE OF CRAP!


I actually think that Shadow's storyline was no more complex than many other characters in different and still respected game series. It's certainly way more simple than any Final Fantasy game ever, and those continue to sell like hotcakes.
Shadow had two big problems
First, his story in Sonic Adventure 2 was complete and his death was about as meaningful as you're ever going to get with a cartoon hedgehog. Bringing him back felt like cheap fan pandering. Second, why in god's name would you give him a gun? Just...why?

Hey, Fan Pandering isn't that bad. Shadow was awesome. More Shadow isn't terrible. He is the Ultimate Life Form, falling through the stratosphere wouldn't be enough to kill him (though it does make you wonder how he'd take damage from... anything).

But I completely agree that he did not need a Gun. At all. Using his Chaos Powers would have been -more- than enough.


(Tails is the son of Merlin!).

-what-.


I didn't have any problem with Shadow's backstory. Then again, I seem to be one of the few people who liked the game Shadow the Hedgehog...

I didn't mind the gameplay too bad, and the present time story wasn't bad either. I just think his story didn't need to be as complicated.

Lord Seth
2012-07-02, 11:18 PM
Oh, agreed. It's actually less complex than a few other regular characters, and very simple in comparison if you branch outside of the video games (Tails is the son of Merlin!).Merlin wasn't Tails's father, he was his uncle.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-02, 11:19 PM
Merlin wasn't Tails's father, he was his uncle.

... still -what-.

Lord Seth
2012-07-02, 11:20 PM
... still -what-.What's so weird about it?

Devonix
2012-07-02, 11:27 PM
Yeah Comics wise Tails and Knuckles are Waaaay more importaint than they are in the games.

Tails is the chosen one.
Knuckles is pretty much Jesus.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-02, 11:34 PM
What's so weird about it?

Are you seriously telling me that somewhere in the games, Tails, Miles Prowler "Tails", is seriously somehow related to Merlin the Wizard?

Or am I (Hopefully) misunderstanding?


Yeah Comics wise Tails and Knuckles are Waaaay more importaint than they are in the games.

Tails is the chosen one.
Knuckles is pretty much Jesus.

I never got on the Comics... I was just all about the games.

Lord Seth
2012-07-02, 11:38 PM
Are you seriously telling me that somewhere in the games, Tails, Miles Prowler "Tails", is seriously somehow related to Merlin the Wizard?

Or am I (Hopefully) misunderstanding?I think you're thinking of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin) Merlin. The Merlin in question is this (http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Merlin_Prower) guy.

EDIT: Also, we're talking about the comics, not the games (the comics Merlin is a comics-only character).

Devonix
2012-07-02, 11:39 PM
Are you seriously telling me that somewhere in the games, Tails, Miles Prowler "Tails", is seriously somehow related to Merlin the Wizard?

Or am I (Hopefully) misunderstanding?



I never got on the Comics... I was just all about the games.


Well Sonic comics are to put it mildly... involved. There are tons of characters, character sub plots, family histories excetera. Basically Mobius is Earth in the distant future so a loooot of stuff happened to make it the way it is.


Also Knuckles isn't Jesus, he's just an aligory for one to his people.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-02, 11:40 PM
I think you're thinking of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin) Merlin. The Merlin in question is this (http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Merlin_Prower) guy.

Oh. That's not so bad then.

In other news, I can't see the word Mobius without this theme entering my head... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_BKi6KPKJQ)

Lord Seth
2012-07-02, 11:48 PM
Also Knuckles isn't Jesus, he's just an aligory for one to his people.Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that plot point really limited to just the Return to Angel Island arc (issues 138-141)?

Unless he was referring to the more basic point that Knuckles died at one point and then came back.

Devonix
2012-07-02, 11:51 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that plot point really limited to just the Return to Angel Island arc (issues 138-141)?

Unless he was referring to the more basic point that Knuckles died at one point and then came back.

thought it lasted a bit longer than that. The dieing, coming back leading his people thing. but yeah it was mostly that story and now with most of them gone but the dark legion doesn't really matter now.

Mando Knight
2012-07-02, 11:55 PM
Really, it says a lot that an interpretation of a 1st Person Shooter does more for a silent protagonist's personality than the game in which she first actively speaks in. I could personally stand Samus to seem motherly, quiet and rserved but still friendly to others, and an actual relationship with Adam. That's honestly the feel I've gotten from her over the years; that quiet yet powerful person who takes charge and responsibility.

But Samus is no one's bitch.

Technically, Super, Fusion, and Zero Mission all had "Samus thinks to herself" parts, with Fusion having the most as well as some dialogue between her and Adam.

Really, other than the occasional bad timing on unlocks (the unlock system itself I didn't mind, as she didn't actually have any authority there: Adam's squad was already at the ship and Samus only went there to respond to the distress call) and the couple of emotional breakdowns (which, after a fashion, do make a bit of sense, as she's still recovering emotionally from the events of Super, where she Mama Bear'd a planet into debris because the Pirates took her "baby"... and then her antagonists reappear again after their otherwise very definitely final deaths), I was overall fairly satisfied with the game. Not my favorite in the series, but I thought it was an overall decent title.

OracleofWuffing
2012-07-02, 11:57 PM
I think you're thinking of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin) Merlin. The Merlin in question is this (http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Merlin_Prower) guy.

EDIT: Also, we're talking about the comics, not the games (the comics Merlin is a comics-only character).
Ah, thanks. I just had the comic where Knuckles meets Merlin Prower, and he offhandedly mentions his name, so I made the logical connection given their shared last names. :smallsmile: To be fair, though, my understanding of the comics is that they've been trying to cut down on the "what" factor. The chief writer for the comics (after issue 150 or so) is Ian Flynn, he posts on SomethingAwful as ElPottoGrande occasionally, and I remember a few of his posts about cutting out or sanitizing all the dangling craziness.

Oh, and then there's the Fleetwood comic series, where becoming Super Sonic turns Sonic evil...

TheLaughingMan
2012-07-03, 12:17 AM
As far as Other M goes, I think this article (http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/gaming/metroid-other-m-the-elephant/article.html) is the one that most thoroughly explains the problems with Samus and Adam. Food for thought.

Eakin
2012-07-03, 01:39 AM
Technically, Super, Fusion, and Zero Mission all had "Samus thinks to herself" parts, with Fusion having the most as well as some dialogue between her and Adam.

Really, other than the occasional bad timing on unlocks (the unlock system itself I didn't mind, as she didn't actually have any authority there: Adam's squad was already at the ship and Samus only went there to respond to the distress call) and the couple of emotional breakdowns (which, after a fashion, do make a bit of sense, as she's still recovering emotionally from the events of Super, where she Mama Bear'd a planet into debris because the Pirates took her "baby"... and then her antagonists reappear again after their otherwise very definitely final deaths), I was overall fairly satisfied with the game. Not my favorite in the series, but I thought it was an overall decent title.

I never got why Samus was supposed to have a motherly connection with the baby metroid. At the end of Metroid 2 she shoved it in a jar and dropped it off at a Federation Lab to be studied, and only went back because the lab was suddenly attacked by Space Pirates. Yes, it imprinted on her but that's a rather one-way relationship. You're extrapolating a whole lot from "she didn't murder it" (You meaning Other M, not playgrounders)

This example's a bit more tongue in cheek, but Link from the old cartoon "WELL EXCUUUUUUSE ME, PRINCESS!" and the Cd-i games. AKA "why silent protagonists should stay that way"

Xondoure
2012-07-03, 01:46 AM
Wasn't there a metroid manga that was sort of okay?

pffh
2012-07-03, 02:18 AM
How about Darth Vader. Before the prequels he was this badass that we knew little about except for random fragments of information from Yoda and Obi Wan but after them he's just a whiny kid that got played with and fooled by the Emperor.

Prime32
2012-07-03, 06:15 AM
Wasn't there a metroid manga that was sort of okay?Funnily enough, Samus's personality wasn't that different from Other M. It's just that the manga is set at a point where she was a teen with zero combat experience, so it makes sense. Oh, and Ridley gets to Samus through Break Them By Talking (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakThemByTalking) (assisted by people who Samus trusted all her life suddenly betraying her), not by showing up. And she seems to get over it in the ending. And she disobeys orders constantly.

Man on Fire
2012-07-03, 07:03 AM
How about Darth Vader. Before the prequels he was this badass that we knew little about except for random fragments of information from Yoda and Obi Wan but after them he's just a whiny kid that got played with and fooled by the Emperor.

"But then you told them all my history. And took away my mansculinity. And had my character potrayed by sub-pair actosr." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6rblxVf7KQ&list=FLaeoX3CApple3apt_n02XTA&index=4&feature=plpp_video).

Anyway, Superhero comics have some characters with really convoluded backstory - Power Girl had so many retcons that they simply decided Universe is screwing over with her and Hawkman is poster boy on tvtropes Continuity Snarl article. There are some dumb decissions here and there that tains character's backstories - Arrowtette suddenly revealing to have an affair with her mother's fiancee or Frank Miller making Catwoman prostitute, Chuck Austen retconning one-time incident of Henry Pym slapping Wasp into long history of abuse, Electro turning gay after being raped in a prison, things like that. Also, Summers family - a lot of great characters, but when you get to their history of Phoenixes, deaths, clones, dying clones, resurections, alternate realits, possible futures, time trael, aliens, Living Monoliths, demons, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, technoviruses, third Summers brother, REAL third Summers brother. Same with Wolverine really - Weapon X history was okay, but they keept pulling more and more until it turned into convoluded mess with Logan having evil son, female clone (through I like her as character) and being really member of half-wolf species secretely manipulated by fricking Romulus, as in, guy who created Roman Empire. Deadpool has this problem too - many writers played with idea he may be not real Wade Wilson to the point finally Deadpool himself decided he doesn't care anymore. And from characters I actually like - all Ghost Rider retcons, through they somehow managed to make it made sense, for now.

Also, wrestling has one character with terribly convoluded backstory - Kane. It was apparently so bad they hired somebody to write novel to explain it. And that novel made it worse.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-03, 08:56 AM
Technically, Super, Fusion, and Zero Mission all had "Samus thinks to herself" parts, with Fusion having the most as well as some dialogue between her and Adam.

Monologues are a bit different from actually interracting with people, though. Granted, you got me with the computer conversation.


Really, other than the occasional bad timing on unlocks (the unlock system itself I didn't mind, as she didn't actually have any authority there: Adam's squad was already at the ship and Samus only went there to respond to the distress call) and the couple of emotional breakdowns (which, after a fashion, do make a bit of sense, as she's still recovering emotionally from the events of Super, where she Mama Bear'd a planet into debris because the Pirates took her "baby"... and then her antagonists reappear again after their otherwise very definitely final deaths), I was overall fairly satisfied with the game. Not my favorite in the series, but I thought it was an overall decent title.

.... I really don't think I can judge all too badly, since I don't know all that much. But really, wouldn't one be -pissed- that their life long enemy returned after having defeated them, rather than breaking down? I really don't see Adult Samus being weak like that...


Oh, and then there's the Fleetwood comic series, where becoming Super Sonic turns Sonic evil...

I wonder if that comic may have been about the time they were trying to decide if becoming a Super Saiyan was a good thing or a bad thing. :smalltongue:


As far as Other M goes, I think this article (http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/gaming/metroid-other-m-the-elephant/article.html) is the one that most thoroughly explains the problems with Samus and Adam. Food for thought.

I honestly never thought that a Bounty Hunter would need to take orders from the Government... ... I think there's actually a lot about the Metroid series that may be slipping my mind.... I should play all the games again!


I never got why Samus was supposed to have a motherly connection with the baby metroid. At the end of Metroid 2 she shoved it in a jar and dropped it off at a Federation Lab to be studied, and only went back because the lab was suddenly attacked by Space Pirates. Yes, it imprinted on her but that's a rather one-way relationship. You're extrapolating a whole lot from "she didn't murder it" (You meaning Other M, not playgrounders)

You can't say that you didn't want revenge for your child when it saved your life from Mother Brain. Don't lie.


This example's a bit more tongue in cheek, but Link from the old cartoon "WELL EXCUUUUUUSE ME, PRINCESS!" and the Cd-i games. AKA "why silent protagonists should stay that way"

Does something count for this thread if the source is accepted by Word of God to be Non-canon? If so, I agree, though I've seen a few manga and such that gave Link a bit of a personality that weren't bad.

.... though now I'm suddenly reminded of the Super Mario Bros Movie.....


Wasn't there a metroid manga that was sort of okay?


Funnily enough, Samus's personality wasn't that different from Other M. It's just that the manga is set at a point where she was a teen with zero combat experience, so it makes sense. Oh, and Ridley gets to Samus through Break Them By Talking (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakThemByTalking) (assisted by people who Samus trusted all her life suddenly betraying her), not by showing up. And she seems to get over it in the ending. And she disobeys orders constantly.

Thanks for that, Prime. I definitely gotta read that again. I remember that... a game set with Samus growing up with the Chozo and being not quite the hero we know her as now, -that- would be an interesting way to get into her personality. Watch her develop as a hero before she first heads to Zebes...


How about Darth Vader. Before the prequels he was this badass that we knew little about except for random fragments of information from Yoda and Obi Wan but after them he's just a whiny kid that got played with and fooled by the Emperor.

I'm one of the minority that seems to enjoy the prequels... although I agree he was a bit too.. whiny as he was asending... which is why Darths and Droids is awesome. Anakin is the man behind the man, by one of the players usurping control from the emperor, and manipulating the Jedi Councel the entire time. And it is awesome.

Prime32
2012-07-03, 11:40 AM
On Adam Malkovich in the Metroid manga:

Adam: "So you're following your personal emotions and abandoning your duty?"
Samus: *points her Arm Cannon at his face* "Don't try to stop me! I'm going to Zebes!"
Adam: *unflinching* "You have 48 hours."
Samus: "...huh?"
Adam: "The army will foray in 48 hours, Federation time. That is all." *walks off*


One of Samus's friends: "My fat stupid mother can run faster than you can get here! What are they doing? Get your @#$%& fleet the @#$%& over here!"
Adam: "This is Federation Special Ops Battleship Vixin IV. We have come in response to your distress signal, please respond. You will report your full name and rank immediately, or I will take my @#$%& fleet and get the @#$%& out of here."

Samus: "What's so funny?"
Adam: "Nothing... I just thought to myself that you don't seem very ladylike."
Samus: *snorts* "What's this all of a sudden? Don't get all creepy on me."
Adam: "It's simple... you should remember what you are when you're not a warrior. Samus, that's something lost in you lately."
Samus: "You overstep your bounds. I'm not one of your Federation officers any more. I'm a bounty hunter. When we had to run from Zebes and defeat the Space Pirates alone, I decided what I was to be from then on. And I am a warrior!"


Random guy: "Commander, Ridley's ship has prepared to warp. It's destination is Zebes. Thank goodness! It looks like they're retreating."
Adam: "What!? No, something's happened on Zebes... Samus! No, we can't let back yet! After them!"
Random guy: "B-but it's difficult to make such urgent calculations with the ship in this condition. W- We can't-"
Adam: "Don't tell me we can't! We must!"


At one point Samus shows up out of the blue attacking the guards at the GF chairman's speech, yelling at Adam to destroy the flowers the chairman just got presented. Adam does so without a second thought. Samus then charges him an exorbitant fee for the warning.

Also:

Ridley: "Kneel before me! A crybaby like you could never accomplish anything!"
Samus: "Open your eyes! I'm not the person I was before!"
*Samus kills Ridley and roars at the sky*

Eakin
2012-07-03, 01:07 PM
.... I really don't think I can judge all too badly, since I don't know all that much. But really, wouldn't one be -pissed- that their life long enemy returned after having defeated them, rather than breaking down? I really don't see Adult Samus being weak like that...

I honestly never thought that a Bounty Hunter would need to take orders from the Government... ... I think there's actually a lot about the Metroid series that may be slipping my mind.... I should play all the games again!

You can't say that you didn't want revenge for your child when it saved your life from Mother Brain. Don't lie.

Thanks for that, Prime. I definitely gotta read that again. I remember that... a game set with Samus growing up with the Chozo and being not quite the hero we know her as now, -that- would be an interesting way to get into her personality. Watch her develop as a hero before she first heads to Zebes...


You can read the manga here (http://metroid.retropixel.net/comics/metroidmanga/)

As for the other points I quoted, I agree that there's certainly no reason for Samus to break down since this is an enemy she's killed FOUR TIMES already. I can't believe she'd be more than moderately annoyed that he keeps showing up again at this point.

Well, if the government had hired her for a mission she'd probably have to take orders (although then she's more of a mercenary than a bounty hunter, although I think the mercenary label fits what she actually does better than bounty hunter anyway)

It wasn't her child. It was more like her pet. Yes, she may be sad about what happened but she takes it way WAY too far. Before the end of the first cut scene you go from feeling bad for her over what happened to wishing she'd just shut up about it (the delivery and writing are a big part of the problem, too). I really can't help but feel like if she were a guy that story would play out differently and she'd be a whole lot more stoic over the whole thing. But the director decided that she had to be ruled by her emotions because, hey, she has a uterus.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-03, 01:33 PM
You can read the manga here (http://metroid.retropixel.net/comics/metroidmanga/)

YAY! Thank you!


As for the other points I quoted, I agree that there's certainly no reason for Samus to break down since this is an enemy she's killed FOUR TIMES already. I can't believe she'd be more than moderately annoyed that he keeps showing up again at this point.

The most annoying enemies seem to always be the ones that never stay dead...


Well, if the government had hired her for a mission she'd probably have to take orders (although then she's more of a mercenary than a bounty hunter, although I think the mercenary label fits what she actually does better than bounty hunter anyway)

That's what I was thinking, but I'm being dumb and not remembering when she started working with the government and when she was out on her own.

I actually thought of a scenario that might have a decent justification for Samus being given permission to use her weapons depending on the circumstance:

How many planets has Samus brought to ruin now? How many species potentially extinct by her hands? How much collateral damage has the Hunter caused?

I see Samus captured (by an army of forces, and no less), put on trial, and forced to work for the greater good for her -MANY- acts against all of Space Kind. With those amazing powers locked down until further notice.

Worse Fan Fics have been written. :smalltongue:


It wasn't her child. It was more like her pet. Yes, she may be sad about what happened but she takes it way WAY too far. Before the end of the first cut scene you go from feeling bad for her over what happened to wishing she'd just shut up about it (the delivery and writing are a big part of the problem, too). I really can't help but feel like if she were a guy that story would play out differently and she'd be a whole lot more stoic over the whole thing. But the director decided that she had to be ruled by her emotions because, hey, she has a uterus.

.... I was thinking more this scene. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFz3aF1kw5k)

Anarion
2012-07-03, 01:59 PM
Worse Fan Fics have been written. :smalltongue:


You're setting a very low bar there.


Also, I don't see why Samus would put up with being put on trial. It's a big universe with several extremely advanced species that all consider her a hero and tons of unexplored planets. She has a ship and the most badass suit of armor anywhere. It's been consistently shown that she's more capable than an entire federation platoon. What are they going to do, scramble the entire fleet to go after her? Really? If they wanted Samus to agree to federation restrictions, they needed to do a much better job of explaining why she wanted to be there enough to agree to play by the rules.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-03, 02:08 PM
You're setting a very low bar there.

True, but I also have confidence issues. That I recognise the bar to exist at all as something to get over is saying quite a bit. But that's not really relevant.


Also, I don't see why Samus would put up with being put on trial. It's a big universe with several extremely advanced species that all consider her a hero and tons of unexplored planets. She has a ship and the most badass suit of armor anywhere. It's been consistently shown that she's more capable than an entire federation platoon. What are they going to do, scramble the entire fleet to go after her? Really? If they wanted Samus to agree to federation restrictions, they needed to do a much better job of explaining why she wanted to be there enough to agree to play by the rules.

True. All True.

... maybe it would be a bit less... legal....

... Possibly like a warrior/colloseum/gladiator like thing....

...Against other various bounty hunters and mercenaries and creatures throughout the galaxy, also captured....

The biggest leap of faith there would involve Samus Aran some how caught off guard for the initial capture, and the deus ex machina to power down her suit to minimum levels....

Worse has been written. :smalltongue:

Eakin
2012-07-03, 02:33 PM
That's what I was thinking, but I'm being dumb and not remembering when she started working with the government and when she was out on her own.

I actually thought of a scenario that might have a decent justification for Samus being given permission to use her weapons depending on the circumstance:

How many planets has Samus brought to ruin now? How many species potentially extinct by her hands? How much collateral damage has the Hunter caused?

I see Samus captured (by an army of forces, and no less), put on trial, and forced to work for the greater good for her -MANY- acts against all of Space Kind. With those amazing powers locked down until further notice.

Worse Fan Fics have been written. :smalltongue:



.... I was thinking more this scene. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFz3aF1kw5k)

You can actually make a good argument for restricting the use of things live power bombs and super missiles. Who knows how tough those walls are, after all, and explosive decompression isn't fun for anybody. But it's harder to make that argument for, say, the grapple beam, or the suit of armor that keeps you from dying from running around magma. That's what people usually complain about.

And I know what scene you meant, but I think that it's closer to a dog being killed to protect its master than a child sacrificing itself for its mother. Sad, sure, but not the same magnitude.



The biggest leap of faith there would involve Samus Aran some how caught off guard for the initial capture, and the deus ex machina to power down her suit to minimum levels....

Worse has been written. :smalltongue:

Every other modern Metroid game has thrown something at Samus right at the beginning that left her without all of her equipment and forced her to go around collecting it again. It's practically a series convention at this point.

Anarion
2012-07-03, 03:46 PM
True, but I also have confidence issues. That I recognise the bar to exist at all as something to get over is saying quite a bit. But that's not really relevant.



True. All True.

... maybe it would be a bit less... legal....

... Possibly like a warrior/colloseum/gladiator like thing....

...Against other various bounty hunters and mercenaries and creatures throughout the galaxy, also captured....

The biggest leap of faith there would involve Samus Aran some how caught off guard for the initial capture, and the deus ex machina to power down her suit to minimum levels....

Worse has been written. :smalltongue:

You do realize that they actually did almost exactly this for the Metroid Prime: Hunters game, right? The multiplayer for that is literally Samus and a bunch of elite aliens in an arena together blasting each other for kicks and having to pick up various weapons and powerups because they start each match with almost nothing.

Nekura
2012-07-04, 12:28 AM
As far as Other M goes, I think this article (http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/gaming/metroid-other-m-the-elephant/article.html) is the one that most thoroughly explains the problems with Samus and Adam. Food for thought.


Wow that's horrible. I haven't played that game and now I am glad I didn't.

Lord Seth
2012-07-04, 12:33 AM
Wow that's horrible. I haven't played that game and now I am glad I didn't.I don't get this. The article only goes into problems with the story, and says nothing at all about the gameplay.

Now I haven't played Other M so maybe the gameplay isn't very good either, but "the story is pretty bad" seems a weird reason to say you're glad you didn't play the game when the bulk of a game is you playing it.

Maybe if it were something like an Ace Attorney game or even a JRPG I could understand saying you're glad you didn't play a game just because the story was bad, but it seems kind of a leap to go from "this article says the story is really bad" to "I'm glad I didn't play the game."

Eakin
2012-07-04, 01:08 AM
I don't get this. The article only goes into problems with the story, and says nothing at all about the gameplay.

Now I haven't played Other M so maybe the gameplay isn't very good either, but "the story is pretty bad" seems a weird reason to say you're glad you didn't play the game when the bulk of a game is you playing it.

Maybe if it were something like an Ace Attorney game or even a JRPG I could understand saying you're glad you didn't play a game just because the story was bad, but it seems kind of a leap to go from "this article says the story is really bad" to "I'm glad I didn't play the game."

I'm watching a Let's Play (http://lparchive.org/Metroid-Other-M/)
of the game right now, and the game play doesn't look all that compelling either. But the storytelling fails and bizarre writing fumbles really do out weigh them.

Cespenar
2012-07-04, 01:31 AM
Every other modern Metroid game has thrown something at Samus right at the beginning that left her without all of her equipment and forced her to go around collecting it again. It's practically a series convention at this point.

It's rather a staple of most Japanese games series than only Metroid.

Devonix
2012-07-04, 07:54 AM
I don't get this. The article only goes into problems with the story, and says nothing at all about the gameplay.

Now I haven't played Other M so maybe the gameplay isn't very good either, but "the story is pretty bad" seems a weird reason to say you're glad you didn't play the game when the bulk of a game is you playing it.

Maybe if it were something like an Ace Attorney game or even a JRPG I could understand saying you're glad you didn't play a game just because the story was bad, but it seems kind of a leap to go from "this article says the story is really bad" to "I'm glad I didn't play the game."

Well the gameplay is also lackluster. Sub par music, linear gameplay where every other metroid game let you go anywhere, recycled enemies rather than new ones, Game locations that make no sense. ect.

Devonix
2012-07-04, 07:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX4mhp-8sOc

Best in depth explination of why Other M is bad I've watched so far.
Be warned there is a bit of Prime fanboyism there, but he does actually bring up the bad points of the game.

Scowling Dragon
2012-07-04, 10:55 AM
A realy great RLM style review of metroid other M as a game here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX4mhp-8sOc&feature=plcp)

edit: Ninjad

An Enemy Spy
2012-07-04, 11:00 AM
Maybe you guys should make an Other M thread so that we can go back to the original topic of this one.

What about The Room? "Johnny's my best friend." "Lisa is so beautiful." I think those lines get said in almost every scene.

Eakin
2012-07-04, 11:24 AM
It's rather a staple of most Japanese games series than only Metroid.

There's a trope for that (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BagOfSpilling) naturally. Not just Japanese game series, western games use it too.


Maybe you guys should make an Other M thread so that we can go back to the original topic of this one.

What about The Room? "Johnny's my best friend." "Lisa is so beautiful." I think those lines get said in almost every scene.

Ironically this thread was created to keep Metroid Other M from derailing pony thread.

As for another character who gets less and less sympathetic as the game progresses, I'll add Kratos from God of War. I've only played the main 3 on the PS2/PS3, but I've never been sure if we're supposed to agree with his actions or not. He clearly a murderous psycho, but the token tragic back story makes me think someone wants us to feel like it's justified.

TheLaughingMan
2012-07-04, 11:26 AM
What about The Room? "Johnny's my best friend." "Lisa is so beautiful." I think those lines get said in almost every scene.

"I just like to watch you guys."

Yeah okay Denny, you just jumped up fifteen places on my Creep-list.


Now I haven't played Other M so maybe the gameplay isn't very good either, but "the story is pretty bad" seems a weird reason to say you're glad you didn't play the game when the bulk of a game is you playing it.

It is actually pretty bad by Metroid standards. It can't decide whether it wants to be Prime or Super and in the end kind of bungles both parts. Like, it's not a "this is one of the worst games I've ever played!" type of deal, but it mostly just wallows in mediocrity for a good portion of the game. The only real incentive to keep playing the game then is for the story, if you're the type that can put up with it.

Aotrs Commander
2012-07-04, 11:34 AM
I think some of the villains in Naruto seem to be going like this as the series goes on. The menance that could have been quite legitimately good gets deflated by often quite retardly stupid behavior and/or plot-twists (see Danzo, Itachi, Pain, the Nine Tails itself, I think, plus whatever the heck is going on (not been keeping up as of late) with Madara/Tobi/whatever the frag.)

They should have stuck with Orochimaru as the primary villain, at least his motives are a) at least comprehensible and b) he acted in a manner not completely mind-blowing stupid.



Argubably the Reapers in ME 3, due to the (original) Ending (I say arguably, depending on whether or not you choose to chuck the entire ending out wholesale). (Note in passing: not played the ending DLC yet.)

TheLaughingMan
2012-07-04, 11:39 AM
(Note in passing: not played the ending DLC yet.)

You're not missing much.

MCerberus
2012-07-04, 12:01 PM
You know, this is pretty well something that every horror series decides to go into. Instead of finding new ideas they just decide to elaborate or retcon their old stuff desperately trying to not have to come up with a new formula.

Scowling Dragon
2012-07-04, 12:08 PM
If only the Haloween series had not stumbled with the third one (Though it was full of interestingly bizarre ideas)....we could have had a series that was about creating interesting stuff.

MCerberus
2012-07-04, 12:21 PM
If only the Haloween series had not stumbled with the third one (Though it was full of interestingly bizarre ideas)....we could have had a series that was about creating interesting stuff.

I could never get into that series, it just never tried to present itself as anything other than a slasher. The theme of it, if there is one beyond 'kill teens', doesn't want to present itself like Night of the Living Dead, or even Final Destination.

TheSummoner
2012-07-04, 12:37 PM
As for another character who gets less and less sympathetic as the game progresses, I'll add Kratos from God of War. I've only played the main 3 on the PS2/PS3, but I've never been sure if we're supposed to agree with his actions or not. He clearly a murderous psycho, but the token tragic back story makes me think someone wants us to feel like it's justified.

Kratos was ever sympathetic? He's essentially a super-powered crybaby who throws a tantrum and breaks his toys ("his toys" in this case can be read as "any living thing he sees") whenever he doesn't get his way. Throw in a few minutes of angst about his wife and kid and then off to the next sex minigame with whatever naked women happen to be in front of him.

MCerberus
2012-07-04, 12:50 PM
Kratos was ever sympathetic? He's essentially a super-powered crybaby who throws a tantrum and breaks his toys ("his toys" in this case can be read as "any living thing he sees") whenever he doesn't get his way. Throw in a few minutes of angst about his wife and kid and then off to the next sex minigame with whatever naked women happen to be in front of him.

And in the end he's crushed by all of his flaws and sees himself how others see him, it drives him to suicide.

Until the sequel that is!

Man on Fire
2012-07-04, 01:59 PM
Kratos was first and most of all an anti-hero, developers said themselves that they wanted main character to be murderous psychopath, which is why they created someone new, instead of taking one of existing heroes from Greek Mythology.

Which proves how little they knew about that Mythology, because most of those heroes were exactly that and even worse. Achilles once mordered and raped (in that order) the Queen of Amazons, Heracles slaughtered entire temple when preists refused his request, things liek that happened all the time.

I always thought that Asura's Wrath was stealth critique of God of War series. Main characters are quite similiar - they both lost their family, are really f$%&#@g angry all the time, fight gods and do impossible stuff. But Asura doesn't enjoy it and cares about mortals - over the course of the game he doesn't hurt a single one (he kills either other dieties, demonic monstroities or former's soldiers, who are either robots or lesser demigods) while the gods he fights against express the same attitude about mortal lives as Kratos. just saying.


I don't get this. The article only goes into problems with the story, and says nothing at all about the gameplay.

Now I haven't played Other M so maybe the gameplay isn't very good either, but "the story is pretty bad" seems a weird reason to say you're glad you didn't play the game when the bulk of a game is you playing it.

Maybe if it were something like an Ace Attorney game or even a JRPG I could understand saying you're glad you didn't play a game just because the story was bad, but it seems kind of a leap to go from "this article says the story is really bad" to "I'm glad I didn't play the game."

That article put it very well - Other M's story is so integral to the game it's impossible to be there just for gameplay. Cutscenes are unskippable, menu has entire section devoted for keeping track of the plot, storyline in this game is important. And it's bad.

Also, storyline is important part of the game. When I want game with nonexistent story, I play fighting games, and even that changed recently (Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe, Mortal Kombat 9), or old games. In new games story is part of the whole game and for me is one of the most important ones. I feel no reason to play a game with bad story.

Prime32
2012-07-04, 02:51 PM
Also, storyline is important part of the game. When I want game with nonexistent story, I play fighting games, and even that changed recently (Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe, Mortal Kombat 9)What, never heard of BlazBlue? :smalltongue:

Man on Fire
2012-07-04, 03:32 PM
I heard only it's spiritual successor to Guilty Gear. And while Guilty Gear was more story based than other games, it still wasn't what story modes in MK vs DCU and MK9 had - one coherent story instead of one or more mutualy exclusive story routes for each character. they are enjoyable too, but you feel that most of them doesn't really matter, the only important ones will be those announced canonical in next game, which means they will be probably those set around central characters.

Lord Seth
2012-07-04, 04:08 PM
They should have stuck with Orochimaru as the primary villain, at least his motives are a) at least comprehensible and b) he acted in a manner not completely mind-blowing stupid.I don't know. I thought Orochimaru was really outstaying his welcome. He wasn't at Naraku levels yet, but he was getting there.

Serpentine
2012-07-04, 04:25 PM
The titular character of The Ill-Made Mute was definitely this for me.
At the start of the book, they were voiceless, sexless, pastless, horribly disfigured, and one of the more interesting characters I've ever read about.
At the end of the book, aftera magical healing kiss,they werefemale, incredibly beautiful, had her (beautiful) voice back, discovered she was actually a princess (or something like that, I forget)and deeply, profoundly dull.

Man on Fire
2012-07-04, 04:58 PM
I can name one example of character who was reersion of this for me. Raven from Black Company. He started as boring, generic silent loner-type badass who was just out o place in this story. But as it progressed, through next three books, we found out more about him and seen how much flawed he really is.

Devonix
2012-07-04, 06:00 PM
What, never heard of BlazBlue? :smalltongue:

Or King of Fighters up to 98 I lost track of the plot after the Orochi saga

Nekura
2012-07-05, 03:53 PM
I don't get this. The article only goes into problems with the story, and says nothing at all about the gameplay.

Now I haven't played Other M so maybe the gameplay isn't very good either, but "the story is pretty bad" seems a weird reason to say you're glad you didn't play the game when the bulk of a game is you playing it.

Maybe if it were something like an Ace Attorney game or even a JRPG I could understand saying you're glad you didn't play a game just because the story was bad, but it seems kind of a leap to go from "this article says the story is really bad" to "I'm glad I didn't play the game."


To some people the story of games is very important. The article pointed out it seemed very important to the game’s maker from the interviews and not being able to skip the movie parts. Then again it is not just a bad story it’s a story about an abusive relationship that idolizes that relationship. So the gameplay might be great but reading other peoples views on it, it wasn’t that good either. Even if it had the best gameplay of all the metroid games if I decide I don’t want to play it because the creator doesn’t see anything wrong with abusive relationships and actually tries to put a positive spin on them well then I don’t think of that as a “weird reason to say you're glad you didn't play the game”

Lord Seth
2012-07-06, 09:09 AM
To some people the story of games is very important. The article pointed out it seemed very important to the game’s maker from the interviews and not being able to skip the movie parts. Then again it is not just a bad story it’s a story about an abusive relationship that idolizes that relationship. So the gameplay might be great but reading other peoples views on it, it wasn’t that good either. Even if it had the best gameplay of all the metroid games if I decide I don’t want to play it because the creator doesn’t see anything wrong with abusive relationships and actually tries to put a positive spin on them well then I don’t think of that as a “weird reason to say you're glad you didn't play the game”There's a difference between saying a bad story makes you not interested in a game and actually going so far as to say you're glad you never played it.

TheSummoner
2012-07-06, 10:42 AM
Story isn't something you can get away with half-assing. You either have to tell a good story or not bother with one at all.

No one ever complained about a good story, and people won't put much thought into it at all if your story is "Bowser has kidnapped the princess, go rescue her" or "Dr. Wily has built 8 more robot masters and is trying to take over the world. Fight, Megaman for everlasting peace!" but force a person to sit through a crap story. One that the game keeps going back to despite the player not being able to care about it due to how horrible it is, and that's when people start to complain.

KnightOfV
2012-07-07, 02:54 PM
This title made me think immediately of Artimus Entreri. Back when Forgotten Realms was still cool, Entreri was the only person who could go toe-to-toe with the unbeatable, too-perfect drow and walk away. Yes, he lost every time, but he always survived and came back to try again, and it was close for a while. He causes lasting, significant harm to Drizzt and his companions, and was (in my opinion) a great foil for the world's most well known Dark Elf. Heck, I'd cheer for anyone who wanted to beat up on that Mary-Stu, emo Ranger, but this guy was cool!

It all changed in Road to the Patriarch when... Artimus gets backstory! Why is he so emotionless? Why is he such a peerless fighter? How did he get all that barely suppressed rage at the world that fueled his personal vendetta against Drizzt???

He grew up as an orphan on the streets and was sexually abused by a pedophile priest. No lead up to that at all, just random back story that really felt forced and out of place in the series and genre. I'm not sure I can even explain why, that ruined it for me... just seemed like too much info. Before I thought Artimus just had a 'natural' and 'pragmatic' evil outlook rather than the 'childhood trauma victimized him forever' angle. He didn't really NEED a reason to be evil like that. Dropping that bomb into his history that far into the series just felt... wrong.

That is actually the point where I stopped reading Forgotten Realms.

And agreed completely with Vader and Metroid. They will find a way to ruin every great franchise if they keep it going long enough.

MCerberus
2012-07-07, 02:58 PM
This title made me think immediately of Artimus Entreri. Back when Forgotten Realms was still cool, Entreri was the only person who could go toe-to-toe with the unbeatable, too-perfect drow and walk away. Yes, he lost every time, but he always survived and came back to try again, and it was close for a while. He causes lasting, significant harm to Drizzt and his companions, and was (in my opinion) a great foil for the world's most well known Dark Elf. Heck, I'd cheer for anyone who wanted to beat up on that Mary-Stu, emo Ranger, but this guy was cool!

Speaking of which!
Rebel against a corrupt system didn't need much backstory, nor did he need to be OMG THE BEST EVAAAAR.

But they just.
kept.
shoving.
the jerk.
down our throats.

KnightOfV
2012-07-07, 03:35 PM
Speaking of which!
Rebel against a corrupt system didn't need much backstory, nor did he need to be OMG THE BEST EVAAAAR.

But they just.
kept.
shoving.
the jerk.
down our throats.

Exactly. :smallsigh: To make it worse, I'm told he survived the transition to 4th edition thanks to some stupid immortal vampire curse thing his dagger gave him. So he can keep fighting Drizzt... who will also never, ever die because he is perfect and doesn't age. They should just make both of them gods and be done with it.

Prime32
2012-07-07, 05:05 PM
IIRC Salvatore wanted to kill off Drizzt long ago but wasn't allowed?

Mando Knight
2012-07-07, 05:08 PM
Given how FR's pantheon has been completely uprooted before (even before the much-maligned 4e-introducing apocalypse), I wouldn't be surprised if that happens sooner or later, same with any other remaining iconic FR characters that just. won't. die.

Raimun
2012-07-08, 12:34 AM
As for another character who gets less and less sympathetic as the game progresses, I'll add Kratos from God of War. I've only played the main 3 on the PS2/PS3, but I've never been sure if we're supposed to agree with his actions or not. He clearly a murderous psycho, but the token tragic back story makes me think someone wants us to feel like it's justified.

I have no sympathy for Kratos and I played the three main games too. God of War-series is ultimately a story of a psycho fighting an authoritative dictator (and before that, his son). Also, revenge, which is bad, m'kay?

Sure, Kratos loved his family but he did sell his soul instead of admitting defeat and that led him to eventually kill his own family.

I think Kratos' first encounter with the ship's captain in first God of War told us a great deal about his character. That man never wanted redemption but revenge. Sure, he realized what he had done after killing Zeus but it was too little, too late. Apparently, giving the power of hope to humans was kind of a good act but do remember the road leading there.
It was kind of a tragedy in vein of Macbeth but with revenge as the driving force.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-08, 12:54 AM
Exactly. :smallsigh: To make it worse, I'm told he survived the transition to 4th edition thanks to some stupid immortal vampire curse thing his dagger gave him. So he can keep fighting Drizzt... who will also never, ever die because he is perfect and doesn't age. They should just make both of them gods and be done with it.

Specifically what happened was in a short story from one of the "Realms of whatever" short story anthologies, he used the vampiric dagger on a Shade of Netheril, which don't age (turns out the dagger is a Netherese artifact) and it made Entreri age slower. I totally agree with what all of you are saying here, but I just happened to have the facts on that one :P

Also, I think...in the end of the Trilogy about the war with Obould Many-Arrows, Salvatore wanted him to die in the last fight with Obould himself, but WotC were just like "Nope, not gonna happen." so there was some dumb thing with a crossbow he pulled out of his @$& or something. Now, if I remember correctly, he recently stopped one of Szass Tam's plots from The Haunted Lands Trilogy (which in my opinion, was one of the last good trilogies set in the Realms, along with the Twilight War Trilogy).

And last, it deserves mentioning. I haven't read that many of Ed Greenwood's books, but I've heard a lot of people say that basically, the way they work is he introduces interesting, compelling, low to mid level characters. And then the characters end up in over their heads and the Chosen of Mystra, led by Elminster, show up and save the day. And from the one short story (which seemed entirely pointless to me, being about a group of mercenaries that holed up too long in one place and someone betrayed them or something, and then the Symbol or whoever shows up and wipes out the overwhelming enemy force by herself.) and the one novel, this happened in both cases. And you, with the transition to 4E, Mystra died again, but for super serious reals this time, guys. But another Elminster book just came out. Just saying.

thegurullamen
2012-07-08, 01:28 AM
Heroes. (Spoilers follow.)

Not the best show, but it had a fun first season with a villain with healing powers--a well intentioned extremist Chessmaster in cahoots with a Chessmaster matriarch of a powerful political and superpowered family. Great stuff. Then Tim Kring showed how little writing ability he had with two seasons of solid retcons, aborted plot arcs and the complete ruination of both villains to build up the credibility a third villain...who did absolutely nothing and died anti-climatically.

Same thing happened in season two with the immortal Adam Monroe, an Englishman from feudal Japan betrayed by the idealistic and naive time-traveller Hiro. Adam turns cynical and attempts to kill the world because Humans Are Bastards. Potential there. The problem with him was the pacing of the background exposition--it took half a season to get to the payoff people saw coming from episode two and treated it as a big mystery the whole time. By the time the shoe dropped, the entire cast had a case of Idiot Ball so hard it was impossible to sympathize with them, and the whole show fell apart.

Lost had a lot of these, due to delving into the backstories of the character-du-jour each episode and occasionally having nothing to offer the audience except for answers to questions no one cared about. "Stranger in a Strange Land" is arguably the worst, explaining the origin of tattoos on the main character apropos of nothing.

Can't think of any more off the top of my head, but a large number of Chosen One stories count, as do the "he/she was raped/molested as a child, so that's why they're evil" really, really tick me off.

Scowling Dragon
2012-07-08, 12:26 PM
Also pretty much everything in the Star Wars EU.

Im pretty sure the crap Jar-Jar stepped on in the first Prequel has its own backstory.

Dr.Epic
2012-07-08, 04:40 PM
I think a lot of the Star Wars prequel falls into this.

thegurullamen
2012-07-08, 07:38 PM
Also pretty much everything in the Star Wars EU.

Im pretty sure the crap Jar-Jar stepped on in the first Prequel has its own backstory.

YES. Thank you. I feel like I just had an itch scratched that I didn't even know existed. IG88 stole the Death Star II, Chewbacca was Yoda's bro on Kashyyk, every other novel has a chapter set on Hoth whose only relevant characteristic is that it's a completely unimportant location, Threepio was built by Vader, all the stormtroopers are Boba Fett's dad, that one chick who looked out over the podrace scene for half a second in episode one is a Force vampire trained by secret female Force vampires but aren't Sith who hunts down Jedi and steals their lightsabres as trophies, so much bad writing. But yeah, any EU that has an author who's widely praised for being "that guy who fixes everything" is likely to fall straight into this camp.

Mando Knight
2012-07-08, 08:16 PM
The troopers are more like Fett's brothers, though, seeing as all of them are clones of the same guy.

MCerberus
2012-07-08, 09:37 PM
The troopers are more like Fett's brothers, though, seeing as all of them are clones of the same guy.

Boba's a weird one too. Sure he was just a bounty hunter, but damn if he didn't sell. I think he died while holding the title of Mandalore.

IthilanorStPete
2012-07-12, 04:14 PM
Also pretty much everything in the Star Wars EU.

Im pretty sure the crap Jar-Jar stepped on in the first Prequel has its own backstory.

One of the reasons the Thrawn Trilogy is great - there's not too much of this. It introduces a lot of characters, but they aren't jammed into the existing universe via retcon.

Eakin
2012-07-12, 06:31 PM
YES. Thank you. I feel like I just had an itch scratched that I didn't even know existed. IG88 stole the Death Star II, Chewbacca was Yoda's bro on Kashyyk, every other novel has a chapter set on Hoth whose only relevant characteristic is that it's a completely unimportant location, Threepio was built by Vader, all the stormtroopers are Boba Fett's dad, that one chick who looked out over the podrace scene for half a second in episode one is a Force vampire trained by secret female Force vampires but aren't Sith who hunts down Jedi and steals their lightsabres as trophies, so much bad writing. But yeah, any EU that has an author who's widely praised for being "that guy who fixes everything" is likely to fall straight into this camp.

To be fair, it isn't like this was all developed as part of a coherent plan by one guy or a small team. Anyone who wants to write their own fan fiction (which, really, is all the EU actually is) can do whatever they want with the IP if I'm not mistaken.

But it is hilarious that Tattooine, a planet who's defining feature in the original trilogy is how unimportant and irrelevant it is, suddenly became somewhere that every character just happens to stop by at some point or another for hilariously contrived reasons.

The biggest problem with Star Wars is that the universe doesn't feel that big, which is a problem when your setting is a galaxy-spanning empire riven by civil war. There are, like, 8 important people that drive EVERYTHING that happens and they all know each other for no good reason.

I also think comic book characters are rife with the problem being discussed in this thread, since they have to keep changing and growing but the powers that be would never let them permanently resolve the central conflicts they're built around. It's no wonder they keep rebooting them so they can keep selling the same stories every few years.

IthilanorStPete
2012-07-12, 07:09 PM
To be fair, it isn't like this was all developed as part of a coherent plan by one guy or a small team. Anyone who wants to write their own fan fiction (which, really, is all the EU actually is) can do whatever they want with the IP if I'm not mistaken.

There are guidelines, but only covering the major things, as far as I know.


But it is hilarious that Tattooine, a planet who's defining feature in the original trilogy is how unimportant and irrelevant it is, suddenly became somewhere that every character just happens to stop by at some point or another for hilariously contrived reasons.

Not just Tattooine, the specific Mos Eisley cantina, even. I'm pretty sure that by this point in the EU everyone in there was an agent of someone or other.


The biggest problem with Star Wars is that the universe doesn't feel that big, which is a problem when your setting is a galaxy-spanning empire riven by civil war. There are, like, 8 important people that drive EVERYTHING that happens and they all know each other for no good reason.

^ this. Again, something the Thrawn Trilogy handles well; no Tattooine, no Hoth, most of it takes place on entirely new worlds. (Counting Coruscant as new because it was written before the prequels)

Mando Knight
2012-07-12, 07:37 PM
Boba's a weird one too. Sure he was just a bounty hunter, but damn if he didn't sell. I think he died while holding the title of Mandalore.
They still haven't killed him off yet. He's 90-something and still had plot relevant activity in one of the more recent novels.

Not just Tattooine, the specific Mos Eisley cantina, even. I'm pretty sure that by this point in the EU everyone in there was an agent of someone or other.
Everyone in there while Kenobi was hiring Solo was an agent of someone, to be a little more specific (probably an exaggeration, but similarly, the Death Star plans have been stolen by everyone in the Alliance at least once).

(Counting Coruscant as new because it was written before the prequels)
Zahn coined the name of Coruscant. The city-planet already existed in the reference material, but it was Zahn who gave it a real name instead of just "Imperial Center."

IthilanorStPete
2012-07-12, 07:40 PM
Zahn coined the name of Coruscant. The city-planet already existed in the reference material, but it was Zahn who gave it a real name instead of just "Imperial Center."

Oh, didn't know that! I figured there was at least one book covering the immediate post-RotJ time period that would have mentioned it as Coruscant.

Eakin
2012-07-12, 07:48 PM
Speaking of extended universes driving characterization into the ground, Final Fantasy 7 and all its spinoffs/prequels/sequels make the already-incoherent original story that much worse.

I always find it odd that everyone remembers that game so fondly. And now Squeenix is re-releasing it again.

Philistine
2012-07-13, 10:31 AM
Boba's a weird one too. Sure he was just a bounty hunter, but damn if he didn't sell. I think he died while holding the title of Mandalore.

What is this madness? Boba Fett died early in RotJ, when a jetpack mishap dropped him into the Sarlacc. Any suggestion to the contrary is just crazy talk. Crazy talk, I say!

ETA: As to the OP, Boba Fett is a prime example. In the OT he's no more than a secondary, subordinate villain. Cool armor, yes, and he does have one good line of dialog; but he's such a renowned psychopath that Darth Crazy-Killin' Fool Vader has to warn him against excessive violence, and of course he ultimately dies like a punk. That should have been the end of it. If only that had been the end of it! But noooooooo. And it only got worse from there.

Man on Fire
2012-07-14, 03:45 AM
I for one like post Saarlac Boba Fett stories, have read some good comics with him from early years after RotJ and even one quite good novel. He's okay in my book, through I get that he gets overued in EU at large, especially when Keren Traviss is writing post-RotJ novels.

MLai
2012-07-14, 07:10 AM
Did Boba Fett ever actually disintegrate someone?
Just curious.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-16, 06:46 PM
Are series that they tell you too much capable of being talked about?

'cause not only do most people seem to agree that the Sonic Series hasn't needed a more complicated storyline, but I can think of another series a bit like it.

I am completely aware that each of the NES games, let alone the newest modern versions, of Ninja Gaiden, have all had various random interesting stories. The thing is, I doubt most people will be able to remember anything more than this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q7xFKtRj5g)without looking it up.

To quote a certain critic, "Evil Ninjas Over There, KILL THEY ASS". That's really all that Team Ninja needs to -tell- us about Ninja Gaiden. They just need to let us.. well, be Ninjas. And kill stuff.

I haven't personally played the latest one to the end, since it was made -far- too easy. And I went back to play the 2nd one to make sure I wasn't just too good, and I found my limbs torn from each other the second I touched the highest difficulty. So I'll admit, I was even less inclined to pay any attention to parts that I wasn't dirrectly playing in.

MCerberus
2012-07-16, 06:57 PM
What is this madness? Boba Fett died early in RotJ, when a jetpack mishap dropped him into the Sarlacc. Any suggestion to the contrary is just crazy talk. Crazy talk, I say!

ETA: As to the OP, Boba Fett is a prime example. In the OT he's no more than a secondary, subordinate villain. Cool armor, yes, and he does have one good line of dialog; but he's such a renowned psychopath that Darth Crazy-Killin' Fool Vader has to warn him against excessive violence, and of course he ultimately dies like a punk. That should have been the end of it. If only that had been the end of it! But noooooooo. And it only got worse from there.

It still made for less of a facepalm than prequel Fett!