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DarthArminius
2012-07-07, 08:33 AM
My experience with Dumbledore and Harry Potter is. . . limited. Yes, I have seen Order of the Pheonix on the movie screen though. And the duel between Voldemort and Dumbledore was impressive. However, I think that Yoda stands a decent chance at winning a duel. I think that what we need is a v.s Thread with Yoda fighting against Dumbledore.

So let's give some quick statistics. . . Dumbledore has lightning, fire, water at his command, possibly Crucio, and Avada Kedavra. Yoda has Force Lightning, the Light Saber, and Force Push. Well, in addition, he's probably a difficult target to hit with magical spells as well. So, I'm not sure where the advantage lies between these two heavy hitters of their respective universes.

Or we could assume that, perhaps Yoda has the Jedi Temple, worth of 1,000 Jedi. . . and Dumbledore has 1,000 wizards/witches/Aurors, whatever. Who would win in a battle such as this?

So I'm asking for this vs Thread :
1) Who wins, Yoda or Dumbledore in a duel
2) Jedi or wizards/witches in a battle?

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 08:42 AM
Key issue: Jedi/Wizards as they're actually portrayed in the movies, or Jedi/Wizards with intelligent use of their potential abilities (as argued by the Plagrounders)?

GnomeGninjas
2012-07-07, 08:44 AM
Yoda doesn't use lightening, unless you have seen something I haven't. Dumbledore would try to disarm Yoda with Expeliarmus and then take Yoda's lightsaber. Then he would try to talk things out peacefully.

DarthArminius
2012-07-07, 08:44 AM
Key issue: Jedi/Wizards as they're actually portrayed in the movies, or Jedi/Wizards with intelligent use of their potential abilities (as argued by the Plagrounders)?

Uh, oh gee you just opened a can of worms.

Uh, both ?


Yoda doesn't use lightening, unless you have seen something I haven't. Dumbledore would try to disarm Yoda with Expeliarmus and then take Yoda's lightsaber. Then he would try to talk things out peacefully.

Have you ever seen Revenge of the Sith?

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 08:56 AM
In Revenge of the Sith, he reflects the Force Lightning back at Palpatine. He doesn't use it himself. So no, "Yoda doesn't use lightning" is right.

It would depend on what universes were used. Just Movies for Yoda and Movies/Books for Dumbledore (since they don't pull off any extra shenanigans and can basically be referenced freely between each other), then this match would belong to the Wizard. Really, too many tricks to get out of range and make it impossible for even someone like Yoda to do about it. Pretty much like a Warblade with a Brilliant Energy Weapon vs a Wizard in D&D.

If we include the Expanded Universe for Star Wars.... I don't know, honestly. That **** gets insane.

DarthArminius
2012-07-07, 09:00 AM
In Revenge of the Sith, he reflects the Force Lightning back at Palpatine. He doesn't use it himself. So no, "Yoda doesn't use lightning" is right.

It would depend on what universes were used. Just Movies for Yoda and Movies/Books for Dumbledore (since they don't pull off any extra shenanigans and can basically be referenced freely between each other), then this match would belong to the Wizard. Really, too many tricks to get out of range and make it impossible for even someone like Yoda to do about it. Pretty much like a Warblade with a Brilliant Energy Weapon vs a Wizard in D&D.

If we include the Expanded Universe for Star Wars.... I don't know, honestly. That **** gets insane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJI7xEK2aXM

If Yoda's only reflecting it against Sidious, he's obviously exerting himself for some reason when the camera closes up to his face.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 09:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJI7xEK2aXM

If Yoda's only reflecting it against Sidious, he's obviously exerting himself for some reason when the camera closes up to his face.

Well, I imagine reflecting Force Lighting isn't exactly easy, so he probably would be exerting himself.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 09:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJI7xEK2aXM

If Yoda's only reflecting it against Sidious, he's obviously exerting himself for some reason when the camera closes up to his face.

I knew what scene you referencing before you even linked it.


Well, I imagine reflecting Force Lighting isn't exactly easy, so he probably would be exerting himself.

Exactly.

Yes, he's exerting himself. Most Jedi wouldn't have been able to make the saves to avoid being freaking -fried- by that, even with their Light Sabers. Yoda's doing it bare handedly. He's redirrecting it with the force, but he's not using it himself. Else why Force Push when you could Force Cook, at least without something to push to.

Force Lightning is an [Evil] Power. Yoda's a Paragon Battle Cleric. A bit out of his area, even as an Epic level Master.

Just to repeat it to emphasise it, he's catching the lightning in his hands to keep it from killing him, not firing lightning back from the energy balls. He's keeping it from killing him. When it zooms in on him, that's his "alright, screw this" look, where he overtakes Palpatine and reflects all that energy back at him.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-07, 09:07 AM
Is Force Lightning really evil?
I mean I know in the EU it is told as being evil. If you just go by the movies themselves though, is it said anywhere that using the Lightning is inheriently evil? I am curious, could any Force user use said ability?

DarthArminius
2012-07-07, 09:08 AM
Is Force Lightning really evil?
I mean I know in the EU it is told as being evil. If you just go by the movies themselves though, is it said anywhere that using the Lightning is inheriently evil? I am curious, could any Force user use said ability?

I suppose the previous two gentlemen could be correct, but it appears by Occam's Razor that I'm right. When you see two wrestlers wrestling eachother, do you assume that, "He's pushing back!!" or "He's not pushing back, he's reflecting the enemy's kinetic energy against him!"

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-07, 09:10 AM
This seems relevant to this thread. (http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/death-battle-luke-skywalker-vs-harry-potter)

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 09:10 AM
Is Force Lightning really evil?
I mean I know in the EU it is told as being evil. If you just go by the movies themselves though, is it said anywhere that using the Lightning is inheriently evil? I am curious, could any Force user use said ability?

In the expanded universe, other Jedi do actually come to use it, because it -is- Lightning, and Lightning is awesome. But it wasn't something the core Jedi practiced. In the movies, only Sith have ever used it.


I suppose the previous two gentlemen could be correct, but it appears by Occam's Razor that I'm right. When you see two wrestlers wrestling eachother, do you assume that, "He's pushing back!!" or "He's not pushing back, he's reflecting the enemy's kinetic energy against him!"

That depends. Is the other wrestler using the exact same technique to push his enemy back, or is he resisting the first one's hold, and about to flip him, indeed using his own power against him? 'cause there is a huge difference in overpowering your enemy with similar means, and using your training to make their strengths hinder them.


This seems relevant to this thread. (http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/death-battle-luke-skywalker-vs-harry-potter)

Cool.

DarthArminius
2012-07-07, 09:11 AM
In the expanded universe, other Jedi do actually come to use it, because it -is- Lightning, and Lightning is awesome. But it wasn't something the core Jedi practiced. In the movies, only Sith have ever used it.

I still don't get it. :/
Did Lucas ever say something about that scene?


That depends. Is the other wrestler using the exact same technique to push his enemy back, or is he resisting the first one's hold, and about to flip him, indeed using his own power against him? 'cause there is a huge difference in overpowering your enemy with similar means, and using your training to make their strengths hinder them.

That's exactly my point. It doesn't look like Yoda is reflecting lightning back at Sidious. It looks like he's "forcing" it back.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 09:13 AM
I still don't get it. :/
Did Lucas ever say something about that scene?

I don't know, but many others have. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning)

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 09:14 AM
I suppose the previous two gentlemen could be correct, but it appears by Occam's Razor that I'm right. When you see two wrestlers wrestling eachother, do you assume that, "He's pushing back!!" or "He's not pushing back, he's reflecting the enemy's kinetic energy against him!"

Wrestlers use physics, not Space Magic. Occam's Razor only works when we know the rules by which the situation is governed.

DarthArminius
2012-07-07, 09:16 AM
Force lightning was a well known Force ability, most often used by practitioners of the dark side of the Force, especially the Sith.

This is what the Wookiepedia says about it.
Edit-
It says "Most often" and then goes on to say that even Luke Skywalker eventually learned how to use it. "Most often" doesn't necessarily lead to "Always". :/

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 09:18 AM
This is what the Wookiepedia says about it.

Indeed. It also goes on to note how some strong Jedi, like Yoda, as well as Mace Windu and Obi Wan, rather than seeming to have the ability to use it as well, are notable in defending themselves against it, including reflecting it.


Edit-
It says "Most often" and then goes on to say that even Luke Skywalker eventually learned how to use it. "Most often" doesn't necessarily lead to "Always". :/

Yes, in the expanded universe, years after Yoda's been kicking it as a Force Ghost. After the Jedi Order has gone through a couple of revisions. Never said Yoda could do it.

DarthArminius
2012-07-07, 09:21 AM
Indeed. It also goes on to note how some strong Jedi, like Yoda, as well as Mace Windu and Obi Wan, rather than seeming to have the ability to use it as well, are notable in defending themselves against it, including reflecting it.



Yes, in the expanded universe, years after Yoda's been kicking it as a Force Ghost. After the Jedi Order has gone through a couple of revisions. Never said Yoda could do it.

On the other hand, the entry with Yoda's use of Force Lightning, whether through direct use or just reflecting it, appears to be completely neutral in whether he used it or not. Suggesting that Yoda could have channeled Force Lightning directly or not. I think it was supposed to be left nebulous in the film on purpose.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 09:26 AM
On the other hand, the entry with Yoda's use of Force Lightning, whether through direct use or just reflecting it, appears to be completely neutral in whether he used it or not. Suggesting that Yoda could have channeled Force Lightning directly or not. I think it was supposed to be left nebulous in the film on purpose.


Force lightning could also be absorbed and redirected by a Jedi of sufficient skill; Yoda demonstrated this ability by both deflecting and absorbing the dark power during battles with Count Dooku and Emperor Palpatine, using nothing more than his own two hands.

He also attempted the technique on Obi-Wan Kenobi, who was able to block it with his lightsaber, and Master Yoda, who managed to reflect and dispel the energy with his bare hands.

What part of that is Neutral or Nebulous in his abilities?

Hell, there is a name (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Absorb) for what he did do! (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Deflection)

DarthArminius
2012-07-07, 09:28 AM
What part of that is Neutral or Nebulous in his abilities?

Hell, there is a name (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Absorb) for what he did do! (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Deflection)

Hmm okay. It's just that in Yoda's entry on Wookiepedia it only says he "handled" Force Lightning. Not that he deflected it or absorbed it. But I guess that he was just deflecting it with his hands, forever ruining one of the best Star Wars duels I've ever seen. :(

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 09:32 AM
Hmm okay. It's just that in Yoda's entry on Wookiepedia it only says he "handled" Force Lightning. Not that he deflected it or absorbed it. But I guess that he was just deflecting it with his hands, forever ruining one of the best Star Wars duels I've ever seen. :(

.... Ruined?

HE BLOCKED LIGHTNING WITH HIS -HANDS-, CHANNELED IT INTO BALLS, AND LAUNCHED IT BACK AT THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD IN EXISTANCE!

You have unreasonable standards.

Morty
2012-07-07, 09:34 AM
They'd both sit down and talk about how hard is to get through the Chosen One's thick skull and childish whining.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 09:37 AM
They'd both sit down and talk about how hard is to get through the Chosen One's thick skull and childish whining.

I need to re-read/watch both of their teachings, but I'm pretty sure they both are rather pathetic as teachers. Although at least Dumbledore gives you 7 years before you fight Satan for your final exam...

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 09:43 AM
I don't remember Luke being particularly whiny and childish, either, at least once he got off Tatooine. A bit rebellious when he ditched his training to go to Bespin, but that worked out pretty well in the end anyways. He was a lot older than Harry, though, so it balances out.

GnomeGninjas
2012-07-07, 09:44 AM
Dumbledore can teleport, he did so in the duel with Voldemort at the ministry as well a in other books just to travel around. Dumbledore can turn invisible, it was mentioned when people were confused about why he had James' invisiblity cloak, Dumbledore can transfigure Yoda into a small helpless animal or inanimate object, this hasn't been demonstrated in a book or movie to my knowledge but if Madeye could Dumbledore probably could.

Yoda can chock things up with a laser sword, Dumbledore can teleport away. Yoda can move things around with the force, Dumbledore can mimic this with summoning, banishing and hover charms. Yoda can say wise things, so can Dumbledore.

I think who wins is kind of obvious.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 09:49 AM
Dumbledore can teleport, he did so in the duel with Voldemort at the ministry as well a in other books just to travel around. Dumbledore can turn invisible, it was mentioned when people were confused about why he had James' invisiblity cloak, Dumbledore can transfigure Yoda into a small helpless animal or inanimate object, this hasn't been demonstrated in a book or movie to my knowledge but if Madeye could Dumbledore probably could.

Yoda can chock things up with a laser sword, Dumbledore can teleport away. Yoda can move things around with the force, Dumbledore can mimic this with summoning, banishing and hover charms. Yoda can say wise things, so can Dumbledore.

I think who wins is kind of obvious.

Yeah, as much as I'd +1 Yoda simply out of popularity, there's simply too many ways Dumbledore evens (at worse) or invalidates (on average) Yoda's abilities. It's like a Wizard vs a Warblade. One's awesome... the other's a freaking Wizard.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 10:29 AM
Yoda's strength has always been in his knowledge not in his pure combat might. There are other Jedi far better suited to that.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-07, 10:31 AM
No, in the Lore Yoda is the best dualest out there, even Mace Wasn't as good as him with a blade. He was the Wisest Jedi too.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 10:32 AM
No, in the Lore Yoda is the best dualest out there, even Mace Wasn't as good as him with a blade. He was the Wisest Jedi too.

I never considered dueling the whole combat might thing, just good in solo fighting against another in saber combat.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-07, 10:39 AM
When they say "Dualist" what they mean is, Good at fighting. Yoda is a master of many of the forms of Lightsaber combat.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 10:42 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJI7xEK2aXM

If Yoda's only reflecting it against Sidious, he's obviously exerting himself for some reason when the camera closes up to his face.

He's not using force lightning, same as he didn't in AotC, he's using the ability force deflection: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Deflection

If you look at his face I surmised, and this is purely a guess that Yoda may actually be tapping part of the dark side. At 3.38 min as he looks totally pissed off.


In the expanded universe, other Jedi do actually come to use it, because it -is- Lightning, and Lightning is awesome. But it wasn't something the core Jedi practiced. In the movies, only Sith have ever used it.

It's not force lightning in Eu though, it's called Electric Judgement.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment

Devonix
2012-07-07, 10:43 AM
I thought Yoda was only really a master in Form IV

Raimun
2012-07-07, 10:45 AM
Yoda. He has killer instinct.

Dumbledore doesn't.

You have to count in Yoda's speed and reflexes. Palpatine had that but Dumbledore doesn't.

Also, I think Yoda used some advanced version of Force Absorbation that allows the user to reflect accumulated energy back. Edit: No, wait, he used that against Dooku. Similar power.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 10:49 AM
Also, I think Yoda used some advanced version of Force Absorbation that allows the user to reflect accumulated energy back.

No just force deflection, if you look at the piccy on the link it even shows Yoda doing it.

Raimun
2012-07-07, 10:53 AM
No just force deflection, if you look at the piccy on the link it even shows Yoda doing it.

See this? (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tutaminis#Notable_uses_throughout_history)

He used absorbation in the previous movie and to my non-Jedi trained eyes, they looked the same at the first glance. :smallsmile:

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 11:21 AM
Yoda's strength has always been in his knowledge not in his pure combat might. There are other Jedi far better suited to that.

.... Name a single other Jedi that has even remotely been compared to beat Yoda in combat. Mace Windu and Palpatine -rivaled- him.


No, in the Lore Yoda is the best dualest out there, even Mace Wasn't as good as him with a blade. He was the Wisest Jedi too.

Yeah.


I never considered dueling the whole combat might thing, just good in solo fighting against another in saber combat.

Considering that he even has force powers to turn the tide of a War, I'd say General Grand Master Yoda has earned his reputation.


When they say "Dualist" what they mean is, Good at fighting. Yoda is a master of many of the forms of Lightsaber combat.

Indeed.


He's not using force lightning, same as he didn't in AotC, he's using the ability force deflection: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Deflection

If you look at his face I surmised, and this is purely a guess that Yoda may actually be tapping part of the dark side. At 3.38 min as he looks totally pissed off.

I'd assume that would be his Righteous Rage face... though if the Light Side of the Force doesn't even allow for that, then screw it. Otherwise, I agree.


It's not force lightning in Eu though, it's called Electric Judgement.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment

It was indirrectly mentioned in that novel, which seemed to be lucky to exist. The other main source of it was a PS1 Game, so I feel like I can question it's status in canon.

Then again, I don't really care either way. It's still Lightning, and it's still awesome.


I thought Yoda was only really a master in Form IV

Pretty sure the only ones who could argue against him are dead.


Yoda. He has killer instinct.

Dumbledore doesn't.

You have to count in Yoda's speed and reflexes. Palpatine had that but Dumbledore doesn't.

Also, I think Yoda used some advanced version of Force Absorbation that allows the user to reflect accumulated energy back. Edit: No, wait, he used that against Dooku. Similar power.

... I will give that Yoda's fast as heck. But I doubt Dumbledore lacks the ability to need to defeat his opponent when necesarry. The fight still seems a bit lopsided...


No just force deflection, if you look at the piccy on the link it even shows Yoda doing it.


See this? (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tutaminis#Notable_uses_throughout_history)

He used absorbation in the previous movie and to my non-Jedi trained eyes, they looked the same at the first glance. :smallsmile:

It's Force Deflection when he's not using his Light Saber. It's Tutaminis when it is sent back at it's target or disappated by use of the Force. The two are normally combined enough to make this -INCREDIBLY- fine nit picking, though.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 11:21 AM
See this? (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tutaminis#Notable_uses_throughout_history)

He used absorbation in the previous movie and to my non-Jedi trained eyes, they looked the same at the first glance. :smallsmile:

Yup, they do look the same but Yoda clearly knew he could beat Dooku although he knew it would not be easy. With Sidious I think Yoda was unsure if he could prevail - which may be why he said to Luke what he did in TESB; and that with surprise being gone could obviously never return to challenge Palpy.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 11:26 AM
It was indirrectly mentioned in that novel, which seemed to be lucky to exist.

You mean the Vong one? Where Luke zaps that whateverhisnameis?

The only thing people are missing is whether Aveda Kvara could be argued as being energy and therefore controllable using force deflection / absorption.

Fan
2012-07-07, 11:31 AM
Yoda can block spells faster than Dumbledore could possibly put them out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjJjgtU5Okc), light sabers deflect energy, and Yoda can absorb things like Expelliarmus (Force Push has been absorbed by that same line of powers, a similar enough function.).

Aside from that, Yoda deflects bolts that are a replacement for modern age ballistics, this puts him at bullet time level speed without force speed.

I'd give this to Yoda bare handed.

Dumbledore is not physically firm, even with teleportation, Yoda has a degree of battle precognition he just can't counter, Yoda would force pull the wand, and be done.

"Strong in the ways of the force you are, but not that strong."

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 11:32 AM
You mean the Vong one? Where Luke zaps that whateverhisnameis?

I was trying to reference the book to which Electric Judgement was first mentioned in this thread, although I honestly don't know anything about any of this expanded universe stuff.


The only thing people are missing is whether Aveda Kvara could be argued as being energy and therefore controllable using force deflection / absorption.

.... Yoda vs Dumbledore in a semi honorable duel, possibly with a Non Lethal Lightsaber? I can see happening.

Dumbledore casting an Unforgivable Curse, especially one to which he is vehemotly opposed to (at least last time I checked)? I think not.

Though I agree, how well Magic, the Force, and Science translate makes this rather... messy.


Yoda can block spells faster than Dumbledore could possibly put them out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjJjgtU5Okc),

Whether or not the cartoons are even canon is up to debate.


light sabers deflect energy, and Yoda can absorb things like Expelliarmus (Force Push has been absorbed by that same line of powers, a similar enough function.).

And whether or not spells translate into energy is also up to debate.


Aside from that, Yoda deflects bolts that are a replacement for modern age ballistics, this puts him at bullet time level speed without force speed.

Not that I don't doubt he didn't do that, but where, most likely Clone Wars or one of the Core Trilogy, in the movies does he do that? I'd like to see it for my own amusement. Probably looks awesome as hell.


Dumbledore is not physically firm, even with teleportation, Yoda has a degree of battle precognition he just can't counter, Yoda would force pull the wand, and be done.

It doesn't seem like it would be out of place for Big D to have precognition either, nor that he couldn't cast spells or have some type of contingency for being wandless.

Then again, I admit to pretty much knowing nothing about both series compared to anyone that does, so my vote pretty much is worthless.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 11:36 AM
what about Cin Drallig
the jedi battle master during the prequel era. He's supposed to be the best pure swordsman in the order.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 11:39 AM
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjJjgtU5Okc"]

WTF was that abomination that I just watched? Yoda in there bears no resemblence to either films or TCW so feats-wise i think they are outliers.


Yoda can block spells faster than Dumbledore could possibly put them out

How do you know that?


light sabers deflect energy

Some spells don't seem to be visible and you only see the end result so saying he can just block them is conjecture, at best.


Yoda can absorb things like Expelliarmus

How do you know this? Is there any evidence to say he can?


Force Push has been absorbed by that same line of powers, a similar enough function.)

When exactly?


Aside from that, Yoda deflects bolts that are a replacement for modern age ballistics, this puts him at bullet time level speed without force speed.

Hahahaha....no! Yoda is not a bullet-timer and there is absolutely no evidence to show that he is. In fact about the only bullet-timing seen is in the Dark Empire series.


Dumbledore is not physically firm, even with teleportation, Yoda has a degree of battle precognition he just can't counter, Yoda would force pull the wand, and be done.

That may be possible.....

Just out of curiosity have you ever seen the list of HP spells? As they outnumber the uses of the force we've ever seen in movies, or books.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_spells

Devonix
2012-07-07, 11:54 AM
Fan was posting from an episode of the original Clone wars series, it was created by lucas films in association with Cartoon network to show what was going on between Episode 2 and lead Directly into Episode 3

The last episode of the series was a direct lead in to the opening scene of Revenge of the Sith.

Though with the new clone wars series it's been relegated to AU status.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 12:01 PM
Fan was posting from an episode of the original Clone wars series, it was created by lucas films in association with Cartoon network to show what was going on between Episode 2 and lead Directly into Episode 3

The last episode of the series was a direct lead in to the opening scene of Revenge of the Sith.

Though with the new clone wars series it's been relegated to AU status.

Exactly. Figuring out what all is expanded and what isn't... in both universes, really, is half the fight.

If Magic does dirrectly Translate to Force, and Force to Magic, then my vote flips completely. Yoda is no less wise and intelligent than Dumbledore, and if the two elements are compatable, I see no victor in sight on the mystic front.

However, Dumbledore is an old man. Yoda is a mobile buzz-saw.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 12:03 PM
Exactly. Figuring out what all is expanded and what isn't... in both universes, really, is half the fight.

If Magic does dirrectly Translate to Force, and Force to Magic, then my vote flips completely. Yoda is no less wise and intelligent than Dumbledore, and if the two elements are compatable, I see no victor in sight on the mystic front.

However, Dumbledore is an old man. Yoda is a mobile buzz-saw.

See the thing about Star Wars, and it is something I really like is that there is: Force, Alchemy, Sorcery, and outright Magic.

I dislike the 200 gigaton wank stuff, but that's me and has nothing to do with the debate at all ;)

Eldariel
2012-07-07, 12:08 PM
Yeah, as much as I'd +1 Yoda simply out of popularity, there's simply too many ways Dumbledore evens (at worse) or invalidates (on average) Yoda's abilities. It's like a Wizard vs a Warblade. One's awesome... the other's a freaking Wizard.

Hexes as used in Harry Potter books/movies tho are extremely trivial to avoid, block or...well, do anything about. They're fairly worthless as offensive tools, all things considered; a 19th century rifle is way faster and more precise.

I wouldn't be surprised if Yoda could just reflect them the same way he reflected Force Lightning. Invisibility is fairly useless against a jedi due to precognition; if a jedi can fight just fine with his eyes closed I don't see what use removing the ability to visually sense the wizard would do.


Really, the question is whether Dumbledore can use teleportation is fast enough to deal with Force Speed from Yoda; I don't think Yoda could use offensive force maneuvers beyond just throwing objects.

I'm fairly sure Dumbledore couldn't hurt Yoda but whether Yoda could hurt Dumbledore I'm not sure about.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-07, 12:31 PM
Hexes as used in Harry Potter books/movies tho are extremely trivial to avoid, block or...well, do anything about. They're fairly worthless as offensive tools, all things considered; a 19th century rifle is way faster and more precise.

Which is why most weapons and technology are stuck in the middle ages for D&D. Gun Powder and it's upgrades makes offensive Magic and almost all other forms of combat completely and utterly worthless.

's also why the optimized Wizard never uses dirrect damage except as a last ditch chance. They get summons and other affects to screw the enemy over, at the latest. Though I'm not sure how intimidated Yoda would be by such things.

Wardog
2012-07-07, 12:39 PM
Aside from that, Yoda deflects bolts that are a replacement for modern age ballistics, this puts him at bullet time level speed without force speed.


That doesn't follow.

Just because people in SW use blasters rather than firearms (usually (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower)) doesn't mean that blasters are better than firearms in every respect.

Judging by the movies, blasters are inferior in both rate of fire and projectile velocity, so just because a Jedi can dodge/block the former doesn't mean they have "bullet-time" reactions.

If blasters have less recoil, larger magazines, and lighter and more interchangable "ammo", then I can easily see them displacing firearms. Especially as the vast majority of uses won't be shooting at Jedi.

(To use a comparison with a different 'verse: which is better, a bolter or a lasgun? If you need to keep an army of thousands or millions supplied for months or years, it's definitely the lasgun).

Reverent-One
2012-07-07, 12:45 PM
Judging by the movies, blasters are inferior in both rate of fire and projectile velocity, so just because a Jedi can dodge/block the former doesn't mean they have "bullet-time" reactions.


Depends on which scenes you watch. In the movies, a blaster bolt's speed is directly related to the distance it needs to travel.

Fan
2012-07-07, 01:00 PM
WTF was that abomination that I just watched? Yoda in there bears no resemblence to either films or TCW so feats-wise i think they are outliers.



How do you know that?



Some spells don't seem to be visible and you only see the end result so saying he can just block them is conjecture, at best.



How do you know this? Is there any evidence to say he can?



When exactly?



Hahahaha....no! Yoda is not a bullet-timer and there is absolutely no evidence to show that he is. In fact about the only bullet-timing seen is in the Dark Empire series.



That may be possible.....

Just out of curiosity have you ever seen the list of HP spells? As they outnumber the uses of the force we've ever seen in movies, or books.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_spells

Do..

Do you even know what EU star wars entails?

All Jedi by definition are bullet timers, assuming blasters aren't las weaponry and thus focused light shaped and focused by Tiabana Gas. With the highest tier force usage we ascend to tiers the entire Harry Potter verse couldn't deal with.

Like, seriously, this isn't even a fight. Yoda is capable of keeping three trained members, capable of deflecting blaster bolts (Which are easily confirmed post sonic. There's no way you can argue Blaster Bolts are slower than bullets with any shred of legitimacy to your argument. Seriously, just read the Encyclopedia guide on Blasters.)

For the quote-



She had attended a lecture about battle techniques given by Master Yoda earlier this year, and the memory of it came back to her now. Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.
"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."
And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council—Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all—had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him.



These are all people who were able to fight in the clone wars, and it's stated multiple times that Yoda is superior in speed and lightsaber skill to Mace Windu himself, who is capable of: This. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A07WNupEXk)


Also The Clone Wars (Animated.) Cartoon is considered T-Canon, and are thus above novellizations (C Canon), in the status of applicability.


Also on Blasters:


In particle-beam based blasters, like the E-11 used by stormtroopers, a small amount of high-energy gas moved from the Heter valve to the chamber commonly called the XCiter. In the XCiter chamber, the gas was energized by the power pack, then passed into the actuating blaster module, which, when assisted by the components in the barrel, processed the now extremely high-energy gas into a compressed beam of intense energy particles, coupled with intense light, which generated the deadly high-energy particle beam fired from most blasters. In these blasters, the combination of super hot laser-light and a compressed bolt of intense energy particles formed the deadly bolt.

I've argued against Star Wars time, and time, and time again. I am by no means a cheerleader for them. I know my enemy however, and I know that it's certainly faster than Harry Potter.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 01:07 PM
Do you even know what EU star wars entails?

Which is why it is below G & T Canon.


All Jedi by definition are bullet timers, assuming blasters aren't las weaponry and thus focused light shaped and focused by Tiabana Gas.

Again, it is not shown that way in the books as IIRC don't the Mando's, when written by Traviss (hack...spit) capable of taking them down. As point of fact it is not true in the movies and as such this contradiction means we go with movies.


Like, seriously, this isn't even a fight. Yoda is capable of keeping three trained members, capable of deflecting blaster bolts (Which are easily confirmed post sonic.

Rubbish, and contradicted in the movies.


There's no way you can argue Blaster Bolts are slower than bullets with any shred of legitimacy to your argument. Seriously, just read the Encyclopedia guide on Blasters.)

Utter hogwash and claptrap, we can see the blaster bolts.


Also The Clone Wars (Animated.) Cartoon is considered T-Canon, and are thus above novellizations (C Canon), in the status of applicability.

And is contradicted by the movies.....Yoda has never shown the ability to do that is any of the 6 movies, of which he appeared in 4.


I've argued against Star Wars time, and time, and time again. I am by no means a cheerleader for them. I know my enemy however, and I know that it's certainly faster than Harry Potter.

Not really. Did you the HP movie where Death Eater nearly destroyed that bridge in London, or the fight in the Ministry where they would fire off a spell and go all wispy and fly somewhere else. Yoda cannot match that, at all.

Personally I think Yoda and Dumbly would get on like a house on fire, and would likely show the other vrious tricks and maybe even teach the other.

Fan
2012-07-07, 01:15 PM
Which is why it is below G & T Canon.



Again, it is not shown that way in the books as IIRC don't the Mando's, when written by Traviss (hack...spit) capable of taking them down. As point of fact it is not true in the movies and as such this contradiction means we go with movies.

[QUOTE=Fan;13514353]Like, seriously, this isn't even a fight. Yoda is capable of keeping three trained members, capable of deflecting blaster bolts (Which are easily confirmed post sonic.



Utter hogwash and claptrap, we can see blaster bolts - but not bullets.




And is contradicted by the movies.....Yoda has never shown the ability to do that is any of the 6 movies, of which he appeared in 4.

It's not contradicted because I have the comic novelizations of the Count Dooku and Yoda fight right here displaying Faster than Eye fighting:



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1848720-new_picture__9_.jpg



Quite obviously, with after images. Though when you count the number of after images it puts only barely in the machs, but again, it puts it well above Dumbledore's average human sidestepping skills.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 01:26 PM
It's not contradicted because I have the comic novelizations of the Count Dooku and Yoda fight right here displaying Faster than Eye fighting:

It's contradicted by AotC quite obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnFe6wk3gDI&feature=related

Nowhere is bullet-timing shown. Thus anything else is contradicted and can be ignored under Lucasfilm canon.

KnightDisciple
2012-07-07, 01:30 PM
.... Name a single other Jedi that has even remotely been compared to beat Yoda in combat. Mace Windu and Palpatine -rivaled- him.

Going by the Revenge of the Sith novel, Obi-Wan Kenobi (at that time in the series). Mace himself told Kenobi that he was the only one who could beat Grievous, not only because he had the best defense (to counter crazy 4 armed lightsaber cyborg man), but because he wasn't compensating for a weakness. Yoda used Form 4 to compensate for his small size (by moving around like Kermit on Speed), Mace and Anakin used their forms (7 and 5 respectively) to help channel and leash their aggressive tendencies. I don't recall if Dooku was mentioned, but I'd say he compensated for his reduced physical ability with Form 2's focus on skill and precision.

Honestly, I personally would put Yoda, Mace, Kenobi, Anakin, Palpatine, and possibly Qui-Gon in the same general area of skill (which is to say, really good).
The thing is, there's 7 major forms and a bunch of sub-forms of lightsaber combat. Add in to that that several of them incorporate terrain into things, and you're left with the fact that it's hard to peg who's absolutely better than another.

Qui-Gon lost because he fought in basically the worst possible environment for his form; he had no room to move around properly (he was doing better on Tatooine).

Palpatine was actually losing to Mace because Mace's style is especially good at killing Sith; Vaa'pad (I think I spelled that right) establishes a sort of "superconducting loop" when fighting heavy Dark Side use, that basically lets the master of the form (Mace) control the pace of the fight. If Anakin hadn't come in, I think Mace would have just killed Palpatine.

Palps and Yoda were more evenly matched; each was not very agile without the force (both old dudes!), and each was roughly equal in Force power and skill, as well as bladework. I think Palps won because he was basically in his element (you get the idea the whole Galaxy is kind of rippling with the Dark Side, what with all the dead Jedi and all), and because he had a touch more stamina than Yoda. Also, I think Yoda sensed there was backup inbound for Palps.

Anakin and Obi-Wan were pretty clearly evenly matched in blade skill; Force-wise, Anakin had more power but Kenobi had more refined skill, I'd say. Kenobi won due to using the terrain better, combined with Anakin's pride-filled misjudgment (if he could have jumped higher, he'd have won).

Dooku and Yoda were, again, evenly matched, but I think the varied terrain favored Yoda. Force-wise I think Yoda had the edge, but he had to deal with protecting Anakin and Kenobi.


Point is, if you stop and look at all those fights, and consider other possible fights between these groups, it's not a stretch to say they're all masters of their forms, and that by default are pretty evenly matched. Thus, the winner comes down to how exactly their fighting styles and overall skill/power mixes match up, as well as the terrain they're fighting in.



As far as the original topic goes....Hm.

I would give the edge to Dumbledore, due to possessing the Elder Wand and having amassed a large array of spells over his life. Assuming it was a fight to the death, Yoda would win if he caught Dumbles by surprise, but lose if it was a protracted fight. The Force powers Yoda has used offensively amount to, essentially, TK, which isn't an Out of Context problem for Dumbles. A lot of wizard spells, though, would be that for Yoda. Yoda's physical skill would be a mild surprise, but he's not the Flash or anything, he can still be seen with the naked eye, so Dumbles can still track him and fire.

Fan
2012-07-07, 01:32 PM
It's contradicted by AotC quite obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnFe6wk3gDI&feature=related

Nowhere is bullet-timing shown. Thus anything else is contradicted and can be ignored under Lucasfilm canon.

Yeah.. that's not how Lucas Film Canon works.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 01:34 PM
Yeah.. that's not how Lucas Film Canon works.

Wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_wars_canon



G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

T-canon[4] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[5]

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

Here is the relevent bit: G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction.

So yes, we can exclude those feats as erroneous.

Fan
2012-07-07, 01:38 PM
Wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_wars_canon



Here is the relevent bit: G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction.

So yes, we can exclude those feats as erroneous.

That's not what a contradiction means story wise.

Power levels are not story essential.

A lack of a use of a tool shown in later novelizations is not a contradiction.

Neither is a equally canon novelization of the Attack of the Clones movie.. which is also considered G canon.

Forum Explorer
2012-07-07, 01:39 PM
I don't remember Luke being particularly whiny and childish, either, at least once he got off Tatooine. A bit rebellious when he ditched his training to go to Bespin, but that worked out pretty well in the end anyways. He was a lot older than Harry, though, so it balances out.

I think he means Anakin.



.... Yoda vs Dumbledore in a semi honorable duel, possibly with a Non Lethal Lightsaber? I can see happening.

Dumbledore casting an Unforgivable Curse, especially one to which he is vehemotly opposed to (at least last time I checked)? I think not.

Though I agree, how well Magic, the Force, and Science translate makes this rather... messy.



Whether or not the cartoons are even canon is up to debate.

The cartoons are considered canon though the level of canon varies.



WTF was that abomination that I just watched? Yoda in there bears no resemblence to either films or TCW so feats-wise i think they are outliers.



How do you know that?



Some spells don't seem to be visible and you only see the end result so saying he can just block them is conjecture, at best.



How do you know this? Is there any evidence to say he can?



When exactly?



Hahahaha....no! Yoda is not a bullet-timer and there is absolutely no evidence to show that he is. In fact about the only bullet-timing seen is in the Dark Empire series.





I'm pretty sure that the Jedi are considered bullet timers considering they are able to deflect multiple blaster bolts back into their opponents. Even if the blaster bolts are slower then bullets they are still faster then most combat spells we see in the HP universe.

I think Fan is referring to the old thread of Darth Vader vs Lord Voldemort.

And firing blaster bolts is much much faster then casting a spell. I don't see how you can argue that at all. At a very rough estimate I would say you can get three blaster shots off per spell.


Honestly I think Yoda has this. Precog and speed will allow Yoda to avoid nearly all of Dumbledore's spells while Yoda could quickly close. The Lightsaber also ensure that Yoda only needs to get a single hit off to win. Finally the teleportation in HP as described doesn't seem like something that can be easily spammed in a fight so I don't think Dumbledore can really use it to evade.

Wardog
2012-07-07, 01:40 PM
[QUOTE=Rogerd;13514377]
It's not contradicted because I have the comic novelizations of the Count Dooku and Yoda fight right here displaying Faster than Eye fighting:



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1848720-new_picture__9_.jpg



Quite obviously, with after images. Though when you count the number of after images it puts only barely in the machs, but again, it puts it well above Dumbledore's average human sidestepping skills.

Wait, what?

How can you calculate speed and timing from artistic conventions in a comic panel?


The AOTC and ROTS came out after The Matrix. If Lucas thought the Jedi were capable of fighting in bullet-time, the technology existed to show it. If he subsequently decided they ought to be able to do that, he could have shown it in either of the Clone Wars animated series.

But he didn't.

The Jedi are superhumanly fast and agile, and can sense things before they happen. But I haven't seen anything in even the most OTT EU material to suggest they can move faster than the eye can see or do Matrix-style bulltet-time.

Fan
2012-07-07, 01:43 PM
You deflecting dozens of blaster bolts in less than a second moving between each individual bolt to deflect it doesn't translate into bullet timing movements? This is only proven because the lightsaber deflects it in the direction the block swing comes from, meaning you have to know to come at it from the right way.

Hmmm...

Maybe.. I've been doing physics wrong, but something tells me that even hitting ARROWS at that speed would make you a bullet timer.

And we can all agree Blaster's are faster than arrows.

Also you can calculate it from canon height figures, the dimensions of a light saber, and then you take the average speed of a sword swing, and then do the math on the amount of speed would have to be in the swing to allow it to blur between each point to block it after the swing had been made, and that's how you do applied math.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 01:48 PM
That's not what a contradiction means story wise.

You're positing they are bullet-timers, video evidence shows they're not.


Power levels are not story essential.

Stop handwaving it, nowhere in films or TCW, top-canon are EU power levels shown.


A lack of a use of a tool shown in later novelizations is not a contradiction.

Stop being spurious.


Neither is a equally canon novelization of the Attack of the Clones movie.. which is also considered G canon.

Unfortunately the film does not show bullet-timing and IIRC neither does the book. Accept it, 'cos its true.


I'm pretty sure that the Jedi are considered bullet timers considering they are able to deflect multiple blaster bolts back into their opponents. Even if the blaster bolts are slower then bullets they are still faster then most combat spells we see in the HP universe.

Not in series or films they're not.


And firing blaster bolts is much much faster then casting a spell. I don't see how you can argue that at all. At a very rough estimate I would say you can get three blaster shots off per spell.

This looks damn site faster than any blaster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K4PAXgBxyQ

In addition Yoda cannot compete with the speed they can apparate and fly.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 01:51 PM
You deflecting dozens of blaster bolts in less than a second moving between each individual bolt to deflect it doesn't translate into bullet timing movements? This is only proven because the lightsaber deflects it in the direction the block swing comes from, meaning you have to know to come at it from the right way.

Prove where they do that any movie.....NOW!

As quite frankly you're talking utter tripe.


Maybe.. I've been doing physics wrong, but something tells me that even hitting ARROWS at that speed would make you a bullet timer.

Do arrows move as fast as bullets? Nope, this has got to be the most retarded thing I've heard all day.


And we can all agree Blaster's are faster than arrows.

Arguable considering how fast we see them move.


Also you can calculate it from canon height figures, the dimensions of a light saber, and then you take the average speed of a sword swing, and then do the math on the amount of speed would have to be in the swing to allow it to blur between each point to block it after the swing had been made, and that's how you do applied math.

Hahahahahahahah!

Fan
2012-07-07, 01:52 PM
You're positing they are bullet-timers, video evidence shows they're not.



Stop handwaving it, nowhere in films or TCW, top-canon are EU power levels shown.



Stop being spurious.



Unfortunately the film does not show bullet-timing and IIRC neither does the book. Accept it, 'cos its true.



Not in series or films they're not.



This looks damn site faster than any blaster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K4PAXgBxyQ

In addition Yoda cannot compete with the speed they can apparate and fly.

You're not understanding what a contradiction is.

Just because someone is not shown doing something, does not mean it is a contradiction, it means they didn't do it then.

They "should" means nothing, "Well if they could" means nothing, that's speculation, comic scans are not.

If anyone's being disingenuous here. It's not me.

Alright, I'll show you someone moving faster than bullets here in The Phantom Menance, both users are slower than Yoda repeatedly stated in canon:




http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/StarWars/ForceSpeed-0.jpg

Time: 0 seconds before they start.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/StarWars/ForceSpeed-1.jpg

0.04 seconds, force speed is initiated, notice how in frame they are translucent.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/StarWars/ForceSpeed-2.jpg

Time: 0.08 seconds. It's hard to see because they're translucent in Force-speed, but judging by Obi-Wan's saber, he's covered roughly 1 metre. To accelerate from standing start to cover 1 metre in 0.04 seconds requires acceleration of 1250 m/s^2, or more than one hundred ****ing G's at a minimum. Even if the location of his sabre is misleading and he only covered 1/2 metre in that time, he would still need to accelerate at more than 60 G's.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/StarWars/ForceSpeed-3.jpg

Time: 0.12 seconds. Obi-Wan has covered another metre, which indicates that he's topped out at around 20-30 m/s (45-68 mph). That's ****ing automobile highway speed, pal. And we're not just talking about moving his arm or bending his hips; we're talking about accelerating his entire body.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/StarWars/ForceSpeed-5.jpg

Time: 0.21 seconds. Notice how Qui-Gon is quite obviously transclucent in this scene; he is only visible as a shadow. Obi-Wan is almost completely invisible; if it weren't for his sabre, you wouldn't even know he's there. Now we know the ANH novelization wasn't exaggerating when it said he could become wraith-like.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 01:52 PM
You're not understanding what a contradiction is.

Just because someone is not shown doing something, does not mean it is a contradiction, it means they didn't do it then.

They "should" means nothing, "Well if they could" means nothing, that's speculation, comic scans are not.

If anyone's being disingenuous here. It's not me.

{Scrubbed}

GnomeGninjas
2012-07-07, 01:55 PM
I've reconsidered, Yoda would win. He would take over a star destroyer and ram it into earth at light speed. He would eject before the collision. The shock wave would get him but first it would get the people one Earth (Dumbledore included). Assuming them both dying means who ever dies second wins than Yoda would win.

Nekura
2012-07-07, 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by Fan

There's no way you can argue Blaster Bolts are slower than bullets with any shred of legitimacy to your argument. Seriously, just read the Encyclopedia guide on Blasters.)




Utter hogwash and claptrap, we can see the blaster bolts.



You can also see tracer bullets are you saying they aren’t as fast as bullets? You know what is pathetically slow compared to bullets? Harry Potter spells. Wizards can dodge them, summon objects in their way, conjure/transfigure stuff to block their path etc. Wizards are not said to be faster then normal humans Jedi however are.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by Fan

There's no way you can argue Blaster Bolts are slower than bullets with any shred of legitimacy to your argument. Seriously, just read the Encyclopedia guide on Blasters.)

Of course you can, you can see them. Jeez. And the argument is based on EU sources and contradicted by the movies.


You can also see tracer bullets are you saying they aren’t as fast as bullets?

Nice try, as on the grounds when tracer rounds are shown it is with the perceptual angle to be able to see them, i.e. from long distance, usually taken from off-centre or behind where they're being fired from.


You know what is pathetically slow compared to bullets? Harry Potter spells. Wizards can dodge them, summon objects in their way, conjure/transfigure stuff to block their path etc. Wizards are not said to be faster then normal humans Jedi however are.

Some are pathetically slow, very true. But not all. Which is part of my arguement that some spells as seen when Harry fight Voldy in the cemetary were likely deflectable by a ligthsaber, others not.

Fan
2012-07-07, 02:01 PM
{Scrubbed}.

I did, with the power of math, and a frame by frame examination of The Phantom Menace.

Forum Explorer
2012-07-07, 02:04 PM
Not in series or films they're not.



This looks damn site faster than any blaster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K4PAXgBxyQ

In addition Yoda cannot compete with the speed they can apparate and fly.

I didn't bother to check that link because I'm assuming you misunderstood me. I wasn't referring to how fast the blaster bolt was moving but how fast you can shoot.



Prove where they do that any movie.....NOW!



Sure in Episode 1 Obi-Wan deflects blaster bolts when blinded by knock-out or poison gas back into the droids. And this is when he was still technically an apprentice. It's pretty much the first scene of the movie. Throughout the entire movie we see them deflecting blaster bolts pretty much effortlessly.

Bullets are generally hard, in comparison to blaster bolts, to see because they don't generate light and are very small.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 02:14 PM
I did, with the power of math, and a frame by frame examination of The Phantom Menace.

Goody for you, unfortunately it is another one of your spurious claims, without evidence and not backed up by video. Shame that.

EDIT: the only time they moved really fast was using force speed, a power only seen once. But using C-canon from the RPG's it is only really used for IIRC.

Fan
2012-07-07, 02:15 PM
Explain to me how it's not backed up by video?

I provided the calc's, I provided the frame by frame explanation.

Please, explain to me what flaw there was in that.

Was my math off? Did I somehow add a digit?

Please. Enlighten me.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/StarWars/ForceSpeed-0.jpg

Time: 0 seconds before they start.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/StarWars/ForceSpeed-1.jpg

0.04 seconds, force speed is initiated, notice how in frame they are translucent.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/StarWars/ForceSpeed-2.jpg

Time: 0.08 seconds. It's hard to see because they're translucent in Force-speed, but judging by Obi-Wan's saber, he's covered roughly 1 metre. To accelerate from standing start to cover 1 metre in 0.04 seconds requires acceleration of 1250 m/s^2, or more than one hundred ****ing G's at a minimum. Even if the location of his sabre is misleading and he only covered 1/2 metre in that time, he would still need to accelerate at more than 60 G's.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/StarWars/ForceSpeed-3.jpg

Time: 0.12 seconds. Obi-Wan has covered another metre, which indicates that he's topped out at around 20-30 m/s (45-68 mph). That's ****ing automobile highway speed, pal. And we're not just talking about moving his arm or bending his hips; we're talking about accelerating his entire body.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/StarWars/ForceSpeed-5.jpg

Time: 0.21 seconds. Notice how Qui-Gon is quite obviously transclucent in this scene; he is only visible as a shadow. Obi-Wan is almost completely invisible; if it weren't for his sabre, you wouldn't even know he's there. Now we know the ANH novelization wasn't exaggerating when it said he could become wraith-like.



Here's a repost of it, please, posit to me the ways in which I have been wrong.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 02:17 PM
Explain to me how it's not backed up by video?

I provided the calc's, I provided the frame by frame explanation.

Please, explain to me what flaw there was in that.

Was my math off? Did I somehow add a digit?

Please. Enlighten me.

What cals, where?!?!

*looks around and cannot see them*

DarthArminius
2012-07-07, 02:18 PM
He reposted them.:)

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 02:20 PM
He reposted them.:)

Aaagh....I see them.

That's not really calcs just visual images. Now there is no accounting for the tranlucency. Yet strangely in the next scene you see them blur down the corridor.

So yes, its fast, bullet-timing, well it's doubtful. That's only demonstrated in EU matieral really, e.g. Dark Empire.

Fan
2012-07-07, 02:22 PM
Those are calc's buddy.

I provided proof. Your turn to provide proof, and calcs, that Dumbledore is fast enough to react to that.

Also, that's not EU that I posted. That's Phantom Menace.

Nekura
2012-07-07, 02:25 PM
Nice try, as on the grounds when tracer rounds are shown it is with the perceptual angle to be able to see them, i.e. from long distance, usually taken from off-centre or behind where they're being fired from.



What are you trying to say? Tracer rounds were designed so the shooter could see where his bullets are going not that they could only be seen from certain angles. Even if tracer's can't be seen from certain angles do we know what angles blasters can be seen from? Are you saying seeing the movie of blasters we see something different from what we would see in a simular movie with tracers that automatically make blasters slower then bullets? Tracers are as fast as bullets you can just see them better because they give off light. Blasters most likely give of more light and are larger then bullets so just being able to see them (from odd angles mind I dont think we have seen a first person veiw of blasters being fired at a person in the movies) doesn't make them slower.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 02:26 PM
Those are calc's buddy.

I provided proof. Your turn to provide proof, and calcs, that Dumbledore is fast enough to react to that.

Also, that's not EU that I posted. That's Phantom Menace.

The full scene is here.

Yes they moved fast, don't get me wrong but never seen during any fight sequences at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K4PAXgBxyQ

Now on the grounds that they can fly, and all other high-jinks Yoda is at a fundamental disadvantage.

Fan
2012-07-07, 02:28 PM
The full scene is here.

Yes they moved fast, don't get me wrong.

Alright? That's a concession then?

Because as far as I understand car's are still considered an effective method of transport in Harry Potter, and the whole flying / apparition thing had to avoid cars in a cramped bridge environment and had difficulty doing as such.

Flying is only good for running away against Yoda, fling spells from far away gives Yoda more than enough time to not be in place.

None of the space they move even remotely puts them at anything resembling people running on air.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 02:29 PM
What are you trying to say? Tracer rounds were designed so the shooter could see where his bullets are going not that they could only be seen from certain angles. Even if tracer's can't be seen from certain angles do we know what angles blasters can be seen from? Are you saying seeing the movie of blasters we see something different from what we would see in a simular movie with tracers that automatically make blasters slower then bullets? Tracers are as fast as bullets you can just see them better because they give off light. Blasters most likely give of more light and are larger then bullets so just being able to see them (from odd angles mind I dont think we have seen a first person veiw of blasters being fired at a person in the movies) doesn't make them slower.

Yes it does as we see Jedi's having droids fire blasters directly at them on several ocassions, not just from odd angles.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 02:33 PM
Alright? That's a concession then?

that they move fast, yes. Of bullet-timing - nope.


Because as far as I understand car's are still considered an effective method of transport in Harry Potter, and the whole flying / apparition thing had to avoid cars in a cramped bridge environment and had difficulty doing as such.

No, actually cars and other muggle objects are not seen as effective transport as wizards cannot understand them.


Flying is only good for running away against Yoda, fling spells from far away gives Yoda more than enough time to not be in place.

Tactically yuo're dead wrong, in fact Obi actually says that to Anakin in RotS - "Don't try it, I have the high ground."


None of the space they move even remotely puts them at anything resembling people running on air.

You're dead wrong, again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo-U5iOinM8

EDIT: Now without the books we don't know if that was a spell that destabilised the bridge, or their speed. Either way it is beyond Yoda's ability - unfortunately. At least without EU sources.

Fan
2012-07-07, 02:33 PM
Yes it does as we see Jedi's having droids fire blasters directly at them on several ocassions, not just from odd angles.

The scans posted also show a blaster bolt being fired and hitting the opposing wall in .21 seconds, assuming a fair distance of 10-15 meters puts it at bullet speeds easily.

EDIT: That's.. still only basic highway speed considering they're airborne and don't have obstacles.

You're not proving anything.

Also "The High Ground", is an infamous moment of Plot Induced Stupidity. A force push, or pull, or you know, any use of force tk totally nullifies that advantage.

Xondoure
2012-07-07, 02:35 PM
This seems relevant to this thread. (http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/death-battle-luke-skywalker-vs-harry-potter)

Meh, Sectumsempra is serious dark magic and the wounds never fully heal. Sure Malfoy recovered, but have you seen magical healing techniques? Waaaaaay above anything done by Jedi. So I'd call that a tie, and that's not even including all the other spells that could have put Luke off balance.

Nekura
2012-07-07, 02:38 PM
The full scene is here.

Yes they moved fast, don't get me wrong but never seen during any fight sequences at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K4PAXgBxyQ

Now on the grounds that they can fly, and all other high-jinks Yoda is at a fundamental disadvantage.

That wierd flying thing Bellatrix is doing? Yeah is that supposed to be cannon now? She did nothing like that in the books what spell/ability is that?

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 02:40 PM
The scans posted also show a blaster bolt being fired and hitting the opposing wall in .21 seconds, assuming a fair distance of 10-15 meters puts it at bullet speeds easily.

Dude, Jedi have precognition, and secondly you do not know the distance to both jedi looking at the film, and it is pure guesswork, sorry but it is.


EDIT: That's.. still only basic highway speed considering they're airborne and don't have obstacles.

Prove it.


You're not proving anything.

You did look at the film of them flying at high speed at various heights with great agility and virtually destroying a bridge.


Also "The High Ground", is an infamous moment of Plot Induced Stupidity. A force push, or pull, or you know, any use of force tk totally nullifies that advantage.

PIS is irrelevent, it happened. Additionally you're wrong, yet again. high ground is a basic military tactic.

KnightDisciple
2012-07-07, 02:40 PM
Meh, Sectumsempra is serious dark magic and the wounds never fully heal. Sure Malfoy recovered, but have you seen magical healing techniques? Waaaaaay above anything done by Jedi. So I'd call that a tie, and that's not even including all the other spells that could have put Luke off balance.
Of course this thread's premise has 2 much more experienced characters involved, on both ends.
That said, not sure Dumbles would use Sectumsempra. Doesn't seem his style.


That wierd flying thing Bellatrix is doing? Yeah is that supposed to be cannon now? She did nothing like that in the books what spell/ability is that?
It's supposed to be psuedo-apparation. The flying ball of light or darkness is their apparting form, but apparently in the movies they can control it to a degree.

Fan
2012-07-07, 02:44 PM
Meh, Sectumsempra is serious dark magic and the wounds never fully heal. Sure Malfoy recovered, but have you seen magical healing techniques? Waaaaaay above anything done by Jedi. So I'd call that a tie, and that's not even including all the other spells that could have put Luke off balance.

EU Luke can do crazy things.

I suggest you read this. (http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=532457&page=2)

Also how is assuming a small distance of 5-10 meters guess work? That's easily within the range of fairness, I can measure out the Droideka's canon length and then individually count the pixel space if you'd like.

Also again, it's not MY duty to prove that your side is fast. I am challenging your claim of them being that fast as I don't see anything that shows them being THAT fast in there.

It is your turn to do calc's again, not mine. I do not have to answer my own question.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 02:48 PM
EU Luke can do crazy things.

I suggest you read this. (http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=532457&page=2)

Also how is assuming a small distance of 5-10 meters guess work? That's easily within the range of fairness, I can measure out the Droideka's canon length and then individually count the pixel space if you'd like.

Becuase you're assuming. The fact of it is at NO point is this power ever used again.


Also again, it's not MY duty to prove that your side is fast. I am challenging your claim of them being that fast as I don't see anything that shows them being THAT fast in there.

You mean flying inbetween vehicles, across rooftops and down a sidealley. You did what that clip?


It is your turn to do calc's again, not mine. I do not have to answer my own question.

You cannot honestly calc speed from the HP clip, and it would be dishonest to do so. Only to state that wizards have the high ground, flight, and it therefore gives them a distinct edge in combat.

Fan
2012-07-07, 02:50 PM
Becuase you're assuming. The fact of it is at NO point is this power ever used again.

You're really gonna make me find every use of Force Speed in the movies?

I can do it again but, you're literally just pulling at straws here, there's no debunking of my argument here it's "Prove it again.", which is by NO means a valid argument.

The burden of proof for YOUR side of the argument lies on YOU.

I don't need to prove anything again, I've proven my side of the argument. I'll measure out the average width of the human body and count out the pixels Obi wan's body takes up, and then I'll measure it out to get the actual distance, but believe me, it's probably not that different.

And yes you can, get the frame by frames of the movie, and do it.

I did it for Phantom Menace, you gotta hold yourself to your own standards expecting me to get movie calcs.

Two way street.

Nekura
2012-07-07, 02:50 PM
Of course this thread's premise has 2 much more experienced characters involved, on both ends.
That said, not sure Dumbles would use Sectumsempra. Doesn't seem his style.


It's supposed to be psuedo-apparation. The flying ball of light or darkness is their apparting form, but apparently in the movies they can control it to a degree.

Yeah so not cannon. There was no psuedo-apparation in the books. Apparation was fast teleportation by turning on your heal and the only sensation you had doing it was being squeezed through a tube. Bella flying around all over the place and casting spells during it is all kinds of wrong.

GnomeGninjas
2012-07-07, 02:55 PM
Of course this thread's premise has 2 much more experienced characters involved, on both ends.
That said, not sure Dumbles would use Sectumsempra. Doesn't seem his style.


I agree. I don't think Dumbledore even knows Sectumsempra. I think the only peole who know it are Snape and Harry. Though I think transfigurations might work just as well in the unblockable aspect. When Madeye hits Drako with one to turn him into a ferret it seems instantaniuos, no one ever misses the object they are turning into a barrier to block the Harry Potter spell, infact the Transfiguration hits before the Avada Kadavra and manages to block it, another point for the don't miss thing is that Neville Longbottom never accidentaly turns his desk into something when he his trying to hit the teacup on the desk.

Fan
2012-07-07, 02:58 PM
That's by no means instant, considering Abra Kadabera is by far sub sonic considering the only time it catches people is when they aren't looking.

The transformation of Draco took more time than it would take to be out of the Wizard's focus, and it's merely an invisible direction of energy, and if it's not, then it's an effect centered on the target and is avoidable by not being in the same spot.

Something Yoda is quite adept at doing.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 02:58 PM
You're really gonna make me find every use of Force Speed in the movies?

Best of luck, they don't exist.


I can do it again but, you're literally just pulling at straws here, there's no debunking of my argument here it's "Prove it again.", which is by NO means a valid argument.

Rubbish.


The burden of proof for YOUR side of the argument lies on YOU.

Watch the clip. Wizards....now repeat after me....WIZARDS CAN FLY! It's not difficult.


And yes you can, get the frame by frames of the movie, and do it.

Rubbish. We don't know the distance travelled, they are not flying on a flat plane, etc etc.

Fan
2012-07-07, 03:00 PM
You're literally just saying Rubbish to the fact that I have already proved my point.

Saying that's no good, does not in fact, make it no good.

You can measure this out, I had to take the measurements of the characters, and do a million other anatomy related things to find out the correct numbers for my calc's.

It is in fact, a two way street, and given Harry Potter is a book's original series, and that feat wasn't replicated in books it is time for your mantra of "Non canon" for the flying in the first place, and "Never done again." for the bridge breaking.

You have made me prove my point, I have, the speed they move at is more than enough for them to avoid bullets, albeit, not once fired, however combined with precognition this allows them to deflect bullet speed weapons. Ergo, they can bullet time.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 03:08 PM
You're literally just saying Rubbish to the fact that I have already proved my point.

Hardly the fact that you've made massively assumptions and think you have the right answer is laughable in the extreme.


Saying that's no good, does not in fact, make it no good.

If you keep saying silly things I am going to have to mock you. As I do not agree that screenshots will prove speed, period. I don't.


You can measure this out, I had to take the measurements of the characters, and do a million other anatomy related things to find out the correct numbers for my calc's.

Stop being dishonest, you did screenshots.


It is in fact, a two way street, and given Harry Potter is a book's original series, and that feat wasn't replicated in books it is time for your mantra of "Non canon, and "Never done again.".

Not non-canon, outlier. There is a difference. But yes, point taken.

Nekura
2012-07-07, 03:08 PM
Yes it does as we see Jedi's having droids fire blasters directly at them on several ocassions, not just from odd angles.

Yeah you still haven't explained what odd angles tracers supposedly can't be seen at, where blasters have been seen at that angle, and why that proves that they are slower instead of easier to see because they are larger/brighter.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 03:14 PM
Yeah you still haven't explained what odd angles tracers supposedly can't be seen at, where blasters have been seen at that angle, and why that proves that they are slower instead of easier to see because they are larger/brighter.

It is how the rods and cones work in your eye. It is why you won't see the arrow if it flies directly at you, but can see if it your five to ten meters to the side of it.

Sort of why if you think someone is in your garden you don't stare ahead, you look right to left very quickly a lot. The burst of movement is picked up out of the corner of your eye. Strange, but true.

Fan
2012-07-07, 03:15 PM
Please examine my recent posts, I do ACTUAL PHYSICS WORK when I do calc's, I do REAL MATH that is based on REAL THINGS.

However, let me understand this.

You wont accept books because they're non canon in your eyes.

You wont accept screen shots with real physics calcs. Which means movie's are out.

You wont accept the T.V. Series. As you've said calling it an "Abomination".

Now, I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say you wont accept the games either.

So that means.. you literally have admitted to not accepting anything for the sake of the argument, and are thus, inclined not to accept any argument presented to you as legitimate?

Seems to me less like you're arguing and more like you're screaming at people, and accepting responses so you can blatantly tell them how much you don't accept their sources as valid.

Xondoure
2012-07-07, 03:17 PM
Well here's the thing, Yoda's a small target, but his only chance at dealing damage is his lightsaber (Force Telekinetics have nothing on wand manipulation. This came up a lot in Vader vs. Voldy, and I stand by it. Telekinesis always takes considerable effort other than force push really, and force push is Stupefy without a light effect.) Whereas Dumbledore is striking at range and has area of effect spells. And that's where he comes across on top. Dumbledore controls the battlefield. Telekinesis, magical barriers, transfiguration, Yoda can't compete with that. And Wizards need one spell, just one spell to connect. Same for Yoda with his lightsaber, but quite honestly all Dumbledore has to do is cast protego on his robes and spectacles and boom, lightsaber would bounce right off. As for disarming Dumbledore, wizards can still cast spells without their wands, and Accio is basic enough. Now I have no doubt that at one point in the EU Yoda has deflected a death star bolt or something equally ridiculous, but that's why the EU isn't a very good source. Palpatine, Vader, Yoda, Luke, are all the strongest force users the galaxy has or will ever seen. And yet in the story where the stakes are highest, we see none of the ridiculous feats that get added later on.

Fan
2012-07-07, 03:20 PM
Well here's the thing, Yoda's a small target, but his only chance at dealing damage is his lightsaber (Force Telekinetics have nothing on wand manipulation. This came up a lot in Vader vs. Voldy, and I stand by it. Telekinesis always takes considerable effort other than force push really, and force push is Stupefy without a light effect.) Whereas Dumbledore is striking at range and has area of effect spells. And that's where he comes across on top. Dumbledore controls the battlefield. Telekinesis, magical barriers, transfiguration, Yoda can't compete with that. And Wizards need one spell, just one spell to connect. Same for Yoda with his lightsaber, but quite honestly all Dumbledore has to do is cast protego on his robes and spectacles and boom, lightsaber would bounce right off. As for disarming Dumbledore, wizards can still cast spells without their wands, and Accio is basic enough. Now I have no doubt that at one point in the EU Yoda has deflected a death star bolt or something equally ridiculous, but that's why the EU isn't a very good source. Palpatine, Vader, Yoda, Luke, are all the strongest force users the galaxy has or will ever seen. And yet in the story where the stakes are highest, we see none of the ridiculous feats that get added later on.

Protego doesn't have the resistance feats to hold up against a lightsaber, rock shattering spells have broken protego.

Lightsabers would go straight through it, as would a force push given the force at higher ends of focus has moved starships all the way up to a KM without huge amounts of effort.


Stupefy can be absorbed with force absorb and redirected back at them. We have to assume Force Magic transparecy meaning occulemency defends against mind trick as well.

There's really no defense that Dumbledore that can put up that has shown it's able to resist a light saber.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 03:23 PM
Please examine my recent posts, I do ACTUAL PHYSICS WORK when I do calc's, I do REAL MATH that is based on REAL THINGS.

You stated timescales but no calcs were presented. So you posted screenshots.


However, let me understand this.

You wont accept books because they're non canon in your eyes.

Non-sequitur. I said they are contradicted a lot by G-canon, and thus generally iffy, unless OP allows it. If EU force powers are included 'god-Yoda' crushes the wizarding world beneath his green sandaled feet.


You wont accept screen shots with real physics calcs. Which means movie's are out.

Also non-sequitur. They were screenshots, no calcs were included, you know real physics which you claim to know.


You wont accept the T.V. Series. As you've said calling it an "Abomination".

We can see Yoda's general power level in AotC and RotS. The cartoon is an abomination and full of outliers.


Now, I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say you wont accept the games either.

Games are T-canon I think...


So that means.. you literally have admitted to not accepting anything for the sake of the argument, and are thus, inclined not to accept any argument presented to you as legitimate?

So far you have made a lot of logical fallacies and claims - of calcs, screensghots really aren't - although they do show extremely fast movement.


Seems to me less like you're arguing and more like you're screaming at people, and accepting responses.

Shifting of the BoP.


Lightsabers would go straight through it, as would a force push given the force at higher ends of focus has moved starships all the way up to a KM without huge amounts of effort.

This feat that moved the ISD's out of the system burnt a jedi to a cinder, and was actually a gestalt (in EU) between numerous other jedi.

Nekura
2012-07-07, 03:28 PM
Hardly the fact that you've made massively assumptions and think you have the right answer is laughable in the extreme.



If you keep saying silly things I am going to have to mock you. As I do not agree that screenshots will prove speed, period. I don't.



Stop being dishonest, you did screenshots.



Not non-canon, outlier. There is a difference. But yes, point taken.

No that is even more non-canon then the star wars eu. In the different star wars media you show them using different powers at different places and times. Where as the harry potter books and movies describe the same events/battles where they didn't use any flying ability in the books but did in the movie. Star wars bringing out a new ability my or my not be canon but at least isn't contradictory to the original source. Bellatrix casting spells while flying around in the department of mysteries as shown in the movies directly contradicts the books.

Fan
2012-07-07, 03:28 PM
That was an entire fleet of ISD's, and it slung them across the galaxy far enough that they had to use hyper drive to get back to the fight.

Now if we divide that by a hundred, we still get the ability to tear apart a star ship, and there are other EU feats putting them well above this.

Please, read the respect thread I linked. Here it is again for your pleasure. (http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=532457)

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 03:31 PM
Protego doesn't have the resistance feats to hold up against a lightsaber, rock shattering spells have broken protego.

Lightsabers would go straight through it, as would a force push given the force at higher ends of focus has moved starships all the way up to a KM without huge amounts of effort.


Stupefy can be absorbed with force absorb and redirected back at them. We have to assume Force Magic transparecy meaning occulemency defends against mind trick as well.

There's really no defense that Dumbledore that can put up that has shown it's able to resist a light saber.

On the other hand, there is no proof that a lightsaber would automatically bypass Protego the way you're claiming it is. You say Protego shatters beneath a rock-breaking spell because it exerted enough force to break rocks, whereas it's equally or more likely that it broke because it was hit with enough magic to break rocks. A lightsaber has no magic - guided by the Force, yes, but is in itself completely technological, thus it would bounce harmlessly off a Protego spell as easily as it would an energy shield of comparable strength.

As well, saying Force Push would break it because of the one feat you described is akin to saying a firecracker will blow up a building because tons of C4 can blow up a building. They're both explosives, after all.

GnomeGninjas
2012-07-07, 03:33 PM
That's by no means instant, considering Abra Kadabera is by far sub sonic considering the only time it catches people is when they aren't looking.

The transformation of Draco took more time than it would take to be out of the Wizard's focus, and it's merely an invisible direction of energy, and if it's not, then it's an effect centered on the target and is avoidable by not being in the same spot.

Something Yoda is quite adept at doing.

Your right it's not instant, also
I just remembered that the wand needs to be pointed at the target, though I don't think that that would be to hard. Still I don't think it would be to hard for Dumbledore to win. Yoda's only effective thing is moving really fast (maybe bullet time) and having a laser sword. Dumbledore could teleport away a little bit, Yoda would run after him with force speed Dumbledore could teleport away. Force powers use up your energy I don't think spells do. Eventually Yoda is out of force power. Dumbledore conjures some rocks or something to crush him, he has conjured things, he conjured chairs at Harry's hearing in The order of the pheonix. Also when Yoda is going at ridiculous speeds to try to catch up with Dumbledore, dumbledore could conjure something in the way for Yoda to crash into.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 03:33 PM
No that is even more non-canon then the star wars eu. In the different star wars media you show them using different powers at different places and times. Where as the harry potter books and movies describe the same events/battles where they didn't use any flying ability in the books but did in the movie. Star wars bringing out a new ability my or my not be canon but at least isn't contradictory to the original source. Bellatrix casting spells while flying around in the department of mysteries as shown in the movies directly contradicts the books.

I was not aware of the fact it was not mentioned in the books actually. However JK has not, to my knowledge anyway slammed the films and IIRC was actually involved and on set for some of them. In fact the altered ending in the last film was directly cleared by her.


That was an entire fleet of ISD's, and it slung them across the galaxy far enough that they had to use hyper drive to get back to the fight.

Now if we divide that by a hundred, we still get the ability to tear apart a star ship, and there are other EU feats putting them well above this.

Please, read the respect thread I linked. Here it is again for your pleasure. (http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=532457)

As I said, Eu makes this a roflstomp, and therefore pointless.

Fan
2012-07-07, 03:33 PM
Claiming that only magic can break magic is a fallacy as it's never been proven to be exceptionally resistant to regular physical force, OR been stated to be only breakable by magic.

Light Saber's have broken force barriers, and The Force is the Star Wars equivalent of magic.

Which in fairness, we have to assume transparency to.

Also again, I've yet to see any book feats of non deatheaters flying around at all or using teleportation during combat.

Please, post any of them, because otherwise. They don't.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 03:37 PM
'Have' broken force barriers, i.e. it is possible to do so. You were postulating that the lightsaber 'would' break the Protego, which is just as much a fallacy as saying it 'wouldn't'. Can you supply an example of these force barriers (whatever source invented them), along with who is projecting it and who's cutting through it? That'd be useful to judge how well a lightsaber would be able to penetrate this similar shield.

Dr.Epic
2012-07-07, 03:37 PM
So I'm asking for this vs Thread :
1) Who wins, Yoda or Dumbledore in a duel
2) Jedi or wizards/witches in a battle?

1. Yoda, hands down.
2. Jedi, hands down.

Harry Potter wizards seem to lack common sense and that's their major weakness.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 03:38 PM
1. Yoda, hands down.
2. Jedi, hands down.

Harry Potter wizards seem to lack common sense and that's their major weakness.

1. Agreed.
2. Honestly, Jedi don't do much better in this regard. If Jedi can deflect spells with sabers, though, then they win hands-down.

Rogerd
2012-07-07, 03:41 PM
1. Yoda, hands down.
2. Jedi, hands down.

Harry Potter wizards seem to lack common sense and that's their major weakness.

Personally i think they're more likely to compare notes on how they deal with Dark Lords, swap stories and maybe swap techniques. ;)

EDIT:

"You did what to Sidious' lightning?" inquired Dumbledore, eyebrow raised.

"Reflected it back, I did."

"Should've seen what happened when Voldemort showered me with glass..." chuckled the old wizard. "I formed a shield, although some got through. took days to wash all that glass off." Both laugh in unison.

"Show me that trick you must."

A twinkle of mischief can be seen in the wizard's eye. "Only if you show that lightning trick first,"

Kyberwulf
2012-07-07, 03:46 PM
One thing about the movies. You don't really get to see the Jedi at top spec either. Due to the fact that the Dark side was more powerful do to the mechanics of Darth Sideous ...

Fan
2012-07-07, 03:49 PM
'Have' broken force barriers, i.e. it is possible to do so. You were postulating that the lightsaber 'would' break the Protego, which is just as much a fallacy as saying it 'wouldn't'. Can you supply an example of these force barriers (whatever source invented them), along with who is projecting it and who's cutting through it? That'd be useful to judge how well a lightsaber would be able to penetrate this similar shield.

Sure, it's all available in that respect thread I posted. Luke has done it a number of times in his battles against Dark Jedi.

There's even a Abridged Version. (http://outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/Respect+Thread+-+Luke+Skywalker)

Hell, there's even a Wookiepedia article about it. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_barrier)

Nekura
2012-07-07, 04:06 PM
I was not aware of the fact it was not mentioned in the books actually. However JK has not, to my knowledge anyway slammed the films and IIRC was actually involved and on set for some of them. In fact the altered ending in the last film was directly cleared by her.


Well there you go an alternate ending JKR approval or not only one can be the canon ending. Just like with the flying at that battle. While not completely impossible for an ability like that it's magic after all it didn't happen that way in the books. Just because some director or somebody added things to make them more intense to make more money and JKR said go for it doesn't make it canon.


Protego is not something you cast on robes. And while it is hard to say how force powers and lightsabers would interact with magic you can't say spells would go through lightsabers so they can't block them on one hand and say a lightsaber would just bounce off a protego shield on the other. In their respective universes protego isn't a very good defense and there isn't much a lightsaber can't cut.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 04:16 PM
Sure, it's all available in that respect thread I posted. Luke has done it a number of times in his battles against Dark Jedi.

There's even a Abridged Version. (http://outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/Respect+Thread+-+Luke+Skywalker)

Hell, there's even a Wookiepedia article about it. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_barrier)

Skimming the article, I only see mentions of force barriers being broken by superior force-users. Every instance of it being used against a weapon has it being successful, including the sole mention of lightsabers in a C-Canon video game.

Fan
2012-07-07, 04:21 PM
Skimming the article, I only see mentions of force barriers being broken by superior force-users. Every instance of it being used against a weapon has it being successful, including the sole mention of lightsabers in a C-Canon video game.

That's just a matter of the power itself having fewer uses due to being EU implemented solely as opposed to Speed, push, grip, and lightning all having core movie appearances.

Xondoure
2012-07-07, 04:23 PM
Well there you go an alternate ending JKR approval or not only one can be the canon ending. Just like with the flying at that battle. While not completely impossible for an ability like that it's magic after all it didn't happen that way in the books. Just because some director or somebody added things to make them more intense to make more money and JKR said go for it doesn't make it canon.


Protego is not something you cast on robes. And while it is hard to say how force powers and lightsabers would interact with magic you can't say spells would go through lightsabers so they can't block them on one hand and say a lightsaber would just bounce off a protego shield on the other. In their respective universes protego isn't a very good defense and there isn't much a lightsaber can't cut.

Protego is something that can be cast on items. How you might ask? Get the Weasleys to do it. :smalltongue: It's a weaker charm, but is omni present. And here's the thing, A lightsaber couts through anything but that doesn't matter if the kinetic energy is reflected back. That is the entire principle of lightsaber dueling after all. So Dumbledore flies up into the air and then surrounds Yoda with Fiend Fyre. Game set match.

Fan
2012-07-07, 04:29 PM
Protego is something that can be cast on items. How you might ask? Get the Weasleys to do it. :smalltongue: It's a weaker charm, but is omni present. And here's the thing, A lightsaber couts through anything but that doesn't matter if the kinetic energy is reflected back. That is the entire principle of lightsaber dueling after all. So Dumbledore flies up into the air and then surrounds Yoda with Fiend Fyre. Game set match.

Please.. Prove that protego is exceptionally resistant to physical force.

There is no mention EVER of reflection, and magical blasts capable of severing stone, but being stopped by enough of it (A light saber isn't stopped by much unless it's thicker than it's length, and even then it can be worked at.).

If anything I could posit that it's a magical only barrier rather than a physical one, and THEN I can go ahead and posit that Dumbledore is not in possession of a charm, and if he gets to bring in prep time then we have a republic strike cruiser bomb the site from orbit.

Xondoure
2012-07-07, 04:31 PM
Please.. Prove that protego is exceptionally resistant to physical force.

There is no mention EVER of reflection, and magical blasts capable of severing stone, but being stopped by enough of it (A light saber isn't stopped by much unless it's thicker than it's length, and even then it can be worked at.).

If anything I could posit that it's a magical only barrier rather than a physical one, and THEN I can go ahead and posit that Dumbledore is not in possession of a charm, and if he gets to bring in prep time then we have a republic strike cruiser bomb the site from orbit.

Protego has at several point prevented people from moving forward, thrown them back, and generally acted as a wall of force as well as a spell bouncer. If there was something for the lightsaber to cut I'd agree that it would go through, but there isn't, so I don't see how that is relevant.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 04:32 PM
Go ahead and have your strike cruiser bombard the battle site from orbit. When the combatants actually show up to the fight, they'll now be fighting in a crater instead of the undefined environment it was before, since you said it was 'during prep time'.:smallcool:

Also, I think you misunderstood the term 'charm'. It's not referring to a physical object, but 'charm' as it's used in HP, a non-injurious spell.

Fan
2012-07-07, 04:35 PM
Protego has at several point prevented people from moving forward, thrown them back, and generally acted as a wall of force as well as a spell bouncer. If there was something for the lightsaber to cut I'd agree that it would go through, but there isn't, so I don't see how that is relevant.

That is by no means proof of reversing kinetic energy.

Saying that because it bounces Harry Potter spells back it bounces everything back is a no limits fallacy.

There are forces greater than anything displayed in Harry Potter verse at work, INCLUDING spells that have broken Protego.

The Force is one of those "forces", and Light Sabers have been able to overcome those barriers.

The fact that you say it is something things can bounce off of is proof enough that something is there to stop it, even if it is a shimmering invisible barrier.

And I was referring to imbuing robes with spells, like protego, that is an enchantment brand of charming something, and it's not something that can be done mid battle.

Also stating that the strike cruiser wont have slagged the planet is also being round about for base delta zero.

Nekura
2012-07-07, 04:37 PM
Protego is something that can be cast on items. How you might ask? Get the Weasleys to do it. :smalltongue: It's a weaker charm, but is omni present. And here's the thing, A lightsaber couts through anything but that doesn't matter if the kinetic energy is reflected back. That is the entire principle of lightsaber dueling after all. So Dumbledore flies up into the air and then surrounds Yoda with Fiend Fyre. Game set match.

Yes the twins were able to make cloths that had a low powered shield that didn't block much and didn't last long but I don't remember it being the protego. Where does it say shields in Harry Potter reflect kinetic energy and how much? When did the twins invent it before or after dumbledore died? Did he know how to do it? How is dumbledore flying with a broom or the non-canon flying ability deatheaters had in the movie? If we are giving Dumbledore equipment he doesn't normally have on hand some of which we have never seen him use lets give Yoda some other star wars tech.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 04:39 PM
There are forces greater than anything displayed in Harry Potter verse at work, INCLUDING spells that have broken Protego.

The Force is one of those "forces", and Light Sabers have been able to overcome those barriers.


And you have proof of this, or are you saying the Force is greater than anything displayed in Harry Potter solely because you want Star Wars to win? Actually, that's an unfair rhetorical question, because providing proof that the Force is a higher order of power than magic isn't possible, unless Lucas and Rowling got together over beers one afternoon and hashed it out.


Regardless, it looks like this thread has fallen into the exact trap I feared and questioned in the first response on Page 1. This is not a fight of Yoda vs. Dumbledore, this is a fight of Omniscient Character #1 Possessing Every Force Power Demonstrated In Star Wars against Omniscient Character #2 Possessing Every Spell Demonstrated In Harry Potter. And when we go pitting Setting vs. Setting by extrapolating what they might be capable of, not specifically Character vs. Character in what they are demonstrated as being capable of, our only logical recourse is to resort to The Dalek Rule, which would settle the fight in favor of Dumbledore.

Fan
2012-07-07, 04:42 PM
And you have proof of this, or are you saying the Force is greater than anything displayed in Harry Potter solely because you want Star Wars to win? Actually, that's kind of an unfair rhetorical question, because providing proof that the Force is a higher order of power than magic isn't possible.


Regardless, it looks like this thread has fallen into the exact trap I feared and questioned in the first response on Page 1. This is not a fight of Yoda vs. Dumbledore, this is a fight of Omniscient Character #1 Possessing Every Force Power Demonstrated In Star Wars against Omniscient Character #2 Possessing Every Spell Demonstrated In Harry Potter. And when we go pitting Setting vs. Setting by extrapolating what they might be capable of, not specifically Character vs. Character in what they are demonstrated as being capable of, our only logical recourse is to resort to The Dalek Rule, which would settle the fight in favor of Dumbledore.

Dumbledore isn't fast enough to fight Yoda.

Sorry, he isn't. I wasn't giving him magical powers he didn't have, and I don't like having it being said that I have. I've never posited that he had the magical knowledge of every force power, someone was questioning the power of the force in general, and a single jedi's ability to handle a starship grade threat. I gave them Luke Skywalker, the ICONIC jedi.

And yes we CAN say the Force is stronger because it has higher displayed feats of strength going solely by actual events rather than statements which have no basis in a verses thread.

Yoda has force speed, he uses it as a core of his form of light saber of combat to counteract his old age.

Yoda moves as fast as a car, Dumbledore doesn't have the kind of reactions to avoid these kinds of attacks repeatedly, especially not right out of the gate.

Yoda speed blitzes with a light saber.

Urpriest
2012-07-07, 04:43 PM
Force access and strength is physiological, based in midichlorians. Magic primarily involves knowledge, and while certain people are stronger or weaker in magic, a biological basis has never been proposed in the HPverse. Thus, a simple Polyjuice potion will give Dumbledore Yoda's strength in the force, if not his skill or experience. It's not like Yoda is overprotective of his shed hairs, since AFAIK there isn't anything in SW that uses shed hair to attack someone.

Fan
2012-07-07, 04:44 PM
Force access and strength is physiological, based in midichlorians. Magic primarily involves knowledge, and while certain people are stronger or weaker in magic, a biological basis has never been proposed in the HPverse. Thus, a simple Polyjuice potion will give Dumbledore Yoda's strength in the force, if not his skill or experience. It's not like Yoda is overprotective of his shed hairs, since AFAIK there isn't anything in SW that uses shed hair to attack someone.

Polyjuice takes too long to brew to be valid.

Month + prep time means slagged planet.

Xondoure
2012-07-07, 04:46 PM
Dumbledore isn't fast enough to fight Yoda.

Sorry, he isn't. I wasn't giving him magical powers he didn't have, and I don't like having it being said that I have. I've never posited that he had the magical knowledge of every force power, someone was questioning the power of the force in general, and a single jedi's ability to handle a starship grade threat. I gave them Luke Skywalker, the ICONIC jedi.

And yes we CAN say the Force is stronger because it has higher displayed feats of strength going solely by actual events rather than statements which have no basis in a verses thread.

Yoda has force speed, he uses it as a core of his form of light saber of combat to counteract his old age.

Yoda moves as fast as a car, Dumbledore doesn't have the kind of reactions to avoid these kinds of attacks repeatedly, especially not right out of the gate.

Yoda speed blitzes with a light saber.

Yoda has to close distance, this gives dumbledore reaction time. You can react to a car, believe it or not. And if you teleport reacting would be enough. Now all Dumbledore has to do is find a way to keep Yoda contained for long enough to get him on the defensive, and then at some point a spell will get by and Yoda will be screwed.

Fan
2012-07-07, 04:47 PM
Yoda has to close distance, this gives dumbledore reaction time. You can react to a car, believe it or not. And if you teleport reacting would be enough. Now all Dumbledore has to do is find a way to keep Yoda contained for long enough to get him on the defensive, and then at some point a spell will get by and Yoda will be screwed.

Okay, what can Dumbledore do in the .21 seconds it takes for Yoda to close distance going by slower character's speed feats?

Also again, show me some book quotes of combat apparition.

I'm open to either side, it's not a matter of me "wanting" anyone to win, I don't even like star wars. I side with logic and math, and Dumbledore doesn't have the speed, or reactions, to respond to Yoda to win, and no one is posting anything but opinions and ideas as to the contrary.

You know how fiercely I've argued against Star Wars in the past, I have an EXTREME disdain for it, however, I've learned to stop giving a damn about who's my favorite and do the math on the situation, and nothing Dumbledore has puts his reactions even at base human, the man wears glasses and likely has impaired hearing, if anything his reactions are dulled.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 04:51 PM
Okay, what can Dumbledore do in the .21 seconds it takes for Yoda to close distance?


Teleport. Thoughts move at a speed measured in milliseconds, and Dumbledore has been demonstrated capable of both wandless and silent magic.

For that matter, can you show us how you determined the exact starting distance at which point the two combatants became aware of each other? You'd need that, completely separately from explaining your calculations to determine how fast Yoda can moves based on the confirmed evidence you've claimed.


Frankly, I think Yoda's going to win for many of the same reasons you do. But your more specific claims, like the .21 seconds thing and the stubborn insistance that Lightsabers will cut through any magic shield, need to be backed up simply to maintain Vs. thread integrity.

Fan
2012-07-07, 04:53 PM
Teleport. Thoughts move at a speed measured in milliseconds, and Dumbledore has been demonstrated capable of both wandless and silent magic.

For that matter, can you show us how you determined the exact starting distance at which point the two combatants became aware of each other? You'd need that, completely separately from explaining your calculations to determine how fast Yoda can moves based on the confirmed evidence you've claimed.

It's a simple matter of the canon length of a light saber, it was the only visible constant so you go by the blade, and even then, I was consistent enough to provide for deceptive movements in the lightsaber of him only turning rather than actually moving.

Again, Dumbledore has NEVER used apparition in combat. Ever. He may be capable yes, but he does not use it, and no one else does either. Not outside of the movies at least, and even then it's Death eater exclusive implying it probably is dark magic.

Protego does NOT have the resistance feats to hold up against a lightsaber, "because it's magic" is an insult to the premise of a versus thread and has no basis in logic.

When you want to see the kind of damage something can take, you take the BIGGEST blast that magic has ever created that can be reasonably blocked, and you translate it into that. Which means that it can roughly take something that could cut stone, we'll be generous and say down to 3-4 inches.

Now the density of stone being what it is, it has NOTHING on the things Lightsabers have cut through nigh effortlessly.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 04:55 PM
It's a simple matter of the canon length of a light saber, it was the only visible constant so you go by the blade, and even then, I was consistent enough to provide for deceptive movements in the lightsaber of him only turning rather than actually moving.


I think you're responding to someone other than me here, because I can't parse this as a reply to what you quoted...:smallconfused:

Fan
2012-07-07, 04:58 PM
I think you're responding to someone other than me here, because I can't parse this as a reply to what you quoted...:smallconfused:

*Sigh*

I digitized the TPM Force-speed sequence, did an inverse-telecine with VirtualDub to convert back to the original theatrical frame rate, and dumped to image sequence, from there it's just a simple process of knowing how long the frames take. Provided by the program.

That's how I got the time frame.

The saber is how I got the distance covered, it's movement and the size of the light saber provided by the technical documentaries tells you they moved a meter in those frames.

KnightDisciple
2012-07-07, 04:58 PM
Force access and strength is physiological, based in midichlorians. Magic primarily involves knowledge, and while certain people are stronger or weaker in magic, a biological basis has never been proposed in the HPverse. Thus, a simple Polyjuice potion will give Dumbledore Yoda's strength in the force, if not his skill or experience. It's not like Yoda is overprotective of his shed hairs, since AFAIK there isn't anything in SW that uses shed hair to attack someone.

Um, there does seem to be a biological component to being able to do magic in general. That's why there are 3 actual classifications for people in HP. (Note: As far as I understand, all 3 can use some things like Floo or Portkeys.)
Muggles: Can't use magic, can't even see some magical creatures, but are very much affected by magic.
Squib: Can't use magic, but can see and interact with it fully.
Witch/Wizard: Can use magic, with varying degrees of skill, power, and variety, and can of course see and interact with all magical items normally.

The first 2 groups can never learn to use magic. They literally do not have it in them. And Rowling even gave us the notion that inbreeding in magical society is what leads to Squibs. Meanwhile, those coming from non-magical families seem to have a random mutation in their genetics that allows access to magic. Hence things like accidental magic.

So, yeah. Honestly, there's harder evidence for magic being biology-based than there is for the Force relying on midichlorians (rather than said things being passive symbiotes that merely indicate the presence of the Force; since they're only mentioned like 2 times in 1 of 6 movies, and basically nowhere else in any bit of SW work...).

Mystic Muse
2012-07-07, 04:59 PM
Magic primarily involves knowledge, and while certain people are stronger or weaker in magic, a biological basis has never been proposed in the HPverse. Thus, a simple Polyjuice potion will give Dumbledore Yoda's strength in the force, if not his skill or experience. It's not like Yoda is overprotective of his shed hairs, since AFAIK there isn't anything in SW that uses shed hair to attack someone.

This wouldn't really do anything. It's irrelevant if Dumbledore could have access to the Force because he wouldn't know how to use it. Even if he could, I think he'd be hard pressed to use it effectively, especially against a Jedi master. Jedi train for a long time to be able to properly use the force.

This also requires that he somehow have Polyjuice potion on him for some reason, and be able to get one of Yoda's hairs off of him in the middle of the battle. Even if this gave Dumbledore power in the force, he'd still be in an unfamiliar and awkward body.

Also, it could be argued that the potion would malfunction anyway. We know from the books it isn't supposed to be used for animal transformations, so it probably wouldn't work properly with an alien transformation. Even if it did, as I mentioned, Dumbledore probably wouldn't be able to use it to his advantage due to being in an unfamiliar body and not being able to use the force nearly as well.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 05:05 PM
*Sigh*

I digitized the TPM Force-speed sequence, did an inverse-telecine with VirtualDub to convert back to the original theatrical frame rate, and dumped to image sequence, from there it's just a simple process of knowing how long the frames take. Provided by the program.

That's how I got the time frame.

So you know how fast Yoda(Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon) can move, but that doesn't tell us how far apart they are to begin with - unless you're postulating that Yoda's movement involves non-Euclidean geometry and/or tesseracts.

Fan
2012-07-07, 05:08 PM
So you know how fast Yoda(Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon) can move, but that doesn't tell us how far apart they are to begin with - unless you're postulating that Yoda's movement involves non-Euclidean geometry and/or tesseracts.

Well you have a point there, but they cover enough space in that time to assume the standard dueling space of twelve paces.

12 paces × 1meter/1.46 paces = 8.22 meters distance.

His speed tops out at around 20-30 m/s (Going by SLOWER characters since again, I am limited to movies, and Yoda has all of two fights both of which are flashier force power slings like absorbtion, and push / pull battles.) meaning he can cross that in.. .32 seconds assuming a middle ground on his range? .26 at top.

That's less time than it would take Dumbledore to turn around and face his opponent, now unless we're assuming Dumbledore knows EVERYTHING about Yoda, and is expecting someone who's 3"2 to come at him at highway speeds.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 05:13 PM
Okay, that's a fair assumption, though if the fight began at a standardized 12 paces, it must be a mutually agreed-upon fight rather than a spontaneous Let's You And Him Fight To The Death. Without more information on how wandless casting works, we can't be certain Dumbledore wouldn't be able to put up a shield in time, or to keep his shields up under repeated lightsaber blows while still being able to counterattack offensively.

Most likely outcome is a Yoda victory with his training saber (they're having a formal duel, after all, and considering the two combatants it would almost certainly not be to the death), at which point Dumbledore treats both of them to butterbeers where they reminisce about the troubles in training Chosen Ones through cryptic hints and keeping secrets.

Nekura
2012-07-07, 05:17 PM
This wouldn't really do anything. It's irrelevant if Dumbledore could have access to the Force because he wouldn't know how to use it. Even if he could, I think he'd be hard pressed to use it effectively, especially against a Jedi master. Jedi train for a long time to be able to properly use the force.

This also requires that he somehow have Polyjuice potion on him for some reason, and be able to get one of Yoda's hairs off of him in the middle of the battle. Even if this gave Dumbledore power in the force, he'd still be in an unfamiliar and awkward body.

Also, it could be argued that the potion would malfunction anyway. We know from the books it isn't supposed to be used for animal transformations, so it probably wouldn't work properly with an alien transformation. Even if it did, as I mentioned, Dumbledore probably wouldn't be able to use it to his advantage due to being in an unfamiliar body and not being able to use the force nearly as well.

Not only would it be dangerous to try using polyjuice on an alien even if it worked pefectly just having midochlorians or whatever to have the potential to use the force doesn't help. Luke wasn't given midochlorians by obiwan or yoda he always had them. Would it even be something Dumbledore would try? There are other things with different magic then humans like goblins and house elves. Why would Dumbledore try to use polyjuice to atempt to use unfamiliar magic?

Fan
2012-07-07, 05:26 PM
Okay, that's a fair assumption, though if the fight began at a standardized 12 paces, it must be a mutually agreed-upon fight rather than a spontaneous Let's You And Him Fight To The Death. Without more information on how wandless casting works, we can't be certain Dumbledore wouldn't be able to put up a shield in time, or to keep his shields up under repeated lightsaber blows while still being able to counterattack offensively.

Most likely outcome is a Yoda victory with his training saber (they're having a formal duel, after all, and considering the two combatants it would almost certainly not be to the death), at which point Dumbledore treats both of them to butterbeers where they reminisce about the troubles in training Chosen Ones through cryptic hints and keeping secrets.

I totally assume that this is an honor duel.

There is no other real scenario.

GnomeGninjas
2012-07-07, 06:35 PM
Also again, I've yet to see any book feats of non deatheaters flying around at all or using teleportation during combat.

Please, post any of them, because otherwise. They don't.

In the duel in the ministry between Dumbledore and Voldomort Dumbledore teleports around.

Lamech
2012-07-07, 08:45 PM
Dumbledore teleports away and roasts the area with fire. Goodbye Yoda.

Dark Elf Bard
2012-07-07, 08:56 PM
What reason would they have for fighting in the first place?

McStabbington
2012-07-07, 09:44 PM
For me, it comes down to a question partly of how fast Dumbledore can cast spells (Yoda is quite fast, and in game terms can use the Force to amp his dexterity up to ludicrous levels), but also how many he can keep going at a single time. Because it strikes me that each trilogy presents a problem in gauging just how capable a combatant Yoda might be. In the original trilogy, every time we see a very powerful Force user duel with Luke, we're watching that person terrify Luke by setting their power level to 3. In ESB for example, when Luke tries to duel Vader a second time, Vader picks up everything in the room and chucks it at him. While he duels. Without any apparent effort. All to drive the confidence out of Luke and replace it with fear and hate.

And of course, the new trilogy isn't a very good barometer of Force skills because, well, everyone has the same jumpy style used at the same speed. For all that Lucas owes to Kurosawa, he clearly never learned how to establish the badass credentials of a character.

Fan
2012-07-08, 02:15 AM
In the duel in the ministry between Dumbledore and Voldomort Dumbledore teleports around.

Book quotes?

Because the only time I remember that, is in the movie.

And again, wandless magic isn't instant, it's merely that you have to THINK the word, but even that takes time and your first reaction when fighting someone smaller than you is NOT going to be run away.

Yoda, DOES, however have Battle Precog giving him reaction edge, the speed edge, and a lightsaber gives him striking force edge.

This is again, unless we're giving Dumbdledore magical knowledge of every one of Yoda's capabilities.

Xondoure
2012-07-08, 02:24 AM
Book quotes?

Because the only time I remember that, is in the movie.

I am far too lazy to find them, however I have no doubt someone will as I believe they were pulled out in the Voldemort vs. Vader thread.

Fan
2012-07-08, 02:35 AM
I am far too lazy to find them, however I have no doubt someone will as I believe they were pulled out in the Voldemort vs. Vader thread.

I don't remember them being used by Dumbledore.

Again, Quotes.

Xondoure
2012-07-08, 03:31 AM
I don't remember them being used by Dumbledore.

Again, Quotes.

Well I will point out that Apparition has been used successfully by wizards to escape battlefields and been used to get the jump on an opponent (Quidditch World Cup) so there is precedent for lower leveled power users using the ability at least partially for combat. Another thing of note is that all but one battle Dumbledore has is done inside the grounds of Hogwarts (and he doesn't have a lot of them.) While it is possible he teleported during the ministry fight and I've simply forgotten, even if he didn't that doesn't prove it as an impossibility as if I recall correctly he was tied down by a need to protect Harry.

And supposing we concede apparition in this instance there are numerous large radius blasting charms (not to mention protego) that could all be brought up within that split second in order to send Yoda flying right back.

Fan
2012-07-08, 03:35 AM
Well I will point out that Apparition has been used successfully by wizards to escape battlefields and been used to get the jump on an opponent (Quidditch World Cup) so there is precedent for lower leveled power users using the ability at least partially for combat. Another thing of note is that all but one battle Dumbledore has is done inside the grounds of Hogwarts (and he doesn't have a lot of them.) While it is possible he teleported during the ministry fight and I've simply forgotten, even if he didn't that doesn't prove it as an impossibility as if I recall correctly he was tied down by a need to protect Harry.

And supposing we concede apparition in this instance there are numerous large radius blasting charms (not to mention protego) that could all be brought up within that split second in order to send Yoda flying right back.

Please, show me one with a large enough radius that Yoda would not be able to avoid in .26-.32 seconds.

It takes longer than that for the average person to focus on a target half their size moving at highway speeds, and Dumbledore may have a warrior's senses, but even a Fighter Jet pilot wouldn't be able to keep up with that.

Coupled with the fact that Yoda usually leads in with a leap attack, and Dumbledore AGAIN just doesn't have the reaction time feats to put him even at movie Yoda level.

Also they used Apparition to enter the forest outside the world quidditch area and then WALKED in, and then never proceeded to use it in combat again.

Even if it IS possible, it's combat applications are never used in books, and thus they either don't know to, or it takes more focus to initiate than one could muster in battle, and as far as I understand apparition the transport also isn't instantaneous, and requires a moment of focus to start using.

Dumbledore isn't fast enough to kite, he's old and ailing physically to the point of at least being VISIBLY physically hobbled at points, and his "One hit KO" thing is just as much out of character as Yoda ordering a Republic Strike Cruiser Base Delta Zero the planet.

Also, Jedi are more than capable of flight, there is again. A power for that. Force Flight look it up on Wookiepedia. So it's not like leaving the ground gives him any advantage either.

Rogerd
2012-07-08, 04:59 AM
Well there you go an alternate ending JKR approval or not only one can be the canon ending. Just like with the flying at that battle. While not completely impossible for an ability like that it's magic after all it didn't happen that way in the books. Just because some director or somebody added things to make them more intense to make more money and JKR said go for it doesn't make it canon.

Wrong. It JKR said it is fine, and by default as the creator of the series; so that is exactly what it does - it canon. End of.


In their respective universes protego isn't a very good defense and there isn't much a lightsaber can't cut.

Star Wars is replete with stuff lightsabers cannot cut. Some of that is EU, I'll grant you, but some isn't.


Regardless, it looks like this thread has fallen into the exact trap I feared and questioned in the first response on Page 1. This is not a fight of Yoda vs. Dumbledore, this is a fight of Omniscient Character #1 Possessing Every Force Power Demonstrated In Star Wars against Omniscient Character #2 Possessing Every Spell Demonstrated In Harry Potter. And when we go pitting Setting vs. Setting by extrapolating what they might be capable of, not specifically Character vs. Character in what they are demonstrated as being capable of, our only logical recourse is to resort to The Dalek Rule, which would settle the fight in favor of Dumbledore.

I'm glad you noticed this, that people are assuming Yoda can do every force power despite him not displaying them.

Yoda has agility and a weapon, and the ability to absorb and reflect energy.

Dumbly has teleportation, and various other spells, some ofthem involved AoE fire spells which the Jedi, may, or may not be able to counter. We also know that they can also fly which may help the old wizard counteract the green elfin's agility.


And yes we CAN say the Force is stronger because it has higher displayed feats of strength going solely by actual events rather than statements which have no basis in a verses thread.

Do you ever stop with the logical fallacies, Jeez Louise? Simply put, we do not know this. What we do know is that the ability to use the force is based solely on midichlorians (which may or may not be a Wars method of explaining mitochrondria)

How many times do I have say this....if EU is involved it is a roftstomp for Star Wars, and is therefore full of dishonest people fapping off their favourite fiction and a pointless thread by virtue in fact of its nature.

Now Yoda as seen in the movies and CGU TCW, this is a close match, but by no means a stomp for either side. And quite frankly I hold by my comment that they get together and swap stories, and maybe a drink or two.


Yoda has force speed, he uses it as a core of his form of light saber of combat to counteract his old age.

You say this based on? Going by the RPG Yoda has another force power he uses to counteract his age, not force speed and being C-canon may not of any value for this thread.


Yoda moves as fast as a car, Dumbledore doesn't have the kind of reactions to avoid these kinds of attacks repeatedly, especially not right out of the gate.

Baseless assumption.


Month + prep time means slagged planet.

It would takes for a movie ISD to slag a planet, and only in EU can they do what people claim.


Also again, show me some book quotes of combat apparition.

Refusal to accept evidence. Watch the damn evidence in the Ministry of combat apparition.


glasses and likely has impaired hearing, if anything his reactions are dulled.

Cherry picking of facts. Yoda also walks with a cane and a limp.


You know how fiercely I've argued against Star Wars in the past, I have an EXTREME disdain for it

I love Star Wars, Trek, Who, and loads of fantasy settings - favouring none over the other and seeing the value of them all.

Zerter
2012-07-08, 05:36 AM
I've read the first few pages, but I'm going to skip the rest because its not making much sense. Everybody is talking about mechanics. If this was D&D and you had the choice between two statted out sheets than Dumbledore's character would be mechanically superior to Yoda's character and you should pick it if asked to pick the more powerful one. But it is not, they have actual personalities already.

The only reason Yoda gets his ass kicked is because Anakin betrays the cause, but... Yoda is the guy that saw that coming! He never wanted the boy to be trained in the first place. When everything turns bad, he shows to be incredibly smart in a fight and he has that killer instinct. Eventually despite losing everything he builds a contingency to safe the universe and leaves the place on his own terms.

Dumbledore? Not so much. He can't even handle Voldemort despite having plenty of opportunities and resources to do for decades, and I think we can all agree Voldemort is one of the dumbest villains of all time. Dumbledore even triggers some easy curse and dies a meaningless death... I mean, this is a universe where a almost retarded 12 year old does whatever he want without thinking it through and he ends up defeating the lord of evil, how hard could it have been really?

So yeah. Yoda with a mile.

Xondoure
2012-07-08, 05:41 AM
Please, show me one with a large enough radius that Yoda would not be able to avoid in .26-.32 seconds.

It takes longer than that for the average person to focus on a target half their size moving at highway speeds, and Dumbledore may have a warrior's senses, but even a Fighter Jet pilot wouldn't be able to keep up with that.

Coupled with the fact that Yoda usually leads in with a leap attack, and Dumbledore AGAIN just doesn't have the reaction time feats to put him even at movie Yoda level.

Also they used Apparition to enter the forest outside the world quidditch area and then WALKED in, and then never proceeded to use it in combat again.

Even if it IS possible, it's combat applications are never used in books, and thus they either don't know to, or it takes more focus to initiate than one could muster in battle, and as far as I understand apparition the transport also isn't instantaneous, and requires a moment of focus to start using.

Dumbledore isn't fast enough to kite, he's old and ailing physically to the point of at least being VISIBLY physically hobbled at points, and his "One hit KO" thing is just as much out of character as Yoda ordering a Republic Strike Cruiser Base Delta Zero the planet.

Also, Jedi are more than capable of flight, there is again. A power for that. Force Flight look it up on Wookiepedia. So it's not like leaving the ground gives him any advantage either.

He doesn't have to aim at Yoda, All he has to do is cast a spell that will blast away everything in front of him. Like the one Peter Pettigrew used to destroy an entire block while he was transfiguring into a rat and cutting off his finger. Or the one that was used to smash through a wing of Hogwarts castle (may be the same spell)

And I'm not referring to the death eaters. I'm referring to when the ministry apparated in around the trio and surrounded them instantly thinking they were up against the death eater that had set off the dark mark. Please remember these are just your average ministry employees (pretty sure they aren't even aurors) Dumbledore has the Elder Wand. Even if it normally wasn't possible to have that level of control in a fight, I'd say Dumbledore and Voldy are big exceptions to that rule.

Finally Dumbledore is not frail. His fortitude is in fact very impressive considering he took the ring's curse head on and it didn't instantly kill him, followed by him drinking the entire mind crushing potion Voldemort used to protect the locket. We see him keep up with Voldemort who happens to be in a brand new body.

Fan
2012-07-08, 07:02 AM
He doesn't have to aim at Yoda, All he has to do is cast a spell that will blast away everything in front of him. Like the one Peter Pettigrew used to destroy an entire block while he was transfiguring into a rat and cutting off his finger. Or the one that was used to smash through a wing of Hogwarts castle (may be the same spell)

And I'm not referring to the death eaters. I'm referring to when the ministry apparated in around the trio and surrounded them instantly thinking they were up against the death eater that had set off the dark mark. Please remember these are just your average ministry employees (pretty sure they aren't even aurors) Dumbledore has the Elder Wand. Even if it normally wasn't possible to have that level of control in a fight, I'd say Dumbledore and Voldy are big exceptions to that rule.

Finally Dumbledore is not frail. His fortitude is in fact very impressive considering he took the ring's curse head on and it didn't instantly kill him, followed by him drinking the entire mind crushing potion Voldemort used to protect the locket. We see him keep up with Voldemort who happens to be in a brand new body.

You do know that he DIDN'T destroy the city block right?

It wasn't even a block level of destruction, he used a Blasting Curse. (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Blasting_Curse) in the cramped confines of a crowded muggle street, and given it's a one of, there were probably gas lines buried underneath that Pettigrew didn't expect to hit.

There were no blown up buildings. There was some rubble from a gas main he hit, and he killed 12 people. Please do not exaggerate the situation.

Yoda is moving at 48 MPH, that is more than fast enough to get him out of the range out of even Voldemort's Blasting Curse (Preformed WITH the elder wand, albeit not while fully under his control.) who was capable of fighting Dumbledore who HAD the Elder Wand under his control on even turf.

Yoda has the force to augment his physical capabilities beyond what a normal human can reasonably be expected to react to at standard dueling distance of 12 paces.

It is not speculation, it is a limit of the human senses.

Wardog
2012-07-08, 12:25 PM
Time: 0.08 seconds. It's hard to see because they're translucent in Force-speed, but judging by Obi-Wan's saber, he's covered roughly 1 metre. To accelerate from standing start to cover 1 metre in 0.04 seconds requires acceleration of 1250 m/s^2, or more than one hundred ****ing G's at a minimum. Even if the location of his sabre is misleading and he only covered 1/2 metre in that time, he would still need to accelerate at more than 60 G's.

Time: 0.12 seconds. Obi-Wan has covered another metre, which indicates that he's topped out at around 20-30 m/s (45-68 mph). That's ****ing automobile highway speed, pal. And we're not just talking about moving his arm or bending his hips; we're talking about accelerating his entire body.


The problem here though is that we are dealing with such tiny snapshots of time (based on freeze-framing special effects) that any error or uncertainty in the (estimated) numbers is going to have massive consequences for the results.

And at best, all that's been shown is that Jedi can force-run at speeds of 17-25m/s (1m in 0.04s = 25m/s; 2m in 0.12s = 17m/s), and can reach those speeds (almost) instantly. So they are definitely superhuman, and can block or dodge blaster bolts. But nothing in that clip or elsewhere in the movies suggests they can move or accelerate fast enough to do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggFKLxAQBbc&feature=player_detailpage#t=23s), which is what I presume people are talking about when they say "bullet time".

The Glyphstone
2012-07-08, 01:09 PM
That's actually a good point. The mathematical margin of error here could be significant in terms of absolute comparisons. Probably not relevant to this overall Vs. situation, but something to consider.

mootoall
2012-07-08, 01:21 PM
Guys. You're missing something here. Jedi and Sith aren't good fighters just because of their years of training or any amount of skill. They can *see the future*. They have what is essentially spider-sense. They're not going down in a fight against a wizard whose most-used combat strategy is "Throw lightning or something at it." That's why Glyphstone's question is important. Canon Yoda would wipe the floor with Dumbledore. It's only when the wizards *aren't* terrible at utilizing their magic for combat do they start having a chance of winning.

AmberVael
2012-07-08, 02:17 PM
Book quotes?

Because the only time I remember that, is in the movie.

Just for the record, yes, wizards teleport in combat. And fast enough to avoid incoming spells, so that's pretty good reflexes on their part.

Quote and citation below.

Voldemort raised his wand and sent another jet of green light at Dumbledore, who turned and was gone in a whirling of his cloak; next second he had reappeared behind Voldemort and waved his wand...

Incidentally, Voldemort uses the same tactic a couple pages later.

I've no intention to really get into this debate, but I'm pretty willing to cite HP stuff if it's asked for. I have all the books and a fair memory.

PS - Yes, the HP wizards can fly without broomsticks. Or at least Voldemort can. It's kinda made a big deal out of though, so it's unlikely it is a common thing. Snape flies later as well, but it's kinda unclear how he does it- it might have been some kind of transformation as opposed to whatever Voldemort does.
If you want specific quotes on those two, I can provide.

Lamech
2012-07-08, 03:09 PM
Just for the record, yes, wizards teleport in combat. And fast enough to avoid incoming spells, so that's pretty good reflexes on their part.

Quote and citation below.


Incidentally, Voldemort uses the same tactic a couple pages later.

I've no intention to really get into this debate, but I'm pretty willing to cite HP stuff if it's asked for. I have all the books and a fair memory.

PS - Yes, the HP wizards can fly without broomsticks. Or at least Voldemort can. It's kinda made a big deal out of though, so it's unlikely it is a common thing. Snape flies later as well, but it's kinda unclear how he does it- it might have been some kind of transformation as opposed to whatever Voldemort does.
If you want specific quotes on those two, I can provide.IIRC, from the wiki Snape developed a flying trick, and Voldemort can fly somehow as well, possibly as learned from Snape. Also flying is impossible without some sort of item to do it, but presumably air or clothes can be used (See: Snape and Voldy)



Yoda is moving at 48 MPH, that is more than fast enough to get him out of the range out of even Voldemort's Blasting Curse (Preformed WITH the elder wand, albeit not while fully under his control.) who was capable of fighting Dumbledore who HAD the Elder Wand under his control on even turf.

Yoda has the force to augment his physical capabilities beyond what a normal human can reasonably be expected to react to at standard dueling distance of 12 paces.

It is not speculation, it is a limit of the human senses. Dumbledore can teleport away. Highway speed is a lot slower than teleport speed. Also he can summon a ring of fire (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Firestorm) if he feels like it (and be immune to fire), which in an enclosed area should cover the whole thing. If they aren't in an enclosed area teleport straight up and fly on something out of Yoda range.

Xondoure
2012-07-08, 03:42 PM
You do know that he DIDN'T destroy the city block right?

It wasn't even a block level of destruction, he used a Blasting Curse. (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Blasting_Curse) in the cramped confines of a crowded muggle street, and given it's a one of, there were probably gas lines buried underneath that Pettigrew didn't expect to hit.

There were no blown up buildings. There was some rubble from a gas main he hit, and he killed 12 people. Please do not exaggerate the situation.

Yoda is moving at 48 MPH, that is more than fast enough to get him out of the range out of even Voldemort's Blasting Curse (Preformed WITH the elder wand, albeit not while fully under his control.) who was capable of fighting Dumbledore who HAD the Elder Wand under his control on even turf.

Yoda has the force to augment his physical capabilities beyond what a normal human can reasonably be expected to react to at standard dueling distance of 12 paces.

It is not speculation, it is a limit of the human senses.

He did this while chopping off his fingers, and transforming into a rat. It wasn't exactly terribly difficult. And the same spell (or something similar) Completely wrecked parts of Hogwarts, which is about as resistant to magic, and defensively enchanted as you are going to get this side of Horcruxes. Hell, perhaps even more so.

Goosefeather
2012-07-08, 06:36 PM
You do know that he DIDN'T destroy the city block right?

It wasn't even a block level of destruction, he used a Blasting Curse. (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Blasting_Curse) in the cramped confines of a crowded muggle street, and given it's a one of, there were probably gas lines buried underneath that Pettigrew didn't expect to hit.

There were no blown up buildings. There was some rubble from a gas main he hit, and he killed 12 people. Please do not exaggerate the situation.


It's been a while since I read the books, but I thought 'gas main explosion' was just the excuse used to cover up the incident to the Muggles? And that the actual kabloom itself was purely Pettigrew's spell.

The Harry Potter wiki seems to back me up on this: "On 1 November, 1981, Peter Pettigrew may have used an extremely powerful blasting curse to decimate a street and kill twelve Muggles at once while evading Sirius Black, who was blamed for the crimes and Pettigrew's alleged death. The explosion was so fierce, it left a massive crater in the street, with the pipes showing. The Ministry gave an excuse of a "gas leak" to the surviving Muggles, and thought that Black was the one who used the curse."

Assuming he must have hit a gas line seems to me an unwarranted supposition.

Mystic Muse
2012-07-08, 06:46 PM
Wrong. It JKR said it is fine, and by default as the creator of the series; so that is exactly what it does - it canon. End of.



Wrong. Only one ending can be canon, because the two endings contradict each other.

Also, the books would naturally be a higher canon than the movies, so if something happens in the movies that doesn't happen in the books, it should be disregarded.

It doesn't matter if a creator helped with an adaptation. That doesn't make the adaptation just as much canon as the original work, especially when the adaptation contradicts the original work.

Now, if you have some sort of statement saying the movies are considered a higher canon than the books by J.K. Rowling, then fine, but otherwise the books should be considered a higher canon than the adaptations.

Fan
2012-07-08, 11:04 PM
It's been a while since I read the books, but I thought 'gas main explosion' was just the excuse used to cover up the incident to the Muggles? And that the actual kabloom itself was purely Pettigrew's spell.

The Harry Potter wiki seems to back me up on this: "On 1 November, 1981, Peter Pettigrew may have used an extremely powerful blasting curse to decimate a street and kill twelve Muggles at once while evading Sirius Black, who was blamed for the crimes and Pettigrew's alleged death. The explosion was so fierce, it left a massive crater in the street, with the pipes showing. The Ministry gave an excuse of a "gas leak" to the surviving Muggles, and thought that Black was the one who used the curse."

Assuming he must have hit a gas line seems to me an unwarranted supposition.

Considering that makes it well over double the power of even Voldemort's, a SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful wizard in every portrayal but, own blasting curses which he used at least 3 of, missing, on a fleeing Harry. It is not suppossition that there were circumstances in the environment that augmented the curse. Unless we're to "suppose" that Pettigrew is stronger than Voldemort?

Also I've still yet to see those quotes of Dumbledore using Apparition in combat.

Unless I see some, it will be, at least from my point in the argument. A concession that he can't.

What is has been shown is not apparition (Lacking the distinctive pop), and is SIGNIFICANTLY slower given that it takes an instant and he has to do the cloak whirling thing (or he wouldn't do it.), which takes significantly longer than it does for Yoda to bisect him with a lightsaber.

People are also assuming that Dumbledore can do ALL magic without his wand... that isn't really shown at all, the guy still carries it around and uses it. If he was truly wandless for combat applications he wouldn't even bother. Yes he has the Elder Wand, but that point is moot given we're talking about his ability to do magic without a wand as opposed to how well.

Bulldog Psion
2012-07-09, 12:25 AM
Seems to me that if Yoda can really push hard at the start, he has a good chance of winning. If he blows that, though, the advantage shifts steadily to Dumbledore the longer the fight continues.

Yoda's relatively a one-trick guy -- close fast and kill with the lightsaber. He's damned formidable with that trick, but the longer it goes on, the more the wizard has the chance to set up something that Yoda just can't counter, and goes down.

So, the whole fight really depends on whether or not Dumbledore can evade the first "incoming trailer truck" attack of Yoda.

I'd give Yoda a totally unofficial 60% to 70% of winning in the first split (literally) second. After that, I'd call it pretty much even.

Mystic Muse
2012-07-09, 12:43 AM
I think the main problem is, if Yoda can go anywhere near as fast and Fan says, as long as he doesn't provide Dumbledore with a clear target, there's no way Dumbledore is hitting him with a single target spell.

Plus, Force Precognition means Dumbledore would have a hard time hitting him regardless.

Even if Dumbledore uses a shield, it's very unlikely it would hold up to a lightsaber. Unless the shield is completely uncuttable by the lightsaber (In which case, this isn't even a fight if Yoda can't actually do anything to Dumbledore), nothing would reasonably defend against it. If a lightsaber can cut through blast doors like a hot knife through butter, there's no reason it couldn't cut through a magic shield.

So, Dumbledore has to continually react fast enough in response to Yoda to live, and his only spellcasting options are Area of Effect type spells because Yoda would move too fast to be hit by any spells that go in straight lines.

Psyren
2012-07-09, 01:42 AM
Dumbledore can teleport, he did so in the duel with Voldemort at the ministry as well a in other books just to travel around. Dumbledore can turn invisible, it was mentioned when people were confused about why he had James' invisiblity cloak, Dumbledore can transfigure Yoda into a small helpless animal or inanimate object, this hasn't been demonstrated in a book or movie to my knowledge but if Madeye could Dumbledore probably could.

Yoda can chock things up with a laser sword, Dumbledore can teleport away. Yoda can move things around with the force, Dumbledore can mimic this with summoning, banishing and hover charms. Yoda can say wise things, so can Dumbledore.

I think who wins is kind of obvious.

This. And Dumbledore can do all this without saying a word of warning.

Jedi "spider-sense" seems very unreliable judging by all the times we've seen Jedi get skewered and blasted. Certainly it didn't help any of them against Order 66.

Xondoure
2012-07-09, 02:09 AM
Just for the record, yes, wizards teleport in combat. And fast enough to avoid incoming spells, so that's pretty good reflexes on their part.

Quote and citation below.
Not here cause quote, click the green arrow.

Incidentally, Voldemort uses the same tactic a couple pages later.

I've no intention to really get into this debate, but I'm pretty willing to cite HP stuff if it's asked for. I have all the books and a fair memory.

PS - Yes, the HP wizards can fly without broomsticks. Or at least Voldemort can. It's kinda made a big deal out of though, so it's unlikely it is a common thing. Snape flies later as well, but it's kinda unclear how he does it- it might have been some kind of transformation as opposed to whatever Voldemort does.
If you want specific quotes on those two, I can provide.

So Fan, the evidence was given for teleport. As for the blasting curse, that isn't the only time it's used to great effect. It takes out a wing of Hogwarts along with a Weasley. :smallfrown: So now it's your turn. Show me proof that Voldemort was using that particular spell, and not just exploding things with Avada Kedavra (which is much less effective against the non living.) Dumbledore used a lot of Area of Effect Spells. From that silver shield (which I suspect is the strongest defensive spell we see) to controlling fire (Easy way to corner the green moblin.) Dumbledore can mute all sound (simple enough charm) and become totally invisible. Yoda would still be able to sense attacks but couple this with teleporting around the battlefield, and the area control a powerful wizard like Dumbledore has at his disposal… Oh, and before I forget Immobulus is an area of effect immobilization spell. Sure, the Force would allow him to shrug it off, but would it do so in time to avoid being transfigured into Kermit the Frog?

Fan
2012-07-09, 04:12 AM
So Fan, the evidence was given for teleport. As for the blasting curse, that isn't the only time it's used to great effect. It takes out a wing of Hogwarts along with a Weasley. :smallfrown: So now it's your turn. Show me proof that Voldemort was using that particular spell, and not just exploding things with Avada Kedavra (which is much less effective against the non living.) Dumbledore used a lot of Area of Effect Spells. From that silver shield (which I suspect is the strongest defensive spell we see) to controlling fire (Easy way to corner the green moblin.) Dumbledore can mute all sound (simple enough charm) and become totally invisible. Yoda would still be able to sense attacks but couple this with teleporting around the battlefield, and the area control a powerful wizard like Dumbledore has at his disposal… Oh, and before I forget Immobulus is an area of effect immobilization spell. Sure, the Force would allow him to shrug it off, but would it do so in time to avoid being transfigured into Kermit the Frog?

Dumbledore can't react fast enough to get any of these off. His normal human reactions wont allow him to attack or defend fast enough to be of any use.

He has .26 - .32 seconds to work with, in a third of a second can he do any of his spells he has ever been shown to do that would help him?

Because quite frankly, he wont be able to get out of the way, and he'll be cut in half before any of this comes into play.

Also, again, if we're magically giving him access to every spell, Yoda gets every force power. Force Crush, GG. Or he pushes Dumbledore into the air hard enough to crush rock, literally pulping him.

All STILL faster than he can react.

I am not arguing Dumbledore does not have the utility to make this a fight if he can react. The problem is, he cannot, teleportation is still limited by the wand movements / wandless magic incantation / physical movements he would have to take, and he does not have time to do this.

At all.

Xondoure
2012-07-09, 05:09 AM
It isn't the same. Because Dumbledore logically should be expected to know these spells, considering they are a part of a full wizarding education. The EU however has so many secret techniques and strange bloodlines that not every force power is available to Yoda, and that's not even considering all the dark side / other force tradition techniques that crop up. I am not suggesting Dumbledore uses Sectumsempra, because it is highly unlikely that spell would be known, it being the Half Blood Prince's signature attack. Nor am I saying he transforms into a phoenix, because he isn't a phoenix animagus as far as we know (I'm pretty sure his brother is a goat one, but that's a different topic.)

And yes that's enough time for a nonverbal spell caster, combat time often necessitates second reactions, and this is true for Harry Potter wizards as well. When it comes down to it a quarter of a second is more than enough time for an experienced duelist to think "get me out of here" or "stop the green blur" and be on his merry way. Once Dumbledore teleports, he can lengthen the reaction time for the following attack by several seconds, which is time enough to start pushing Yoda on to the defensive. The thing is that either of these combatants get's one good hit in and the match is over. So I'm going to give it to the wizard that can control the battlefield, over the spellsword with a good reflex save.

Fan
2012-07-09, 05:34 AM
It isn't the same. Because Dumbledore logically should be expected to know these spells, considering they are a part of a full wizarding education. The EU however has so many secret techniques and strange bloodlines that not every force power is available to Yoda, and that's not even considering all the dark side / other force tradition techniques that crop up. I am not suggesting Dumbledore uses Sectumsempra, because it is highly unlikely that spell would be known, it being the Half Blood Prince's signature attack. Nor am I saying he transforms into a phoenix, because he isn't a phoenix animagus as far as we know (I'm pretty sure his brother is a goat one, but that's a different topic.)

And yes that's enough time for a nonverbal spell caster, combat time often necessitates second reactions, and this is true for Harry Potter wizards as well. When it comes down to it a quarter of a second is more than enough time for an experienced duelist to think "get me out of here" or "stop the green blur" and be on his merry way. Once Dumbledore teleports, he can lengthen the reaction time for the following attack by several seconds, which is time enough to start pushing Yoda on to the defensive. The thing is that either of these combatants get's one good hit in and the match is over. So I'm going to give it to the wizard that can control the battlefield, over the spellsword with a good reflex save.

No. It's not enough time. Pull out a stop watch, and think "I need to get away.", it takes longer than that.

In every representation every spell takes AT LEAST a second to cast, even non verbal ones like Dumbledore's Invisibility spell, even Apparition, even everything in the Harry Potter Universe.

The ONLY non verbal spells we have seen as well are a form of teleportation that requires a gesture of spinning before vanishing, too slow to use, invisibility which requires an incantation, and given he isn't constantly invisible while fighting it also requires focus.

There is no evidence what so ever of him having the reaction time, or speed to get away in time.

Now unless you can post something where Dumbledore reacts in less than a third of a second, he simply does not have the feats.

And again, the third of a second thing is for canonically MUCH slower characters, the basis of Yoda's lightsaber form Ataru (Hawk Bat form), involves using the force to augment one's own combat prowess so it stands to reason on top of Yoda's already higher force knowledge and skill that he'd be even faster than that.

However, there isn't enough material to figure out exactly how fast.

Dumbledore is too slow. He has base human reactions, and cannot fight someone on Yoda's level.

If he teleports away? Force Pull.

Becomes invisible? Force sense.

Slings an AOE? Force Absorb, and then slings it back.

Animates constructs? Force Wave.

There's nothing he can do, Force Absorb isn't secular to single target spells it stops lightning and force wave as well HUGE aoe effects, and light saber / quick movements parry / dodge those as well.

Even if Dumbledore went MASSIVELY out of character and used the forbidden curses, it wouldn't work, because again Force Absorb has absorbed MUCH higher power destructive energies, and Yoda has a lot more experience in using the force to resist mind effecting attacks (Sith Sorcery uses dark side illusions / force phantoms.)

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 05:53 AM
Wrong. Only one ending can be canon, because the two endings contradict each other.

Cherry picking of facts. The originator of the books sanctioned the ending making it canon.


Also, the books would naturally be a higher canon than the movies, so if something happens in the movies that doesn't happen in the books, it should be disregarded.

There is no canon HP canon policy, unlike Star Wars or Trek; thus invalidating this ridiculous comment.


It doesn't matter if a creator helped with an adaptation.

Dishonest claim, and in short it most certainly does.


J. K. Rowling gained creative control on the film series


That doesn't make the adaptation just as much canon as the original work, especially when the adaptation contradicts the original work.

Non-sequitur. It does when she had creative control.


Now, if you have some sort of statement saying the movies are considered a higher canon than the books by J.K. Rowling, then fine, but otherwise the books should be considered a higher canon than the adaptations.

There is no canon policy, which means either OP makes up his mind which are to be used, or if both then contradictions dealt with on a case-by-case basis. It is very simple. Stop making baseless dishonest statements.


What is has been shown is not apparition (Lacking the distinctive pop)

Sorry but it basically works as teleportation and no amount of making faux statements will change that, now there are what amounts to several methods, apparition, portkey, or floo.



People are also assuming that Dumbledore can do ALL magic without his wand... that isn't really shown at all, the guy still carries it around and uses it.

Yet he can still do wandless on some ocassions.

Xondoure
2012-07-09, 06:00 AM
No. It's not enough time.

In every representation every spell takes AT LEAST a second to cast, even non verbal ones like Dumbledore's Invisibility spell, even Apparition, even everything in the Harry Potter Universe.

The ONLY non verbal spells we have seen as well are a form of teleportation that requires a gesture of spinning before vanishing, too slow to use, invisibility which requires an incantation, and given he isn't constantly invisible while fighting it also requires focus.

There is no evidence what so ever of him having the reaction time, or speed to get away in time.

Now unless you can post something where Dumbledore reacts in less than a third of a second, he simply does not have the feats.

And again, the third of a second thing is for canonically MUCH slower characters, the basis of Yoda's lightsaber form Ataru (Hawk Bat form), involves using the force to augment one's own combat prowess so it stands to reason on top of Yoda's already higher force knowledge and skill that he'd be even faster than that.

However, there isn't enough material to figure out exactly how fast.

Dumbledore is too slow. He has base human reactions, and cannot fight someone on Yoda's level.

If he teleports away? Force Pull.

Becomes invisible? Force sense.

Slings an AOE? Force Absorb, and then slings it back.

Animates constructs? Force Wave.

There's nothing he can do, Force Absorb isn't secular to single target spells it stops lightning and force wave as well HUGE aoe effects, and light saber / quick movements parry / dodge those as well.

Even if Dumbledore went MASSIVELY out of character and used the forbidden curses, it wouldn't work, because again Force Absorb has absorbed MUCH higher power destructive energies, and Yoda has a lot more experience in using the force to resist mind effecting attacks (Sith Sorcery uses dark side illusions / force phantoms.)

Alright how about Snape deftly flicking away Harry's spells before he could think them? Yes, this was a use of legilimency but it also required the speed to counter the spells with a thought. The big wand movements and fancy incantations are guides to magic. The more skilled you are, the less you need them. That is the whole point of nonverbal casting. And Dumbledore has the Elder Wand, so magic is that much easier. Besides which, we see characters such as Bellatrix countering three other characters at once. They might as well be throwing punches for all the amount of time and thought spells seem to take in duels. Now consider Dumbledore and Voldemort are on an entire level above this.

You are joking about Yoda having better versatility right? Force Powers are not going to win that war. Try to force pull Dumbledore and he'll merely teleport again and anchor himself next time upon arrival. Force sense is useful sure, but Occlumency to block his thoughts, a charm to mute his sound, and a second to turn invisible. All he has to do is stay downwind. Even then, detected or not it won't matter once dumbledore has his shield up. I doubt Yoda has much that is getting through Dumbledore's defenses, once again considering magical barriers have nothing for the lightsaber to cut through. Force Absorb? Did you see how much concentration that ability takes? Sling a giant fire ball at him. While he's busy absorbing it hit him with a different curse. If he drops his concentration to dodge, he'll be burned alive. If Potterverse wizards are anything, they are masters of versatility.

And concerning force absorbing the unforgivable... Imperio can be shrugged off but it takes time and effort, and usually results in the casted jerking out of it uncontrollably. This giving more than enough time to get a more harmful spell off. We don't really know enough about Crucio to know it can be blocked by shutting the mind off to pain. For all we know it attacks your brain directly and you don't get a say in it. As for absorbing Avada Kedavra... I think you're under the misconception that because it only lights statues on fire it isn't that powerful. It's target is life force. When it hits, it severs it. Yes, Yoda could probably dodge it (unless you know, he was temporarily immobilized.) No he's not going to be able to absorb it. The only thing strong enough to stop it is the ancient power of love and sacrifice. Sacrifice being the key word there.

I mean really, you conceded two posts ago that Dumbledore has the edge in utility, and then a post later you're arguing that it isn't true? :smallconfused:

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 06:05 AM
In every representation every spell takes AT LEAST a second to cast, even non verbal ones like Dumbledore's Invisibility spell, even Apparition, even everything in the Harry Potter Universe.

Rubbish. It does not take a second to say some spells, less even.


The ONLY non verbal spells we have seen as well are a form of teleportation that requires a gesture of spinning before vanishing, too slow to use, invisibility which requires an incantation, and given he isn't constantly invisible while fighting it also requires focus.

Or you know when he left Hogwarts in the film.


If he teleports away? Force Pull.

This is a retarded statement unless Yoda can force pull from whatever distance Dumbly is, and it need not be twenty meters and could be much farther.


Slings an AOE? Force Absorb, and then slings it back.

Baseles claim isn't it Sci-Fi fan?


Even if Dumbledore went MASSIVELY out of character and used the forbidden curses, it wouldn't work, because again Force Absorb has absorbed MUCH higher power destructive energies, and Yoda has a lot more experience in using the force to resist mind effecting attacks (Sith Sorcery uses dark side illusions / force phantoms.)

Yoda struggled with Force lightning which is really not all that powerful in movies and CGI TCW. Compared to some of the spells which make them pale in comparison.

Fan
2012-07-09, 06:15 AM
Rubbish. It does not take a second to say some spells, less even.



Or you know when he left Hogwarts in the film.



This is a retarded statement unless Yoda can force pull from whatever distance Dumbly is, and it need not be twenty meters and could be much farther.



Baseles claim isn't it Sci-Fi fan?



None of which Yoda has shown the capability to absorp, stop making crap up.

Large AOE's of lightning, life absorbing force drain has been shown to be absorb, force push so kinetic force can be absorbed.

It's been shown to handle blaster bolts, and Jedi in general have been able to do this.

Now please, pull out a stopwatch and say CONFUIGO! or STUPEFY! as fast as you can. I can garuntee you it takes more than .26 of a second.

I'll even provide you the tools. (http://www.online-stopwatch.com/)

The fastest I got was for STUPEFY at .333 seconds, STILL too slow.

Xondoure
2012-07-09, 06:15 AM
Rubbish. It does not take a second to say some spells, less even.

Or you know when he left Hogwarts in the film.

This is a retarded statement unless Yoda can force pull from whatever distance Dumbly is, and it need not be twenty meters and could be much farther.

Baseles claim isn't it Sci-Fi fan?

None of which Yoda has shown the capability to absorp, stop making crap up.

Rogerd, as exasperating as these threads can get (on both sides) it is best to remain civil. The purpose of the thread being to have fun discussing popular fictional characters after all. Basically, it only hurts your argument when you start calling the other sides case crap.

Edit: Fan, that's why it's called nonverbal spell casting.

Edit 2: And please don't ignore the rest of the arguments I made. I would like to see them addressed.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 06:20 AM
Large AOE's of lightning, life absorbing force drain has been shown to be absorb, force push so kinetic force can be absorbed.

Not seen in films or TCW. So......


Now please, pull out a stopwatch and say CONFUIGO! or STUPEFY! as fast as you can. I can garuntee you it takes more than .26 of a second.

Did you actually watch HP, at all? As in all the battles with Dumbledore, Snape etc they don't say a word when they cast, not a one - not during battle anyway.


Rogerd, as exasperating as these threads can get (on both sides) it is best to remain civil. The purpose of the thread being to have fun discussing popular fictional characters after all. Basically, it only hurts your argument when you start calling the other sides case crap.

Already edited actually

Fan
2012-07-09, 06:25 AM
Again, not EVERY SPELL is capable of being cast non verbally, otherwise Dumbledore would use every spell non verbally.

His first reaction is ALSO not going to be to teleport away, if the only way you win is to keep running away from a faster character who you can't hit then you aren't winning.

I also believe battle field ring out, self inflicted or otherwise, is grounds for a loss. If Dumbledore has to leave the fight to win it, he's not winning that fight.

And again, Force Absorb would catch, and redirect it, Yoda has caught lightning, and reacted to blaster bolts which are INFINITELY faster than any Harry Potter spell can claim to be.

Yoda, again, can reflect most conventional spells, just because they do not have a visible effect does not mean that Force Sense would not be able to tell him where these explosions / Aoe's would happen.

Also the ability for these AOE's to hit are completely based around Dumbledore being able to focus in on Yoda, and track him, not likely given Yoda's speed, and his ability to keep forcing Dumbledore to teleport away with his force powers by virtue of moving his hands / body / mind faster than Dumbledore can.

There's nothing that he can do that would so much as trip Yoda up, he can generally try to lead his AIM, but Yoda can also use force powers, toss his saber, pull Dumbledore closer forcing him to devote his power towards teleporting again.

Mind trick him (Yoda has proven to be able to mind trick even seasoned military tacticians.), use the terrain to crush Dumbledore.

The man can't even react to his attacks, you still have to THINK the incantations, and wandless magic is far from all encompassing and it seems to be entirely defensive.

Force Pull is effective from a distance of more than 20 meters ALL THE TIME, and teleporting farther away just gives Yoda more distance with which to dodge spells, sure he can keep teleporting away, but Dumbledore's resistance is more likely to run out before Yoda's due to Yoda having A: The Force to aide him, and B: The man is still capable of battling thousands of battle droids, and operating as a frontline combatant during The Clone wars.

Also, Roger, you're seriously saying Force Absorb hasn't absorbed lightning in the movies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUlqDMcS_RE&feature=player_detailpage#t=229s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUlqDMcS_RE&feature=player_detailpage)


Also saying that Protego can't be broken through is a no limits fallacy, there are spells that break it, and their physical impact is reflected by their interaction with the environment, ergo, sufficient kinetic energy can break through the barrier. Lightsabers cut through things that stop the same spells. Ergo, Light Sabers can cut through magical barriers.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 06:31 AM
Again, not EVERY SPELL is capable of being cast non verbally, otherwise Dumbledore would use every spell non verbally.

Prove where he used a verbal spell in direct combat.


His first reaction is ALSO not going to be to teleport away, if the only way you win is to keep running away from a faster character who you can't hit then you aren't winning.

Not too good at strategy are you? You fight to your strengths, not the opponents.


And again, Force Absorb would catch, and redirect it, Yoda has caught lightning, and reacted to blaster bolts which are INFINITELY faster than any Harry Potter spell can claim to be.

Prove that blasters are faster. We see them, yet only see the flash of a spell.


Yoda, again, can reflect most conventional spells, just because they do not have a visible effect does not mean that Force Sense would not be able to tell him where these explosions / Aoe's would happen.

Possibly.....


Also the ability for these AOE's to hit are completely based around Dumbledore being able to focus in on Yoda, and track him, not likely given Yoda's speed

Yoda is not that fast as seen with Force Speed in PM.


and his ability to keep forcing Dumbledore to teleport away with his force powers by virtue of moving his hands / body / mind faster than Dumbledore can.

Baseless claim.


There's nothing that he can do that would so much as trip Yoda up, he can generally try to lead his AIM, but Yoda can also use force powers, toss his saber, pull Dumbledore closer forcing him to devote his power towards teleporting again.

Or you know Dumbledore could use one of innumerable spells in his reporoire.


Mind trick him (Yoda has proven to be able to mind trick even seasoned military tacticians.), use the terrain to crush Dumbledore.

Prove that Yoda can overcome occlumancy.


The man can't even react to his attacks, you still have to THINK the incantations, and wandless magic is far from all encompassing and it seems to be entirely defensive.

Baseless claim.


Also, Roger, you're seriously saying Force Absorb hasn't absorbed lightning in the movies?

Do you have reading problems, dishonest or just not too bright? At no point did I say that.

Yes you deserved that comment. What I actually said was:


Yoda struggled with Force lightning which is really not all that powerful in movies and CGI TCW. Compared to some of the spells which make them pale in comparison.


Lightsabers cut through things that stop the same spells. Ergo, Light Sabers can cut through magical barriers.

Funny that there are things a lightsaber cannot cut though, isn't it?

Fan
2012-07-09, 06:36 AM
You calling it baseless does not make it baseless.

You saying it does not, does not mean it does not.

Blaster's have been shown to be MANY times the speed of sound in actual engagements.

Here's SOME MORE MATHS.



Frame before firing:

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8743/jangoblastbx3.jpg

First Frame of Firing:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3929/jangoboltmi1.jpg

Very Next frame:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8751/jangobolt2nw6.jpg

Distance looks about 10 metres, so that's 125m/s, or, as per your request, 279mph. I.e. it took .08 of a second for the bolt to travel that far (25 frames per second, 2 frames, 2/25 = .08 of a second)



Bam, Blaster Bolts are faster than spells, and that is one of the lowest end blaster speed calc's I could've done.

If I had used Genonsis, it would've put it into the Kilometer / Second range.

Now let's take this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjJjgtU5Okc, and count the amount of bolts he blocks per second.

Also, please stop pretending you didn't just edit that post.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 06:42 AM
You calling it baseless does not make it baseless.

It does when you make a claim without any proof, at all, or seem to cherry pick facts.


You saying it does not, does not mean it does not.

Double negative which means it does ;)


Blaster's have been shown to be MANY times the speed of sound in actual engagements.

The only time you could make that claim is in space spattles, nowhere else.


Here's SOME MORE MATHS.

Maths....hardly it is a pure guesstimate, nothing else.


Distance looks about 10 metres

Your maths are bebunked with the statement above, Sci-Fi Fan. It's a guess!


Bam, Blaster Bolts are faster than spells, and that is one of the lowest end blaster speed calc's I could've done.

Funny that you don't see the spells in HP, at least during combat isn't it? Yet you seem to cherry pick your facts, again and again.

In short your whole argument is nothing but a whole series of logical fallacies.

Fan
2012-07-09, 06:44 AM
I don't know what bebunked is.. but I imagine it has nothing to do with the argument, and a 10 meter distance is entirely fair to go by with that screen shot. It's not even remotely overshooting the distance.

And there's nothing guesstimate about it, you're just being obtuse.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 06:47 AM
I don't know what bebunked is

Go get a dictionary and look it up Sci-Fi.


And there's nothing guesstimate about it, you're just being obtuse.

Funny that you even said it was a guess - see below.


Distance looks about 10 metres

In short you're being dishonest in your claims, evidence and ignoring of facts.

Fan
2012-07-09, 06:51 AM
Go get a dictionary and look it up Sci-Fi.



Funny that you even said it was a guess - see below.



In short you're being dishonest in your claims, evidence and ignoring of facts.

I don't see it in Webster, or any other dictionaries, it was a jab made at the fact that you seemed to think it witty to attack grammar, however incorrectly.

And again, 10 meters isn't being at all unfair in that situation. You can turn his light saber on it's side, with it's canon length, and measure it out if you like.

The calculations themselves are not a guess, they are based on real math, and are more credible than anything you have said in this entire thread.

Traab
2012-07-09, 06:54 AM
I always get amused by this when it happens, mainly because it happens alot. Two guys start arguing about something, neither one wants to admit they are wrong, so eventually it turns into a fight with actual anger on both sides. Its not even about fanboy geekdom, this could be an argument over toothpaste brands. I wonder if anyone is truly immune to this effect. At least on message boards its easier to step back. Its also amusing to see when that happens, now this is something I admit to being guilty of. I find I cant directly refute the argument used against me, so I dont reply, but continue to follow the topic, until someone else says something I can either agree with and expand on, or someone says something wrong I can jump all over and feel superior and correct again. Way harder to do that irl.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 06:57 AM
I don't see it in Webster, or any other dictionaries, it was a jab made at the fact that you seemed to think it witty to attack grammar, however incorrectly.

Well there are plenty others.


The calculations themselves are not a guess, they are based on real math, and are more credible than anything you have said in this entire thread.

Pffft!

Credible maths is irrelvent when the facts theyt are based on are pure guesswork. So unless you know the exact distance.....

Plus its funny that you have ignored all the arguments put against you....quite laughable really.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 07:02 AM
Now here is teh video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K4PAXgBxyQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDtiEPoT2c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDtiEPoT2c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URbvT_pkAjI&feature=related

Now tell me how Yoda is going to fight apparitions that can move liek they do in here.

Fan
2012-07-09, 07:14 AM
Non canon.

I'm not going to debate with you if you wont allow me to use non movie sources when you use sources that clearly contradict book events.

Hypocrisy.

In fact, I'll use EU sources anyways because I clearly should have been since the start.

Bam, Mace Windu's reactions are light speed, and Yoda is stated to be his equal in swordsmanship. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpa6tb9fhW4&feature=relmfu)

T canon is still canon, it is not non canon (N Canon), and as it's events are divided from the movies there are no contradictions. That weapon is a confirmed laser.

It also has instances of Yoda using force wave to force an entire bridge full of Super Battle Droids away.

Edit: Proof Yoda is the best Duelist: Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA&feature=player_embedded)

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 07:18 AM
Non canon.

And you'll be able to state HP canon then? With citations and links?


I'm not going to debate with you if you wont allow me to use non original sources when you use sources that clearly contradict book events.

Ignoring evidence, again. This seems to be your stock-in-trade doesn't it? I clearly posted that JK had creative control over the films, thus making them canon.

Fan
2012-07-09, 07:23 AM
And you'll be able to state HP canon then? With citations and links?



Ignoring evidence, again. This seems to be your stock-in-trade doesn't it? I clearly posted that JK had creative control over the films, thus making them canon.

And Lucas Films has control over The Clone Wars cartoon.

Your point?

I don't CARE if she did or not, it contradicts the books.

Also here's something from the Revenge of the Sith novel:


The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell.
He fell a long way.
The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod's rail. Old he might have been, but there was nothing wrong with his eyesight; he scanned the wreckage below, and he did not see a body. He flicked a finger, and in the Chancellor's Podium a dozen meters away, a switch tripped and sirens sounded throughout the enormous building; another surge of the Force sent his pod streaking in a downward spiral to the holding office at the base of the Podium tower. Clone troops were already swarming into it. "It was Yoda," he said as he swung out of the pod. "Another assassination attempt. Find him and kill him. If you have to, blow up the building." He didn't have time to direct the search personally. The Force hummed a warning in his bones: Lord Vader was in danger. Mortal danger. Clones scattered. He stopped one officer. "You. Call the shuttle dock and tell them I'm on my way. Have my ship warmed and ready." The officer saluted, and Palpatine, with vigor that surprised even himself, ran.
With the help of the Force, Yoda sprinted along the service accessway below the Arena faster than a human being could run; he sliced conduits as he passed, filling the accessway behind him with coils of high-voltage cables, twisting and spitting lightning. Every few dozen meters, he paused just long enough to slash a hole in the accessway's wall; once his pursuers got past the cables, they would have to divide their forces to search each of his possible exits.


Resisting Decompression:


Lights flickered on throughout the Last Call, and a deep humming throb began to build in her engines. The ship scraped across the docking bay floor blind, gathering speed, and then with a deafening metal scream, punched into the space station wall. The Call jerked through the opening and tore free a shower of transparisteel, insulation, and sparking wires. She picked up speed, angling away from the station as her preliminary thrusters kicked in.
Explosive decompression sucked all the air out of the docking bay, plucking chairs, papers, tools, small craft, and most importantly the four assassin droids, and flinging them into the black vault of space. The howling wind nearly jerked Chuff out of the lift tube to follow them, but Master Yoda's hand held him back. A pocket of air remained in the lift, held there by Yoda's will.
Out in the dark of space, the assassin droids spun, tumbling slowly as they drifted farther and farther away, until their erratic blasterfire was only the twinkling of distant lights.


Catching Lightning:


Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.
"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned—but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."
"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered. "Even you, my old Master!" More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.
"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.
Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault.


Force Concealment:


Luke sensed a human presence there moments before his danger-trained eye picked out the dull metal of another speeder concealed in the shadows of a broken foundation. He drew around himself the aura of advanced inconspicuousness that Yoda had spoken about and that later Callista, recalling her own training, had taught him: Beyond a doubt the same means by which old Ben had wandered around the Death Star utterly unnoticed by the most highly trained troops of the Empire.

--Taken from Planet of Twilight


Reactions to Attacks that can't be perceived:



Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming.

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous



Telepathy:



ooku saw that he had been tricked. He had no doubt now that he and Lorian had been made team captains deliberately. The Jedi Council had wanted to pit them against each other to see how deep the tensions were.
"Tricked you were not," Yoda said, as if he'd read Dooku's thoughts.

--Taken from Legacy of the Jedi

Dooku's slow pace spoke of an underlying arrogance and was in sharp contrast to the briskness of his invasion into Obi-Wan's mind. Obi-Wan bit back a gasp and fled, trying to set new mental barriers in his wake. He'd had other Force users in his mind before. Qui-Gon. Anakin. Even Master Yoda. But where their touches had been gentle, almost a caress, Dooku's was painful and humiliating.

--Taken from Precipice



Stopping a Star Ship using full engine power to Ram someone:



Yoda squeaked and puffed out his round cheeks with the sudden effort of using the Force to keep the Call from crushing Chuff into a grease spot on the decking bay floor. "Step back!" he barked.

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous



Statements Regarding him being the most powerful Jedi:


.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


Deflecting a blaster bolt with the force without touching it:



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1848717-new_picture__6_.jpg



Doing as such, again:



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1937146-new_picture__11_.jpg

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 07:24 AM
I don't CARE if she did or not, it contradicts the books.

Irrevelant. Either prove HP canon policy or accept the films as is. Very. Simple.

ThePhantasm
2012-07-09, 07:28 AM
How can two contradictory things both be canon?

Traab
2012-07-09, 07:29 AM
Both of you back down. Or do you not even realize you are going to end up with a locked topic and an entire page consisting of nothing but your posts getting scrubbed? Lord knows how many infraction points you will both end up with as this is getting way too close to personal attacks, and in fact has slipped into that realm more than once.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 07:30 AM
How can two contradictory things both be canon?

Basically some differences between book and film HP verse.


Bam, Mace Windu's reactions are light speed, and Yoda is stated to be his equal in swordsmanship.

Time frame for the alleged lightspeed reactions.


T canon is still canon, it is not non canon (N Canon), and as it's events are divided from the movies there are no contradictions. That weapon is a confirmed laser.

Lightpseed reactions would definitely be contradicted by the movie as physiologically impossible.


It also has instances of Yoda using force wave to force an entire bridge full of Super Battle Droids away.

Timeframe?

Killer Angel
2012-07-09, 07:39 AM
How can two contradictory things both be canon?

It's the bread and butter of almost all the WH40K universe... :smalltongue:

Fan
2012-07-09, 07:40 AM
Lasers are light speed. This is a fact as they are focused light.

He blocks, and consistently redirects a laser. Ergo, lightspeed, or near enough to.

The comic's above also show the rock crushing force that Yoda casually puts out with his force push.

As for getting scrubbed, I would trust that the moderators would at least acknowledge that I've not resorted to name calling, flamebaiting, or any other rules violating offenses when they look at who to scrub.

While I disagree with RogerD, I'm merely posting facts, and he is simply.. refusing them.

Again, Jedi aren't limited by human reactions, running as fast as a car would technically tear you apart, as would putting out enough force to break steel with your fists.

EDIT: Also a Superbattle Droid's main weaponry is a mini laser cannon, so again, further light speed reaction proof.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 07:51 AM
And Lucas Films has control over The Clone Wars cartoon.

Your point?

I don't CARE if she did or not, it contradicts the books.

Also here's something from the Revenge of the Sith novel:


The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell.
He fell a long way.
The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod's rail. Old he might have been, but there was nothing wrong with his eyesight; he scanned the wreckage below, and he did not see a body. He flicked a finger, and in the Chancellor's Podium a dozen meters away, a switch tripped and sirens sounded throughout the enormous building; another surge of the Force sent his pod streaking in a downward spiral to the holding office at the base of the Podium tower. Clone troops were already swarming into it. "It was Yoda," he said as he swung out of the pod. "Another assassination attempt. Find him and kill him. If you have to, blow up the building." He didn't have time to direct the search personally. The Force hummed a warning in his bones: Lord Vader was in danger. Mortal danger. Clones scattered. He stopped one officer. "You. Call the shuttle dock and tell them I'm on my way. Have my ship warmed and ready." The officer saluted, and Palpatine, with vigor that surprised even himself, ran.
With the help of the Force, Yoda sprinted along the service accessway below the Arena faster than a human being could run; he sliced conduits as he passed, filling the accessway behind him with coils of high-voltage cables, twisting and spitting lightning. Every few dozen meters, he paused just long enough to slash a hole in the accessway's wall; once his pursuers got past the cables, they would have to divide their forces to search each of his possible exits.


Resisting Decompression:


Lights flickered on throughout the Last Call, and a deep humming throb began to build in her engines. The ship scraped across the docking bay floor blind, gathering speed, and then with a deafening metal scream, punched into the space station wall. The Call jerked through the opening and tore free a shower of transparisteel, insulation, and sparking wires. She picked up speed, angling away from the station as her preliminary thrusters kicked in.
Explosive decompression sucked all the air out of the docking bay, plucking chairs, papers, tools, small craft, and most importantly the four assassin droids, and flinging them into the black vault of space. The howling wind nearly jerked Chuff out of the lift tube to follow them, but Master Yoda's hand held him back. A pocket of air remained in the lift, held there by Yoda's will.
Out in the dark of space, the assassin droids spun, tumbling slowly as they drifted farther and farther away, until their erratic blasterfire was only the twinkling of distant lights.


Catching Lightning:


Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.
"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned—but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."
"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered. "Even you, my old Master!" More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.
"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.
Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault.


Force Concealment:


Luke sensed a human presence there moments before his danger-trained eye picked out the dull metal of another speeder concealed in the shadows of a broken foundation. He drew around himself the aura of advanced inconspicuousness that Yoda had spoken about and that later Callista, recalling her own training, had taught him: Beyond a doubt the same means by which old Ben had wandered around the Death Star utterly unnoticed by the most highly trained troops of the Empire.

--Taken from Planet of Twilight


Reactions to Attacks that can't be perceived:



Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming.

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous



Telepathy:



ooku saw that he had been tricked. He had no doubt now that he and Lorian had been made team captains deliberately. The Jedi Council had wanted to pit them against each other to see how deep the tensions were.
"Tricked you were not," Yoda said, as if he'd read Dooku's thoughts.

--Taken from Legacy of the Jedi

Dooku's slow pace spoke of an underlying arrogance and was in sharp contrast to the briskness of his invasion into Obi-Wan's mind. Obi-Wan bit back a gasp and fled, trying to set new mental barriers in his wake. He'd had other Force users in his mind before. Qui-Gon. Anakin. Even Master Yoda. But where their touches had been gentle, almost a caress, Dooku's was painful and humiliating.

--Taken from Precipice



Stopping a Star Ship using full engine power to Ram someone:



Yoda squeaked and puffed out his round cheeks with the sudden effort of using the Force to keep the Call from crushing Chuff into a grease spot on the decking bay floor. "Step back!" he barked.

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous



Statements Regarding him being the most powerful Jedi:


.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


Deflecting a blaster bolt with the force without touching it:



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1848717-new_picture__6_.jpg



Doing as such, again:



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1937146-new_picture__11_.jpg


Your blatant dishonesty is getting annoying and the fact you have to use EU is more proof of that. When EU allows for feats of throwing tie-fighters about like flotsam, which is not shown in films is clear evidence of contradiction.


He blocks, and consistently redirects a laser. Ergo, lightspeed, or near enough to.

Logical fallacy. Jedi have precog and the fact that you're claiming lightspeed reaction time is blatantly dishonest.


The comic's above also show the rock crushing force that Yoda casually puts out with his force push.

Are so far down canon and contradicted by G-canon that they can be ignored as outliers, sort of how Yoda struggled with Dooku in AotC, in both instances he had to concentrate and close his eyes to stop the large cylinder crushing Obi-Wan and Anakin.


While I disagree with RogerD, I'm merely posting facts, and he is simply.. refusing them.

Well....welll Sci-Fi Fan I see you have reverted to type....making lots of claims that can only be backed up by EU feats, most of which are not seen or contradicted in G-canon. No change there.

During this debate you've claimed disdain for Star Wars yet you argue like a rabid fanboy.

In fact I remember what Mith said to you, "Move on you fanboy"

Fan
2012-07-09, 07:55 AM
G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon.

The movie novelizations are G-Canon, as are any books published with Lucas Book Works.

Please stop name calling, I suggest a review of the Forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1) in regards to this boards policies on that.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 07:57 AM
The movie novelizations are G-Canon.

Never did I claim otherwise.....

Revenge of the Sith and AotC quotes are G-canon, the rest ain't.


Please stop name calling

Start backing claims up with actual facts then.....and not making dodgy hypothesis based on guesses, or using EU so that you're side will win.

Fan
2012-07-09, 07:58 AM
Never did I claim otherwise.....

Revenge of the Sith and AotC quotes are G-canon, the rest ain't.

Star Wars: Complete Encyclopedia is produced side by side with Lucas Book Works, and is thus G-Canon.

C-Canon is continuity canon, and is thus canon, which encompasses all books produced with license from Lucas book works / films.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 08:01 AM
Star Wars: Complete Encyclopedia is produced side by side with Lucas Book Works, and is thus G-Canon.

You evidence to back that up?


C-Canon is continuity canon, and is thus canon, which encompasses all books produced with license from Lucas book works / films.

Point, but unfortunately most of EU is contradicted by films and CGI TCW.

Fan
2012-07-09, 08:05 AM
You evidence to back that up?



Point, but unfortunately most of EU is contradicted by films and CGI TCW.

Doesn't matter, still canon.

I'm not going to argue against a point that's supported by GL himself who uses it, as said in the 2005 Starlog Interview:




But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."


As for the stuff for George Lucas Book works, well, the Encyclopedia is kinda made, published, written, and produced by them.

You don't seem to be understanding what a canon contradiction is, when something like a story is written, the only elements that are considered contradictions are elements wherein the story blatantly contradicts something that has already happened.

In order of there to be a contradiction, there has to be something that proves it ineffably wrong in the source material, and Yoda stopping a ship when he lifted an x-wing effortlessly, is not a contradiction.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 08:09 AM
You don't seem to be understanding what a canon contradiction is, when something like a story is written, the only elements that are considered contradictions are elements wherein the story blatantly contradicts something that has already happened.

I understand exactly what one is....thanks.


Doesn't matter, still canon.

Not if it clashes with G-canon it isn't.


In order of there to be a contradiction, there has to be something that proves it ineffably wrong in the source material, and Yoda stopping a ship when he lifted an x-wing effortlessly, is not a contradiction.

It is if he does so effortlessly it is, yes. It would be contradicted by TESB and AotC in which he had close his yes and concentrate.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 08:13 AM
Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnFe6wk3gDI&feature=related

2.32

Yoda does stop it effortlessly.

Again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt6E1-_vXQU

3.38.

Not effortless.

Fan
2012-07-09, 08:14 AM
I understand exactly what one is....thanks.



It is if he does so effortlessly it is, yes. It would be contradicted by TESB and AotC in which he had close his yes and concentrate.

Novelization of that incident disagrees.



Luke was drained and had to gasp for breath. "I can't," he said dejectedly. "It's too big."
"Size has no meaning," Yoda insisted. "It matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you?"
Luke, chastened, just shook his head.
"And well you shouldn't," the Jedi Master advised. For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it and makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter," he said as he pinched Luke's skin. Yoda made a grand sweeping gesture to indicate the vastness of the universe about him. "Feel it you must. Feel the flow. Feel the Force around you.Here," he said, as he pointed, "between you and me and that tree and that rock."
While Yoda gave his explanation of the Force, Artoo spun his head around, trying without success to register this "Force" on his scanners. He whistled and beeped in bafflement.
"Yes, everywhere," Yoda continued, ignoring the little droid, "waiting to be felt and used. Yes, even between this land and that ship!"
Then Yoda turned and looked at the swamp, and as he did the water began to swirl. Slowly, from the gently bubbling waters, the nose of the fighter appeared again. Luke gasped in astonishment as the X-wing gracefully rose from its watery tomb and moved majestically toward the shore. He silently vowed never to use the word "impossible" again. For there, standing on his tree root pedestal, was tiny Yoda, effortlessly gliding the ship from the water onto the shore. It was a sight that Luke could scarcely believe. But he knew that it was a potent example of Jedi mastery over the Force.
Artoo, equally astounded but not so philosophical, issued a series of loud whistles, then bolted off to hide behind some giant roots.
The X-wing seemed to float onto the beach, and then gently came to a stop. Luke was humbled by the feat he had witnessed and approached Yoda in awe. "I..." he began, dazzled. "I don't believe it."
"That," Yoda stated emphatically, "is why you fail." Bewildered, Luke shook his head, wondering if he would ever rise to the station of a Jedi.

Taken from-- The Empire Strikes Back.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 08:17 AM
Novelization of that incident disagree.



Luke was drained and had to gasp for breath. "I can't," he said dejectedly. "It's too big."
"Size has no meaning," Yoda insisted. "It matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you?"
Luke, chastened, just shook his head.
"And well you shouldn't," the Jedi Master advised. For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it and makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter," he said as he pinched Luke's skin. Yoda made a grand sweeping gesture to indicate the vastness of the universe about him. "Feel it you must. Feel the flow. Feel the Force around you.Here," he said, as he pointed, "between you and me and that tree and that rock."
While Yoda gave his explanation of the Force, Artoo spun his head around, trying without success to register this "Force" on his scanners. He whistled and beeped in bafflement.
"Yes, everywhere," Yoda continued, ignoring the little droid, "waiting to be felt and used. Yes, even between this land and that ship!"
Then Yoda turned and looked at the swamp, and as he did the water began to swirl. Slowly, from the gently bubbling waters, the nose of the fighter appeared again. Luke gasped in astonishment as the X-wing gracefully rose from its watery tomb and moved majestically toward the shore. He silently vowed never to use the word "impossible" again. For there, standing on his tree root pedestal, was tiny Yoda, effortlessly gliding the ship from the water onto the shore. It was a sight that Luke could scarcely believe. But he knew that it was a potent example of Jedi mastery over the Force.
Artoo, equally astounded but not so philosophical, issued a series of loud whistles, then bolted off to hide behind some giant roots.
The X-wing seemed to float onto the beach, and then gently came to a stop. Luke was humbled by the feat he had witnessed and approached Yoda in awe. "I..." he began, dazzled. "I don't believe it."
"That," Yoda stated emphatically, "is why you fail." Bewildered, Luke shook his head, wondering if he would ever rise to the station of a Jedi.

Taken from-- The Empire Strikes Back.



Unfortunate as the film disagrees and it automatically takes higher canon status, sorry Sci-Fi Fan. Now didn't Leo1 post something about novelisations being C-canon somewhere?

Fan
2012-07-09, 08:19 AM
Unfortunate as the film disagrees and it automatically takes higher canon status, sorry Sci-Fi Fan. Now didn't Leo1 post something about novelisations being C-canon somewhere?

Already posted that the Novelizations of the movies are equal canon to the movies.

And in this case, the novel is more specific, and provides more detail than the scene as to Yoda's mental state at the time.

Rogerd
2012-07-09, 08:23 AM
Already posted that the Novelizations of the movies are equal canon to the movies.

Unfortunately visuals show different and it was anything but effortless, plus there is the other video which also backs it up.

Fan
2012-07-09, 08:25 AM
Unfortunately visuals show different and it was anything but effortless, plus there is the other video which also backs it up.

Nope, novel provides more detail.

Roland St. Jude
2012-07-09, 02:45 PM
Sheriff: About a dozen posts were removed from this thread for being pointless negation and also flaming. Please keep it civil in this thread or we will have to throw you out of it or close it entirely.