fixing gate

[bobthe6th]

what level would gate be if you tossed the summoning portion of the spell. just made it make a portal that may or may not last a fair length of time? I don't feel 9th is appropriate, as you can be followed, and it is very viable unlike teleportation circle.

thoughts my fellow brewers? the portal is pretty big in a lot of stories, and the fact you leave a hole means you can be followed with ease.

[ArkenBrony]

wouldn't that just be greater plane shift?

[bobthe6th]

eh, I guess, but it could also be really mass teliport...
the fluff is just to cool to lose to the abuse that normal gate has...

[Techwarrior]

Gate has one real 'problem' and the summon isn't it. Its the way the summon is based off of hit die a opposed to cr. Change gate to work off of cr. The big offender, a solar, had too much cr to count if you keep the count at 22. All other summon spells are based off of cr, not hit die.

Now, I'm not going to argue about how much dm failure is involved in allowing that, but this does make the spell much less problematic.

[ArkenBrony]

all the planar binding/ally spells are based on HD, its the xp cost, in my opinion, the cost of summoning a creature with it should increase

[Techwarrior]

Those are calling, not summoning. I also believe they should be off of cr, butI might be crazy.

[Yitzi]

Those are calling, not summoning.

So is Gate. So they actually are a very good comparison model, and my fix is actually simply to make Gate (when used as a calling spell) into the fourth tier of whichever is appropriate for the class in question.

[Techwarrior]

Yes, but the summon spells are all based off of cr. I'm saying the calling spells should be based off of that too. I don't like the idea of creatures so powerful that my DM wouldn't throw them at me, but could theoretically be bound because they're so powerful that they can be bound. Example: solar

[ArkenBrony]

using a 9th level spell and 1000 XP to win 1 encounter seems fair, maybe limiting the HD somewhat, because outsiders are one of the few creature types that has a CR within 1 or 2 of their HD. solars are 22 HD, and 23 cr

[Techwarrior]

It seems fair until you realize that wish does the same thing and costs 5000 xp. Gating someone in to use their wish doesn't sit well with me.

[ArkenBrony]

oh, i hadn't even thought of that... wow. maybe they could add the GP cost like the planar ally spells, and if i know anything about pathfinder, its a conversion of 5 gp to 1 xp, so if it cost enough, it might be fair

[Yitzi]

Yes, but the summon spells are all based off of cr.

Actually, they're based off explicit lists, which vary less in CR than they do in HD.


I'm saying the calling spells should be based off of that too. I don't like the idea of creatures so powerful that my DM wouldn't throw them at me, but could theoretically be bound because they're so powerful that they can be bound. Example: solar

Why is that so much worse than calling a Planetar (CR 16) or even a Marilith (CR 17) with Greater Planar Ally or Greater Planar Binding when you're only level 15? Because even based off CR (which has its own problems in that CR is essentially a metagame concept and so doesn't really belong in the spell mechanics), such would be possible.

[Techwarrior]

The difference between 15 and 17, (summoner and marilith) that you mention is hugely different from gate's 17 and 23. I'm not saying either one is perfect. But if I were trying to bind some creature within my magical circle, I think that its inherent magical ability (read SLA's, Cleric casting, etc.) would make it more difficult to cast. Another problem I have with those spells is the part where the spellcaster is supposed to bargain for the creatures services. This is supposed to give the DM the ability to deny the ability to do this, and it gets ignored all too often. Another thing I have a problem with is that those SLA's that are usable once per day (or year, on occasion) are always considered usable. This is ridiculous, what if that Solar wanted to Wish for a gift for his Solar wife or something, or maybe that Solar had his own problems that he had to fix with a Wish today? It's unrealistic. 3.5 is a fun game, but it has some serious problems, summoning like this is one of them. Thankfully it can be fixed by the DM saying, "No he doesn't agree to those terms."

[erikun]

Gate has one real 'problem' and the summon isn't it. Its the way the summon is based off of hit die a opposed to cr. Change gate to work off of cr. The big offender, a solar, had too much cr to count if you keep the count at 22. All other summon spells are based off of cr, not hit die.
Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) are CR 8 and can grant you 3 wishes, and so the abuse is hardly restricted.

The big problem is really that called creatures can use any abilities freely, why there are restrictions on summoned creatures. Summoned creatures cannot use SLAs that would cost XP as a spell, and thus Summon Monster IX for an Efreeti is not as big a deal as Gate for an Efreeti, or anything else.

The most obvious solution is to require the spellcaster to spend XP on any such SLAs with Gate, even though they wouldn't cost the called creature any. Trying to use an Efreeti this way would cost 16,000 XP for the three wishes; perhaps a better deal than needing to cast Wish three times, but still quite a blow to the abusive parts.

You might also want to prohibit chain-gating, perhaps with a portable hole/bag of holding-like reaction when a character tries.

[Yitzi]

It seems fair until you realize that wish does the same thing and costs 5000 xp. Gating someone in to use their wish doesn't sit well with me.

And it shouldn't. But that is a separate exploit, which is best solved independently.


The difference between 15 and 17, (summoner and marilith) that you mention is hugely different from gate's 17 and 23.

Why is one difference so much more hugely different than the other?


I'm not saying either one is perfect. But if I were trying to bind some creature within my magical circle, I think that its inherent magical ability (read SLA's, Cleric casting, etc.) would make it more difficult to cast.

It does make it more difficult in the Binding case. That inherent magical ability usually comes with a higher Will save and CHA check, both of which make it harder to effectively cast the Planar Binding spells. So if you want to fix Gate, maybe just carry over those rules...


Another problem I have with those spells is the part where the spellcaster is supposed to bargain for the creatures services. This is supposed to give the DM the ability to deny the ability to do this, and it gets ignored all too often.

"Have good DMs" is the one fix that always needs to be applied. To make the game not need good DMs, you'd have to change it to the point of no longer being D&D.

Of course, you shouldn't rely on that, as the Planar Ally line doesn't require bargaining...


Another thing I have a problem with is that those SLA's that are usable once per day (or year, on occasion) are always considered usable.

Another case of poor DMing; poor DMing is not a flaw in the spell.

[Gamer Girl]

My Gate fixes are simple enough:

By naming a particular being or type of being as you cast the spell, you may cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature, who must then make a Will save or the gate will pull the subject through to the caster.


You may only call up to twice your level in HD


Any creature pulled through the gate is not automatically controlled by the caster. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time. To control a creature the caster must use additional spells, magic or skills to get the desired result.


So first off, anything you try to gate in gets a save. Second you have a HD limit. And third the gate spell does not control the creature.

Now this puts a stop to all effortless gate abuse. You simply can't gate something in and then abuse away. The save might simply negate the spell, so a caster needs to avoid strong willed creatures or buff up the DC. Then you get no control over whatever you gate in, and must have some other way to control it.

[Yitzi]

Of course, a good cleric who knows a Solar can still gate him in to help...but then it's up to the Solar what to do and so it's simply a way of bringing an ally you already have.

[Network]

As always, unique entities can always be called if they wish to. I laugh at the guy who call a superior god any time he's in danger.

''Hey, my friend is X, the most powerful god known to mortals.''

Bonus points if the player adds ''Screw XP, I won the fight''.