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View Full Version : Magneto Vs. Voldemort



Kyberwulf
2012-07-07, 03:23 PM
Okay. Magneto managed to Band together all the mutants under his banner, and they all are following him.

Voldemort managed to defeat Harry and is poised to taken over the wizarding world...

Who would win now that they have turned their attentions to the non-mutant, muggles of the world.

Only one faction can stand to rule the world in their self image.

Fan
2012-07-07, 03:26 PM
Magneto babyshakes the entire HP Universe.

He's taken blows from Thor and She Hulk at the same time, both in energy form, and physical. His flight is hyper sonic, and he's a trained martial artist.

He can literally fly around PUNCHING them faster, and harder, than they can respond.

oblivion6
2012-07-07, 03:27 PM
voldemort of course. avada kedabra!

Xondoure
2012-07-07, 04:29 PM
Magneto babyshakes the entire HP Universe.

He's taken blows from Thor and She Hulk at the same time, both in energy form, and physical. His flight is hyper sonic, and he's a trained martial artist.

He can literally fly around PUNCHING them faster, and harder, than they can respond.

Okay Fan unless you can prove that spells are part of the electro magnetic spectrum I don't see how this can possibly be true. As has been said before character's power levels fluctuate so much in comics that the only way to deal with it is to handle their median power levels, not their uber ones. At least in my opinion, because too many characters have shattered reality at one time or another. That said Magneto isn't an easy foe to beat. However considering he doesn't usually go for a killing blow and that's all Voldemort does, I'm giving it to the wizarding world on this one. (Now there are plenty of Marvel characters that would roflstomp the wizarding world. I just don't think Magneto is necessarily one of them.)

Fan
2012-07-07, 04:33 PM
Okay Fan unless you can prove that spells are part of the electro magnetic spectrum I don't see how this can possibly be true. As has been said before character's power levels fluctuate so much in comics that the only way to deal with it is to handle their median power levels, not their uber ones. At least in my opinion, because too many characters have shattered reality at one time or another. That said Magneto isn't an easy foe to beat. However considering he doesn't usually go for a killing blow and that's all Voldemort does, I'm giving it to the wizarding world on this one. (Now there are plenty of Marvel characters that would roflstomp the wizarding world. I just don't think Magneto is necessarily one of them.)

No. Magneto roflstomps the wizarding world.

All of it. Without using his powers offensively aside from speed, and self amping.

Why? This right here should suffice. (http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t417866.html)

Magneto is hyper sonic, and can amp his own strength into the 100+ ton range.

He flies around, PUNCHING the Harry Potter Wizards. We can also remove the use of his legs for this and he still wins.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 06:52 PM
Fan's right Magneto is one of the top characters in comics period. Most people wh odon't read comics, they see him think movie verse magneto which is not even a tenth of his ability.

He commands one of the fundimental forces of the universe. and can go toe to toe with the like of Hulk, Thor and plenty others.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 07:00 PM
Mags can and has killed with a thought by sending an electromagnetic pulse into a person's brain frying them

Will that kill Voldy no but Mags is capable of blocking just about everything Voldemort can toss at him and give back worse.

Tvtyrant
2012-07-07, 07:13 PM
Heck, you could even give Voldemort like a spear and Magneto would still win.
Warning, incredibly outdated internet reference.
http://www.hrwiki.org/w/images/c/cf/StrongSadCheatFight.png

Seriously though, one asteroid strike on England and Voldy is dead. Magneto makes Tsar Bomba look tame when he wants.

Prime32
2012-07-07, 07:17 PM
Magneto is rarely depicted flying at hypersonic speed (outside of offscreen travel), but the man's done all kinds of insane stuff with magnetism over the years, including mind control, phasing through objects and creating portals. He's no lightweight. At the very least he should be able to create "magnetic barriers" to block Voldemort's spells.

KnightDisciple
2012-07-07, 07:18 PM
Okay. Magneto managed to Band together all the mutants under his banner, and they all are following him.

Voldemort managed to defeat Harry and is poised to taken over the wizarding world...

Who would win now that they have turned their attentions to the non-mutant, muggles of the world.

Only one faction can stand to rule the world in their self image.

Okay. I'm figuring we're making a couple of assumptions here.

1.)That Voldieshorts can be killed by someone besides Potter. At least, assuming his Phylacteries Horcruxes are destroyed.
2.)That Magneto has at least general knowledge of the capabilities of wizards, including thinks like the AK curse.


Honestly, Mags has had such a flux of followers, it's difficult to say how well he can matches Moldiewart's army. So I'm going to go with the two of them vs each other.

Magneto is an intelligent man, who happens to be a powerful mutant.
Voldemort is a powerful wizard who knows a lot of spells, but I'm not totally sure I'd call him "intelligent" (more a symptom of the wizarding world, really).

Now, there are 3 really big problem spells: AK, Imperius, Crucio.
Imperio. I'd say there's a good chance it's blocked by the helmet Magneto wears.
Crucio. Most problematic, actually. But electromagnetism means he may be able to lessen its effects on his body, which allows him to counter-attack (and thus cease the spell, as it requires concentration).
AK. It explicitly can be blocked by solid objects. Magneto just keeps a supply of sheet metal around. Bam, solid object.

As for offense from Magneto? I'd point to something similar to what he did in X-Men 2 in his escape; the bit where he flings ball bearings around at high speed. He gets like 30 of those going around, and Tommy-boy is in trouble.

Of course, Eric's gotta keep on the move and work defensively as well, using metal pieces, or even clouds of iron filings, to help block spells.

Personally, I lean toward Magneto, but it may well depend on who acts first in the fight. Definitely a tough fight either way.

Mr.Silver
2012-07-07, 07:26 PM
He's taken blows from Thor and She Hulk at the same time, both in energy form, and physical. His flight is hyper sonic, and he's a trained martial artist.


The problem with that is that the killing curse isn't lethal because it has a super-high power output or anything, it's lethal because it magically kills you - laws of physics be damned. Same with an awful lot of spells really, sure Mags is fast but if he gets hit by it- or indeed any of the incapacitating curses (again, magic) - he's looking a bit on the screwed side. While he may be well above most individual wizards, it's worth noting that when it comes to the rank and file wizards V mutants side of things it's looking quite heavily weighted in favour of the spell slingers - in both offensive capability and movement/logistics. The fewer mutants there are besides mags, the more shots there are coming at him and it only takes one lucky hit and he's probably out.
Also dementors. Voldemort has dementors, creatures which I don't think can actually be hurt by anything other than specific forms of magic. There's rather a lot of other unpleasant magical beasts kicking around the HP world too.

This is also assuming that mags and co don't count as muggles, because if they do then the wizards can just go around casting muggle-repelling charms on place they don't want the mutants to be able to attack, approach or even be aware exist.


Now, there are 3 really big problem spells: AK, Imperius, Crucio.
Actually there's way more. There are a number of other spells that will completely shut down anyone they hit (e.g. Petrifica Totalis) or at least put them on the back foot. The reason why the big 3 are treated that way in the potterverse is because they don't have any real counters.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 07:29 PM
Magneto is rarely depicted flying at hypersonic speed (outside of offscreen travel), but the man's done all kinds of insane stuff with magnetism over the years, including mind control, phasing through objects and creating portals. He's no lightweight. At the very least he should be able to create "magnetic barriers" to block Voldemort's spells.

Naw the hypersonic flight thing is pretty much a given. He's been able to tail the blackbird at full speed and keep up with his sun Quicksilver pretty consistantly.

Nekura
2012-07-07, 07:30 PM
Okay. Magneto managed to Band together all the mutants under his banner, and they all are following him.

Voldemort managed to defeat Harry and is poised to taken over the wizarding world...

Who would win now that they have turned their attentions to the non-mutant, muggles of the world.

Only one faction can stand to rule the world in their self image.

Doesn't Magneto also want to kill the normal humans? They wouldn't start fighting just because Voldemort and his minions start killing some muggles. When they do start fighting though it's hard to say I only know the x-men from the cartoons. It's hard to know what you mean by all the mutants I have a hard time imagining say professor x and apocalypse working for magneto. Some mutants are faster then wizards would be able to see. Mutant mind abilities seem to have more range and they can team up to boost each others power can't they? Not even knowing what crazy abilities mutants have in the comics I have to say Harry Potter wizards have less of a chance at this the most of the vs. threads.

Jayngfet
2012-07-07, 07:31 PM
Magneto waves his hand and all the iron in Voldemorts body goes flying in every direction at once. He doesn't exactly need any of his fancy tricks since the attack would be as soon as he registers the threat. The only way Voldemort could even hope to outgun him is is he somehow apparates faster than Magneto can get off the first attack and MAYBE pulls something out his sleeve.

But at that point it's a battle of reflexes instead of skill or strength.

snoopy13a
2012-07-07, 07:46 PM
First, Harry Potter wizards can lay low forever via magic. If they don't want to be found, they won't. Plus, they can use the Imperius Curse to slowly build up intelligence and knowledge about their enemies.

Overall, all Voldemort needs to do is use this information to take one of Magneto's henchmen by surprise. Once a henchman is in custody, Voldemort can use the Imperius Curse to have the henchman attempt to poison Magneto. Alternatively, Voldemort can use Polyjuice potion to assume the henchman's identity and take out Magento with a curse when Magento's back is turned.

Wizards don't have to fight fair, and Voldemort most definitely would not.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-07, 07:53 PM
First, Harry Potter wizards can lay low forever via magic. If they don't want to be found, they won't. Plus, they can use the Imperius Curse to slowly build up intelligence and knowledge about their enemies.

Overall, all Voldemort needs to do is use this information to take one of Magneto's henchmen by surprise. Once a henchman is in custody, Voldemort can use the Imperius Curse to have the henchman attempt to poison Magneto. Alternatively, Voldemort can use Polyjuice potion to assume the henchman's identity and take out Magento with a curse when Magento's back is turned.

Wizards don't have to fight fair, and Voldemort most definitely would not.

Yeah, but Voldemort is also rather stupid. He could do that stuff, but he wouldn't...well, he would try the Imperius-cursed henchman, that fits his modus operandi, but if he's confronting Magneto directly it will not be with anything approaching subtlety. The man's mind just doesn't work that way from all we've seen of him; he can't take a less grandiose option, even if it's safer, when a more megalomaniacal option is available.

Arcane_Secrets
2012-07-07, 08:04 PM
Okay. Magneto managed to Band together all the mutants under his banner, and they all are following him.

Voldemort managed to defeat Harry and is poised to taken over the wizarding world...

Who would win now that they have turned their attentions to the non-mutant, muggles of the world.

Only one faction can stand to rule the world in their self image.

Magneto. Anyone who can basically redirect the entire golden gate bridge with about thirty minutes effort (and considering what he did in the comics, this is actually a lower end tasking for him) is going to win in a direct fight. Furthermore, except for the frequently getting betrayed by his associates bit, Magneto's plans are generally a lot better thought out than Voldemort's.

Raimun
2012-07-07, 08:15 PM
I'd be more interested about Magneto vs. Gandalf-fight.

Prime32
2012-07-07, 08:23 PM
Magneto. Anyone who can basically redirect the entire golden gate bridge with about thirty minutes effort (and considering what he did in the comics, this is actually a lower end tasking for him) is going to win in a direct fight.On "what he did in the comics"... There's one story where an alien race fires a near-lightspeed city-sized bullet at Earth in order to destroy it, but Shadowcat manages to phase the thing and it goes flying off into deep space. Months later, Magneto pulls the bullet back to Earth. Without leaving Earth.

Xondoure
2012-07-07, 09:12 PM
My bad guys, somehow I forgot power creep. :smallsigh: Yup, I'd say Magneto wins. Mostly because if he's iron in your body powerful than Voldemort won't even be able to move.

An Enemy Spy
2012-07-07, 09:27 PM
"My power can do absolutely anything, as long as I fudge science enough to semi-justify it."- Evevery comic book character ever.
Seriously, what CAN'T these people do?

Dark Elf Bard
2012-07-07, 09:32 PM
Voldemort. Accio all metal everywhere! Transfigure into a demiplane.



Boom.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 10:07 PM
"My power can do absolutely anything, as long as I fudge science enough to semi-justify it."- Evevery comic book character ever.
Seriously, what CAN'T these people do?

His power is complete control over the electromagnetic spectrum, he's a top level villan... well when he is a villan, for a reason.

Guy has taken on full teams of the best supers around.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 10:10 PM
Voldemort. Accio all metal everywhere! Transfigure into a demiplane.



Boom.

wouldn't work. his powerset has nothing to do with metal it's just that metal most metals are magnetic.

with no metal around he just alters the electrons of what's available until the substance becomes magnetic. or any of the other things he can do.

Mystic Muse
2012-07-07, 10:12 PM
Voldemort. Accio all metal everywhere! Transfigure into a demiplane.



Boom.

...There is no proof anywhere that Voldemort can do anything like this, or that it would help at all. I'm pretty sure that Accio doesn't work that way (TM) and I don't recall any wizards being said to be able to transfigure something into demiplanes, let alone that Voldemort was capable of it.


My bad guys, somehow I forgot power creep. :smallsigh: Yup, I'd say Magneto wins. Mostly because if he's iron in your body powerful than Voldemort won't even be able to move.

That's how he gets out of his prison in X-2, X-men United. A man has more iron in his blood than usual (I believe Mystique gave him some odd pills) so he pulls it out of the guy's body, turns it into a few tiny balls and a platform, and shatters his prison.

Xondoure
2012-07-07, 10:21 PM
Vanishing spell is a thing.

Edit: Evanesco

Devonix
2012-07-07, 10:21 PM
...There is no proof anywhere that Voldemort can do anything like this, or that it would help at all. I'm pretty sure that Accio doesn't work that way (TM) and I don't recall any wizards being said to be able to transfigure something into demiplanes, let alone that Voldemort was capable of it.



That's how he gets out of his prison in X-2, X-men United. A man has more iron in his blood than usual (I believe Mystique gave him some odd pills) so he pulls it out of the guy's body, turns it into a few tiny balls and a platform, and shatters his prison.

She uses a syringe to pump some iron shavings or such into his butt. Maggs pulls them out.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 10:29 PM
Vanishing spell is a thing.

Edit: Evanesco

and it's a thing you can use to teleport an object or creature to someplace else yes. but it's never used in combat and doesn't actually harm anything.

Jayngfet
2012-07-07, 10:44 PM
"My power can do absolutely anything, as long as I fudge science enough to semi-justify it."- Evevery comic book character ever.
Seriously, what CAN'T these people do?

He's a top level comic villain for a REASON.

The problem is everybody always asks about the top level guys like Magneto or Superman or Green Lantern, who even without their decades of material still managed to be insanely powerful early into their run. Even the weaker guys of that Tier like Spiderman or Batman can break 99% of actual existing humans right out and pack at least three custom made suits of power armor and a whole warehouse full of gadgets in case something doesn't work out.

There's plenty of lower level heroes and villains, it's just nobody seems to CARE about them. Hence why everyone always brings up say, a Green Lantern in a thread where a Darkstar would be much more power level appropriate.

Forum Explorer
2012-07-07, 10:46 PM
Magneto in a heartbeat. Plus this is taking all of the wizards vs the mutants.

People like Quicksilver would be able to destroy Voldemort in literally seconds. The Blob wouldn't be as useful here but Toad would be. The mutants are just generally too powerful for the wizards to win.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 10:47 PM
He's a top level comic villain for a REASON.

The problem is everybody always asks about the top level guys like Magneto or Superman or Green Lantern, who even without their decades of material still managed to be insanely powerful early into their run. Even the weaker guys of that Tier like Spiderman or Batman can break 99% of actual existing humans right out and pack at least three custom made suits of power armor and a whole warehouse full of gadgets in case something doesn't work out.

There's plenty of lower level heroes and villains, it's just nobody seems to CARE about them. Hence why everyone always brings up say, a Green Lantern in a thread where a Darkstar would be much more power level appropriate.

Clap clap clap.

People bring up the god teir characters, some of them literal GODS and then say comics are stupid because the're too powerful.

That's like picking Gurren Lagann in a vs match against daredevil and saying all Anime is too powerful.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 10:50 PM
Magneto in a heartbeat. Plus this is taking all of the wizards vs the mutants.

People like Quicksilver would be able to destroy Voldemort in literally seconds. The Blob wouldn't be as useful here but Toad would be. The mutants are just generally too powerful for the wizards to win.

Then we have people like multiple man and Iceman who are armies onto them selves. And Franklin Richards who has been rewriting all of reality since he was a todler.

Arcane_Secrets
2012-07-07, 10:51 PM
On "what he did in the comics"... There's one story where an alien race fires a near-lightspeed city-sized bullet at Earth in order to destroy it, but Shadowcat manages to phase the thing and it goes flying off into deep space. Months later, Magneto pulls the bullet back to Earth. Without leaving Earth.

I was thinking of the time when SHIELD got Magneto really infuriated because they tried to put an field around the entire planet to block Magneto from coming back from Avalon, and Magneto just charged himself up...and EMP'ed the entire planet from orbit.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 10:56 PM
If Magneto couldn't do these things then he would cease to be a viable threat. The people he's up against are just that powerful.

Jayngfet
2012-07-07, 11:05 PM
If Magneto couldn't do these things then he would cease to be a viable threat. The people he's up against are just that powerful.

This is really the main thing. I mean really, think of it this way: Iron Man's Day to Day armor is built to handle random supervillans and gets the job done. He can use this thing to fight guys who tear through foot thick slabs of concrete and come out on top consistently. To go up against Thor, Hulk, or Magneto he needs to build from the ground up a suit of insane super-armor just to last five minutes. Just talking to Magneto for five minutes without dying instantly if things turn south means Tony builds a special suit.

Devonix
2012-07-07, 11:17 PM
This is really the main thing. I mean really, think of it this way: Iron Man's Day to Day armor is built to handle random supervillans and gets the job done. He can use this thing to fight guys who tear through foot thick slabs of concrete and come out on top consistently. To go up against Thor, Hulk, or Magneto he needs to build from the ground up a suit of insane super-armor just to last five minutes. Just talking to Magneto for five minutes without dying instantly if things turn south means Tony builds a special suit.

and here's the thing. Magneto happens to be one of those villans that WILL KILL YOU. usually just non mutants but if there's a threat to his plans he's got no problem with collateral damage or straight up murder to get the job done.

Fan
2012-07-08, 02:14 AM
I still think legless flying magneto punches out the HP verse.

"THEY TOOK MY LEGS CHARLES, AND NOW I'M GOING TO PUNCH THEM ALL!"

Seriously though, not only could Magneto solo the entire planet, but he's been given ALL the mutants as well.

This means Nate Grey, it means Jean Grey, Nate Grey, it means Quicksilver, it means Scarlet Witch.

Hell, I'd hazard Scarlet Witch could OUT MAGIC the HP universe by herself.

Bitter
2012-07-08, 07:10 AM
All mutants?

Are we going by current continuity where this would include the Phoenix Five in addition to Scarlet Witch and Franklin Richards? Seeing as this is an absolute curb stomp, can we throw Mr Franklin and his pet Galactus in there as well just for laughs?

Prime32
2012-07-08, 08:20 AM
Hell, I'd hazard Scarlet Witch could OUT MAGIC the HP universe by herself."No more wizards."

Agrippa
2012-07-08, 10:37 AM
Even movie Magneto would have a distinct advantage over Voldemort due to his ability to control ferrous metal. I'd like to see Voldemort AK through a sheet of iron or steel, or a mass of rapidly growing iron blades rotating around Erik Lenksherr himself. I'd have to say though, that matches against Voldemort need to be more even matched. So how about the Saints (Noah, Sean and Murphy MacManus) plus Sin City's Miho, Marv and Dwight against the Death Eaters. Now why doesn't someone make a vs. thread like that?

Traab
2012-07-08, 10:38 AM
The problem with that is that the killing curse isn't lethal because it has a super-high power output or anything, it's lethal because it magically kills you - laws of physics be damned. Same with an awful lot of spells really, sure Mags is fast but if he gets hit by it- or indeed any of the incapacitating curses (again, magic) - he's looking a bit on the screwed side. While he may be well above most individual wizards, it's worth noting that when it comes to the rank and file wizards V mutants side of things it's looking quite heavily weighted in favour of the spell slingers - in both offensive capability and movement/logistics. The fewer mutants there are besides mags, the more shots there are coming at him and it only takes one lucky hit and he's probably out.
Also dementors. Voldemort has dementors, creatures which I don't think can actually be hurt by anything other than specific forms of magic. There's rather a lot of other unpleasant magical beasts kicking around the HP world too.

This is also assuming that mags and co don't count as muggles, because if they do then the wizards can just go around casting muggle-repelling charms on place they don't want the mutants to be able to attack, approach or even be aware exist.


Actually there's way more. There are a number of other spells that will completely shut down anyone they hit (e.g. Petrifica Totalis) or at least put them on the back foot. The reason why the big 3 are treated that way in the potterverse is because they don't have any real counters.

Anything that doesnt shut down magnetos mind is useless. He controls magnetism through his sheer will, not through fancy gestures. So petrificus is useless. he will just be stiff while he crushes voldemort like a bug. Considering his helmet is designed specifically to block mental attacks, I dont see imperio, confundus, or any other mental attack spell working on him. So you cant restrain him as long as he is conscious. Voldemort cant just say, summon his helmet, even the MOVIE version of mags is strong enough to bench press a freaking bridge with his powers, good luck summoning his metal hat off of him voldy. Assuming he doesnt cause a stroke in voldemort with an instant attack, or spear him with everything vaguely metallic in a 3 square block radius, or just wrap him up from head to toe in solid steel to deliver the new moldyshorts lamp post to the dmle, there is nothing voldemort can really do against him. Short of the fight taking place on a rubber raft in the middle of the ocean, I dont see voldemort being able to get anything past magnetos defenses if he stands freaking still. Magneto, as has already been pointed out, is also an expert martial artist, and has spent years dodging freaking lasers and other energy/projectile weaponry. Bright flashes of light? He can dodge them, he does it all the time. He cant finish off voldy due to plot armor? No problem, he paralyzes voldy, locks him in a solid metal prison cell, and drops him off on a nearby asteroid. I hope his spirit is capable of space travel.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-08, 01:51 PM
Magneto was able to make a VERY sizable asteroid into a mutant base orbiting above the Earth. That was golden age stuff at that. The power needed to do that...was an after thought for him too. He could throw elaborate parties...get drunk...sleep...the asteroid that can hold a city on it's back kept it's orbit.

Magneto is pretty dang hard to stop imo. If it's him and all his mutants vs Voldemort and all the wizards? It's a bloodbath. MOST mutants are very well trained soldiers. They have been fighting mutant wars for many decades...even a few with centuries' worth of experience. For them to see "magic"...will not be shocking at all. They've seen everything. Everything they are could be classified as "magic" if the definition was loose.

Quicksilver is ridiculously fast. Magneto can fly at that speed. Magneto has out run missiles. Furthermore if it's every mutant? (Because Magneto has run both the good guy and the bad guy schools at one point or another) Just imagine ANY Marvel mutant...in a combat team. That shouldn't be too hard for you to do as again...they've all been in combat teams at one point or another. Imagine Jean Grey...Juggernaut...Nightcrawler...Quicksilver...t he list is endless...the power combinations unlimited.

Nightcrawler teleporting himself and Rogue right up on Voldy and grabbing his face...like I said...endless possibilities.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-08, 01:54 PM
I was thinking of the time when SHIELD got Magneto really infuriated because they tried to put an field around the entire planet to block Magneto from coming back from Avalon, and Magneto just charged himself up...and EMP'ed the entire planet from orbit.

Exactly. He can EMP a planet. All of humanity working together couldn't come close to that level of control/power.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-08, 02:11 PM
speaking of Juggernaut for a sec...how exactly does HE get stopped?

His only weakness is his helmet being removed. (well and stupidity)

Devonix
2012-07-08, 02:25 PM
Well Juggernaut wouldn't be there unless you mean Collosus.

Juggs is the human Avatar of Marvel's god of destruction Cytorak. When you're Juggernaut you're the living agent of a god's wrath and your powers are vast strength, immortality, invincibility, regeneration, not needing to eat, sleep, breathe ext.

Yeah Telepaths can get at him because there is still a human mind guiding Cytorak's power that's what the helmet is for.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-08, 02:55 PM
Juggernaut however is not a mutant, so whether or not anyone can stop the rockJuggernaut is quite irrelevant.

Devonix
2012-07-08, 02:58 PM
Colossus is the current Juggernaut so now he would be included.

Traab
2012-07-08, 03:08 PM
speaking of Juggernaut for a sec...how exactly does HE get stopped?

His only weakness is his helmet being removed. (well and stupidity)

He can be immobilized. Pretty sure the unstoppable etc etc etc could be floated in mid air. With nothing to push against, nothing to hit, and no way to build up momentum, he is as good as stopped. That being said, I vaguely recall comics where someone like jean grey tries exactly that and he starts punching her telekinetic powers or something. :smallsigh: Voldemort would likely win with a mobilicorpus. Well, more stalemate than win I suppose.

Dr.Epic
2012-07-08, 04:39 PM
Magneto hands down. None of the wizards are great planners or strategists. They wouldn't be able to come up any tactics to combat the mutants.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-08, 07:28 PM
Fine no Juggernaut...even though he was directly under the command of Magneto...in many issues. Even though he is the brother of Professor X. Fine. How does Voldy kill Wolverine? How does he kill Deadpool? Sabertooth? Any of the mutant healers?

How does he stop a tag team of Jean Grey/Prof X?

It's endless. Forge couldn't invent a wizard detector? Really? Because in the comics there is literally nothing that he cannot invent. How long until the wizard detection is incorporated into cerebro?

Magneto can literally rip the iron from your blood. He can give you a stroke. From thousands of miles away. The powers given to Magneto are ridiculously over the top...and there are many decades worth of examples of them.

Does the Hulk count as a mutant? His genes have mutated...

The wizards quite frankly seem pathetic, disorganized and maybe a match for teenage mutants with no schooling only. The X-men would be like elite shock troops in comparison.

Prime32
2012-07-08, 07:34 PM
Fine no Juggernaut...even though he was directly under the command of Magneto...in many issues. Even though he is the brother of Professor X. Fine. How does Voldy kill Wolverine? How does he kill Deadpool? Sabertooth? Any of the mutant healers?How does he kill Apocalypse? The guy survived having his soul destroyed and being paradoxed out of existence. :smalltongue:

Devonix
2012-07-08, 07:42 PM
Fine no Juggernaut...even though he was directly under the command of Magneto...in many issues. Even though he is the brother of Professor X. Fine. How does Voldy kill Wolverine? How does he kill Deadpool? Sabertooth? Any of the mutant healers?

How does he stop a tag team of Jean Grey/Prof X?

It's endless. Forge couldn't invent a wizard detector? Really? Because in the comics there is literally nothing that he cannot invent. How long until the wizard detection is incorporated into cerebro?

Magneto can literally rip the iron from your blood. He can give you a stroke. From thousands of miles away. The powers given to Magneto are ridiculously over the top...and there are many decades worth of examples of them.

Does the Hulk count as a mutant? His genes have mutated...

The wizards quite frankly seem pathetic, disorganized and maybe a match for teenage mutants with no schooling only. The X-men would be like elite shock troops in comparison.


Juggernaut in the past was a merc, as well as having a vendetta against Xavier thats why he works with Mags and other.

Though if you want to include Juggernaut just use the current version like I said. Current weilder of the Juggernaut powers is Collosus

Traab
2012-07-08, 07:53 PM
Yeah, harry potter is just on a lower tier than the xmen, or marvel in general. There are very few members of the xmen past or present, that couldnt beat nine flavors of crap out of voldemort and his people. Each of them are people who can and have dodged high powered weaponry, or just outright tanked the shots and kept on coming. They have all faced and destroyed threats that make voldemort seem like a freaking baby. The best he can generally hope for is a temporary stalemate. Take my juggernaut example. Yeah he could stop him cold with a mobilicorpus, but then what? Eventually voldemort is going to get tired, or distracted and juggy is back on the ground, ready to stomp a hole right through him.

Devonix
2012-07-08, 07:56 PM
Yeah, harry potter is just on a lower tier than the xmen, or marvel in general. There are very few members of the xmen past or present, that couldnt beat nine flavors of crap out of voldemort and his people. Each of them are people who can and have dodged high powered weaponry, or just outright tanked the shots and kept on coming. They have all faced and destroyed threats that make voldemort seem like a freaking baby. The best he can generally hope for is a temporary stalemate. Take my juggernaut example. Yeah he could stop him cold with a mobilicorpus, but then what? Eventually voldemort is going to get tired, or distracted and juggy is back on the ground, ready to stomp a hole right through him.

and Juggernaut is Immortal with a capital I not even the high end pantheons of Marvel can kill him.

Traab
2012-07-08, 07:59 PM
and Juggernaut is Immortal with a capital I not even the high end pantheons of Marvel can kill him.

True, but I suppose it might be possible to immobilize him, remove that helmet in some fashion, then obliviate him till he forgets how to breathe.

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-08, 08:04 PM
Personaly, I veiw the whole thing as this.

The only way to stand a chance of inguing most of the Marvel Mutants?

Destroy the planet there on at the time. You have a 50/50 shot of getting some of them, and it's more like 25/75 their favour.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-08, 08:16 PM
True, but I suppose it might be possible to immobilize him, remove that helmet in some fashion, then obliviate him till he forgets how to breathe.

Ah, good old Cain Marko Juggernaut.

Sadly won't help with the new one, apparently. Read up on the subject, apparently he's currently Double Immortal and can be ressurected at any moment even if that was bypassed somehow.

Bitter
2012-07-08, 08:17 PM
True, but I suppose it might be possible to immobilize him, remove that helmet in some fashion, then obliviate him till he forgets how to breathe.

He doesn't need to breath.

Also, taking away his sense of self by destroying his memories is one of the worst things to do. Currently Piotr Rasputin, aka Colossus, is the Juggernaut. He's quite nice and sensitive, but is fighting hard to keep the incredible rage that comes with his new powers under control. Get rid of his personality and you just have unbridled rage.

HE...

WILL BE MADE...

OF RAGE!

AtomicKitKat
2012-07-08, 08:41 PM
This post was originally just to correct the title for all future replies, but still.

Magneto was classed as Omega Class, as I remember. That's all the "living god" mutants. Phoenix and Mags off the top of my head. Scarlet BWitch maybe. Bobby Drake(Iceman) may qualify as well(no idea). Anything he can't dodge, he either deflects(via Iron Filing Cloud/Blade Barrier), or warps it around him. As mentioned above, he controls one of the 4 fundamental forces(Strong Nuclear Force, Weak Nuclear Force, Magnetism, Gravity, in descending order of strength). You'd literally need to be able to control the forces that hold atoms together to outclass him, and in the link above, his powers already trespass onto that territory.

Juggernaut... Technically, the only way to stop him is to both levitate him and remove the effects of gravity upon him. A lot of writers seem to forget that. Although, it depends on your interpretation of levitation, I guess. If you interpret it as cancelling gravity, then he's stuck. Still, he's at least a Human Ton, so any psychics holding him up had better have partners to rotate shifts to avoid fatigue.

Hulk, Doc Samson, and the Fantastic Four are classed as Mutates, as I recall. Essentially folks who were mutated post-puberty.

I'm not fond of HP(could be hype-backlash on my part, but yeah...), but even I feel sorry for them.

Traab
2012-07-08, 08:42 PM
Ah, good old Cain Marko Juggernaut.

Sadly won't help with the new one, apparently. Read up on the subject, apparently he's currently Double Immortal and can be ressurected at any moment even if that was bypassed somehow.

Cain is the only one I know of, I fell out of interest in comics a long time ago. And bitter, the whole obliviate till he forgets how to breathe wasnt meant quite literally, it was basically, wipe everything in his mind. Wipe out his entire conscious mind and leave him a drooling pile on the floor. He wouldnt even have the sentience to FEEL rage. He would be a drooling vegetable.

Devonix
2012-07-08, 09:11 PM
Cain is the only one I know of, I fell out of interest in comics a long time ago. And bitter, the whole obliviate till he forgets how to breathe wasnt meant quite literally, it was basically, wipe everything in his mind. Wipe out his entire conscious mind and leave him a drooling pile on the floor. He wouldnt even have the sentience to FEEL rage. He would be a drooling vegetable.

Remove the mind of the human host and then all you are left with is an empty shell animated by the marvel U god of destruction. You've essentually left the door open for Cytorak to just walk on in and Rofflestomp the Marvel U as well as most universes in general.

A viable human host is pretty much just appeasement for Cytorak so that he doesn't focus his energies on walking in on his own. AKA Juggernaut existing keeps him from being bored. Which is why when Cain wasn't smashing enough Cytorak started revoking his powers and looking for a new chosen one.

Starwulf
2012-07-08, 11:42 PM
How does he kill Apocalypse? The guy survived having his soul destroyed and being paradoxed out of existence. :smalltongue:

How? LOL. I remember Apocalypse from the days that I used to read Comic books, and he was always one of the baddest bad-asses that could ever possibly be found, but how in the world does even HE survive having his soul destroyed and paradoxed out of existence? This is something I am reaaaaaaallly curious to hear.

Bitter
2012-07-09, 06:16 AM
Cain is the only one I know of, I fell out of interest in comics a long time ago. And bitter, the whole obliviate till he forgets how to breathe wasnt meant quite literally, it was basically, wipe everything in his mind. Wipe out his entire conscious mind and leave him a drooling pile on the floor. He wouldnt even have the sentience to FEEL rage. He would be a drooling vegetable.

If his rage relied on a sentient mind, that would work.

Instead, his rage relies on an extra-dimensional demon god feeding rage into him.

Also this plan relies on somehow immobilising him and then getting his helmet off.

Besides, it doesn't matter because even if you take Collosoeinxaut out there are still mutants who are as good as omnipotent.


How? LOL. I remember Apocalypse from the days that I used to read Comic books, and he was always one of the baddest bad-asses that could ever possibly be found, but how in the world does even HE survive having his soul destroyed and paradoxed out of existence? This is something I am reaaaaaaallly curious to hear.

Basically Uncanny X-force established that he's a constant you can never get rid of. He'll always come back somehow, even if it's in another person's body.

Fantomex has taken a different route and tried to rehabilitate a reborn teenager Apocalypse who is now a student at the Jean Grey Academy for Gifted Children which is run by Professor Wolverine. He is an okay dude as long as you don't badmouth Kansas.

Xondoure
2012-07-09, 06:23 AM
The magical world has one hope, Avada Kedavra has no save, and it kills. Get that spell to land on the unsuspecting mutants and it won't matter who they are, they would be dead. But all this means in the end is that there would be casualties on both sides, not that they would win.

From a more meta standpoint, all they have to do is develop a cure for the mutant gene, and watch as the mutants tear themselves apart over the resulting moral dilemma. :smalltongue:

Bitter
2012-07-09, 06:31 AM
The magical world has one hope, Avada Kedavra has no save, and it kills. Get that spell to land on the unsuspecting mutants and it won't matter who they are, they would be dead. But all this means in the end is that there would be casualties on both sides, not that they would win.

From a more meta standpoint, all they have to do is develop a cure for the mutant gene, and watch as the mutants tear themselves apart over the resulting moral dilemma. :smalltongue:

Eh, there are Marvel "I don't die effects" which I'd rank a lot higher than Avada Kedavra in terms of deciding which comes out on top. Combined with some "bring those suckers" back to life powers and a few mutant magicians (whose power level seems to be way above HP universe level) and the wizards are outgunned.

I'd also mention that you don't necessarily die regardless of any protection if you get hit by Avada Kedavra, as Harry Potter himself proves.

Traab
2012-07-09, 06:56 AM
Remove the mind of the human host and then all you are left with is an empty shell animated by the marvel U god of destruction. You've essentually left the door open for Cytorak to just walk on in and Rofflestomp the Marvel U as well as most universes in general.

A viable human host is pretty much just appeasement for Cytorak so that he doesn't focus his energies on walking in on his own. AKA Juggernaut existing keeps him from being bored. Which is why when Cain wasn't smashing enough Cytorak started revoking his powers and looking for a new chosen one.

Ah, see, I didnt know about the god thing. I knew it was a magic gem that gave him his power, and thats about it. Even when I read comics, I didnt read them alot, and much of my info is a combination of random comic arcs and cartoons. Perhaps then a powerful enough confundus would work to disable him. Maybe even make him attack his own side. A rampaging juggernaut in the middle of the marvels could cause a bit of havoc and distraction.

Bitter
2012-07-09, 07:42 AM
Ah, see, I didnt know about the god thing. I knew it was a magic gem that gave him his power, and thats about it. Even when I read comics, I didnt read them alot, and much of my info is a combination of random comic arcs and cartoons. Perhaps then a powerful enough confundus would work to disable him. Maybe even make him attack his own side. A rampaging juggernaut in the middle of the marvels could cause a bit of havoc and distraction.

It was a gem, but it is the Gem of Cytorrak belonging to the demon god which gives him his powers. Cytorrak is also the one who empowers Dr Strange's Crimson bands of Cytorrak.

Juggerlossus is immune to all mental effects until you get his helmet off, which is pretty hard to do.

Then once you've got it off, there are a host of powerful x-men psychics to help protect him.

Then if you get rid of them, if we're going by the current state of the Marvel Universe then Colossus ALSO has 1/5th of the power of the Phoenix (Basically a 'lol I win' button) as well as being the Juggernaut so should be able to protect himself from mind control effect pretty easily.

Arcane_Secrets
2012-07-09, 08:03 AM
The magical world has one hope, Avada Kedavra has no save, and it kills. Get that spell to land on the unsuspecting mutants and it won't matter who they are, they would be dead. But all this means in the end is that there would be casualties on both sides, not that they would win.

From a more meta standpoint, all they have to do is develop a cure for the mutant gene, and watch as the mutants tear themselves apart over the resulting moral dilemma. :smalltongue:

Unsuspecting though is something of a tricky word. Considering that Magneto senses all electromagnetism he's probably going to be able to tell that someone's coming as long as they have a nervous system. You have the same issues with Wolverine because at a minimum, he's going to be able to hear and/or smell anyone sneaking up on him.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-09, 08:38 AM
Magneto babyshakes the entire HP Universe.

He's taken blows from Thor and She Hulk at the same time, both in energy form, and physical. His flight is hyper sonic, and he's a trained martial artist.

He can literally fly around PUNCHING them faster, and harder, than they can respond.

This. That said, he wouldn't. He's capable of grand strategy on a large scale, and he's remarkably competent at utilizing his powers for ranged attacks/blocks.

Blocking an AK would be dead easy for him, and that's the big guns of the HP universe.

Also, does he have wanda among those mutants? Because she's got literally world-altering power. She just wins.

Prime32
2012-07-09, 09:20 AM
A few characters, like Psylocke, would be capable of destroying Voldemort's soul so he can't revive.

Traab
2012-07-09, 09:29 AM
How about this then? Turn his helmet into a reuseable portkey that send him off to the bottom of the marianis trench. It wont kill him, but it will remove him from the battle for days on end, assuming someone doesnt go pick him up. If he takes off the helmet he can be attacked mentally, if he doesnt, every time he rejoins the battlefield he leaves it abruptly.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-09, 09:31 AM
How about this then? Turn his helmet into a reuseable portkey that send him off to the bottom of the marianis trench. It wont kill him, but it will remove him from the battle for days on end, assuming someone doesnt go pick him up. If he takes off the helmet he can be attacked mentally, if he doesnt, every time he rejoins the battlefield he leaves it abruptly.

In theory, sure, but you'd need access to his helmet to do that. We've never seen the actual process of creating a Portkey on-screen, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume you don't just cast 'Portkeyes Marianastrenchus' and bam you have a portkey...if it was that fast, you wouldn't need to learn how to apparate, you could just make your shoes into temporary portkeys.

Forum Explorer
2012-07-09, 09:33 AM
How about this then? Turn his helmet into a reuseable portkey that send him off to the bottom of the marianis trench. It wont kill him, but it will remove him from the battle for days on end, assuming someone doesnt go pick him up. If he takes off the helmet he can be attacked mentally, if he doesnt, every time he rejoins the battlefield he leaves it abruptly.

That would work (I remember a similar tactic being used to send him to Mars) but how long does it take to make?

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-09, 09:40 AM
How about this then? Turn his helmet into a reuseable portkey that send him off to the bottom of the marianis trench. It wont kill him, but it will remove him from the battle for days on end, assuming someone doesnt go pick him up. If he takes off the helmet he can be attacked mentally, if he doesnt, every time he rejoins the battlefield he leaves it abruptly.

Magneto could pick him up in minutes. One would imagine Mags would have Prof X manning Cerebro to monitor all the mutants at all times. Just imagine the tactical advantage that cerebro would be.

Traab
2012-07-09, 09:44 AM
That would work (I remember a similar tactic being used to send him to Mars) but how long does it take to make?

Not long, dumbledoore made one to hogwarts for harry after the ministry battle with a moments concentration. Dunno about restrictions though, voldemort may have to settle for sending him as far away as he has been himself.


Magneto could pick him up in minutes. One would imagine Mags would have Prof X manning Cerebro to monitor all the mutants at all times. Just imagine the tactical advantage that cerebro would be.

Excellent, that takes care of juggernaut, magneto, and prof x in one fell swoop. If voldemort and his crew are portkeying everyone they cant outright beat or at least stand up to to all corners of the globe, then Charles is stuck on cerebro duty and cant take part, magneto is busy picking up everyone over and over, and the transplanted mutants are several countries away from the fight. Thats a lot of heavy hitters that are effectively neutralized.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-09, 09:55 AM
Not long, dumbledoore made one to hogwarts for harry after the ministry battle with a moments concentration. Dunno about restrictions though, voldemort may have to settle for sending him as far away as he has been himself.



Excellent, that takes care of juggernaut, magneto, and prof x in one fell swoop. If voldemort and his crew are portkeying everyone they cant outright beat or at least stand up to to all corners of the globe, then Charles is stuck on cerebro duty and cant take part, magneto is busy picking up everyone over and over, and the transplanted mutants are several countries away from the fight. Thats a lot of heavy hitters that are effectively neutralized.

Professor X can kill you from cerebro. He can kill anyone from cerebro. Plus Forge has made cerebro detect wizards now...all of them.

As I said earlier it's not a matter of who will win...but which of the thousand ways will the mutants choose to destroy the wizards with?

Prime32
2012-07-09, 09:58 AM
To use the Portus charm you have to touch the object; if you could touch Magneto's head then you could just stab it. In addition, no one has ever enchanted a held object even when it would be more convenient.

Also, Magneto can sometimes teleport. Magnetically. :smallconfused:

Traab
2012-07-09, 10:01 AM
Professor X can kill you from cerebro. He can kill anyone from cerebro. Plus Forge has made cerebro detect wizards now...all of them.

As I said earlier it's not a matter of who will win...but which of the thousand ways will the mutants choose to destroy the wizards with?

Didnt the professer have a near mental breakdown and lead to the creation of onslaught just by having wiped magnetos mind on that asteroid? Did he later on start being professor hunter killer in the comics or something? Just because he COULD kill with cerebro, doesnt mean he would.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-09, 10:03 AM
What about Deadpool? He can teleport...cannot be killed...and doesn't seem to tire...ever.

Cable? He can time travel.

In a issue of Cable vs Deadpool? Cable blew Deadpool's head clean off multiple times...just to get him to shut up. Never killed him...and Deadpool kinda laughed it off.

Bitter
2012-07-09, 10:13 AM
How about this then? Turn his helmet into a reuseable portkey that send him off to the bottom of the marianis trench. It wont kill him, but it will remove him from the battle for days on end, assuming someone doesnt go pick him up. If he takes off the helmet he can be attacked mentally, if he doesnt, every time he rejoins the battlefield he leaves it abruptly.

Possible, but that involves them getting ahold of his helmet in the first place. It is kind of like your plan to attack the Juggernaut's mind where your first step is to stop him somehow so his helmet can be taken off, which you glaze over and never mention how it would happen.


Excellent, that takes care of juggernaut, magneto, and prof x in one fell swoop. If voldemort and his crew are portkeying everyone they cant outright beat or at least stand up to to all corners of the globe, then Charles is stuck on cerebro duty and cant take part, magneto is busy picking up everyone over and over, and the transplanted mutants are several countries away from the fight. Thats a lot of heavy hitters that are effectively neutralized.

I've already mentioned why I don't think this is possible, but I just wanted to point out that Magneto and Prof X aren't heavy hitters. Colloseinixaut is if we're going with him as he is in the comics at the moment (Mutant Colossus + Juggernaut powers + Phoenix powers) but otherwise we need to look to people like Scarlet Witch and Franklin Richards.

Either could destroy Voldemort and all his death Eaters in an instant. They wouldn't go that all out unless things got bad because they're heroes, but there is absolutely no way Voldemort wins against people who manipulate reality itself. There are likely also some lower level mutants that could solo the wizarding world as they just happen to have the perfect power set to fight wizards. Could Voldemort beat Danger or Warlock, for instance?

Traab
2012-07-09, 10:16 AM
Mobilicorpus to float juggy in mid air. With nothing physical to push off against or hit he is dead in the water. I dunno how his helmet is attached anymore, is it still 4 snap down clips? An alohamora might work to unlock it.

Kris on a Stick
2012-07-09, 10:18 AM
In theory, sure, but you'd need access to his helmet to do that. We've never seen the actual process of creating a Portkey on-screen, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume you don't just cast 'Portkeyes Marianastrenchus' and bam you have a portkey...if it was that fast, you wouldn't need to learn how to apparate, you could just make your shoes into temporary portkeys.

Just as an aside: we do, actually. IIRC Dumbledore turns a random piece of wreckage into a portkey at the end of book 5 to return Harry to Hogwarts from the Ministry. It's as simple as him tapping the object and saying an incantation - of course, this means that Voldemort somehow needs to get within wand tapping range of Magneto's head.

Bitter
2012-07-09, 10:25 AM
Mobilicorpus to float juggy in mid air. With nothing physical to push off against or hit he is dead in the water. I dunno how his helmet is attached anymore, is it still 4 snap down clips? An alohamora might work to unlock it.

A few problems with this.

1) Doesn't this spell only effect unconscious people?

2) Can it pick up a guy who weighs half a ton+?

3) Are the wizards anywhere near Juglossus? Like within a couple of hundred feet? Shockwave clap KOs them from a distance.

4) Are we going by current continuity? Then Jugglossus also has the power of the Phoenix which means that lifting him off the ground doesn't do anything seeing as he can warp matter, teleport, etc etc.

5) If it's not current continuity, how do the wizards deal with the other mutants nearby who can counter this? The mutants have their own magicians to cancel the spell, have telekinetics (and magneto) to push him back down to the ground, have psychics to ward his mind even if the helmet does come off, etc.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-09, 10:29 AM
Mutant tech...is light years beyond human tech in many cases.

The Wizards don't even know how to operate even the most basic tech. Stuff like a typewriter is amazing to them.

The advantages of cerebro are endless. How do I describe the advantages well enough without using 14 gazillion pages? It would be like having a real God like Athena on your team vs...them having a etch a sketch with a broken thumb wheel.

Mutants could take sentinels and make them into wizard killers.

It's literally endless.

Bitter
2012-07-09, 10:35 AM
Let's change this up. What is the weakest mutant that we think could solo Voldemort and his forces.

My first thought goes for Magik. A powerful sorceress herself, she also has her soulsword which instantly nullifies any magic. Her mutant ability to teleport would not only mean she can pick off Voldemort's forces guerilla style, but also that against anyone who gives her trouble she can just teleport them to Limbo where her magic reigns supreme.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-09, 10:47 AM
Let's change this up. What is the weakest mutant that we think could solo Voldemort and his forces.

My first thought goes for Magik. A powerful sorceress herself, she also has her soulsword which instantly nullifies any magic. Her mutant ability to teleport would not only mean she can pick off Voldemort's forces guerilla style, but also that against anyone who gives her trouble she can just teleport them to Limbo where her magic reigns supreme.

I think Forge can solo the wizard world. His tech is beyond what even the most brilliant alien species that we ever encountered in comicdom can conceive. He is an inventing God. Though I do think he'd piggyback off the sentinels tech to accomplish his goal that much sooner.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-09, 10:55 AM
I also think that it'd just be a matter of time before someone like Deadpool killed all of them. It'd be slow...but relentless. His ability to endlessly teleport, inability to die, inability to tire...well they'd make him unstoppable. He also has access to massive laser cannons...and hand laser pistols too. Also he has an incredible accuracy about him...in addition to being perhaps the most gifted martial artist ever.

Fan
2012-07-09, 10:57 AM
Generic Muggles with a Pistol > Wizard by word of God.

Anyone with guns who has super powers is just kicking a baby while it's down.

HalfTangible
2012-07-09, 11:02 AM
Generic Muggles with a Pistol > Generic Wizard by word of God.

Anyone with guns who has super powers is just kicking a baby while it's down.

Fixed that for you.

Excuse me while i try and legitimately analyze these two combatants. ('Try' being the operative word)

For this analysis, I'm going to assume Voldemort's Horcruxes are irrelevant to the fight or non-existent, as is any method Magneto might have of resurrection/immortality that I may not know about.

Magneto is an intelligent mutant madman with god-like powers over magnetism, one of the fundamental forces that shapes our entire universe (AND the entire mutant universe, just to be clear). From the descriptions given in this thread, however, his power goes so far beyond that simple description that accurately portraying them using the phrase 'magnetism' is a fruitless excercise.

Voldemort is the most powerful dark wizard of all time, with intelligence and power that was only ever outmatched by Dumbledore. His weakness throughout the entire Harry Potter series is, repeatedly, shown to be that he doesn't understand love emotions. However, I doubt that's going to be relevant in this fight.

Magneto's simplest solution would be, as mentioned earlier, to crash an aesteroid into England. However, A) Magneto doesn't seem the kind to engage in indiscriminate mass murder, at least with such a high chance that there are mutants in the mass he's murdering. B) Apparation.

Something to keep in mind here is that pretty much everything one of these combatants can do, the other can as well. Mind control, telekinesis, portals, phasing through objects, you name it, they can do it. The difference here is that Voldemort doesn't have any limits - he can use whatever resource he likes, however he likes. Magneto needs to work within the bounds of electromagnetism, which unfortunately for him means that Voldy has more versatility AND Magneto can't block any of his spells. If we assume that he can always find something solid to block with, however-

...

Oh wait, factor in the personalities of the two and this fight would never happen. Because they would ally with each other (each thinking themselves the superior being, there is no reason to outright kill him if you don't want to) to obliterate every muggle/human on the planet. Their respective abilities - and the knowledge that neither knows how this fight will turn out - will ensure they do not immediately engage.

FRIENDSHIP! :smalltongue:

Prime32
2012-07-09, 11:46 AM
Something to keep in mind here is that pretty much everything one of these combatants can do, the other can as well. Mind control, telekinesis, portals, phasing through objects, you name it, they can do it. The difference here is that Voldemort doesn't have any limits - he can use whatever resource he likes, however he likes. Magneto needs to work within the bounds of electromagnetism, which unfortunately for him means that Voldy has more versatility AND Magneto can't block any of his spells.Whuh, limits? This is the guy who used magnetism to create ice. Voldemort has to use specific spells, Magneto can do basically anything as long as he calls it "magnetic something".


Oh wait, factor in the personalities of the two and this fight would never happen. Because they would ally with each other (each thinking themselves the superior being, there is no reason to outright kill him if you don't want to) to obliterate every muggle/human on the planet. Their respective abilities - and the knowledge that neither knows how this fight will turn out - will ensure they do not immediately engage.

FRIENDSHIP! :smalltongue:...no. Voldemort wants to kill all the muggles, including mutants; why would Magneto agree to that? And where did you get the idea that Voldemort doesn't like killing people?

Bitter
2012-07-09, 11:47 AM
I dunno about getting along. Even if we ignore that Magneto has been a heroic character for the past few years and would certainly fight Voldemort as he is now, I'd say it's touch and go if Magneto thinks of Voldemort as a Nazi-like oppressor or Voldemort considers Magneto an aberrant Muggle-blood.

Traab
2012-07-09, 11:58 AM
I dunno about getting along. Even if we ignore that Magneto has been a heroic character for the past few years and would certainly fight Voldemort as he is now, I'd say it's touch and go if Magneto thinks of Voldemort as a Nazi-like oppressor or Voldemort considers Magneto an aberrant Muggle-blood.

Yeah, as soon as magneto learns about the muggleborn internment camps.... voldemort is going to be squished. Magneto will take all of england, and compress it around voldemorts body until he forms a black hole. Which he will then set on fire. Through magnetism.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-09, 11:59 AM
Considering the only thing keeping Voldemort from being Magical Hitler is his lack of facial hair, I don't see him and Magneto getting along in the slightest.

Traab
2012-07-09, 12:20 PM
Considering the only thing keeping Voldemort from being Magical Hitler is his lack of facial hair, I don't see him and Magneto getting along in the slightest.

Heh, I suddenly got this mental image of hitler dressed like http://img1.animeartbooks.net/lyricalnanoha/03.jpg that

Fan
2012-07-09, 12:26 PM
Yeah, resemble a Reich in the slightest, and you will set off ALL of Magneto's rage buttons.

You will end up with an Asteroid dropped on your face, and then he will have Scarlet Witch bottle your soul inside distilled agony, and then he'll give you to Mephisto.

tyckspoon
2012-07-09, 12:33 PM
Whuh, limits? This is the guy who used magnetism to create ice. Voldemort has to use specific spells, Magneto can do basically anything as long as he calls it "magnetic something".


Yeeup. 'Omega level mutant' is not especially well-defined, but from known examples (Magneto and Iceman, among a few others) it largely means they can do whatever the heck they want, and the supposed way their powers work is basically a visual skin; Magneto can do whatever he wants as long as it might possibly be at all relevant to any application of the electro-magnetic spectrum. Which is.. everything, really, because being one of the fundamental forces means that *everything* can be affected by a sufficiently powerful application of electromagnetism.

Fan
2012-07-09, 12:44 PM
Yeah, Abra Kedabra really doesn't have anything on a Megaton Yield Nuke.



http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/3455/magtakesamegatonbomb9cn.jpg



And Magneto has tanked those before.

The Extinguisher
2012-07-09, 02:54 PM
Yeah, Abra Kedabra really doesn't have anything on a Megaton Yield Nuke.



http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/3455/magtakesamegatonbomb9cn.jpg



And Magneto has tanked those before.

Except where Avada Kedavra kills you dead, magically, unless you're mother happens to throw herself between you and the wand. It doesn't destroy you, or hurt you in any way, it just kills you.

Which means it should beat Marvel's high end regenerators. In fact, the only person it doesn't stop is Mr. Immortal.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-09, 03:00 PM
Except where Avada Kedavra kills you dead, magically, unless you're mother happens to throw herself between you and the wand. It doesn't destroy you, or hurt you in any way, it just kills you.

Which means it should beat Marvel's high end regenerators. In fact, the only person it doesn't stop is Mr. Immortal.

You could put deadpool in a blender...he'd come back.

Bitter
2012-07-09, 03:12 PM
Except where Avada Kedavra kills you dead, magically, unless you're mother happens to throw herself between you and the wand. It doesn't destroy you, or hurt you in any way, it just kills you.

Which means it should beat Marvel's high end regenerators. In fact, the only person it doesn't stop is Mr. Immortal.

Unless it hits something else or misses, which isn't a concern with many mutant powers. Personally I'd imagine that at best a few bruiser characters might go down in the first engagement under the misapprehension that they can take a few hits because they're so tough. At that point the mutants go into war mode and the wizards die, but even that assumes that the mutants act a bit stupid and one of the psychics doesn't simply rip all the knowledge from the head of a wizard and give the mutants a warning about what they face.

Bitter
2012-07-09, 03:14 PM
You could put deadpool in a blender...he'd come back.

Deadpool is immortal as he was cursed by Thanos to never die, however he isn't a mutant because his powers were artificially given to him by Weapon X.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-09, 03:24 PM
Deadpool is immortal as he was cursed by Thanos to never die, however he isn't a mutant because his powers were artificially given to him by Weapon X.

So wizards aren't magical because they are not born with power? It happens at a certain time?

Hulk is mutant. Spiderman is a mutant. Deadpool is a mutant. Their genes are mutated. Whether by birth or by science...they have mutated genes.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-09, 03:26 PM
Except where Avada Kedavra kills you dead, magically, unless you're mother happens to throw herself between you and the wand. It doesn't destroy you, or hurt you in any way, it just kills you.

Which means it should beat Marvel's high end regenerators. In fact, the only person it doesn't stop is Mr. Immortal.

Or, yknow, Jean Grey, who can basically come back from anything.

Then there's folks like Longshot, who will simply get off easy because of the nature of their powers. You miss. Oops.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-09, 03:28 PM
So wizards aren't magical because they are not born with power? It happens at a certain time?

Hulk is mutant. Spiderman is a mutant. Deadpool is a mutant. Their genes are mutated. Whether by birth or by science...they have mutated genes.

Wizards are born magical, they just can't tap their powers consciously until a certain age.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-09, 03:32 PM
Or, yknow, Jean Grey, who can basically come back from anything.

Then there's folks like Longshot, who will simply get off easy because of the nature of their powers. You miss. Oops.

Or Domino. You'd NEVER hit her...because that'd be unlucky.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-09, 03:39 PM
So wizards aren't magical because they are not born with power? It happens at a certain time?

Hulk is mutant. Spiderman is a mutant. Deadpool is a mutant. Their genes are mutated. Whether by birth or by science...they have mutated genes.


Wizards are born magical, they just can't tap their powers consciously until a certain age.

Also, Mutant in this respect is a specific in-universe label. As I understand it, for example, Mr Fantastic and the Invisible Woman became exposed to cosmic radiation and were mutated, but are not Mutants. They have a son, Franklin Richards, who was born with unusual powers due to inheriting stuff from his parents changed DNA/stuff. This makes him at least technically a Mutant. This distinction is quite specific in-universe, though there are confusing cases.

Xondoure
2012-07-09, 03:47 PM
I thought the general explanation for mutated heroes (most of them) is that cosmic radiation or gamma, super serum or freak vat of chemicals, whatever happened to them unlocks the mutant gene in a specific way and wammo powers. (Any other person besides Bruce Banner might have died rather than become the Hulk, the Fantastic Four got hit by the same wave but it manifested differently in each of them, Spidey's DNA naturally bonded with the radioactive spider venom, etc etc.)

Bitter
2012-07-09, 03:48 PM
So wizards aren't magical because they are not born with power? It happens at a certain time?

Hulk is mutant. Spiderman is a mutant. Deadpool is a mutant. Their genes are mutated. Whether by birth or by science...they have mutated genes.

None of those are mutants unless you go by the non-canon Earth/Universe/Paradise X explanation.


I thought the general explanation for mutated heroes (most of them) is that cosmic radiation or gamma, super serum or freak vat of chemicals, whatever happened to them unlocks the mutant gene in a specific way and wammo powers. (Any other person besides Bruce Banner might have died rather than become the Hulk, the Fantastic Four got hit by the same wave but it manifested differently in each of them, Spidey's DNA naturally bonded with the radioactive spider venom, etc etc.)

See ^

Mordaenor
2012-07-09, 03:54 PM
As with a lot of these Vs. threads, we have two different power sources with no real basis for comparison. I.E. we don't have anyway of knowing what is "stronger" Magic or Mutant powers, and how do they interact?

While by any dictionary definition, a large part of the Marvel universe could be defined as a Mutant, the Marvel universe itself does define the term a bit more narrowly, thus the X-men are hated and feared as "Mutants" by normal people who are prone to racial prejudice, other genetically altered beings like, say the Fantastic Four don't necessarily have the same problem.

That said if we limit ourselves to just the primary combatants, in this case Magneto and Voldemort, I have to give this one to Voldemort. While Magneto has been shown to be incredibly powerful, he does seem to be limited by the laws of physics (or at least some loose comic-book interpreation thereof). That is to say, Magneto's forcefield can block anything that obeys the laws of Science to some degree (again Science as defined by the Marvel universe, not our own). Magic on the other hand doesn't behave that way, Magic (sort of by definition) ignores the Physical world and plays by its own rules. Therefore its much harder to quantify what it can and can't do. Magic is needed to counter other Magic. So I don't think Magneto's electromagnetic powers would have much chance of stopping Voldemort.

If we expand the battlefield, to an all-out Mutants vs. Wizards clash, the lines become even more hazy, as we have seen examples of Mutant with powers that literally allow them to re-shape reality in ways Science can't possibly begin to justify, who might themselves be called "Wizards". I think the result of would be a total War of Attrition, the side left standing would be the side that had enough soldiers to outlast the other one, and there wouldn't be much Earth left to rule by the end of it.

Bitter
2012-07-09, 04:12 PM
That said if we limit ourselves to just the primary combatants, in this case Magneto and Voldemort, I have to give this one to Voldemort. While Magneto has been shown to be incredibly powerful, he does seem to be limited by the laws of physics (or at least some loose comic-book interpreation thereof). That is to say, Magneto's forcefield can block anything that obeys the laws of Science to some degree (again Science as defined by the Marvel universe, not our own).

It has been shown to block magical and cosmic stuff with no basing in Science.


Magic on the other hand doesn't behave that way, Magic (sort of by definition) ignores the Physical world and plays by its own rules.

Harry Potter magical attacks don't penetrate concrete. Why would you think they can penetrate a forcefield?


Magic is needed to counter other Magic.

Marvel has plenty of powers that can counter magic without being magic. Mutant powers, the power cosmic, technology, etc.

Also Magneto has one-hit kills or KOs that don't require aiming and chanting. Can Voldemort stop himself from being instantly ripped apart or having a stroke?


If we expand the battlefield, to an all-out Mutants vs. Wizards clash, the lines become even more hazy, as we have seen examples of Mutant with powers that literally allow them to re-shape reality in ways Science can't possibly begin to justify, who might themselves be called "Wizards". I think the result of would be a total War of Attrition, the side left standing would be the side that had enough soldiers to outlast the other one, and there wouldn't be much Earth left to rule by the end of it.

Nah, even in the wizarding war things didn't get so bad that magic was revealed to muggles. There are mutants who can just banish all the wizards to another world or nullify their power in the blink of an eye. There are not especially powerful mutants that could probably take on all the wizards singlehandedly.

Traab
2012-07-09, 04:40 PM
As with a lot of these Vs. threads, we have two different power sources with no real basis for comparison. I.E. we don't have anyway of knowing what is "stronger" Magic or Mutant powers, and how do they interact?

While by any dictionary definition, a large part of the Marvel universe could be defined as a Mutant, the Marvel universe itself does define the term a bit more narrowly, thus the X-men are hated and feared as "Mutants" by normal people who are prone to racial prejudice, other genetically altered beings like, say the Fantastic Four don't necessarily have the same problem.

That said if we limit ourselves to just the primary combatants, in this case Magneto and Voldemort, I have to give this one to Voldemort. While Magneto has been shown to be incredibly powerful, he does seem to be limited by the laws of physics (or at least some loose comic-book interpreation thereof). That is to say, Magneto's forcefield can block anything that obeys the laws of Science to some degree (again Science as defined by the Marvel universe, not our own). Magic on the other hand doesn't behave that way, Magic (sort of by definition) ignores the Physical world and plays by its own rules. Therefore its much harder to quantify what it can and can't do. Magic is needed to counter other Magic. So I don't think Magneto's electromagnetic powers would have much chance of stopping Voldemort.

If we expand the battlefield, to an all-out Mutants vs. Wizards clash, the lines become even more hazy, as we have seen examples of Mutant with powers that literally allow them to re-shape reality in ways Science can't possibly begin to justify, who might themselves be called "Wizards". I think the result of would be a total War of Attrition, the side left standing would be the side that had enough soldiers to outlast the other one, and there wouldn't be much Earth left to rule by the end of it.

Honestly, I disagree, just because its magic doesnt mean it follows rules. We see solid objects blocking spells, we see how those spells interact with the environment, and so we can make reasonable assumptions from there. Even if magneto cant, for some reason, just will a force field into place, he can still call up a wall of metal to block 99.9% of anything voldemort could throw at him. He has numerous instant kill techniques that dont seem likely to be blocked by a wand waving wizard. (how do you stop a stroke?) I just dont see voldemort having much that could make magneto nervous. About the best I can see voldemort hoping for is no instant kill stroke style attacks, and him relying heavily on transfiguring every bit of metal in the immediate area into bone china or something to limit magnetos options.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-09, 04:47 PM
Couldn't Magneto easily repel Voldy into space while encapsulating him in a blob of metal?

GL in waving wands while chilling Han Solo stylee...

Traab
2012-07-09, 05:38 PM
Couldn't Magneto easily repel Voldy into space while encapsulating him in a blob of metal?

GL in waving wands while chilling Han Solo stylee...

Maybe, it depends on how good voldy is at transfiguring metal into glass or bone china, or paper.

Goosefeather
2012-07-09, 05:59 PM
Couldn't Magneto easily repel Voldy into space while encapsulating him in a blob of metal?

GL in waving wands while chilling Han Solo stylee...

But Voldemort could surely just Apparate out of that.

Bitter
2012-07-09, 06:19 PM
But Voldemort could surely just Apparate out of that.

To be fair if Magneto totally surrounds Voldemort in metal the next thing that happens is that Voldemort gets squished into a dense ball of flesh and bone roughly an inch in diameter, not that he gets launched into space.

AtomicKitKat
2012-07-10, 02:38 AM
Regarding mutant or not mutant. Check from Wikipedia


The term Mutate refers to most non-mutant superbeings in the Marvel Comics universe. See below for other uses.

Mutate is a term used to refer to superhumans who acquired their superpowers by exposure to some mutagenic compound or energy (either accidentally or deliberately). Unlike Marvel's Mutants, Marvel's Mutates require external stimuli to acquire their powers (e.g. they weren't born with the potential to manifest powers).


That's pretty much the only real distinction. In an English Language class, they're all "mutants"(as in, they have been mutated from the normal), but if we're going by the "science" route, a mutant is one who is born with a trait neither parent has manifested(or a more pronounced mutated parental trait).

Proteus or any of the reality warpers makes short work. I suspect even Banshee/Siryn/Klaw(in his "living sound" form) could render the Wizards deaf(possibly even blind), and thus unable to cast(HP wizards appear to require vocal components for all spells). They might be safe if they stayed in a D&D style Silence spell I guess. But then they'd have to pop their heads out of the dome every so often to shout bad Latin...

The Glyphstone
2012-07-10, 07:42 AM
Well, unless they know how to cast nonverbal spells, which we know are a thing. But that's only a tiny handful of wizards who know how to do it.

Fan
2012-07-10, 07:47 AM
Again, Scarlet Witch "No more Wizards.".

Or Quicksilver punches them all before they can react.

OR Quicksilver can pull on ties with the Inhumans, Blackbolt sings a duet with Banshee.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-10, 08:16 AM
Nah, even in the wizarding war things didn't get so bad that magic was revealed to muggles. There are mutants who can just banish all the wizards to another world or nullify their power in the blink of an eye. There are not especially powerful mutants that could probably take on all the wizards singlehandedly.

This. In fact, I've stopped thinking about the original premise, and gone on to mentally listing all the mutants that could take out the entire wizarding world solo.

It's a very, very long list.

Arcane_Secrets
2012-07-10, 12:36 PM
But Voldemort could surely just Apparate out of that.

If he's concentrating heavily on basic tasks like breathing and not passing out, isn't he likely to get splinched really badly? I'll grant that probably wouldn't kill him since I'm sure he knows a lot of self-healing spells, but it'll certainly delay him for a bit and while he's delayed Magneto's going to be launching more things at him in the meantime.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-10, 12:48 PM
Again, Scarlet Witch "No more Wizards.".

Or Quicksilver punches them all before they can react.

OR Quicksilver can pull on ties with the Inhumans, Blackbolt sings a duet with Banshee.

Fan, you're arguing against nobody. No one thinks wizards can win, we've long since changed to figuring out the handful of circumstances in which they can not lose - i.e., which tactics can even be attempted.

Fan
2012-07-10, 01:12 PM
Fan, you're arguing against nobody. No one thinks wizards can win, we've long since changed to figuring out the handful of circumstances in which they can not lose - i.e., which tactics can even be attempted.

Well.. I guess..

I got nothing, I'll be honest.

I guess if they had every conceivable advantage, and prep they could remove themselves from possible discovery?

Mass area's completely invisible even to wizard with secret keepers who are subsequently killed.

Traab
2012-07-10, 03:17 PM
Ok, back to the portkey idea. Portkey random items, permanent sticking charm, banish it into the nearest mutant, activate. No need to walk up and poke juggy or whoever in the head with a wand to turn their costume into a portkey, just slap a bit of newspaper over their face with a sticking charm and send them on their way. Voldemort splits up his forces, his best portkey creators are in the back being protected by his front line fighters who are trying to hold off everyone long enough to get these things on them.

There is no mentioned limit on the size of the item that can be made into a portkey, so its not like the xmen are dodging shoes and soda cans. They could be made out of innocuous trash and battlefield debris. Depending on the lineup of mutants they are facing, this could work out decently. Get enough of the mutants removed from the field, even briefly, then dog pile whoever is left and repeat till they run out. Yeah there are a number of all star lineups that this wouldnt work on, but there are a few sets that it could work against.

KnightOfV
2012-07-10, 06:18 PM
I dunno, overall I think it would be pretty typical wizard vs wizard rocket tag. I like X-men better, but I'll argue for the underdogs.

If the fight is ANY mutants in X-men vs ANY wizards in Harry Potter, then ya, mutants win easy since they get a few stupid crazy god-mode guys.

If it is just a team of Magneto and his Acolytes vs Voldemort and Death eaters, it might be close. Wizards mind controlling Mutants! Psychics mind controlling Wizards! Blasts of energy flying everywhere! Wizards in HP have shown the ability to turn back time, make themselves undetectable to everyone BUT other wizards, and flawlessly disguise themselves as anybody. ALL of Volde's crew can mind control, kill, or cause horrible pain as a ranged touch attack, and teleport to wherever they want on a whim. Some mutants can do some of these things, but few have that kind of versatility.

Voldemort in specific is an immortal lich with an army of Dementors that can paralyze anyone with fear then suck out their souls. Dementors may be able to insta-win against the majority of mutants (except psychics) as there is no way to kill them, and the only way to chase them off is magic. There ARE mutants that can beat this (and unmake reality as a cool-down exercise) but I dunno if anyone in Magneto's usual lineup can.

If it was a straight up fight, team Magneto vs team Voldemort, I give it to whoever wins initiative. If it is a war of strategy, and Magneto has someone to tell him what magic can do (maybe Scarlet Witch knows about Harry Potter curses and hexes? :smallbiggrin:) then Magneto as he is the better leader by far.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-10, 06:21 PM
The thing is, Magneto is one of the crazy god-mode guys. He can't create new reality, but he can twist it into pretty much any shape he wants with sufficiently contrived excuses as to why it counts as electromagnetism.

kpenguin
2012-07-10, 06:23 PM
Electromagnetism is one of the four fundamental forces holding the universe together. I gather that makes Magneto rather powerful.

KnightOfV
2012-07-10, 06:27 PM
True, but he can't bring himself back to life, or use psychic powers to sense that wizard in disguise sneaking up on him, or even fight off horrible magical fear. Magneto can die, but he can also move asteroids and kill with a finger flick. So like I said, I give it to whoever goes first.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-10, 06:30 PM
That just means we have to find an explanation as to why electromagnetism can make sure he goes first, however contrived it might be.:smallwink:

KnightOfV
2012-07-10, 06:33 PM
That just means we have to find an explanation as to why electromagnetism can make sure he goes first, however contrived it might be.:smallwink:

If the Marvel writing guys put their minds too it, I do not doubt even a little that they would think of something. :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-10, 06:38 PM
True, but he can't bring himself back to life, or use psychic powers to sense that wizard in disguise sneaking up on him, or even fight off horrible magical fear. Magneto can die, but he can also move asteroids and kill with a finger flick. So like I said, I give it to whoever goes first.

He can't bring himself back to life, no, but disguise and sneaking is easy enough to pass off as "telltale electromagnetic disturbances" or simply the fact that he's wary enough that it doesn't matter the disguise, he's not safe to sneak up on. Apparently he does the whole reading-micro-expressions thing, so you'd have to be a master-class actor for him to not notice a problem even with a disguise, potentially.
He's also mentally trained enough that he probably could fight off horrible magical fear even if his helmets protection fails him.

Bitter
2012-07-10, 06:54 PM
Ok, back to the portkey idea. Portkey random items, permanent sticking charm, banish it into the nearest mutant, activate. No need to walk up and poke juggy or whoever in the head with a wand to turn their costume into a portkey, just slap a bit of newspaper over their face with a sticking charm and send them on their way. Voldemort splits up his forces, his best portkey creators are in the back being protected by his front line fighters who are trying to hold off everyone long enough to get these things on them.

There is no mentioned limit on the size of the item that can be made into a portkey, so its not like the xmen are dodging shoes and soda cans. They could be made out of innocuous trash and battlefield debris. Depending on the lineup of mutants they are facing, this could work out decently. Get enough of the mutants removed from the field, even briefly, then dog pile whoever is left and repeat till they run out. Yeah there are a number of all star lineups that this wouldnt work on, but there are a few sets that it could work against.

Lots of problems with this idea.

First of all that it's not a standard Wizard tactic, so there's no reason for them to use it straight off. They would have to get in multiple fights with mutants and lose before they'd learn that they need to change their tactics.

Second of all, we don't know if it's possible. it is if you make certan sets of assumptions, but if one of those assumptions is wrong then it doesn't work. as portkeys are never used like this in the books, we have reason to think that the assumptions are false.

Thirdly, even if this works it is still dodgeable and blockable like Avada Kedavra.

Fourthly, even if the wizards can pull off this highly specific manoeuvres mutants can quickly counter it with ease. The psychics pulling information from wizard's heads will identify the portkeys and then telekinesis will send these portkeys right back at the wizards.

Fifthly, even this tactic leaves wizards far weaker than even fairly weak mutants like Cyclops who can take down masses of wizards in a literal blink of an eye rather than having to spend time casting spells.

Sixthly, this takes place in a large scale long-term battle rather than a sudden battle where the wizards develop a new tactic from nowhere. Mutant psychics who have mind-manipulating powers far beyond anything even the strongest wizards have exhibited will constantly be up to date on any wizard tactics

Lamech
2012-07-10, 10:57 PM
If wizards fight intelligently this ends a split second after it begins 'cause time travel. If wizards fight like normal they, they probably slap Muggle repelling charms on everything they own, cast an occasional mind control spell, and declare victory. If Voldemort tries to lead a world wide open take over, but everything else is the same Voldemort gets splattered because he's a moron.

Jayngfet
2012-07-11, 01:04 AM
"The ENTIRE wizarding world" is a bit of a stretch. Remember, we haven't seen the wizarding world, we've just seen Magical Britan, and brief hints of Romania and France, alongside tiny footnotes of the rest. There's too much unrevealed information to make that call. I mean Dumbledore and Voldemort are two guys in a relatively small country. There are probably at least a thousand guys on Dumbledores level handling their own problems in the whole world at least, and no doubt large numbers of spells and magical devices that never caught on in britan.

Making such a rough, sweeping claim with no real evidence one way or the other strikes me as a heavy Bias. I mean yeah, Magneto or Phoenix or whoever could solo everyone we've seen in the books but the books represent one tiny slice of a wider world in a specific time period it's already ended and moved past.

Xondoure
2012-07-11, 01:33 AM
"The ENTIRE wizarding world" is a bit of a stretch. Remember, we haven't seen the wizarding world, we've just seen Magical Britan, and brief hints of Romania and France, alongside tiny footnotes of the rest. There's too much unrevealed information to make that call. I mean Dumbledore and Voldemort are two guys in a relatively small country. There are probably at least a thousand guys on Dumbledores level handling their own problems in the whole world at least, and no doubt large numbers of spells and magical devices that never caught on in britan.

Making such a rough, sweeping claim with no real evidence one way or the other strikes me as a heavy Bias. I mean yeah, Magneto or Phoenix or whoever could solo everyone we've seen in the books but the books represent one tiny slice of a wider world in a specific time period it's already ended and moved past.

This is not the case. That or all wizarding governments hate each other, because all of Europe was terrorized by Voldemort and it's pretty heavily implied that during the height of his power no one could stop him. Harry Potter is rather Britain focused that way.

Of course, what the wizards really need more than anything is a way to break the speed barrier. A lot of what they can do is well beyond the level of most mutants (for example, transfiguration is an absolute wrecking ball against people without counter curses, and rivals Phoenix at her strongest with making people toys) But the problem is they just don't have the speed necessary to take on hypersonic opponents. With prep time, I'd honestly have to give it to wizards. Because potions are insane. Felix Felicis would make every single wizard Longshot with a better arsenal. And I would be shocked if the Department of Mysteries wasn't mass producing it. Department of Mysteries... I'm tempted to say half the projects in there could make this a fight. It isn't as if magical technology is at a stand still.

Yes this is all under dog hyping. Comic books have no sense of scale, and a really big scale.

oblivion6
2012-07-11, 02:21 AM
i agree, voldemort was terrorizing all of europe. i believe it was also implied that his reach extended into australia as well? am i correct in saying granger was from there for whatever reason?

Xondoure
2012-07-11, 03:39 AM
i agree, voldemort was terrorizing all of europe. i believe it was also implied that his reach extended into australia as well? am i correct in saying granger was from there for whatever reason?

She sent her parents to Australia to get them away from Voldemort. Evidently he wasn't interested in conquering that backwater. :smalltongue:

Bitter
2012-07-11, 03:42 AM
With prep time, I'd honestly have to give it to wizards. Because potions are insane. Felix Felicis would make every single wizard Longshot with a better arsenal. And I would be shocked if the Department of Mysteries wasn't mass producing it. Department of Mysteries... I'm tempted to say half the projects in there could make this a fight. It isn't as if magical technology is at a stand still.

If we're giving both sides prep time and unrestricted access to the materials of their world, which seems to be what you're suggesting, then Wizards go down even harder. With decades of comic history behind them, the mutants have a massive array of macguffins they can pick up ranging from the useful to the world shattering.

oblivion6
2012-07-11, 03:43 AM
She sent her parents to Australia to get them away from Voldemort. Evidently he wasn't interested in conquering that backwater. :smalltongue:

oh yes thats what it was, thanks for clearing that up:smallsmile:

Xondoure
2012-07-11, 03:52 AM
If we're giving both sides prep time and unrestricted access to the materials of their world, which seems to be what you're suggesting, then Wizards go down even harder. With decades of comic history behind them, the mutants have a massive array of macguffins they can pick up ranging from the useful to the world shattering.

I disagree. Simply because in universe they often have prep time, and at most go to Mr. Fantastic or Doctor Doom for a new device. Magneto isn't hunting down the cosmic cube on a regular basis. And for some reason Forge hasn't completely revolutionized technology for the entire planet (or the afore mentioneded mr. Fantastic, or Doom, or Pym, or Stark, or any other genius.) In other words Mcguffins only show up when the plot demands, and Super hero development is pretty static outside of power creep. What I can see is Magneto working with Charles to track down more mutants with Cerebero, and other such activities.

And mostly what I meant by prep time was the Wizards staying in hiding until they were ready to strike. This is under dog hyping we're talking about here. :smalltongue:

Bitter
2012-07-11, 04:06 AM
I disagree. Simply because in universe they often have prep time, and at most go to Mr. Fantastic or Doctor Doom for a new device. Magneto isn't hunting down the cosmic cube on a regular basis. And for some reason Forge hasn't completely revolutionized technology for the entire planet (or the afore mentioneded mr. Fantastic, or Doom, or Pym, or Stark, or any other genius.) In other words Mcguffins only show up when the plot demands, and Super hero development is pretty static outside of power creep. What I can see is Magneto working with Charles to track down more mutants with Cerebero, and other such activities.

If you're applying that thought process to mutants, apply it to wizards as well. Wizards don't go around buffing themselves with potions for battle. They are also only used when the plot demands.

You can't have it both ways.


And mostly what I meant by prep time was the Wizards staying in hiding until they were ready to strike. This is under dog hyping we're talking about here. :smalltongue:

If I'm allowed to stay hidden until I'm ready to strike, I'm pretty sure I could take out Magneto or Voldermort with a baseball bat to the back of the head while they're walking down the street.

Fan
2012-07-11, 04:57 AM
No you couldn't.

Magneto's shields are wired to his nervous system, AND he's a trained martial artist.

Couple that with his helmet, and I can garuntee you you wouldn't be taking Magneto out with a baseball bat.

If Thor's hammer can't do it (The same hammer than has caused global level destruction.), if Doctor Strange (The Sorcerer Supreme.) couldn't work hexes past Magneto's shield then you're probably not going to get past it with transfiguration, or well, anything in Harry Potter verse. Not even all of HP verse at once.

The best equivalent I can come up with is that a thousand water guns wont bring down a steel wall.

Bitter
2012-07-11, 05:30 AM
Hence why I said take him by surprise. I'd be attacking him on the streets of San Francisco while he's buying some eggs or something. He wouldn't be wearing a helmet, his nervous system wouldn't know jack about it until I'd whacked him round the back of the head and though he would certainly be able to outfight me even without powers if I didn't KO him, I'd have a decent chance of one hitting him so he doesn't get that chance.

My comment wasn't meant to denigrate Magneto, just to point out how stupid it is to say that one combatant gets to ambush another.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-11, 07:50 AM
She sent her parents to Australia to get them away from Voldemort. Evidently he wasn't interested in conquering that backwater. :smalltongue:

Nah, more like he knew there was a place even his magic wasn't tough enough to handle.:smallbiggrin:

Traab
2012-07-11, 07:55 AM
There is actually an interesting point here. The wizarding world is well hidden by a large combination of charms and wards. Notice me nots, muggle repelling, unplottable, etc, its entirely possible that only a very few mutants would even be capable of SEEING the wizards in order to fight them. Psychics like charles could point out the general location by sensing their minds, but for the most part, the vast majority of the mutants would approach say, diagon alley, then suddenly remember they left the engine running on the x-jet and leave. Now, this doesnt save the wizards from large scale annihilation techniques, but considering they tend to live hidden in the middle of high density muggle populations like london, its unlikely they would use such skills.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-11, 07:58 AM
I think that was why, at the very beginning, we tried to decide if mutants counted as Muggles or not for such effects.


Also, the image of Magneto going grocery shopping is hilarious.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-11, 08:06 AM
I think that was why, at the very beginning, we tried to decide if mutants counted as Muggles or not for such effects.


Also, the image of Magneto going grocery shopping is hilarious.


It kind of is.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L7FyNCeovZU/Tt9iUIOQfxI/AAAAAAAAGM8/xU8UZeF3J6E/s1600/magneto-cyclops.jpg

If we're still talking about the whole Mutant world, I'm sure they'll be able to find any number of ways to beat the whole hidden-world thing.

If it's just Magneto, he might have to bust out the old Astral Projection, though I'm not sure if he's done that since the really early days. :smallsmile:

Bitter
2012-07-11, 08:51 AM
Notice me nots, muggle repelling, unplottable, etc, its entirely possible that only a very few mutants would even be capable of SEEING the wizards in order to fight them.

I don't know what a notice me not is, but google search suggests it is a fan fiction spell.

Muggle Repelling and Unplottable are to stop areas being found. The wizards would have some safety while in these areas, but even then could still be found and the safety destroyed by psychics, magical mutants like Pixie, Scarlet Witch, Wiccan or Magik, powerful reality warpers or mutants with weird niche powers (Like Magneto being able to sense electromagnetic currents, which may or may not be blocked by spells).


Psychics like charles could point out the general location by sensing their minds

Psychics could take over the mind of someone inside there and start attacking all the other wizards or force them to dispel the protection.


but for the most part, the vast majority of the mutants would approach say, diagon alley, then suddenly remember they left the engine running on the x-jet and leave.

The core x-men all have really strong psychic defences, so I'm not sure if this would work against them or at least work fully. Not to mention that they can get mystical protection from the magical x-men or psychic protection from the psychic x-men. Plus due to being able to rip all the secrets of the HP world from the heads of wizards, they would know exactly what they are facing after the first battle and what they would need to counter it.

Traab
2012-07-11, 09:10 AM
I don't know what a notice me not is, but google search suggests it is a fan fiction spell.

Muggle Repelling and Unplottable are to stop areas being found. The wizards would have some safety while in these areas, but even then could still be found and the safety destroyed by psychics, magical mutants like Pixie, Scarlet Witch, Wiccan or Magik, powerful reality warpers or mutants with weird niche powers (Like Magneto being able to sense electromagnetic currents, which may or may not be blocked by spells).



Psychics could take over the mind of someone inside there and start attacking all the other wizards or force them to dispel the protection.



The core x-men all have really strong psychic defences, so I'm not sure if this would work against them or at least work fully. Not to mention that they can get mystical protection from the magical x-men or psychic protection from the psychic x-men. Plus due to being able to rip all the secrets of the HP world from the heads of wizards, they would know exactly what they are facing after the first battle and what they would need to counter it.

They couldnt take over the mind of a wizard and take down the protections, that might work when dealing with muggle repelling wards that were just cast or something, but I wouldnt think diagon alley could be exposed that easily. Also, keep in mind that mental protections are also a thing in harry potter as well. As I somehow doubt there were only three people in all of britain that knew occlumancy or legilimancy, I dont think any of the upper level wizards would be that easy to take over. The mental protections go both ways, as wizards are fully capable of tearing out your brain and wringing it dry of all information. Or taking over the nearest mutant and making him fight against the rest.

Sorry about the notice me not thing, its been awhile since I read the actual stories, I thought that was included. But basically, the nonmagical couldnt approach those areas. Im sure if it was written by a marvel writer, the xmen or whoever could just concentrate really hard and walk into diagon alley or something, but thats not how the spells work. You get close and suddenly you are walking away because you realize you forgot to do something important. The only option is long range attacks guided by the psychics who can tell the wizards are in "that" direction, and considering we are talking about the ministry and diagon alley being in the middle of downtown london, I dont see that happening.

Fan
2012-07-11, 09:22 AM
Charles Xavier, Emma Frost?

Either of them wouldn't have ANY trouble with any mental protections Harry Potter has as we haven't seen global scale mind rape.

And Charles has hit Galactus with the entire mental consciousness of the entire human race before.

Hell, given some time with Cerebro? Emma would probably work with forge, set it up to locate Wizards and start Hunter Killering via mind rape. Emma isn't like Charles.

polity4life
2012-07-11, 09:48 AM
Here's a twist for you all:

A portal of which the likes has never been seen opens up in the Harry Potter earth. Curious though fearful passersby look into this porthole in reality and see what appears to be another version of earth. Muggles and disguised wizards alike do not understand what this is. Is it a government project? Is it aliens? Is this a broken portkey? Is Voldermort at it again?!

One chubby kid looks a little closer, drops his ice cream, and mutters...

"Oh god...it's Earth 2149!"

And go.

Traab
2012-07-11, 09:51 AM
I didnt say it was foolproof, or that the psychics couldnt get past it. I was just saying that a large number of mutants wouldnt be able to. Really, this entire discussion is pointless if every time something is mentioned you just bring out one of the 50+ or so mutants capable of hurling the earth into hell or turning the universe inside out, or whatever insane level of power creep you want to reference. We already know that these omegas cant be stopped by anything short of gurren lagan level amounts of power. If even that would be of any use.

Fan
2012-07-11, 10:03 AM
Actually, I'd put Lady Death, and Dr.Strange fused with Eternity above Gurren lagann Levels.

Hell, any of the abstracts would be, Thanos with The Heart of the Universe. Galactus with the Ultimate Nullifier (Which Reed Richards has now.).

Pre Retcon Beyonder, Master Order, Lord Chaos, Eternity itself, any of the abstracts.

TTGL is big, but Marvel is one of the, if not THE, most powerful verse in fiction.

Bitter
2012-07-11, 10:45 AM
They couldnt take over the mind of a wizard and take down the protections, that might work when dealing with muggle repelling wards that were just cast or something, but I wouldnt think diagon alley could be exposed that easily.

Even Hogwarts, which also has magic on it to make it unplottable even to wizards, didn't stop (or even hinder) the Harry/Voldemort weird telepathy thing. In fact there was no indication at all that the magic which stops people physically reaching a location has any effect on long range mental effects. Not to mention that Marvel psychics are on a whole other level from what even the most powerful Wizards can do.


Also, keep in mind that mental protections are also a thing in harry potter as well. As I somehow doubt there were only three people in all of britain that knew occlumancy or legilimancy, I dont think any of the upper level wizards would be that easy to take over.

More than three, but only a small fraction considering we know that these aren't spells that are normally taught to wizards. So sure, Voldemort would have these as would his top Death Eaters. The average dark wizard that makes up the rank and file though? I can't see it.


The mental protections go both ways, as wizards are fully capable of tearing out your brain and wringing it dry of all information. Or taking over the nearest mutant and making him fight against the rest.

Marvel psychics can protect others though, unlike wizards who can only protect themselves. If a group of wizards and mutants were battling and the mutants hadn't fielded a psychic while the wizards had one of the powerful wizards, I could see it being used. Even then I can't see it being that effective though, seeing as it would leave the wizard vulnerable and the x-men have both global communication abilities and teleporters so they can get the right powerset to the right place in moment.

I also pity the wizard who tried to Legilimency on Cyclops seeing as he is so hardcore that he has permanently trapped a fraction of a near-omnipotent being in his psyche through sheer willpower.


But basically, the nonmagical couldnt approach those areas. Im sure if it was written by a marvel writer, the xmen or whoever could just concentrate really hard and walk into diagon alley or something, but thats not how the spells work. You get close and suddenly you are walking away because you realize you forgot to do something important.

That's a psychic effect. The X-men have amazingly powerful psychics. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

We know the Marvel psychics are incredibly powerful and are compatible with magic (Dr Stange, the Sorceror Supreme of the Marvel Universe uses the same Astral Plane that psychic mutants do and has got in mental battles with non-magicians before). We have no reason to think that the effects of these types of spells are incredibly powerful. We know they can make a normal guy decide to go do something else. We don't even know if they can stop a muggle from finding an area that they specifically set out to find seeing as muggles don't know about magic and so aren't specificalyl seeking out Daigon Alley or Hogwarts of the like, let alone people who have psychic defenses.


The only option is long range attacks guided by the psychics who can tell the wizards are in "that" direction, and considering we are talking about the ministry and diagon alley being in the middle of downtown london, I dont see that happening.

That or Pixie or Magik, who are both teleporters and sorcerors with weapons that destroy any magic that they touch could just teleport over, stab the wall of daigon alley and the protection would instantly falter.

Or a teleporter might be able to go there directly with a strike team, appearing directly inside these locations and bypassing the defences.

Or a mutants without conventional physiology and mentality like Warlock (A techno-organic alien mutant) could go there uneffected. Danger too if we count her.

Or one of the reality warpers could just destroy the barriers.

Or Juggerlossus could just drop down into the middle of it seeing as he's immune to mental effects like that until his helmet is off.

Or Forge or the X-men Science Club could develop a device specifically to counter this type of spell.

Or instead of trying to guide long range attacks from other guys, the psychics could just mentally attack people themselves.

Or Darwin could just go there and he would automatically adjust himself to not being effected by these spells.

Or one of the mutant magicians could just cast protective spells on the people going to attack these locations so they wouldn't be effected.

Or Namor could get amphibious sea monsters to attack these locations, seeing as I don't think non-humans would be counted as muggles.

Or Cypher the omniliguist who can read and understand anything, including active magic, could turn the spells off.

Or we could say that as everyone in the MU has the potential to be a magician even if they don't have magical knowledge yet, they don't count as muggles in the HPverse.

Or we could just say that the wizards can't hide in their safe locations forever and will have to come out eventually.

Basically there is just too much power and variety in the mutant line-up. Too many "I win" buttons and too varied to not have a counter to anything the Wizards can throw up.

Traab
2012-07-11, 11:27 AM
Even Hogwarts, which also has magic on it to make it unplottable even to wizards, didn't stop (or even hinder) the Harry/Voldemort weird telepathy thing. In fact there was no indication at all that the magic which stops people physically reaching a location has any effect on long range mental effects. Not to mention that Marvel psychics are on a whole other level from what even the most powerful Wizards can do.



More than three, but only a small fraction considering we know that these aren't spells that are normally taught to wizards. So sure, Voldemort would have these as would his top Death Eaters. The average dark wizard that makes up the rank and file though? I can't see it.



Marvel psychics can protect others though, unlike wizards who can only protect themselves. If a group of wizards and mutants were battling and the mutants hadn't fielded a psychic while the wizards had one of the powerful wizards, I could see it being used. Even then I can't see it being that effective though, seeing as it would leave the wizard vulnerable and the x-men have both global communication abilities and teleporters so they can get the right powerset to the right place in moment.

I also pity the wizard who tried to Legilimency on Cyclops seeing as he is so hardcore that he has permanently trapped a fraction of a near-omnipotent being in his psyche through sheer willpower.



That's a psychic effect. The X-men have amazingly powerful psychics. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

We know the Marvel psychics are incredibly powerful and are compatible with magic (Dr Stange, the Sorceror Supreme of the Marvel Universe uses the same Astral Plane that psychic mutants do and has got in mental battles with non-magicians before). We have no reason to think that the effects of these types of spells are incredibly powerful. We know they can make a normal guy decide to go do something else. We don't even know if they can stop a muggle from finding an area that they specifically set out to find seeing as muggles don't know about magic and so aren't specificalyl seeking out Daigon Alley or Hogwarts of the like, let alone people who have psychic defenses.



That or Pixie or Magik, who are both teleporters and sorcerors with weapons that destroy any magic that they touch could just teleport over, stab the wall of daigon alley and the protection would instantly falter.

Or a teleporter might be able to go there directly with a strike team, appearing directly inside these locations and bypassing the defences.

Or a mutants without conventional physiology and mentality like Warlock (A techno-organic alien mutant) could go there uneffected. Danger too if we count her.

Or one of the reality warpers could just destroy the barriers.

Or Juggerlossus could just drop down into the middle of it seeing as he's immune to mental effects like that until his helmet is off.

Or Forge or the X-men Science Club could develop a device specifically to counter this type of spell.

Or instead of trying to guide long range attacks from other guys, the psychics could just mentally attack people themselves.

Or Darwin could just go there and he would automatically adjust himself to not being effected by these spells.

Or one of the mutant magicians could just cast protective spells on the people going to attack these locations so they wouldn't be effected.

Or Namor could get amphibious sea monsters to attack these locations, seeing as I don't think non-humans would be counted as muggles.

Or Cypher the omniliguist who can read and understand anything, including active magic, could turn the spells off.

Or we could say that as everyone in the MU has the potential to be a magician even if they don't have magical knowledge yet, they don't count as muggles in the HPverse.

Or we could just say that the wizards can't hide in their safe locations forever and will have to come out eventually.

Basically there is just too much power and variety in the mutant line-up. Too many "I win" buttons and too varied to not have a counter to anything the Wizards can throw up.

1) What I meant was, they couldnt mind control some random wizard in diagon, or likely even the minister himself, and have them deactivate the muggle repelling charms or other protective wards.

2) We honestly just have no way to tell. When you combine that with the fact that in 4th year fake moody was testing people to see if they could learn to resist the imperious, clearly it IS possible to resist mutant psychics, to some extent at least, from invading their minds and taking info at will, or just mind controlling the wizards like its nothing. Yes yes yes, cerebro, planetary mind rapes, i get it. Im just saying that barring these world ending mutant powers, wizards arent defenseless

3)True, marvel psychics can protect others. Assuming they know who is getting their mind scanned, or who was just imperioused into shooting them in the face. Also, this is one of those times where we have to ask how much is it reasonable for them to do at once? Lets say for the sake of argument, that charles could protect his entire sides minds from feeling the effects of the repelling wards. Lets say he can also protect them from mind control/reading at the same time. Can he still be himself taking over well defended minds at the same time? Oh sure we can just wave our hands and say yes, but be reasonable here, there have to be limits to what he can do, he isnt a god, capable of doing 50 things at a time, even if he can do 1-3 of them at once really well.

4) See previous answer.

5)Im not going to go through that entire list. As I said, nothing is fool proof, and im sure several of those are dangerously accurate ideas. On the other hand, several are not. For example, Warlock might get his ass fried trying to function in diagon alley long enough to do anything, tech doesnt work well around hp magic. And I really dont see how cypher can understand energy. Maybe if he stood there watching them cast spells he could figure it out, but those protections have been in place for centuries. I admit I dont know much about him, just that he can apparently learn any language, and is able to fight by interpreting martial arts as a language or some such bs justification.

6) As for waiting the magicals out, most of the pureblood spend their entire lives in magical locations only. They dont go wandering down muggle main street, they floo from their heavily warded manor houses, to diagon alley, to wherever else they need to go, back to home, never once leaving the protection of wards. Im not certain, but I believe they can even travel that way internationally through portkeys and such.

Fan
2012-07-11, 12:02 PM
Again, Charles isn't the only world mind raper. The Phoenix / Jean Grey / The Phoenix 5 / Emma Frost / The Cuckoo's / Scarlet Witch / etc.

Then you have Cyclops, Juggernaut, and Magneto all capable of solo'ing the HP verse who would all resist anything HP verse has to put out mind rape wise without their respective resistance equipment.

I know this, because Magneto has stood up to Charles without it on occasion, and Juggernaut can literally just tank it, the man is almost literally indestructible and is said to be able to survive the end of a universe, and Cyclops just has the equivalent of IRON HEART SURGE when it comes to mind affecting abilities.

And as it has been said, they don't even need the globe busters to do so, Colossus has durability feats against magic which have allowed him to fight with Doctor Doom on occasion, and Doctor Doom is more of a sorcerer again, than all of HP verse combined.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-11, 12:20 PM
Actually, I'd put Lady Death, and Dr.Strange fused with Eternity above Gurren lagann Levels.

Hell, any of the abstracts would be, Thanos with The Heart of the Universe. Galactus with the Ultimate Nullifier (Which Reed Richards has now.).

Pre Retcon Beyonder, Master Order, Lord Chaos, Eternity itself, any of the abstracts.

TTGL is big, but Marvel is one of the, if not THE, most powerful verse in fiction.

Marvel vs The Culture?

Two massive heavyweights there...

Bitter
2012-07-11, 12:20 PM
1) What I meant was, they couldnt mind control some random wizard in diagon, or likely even the minister himself, and have them deactivate the muggle repelling charms or other protective wards.

Why not?


2) We honestly just have no way to tell.

Well no, the fact that it is not ordinarily taught but two powerful wizards knew it is how we tell. Most wizards don't know it but powerful ones do. Rowling could come out and say something completely different, but at the moment that's what makes sense and it's either go with that or drop the issue entirely.

Besides, the defensive aspect is done purely by clearing your mind of whatever you're thinking of. It doesn't erect a magic shield of any kind, it just causes that one specific spell to read nothing. Trying not to think of anything doesn't work on Marvel's psychic powers.


When you combine that with the fact that in 4th year fake moody was testing people to see if they could learn to resist the imperious, clearly it IS possible to resist mutant psychics, to some extent at least, from invading their minds and taking info at will, or just mind controlling the wizards like its nothing.

Yes, telepathy can be very occasionally resisted by sheer willpower. However the scale of willpower is very different between universes.

In HP wizards can control one mind at a time. In Marvel, the more powerful mutants like the Shadow King can mind control millions of people at once.

The scale is just completely different.


Yes yes yes, cerebro, planetary mind rapes, i get it. Im just saying that barring these world ending mutant powers, wizards arent defenseless

True, it is just that their defences aren't really very good :(

They have two defences, occlumency and willpower.

Willpower is simply willpower. Most wizards don't have enough willpower to throw off an Imperius Curse even when expecting it and being trained in it, let alone defeat an attack from a high end telepath which ignores willpower altogether unless it gets to ridiculous comic-book levels of insane willpower (which it doesn't in HP).

Occlumency isn't taught to Wizards so we can expect only a few wizards to know it. On top of that, it isn't a magic spell. It is basically just meditating and clearing your mind, which happens to be the specific foil of Legilimency. It isn't shown to counter any other type of mental effect like Imperius Curse, so I have no idea why we would assume it would effect telepathic attacks which aren't effected by what the victim happens to be thinking.


3)True, marvel psychics can protect others. Assuming they know who is getting their mind scanned, or who was just imperioused into shooting them in the face.

You can't have magical and psionic transparency one moment and then not have it the next. In your last point you say that they do interact and HP wizards should be able to defend themselves. Now you're saying they don't interact and Marvel psychics wouldn't be able to sense magical mental attacks coming at them.

Choose one or the other and run with it. I don't mind which, but you can't have it both ways.


Also, this is one of those times where we have to ask how much is it reasonable for them to do at once? Lets say for the sake of argument, that charles could protect his entire sides minds from feeling the effects of the repelling wards. Lets say he can also protect them from mind control/reading at the same time. Can he still be himself taking over well defended minds at the same time? Oh sure we can just wave our hands and say yes, but be reasonable here, there have to be limits to what he can do, he isnt a god, capable of doing 50 things at a time, even if he can do 1-3 of them at once really well.

I'm not suggesting one mutant does everything, although I could probably put together an argument for the really strong ones being able to do so. Let's put Charles just on defence. Shadow King has shown himself capable of controlling millions of minds at once, so he can go on the offensive and mind-control attack every single wizard simultaneously and constantly. Gamesmaster can hear the thoughts of every single person on earth without even trying, so he can do all the spying and mind reading.

That still leaves plenty of Omega and high level telepaths in reserve like the Cuckoos, Rachel Grey, Emma Frost, Psylocke, Quentin Quire, etc just in case one of the above needs help as well as a few weaker ones like M who'd be more useful on the front lines.


For example, Warlock might get his ass fried trying to function in diagon alley long enough to do anything, tech doesnt work well around hp magic.

Some technology does work, some doesn't. As the technology that Warlock is composed of so advanced that it's indistinguishable from magic and is also partly organic, I'd argue for it working. Also based on the number of times the New Mutants got involved with Asgard and other magic places I'd guess there's at least a few examples of him actually absorbing magical energy to become stronger if I find time to flick through some New Mutants comics.


And I really dont see how cypher can understand energy. Maybe if he stood there watching them cast spells he could figure it out, but those protections have been in place for centuries. I admit I dont know much about him, just that he can apparently learn any language, and is able to fight by interpreting martial arts as a language or some such bs justification.

He's shown the ability to read magic like that, that's not just an interpretation. Used it recently in a crossover with Thor and Kid Loki if I remember rightly.


6) As for waiting the magicals out, most of the pureblood spend their entire lives in magical locations only. They dont go wandering down muggle main street, they floo from their heavily warded manor houses, to diagon alley, to wherever else they need to go, back to home, never once leaving the protection of wards. Im not certain, but I believe they can even travel that way internationally through portkeys and such.

Well if they are happy to stay in their houses doing nothing while the mutants methodically take down the entire wizarding world, cool.

Xondoure
2012-07-11, 02:23 PM
One mind at a time... you sure about that? It's sort of implied half the people in power are under the imperious curse by the end.

Look the one situation in which the Wizards win is assuming the two worlds have always been the same world (which the OP sort of implies) then the wizard protection spells have worked for decades. This means Voldemort gets too strike only when he's ready. This means potion buffing, skrull level infiltration, pocket dimensions, time travel, invisible silent occlumens, and so much more.

Funny thought, the room of requirement. I need to find a way to fight mutants I need to find a way to fight mutants I need to find a way to fight mutants. ding. World's most complete marvel comics collection.

Lastly, saying Transfiguration won't work because mutants are too powerful to be transfigured... wha?

Bitter
2012-07-11, 02:38 PM
One mind at a time... you sure about that? It's sort of implied half the people in power are under the imperious curse by the end.

Badly phrased. They can try to control one mind at a time. Once they have that under control they can try to control another.

Thing is, before the wizards have finished casting their first spell, the mutants could have mentally attacked every wizard in existence.


Look the one situation in which the Wizards win is assuming the two worlds have always been the same world (which the OP sort of implies) then the wizard protection spells have worked for decades. This means Voldemort gets too strike only when he's ready. This means potion buffing, skrull level infiltration, pocket dimensions, time travel, invisible silent occlumens, and so much more.

Why would Wizard protection spells have worked for decades? Why do Wizard protection spells working mean that Voldemort only gets to strike when he is ready?

Also there is no situation in which the wizards win. There are some mutants that simply can't be stopped by the capabilities of HPverse wizards. I'm not even talking about reality warpers, who wizards could conceivably beat if they somehow took them unaware. Rather, people with weird powers like the Shadow King who could only be hurt if wizards travelled to the astral plane to fight him, which they can't do.

Fan
2012-07-11, 02:41 PM
One mind at a time... you sure about that? It's sort of implied half the people in power are under the imperious curse by the end.

Look the one situation in which the Wizards win is assuming the two worlds have always been the same world (which the OP sort of implies) then the wizard protection spells have worked for decades. This means Voldemort gets too strike only when he's ready. This means potion buffing, skrull level infiltration, pocket dimensions, time travel, invisible silent occlumens, and so much more.

Funny thought, the room of requirement. I need to find a way to fight mutants I need to find a way to fight mutants I need to find a way to fight mutants. ding. World's most complete marvel comics collection.

Lastly, saying Transfiguration won't work because mutants are too powerful to be transfigured... wha?

It's an actual thing in Marvel verse. The Sorcerer Supreme is QUITE adept at transfiguration.

DiscipleofBob
2012-07-11, 02:47 PM
Funny thought, the room of requirement. I need to find a way to fight mutants I need to find a way to fight mutants I need to find a way to fight mutants. ding. World's most complete marvel comics collection.

And Sentinels burst through the door and everyone dies.

Traab
2012-07-11, 02:54 PM
Just wanted to make a couple points. You talk about how warlock functions around the asgard, its a different kind of magic, or do they use magic wands and bad latin to create their magic? The hp universe has different rules for how magic works than the marvel universe does. In hp universe magic and technology above the levels of electricity just dont mesh. They can make cars and bikes work with extensive charms and such, but ill bet neither of the two have any form of computer chip in them. Hp magic just fries tech, period.

Now, I wont be so bold as to claim that invalidates forge, as his power is that of the ultimate mary sue, if he needs it, he can make it, so if he needs tech that works around magic and can shut it down, boom, he makes it. He is literally a walking deus ex machina. Adam West Batman would have forges love child for the chance to equip his utility belt with that level of ass pullery. Anyways, im drifting off point.

Why not? Because random wizard on the street wont know what to do to remove these centuries old wards and protections. Thats why not. It would be like me mind controlling you and demanding the nuclear launch codes for canada. It WOULD work to take down any temporary measures, like say voldemort and crew arrange the battlefield and putup specific wards to try and whittle the mutants down but got mind controlled into removing them. Which brings me to an interesting theoretical point.

Anti Apparition Wards. Voldemort and crew have portkeys, apparition is a different style of teleportation. THROW ME A *^&%$&^%$ BONE HERE! *cough* I mean, imagine if they worked to stop all or most teleportation powers? That ward could be a handy way to weaken a lot of mutants, some who use teleporting as their primary skill, and others who use a variation of it as a supplemental technique to increase mobility. Every little bit helps. Though this one is a bit shaky it has potential.

Well three of them actually, counting snape. And I always found it hard to believe that he was the only one available to teach harry. It had top be a setup for dumbledoore trying to make sure harry wasnt getting possessed. But I will concede the point that it isnt a common skill or else virtually anyone could have helped harry , or at least offered advice.

Hey Xon, I think he more meant the wizards have to cast it on each target one at a time. Its never very clear exactly how many can be controlled at one time. There were a LOT of loyal lackeys around to share the load, so its not like voldy had to control 90% of the ministry.

What I meant about knowing the mental attack is going on is that unless the mutants have a psychic presence directly in their head at all times, (possible to block this very strategy) then they wouldnt know they just lost, I dunno, storm, until she launches some lightning towards their camp, or can figure out her high flying is being used to gather information on troop placement for the wizard side or something. The actual controlled mutant doesnt matter, I was just making my point. Now, as I said, that doesnt mean they CANT detect it, just that they would have to be looking for it. And I faintly recall every now and then an enemy psychic would take the xmen by surprise because they didnt announce the incoming attack so they could prepare for it. So, I wouldnt be surprised if in the heat of battle it worked at least a couple times before the mutant psychics started shutting that method down.

They dont need to stay in their houses, they can travel anywhere in the magical world, not country, WORLD, without leaving their protections. So the sit them out and wait strategy on the part of the mutants wouldnt be very effective.

Kinslayer
2012-07-11, 03:06 PM
It would be like me mind controlling you and demanding the nuclear launch codes for canada.

>_>

/nonuclearweapons.gif

Traab
2012-07-11, 03:09 PM
>_>

/nonuclearweapons.gif

See? If I had mind controlled YOU it would have worked!

HalfTangible
2012-07-11, 03:24 PM
Whuh, limits? This is the guy who used magnetism to create ice. Voldemort has to use specific spells, Magneto can do basically anything as long as he calls it "magnetic something".And voldy can do basically anything with, as the giant put it, 'badly mangled latin and questionable logic'.


...no. Voldemort wants to kill all the muggles, including mutants; why would Magneto agree to that? And where did you get the idea that Voldemort doesn't like killing people?

A) Magneto would see wizards as a highly numerous form of mutant. Probably.

B) Voldemort would like to kill Magneto but he's not an idiot - the guy can levitate asteroids and create ice with magnets. If he's got a way to avoid fighting THAT until he can come up with a way to win, he'll do it.

Fan
2012-07-11, 03:33 PM
And voldy can do basically anything with, as the giant put it, 'badly mangled latin and questionable logic'.



A) Magneto would see wizards as a highly numerous form of mutant. Probably.

B) Voldemort would like to kill Magneto but he's not an idiot - the guy can levitate asteroids and create ice with magnets. If he's got a way to avoid fighting THAT until he can come up with a way to win, he'll do it.

A:)
Nothing he can do, plenty of things more powerful than AK have been stopped by Magneto's shields and since they're constantly up when he has his armor on for battle, or in a fight at all. (And Voldemort if anyone, is fond of speeches before he kills someone, or VERY LOUD entrances, and again, wouldn't. Because they can monitor his brain at all times. Yes, even then. No. Anti Mind Reading Charms aren't strong enough.)

Charles is a better psychic than Imperio / Cruciatis, and Magneto could endure the pain anyways. The man lived through the Holocaust. Nuff' Said.

I'm still not seeing any incentive for Magneto not to drop a meteor of magical England.

Not like he cares up there on Asteroid M anyways.

HalfTangible
2012-07-11, 03:54 PM
A:)
Nothing he can do, plenty of things more powerful than AK have been stopped by Magneto's shields and since they're constantly up when he has his armor on for battle, or in a fight at all.We don't really have an accurate comparison between AK and anything that isn't magic to make that argument, but assuming you're correct, Avada Kedavra is just one spell. One exceedingly POWERFUL spell, and the fact that Magneto is defeated at all tells me that the shield can be overcome.


(And Voldemort if anyone, is fond of speeches before he kills someone, or VERY LOUD entrances, and again, wouldn't. Because they can monitor his brain at all times. Yes, even then. No. Anti Mind Reading Charms aren't strong enough.)I sincerely think you're underestimating the mass-murdering near-deific psycho to assume that making big megalomaniac speeches are going to matter any more in this fight than they have against anyone else, but let's assume you're right.

Ahem.

SO DOES MAGNETO!!


Charles is a better psychic than Imperio / Cruciatis, and Magneto could endure the pain anyways.I thought Charles was Xavier Professor Charles Xavier, ie Professor X :smallconfused:

Cruciatis Spells are not psychic abilities, it is implied Cruciatus causes however much pain you want it to and would enjoy (i swear, if you try to suggest Voldy doesn't enjoy pain enough to hurt him...), and Imperio (probably) is defended against in a different manner than mutant psychic powers.

I wouldn't know, I'm not a big X-Men junkie and they don't explain how anyone resists Imperio effectively anyway.


The man lived through the Holocaust. Nuff' Said....

I'm going to simply tell you that's an invalid argument for several reasons and then steer clear of this minefield. :smallannoyed:


I'm still not seeing any incentive for Magneto not to drop a meteor of magical England.

Because he likes to think he's an antihero and won't slaughter potentially thousands of British mutants without giving them a chance to join him first.

Prime32
2012-07-11, 04:10 PM
We don't really have an accurate comparison between AK and anything that isn't magic to make that argument, but assuming you're correct, Avada Kedavra is just one spell. One exceedingly POWERFUL spell, and the fact that Magneto is defeated at all tells me that the shield can be overcome.That "exceedingly POWERFUL spell" has been blocked by things including a tombstone and a statue, and it didn't even destroy the statue. Magneto has been subjected to nuke-level attacks. Even his weakest incarnations couldn't be one-shotted by that.


Imperio (probably) is defended against in a different manner than mutant psychic powers.It's defended against by willpower, which the X-Men have in spades.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-11, 04:36 PM
That "exceedingly POWERFUL spell" has been blocked by things including a tombstone and a statue, and it didn't even destroy the statue. Magneto has been subjected to nuke-level attacks. Even his weakest incarnations couldn't be one-shotted by that.


It is really surprising that a spell designed to kill a living person instantly doesn't work right when it hits an inanimate object?:smallconfused: A spell like AK can't be measured in megatons of TNT or whatever, because it's effect isn't analogous to an explosion. If it hits, it kills without leaving a mark or any aftereffects...so all you're saying is Magneto wouldn't be affected by an AK hitting next to him and spraying him with shrapnel. No proof at all he could tank a direct hit, if Voldemort manages to land one.

HalfTangible
2012-07-11, 04:45 PM
That "exceedingly POWERFUL spell" has been blocked by things including a tombstone and a statue, and it didn't even destroy the statue. Magneto has been subjected to nuke-level attacks. Even his weakest incarnations couldn't be one-shotted by that.We're ignoring the movies for both of these characters and it destroyed statues in the books.

Further, in-universe, the spell can't be defended against by shields.

It's defended against by willpower, which the X-Men have in spades.

Ok, I'll give you that on,e but it's also implied you need to be exposed to the curse. In the three cases* i can think of off the top of my head where the Imperius curse was successfully resisted, the subject had been exposed either many times or for a very long period to that spell - and all three subjects (apparently) had a great deal of willpower.

*Both of the Crouches were exposed for months before they began to resist (i think Crouch Jr. was exposed for years) and Harry was subjected to it by Crouch Jr. as Moody for hours in at least one class. And in Harry's case, it still paralyzed him until he threw it off.

Fan
2012-07-11, 05:11 PM
We don't really have an accurate comparison between AK and anything that isn't magic to make that argument, but assuming you're correct, Avada Kedavra is just one spell. One exceedingly POWERFUL spell, and the fact that Magneto is defeated at all tells me that the shield can be overcome.

I sincerely think you're underestimating the mass-murdering near-deific psycho to assume that making big megalomaniac speeches are going to matter any more in this fight than they have against anyone else, but let's assume you're right.

Ahem.

SO DOES MAGNETO!!

I thought Charles was Xavier Professor Charles Xavier, ie Professor X :smallconfused:

Cruciatis Spells are not psychic abilities, it is implied Cruciatus causes however much pain you want it to and would enjoy (i swear, if you try to suggest Voldy doesn't enjoy pain enough to hurt him...), and Imperio (probably) is defended against in a different manner than mutant psychic powers.

I wouldn't know, I'm not a big X-Men junkie and they don't explain how anyone resists Imperio effectively anyway.

...

I'm going to simply tell you that's an invalid argument for several reasons and then steer clear of this minefield. :smallannoyed:



Because he likes to think he's an antihero and won't slaughter potentially thousands of British mutants without giving them a chance to join him first.

Yes.. Yes we do have an accurate comparison given his shield is not living.

It is not a magical barrier (Which is what it's said it can't be stopped by by HP verse standards), and it has stopped TWO NUKES AT ONCE.

To imply it couldn't stop an AK is laughable.

There is literally no basis in that argument that could be imagined. Ever. No. Your perceived basis is wrong. That is the level of seperation we are talking here.

Magneto is faster, his reactions are faster than spells can be cast, no AK is not non verbal. His shields are faster than his already hypersonic + reactions.

You could fit a thousand wands together, and fire them in a gatling gun formation of only AK spells and it would not scratch Magneto's shields.

Two Nukes > The entire HP wizarding world at the same time.

My point in my argument, is that Cruciatis has been resisted by people before, it has also broken people on the lower end of the hero grade willpower scale.

However, Magneto transcends the Harry Potter will power scale, he has lived through, and endured YEARS of torture.

Cruciatis causing unlimited pain is also a no limits fallacy.

Xondoure
2012-07-11, 05:13 PM
AK is nonverbal, should his shield not be up it will kill him. In the books anything hit by AK is destroyed, so it's possible AK would end his shield.

Fan
2012-07-11, 05:16 PM
AK is nonverbal, should his shield not be up it will kill him. In the books anything hit by AK is destroyed, so it's possible AK would end his shield.

No, it's not. It's stopped by desks, it's stopped by statues, it's stopped by walls.

Magneto's shield may as well be a mountain in the way.

If AK couldn't be stopped by anything it wouldn't be stopped by Hogwarts Castle at all, no magical protections don't count as AK gets around magical protections.

However, Magneto's shield is an electro magnetic barrier that's stopped things far and beyond the entireity of Hogwarts castle being dropped on him, of the entire weight of the city of England being dropped on him at the same time.

Of over 200 times the energy of the only atomic bombs in human history to be detonated in war.

There is nothing in HP verse that can touch it.

Xondoure
2012-07-11, 05:22 PM
No, it's not. It's stopped by desks, it's stopped by statues, it's stopped by walls.

Magneto's shield may as well be a mountain in the way.

If AK couldn't be stopped by anything it wouldn't be stopped by Hogwarts Castle at all, no magical protections don't count as AK gets around magical protections.

However, Magneto's shield is an electro magnetic barrier that's stopped things far and beyond the entireity of Hogwarts castle being dropped on him, of the entire weight of the city of England being dropped on him at the same time.

Of over 200 times the energy of the only atomic bombs in human history to be detonated in war.

There is nothing in HP verse that can touch it.

I don't think your quite grasping the nature of the spell. It kills things. Full stop. It doesn't matter what the thing is once it makes contact that thing is gone. For souls this means they die. For everything else, it means destruction. Magneto does have a way to counter this: multiple shield walls. Question is if he would figure that out before the spell ended him.

Fan
2012-07-11, 05:25 PM
I don't think your quite grasping the nature of the spell. It kills things. Full stop. It doesn't matter what the thing is once it makes contact that thing is gone. For souls this means they die. For everything else, it means destruction. Magneto does have a way to counter this: multiple shield walls. Question is if he would figure that out before the spell ended him.

That's a no limits fallacy, and again, things that have stopped AK have yielded to things that Magneto's shields scoff at.

I don't think you're grasping that AK isn't an unstoppable juggernaut by everything, just because it can't be stopped by HP Verse spells, but can be stopped by physical barriers, does not mean that it can break everything form every setting.

That is the DEFINITION of a no limits fallacy.

HalfTangible
2012-07-11, 05:27 PM
Yes.. Yes we do have an accurate comparison given his shield is not living.Not really. The only energy shield in the HP universe is Protego and it doesn't even slow it down.


It is not a magical barrier, and it has stopped TWO NUKES AT ONCE.

To imply it couldn't stop an AK is laughable.I'm implying that it's the wrong kind of shield. Not laughable. A steel grill could stop a cannonball but it wouldn't even slow down a flood. Like that.

EDIT: To clarify: The barriers you keep bringing up are solid objects: walls, desks, chairs. The Electromagnetic field is not solid, so i don't really see the comparison here


There is literally no basis in that argument that could be imagined. Ever. No. Your perceived basis is wrong. That is the level of seperation we are talking here.Excuse me, but I'm trying to have a civil argument here and your dismissive (at best) attitude is not conducive to such. Could you please be civil and present actual points instead of complete and total hyperbole? Okay? okay.


Magneto is faster, his reactions are faster than spells can be cast, no AK is not non verbal.See, THAT is an actual point.

And, Apparate. Nonverbal teleportation that can be cast whenever or wherever at will, has an unlimited range as far as we know, and has been used in battle by everybody and their mother. Speed is not an issue here.


Two Nukes > The entire HP wizarding world at the same time.

Show me one instance where a nuke has actually been employed in the HP universe, or anything close enough to a nuke to show that this statement is true :smallannoyed: Because as far as I know, everything in HP has been precision strike and small scale. Guerilla, at best. It's implied Voldemort can do more than shown (the biggest I can think of off the top of my head is splitting a bridge in half without breaking a sweat) and can maintain spells of extreme complexity from across the world, but all we have seen of his spells and spells employed against him are the equivalent of counter-strike matches.

Fan
2012-07-11, 05:32 PM
And that's the point.

Implications don't mean anything, and the spells that miss have been stopped by walls.

Walls can stop them. Protego is a spell shield, not an energy shield. It'd be different if it was a psychic barrier, because we have to be fair and assume transparency.

And apparition doesn't allow you to act while appritioning, it's a method of getting from point A to point B.

The dismissive attitude is trying to get a point across.

You could hit Magneto with an AK from everyone in the universe at the same time. From the smallest child, to the oldest man. And it wouldn't do jack. Their destructive capacity is at small building level AT BEST with their most powerful, and forbidden, magics that are insanely difficult to control.

Magneto has tanked 2 nukes at the same time, each at least a megaton in yield (by the word of Hank Maccoy, a renowned scientist.) with his shield, yes it hurt, but it was done.

1 megaton yield is equivalent to 100 Hiroshimas. Keep in mind he was able to eyeball it at a megaton, this probably means more.

He tanked two of these. These are atomic bombs we are talking about.

There is NOTHING in HP verse that can compare to this. Nothing. Not even all of it at once firing it's most powerful area of destruction spell.

Selrahc
2012-07-11, 05:35 PM
Marvel vs The Culture?

The only thing we've seen in the Culture that gets up to high Marvelverse levels of power is the Excession. Everything else operates on a level around "Blowing up stars", but nowhere near "Blowing up the entire universe/multiverse/reality" which is where the big dogs in Marvel hang. The Culture would smoke Marvel Earth in a cloud of nanorobots, but there isn't anything they could really do against say... Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. Because the Culture ultimately plays by the rules, while the top tier in Marvel just reshape reality.

The only hope for the Culture is to take things from the Marvel universe, and then use them in a more intelligent manner.

Fan
2012-07-11, 05:39 PM
Nah, Dr.Strange will fuse with Eternity if it comes down to Earth being doomed.

Eternity is the abstract being that created the megaverse (Was created by The One Above All for this purpose.), and is in control of all matter, space, and time and is omnipresent aside from this, the only thing he can't control is The Living Tribunal.

Any one of the abstracts, the Beyonder (Pre Retcon), or The New Sentry can tank it.

And I'm pretty confident Thor could handle single combat being so much faster than them (Triple the Speed of Light in space combat while retaining ability to interact with real space.).

Sure, Gridfire would probably toast the planet without Reed Richards having enough time to drop Earth into The Phantom Zone.

The Cultures only real weakness is that A: They have a canon non ability to Time Travel, and B: They are limited to their universe canonically.

And that's what toasts them.

Analysis
2012-07-11, 05:39 PM
What I am curious about is Magneto (plus, say, his movie crew of mutants) versus Harry Potter and the Laws of Rationality Voldemort. :smallsmile:

HalfTangible
2012-07-11, 05:50 PM
And that's the point....

Sorry, what? :smallconfused: Protego is an energy shield that can't stop AK, so a different energy shield CAN? That doesn't make any sense.


Implications don't mean anything, and the spells that miss have been stopped by walls.That's like saying 'im implying Daleks are stronger than Imperial Guardsmen' is automatically invalid because it's an implication instead of outright statement of fact. I have to use 'imply' to be fair to both universes because these two forces have never actually encountered each other in canon.


Walls can stop them. Protego is a spell shield, not an energy shield. It'd be different if it was a psychic barrier, because we have to be fair and assume transparency.

As the (late) clarification pointed out, walls are solid objects, not energy shields. This argument is invalid. Especially since we're not using the movie versions of these characters, and AK in the books vaporizes/shatters the first thing it touches if said thing isn't a person.

...Also, your argument makes no sense to me. A spell shield can't block it, so a completely unrelated shield CAN?


And apparition doesn't allow you to act while appritioning, it's a method of getting from point A to point B. And? Your point was that Magneto would be too fast for Voldy to cast spells. When Voldy has a method of travelling miles instantaneously.


The dismissive attitude is trying to get a point across.

No, an attitude NEVER gets a point across. What you say can, but you have said nothing that could convince me otherwise even if I wasn't playing devil's advocate.


You could hit Magneto with an AK from everyone in the universe at the same time. From the smallest child, to the oldest man. And it wouldn't do jack. Their destructive capacity is at small building level AT BEST with their most powerful, and forbidden, magics that are insanely difficult to control.You need a massive amount of power, even for a wizard, to cast AK. To the degree that an entire room full of schoolchildren couldn't cause so much as a nosebleed with it. This is not even close to a sensible argument AND YOU KNOW IT!!


There is NOTHING in HP verse that can compare to this. Nothing. Not even all of it at once firing it's most powerful area of destruction spell.

To overcome it, maybe. My point is that you don't NEED to overcome his shield, you just need something that goes through it, which the HP universe DOES have and has proven to have over and over again. Something specifically designed to block spells can't even slow AK down, why would an electromagnetic barrier?

If Magneto got a physical wall up in time, it would be a different argument. But you keep insisting on this shield of his.

Aotrs Commander
2012-07-11, 05:54 PM
I don't think your quite grasping the nature of the spell. It kills things. Full stop. It doesn't matter what the thing is once it makes contact that thing is gone. For souls this means they die. For everything else, it means destruction.

No, that's incorrect, actually. AK is basically a ranged touch no-save Finger of Death - powerful, but by no means that powerful. AK was blocked by the animate centaur statue in OotP, and it failed to destroy both that and even to de-animate it. So it doesn't always destroy non-living matter (heck, Harry hid behind the tomb stones in GoF, didn't he? It might have knocked bits off - like a bullet would - but it didn't destroy the tombstones.) (Non-magic, arguably) force-fields and such should have a similar effect. Considering that everyone even in HP tends to dodge AK (and like the X-Men dodge lasers and crap all the time), though, I don't think AK is going to do Voldy anymore good than the lasers of the Sentinels do...

The biggest advantage the Marvel-verse has is the fact that it's power base - and thus types of combatants - is extremely diverse. Everything from magic to technology to super-powers (et al), and it's all largely running under, as it were Magic/Psionics transparency. This would give Magneto a run-up out of the gate, because he's used to fighting all sorts of crap, while Voldy is only experienced in fighting wizards.

(And there is a great deal of debate as to whether the stupendously willfully insular wizarding world's more standardised attacks - all the "ranged-touch" curses and whatnot - are in fact practically superior to guns. The more esoteric stuff gives them the advantage, but at the end of the day AK is a it like the Go'auld Staff Weapons - it will kill people and is a powerful weapon (and a terror-weapon), but is not necessarily a more efficient weapon than a machine gun.)

Fan
2012-07-11, 05:56 PM
The point is that AK doesn't have the destruction feats, and the most powerful spells that have also broken the same shields ALSO don't have the destruction feats to get past the shield.

AK is not strong enough, it will not break this shield, because it has been stopped by physical barriers before.

Magneto's shields are Electromagnetic in nature, being made of a natural physical force as opposed to manifested through magical energy.

Natural, physical, things have stopped AK in the past.

It is different when it's mystical energies. Those are different kinds of energy, and ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED SO SPECIFIC BYPASSES DO NOT WORK.

It is unrelated, and non magical, so it does not get by passed.

Saying it does just because it gets past protego is giving protego more stock than it deserves.

AK DOES NOT GO THROUGH EVERYTHING.

Traab
2012-07-11, 06:08 PM
Something odd occurred to me. Harry Potter magic disrupts electrical things. I wonder what it would do to electromagnetic forces? Is it possible that it would be more effective against magneto than someone else simply due to the essence of the magic being pretty much anathema to his skill set? Now, that being said, more effective doesnt mean insta win super effective, im just saying, the potential is there.

HalfTangible
2012-07-11, 06:08 PM
The point is that AK doesn't have the destruction feats, and the most powerful spells that have also broken the same shields ALSO don't have the destruction feats to get past the shield.And now you're incorporating RPGs. Is there no end to Supersanity? :smalltongue:

HP Magic and Magneto have never come into contact. I really don't see where you're drawing these conclusions from.


AK is not strong enough, it will not break this shield, because it has been stopped by physical barriers before.

Magneto's shields are Electromagnetic in nature, being made of a natural physical force as opposed to manifested through magical energy.

Natural, physical, things have stopped AK in the past.

Except everything you've listed as stopping AK easily has been a solid, physical object. EM is not solid OR physical (well, in scientific terms, it is. But physical can also mean 'composed of matter'). For the eight billionth time.


It is different when it's mystical energies. Those are different kinds of energy.Yes. And when I made that point, you called it invalid.

Not only that, but it doesn't prove that it CAN block. At all.


Saying it does just because it gets past protego is giving protego more stock than it deserves.

A shield specifically designed to stop spells, versus a shield specifically designed to protect against as many threats as possible. Sorry but I'd put more stock in the specialized any day, any time, any bloody universe, no matter what kind of energy the two were using.

And this is the point where I stop arguing with you because I have a policy of stopping arguments when i realize I've said the same thing in three separate posts and it has been ignored all three times.

Fan
2012-07-11, 06:09 PM
Something odd occurred to me. Harry Potter magic disrupts electrical things. I wonder what it would do to electromagnetic forces? Is it possible that it would be more effective against magneto than someone else simply due to the essence of the magic being pretty much anathema to his skill set? Now, that being said, more effective doesnt mean insta win super effective, im just saying, the potential is there.

I'd hazard since Magneto operates on a planetary level, and has disrupted things on a planetary level that specifically disrupt his powers that this wouldn't even be a problem.


When I say feats. I mean showings. Feats is a shortened term for features.

The highest destructive showing we see in Harry Potter with a single spell is the single instance use of The Blasting Curse against inanimate objects.

And if we're allowed to use the HP movies as sources, Dumbledore, and incredibly powerful wizards have used protego to stop The Killing Curse.

Also, again, Magneto has faster reaction times than Voldemort's combat speed. Lightspeed reactions given he's reacted to attacks from GALACTUS, and The Phoenix's Speed of Thought / Instantaneous attacks (Stated to be faster than light in marvel for beings such as The Phoenix.).

Magneto can, again, fly around with nothing but his shields, no physical use of his powers on others, and still win this by punching Voldemort in the face, giving him a super fast wedgie, breaking his jaw, and taking his wand.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-11, 06:20 PM
A shield specifically designed to stop spells, versus a shield specifically designed to protect against as many threats as possible. Sorry but I'd put more stock in the specialized any day, any time, any bloody universe, no matter what kind of energy the two were using.

I think the issue is, roughly speaking, that it's not so much that Protego is more likely to be able to protect against AK than Magneto's sheild as it is the opposite.
As avada kedavra is an attack spell specifically designed to bypass defence spells. It doesn't bypass many things that aren't spells, whereas not only is Magneto's sheild not a spell, it's also quite likely to have blocked offensive magic on numerous occaisions, given the wide range of beings he's been in combat with.

Traab
2012-07-11, 06:26 PM
You need megatons to hurt him through his protections. If his protections get disrupted, that level of damage required starts plummeting.

Fan
2012-07-11, 06:27 PM
You need megatons to hurt him through his protections. If his protections get disrupted, that level of damage required starts plummeting.

And then he has his anti mind **** hat on at pretty much all times, in war time conditions I believe he sleeps with them since Charles attacked him in his sleep.

HalfTangible
2012-07-11, 06:33 PM
And if we're allowed to use the HP movies as sources, Dumbledore, and incredibly powerful wizards have used protego to stop The Killing Curse.

We aren't using any of the movies (else magento wouldn't have the shield you keep defending) but you keep using 'em :smalltongue:

Traab
2012-07-11, 06:37 PM
And then he has his anti mind **** hat on at pretty much all times, in war time conditions I believe he sleeps with them since Charles attacked him in his sleep.

So an imperious wouldnt work despite disrupted electromagnetic shields or whatever the hell he has to protect himself. Thats hardly the only way to win. As I said, I cant pretend to claim that spells would tear through his protections, I cant even pretend to KNOW that they would have any effect at all. It was just a theory that I thought was worth discussing. It would be better if there was more information on exactly WHY magic seems to disrupt muggle devices.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-11, 06:41 PM
It is really surprising that a spell designed to kill a living person instantly doesn't work right when it hits an inanimate object?:smallconfused: A spell like AK can't be measured in megatons of TNT or whatever, because it's effect isn't analogous to an explosion. If it hits, it kills without leaving a mark or any aftereffects...so all you're saying is Magneto wouldn't be affected by an AK hitting next to him and spraying him with shrapnel. No proof at all he could tank a direct hit, if Voldemort manages to land one.

Since everyone keeps bringing up the exploding statues, or non-exploding statues, instead of actually addressing this point, I figured I'd highlight it again.

CapnRedBeard
2012-07-11, 10:42 PM
Physical objects/shields/resistances?

Magneto's body armor stopped wolverine's blades from doing anything more than a cat scratch. Wolverine's blades as all are aware can cut through anything else pretty much like a hot knife through warm butter. So Magneto is never "naked." Furthermore in team combat settings...he frequent has Scarlet witch and or Quicksilver by his side. Furthermore Mags is a good general in the sense that he "tests" his enemy by sending out "cannon fodder" first.

Back to shields...

Magneto has used physical shields about a billion times too. Especially "weaker" versions of Magneto. He rips iron ore from dirt...and apparently there is ALWAYS enough to make a giant wall. (Maybe he can draw it from any depth...instantly thusly always having enough)

Devonix
2012-07-11, 11:06 PM
Physical objects/shields/resistances?

Magneto's body armor stopped wolverine's blades from doing anything more than a cat scratch. Wolverine's blades as all are aware can cut through anything else pretty much like a hot knife through warm butter. So Magneto is never "naked." Furthermore in team combat settings...he frequent has Scarlet witch and or Quicksilver by his side. Furthermore Mags is a good general in the sense that he "tests" his enemy by sending out "cannon fodder" first.

Back to shields...

Magneto has used physical shields about a billion times too. Especially "weaker" versions of Magneto. He rips iron ore from dirt...and apparently there is ALWAYS enough to make a giant wall. (Maybe he can draw it from any depth...instantly thusly always having enough)

Nop nope nope. Stupid movie is stupid. All mutants are sacred to Magneto he would never use them as cannon fodder.

Bitter
2012-07-12, 01:45 AM
Just wanted to make a couple points. You talk about how warlock functions around the asgard, its a different kind of magic, or do they use magic wands and bad latin to create their magic? The hp universe has different rules for how magic works than the marvel universe does. In hp universe magic and technology above the levels of electricity just dont mesh. They can make cars and bikes work with extensive charms and such, but ill bet neither of the two have any form of computer chip in them. Hp magic just fries tech, period.

Some forms of technology don't work, but some do like radios. Also no technology above the level of electricity has ever been around magic in the HP books, so I don't know where you're getting that about "above the levels of electricity" from. There has also certainly never been technology which can adapt itself against what it is facing, which has been able to directly interact with all knd of magic within its own universe or absorb energy directed against it, which is what Warlock does.


Why not? Because random wizard on the street wont know what to do to remove these centuries old wards and protections. Thats why not. It would be like me mind controlling you and demanding the nuclear launch codes for canada. It WOULD work to take down any temporary measures, like say voldemort and crew arrange the battlefield and putup specific wards to try and whittle the mutants down but got mind controlled into removing them. Which brings me to an interesting theoretical point.

Well we don't know how hard it is to take down these spells. No-one's every tried. I'll accept that it'd be pretty hard, because it doesn't really matter either way. Once they have control of one wizard, they can find out who would be most likely to know about this kind of thing and take them all down.


Anti Apparition Wards. Voldemort and crew have portkeys, apparition is a different style of teleportation. THROW ME A *^&%$&^%$ BONE HERE! *cough* I mean, imagine if they worked to stop all or most teleportation powers? That ward could be a handy way to weaken a lot of mutants, some who use teleporting as their primary skill, and others who use a variation of it as a supplemental technique to increase mobility. Every little bit helps. Though this one is a bit shaky it has potential.

Eh, I'd be inclined to say no simply because it only effects apparating. If it effected all forms of magical teleportation, like portkeys and any parts of the floo network within the charm, then I'd say sure it stops all forms of mutant teleportation too. As it is only against one specific spell, I'd say all forms of magical and mutant teleportation that aren't that one specific spell are fine.

Xondoure
2012-07-12, 02:13 AM
Yeah House Elves can Apparate within Hogwarts, so that's not a winner there.

Things I think are:

Polyjuice potion. Specifically, what do mutant genes do to it? It could end up like Hermione with the cat where you're stuck in between, and that is a great place for it to be. Access to magic and mutant powers with something as small as a DNA sample.

Felix Felicis. It's reality warping luck. That has to count for a lot.

Fidelius charm. Creates pocket dimensions only accessible to those the secret keeper chooses. Provided the secret keeper is inside the charm's boundaries I doubt even Cerebero could gain access (plot hole right there: why weren't the Potters the secret keepers? We know the Keeper can be inside the charm cause Dumbledore visited Grimauld Place)

Apparition. Look at what Nightcrawler does with Teleportation. Guy can go toe to toe with the big guns, and he doesn't have a wand.

Imperius. Cerebero is a problem. Hack one X-man, have them destroy the computer. Problem solved temporarily.

Whatever hex it is that screws with electricity. I can't quite remember if this one is stated or just implied. But if true it's basically finite incantatum for Mags himself.

Time Turners. Need I say more? We know they can cause Paradoxes even though the uses we see are all stable time loops.

Avada Kedavra. It destroys life. Ends it. No save. The ONLY defense from having your soul wripped out of your body is for someone to sacrifice themselves willingly, deliberately, and after they've made peace with their own end in order to save those they love. And I'm pretty sure if it gets close enough it counts as a direct hit because otherwise there would be scorch marks on your clothes where it burned through them (so armor isn't enough you got to block it before it makes contact.)

Fiend Fyre. Where the going get's fun. Unstoppable all consuming Flame that destroyed one of the most powerful magical dimensions we ever saw. There is probably some way of stopping it, as it hasn't burned the world to ash, but chances are it requires magic to do it.

peterpaulrubens
2012-07-12, 02:54 AM
Polyjuice potion. Specifically, what do mutant genes do to it? It could end up like Hermione with the cat where you're stuck in between, and that is a great place for it to be. Access to magic and mutant powers with something as small as a DNA sample.
There's nothing to indicate that you'd get their mutant powers, just their physical attributes. So, you may get The Blob's big behind, but you may not get Wolverine's healing. I'd have been very surprised if Hermione had gotten nine lives while cat-polyjuiced. :smalltongue:



Felix Felicis. It's reality warping luck. That has to count for a lot.
It would go a long way. But that was Longshot's power, and he was hardly a powerhouse.



Fidelius charm.... You're probably right. But Voldy seemed too egomaniacal to hide like that.



Apparition. Look at what Nightcrawler does with Teleportation. Guy can go toe to toe with the big guns, and he doesn't have a wand.I wouldn't really say Nightcrawler could hang with the big guns. He's too elusive to get curbstomped, but he can't take his foes down either.



Whatever hex it is that screws with electricity. I can't quite remember if this one is stated or just implied. But if true it's basically finite incantatum for Mags himself.That seems like a question of scale. I wouldn't expect a single use of that hex to knock out a whole power plant, which means it probably just tickles Magneto.



Avada Kedavra. It destroys life. Ends it. No save. The ONLY defense from having your soul wrapped out of your body is for someone to sacrifice themselves willingly, deliberately, and after they've made peace with their own end in order to save those they love. And I'm pretty sure if it gets close enough it counts as a direct hit because otherwise there would be scorch marks on your clothes where it burned through them (so armor isn't enough you got to block it before it makes contact.)

If I was Magneto, I would roll into battle surrounded by a 5-mile wide, extremely dense cloud of steel ball bearings and iron shavings. Thick enough to stop AK, thick enough to stop your enemies from breathing in it, thick enough to prevent them for apparating in, too numerous to Accio them all, etc..

Just fly straight at your enemies and let them get swallowed by an abrasive sandstorm of doom. Offense, defense, and vulgar display of power all rolled into one....

oblivion6
2012-07-12, 03:35 AM
xondoures got a point. i had completely forgotten about fiend fyre. good luck stopping that

Xondoure
2012-07-12, 03:35 AM
There's nothing to indicate that you'd get their mutant powers, just their physical attributes. So, you may get The Blob's big behind, but you may not get Wolverine's healing. I'd have been very surprised if Hermione had gotten nine lives while cat-polyjuiced. :smalltongue:

Focusing on this because I think it's the most fun. Why not? You get their genes mixed in with yours. Their power is supposedly some form of genetic mutation. Power stealing seems like a viable ability here if you don't mind looking a bit like them (this assuming it doesn't work flawlessly. If it does, then you need more DNA to keep it up, but it would definitely give you their powers.)

Cen
2012-07-12, 06:26 AM
The Magneto you are talking about, eh? Well I'm not really into Marvel comics but quick research I made shows he is not really that powerfull
Proof 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkc_Myyye20)
Proof 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5-JVvCrGC8&feature=related)

(Ok, I am into comics - I just wanted to share these hilarious videos I've found)

Aotrs Commander
2012-07-12, 07:05 AM
The Magneto you are talking about, eh? Well I'm not really into Marvel comics but quick research I made shows he is not really that powerfull
Proof 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkc_Myyye20)
Proof 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5-JVvCrGC8&feature=related)

(Ok, I am into comics - I just wanted to share these hilarious videos I've found)

...

...

...

Okay, yeah, that Magneto totally deserves to be AK'd into paste. Wow, that dude is dumb...!

AtomicKitKat
2012-07-12, 11:05 AM
I wouldn't really say Nightcrawler could hang with the big guns. He's too elusive to get curbstomped, but he can't take his foes down either.

2 words: Tele-frag. If you happen to come out of his port halfway through another object, you die(unless you're Kitty, or have your own port, in which case you suffer temporary damage).


If I was Magneto, I would roll into battle surrounded by a 5-mile wide, extremely dense cloud of steel ball bearings and iron shavings. Thick enough to stop AK, thick enough to stop your enemies from breathing in it, thick enough to prevent them for apparating in, too numerous to Accio them all, etc..

Just fly straight at your enemies and let them get swallowed by an abrasive sandstorm of doom. Offense, defense, and vulgar display of power all rolled into one....

So basically an iron-filings version of Doom's Molecular Shield from the Capcom vs games? Or as my brother and I used to refer to that Death Vortex spell in Ultima...The Brillo Pad of Doom.:smallbiggrin:

80s cartoon Magneto just looks weird. I think it's the colour scheme as well as the fact that he looks kind of fat.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-12, 01:01 PM
I think the issue is, roughly speaking, that it's not so much that Protego is more likely to be able to protect against AK than Magneto's sheild as it is the opposite.
As avada kedavra is an attack spell specifically designed to bypass defence spells. It doesn't bypass many things that aren't spells, whereas not only is Magneto's sheild not a spell, it's also quite likely to have blocked offensive magic on numerous occaisions, given the wide range of beings he's been in combat with.

If HP magic is the same kind of magic as xmen magic...xman universe has casters that could crush all of HP universe at once.

If HP magic and marvel magic is different...then stuff that bypasses only HP magic, like AK, will not be designed to bypass marvel magic/force fields.

Either transparency or non-transparency would result in Magento steamrolling the HP world solo, most likely.


Nop nope nope. Stupid movie is stupid. All mutants are sacred to Magneto he would never use them as cannon fodder.

Pfft, he's willing to even fight against/kill other mutants to achieve his goals(Source: basically all of xmen). He will gladly accept casualties on this path. He won't throw away lives willy-nilly, but he has absolutely no qualms about risking mutant lives for his ends, or sending mutants into dangerous situations.

Devonix
2012-07-12, 07:32 PM
If HP magic is the same kind of magic as xmen magic...xman universe has casters that could crush all of HP universe at once.

If HP magic and marvel magic is different...then stuff that bypasses only HP magic, like AK, will not be designed to bypass marvel magic/force fields.

Either transparency or non-transparency would result in Magento steamrolling the HP world solo, most likely.



Pfft, he's willing to even fight against/kill other mutants to achieve his goals(Source: basically all of xmen). He will gladly accept casualties on this path. He won't throw away lives willy-nilly, but he has absolutely no qualms about risking mutant lives for his ends, or sending mutants into dangerous situations.

Yes he'll kill other mutants to achive his goals in wartime. but he's not going to toss their lives away just to make his road easier. No mine canaries.

Bitter
2012-07-12, 08:57 PM
Various Potions

In the books, wizards tend to use potions only for specific purposes. If they didn't, the first time HP got ambushed by Death Eaters they would have drank Felix Felicis and he would have had his head blown off by a lucky shot. Do you have a reason why the wizards are acting out of character? Whatever this reason is, could it not be equally applied to the mutants so that they can go and develop or dig up their far more powerful items which have featured in decades of comic history?

Professor X, for instance, has access to the Mind Gem of the Infinity Gauntlet, basically granting him infinite telepathic power.

Also they're not exactly easy to mass produce. The luck potion, for instance, takes 6 months to brew.


Fidelius charm. Creates pocket dimensions only accessible to those the secret keeper chooses. Provided the secret keeper is inside the charm's boundaries I doubt even Cerebero could gain access (plot hole right there: why weren't the Potters the secret keepers? We know the Keeper can be inside the charm cause Dumbledore visited Grimauld Place)

While this would slow the mutants down a bit, I don't see how it puts the Wizards on the offensive or is meant to be a gamechanger in any way.


Apparition. Look at what Nightcrawler does with Teleportation. Guy can go toe to toe with the big guns, and he doesn't have a wand.

I think this is a core wizard power everyone was already factoring in. Also he can use it far differently to a wizard, unless you have examples of wizards using it for all kind of crazy mid-battle close quarter fighting.


Imperius. Cerebero is a problem. Hack one X-man, have them destroy the computer. Problem solved temporarily.

A lot of problems with this. Imperiusing an X-man to start with. Not having is discovered by a psychic. Any damage done not being fixed near instantly by mutants like Magneto or Madison Jeffries.


Whatever hex it is that screws with electricity. I can't quite remember if this one is stated or just implied. But if true it's basically finite incantatum for Mags himself.

Magneto has magnetic powers, not electric powers. If spells disrupted electro-magnetic energy then the electrons would come flying off atoms and matter would basically break down.


Time Turners. Need I say more? We know they can cause Paradoxes even though the uses we see are all stable time loops.

Say some more. All I'm seeing is that a few wizards could go back in time and get killed a day earlier than normal.


Avada Kedavra. It destroys life. Ends it. No save. The ONLY defense from having your soul wripped out of your body is for someone to sacrifice themselves willingly, deliberately, and after they've made peace with their own end in order to save those they love. And I'm pretty sure if it gets close enough it counts as a direct hit because otherwise there would be scorch marks on your clothes where it burned through them (so armor isn't enough you got to block it before it makes contact.)

First of all, I think that a lot of the X-men would qualify for the defence if the person doesn't have to die specifically to save them from Avada Kedavra.

Secondly, most X-men don't have super durability. This is barely deadlier to them then generic hydra goon with an energy blaster. Like I said earlier, I can see in the first battle some of the over confident bruisers letting themselves get hit under the assumption it just does damage and they can handle it, but after than I can't see it being a real threat.

That plus if some mutants do die, Cyclops is going to be insanely driven and will take the wizards apart.


Fiend Fyre. Where the going get's fun. Unstoppable all consuming Flame that destroyed one of the most powerful magical dimensions we ever saw. There is probably some way of stopping it, as it hasn't burned the world to ash, but chances are it requires magic to do it.

Only experienced wizards (Voldemort and his top guys, I would assume) can cast this spell and control it. If they used it most wizards will likely be in as much or more danger than mutants, especially if telekinetics pick up the ground it is burning on and start throwing massive chunks of it directly into the ranks of the wizards. God help them if a pyrokinetic like Legion, Magma or Match is present. Or a terrakinetic like Avalanche who can send the burning ground in it's entirety right back at the wizards. Or Juggerlossix, in which case you now have a raging demi-god who is also covered in super magic fire charging at you.

Plus factor in the fact they'll be constantly telepathically attacked and even the most experienced wizards might not be able to concentrate enough on controlling this spell while simultaneously fending off a mental assault.

I'd also like to mention that the mutants have a massive advantage in tactics, what with several x-men related people being literal tactical geniuses.

Not to mention that I can't think of ways for Wizards to be able to counter even relatively weak powers like Colossus's optic blast.

HalfTangible
2012-07-12, 09:51 PM
Only experienced wizards (Voldemort and his top guys, I would assume) can cast this spell and control it. If they used it most wizards will likely be in as much or more danger than mutants, especially if telekinetics pick up the ground it is burning on and start throwing massive chunks of it directly into the ranks of the wizards. God help them if a pyrokinetic like Legion, Magma or Match is present. Or a terrakinetic like Avalanche who can send the burning ground in it's entirety right back at the wizards. Or Juggerlossix, in which case you now have a raging demi-god who is also covered in super magic fire charging at you.

Plus factor in the fact they'll be constantly telepathically attacked and even the most experienced wizards might not be able to concentrate enough on controlling this spell while simultaneously fending off a mental assault.

I'd also like to mention that the mutants have a massive advantage in tactics, what with several x-men related people being literal tactical geniuses.

Not to mention that I can't think of ways for Wizards to be able to counter even relatively weak powers like Colossus's optic blast.

Remember when this thread was about Voldemort vs Magneto and NOT magic world vs mutant world?

Me neither :smalltongue:

Bitter
2012-07-12, 10:12 PM
Remember when this thread was about Voldemort vs Magneto and NOT magic world vs mutant world?

Me neither :smalltongue:

Well seeing as the opening post says:


Okay. Magneto managed to Band together all the mutants under his banner, and they all are following him.

Voldemort managed to defeat Harry and is poised to taken over the wizarding world...

Who would win now that they have turned their attentions to the non-mutant, muggles of the world.

Only one faction can stand to rule the world in their self image.

and is clearly about mutants vs wizards, I certainly don't remember when we were talking about just Magneto vs Voldemort

HalfTangible
2012-07-12, 10:14 PM
Well seeing as the opening post says:



and is clearly about mutants vs wizards, I certainly don't remember when we were talking about just Magneto vs VoldemortI did say that I didn't remember, didn't I? :smallwink:

I did a post about a match up between the two and (semi)jokingly ended it with friendship. There was then a page or so of debate on whether Magneto's personal shield could block AK. Which i REALLY do not want to get back into.

So yeah. Then :tongue:

Xondoure
2012-07-13, 02:23 AM
RE: OOC actions. The wizards are going to be fighting a force on a whole different level. And they intend to win. What do you do when you plan on winning and get to choose when the enemy is aware of you? Maximize every possible asset you have. This means the wizarding world stays underground (and by underground, we mean underground that doesn't exist unless magic lets you see it.) It means they experiment with Mutant genes, and the possible effects of a polyjuice potion with mutant DNA used on a wizard. It means they use the Imperius curse to get a foothold where they can. (And last time I checked, such infiltration worked all the time because most telepaths respect personal privacy. Charles certainly does.) It means that when going toe to toe with beings that can destroy the world they pack a little extra luck. It means they make use of time travel to be in two places at once (I'm assuming Time Turners only go back so far because otherwise someone would have tried taking Riddle away / killing him as a baby.) Potentially time turners could mean that there is more than one Voldemort on the same battlefield. A nigh infinite amount in fact, but the resulting paradox is tough to untangle.

I'm not disputing all mutants versus all wizards, and the mutants probably come on top. I'm just trying to picture all of the damage wizards could potentially do were they to strike first.

Bitter
2012-07-13, 04:40 AM
What do you do when you plan on winning and get to choose when the enemy is aware of you? Maximize every possible asset you have.

If you believe this, then potion buffing simply isn't an asset they have except when rarely needed for a specific purpose. They wanted to win the second wizarding war and got to choose when the wizarding world at large beyond just a few people at Hogwarts knew about them and they still didn't have masses of potions like Felix Felicis which allowed a lucky shot to instantly blow Harry's head off.

Also why wouldn't the mutants be aware of wizards? We have to start on the premise that the two sides know of each other and want to fight each other. Now maybe we start with the assumption that neither side knows where the other side are or what their capabilities are, but between the magical mutants, psychic mutants, mutants like Apocalypse who are ancient and would have lived through period when wizards didn't hide what they are if we assume a shared universe from the beginning, precognitive mutants, hyper intelligent mutants, mutants able to create incredible technology that can do anything; even if you assumed that every single dark wizard is constantly protected by magic (A faulty assumption anyway) then the mutants will still find information on wizards a lot quicker than wizards will find information on mutants. Mutants can find information on wizards easy enough, largely because as their abilities allow them to conduct faultless long-range investigation at no risk to themselves.

Wizards might be able to get some easy information if we assume that Voldemort controls the entire wizarding world of HP including muggle-bloods (a weird assumption, but possible if we have all mutants on one side), in which case the muggle-blooded kids kids would know enough about muggle technology to look on the Marvel Universe's equivalent of wikipedia for basic information on mutants.

Beyond that, there is no magical history of mutants. All research will pretty much have to be field research. Getting close and dirty with mutants and facing the risk of discovery.


This means the wizarding world stays underground (and by underground, we mean underground that doesn't exist unless magic lets you see it.)

Or unless you have a power which would cancel, block or override the effects of the magic.

Also if you want to add wards and protections to every wizards house and place they would likely visit, how long does that add to their workload before they even start working against the mutants.


It means they experiment with Mutant genes, and the possible effects of a polyjuice potion with mutant DNA used on a wizard.

I wouldn't mention DNA as that goes into the area of science. It's more; "Do they find a part of a magical animal which lets them copy mutant powers". It isn't something where enough brainpower can get you the desired outcome with enough research. It's magic where everything is finicky and it just does what it does for some inscrutable reason.


It means they use the Imperius curse to get a foothold where they can. (And last time I checked, such infiltration worked all the time because most telepaths respect personal privacy. Charles certainly does.)

Firstly, psychics have often shown they don't need to actively read someone's thoughts to know something is wrong.

Secondly, Imperius can be broken out of with willpower and most mutants - pretty much all of the X-men related heroes but not all of the villains, have insane levels of willpower.

Thirdly, you're not taking into account the full range mutants. If the whole mutant world is united, you have mutants like Gamesmaster who is an omnipath and hears the thoughts of every person on earth at all times without even trying or the Shadow King who is a purely psychic mutant with no physical body who can effect millions of minds at a time and has little to no qualms.


It means that when going toe to toe with beings that can destroy the world they pack a little extra luck.

Which means at least six months of hiding and checking in on mutants without being noticed. I wouldn't rate their odds.


It means they make use of time travel to be in two places at once (I'm assuming Time Turners only go back so far because otherwise someone would have tried taking Riddle away / killing him as a baby.) Potentially time turners could mean that there is more than one Voldemort on the same battlefield. A nigh infinite amount in fact, but the resulting paradox is tough to untangle.

I was under the impression that meeting yourself openly would cause a paradox which would possible be really really bad for you - possibly fatally so.


I'm not disputing all mutants versus all wizards, and the mutants probably come on top. I'm just trying to picture all of the damage wizards could potentially do were they to strike first.

As I've said, let me strike first and I have a decent shot of taking out a big mutant like Magneto with a baseball bat to the back of the head while he's going about his normal business. Same with Voldemort.

The base assumption of these kind of fights is that both sides are at least aware of each other and have some really pressing reason to want the other side defeated. You could perhaps try to make an argument for how they both start off without any/much knowledge of the other and wizards could get information on mutants easier than mutants can get information on wizards (It would be wrong, but you could), but I think assuming one side doesn't know or care about the other one until they're attack goes against the spirit of vs matches.

Traab
2012-07-13, 08:17 AM
Firstly, psychics have often shown they don't need to actively read someone's thoughts to know something is wrong.

This is true, it has worked both ways, but YOU cant deny that there have been many story arcs that revolved around an xman or someone else, being mind controlled and the havoc they caused before charles or whoever, figured it out. Also, if they can capture anyone who is in the know about the mutant world, they can force feed them veritaserum until it pours out their ears and pump them for information like, "List all the mutants whose existence you know of." And, "Starting with (X), list their powers, personalities, and weaknesses." Knowledge is power after all, and learning tidbits like, "Storm is claustrophobic" (dunno if thats still a thing for her or not, that isnt the point) or a specific thing the various powers dont work on, gives the wizards the chance to plan.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-13, 08:29 AM
This is true, it has worked both ways, but YOU cant deny that there have been many story arcs that revolved around an xman or someone else, being mind controlled and the havoc they caused before charles or whoever, figured it out. Also, if they can capture anyone who is in the know about the mutant world, they can force feed them veritaserum until it pours out their ears and pump them for information like, "List all the mutants whose existence you know of." And, "Starting with (X), list their powers, personalities, and weaknesses." Knowledge is power after all, and learning tidbits like, "Storm is claustrophobic" (dunno if thats still a thing for her or not, that isnt the point) or a specific thing the various powers dont work on, gives the wizards the chance to plan.

This is true. There are also frequent cases where x-men and other mutants have been replaced and it wasn't noticed, though in those cases usually involved incredible levels of excellence in the performance, such as the Skrull wolverine who was so deep in cover he gave his life not realising he wasn't wolverine. Wizard's can barely pass for normal people for the most part, let alone members of a persecuted and slightly paranoid sub-culture.

The Veritasium would probably work, too, the problem is how much that would actually help or not. For example, the Storm Claustrophobia thing. Sure, that sounds like a great thing to exploit in order to take her our of a fight, hit her with some kind of illusion or something and she's dealt with.

But the likely fallout is her going completely crazy and the weather for miles around becoming civilisation-endingly-bad if you're not lucky, and that's going to hit both sides at best. Or one of the psychics just calms her down and nothing happens.

There's also the scope and variety to consider. The Veritasium thing requires capturing a mutant, which means you need a mutant who isn't that much of a threat (because if you could capture an X-Man or Magneto, you don't need the Veritasium because clearly you are on-top of the situation anyway). Such a mutant is likely not to have any particularly useful secrets anyway.

Wardog
2012-07-13, 10:33 AM
No. Magneto roflstomps the wizarding world.

All of it. Without using his powers offensively aside from speed, and self amping.

Why? This right here should suffice. (http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t417866.html)

Magneto is hyper sonic, and can amp his own strength into the 100+ ton range.

He flies around, PUNCHING the Harry Potter Wizards. We can also remove the use of his legs for this and he still wins.

Oh... my...

I'm mainly familiar with Magneto from the old X-Men cartoons. (Ditto for other Marvel characters).

I had no idea he was that God-like.


Within the Marvel Universe, who else could go up against Magneto in an all-out fight and win (or at least not lose)?

And who from other 'verses could beat him? By the sounds of it, he could probably take out the God Emperor of Mankind, Naga Sadow, and Cthulhu - simultaneously.

Bitter
2012-07-13, 10:34 AM
This is true, it has worked both ways, but YOU cant deny that there have been many story arcs that revolved around an xman or someone else, being mind controlled and the havoc they caused before charles or whoever, figured it out.

I imagine there have been some in X-men's massive history but I can't think of any off hand with one exception, but perhaps they're just minor scenes within a larger story that wouldn't be especially memorable. Often times, like Wolverine Enemy of the State there isn't meant to be any subterfuge. The only big one I can think of is Secret Invasion.


Also, if they can capture anyone who is in the know about the mutant world, they can force feed them veritaserum until it pours out their ears and pump them for information like, "List all the mutants whose existence you know of."

I might be getting you confused with another guy, but I think you are the dude who comes up with these statements like "If the wizards can find a way to stop Colosseinixnaut and if they can find a way to get his helmet off then it will be really easy to take him down with a mind control charm," but never explaining how these 'ifs' happen.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-13, 10:52 AM
I suspect that interrogating a random mutant would be mostly a waste of time.

There are a *lot* of mutants in the xmen 'verse, and it's quite common for entire groups of them to be unknown about to others. The ones everyone knows...everyone knows about. Can see 'em on the news. Not much to gain there.

Merely being a mutant doesn't mean you've got much in the way of awesome knowledge.

Traab
2012-07-13, 10:53 AM
I imagine there have been some in X-men's massive history but I can't think of any off hand with one exception, but perhaps they're just minor scenes within a larger story that wouldn't be especially memorable. Often times, like Wolverine Enemy of the State there isn't meant to be any subterfuge. The only big one I can think of is Secret Invasion.



I might be getting you confused with another guy, but I think you are the dude who comes up with these statements like "If the wizards can find a way to stop Colosseinixnaut and if they can find a way to get his helmet off then it will be really easy to take him down with a mind control charm," but never explaining how these 'ifs' happen.

No, im the guy who showed a few ways they could tear off his helmet, or even remove him from the field. The basic gist is, the wizards capture a mutant, ANY mutant just about. They dont need the life history of every mutant on earth, they just need a current events listing of who is who and what can they do. I dont think there is anyone on the B list of mutants that isnt aware of what the all stars are capable of. So if they can grab, I dunno, some relative unknown like danielle moonstar. In other words, someone who would know about the xmen, and presumably their rogues gallery, and be able to fork over some high end intel.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-13, 10:57 AM
No, im the guy who showed a few ways they could tear off his helmet, or even remove him from the field. The basic gist is, the wizards capture a mutant, ANY mutant just about. They dont need the life history of every mutant on earth, they just need a current events listing of who is who and what can they do. I dont think there is anyone on the B list of mutants that isnt aware of what the all stars are capable of. So if they can grab, I dunno, some relative unknown like danielle moonstar. In other words, someone who would know about the xmen, and presumably their rogues gallery, and be able to fork over some high end intel.

Let's be honest, plenty of the B-listers could still tear through a pile of wizards.

lt_murgen
2012-07-13, 11:12 AM
No, They dont need the life history of every mutant on earth, they just need a current events listing of who is who and what can they do.

That goes both ways, though. Yes, wizards can be trained to resist mental intrusion, but the mutant world has MANY psychics to work with. Resisting an attack from one person is tought, but how about a half-dozen at once?

Even so, your intelligence gathering falls short for 2 reasons:
1- The sheer scale and bredth of the powers available to mutants. Scarlet Witch- re-wrote the relaity of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE [see House of M series]. Proteus was a mutant so powerful he could warp relality with a thought and possess other beings at will, or consume their very life energy. You could argue 1 or 2 or 10 significant threats, but the sheer variety of powers and widley varying potencies that wizards would have to deal with would be overwhelming.

2-At one point, there were millions of humans with mutant powers [again, as quoted through House of M, and following comics]. Millions of varying powers, some minor, some major.

Mystic Muse
2012-07-13, 12:02 PM
Veritaserum can be resisted. It's specifically mentioned in the books that that's why it wasn't used during Sirius Black's trial, because there wouldn't be any proof that it actually worked. I think Umbridge also decided to forgo its use in the fifth book in favor of nearly torturing Harry with the Cruciatus curse to get information from him because it's just that unreliable.

If the mutants can resist the Imperius curse (Which a fair amount can) those same mutants would be able to resist Veritaserum.

AtomicKitKat
2012-07-13, 12:12 PM
Not to mention that I can't think of ways for Wizards to be able to counter even relatively weak powers like Colossus's optic blast.

Colossus has Optic Blast? Or did you mean Cyclops? His Optic Blast borders on the ridiculous. Variously defined as concussive or thermal lasers. I think it's currently defined as his eyes being a portal to a plane of energy which comes out concussively(essentially an energy punch from his eyes). And apparently, in an older thread(like 10 years old? Maybe it was on a different forum), M.Bison vs Cyclops, someone suggested that Cyclops could literally fill a room with optic blasts, somehow bending them even after they've already left his eyes.

/thread rail-skippage.

The only ones who can survive a full-on match up against Omega mutants are other Omegas. Omega Red is not an Omega, ironically enough.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-13, 12:47 PM
Veritaserum can be resisted. It's specifically mentioned in the books that that's why it wasn't used during Sirius Black's trial, because there wouldn't be any proof that it actually worked. I think Umbridge also decided to forgo its use in the fifth book in favor of nearly torturing Harry with the Cruciatus curse to get information from him because it's just that unreliable.

If the mutants can resist the Imperius curse (Which a fair amount can) those same mutants would be able to resist Veritaserum.

That's what she said, I think the implication was that she was just a sadist and needed a good-sounding excuse. The point about it being resistible remains true.

Lamech
2012-07-13, 01:02 PM
Veritaserum can be resisted. It's specifically mentioned in the books that that's why it wasn't used during Sirius Black's trial, because there wouldn't be any proof that it actually worked.
I thought it was word of god, not in the books. /nitpicking

Xondoure
2012-07-13, 01:27 PM
The wizards are undetected because in a universe that has both of them in it, wizards going unnoticed with all the other crazy **** that happens in 616 makes plenty of sense, and is the only way for wizarding society to be the same as it is within the world. So basically, they haven't been caught before now, so they get to choose when the attack starts.

chulance
2012-07-13, 01:35 PM
Magneto would win, his shields are so powerful even Thor, and Hulk have had trouble breaking them, so I doubt avada kedavara would do jack.

Magneto can just manipulate his organic iron to control him make him kill himself or just rip it out of his body.

Bitter
2012-07-13, 04:20 PM
The wizards are undetected because in a universe that has both of them in it, wizards going unnoticed with all the other crazy **** that happens in 616 makes plenty of sense,

So in a world where

- Several mutants are also magicians.
- The X-men are pals with the former Sorceror Supreme who is so powerful he could take on hundreds of Voldemorts simultaneously and one mutant is dating a cosmic entity.
- There are mutants who are able to known about stuff before it happens whether by precognition or time-travel
- Discovering and defeating a secret society unknown to the world at large is par for the course for the X-men and would allow the wizarding world to continue to exist aessentially as is without any problems, sticking to the spirit of the topic
- There are mutants who are by default automatically aware of everything going on in the world, it is impossible for any mutants to be aware of wizards?
- There are mutants who existed before the 17thish century, at which point HP wizards didn't conceal their existence.

It is inconceivable that the X-men could be aware of the existence of mutants? Or that we could have had a scenario where they are both generally aware of the existence of each other but don't care until *MACUFFIN* means they have to defeat one another?

This is simply ridiculous.


and is the only way for wizarding society to be the same as it is within the world

Contradictory. The entire point of your arguement is to make it so that the wizarding world is militarised, armed to the teeth with years of preparation and to not be the same as it is within the HP world.

For the sake of argument I'll say that if:

- Despite all reason a united mutantkind was completely oblivious to all the HP wizards that existed.
- And the wizards decided to act contrary to how they were shown in the books and min-maxed their combat capabilities.
- And they had years of preperation to do so.
- And they flawlessly completed all their scouting and research and kidnapping without alerting the mutants.

Then in their mass surprise attack the wizards would do a lot more damage and take down a large number of mutants before being utterly destroyed.

Happy?

HalfTangible
2012-07-13, 05:03 PM
Few quick points:

-Neither mutantkind nor wizard kind has been entirely united in the entire history of their existence
-The philosophy of Voldemort will allow no mercy, chance or quarter for the muggle-born mutants, meaning he would be unable to replenish his forces through defection but also would have few if any spies
-Magneto's philosophy would allow him to accept any of the wizards (that he would probably see as mutants) that wanted to join him, allowing him to replenish his forces but also allowing for Imperio double agents. Or regular double agents.
-Neither mutants nor pureblood wizards are easy to come by, but it can be inferred that the former is generally easier than the latter
-If nothing else, assuming even Neville Longbottom could kill mutants like zerglings, mutants could overwhelm wizards with sheer numbers

grolim
2012-07-13, 05:45 PM
No, im the guy who showed a few ways they could tear off his helmet, or even remove him from the field. The basic gist is, the wizards capture a mutant, ANY mutant just about. They dont need the life history of every mutant on earth, they just need a current events listing of who is who and what can they do. I dont think there is anyone on the B list of mutants that isnt aware of what the all stars are capable of. So if they can grab, I dunno, some relative unknown like danielle moonstar. In other words, someone who would know about the xmen, and presumably their rogues gallery, and be able to fork over some high end intel.

The relative unknown that, last I heard *years ago*, was a valkyrie? One of Odin's chosen? One who when hit by a GOD, her sisters felt it and came to her aid? That relative unknown? Yeah capturing her would bring down a world of hurt, on her captors. Not to mention her power is to manifest your greatest fear and inflict it on you. And then again the valkyrie power of choosing you as your time to die. Unless they have changed her alot, and they well could have she is not one to mess with.