PDA

View Full Version : The Planeswalker - Fixing all Tiers (3.5 / PF, PEACH)



Chronologist
2012-07-11, 08:52 PM
Planeswalkers are those mortals born with the Spark - inherent power that grants them the ability to travel between the planes of reality and manipulate reality itself, to an extent. The abilities and power of each planeswalker are unique.

Allowing the Planeswalker option allows for more difficult challenges. Increase the CR of all enemies by 1 for every 4 character levels the group possesses, rounded up.

To determine your Effective Planeswalker Level, or EPL, do the following:
Each level of a Tier 1 class (Cleric, Wizard) grants you 1/4 of a level
Each level of a Tier 2 class (Sorcerer, Favored Soul) Grants you 1/2 of a level
Each level of a Tier 3 class (Witch, Magus) grants you 3/4 of a level
Each level of a Tier 4 class (Ranger, Gunsligner) grants you 1 level
Each level of a Tier 5 class (Monk, Rogue) grants you 1 and 1/4 of a level
Each level of a Tier 6 class (Commoner, Truenamer) grants you 1 and 1/2 of a level

Always round up when determining Effective Planeswalker Level.

Any prestige class is considered the same Tier as whatever class was used to gain the prerequisites, unless a noteworthy exception or argument can be made.

{table=head]EPL|Benefits|Warp Reality
1|Planeswalk, Stamina, Purviews (1), Attributes (+1/+0/+0)|1
2|Divine Traits (1)|1
3|Attributes (+1/+0/+0)|1
4|Scion Talent|2
5|Purviews (2), Attributes (+1/+1/+0)|2
6|Divine Traits (2)|2
7|Attributes (+2/+1/+0)|3
8|Scion Talent|3
9|Attributes (+2/+2/+0)|3
10|Purviews (3), Divine Traits (3)|4
11|Attributes (+2/+2/+1)|4
12|Scion Talent|4
13|Attributes (+3/+2/+1)|5
14|Divine Traits (4)|5
15|Purviews (4), Attributes (+3/+3/+1)|5
16|Scion Talent|6
17|Attributes (+4/+3/+1)|6
18|Divine Traits (5)|6
19|Attributes (+4/+3/+2)|7
20|Purviews (5), Scion Talent|7
21|Attributes (+5/+3/+2)|7
22|Divine Traits (6)|8
23|Attributes (+5/+4/+2)|8
24|Scion Talent|8
25|Purviews (6), Attributes (+6/+4/+2)|9
26|Divine Traits (7)|9
27|Attributes (+6/+4/+3)|9
28|Scion Talent|10
29|Attributes (+7/+5/+3)|10
30|Purviews (6), Divine Traits (8)|10[/table]

Planeswalk: The primary ability of a Planeswalker is the ability to travel between different worlds almost at will. Attempting to planeswalk takes 1 minute of concentration, "rushing" it as a full-round action imposes a -10 penalty to Planeswalk checks until the Planeswalker next uses this ability. Once performed, the Planeswalker may move between any campaign setting - be it Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or more. If they know where they are going, they roll a Planeswalker check, adding only their EPL, and roll to see how far from their intended destination they arrive, Multiply the value by 2 if they have never been to this location before, or if they planeswalk for the first time.

{table=head]Check result|Distance
4 or less|Wrong plane
5|5d100 miles
10|3d100 miles
15|1d100 miles
20|1d10 miles
25|5d100 feet
30|3d100 feet
31 or more|1d100 feet[/table]

After Planeswalking, the Planeswalker must make a DC 20 Planeswalker check every 4 hours in order to regain the ability to Planeswalk. Each time he fails, he gains a +1 bonus to his next check.

Stamina: The ability to manipulate reality is draining. A Planeswalker gains a pool of Stamina points equal to 1/2 his EPL times his Warp Reality value, plus his highest attribute modifier, ignoring enhancement bonuses and temporary modifiers. Stamina recovers in two ways - first, each day a Planeswalker recovers a number of points of Stamina equal to their EPL or their highest attribute modifier, whichever is higher. Second, when a Planeswalker dies, another Planeswalker may absorb their Spark and completely refill their Stamina. When reduced to 1/2 Stamina or less, a Planeswalker is Fatigued. When reduced to 1/4 their Stamina or less, a Planeswalker is Exhausted.

Purview: Each Planeswalker has dominion over certain aspects of reality. Each of these aspects is called a Purview, and is defined by a single word. Examples of purviews might include Fire, Earth, Wards, Regeneration, Wealth, Wrath, Charity, Trees, etc. Extremely narrow terms like Glass or Swords are valid, but broad concepts like Life, Time, and Summoning are invalid (but could respectively be replaced with Healing, Slowing Time, and Summoning Angels). A Planeswalker starts with one Purview and gains an additional Purview at each of the noted levels (5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30).

When a Planeswalker absorbs another planeswalker's Spark, they gain access to that Planeswalker's Purviews for 1 day per EPL of the deceased Plaenswalker, after which they may exchange any number of their own Purviews for those of the other Planeswalker on a one-for-one basis.

Warp Reality: Each Planeswalker has the ability to exert their will over reality. They may cast any spell from any class list whose effects coincide with one of their Purviews. Doing so drains them of a number of points of Stamina equal to the spell's level. The maximum spell level of any spell they cast with Warp Reality is their Warp Reality value on the above table. If a spell appears on more than one list, use the Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer list version's level, if any. For the purpose of caster level, substitute the Planeswalker's character level.

Warp Reality 10 denotes the ability of a Planeswalker to effectively do anything within the boundaries of reality that 1) matches the power of a Miracle or Wish spell, and 2) fits somewhere in the boundary of their Purviews.

The DC of any effect from Warp Reality is 10 + 1/2 your character level + your highest attribute modifier. However, reality is resistant to continued uses of the same ability. A planeswalker cannot have more than one active effect form the same purview at any time, and a planeswalker who uses the same specific spell takes a -2 cumulative penalty to that spell's save DC and caster level. (This is to encourage diversity and reduce spamming).

Attributes: At 1st level, a Planeswalker chooses their Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary attributes. The Primary gains an inherent bonus equal to the first value on the above table, the secondary gains the second value, the tertiary gains the third value. Once selected, these attributes cannot be changed.

Divine Traits: At 2nd level, a Planeswalker gain 1 rank of Divine Traits, as can be found here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/adept-godling
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/clever-godling
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/eldritch-godling
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/mighty-godling

They gain additional divine traits every 4 levels thereafter.

Scion Talent: At 4th level, a Planeswalker gains a Scion talent or Minor Ascendancy from the same source as above. At 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter, they gain an additional Scion talent. At 20th, 24th, and 28th level, they may choose a Major Ascendancy or Greater Scion Talent.


Addendum: I generally restrict following Purviews: teleportation, mind control, summoning of any kind, death effects of any kind, and any other "I win" buttons. But that might be just because I restrict or remove those effects from my games normally.


So, what do you think? I think it bridges the Tier gap in a way that other fixes don't, and it adds a really interesting new mechanic to the adventure. Play as a group of Planeswalkers, draw together by fate, now wandering the multiverse in search of fame, fortune... or perhaps on a quest that threatens the multiverse itself. You can have a grand scale for your adventures without having to be really high level, and hey, anything that lets you play a Commoner who is a match for the Wizard in terms of sheer power is a fix that I'd stand behind.

Thanks for reading, and don't hesitate to comment!

toapat
2012-07-11, 09:42 PM
A check Result of 1-5 should result in a wrong plane result, not 250 miles away.

other problems are things such as Purviews not really working without MTG's color system

Personal: Even pre mending, Planeswalker didnt mean Deity. Only 3 times has an actual god been portrayed in MTG, twice it completely obliterates the field, the third time it was a rather difficult to play 2 turn clock that could only be removed by Wrath of God

Zale
2012-07-11, 09:58 PM
Is that Pathfinder Witches?

I was under the impression that they were low Tier 1.

This seems interesting.

Though now Commoners are like unto little gods. Easily swatted gods, but none the less.

Chronologist
2012-07-11, 10:07 PM
Wrong Plane result will be added if the player rolls 0 or less - it has to be from a forced transit, with that -10 penalty.

This is not meant to be a carbon copy of the Magic: the Gathering concept of planeswalkers. Sure, reading the Mirrodin books as a kid helped, but it's not meant to fit the MtG color-wheel at all. It's supposed to be more like... non-traditional Domains. In fact, I might shift the benefits to selecting Domains instead. That would reduce the potential abuse.

The Divine Traits and Scion Powers are basically just used because they're a fairly broad list of beneficial abilities that can be applied well to any sort of character without simply being existing class features.

Planeswalkers are not gods, nor are they intended to be. They are mortals with an aberrant ability that lets them, as Vaarsuvius would put it, tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up. I'm paraphrasing here, but that's the gist.

Gods, after all, are campaign-specific. Planeswalkers can spend the morning shopping in Sharn, travel to Greyhawk to raid a tomb, and be back home in Rokugan for dinner and tea. They can do this at level 1, theoretically. More likely, they can do it accurately if they're a group of Tier 3-4 around level 10 or so.

What I'm really looking for is how balanced the casting is. No-one other than fighters and samurai is going to get access to 9th level spells, and their Stamina is fairly limited compared to what a Sorcerer could pull off. They're also pretty limited in scope. On the other hand, the stat-bonuses are very nice, as are the traits, and they get to have heavy armor and hit points, which the wizard doesn't have access to.

So, how do you think it'll stack up mechanically?

toapat
2012-07-11, 10:10 PM
crazy overpowered if fighters get full spell casting.

Chronologist
2012-07-11, 10:17 PM
Is that Pathfinder Witches?

I was under the impression that they were low Tier 1.

This seems interesting.

Though now Commoners are like unto little gods. Easily swatted gods, but none the less.

Sorry for the double post. I figured that Witches were Tier 3 because of how limited their spell list was. Either way, whatever Tier you assign them to will determine their strength.

Commoners are indeed much more powerful. The idea was to create a system that made the Commoner exactly as strong as the Wizard. d4 hit dice, no weapons or skill points, pathfinder makes class skills less important, and both gain "spellcasting" at roughly the same speed (the Commoner is a little bit ahead actually, level 2 they have 2nd level "spells").

In fact, under this system I might make the Warrior Tier 5, just because getting "10th" level Warp Reality with full BAB is kind of ridiculous.

So far the group I'm playtesting this on is a Cleric, Magus, Gunslinger, Ranger, Fighter, and Rogue. Tiers respectively are 1, 3, 4, 4, 5, and 5. The Rogue chose Wealth as a Purview and is being very, very greedy.

Which sucks because the adventure started with them being sucked into Ravenloft, apparently "someone" (wink wink nudge nudge) wants their Planeswalker sparks for their own and will stop at nothing to kill them. They're 9th level, I adapted (i.e. reworked the CR of everything in the world) the setting to accommodate their improved abilities, and I restricted their ability to recover Stamina to their EPL each night they sleep on hallowed ground (anywhere but the church in Barovia village gives people nightmares and they can't sleep for more than a few minutes).

Griswold
2012-07-12, 04:49 PM
I really like this idea, although as someone who thinks planes and planeswalking are the coolest things ever, I may be a bit biased. I have a number of questions and comments for you:

For the Divine and Scion traits, are the abilities based on character level or EPL? It could probably go either way.

Being able to Planeswalk as a full-round action, even with a chance of going to the wrong plane, allows characters to escape from any fight at 1st level. Is this something you want? If not, might be worthwhile to have the ability just fail for negative Planeswalking checks.

Is there any way for planeswalkers to discern where other planeswalkers are going and follow each other? If you have an epic showdown, can the planeswalking villain chase your party when you try to get away, or if your party's worst planeswalker lands himself in the wrong spot, can the party follow?

In what way is Warp Reality like spellcasting? Is there arcane spell failure, are material components and XP costs in effect? Or are they spell-like abilities? I'd assume the latter from the flavor, but the text says that you cast the spells. I'd suggest SLAs, but require costly material components/XP costs, especially with 10th level Warp Reality power.

What does it mean for a planeswalker to use the same specific spell? Is it per day? Does it apply to all nearby planeswalkers? (i.e. if I cast Alter Self, will Bob be penalized if he casts it right after me?) It could be interesting if a particular plane dislikes it when the same spell is used via Warp Reality multiple times, even if by different people.

I think that the spell levels that various classes get access to is too high. As it is, Fighters get access 9th level spells. If, for example, they go and Shapechange into a more powerful battle form related to their Purview, then they become quite ridiculous given their feats and BAB. I'd knock the maximum spell level for Tier 4 and 5 characters down to 6th or 7th level maximum. They still have access to plenty of awesome buffs and stuff.

The total stamina per day and spell costs look completely reasonable to me. As it currently stands, the rate at which maximum stamina points accrue for a Commoner means that at 20th level, a Commoner can cast a Wish-like effect 16 times in a day (although they'll be fatigued/can't do so tomorrow/yadda yadda). At first I thought this was overpowered, but a 20th level Psion can do the same thing with Reality Revision. After some quick math, I notice that the Psion acquires maximum power points at roughly the same rate (taking into account the factor of two difference in costs). Congrats! Planeswalker Commoners are re-fluffed and more creative to play Psions. If you want to completely flatten the tiers and make Commoners more on par with Wizards/Psions, you might want to boost the recovery per day to 2*EPL, and give bonus Stamina like a Psion instead of just + maximum ability modifier.

Chronologist
2012-07-12, 11:04 PM
I really like this idea, although as someone who thinks planes and planeswalking are the coolest things ever, I may be a bit biased. I have a number of questions and comments for you:

For the Divine and Scion traits, are the abilities based on character level or EPL? It could probably go either way.

Being able to Planeswalk as a full-round action, even with a chance of going to the wrong plane, allows characters to escape from any fight at 1st level. Is this something you want? If not, might be worthwhile to have the ability just fail for negative Planeswalking checks.

Is there any way for planeswalkers to discern where other planeswalkers are going and follow each other? If you have an epic showdown, can the planeswalking villain chase your party when you try to get away, or if your party's worst planeswalker lands himself in the wrong spot, can the party follow?

In what way is Warp Reality like spellcasting? Is there arcane spell failure, are material components and XP costs in effect? Or are they spell-like abilities? I'd assume the latter from the flavor, but the text says that you cast the spells. I'd suggest SLAs, but require costly material components/XP costs, especially with 10th level Warp Reality power.

What does it mean for a planeswalker to use the same specific spell? Is it per day? Does it apply to all nearby planeswalkers? (i.e. if I cast Alter Self, will Bob be penalized if he casts it right after me?) It could be interesting if a particular plane dislikes it when the same spell is used via Warp Reality multiple times, even if by different people.

I think that the spell levels that various classes get access to is too high. As it is, Fighters get access 9th level spells. If, for example, they go and Shapechange into a more powerful battle form related to their Purview, then they become quite ridiculous given their feats and BAB. I'd knock the maximum spell level for Tier 4 and 5 characters down to 6th or 7th level maximum. They still have access to plenty of awesome buffs and stuff.

The total stamina per day and spell costs look completely reasonable to me. As it currently stands, the rate at which maximum stamina points accrue for a Commoner means that at 20th level, a Commoner can cast a Wish-like effect 16 times in a day (although they'll be fatigued/can't do so tomorrow/yadda yadda). At first I thought this was overpowered, but a 20th level Psion can do the same thing with Reality Revision. After some quick math, I notice that the Psion acquires maximum power points at roughly the same rate (taking into account the factor of two difference in costs). Congrats! Planeswalker Commoners are re-fluffed and more creative to play Psions. If you want to completely flatten the tiers and make Commoners more on par with Wizards/Psions, you might want to boost the recovery per day to 2*EPL, and give bonus Stamina like a Psion instead of just + maximum ability modifier.

Thanks for the feedback. Let me try and address some of those questions.

1) Divine and Scion traits are based on character level. This makes them more useful for high-Tier characters (even though they have fewer), and stops low-tier character from breaking away from expected power by level.

2) Planeswalking is extremely risky as a full-round action. First, you take a -10 to future planeswalking checks until you planeswalk again, making them much more innacurate. Second, it vastly increases the time it takes to "recharge" your ability to planeswalk. This means that there's a pretty decent chance that the Planeswalker simply travels to an inhospitable location, say, inside a volcano, or several hundred meters underwater. It's not really an escape if it's tantamount to suicide.

3) Whenever a planeswalker travels, they leave behind a "trace" that other planeswalkers can follow, effectively gaining a bonus to their planeswalk check and travelling to the same plane as that planeswalker. A "trace" lasts for 1 round per EPL of the planeswalker. I will soon add this to the document.

4) Warp Reality effects are treated as Spell-Like abilities for all intents and purposes. They don't have XP costs, unless the spell requires one, and they don't require material components that are worth less than, say, 5 gold. Anything above that in necessary in order to use the Warp Reality ability (example - stoneflesh).

5) Pretty much. I should change that to reflect the intent. Each time a given "effect" is used, it reduces the caster level and save DC of all future uses of that effect by 1, for 1 day per level of the Warp Reality spell effect. This applies even between different Planeswalkers, so long as they are on the same plane.

6) Tier 4 character can become 20th level planeswalkers, gaining access to 7th level Warp Reality. Tier 5 can gain Warp Reality 9, but only at level 20. Tier 6 character gain a faster rate of Warp Reality, but at the same time they have effectively no class features, and their recovery and scope of power is significantly lower than that of a Wizard or Cleric.

7) Thanks for number crunching, I just figured the progression felt right. I might make the stamina increases larger, but at the same time the ability to determine that bonus, and the save DCs, with your highest attribute of any kind makes Warp Reality hard-hitting beyond normal spellcasting. Plus, the attribute bonuses further boost the DC (by up to 3), making it a more finite but stronger resource, as was the intention.

I might increase stamina recovery. On the other hand, I've removed Stamina recovery entirely from the game I'm playtesting it in (Ravenloft naturally suppresses the recovery of stamina through rest), instead giving characters a refill whenever they slay another Planeswalker (two down so far in two sessions, and they've met at least one other).

Thank you so much for your feedback, when I have a free moment and it's not midnight I will update my original post.

radmelon
2012-07-13, 01:29 AM
I'm somewhat of a fan of MtG, and I like this interpretation of the idea. It fits pretty well, while allowing the character to still have their own skills.

Baron Corm
2012-07-13, 11:20 AM
I believe this makes tier 5s better than tier 1s. They get many purviews, so their spells known should be as many as they need. If you arbitrarily restrict purviews, they should be restricted spells for the tier 1s as well, as you said you do. If I'm reading it right, they get tons of spells per day, and can cast spontaneously, and it can be from any spell list, and at rank 10 you can apparently do just about anything. So yeah, that makes them seem better.

I really, really like the idea, but I think going as far as giving spellcasting was not a good choice. I think that specific planeswalker abilities would have been easier to balance, and just as flavorful.

I'm don't think, at this stage, that it makes perfect sense. I believe Urza would be an artificer, which is tier 1, yet he was the most powerful planeswalker ever. I'm sure Liliana Vess being a necromancer on the side helps her a lot more than it hurts her. Sure, you're not copying the MtG flavor exactly, but it doesn't add up in a general sense either.

This system is just a bit jarring in the way it determines who is the more powerful planeswalker. Maybe if there were a less obvious way of doing it, that anyone could access, but it was easier for tier 5s? I'm not sure exactly how planeswalkers get more powerful in the MtG universe so I can't suggest anything right now.

radmelon
2012-07-13, 12:46 PM
WEll, Urza could have simply been a higher level than most of the others were.