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Gamebird
2005-08-23, 04:19 PM
Could you elaborate?

WampaX
2005-08-23, 04:25 PM
i think the Tarrasque got to him before he could finish.
;D

bingo_bob
2005-08-23, 04:34 PM
I think he's referring to the 'Assimilate' power... though I could easily be wrong...

Nasrudith
2005-08-23, 04:57 PM
Oops I accidentayl posted it before ti was finsihed being typed up but then I realized it didn't work out to well alone. Though ego whip is a great way to bring down a tarrasque if you can get it through its power or spell resistance. I realized the tarrasque would eat the psion before it would get a chance to destory it with a psion build. Maybe with a party it would help...

Gamebird
2005-08-23, 05:00 PM
Hey, this brings up a good question -

If someone wants to kill their (own) post, how do you go about doing it?

Everyman
2005-08-23, 07:05 PM
Slay Post
Necromancy [Delete]
Level: Clr 5, Delete 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One completed post
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: None

You can delete any post. You must succeed on a melee type attack to select the subject, and it can avoid deletion with a successful Fortitude save. If it succeeds, it instead takes 3d20 minutes to appear plus 1 minute per caster level.

On a more on-topic note, I've been wondering what happens if you glue a bag of holding to a tarrasque (open), and get a portable hole in it. *Would it suck the whole Tarrasque in, only the 10ft radius of flesh within the opening point, or do absolutely nothing? *If it does suck in X amount of flesh, and the opening point was the skull, does that leave you with a dead Tarrasque?

Wih
2005-08-23, 07:39 PM
Slay Post
Necromancy [Delete]
Level: Clr 5, Delete 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One completed post
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: None

You can delete any post. You must succeed on a melee type attack to select the subject, and it can avoid deletion with a successful Fortitude save. If it succeeds, it instead takes 3d20 minutes to appear plus 1 minute per caster level.

On a more on-topic note, I've been wondering what happens if you glue a bag of holding to a tarrasque (open), and get a portable hole in it. *Would it suck the whole Tarrasque in, only the 10ft radius of flesh within the opening point, or do absolutely nothing? *If it does suck in X amount of flesh, and the opening point was the skull, does that leave you with a dead Tarrasque?

It'd suck the entire tarrasque in - he's in the 10ft square, so he gets sucked in.

The easiest way to kill the tarrasque is to surround it in Walls of Force, and then fill it with water. Not like it can bust out of the walls, and it'll eventually drown. Then you just need to wish it dead.

Spuddly
2005-08-23, 09:05 PM
Couldn't a Tarrasque easily bust a wall of force, or at least burrow out of it?

And does a Tarrasque really need to breathe?

Wih
2005-08-23, 09:50 PM
Couldn't a Tarrasque easily bust a wall of force, or at least burrow out of it?

And does a Tarrasque really need to breathe?

1) No (see below)
2) Not if you put a wall of force below it too
3) No (see below)


Tarrasque
Size/Type: Colossal Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 48d10+594 (858 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 35 (-8 size, +3 Dex, +30 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 32
Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+81
Attack: Bite +57 melee (4d8+17/18-20/×3)
Full Attack: Bite +57 melee (4d8+17/18-20/×3) and 2 horns +52 melee (1d10+8) and 2 claws +52 melee (1d12+8) and tail slap +52 melee (3d8+8)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32
Saves: Fort +38, Ref +29, Will +20
Abilities: Str 45, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: Listen +17, Search +9, Spot +17, Survival +14 (+16 following tracks)
Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness (6)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 49+ HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

The tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, and it weighs about 130 tons.

The tarrasque cannot speak.

Combat
The tarrasque attacks with its claws, teeth, horns, and tail.

The tarrasque’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Augmented Critical (Ex)
The tarrasque’s bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.

Frightful Presence (Su)
The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, the tarrasque must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Rush (Ex)
Once per minute, the normally slow-moving tarrasque can move at a speed of 150 feet.

Swallow Whole (Ex)
The tarrasque can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the tarrasque’s digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 50 points of damage to the tarrasque’s digestive tract (AC 25). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The tarrasque’s gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures.

Carapace (Ex)
The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.

Regeneration (Ex)
No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Skills
The tarrasque has a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.

The Tarrasque has no exceptions to it's type in it's notes.


Traits
A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Proficient with its natural weapons only.
Proficient with no armor.
Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.

Magical Beasts need to breathe, eat and sleep.
Thus, the Tarrasque breathes, and can drown.


Wall of Force
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration: 1 round /level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

A wall of force spell creates an invisible wall of force. The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage’s disjunction spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.

The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10- foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.

Wall of force can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

Material Component
A pinch of powder made from a clear gem.
Unless the Tarrasque can cast Disjunction, then he can't break the walls of force.

Thus; surround the tarrasque in walls of force, and then drown him in them.
No saves. Just time.

jdrich
2005-08-23, 09:57 PM
How do you fill the 'cube' of force up with water, pray tell?

Xvos
2005-08-23, 10:05 PM
How do you fill the 'cube' of force up with water, pray tell?

You create a 'Tank' of force instead of a cube, Tarrasques aren't known for jumping. Then you just keep using Create Water until its full and put the lid on, simple.

jdrich
2005-08-23, 10:14 PM
The tarrasque will float, unless I'm missing something in his description.

Therefore you will be unable to 'cap' the tank.

Wih
2005-08-23, 10:15 PM
You create a 'Tank' of force instead of a cube, Tarrasques aren't known for jumping. Then you just keep using Create Water until its full and put the lid on, simple.
Just get a bottle of everfilled water, leave a small enough gap in the walls for the stream that comes out of it to get into the box.
Or if you're really lazy, just wait for the Tarrasque to die from hunger.



EDIT:
Right, it appears I didn't explain myself properly. Build the box like this -

---------
| * |
| * |
| * |
| * |
| * |
---------

bingo_bob
2005-08-23, 10:18 PM
I don't think the Tarrasque will die of hunger in a matter of seconds. Running out of air would be shorter, though not that short.

Wih
2005-08-23, 10:20 PM
I don't think the Tarrasque will die of hunger in a matter of seconds. Running out of air would be shorter, though not that short.

Never said it would. That's why I said wait for it to die of hunger if you were lazy =P

bingo_bob
2005-08-23, 10:33 PM
No, the spell would end way too soon for that to even have a chance of working, even if you ARE lazy.

Xvos
2005-08-23, 10:36 PM
Wall of force can be made permanent, as a sub 20th level caster (19th) you can make permanent walls of force.

Priceless_Ming
2005-08-23, 10:37 PM
Wouldn't force cage be more efficient?

Wih
2005-08-23, 11:05 PM
Wouldn't force cage be more efficient?


It's too small to fit the Tarrasque, thus it fails.

Spuddly
2005-08-23, 11:35 PM
Yay! Time for some maths!

A Tarrasque is 70 by 50 feet. That means your tank must be at least 70 feet, probably 80 feet to really stop him, on all sides. If a Tarrasque rears up, he could climb out of a 50' high cage, no problem.

So at the very least, you need a cube of 80' sides. This would be, if I'm doing my maths right, 6 80'x80' walls of force, or 38,400 square feet of wall of force.

Does anyone see any problems here, or is it just me?

Wih
2005-08-23, 11:50 PM
Yay! Time for some maths!

A Tarrasque is 70 by 50 feet. That means your tank must be at least 70 feet, probably 80 feet to really stop him, on all sides. If a Tarrasque rears up, he could climb out of a 50' high cage, no problem.

So at the very least, you need a cube of 80' sides. This would be, if I'm doing my maths right, 6 80'x80' walls of force, or 38,400 square feet of wall of force.

Does anyone see any problems here, or is it just me?

Wall of force creates a wall up to 10ft/10ft per caster level. No problem there.
And there's always this nifty item:



Decanter of Endless Water
If the stopper is removed from this ordinary-looking flask and a command word spoken, an amount of fresh or salt water pours out. Separate command words determine the type as well as the volume and velocity.

"Stream" pours out 1 gallon per round.
"Fountain" produces a 5-foot-long stream at 5 gallons per round.
"Geyser" produces a 20-foot-long, 1-foot-wide stream at 30 gallons per round.
The geyser effect causes considerable back pressure, requiring the holder to make a DC 12 Strength check to avoid being knocked down. The force of the geyser deals 1d4 points of damage but can only affect one target per round. The command word must be spoken to stop it.

Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, control water; Price 9,000 gp;Weight 2 lb.


Specialty Definition: Cubic foot
(From Wikipedia, the free Encyclopedia)

The cubic foot (symbols ft³, cu. ft.) is a nonmetric unit of volume, used in the United States. It is defined as the volume of a cube with edges one foot in length.
1 cubic foot is equal to:

1,728 cubic inches
0.037037 (1/27) cubic yard
7.48052 gallons
28.3168 litres
0.0283168 cubic metres

38400/7.48052=5133.3329
5133.3329=172
So it'd take 172 rounds to fill up the box with water using the decanter, which is rounghly 17 minutes.
This is not counting the Tarrasque's mass - the tarrasque would be taking up a good 1/2 of the box, so that makes it less than 10 minutes.

I don't see any problem. Let's do the math to see how long the tarrasque would take to drown.


Drowning
Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1.

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.

It is possible to drown in substances other than water, such as sand, quicksand, fine dust, and silos full of grain.

The Tarrasque can hold it'd breath for 70 rounds. That's 7 minutes.
Right. The Tarrasque has 35 CON, so that's a +12 to the drowning check. Taking averages, it'd take 13 rounds for it to fail it's check. That's 1 minute and 18 seconds. It'd definately fail on a 43, which would happen 44 rounds after it stopped holding it's breath - 4 minutes and 24 seconds.

17 (most possible time) to fill up the box
7 minutes to stop holding it's breath.
5 minutes to drown (at the most).
29 minutes to kill the Tarrasque, minus casting the walls of force. I'd say that's feasable.

Spuddly
2005-08-24, 12:46 AM
The spell description says a 10 foot square per level. At level 20 you could make 20 of these 10 foot sqaures, or 2000 sqaure feet, in one round. With quick spell, you could cast two of these in one round.
That's a far cry from the required 38,400 sqaure feet to seal the Tarrasque up.


38400/7.48052=5133.3329
5133.3329=172
So it'd take 172 rounds to fill up the box with water using the decanter, which is rounghly 17 minutes.
This is not counting the Tarrasque's mass - the tarrasque would be taking up a good 1/2 of the box, so that makes it less than 10 minutes.

No, 38,400 is square feet, not cubic feet. 38k feet is the amount of surface area your box has. That's how much box there is to get wet. To fill it, you would need to fill 80'x80'x80'x (1/2), or 256,000 cubic feet.

1 cubic foot = about 7 gallons. 256,000 cubic feet would be 1,792,000 gallons (multiply each side by 256,000). At 30 gallons per round, that would take almost 60,000 rounds, or 6,000 minutes (if a round is 10 seconds). It would take 4 days to fill the tank.

Permanency would also have to be cast on each 2000 square foot wall that the caster put up, not on the entire thing, as each wall of force was created by seperate spells.

If you could throw the permanency stats out, and how many spells a level 20 wizard would get, I can work out the rest of the math for you.

Phasm
2005-08-24, 01:02 AM
Drowning the tarrasque! Ingenious! :D

If your DM has a habit of planting cursed items with your hard-earned treasure, you might have run into this:

Scarab of Death:
This small pin appears to be any one of the various beneficial amulets, brooches, or scarabs. However, if it is held for more than 1 round or carried by a living creature for 1 minute, it changes into a horrible burrowing beetlelike creature. The thing tears through any leather or cloth, burrows into flesh, and reaches the victim’s heart in 1 round, causing death. A DC 25 Reflex save allows the wearer to tear the scarab away before it burrows out of sight, but he still takes 3d6 points of damage. The beetle then returns to its scarab form. Placing the scarab in a container of wood, ceramic, bone, ivory, or metal prevents the monster from coming to life and allows for long-term storage of the item.

Strong abjuration; CL 19th; Create Wondrous Item, slay living; Price 80,000 gp.
Have your best thrower open the box and chuck it at the tarrasque, preferably somewhere hard for the critter to reach, and watch the fun.

Hey, this raises a question. If a tarrasque has a scarab of death nestled in its ribcage, wouldn't it stay dead without need for a wish or miracle? Sure, the heart would regenerate, but once it started beating the scarab would reanimate and start munching, effectively keeping the beast dead. Opinions, DMs?

Spuddly
2005-08-24, 01:10 AM
A scarab may cause death for a medium sized human with a medium sized heart.

But a Tarrasque is Collossal. I imagine the scarab would be not but a heartworm in the beast. With the ridiculous regeneration, the scarab wouldn't do any permanent damage, except where it nestled.

Also, the scarab may not even penetrate 30 natural armor. Cloth and leather and flesh hardly counts for the armor plates of a magic beastie.

Wih
2005-08-24, 01:33 AM
The spell description says a 10 foot square per level. At level 20 you could make 20 of these 10 foot sqaures, or 2000 sqaure feet, in one round. With quick spell, you could cast two of these in one round.
That's a far cry from the required 38,400 sqaure feet to seal the Tarrasque up.


No, 38,400 is square feet, not cubic feet. 38k feet is the amount of surface area your box has. That's how much box there is to get wet. To fill it, you would need to fill 80'x80'x80'x (1/2), or 256,000 cubic feet.

1 cubic foot = about 7 gallons. 256,000 cubic feet would be 1,792,000 gallons (multiply each side by 256,000). At 30 gallons per round, that would take almost 60,000 rounds, or 6,000 minutes (if a round is 10 seconds). It would take 4 days to fill the tank.

Permanency would also have to be cast on each 2000 square foot wall that the caster put up, not on the entire thing, as each wall of force was created by seperate spells.

If you could throw the permanency stats out, and how many spells a level 20 wizard would get, I can work out the rest of the math for you.

Right then. Let's do maths from scratch again.
The Tarrasque is 70/30long, 50 tall (see description), so let's calculate that for 70/50ft. That's 10ft^2 per CL, so the combined CL needed to prison the Tarrasque would be:
That's 2(3*5)+2(7*5)+2(7*3) = 30+70+42 = 142

...Right, I can see the flaw with my answer here. But there is an easy way around it.
Two spells per round (One quicken, one widened) from a 20th level caster = 60. This is 3 rounds work from one person. Two rounds from two (minus the 'lid'). One round from three.

With preparation, that's easy. The next part - filling the box. A box that is 30*70*50 is 105,000 cubed feet. Remember, of course, that this time is not including that the space that the Tarrasque takes up.

Lets also say that each mage has the Leadership feat, with a healthy (har har) amount of clerics.
Considering the mages will be level 20, that's well over the Legendary level of 11, so Great renown (+2) is easy. They're magic users, so that's Special power (+1) aswell. Even at a -1 for 8 CHA, that's still leadership level of 22, which means they each get:
1 15th level
75 1st level
7 2nd level
4 3rd level
2 4th level
2 5th level
1 6th level
Clerics. That's 140 CL per mage, which comes to 420 CL


Create Water
Conjuration (Creation) [Water]
Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Pal 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Up to 2 gallons of water/level
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large—possibly creating a downpour or filling many small receptacles.

Note: Conjuration spells can’t create substances or objects within a creature. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds.

That's an extra 840 gallons per round. Combined with 90 gallons per round from 3 decanters, that's 930 gallons per round. The box was 105,000 cubed feet. That's 10437 (rounded up for simplicity) gallons. That's 12 rounds.

And that's not even taking into account the Tarrasque taking up space in the box, which would be most of it.

It's not that hard.





A scarab may cause death for a medium sized human with a medium sized heart.

But a Tarrasque is Collossal. I imagine the scarab would be not but a heartworm in the beast. With the ridiculous regeneration, the scarab wouldn't do any permanent damage, except where it nestled.

Also, the scarab may not even penetrate 30 natural armor. Cloth and leather and flesh hardly counts for the armor plates of a magic beastie.
Nowhere in the description of the Scarab does it say that it needs to make an attack roll or can only work on a medium sized creature. If something the size of a scarab borrowed into anyone's heart, it would kill it.


EDIT:
I just realised I hadn't taken into account that some of the clerics would run out of spells.
Meh. That's enough maths for today.

AtomicKitKat
2005-08-24, 01:57 AM
You have to make the walls bigger than the Tarrasque, simply because I don't think the bugger will be standing still long enough to let you make the smallest possible dimensions. A Tarrasque can still Jump even if it has no actual ranks, and since its Strength modifier is so high, it will be clearing quite a large distance(based on its own height too, if I recall).

You forgot to account for one more thing. The Tarrasque might still be able to do one of the following:

1) Drink all the water in the cube after it's sealed(not likely, due to low Int limiting its strategy, but still possible)

2) Grab one of the decanters and Sunder them, rendering the strategy worthless.

Also, you failed to account for the fact that you cannot move the wall of force once it's placed(short of dispelling). You need a 7th wall if you expect to seal the opening. Small detail, but still worth noting.

Wih
2005-08-24, 02:10 AM
You have to make the walls bigger than the Tarrasque, simply because I don't think the bugger will be standing still long enough to let you make the smallest possible dimensions. A Tarrasque can still Jump even if it has no actual ranks, and since its Strength modifier is so high, it will be clearing quite a large distance(based on its own height too, if I recall).

You forgot to account for one more thing. The Tarrasque might still be able to do one of the following:

1) Drink all the water in the cube after it's sealed(not likely, due to low Int limiting its strategy, but still possible)

2) Grab one of the decanters and Sunder them, rendering the strategy worthless.

Also, you failed to account for the fact that you cannot move the wall of force once it's placed(short of dispelling). You need a 7th wall if you expect to seal the opening. Small detail, but still worth noting.
True. Another useful spell to use against the Tarrasque is Reverse Gravity.
You don't need to cast the walls around the tarrasque - once he's in the right position below the walls, you just cast Reverse Gravity - no save, no SR. He 'falls' into the box, and you cast Wall of Force to keep him there.

The problem that everyone is pointing out is that this can't be done in one round.
Never said it could be. But it can be done =)

Oh, and sundering a bottle at the corner of the box would be about as easy as sundering a pinhead at the coner of a cardboard box, through a hole the size of a pinhole.
I think not.

Sotha_Cid
2005-08-24, 02:27 AM
Wait, how much damage does suffocation/drowning do? Doesn't the whole regeneration thing throw things into whack?

Of course, I'm just one of those lowly players who doesn't have the DMG and has never faced the monster in question.

OrionPax
2005-08-24, 02:36 AM
This is a little off subject, but who besides me hates the new picture of the tarrasque in the monster manual? The 2nd edition picture was great, and then they made it look like a huge turtle. I hate the artist who did this to the tarrasque! :(

Wih
2005-08-24, 02:40 AM
Wait, how much damage does suffocation/drowning do? *Doesn't the whole regeneration thing throw things into whack?

Of course, I'm just one of those lowly players who doesn't have the DMG and has never faced the monster in question.

Use the SRD (d20srd.org). I've posted the rules for drowning in a previous post. Here they are again:


Drowning
Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1.

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.

It is possible to drown in substances other than water, such as sand, quicksand, fine dust, and silos full of grain.

Drowning isn't based off damage per round, so it doesn't matter about it's DR or Regeneration. It's simply unconcious after one round, dying after two, and *dead* after three rounds. Then you can wish it to stay dead. Bye-bye Mr. Tarrasque.

Sotha_Cid
2005-08-24, 02:45 AM
Ah. This is all a little Rube Goldberg, though. And, despite the fact I've never tried to kill one, I kinda picture them being like Ultralisks. But at any rate, there's got to be a faster way to slaughter a big, honkin' monster.

Wih
2005-08-24, 02:52 AM
Ah. *This is all a little Rube Goldberg, though. *And, despite the fact I've never tried to kill one, I kinda picture them being like Ultralisks. *But at any rate, there's got to be a faster way to slaughter a big, honkin' monster.
Read: Big Honking Monster that can't be touched with aimed spells. I suppose if the tarrasque rolled a natural 1 on a save-or-die spell, or a very high level cleric with the Death domain....

AtomicKitKat
2005-08-24, 02:56 AM
This is a little off subject, but who besides me hates the new picture of the tarrasque in the monster manual? The 2nd edition picture was great, and then they made it look like a huge turtle. I hate the artist who did this to the tarrasque! :(

Sigh, Prime was a Saint! Never let anyone tell you otherwise!

Back on topic, yeah, the old one looked like a sort of horned ape/minotaur type thing(kinda reminds me of Pansuto-taro from Ranma 1/2 actually), while the new one looks like it got hit with a yellow epoxy gun.

Sotha_Cid
2005-08-24, 03:00 AM
How about a carefully phrased wish/miracle spell? I know you need one to permanently kill it, but couldn't you use it to kill it in the first place? Or, say, wish that it was in outer space?

And I think it could eat the decanter.

Wih
2005-08-24, 03:02 AM
How about a carefully phrased wish/miracle spell? *I know you need one to permanently kill it, but couldn't you use it to kill it in the first place? *Or, say, wish that it was in outer space?

And I think it could eat the decanter.

While yes, wishing that it was in outer space would kill it, it won't stay dead unless you wish again, after it's dead.
And you wont know when that is.
Also, it'll eventually fall into orbit and crash into a planet, causing mass destruction, and reawakening it.

And I think it'd need a very long, very thin tongue to eat a diminuitive decanter that's not even in the same box as it o.O

VariaVespasa
2005-08-24, 03:05 AM
Right then. Let's do maths from scratch again.
The Tarrasque is 70/30long, 50 tall (see description), so let's calculate that for 70/50ft. That's 10ft^2 per CL, so the combined CL needed to prison the Tarrasque would be:
That's 2(3*5)+2(7*5)+2(7*3) = 30+70+42 = 142

...Right, I can see the flaw with my answer here. But there is an easy way around it.
Two spells per round (One quicken, one widened) from a 20th level caster = 60. This is 3 rounds work from one person. Two rounds from two (minus the 'lid'). One round from three.

With preparation, that's easy. The next part - filling the box. A box that is 30*70*50 is 105,000 cubed feet. Remember, of course, that this time is not including that the space that the Tarrasque takes up.

Lets also say that each mage has the Leadership feat, with a healthy (har har) amount of clerics.
Considering the mages will be level 20, that's well over the Legendary level of 11, so Great renown (+2) is easy. They're magic users, so that's Special power (+1) aswell. Even at a -1 for 8 CHA, that's still leadership level of 22, which means they each get:
1 15th level
75 1st level
7 2nd level
4 3rd level
2 4th level
2 5th level
1 6th level
Clerics. That's 140 CL per mage, which comes to 420 CL


That's an extra 840 gallons per round. Combined with 90 gallons per round from 3 decanters, that's 930 gallons per round. The box was 105,000 cubed feet. That's 10437 (rounded up for simplicity) gallons. That's 12 rounds.

And that's not even taking into account the Tarrasque taking up space in the box, which would be most of it.

It's not that hard.



Nowhere in the description of the Scarab does it say that it needs to make an attack roll or can only work on a medium sized creature. If something the size of a scarab borrowed into anyone's heart, it would kill it.


EDIT:
I just realised I hadn't taken into account that some of the clerics would run out of spells.
Meh. That's enough maths for today.

Actually its much easier than that to fill it- a little decanter action to get a film of water and then 4 or so control water spells (from lvl 8 casters, fewer if you have higher casters available) to raise the water level by 64 feet, which should do it nicely. :)

Plus, if this is a prepared ambush, then a bit of preparatory engineering to be ready to divert water from a nearby river or lake should be easily doable instead, if thats your fancy.

*Hugs*
Varia

Wih
2005-08-24, 03:14 AM
Actually its much easier than that to fill it- a little decanter action to get a film of water and then 4 or so control water spells (from lvl 8 casters, fewer if you have higher casters available) to raise the water level by 64 feet, which should do it nicely. :)

Plus, if this is a prepared ambush, then a bit of preparatory engineering to be ready to divert water from a nearby river or lake should be easily doable instead, if thats your fancy.

*Hugs*
Varia


Genius! And hugs too! Woo! ;D
Control Water. That would work, as long as something was stopping the tarrasque from moving to an area in the box where the water wasn't all around his face.

VariaVespasa
2005-08-24, 03:22 AM
Dont even have to do the wall of force box really either- a nice conventional pit with thick stone sides, and a few feet of water in the bottom will do. Lure it over the pit with some form of live bait (bad day to be the cow that isnt giving milk anymore maybe...), 1-2 walls of force over the top as it falls in to prevent it getting out, raise water till the pit is overflowing, then kick back with your pina coladas and take bets on how many rounds till it drowns, and youre done. The stone walls of the pit just have to hold long enough for it to drown, so that shouldnt be an issue.

The walls of your prepared pit can be reinforced with walls of iron and/or a few forcecaged chickens to ensure that the terrasque stays put long enough to become your favorite pool toy, if youre not satisfied with a stone-walled pit.

*Hugs*
Varia

PS- I still say its a seriously silly monster. :P

Wayne
2005-08-24, 03:37 AM
*sighs*

The Wall of Force idea is completely unworkable for many reasons:

-Each Wall lasts for one round per level, and it costs 2500XP per wall to make them permanent,
-The spell has a casting range of Close, meaning that it's not going to be hard for Big T to reach out and eat you [unless he's asleep, and if he's asleep beating him becomes a joke anyway], since he can hop a few Walls of Force. But that's a moot point, because,
-Wall of Force now only creates vertical walls (so you can't "cap" the "box") that must be continuous and unbroken (so you have to use multiple different Walls to actually seal him in).
-"Unbroken" means that they can't be formed where something already is. The Tarrasque, via damage, can simply destroy enough ground and rock to "burrow" underneath any standing walls. This isn't unreasonable, since normal animals do it too. It'll take him some time-- but not nearly as long as it would take to fill up a Box of Force... if, of course, it was possible to make one.

The hilariously broken Reverse Gravity, however, will work-- if you have a high enough caster level to affect the entire Tarrasque with your 10' cube/2 levels area. (I don't feel like doing the math, heh, but Big T is really big.) But beating the Tarrasque with RG is like killing your endboss by Gating him to the Negative Energy Plane. Sure, by the rules, you can, but where's the sport in that?

Beating the Tarrasque is possible as soon as any PC has the ability to bypass his DR and Regeneration. I recommend a, say, 13th level Rogue with +4 Magical Beast Bane Arrows and a few Potions of Fly and a scroll of Greater Invisibility. (And a Ring of Three Wishes or something, unless you have a caster on hand for the Coup de Grace.) Since you get SA damage every round, it's OK to move (so that in the off chance he tries to use Scent to find you or swing blindly, it won't help) and just get one shot.

Assuming you have 18 Str and a +4 Mighty Composite Longbow, your damage should be d8+4 Str+4 arrows+2d6 Bane+7d6 = 44 (dealing 4 damage over his Regen); at this point add the stuff that you should have, like Energy Damage on your bow (it applies), Keen arrows, higher Str, etc., will just get the job done faster (Greater Manyshot greatly expedites the bothersome process of shooting the Tarrasque full of arrows; regular Manyshot is fine too; or you could just take full-round attacks if you have a way to make sure the Tarrasque can't hit you.

So that's how one 13th level PC beats him. For groups, I'd suggest leading off with an Invisible Wizard with Arcane Mastery (take 10 on checks to beat SR) and a high caster level mod to hit him with Otto's Irrestable Disco and just wailing away on him with the party fighters. Sure, there's better ways to do it, but watching the Tarrasque go "YMCA!" as you hack him apart has a certain visceral charm. :]

Edit: Someone mentioned Walls of Stone. They don't work for the simple reason that the Tarrasque can gnaw them down-- Power Attacking for 20 (he can actually go up to 48, but he probably won't swing that hard) means he deals 55 average damage with his Bite alone, while still being guaranteed to hit-- against the wall's 8 hardness and 90hp (he can also tear them down; Masonry Walls in the PHB-- thicker than the Walls that WoS creates-- have a break DC of 35, and he has a +17 Str mod). Again, this is totally within the realm of animal intelligence (thrashing against the walls while he's drowning).

Wih
2005-08-24, 03:44 AM
Dont even have to do the wall of force box really either- a nice conventional pit with thick stone sides, and a few feet of water in the bottom will do. *Lure it over the pit with some form of live bait (bad day to be the cow that isnt giving milk anymore maybe...), 1-2 walls of force over the top as it falls in to prevent it getting out, raise water till the pit is overflowing, then kick back with your pina coladas and take bets on how many rounds till it drowns, and youre done. *The stone walls of the pit just have to hold long enough for it to drown, so that shouldnt be an issue.

The walls of your prepared pit can be reinforced with walls of iron and/or a few forcecaged chickens to ensure that the terrasque stays put long enough to become your favorite pool toy, if youre not satisfied with a stone-walled pit.

*Hugs*
Varia

PS- I still say its a seriously silly monster. :P

Heh, more hugs ^_^ The problem with using a wall other than the wall of force is that the Tarrasque has Awesome Blow. He can knock any other wall away, or just plain destroy it with it's absurd strength (45).

Wall of Iron = 25 + 2 per inch of thickness (1 inch thick per four caster levels)
Wall of Ice = 15 + caster level
Wall of Stone = 20 + 2 per inch of thickness (1 inch thick per four caster levels)

45 STR has a +17 modifier. That's enough to break any of those by the time the water's high enoug hto drown it.


Wall of Force now only creates vertical walls (so you can't "cap" the "box") that must be continuous and unbroken (so you have to use multiple different Walls to actually seal him in).
Damn. Didn't notice that. There goes my idea...but finding a way to drown him is still a very easy way to kill the blighter...if anyone can think of a viable way.

VariaVespasa
2005-08-24, 04:20 AM
The vertical only thing might be an issue (although spell research is a fun thing... Should be perferctly easy to research a variant that is horizontal only) but duration isnt an issue. A couple of lvl 15 wizards can cast 8 of the things between them (needing 2 to cap a pit), each lasting 15 rounds, so if they recast them when they have 1 round left on the originals they can maintain the walls for 57 rounds, and, assuming a previous posters' maths is correct, the terrasque can hold out for a maximum of 43. If they just sit quietly invisible till the critter falls in the pit they wont get eaten before they cast the first ones. And thats assuming the wizards dont have the duration-enhancing feat, of course.

If you dont like walls of force, the wall of iron-lined pit will keep him from digging his way out any time soon, and a nice, conventional avalanche will keep him down in it long enough to flood his hole from the local lake or river. Add a forcecage or two (duration 2 hours per level or so) just above him for humorous results if he tries to jump before you finish capping the hole some other way.

Bear in mind that the tarrasque is not very fast, and does not, in fact, have any burrowing ability, so it is NOT actually going to dig very far in the 30-40 rounds it has, even if it was in a mere dirt pit. With a stone or iron-lined pit its toast if it cant climb or jump out.

Jumping- The tarrasque is slow (20) and thus has a -6 penalty on its jump checks. It does not have the jump skill, so its jumping on brute strength alone, for which it gets +17 from its stat, for a total mod of +11. The DC for an 8 foot high-jump, with the necessary run-up which it is unlikely to have in the bottom of a pit, is 32. With only a +11 on the roll thats gonna be...difficult. Ok, you can scale that up for its size, so its actually trying a 120 foot jump for that DC of 32, or since it doesnt have the correspondingly larger run-up for it (which doubles the DC), its actually trying a 60 foot jump with a DC of 32. So a pit 60 feet higher than its maximum reach in a posture that permits vertical jumping (a 70' turtle-ish kinda thing might maybe have a reach of 90 feet and still be able to jump vertically, so a nice 150 foot pit should do nicely. 200 feet for safetly, if you like. Ok, you may have to add a few more control waters, but since you can have 40 feet of water in the bottom of the pit to start with (which will seriously impede jumping attempts too), and its only a 4rth level spell for clerics and druids, that wont present a real challenge to provide.

*Hugs*
Varia

VariaVespasa
2005-08-24, 04:57 AM
You're forgetting, we're talking about a stone or iron-lined PIT here, not free-standing walls. Freestanding walls, yes, it might be able to break through in time. Lining a pit, on the other hand, he's toast. He cant awesome blow the walls meaningfully since theyre backed by miles of earth. Theyre going nowhere. At best it can maybe claim 1d6 damage to the wall per blow, but since its a standard action to perform its not exactly time-efficient. We're talking at least 2-foot thick walls here (thats 720hp at wall of stone spell rates), and personally I'd go for 5 feet if I had the time (and if youre digging 200 foot pits you probably do...), and thats 1800 hp to hack through. Against that the tarrasque can deploy 4 attacks doing low-50's damage after hardness per round using maximum power attack (no room to use the tail swipe at the same spot he's using horns and claws on, and no, you cant actually bite a flat wall...) for about 225 damage per round, so its gonna take about 8 rounds. Thats just to get through a 5x5 section. It needs to break through at least 9 such sections to make a large enough hole to get its body through, which means 70 or so rounds of work, when it only has maybe 40 rounds to live. Even if you say that after it punches a 5x10 hole in the wall it then has enough space to get its fat head through to start using its bite too its way too little way too late. And even if it succeeded and made the hole, congratulations, its STILL in a hole 200 feet down, under 60 feet of water, which doesnt actually help it a whole bunch...

For the other point- using control water, the water will be high enough to drown it inside 2 rounds (using 2 lvl 12 clerics/druids) so no, it doesnt have the luxury of time.

*Hugs*
Varia

VariaVespasa
2005-08-24, 05:06 AM
Vertical walls of force- even if you cant research a horizontal version, or dont have the time, they can still be used to cap the pit- just do a 4-sided box of connected walls of force at the 150 foot level above the pit bottom about 10 feet in from the pit walls and 2 more as bars across the inside of the box. It cant climb walls of force, the grid of bars formed by the bottoms of the walls keep it in the pit, and the water will be deep enough that it cant try to sit just below the bars and crane its neck up between them to the surface to breath. Such a shame. :) Requires a a couple more mages but still doable.

*Hugs*
Varia

Wayne
2005-08-24, 05:20 AM
The issue is that you can't actually cap the pit. Wall of Force does not allow you to make horizontal planes-- and that's a balance thing. The spell was horribly broken in 3.0 (it even had a "hemisphere" function) and led to auto-kills in conjunction with spells like Cloudkill and Incendiary Fog. If your DM lets you research a spell as brokenly powerful as a "Box of Force," then you've already won D&D against non-casters. *chuckles*

Edit: How do those "bars" work? I'm not sure I follow.

So basically, what happens is that the Tarrasque gets carried to the top of the pit by the water (nothing says he won't float), or else climbs up himself by digging* into the walls or bracing against them. Once there he simply tears open the stone or iron on top of the pit (I like those cute houserules about not being able to use his tail on the same target as his horns, or not being able to bite a wall; but those are just your houserules, and both maneuvers are perfectly legal) and climbs out.

*Speaking of "digging," not having a Burrow speed (in the MM, all it does is let you move through earth at normal speeds) does not keep you from tunneling through the ground; you simply can't do it "for free." Nothing in D&D says you can't dig (else how do adventurers dig graves... or pits? :P), so the Tarrasque would totally be able to do so. As for how much earth he could move in a round... I don't know, but it probably wouldn't be hard to dig a path, since he does so much damage and can hold his breath for a long time.

I'm not certain how "lining a pit" is supposed to work. Walls of Stone "must be merged with and supported by existing stone"-- you would have to be generous to assume that you can fully encircle a pit and hit bedrock every time. Walls of Iron must always be "flat, vertical walls", so run into the same problem as the Walls of Force (plus if you wanted to iron-line a pit, it would have to be square, which makes it even easier to climb out of). And in any event, both walls are 1'' thick per four caster levels, so even a hypothetical 16th level Wizard is only creating 4'' thick walls (60hp for stone, 120hp for Iron)-- the Tarrasque can easily tear such a wall down in one round; probably two or three if he goes crazy and dumps all 48 points of BAB into his Power Attacks (which, again, to save his life, he probably would do).

And finally, once the Tarrasque starts climbing, no more walls can be set up, since they cannot intersect a living being (and trying to trap him with Walls of Stone would probably just make stairs for him to escape with, due to Big T's +29 Reflex save).

The "Wall" spells are largely "plot device" spells-- they have extensive limitations [and don't last long against high-level opponents anyway] that make them difficult if not impossible to use in combat. (Even your examples, Varia, assume multiple high-level casters with nothing else memorized but the Wall spells, and arguably even then plenty of time spent preparing this pit and "lining" it (again, if that's even possible).)

This is even assuming that the line in the Tarrasque's entry-- "Can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage..."-- can be parsed to mean that drowning will actually kill the Tarrasque. Remember, drowning sets a victim's hp to 0, and then -1, and then "dead." The Tarrasque can "only be killed" by dealing at least 868 damage to it and then wishing it dead. While it might be logical to assume that drowning the Tarrasque will kill it, it may not even work at all. "Only" is a strong conditional in D&D.

No, your best bet is to just grab a Rogue or Warlock that can punch through its Regen with crazy damage while avoiding retaliation. Taking an entire team of casters against him is overkill when one guy can do it. :D

VariaVespasa
2005-08-24, 07:59 AM
I'm assuming that the people involved will have plenty of warning that a tarrasque is around and will prepare their spells accordingly, so if the plan calls for walls of force and control waters then they will have them.

Yes, I assume a tarrasque can float. Well, swim, anyway. However the "bars" will prevent him reaching the top of the pit or anywhere near the surface of the water. The same bars, being made of walls of force and thus not breakable by the tarrasque, will prevent it from just digging its claws into the (presumeably clawable) walls and climbing out, because its too large to fit between the gaps in the bars.

The bars- Take some walls of force, all cast vertically as normal. Now look at them from underneath. The bottoms of all those walls of force are effectively bars. A wall of force is no more passable from the top/bottom/sides than it is from the front/back. Indeed, unless a wall of force is deemed to have noticeable thickness, then its effectively a razorblade if you hit it from the edges. I know of at least 1 dragon that became 2 dragons the hard way after meeting the edge of a wall of force head on unexpectedly... Anyways, all you have to do is cast those vertical walls of force such that the bottoms of them form a grid that is too small for the tarrasque to fit through, and have it set far enough down the hole that the critter cant reach air. I suggest that 4 walls set in a rectangle about 10 feet smaller than the inside of the pit, with 2 more across the inside of that rectangle will suffice to trap the bulky tarrasque below them. None of the walls actually touch any of the others, there is a space of a foot or two between each one. When it comes time to refresh the walls you just cast the next one a few inches away from the current ones and a few inches higher. If the tarrasque is scrabbling around one side of one of the walls (and it probably is, trying to get out) then just cast the new wall a few inches on the opposite side instead. A wall cannot be cast touching any other object or creature, but to the best of my knowledge you CAN cast them in water.

Biting/tailing- Ok, there are a couple of muzzle designs that would possibly permit sort of biting at a flat surface (although there is NO real creature on earth which has such a shaped muzzle), so it might or might not possibly be able to add its bite into the equation as well, depending on the exact shape of its face. If it doesnt have the right shape to its face and jaws its out of luck trying to bite something thats too big to fit in its jaws. For its tail, its a tail slap. That means its behind the critter. Its hard to use a weapon thats behind you on something thats in front of you, and impossible if you dont have enough room to turn around. I'm assuming a pit thats small enough at the bottom to make it hard for it to turn around. Yes, theyre "cute house rules", but theyre well backed by easily observed reality and common sense, and merely because its "perfectly legal" does not excuse anyone from using their common sense. I you thank you to refrain from using further condesceding remarks. In any event, whether it takes it 70-odd rounds to hack through a wall with 4 attacks per round, or 45 rounds with all 6, its still longer than it has.

Burrowing- burrowing lets you move through earth at 10' per round typically, although there are a few exceptions that are faster (ankheg, forinstance). The tarrasque does not have burrow at all, and therefore is not among their number. Therefore, while yes, it could conceivably dig through the earth given time, it is not suited for the task (hence no burrowing skill) and it would be very slow, just like digging graves is slow. Yes, we dig graves. It takes an hour or two to dig a hole our own height. The tarrasque has 7 minutes at most.

Lining a pit- "existing stone"- Well, I'm not positive that it means it must be anchored to bedrock. Extending an already existing stone wall or building a new one off an existing stone structure would probably be perfectly acceptable for that restriction. So just extend the wall of stone off an existing, or specially built, stone structure nearby. If that is not deemed acceptable then dig your pit where you will reach the bedrock and anchor it off that. Since luring the tarrasque to a place of your chosing is a fundamental part of the plan it doesnt really matter where the pit is, specifically. And once you have your first wall anchored it is permissable to anchor succeeding walls off earlier ones and thus spread your construction over the area you need to cover, in this case the walls of your pit. Thickness- You can double the area of a wall by halving its thickness. Presumeably the reverse is true? And even if it isnt, just build several layers right up against each other till you have the desired thickness. three 4" thick walls right against each other = one 12" thick wall etc.

Another option is fun with mud to rock- walls of iron a foot out from the sides of your pit, fill the gap between the iron and the pit side with water, let stand till you have mud (or you can do this with the soften earth spell if you prefer) then cast mud to rock and voila, instant 10 foot thick stone lining. Yes, its soft stone so the tarrasque could probably hack through it twice as fast as regular stone, but its also twice as thick as my proposed 5 foot walls, so its still the same overall time, and way more than the wee beasty has. An layer of iron over the stone is just icing on the cake.

Walls of iron are created vertically. True. But they've been known to fall over to become horizontal. Theyre designed to do that, you know...

A further explaination of the bars issue- Take a nice tall narrow box, say one a refrigerator came in. Cut the top off. Its about 3 feet by 3 feet by 6 feet. Now imagine that box represents the sides and bottom of the pit. Put a large 2' diameter stuffed teddy bear in the bottom of the box. Thats the tarrasque. Now, get another box, about 27" by 27" by 3 feet high. Cut the top off that box. Then, using spare cardboard, cut 2 27" long by 3' rectangles, and tape them vertically across the inside the box, 1 9' from the left side of the box, and the other 9" from the right side, so that the interior of the box as you look down into it from on top is divided into 3 equal 9 inch wide by 27 inch long by 3 foot deep sections. Now cut the bottom off the box. Now pick the box up, and lower it into the refrigerator box till the top of the box is level with the top of the refrigerator box, and the sides are 9 inches from the side of the refrigerator box. The smaller "box", now consisting of only nice, legal vertical surfaces, represents the walls of force intended to trap the tarrasque inside. (Obviously in the real event there will be a 1 foot gap between each wall of force, but you get the idea) Now fill the refrigerator box to the top with water. Now, without moving or damaging the cardboard of the smaller box (because theyre walls of force and cant be damaged) try and get the 24 inch diameter teddy bear out through the 9 inch wide holes... Same problem the tarrasque will have, except, depending whether or not walls of force are sharp or not, the bottom of the smaller box may all be razor blades into the bargain, or effectively so to a critter trying to exert a 45 strength against them, just as a 1/16 inch thick piece of sheet metal may not be sharp per se, but you still wouldnt like what would happen if you tried to stand on the edge of it...

As to getting a rogue who can punch through its regen etc- I dont know the 3.5 "appropriate wealth by level" guidelines:- how in-line or out of line is the gear Wayne has proposed for his suggested rogue solution? For the bow, ammo, and a 2 or 3 point strength booster, since a rogue probably does not have an 18 strength without one. Oh, am I not correct in thinking that a 13 rogue with +4 dex, +4 bow, +4 ammo, and a bab of 9 will still need about a natural 11 on the dice to hit the tarrasques flat-footed ac of 32?

Permanent walls of force- if it actually comes to that 2500 exp isnt actually all that much, considering what a tarrasque is probably worth if you kill it and sell the bits...

*hugs*
Varia

Premier
2005-08-24, 08:09 AM
Just curious, what makes people think that the Tarrasque cannot hold its breath for 20 minutes? Or 20 days? Or 20 centuries? Or that it doesn't have a set of gills? Or that it needs oxygen to survive in the first place?

The Tarrasque is a force of nature that sleeps for a long, long time, then ravages through the lands in a fit of hunger and fury. Chances are, it's rather well-used to hybernating in hermetically sealed caves for untold periods of time - it's preposterous to assume that being submersed in water will just make it drown in a few minutes.

VariaVespasa
2005-08-24, 10:02 AM
What makes me think that? Well mainly that not having to breath would be a major ability with significant implications and should most certainly have been mentioned if it had that ability. There is not the slightest mention or hint of it having that ability and therefore its reasonable to strongly presume that it doesnt. Therefore, DROWN THAT PUPPY!!!

And its not like its exactly a free and easy kill. Level 15's dont exactly grow on trees in any normal campaign (well, any normal 1rst or 2cnd edition campaign anyway, although I get the impression that thats not so much the case in 3.5) and it takes a week or so of prep time to do the pit thing, during which time you have to keep the thing entertained so it doesnt wander off or cause too much incidental damage.

Besides, its such a howlingly silly monster that I'm not the least bit interested in anything that could remotely increase its lifespan. :P If I could use sympathetic magic to set fire to that page in my monster manual and thus set fire to every other copy of that page in the world I would! :P

So it can die Die DIE. Or invest in scuba lessions, one or the other. :P

*Hugs*
Varia

Rigeld
2005-08-24, 10:24 AM
Trap the Soul
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, (F); see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action or see text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text

Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken.

Depending on the version selected, the spell can be triggered in one of two ways.
Spell Completion

First, the spell can be completed by speaking its final word as a standard action as if you were casting a regular spell at the subject. This allows spell resistance (if any) and a Will save to avoid the effect. If the creature’s name is spoken as well, any spell resistance is ignored and the save DC increases by 2. If the save or spell resistance is successful, the gem shatters.
Trigger Object

The second method is far more insidious, for it tricks the subject into accepting a trigger object inscribed with the final spell word, automatically placing the creature’s soul in the trap. To use this method, both the creature’s name and the trigger word must be inscribed on the trigger object when the gem is enspelled. A sympathy spell can also be placed on the trigger object. As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger object, its life force is automatically transferred to the gem without the benefit of spell resistance or a save.
Material Component

Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature to be trapped. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the entrapment is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)
Focus (Trigger Object Only)

If the trigger object method is used, a special trigger object, prepared as described above, is needed.

Give Bessy the cow a gem that has been prepared with the Trigger function (50k worth gemstone) as a necklace, or something like that. Place Bessy in a herd of cows. Big T eats the herd. Big T's lifeforce is now trapped in a little gemstone. Teh Winz.

Spuddly
2005-08-24, 02:00 PM
Nowhere in the description of the Scarab does it say that it needs to make an attack roll or can only work on a medium sized creature. If something the size of a scarab borrowed into anyone's heart, it would kill it.

But the description of the Scarab makes it clear that it targets the type that go looking for treasure. It's hardly feasible that an itty bitty beetle could instantly kill a 130 ton magical beast just by nibbling on its heart.

Yes, if a scarab burrowed into anyone's heart, they would surely die. Big T is not an anyone, it is an anything, and a magical anything at that.
Clearly you have little concept of how heart and size relate to each other. A heart can take a proportional amount of damage to the heart's size. For instance, if I shot you in the heart with a .30-06, you'd die. It'd essentially be a critical hit on a 1/2 or 1 HD creature. Now if I shot a bear, a large, multiple hit die creature, in the heart with a .30-06, it could stay up for several very ferocious minutes before collapsing.

The bigger the heart, the more damage it can take. I'd imagine a Tarrasque has a bloody gigantic heart, and wouldn't be affected by something so small.

With such a huge reflex save, there's no guarantee that the Tarrasque would fall into a pit trap, especially if the walls are made of stone. All it would have to do is grab a wall with its immense strength, and digging its claws into the stone, pull itself out.

Making a large pit trap would be time consuming, but doable. If the pit were to be 200 feet deep, you'd have to make the top 400' feet wide to keep it from collapsing. Not much of a problem if you throw bull strength and the like on your workers, or use golems or animated shovels and the like.

After your pit is dug, build a 100 foot by 100 foot box, 200 feet tall. Perhaps build it up sort of like a pyramid without a core, so it doesn't collapse, then fill all the sides back in with all the earth.

You now have a giant box, 200 feet deep, and 100 feet sqaure. Big enough to catch a Tarrasque in. make sure the floor is stone, and coat everything in iron. Make the box real reinforced, real horrorshow.

Now fill the bottom about 50 feet deep with water and seal the box up with a fragile lid, and bait it.

Cast a force cage above the box, and reverse gravity all the left over dirt up into the force cage. When the Tarrasque takes the bait, he'll be standing over the pit. Release the reverse grav, and tons upon tons of dirt come piling down on top of him, smashing him into the box.

The box will be partially filled with heaps of dirt and water and a very angry Tarrasque. Pretty soon thing will get very muddy at the bottom. Before the Tarrasque starts climbing out or smashing walls (which would be very difficult in a lot of mud), you cast–

Mud to Stone.

Bye bye Mr T.

Just because Mr T doesn't have a burrow speed doesn't mean he can't dig. Do cats and dogs have burrow speeds? No. But have any of you ever watched a dog dig beneath a fence to escape? What about a cat when it digs in kitty litter? I bet most dirt would be like kitty litter to a Tarrasque.

amanodel
2005-08-24, 02:02 PM
Ohh guys you and your overcomplicated versions.... Reading that you dig out 60x60 feet pits I assume that there's asignificant amount preparing for the attack.

1-Just give me a fair level 10 bard and it's all done. If the only task is to get the tarrasque dead then this way is good, but no guarantees that something worse wont happen.
By 10th level you can have 20 (+5) CHA, 13 skill ranks in bluff, plus a persuasive feat that grants you +2 bluff. Thats +20. Pick that nasty Glibness spell for another +30. Thats no less then +50. With an avarage roll you got +60, which is far enough to convince anybody about everything (I think that 40 or 50 stands for impossible). Just convince some (10d4) nasty great red wyrms that the tarrasque needs to be destroyed (Mr. T was sent to kill all the dragons, etc.) and lean back and watch the show.

2-The other way only need laughably weak characters. Just brew a great number (100 or so) of fireball potions, trigger them, get Mr T. swallow them and activate the trigger. And don't forget to take cover from the blood splitting all over the place.

Meat Shield
2005-08-24, 02:36 PM
I would say Rigelds Trap the Soul takes care of the discussion.

Death_McMuffin
2005-08-24, 03:18 PM
Why don't you just line the pit with walls of force. It can't burrow through a wall of force now can it?

Lokey
2005-08-24, 03:35 PM
There's the XP cost for permanent Walls of Force Death McG.

For RaW, it's better than the 3.0 Tarrasque that a level 15 or so cler with Travel domain could blow up only paying the XP cost for the Miracle to permanently destroy the Terra. (Easy touch attack and SR was doable, so you need flight and something to sneak with then Timestop, Harm, Max Inflict Critical Wounds or Quickened same, then Miracle on the first real round when the time stop ends and your neg energy rips it apart.)

I hope most DMs would make Rigeld's plan more difficult than scribbling The Tarrasque on a random necklace and feeding it to the thing though (all you need to defeat the Apocalytic Herald is a standard spell, sigh). Even if it's only finding out how much value your gemstone needs, finding such a gem and finding what name will work. At least that's better than I buy a gem worth 50 001 gp and cast one of my 8th level spells for the day, 48k xp and a Tarrasque hide to sell!

I'd go for some kind of feed it the Alchemist's Fire production of a large city and set it off or find a way to slap a giant size ring of sustenance on it...or some kind of deadfall trap/drowning deal like bagging King Kong.

Spuddly
2005-08-24, 03:43 PM
What if the chewing action of the Tarrasque destroyed the gem before it Trapped the Soul?

Rigeld
2005-08-24, 03:47 PM
What if the chewing action of the Tarrasque destroyed the gem before it Trapped the Soul?

It doesnt - Pickup up Bessy is accepting the gem, which Traps his soul right there. Bessy might not even die in the process! (Some of her herd might...) What a courageous cow!

IDHMBWM but what level can you afford a 50k gem and about 20 cows by? :) Gogo commoners!

Wayne
2005-08-24, 03:51 PM
The Tarrasque has so few immunities that he's not hard to take down, this is true. Heck, he only has a +20 Will save; a 20th level Enchanter with Dominate Monster can just go put a leash on him with likely a 50% chance of success.

That said, I think the "barred pit" idea would work, since Walls of Force don't have to be anchored against anything (they can be free-standing) and the 2500XP per wall cost to make them permanent isn't unreasonable for our hypothetical team of high-level casters. Rules-wise it would never work in the first place (+29 to Reflex is "lol what pit?"), unless you got Big T to run and thereby give up his save (completely a DM call), but it's not a bad idea.

Trap the Soul-- Hilariously, Trap the Soul requires you to actually touch the trigger object... nothing happens if you eat it without deliberately grabbing it first [the subject "must pick up or accept" it]. This is even assuming gems worth 48000gp even exist... I'm not aware of any in the books (unless you have the ruby off Asmodeus's scepter or something), and you can't Wish for them.

Scarab of Death-- Like Spuddly mentioned, Big T's +29 Reflex save means he automatically "tears the scarab away" (taking 3d6 damage... heh), and in any event is not likely to actually hold it for the one full round required (he would either drop it or eat it, assuming he caught it in the first place-- some animals will play fetch, but some will not, heh).

Fireball Potions-- Even more hilarious, since it would check for Big T's SR (32) against the potion's minimum (5th)-- impossible. Assuming that 1 in 20 get through (and that these are also the 1 in 20 the Tarrasque fails his save against), he only takes 17 damage (if all the 5d6 potions went off, and the Tarrasque failed all his Reflex saves, he'd still only take 350 damage... not even half his hp). It's a nasty case of heartburn, but hardly fatal.

Naturally, this is assuming he's not Fire Immune... which he is.

Bluffing teams to kill Big T-- You're overthinking it. With a Diplomacy mod of +50 (so you can do it in one round) you can get Hextor and Heironeous to put aside their differences and team up to kill the Tarrasque for you. The Red Dragons might turn you down once they get there and realize there's no treasure, but with the gods as your total allies, you're set.

(Fixed-DC skill uses suck. Gah. *stabs 3.5*)

More pit trap shenanigans-- Trying to restrain him in anything natural is probably an exercise in futility. Remember, by Power Attacking for 42 (the highest he can go while still being able to hit AC 10 automatically), he does 77+55 x2+56 x2+63 = 362, checking for Hardness 6 times. The bite alone gnaws down 4 inches of stone on average. And once he starts going you can't reinforce the walls, since there's a creature (heh) in the way.

Sure, if you have a big team of wizards who burrowed out a massive pit and then layered dozens of feet of stone or iron walls into it-- and then somehow got the Tarrasque to fall in (+29 save)-- and then use Varia's "bars of Force" idea to make sure the water doesn't simply carry him out of the pit-- then you've got him, probably [again, it's a judgment call as to whether or not drowning him even works]. But if you have this big team of flying mages with tons of prep time, they could just go and melt him with a barrage of Orbs of Acid (assuming 5 15th level and only three beating his Carapace reflection [with Energy Immunity or whatever to Acid, of course], that's still 157 damage/round from 4th level spells), and have the highest-level one Wish him dead. Point, set, and match.

Edit: Lokey-- I'm reasonably sure that even in 3.0 (it certainly doesn't work in 3.5) you can't use Harm in a Timestop, since it's an attack roll and you weren't allowed to make attacks during the duration of the spell. But yeah, it's a moot point; walking up adjacent to him while invisible, and then next round using Harm + Quickened Inflict [X] Wounds, does the trick just as well. Just not in 3.5. >_>

Rigeld
2005-08-24, 04:51 PM
Trap the Soul-- Hilariously, Trap the Soul requires you to actually touch the trigger object... nothing happens if you eat it without deliberately grabbing it first [the subject "must pick up or accept" it]. This is even assuming gems worth 48000gp even exist... I'm not aware of any in the books (unless you have the ruby off Asmodeus's scepter or something), and you can't Wish for them.

Mr T does pick it up; Bessy is wearing it. And you could easily Wish for it, just make it a magic gem imbued for the purpose of Trapping the Soul of the Tarasque. Or, it could be an art piece.

jdrich
2005-08-24, 05:03 PM
As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger object,

The subject needs to pick up the object, not just something holding the object.

By that logic, you could keep this thing in your pocket, and if an NPC happens to lift you into the air, bam, it's trapped.

So the tarrasque would have to pick up the amulet itself. I reason some illusion effect would make this possible, but the fact of that matter is that we're talking > 20th level here, so it would be impossible to wish for such an item. the XP cost would be too great in most cases.

amanodel
2005-08-24, 05:31 PM
Hmm. I just tought about that DR, SR, and immunity not works as well on the inside of Mr T. If it works, then the only matter is the number of potions.

But the level 10 bard theory is unbeaten for now :)

JediNite
2005-08-24, 05:44 PM
Well, I'm liking all of these ideas. While some of them clearly don't fit under the heading (see How to Kill a Tarrasque under level 20), they're imaginative, well-thought-out, and funny. Still, there must be some odd series of spells or abilities that would allow a party of, let's say, four level 14 characters defeat Big T. You know that when they designed this monster for the D&D game, they must have put some hidden weakness in it - this thing has been bugging players for years.

As for the Mud to Stone thing, I'm not sure that would even work. If this thing sleeps for centuries, then it should stand to reason that it assumes some sort of suspended animation. Therefore, after trying to get out for a while, Big T might just go to sleep. Part of the mystique of Big T is his ability to come back after taking hits that would make a hardened demon crying for mommy. In the campaign setting I'm writing, the Tarrasque was only subdued after the adventurers that battled it dropped an entire mountain on it, dealing 1*10^16789th power damage to it (and dying in the process). Big T just went sleepy-bye, and 1100 years later, he was back for another plane-sized snack.

Crazy_Eben
2005-08-24, 05:56 PM
The Tarrasque is really quite overrated. It can't fly and can't deal with invisible opponents. Besides, it's really dumb. I'll take a demon or devil over it any day.

For dealing with the Tarrasque, all you need is a big pile of Acid Flasks, make them all small with multiple castings of Shrink Item, put them in a bag, fly over the Tarrasque, throw the bag at it, which ends the Shrink Item spell, and follow up with a Wish to keep it dead.

shadowdemon_lord
2005-08-24, 06:17 PM
Assuming the walls of force are razorblades, they might simply slice him up, and he goes right between them. Due to his regeneration ability, he'd survive that without much sweat. The rogue with lots of scrolls would have to do more then 55 points of damage every round in order to kill him. Anything less and the guy starts regenerating. This guy also has 20 foot reach and blind-fight, he might just hit you. I personaly like the idea of dominating it, the look on any DM's face would be to priceless to pass up the opportunity.

Rigeld
2005-08-24, 06:21 PM
The subject needs to pick up the object, not just something holding the object.

By that logic, you could keep this thing in your pocket, and if an NPC happens to lift you into the air, bam, it's trapped.

So the tarrasque would have to pick up the amulet itself. I reason some illusion effect would make this possible, but the fact of that matter is that we're talking > 20th level here, so it would be impossible to wish for such an item. the XP cost would be too great in most cases.

If you pick up a walnut on the ground, are you not also picking up the meat inside?

Even if you dont buy that argument, why could a wish not create a large (10x10x10) magic gem that is imbued to only work to Trap the Soul of Mr T (after youve done the proper research to find his number of HD and all that)? An Int 3 creature would probably stop and say ooooh.. shiny... and pick it up. Or you could run into a cave, and use the gem as a "door" to the cave. When Mr T grabs it to move it, he's Trapped.

Wayne
2005-08-24, 07:47 PM
Wish doesn't work because it can't create items with a value of more than 25000gp... quite a bit under the 48000 we need to Trap the Soul of a Tarrasque. You might also have to know his "real name" ("Tarrasque" a type of unique creature, not necessarily that creature's given name-- you can't Trap the Soul of Malagoth the Black simply by putting "Tiefling" on a crystal and handing it to him), although that's a debateable point. Regardless, it's not possible to magically create that gem and no provision in the rules [that I know of] exists for finding one... so we're out of luck on that avenue.


Or, it could be an art piece.

No, Trap the Soul explicity requires a gem. The "1000gp/HD" rule isn't flavor text-- it's to make you pay money for your instant-kill, and to cap the power level of creatures you can kill with it (it's obviously a bit cheap to toss a gem into a Great Wyrm's hoard and wait for it to die, eh?).

Walls of Force slicing him up-- By the rules that doesn't happen, and the Tarrasque would simply be unable to cross through the gridwork of Walls. It's not a bad idea, though. (Personally, Walls of Force and Forcecages should simply be able to be broken down [sort of how Legendary Juggernauts (ELH) can], so that they're not a guaranteed "Screw the Noncaster" spell, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion.)

My Rogue idea-- Actually, he bypasses DR thanks to having +4 (or +5, but they're cheaper) Magical Beast Bane arrows (the enhancement bonus goes up to +6 or +7 against the Tarrasque, thereby meeting the requirement to beat Epic DR) and that bonus damage, plus his Sneak Attack, does slightly over the amount needed to beat the Tarrasque's Regeneration. Of course, he'll need to do significantly more than that because on some rounds he will miss (I recommend Greater Manyshot, though that requires BAB +11, I think; or simply taking full-round attacks, although in that case you would have to make sure the Tarrasque can't hit you-- easy once you realize he has 20' reach and SA minimum range is 30'-- and you can Fly-- but still.)

Crazy Eben is right [though not about the Acid Flasks; it takes 248 at 3.5 apiece average to kill the Tarrasque, and that's assuming that all hit, and that your DM doesn't use the reasonable interpretation that dropping them will not cause them to break*, unless you throw them (in which case they have a maximum range of 50' and must be thrown one at a time)]-- the Tarrasque is a joke, largely because he has no recourse to flying enemies. A single dragon, for example, with a non-Fire breath weapon, can simply fly around bombarding him for days until he gets enough lucky rolls to keep the Tarrasque down, and there is absolutely nothing Big T can do about it.

*Dropping an item (PHB 144) does not say the item will break, and the alchemical weapons state they only deal damage when thrown as splash weapons... requiring an attack action for each, obviously. Sure, Shrink Item shenanigans are a logical solution to beating the Tarrasque; but they're not kosher by the rules (and again that's probably a balance thing-- they also nerfed Tele-Shuriken cheese from 3.0).

Belial_the_Leveler
2005-08-24, 07:50 PM
Guys, guys. The "undying" thingy is part of his regeneration, right?

Grimwald's Greymantle (MoF)

Sorry, no regeneration-I just removed it.

Ofcourse, it needs to fail his fort save but that's not impossible.

Or, fighter with sword that deals ability drain-preferably constitution.

Or polymorph it into a bunch of water and water your flowers.

Plane-shifting it to another plane-preferably a plane with no air also works.

Miracling/Wishing it into the sun works too.

Spuddly
2005-08-24, 07:59 PM
Shrinked items would have a smaller chance of breaking, due to the smaller amount of mass. A glass bottle as big as a man breaks much easier than a glass bottle the size of a shot glass.

I like the idea of shrinking acid flasks to do damage. Very clever.

Perhaps shrink heaps, and put them in some sort of flexible mesh bag you could glue to the side of the Tarrasque. Then fireball the bag to break all the vials.

Or better yet, feed the vials to him, after shrinking them. If a Tarrasque is really tearing up the countryside, it might not be too unfeasible to collect lots and lots of Universal Solvent and put those in flasks.

Tehnar
2005-08-24, 08:24 PM
Bit T is a peice of cake. As i played a high level campaign T. is easy to kill because:

- it is stupid (thus it cant plot, make traps, etc..)
- it cant fly/ or have ranged attacks
- it has no offensive magical abilities

Killing it is very simple but you need an arcane caster with a wish spell, hold monster spell and heighten metamagic feat (makes things a bit easier), and a warrior with a lot of strenght and a greataxe (or a rouge), preferably both:

1) Caster memorises 1 wish spell and all otherlvl 7,8,9 slots go to hold monster

2) the party flies over T. while caster tries to cast a sucesfull hold monster spell. A caster lvl 20 should have a DC for a lvl 9 spell at least 30. With T. +20 to will it will fail once. Higher DCs will ensure it stays held for longer

3) as soon it is held the warriors swoop down and start coup d grace. T. needs to fail two will saves in a row for the warrior to finish a coup d grace. If you dont allow coup d grace with weapons that deal subdual a warrior lvl 20 can deal over 50 dmg per attack using power attack (and hitting a helpless creature should be easy). 3 or more warriors should take it down in a couple of rounds

4) as soon as it is at -30 caster casts wish


Now if every CR monster was that easy to defeat

Crazy_Eben
2005-08-24, 09:06 PM
Don't forget to use Limited Wish to give the Tarrasque even less of a chance. If using the Bag o' Shrunken Acid, you can use a Limited Wish to make the attack hit automatically. If you're going for the attack on his will save, you can use the spell to give him a -7 on his next save. To be really mean, use the -7 to make a Mind Fog stick, for a -10 for the subsequent spells :D

Ayana
2005-08-24, 09:29 PM
Level 17 wizard. Take Craft Wondrous Item and Mother Cyst (Libris Mortis).

1. Ask your party to pitch in, rob several dragons' hoards or otherwise aquire 309k gold
2. Prepare a wondrous command-word activated item which produces Necrotic Cyst at CL12 which requires wizard as class to activate (2*12*1800 - 30% = 30,240g = 15,120g and 1210xp to craft)
3. Prepare a wondrous command-word activated item which produces Necrotic Termination CL17 which reqaires wizard as class to activate (9*17*1800 - 30% = 192,780g = 96,390g and 7712xp)
4. Craft a Wings of Flying (54,000g = 27,000g and 2160xp)
5. Aquire a Greater Matamagic Quicken Rod (170,000g)
6. Cast Shapechange
7. Turn into a Medusa
8. Use Petrifying Gaze until the Tarrasque rolls a 1 on its save
9. Use your Necrotic Cyst item on the Tarrasque
10. Repeat steps 8 and 9 as needed till you hit that 1 in 400 chance for it to fail its save when the item bypasses its SR (a higher CL item can speed this up but cost more)
11. Fly out of its attack range
12. Use your Necrotic Termination item over and over until it fails its save.
13. Cast Wish (quickened with your metamagic rod) to make it stay dead

Optional:
Also take Leadership and aquire at least one level 3 cleric among your followers.
14. Have the cleric cast Gentle Repose on the corpse every few days to keep it in good condition.
15. Have your followers build and operate a museum around the corpse, working to make up some of the money you've spent killing the thing

Cruiser1
2005-08-24, 10:00 PM
Eliminate the Terrasque by draining its wisdom to 0, so it falls unconscious. Summon then Rebuke Undead or otherwise control an Allip or several, and have them attack the Terrasque. Terrasque drops from 14 to 0 Wisdom in potentially just four d4 Wisdom hits. Allips conveniently fly and have incorporeal traits, making it easy for them to drop from above or attack from underground to actually hit the Terrasque.

Ayana
2005-08-24, 10:09 PM
Haha, that would actually work! The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage, but not ability drain and being a Su ability it would not be subject to SR! Nice idea!

Wayne
2005-08-24, 10:38 PM
It might not, actually-- the DMG defines "Ability Drain" as merely "permanent ability loss." If you're immune to Ability Damage, you're probably immune to Ability Drain. [Admittedly, it could go either way. The DMG and MM group both under "Ability Score Loss," with Damage being temporary and Drain being permanent, so being immune to ability damage means that you can't be Drained, either (if you take 0 damage, then it doesn't matter whether or not it's "permanent").] Arguably, it wouldn't work in reverse-- if you're only immune to Drain, temporary ability damage might still work. Hard to say. The rules lean in favor of the Tarrasque, but one could make a convincing argument for Ability Damage and Drain being two totally separate abilities (even though I don't see that in the rules).

I like Ayana's idea... it's clever, although absurdly impractical. *chuckles*

Feeding the Tarrasque stuff-- Doesn't work, since the average 33 damage his digestive tract does will destroy items sent in, which typically keeps them from having any effect (regardless of how logical or illogical that might be). I mean, it's easy to kill him; so we should try to keep it to things that are rules-legal. :]

Hold Monster-- Nah, if you can do that and cast Wish, just throw Dominate Monster instead until it works. It's better to have Big T on your side (and thus be chill with you casting buffing spells on him to remove all those weaknesses we're talking about; like Fly) than to just kill him, heh.

Grimwald's Greymantle (FRCS, not MoF)-- Would work, actually, if: you beat his SR, the carapace doesn't reflect it (it's a ray), and he fails his Fort save. That's... well, unlikely. It might explain why there's no Tarrasque in the Realms (unless there is and I don't know about it), though. *chuckles*

Planeshift, though, is definitely a good way of disposing of it until somebody else frees Big T for whatever reason; ditto for the sun idea [that might actually be worse since you probably wouldn't have a line of effect to it to Wish it dead, and the sun-- somehow-- couldn't actually kill it].

MaN
2005-08-24, 10:57 PM
Mirror of Life Trapping
Caster level 17. 200,000gp purchase price.

Tarrasque is trapped in the mirror on a Will save roll of a natural 1 or 2. Range of 30 feet. Hang it from or place it on a vehicle and make ride/fly-by sweeps in front of Tarrasque.

Crazy_Eben
2005-08-24, 11:50 PM
Mirror...that gives me a fun idea. Mirror of Opposition! Tarrasque vs. Tarrasque :D

Just wait until the original is reduced to -40 by the copy, then cast Wish. If the original should win, just use the Mirror again ;)

Rigeld
2005-08-25, 08:03 AM
Wish doesn't work because it can't create items with a value of more than 25000gp... quite a bit under the 48000 we need to Trap the Soul of a Tarrasque. You might also have to know his "real name" ("Tarrasque" a type of unique creature, not necessarily that creature's given name-- you can't Trap the Soul of Malagoth the Black simply by putting "Tiefling" on a crystal and handing it to him), although that's a debateable point. Regardless, it's not possible to magically create that gem and no provision in the rules [that I know of] exists for finding one... so we're out of luck on that avenue.


No, Trap the Soul explicity requires a gem. The "1000gp/HD" rule isn't flavor text-- it's to make you pay money for your instant-kill, and to cap the power level of creatures you can kill with it (it's obviously a bit cheap to toss a gem into a Great Wyrm's hoard and wait for it to die, eh?).

I understand Wish can only create up to a 25k nonmagical item. However, I specifically said a magically imbued gem that (after researching) could only be used to Trap the Soul of Mr T. That could be within the limits of Wish easily.

Yes, TtS requires a gem. Works of art can be gems; it does not define exactly what Art Objects are, simply that they are artsy. All of the examples in the SRD (all I have access to atm) have gems in them, so why not a huge gem? :p Honestly tho, the first choice is better.

Tarrasque is his real name. He is unique. There is only one. I may not realize that is his name when he starts rampaging the countryside, but thats what the research is for.

MaN
2005-08-25, 09:00 AM
Mirror...that gives me a fun idea. Mirror of Opposition! Tarrasque vs. Tarrasque
Even better! Can't believe I didn't think of that one.

OK, here we go, simple and low-level + low-cost (relatively speaking).

Quiver of 20 Arrows of Slaying Magical Beasts.
Archer with fly cast upon him.
Ring of Wishes or Scroll of Wish/Miracle.

Spuddly
2005-08-25, 11:14 AM
Feeding the Tarrasque stuff-- Doesn't work, since the average 33 damage his digestive tract does will destroy items sent in, which typically keeps them from having any effect (regardless of how logical or illogical that might be). I mean, it's easy to kill him; so we should try to keep it to things that are rules-legal. :]

That's horses**t. Acid isn't destroyed by physical damage, only chemical. You could hit a acid all day with a hammer– you could even try to coup d'grace it– and it's not going to take a single point of damage.

Feeding the Tarrasque stuff WILL hurt him. If he eats you, you can cut your way out. Cutting your way out deals damage to the Tarrasque. How then, is it possible to do damage to him, if he just ate you and all your gear? Eh?

Feeding the Tarrasque gallons and gallons of shrunk vials of Universal Solvent would probably bring him way down in HP cheapest, fastest and safest. After the massive damage Tarrasque suffers to his throat and chest, it wouldn't take too much to finish him off, take him to -30, and Wish him away.

Putting the Tarrasque in the sun wouldn't kill him– he's fire immune. Though he'd probably starve or suffocate or get crushed by the gravity.

The Glyphstone
2005-08-25, 01:23 PM
But by the RAW, damage done to his digestive tract (if swallowed) doesn't affect his HP total. ;D

Spuddly
2005-08-25, 02:54 PM
Glyphstone, where does it say that?
All it says is that 50 damage must be done to the digestive tract. It does not say the digestive tract has an independent HP total than the Tarrasque.

AtomicKitKat
2005-08-25, 03:02 PM
That's horses**t. Acid isn't destroyed by physical damage, only chemical. You could hit a acid all day with a hammer– you could even try to coup d'grace it– and it's not going to take a single point of damage.

Small nitpick. The Tarrasque's stomach probably produces(rather than holds, since it would need to keep very little around, otherwise regeneration would not keep up when it's hibernating) some of the strongest acid around(it has to, to be able to eat everything). Of course, D20 doesn't want to make you suffer acid damage(sometimes) when you're swallowed. It does bring up a funny question. How the heck does a troll digest food without stomach acid? :P

bdh5533
2005-08-25, 03:26 PM
I always liked my friend's idea:

1. Shrink ballista bolts to arrow size via the shrink spell
2. Fire as many as you can into the beast
3. Use warp wood to bend and twist the shrunken ballista bolts
4. Say the command word to enlarge the ballista bolts
5. Warp wood again

surely this ought to add up to more than enough to take down Big T. :)

Gamebird
2005-08-25, 04:26 PM
I always thought the Tarrasque's name was "Godzilla" or Gojira or something similar. ;)

And where does it say that Walls of Force can be merged together? It says that explicitly for Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron, but not Wall of Force. I would assume the omission is intentional.

Rigeld
2005-08-25, 04:40 PM
Small nitpick. The Tarrasque's stomach probably produces(rather than holds, since it would need to keep very little around, otherwise regeneration would not keep up when it's hibernating) some of the strongest acid around(it has to, to be able to eat everything). Of course, D20 doesn't want to make you suffer acid damage(sometimes) when you're swallowed. It does bring up a funny question. How the heck does a troll digest food without stomach acid? :P


Sure it can produce some strong acid, but is it strong fast acting acid? I mean, the acid in your stomach is pretty strong, but it takes a while to digest even the things you eat. The "short" amount of time an adventurer is usually in a dragons/worms/whatever's stomach and being exposed to the acid is nothing compared to the crushing he took getting there.

EDIT: In certain cases (IE MR T) yes, it does do damage, but not in all.

Spuddly
2005-08-25, 08:14 PM
Small nitpick. The Tarrasque's stomach probably produces(rather than holds, since it would need to keep very little around, otherwise regeneration would not keep up when it's hibernating) some of the strongest acid around(it has to, to be able to eat everything). Of course, D20 doesn't want to make you suffer acid damage(sometimes) when you're swallowed. It does bring up a funny question. How the heck does a troll digest food without stomach acid?

Agreed. The stomach probably would be immune to acid. The Tarrasque would probably get real bad heart burn.

But all the vials break open in its throat, not its stomach. For any of you who have tangoed with Jose and lost, you know how much even the mild acid from your gut and that of the Jose can burn your throat.

Also, check out the AC on to hit his throat while he's swallowing you. You know, none of that AC is from dex, right? It's all natural armor. And all that damage from his throat.... A whole bunch of digestion takes place in the beast's throat. The kind of digestion that breaks things up into smaller pieces. Like any reptilian creature, the thing seems to chew with its throat.

VariaVespasa
2005-08-25, 08:16 PM
I always thought the Tarrasque's name was "Godzilla" or Gojira or something similar. * ;)

And where does it say that Walls of Force can be merged together? *It says that explicitly for Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron, but not Wall of Force. *I would assume the omission is intentional.

They cant, and, unless I missed something, nobody said they can. But you CAN place them very close together, so that water loss through the gaps is a lot less than the influx, if thats the issue. And its not like Mr T can squeeze out through the 1 milimeter gaps... He cant even squeeze out through the 10-foot gaps...

Forcecages containing dirt- I could be wrong but are not a forcecage's dimensions its actually dimensions- ie if you cant fit it in a 10x10x10 cube you cant fit it in a forcecage? If so, then you cant stuff enough dirt in one to bother a tarrasque. You'd need at least 10 to even hassle him for more than a round really, and around 50 to turn the 50 feet of water into even thin mud.

*Hugs*
Varia

Pop Goes the Weasel
2005-08-25, 09:37 PM
Limited Wish, use it to summon infinite clubs and smother the tarrasque!

Rykounagin
2005-08-25, 09:44 PM
Just get a TON of monks to use their subdual-dealing damage attacks, arming them with belts of giants strength and such. Then just pummel the CRAP out of him, and cast the wish spell accordingly.

The_Werebear
2005-08-25, 11:12 PM
I suggest ninjas. Or better yet, assasins. Get them all in a different plane, then open a gate from that spot over the big guy. Have them stare for 3 rounds, then on round 4, 200 assasins drop out of the gate(or multiple gates). With that many, one who gets hit should have Mr T fail a fort save for him.

Ragbinder
2005-08-26, 01:50 AM
Obtain a sphere of anihilation. Done.

Wih
2005-08-26, 02:12 AM
What's all this about Universal Solvent? It doesn't hurt anyone...
And the whole shooting-people-and-enlarging-bolts thing doesn't work - the only enlarging things that are allowed to break stuff that's constraining them are enlarging creatures - and they need a strength check. If you try to enlarge something that's being bound - or that's in something - it doesn't do anything; it can't expand with flesh in it's way.


A very easy way to kill the tarrasque is to get a large enough vorpal weapon and chop off it's head. You just have to wish it dead before it regenerates.

Spuddly
2005-08-26, 02:19 AM
What's all this about Universal Solvent? It doesn't hurt anyone...

Just checked it in DMG 3.5, and it looks like you're right. In 3.0 you could distill it to 1/3 potency (1/3 an ounce) and it was the strongest acid ever. Could melt through steel, concrete, whatever.

ghostrunner
2005-08-26, 03:00 AM
Putting the Tarrasque in the sun wouldn't kill him– he's fire immune. Though he'd probably starve or suffocate or get crushed by the gravity.

Heat is only one of many byproducts released in the fusion reactions of a star. As you said, it'd probably die one way or another, and then it would be torn to shreds; every molecule of its body would ripped apart by the energy of the sun. And even if that couldn't keep it from regenerating, it's still effectively destroyed. There's no way that it'll escape the gravity of the sun.
However, I think that that solution is too easy, and if I were the DM, whoever is casting Wish had better word his wish absolutely perfectly... *evil grin* ;D
I think the main problem with that solution is that characters in a fantasy setting probably don't understand the nature of the universe and their solar system well enough to even know that the sun idea is a possiblity. A strict no-metagaming DM probably wouldn't allow it. And the whole solution is based on the premise that the PCs' universe more or less physically works like our own. If it doesn't, they're screwed. ;)
Of course, if the DM really wants to mess with everyone, he or she can just fall back on the fact that it is a magical beast. Magic seems to be a popular catch-all for solving these sorts of problems. After a nice vacation on the Sun, the Tarrasque heads back towards earth. Even though it dies in space on the way, it makes a nice Tarrasque-Meteor, killing hundreds or even thousands as it impacts the earth. Then it regenerates and starts the fun all over again! Magic fixes everything! ;D

Cttpyiaz
2005-08-26, 06:32 AM
I believe it takes 1500 degrees to vaporize human flesh, or something. Of course the scales or what have you and carraprice(Er...not sure if thats what its called) would be stronger, but by no means strong enough to resist more extreme temperatures(being said on a universal scale).
Unless magicaly enchanted by some securing force, anything within fairly close proximity to the sun, let alone inside of it, will be vaporized- the kinetic energy so intense that it easily tears molecule from molecule.

Of course, Im anything but an expert on the world of DnD. Just a physics freak.

Premier
2005-08-26, 07:24 AM
Of course, for any REAL D&D player, such cheap tricks would be cheating. And for any REAL D&D Dungeon Masters, such cheap tricks would easily warrant some good old edition-style Wish twisting.

After all, the PC didn't specify whether he wants Tarrasque to be moved to where the Sun presently is, or the Sun to be moved to where the Tarrasque presently is, did he?

amanodel
2005-08-26, 07:56 AM
Yes, Premier's idea came in my mind also, just I was too tazy to write it down.

It would be nice to destroy Mr T. by destroying the whole Earth with a screwed wish ;D

Or even better: get your totally massdestructor evil characters to pilllage everything in the scale to win a solar angels anger. When the solar arrives, just run behind the Tarrasque :) It has infinite slay tarrasque arrows, and also can cast wish.

Reptile
2005-08-28, 03:28 AM
A spell submitted for your consideration:

Binding (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm)
(Probably either of the first two versions of the spell is sufficient)

SR:
The good thing about Binding is that you can have assistants boost your caster level. A 20th-level caster with six measly 4th-level bards around has an effective caster level of 26, giving you a 75% chance of beating SR. Change just one of those bards into an 18th-level arcane caster (who knows Dominate Monster), and you beat the SR automatically (even without the Spell Penetration feats).

Saving throw:
Binding allows a Will save--which, as has been pointed out, the Tarrasque actually has a reasonable chance of failing. It's not a sure thing, but it's not too bad: even a conservative estimate of a high-level caster's ability modifier would be 16 (starting) +4 (ability increases) +4 (Fox's Cunning/Eagle's Splendor) =24, already a +7 bonus. (This is assuming one doesn't get a permanent boost from a Tome or the like, or get a +6 wondrous item...) This yields a DC of 25, 26 if you Heighten the spell...higher if you have Spell Focus (Enchantment).... One could always Levitate or Fly above the Tarrasque, casting it the 4-5 times necessary until it succeeds.

Effect:
Well, you've got a Tarrasque that is either restrained in place, or comatose (depending on the version of the spell you cast)...for 20+ years. The latter can likely be CdG'ed immediately. The former (if you don't want to give up that 1 on the save DC) can be dealt with in whatever time-consuming, creative fashion you like. Possibilities include drowning it within a Fishtank of Force, finding--or crafting--a vorpal sword and giving it to someone with Ride-By Attack (no AoO...), or just hanging back and casting Finger of Death once per day or so...it'll succeed someday, probably even the first year. Just make sure you're not too surprised when it does that you forget to cast the Wish afterward. ;)

Not exactly St. Martha's method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque), but effective enough, I think...

Thornwood413
2005-08-28, 03:43 PM
Dammit, after reading 7 pages of this post in order to make sure no one else has brought up the whole Tarrasques being killed by saint Martha thing, the last post brings it up. Oh well.

Honestly I don't like the idea of having characters fighting the Tarrasque, its really just too hard to fit into a non-metagaming plot.

However I was in a group once that did face it, but that game took place a little farther down the technology timeline then most DnD games, hence we stole a bunch of cannons to distract it while my rogue (with a cloak of the bat) landed on its back and used a bullet that we enchanted with a wish spell to kill it, then we just kept pounding on it so it didnt regenerate until the wish was cast. (If anyone cares while I had 2 revolvers there were probably only about 10 or so in existence, given to high army officals....which i stole from)

Edtharan
2005-08-29, 06:25 AM
Mirror of opposition seems to be the best one so far, and it was the one I came up with when I first saw the thread title.

How about a competition for Big T killing.
This is a suggetion for some rules. If enough want to do this then we can work out some final rules.
Rules:
1) Assume a party of four characters (average number for party size). All of the same level.
2) Magic items used are governed by the Character wealth by level table (3.0 DMG P145 - not sure if 3.5 is the same)
2) Only Character classes, races, abilities, spells, etc found in either the DMG or PHB. Must state the Eddition (3.0 or 3.5), Book (PHB/DMG), Page number of the rule used.
3) Rule interpereteation: Tricky, either vote or we assign someone (or someones) to be the DM
4) Lowest party level wins. In cases of ties then the most creative (or maybe plauseable or less risky) wins.
5) The kill must not rely on chance (iff Big T fails his saving throw the first time). But can rely on statistics (eg greater than 75% chance it will fail within the time or period)
7) The characters have only 3 days to kill it (as it is active for 1D3 days - 3.0 MM P174) and includes preperation time.
6) The wish to finally kill it is assumed (or should we make this as part of the criteria that they must also have this?)
7) Prize: Bragging rights (and XP ;D)

Rigeld
2005-08-29, 09:31 AM
Mirror of opposition seems to be the best one so far, and it was the one I came up with when I first saw the thread title.

How about a competition for Big T killing.
This is a suggetion for some rules. If enough want to do this then we can work out some final rules.
Rules:
1) Assume a party of four characters (average number for party size). All of the same level.
2) Magic items used are governed by the Character wealth by level table (3.0 DMG P145 - not sure if 3.5 is the same)
2) Only Character classes, races, abilities, spells, etc found in either the DMG or PHB. Must state the Eddition (3.0 or 3.5), Book (PHB/DMG), Page number of the rule used.
3) Rule interpereteation: Tricky, either vote or we assign someone (or someones) to be the DM
4) Lowest party level wins. In cases of ties then the most creative (or maybe plauseable or less risky) wins.
5) The kill must not rely on chance (iff Big T fails his saving throw the first time). But can rely on statistics (eg greater than 75% chance it will fail within the time or period)
7) The characters have only 3 days to kill it (as it is active for 1D3 days - 3.0 MM P174) and includes preperation time.
6) The wish to finally kill it is assumed (or should we make this as part of the criteria that they must also have this?)
7) Prize: Bragging rights (and XP ;D)

1) Party of 3 13th level commoners, and 1 bard. 1 Blacksmith, 1 cow herder, 1 politician, and the bard.

2) The only magic item that matters is the Ring of 3 wishes that the politician has. It is an hierloom, passed down in his family for generations. It still has all three wishes.

Day 1 - the bard hears of Mr T rampaging near town and convinces the politician to do something about it. He has bardic lored the ring in the past and figured out a plan. Using his bardic lore, he researches Mr T's name and Gem size while the blacksmith makes a big shiny harness fit for a cow.

Day 2 - The cow herder gets his prize cow (/sniff) and fits her into the harness. The politician wishes for a gem large enough to trap Mr T's soul in it. They strap the gem to the harness, and lead Bessy the Brave out to Mr T's path. The Politicians uses the second wish to cast Trap the Soul with the trigger option. All 4 run and hide. Bessy the Brave does her best to look brave, with her shiny harness and big glittering gem. Mr T rampages about and comes up on the fat cow all aglitter, picks her up and -

dissapears.

The politician then wishes that the gem is irrecovably and completely destroyed.

Day 3 - Party.

Sacrath
2005-08-29, 10:17 AM
We disscussed this, there is no gem in existance (and it is too expensive to wish for) that can hold Big T's soul and besides that, picking up the cow is not indicative of picking up the gem. I am not going to go through the arguments, just read the other posts on this topic.

Edtharan
2005-08-29, 10:24 AM
Interesting attempt Rigeld.
but unfortunately:

"The politician wishes for a gem large enough to trap Mr T's soul in it."

3.0 PHB p267 (Trap the soul): Material component: Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem worth at least 1,000gp value for every Hit Di possesed by the creature to be trapped.

The big T is 48 hit dice (3.0 MM p 174 Tarrasque) so would need a 48,000gp gem.

3.0 PHB p273 (Wish): Create a valuable item, even a magic item, of up to 15,000gp in value.

So unfortunatly this would not work...
Good try though ;)
Keep them comeing...

Rigeld
2005-08-29, 10:53 AM
Interesting attempt Rigeld.
but unfortunately:

"The politician wishes for a gem large enough to trap Mr T's soul in it."

3.0 PHB p267 (Trap the soul): Material component: Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem worth at least 1,000gp value for every Hit Di possesed by the creature to be trapped.

The big T is 48 hit dice (3.0 MM p 174 Tarrasque) so would need a 48,000gp gem.

3.0 PHB p273 (Wish): Create a valuable item, even a magic item, of up to 15,000gp in value.

So unfortunatly this would not work...
Good try though ;)
Keep them comeing...

The 3.5 Wish has no limit on magic items, so it would be a magically imbued gem that can only work with Trap the Soul to trap Mr T's soul. Hence the reason for the bard to research his name first and such first.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm



From the SRD for Wish:

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.


No GP limit.

Rigeld
2005-08-29, 10:56 AM
We disscussed this, there is no gem in existance (and it is too expensive to wish for) that can hold Big T's soul and besides that, picking up the cow is not indicative of picking up the gem. I am not going to go through the arguments, just read the other posts on this topic.

If you tie a rope around a rock and then pick up the rock, did you pick up the rope as well?

You did? Oops.. there goes your soul.

The Glyphstone
2005-08-29, 11:30 AM
From the same Wish you just quoted:


Create a Nonmagical item of up to 25,000GP.


Now, the debate begins on whether a gem is magical or not. I say no, because gems are a completely separate part of treasure than magic items, their only value is as 1-for-1 gold exchange, or as material components for spells.

Sacrath
2005-08-29, 11:37 AM
From the SRD for Wish:

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

Yes RAW you can make the Sword of Kas with a wish spell. But be serious here.

Also going RAW, you can't use a magic gem for trap the soul, as it does not call for one. As previously mentioned gems and magic items are two different category. For example, Mortikiens (sp) Transformation calls for a magic item (a potion of bulls strength).

Rigeld
2005-08-29, 11:45 AM
From the same Wish you just quoted:

Now, the debate begins on whether a gem is magical or not. I say no, because gems are a completely separate part of treasure than magic items, their only value is as 1-for-1 gold exchange, or as material components for spells.

Not is magical, but can be magical. This is one of the DM adujaction things. Spending a wish on creating a magical object that 1) can only be used with a certain spell 2) can only be used for a certain creature with that certain spell and 3) can only ever be used one time doesnt seem too out of the realm of power for wish to me.

Rigeld
2005-08-29, 11:59 AM
Yes RAW you can make the Sword of Kas with a wish spell. But be serious here.

Also going RAW, you can't use a magic gem for trap the soul, as it does not call for one. As previously mentioned gems and magic items are two different category. For example, Mortikiens (sp) Transformation calls for a magic item (a potion of bulls strength).

If I Wished for an inanimate Iron Golem so that I could animate it myself, according to you thats not possible. It obviously doesnt fit under the 25,000 gp guideline, but it is the material component for a spell.

As for why I would want to animate it myself, I would want to make sure it saw me as its master, not whoever's tomb the Wish took it from.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#ironGolem

Sacrath
2005-08-29, 12:14 PM
If the iron golem body is worth more than 25,000 gp then yes, you can not Wish for it. So IMO you should not be able to Wish for an enchantment or a magic item worth more than that as well. That seems to be the spirit of the spell: 100 gp per exp.

Rigeld
2005-08-29, 12:36 PM
If the iron golem body is worth more than 25,000 gp then yes, you can not Wish for it. So IMO you should not be able to Wish for an enchantment or a magic item worth more than that as well. That seems to be the spirit of the spell: 100 gp per exp.

Except it specifically does NOT limit the magic item cost in the wish spell. You could (in theory) wish for an epic item, but it would charge you quite a bit of XP for doing so. And be a bad idea in and of itself, since the DM would probably twist the spell.

Elurindel
2005-08-29, 01:02 PM
1) No (see below)
2) Not if you put a wall of force below it too
3) No (see below)


The Tarrasque has no exceptions to it's type in it's notes.


Magical Beasts need to breathe, eat and sleep.
Thus, the Tarrasque breathes, and can drown.

Unless the Tarrasque can cast Disjunction, then he can't break the walls of force.

Thus; surround the tarrasque in walls of force, and then drown him in them.
No saves. Just time.


Couldn't a tarrasque simply drink all the water? And how would you fill this cube comprised of walls of force with water? The other issue involves casting wall of force six times, and actually getting the tarrasque in there in the first place.

The_Werebear
2005-08-29, 03:37 PM
The cow idea could still work, but It would need a bit of work. Replace the commoner with a wizard capable of casting minor image. The politician wishes for the most valuable gem in the world to be teleported to him without the owner of that gem ever knowing it left it's possesion. That way, he isn't creating the gem, he is simply wishing for it to come to him.. The trap the soul stuff goes on with the gem, with Big T identified, and the wizard cast's minor illusion on the gem to make it look like a cow. It would be placed with the rest of the herd, so it would smell like the other cows. Big T picks up the cow illusion along with the rest of the herd, and *poof*. One wish later and party is solved.

Rigeld
2005-08-29, 05:50 PM
The cow idea could still work, but It would need a bit of work. Replace the commoner with a wizard capable of casting minor image. The politician wishes for the most valuable gem in the world to be teleported to him without the owner of that gem ever knowing it left it's possesion. That way, he isn't creating the gem, he is simply wishing for it to come to him.. The trap the soul stuff goes on with the gem, with Big T identified, and the wizard cast's minor illusion on the gem to make it look like a cow. It would be placed with the rest of the herd, so it would smell like the other cows. Big T picks up the cow illusion along with the rest of the herd, and *poof*. One wish later and party is solved.


Heh.. the bard could Minor Image if you really feel that is required.

And yeah, Im sure that somewhere in the world, there is a gem the size of my torso, and that gem would be worth about 50k gp. It may not have been unearthed yet, but I dont have to know about it, it simply has to exist. (thats if you think me creating a magical version is out of the realm of a wish /boggle)

Edmund
2005-08-29, 06:21 PM
There are some very large gems out there, but they're large because they're common, and being common makes them cheap.

A huge lump of amethyst about the size of, say, a 24-pack, is worth significantly less than a diamond the size of a rolled up stick of gum.

Spuddly
2005-08-29, 06:44 PM
But a Blue Diamond the size of a volkswagon would be way valuable.

Or what about gems from other planes? Thos could be enormously valuable since getting them between planes would be difficult.

Phasm
2005-08-29, 08:19 PM
Yeah, you could probably get a diamond the size of a pony from the Great Dismal Delve on the Elemental Plane of Earth. Getting it away from the dao (evil earth genies) would be a real trick though...

Rigeld
2005-08-29, 08:26 PM
Yeah, you could probably get a diamond the size of a pony from the Great Dismal Delve on the Elemental Plane of Earth. Getting it away from the dao (evil earth genies) would be a real trick though...

Which is what the wish is for... I didnt think about gating it in from another plane. Thanks for the idea!

Edtharan
2005-08-29, 10:38 PM
I'll accept the wishing for the right gem to be teleported/gated/etc to you is acceptable.
However I just read up on trap the soul and if the gem is destroyed then the creature inside is released and the physical body reforms. 3.0 PHB p266 (Trap the soul) "The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform."

You could use this to keep Big T from rampageing but it would not kill it (and you better hope that the gem is never broken). If you want you can buy yourself more time to organise a kill with this (or similar technique) but unfortunately it does not fullfill the kill requierment.

Spuddly
2005-08-29, 10:47 PM
It would, however, allow you to set up as elaborate trap as you would need to kill it.

Say, making a box out of walls of force and filling it with water....

Edmund
2005-08-29, 11:10 PM
Fishtank idea has a big problem, though, in that even if the walls were put one millimeter apart, you still have basically a number of big 'unravelled' holes, like when you unwind adhesive tape. For a basic idea, take a steel or tin trashcan and cut it up with a pair of large shears into 15 or so pieces in a horizontal and vertical grid.

Reassemble these pieces as best as you can with soldering or tac welding, with only one weld/solder spot per side of the pieces.

Now, get yourself a bucket and a garden hose, preferably a third large source of water from which to remove the water for the bucket.

Now, let's experiment, shall we? Let's see how long it takes you to get to get that trashcan to full water capacity using only your bucket and hose. Can you keep that up for 20 minutes?

Also, what's to say the guy won't be thrashing around and tossing water over the sides, eh?

Spuddly
2005-08-29, 11:23 PM
Fishtank idea has a big problem, though, in that even if the walls were put one millimeter apart, you still have basically a number of big 'unravelled' holes, like when you unwind adhesive tape. For a basic idea, take a steel or tin trashcan and cut it up with a pair of large shears into 15 or so pieces in a horizontal and vertical grid.

Reassemble these pieces as best as you can with soldering or tac welding, with only one weld/solder spot per side of the pieces.

Now, get yourself a bucket and a garden hose, preferably a third large source of water from which to remove the water for the bucket.

Now, let's experiment, shall we? Let's see how long it takes you to get to get that trashcan to full water capacity using only your bucket and hose. Can you keep that up for 20 minutes?

Also, what's to say the guy won't be thrashing around and tossing water over the sides, eh?

You've got minor problems, not big ones. First, the rate of leakage could easily be less than the rate at which the tank fills. Second, you've got more than enough time to patch it up. Third, you're using magic. You could put them as close as you like. It's not tape.

And who's to say the Tarrasque wouldn't swim or burrow out?

You'd have to find a way to cap the tank on both bottom and top.

The_Werebear
2005-08-29, 11:38 PM
Ok, I have one. Take a level 19 expert with maxed ranks in architecture, the leadership feat, a unused ring of three wishes, and 18 charisma. His cohort is a bard of 16th level.

Day one- He hears about the tarrasque and uses wish one to wish for a giant, stone lined pit in an empty field nearby, with dimensions of 100foot radius, and 600,000feet deep. Then, he has his followers start to build a bridge across the chasm, using his enginnering skill to tell them how.

Day Two-finish bridge

Day Three- Bard lures tarrasque onto bridge, then casts sympathetic vibration on it, destroying the bridge and droping it into the pit. The tarrasque takes the falling damage(1d6 nonlethal, then 59,997d6 of lethal, and then the engineer wishes that the Big T stays dead.

Spuddly
2005-08-29, 11:46 PM
Falling damage caps. An uninjured level 10 barbarian is almost guaranteed to survive any fall from within the atmosphere to the ground.

Edtharan
2005-08-29, 11:48 PM
The tarrasque takes the falling damage(1d6 nonlethal, then 59,997d6 of lethal, and then the engineer wishes that the Big T stays dead.

3.0 DMG p112 (Falling damage): The basic rule is simple: 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6."

Even if you allwed for the larger mass of the creature, say step up the dice to d20s (as a house rule and not part of this chalenge) then it still is not enough to kill Big T.

Phasm
2005-08-29, 11:52 PM
There's a cap on falling damage? *And here I thought I'd heard all the stupid RAWs. *I don't care how tough, nimble, smart or skilled you are, if you fall off the side of a six-thousand-foot cliff you're chunky salsa unless you've got some sort of magic to prevent or slow the fall.

If I ever DM, that cap is so coming off.

Spuddly
2005-08-30, 12:01 AM
There's a cap on falling damage? And here I thought I'd heard all the stupid RAWs. I don't care how tough, nimble, smart or skilled you are, if you fall off the side of a six-thousand-foot cliff you're chunky salsa unless you've got some sort of magic to prevent or slow the fall.

If I ever DM, that cap is so coming off.

There's a thread around here on that. It basically comes down to a) wind resistance

and

b) a barbarian is far more cooler when he jumps off an airship grappling an enemy, falls a thousand feet, killing the enemy, then jumps to his feet and punches someone in the teeth cause he's that badass.

Edtharan
2005-08-30, 12:06 AM
Maybe theere is a God of falling that save creatures that fall. ie "Oh, God i'mm going to DIE!!! Save me!!!" Belief is what Gods thrive on... ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D ;D

ghostrunner
2005-08-30, 12:51 AM
There's a cap on falling damage?
I guess it represents terminal velocity. If you or a tarrasque falls from a high-enough distance, you'll eventually reach terminal velocity, where the wind resistance equals the pull of gravity and you stop accellerating. It doesn't matter whether you fall 5,000 ft. or 10,000 ft.; you'll hit the ground at the same speed.
That being said, I think it shows one of the inherent flaws of the hitpoint system. If I were the DM, I'd rule that a 120-mile drop, while superfluous, would be enough to initially kill the tarrasque.
If we're trying to follow Edtharan's rules, it comes down to this one: " 3) Rule interpereteation: Tricky, either vote or we assign someone (or someones) to be the DM ."
I'd vote that it counts, even though it doesn't follow the RAW.


a barbarian is far more cooler when he jumps off an airship grappling an enemy, falls a thousand feet, killing the enemy, then jumps to his feet and punches someone in the teeth cause he's that badass.

This made me laugh. ;D

Jotoco
2005-08-30, 01:04 AM
People, think of somethink a Tarrasque can't reach?
That's it!

A PALADIN!!!!!!

HOW?!?!?!!!!!
Well... get a longspear or something, and every cavalry feat. Alongside with a magical mount that can go REALLY FAR in one round...
You can just be far away enough to ride-by it and strike for 3X damage with magical lance/spear. AND be too far away for him to reach the next round.

I'm not in the mood to calculate wich level said paladin need to be, but I think around 12 or 14 should do. Someone do the maths, please.
Thanks.

VariaVespasa
2005-08-30, 01:56 AM
Fishtank idea has a big problem, though, in that even if the walls were put one millimeter apart, you still have basically a number of big 'unravelled' holes, like when you unwind adhesive tape. For a basic idea, take a steel or tin trashcan and cut it up with a pair of large shears into 15 or so pieces in a horizontal and vertical grid.

Reassemble these pieces as best as you can with soldering or tac welding, with only one weld/solder spot per side of the pieces.

Now, get yourself a bucket and a garden hose, preferably a third large source of water from which to remove the water for the bucket.

Now, let's experiment, shall we? Let's see how long it takes you to get to get that trashcan to full water capacity using only your bucket and hose. Can you keep that up for 20 minutes?

Also, what's to say the guy won't be thrashing around and tossing water over the sides, eh?

No problem- I did specifiy using control water to flood the thing. When youre using a single spell to add 8-20 feet of water per casting, losing a foot or two of water a minute out of the seams or over the top isnt exactly a big deal.

*Hugs*
Varia

Reptile
2005-08-30, 02:32 AM
I know you said a party of 4, but here's a strategy that only needs one (and only 17th level, too). Disclaimer: The following is cheap. The following is absurd. But it's simple, and as far as I can tell, it will work.

Our hero: A level 17 wizard with Int 24 (not too difficult to obtain--the four stat increases and a Headband of Intellect will do it), and the following feats:
Extend Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Eschew Materials (it just makes things easier...)
Possessions: none (aside from the Headband, if needed).
For the record, our wizard has 4/6/6/6/5/5/5/4/2/1 spells of each level.

Two words: (Melf's) Acid Arrow (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm).
No spell resistance allowed. No saving throw allowed. And DR doesn't apply to elemental/spell damage. At 17th level, the damage lasts for 6 rounds...or 12 if you use Extend Spell.

Prepare the following at each level:
2nd: 6xAcid Arrow. Total damage per spell over 6 rounds = 12d4.
3rd: 1xFly, 5xAcid Arrow (Extended)--total damage/spell = 24d4
4th: 5xAcid Arrow (Extended), damage = 24d4
5th: 5xAcid Arrow (Extended, Empowered), damage = (24d4)*1.5
6th: 5xAcid Arrow (Extended, Maximized), damage = 8*12=96
7th: 4xAcid Arrow (Extended, Quickened), damage = 24d4
8th: 2xAcid Arrow (Extended, Maximized, Empowered), damage = 96 + 0.5*(12d4)
9th: Wish.

You see where I'm going with this.

Pre-combat: cast Fly. Fly above the Tarrasque for the entire combat.
1st-8th rounds: cast Extended AA once each round.
9th-10th: Quickened, Extended AA and Extended, Maximized, Empowered AA.
11th-12th: Quickened, Extended AA and Extended, Maximized AA.
13th-15th: Extended, Maximized AA.
16th-20th: Extended, Empowered AA.
21st-22nd: Extended AA.
23rd-28th: AA.
30th: Wish.

Calculating total damage (warning! math ahead!):
Ignore the first eight rounds when counting damage (the eighth round is 16d4, or an average of 40, so it will likely be regenerated that same round). Thus, here you ignore (8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1)*2d4 = 72d4 damage. Similarly, ignore any damage that occurs past the 30th round (by then, hopefully, you'll have Wished the Tarrasque dead). The spells you cast in the 20th-22nd and 26th-28th rounds are still going on, and would deal (1.5+2+3+1+2+3)*2d4 = 25d4 damage after that point (note that the first is Empowered, hence the 1.5).

So from the 9th through the 30th rounds, you deal:
6*12d4 + 10*24d4 + 5*36d4 + 5*96 + 4*24d4 + 2*(96+6d4) - 72d4 - 25d4
= 503d4+672 damage. Average damage is 1929.5.
The Tarrasque is regenerating, of course, and 21 rounds of regeneration heals 840hp, leaving an average of 1089 net damage. This is enough over the 868 required to satisfy the final part of the analysis: the fact that, despite the Tarrasque being the size of a good-sized barn, our hero will miss with 5% of his Acid Arrows. (Even missing with a couple of the more-heavily-metamagicked ones, you can still get 868.)

This would be even easier with an 18th level caster (then each Arrow sticks around longer)...or with items (Rods of Metamagic), etc. But with just the above, a single 17th-level character can relatively safely kill the Tarrasque in three minutes.

I won't figure this out, since I spent entirely too long working on the above, but here's a question for someone with entirely too much time on their hands: If you don't have to worry about the Wish (just the damage), how high-level would a party of four wizards have to be in order to use the same technique? ;)

Jotoco: Keep in mind the Rush ability--you'd have to have a very fast-moving mount (and/or a flying mount), otherwise the Tarrasque could just chase after, catch up, bite, Improved Grab, Swallow Whole...yeah. And to get past DR and regeneration you'd have to deal over 55 damage per round, which even at x3 is something to think about.
Hmm...flying mount, Ride-by Attack, and a vorpal weapon, maybe--of course, a vorpal weapon is *almost* epic anyway...

VariaVespasa
2005-08-30, 02:36 AM
You've got minor problems, not big ones. First, the rate of leakage could easily be less than the rate at which the tank fills. Second, you've got more than enough time to patch it up. Third, you're using magic. You could put them as close as you like. It's not tape.

And who's to say the Tarrasque wouldn't swim or burrow out?

You'd have to find a way to cap the tank on both bottom and top.

Thats why I specified a pit capped with walls of force, either a horizontal variant, or just using the bottoms as bars. It cant go up through the walls of force. It can dig down if it likes, but that just means its even further underwater, which doesnt actually help it avoid drowning... :P And it cant dig sideways and up fast enough. Remember, it doesnt HAVE a burrowing speed, so its gotta dig by pure destruction alone, and while it can do it, its just not fast enough. It takes 15 damage to dig through a 5x5 foot chunk of stone 1 inch deep if I recall, or 180 damage to dig to 1 foot, or 1800 damage to dig a 5x5 hole 10 feet deep. Thats about 6 to 9 rounds of work, depending on whether or not you think it can use its jaws and tail for digging or not, but lets say it can and its only 6 rounds. (I dont think it can, but...). Its body is a minimum of what, 15 feet tall and 15 feet wide if it lays down flat? So it needs to dig 9 of those 5x5x10 holes to dig a hole 10 feet deep thats big enough for its body, which is gonna take it a mere 54 rounds, 10 or so more than it has. And thats just to dig a mere 10 feet, when it needs to go at least 60, even in a minimalist pit. Its SoL.

Lest people think thats somehow unrealistic, or "just not giving enough credit to the mighty tarrasque!", here are some real numbers for you- The purpose-built digging machines used for digging the Channel Tunnel between England and France, which broke records for their digging speed, at their fastest were only able to dig 426 meters in a WEEK (about 1300 feet), or under 200 feet per DAY, less than 10 feet an hour, and that was through chalk, which isnt exactly the hardest stone in the world. By contrast, the tarrasque can do about 60 feet an hour, and through harder stone into the bargain. Thats impressive, as befits the tarrasque. But impressive as it is, its just not enough. Once its in the pit with the bars on top it IS toast.

Someone said "The tarrasque can drink all the water"? No, no it cant. Quite apart from the fact that it would have to stretch to over 10 times its original volume in the process to manage that, control water is only a lvl 4 spell. It drinks its volume in water, lowering the water level 10 feet. Abra-cadabra, presto chango, another control water spell and look, another 8 to 20 feet of water, or more, depending on the level of the caster (20 feet is "only" a lvl 10 caster). Not a winning proposition for ol' lizard-lips.

*Hugs*
Varia

Edtharan
2005-08-30, 03:06 AM
Interesting scenario LargeMythicalReptile.

Here is my scenario (I'm not going to could this in the chalenge). It requiers 1 character at level 13:
Character (any class), Level 13 (3.0 DMG p145 (character wealth by level) gives 110,00gp). With a ring of three wishes. Price 97,950gp

Wish 1: A pit that the Tarrasque could not get out of, that is filled with acid.
Wish 2: The Tarrasque is to be teleported into that pit now.
Wish 3: The Tarrasque will be permanently destroyed (made after the Tarrasque is dead).

46,800 xp for 1 character at level 13 priceless...

Elurindel
2005-08-30, 04:16 AM
Thats why I specified a pit capped with walls of force, either a horizontal variant, or just using the bottoms as bars. *It cant go up through the walls of force. *It can dig down if it likes, but that just *means its even further underwater, which doesnt actually help it avoid drowning... :P * And it cant dig sideways and up fast enough. *Remember, it doesnt HAVE a burrowing speed, so its gotta dig by pure destruction alone, and while it can do it, its just not fast enough. *It takes 15 damage to dig through a 5x5 foot chunk of stone 1 inch deep if I recall, or *180 damage to dig to 1 foot, or 1800 damage to dig a 5x5 hole 10 feet deep. *Thats about 6 to 9 *rounds of work, depending on whether or not you think it can use its jaws and tail for digging or not, but lets say it can and its only 6 rounds. (I dont think it can, but...). *Its body is a minimum of what, 15 feet tall and 15 feet wide if it lays down flat? So it needs to dig 9 of those 5x5x10 holes to dig a hole 10 feet deep thats big enough for its body, which is gonna take it a mere 54 rounds, 10 or so more than it has. * And thats just to dig a mere 10 feet, when it needs to go at least 60, even in a minimalist pit. *Its SoL.

Lest people think thats somehow unrealistic, or "just not giving enough credit to the mighty tarrasque!", here are some real numbers for you- *The purpose-built digging machines used for digging the Channel Tunnel between England and France, which broke records for their digging speed, at their fastest were only able to dig 426 meters in a WEEK (about 1300 feet), or under 200 feet per DAY, less than 10 feet an hour, and that was through chalk, which isnt exactly the hardest stone in the world. *By contrast, the tarrasque can do about 60 feet an hour, and through harder stone into the bargain. *Thats impressive, as befits the tarrasque. *But impressive as it is, its just not enough. *Once its in the pit with the bars on top it IS toast.

Someone said "The tarrasque can drink all the water"? No, no it cant. *Quite apart from the fact that it would have to stretch to over 10 times its original volume in the process to manage that, control water is only a lvl 4 spell. *It drinks its volume in water, lowering the water level 10 feet. *Abra-cadabra, presto chango, another control water spell and look, another 8 to 20 feet of water, or more, depending on the level of the caster (20 feet is "only" a lvl 10 caster). *Not a winning proposition for ol' lizard-lips.

*Hugs*
Varia


You forgot to mention how long it would take to drown the tarrasque, and exactly how you'd get the tarrasque into the wall of force prison in the first place. And where would you stand when that thing has a natural reach of 20ft?
And don't forget its frightful presence. Are you confident enough to pass a DC 36 will save if you're under level 20? Probably not.
As for drinking the water, it could still manage to consume a fair amount, considering how quickly it can metabolise things that it swallows whole.

One possible tactic is repeatedly casting Morality Undone on the tarrasque until it becomes evil, and then using a talisman of ultimate good to destroy it instantly.

Or you could get a bow, a load of slaying arrows, and cast shadaow steed, walk around on air above it, or simply stay out of its reach (it only has a land speed of 20 feet) and pepper it with arrows till it fails its saving throw. Then Wish.

Elurindel
2005-08-30, 04:20 AM
Ok, I have one. *Take a level 19 expert with maxed ranks in architecture, the leadership feat, a unused ring of three wishes, and 18 charisma. * His cohort is a bard of 16th level. *

Day one- He hears about the tarrasque and uses wish one to wish for a giant, stone lined pit in an empty field nearby, with dimensions of 100foot radius, and 600,000feet deep. *Then, he has his followers start to build a bridge across the chasm, using his enginnering skill to tell them how.

Day Two-finish bridge

Day Three- *Bard lures tarrasque onto bridge, then casts sympathetic vibration on it, destroying the bridge and droping it into the pit. *The tarrasque takes the falling damage(1d6 nonlethal, then 59,997d6 of lethal, and then the engineer wishes that the Big T stays dead.



Not to pick nits or anything, but nothing deals lethal damage to the tarrasque.

AtomicKitKat
2005-08-30, 04:27 AM
You see where I'm going with this.

Pre-combat: *cast Fly. *Fly above the Tarrasque for the entire combat.
1st-8th rounds: *cast Extended AA once each round.
9th-10th: *Quickened, Extended AA and Extended, Maximized, Empowered AA.
11th-12th: *Quickened, Extended AA and Extended, Maximized AA.
13th-15th: *Extended, Maximized AA.
16th-20th: *Extended, Empowered AA.
21st-22nd: *Extended AA.
23rd-28th: *AA.
30th: *Wish.

Calculating total damage (warning! *math ahead!):
Ignore the first eight rounds when counting damage (the eighth round is 16d4, or an average of 40, so it will likely be regenerated that same round). *Thus, here you ignore (8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1)*2d4 = 72d4 damage. *Similarly, ignore any damage that occurs past the 30th round (by then, hopefully, you'll have Wished the Tarrasque dead). The spells you cast in the 20th-22nd and 26th-28th rounds are still going on, and would deal (1.5+2+3+1+2+3)*2d4 = 25d4 damage after that point (note that the first is Empowered, hence the 1.5).

So from the 9th through the 30th rounds, you deal:
6*12d4 + 10*24d4 + 5*36d4 + 5*96 + 4*24d4 + 2*(96+6d4) - 72d4 - 25d4
= 503d4+672 damage. *Average damage is 1929.5.
The Tarrasque is regenerating, of course, and 21 rounds of regeneration heals 840hp, leaving an average of 1089 net damage. *This is enough over the 868 required to satisfy the final part of the analysis: *the fact that, despite the Tarrasque being the size of a good-sized barn, our hero will miss with 5% of his Acid Arrows. *(Even missing with a couple of the more-heavily-metamagicked ones, you can still get 868.)

I'd save one Quickened/Empowered/Maximised Acid Arrow for the very last round, to be cast in the same round as Wish, in order to prevent it from regenerating(on its turn/waiting for your next turn) between the AA and the Wish.

And if you're going for Acid Arrow like that, I'd go with the Sorceror(unusual for me), since you only have 3 spells in your entire repertoire anyways. A Warlock might be able to do this at any level, providing he can fly long enough, and his blasts hit hard enough.

Premier
2005-08-30, 04:33 AM
Ok, I have one. Take a level 19 expert with maxed ranks in architecture, the leadership feat, a unused ring of three wishes, and 18 charisma. His cohort is a bard of 16th level.

Day one- He hears about the tarrasque and uses wish one to wish for a giant, stone lined pit in an empty field nearby, with dimensions of 100foot radius, and 600,000feet deep. Then, he has his followers start to build a bridge across the chasm, using his enginnering skill to tell them how.

Day Two-finish bridge

Day Three- Bard lures tarrasque onto bridge, then casts sympathetic vibration on it, destroying the bridge and droping it into the pit. The tarrasque takes the falling damage(1d6 nonlethal, then 59,997d6 of lethal, and then the engineer wishes that the Big T stays dead.

Actually, NOT. It would play out more like this:

Day One: He hears about the tarrasque and uses wish one to wish for a giant, stone lined pit in an empty field nearby, with dimensions of 100foot radius, and 600,000feet deep. The pit cuts DEEP into the planet's mantle. The bottom two-thirds of the pit immediately melt, and a geyser of lava bursts out, killing the architect and the bard instantly.

The_Werebear
2005-08-30, 08:38 AM
In that case, the lava burst kills everything in a large raidus, including the tarrasque. Then a wizard comes by and wishes it dead. Maybe it is just me, but I saw DND planes as exactly that-Flat planes. I dont think that would burrow all the way through one, but that is just me.

Edtharan
2005-08-30, 08:41 AM
The bit T is imune to fire.

Premier
2005-08-30, 09:27 AM
In that case, the lava burst kills everything in a large raidus, including the tarrasque.

The Tarrasque is still a day's walk away. Either that, or the original plan assumed that it would be just loitering around in sight peacefully of the pit for three days while the trap is being prepared, which would be kind of ridiculous.


Then a wizard comes by and wishes it dead.

Assuming that

A, a wizard DOES happen to come by within a few hours before the Tarrasque regenerates. This is unlikely, since the area would still consist of lots of semi-liquid lava, and even the cooler parts would be still too hot to walk on for a human. Plus, why the hell would wizards go traipsing around hour-old volcanoes in the middle of nowhere particular?

B, the wizard finds and recognizes the body as belonging to the Tarrasque. There's no guarantee for the latter, since the wizard has likely never seen it before (he wouldn't be still alive otherwise, likely).

C, the wizard KNOWS that you need a Wish spell to completely kill the T.. It's not exactly common knowledge IC, and character knowledge does not equal player knowledge.

D, the wizard is actually high-enough level to cast Wish, and just happens to have one memorized.

Which all adds up to: Extremely Bloody Unlikely.

And that's all ignoring the fact that the T. is immune to fire.


Maybe it is just me, but I saw DND planes as exactly that-Flat planes. I dont think that would burrow all the way through one, but that is just me.

The Prime Material worlds are not "planes" in the sense the Inner and Outer Planes are. They are, at least in the basic D&D settings, proper planets, hanging out in proper solar systems in proper space enclosed in huge crystal spheres floating in the phlogiston. Refer to Spelljammer for more details.

Rigeld
2005-08-30, 10:01 AM
I'll accept the wishing for the right gem to be teleported/gated/etc to you is acceptable.
However I just read up on trap the soul and if the gem is destroyed then the creature inside is released and the physical body reforms. 3.0 PHB p266 (Trap the soul) "The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform."

You could use this to keep Big T from rampageing but it would not kill it (and you better hope that the gem is never broken). If you want you can buy yourself more time to organise a kill with this (or similar technique) but unfortunately it does not fullfill the kill requierment.

Read my post. The third wish was to destroy the gem. Worded properly, this wont set him loose. (Something to the effect of, I wish that this stone were destroyed without breaking it and destroying the enchantment upon it). Any way you look at it, I get xp for the encounter.

VariaVespasa
2005-08-30, 10:20 AM
You forgot to mention how long it would take to drown the tarrasque, and exactly how you'd get the tarrasque into the wall of force prison in the first place. And where would you stand when that thing has a natural reach of 20ft?
And don't forget its frightful presence. Are you confident enough to pass a DC 36 will save if you're under level 20? Probably not.
As for drinking the water, it could still manage to consume a fair amount, considering how quickly it can metabolise things that it swallows whole.

One possible tactic is repeatedly casting Morality Undone on the tarrasque until it becomes evil, and then using a talisman of ultimate good to destroy it instantly.

Or you could get a bow, a load of slaying arrows, and cast shadaow steed, walk around on air above it, or simply stay out of its reach (it only has a land speed of 20 feet) and pepper it with arrows till it fails its saving throw. Then Wish.

Sigh, DO read the rest of the thread first, will you, before asking questions that have been covered, SEVERAL times, already.

You dont get it into a force cage (well, I dont, anyway), you sucker it over a 200-some foot deep pit, and just use walls of force to block it in there while it drowns.

Standard drowning rules suggest it will take somewhere around 40 rounds to drown, plus or minus 10.

Walls of force have a casting range of 60-some feet for the lvl 14+ casters envisioned here, so they just stand at the edge of the pit, which is out of claw range, and cast what they like.

Frightful presence- Meet heroes feast (cleric 6) on the morning of battle, what fear effects? Yes, yes, a feast for breakfast, deal with it. They can skip dinner, if it makes you feel any better.

It may be able to drink a lot. Even it it manages to drink and metabalise away 5000 cubic feet of water each round its still peanuts to the 30,000+ cubic feet that even a lvl 8 cleric can add in a round. And really, even if it is metabolising 5000 cubic feet per round, its, well, metabolising it, not disintegrating it. So after a few rounds of trying to drink the pit of water, nature will take its course, and its just gonna wind up refilling the pit as fast as it can drink, in its own special way. All that does is mean it dies in warm (yellow) water, rather than cold... :P On the plus side, urine is used in leatherworking, so maybe it'll give the tanners a headstart on curing its hide... :P

*Hugs*
Varia

AtomicKitKat
2005-08-30, 10:32 AM
I say Big T will punch his way through(literally) the "Force Bars" and then calmly regenerate from the blobby bits that float to the surface. He then calmly grabs the arrogant bastards thinking their little Walls of Force could stop him, and calmly swallows them all. Calmly. :P

Edmund
2005-08-30, 12:06 PM
I still think T sloshing around in the pit would send plenty enough water over the edge for him to keep breathing until he goes back into hibernation (At which point I would say drowning is out of the question).

Also, what's to say that our dear T will actually go into a pit to begin with?

ghostrunner
2005-08-30, 12:09 PM
As for drinking the water, it could still manage to consume a fair amount, considering how quickly it can metabolise things that it swallows whole.

A Tarrasque could not drink all the water. It has nothing to do with metablizing anything. There is a certain mass of water. No matter how much the tarraque drinks, that same mass of water is in the pit/walls of force cage. Assuming that the beast is capabale of drinking the entire volume of water without being killed by doing so, the tarrasque itself would inflate by the volume of water that it drank. The volume water has to go somewhere, and if it's not in the pit around the tarrasque, then it is inside the tarrasque, where its unchanged mass must take up the same amount of volume. Unless the tarrasque has some sort of dimentional portal in it's digestive tract to siphon the water out of this plane of existance, it could not possibly survive by drinking the water.

Spuddly
2005-08-30, 12:40 PM
A Tarrasque could not drink all the water. It has nothing to do with metablizing anything. There is a certain mass of water. No matter how much the tarraque drinks, that same mass of water is in the pit/walls of force cage. Assuming that the beast is capabale of drinking the entire volume of water without being killed by doing so, the tarrasque itself would inflate by the volume of water that it drank. The volume water has to go somewhere, and if it's not in the pit around the tarrasque, then it is inside the tarrasque, where its unchanged mass must take up the same amount of volume. Unless the tarrasque has some sort of dimentional portal in it's digestive tract to siphon the water out of this plane of existance, it could not possibly survive by drinking the water.

See, you're assuming too much. I don't think there's any conservation of mass in the D&D universe. I mean, conjuring a feast from nothing? Or a house? What of the fabricate spell? Not to mention there's no such thing as energy conservation or thermodynamics in D&D.

We're dealing with a magic beast here. It says so right in the description. As absurd as it seems for a Tarrasque to drink hundreds of thousands of gallons of water, the Tarrasque is an equally absurd creature.

Jotoco
2005-08-30, 03:27 PM
But I still assume commom sense aplies.
Water going to nowhere is ridiculous. Magic can create things, off course. But that is because of... say... MAGIC??
It says in nowhere Tarrasques can "swallow any amount of anything without suffering any damage or ailment or anything for that matter. It's interior is invulnerable to anything of any level without a check."

Rigeld
2005-08-30, 03:34 PM
See, you're assuming too much. I don't think there's any conservation of mass in the D&D universe. I mean, conjuring a feast from nothing? Or a house? What of the fabricate spell? Not to mention there's no such thing as energy conservation or thermodynamics in D&D.

We're dealing with a magic beast here. It says so right in the description. As absurd as it seems for a Tarrasque to drink hundreds of thousands of gallons of water, the Tarrasque is an equally absurd creature.

Theres Matter and Energy. Magic is a form of Energy. Spells that create things (like a feast, house, wall, whatever) take the energy and turn it into stuff. Conservation of mass!

Spuddly
2005-08-30, 03:42 PM
Conservation of mass
Conservation of mass is a chemical term for doing stoichiometry, not nuclear physics.

The amount of energy needed to create even the smallest of matter would require the output of the sun.

See, the equation e=mc^2 relates energy, e, to mass, m, and the speed of light, c. Notice how the speed of light is squared.

To make one kilogram of mass, you would require about 90,000,000,000,000,000 joules. Turning one kilo of mass into energy would in turn yield 90,000,000,000,000,000 joules.

Of course, none of this matters, as we're dealing with magic. Who's to say a Tarrasque can't digest all he wants? There's nothing in the description that says he can't.

The_Werebear
2005-08-30, 04:06 PM
Ok, If the pit trap won't work..

Take a level 19 wizard. He will be able to prepare 3 ninth level spells. He prepares 2 Gates and 1 Wish. He then overland flights himself over to Mr.T. Then, he uses gate to summon a Solar. The Outsider is forced to do the bidding of the wizard because if you have it do an immidaite task, then it is just like a Summon Monster spell. The outsider whups on the Tarraque for a bit( I am assuming it whups on the Tarrasque becuase it is cr 23 vs cr 20, can fly, and has the bow of slaying and a dancing greatsword). If the Tarrasque isn't dead by the time the solar's work is over, He uses the second gate to resummon it, and if it close to dead, he simply forces it to finish it. If it is still mostly alive, he uses the contractual form of it and pays what it wants to kill Big T. Then he uses wish once it is dead

Jotoco
2005-08-30, 05:14 PM
Of course, none of this matters, as we're dealing with magic. Who's to say a Tarrasque can't digest all he wants? There's nothing in the description that says he can't.

So, it's not in the description that a humam is humanoid, that it needs to sleep everyday, or when he is tired for that matter. Oh! And it's not in the description that humans can't eat the whole world!!! SO a level 1 commoner can dry an OCEAN! MAN! I never though I were so powerful!!!!!

Ok, let go of this and I will present a way to beat this monster. It's obviously not the best, It can be improved, but I'm not that good. So feel free to add some improvements to it.
The Human Paladin 14 Ranger 5, charge-all-day method of killing a tarrasque!

Let's do a math thingy.

First, take an 14th level Human Paladin and 5th level ranger, with a Light Warhorse as mount.
The Paladin feats are: Mounted Combat, Ride-by attack, Spirited Charge, weapon focus: Lance.

+ 3 Merciful Lance of Bane (50k)
Rhino Ride (5k)
Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36k)

Empowered Expeditious retreat in mount: level 2 spell... 45feet more movement.
Light warhorse normal movement = 60feet + 10 feet (paladin mount) X 2 (charging) = 140 + 45 (spell) = 185 feet per turn.

It's missing so little to have a movement speed in charge that the tarrasque can not follow even with the rush ability...
Damn that ALL speed increasing effects are enhancements thus do not add up.
The way we are now is: Stay at leats 40 feet away from him, so he will not be able to normally reach you. Charge and use your full speed to go as far away as possible: 120 feet away.
Damn Damn Damn... I think I will need to use a pegasus. Ok, So a pegasus with Fly-by-attack and improved fly-by attack. That charges, hits and fly away from reach. AH! And the ranger happens to have the magical beast as his enemy twice, for a nice +4 bonus.

Ok, now for the attack statistics:
It's a charge, so +2 to attack. Starting 16 str. Added 3 times for level gains. +6 belt of giant str. 25 str. The paladin uses a bull's str or asks for someone to cast it. Casts Prayer. And has a scroll of remove fear for mount once it is affected, so the duration is 10min/level and it's immunity, not bonus.
Check: 19 (BAB) + 3 (weapon) + 2 (charge) + 7 (str) + 1 (focus) + 2 (bull str) + 1 (prayer) +4 (enemy) = 37 + dice roll. wich will always hit.
Damage: 1d8 (lance) + 3 (Weap bonus) + 1 (prayer) + 9 (str with bull str) + 4 (enemy) X 3 (charge) = 63 in average. PLUS Bane and Rhino Ride wich equal 4d6, or 12 in average. to a 85 damage per attack in average. Wich beats it's damage reduction and regeneration by 30 points of damage.
That and the ocasional critical is enough to assure the death of the tarrasque.

Remember, I only used CORE BOOKS (The SRD to be precise).
And I remember reading in another books some nice bonuses that would make this build better, and make it work in lower levels.

ghostrunner
2005-08-30, 05:30 PM
Of course, none of this matters, as we're dealing with magic. Who's to say a Tarrasque can't digest all he wants? There's nothing in the description that says he can't.
However, there's nothing in the description that says he can. You're making just as great of an assumption to say that there is no conservation of mass.

The SRD doesn't specify such, though IIRC, the DMG has a sidebar entitled "How Real is Your Fantasy?" The sidebar discusses to what degree a DM's setting could reflect the properties of the real world, and whatever that degree is should be kept consistent. In a setting that I design, I'd most like say that conservation of mass and energy applies. I generally think of magic that creates stuff creates it out of something, though that something may not be readily apparent (this is obviously not in the RAW). I like the concept of Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea series; if a mage calls wind and rain, somewhere else will recieve drought and stillness.


We're dealing with a magic beast here. It says so right in the description. As absurd as it seems for a Tarrasque to drink hundreds of thousands of gallons of water, the Tarrasque is an equally absurd creature.
Simply because the Tarrasque is a magical beast does not necessarily mean that whatever properties I want to give it apply (obviously, I can do whatever I want if I'm the DM, but if I mean if I'm using the RAW). The error in that logic is more clear if I say that "the tarrasque's sneezes shoot fireballs and it's farts shoot lightning because it is a magical beast and those are magic spells." For the beast to have those properties, it would have to say so in the RAW; otherwise, every magical beast must have every magical ability possible. And as far as absurdity goes, it would be absurd for a tarraque to be wearing clown makeup. That doesn't mean an absurd creature like the tarrasque wears clown makeup. The concept of absurdity doesn't make all absured things identical.

My point is that if we do throw conservation of mass and energy out the window, those things need to be consistently applied. If something (like a spell) can create matter from nothing, it can do so because the rules explicitly say that it can do so. Likewise, if something (like a tarraque's gizzard) can destroy matter, it can only do so if the rules explicitly say so (which they don't).
Certainly, a DM can rule that a tarrasque can drink all of that water, but I would expect the DM to be consistant with his concept of digestion.

VariaVespasa
2005-08-30, 05:50 PM
I say Big T will punch his way through(literally) the "Force Bars" and then calmly regenerate from the blobby bits that float to the surface. He then calmly grabs the arrogant bastards thinking their little Walls of Force could stop him, and calmly swallows them all. Calmly. :P

Like Mr T does ANYTHING calmly! It doesnt even SNORE calmly... :P

*Hugs*
Varia

VariaVespasa
2005-08-30, 05:54 PM
I still think T sloshing around in the pit would send plenty enough water over the edge for him to keep breathing until he goes back into hibernation (At which point I would say drowning is out of the question).

Also, what's to say that our dear T will actually go into a pit to begin with?

Bear in mind that he's 50+ feet below the surface. Sloshing a few feet of water over the top of the pit is meaningless when he needs to get rid of at least 30 feet to be able to breath again, and clerics keep filling it back up looong before he can empty that much.

And he'll fall into the pit for the same reason anybody falls into a pit- he didnt see it in time. Thats why you cover and cammoflage pits that are intended as a surprise...

*Hugs*
Varia

VariaVespasa
2005-08-30, 05:57 PM
But I still assume commom sense aplies.
Water going to nowhere is ridiculous. Magic can create things, off course. But that is because of... say... MAGIC??
It says in nowhere Tarrasques can "swallow any amount of anything without suffering any damage or ailment or anything for that matter. It's interior is invulnerable to anything of any level without a check."

It DOES in fact very specifically say what the limits on the tarrasques stomach are (a mere 32 medium creatures), which is proof that it cant just keep drinking forever.

*Hugs*
Varia

Premier
2005-08-30, 06:10 PM
Jotoco:


And what exactly would keep the Big T. from just slapping you off the horse's back on your first pass, eh? If you're close enough to it to hit it with a lance, it's also close enough TO YOU to hit you.

Jotoco
2005-08-30, 06:34 PM
And what exactly would keep the Big T. from just slapping you off the horse's back on your first pass, eh? If you're close enough to it to hit it with a lance, it's also close enough TO YOU to hit you.

Well... I think at least that charging in this way does not provoke any attacks of oportunity, and Tarrasques are too stupid to ready actions against a charge. At least, I think.

Rigeld
2005-08-30, 06:37 PM
Jotoco:


And what exactly would keep the Big T. from just slapping you off the horse's back on your first pass, eh? If you're close enough to it to hit it with a lance, it's also close enough TO YOU to hit you.



Three words.

Ride By Attack


Ride-By Attack [General]
Prerequisites

Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit

When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
Special

A fighter may select Ride-By Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

VariaVespasa
2005-08-30, 06:45 PM
Jotoco:


And what exactly would keep the Big T. from just slapping you off the horse's back on your first pass, eh? If you're close enough to it to hit it with a lance, it's also close enough TO YOU to hit you.



Nods, this is the problem with any approach that involves melee attacks; *while a ride-by or fly-by attack does not provoke an AoO (assuming you have the feat, anyway), initiative will hose you down- if the tarrasque has wins initiative (which lasts for the duration of the battle) it can just prepare its action (kill and eat the little guy if he comes within reach) and wait for you to try your attack, and then attempt to eat your face when you do, with the incidental affect of resetting its initiative to just before yours. *If you won initiative they you make your attack, it then prepares its action, same as above, and waits for you to try to attack again next round. *If you do, then it gets to attack you the instance you get within reach and sets its initiative to just before yours in the process. *After that you're boned. *You cant trade blows with the tarrasque and win, quite apart from the sudden death issues of being swallowed whole. *If you manage to get a melee weapon with a striking range of more than 20 feet (out of Mr T's striking range), then modifying the tarrasques prepared action to "jump and bite the little guy if he gets within reach" will mean you now need a 100 foot weapon or so, to stay out of his reach and thus attack with impunity, which youre unlikely to possess... *Yes, adding the jump will limit the tarrasque to just his bite attack (if I read the rules right) in each exchange, which obviously hurts a lot less, but it still hurts, and has the chance of swallowing, which hurts more, and lets him regenerate while youre hacking your way out. *And when you do hack your way out you're almost certainly in range of all 6 of his attacks, for at least 1 round, and already low on hp...

So its far and away better to never get within reach of the beastie, and use either missiles or cheap tricks to take it down.

*Hugs*
Varia

Spuddly
2005-08-30, 06:49 PM
So, it's not in the description that a humam is humanoid, that it needs to sleep everyday, or when he is tired for that matter. Oh! And it's not in the description that humans can't eat the whole world!!! SO a level 1 commoner can dry an OCEAN! MAN! I never though I were so powerful!!!!!

Nowhere in the description is a human a magical beast that eats everything and anything.

VariaVespasa
2005-08-30, 06:49 PM
Well... I think at least that charging in this way does not provoke any attacks of oportunity, and Tarrasques are too stupid to ready actions against a charge. At least, I think.

I doubt its too stupid. Its smarter than your cat, and you have only to watch your cat as you tease it with a dangly thing to see it prepare a jumping attack to use the instant the dangly thing comes in range.

*Hugs*
Varia

Rigeld
2005-08-30, 06:55 PM
Nowhere in the description is a human a magical beast that eats everything and anything.


Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep. (from the SRD)

Time for me to start eating trees, breathing water, and sleeping 2 seconds every century. thanks~

Jotoco
2005-08-30, 07:08 PM
Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep. (from the SRD)

Time for me to start eating trees, breathing water, and sleeping 2 seconds every century. thanks~

This is off topic, but... the rules don't even say humans are humanoid... see here: http://bb.bbboy.net/niftymessageboard-viewthread?forum=6&thread=1183

Well, for the topic thingy:

I doubt its too stupid. Its smarter than your cat, and you have only to watch your cat as you tease it with a dangly thing to see it prepare a jumping attack to use the instant the dangly thing comes in range.
That defeats me. I surrender.

But I still like the idea of that. There should be someway to make this work...

Rigeld
2005-08-30, 08:17 PM
This is off topic, but... the rules don't even say humans are humanoid... see here: http://bb.bbboy.net/niftymessageboard-viewthread?forum=6&thread=1183


And the table of ranger favored enemies lists humanoid (human) as a favored enemy type and subtype combination.

From that thread also. Maybe not where it should be, but its referenced somewhere.

Edtharan
2005-08-30, 11:28 PM
A lot of these plans are fairly complex. I think that a KISS (keep it simple silly) approach is the best. Less things can go wrong.

Jotoco
2005-08-31, 12:23 AM
Well you can set a teleportation circle as a trap to the tarrasque. And send him to the bottom of the ocean, where it would be either crushed by the pressure or drown.

The pressure would be (in 3 kilometers underwater) 3000*10000 = 30000000 Newton. Don't know, but that must be "unconfortable".

Lokey
2005-08-31, 01:10 AM
Well you can set a teleportation circle as a trap to the tarrasque...
Even though it has a 10 minute casting time and a 1000gp component, it's an I cast a spell and defeat the Terrasque (all you need is a lure, which can be yourself flying in front of it with a hunk of steak). Plus that spell gets around the size limitation of gating Terrasque somewhere. So all you need is to be able to cast that spell and lure big T to the spot (as long as your char can pick a place to stick Terra that's out of your hair and you can handle the fear ability)?

Greater Teleport from SRD
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.

AtomicKitKat
2005-08-31, 04:38 AM
Hmm, party of Paladin/Ranger/Cavalier/Wild Plains Outriders. Quintuple damage on a Lance. Yummy. :P Of course, you could also get a Frenzied Berserker with a Scythe, or theoretically a 7 level Weapon Master(for the increased multiplier). I also seem to remember another PRC adding to the multiplier as well.

Edit: Found it. Hida Defender, page 212 from Oriental Adventures. Sadly you're limited to only 1 of 3 weapons, but still, a Battleaxe with a *5 multiplier is nothing to sneeze at. ;D

Elurindel
2005-08-31, 04:26 PM
Sigh, DO read the rest of the thread first, will you, before asking questions that have been covered, SEVERAL times, already.

You dont get it into a force cage (well, I dont, anyway), you sucker it over a 200-some foot deep pit, and just use walls of force to block it in there while it drowns.

Standard drowning rules suggest it will take somewhere around 40 rounds to drown, plus or minus 10.

Walls of force have a casting range of 60-some feet for the lvl 14+ casters envisioned here, so they just stand at the edge of the pit, which is out of claw range, and cast what they like.

Frightful presence- Meet heroes feast (cleric 6) on the morning of battle, what fear effects? Yes, yes, a feast for breakfast, deal with it. They can skip dinner, if it makes you feel any better.

It may be able to drink a lot. Even it it manages to drink and metabalise away 5000 cubic feet of water each round its still peanuts to the 30,000+ cubic feet that even a lvl 8 cleric can add in a round. And really, even if it is metabolising 5000 cubic feet per round, its, well, metabolising it, not disintegrating it. So after a few rounds of trying to drink the pit of water, nature will take its course, and its just gonna wind up refilling the pit as fast as it can drink, in its own special way. All that does is mean it dies in warm (yellow) water, rather than cold... :P On the plus side, urine is used in leatherworking, so maybe it'll give the tanners a headstart on curing its hide... :P

*Hugs*
Varia

Are you counting the regeneration, or does that not work for drowning?
You're also forgetting that the tarrasque is entitled to a spot check for traps, of which it has +17. or failing that, it has +29 to it's reflex save to avoid falling into a pit in the first place.

Edmund
2005-08-31, 05:19 PM
Also:
Since it is (presumably) impossible to predict when T will wake up, how are you going to dig this pit in time for him? As someone pointed out, it's not very easy to dig quickly without a burrowing ability, and even then you can't expect to get a hole big enough to drop T into that he can't yank himself out of in 3 days.

How would you know where he would be headed? Do you have your Tarrasque Doppler Radar out? The Tarrasque is a force of nature, in its own way, and as such it is unpredictable in its path.

Even if you grabbed his attention by waving a steak in front of him, what's to say he'll actually follow it, and not go after the much larger, much meatier heard of cows behind him?

The whole drowning thing relies on too many preliminary 'what ifs' to really be a plausible solution.

VariaVespasa
2005-08-31, 06:30 PM
Also covered-

The tarrasque only gets a spot check if its taking time to look. A certain amount of baiting is part of the plan, to get it good and annoyed so its trying to close and eat its tormentor, rather than looking where its going.

It only gets a reflex save if its not running or otherwise moving recklessly. The baiting mentioned above is also designed to to keep it running/moving recklessly so it wont get a reflex save, in addition to leading it over the pit in the first place when the time comes.

Regen does not help for drowning. Its all healthy, healthy, healthy, fail increasingly bad con check, drowning but healthy, drowning but healthy, drowned and dead at negative hp sufficient to kill. At that point you can use your wish.

You dont know when its going to wake up, so unless you're in a kingdom which habitually gets attacked by the thing (and thus might have some prepared defenses for it) you have to dig the pit once you find out about the problem. This will probably take a day or three while you find out what area Mr T is in, roughly which way he's going, organise the evacuation of the area, and the preparation of suitable bait (make sure you have the only herd of cows left in the area, or similar), and baiting teams to harrass and enrage Mr T and lead him around in circles till the pit is ready, and then actually dig the pit. Digging the pit shouldnt be too bad. Shapechanging into a suitable creature that DOES have digging abilities, especially stone-digging abilities, is usually a good method of rapid hole-making. I, personally, favor shapechanging into a beholder for that kind of thing, or whatever the current 3.5 equivalent is. Disintegrating a 10 foot cube every round gets things done quite fast, but I'm sure there are lesser critters that lower level spells can shape you into that can do the job inside a few days too.

So no, unless the area in question has some reason to be expecting a tarrasque attack, its not going to be an instant defense and Mr T is going to have a few days to run amok before the trapping attempt. The reason I like the pit method is because it doesnt rely on having specific, probably broken, sets of gear, or exotic classes or specific feats to make it work. It relies only on modestly levelled (compared to having a tarrasque around), basic core classes, and no specific feats or gear to make it happen, so it can be done anywhere, anytime, relatively speaking. With a few modifications (but a LOT more prep time) it can even be done by basic peasants with no magic at all, apart from the wish.

Yes, Mr T can be dealt with by other methods suggested in this thread, but drowning it has a simple elegance to it, which appeals to me more than mindless "i have more firepower than the tarrasque, bwah hah hah hah" powergaming it to death, which is what most of the other suggestions come down to. If Mr T is supposed to be the ultimate killing machine, then I'm not sanguine about players running around with even heavier firepower.

*Hugs*
Varia

Lysander
2005-08-31, 07:40 PM
How about this: create a pit to trap it or lure it into a canyon. Summon several small flying creatures and have them fly into the Tarrasque's ears and start beating on its eardrums. The damage would be insignificant but it'd cause disorienting vibrations in its inner ear. Then you collapse the walls of the canyon/pit with powerful destructive spells, possibly even helped by the Tarrasque as it thrashes to get your small and reasonably durable creatures out (elementals?). Then as earth and stone heap on top of the Tarrasque you create an illusion of sunlight and heat coming from below it. With its poor sense of balance it confuses down for up and starts trying to dig itself out in the wrong direction. It suffocates beneath the earth, and then you wish it dead.

Edtharan
2005-08-31, 08:04 PM
So no, unless the area in question has some reason to be expecting a tarrasque attack, its not going to be an instant defense and Mr T is going to have a few days to run amok before the trapping attempt. The reason I like the pit method is because it doesnt rely on having specific, probably broken, sets of gear, or exotic classes or specific feats to make it work.

Good point.

If you're trying to have a go the chalenge. Then remember the following...


2) Only Character classes, races, abilities, spells, etc found in either the DMG or PHB. Must state the Eddition (3.0 or 3.5), Book (PHB/DMG), Page number of the rule used.

Using just the available options in the DMG and PHB you can kill the Tarrasque by level 13. Can someone do better?

AtomicKitKat
2005-08-31, 11:02 PM
Using just the available options in the DMG and PHB you can kill the Tarrasque by level 13. Can someone do better?

The absolute lowest you can go is 17. Any lower would require a Ring of Wish, and let's face it, we count the highest level character required here, and you need a level 17 Wizard to make said ring, so...

Edtharan
2005-08-31, 11:49 PM
You can by useing the character wealth by level.

Reptile
2005-09-01, 12:41 AM
Using just the available options in the DMG and PHB you can kill the Tarrasque by level 13. Can someone do better?


Well, invoking Rule 6 ("The wish to finally kill it is assumed"), here's a level 5 solution. Yes, I said level 5. Yes, like my previous post, it involves numerous Acid Arrows.

Four 5th-level wizards. Each has the Extend Spell feat, and for their 5th-level wizard feat, took Craft Wand. Each crafts a Wand of Extended Acid Arrows (cost to create a wand of 3rd-lvl spells with CL5: 5625gp, 450XP (http://d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWands)).

When the Tarrasque comes to town, each wizard casts Fly on themselves, takes out their wand, and starts blasting. A single Extended Acid Arrow at CL 5 lasts 4 rounds, dealing a total of 8d4 damage. Four wizards, each with 50 shots, deal 1600d4 damage in a little over 50 rounds--that's an average of 4000 damage. Regeneration will heal about 2000hp over this time...so they could deal 2000 net damage, which is still some *serious* overkill (even accounting for the fact that they will occasionally miss).

So, if the Wish can be taken as a given, there you go...
If not, make them four 8th-level wizards who do the above--then if they pool their extra money they can buy a Luck Blade (http://d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#luckBlade) with one stored Wish (cost 62360gp). (Yes, you can buy a scroll of Wish for cheaper--assuming you can find one--but casting from a scroll runs the risk of failure if you aren't high enough level to cast it normally.)

Trisk
2005-09-01, 04:09 AM
I doubt its too stupid. *Its smarter than your cat, and you have only to watch your cat as you tease it with a dangly thing to see it prepare a jumping attack to use the instant the dangly thing comes in range.

*Hugs*
Varia

At first I thought that you were a lier. So naturally I had to experiment. Test 1 it turned out it wasn't my cat..it was a sock. Test two I found out my cat was asleep. At test 3 however my cat did ready an attack action and did bite me. I'm waiting for it to sleep for some Coup De Grace...Errr

I still say a Wizard and 3 Rangers flying in the air firing lots of magic arrows.

Rigeld
2005-09-01, 10:13 AM
Well, invoking Rule 6 ("The wish to finally kill it is assumed"), here's a level 5 solution. Yes, I said level 5. Yes, like my previous post, it involves numerous Acid Arrows.

Four 5th-level wizards. Each has the Extend Spell feat, and for their 5th-level wizard feat, took Craft Wand. Each crafts a Wand of Extended Acid Arrows (cost to create a wand of 3rd-lvl spells with CL5: 5625gp, 450XP (http://d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWands)).

When the Tarrasque comes to town, each wizard casts Fly on themselves, takes out their wand, and starts blasting. A single Extended Acid Arrow at CL 5 lasts 4 rounds, dealing a total of 8d4 damage. Four wizards, each with 50 shots, deal 1600d4 damage in a little over 50 rounds--that's an average of 4000 damage. Regeneration will heal about 2000hp over this time...so they could deal 2000 net damage, which is still some *serious* overkill (even accounting for the fact that they will occasionally miss).

So, if the Wish can be taken as a given, there you go...
If not, make them four 8th-level wizards who do the above--then if they pool their extra money they can buy a Luck Blade (http://d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#luckBlade) with one stored Wish (cost 62360gp). (Yes, you can buy a scroll of Wish for cheaper--assuming you can find one--but casting from a scroll runs the risk of failure if you aren't high enough level to cast it normally.)



You forgot 1 tiny detail. None of those lvl 5 wizards can pass his 32 Spell resistance.

Dallerdin
2005-09-01, 11:34 AM
Melf's Acid Arrow doesn't permit SR.

Edtharan
2005-09-01, 11:57 AM
Melf's Acid Arrow doesn't permit SR.
Yes it does. 3.0 PHB p227 (Melf's Acid Arow) "Saveing throw: None, Spell resistance: Yes"

The Glyphstone
2005-09-01, 12:01 PM
3.5 PHB. pg. 253: Melf's Acid Arrow: Saving Throw: None; Spell Resistance: No

Reptile
2005-09-01, 12:06 PM
Melf's Acid Arrow doesn't permit SR.
Yes it does. 3.0 PHB p227 (Melf's Acid Arow) "Saveing throw: None, Spell resistance: Yes"

Ah, but these aren't 3.0 wizards, they're 3.5 wizards!

3.5 PHB p253 (Melf's Acid Arrow):
"Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No"

The SRD version of the spell (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm) also bypasses SR.

Edtharan
2005-09-01, 12:07 PM
Ahh. I don't have 3.5 and the SRD doesn't have Melf's.

edit: Just saw the link above. Its under Acid Arrow not Melf's Acid Arrow. :( ::)

Rigeld
2005-09-01, 12:30 PM
Yes it does. 3.0 PHB p227 (Melf's Acid Arow) "Saveing throw: None, Spell resistance: Yes"


Which is interesting, because the 3.5 SRD says no. It does however require a touch attack, which, with a touch ac of 5, most, but not all of those arrows will hit. I'll leave it up to someone else to figure out the math.

Remember, the first few rounds wont do any damage, being negated by regen. Same with the last few rounds. You cant just add it all up and say hes dead.

VariaVespasa
2005-09-01, 06:36 PM
Minor aside- remember that most of the alternate methods suggested probably also require a cleric 11 for the heroes feast, to prevent the fear effects from disrupting the various proposed attacks, especially the lvl 5 wizards idea.

*Hugs*
Varia

Rigeld
2005-09-01, 07:27 PM
Minor aside- remember that most of the alternate methods suggested probably also require a cleric 11 for the heroes feast, to prevent the fear effects from disrupting the various proposed attacks, especially the lvl 5 wizards idea.

*Hugs*
Varia



Frightful Presence (Su)

The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based.

He has to charge or attack to make me scared. If I'm flying he cant charge or attack. Plus, as long as im over 60 feet away, I dont fear him anyway, so no need for the feast.

Rigeld
2005-09-01, 07:42 PM
When the Tarrasque comes to town, each wizard casts Fly on themselves, takes out their wand, and starts blasting. A single Extended Acid Arrow at CL 5 lasts 4 rounds, dealing a total of 8d4 damage. Four wizards, each with 50 shots, deal 1600d4 damage in a little over 50 rounds--that's an average of 4000 damage. Regeneration will heal about 2000hp over this time...so they could deal 2000 net damage, which is still some *serious* overkill (even accounting for the fact that they will occasionally miss).


You actually only ever do 28 damage per round after regeneration, since CL5 Extended Acid Arrows only get 3 rounds (you get a round at spell,3,6,9,etc) you kill him in 32 rounds, assuming no misses. Not bad - I think the no SR is overpowered for conjuration spells but thats me.

Kiki-Jiki
2005-09-01, 09:25 PM
well, what about an army?
kind of 7 catapults, 8 balistas, 500 man, and some gold dragons?


and about the trap the soul, if i could got big T. i can drop the gem depply un a ocean and send some one to destroy it, killing itself and T.

Reptile
2005-09-01, 11:49 PM
You actually only ever do 28 damage per round after regeneration, since CL5 Extended Acid Arrows only get 3 rounds (you get a round at spell,3,6,9,etc) you kill him in 32 rounds, assuming no misses. Not bad - I think the no SR is overpowered for conjuration spells but thats me.
A regular (non-extended) Acid Arrow lasts one round plus 1 for every three caster levels. At CL 5, that's two rounds. Extend Spell doubles this, so it lasts four rounds.

So (ignoring the first three rounds where damage "ramps up," and the last three where it "ramps down"), we deal 32d4 damage per round (2d4 * 4 "active" arrows per wizard * 4 wizards). That's an average of 80, so 40 post-regeneration--enough to kill the Tarrasque in 22 rounds, assuming no misses.

VariaVespasa: I agree with Rigeld that the frightful presence isn't much of a problem (at least with this specific plan). The easy solution is to just stay 65 feet away. Alternatively, being "shaken" basically means you subtract 2 from most of your die rolls, so the wizards might miss a little more often, but they've still got more than enough firepower to finish the job.

Edtharan
2005-09-02, 12:38 AM
The problem with the Acid Arrow aproach is you would have to get Big T out in the open away from forests and such. If he is near a farest tehn he could take cover in there and gain advantage for concealment. Now this would probably be ann instictive reflex (int 3) as he would be taking damage and not able to do anything about it would seek some form of shealter.

If he got lured out (or just wandered out) on to plains then this would get him.

It would also be better if you have sorcerers as they would have more spells to bring him down with and therefor a better chance to beat him.

Reptile
2005-09-02, 01:24 AM
The problem with the Acid Arrow aproach is you would have to get Big T out in the open away from forests and such. If he is near a farest tehn he could take cover in there and gain advantage for concealment. Now this would probably be ann instictive reflex (int 3) as he would be taking damage and not able to do anything about it would seek some form of shealter.
Concealment? It's kind of hard to *conceal* the Tarrasque... ;)
Seriously, though, if a forest is dense enough and tall enough to provide cover, it's probably also difficult for it to the Tarrasque to take advantage of that cover (the trees would be dense enough that it couldn't get in, it would just end up knocking them over...).

Thinking about it, I doubt the Tarrasque would get concealment (which provides a miss chance)--you're always going to know where it is. It might, with strong emphasis on the might, be able to get partial cover (which provides an AC bonus)...but that AC bonus can be counteracted by, say, having each wizard cast Cat's Grace and Heroism before the battle.


It would also be better if you have sorcerers as they would have more spells to bring him down with and therefor a better chance to beat him.
Ah, but the goal was to minimize party level, no? This strategy requires 3rd-level spells, which would mean 6th-level sorcerors as opposed to 5th-level wizards...and in any case, the spellcasters aren't really limited by the number of spells they can memorize--the only spell they're casting from memory is a single Fly, since they're just using wands for most of the encounter.

ghostrunner
2005-09-02, 02:07 AM
The proposed contest rules don't account for terrain. True that terrain could make things more difficult, I think the contest rules are assuming optimal conditions.

Rigeld
2005-09-02, 08:46 AM
A regular (non-extended) Acid Arrow lasts one round plus 1 for every three caster levels. At CL 5, that's two rounds. Extend Spell doubles this, so it lasts four rounds.


Sorry, misread Extend. Youre right.

Seffbasilisk
2005-09-02, 12:26 PM
Something I think none of you thought of. The pit trap idea. Only you summon a wall of iron or whatever near it and etch a rune of reverse gravity (touch, permanent) on it. At the bottom of the pit have a rune of reverse gravity touch permanent. And some Mithril (or adamantium whichever is stronger) spikes. You lure it in, it falls in lands on the spikes, you topple the wall over sealing the pit then put some heavy things on it (immobile rods maybe?) After being impaled on the spikes, it shoots up and smacks into the wall. falling damage and triggering the rune, goes down to the spikes, spikes + falling damage, hit the rune, goes up to the wall. After doing this for a while, it dies. You can scry on it or something to watch it if you want (make popcorn too) When it dies wish it dead, or hire a wizard to do it, or get a bloody scroll of wish.

Lysander
2005-09-02, 05:00 PM
What if you could somehow put a bag of holding in a portable hole within the Tarrasque? You could do it by sealing an unseen servant holding both in a hollow steel sphere, then getting the Tarrasque to swalllow it. The servant has instructions to combine the two upon being swallowed, forming a portal to the astral plane in the Tarrasque's stomach. What would happen then is up for interpretation. Maybe the Tarrasque would just get sent to the astral plane, but I like to think it'd implode violently and appear on the astral plane as a mangled inside-out corpse. Then wish it dead.

Jotoco
2005-09-02, 08:30 PM
I just like my idea of having a single wizard PC cast circle of teleportation (permanet if necessary) to the bottom of the ocean, and wish it dead. Use scrolls, if need be. Using scrolls, this could be made lower, lower levels... AND with a single character.

Rigeld
2005-09-02, 08:48 PM
I just like my idea of having a single wizard PC cast circle of teleportation (permanet if necessary) to the bottom of the ocean, and wish it dead. Use scrolls, if need be. Using scrolls, this could be made lower, lower levels... AND with a single character.

I coulda done the Trap the Soul with one char, but the contest stipulated 4 :p I might be able to do it at a lower level, but it requires abusing UMD and I dont feel like messing with the numbers atm.

Reptile
2005-09-02, 09:46 PM
I just like my idea of having a single wizard PC cast circle of teleportation (permanet if necessary) to the bottom of the ocean, and wish it dead. Use scrolls, if need be. Using scrolls, this could be made lower, lower levels... AND with a single character.

This idea generally sounds pretty good. There are a few details, though--first, a teleportation circle has only a 5-ft. radius, so it's impossible for the Tarrasque to fit inside. Would it activate if the Tarrasque simply stepped on it without being fully inside? Maybe...DM call, probably. (There might also be details about having an accurate enough description of the destination, but those are probably minor.)

Another issue is that with using scrolls, you have a chance of failure (and possibly even a mishap, which would suck (http://d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#scrollMishaps)) if you aren't high enough level to cast the spell normally. A scroll of Teleportation Circle requires a DC 18 caster level check to cast--the lower level you are, the harder this is to make.

Still, this idea looks reasonably workable.

Jotoco
2005-09-02, 10:05 PM
Bard level 10
Wizard level 9
commoner 1
commoner 1

Combined wealth (85k)

UMD Skill: 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 13 =26
Synergy (decipher and spellcraft)
Fox cunning
15 int
Heroism cast by wizard
skill focus (UMD)
actual skill points

4,825 gp (teleportation circle)
28,825 gp (scroll of wish)
6,000 gp (horse shoes of a zephyr)

The bard casts teleportation circle in somewhere where it's concealed (by grass, or something), or make it invisible (can I????)[don't need to!!!
Note: Magic traps such as teleportation circle are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the circle and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 34 in the case of teleportation circle. ] then one of the commoners using the horseshoes of a zephyr(on a horse!!!) atracts Big T to the teleportation circle, and voilá! Instant teleport to the bottom of the ocean, the sun, the center of the earth, or any place that grants instant death to the Tarrasque, followed by the wish, of course, use some sort of divination to find out if he is dead or anything... The bard is only going to fail the UMD roll on a natural 2 or 1, so this is totally not going to happen. And the bard has time he can take 10 (he can, right? if this is possible, we can lower the level necessary). Any way done with a ridiculous party and don't need more than 1 day planning.


A scroll of Teleportation Circle requires a DC 18 caster level check to cast--the lower level you are, the harder this is to make.


Use a ScrollThe DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll.



There are a few details, though--first, a teleportation circle has only a 5-ft. radius, so it's impossible for the Tarrasque to fit inside.


You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot.

It will still be standing on top of it.

Rigeld
2005-09-02, 11:14 PM
If we're combining wealth I've got mine down to lvl 7.

Rog, Wiz, Cowherder, Politician.

Rog has max UMD (10) Skill Focus UMD (13) 18 Cha (Hes the face... 17) Circlet of Persuasion (20) Spellcraft Synergy (22) Heroism (24) Synergy with Decipher Script (26) Eagle's Splendor (28)

5% chance of failing, 5% chance of a mishap, so only a 1 in 400 chance of actually losing each scroll.

2 Scrolls of Wish, 1 Scroll of Trap The Soul. Everything else works like I said before.

Edtharan
2005-09-02, 11:24 PM
Four 5th-level wizards. Each has the Extend Spell feat, and for their 5th-level wizard feat, took Craft Wand. Each crafts a Wand of Extended Acid Arrows (cost to create a wand of 3rd-lvl spells with CL5: 5625gp, 450XP).
If you have the wizards make the wands then it would go over time. 3.0 PHB p81 (Craft Wand): ...Crafting a wand take 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price.

If each wizard made their own wands then the minimum time to mane them is 5 days (or 6 if you count the 625gp).

If they buy them then: 3.0 DMG p145 (charcter wealth by level): Level 5 characters can start with 9000gp. Enough to buy the wands.

The Luck blade: 3.0 DMG p189 (Luck Blade): Market price 170,560gp. This is far in excess of the character wealth.

If you can work out how to get the characters the wish spell then this method will work.

Jades
2005-09-02, 11:33 PM
Step 1: Purchase (or steal) the largest bag of holding avaliable
Step 2: Get swallowed by the Tarrasque
Step 3: Cut your way out of the stomach
Step 4: Insert heart into bag of holding
Step 5: Stab bag of holding with dagger/sword/bolt
Step 6: Wish it dead.

Of course, you are still inside, but hey, it works doesn't it?

Rigeld
2005-09-03, 10:31 AM
If you have the wizards make the wands then it would go over time. 3.0 PHB p81 (Craft Wand): ...Crafting a wand take 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price.

If each wizard made their own wands then the minimum time to mane them is 5 days (or 6 if you count the 625gp).

If they buy them then: 3.0 DMG p145 (charcter wealth by level): Level 5 characters can start with 9000gp. Enough to buy the wands.

The Luck blade: 3.0 DMG p189 (Luck Blade): Market price 170,560gp. This is far in excess of the character wealth.

If you can work out how to get the characters the wish spell then this method will work.


SRD says

Luck Blade costs 62,360 gp (1 wish)

Edtharan
2005-09-03, 10:37 AM
Still at L5 (and after purchaceing the wands) the characters would not have enough gold to buy the luck blade. If you increase the level you can get enough (lv 6 or 7 ought to do it and you would still have the lowest level kill).

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 11:02 AM
If we're combining wealth I've got mine down to lvl 7.

Don't know if you saw it, but just the wizard's and the bard's wealth are combined. That would almost certain happen in any game: "Hey, I found out a Tarrasque and a way to beat it! Let's sell all our stuff to buy the equipments needed! And become stronger, wealthier and famous!"
Who is going to decline on that ;D

AND i don't use some insane thing like using LOT's of skills in cross-class skills like you have put in spellcraft for rogues.

The total ECW for 4 7th level PCs are 76k.

Just for the trap the soul scroll you would spend almost all of it. THE 3.5 DMG page 241 list trap the soul as 13k for a 10 HD creature. Assuming it's 1k gp for each HP that's a 53k gp scroll (that no one will ever have to sell).

scroll of wish is 28,825 gp + 53,000 gp = 81,825gp > 76,000 gp.

AND you don't know the name of the tarrasque. It's likelly it has told anyone.

And that's not for entering the whole "picking up bessy is not picking up the gem, thing".

You can't wish for itens worth more than 25k gp, anyway. If your DM allows some stupid things like that, just wish for a + 73591783691398712346 crossbow of everything listed in the DMG and with every single spell in every single book at will, since there is no limit for how far a magical item wish can go.

Rigeld
2005-09-03, 12:01 PM
Don't know if you saw it, but just the wizard's and the bard's wealth are combined. That would almost certain happen in any game: "Hey, I found out a Tarrasque and a way to beat it! Let's sell all our stuff to buy the equipments needed! And become stronger, wealthier and famous!"
Who is going to decline on that ;D

AND i don't use some insane thing like using LOT's of skills in cross-class skills like you have put in spellcraft for rogues.

The total ECW for 4 7th level PCs are 76k.

Just for the trap the soul scroll you would spend almost all of it. THE 3.5 DMG page 241 list trap the soul as 13k for a 10 HD creature. Assuming it's 1k gp for each HP that's a 53k gp scroll (that no one will ever have to sell).

scroll of wish is 28,825 gp + 53,000 gp = 81,825gp > 76,000 gp.

AND you don't know the name of the tarrasque. It's likelly it has told anyone.

And that's not for entering the whole "picking up bessy is not picking up the gem, thing".

You can't wish for itens worth more than 25k gp, anyway. If your DM allows some stupid things like that, just wish for a + 73591783691398712346 crossbow of everything listed in the DMG and with every single spell in every single book at will, since there is no limit for how far a magical item wish can go.




/sigh...

First, youre right.. I need a Bard for the Bardic Knowledge to look up mr ts name. The 13k for the 10hd Trap The Soul includes the cost of the material components. Since i'm getting them seperately, it should actually cost less, but I didnt feel like pricing it out. Since your being picky tho, I will. 3,000 for Trap the soul, 28825 for each Wish, 4500 for the Circlet of persuasion. Every Rogue that even thinks about wanting to do well at UMD is going to get 5 ranks in DEcipher Script and Spellcraft. Its a given. And hes easily got the skillpoints for it.

Im wishing for a gem from the Plane of Earth that is worth 50k after my Bard uses his Bardic Lore to learn about Mr T. Let me word that differently. I wish for a "diamond the size of a pony from the Great Dismal Delve on the Elemental Plane of Earth"

Since wish says it cannot do more than

Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
and all im doing is summoning, it works just fine. And you cant tell me that a diamond that big isnt worth 50k gold.

So I have Trap the Soul, the component, and the Bard to do the research. Your only quibble was Bessie wearing the gem? Well since the gem is as big as Bessie, and we have a cowherder, We place the gem in the herd of cows, Major Image over it, and lure Mr T to it. He doesnt get a save until he interacts with it (touches it) and by then hes trapped.

Jotoco
2005-09-03, 12:33 PM
First, youre right.. I need a Bard for the Bardic Knowledge to look up mr ts name. The 13k for the 10hd Trap The Soul includes the cost of the material components. Since i'm getting them seperately, it should actually cost less, but I didnt feel like pricing it out. Since your being picky tho, I will. 3,000 for Trap the soul, 28825 for each Wish, 4500 for the Circlet of persuasion. Every Rogue that even thinks about wanting to do well at UMD is going to get 5 ranks in DEcipher Script and Spellcraft. Its a given. And hes easily got the skillpoints for it.

Some problems we might add here...

First, once you get your valuable gem you need a high level arcane caster to make your beaitiful scroll, worth 53k gp (even if you're giving the gem, it cost the same, but already payed for it) and it will take 53 days to make such a scroll... Well, I don't think you have that much time afterall.

And I would rule that the DC for knowing the Tarrasques name would be something like DC HD(or CR + 25) = 48 or 45, depending. Something THAT difficult is going to have, at a nice DM's hand, a DC of 40. Something that even a 20th level bard may have some problem to know. Even if it's 30, you still need a 15 or higher bard level to do the trick.


3,000 for Trap the soul, 28825 for each Wish, 4500 for the Circlet of persuasion.

It's not going to be a common pick for equipment for a group like this... That's why my total expendures are less than half of my ECW. They SOLD everything, that's only half of their total. And your choice of equipment is still at 85.7% of your ECW needing a cut in at least 35.7%.

That's all. The only thing that I would not allow is the Tarrasques name thing. The rest could be expected to happen in a game GM'ed by me.

Very cool method.

Rigeld
2005-09-04, 12:17 AM
Some problems we might add here...

First, once you get your valuable gem you need a high level arcane caster to make your beaitiful scroll, worth 53k gp (even if you're giving the gem, it cost the same, but already payed for it) and it will take 53 days to make such a scroll... Well, I don't think you have that much time afterall.

And I would rule that the DC for knowing the Tarrasques name would be something like DC HD(or CR + 25) = 48 or 45, depending. Something THAT difficult is going to have, at a nice DM's hand, a DC of 40. Something that even a 20th level bard may have some problem to know. Even if it's 30, you still need a 15 or higher bard level to do the trick.


It's not going to be a common pick for equipment for a group like this... That's why my total expendures are less than half of my ECW. They SOLD everything, that's only half of their total. And your choice of equipment is still at 85.7% of your ECW needing a cut in at least 35.7%.

That's all. The only thing that I would not allow is the Tarrasques name thing. The rest could be expected to happen in a game GM'ed by me.

Very cool method.


No, the reason the 10HD Trap The Soul cost 13k is because the material component is built into the cost of the scroll. Since im supplying the component, it only costs 3k.

DC 40 huh? Well since im level 7 , thats 7, plus 4 (int mod) plus 2 (Knowledge History Synergy) plus 2 (Heroism) plus 2 (Fox's Cunning) plus 2 (Candle of Invocation)... I cant make a DC 40, but since DC 30, RAW is

30 Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don’t understand the significance of the knowledge.
and I have about a 50% chance of making that without even trying to find more bonuses...

A 20th level bard btw would be 20+ 6 at least +2 +2 +2 =34 before he rolls, and thats without seeking pluses. I'm sure theres a way to get a generic Knowledge skill bonus, but I didnt look too hard. If a level 20 bard cant make a 48 DC without trying, he should quit.

Jotoco
2005-09-04, 12:25 AM
DC 40 huh? Well since im level 7 , thats 7, plus 4 (int mod) plus 2 (Knowledge History Synergy) plus 2 (Heroism) plus 2 (Fox's Cunning) plus 2 (Candle of Invocation)... I cant make a DC 40, but since DC 30, RAW is

First, Bardic Knowled IS NOT a skill check. No skill bonuses for you. And IIRC no int bonus or whatever.

And the cost is not for you, it's for THE WIZARD who's going to make the scroll. But you pay him the 50k. Still the scrolls market price is 53k and it takes 53 days to make.
If that wasn't true I would ask a friend to pay for my scrolls and then i'd pay him latter, so I would pay 0 go for the scroll and create it immediatelly. You don't pay another 50k.

Rigeld
2005-09-04, 11:52 AM
First, Bardic Knowled IS NOT a skill check. No skill bonuses for you. And IIRC no int bonus or whatever.

And the cost is not for you, it's for THE WIZARD who's going to make the scroll. But you pay him the 50k. Still the scrolls market price is 53k and it takes 53 days to make.
If that wasn't true I would ask a friend to pay for my scrolls and then i'd pay him latter, so I would pay 0 go for the scroll and create it immediatelly. You don't pay another 50k.



From the SRD

A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.)


Since it gets a synergy bonus with a skill, that says (to me) that its a skill check.

And the TtS scroll doesnt cost 53k. It costs 3k.

Jibar
2005-09-04, 01:32 PM
very easy,
Use the Anulas,

Sacrath
2005-09-04, 01:39 PM
Except big T is not psionic by any stretch of the term. So the Anulus would be completely inefective.

Spuddly
2005-09-04, 02:02 PM
Except big T is not psionic by any stretch of the term. So the Anulus would be completely inefective.

Could we somehow make him psychic?

I so want to Enlighten a Tarrasque!

How high level a ranger would you have to be to get Big T as your animal companion?

Reptile
2005-09-05, 12:39 AM
Still at L5 (and after purchaceing the wands) the characters would not have enough gold to buy the luck blade. If you increase the level you can get enough (lv 6 or 7 ought to do it and you would still have the lowest level kill).

When I posted the level-5 solution, I stated that it was exploiting Rule 6--that is, that the Wish was assumed.

With all of these solutions, there's a problem of either creating or finding the items in time. I was assuming that the wizards created the wands first (as handy weapons...or hey, maybe to sell if they've got a buyer who will pay them more...or for whatever other reason), not specifically to fight the Tarrasque.

And if you *are* going to count the Wish, all of these solutions have a problem: where do you find it?
(*walks into local small-town magic supply store*
"Hi, I'm looking for two scrolls of Wish and a scroll of Trap the Soul."
"Aisle three, next to the bat guano.")
When it comes down to it, no, it's *not* realistic for characters at this level to have these items, and if they don't have them initially it's *not* realistic for them to create/acquire them in the few days the Tarrasque is active. Realistically, a Wish or Miracle is simply not going to be available to characters until they're fairly high-level. But as I understand it, the contest isn't about what's realistic--if it were realistic, the Tarrasque would eat everything in this thread. :) It's about what's theoretically possible, given the various abilities--and wealth--by level.

With that in mind:
Party level 6th
3xWiz 6
1xBard 6 - good stats are 15 Int, 18 Cha

Wizards have Extend Spell, Craft Wand.
Bard has maxed Use Magic Device:
9 ranks
4 Cha (hey, s/he's a bard)
2 Eagle's Splendor
2 Heroism
2 synergy (Decipher Script)
2 synergy (Spellcraft)
2 Magical Aptitude
3 Skill Focus
3 Circlet of Persuasion
=29

3 Wizards each create a Wand of Extended Acid Arrows, one at CL 6 and two at CL 5. The CL 6 spells last 6 rounds, the CL5 spells last 4. Total damage over 56 rounds = 1 * 50 * 6 * 2d4 + 2*50*4*2d4 = 1400d4, average = 3500hp. Of course, the last two of those rounds there's only one spell left active, so over 54 rounds that's 1396d4, average 3490.
regeneration over 54 rounds = 2160hp.
net damage = 1330, ignoring misses. Even with misses, overkill.

Beginning of combat, the wizards cast Fly on themselves, and Fly, Heroism, Fox's Cunning, and Eagle's Splendor on the bard. The bard just flies around (singing...why not) while the wizards fire off the acid arrows, then once enough damage has been done reads a Scroll of Wish using Use Magic Device, making the DC 29 skill check.
(Why the Fox's Cunning? Well, that gives the bard an Int of 19, which is the minimum required Int to cast Wish, even from a scroll. The bard could try to fake this ability score with a second UMD check (http://d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm), but would have to get a 34 to succeed, so it wouldn't be a sure thing.)

Total cost = 1*6750gp+2*5625gp (wands) + 28,825gp (scroll) + 4,500gp (Circlet of Persuasion)= 51,325gp.
Total party wealth (pooled) = 52,000gp.

(As a side note, I *hope* this to be my last Acid-Arrow-related post to this thread. :))

Edtharan
2005-09-05, 12:43 AM
:-[ Oops my bad I did forget rule 6. So your solution stands for now at level 5

McDeath
2005-09-05, 01:57 AM
OT: In response to Spuddly's question, you'd have to be at a level where Epic people think you could whip their ass.

Premier
2005-09-05, 05:28 AM
Hey, I have a question to all those whose plans include people flying.

What's the guarantee that the Big T. won't start picking up boulders, smaller trees, cows, people, and pieces of brickwork and throwing them at the flying mages/bards/archers/whatever?

VariaVespasa
2005-09-05, 05:56 AM
In theory, no guarantee. But he's not exactly bright, so its iffy as to whether he's smart enough to throw stuff or not. Only one general type of animal throws stuff in the real world, so its hardly a given that Mr T is smart enough to. More to the point though- does he have appendages sufficiently hand -like to be able hold/scoop stuff for throwing, and are his limbs shaped and hinged properly to allow throwing?

*Hugs*
Varia

Selganor
2005-09-05, 07:23 AM
Why such big guns?

Here's a level 1 solution (granted, with some "provisions" that count as a CR 4)

Granted, this works only in 3.0 but is actually quite easy.

Take some stone pots to a patch of green slime and get as much greenslime you can transport with you.

Then get close enough to the tarrasque to be able to throw the pot (ranged touch vs. AC 5, with a -2 penalty for being shaken) this should be possible after 4-5 thrown pots max.

The green slime eats into the Tarrasque, changing 1d6 points of Con to green slime.
Scratching the slime away won't help the Tarrasque as it only will affect its claws.
It cannot burn it away, so the slime "eats" away... Not even being stopped by the acid in the stomach.

The 35 Con will get "eaten" in about 10 rounds (1 minute)

As there's no "damage" done, Regeneration doesn't apply, the T needn't even be "wished to death" as there's noting left of it that could regenerate.

And the massive amount of green slime can be easily burnt away (even with "normal" fire)

Unfortunately in 3.5 the T is immune du Ability damage (and therefore this tactic)

Rigeld
2005-09-05, 09:56 AM
Hey, I have a question to all those whose plans include people flying.

What's the guarantee that the Big T. won't start picking up boulders, smaller trees, cows, people, and pieces of brickwork and throwing them at the flying mages/bards/archers/whatever?

Improvised weapon -4 to hit, No proficency -4 to hit, 10 ft range increments -2/range..

So since we're already flying at 65 feet just to avoid the fear radius, thats a -18 to hit. And most of these builds can easily fly farther away.

Premier
2005-09-05, 11:43 AM
Improvised weapon -4 to hit, No proficency -4 to hit, 10 ft range increments -2/range..

So since we're already flying at 65 feet just to avoid the fear radius, thats a -18 to hit.

Actually, that's incorrect. Quote from the System Reference Document:


Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.

Therefore, there's a TOTAL of -4 penalty for an improvised weapon. It doesn't stack with a further -4 for non-proficiency, since use of the improvised weapon already counts AS non-proficiency.

The Big T. will also have a +3 attack modifier on that thrown boulder or tree because of its DEX. And since it's the Magical Beast subtype, it gets a +48 BAB because it has 48 hit dice. Do the math.

Premier
2005-09-05, 11:50 AM
In theory, no guarantee. But he's not exactly bright, so its iffy as to whether he's smart enough to throw stuff or not. Only one general type of animal throws stuff in the real world, so its hardly a given that Mr T is smart enough to.

All creatures of the "Animal" subtype have a maximum INT of 2. The Tarrasque is of a different subtype, and has an INT of 3, higher than what any natural animal could have. Therefore it's a relatively safe bet that it WOULD have the mental capacity to come up with the idea throwing things at the flying hurting things.


More to the point though- does he have appendages sufficiently hand -like to be able hold/scoop stuff for throwing, and are his limbs shaped and hinged properly to allow throwing?

Blame the new editions' rollplayer mentality for this problem. A page's worth of statistics and tables for every monster, but not a single damn sentence on what it actually LOOKS like. And based on the fact that you did raise the question, I assume the Monstrous Manual doesn't even have illustrations.

Well, just look at an illustriation from the old editions. They are properly shaped to pick up and throw things, no problems there.

Lysander
2005-09-05, 12:30 PM
You could kill this thing with two castings of wish.

First wish- All soil and rock beneath the Tarrasque in 1,000 feet in all directions flies directly upwards at a speed of 33.6 kilometers per second.

That's three times escape velocity so in a manner of moments the Tarrasque should be speeding off into space on the back of a recently made asteroid. As for the Tarrasque leaping off before it's too late, well I don't think it's likely. Even if it were strong enough to withstand the g's, which wouldn't surprise me, it'd still be flying upwards with no realistic way of slowing itself down before it enters orbit. Then it suffocates.

Second wish- Orbital Tarrasque dies.

P.S. Obviously this plan would cause some devestation, and leave a giant crater lake, but it'd probably be like an asteroid impact in reverse. It might mess up a city-cized area near the Tarrasque, but if it were out in the countryside that's a price most kingdoms would be willing to take. You'd want to cast it from a distance obviously or be blasted by a shockwave of air and earth.

Reptile
2005-09-05, 01:15 PM
All creatures of the "Animal" subtype have a maximum INT of 2. The Tarrasque is of a different subtype, and has an INT of 3, higher than what any natural animal could have. Therefore it's a relatively safe bet that it WOULD have the mental capacity to come up with the idea throwing things at the flying hurting things.


Maybe, maybe not. After all, the Tarrasque's stat block doesn't list any ranged attacks...maybe the DM could give it an Int check to think of it. 3 is still not a lot of Int.

Also, recall that a thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments (http://d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#rangeIncrement). I'm not sure what the increment is for "boulder thrown by the Tarrasque" (for a human throwing random objects it's 10'--the Tarrasque might have more though). It might be possible for the fliers to stay out of range, particularly if the spell range is Long.



Blame the new editions' rollplayer mentality for this problem. A page's worth of statistics and tables for every monster, but not a single damn sentence on what it actually LOOKS like.

The 3.5 MM gives at least a brief physical description of every monster. Granted, it's not too detailed, but there's almost always a picture to back it up. The three-sentence-long physical description of the Tarrasque describes a huge biped that carries itself leaning forward, so it's at least conceivable that it might be capable of throwing something. (A quadruped would have a much tougher time.)


And based on the fact that you did raise the question, I assume the Monstrous Manual doesn't even have illustrations.

Well, just look at an illustriation from the old editions. They are properly shaped to pick up and throw things, no problems there.

The Monster Manual (notice the name change) has illustrations for virtually all of the monsters.
The 3.5 picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DnDtarrasque.gif

Rigeld
2005-09-05, 01:23 PM
Actually, that's incorrect. Quote from the System Reference Document:


Therefore, there's a TOTAL of -4 penalty for an improvised weapon. It doesn't stack with a further -4 for non-proficiency, since use of the improvised weapon already counts AS non-proficiency.

The Big T. will also have a +3 attack modifier on that thrown boulder or tree because of its DEX. And since it's the Magical Beast subtype, it gets a +48 BAB because it has 48 hit dice. Do the math.


Meh.. so +48, -10 out to range 50. And we're outside range 60 anyway.. Yes, thrown weapons are awesome for Mr. T.

Reptile
2005-09-05, 01:37 PM
First wish- All soil and rock beneath the Tarrasque in 1,000 feet in all directions flies directly upwards at a speed of 33.6 kilometers per second.


As a DM I'd rule that this is beyond the usual capacities of Wish, and twist this to not do what you want.

This is a very powerful effect--heck, it's much more powerful than an earthquake (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm), and consider that a Wish can't even do that. In fact, this effect seems comparable to--possibly better than--several epic spells (http://d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm), even some epic ritual (http://d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/raiseIsland.htm) spells (http://d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/verdigrisTsunami.htm) (note the casting times and number of casters required to do those last two!)

And in any case, if the Tarrasque thinks to jump off before the atmosphere gets too thin, it can shrug off 20d6 falling damage easily.

Douglas
2005-09-05, 02:00 PM
Get Pun-pun the Mighty Kobold (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) to knock the Tarrasque several thousand into the negatives with one punch :o :P. Not that any DM would ever actually allow this build into his campaign, but by a strict reading of the rules it seems legal, and it only requires level 12.

Rigeld
2005-09-05, 02:45 PM
Get Pun-pun the Mighty Kobold (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) to knock the Tarrasque several thousand into the negatives with one punch :o :P. Not that any DM would ever actually allow this build into his campaign, but by a strict reading of the rules it seems legal, and it only requires level 12.

And not only that, Pun-pun can cast wish as an SLA by himself. win-win!

NEO|Phyte
2005-09-05, 04:12 PM
Get Pun-pun the Mighty Kobold (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) to knock the Tarrasque several thousand into the negatives with one punch :o :P. *Not that any DM would ever actually allow this build into his campaign, but by a strict reading of the rules it seems legal, and it only requires level 12.
i think my jaw just burrowed its way down to china

ccelizic
2005-09-05, 06:43 PM
Maybe, maybe not. *After all, the Tarrasque's stat block doesn't list any ranged attacks...maybe the DM could give it an Int check to think of it. *3 is still not a lot of Int

I know for a fact monkeys gorillas and the like will throw things. *They are not listed as having a ranged attack of course. *But it'd be a thrown object. *Of course, for a gm to figure out how much damage a thrown cow would deal, would be a pain in the ass. *Mind you, any such improvised weapons would be unbalanced. *I honestly believe throwing things if you have prehensile apendages is just natural inborn intuition, it is the most basic of means of nailing something that's away from you. *Now, using weaponry specifically designed to be thrown, and an atlatl, that requires brains. *But this thing is more intellegent then a monkey, give it some credit.

I had a messed up mental image of how to deal with a T, and mind you, this is totally ludricous so I'm not suggesting this as a real idea, but it's so cartoonish I had to share it.

Imagine a single enchanter (or schmoe with UMD trainedup) laying out a line of bait for Mr T. *What sort of bait? *Sides of beef, polymorphed to colossal proportions, using polymorph any object. *I presume, the tarrasque in his usual "eat anything you can" mode will just greedily eat up the line of bait.

You line out the beef in a line luring him gradually over to the scaffolding. *Yes, it'd be a monstrously large bit of construction, all sorts of wood piled up in a large bit of work, capable of housing a tarrasque. *It has but one task, suspsend the mound of earth over the tarrasque.

When the tarrasque is under the stone, it would be at this point someone who'd be immunized to fear would spam dispel magic on the mound of earth, dispelling the polymorph any object upon it, and restoring it to the form of a mountain. *It would be at this time that the escape caster would use his prepared action to fire off a teleportation of some sort to get them out before the mountain clobbers them.

The mountain would naturally break the scaffolding before breaking the beast, then I suppose you'd need that ever so important wish to make sure the dern beast stays down.

OF course this is not a truly serious plan, a GM at any moment could make the beast get bored after x sides of inflated beef and run off to devour more interesting things. *But the trap was so Wily Coyote in construction I HAD to bring up. *It was a matter of principle.

I recall a discussion elsewhere about one of those in Eberron, it was mentioned that one of those in Sharn would be like a godzilla movie.

VariaVespasa
2005-09-05, 07:14 PM
Actually I raised the question because I dont have the 3.5 books to look at, or easy access to them. I played 3.5 for maybe 2 months (during which I had access) recently till I quit that game due to the DM indulging in his usual "my npcs are all uber pirate/ninja/thieves and you can never catch or kill them without enough firepower to level a small city, and even if you do, I'll twist and manipulate things so you're forced to negotiate so my npc doesnt die" tricks.

Aaaaanyways, the linked picture someone posted certainly shows hands capable of holding/scooping. The hinging of the limbs is somewhat more questionable. I doubt very much that it has enough mobility in those "arms" to throw like a man, let alone enough practice using them like that to be any good at it, but it can quite likely manage some variety of crude throwing. I probably would give it an extra -4 due to not just improvised weapon, but also improvised attack technique. In other words, the tarrasque throws like a girl. :P It likely has extra problems due to overall shape trying to throw straight up too. On throwing ranges, its strong and large enough that I'd probably either increase its range increments roughly in proportion to its size, or increase the number of range increments it gets in proportion to its size. Actually, the most elegant method might be based on the latter- Double its range increments to 20 feet, and up the max number of increments to 20 or 25. This lets it throw stuff quite far, as befits its strength, but also means its losing accuracy fast as befits its lack of experience with throwing, and poorly hinged limbs for throwing. I'd probably give it a +4 or 6 on its missiles for their (likely) large size too since its one thing to dodge aside a foot or two to avoid a 1 inch wide dart, or twist so it glances off your armor, its another to have to try to move 3-5 feet to avoid a large boulder, clump of dirt, flying horse, etc, and your armor deflecting that is out of the question. For throwing straight up I'd either halve the size of its range increments back down to 10 feet, or it give it a -6 to -10 penalty, depending on whether you mind its attackers being able to try to stay out of range by staying directly above it or not (10 foot increments if you dont mind, the -6 to -10 penalty if you do). So if it starts with a natural bab of 48, it will range from +54 at point blank (less than 20 feet), to only +4 at max range of 500 feet. Thats all my own house ruling of course, but it seems reasonable enough. Your mileage may vary.

Dont forget, if someone is being a smarty-pants and staying *just* above its vertical throwing range, that it might jump upwards the 60-some feet its capable of and throw at the top of its jump...

*Hugs*
Varia

Spuddly
2005-09-05, 11:24 PM
How far/high could a Tarrasque move in a running jump? I imagine he'd snag a flying wizard like a dog snags a frisbee....

I'd love to see the face on the player of the character who thought he was hovering out of range when Big T takes him down with a run and a skip and a hop and chomp.

Rigeld
2005-09-06, 09:06 AM
How far/high could a Tarrasque move in a running jump? I imagine he'd snag a flying wizard like a dog snags a frisbee....

I'd love to see the face on the player of the character who thought he was hovering out of range when Big T takes him down with a run and a skip and a hop and chomp.

Considering he has a 128 foot vertical reach just standing there (table here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) I would hover at an angle in front of him.

As far as his jump, he doesnt get that far off the ground; only 4' up and 17' forward without rolling (45 str = 17 str bonus). He does weigh 130 tons after all.

Lysander
2005-09-06, 10:59 AM
Here's an idea that while it wouldn't kill the Tarrasque outright it'd make it a lot easier to kill.

Find some sort of giant creature that's large enough that even the Tarrasque has trouble fitting it into it's mouth. It doesn't have to be skilled at fighting, or even under your command necessarily. Make sure it has a low fortitude save, maybe by infecting it with a few diseases in advance. Get it in front of the Tarrasque somehow. When the Tarrasque opens it's mouth fully have a flying spellcaster zip in as it bites down and cast Temporal Stasis on the creature. It instantly becomes invulnerable, and the Tarrasque can't spit it out since it's mouth is fully open and it's teeth are hooked into the creature. This lasts forever. The gives the Tarrasque a significant handicap for the rest of your battle, and even if you lose it'll starve to death eventually.

Rigeld
2005-09-06, 11:22 AM
Here's an idea that while it wouldn't kill the Tarrasque outright it'd make it a lot easier to kill.

Find some sort of giant creature that's large enough that even the Tarrasque has trouble fitting it into it's mouth. It doesn't have to be skilled at fighting, or even under your command necessarily. Make sure it has a low fortitude save, maybe by infecting it with a few diseases in advance. Get it in front of the Tarrasque somehow. When the Tarrasque opens it's mouth fully have a flying spellcaster zip in as it bites down and cast Temporal Stasis on the creature. It instantly becomes invulnerable, and the Tarrasque can't spit it out since it's mouth is fully open and it's teeth are hooked into the creature. This lasts forever. The gives the Tarrasque a significant handicap for the rest of your battle, and even if you lose it'll starve to death eventually.

Somehow find a Huge creature, make it have a low fort save, get Mr T to eat it (the easiest part), get missed by the AoOs from moving in by Mr T and The Eaten, by both again for casting the spell, and then hope that The Eaten fails his save...

By the time you can cast the 8th level spell, youve got a lot better ways to take Mr T out.

Grandmaster_Fish
2005-09-06, 11:15 PM
1-Using a rich lvl 19, hire some epic party to do it....

2-Call it a meanie and tell it to go away, Mr. T is very sensitive so he will start crying and go sulk in his cave.

3-Eat it.(don't ask how, just do it)

Lysander
2005-09-07, 12:45 AM
Rigeld-

I'd assume the Tarrasque would be too busy trying to eat something larger than its mouth to give it too good a chance to notice you, especially if you were invisible as well, and using some illusions to distract it simultaneously. The real question is whether it'd be worth your time...it's a lot of work, and some risk, but you have to admit it'd be pretty funny. The biggest downside is that the Tarrasuque gets really really angry and rampages until it starves, which would leave it plenty of time to do some serious damage. If you're ok with devestation on a mass scale for years to come, this plan works. I could envision a world that consists of nomadic peoples, traveling to avoid the Tarrasque and awaiting the promised day when it will starve and they can build cities again.

How long would it take the Tarrasque to starve to death anyway?

chrek
2005-09-07, 01:28 PM
I should have a decient answer for this by next monday.

Either that, or one hell of a story for the "Favorite character deaths" thread. My 5 member approx 19th level party will be going up against a Fiendish Tarasque this saturday, and I've been scheming for all I'm worth to find a way to give my little goblin Ranger/Rogue/fighter/dervish some way to use smite evil.

Rigeld
2005-09-07, 01:34 PM
I should have a decient answer for this by next monday.

Either that, or one hell of a story for the "Favorite character deaths" thread. My 5 member approx 19th level party will be going up against a Fiendish Tarasque this saturday, and I've been scheming for all I'm worth to find a way to give my little goblin Ranger/Rogue/fighter/dervish some way to use smite evil.

You should be absle to use some examples from this thread to help you out :)

If you want, PM me the other classes in your group, and I can offer suggestions (or pm a link to your char sheet and ill offer suggestions for just you.. how are you smiting evil with that build?)

chrek
2005-09-07, 01:52 PM
Well, Unfortunitally I don't have a link to my char sheet. I'm actually using pencil and paper to keep track of it (And I don't have it at work) So I can't really send you a link, and I'm pretty sure that if I told you what our party consisted of you would be too busy rolling on the floor laughing yourself silly to have much to say for help.

Oh, and I don't actually smite evil with this build, but I would like to. Unfortunitally it's not looking good for that since the Tarasque was reveiled last week, and we didn't get enough XP to level...not that a single level in anything would make a huge difference.

At this point, I'm thinking that we're going to try banishment. we might retreat, have our spell caster just prepare banishment and try that until it works...barring that, our meatsheilds are going to have their title abbreviated as they go toe to toe, while I try to sneak attack the SOB.

Rigeld
2005-09-07, 05:08 PM
Well, Unfortunitally I don't have a link to my char sheet. I'm actually using pencil and paper to keep track of it (And I don't have it at work) So I can't really send you a link, and I'm pretty sure that if I told you what our party consisted of you would be too busy rolling on the floor laughing yourself silly to have much to say for help.

Oh, and I don't actually smite evil with this build, but I would like to. Unfortunitally it's not looking good for that since the Tarasque was reveiled last week, and we didn't get enough XP to level...not that a single level in anything would make a huge difference.

At this point, I'm thinking that we're going to try banishment. we might retreat, have our spell caster just prepare banishment and try that until it works...barring that, our meatsheilds are going to have their title abbreviated as they go toe to toe, while I try to sneak attack the SOB.


And lose. Unless youre epic, you cant do the 868 damage needed to knock Mr T down (especially with the fiendish template) before he mows you down if you go toe to toe. If, however, you decide to fly and nuke him from above, and use spelss/other ranged attacks/tricks to do damage to him, or some of the other tricks in this thread (Banishment wont work, Mr T isnt extraplanar, plus his SR and will save..) you might win.

Lasombra
2005-09-08, 07:27 AM
you could get enough power together (redwizards...) to balefull polymorph the tarrasque into something harmless, then walk off and ignore it... the baleful polymorphs effect is permanent. ;D

damn thats cheese for you...

Rigeld
2005-09-08, 09:29 AM
you could get enough power together (redwizards...) to balefull polymorph the tarrasque into something harmless, then walk off and ignore it... the baleful polymorphs effect is permanent. ;D

damn thats cheese for you...

I'm unfamiliar with red wizards; what book are they in? (presuming one of the forgotten realms books) First, get past his SR 32, then he has to fail a will (not too hard) and then fail another one, or he can still swallow huge creatures, regenerate, has the uber carapace, and instill fear. Even as a bunny rabbit.

Lasombra
2005-09-08, 09:38 AM
Red Wizard is a prestige class in... I can tremember which book, its either a Dungeon masters guide(one or two), or the Complete arcane, at a cetain level, they can sacrifice spell slots to another member of the group to make their spells more powerful for a limited amount of time,

Otherwise, enough spell focuses and spell penetrations should work :-/ barely.

chrek
2005-09-08, 10:06 AM
I've got your baleful polymorph build right here. 10 wizards. 9 just barely high enough level to cast the spell, and one deciently high level PC, let's say 16th level with a 20 int. All the spell casters have cooperative spell, and they all cast Baleful polymorph on the lowest init from the group.

This means Mr. T will have a 10(base)+5(spell level)+5(highest relevant modifier)+2(first additional spell caster)+8(Each additional spell caster)=30 DC to make 10 times. And The caster check for spell resitiance for each spell is 25. Assuming for average die rolls 6 or 7 of those spells will go through. And while there's only a 25% chance that he will fail any one of his will saves, it's still lot better than it should be, considering the average level of that party is almost 10th level.

Lasombra
2005-09-08, 10:13 AM
thats more or less what i figured. :) me and my DM worked out that a party of level 14 characters should be able to take a tarrasque... maybe not cast that wish spell mind, but thay could always get a wish scroll made up to finish it properly.

Or you could make a cursed item just for doing the tarrasque over :D loop it round one of its horn and run away giggling.

ccelizic
2005-09-08, 01:25 PM
A balefully polymorphed tarrasque has an interesting feature. *You see, a duration of permenant (as opposed to instantaneous) means that the victim is constantly affected by the magic of a permenant duration. *This means if someone at a later date casts dispel magic they can reverse that spell.

So, lets suppose you make Big T a gerbil. *And lets suppose you keep the gerbil as a pet, feed it well, keep it happy, if it bombs it's second save, it probably won't even mind it's new lot in life, might even be happier with nobody trying to kill it anymore.

So, then, lets say you come to the tower of the big bad naughty so and so and for some reason you can't crack it. *You know there's no civilization for miles outside of nasty goblinoids and whatnot, so you just put the gerbil at the base, get a safe distance away, and dispel the baleful polymorph, thus enacting the first Tarrasque relocation program.

Varia: While you would see a tarrasque throwing items in a game I'd run, you'd still be at a much more fair chance vs it in the air.

You say it looks awkward, and the fact of the matter yes, and it's already accounted for, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm as you can see, for all it's HD it's dex is only 16. *It's melee attack with a bite is +57, it's ranged attack mod is going to be +43, it's also going to suffer a -4 mod because it's throwing weird things so it's going to be rolling a +39, as opposed to a +57 full round attack. *

It's going to be one attack per round, which is much better then 6 attacks per round. *For the damage of such a weapon I'd step the damage of a thrown stone up to collosal, so d4 med d6 large d8 huge 2d6 gargantuan 3d6 colossal. *Now 3d6+8 (half str since it's a "light" weapon) damage may be a bit intense, but there's a few things people on an air-raid can do to improve their chances. *Then agian, that attack is about the same as bombing your reflex save vs a wizard who fired off level 5 fireball, and only one guy is getting hit.

A) Invisibility - *It's hard to pinpoint an invisible flying PC, a gm might even give them a circumstance bonus in regards to keeping quiet. *A tarrasque has a scent ability, but that'll only tell him a general direction to attack in, not a specific square, and even if he guesses the right square it's a 50% miss chance. *It's also a move action to sniff someone out, meaning big T cannot pick up a cow, sniff for a PC and attack in the same turn. *Also, if the mage is clever they might try to get some sort of wind control spell into the equation to put them downwind from the Tarrasque, halving the scent range from 60 to 30. *Mind you, the trick is to do an action that requires you to say something first, THEN move. *That way the tarrasque has to keep guessing at your exact location. *

B) carry potent potions, a potion of cure serious wounds should nullify a sound smack from Big T

C) Bring air support, supplement one of your combatants with a bard packing a few helpful wands, he can throw in a little extra acid damage from an acid arrow wand, or throw in some healing spells, or even just inspire courage. *Mind you, anytime the bard sings he turns himself into a target that's easy to single out with a listen check. *Big T still has a 50% miss chance vs that bard if he can get a good location Via listen but the bard'll start attracting debris.

The whole idea is that a party getting creative with an air raid isn't going to get an uncontested kill, and if they did they should get their experience fro mthat kill docked. *It's right in the DMG, if a fight is easier then it should be, then the party doesn't get as much exp. *But, once Big T does throw stuff, he still makes flyers work for their kill, it'd certainly make the fight more interesting then just a bunch attack/damage rolls from the players. *Though, even though he CAN throw stuff he's at a severe disadvantage fighting airborn targets he cannot reach. *He can peg'em but he's much better of going for a full round attack where he can attempt to use his swallow whole ability.

Bear in mind, the first few rounds the airraid starts, if Big T has things to gobble up still on the ground he'll probably ignore those buzzing gnats gathering in the air a few rounds, not fully comprehending the dire threat they pose. *After a couple rounds and the damage is suddenly starting to actually hurt him, the thought is going to click in his head "Wait a moment, these guys are really hurting me, maybe I should do something about it." *And then he might start making an effort at trying to get them out of the air. *The thing about roleplaying big T while his primary goal is to just eat, he's got a tough guy attitude. *It probably doens't cross his mind often that something might be able to take him down, so he probably won't take any PC's seriously the first few rounds until they manage to hit him with something hard. *If they happen to be the nearest edible things though, he will prioritize them, but mainly because he thinks adventurers are good if you need more iron in your diet.

In a way, if you are roleplaying a tarrasque as a GM, you can try to think of yourself almost like a rather intellegent cat, and the adventurer's are mice. Either way, big T will be rather surprised if anything manages to suddenly become a threat, though unlike a cat, his slow speed makes fleeing impossible.

ghostrunner
2005-09-08, 04:21 PM
A balefully polymorphed tarrasque has an interesting feature. You see, a duration of permenant (as opposed to instantaneous) means that the victim is constantly affected by the magic of a permenant duration. This means if someone at a later date casts dispel magic they can reverse that spell.

So, lets suppose you make Big T a gerbil. And lets suppose you keep the gerbil as a pet, feed it well, keep it happy, if it bombs it's second save, it probably won't even mind it's new lot in life, might even be happier with nobody trying to kill it anymore.

So, then, lets say you come to the tower of the big bad naughty so and so and for some reason you can't crack it. You know there's no civilization for miles outside of nasty goblinoids and whatnot, so you just put the gerbil at the base, get a safe distance away, and dispel the baleful polymorph, thus enacting the first Tarrasque relocation program.

Or better yet, use Rich's suppressable spell feat (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0016.html). Then you can turn your gerbil into a tarrasque at will!

chrek
2005-09-08, 04:59 PM
Oh, and Red wizards are in both the Forgotten Realms Handbook and the 3.5 dmg, with a warning that they were created for the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting and may not be suitible for other campaigns (does not play well with others)

So, I'm thinking one round in the T's stomach, one round out healing, rinse, repeat until dead. (me or it) Of course our party just lost our cleric, so this whole thing might not be near as fun or interesting as I would normally hope.

SpiderBrigade
2005-09-08, 09:59 PM
Or better yet, use Rich's suppressable spell feat. Then you can turn your gerbil into a tarrasque at will!
Go for the eyes!

Oh wait, that's a hamster.

Lasombra
2005-09-09, 05:45 AM
another way could be to planeshift it somewhere else, it probably wont be any more of a nuisance in one of the celestial or daemonic planes... now i understand why my DM hates me.