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Kyberwulf
2012-07-13, 10:32 AM
Okay I have seen numerous Threads about (Fillin your Jedi/sith here) Vs. (Magical Guy x)

It all boils down to Star Wars Cannon becoming fodder, and Magical (Doesn't matter What setting, or WHO it is.) Teleporting flying Nuns lobbing Spells with Howitzer prescision.

My question is this, Why does everything that has to do with Star Wars get ripped apart.

Why do Magicguys get the benifit of being Epic Level 20th Level D&D Wizards, when their world doesn't work by the D&D Standards?

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 10:45 AM
Okay I have seen numerous Threads about (Fillin your Jedi/sith here) Vs. (Magical Guy x)

It all boils down to Star Wars Cannon becoming fodder, and Magical (Doesn't matter What setting, or WHO it is.) Teleporting flying Nuns lobbing Spells with Howitzer prescision.

My question is this, Why does everything that has to do with Star Wars get ripped apart.

Why do Magicguys get the benifit of being Epic Level 20th Level D&D Wizards, when their world doesn't work by the D&D Standards?

It only applies on worlds with that kind of power. Harry Potter, DnD and various other settings have the variety and the power to do a....great deal. Whereas Star Wars, does not, not without bringing in lower canon (C-canon), or people bringing stuff up massive outliers.

Let's take HP again, against a Jedi they stack up well, against Boba Fett, they get creamed, primarily they are weak against modern technology.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-13, 10:52 AM
...what are you talking about? The only vs. anything magical thread we've had in months is the ongoing X-men vs. Harry Potter thread, and an argument about Emperor Palpatine in 1v1 combat with Aang the Avatar. Star Wars doesn't come up very often in Vs. threads here at all...

Traab
2012-07-13, 10:57 AM
We had vader versus voldemort a little while ago.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-13, 11:04 AM
Oh, right.

Didn't that one go in Vader's favor anyways, because of confusion on how Avada Kedavra would work on someone on life support?

thubby
2012-07-13, 11:08 AM
the most powerful force users were vader, palpatine, and/or yoda. and while they were certainly super human, their power was orders of magnitude below the likes of Elminster.

Traab
2012-07-13, 11:30 AM
Oh, right.

Didn't that one go in Vader's favor anyways, because of confusion on how Avada Kedavra would work on someone on life support?

I dont recall if it got decided, but there WAS a lot of argument over force absorb and how well it would work on magic or light sabers deflecting the same, and how voldemorts transportation magic stacked up to the kind of speed a jedi/sith could bring to the table, etc etc etc. It got pretty contentious there, with me taking the viewpoint of how jango fett died as an example of what would happen to voldemort most likely, while voldy supporters took the view that he would be flying in circles around vader till he figured out what spells would work and what wouldnt. But there WAS a lot of "Magic is way more flexible than the force, and can do most of what the force does beside, therefore the force is weak and pathetic."

Fan
2012-07-13, 12:00 PM
Eeeh.

It's because by and large people refuse to except EU as canon, when it.. really is.

EU Palpatine rips apart planets, as does EU Vader, and Luke.

This is without force power artifacts, Luke is also capable of time stopping, and a bajillion other things.

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 12:14 PM
Eeeh.

It's because by and large people refuse to except EU as canon, when it.. really is.

EU Palpatine rips apart planets, as does EU Vader, and Luke.

This is without force power artifacts, Luke is also capable of time stopping, and a bajillion other things.

No, it is because a lot of EU is contradicted by higher canon, and because EU feats crush everything making the debate pointless. Unless you use something like Marvel, Scion, or Exalted in which case Perfect Defence says - Lol! no!

thubby
2012-07-13, 12:18 PM
Eeeh.

It's because by and large people refuse to except EU as canon, when it.. really is.

EU Palpatine rips apart planets, as does EU Vader, and Luke.

This is without force power artifacts, Luke is also capable of time stopping, and a bajillion other things.

EU cant be cannon without making the movies either terrible or non-cannon.

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 12:19 PM
EU cant be cannon without making the movies either terrible or non-cannon.

It follows G-canon, T-canon, C-canon (EU) etc.

Anything that contradicts is dealt with on a case-by-case basis, generally. Although a lot of the ICS is contradicted as it would make ground combat pointless and irrelevant, same too with some of the force powers. Jedi / Sith would never get killed by blasters.

Fan
2012-07-13, 12:29 PM
No, it is because a lot of EU is contradicted by higher canon, and because EU feats crush everything making the debate pointless. Unless you use something like Marvel, Scion, or Exalted in which case Perfect Defence says - Lol! no!

That's not how contradictions work as no official figures are ever given in the movies.

It's just not how canon works.

Unless it's specifically stated otherwise, it's how it worked in the movies, and George Lucas hasn't weighed in one way or the other.

Though I agree on ICS, that thing is written by a complete hack, and the numbers in it are completely ridiculous.

snoopy13a
2012-07-13, 12:32 PM
Eeeh.

It's because by and large people refuse to except EU as canon, when it.. really is.

EU Palpatine rips apart planets, as does EU Vader, and Luke.

This is without force power artifacts, Luke is also capable of time stopping, and a bajillion other things.

If Palpy and Vader could have ripped apart planets, then the Empire wouldn't have bothered to build Death Stars. This is why I hate the EU sometimes; the authors simply don't think about the ramifications of the powers and capabilities they are adding.

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 12:38 PM
That's not how contradictions work as no official figures are ever given in the movies.

It is actually, as if EU stuff means it would totally change huge aspects og eh movies then it cannot be.


It's just not how canon works.

Unless it's specifically stated otherwise, it's how it worked in the movies, and George Lucas hasn't weighed in one way or the other.

That isn't actually true dude, as stated below.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_wars_canon#What_is_Star_Wars_canon.3F


Though I agree on ICS, that thing is written by a complete hack, and the numbers in it are completely ridiculous.

True.

Jayngfet
2012-07-13, 12:44 PM
If Palpy and Vader could have ripped apart planets, then the Empire wouldn't have bothered to build Death Stars. This is why I hate the EU sometimes; the authors simply don't think about the ramifications of the powers and capabilities they are adding.

This. I mean I can believe a lot of the more out there non-movie powers(a lot of KOTOR 2, a few things Luke has done even in recent novels, and a couple of tv episodes) a lot of things get so poorly thought out that it kind of breaks the setting.

I mean Anakin was supposed to be this ultra powerful Jedi that we see slicing up hundreds of battle droids and blow up a space station. We don't need to see some new guy who is apparently even MORE powerful take out THOUSANDS of battle droids and tear apart star destroyers.

When Palpatine throws lightning in the movies it's this crazy terrifying feat nobody expects and you can't really dodge. It's impressive enough as is. Giving him the ability to outdo the friggin death star on his own is just cartoonish and destroys internal logic.

And that's why the high powered EU stuff is ignored. It cheapens the effect if every dark jedi can do the lightning trick and you need to have Palpatine blow up a planet just to make him a threat again.

Fragenstein
2012-07-13, 12:51 PM
If Palpy and Vader could have ripped apart planets, then the Empire wouldn't have bothered to build Death Stars. This is why I hate the EU sometimes; the authors simply don't think about the ramifications of the powers and capabilities they are adding.

Yes. In episode IV, Vader wasn't powerful enough to stop a blockade runner. He had his men fire upon it, capture it and then send in troopers to secure it before entering in person. It was only after the fighting that he began his interrogations.

In the EU... he could have just crushed the ship mentally and picked what he wanted out of the remains.

His precognition wasn't enough to show that two droids would escape with the plans. He had to capture Leia and try to torture the information out of her.

EU Vader would have been at the escape pods before the droids, and then pulled anything else he wanted from every mind on the ship.

His precognition also wasn't enough to warn him of the surprise attack by Han just before Luke took that last shot on the exhaust port. He was caught completely off guard.

EU Vader would have blown the rebel base and the moon it was sitting on to bits from his private yacht.

In episode V, his precognition wasn't enough to show him that the fleet would come out of hyperspace too far from Hoth, allowing the rebels a chance to mount a defense and evacuation.

EU Vader would have known that mistake was coming and would have adjusted the Navicomp.

Once again, we see him sending in troops to secure the rebel base. He only enters after the fighting stops rather than stomping on it personally. Even then, his precognition wasn't enough to show that the Falcon would fly off just as he got there. Then his TK wasn't enough to cause it to crash or otherwise prevent the launch.

His precog didn't show him luke would jump to his 'death', and then his TK wasn't enough to grab him in mid-air and take the brat captive... blah, blah, endless examples...


I love the Star Wars universe, but I was indoctrinated with the movies. The Force just seriously is not that mighty as seen in what many of us consider to be the baseline levels.

By the same token, take most of the baseline magical worlds. Power beyond measure is generally found. Maybe not in movies like Willow, The Last Unicorn or Dragonslayer... but when have we ever had a vs. thread involving those?

Kinslayer
2012-07-13, 01:01 PM
You wrote ;


The Last Unicorn

I read ;
The Last Unicron

...It took me a minute to figure out what was wrong with my head, and why that sounded like the best parody.

Xondoure
2012-07-13, 01:01 PM
Here's my problem with Star Wars and the Force. The setting is so much cooler when it's low on magic. The whole point of the Force upon its first introduction is that it is subtle, works in mysterious ways, and provided the Jedi Knights not wizards with the strength to protect the galaxy. It evened the playing field enough so that a sword was usable in space, even made them better fighters than your average trooper. It provides guidance which allows them to make impossible shots, or avoid the most dangerous pilot in the galaxy. It allows them to feel the world around them and in doing so push and pull the objects surrounding them. It even suggests that there is more to life than what we see, and that through it we might journey into greater mysteries. And at its most terrifying it became lightning with which to torture and kill.

It was not waving hands and absorbing all the power on the battlefield, or crushing starships with telekinetic prowess, or increasing the power of an entire star fleet, or destroying planets with force storms, or Sith Alchemy, or whatever else has come out of the EU. And I like it that way. I liked that this strange and subtle power could be the greatest thing in the universe when used by those who understood it. I liked that with it one man could set everything in motion so that an entire empire would fall (Obi Wan.) And I liked that Darth Vader was first and foremost a warrior without peer. Oh and I should mention, it is G canon that these are the most powerful force users of all time, some of whom are in the prime of their power. And yet the strongest showings go: Obi Wan and Yoda becoming Force Ghosts, Yoda lifting an X-Wing slowly with great concentration, Luke making a two meter shot from an X-wing, Vader force choking someone through an intercom, and Palpatine shooting lightning as the incredibly powerful Sith Lord is picked up by a one armed cyborg and lies on his back doing nothing while he's tossed over a ledge.

In settings such as Avatar where the founding premise is that when the world needed him most, the one man who could vanquish armies vanished, this is not the case. We know almost from the very beginning that bending is something that can and has vastly changed the way the entire world lives, not just the gifted few. It's something both spiritual and martial, which through discipline can move mountains, fight against volcanic eruption, cause waves the size of tsunamis, and allow an entire nation to live in the sky. the greatest feat we see is Kiyoshi severing a continent, and pushing it away from the mainland as a fully realized Avatar. That is a lot of power.

Now take Harry Potter. Seven Years of basic education allows any particularly gifted student to brew truth serums and polymorphing concoctions, use of apparition, a thousand and one ways to move an object, summoning spells, silencing spells, transfiguration of just about anything into just about anything else, vanishing spells, and a healthy amount of training in combat magic. The creatures they face range from soul sucking abominations to dragons. And more advanced spells allow you to brew liquid luck, change into an animal yourself, defend your mind against attack, and read other people's minds. This all not even touching the Dark Arts which can force a person under your control while leaving their mental capacity intact, cause such terrible pain that it breaks even the most disciplined minds with time, kill anything regardless of what powers it holds, create all consuming flames, lethal sword wounds that are nigh impossible to heal caused from any distance, purple fire that causes lethal internal wounds, and so on and so forth. In her first year, Hermione was capable of petrifying her opponent in place. What's more all of this takes much less effort than any use of force powers, which are almost always preceded by a deep intake of breath, closed eyes, and concentration. Hell nonverbal spell casting once mastered, means all of this comes with barely a thought.

In short, if they wanted the Force to be magic with all that entails they should have said so. Instead they made it different, mysterious, noble, and above all subtle.

Flickerdart
2012-07-13, 01:11 PM
In short, if they wanted the Force to be magic with all that entails they should have said so. Instead they made it different, mysterious, noble, and above all subtle.
Midichlorians. :smallfrown:

Fragenstein
2012-07-13, 01:18 PM
... The setting is so much cooler when it's low on magic...

... And I like it that way...

I could not possibly agree with you more. What's the fun of having scoundrels around if they're so overshawdowed by Jedi and Sith?


And -- Kinslayer -- we did Unicron vs. the Death Star already. The Death Star lost... by quite a lot, much to my surprise.

Wardog
2012-07-13, 01:34 PM
Here's my problem with Star Wars and the Force. The setting is so much cooler when it's low on magic. The whole point of the Force upon its first introduction is that it is subtle, works in mysterious ways, and provided the Jedi Knights not wizards with the strength to protect the galaxy.


Agreed.

I always assumed that when Vader said "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" he meant inthe same way that "the pen is mightier than the sword".

Having a planet-destroying battle-station doesn't mean much when a barely-trained farm-boy can blow it up with a well-placed torpedo, and then go on to lead (or at least inspire) a rebellion to overthrow your empire.

Evidently, the EU writers thought he meant "because with the force you can make multiple stars go nova". They presumably also think a dual between a man armed with a sword and a man armed with a pen will end with the swordsman stabbed to death with a Biro.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-13, 01:40 PM
To the main topic there's no real difference between the Force and magic, the former is merely a type of the latter. And all of it is all so unimaginatively power that generic comparasions are not different enough to mean much.

However speaking broadly on how magic users are supposed to be squishy wizards and Jedi are magic knights... Jedi should broadly beat magic users because wizards et al are generally supposed to be operating at human levels and speeds. A wizard standing a meter away from you is no real threat if you are any kind of physical fighter because you punch said wizard in the gut and he can't concentrate on spells. Even D&D is supposed to work that way, and in stories wizards don't benefit from being more efficient in the action rules.

Jedi however are consistently superhuman in physical performance and use it as their primary means of combat. It doesn't broadly matter how fast in particular, but certainly up there with the best IRL martial artists simply as a baseline. So for a nominal "fair fight" then unless starting off at pretty long range a Jedi should beat a wizard. For much the same reason a fighter should beat a wizard unless the wizard has meat shields already in place.

Where this changes is when you have wizards that are also superhuman fighters themselves (think shonen heroes, not your western swordmage) or can have continual defenses they keep up as a matter of assumed habit that can stop a lightsaber to the gut before you can utter a syllable. Not ones that can be put up as a spell, but ones that exist as a matter of course and are assumed to be present should you not manage to surprise the wizard.

That is something wizards in 3.5 are assumed to be played as here... but it is not true of most wizards in actual stories. Or even D&D bereft of exploiting mechanics because those mechanics don't actually translate to the world they represent universally. Though depending on setting anything you might call an archmage would be about the level where that starts.

And there are of course some settings where yes a wizard going into anything like battle is assumed to have protective shields up, like Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha where that is the express purpose of a Barrier Jacket which is a standard feature of the setting so a Jedi would need to fight a mage from there with it explicitly down implying the mage was caught entirely unprepared or somehow not allowed to take their universal first action when there's trouble. Like having a Jedi who's lightsaber is off and hanging at their belt.

Also in broad terms outside of head to head fights magic is much much better for its greater variety and effects. A Sith can shoot some shortish-range lightning, a wizard can shoot a fire that will go right through that lightnig from longer range and blow the Sith up real dead like.


It follows G-canon, T-canon, C-canon (EU) etc.

Anything that contradicts is dealt with on a case-by-case basis, generally. Although a lot of the ICS is contradicted as it would make ground combat pointless and irrelevant, same too with some of the force powers. Jedi / Sith would never get killed by blasters.

There not so irreconcilable as you seem to be claiming. Unless G-canon specifies explicitly something can't be done (which is frankly never in the movies to my knowledge and with at most a few cases from novelizations) then there is not an automatic contradiction. Most of the contradictions are in events not abilities.

The problem is that versus thread "logic" to its proponents assumes all abilities displayed once or twice in the whole of what they can selective muster are 150% effective 200% of the time. When the truth is that no one in stories is immune to messing up, being surprised, or being overwhelmed.

In actual stories there's no taking 10 with a high enough bonus to guarantee success. Yet versus thread proponents generally argue like they are sitting around the game table and have twenty minutes to sun-tzu up every response while arguing successfully with the GM and looking at the other guys character sheet.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-13, 01:45 PM
Okay, I get that the Movies messed up the Clone Wars, and the Empire era stuff. The Times after, and way before it should still count, shouldn't it?

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 01:50 PM
There not so irreconcilable as you seem to be claiming. Unless G-canon specifies explicitly something can't be done (which is frankly never in the movies to my knowledge and with at most a few cases from novelizations) then there is not an automatic contradiction. And is very rarely so.

Not true. If it contradicts, i.e. changes aspects of the films then it is overriden. For example Wankatine creating force storms that can send a fleet of ships into the sun, or even a planet; Vader being able to send out waves of TK when he struggles with the most basic things - e.g. fight at Cloud City. He even had to lower his saber to move things, concentrate, same as Yoda in the TESB. Yet here we see these same characters perform feats so outlandish that it would have altered the course of the film. Then it is contradicted.

Or feats like forcefields comprised of the force, mental shields that protect their mind from tampering. Yet we clearly see Dooku, Palps read others minds so easily, sense their emotions when by rights they should not be able to.


The problem is that versus thread "logic" to its proponents assumes all abilities displayed once or twice in the whole of what they can selective muster are 150% effective 200% of the time. When the truth is that no one in stories is immune to messing up, being surprised, or being overwhelmed.

Which then conflicts with EU, as we rarely see that happen.

Fan
2012-07-13, 02:29 PM
Then all of EU is non canon, which isn't true, if it was it'd be N canon.

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 02:34 PM
Then all of EU is non canon, which isn't true, if it was it'd be N canon.

You're not reading what I'm typing, it is done on a case-by-case basis. But a lot of EU is contradicted without a doubt, maintianed by those diehard fans that have to have biggatons.

Bigger powers, bigger guns. It is very sad.

Read through some of the awesome and lengthy posts by people in this thread. They go into detail more than I have done.

Kinslayer
2012-07-13, 02:47 PM
And -- Kinslayer -- we did Unicron vs. the Death Star already. The Death Star lost... by quite a lot, much to my surprise.

No, no. That would be a crossover. I meant Unicron in place of the unicorn in The Last Unicorn story.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-13, 02:54 PM
Not true. If it contradicts, i.e. changes aspects of the films then it is overriden. For example Wankatine creating force storms that can send a fleet of ships into the sun, or even a planet; Vader being able to send out waves of TK when he struggles with the most basic things - e.g. fight at Cloud City. He even had to lower his saber to move things, concentrate, same as Yoda in the TESB. Yet here we see these same characters perform feats so outlandish that it would have altered the course of the film. Then it is contradicted.

Or feats like forcefields comprised of the force, mental shields that protect their mind from tampering. Yet we clearly see Dooku, Palps read others minds so easily, sense their emotions when by rights they should not be able to.

I'm not seeing a contradiction here unless the Cloud City fight thing is coming from a later mention by Luke somewhere down the road or you are talking about the movie novelization versus the movie itself which are both G-Canon and arguably here the book would still be an additional detail not a contradiction.

Unlike say the original novelization having Luke in Blue, not Red squadron.

The rest are not contradictions. Inconsistent performance perhaps, but that's a different issue and is what I was talking about in the bad assumptions made by versus threads that don't allow for the concept of inconsistent performance to exist, a very stark view of fiction.

That's of course even granting there is inconsistent. For the clearest example here: Palps big force-storms. They wouldn't help in any case presented in the movies. There is no contradiction in him not using them, because why show himself so openly when he running both sides of the conflict already. That covers the prequels leaving him only involved in RotJ, where his overconfidence is the entire point. Why exert effort when he has an invincible fully operational battle-station to do all the work for him.

The entire point of the unique canon tiers in SW is to allow things like Force storms to be simply reconciled and still count. Its a permissive system by design, though there are of course rough edges.

However until Lucas makes Holiday Special 2: Wookie Boogaloo set when the main cast is all old and where Chewie is still alive, Han and Leia never had Jacen/Jaina/Anakin, and Mara Jade never existed there is no reason to disregard the EU except where specifically nessecary.

Aotrs Commander
2012-07-13, 02:59 PM
However until Lucas makes Holiday Special 2: Wookie Boogaloo set when the main cast is all old and where Chewie is still alive, Han and Leia never had Jacen/Jaina/Anakin, and Mara Jade never existed there is no reason to disregard the EU except where specifically nessecary.

Particularly as the best bits of the EU are arguably the best bits of Star Wars, period *cough*ThrawnTrilogy*cough*TIE Fighter*cough*.

On the other hand, the worst bits of Star Wars are also in the EU!

Yora
2012-07-13, 03:06 PM
If Palpy and Vader could have ripped apart planets, then the Empire wouldn't have bothered to build Death Stars. This is why I hate the EU sometimes; the authors simply don't think about the ramifications of the powers and capabilities they are adding.
The worst thing is, that the author of the prequel movies is guilty of the same thing.
George Lucas is a great producer, but doesn't know anything about directing and scriptwriting. And while he made the initial draft for the first movies, there were dozens of other people involved who made the setting what it is.

JCarter426
2012-07-13, 03:06 PM
The Force is a complicated issue. In general I agree that it's overpowered in the expanded universe as well as the prequel films and TV series to some extent, particularly with lightning; however, it's the Force... with the Force anything should be possible. It's supposed to be mysterious and supernatural. You have to hint at the impossible, while still keeping it within reasonable levels. Tricky. And it inevitably leads to escalation. Of course, magic is the same way in many respects.

One problem with Star Wars is the EU's obsession with the film era and the film characters. 25,000 years of galactic history and only half a century of it matters, and it all involved the same handful of individuals. Well, maybe 90% of it.

Psyren
2012-07-13, 03:39 PM
EU cant be cannon without making the movies either terrible or non-cannon.

"Either?" :smalltongue:

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 03:39 PM
I'm not seeing a contradiction here unless the Cloud City fight thing is coming from a later mention by Luke somewhere down the road or you are talking about the movie novelization versus the movie itself which are both G-Canon and arguably here the book would still be an additional detail not a contradiction.

No, I'm talking about some EU feats done by Vader which would have significantly altered the film - again above posts cover this, cannot remember who did them.


The rest are not contradictions

SW canon works by if say Vader could blow up a mountian in EU stuff prior to the movies, then in the movie cannot stop Luke from plummeting in Cloud City, then that is a contradiction which is them overrriden by G-canon which says it could not have happened, ergo invalid feat.


That's of course even granting there is inconsistent. For the clearest example here: Palps big force-storms. They wouldn't help in any case presented in the movies.

Rubbish. in the Dark Empire series he destroys a fleet, so if he could have killed the Rebellion easily enough. Ergo, invalid feat, overridden by G-canon.


There is no contradiction in him not using them

Handwaving the issue away.


because why show himself so openly when he running both sides of the conflict already.

If he was that powerful he WOULD NOT need to hide and simply wipe them out. Very simple logic.


That covers the prequels leaving him only involved in RotJ, where his overconfidence is the entire point. Why exert effort when he has an invincible fully operational battle-station to do all the work for him.

More handwaving the issue and making excuses. The fact of the matter is he would not need a Death Star, therefore it creates contradiction there too.


The entire point of the unique canon tiers in SW is to allow things like Force storms to be simply reconciled and still count. Its a permissive system by design, though there are of course rough edges.

Wrong.

It is to try and reconcile the abortion that is Star Wars books, and fails, massively so. Kind of why they did not bother with Trek and declared them non-canon. Simpler, less messy, and easier. Also more honest.


However until Lucas makes Holiday Special 2: Wookie Boogaloo set when the main cast is all old and where Chewie is still alive, Han and Leia never had Jacen/Jaina/Anakin, and Mara Jade never existed there is no reason to disregard the EU except where specifically nessecary.

There is where there are contradictions with between C & G-canon.

Traab
2012-07-13, 03:53 PM
There are two main lines in the original trilogy that I think caused the EU power surge.

“Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.”

Basically the scene implied that you could pick up anything with the force, if you just believed it.

And of course,

Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

Which implies you can use the force to do more powerful things than even destroying planets with the force.


Those two lines have probably been used to justify ANYTHING an authors fevered imagination can come up with. "But Lucas! Dude! You even SAID that the force is more powerful than the Death Star! So clearly Luke should be able to use a super star destroyer as a baseball bat to take out an entire fleet just with the power of his mind!"

Fragenstein
2012-07-13, 04:17 PM
No, no. That would be a crossover. I meant Unicron in place of the unicorn in The Last Unicorn story.

Oh, man. Now all I can picture is Shmendrick standing between Unicron and Optimus shouting "Don't hurt him!"

But for the Vader vs. Voldemort? The larger issue on Avada Kedavra was whether or not it could be blocked by a light saber. The eventual concession was that a light saber could be considered a weapon on the same legendary level as the Sword of Gryffindor, making it capable of deflecting AK.

That didn't give Vader an automatic win, though, as Voldemort had many more weapons at his disposal and did not always open with that spell when dueling a worthy opponent. Neither side really admitted defeat unless I missed some vital postings. I still say Voldemort had the edge in mobility, flexibility, stealth and raw destructive power.

And -- Fan -- I do have to keep reminding myself that episodes IV through VI were poor showings for Force users. Luke's training was rushed and ultimately incomplete. Vader was crippled by having most of his body replaced with clumsy cybernetics rather than the Force-friendly flesh of a true Sith. Obi-Wan was an old man past his prime. Palpatine was equally decrepit and (as was considered at the time), rotted from a lifetime of being exposed to the very definition of corruption and decay. Yoda was on his death bed and only clinging to life so that he can hastily prepare Luke.

Compared to others at the peak of their abilities, the four force users of the original trilogy were actually quite pathetic.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-13, 04:36 PM
Compared to others at the peak of their abilities, the four force users of the original trilogy were actually quite pathetic.

If one is to accept the EU as being largely or entirely stuff that actually happened in the same universe as the events of the Original Trilogy, this is pretty much the correct conclusion to come to.

It's also why many people don't accept the Star-Wars Canon structure or the EU in general, because that's certainly not the way they were presented in the films.

If I recall correctly, George Lucas is reputed to still consider the Christmas Special as canon.
(Wiki says that elements of it that were used elsewhere are C-Canon, anything not mentioned elsewhere is S-Canon).
So yeah.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-13, 04:43 PM
G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction.

This requires a contradiction to exist first, which are not merely Fridge Logic opinions but conflicts of facts within the story.

A contradiction is which squad Luke was in at the Battle of Yavin, the movies onscreen say "Red 5" so that was his callsign for that mission whatever the novel says (Blue) despite Lucas having "wrote" both. However the added scenes in the novel such as Luke watching the space-battle or Biggs on Tatooine is still G-canon even though they never made theatrical cut of the movie.

A contradiction is not "well why didn't [Character X] do [Action Y] because they did it in [EU story Z]" that merely is at most an inconsistency in performance.

Which at a broad level are simplicity itself to cover. Just because an Olympic level athlete holds the world record time does not mean they then meet/beat it in every subsequent race.

Now there are good reasons to bring up this inconsistency because that IS something that MUST be taken into account. Whatever happens in the EU (or hell, the prequels) nothing makes Palps flat-out always immune to being thrown off a bridge to his death... because that worked.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-13, 04:53 PM
On the issue of The force users?

1. Wouldn't it be hard for the "Light" side users of the force NOT be operating at peak conditions, due to the fact the Dark side is so stong in the movies?

2. Why would The Emporer and Darth Vader really use those powerful Force abilities? Wasn't it the way of the Sith to operate behind the scenes and use lackeys and henchmen? They where operating in secrecy for 1,000 or so. I think it would be hard to go all out when you have been used to hiding for so long, all your training and what not.

3. Everyone always makes allusions to how "weak" everyone appereared to be in the movies. For instance, Darth Vader in Cloud City. I maintain he wasn't trying his best, cause he was trying to turn Luke. Also, when does everyone do everything perfect all the time?

Fragenstein
2012-07-13, 05:02 PM
1. Wouldn't it be hard for the "Light" side users of the force NOT be operating at peak conditions, due to the fact the Dark side is so stong in the movies?

No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive...

The dark siders are in charge of things, yes. But I'm not so sure that the 'imbalance' of the force in general should be taken that literally.


3. Everyone always makes allusions to how "weak" everyone appereared to be in the movies. For instance, Darth Vader in Cloud City. I maintain he wasn't trying his best, cause he was trying to turn Luke. Also, when does everyone do everything perfect all the time?

The average Joe rim-dweller's allowed to screw up from time to time. The people that the movies revolve around are capable of ruling entire galaxies. That sort of person is usually at the top of their game all the time, otherwise they'd have fallen off the ladder a long time ago.

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 05:07 PM
This requires a contradiction to exist first, which are not merely Fridge Logic opinions but conflicts of facts within the story.

Like you know mega-force powers in EU not seen in the original six films, you mean? Or contradictions in firepower?


A contradiction is which squad Luke was in at the Battle of Yavin, the movies onscreen say "Red 5" so that was his callsign for that mission whatever the novel says (Blue) despite Lucas having "wrote" both. However the added scenes in the novel such as Luke watching the space-battle or Biggs on Tatooine is still G-canon even though they never made theatrical cut of the movie.

No, this is a contradiction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkBiYpD3SDc&feature=related

Here is Galen Marek being able to pull an ISD down yet it seems odd Vader who can match struggles with other stuff in the films. Yet both exist, and if Jedi's could do that they would not need clones, at all. Thus we need to reconcile to G-canon.

Oooh, look another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5LJXwOu6rw&feature=related

Funny that Vader couldn't do that in the films, and had to resort to lifting people up, by hand.


A contradiction is not "well why didn't [Character X] do [Action Y] because they did it in [EU story Z]" that merely is at most an inconsistency in performance.

Yes it is. That's a contradiction. Sort of why EU firepower doesn't work as it would render most ground battles moot.


Which at a broad level are simplicity itself to cover. Just because an Olympic level athlete holds the world record time does not mean they then meet/beat it in every subsequent race.

But his levels, barring injury are usually in the same kind of ball-park time.


Now there are good reasons to bring up this inconsistency because that IS something that MUST be taken into account. Whatever happens in the EU (or hell, the prequels) nothing makes Palps flat-out always immune to being thrown off a bridge to his death... because that worked.

Also by EU standard it should be rare for a Jedi to actually get shot and die by blaster fire.

The ICS that portrays the Jedi Order as heartless monsters...or the Clone Wars, which has actually rewritten entire swaths of canon right before our eyes and has its blessing from George Lucas?

And the fact that Lucas goes out of his way to make battles look like something from WW2 should be a good indicator that EU Jedi cannot do what they appear to.

Maxios
2012-07-13, 05:15 PM
I think George Lucas said somewhere (or if not him, some other guy who had a big hand in TFC) that Galen was the most powerful force user who lived, which is why he managed to pull a friggin' Star Destroyer into a planet.

Also, what is this ICS thing you guys keep mentioning?

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-13, 05:16 PM
The average Joe rim-dweller's allowed to screw up from time to time. The people that the movies revolve around are capable of ruling entire galaxies. That sort of person is usually at the top of their game all the time, otherwise they'd have fallen off the ladder a long time ago.

No one is immune to screwing up. Unless Power Creep Power Seep is a mandated rule of fiction.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-13, 05:17 PM
Incredible Cross-Sections. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Incredible_Cross_Sections)

Jayngfet
2012-07-13, 05:19 PM
I think George Lucas said somewhere (or if not him, some other guy who had a big hand in TFC) that Galen was the most powerful force user who lived, which is why he managed to pull a friggin' Star Destroyer into a planet.

Also, what is this ICS thing you guys keep mentioning?

I'm gonna need a source for that. Mainly because EVERY other force user is "the most powerful force user who lived", and that unlike Revan/Anakin/Whoeverthehellelse, this raises the question of WHY he never got mentioned in the films by anyone, or even suggested to exist.-

Maxios
2012-07-13, 05:19 PM
Incredible Cross-Sections. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Incredible_Cross_Sections)

Ah. Thank you Gylphstone.

Mystic Muse
2012-07-13, 05:22 PM
Well, in the case of Revan, dying roughly 4,000 years before the movies take place may have something to do with it.

EDIT: I should say I don't think Revan is considered to have existed in the movies, I mean that he/she doesn't necessarily contradict the movies by being the most powerful force user. Though, that probably contradicts other "Most powerful force users."

Maxios
2012-07-13, 05:26 PM
I'm gonna need a source for that. Mainly because EVERY other force user is "the most powerful force user who lived", and that unlike Revan/Anakin/Whoeverthehellelse, this raises the question of WHY he never got mentioned in the films by anyone, or even suggested to exist.-

I can't provide a source to that. I just remember reading it a couple years back.

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 05:31 PM
I think George Lucas said somewhere (or if not him, some other guy who had a big hand in TFC) that Galen was the most powerful force user who lived, which is why he managed to pull a friggin' Star Destroyer into a planet.


After Sidious found a kyber crystal, Sidious became the most powerful Force user in history.

http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/lucas/
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/powerful_sith.html
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/powerful_jedi.html
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/midi.html

EDIT: Due to later information presented by Battleship this evidence is retracted.


Also, what is this ICS thing you guys keep mentioning?

Battleship789
2012-07-13, 05:33 PM
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/lucas/
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/powerful_sith.html
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/powerful_jedi.html
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/midi.html

Don't use SS as a source. It is not reliable at all.

Also, Fridge Logic =/= Contradiction.

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 05:33 PM
Here are some more contradictions: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Zillo_Beast

if they had mega powers they should have been able to subdue it, yet they could not.


Don't use SS as a source. It is not reliable at all.

Although there is a George Lucas interview on there, or is that bogus?


Also, Fridge Logic =/= Contradiction.

I'm being dumb here, but can you clarify the point here for me?

Maxios
2012-07-13, 05:35 PM
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/lucas/
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/powerful_sith.html
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/powerful_jedi.html
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/midi.html

I don't see Garen on any of those lists :smallconfused:

Battleship789
2012-07-13, 05:38 PM
I don't see Garen on any of those lists :smallconfused:

That would be because that there is a dead website. (And has been for some time.) I would find anything on that site to be suspect: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SuperShadow

Edit:


*snip*
Although there is a George Lucas interview on there, or is that bogus? Bogus. Very bogus.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-13, 05:42 PM
The whole, "<insert Force-user here>, IS the most POWERFUL Jedi of all TIME!" is, to me just alot of talk. Its like vacuum cleaners, to be precise. Or dish soap.

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 05:44 PM
The whole, "<insert Force-user here>, IS the most POWERFUL Jedi of all TIME!" is, to me just alot of talk. Its like vacuum cleaners, to be precise. Or dish soap.

"Strike me down and Ill clean the floor faster than you can imagine"

Maxios
2012-07-13, 05:51 PM
"Strike me down and Ill clean the floor faster than you can imagine"

...can I quote this?

Rogerd
2012-07-13, 05:51 PM
...can I quote this?

Sig away ;)

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-13, 06:32 PM
I think George Lucas said somewhere (or if not him, some other guy who had a big hand in TFC) that Galen was the most powerful force user who lived, which is why he managed to pull a friggin' Star Destroyer into a planet.

I've seen Lucas quoted at least once as saying that Luke was/is the most powerful. I suspect his record has shifted over the years. (Like him wearing the Han Shot First shirt...)


I'm being dumb here, but can you clarify the point here for me?

At the core because Fridge Logic is a different concept. Its a question you find yourself lingering over later. Its a might involve a contradiction but it the two are not the same thing.

A contradiction is two facts in the story that cannot both be true. Luke was in Red squadron in the movies, and Blue squadron in the book novelization. These are talking about the same event and obviously cannot both be true.

For a different example in the Thrawn Trilogy written prior to the prequels a gap of IIRC around 40 years is quoted between the Clone Wars and the present time of the books itself 5 years after RotJ so 9 ABY. However when the prequels came out (I understand Lucas changed his mind) this became more like 20 years. This is complicated because the event (devastation of the Noghri homeworld) is an important plot point and involves Darth Vader being present as Darth Vader.

This is an outright contradiction you cannot explain away because it would require Vader/Empire before Vader/Empire... obviously the prequel movies overrule despite being vastly inferior works but even this does not invalidate the books which have for a lasting legacy in among other thing Coruscant. And the retcon was simple, the dates were lost in translation by the Noghri. I understand Zahn has written several fix fics providing retcons since his original trilogy was so heavily savaged but is still the cornerstone of the EU.

Anyways a character doing something in one place and not in another is (perhaps) Fridge Logic... it only becomes a contradiction if they explicitly deny a capability in another source. Not they can't in this particular situation, but flat out can't.

Not Luke can Jedi Mind Trick a one species/individual but not a different one, but if he claims he doesn't know the Jedi Mind Trick when its later in his life.


The whole, "<insert Force-user here>, IS the most POWERFUL Jedi of all TIME!" is, to me just alot of talk. Its like vacuum cleaners, to be precise. Or dish soap.

Force power levels have been lame since Kyp Durron showed up. Let's call 'em all Skywalker-tier and stop caring.

Jayngfet
2012-07-13, 10:50 PM
I never got Lucas messing with Thrawn Trilogy dates. I mean obviously he's gonna do what he's gonna do but that kind of series is something he HAS to have read at least a couple of times before starting episode 1, and is built into so many other novels it can't simply be ignored without ignoring major characters and concepts that became institutions that were almost as important as the movies themselves, if not as important to some books.

Philistine
2012-07-14, 01:32 PM
I never got Lucas messing with Thrawn Trilogy dates. I mean obviously he's gonna do what he's gonna do but that kind of series is something he HAS to have read at least a couple of times before starting episode 1, and is built into so many other novels it can't simply be ignored without ignoring major characters and concepts that became institutions that were almost as important as the movies themselves, if not as important to some books.

I don't agree that Lucas "has to" have read Zahn's novels. I'd certainly say he should have, since he (or at least, his agents) approved it as the First Official Star Wars Fiction in about a decade. And I'd also say it would have been useful for him to have done so, since it might have given him some feel for what his audience thought about the OT/expected from the PT (things like "in a binary-morality setting like SW, of course the Dark Side of The Force is balanced by a Light Side - so talking about 'bringing balance to the Force' is not going to be well received" or "obviously the Clone Wars involved the Galactic Republic fighting desperately to hold off the endlessly-replenished forces of Eeeevil Cloners") - if nothing else, so he could make it clear that the was intentionally subverting those expectations instead of appearing to blunder.

But. Lucas in interviews has been extremely dismissive of the EU. He's made it clear that as far as he's is concerned, only the material he creates is Real Star Wars. I think it's unfortunate, and that this attitude does a disservice to everyone involved - including Lucas himself - but at the end of the day, it is his IP.

Xondoure
2012-07-14, 01:35 PM
The Light Side of the Force is another thing that bothers me. The Force is a pure concept of the unity of life. The Dark side is being selfish and careless with it. A Light Side is really just silly.

Xondoure
2012-07-14, 01:36 PM
The Light Side of the Force is another thing that bothers me. The Force is a pure concept of the unity of life. The Dark side is being selfish and careless with it. A Light Side is really just silly.

Edit: Or in other words, balance is what the "light side" is all about. So when the Light Side is maintained the Force has balance, because that's the central concept.

snoopy13a
2012-07-14, 01:42 PM
The Light Side of the Force is another thing that bothers me. The Force is a pure concept of the unity of life. The Dark side is being selfish and careless with it. A Light Side is really just silly.

Edit: Or in other words, balance is what the "light side" is all about. So when the Light Side is maintained the Force has balance, because that's the central concept.

Isn't the Light Side simply an EU creation. I think Yoda and Ben simply refer to "the Force." "The dark side" is implied as the perversion of the Force. So, I think you're basically right.

Also, at the end of the Return of the Jedi, Luke and Leia are the only known people who can use the Force, and neither has fallen to the dark side. So, Anakin does bring balance to the Force, albeit not in the way the Jedi Council had hoped.

Philistine
2012-07-14, 01:43 PM
That's what Lucas claims now, anyway. But the first time that was even hinted at as Lucas's intention was in the DVD commentary on the PT - it's not established on-screen. Remember all the WTFing about the prophecy in TPM? Nobody knew why "bringing balance to the Force" was something the Jedi would want to do, given that there were many "light side" Jedi and a maximum of two "dark side" Sith.

ETA: And of course, the fact of a "Dark Side" necessarily implies there's another Side that's not Dark. Which would be Light. It's not an unreasonable assumption.

Xondoure
2012-07-14, 01:49 PM
That's what Lucas claims now, anyway. But the first time that was even hinted at as Lucas's intention was in the DVD commentary on the PT, though - it's not established on-screen. Remember all the WTFing about the prophecy in TPM? Nobody knew why "bringing balance to the Force" was something the Jedi would want to do, given that there were many "light side" Jedi and a maximum of two "dark side" Sith.

ETA: And of course, the fact of a "Dark" side necessarily implies there's another side that's not Dark. Which would be Light.

Darkness is the lack of light. But in this case I think the intention was that the dark side was the lack of balance and unity between living things.

Philistine
2012-07-14, 02:06 PM
The problem is that logically there cannot be a "Dark Side" unless there's also a "Light Side." Because whatever else the alternative to the "Dark Side" may be, it is necessarily Lighter than the Dark, and it is a Side of the totality rather than the totality itself because it does not include the Dark.

Fundamentally, the problem is Lucas trying to have it both ways. He created a setting with an explicit Good and Evil dualism - the characters are even color-coded so you can tell which are which just by looking! - in the tradition of the old pulp serials, and then retroactively trying to cram a fistful of non-dualistic Eastern philosophy into it. But you just can't get to a non-dualistic place after you've explicitly, canonically identified the Dark Side with Evil.

Traab
2012-07-14, 02:11 PM
The Light Side of the Force is another thing that bothers me. The Force is a pure concept of the unity of life. The Dark side is being selfish and careless with it. A Light Side is really just silly.

Its like the light side and the dark side of electricity imo. A man made distinction that honestly doesnt exist. Sure I could use electricity to light and heat homes, provide entertainment to the masses, or I could use it to torture bunny rabbits and set fire to kittens, but electricity is neither good nor evil, its how I use it.

Devonix
2012-07-14, 02:39 PM
One thing that bugs me with cannon is how some people will say one thing is cannon, and another thing is non cannon.


Why don't they just accept them both as cannon, just seperate ones.

EU is cannon for EU discussions

Movies are cannon for movie discussion.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-14, 02:54 PM
I don't agree that Lucas "has to" have read Zahn's novels. I'd certainly say he should have, since he (or at least, his agents) approved it as the First Official Star Wars Fiction in about a decade. And I'd also say it would have been useful for him to have done so, since it might have given him some feel for what his audience thought about the OT/expected from the PT (things like "in a binary-morality setting like SW, of course the Dark Side of The Force is balanced by a Light Side - so talking about 'bringing balance to the Force' is not going to be well received" or "obviously the Clone Wars involved the Galactic Republic fighting desperately to hold off the endlessly-replenished forces of Eeeevil Cloners") - if nothing else, so he could make it clear that the was intentionally subverting those expectations instead of appearing to blunder.

But. Lucas in interviews has been extremely dismissive of the EU. He's made it clear that as far as he's is concerned, only the material he creates is Real Star Wars. I think it's unfortunate, and that this attitude does a disservice to everyone involved - including Lucas himself - but at the end of the day, it is his IP.

You know I don't think its nessecarily as dismissive as it seems on the surface. I would not be surprised to learn that when the Thrawn Trilogy was being plotted, licensed, and so forth that at some point Zahn or a go between actually asked Lucas for a some basic bullet points on the timing, sides, and so forth.

The real problem is that Lucas changes his mind. A lot. Who here thinks Anakin Skywalker sounded like a teenager when Ben Kenobi is talking about him in SW? Qui-gon Jinn anyone? So anything Lucas might have said behind the scenes in the late 80s he probably had a "better" idea for when it came to actually making the prequels. He never learned to stop revising his own damn material, and doesn't have anyone to stop him from doing so because he has complete control.

And Lucas himself also only seems to barely ever acknowledge that he's written himself into a whole. I'm rather surprised Jimmy Smits made the final cut of RotS, he's really only there because oh-wait Leia has to end up on Alderaan at the end so we get this ineffectual guy running around for an 1/8th of the movie accomplishing little.

Course he can't exactly admit this so he has to pooh-pooh the EU he allowed in the first place because it made him money and drummed up interest for the Special Editions/Prequels.

Jayngfet
2012-07-15, 12:54 AM
I don't agree that Lucas "has to" have read Zahn's novels. I'd certainly say he should have, since he (or at least, his agents) approved it as the First Official Star Wars Fiction in about a decade. And I'd also say it would have been useful for him to have done so, since it might have given him some feel for what his audience thought about the OT/expected from the PT (things like "in a binary-morality setting like SW, of course the Dark Side of The Force is balanced by a Light Side - so talking about 'bringing balance to the Force' is not going to be well received" or "obviously the Clone Wars involved the Galactic Republic fighting desperately to hold off the endlessly-replenished forces of Eeeevil Cloners") - if nothing else, so he could make it clear that the was intentionally subverting those expectations instead of appearing to blunder.

But. Lucas in interviews has been extremely dismissive of the EU. He's made it clear that as far as he's is concerned, only the material he creates is Real Star Wars. I think it's unfortunate, and that this attitude does a disservice to everyone involved - including Lucas himself - but at the end of the day, it is his IP.

Even in being dismissive Lucas has shown to have at least a working understanding of Zahn's OC's and plots. I mean even by TPM it'd become a cornerstone that's important for a lot of EU stuff. He can be dismissive but he certainly isn't ignorant. There's a big difference between saying something isn't important enough to take seriously and isn't important enough to even look at on this scale.

Also, on the "Light Side" argument, I find the main problem to be that "Light Side" is an extremely stupid name for it. That's really the main issue here I think.

Philistine
2012-07-15, 09:59 AM
But what else would you call it, once ANH established that Dark Side=Evil? "Light Side" is the logical, natural oppositional force (heh) to "Dark Side."

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-15, 11:28 AM
But what else would you call it, once ANH established that Dark Side=Evil? "Light Side" is the logical, natural oppositional force (heh) to "Dark Side."

The Dark side is not the opposite of the force, it is a distortion, a perversion of it. (Keyed to what would otherwise be negative but natural emotions etc).
It makes the Force assymetrical and unbalanced by existing, hanging off one side of it as it does. Therefor, removing the darkside of the force from the equation brings balance to the force.

Except not, cause that's all just my own headcanon but you get the idea.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-15, 11:42 AM
I've always considered the Dark/Light side division more of a doctrine then a feature of the Force itself. Which by description should be a rather neutral force. This isn't to say its not real division and Jedi and Sith are just competing sects, but that the Dark Side is more about the user, who can only use certain aspects of the Force safely. There's more then a few cases of Light-sided users with Dark side elements, Mace Windu for example, its just that tapping into elements like anger and aggression are inherently more dangerous to the user. Doing so would safely actually be more complex then normal Jedi use, but doing so quickly is the nature of it creating a feedback loop that gives us our Sith jerkassery.

tl:dr The Light-side is a proscribed pharmaceutical taken according to directions, the Dark-side is an illegal drug, the Force is Chemistry.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-15, 11:52 AM
Okay, this is a good thread so far. I just wanted to ask, WHY do Wizards(it doesn't matter what setting) get the benifits of instaporting around the field and flying. Even if the setting doesn't warrent it. I am sure that wizafans would even make some convaluted way for Harry Dresden to do these feats.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-15, 12:14 PM
Okay, this is a good thread so far. I just wanted to ask, WHY do Wizards(it doesn't matter what setting) get the benifits of instaporting around the field and flying. Even if the setting doesn't warrent it. I am sure that wizafans would even make some convaluted way for Harry Dresden to do these feats.

Because those are much more common to the magical settings. I'd hazard that even most settings have one or both availible to them. Well teleportation in a "shortening of the way" sense, actual tactical teleportation is pretty rare. Flight though goes back to myths and traditions like the flying carpet or Baba Yaga scooting around on a mortar curdling milk and knocking down churches just from flying overhead.

And the Dresdenverse totally supports flight mechanically. It would hardly be convoluted at all, use magic to apply a force greater then gravity's pull. Harry himself has tried it and uses force magic routinely. What keep wizards in the Dresdenverse a ground-pounders is that they don't ignore the potential complications, especially for learning to fly. Harry as we all know weak in fine control, and that's what flying requires. Which is why when he tried to learn how to fly he ended up crashing, or so he says. I suspect there was also burning involved.

Also flying is much less useful when anybody can have a gun.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-15, 01:04 PM
Okay, another thing I wanted pointed it out, is the whole magic makes you immune to the force. Take for instance, the wizard flying around. It has been stated that a jedi would just have to Force pull them down. The counter arugument is that the wizard would just have to throw up a shield or just fly away.

I don't think it would work this way. Insofar as that the force isn't like wind or gravity working against you. Its your very atoms working against you. I don't think the shields wrap themselves around them and protects against them.

Fragenstein
2012-07-15, 01:34 PM
Okay, another thing I wanted pointed it out, is the whole magic makes you immune to the force. Take for instance, the wizard flying around. It has been stated that a jedi would just have to Force pull them down. The counter arugument is that the wizard would just have to throw up a shield or just fly away.

One of the stated conditions of the Vader vs. Voldemort thread was that magic and the force were analogous. That meant force powers could be treated as spells in the Potterverse and spells could be treated as force powers in the counter.

Force TK was assumed to exert an energetic field to do the actual manipulating, which made it vulnerable to the numerous ways wizards had of deflecting such things. I can't say this is always going to be the case.

Maxios
2012-07-15, 02:07 PM
One of the stated conditions of the Vader vs. Voldemort thread was that magic and the force were analogous. That meant force powers could be treated as spells in the Potterverse and spells could be treated as force powers in the counter.

Force TK was assumed to exert an energetic field to do the actual manipulating, which made it vulnerable to the numerous ways wizards had of deflecting such things. I can't say this is always going to be the case.

Yeah, I think Vader would win that fight.

Xondoure
2012-07-15, 02:22 PM
Yeah, I think Vader would win that fight.

I'm of the opposite opinion. Too bad the thread is dead (except not cause it had started to run in circles.)

Kyberwulf
2012-07-15, 02:22 PM
You say they where suppose to be analogous. That to me, suggests if the force creates a fire type effect, that the Wizards could have a defense against it. If the Wizards threw a Fire type spell, The force users could use the Absobtion ability. The agreed upon Analogous was put into effect so that it would just degrade into a, This spell.. Deflected, this power... deflected. Instead the whole Base source of the Force user is removed, and is turned into a weakened wizard of some type.

Fragenstein
2012-07-15, 02:58 PM
You say they where suppose to be analogous. That to me, suggests if the force creates a fire type effect, that the Wizards could have a defense against it. If the Wizards threw a Fire type spell, The force users could use the Absobtion ability. The agreed upon Analogous was put into effect so that it would just degrade into a, This spell.. Deflected, this power... deflected. Instead the whole Base source of the Force user is removed, and is turned into a weakened wizard of some type.

Force Absorption had become a major point of contention. A wizard is able to set up wards and protective spells that act as magical force fields surrounding their entire bodies that require no further concentration.

Force users seem to be more limited in that they have to focus on the power being negated. A protected wizard is free to engage their opponent in many many ways. A Force user might devote most of their attention towards their own defenses.

Spells also don't have to be issued as points of slow moving energy like blaster attacks. Wizards, including Voldemort, can produce 'area effect' and other indirect attacks. It's possible that Vader wouldn't be able to Force absorb a fiery wave that came at him, silently, from behind.

Plus Vader can't teleport or teleport in reinforcements. He still loses.

This isn't thread necromancy, is it? Because, when you look at it, there's another power wizards have over force users.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-15, 03:30 PM
That is one of my points I am trying to make. The force is in everything. Even inside that protective bubble. It could still be manipulated. Saying that the force has to obay laws of Magic, without Magic having to worry about anything of the force?

Btw, I didn't bring up any spacific person vs person. I am asking how the two abilities should interact.

Flickerdart
2012-07-15, 04:07 PM
That is one of my points I am trying to make. The force is in everything. Even inside that protective bubble. It could still be manipulated. Saying that the force has to obay laws of Magic, without Magic having to worry about anything of the force?

Btw, I didn't bring up any spacific person vs person. I am asking how the two abilities should interact.
The Force might be in everything, but that doesn't mean you can use it in that way. If there were 5 million safes, and the wizard was locked in one of them, it doesn't matter if you know the combination to the other 4,999,999. Since defenses canonically exist against Force techniques, it is foolish to argue that the Force can penetrate protection like that.

Fragenstein
2012-07-15, 04:16 PM
That is one of my points I am trying to make. The force is in everything. Even inside that protective bubble. It could still be manipulated. Saying that the force has to obay laws of Magic, without Magic having to worry about anything of the force?

That is an interesting observation, however. It takes the concept of the Force comprising a universal totality and makes it literal. The Force isn't just an energy field that obeys the Einstein/Planck defined rules of light-speed-transmission, but rather it's a subspace unity where the Force element within me is the same as the Force element within you.

No, not the same as. It would be the same. The Force presence in me is the literal same force element within you.

That means by manipulating the Force in my immediate vicinity, I can instantly produce changes in the Force of your vicinity. That would bypass any intervening barriers even on a quantum level because the entire sub-universe would operate by laws governed by sympathetic magic.

Force user would certainly have the edge if that were true. But then, why the need for light sabers or other trappings if the Force could truly be manipulated on such a fundamental level?

Actually, it would be more than a fundamental level. It would provide the very firmament of the fundamental level of the universe.


Btw, I didn't bring up any spacific person vs person. I am asking how the two abilities should interact.

Don't matter. That debate was epic.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-15, 04:25 PM
The Force might be in everything, but that doesn't mean you can use it in that way. If there were 5 million safes, and the wizard was locked in one of them, it doesn't matter if you know the combination to the other 4,999,999.

Umm not really.

The point being made is that when Jedi move something with the Force it is implied sometimes (Yoda and the X-Wing would one exampl) they aren't say gathering a bunch of energy and exerting it, but actually willing the object itself to move.

So a shield is completely meaningless because there's conceptually nothing to be blocked because nothing has to cross it in the first place. A wall means nothing when there are as many invaders inside it as outside it.

To your example the Jedi would not need to know any combination since they would will the mechanics of the locks to move and open.

Mind you I don't know that that is how the Force is conceived to work in this context.

Traab
2012-07-15, 04:38 PM
Umm not really.

The point being made is that when Jedi move something with the Force it is implied sometimes (Yoda and the X-Wing would one exampl) they aren't say gathering a bunch of energy and exerting it, but actually willing the object itself to move.

So a shield is completely meaningless because there's conceptually nothing to be blocked because nothing has to cross it in the first place. A wall means nothing when there are as many invaders inside it as outside it.

To your example the Jedi would not need to know any combination since they would will the mechanics of the locks to move and open.

Mind you I don't know that that is how the Force is conceived to work in this context.

On the other hand, that implies that a jedi could take control over something that was created by the wizards will and power. Sort of like taking over another jedis force jump to make him plant his skull into the ceiling. Thats why, for simplicities sake, we made them equivalent, so neither one has an intrinsic power over the other, or immunity. So a wizard cant stand there with a protego and yawn as the force user cant do squat against it, or a wizard wont find his own spells turned against him because the jedi is able to manipulate the energy that binds everything together and so he took control of the spell from the wizard.

Flickerdart
2012-07-15, 04:40 PM
So a shield is completely meaningless because there's conceptually nothing to be blocked because nothing has to cross it in the first place. A wall means nothing when there are as many invaders inside it as outside it.
Except there are a ton of defensive techniques in the Force, so this cannot be true.

Fragenstein
2012-07-15, 05:08 PM
Except there are a ton of defensive techniques in the Force, so this cannot be true.

Unless Force based defenses become a contest of wills as to who can effect the the greater change. Midicholorians become the medium through which we communicate our intentions to the force. The greater that communication, the more powerful a person becomes in manipulating the force.

A direct attack becomes an attempt to alter the force in harming a target, while the target attempts to defend themselves through a counter manipulation.

Force Lightning would cease to be a direct projection of Force energy itself and, instead, become actual electrical currents stimulated by manipulation of this Force conceived sub-space unity.

If magic is then limited to, at best, quantum level communications then it's going to be at a disadvantage. But then, as Traab said, they would cease to become analogies.

So it's still an interesting concept outside of the VvsV debate...

Kyberwulf
2012-07-15, 05:19 PM
I know people want to reference Other threads like that. I don't mind a reference to them in passing, or to be use as examples. However I am NOT looking to ressurect any threads or versus battles. I wanted to open a thread to discuss why certain things are seen a certain way.

The need for Lightsabers is three-fold. For the Jedi its so they don't use the force itself to Harm living creatures. That I think we can agree on is a perversion off the force.
Having a Weapon that can cut threw most things is a great utility tool. :P
Lastly, I think when facing an opponent with similar powers and abilities it helps to have something to fall back on.

Traab
2012-07-15, 05:30 PM
I know people want to reference Other threads like that. I don't mind a reference to them in passing, or to be use as examples. However I am NOT looking to ressurect any threads or versus battles. I wanted to open a thread to discuss why certain things are seen a certain way.

The need for Lightsabers is three-fold. For the Jedi its so they don't use the force itself to Harm living creatures. That I think we can agree on is a perversion off the force.
Having a Weapon that can cut threw most things is a great utility tool. :P
Lastly, I think when facing an opponent with similar powers and abilities it helps to have something to fall back on.

Heh, for some reason I thought vegan when I read the line about not using the force to hurt people. Sort of, how many degrees removed from directly using the force to harm someone makes it ok? I mean, with a saber you are using the force to speed your movements, to see a few seconds ahead and adjust your line of attack, to keep from cutting off your own limbs by mistake, etc. You are still using the force to kill someone, its just not being used to directly break the persons neck, but does that really make it ok?

Kyberwulf
2012-07-15, 05:31 PM
I think they would still be Analogies... Cuase fire for fire .. Lightning for lightning, Energy for Energy. Just because Wizards don't have the same kind of power source as Force Users, that shouldn't mean you cut off the source of force Users power or contrive it into something Wizards have defenses already set up in place.

I don't remember which thread, but people where saying that Jedi's should be like a spellsword, or some other thing. If they where put into D&D. That got me thinking, what happen to using Psions as a reference. To take it further, there was a d20 Star Wars RPG you could use.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-15, 05:37 PM
I think they would still be Analogies... Cuase fire for fire .. Lightning for lightning, Energy for Energy. Just because Wizards don't have the same kind of power source as Force Users, that shouldn't mean you cut off the source of force Users power or contrive it into something Wizards have defenses already set up in place.

I think you're still not getting the whole transparency thing. Saying Force Defenses stop Wizard Attacks and Wizard Defenses stop Force Attacks isn't some sort arbitrary slant to favor wizards, it's a basic tenet of vs. discussions to level the playing field. Otherwise, both sides have a vast assortment of unblockable attacks and the entire discussion fizzles down to 'who wins initiative', so to speak. That makes for boring discussions.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-15, 05:38 PM
No, it doesn't make it okay. That's why they generally don't try to get into fights one would think. They where only suppose to use their Sabers in defence of themselves or others, and only as a last resort.

Using the force to enhance yourself is permitable I think, cause your using it to ya know.. not die.
However using the force directly on a living being as an attack is looked down upon. It's not a corruption of the force, more so its a corruption of yourself.

Jayngfet
2012-07-15, 05:50 PM
Umm not really.

The point being made is that when Jedi move something with the Force it is implied sometimes (Yoda and the X-Wing would one exampl) they aren't say gathering a bunch of energy and exerting it, but actually willing the object itself to move.

So a shield is completely meaningless because there's conceptually nothing to be blocked because nothing has to cross it in the first place. A wall means nothing when there are as many invaders inside it as outside it.

To your example the Jedi would not need to know any combination since they would will the mechanics of the locks to move and open.

Mind you I don't know that that is how the Force is conceived to work in this context.

If that's the case, then why did Maul and Obi-Wan stop when the force fields were up? If they weren't blocked by force fields when using the force Maul would have just force choked Obi-Wan to death or threw him into a field or any number of tricks.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-15, 05:55 PM
Thats simple. Obi knows the force and knows how to protect himself from force attacks. Read Fragenstein post.

Kyberwulf
2012-07-15, 06:00 PM
On the subject of Transperancy. If you draw a picture on one sheet of tracing paper, and try to draw the exact same picture on another sheet of paper. If you hold them to the light, they aren't gonna be exact replicas line for line, swirl for swirl.
The same is for powers on these Vs. thread. You can only make certain things add up. Trying to make them BOTH the exact same, takes the fun out of these fights. Vs. threads are about trying to see who would react best to the unknown.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-15, 06:05 PM
Except there are a ton of defensive techniques in the Force, so this cannot be true.

Oh you can defend against such things, its just under what conceptual structure do those defenses function.

Lets take the Force powers as being orders to reality by Jedi. If Jedi A orders an object to "move", it moves. Now lets add a Jedi B who is simultaneously giving an order "do not move" and you have two conflicting actions. Assuming there's a medium of resolution (skill, willpower, etc) to arbitrate the conflicting orders one would have a defense.

Again not say this is the case but a bubble style shield being meaningless does not mean defenses cannot exist, they have to operate on a different structure. Not a bubble but say a continuous field that corrects the bubble being hollow.


I think you're still not getting the whole transparency thing. Saying Force Defenses stop Wizard Attacks and Wizard Defenses stop Force Attacks isn't some sort arbitrary slant to favor wizards, it's a basic tenet of vs. discussions to level the playing field. Otherwise, both sides have a vast assortment of unblockable attacks and the entire discussion fizzles down to 'who wins initiative', so to speak. That makes for boring discussions.

I hold the opposite opinion, differing systems should interact in the most minimal way possible. Because the metaphysical questions are ones that are not ultimately answerable unless the two settings run a crossover to give some weight and authority to the rules overlap. Otherwise you just have arbitrary opinions on how things work.

I prefer to minimize to practical ends with as little overlap as possible. One doesn't need Mind Blank to function against the Jedi Mind Trick to make a decision on whether X character can resist the Jedi Mind Trick, when we've statements the willpower will function.

Regardless though who "wins initiative" is still generally all one needs to make a decision on the proverbial fair fight. Where two combatants start off at a some distance on an open playing field with no more then the most basic of preparations taken. There a Jedi WILL win except under certain conditions.

I think I can narrow them down to three conditions:

1) The distance is too great for a Jedi to cover and act before their opponent can act to either beat the Jedi at range, or erect a defense that will stop a lightsaber.

2) The opponent has some form of defense that can be assumed to be present that will prevent a lightsaber from harming them. Like an always up shield or a the ability to regenerate.

3) The opponent themselves operate either as fast or faster then the Jedi.

These conditions apply to any fighter type really. Heck modifications would determine just about any fight. Outrange, outdefend, or outfight.

Devonix
2012-07-15, 06:06 PM
If that's the case, then why did Maul and Obi-Wan stop when the force fields were up? If they weren't blocked by force fields when using the force Maul would have just force choked Obi-Wan to death or threw him into a field or any number of tricks.

The Force works through forcefields and even through long distances.

Vader Force choked someone on another ship that was inside an asteroid field while he was on a ship outside of it, As long as you know where something or someone is with enough detail you can affect them with the force. Though in combat it isn't quite as affective I would assume.

I'm just now imagining a Deathnote style mystery with a sith killing people via force and television.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-15, 06:08 PM
And....in this case, who reacts first wins, because there are two sides with unblockable, undodgable, and irresistible death attacks. An interesting versus, that does not make.

Comparatively, when you see that both sides in a theoretical versus match have Telekinesis, except one is powered by giving sacrifices to Magical Space Wombats who then tug on invisible cosmic strings and the other is powered by ritually painting their toenails purple every full moon to fuel their psychic energy batteries, it's simpler and more logical to say the Magical Space Wombats anti-telekinesis abilities work on both their Telekinesis and the other sides' Telekinesis (and vice versa), than getting bogged down in the minutae of whether psychic energy can stop cosmic strings from vibrating or not.



I hold the opposite opinion, differing systems should interact in the most minimal way possible. Because the metaphysical questions are ones that are not ultimately answerable unless the two settings run a crossover to give some weight and authority to the rules overlap. Otherwise you just have arbitrary opinions on how things work.
That's fair, but my overall point is that equalizing like end effects isn't some grand conspiracy to arbitrarily make one 'side' better, it's just a standard convention in Versus matches to make the arguments flow better.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-15, 06:41 PM
That's fair, but my overall point is that equalizing like end effects isn't some grand conspiracy to arbitrarily make one 'side' better, it's just a standard convention in Versus matches to make the arguments flow better.

Surely it's also true that sometimes, however, a versus fight really does just boil down to "whoever goes first" and an uninteresting matchup?
In all the ways to pit, say, Vader against Voldemort, a straight up deathmatch is probably the one I'd find least interesting.

Fragenstein
2012-07-15, 06:56 PM
That's fair, but my overall point is that equalizing like end effects isn't some grand conspiracy to arbitrarily make one 'side' better, it's just a standard convention in Versus matches to make the arguments flow better.

But that's where Force users run into trouble. As perceived by hardest canon, Force users have few powers that affect the universe in more limited ways. It's a subtle power, not a grand wave of obliteration such as most wizards whip out. Even the modest deeply versed Sith lord is hard-pressed to launch much in the way of direct damage.

When taken on comparable physics, magic wielders nearly always demonstrate a greater variety of powers and a vastly overwhelming use of destruction.

Now, bringing out samples taken from the EU will give Force users a better standing. They have more destructive abilities and more tools at their disposal. By the same token, selecting a mage from a universe where magic is limited to influencing nature or gently nudging fate then we may see the roles reversed.

It's not so much that the Force doesn't count when being plied against magic, it's just that magical fantasy works average out to a higher potency.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-15, 07:09 PM
And....in this case, who reacts first wins, because there are two sides with unblockable, undodgable, and irresistible death attacks. An interesting versus, that does not make.

I'd argue that putting aside setting as much as possible that the archetypal wizard will loose to the standard Jedi. Because Jedi are going to be broadly speaking faster to act and bring all that to bear.

Now high level wizards (of some settings) reverse that trend and magic users still broadly go up higher on the usefully applied power scale then Jedi do, but they aren't in my mind typical.


Comparatively, when you see that both sides in a theoretical versus match have Telekinesis, except one is powered by giving sacrifices to Magical Space Wombats who then tug on invisible cosmic strings and the other is powered by ritually painting their toenails purple every full moon to fuel their psychic energy batteries, it's simpler and more logical to say the Magical Space Wombats anti-telekinesis abilities work on both their Telekinesis and the other sides' Telekinesis (and vice versa), than getting bogged down in the minutae of whether psychic energy can stop cosmic strings from vibrating or not.

As far as playing TK tug o' war yes this is true as most TK can only move so much mass and regardless of how one exerts force one an opposite force will balance it out or exceed it. That's exactly the sort of practical end I'm talking about.

Talking about say a shield or other protection though the manner of TK becomes relevant. Because its not "TK vs TK" anymore its "TK vs Defense" which is a major conceptual difference. The practical endpoint approach is about minimizing interaction to as much as possible, which still demands interaction where nessecary.

To make a different example should a Jedi be able to use Force powers on a 3.5 Golem?

My answer would be "Yes" because its meant to be an immunity to magic, which the Force can be separated from. A Jedi couldn't use mental abilities though since a Golem doesn't broadly speaking have a mind to effect, the effect doesn't match up. Force Push though, not a problem.

Aotrs Commander
2012-07-15, 07:55 PM
To make a different example should a Jedi be able to use Force powers on a 3.5 Golem?

My answer would be "Yes" because its meant to be an immunity to magic, which the Force can be separated from. A Jedi couldn't use mental abilities though since a Golem doesn't broadly speaking have a mind to effect, the effect doesn't match up. Force Push though, not a problem.

To be fair, though, I'd say that's not overly different from a wizard using Orb of [Thing], which I equate to a magically-created, non-magical [Thing]-blaster-bolt. Golem magic immunity doesn't actually protect them from magic, come to that, it protects them from a subset of spells (and powers). They aren't immune to breath weapons (or, say, the Su Desert Wind strikes/boosts) - and most of the rest of the supernatural abilities they are immune to is because of the fact they don't have a metabolism and a mind, not because they are immune to magic (at least half of which probably wouldn't work on droids, either.)

I suspect shields must have some influence of the Force, as well, because otherwise the Jedi wouldn't have so much trouble with all those shielded Droidekas; if it doesn't, by rights, they ought be able to knobble them much more easily.

Devonix
2012-07-15, 08:15 PM
I'd argue that putting aside setting as much as possible that the archetypal wizard will loose to the standard Jedi. Because Jedi are going to be broadly speaking faster to act and bring all that to bear.

Now high level wizards (of some settings) reverse that trend and magic users still broadly go up higher on the usefully applied power scale then Jedi do, but they aren't in my mind typical.



As far as playing TK tug o' war yes this is true as most TK can only move so much mass and regardless of how one exerts force one an opposite force will balance it out or exceed it. That's exactly the sort of practical end I'm talking about.

Talking about say a shield or other protection though the manner of TK becomes relevant. Because its not "TK vs TK" anymore its "TK vs Defense" which is a major conceptual difference. The practical endpoint approach is about minimizing interaction to as much as possible, which still demands interaction where nessecary.

To make a different example should a Jedi be able to use Force powers on a 3.5 Golem?

My answer would be "Yes" because its meant to be an immunity to magic, which the Force can be separated from. A Jedi couldn't use mental abilities though since a Golem doesn't broadly speaking have a mind to effect, the effect doesn't match up. Force Push though, not a problem.


The thing is that the force was never really just TK

In the original trillogy it was described and used as if you are using the force to connect to what it is that you want to affect and that you are using your connection to affect that thing in some way. You're not lifting it with tk so much as making the object lift itself up.

Manipulating something in the force is exerting your will on it to do something other than what it is doing, via mind manipulation, or other such things.

Devonix
2012-07-15, 08:16 PM
BTW I still say that most mages will win in direct confontations but that's because the force's best abilities and most deadly aren't directly tied to damage output in a fight.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-15, 08:18 PM
BTW I still say that most mages will win in direct confontations but that's because the force's best abilities and most deadly aren't directly tied to damage output in a fight.

Depending on which universe's magic you're using, that's also true about wizards. To use an easy example, damage output in a fight is the weakest thing a D&D wizard can be used for. (though they are still good at it).

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-15, 10:07 PM
To be fair, though, I'd say that's not overly different from a wizard using Orb of [Thing], which I equate to a magically-created, non-magical [Thing]-blaster-bolt. Golem magic immunity doesn't actually protect them from magic, come to that, it protects them from a subset of spells (and powers). They aren't immune to breath weapons (or, say, the Su Desert Wind strikes/boosts) - and most of the rest of the supernatural abilities they are immune to is because of the fact they don't have a metabolism and a mind, not because they are immune to magic (at least half of which probably wouldn't work on droids, either.)

I suspect shields must have some influence of the Force, as well, because otherwise the Jedi wouldn't have so much trouble with all those shielded Droidekas; if it doesn't, by rights, they ought be able to knobble them much more easily.

Which if meaningful at all merely emphasizes how problematic trying to make systems overlap at more then isn't without problems. To say nothing of the insanity of Immunity to Magic being interpreted as immunity to "Spells that Allow SR" that can only arise from the minutiae of gaming rules not actual story telling. (Also I have a counter RAW argument based on the general Golem description but that need not delay us here)

As for the Droudekas, I'm rather skeptical there. As Jedi are pretty sparing in use of any Force ability but personal buffs/swordsmanship in general. We'd need an actual attempt and failure, not just a question of "well why didn't they [creative application M]" to say they didn't work.


The thing is that the force was never really just TK

In the original trillogy it was described and used as if you are using the force to connect to what it is that you want to affect and that you are using your connection to affect that thing in some way. You're not lifting it with tk so much as making the object lift itself up.

Manipulating something in the force is exerting your will on it to do something other than what it is doing, via mind manipulation, or other such things.

To levitate something you need to exert force exceeding to the local gravity on an opposing vector. Otherwise it will not work because the gravity will just pull it back. In fact any force exerted on mass will move it, so simply willing an object to move does not preclude other forces acting upon it. So basically TK can always be expressed in terms of applying force, and therefore TK can always in theory neutralize other forms of TK even if they function differently.

Now Yoda and the X-wing suggest that a sufficiently enlightened Jedi has effectively unlimited strenght TK, but there's plenty of precedent for it having some practical limits in application.


BTW I still say that most mages will win in direct confontations but that's because the force's best abilities and most deadly aren't directly tied to damage output in a fight.

Most mages have their heads or other limbs sliced off by a lightsaber before they finish their spell. It doesn't matter what you can do if you aren't quick enough to do it. Most magic requires actual time to perform.

Though this is admittedly dependent on ones starting ranges.

Flickerdart
2012-07-15, 10:59 PM
Most mages have their heads or other limbs sliced off by a lightsaber before they finish their spell. It doesn't matter what you can do if you aren't quick enough to do it. Most magic requires actual time to perform.

Though this is admittedly dependent on ones starting ranges.
Unless the duel starts with the lightsaber activated and against the mage's throat, using it also takes time. And even beheading might not be fatal to particularly powerful mages.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-16, 02:15 AM
Unless the duel starts with the lightsaber activated and against the mage's throat, using it also takes time. And even beheading might not be fatal to particularly powerful mages.

Its called Squishy Wizard for a reason last I was aware

Hitting a button and swinging an arm takes fractions of a second, far less time then invoking any sort of arcane chant or anything needing serious concentration. The vast majority of the time is lost in how much distance a Jedi must cover to close to striking distance. (This is of course even making huge grant that the magic user will begin with an unavoidable and instant win spell, which is quite the leap for 'typical' here)

And very few settings make beheading merely inconvenient. If you meant to say "liches" or something similar you can have a point, but only a limited number of settings support that sort of muckery and its always going to be a limited number.

Are there wizards that can beat Jedi?

Sure thing I can name more then few, most of them though will tend to be main (or at least named) characters of significance in their setting. If someone say Takamachi Nanoha and Luke Skywalker, I bet on the White Devil. If someone just says wizard and Jedi though, then I bet on the Jedi.

Magic on a broad level is better then the Force, but then again its an entire type against one permutation of said type its to be expected. However the Jedi is a more efficient package versus the wizard.