Western Fantasy... from Asia.

[Yora]

It's not exactly new. Final Fantasy and Record of Lodoss War both go back to 1986.
But just recently I noticed how much there is: Full Metal Alchemist, Berserk, Bastard, Claymore, Demon's Souls/Dark Souls, Rune Soldier, Aion, Tower of Druaga, Castlevania, Lineage, and probably lots more I don't remember now or never heard off.

Nothing wrong with that, we do the same thing with their stuff. The strange thing is, I kind of like what they did with it. True, many cliches we think should have died 20 years ago are celebrated to high levels and a lot of it is even painfully blue eyed.
But somehow it seems more carefree and actually even better at capturing the essence of it. I like Dragon Age and The Witcher a lot and think they are great developments into the right direction. But only one right direction, since it seems to be lacking something. Not something essential or important, but these silly Japanese and Korean guys still have it!

What are your feelings?

[tensai_oni]

Slayers were making fun of RPG cliches before many people on this board even started playing RPGs.

And I mean tabletop, not video game cliches. Trigger-happy spellcasters, characters with no care for collateral damage as long as they beat up the bad guys (because they're the heroes!), stacking templates, etc.

Also I think you can't really put laidback and silly anime like Slayers or Rune Soldier Louie in the same category as dark and gritty titles in the vein of Berserk or Claymore. They're all fantasy but that's as far as similarities go.

[Prime32]

Looking at how it's filtered by another culture is a good way to better understand the genre's component parts.

Eg. Slayers captures the essence of D&D very well, so if you're trying to refine D&D then emulating Slayers can help you keep sight of your goals.

[Kasanip]

:smallredface:
A post should be made, but don't know to write the answer.　

[Cespenar]

As two people's observations of the same thing will be different, so is the case for different cultures. Pretty obvious, actually.

[Yora]

Yes, but as I watch these things, it appears to me that it's not actually that different.
These anime and video games have a feel that I also associate with the Conan movie and the Dark Sun and Planescape settings. At least in my perception, it's less an alternative interpretation than a preservation of certain aspects that have falled out of fashion in the western entertainment industry. But when I would have to put a finger on it what these aspects would be, all I can tell are actually those that I don't like and think are stupid. But the end result I kind of like even more.

[MLai]

This thread kind of raises the question of... how/when did the Jpnese get into AD&D style gaming and storytelling??

(1) AFAIK, Jpnese ppl don't play pen-paper RPGs like AD&D? Did they? I never got the impression they did. In fact, exactly what did their geeks do before Nintendo was born?

(2) AFAIK, Record of Lodoss War was the first big "AD&D" style anime? Am I right? So, where did they get the idea to do this? Did they play AD&D on paper, or were they introduced via the SSR gold box games???

(3) And I just friggin' know they didn't read Tolkien. There's no way.

[tensai_oni]

Why are you treating Japan as some strange foreign land that never heard of the rest of the world's inventions?
That country certainly has tabletop games and players, and even releases its own titles - it's niche but then, tabletop RPG is niche in every other country as well.
To think that the Japanese never heard of Tolkien is just ignorant. Especially now, that the movies made Lord of the Rings leave the territory of geekdom and enter popular culture.
Some western gaming franchises are as a matter of fact extremely popular in Japan, even more so than in the west. Such as the Ultima and Wizardry series, the latter having more unofficial sequels than official releases.
Record of Lodoss War as a matter of fact was first, or at least the first series that also became so popular - its creator, Ryo Mizuno, took his homebrewed tabletop setting and wrote books about it. And they proved so popular they spawned video games, anime and more. He achieved what every DnD game master secretely wishes for, for his game to become a real franchise. One that started as early as the 80s to that.

[Terraoblivion]

In other words, Record of the Lodoss War is in a very real sense the Japanese Dragonlance. It's almost literally the same story of how it was made, just with a Japanese dude instead of a pair of Americans as the original creator.

I can't help but wonder though...if the Japanese have been so completely separated from western fantasy, why are wood dwelling elves so common in stuff they make?

Also, MLai, I have to ask...what is your grudge against the As in Japanese? You never use them.

[Yora]

Japan is certainly a unique culture, but I'd say their most remarkable trait is that they are, and have been for a very long time, extremely interested in what things can be found anywhere in the world and would be of use to them. Not only in technology and science, but in culture and entertainment as well. If something was moderately popular in China, Korea, America, or Europe, you can be almost sure that some Japanese heard about it and shared it with their country. And sometimes things get popular and the Japanese make their own version of it. Like baseball, electronics, cars, Buddhism, beer, and countless others. And as shown in the first post, there is quite a substential number of western fantasy fiction that is popular enough to make it back to Europe and America.

[Dr.Epic]

Trigun too a little bit.

[Tengu_temp]

Trigun too a little bit.

Not that kind of western.

[Cespenar]

Japan is certainly a unique culture, but I'd say their most remarkable trait is that they are, and have been for a very long time, extremely interested in what things can be found anywhere in the world and would be of use to them. Not only in technology and science, but in culture and entertainment as well. If something was moderately popular in China, Korea, America, or Europe, you can be almost sure that some Japanese heard about it and shared it with their country. And sometimes things get popular and the Japanese make their own version of it. Like baseball, electronics, cars, Buddhism, beer, and countless others. And as shown in the first post, there is quite a substential number of western fantasy fiction that is popular enough to make it back to Europe and America.

It's their way of globalization. Since the Japanese culture is (or was) not very similar to Western culture because of obvious reasons, the cultural osmosis (I like to make up words) between them is not as smooth as the cultural osmosis between, say, the USA and Europe. Thus, they actually have to tailor the stuff they want to import to better fit into their culture and their ways. In recent times, though, it's kind of mixed. They have westernized themselves enough to take a lot of the stuff directly, but the "tailoring" continues in many areas as well.

Of course, all of what I've just written might be total BS as well.

[Terraoblivion]

It's their way of globalization. Since the Japanese culture is (or was) not very similar to Western culture because of obvious reasons, the cultural osmosis (I like to make up words) between them is not as smooth as the cultural osmosis between, say, the USA and Europe. Thus, they actually have to tailor the stuff they want to import to better fit into their culture and their ways.

You mean the way the US remakes European movies that happen to find some success over there? Because that's happened a lot, too. Also, not like there haven't been plenty of Americans making things inspired by European stuff and the opposite, just like there's been plenty of Europeans making stuff inspired by what Americans make.

[Cen]

sooo what has Witcher to do with with Asia? it's 100% polish. Poland is in Europe.

[Cespenar]

You mean the way the US remakes European movies that happen to find some success over there? Because that's happened a lot, too. Also, not like there haven't been plenty of Americans making things inspired by European stuff and the opposite, just like there's been plenty of Europeans making stuff inspired by what Americans make.

I agree, though I didn't say that the osmosis there was seamless, I said it was just smoother in comparison.

[kamikasei]

sooo what has Witcher to do with with Asia? it's 100% polish. Poland is in Europe.
Which is probably why Yora listed it alongside Dragon Age as an example of Western fantasy.

[MLai]

To think that the Japanese never heard of Tolkien is just ignorant. Especially now, that the movies made Lord of the Rings leave the territory of geekdom and enter popular culture.
(1) Most of your post talks about post-Lodoss. I'm asking about pre-Lodoss.
(2) Japan is a foreign land, and aside from having had American occupation, it is pretty insular for a 1st world nation. Not in big things, as they are a part of the global economy. But certainly in "niche" things.
(3) For example, it took longer than my lifetime, for Japan to finally start translating the Chinese equivalent of the Tolkien Middle Earth franchise (the works of Jin Yong/ Louis Cha). And Jin Yong/ Louis Cha's writing is 50x more accessible than Tolkien's, especially to Japan. In the meantime, the rest of Asia has been assimilating Jpnese literature/media since WW2.
(4) #3 therefore colors my impression of how Japan treats foreign media/literature. Which is why I was asking.


If the Japanese have been so completely separated from western fantasy, why are wood dwelling elves so common in stuff they make?
You're not asking me but I don't understand the context of the question can you clarify? AFAIK Japan has forests?


Also, MLai, I have to ask...what is your grudge against the As in Japanese? You never use them.
I find the word too long for something I often type repeated. So, like "ppl", I shorthand it by removing the consonants. I don't type "Jap" because that's derogatory.

[kamikasei]

Japan is a foreign land
So was America, to Tolkien.

The thing is, your questions are ones you could very easily have answered for yourself with a little research - for example, looking up Record of Lodoss War and seeing its Wikipedia entry explain that it was based on a roleplaying game campaign by its creator. When you start out with the strong assumption that, although you don't really know and haven't looked in to it, you're just sure Japan couldn't possibly have had cultural access you don't expect, it comes off as, frankly, racist or at least parochial.

[Tengu_temp]

You're not asking me but I don't understand the context of the question can you clarify? AFAIK Japan has forests?

I know it might be a riddle of the ages, but...

Where do you think Japanese media got the idea of elves from?


I find the word too long for something I often type repeated. So, like "ppl", I shorthand it by removing the consonants. I don't type "Jap" because that's derogatory.

Chat-speak is against the forum rules, you know. And thank Flying Spaghetti Monster for that.

[Terraoblivion]

(1) Most of your post talks about post-Lodoss. I'm asking about pre-Lodoss.
(2) Japan is a foreign land, and aside from having had American occupation, it is pretty insular for a 1st world nation. Not in big things, as they are a part of the global economy. But certainly in "niche" things.
(3) For example, it took longer than my lifetime, for Japan to finally start translating the Chinese equivalent of the Tolkien Middle Earth franchise (the works of Jin Yong/ Louis Cha). And Jin Yong/ Louis Cha's writing is 50x more accessible than Tolkien's, especially to Japan. In the meantime, the rest of Asia has been assimilating Jpnese literature/media since WW2.
(4) #3 therefore colors my impression of how Japan treats foreign media/literature. Which is why I was asking.

Japan is a lot less isolated than you seem to think? Popular western entertainment certainly gets over there and consistently has since the end of the American occupation. Disney is huge in Japan like everywhere else. The Japanese listened to Beatles too. They had their hippies and their greasers. They had a major Star Trek fandom in the late 60s and 70s despite having to resort to bootleg film reels. In fact the second major unified act of the American Star Trek fandom was saving money to pay for a ticket so the guy who started the Japanese one could go to the US for one of the early cons. These are just a few easy examples of the Japanese having access to western culture.

Also, I'd like to point out that Lord of the Rings is not some obscure, niche product, but is the third-best selling novel ever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books#More_than_100_million_copies) with total sales of 150 million copies with the Hobbit as the fourth-best selling at 100 million. In fact, one of the noteworthy things about its distribution is how unpopular it is in the US. Just have a look at its reception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_of_J._R._R._Tolkien), which incidentally also reveals that it was translated into Japanese around the same time as into continental European languages.

I'd also say you betray a fundamental lack of understanding of the spread of culture across the planet. Supposed cultural and linguistic similarity, not that there is much of either between Hong and Japan, or geographical proximity is hardly the primary factor in this. Instead it is a matter of which places has culture that seems desirable to others as well as the active work in promoting the export of entertainment. As the richest place on the planet the US was quite able to saturate the world with its entertainment, to the point where the desirability of American entertainment over what was approved was a major part in breeding discontent in Eastern Europe during the cold war. Being English speaking as well, the UK has to no small degree been able to ride the coat tails of this. For an example, almost all foreign entertainment movies you'll find in theaters in industrialized countries is American. The same picture applies to tv and it has been the case for decades.

Why would Japan arbitrarily avoid the entertainment of their greatest ally and the culture that set the stage for cutting edge modern culture to focus on entertainment from a place that was still the target of racism in both the west and Japan? It makes little sense unless you believe that people choose entertainment based on ethnic similarity, which raises a whole lot of questions. Like how Japanese video games could dominate the video game market among white Americans for almost a decade and still be going strong or how Bollywood movies ended up popular in East Africa.

Overall, it just seems like you assume you know everything about foreign people because you live in an expat community or something. Everything you've said about Japan shows two things. One is that you don't even have the most rudimentary knowledge of the theoretical underpinnings of cultural studies, cultural history, anthropology and sociology. The other is the history and culture of Japan. Instead you come off as a parochial expat suffering from culture shock and secluding yourself in an expat community, groups that have a long known tendency to be more culturally conservative and closed than the culture back home in an attempt to preserve their identity.

In short, if you don't know any theory of how culture works, don't know anything about the culture you're talking about and aren't willing to put in the two minutes it takes to check something on wikipedia, don't speak about what the Japanese did or did not have with such a great tone of authority. For example, there was a Japanese D&D fandom before the first translation of the system, not just that the first translation happened in 1985, which is to say before Record of the Lodoss War began release in 1986. (no-sword.jp/blog/2008/03/lets_roll.html) If someone speaks Japanese, I'm sure they can illuminate us with more details from the Japanese wikipedia page (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%80%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3%E3%8 2%BA%26%E3%83%89%E3%83%A9%E3%82%B4%E3%83%B3%E3%82% BA#.E6.97.A5.E6.9C.AC.E3.81.A7.E3.81.AE.E5.B1.95.E 9.96.8B). Incidentally, learning all this? Took me about five minutes including the actual reading and cutting back and forth between it and writing.


You're not asking me but I don't understand the context of the question can you clarify? AFAIK Japan has forests?

Like Tengu said, if they had no contact with western fantasy how would they stumble upon a concept as specific as pale humans with pointy ears who live for a very long time and live in forests? It is rather different than merely going for mysterious beings in the wilderness.



I find the word too long for something I often type repeated. So, like "ppl", I shorthand it by removing the consonants. I don't type "Jap" because that's derogatory.

Two letters that you omit maybe twice a paragraph makes that meaningful a difference to you? Especially at the cost of sounding like you're making fun of the place and its people.

[MLai]

@ Terra:
Actually, minus the empty hostility (inherited I assume from earlier threads) I learned a lot from your long post. Which is basically what I was looking for. You did assume things incorrectly from my avatar quote just so you can try to insult me. But hot air is no big, as long as the rest of the post was informative.


Like Tengu said, if they had no contact with western fantasy how would they stumble upon a concept as specific as pale humans with pointy ears who live for a very long time and live in forests?
The distinction I was asking about in my first post, was whether they learned their high fantasy genre conventions from Tolkien, AD&D, or some other source. You answered that now, so this rhetorical elf question can be dropped I suppose.

@ Tengu:
Oh? OK good warning I'll keep that in mind; wouldn't want to run afoul of another peculiar OOTS forum rule. Not that "Jpnese" is common internet speak.

@ kamikasei:
Racism is the wrong word for what you're trying to accuse me of. Yep, parochial is what you're looking for.

[Kasanip]

I can't answer every question, but I can try. But I don't know what question is asked. :smallredface:

[MLai]

@ Kasanip:
How long have you been living in Japan? Because some topics (not all) I'd like expounded on are before the release of Lodoss War.

(1) How big was Lord of the Rings in Japan, pre Jackson films? This question helps show where Japan got most of its high fantasy conventions, from Tolkien or secondarily through D&D.
Here's what Wiki says, courtesy of Terraoblivion linking:

The Hobbit appeared in a Japanese translation in 1965 (Hobitto no Boken) and The Lord of the Rings from 1972 to 1975 (Yubiwa Monogatari), both translated by Teiji Seta (1916–1979), in 1992 revised by Seta's assistant Akiko Tanaka. In 1982, Tanaka translated the Silmarillion (Sirumariru no Monogatari). Teiji Seta was an expert in classical Japanese literature and a haiku poet, and Arduini (2006) regards the Seta and Tanaka translations as "almost perfect".

Shiro No Norite ("The White Rider") is a Tokyo-based group of fans, established in 1981. But reception of Tolkien's work among the Japanese public remained rather limited until the appearance of Jackson's films, after which there was a surge of interest.

(2) Are pen-paper fantasy RPGs big in Japan? How big is AD&D in Japan, or is it limited (like say, X-box) and Japan has its own big local titles?
Through another link courtesy of Terraoblivion, I found an interesting question asked:

Any idea if Oriental Adventures was published and/or popular? One of the things I disliked about that system were its "honor points," and how it tried to smoosh the Western chivalric code onto the samurai class (although most of what I knew about it at the time came from Kurosawa movies).

This comment/question raises the interesting question of "What do Jpnese gamers do with the parts of AD&D which deal clumsily with Eastern/Jpnese culture?"

(3) How about Warhammer? Or does Japan mostly play its own tabletop wargames?

[Kasanip]

@ Kasanip:
How long have you been living in Japan? Because some topics (not all) I'd like expounded on are before the release of Lodoss War.

I am 20 years old. Probably I can't answer question about 1980 or 1970 and such. :smallredface: Sorry.



(1) How big was Lord of the Rings in Japan, pre Jackson films? This question helps show where Japan got most of its high fantasy conventions, from Tolkien or secondarily through D&D.


Sorry, I don't know. I haven't read this book. But of course it is known. I remember the movies was known when I was elementary and junior high school student. But Harry Potter became more popular. Of people today, it is through comic and novel and games to learn about fantasy. Of D&D history, it can be read on Wikipedia.



(2) Are pen-paper fantasy RPGs big in Japan? How big is AD&D in Japan, or is it limited (like say, X-box) and Japan has its own big local titles?


To say TRPG games, it isn't very popular. But it can be found with support in university and cities like Tokyo, Nagoya and Fukuoka. Recently to become more popular because internet culture and novel culture to become closer.

Of Dungeons&Dragons, I only know a little 3.5版. It can be organized at shop to make a play, or a group can be made. Some groups still play on internet and make groups.
It is much more popular the domestic recently. Most popular is ソード・ワールド Sword World. Now it is SW2.0. アリアンロッド Arianrhod is also to become popular and many other.

Sometimes adventures are written and become novels called [Replay]. Sometimes are very popular even people who don't like TRPG game. Because popular novel or game can become comic or cartoon, sometimes TRPG becomes comic and cartoon, like Lodoss or Night Wizard.




Through another link courtesy of Terraoblivion, I found an interesting question asked:


Any idea if Oriental Adventures was published and/or popular? One of the things I disliked about that system were its "honor points," and how it tried to smoosh the Western chivalric code onto the samurai class (although most of what I knew about it at the time came from Kurosawa movies).



This comment/question raises the interesting question of "What do Jpnese gamers do with the parts of AD&D which deal clumsily with Eastern/Jpnese culture?"

About オリエンタルアドベンチャーOriental Adventure is English only. But, I don't know about D&D4版.

Maybe embarrassing to say clearly. It is laughed. :smallredface: Sometime to look like bad romantic or comedy story.
But, probably reaction isn't different in reversed position. To look at this OotS forum, it can be seen joke to be made fun of Japanese mistakes too. I think it is understood because cultures are different. Of course there are mistakes.

It is excited feeling sometimes. On internet, there is always some interest to try 和風D&D. But most it is just to use [rules] and ignore [unnecessary information]. Now there are many domestic TRPG to do such a style, so only D&D fan would try such a game rule I think.




(3) How about Warhammer? Or does Japan mostly play its own tabletop wargames?

I have never played this game. But it can be found easily in shops and often in 卓上ゲーム forum. Of course history of TRPG and such is to come from [board games], so there are fans of such a game too. There are popular domestic card games I think.

[Kato]

Also, I'd like to point out that Lord of the Rings is not some obscure, niche product, but is the third-best selling novel ever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books#More_than_100_million_copies) with total sales of 150 million copies with the Hobbit as the fourth-best selling at 100 million.

Some things about that list destroyed my faith in humanity... but that's off-topic.


You know, I never realized how much Western fantasy there actually IS in Japan. I mean, yeah, many animes and other things still stick out as Japanese inspired but from playing FF I'd never thought it was a Japanese game if I wasn't aware of it. Same goes for the DQ/DW series. Though I guess the latter is a bit more Eastern-ish if you look at a few of the monsters.

tbh, I guess it really is hard to make out most P&P progression before the rise of the internet. It was - and mostly is - a very niche community and though sales and numbers of players have grown I'd say even if I were to try to find out how popular any kind of D&D was in Germany let's say... pre 1990's I'd have a hard time to find any indication of it. I'd be surprised if Japan was much different, though maybe a bit earlier.

It's still interesting how pretty much all popular fantasy settings can be traced back to Tolkien, basically, and how there seems to be so little diversity at least in the more popular franchises... Then again if a dwarf was tall and handsome and beardless he ould be no dwarf. And being tall is not that handy in caves anyway. But why are there no small elves? Er, drifting off.


To put another question... what media based on Eastern culture - or rather Eastern mythology - without any fancy additions like Dragonball or such are there?

[snoopy13a]

Also, I'd like to point out that Lord of the Rings is not some obscure, niche product, but is the third-best selling novel ever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books#More_than_100_million_copies) with total sales of 150 million copies with the Hobbit as the fourth-best selling at 100 million. In fact, one of the noteworthy things about its distribution is how unpopular it is in the US. Just have a look at its reception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_of_J._R._R._Tolkien), which incidentally also reveals that it was translated into Japanese around the same time as into continental European languages.



That doesn't necessarily mean The Lord of the Rings wasn't an obscure, niche product in Japan until the movies were released. For example, I am absolutely ignorant about Japanese literature. I'm sure that the high caliber Japanese literature has been translated into English and that, if I wanted to, I could read the translation. Still, the most popular Japanese literature is likely, at best, an obscure, niche product in the United States. So, it wouldn't be too ridiculous that the most popular British novel of the last one hundred years could be obscure in Japan.

Of course, I am an American and we're a little parochial :smallsmile: . Obviously, Britain influences our culture greatly, but when it comes to the literary canon, we only generally only accept the "best of the best" from non-English speaking countries--and in that, only translations because we usually don't bother learn other languages (again the parochialism :smallsmile: ).

It is also interesting that America usually adopts other cultures' influences indirectly (the two main exceptions are Britian and, to lesser extent for geeky-pop culture, Japan). For example, many of our recent horror movies are remakes of Japanese horror films. Still, we don't play the Japanese film and add subtitles or dubbing. Instead, we take the foreign film as inspiration and re-make it so it fits within our culture. We've been doing this for years, as can be seen from The Magnficient Seven and Star Wars. Same with our passion for reality TV--which were orignally popular in Scandinavia. We didn't watch the European reality TV; we just copied their format.

As for Western Fantasy from Asia, I think the generic Western "story-book" Middle Ages setting (knights, princesses, etc.) can be somewhat fascinating to an non-Westerner so it can serve as an exotic fanasty template.

[Fri]

To put another question... what media based on Eastern culture - or rather Eastern mythology - without any fancy additions like Dragonball or such are there?

So many that I can't even start to describe, that you might need to specifiy this better, Kato. Do you know how many straight journey to the west adaptation are there? And ramayana or mahabharata adaptation in indian film or serial? It's like asking 'how many straight-out cowboy movies are out there.'

I personally watched at least three different hongkong/chinese journey to the west live action serial as a kid. Man, that brings back memories.

[RPGuru1331]

To put another question... what media based on Eastern culture - or rather Eastern mythology - without any fancy additions like Dragonball or such are there?
There are at least 25 video games based on the Romance of the Three Kingdoms from one single company; there are at least 6 movies/mini-series and two video games of the Battle of Chibi alone. The Romance, although dolled up to look like history, diverges sufficiently from reality to be fairly called a myth. You're asking about how much media has been produced by numerous countries of many, many cultures that could be said to be based on their own mythology... the answer can only be said to be 'a lot'. It's certainly true that western cultures, particularly those the US considers important, have more truck in the west than vice versa, for at least 3 major reasons I can think of, but seriously now...

[MLai]

Same with our passion for reality TV--which were orignally popular in Scandinavia. We didn't watch the European reality TV; we just copied their format.
HUH. I guess I learn something new again in this thread. I always thought reality TV came out of Japan LOL. I remember years before Survivor appeared in the US, I was surfing thru some Jpnese reality TV shows on Satellite and thinking what weird offbeat tastes they had in television.


As for Western Fantasy from Asia, I think the generic Western "story-book" Middle Ages setting (knights, princesses, etc.) can be somewhat fascinating to an non-Westerner so it can serve as an exotic fanasty template.
Tolkien may have been obscure in Asia, but literature like Greek mythology, Norse mythology, and King Arthur were anything but obscure.
And ofc, if USA makes a movie about something, it makes inroads for related products to follow. For example, Conan movie followed by He-man toys. No, I can't prove that correlation.


Do you know how many straight journey to the west adaptation are there? And ramayana or mahabharata adaptation in indian film or serial?
I wonder how widespread Journey To The West was, in Japan.
*Looks at Dragonball.* Wait, lol no I didn't ask that.

Anyways, I believe what is being said is that yes, there are tons of straight mythology adaptations in Jpnese media and other Eastern countries. Westerners just don't ever see any/much of it because it's not what's being brought over. It's stuff that's palatable/accessible for Westerners that is brought over. Add to that, straight myth adaptations are often catered to young children so it's filtered out even more from the Western market.

[Kato]

Okay then, I guess my interests are much less wide spread than I thought. I can't recall the last time I saw an anime or anime movie that was solely based on Eastern - or let's say Japanese mythology. Neither for video games but I guess I'm even less knowledgeable when it comes to them. Maybe the problem is they are less well known outside of Japan because not everyone sits down to translate them... Or I'm just missing a hell lot of stuff :smallredface:

[Prime32]

Okay then, I guess my interests are much less wide spread than I thought. I can't recall the last time I saw an anime or anime movie that was solely based on Eastern - or let's say Japanese mythology. Neither for video games but I guess I'm even less knowledgeable when it comes to them. Maybe the problem is they are less well known outside of Japan because not everyone sits down to translate them... Or I'm just missing a hell lot of stuff :smallredface:If you count urban fantasy then there's way, way more.

Plus a lot of cultural references tend to get removed in translation. Eg. Yu Yu Hakusho had the characters crossing the River Sanzu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanzu_River) and entering Yomi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yomi) to meet King Enma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama_(Buddhism_and_Chinese_mythology)). In the dub, they crossed the River Styx and entered the Underworld to meet Hades.
(I haven't watched Yu Yu Hakusho, this may be inaccurate)

[Terraoblivion]

I'd say that the most likely reason you don't see much entertainment that's based on Japanese mythology is that you don't know much Japanese mythology and that relatively little entertainment is straight retellings of myth. How many straight retellings of the Odyssey do you commonly see or of the story where Thor poses as Freya to steal Mjolnir back? Not a whole lot, I imagine. However, stories where these things are referred to in some way are quite common, but unless you actually know the mythology in question you're not likely to really notice or realize that it is based on said mythology.

Also, let's see other things that are based on Japanese mythology to add examples. There are roughly a million versions of Journey to the West from all East Asian countries, probably far more than of any other mythological or religious story not from the Bible, of course. Digging a bit deeper, Okami is a crazy world of Japanese mythology with everything from the guy who stays in the dragon's palace under the sea to Konohana Sakuya hanging out, while you play as Amaterasu. Touhou is of course fueled by weird takes on Japanese mythology and folklore with Kaguya-hime as a major character, who hangs out with a woman based on Omoikane and the final boss of one of the games being the raven that ate the Yategarasu. Both are quite modern, pulpy and playful takes on the mythology, but the basis is clear. Persona 4 is heavily based on the story of Izanagi and Izanami and lacks the joking around about it that Okami and Touhou has. In a more obscure sense, a lot of folkloric beings from all of east and southeast Asia have entered the standard list of monsters in video games. The four beasts of the directions and Garuda spring to mind.

These are just a few quick ideas that spring to mind and haven't been mentioned before, I didn't really put much effort into tracking them down. So really, I think that your lack of seeing stories based on Japanese mythology, or for that matter Chinese, mostly comes down to you lacking the knowledge of non-western myths to recognize them when they come up.

[Kasanip]

Actually, I came to this thread because title was question for me.:smallredface:

What is [Western Fantasy]? To be honest, I thought meaning was like [Western Movie] with cowboy and horse. I know Genre is [Fantasy] genre.

Of course some ideas are used, but it isn't only just a thing. For example, [plate armor] and such is not normal of [Middle Age]. Of course Magic is not the same. Style of Fantasy is different in west too, I think. To explain, Disney and Tolkien are different. But always it is very international meaning. [Fantasy].

Because I wasn't born, situation cannot be understood by me. But it has been told sometimes 1980s was a good time.

Because it is rise of computer game like Nintendo be available easily and developed in native language, there is a lot of support of TRPG story at this time, to be interesting for young people. Of this time of 1980-1990, it can be seen many of such a thing. In books, it is Lodoss Companion, and Slayers, Arusuran senki, Juunikokuki, and replay stories in magazine, to become published.
Of fantasy cartoon, it is like Seisenshi Danbain and Mahou Shoujo cartoons. Of comics, of course there are many comics. How many famous works of comic and cartoon of Miyazaki Hayao can be seen of this time, too.
And of games it can be seen many famous games: [The Legend of Zelda], Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Fire emblem, Megamitensei, Phantasy Star.
All of these games are style of [RPG] game.

But not only the Fantasy. I think also it is time of [Science Fiction] and other styles.

Why at such a time? I think it is because a little, it is domestic economy of this time is very strong. Also, probably it is because [What becomes popular in America will become so in Japan too.] is like a proverb.

I wonder how American and European fantasy has changed in such a time? I think it was asked by Yora this feeling. I don't know the answer. In western novel or games, isn't there influence of Japan? I always thought meaning of [Fantasy] is very international feeling. I never heard [Western Fantasy] divide until this thread.

In time to play on OotS board, to have played [mecha sky pirate] or [bleachitp] or such a game. Or to see question about [Oriental Adventures], or a thread about [planning Japanese magic for TRPG], or such a name like [Tengu_Temp] and such. To see such an Anime thread, probably there is many influence also. I have seen player likes [fox] character or of novel character avatar or song. Even of OotS style, it has been said there are [samurai] characters. And of course of movies, even Hollywood it has been heard of [The Last Samurai] and such.

To search internet, I saw one interesting idea, to suggest [domestic rpg is to fit young audience, but in foreign countries to become focused of adult and return to European [Realism] style.]


To put another question... what media based on Eastern culture - or rather Eastern mythology - without any fancy additions like Dragonball or such are there?

Maybe [Fantasy] is different meaning I think. If it must be said, isn't fantasy to use mythology and legends to help to make a story?

So, it isn't fair question to ask [what media based on Eastern culture - or rather Eastern mythology - without any fancy additions like Dragonball or such are there?]
If it is [only Mythology] or [only Legend], then it isn't [Fantasy].

[Prime32]

Actually, I came to this thread because title was question for me.:smallredface:

What is [Western Fantasy]? To be honest, I thought meaning was like [Western Movie] with cowboy and horse. I know Genre is [Fantasy] genre.I'm pretty sure "Medieval European Fantasy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MedievalEuropeanFantasy)" would be the correct term.


Of course some ideas are used, but it isn't only just a thing. For example, [plate armor] and such is not normal of [Middle Age]. Of course Magic is not the same.Plate armor shows up mainly because most people don't know history. :smalltongue: One common mistake is for people to think that guns were invented to defeat plate armor, when the opposite was true.
Magic shows up because it's cool.


I wonder how American and European fantasy has changed in such a time? I think it was asked by Yora this feeling. I don't know the answer. In western novel or games, isn't there influence of Japan? I always thought meaning of [Fantasy] is very international feeling. I never heard [Western Fantasy] divide until this thread.

In time to play on OotS board, to have played [mecha sky pirate] or [bleachitp] or such a game. Or to see question about [Oriental Adventures], or a thread about [planning Japanese magic for TRPG], or such a name like [Tengu_Temp] and such. To see such an Anime thread, probably there is many influence also. I have seen player likes [fox] character or of novel character avatar or song. Even of OotS style, it has been said there are [samurai] characters. And of course of movies, even Hollywood it has been heard of [The Last Samurai] and such.There's a divide. Some people enjoy Eastern influences and others hate them. There are D&D 3.5 players who ban the Tome of Battle supplement (fighters have multiple techniques and stances, rather than using the same attack every time) because that's "too anime" and doesn't fit the tone. (:smallconfused:)

[Kato]

[snip]
Well, I'm aware of a lot of references (probably not all but a few) but I'm really referring to straight mythology settings. There are enough that borrow mostly from or are straight adaptions of "Western fantasy" but the closest to the thing I'm thinking of is Inu Yasha and that's.. kind of far off, sill.
Admittedly, wikipedia has e.g. quite a long list of JttW adaptations but a) I'm aware of about 5% of them, and b) Eastern mythology can't be solely JttW. There must be other things to it, lots of myths and stuff to make things from it. Where are the kitsunes, and other demons, mikos, buddhist gods etc?I guess my main interest lies in video games and anime but at least when it comes to that even then we get much more based on Western Fantasy than Eastern Fantasy/mythology. Or that's my impression at least.



Plate armor shows up mainly because most people don't know history. :smalltongue: One common mistake is for people to think that guns were invented to defeat plate armor, when the opposite was true.

Hu? Wasn't plate invented way earlier to counter arrows and such projectiles? I don't know how well they fare against guns but I guess against a musket they'd not be entirely useless...



Maybe [Fantasy] is different meaning I think. If it must be said, isn't fantasy to use mythology and legends to help to make a story?

So, it isn't fair question to ask [what media based on Eastern culture - or rather Eastern mythology - without any fancy additions like Dragonball or such are there?]
If it is [only Mythology] or [only Legend], then it isn't [Fantasy].
Well, I guess the definition of Fantasy and Mythology can vary quite a bit... but since "Western Fantasy" is mostly defined by great sagas such as these of King Arthur and Merlin (etc) or in Germany the Nibelungenlied/Song of the Nibelungs and these are pretty much what a lot of Tolkien and from there current Fantasy was based upon... it's kind of a straight line.
I'm really not that knowledgeable about Eastern mythology development but from what I know it seems there is a lot to it that rarely shows up or if so only strongly changed or as slight references in more recent works. Again, maybe I'm missing out on a lot of things but I have a hard time even defining something I'd call "Eastern/Japanese Fantasy" compared to "Eastern/Japanese mythology".

[MLai]

I wonder how American and European fantasy has changed in such a time? In western novel or games, isn't there influence of Japan?
There is. Prime32 began talking about it. Here's my informal take...

Pre-Lodoss and JRPGs, popular Medieval European Fantasy was strictly Western in design principles, borrowing mostly from Tolkien, King Arthur, and sword-and-sandal pulp, etc. So heroes were burly adult men clad in Conan leather or plate armor, and heroines were oiled adult women in leather/metal bikinis. Nothing like what you'd find today in Diablo III.

Then came Lodoss and JRPGs. Westerners began to absorb the Japanese aesthetic: younger heroes, hair gel, huge weapons, improbable armor, gravity-defying shoulderpads, frilly bits, and hints of modern fashion.

Beyond aesthetics, there's also the cultural myth of superhuman martial prowess. Why do Easterners embrace the idea of fighters who can slice a tree into perfect halves, while Westerners started out with tons of rules for magic but assume fighters just hack and hack, and still think having "stances and techniques are too anime"?

Pre-Industrial Europe had numerous weapons arts just as deadly, complex, and elegant as anything Eastern. But due to historical trends, the East retained their awareness and awe for cold-weapons arts while the West left theirs behind them with the advent of gunpowder. Eventually this became the divide in the cultural consciousness regarding martial arts, both the realistic and the mythical. I found Reclaiming The Blade to be a good introductory documentary on this subject.

But, that perception has been changing! Eastern influence in MEF? Witness Legolas shield-surfing down a staircase while rapid-firing arrows into orc heads. :smallamused:

[tensai_oni]

That is so factually inaccurate. The iconic white haired prettyboy anti-hero, Elric of Melnibone, was made in the 60s. Wizard of Earthsea; Memory, Sorrow and Thorn - these and many others are so different from your standard burly sword-wielding heroes, who think they are inspired by Conan but are actually inspired by Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.

And to think anime aesthetics came into western fantasy because of Lodoss is likewise inaccurate. Just because it was first in Japan doesn't mean it was the first fantasy anime the US and Europe came across... not to mention, anime aesthetics started to pop up in western culture not because of fantasy anime, but due to anime and manga in general.


Beyond aesthetics, there's also the cultural myth of superhuman martial prowess. Why do Easterners embrace the idea of fighters who can slice a tree into perfect halves, while Westerners started out with tons of rules for magic but assume fighters just hack and hack, and still think having "stances and techniques are too anime"?

That's not fantasy as a whole, just old school DnD fans who hate Tome of Battle. Seriously. Perfect technique and feats of superhuman strength is something that has been ingrained not only into fantasy, but into what it stems from - mythology since pretty much forever. Do names like Heracles or Odysseus say anything to you?


But, that perception has been changing! Eastern influence in MEF? Witness Legolas shield-surfing down a staircase while rapid-firing arrows into orc heads.

That's not Eastern influence, that's just bad writing.

[snoopy13a]

Beyond aesthetics, there's also the cultural myth of superhuman martial prowess. Why do Easterners embrace the idea of fighters who can slice a tree into perfect halves, while Westerners started out with tons of rules for magic but assume fighters just hack and hack, and still think having "stances and techniques are too anime"?



I think, originially, the wargamers who first created games like D&D assumed that the various techniques of the weapons were incorporated in the dice rolls. For example, a character who is carrying a rapier is assumed to know the sword techniques that modern fencers know and, when in combat, to utilize them. The player need not concern herself with the details; she just has to roll the "to-hit."

So, the actual character isn't "hacking" but rather fighting based on skills learned from years of training. However, for simplicity's sake, we don't worry about those details.

[Eldan]

Pretty much what Snoopy said. I'm reasonably sure I have seen the combat round described, several times, as several slashes, parries, stabs, lunges and so on, which are all just represented in one attack roll which determines if you deal any damage.

The question in D&D is, I think, not if your fighter knows about stances, footwork and technique, but how they should be represented in the rules.Your fighter may be doing his perfect seven-strike combat maneuver anyway, but some prefer rolling 1d20 for that and just seeing if he is successful, others want to have a list of tome of battle maneuvers and select the one they want their fighter to be using, for 3d6 bonus damage.

[Mando Knight]

That's not fantasy as a whole, just old school DnD fans who hate Tome of Battle. Seriously. Perfect technique and feats of superhuman strength is something that has been ingrained not only into fantasy, but into what it stems from - mythology since pretty much forever. Do names like Heracles or Odysseus say anything to you?

Or Beowulf, or Arthur and his Round Table, or the trope-naming Paladins of Charlemagne, or Gilgamesh...

I have never played this game. But it can be found easily in shops and often in 卓上ゲーム forum. Of course history of TRPG and such is to come from [board games], so there are fans of such a game too. There are popular domestic card games I think.
Ooh, how about a different one... how well-known is BattleTech in Japan? I know that its creators had contacted the creators of Macross for permission to use the designs (but, silly them, not the license holders in America)... it's basically feudal Europe... In SPACE! With GIANT ROBOTS!

Tangentially, another Japanese property that draws mostly from European rather than Eastern mythos is Fire Emblem. I'm a little surprised that it's not as popular in the West.

[Terraoblivion]

Beyond aesthetics, there's also the cultural myth of superhuman martial prowess. Why do Easterners embrace the idea of fighters who can slice a tree into perfect halves, while Westerners started out with tons of rules for magic but assume fighters just hack and hack, and still think having "stances and techniques are too anime"?

Exactly. Like this quote from mysterious Asian mythology!


The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat... The hair of his head twisted like the tange of a red thornbush stuck in a gap; if a royal apple tree with all its kingly fruit were shaken above him, scarce an apple would reach the ground but each would be spiked on a bristle of his hair as it stood up on his scalp with rage.

I mean, where else can you think of when somebody says Asia than Ireland? Quote courtesy of wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn#The_Cattle_Raid_of_Cooley).

Oh, and lets not forget about such superpowered beings as cast of Chronicles of Amber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicles_of_Amber), Elric of Melnibone that the oni already mentioned and all the ancient elves, dwarfs and numenorians in basically everything Tolkien made. Who would have known that all these were Asian? Or, you know, it exists in the west too and you're just too caught up in what you "know" about cultural contrasts to bother checking if it is true.


Well, I'm aware of a lot of references (probably not all but a few) but I'm really referring to straight mythology settings. There are enough that borrow mostly from or are straight adaptions of "Western fantasy" but the closest to the thing I'm thinking of is Inu Yasha and that's.. kind of far off, sill.
Admittedly, wikipedia has e.g. quite a long list of JttW adaptations but a) I'm aware of about 5% of them, and b) Eastern mythology can't be solely JttW. There must be other things to it, lots of myths and stuff to make things from it. Where are the kitsunes, and other demons, mikos, buddhist gods etc?I guess my main interest lies in video games and anime but at least when it comes to that even then we get much more based on Western Fantasy than Eastern Fantasy/mythology. Or that's my impression at least.

I'm sorry, but this basically makes no sense whatsoever. The entire premise seems to be the utterly absurd notion that typical medieval, European fantasy has anything to do with medieval Europe and European mythology and that it is weird that Japanese people don't do the same. For that to be remotely accurate, European fantasy actually had to do, which it's, you know, very rarely. The Christian themes of Chronicles of Narnia and the inspiration of Germanic mythology in the works of Tolkien are about the high points of direct inspiration you'll find in the genre and those are still mostly on the thematic level. Similar things can be found in Japanese entertainment, such as the Buddhist themes of the ending of PMMM or the Shinto inspirations in like half of Miyazaki's works. Actual, straight up repetition of actual myths is pretty rare in both Asian and European entertainment, probably because what is there to add if you just repeat the myths?

Also, where the hell have you been looking to find no youkai, especially the ever-popular kitsune, mikos or Bishamonten in Japanese entertainment. Freaking Naruto has a kitsune as a major element of the plot and the tanuki suit is one of the most well-known ones in SMB3. Just look at the number of examples of the kitsune alone that the rather erratic tvtropes can present. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Kitsune) Finding examples of mikos (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Miko) isn't exactly hard either and I can add further examples such as the miko who owns the canine warriors in Okami and Tsumugi from The Miko's Words and the Witch's Incantations. Really, it kinda sounds like it's not something you've really researched, but just going by what you happen to stumble on.

[Brother Oni]

That's not Eastern influence, that's just bad writing.

I'd argue that it is due to Eastern influences, just wuxia and HK action movies, rather than Japanese.

[Yora]

That's not fantasy as a whole, just old school DnD fans who hate Tome of Battle. Seriously. Perfect technique and feats of superhuman strength is something that has been ingrained not only into fantasy, but into what it stems from - mythology since pretty much forever. Do names like Heracles or Odysseus say anything to you?
I think it's actually that there are a lot of people who are interested in how western weapons and armor actually work and what they can and can't do. When characters become "superhuman", all those details become pointless. And when your interest actually lies in these very details, then spending time on such stories and games becomes pointless.

You could have a completely european game with Herakles, Beowulf, and that Gaelic guy, and these people wouldn't want to play it either.
And I'm sure there's actually also a lot of people in Japan who really care only for stories with human-level heroes.

[Kato]

I'm sorry, but this basically makes no sense whatsoever. The entire premise seems to be the utterly absurd notion that typical medieval, European fantasy has anything to do with medieval Europe and European mythology and that it is weird that Japanese people don't do the same.

I'm not sure if you are misinterpreting what I'm saying on purpose or...
Okay, look at things like ASOAIF. Paolini's works. The Riftwar cycle (though that's not as straight an example). Yeah, they are not set in Middle earth but they are clearly placed in something based upon medieval Europe (plus the magic and dragons and stuff) And there are like... I guess a dozen adaptations of Merlin/King Arthur, probably only in this century. Sure it gets repetitive but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
Admittedly, I don't know half the shows on the lists neither am I motivated to look through all of them but with every second if I start reading the description there pops up 'high school student', 'junior high', 'sci fi'. That's not... that's not basic mythology. There were no high schools in medieval Japan as far as I know. My point is, there seems to be a distinct lag of shows set in a "Eastern fantasy/mythology" based setting without high schools, aliens, magic computers, etc. As I said, I' can obviously not be aware of every anime or media there is but to me it seems like there is just a vast superiority of mythology mixed with modern themes as opposed to the high amount of straight up Western fantasy settings.
I hope I made myself more clear now. Sorry for any misunderstandings.

[Prime32]

My point is, there seems to be a distinct lag of shows set in a "Eastern fantasy/mythology" based setting without high schools, aliens, magic computers, etc. As I said, I' can obviously not be aware of every anime or media there is but to me it seems like there is just a vast superiority of mythology mixed with modern themes as opposed to the high amount of straight up Western fantasy settings.*cough* (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wuxia) .

[Terraoblivion]

ASOIAF is the only of those things remotely based on the actual middle ages and even that ignores large amounts of central medieval institutions and beliefs, while adding quite a few new ones. It also perpetuates a number of absurd myths about the period created in later times, like literacy being a rare skill possessed by a scholarly elite and meat only being eaten by the rich.

The rest are vaguely based on bits of medieval imagery as has been repurposed and regurgitated in European literature for two centuries and have very little in common with any part of Europe at any point between the fall of Rome and the reformation. They're no more based on the middle ages than Suikoden is based on the Song Dynasty of China. There's some imagery and some ideological concepts and terms, but mostly it's just window dressing in a thoroughly modern story written by people's with limited knowledge of the middle ages and no real desire to write anything resembling historical fiction. I have absolutely no trouble with that, I'm not a fanatic lover of historical fiction or incapable of appreciating things that deviate from reality, but it's not really reasonable to call them representation of the middle ages.

Just to give a few examples of typical medieval imagery they're lacking: Succession being an irrational mess that tended to lead to civil wars and dragging some obscure German or Polish count in to take the throne. Strange divisions of power between secular and religious regimes and the uncertain boundaries between the two. Kingdoms lacking the function of modern nations with laws being local and based on custom rather than royal authority. A very real lack of a unified government with a bureaucracy and subordinate branches. I could find more examples, but then I'd have to sit down and actually read these books and to be frank, I'd rather get a root canal than read Paolini or Feist.

Basically, I'm not misinterpreting your argument, you're misinterpreting reality and making an argument on a faulty basis. It has no bearing on the quality of the books, but you're looking for something in Asia to be an equivalent of something European that barely even exists, then gets baffled by it being rare.

[Yora]

My point is, there seems to be a distinct lag of shows set in a "Eastern fantasy/mythology" based setting without high schools, aliens, magic computers, etc. As I said, I' can obviously not be aware of every anime or media there is but to me it seems like there is just a vast superiority of mythology mixed with modern themes as opposed to the high amount of straight up Western fantasy settings.
I blame the very lose use of the term "fantasy", which gets stamped on everything that includes the supernatural and I agree that manga and anime probably suffer this the worst.

That said, there's Princess Mononoke.
And from what I figured out, InuYasha is a very basic time travel plot that in regard to the setting is a straight as Narnia, Conan, or Neverending Story. There's a few chapters where spirits show up in the future for a few hours, but mostly it's all the mystical past with a reincarnated soul who doesn't remember anything about its past life.
Naruto also has a self-contained world without high tech stuff, I think.
Maybe Seirei no Moribito. I havn't seen it yet, but I think that one could actually be more "historical fiction" than "fantasy".
Same thing for Ninja Scroll.

And then I also run out of examples. Regarding "high fantasy", everything else would be "Western fantasy made in Japan", though that'd be quite a long list.

[Eldan]

Naruto also has a self-contained world without high tech stuff, I think.
.

Naruto technology is strange. Or at least, it was when I last read it a few years ago. On the hand hand, it's its own world, disconnected from hours. But then you have what seem to be medieval peasants, feudal lords and weaponry right along modern looking buildings and, from time to time, single pieces of modern equipment like security cameras or wireless communication headsets.

[Prime32]

Naruto technology is strange. Or at least, it was when I last read it a few years ago. On the hand hand, it's its own world, disconnected from hours. But then you have what seem to be medieval peasants, feudal lords and weaponry right along modern looking buildings and, from time to time, single pieces of modern equipment like security cameras or wireless communication headsets.Basically, the Narutoverse is just as technologically advanced as ours, but doesn't have mass production. So they have cool toys, but they're extremely expensive and can only be constructed by elite craftsmen. Whenever they use electrical equipment they need to wheel out a generator from storage, since they have no power grid.

[Brother Oni]

My point is, there seems to be a distinct lag of shows set in a "Eastern fantasy/mythology" based setting without high schools, aliens, magic computers, etc.

It seems to me that you hasn't been exposed to the various games/anime that actually do follow the straight up fantasy version, probably because they tend to be niche and/or not make it outside of Japan.

Off the top of my head and missing out the ones already mentioned:
Muramasa: The Demon Blade (or almost any other Vanillaware game)
Tenchu series (more realistic, but still very fantasy based)
Onimusha series (the earlier instalments at least)
Mahojin Guru Guru (anime parody of the Dragon Quest games)
The Chanbara genre (period dramas) when they delve into the supernatural

However if you want proper Eastern flavour mythology/supernatural/fantasy stuff, you have to look at Hong Kong cinema, which falls outside the remit of your argument.


*cough* (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wuxia) .

Yeargh, yes and no.

There are tons of wuxia and other fantasy stories that fit the description, but they're nearly all HK movies.
Japanese live action movies trying to mimic the genre tend not to be that good and hence aren't very popular.

[Kato]

[...]
Basically, I'm not misinterpreting your argument, you're misinterpreting reality and making an argument on a faulty basis. It has no bearing on the quality of the books, but you're looking for something in Asia to be an equivalent of something European that barely even exists, then gets baffled by it being rare.
Maybe it's just me but I really feel like you feel offended for no reason I can see. Or I' feeling attacked for no reason...

Yes, you are misinterpreting my argument. You kept directing me towards shows which use mythology elements in settings that are set in the present or the future. And now you claim my argument is faulty because shows that are rather distinctly set in what one would call "Western fantasy" because they don't deal with themes that actually happened in the middle ages what wasn't my point at all. On purpose or not, you seem to be missing what I'm aiming for just to tell me how wrong I am.
Maybe I am baffled by something being rare but then why is it so rare (which is kind of my whole point) and why do Japanese media use western fantasy instead so often instead of Eastern in that specific way?


I blame the very lose use of the term "fantasy", which gets stamped on everything that includes the supernatural and I agree that manga and anime probably suffer this the worst.
Agreed, that's probably a major reason... I guess same would go for SciFi, or at least some instances. Genre definitions tend to be blurry at some points.



That said, there's Princess Mononoke.
And from what I figured out, InuYasha is a very basic time travel plot that in regard to the setting is a straight as Narnia, Conan, or Neverending Story. There's a few chapters where spirits show up in the future for a few hours, but mostly it's all the mystical past with a reincarnated soul who doesn't remember anything about its past life.
Naruto also has a self-contained world without high tech stuff, I think.
Maybe Seirei no Moribito. I havn't seen it yet, but I think that one could actually be more "historical fiction" than "fantasy".
Same thing for Ninja Scroll.
Princess Mononoke is a good example of what I was thinking about, forgot that one. As I said, Inu Yasha is close if it wasn't for the high school girl/future parts. Naruto otherwise is really not what I was going for. Yeah, they have ninjas and some references to mythology (like the Sennin) but then the settings is much too modern-ish and again we got (ninja) high school...
I can't comment on the last one... I can't get a good impression from the wikipedia pages about what exactly they are but I guess they might fit.
[/QUOTE]



[...]

That seems to be a good list of what I was referring to from what a quick search seems to tell me. I guess I just missed out on a bunch of stuff. :smallsmile:

[Kasanip]

Sorry, I became confused of the question and discussion. I don't know about China or other country very much, so I will try answer questions about Japan. :smallredface:

It seems question is [does Japan use mythology for making fantasy stories?]

An easy answer: Yes. It is very normal. :smallredface:

Actually, if it is read properly, I am curious about this line:

I blame the very lose use of the term "fantasy", which gets stamped on everything that includes the supernatural and I agree that manga and anime probably suffer this the worst.

I am curious about this. Of course [Fantasy] genre's contents is of [supernatural] and [magic]. But it seems to suggest such a genre makes comics and cartoons to become suffering? But it is proper genre for these stories.

Maybe it is still difference of thought about [Fantasy]. Of course there is such a thing like [High Fantasy] and [Low Fantasy]. But these are [sub-genre].

To consider, I think it is more often to see [Heroic Fantasy] style in Japan. How is it in America and Europe? :smallredface:

Another question is Kato's questions about [Japanese style Fantasy] (和風ファンタジー). Because it is curious, to write some example. Only to list some famous novel and comics. Of course there are more.

If there is interest, please read! :smallredface:

Some novels:


蜘蛛の糸 Kumo no ito (Akutagawa Ryuunosuke)

Stories of Uehashi Nahoko:
獣の奏者 kemono no souja
守人 moribito series
狐笛のかなた koteki no kanata

Stories of Ogiwara Noriko:
空色勾玉 Sorairo magatama (Magatama series)
風神秘抄 Fujin hishou
RDG (Red data girl)

Stories of Ono Fuyumi:
十二国記 Juunikokuki series
魔性の子 Majou no ko

黄金の王　白銀の王 Kogane no ou shirogane no ou (Sawamura Rin)

舞姫恋風伝 Maihime Koikazeden (Miyama Kunoe)

地と潮の王 chi to shio no ou (Sueyoshi Akiko)
水のしろたえ Mizu no shirotae (Sueyoshi Akiko)

刀語 Katanagatari (Nishio Ishin)

Stories of Enoki Yoko:
ヴェルアンの書 Wielen no sho
龍と魔法使い Ryuu to mahoutsukai series



Some comics:

九十九の満月 Tsukumonomangetsu
カムイ伝 Kamuiden
犬夜叉 Inuyasha
御伽草子 Otogizoshi
暁のヨナ Akatsuki no Yona
ヴァーリアの花婿 Vaglia no Hanamuko
女王の花 Joou no hana
夏目友人帳 Natsume yuujinchou
蟲師 Mushishi
二の姫の物語 Ni no hime no monogatari
ﾊｲｶﾞｸﾗ Haigakura
曇天に笑う donten ni warau
戦国妖狐 Sengoku youko
彩雲国物語 saiunkoku monogatari series
るろうに剣心 -明治剣客浪漫譚- Rurouni kenshin meijikenkakuromantan
少年陰陽師 Shounen onmyouji
黎明のアルカナ Reimei no arukana (DAWN of the ARCANA)
バジリスク 〜甲賀忍法帖〜 Basilisk ~koga ninpou chou~
赤髪の白雪姫 Akagami no shirayukihime
あまつき Amatsuki



However, maybe Kato is more interested in mythology than interested in fantasy?


Or Beowulf, or Arthur and his Round Table, or the trope-naming Paladins of Charlemagne, or Gilgamesh...

Ooh, how about a different one... how well-known is BattleTech in Japan? I know that its creators had contacted the creators of Macross for permission to use the designs (but, silly them, not the license holders in America)... it's basically feudal Europe... In SPACE! With GIANT ROBOTS!

Sorry it is first time for me to hear this name.:smallredface: To read wikipedia article, it seems it also has trouble and confusion. Is it an original, or is it a plagiarism? I don't now.


Tangentially, another Japanese property that draws mostly from European rather than Eastern mythos is Fire Emblem. I'm a little surprised that it's not as popular in the West.

Yes, I think so too. In a before comment, this game also to come from 1980 age.

[Knaight]

Naruto also has a self-contained world without high tech stuff, I think.
Maybe Seirei no Moribito. I havn't seen it yet, but I think that one could actually be more "historical fiction" than "fantasy".
It's fantasy. It takes place in a fantasy universe where the moon is actually the sun of another world, one of the main characters has a denizen of said other world living inside of them, and overtly magical things do happen from time to time. As such, it is a perfect example of a fantasy setting with absolutely no connections to the modern world.

With that said - I don't know where the impression that shows of some sort that are set cleanly in historical or pseudo-historical eastern* settings don't exist comes from. There are several film makers famous even in the west* that have careers that practically consist of these. Not the least of them is Kurosawa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_creative_works_by_Akira_Kurosawa), whom I can safely assume is familiar to almost everyone in this thread. This is without even getting into Chinese works. Journey to the West and Romance of the Three Kingdoms could both be classified as fantasy today, though it is hardly the best classification. These aren't exactly unknown texts - Romance of the Three Kingdoms in particular has probably inspired several times as many derivative works as all of Arthurian Myth, let alone Tolkienian fantasy.

*I'm not getting into criticism the whole concept of The West and The East here, but I do want to note that it is to a large extent specious in the extreme with most definitions of The West and The East.

[Eldan]

Question: would you call Spice and Wolf Eastern or Western? The setting seems very European middle ages or Renaissance to me, but then one of the main characters is an animal spirit/local god shapeshifting into the shape of a human woman with a tail and ears.

[MLai]

@Tensai Oni:

The iconic white haired prettyboy anti-hero, Elric of Melnibone, was made in the 60s. Wizard of Earthsea; Memory, Sorrow and Thorn - these and many others are so different from your standard burly sword-wielding heroes,
Elric's bishounen look is the exception not the rule for a warrior.
Wizard of Earthsea... it's a novel and it's a magic user, so... what exactly does that have to do with what I said? You'll note I was specifically talking about visual representations of warriors, armor, etc.


who think they are inspired by Conan but are actually inspired by Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.
That's nice... but I used Conan as a quick example... so if it's Fafhrd and Gray Mouser (yes I know who they are and what they're often drawn like) that's just as fine with me.


And to think anime aesthetics came into western fantasy because of Lodoss is likewise inaccurate. Just because it was first in Japan doesn't mean it was the first fantasy anime the US and Europe came across... not to mention, anime aesthetics started to pop up in western culture not because of fantasy anime, but due to anime and manga in general.
Wait... just because it's the first big fantasy anime in Japan doesn't mean it was the first big fantasy anime the US/Europe came across? What?
And yes, I agree things like younger warrior heroes with fancy hair are due to anime/manga in general. But specifically, what about the armour designs then?


mythology since pretty much forever. Do names like Heracles or Odysseus say anything to you?
I've read the myths. And while they are renowned heroes and warriors, their actual fighting techniques are never elaborated on paper (same goes for Gilgamesh and King Arthur, since I've actually read them... although for King Arthur it may be just clumsy writing because Malory does delight in describing combat). This is very different from Eastern accounts of warrior heroes (Miamoto Musashi's life, for example), and that is what I'm specifically talking about.
However, Greek mythology (and Gilgamesh, and King Arthur...) is actually irrelevant here, because I was talking about Europe's martial arts falling into obscurity with the advent of gunpowder.

I don't mind being disproved; my post was an idle theory and I invite new information. But please read my post first before setting about on the disproving.

@ Snoopy:

I think, originially, the wargamers who first created games like D&D assumed that the various techniques of the weapons were incorporated in the dice rolls. For example, a character who is carrying a rapier is assumed to know the sword techniques that modern fencers know and, when in combat, to utilize them. The player need not concern herself with the details; she just has to roll the "to-hit."
I agree with that. But that's what I mean: it seems Westerners are less concerned with the actual martial arts of their ancestors. Why aren't they arguing over elaborate rules of dueling swordplay and rolling saving throws and modifiers, but then just rolling a dice and saying "Okay my wizard casts some random spell and all your orcs are dead. Burned, frozen, petrified... take your pick, who cares." Instead, the reverse was true in old AD&D.

@ Terraoblivion:
LOL here we go.

Um, you did read that passage regarding Cuhulainn, yes? It's a lengthy description of what he looks like when he gets very angry.
At any rate, even if it was a passage describing Cuhulainn's weapons techniques, it's still irrelevant because I was talking about Europe's martial arts falling into obscurity with the advent of gunpowder.
As for Tolkien, I didn't realize Lord of the Rings was wuxia. I'm so sorry. The huge book where the Battle Of Helm's Deep was only 3 pages long. Have you ever read wuxia? 3 pages long is a quick fight with a minor character.

EDIT: Oh wait, I see what you were confused over and jumping on. You thought I meant Western mythology didn't have superhuman heroes/fighters. When what I meant was that Europe had a disconnect with their martial arts after the advent of gunpowder, and as a result AD&D and novels started neglecting superhuman prowess as a result of training in martial arts (you can in fact see examples of this in Cuhulainn when he trained with that female weaponsmaster, and also for some Indian mythic heroes off the top of my head), as opposed to Eastern conventions.

@ Brother Oni:

I'd argue that it is due to Eastern influences, just wuxia and HK action movies, rather than Japanese.
Yeah. I used the word Easterners rather than Japanese, but it could be missed.

@ Yora:

I think it's actually that there are a lot of people who are interested in how western weapons and armor actually work and what they can and can't do. When characters become "superhuman", all those details become pointless.
Actually! Those details remain important even when characters become superhuman in wuxia (for example Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon). The details of techniques/arts may become fantastical, but authors often take painstaking effort in keeping them consistent. You see this in the construction of magic/spell systems in Western fantasy novels; for wuxia it's done for the kung fu.
This is the divide in cultural consciousness that I'm musing about. And it's why I said "whether realistic or mythical."

@ Kato:

Maybe it's just me but I really feel like you feel offended for no reason I can see. Or I' feeling attacked for no reason...
It's not just you dude read what she has been typing to me LOL.
But, her replies to your posts are valid, minus the verbal bile. Post #47 makes a lot of sense.

@ Kasanip:

Sorry it is first time for me to hear this name. To read wikipedia article, it seems it also has trouble and confusion. Is it an original, or is it a plagiarism? I don't now.
LOL you mean Battletech? You don't want to see Battletech mechas, you will be scarred forever. :smallbiggrin:
British mecha compared to Jpnese mecha are like... Volvos to Ferraris.

[Brother Oni]

LOL you mean Battletech? You don't want to see Battletech mechas, you will be scarred forever. :smallbiggrin:
British mecha compared to Jpnese mecha are like... Volvos to Ferraris.

Battletech is an US IP, which I believe ended up in trouble for being a bit too similar to Japanese designs during early editions, but has since been fixed.

The only common British mecha I can think of (aside from military AFVs/MBTs like the Warrior or Challenger 2) are 40K vehicles, which ranges from Battlemech-esque stuff in Imperium designs, to elegant humanoids of the Eldar, to anime influenced Tau gear.

[MLai]

Thanks for correcting me. For some reason I always thought Battletech is a British IP. Maybe I got it mixed up with W40K when I was young. And yes, I haven't looked at Battletech since forever, so they might have updated their designs just like Volvo has updated theirs LOL.

I like W40K's mecha designs btw. Except for the Tau they weren't copying Japanese mecha themes at all. Even with the Tau, I think they're more inspired by Masamune Shirow than Macross/Gundam, and I like that since I love Masamune Shirow's works (and don't care about those others).

[Yora]

I agree. Tau look like straight out of Appleseed. :smallbiggrin:

Question: would you call Spice and Wolf Eastern or Western? The setting seems very European middle ages or Renaissance to me, but then one of the main characters is an animal spirit/local god shapeshifting into the shape of a human woman with a tail and ears.
I'd call it genre-mesh. Like about 95% of Japanese entertainment. Maintaining the context of a specific framework does not seem to be something that most writers even take into consideration.

The idea of "a world just like our (uneducated victorianized) idea of the early middle ages, but with magic" really seems to be a rather localized phenomenon. Which I would limit to central and northern Europe, plus North Americans whose ancestors came from the former.
And I think there we also have the culprit. "Victorian bastardized fiction". :smallbiggrin:
They created a quite coherent fictional world and managed to convince almost anyone that it is historically accurate, to the point that their fiction greatly overshadows the reality even to this day.

[HandofShadows]

Ooh, how about a different one... how well-known is BattleTech in Japan? I know that its creators had contacted the creators of Macross for permission to use the designs (but, silly them, not the license holders in America)... it's basically feudal Europe... In SPACE! With GIANT ROBOTS!


Actually they didn't even talk to the creators of Macross either. :smallyuk: There is a Japanese version of Battletech (with totaly redesigned mechs There is website someplace that has the new art for the mechs someplace IIRC) but it seems to rather a nitch product. Battletech's big tank like mechs don't go well with the fast agile mechs Japan seems to favor most of the time.

[KnightDisciple]

Battletech is an US IP, which I believe ended up in trouble for being a bit too similar to Japanese designs during early editions, but has since been fixed.

More accurately, some of the early core mech designs were based on stuff from Macross and a few other anime. They're actually some of the more iconic designs, which was why it was sad they kind of went unseen (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen) for a while. Which is sad; I love some of those classic designs. Seeing as the Grey Death Legion trilogy made heavy use of them, they've earned a place in my heart. :smallbiggrin:

The overall world/setting/concept was never in danger of being accused of plagiarism, though. It's been accused of other things, but it is its own beast.