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Gnoman
2012-07-21, 10:55 AM
If you can see each dorm separately it should stand out. For the most Harry and Ron got on with their dorm mates. It never occurred to the twins to inquire about that door mate they had that they never mentioned?



Why would the twins ever even look at that dorm? Hogwarts was safe then (even in book 2, the dorms were, considered secure, and they gave the map to Harry very early in book 3) so there's no reason that they would be checking up on their brother constantly. Even if they did glance over there a time or two, you tend only to see what you're looking for when you're presented with a mass of text snippets. It's quite reasonable that they never noticed.

Starbuck_II
2012-07-21, 10:59 AM
The most logical explanation for seeing Percy and peter overlapping on 1 bed and then Peter and Ron overlapping on a bed is a pedophile. The twins saw this until PoA when they gave the map up.

No, they might think that Ron could be gay. It was a "do not tell" policy.

Boci
2012-07-21, 11:14 AM
Why would the twins ever even look at that dorm?

Tp play a prank on him. Same reason they spied on Percy.


Even if they did glance over there a time or two, you tend only to see what you're looking for when you're presented with a mass of text snippets. It's quite reasonable that they never noticed.

But its not a see of mass snippets, its 5 names in a room, one of which is wrong. And really? "A time or two"? Over the course of a year? I don't imagen them checking up on him every day, but I imagine that if you have a map that shows the location of everyone, you are periodically going to check up on the people you care about, because its what people do.

VanBuren
2012-07-21, 02:21 PM
Tp play a prank on him. Same reason they spied on Percy.

Yeah, but Percy is infinitely more entertaining as a target than Ron.

Because, y'know, Percy.

Nekura
2012-07-21, 04:07 PM
Perhaps the Twins never cared except to look for professors.

Ok I guess everyone is going to ignore my comment that other then Pettigrew the twins should have wondered about Tom Riddle overlapping Qurriel all year?

The Glyphstone
2012-07-21, 05:09 PM
Ok I guess everyone is going to ignore my comment that other then Pettigrew the twins should have wondered about Tom Riddle overlapping Qurriel all year?

Why do you think that would even be the case? Voldemort wasn't embodied, he was sharing Quirrell's body, a bodiless spirit using possession. I have no idea why you'd expect him to show up on the Map at all.

Nekura
2012-07-21, 05:54 PM
Why do you think that would even be the case? Voldemort wasn't embodied, he was sharing Quirrell's body, a bodiless spirit using possession. I have no idea why you'd expect him to show up on the Map at all.

Well we don't know how the map works. We don't know if you have to be embodied to show up on it or if possessing a body would count. I don't know if it mentioned if the ghosts of Hogwarts show up on it or not for instance. I don't see how we could be sure either way but I know other people who think he would show up on it.

As for the twins noticing Pettigrew and thinking him a boy in Ron's year well that’s even more doubtful then them not noticing him with Percy or Ron over all those years. The class sizes are small and smaller for each of the houses even if you take into account the forgotten kids that don't get much mention at all in the books. The twins were at the sorting cheering about getting potter so they would know Pettigrew wasn't a first year and they seem more social able then the golden trio or Percy so should know more of who is in Gryffindor not just their year.

Xondoure
2012-07-21, 06:12 PM
Well we don't know how the map works. We don't know if you have to be embodied to show up on it or if possessing a body would count. I don't know if it mentioned if the ghosts of Hogwarts show up on it or not for instance. I don't see how we could be sure either way but I know other people who think he would show up on it.

As for the twins noticing Pettigrew and thinking him a boy in Ron's year well that’s even more doubtful then them not noticing him with Percy or Ron over all those years. The class sizes are small and smaller for each of the houses even if you take into account the forgotten kids that don't get much mention at all in the books. The twins were at the sorting cheering about getting potter so they would know Pettigrew wasn't a first year and they seem more social able then the golden trio or Percy so should know more of who is in Gryffindor not just their year.

If Tom Riddle is there on Quirrel's head, he'd also show up in the diary, on Harry's Scar and other horcruxes.

Nekura
2012-07-21, 06:22 PM
If Tom Riddle is there on Quirrel's head, he'd also show up in the diary, on Harry's Scar and other horcruxes.

Not necessarily. That's the main part of Voldemort not just a part of his soul in a horcrux and he is actively possessing someone.

Emmerask
2012-07-21, 06:28 PM
Hm the spell says you split your soul in half...
If we take that literally then it would follow that the ghost part would actually be the smallest part (together with the one in harry), while the most intact part (ie 50%) would be in whatever horcrux was made first

The Glyphstone
2012-07-21, 07:52 PM
Or the Horcrux ritual might split the soul among all the horcruxes equally, making each one less individually important as you produce more of them. Honestly, we have no idea and no way to find out short of asking the author.

Anecronwashere
2012-07-21, 08:01 PM
That would imply predetermination or needing to have all the Horcruxs with you when you made another.
Unless you want bits of soul flying around everywhere outside of something for extended periods.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-21, 08:05 PM
That would imply predetermination or needing to have all the Horcruxs with you when you made another.
Unless you want bits of soul flying around everywhere outside of something for extended periods.

It could be, you know, magic. How many MPH can a soul fragment travel, anyways?

Xondoure
2012-07-21, 10:09 PM
Not necessarily. That's the main part of Voldemort not just a part of his soul in a horcrux and he is actively possessing someone.

The Riddle Part came closer to being alive than the "main part" did while the twins had the map (though the chamber of secrets isn't on it.)

Nekura
2012-07-21, 11:51 PM
Here’s some more. Hagrid getting Harry from Godric’s hollow ending up taking the motorbike to get to safety faster. Sign of not planning ahead where things like portkeys or apparition could be used or just wanting a flying motorbike?

Dumbledore hiding the stone and warning school not to go to the corridor which would cause kids to go there just to see what’s up. Part of his plan for Harry to confront Voldemort? Or sign of not having the age line invented yet?

Qurriel informing great hall of a troll in the dungeons and Dumbledore sends everyone all across the school to their common rooms. Did she have the Slytherin's common room in the dungeons in her mind at the time she wrote this part? Or is it just one of those examples of Dumbledore being an idiot/not caring about student safety?

Xondoure
2012-07-22, 03:24 AM
Here’s some more. Hagrid getting Harry from Godric’s hollow ending up taking the motorbike to get to safety faster. Sign of not planning ahead where things like portkeys or apparition could be used or just wanting a flying motorbike?

Dumbledore hiding the stone and warning school not to go to the corridor which would cause kids to go there just to see what’s up. Part of his plan for Harry to confront Voldemort? Or sign of not having the age line invented yet?

Qurriel informing great hall of a troll in the dungeons and Dumbledore sends everyone all across the school to their common rooms. Did she have the Slytherin's common room in the dungeons in her mind at the time she wrote this part? Or is it just one of those examples of Dumbledore being an idiot/not caring about student safety?

First, that is not what I meant when I said thought the whole thing through. I meant the plot, not the intricacies of the magic system (which is just there to serve the plot, and yes, has several holes.)

Adressing them as such, Voldemort's fall was a very stressful period in the lives of the Order. In all probability Hagrid was in Godric's Hollow (not the location of the fidelius charm, just the town.) in case something went wrong. Which it did. As a result Hagrid was there on scene to look after the baby. And if you question that logic remember that Dumbledore trusts Hagrid, and the man is a damn good choice being half giant and thus very hard to kill, and considered a fool, so no one expects the level of trust. Yes it took him a while to get to privet drive but so what? All other forms of travel were probably being watched. Again, what's weird about Mcgonagal going to the Dursleys ahead of time to make sure any smarter servants of the dark lord don't figure out why the house is important before Harry gets there? (yeesh long sentence that.) And she's perfect for that job because she can turn into a cat.

The Corridor was hounded by Filch, and Fluffy is a pretty good deterrent to avoid going any farther should you get past him (with say, an invisibility cloak.) And an age line was not the point of the protections, because any kid stupid enough to move closer to the forbidden giant three headed dog is in a too stupid to live in magic world category. The point of the protections was to make sure an extremely powerful dark wizard didn't move through there. And the challenges did a pretty good job if you consider the likelihood of any one wizard being capable of all the feats both mental and physical, while still being easy for the teachers as a unit to access the room. We can also assume Dumbledore had some defense up before the mirror that wasn't nearly as clever, but probably still effective (why wouldn't he help out after all.)

And finally all the teachers would have been with Slytherin House until they were safely locked away in their sleeping quarters. A single troll wouldn't have been a match. Hell a single troll wouldn't do significant harm to all of Slytherin house working together. A single gifted or quick witted student was enough.

Anecronwashere
2012-07-22, 04:26 AM
Even if hagrid was at the scene immediately or stationed there he took more than a day to get there (The potters died at night, everyone was talking about it for at least a whole day) on a flying bike. He said he came straight from Godric's Hollow to Privet Drive during that time. That's 24 straight hours on a bike.

Mcgonagall was not ordered there, Dumbledore made no mention of that fact, she was just hanging out for a day for no apparent reason.

The cursed scar and the death-defying baby weren't given any sort of tests? If something that esoteric happened the DoM would have the kid locked in a room for a month, a full squad of Healers would be there too in case of negative side-effects. Instead we get a "Just a scar, who cares the baby just withstood a Killing Curse"

No-one checked up on Harry?
This I can kind of see with Dumbles simply twinkling his eyes and saying "Harry is fine, go on with your lives, trust me."

No-one noticed the blatant abuse?
Out-Of-Book I can see the reason for, in-universe it reeks of manipulation. No neighbour noticed the tiny boy doing all the gardening opposed to the fat kid? Even the world's best propaganda network wouldn't stop someone reporting it.
Teachers are trained to notice abuse and this obviously was. Especially in comparison to the rude, overweight Dudley who lived in the same house.
The only way that no-one noticed was they are all as senile as Dumbledore or there were Memory Charms or something flying around.

The locked door had no alarm wards? or an ageline? This is basic security precautions when dealing with kids.
I bet you 90+% of 2nd year and up Gryffindors checked out that room within a week. You don't tell teenagers about a forbidden corridor under threat of death and not expect the House of the Foolhardy not to take a peek.
And don't say it's survival of the fittest.
Also if it was just protections against a Dark Wizard, wouldn't a Fidelius on a locked box, inside a room filled with portraits with other paintings in or near Dumbledore's office with the only way into the room being through a door warded against most unlocking spells (ala Umbridge's office door) from a room filled with keys on pedestals, with every wrong one set to set off an alarm if touched and that room behind a passworded portrait in a disused section of the castle with no signifying marks and not called out in any way shape or form.

Also the troll is clearly a very real threat and likely magic-resistant and the Slytherins had no teachers with them, just Prefects and 7th years. All the teachers were combing the school for the troll (except for Snape/Quirrell who were after the stone)
If the troll wasn't a threat the feast would have continued, no-one would have panicked and 3-4 teachers would have excused themselves.

Nekura
2012-07-22, 05:47 AM
First, that is not what I meant when I said thought the whole thing through. I meant the plot, not the intricacies of the magic system (which is just there to serve the plot, and yes, has several holes.)

Adressing them as such, Voldemort's fall was a very stressful period in the lives of the Order. In all probability Hagrid was in Godric's Hollow (not the location of the fidelius charm, just the town.) in case something went wrong. Which it did. As a result Hagrid was there on scene to look after the baby. And if you question that logic remember that Dumbledore trusts Hagrid, and the man is a damn good choice being half giant and thus very hard to kill, and considered a fool, so no one expects the level of trust. Yes it took him a while to get to privet drive but so what? All other forms of travel were probably being watched. Again, what's weird about Mcgonagal going to the Dursleys ahead of time to make sure any smarter servants of the dark lord don't figure out why the house is important before Harry gets there? (yeesh long sentence that.) And she's perfect for that job because she can turn into a cat.

The Corridor was hounded by Filch, and Fluffy is a pretty good deterrent to avoid going any farther should you get past him (with say, an invisibility cloak.) And an age line was not the point of the protections, because any kid stupid enough to move closer to the forbidden giant three headed dog is in a too stupid to live in magic world category. The point of the protections was to make sure an extremely powerful dark wizard didn't move through there. And the challenges did a pretty good job if you consider the likelihood of any one wizard being capable of all the feats both mental and physical, while still being easy for the teachers as a unit to access the room. We can also assume Dumbledore had some defense up before the mirror that wasn't nearly as clever, but probably still effective (why wouldn't he help out after all.)

And finally all the teachers would have been with Slytherin House until they were safely locked away in their sleeping quarters. A single troll wouldn't have been a match. Hell a single troll wouldn't do significant harm to all of Slytherin house working together. A single gifted or quick witted student was enough.

Sirius asked Hagrid to give him his godson. Hagrid said he was to bring him to Dumbledore on his orders. How would Dumbledore know Harry was alive. Hagrid wasn't just hanging out there at random or as a guard Dumbledore sent him after somehow knowing of the attack and that Harry survived. Dumbledore trusts Hagrid but did the Potters? How involved are you suggesting Dumbledore was behind the Potter’s security? Enough to know their location and have Hagrid hanging about but not about who the secret keeper was? Why would Hagrid if he thought Sirius was the secret keeper and betrayed the Potters not either try to fight Sirius or escape with Harry? Hagrid went from there to the Dursleys so not only is it taking a long time but how did the story get spread so that Dumbledore passed several parties celebrating Harry’s defeat of Voldemort?

As already mentioned by Anecronwashere Dumbledore had the prefects escort the students to their common rooms while the teachers went looking for the troll. They didn't escort all the students and then look for the Troll. If trolls are not a threat there is not need to send everyone to the common rooms the slytherin one being near the last known location of the troll or at least that’s where we eventually end up getting told it is but might not have been planed to be there yet by JKR.

An age line would keep kids safe without telling everyone where exactly something important was being hidden. Protections are good and all (well not the protections the used in the book) but not letting everyone know exactly where in the castle to look and having protections would be better. If it's dangerous enough for a student to stumble on a Cerberus that they were warned not to go there then there should be an age line because if you are callus enough to say if a kid walks near a Cerberus they deserve it then why warn them at all?

I liked most of the books the last few not being as good. But I am not afraid to look at flaws of things I like. However there where many things that didn’t seem like they were well planned out looking back at it. Did they change things that much in the movies? You seem to be remembering things happening differently. Did you have any thoughts about the bloodwards lasting as long as Harry called the place home, him not if ever calling the place home as said by him at the end of the first book then later being retconed to ending after he becomes of age?

Helanna
2012-07-22, 07:42 AM
Did you have any thoughts about the bloodwards lasting as long as Harry called the place home, him not if ever calling the place home as said by him at the end of the first book then later being retconed to ending after he becomes of age?

Harry may not think of it as home, but he still went and lived there, so it still is his home. I don't think Harry's personal feelings about the place matter much.

As for the other stuff - again, the first book may be full of minor holes, but it's lighthearted and generally well-written enough that I don't care. I'm more than willing to ascribe everything to rule of cool. The protagonists manage to get away with things they shouldn't because, well, there wouldn't be a book otherwise. In the later books, which take themselves a lot more seriously, plot holes stand out a lot more and are more jarring, but the first couple books are fairly typical for children's books. They don't take themselves so seriously and so I can suspend a lot more disbelief.

Traab
2012-07-22, 11:34 AM
Tp play a prank on him. Same reason they spied on Percy.



But its not a see of mass snippets, its 5 names in a room, one of which is wrong. And really? "A time or two"? Over the course of a year? I don't imagen them checking up on him every day, but I imagine that if you have a map that shows the location of everyone, you are periodically going to check up on the people you care about, because its what people do.

Keep in mind, I think gryffindors dorms were set in a tower, meaning each floor overlaps the last. So if they tried to check out the dorms, they would see the entire 7 years worth of gryffindor names, all stacked on top of each other. So on a casual search, its understandable to seeing 50 names stacked on top of each other, it would be easy to miss pettigrews.

Also, we have no real clue as to what sort of person percy was with his pet. Ron practically carried him everywhere, Percy may have just left him in his room, or let him wander at will through the castle. So its not like he would be snuggled up with pettigrew at all hours of the day and night. Harry only rarely used the map, and generally just to avoid teachers, he didnt pay attention to the dorms because he didnt have anything to worry about from that direction. So thats why he never spotted the rat until he saw the name heading right for him.

Anecronwashere
2012-07-22, 05:21 PM
Its a useless map if it doesn't show specific dorms.
Because if it doesn't designate between floors in a dorm, then it doesn't designate between floors in the corridors.
I think you had to fold out each floor from the next, rather than having 50 names all clumped at night.

Traab
2012-07-22, 09:55 PM
Its possible, but this is rowling, she really didnt tend to think much about unintended consequences when she would think up a cool item. *cough* TIME TURNERS *cough*

Anecronwashere
2012-07-22, 10:28 PM
I don't actually have a problem with the Time-Turners given that they are closed paradoxes.

They could have been used much more frequently than they were but since events have to play out as observed it doesn't have much actual use in a combat or info-gathering sense.

Traab
2012-07-22, 10:55 PM
I don't actually have a problem with the Time-Turners given that they are closed paradoxes.

They could have been used much more frequently than they were but since events have to play out as observed it doesn't have much actual use in a combat or info-gathering sense.

Not true. At the end of book 4, all dumbledoore would have needed was harrys memory of what happened, and he could have apparated to the cemetery with a small army of loyal minions, used a few time turners to show up at a time and place harry wouldnt have seen, and gutted the ever loving hell out of voldemorts inner circle. No paradox as harry wouldnt have known what was happening behind him, or right after he left. Time turners could have been used in a LOT of scenarios to either mitigate bad things, or even stop them entirely. It would just take proper planning, and considering they can go back in freaking time, they HAVE the time to plan things out first.

Boci
2012-07-23, 07:51 AM
Keep in mind, I think gryffindors dorms were set in a tower, meaning each floor overlaps the last.

No. If what you said is true, it would apply to all of hogwarts, but at no point is Harry ever unsure what floor the dot is on.


Also, we have no real clue as to what sort of person percy was with his pet. Ron practically carried him everywhere, Percy may have just left him in his room, or let him wander at will through the castle.

The twins still should have noticed the same name in two brothers doormrooms for multiple years.

Emmerask
2012-07-23, 08:05 AM
Do we even know if percy brought his pet to Hogwarts ?

Dragonus45
2012-07-23, 08:16 AM
In order to view an area dont you have to fold the map to the floor specifically. Or when you open it does it just go to where you are are want it to zoom.

Boci
2012-07-23, 11:08 AM
In order to view an area dont you have to fold the map to the floor specifically. Or when you open it does it just go to where you are are want it to zoom.

I doubt it since I don't recall it ever mentioning Harry "zooming in" on a specific floor.

Anecronwashere
2012-07-23, 11:14 AM
The map spreads out from his position at the wand tap
To see other areas he just folds/unfolds the map repeatedly

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 12:50 PM
No. If what you said is true, it would apply to all of hogwarts, but at no point is Harry ever unsure what floor the dot is on.

The twins still should have noticed the same name in two brothers doormrooms for multiple years.

Humans have selective sight. Basically, we only see what we're looking for. So the chances of them reading the name Peter Pettigrew and remembering having read it in a location that doesn't make sense are slim to none.

Traab
2012-07-23, 01:06 PM
Or, its a plot hole that can only be patched up with lots of speculation. The simple truth is, we dont know why the twins never noticed that both percy and ron had a best friend with them constantly named peter pettigrew. There are dozens of possible reasons why, but it is never mentioned, never thought of, and left wide open. Plain and simple truth is, we shouldnt have to explain why this is the case, thats what makes it a plot hole.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 01:13 PM
Or, its a plot hole that can only be patched up with lots of speculation. The simple truth is, we dont know why the twins never noticed that both percy and ron had a best friend with them constantly named peter pettigrew. There are dozens of possible reasons why, but it is never mentioned, never thought of, and left wide open. Plain and simple truth is, we shouldnt have to explain why this is the case, thats what makes it a plot hole.

There are plenty of things people don't necessarily understand that don't put holes in the plot. If that is all that makes a plot hole than any story that is even slightly complex is a plot hole because someone who viewed it failed to put all the dots together.

Scabbers was not with either of them constantly, he had pretty free reign of the castle, but always came back (being a very smart rat.) One more dot amidst hundreds. Them catching it would be either incredibly fortuitous or on a level of observation worthy of Sherlock Holmes.

Emmerask
2012-07-23, 01:53 PM
I this is a case of trying to create a plothole more then an actual plothole existing.

We don´t even know when percy gifted scabbers to ron (as far as I remember it was never said when only that).
So the time when the twins got to Hogwarts, got the map and figured out how to work it would be a maximum of 1 year to spot the rat on the map with Percy.
After that we know Ron has the rat on the train to Hogwarts.
But it could very well be that Percy has given the rat to ron long before that.

Also and very much more important rats are not on the allowed pets list for Hogwarts, yes we know no one really bothers with this, BUT we also know that Percy very much likes to stick to rules so it could very well be that he left the rat at home especially since he doesn´t really care about the rat (else why would he have given it away?).


There are dozens of possible reasons why, but it is never mentioned, never thought of, and left wide open. Plain and simple truth is, we shouldnt have to explain why this is the case, thats what makes it a plot hole.

If this is the qualification for a plothole then every film, videogame and book in existence has about 1 trillion each ^^

Boci
2012-07-23, 02:46 PM
Humans have selective sight.

1. For multiple years?

2. This is a magical map of unknown power and potential. Just what where they expecting?

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 02:50 PM
1. For multiple years?

2. This is a magical map of unknown power and potential. Just what where they expecting?

That's not what I meant. What I meant was they would barely notice most of the names on the map, and certainly not enough to put together any suspicions, because that's how the human brain works. It's selective sight, not an inability to see something new.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-23, 02:59 PM
That's not what I meant. What I meant was they would barely notice most of the names on the map, and certainly not enough to put together any suspicions, because that's how the human brain works. It's selective sight, not an inability to see something new.

You're telling me that, upon seeing this map for the first time as a kid, you wouldn't immediately look up everyone you know for lulz? I would have. Mischief potential for that is high. The novelty probably wouldn't wear off for weeks, and looking up people I know to mess with them(or just because I didn't know where they were offhand) is sort of what it's for.

And any hint of a romantic liason, true or not, would have absolutely have been followed by teasting. Kids are like that.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 03:03 PM
You're telling me that, upon seeing this map for the first time as a kid, you wouldn't immediately look up everyone you know for lulz? I would have. Mischief potential for that is high. The novelty probably wouldn't wear off for weeks, and looking up people I know to mess with them(or just because I didn't know where they were offhand) is sort of what it's for.

And any hint of a romantic liason, true or not, would have absolutely have been followed by teasting. Kids are like that.

Scabbers was usually in a cage next to Ron's bed unless I'm wrong. And again, Peter Pettigrew probably wasn't even in Gryffindor Tower most of the time. So it would come down to random chance, and not with good probability.

Partof1
2012-07-23, 03:55 PM
If I had a map like that, I would look up specific people to prank. Friends, enemies, teachers, or people I know would react well. Knowing every single person's whereabouts would just take time that could be used on the actual funny part.

If they were to go after stangers, the odds of them taking interest in Pettigrew out of everyone are slim enough that I don't consider it a plot hole.

Nekura
2012-07-23, 04:18 PM
I this is a case of trying to create a plothole more then an actual plothole existing.

We don´t even know when percy gifted scabbers to ron (as far as I remember it was never said when only that).
So the time when the twins got to Hogwarts, got the map and figured out how to work it would be a maximum of 1 year to spot the rat on the map with Percy.
After that we know Ron has the rat on the train to Hogwarts.
But it could very well be that Percy has given the rat to ron long before that.

Also and very much more important rats are not on the allowed pets list for Hogwarts, yes we know no one really bothers with this, BUT we also know that Percy very much likes to stick to rules so it could very well be that he left the rat at home especially since he doesn´t really care about the rat (else why would he have given it away?).



If this is the qualification for a plothole then every film, videogame and book in existence has about 1 trillion each ^^

Percy gave Ron his rat because Percy was given an owl as a reward for making Prefect. If Percy cared about that rule he would have brought it up with Ron because he also doesn’t seem to care about family ties over rules and Ron wasn't exactly keeping having the rat at school a secret. If anything there seems to be a lot of selective remembering going on.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-23, 04:21 PM
Scabbers was usually in a cage next to Ron's bed unless I'm wrong. And again, Peter Pettigrew probably wasn't even in Gryffindor Tower most of the time. So it would come down to random chance, and not with good probability.

Well, the odds of them caring about peter is probably pretty slim, but IIRC, scabbers was often with Ron...and them taking an interest in Ron(even if only to prank him), is pretty reasonable. So, if they ever opted to prank ron late at night, they'd almost have had to have noticed it.

Most likely conclusion? Rowling just never considered the implications when she introduced the magic item.

It's a good series for what it is, but it's slipups like that that keep it from being truly great. That said...Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is fantastic.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 05:26 PM
Well, the odds of them caring about peter is probably pretty slim, but IIRC, scabbers was often with Ron...and them taking an interest in Ron(even if only to prank him), is pretty reasonable. So, if they ever opted to prank ron late at night, they'd almost have had to have noticed it.

Most likely conclusion? Rowling just never considered the implications when she introduced the magic item.

It's a good series for what it is, but it's slipups like that that keep it from being truly great. That said...Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is fantastic.

The odds of them using the map to prank Ron while Scabbers was with Ron are very slim, as I said before. The twins may have used the map a lot, but probably only once or twice to prank their younger brother (if at all.) Now let's be generous and say Ron spends three hours a day close to Scabbers. (not counting rest time because again, there's nothing suspicious about one more name in the dormitory.) Even then they only have a 12.5% chance of noticing Ron and Peter interact. If they do, they'll probably just assume they are friends.

I just don't see how it's implausible that the twins didn't notice or didn't care. From my perspective it's probably both.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-23, 05:31 PM
I just don't see how it's implausible that the twins didn't notice or didn't care. From my perspective it's probably both.

The sheer amount of time over which they have to fail to notice is what makes it unusual, and they do very much seem like the types to know the names of many of the other Griffendors.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 05:49 PM
The sheer amount of time over which they have to fail to notice is what makes it unusual, and they do very much seem like the types to know the names of many of the other Griffendors.

Sure but underclassmen two years below? This and the twins as much as admitted they didn't even use the map anymore. And when they did they mostly used it to avoid teachers, which is why they passed the map off to Harry in the first place. And Ron only ever really cared enough about Scabbers to make sure he had food and water. So the three hour/day estimate was extremely generous.

Aedilred
2012-07-23, 06:43 PM
Not true. At the end of book 4, all dumbledoore would have needed was harrys memory of what happened, and he could have apparated to the cemetery with a small army of loyal minions, used a few time turners to show up at a time and place harry wouldnt have seen, and gutted the ever loving hell out of voldemorts inner circle. No paradox as harry wouldnt have known what was happening behind him, or right after he left. Time turners could have been used in a LOT of scenarios to either mitigate bad things, or even stop them entirely. It would just take proper planning, and considering they can go back in freaking time, they HAVE the time to plan things out first.

That's true, but then the Time Turners are under lock and key at the Ministry. Dumbledore doesn't have the authority to issue or use them without ministerial approval; Hermione only got hers on personal application from McGonnagall. After Voldy returns, the Ministry flat-out refuses to believe him and from that point onwards they actively hinder Harry's and Dumbledores' attempts to do anything about Voldemort. By the time the Ministry has been convinced of the problem, their entire stock of Time Turners has apparently been destroyed (by Harry and co).

I suppose Dumbledore could have smashed his way into the Ministry and stolen a TT, but that would probably have caused more problems than it solved. Also, don't Time Turners have a limit on how far back you can travel with them? Or am I confusing Methods of Rationality?

It seems Rowling did consider the effect of the TTs and put enough in there to explain why, especially in the later books, they're not an option. Either that, or she got lucky.

Traab
2012-07-23, 08:37 PM
That's true, but then the Time Turners are under lock and key at the Ministry. Dumbledore doesn't have the authority to issue or use them without ministerial approval; Hermione only got hers on personal application from McGonnagall. After Voldy returns, the Ministry flat-out refuses to believe him and from that point onwards they actively hinder Harry's and Dumbledores' attempts to do anything about Voldemort. By the time the Ministry has been convinced of the problem, their entire stock of Time Turners has apparently been destroyed (by Harry and co).

I suppose Dumbledore could have smashed his way into the Ministry and stolen a TT, but that would probably have caused more problems than it solved. Also, don't Time Turners have a limit on how far back you can travel with them? Or am I confusing Methods of Rationality?

It seems Rowling did consider the effect of the TTs and put enough in there to explain why, especially in the later books, they're not an option. Either that, or she got lucky.

Meh, there are a number of ways the whole ministerial thing could have been handled. "Ok fudgey, lets say you are right, lets go back to the spot he was taken to and go back in time to see what REALLY happened. Who knows? You might get lucky and see harry murdering cedric." Also, I dont know if its true that dumbledoore couldnt have commandeered a few turners on his own authority, or otherwise gotten ahold of some. He was still albus effing dumbledoore at that moment, the supreme mugwump, grand warlock, high muckety muck lord of more titles than he has students. I doubt that in an emergency he couldnt have arranged for something or pulled a few strings. Hell, thats how the freaking government works there. "I helped you out back then, I need this from you now"

And yeah, im sure there are some limits on how far back you can go, thats why it would be an emergency. They basically have say, an hour or two after harry showed back up to make a plan, gather some forces, and get their asses there to pull it off. Tough, but workable. And considering the circumstances, two students went missing right from under everyones nose, they both come back, one badly injured and showing signs of torture, the other dead, I think demanding a fast response would be hard to block at that moment. Leave voldemort out of it, "some random lunatic committed murder torture and kidnapping, lets go get the bastard!"

As for my earlier post on plot holes, no, not every question is a plot hole, but when you have macguffins that clearly possess highly useful powers, and they are never used in a way that would have solved everything, even though previously and afterwards they get used that way all the freaking time, there needs to be an explanation why, or else we have to come up with our own because there isnt one. The map is just such a case. The twins had 2 years and change to spot pettigrew always next to their brother. They already know everyone in rons year, none of them are named peter pettigrew.

Lord Seth
2012-07-23, 08:42 PM
When was it established that Peter could be seen on the map again?

Nekura
2012-07-23, 08:45 PM
When was it established that Peter could be seen on the map again?

In prisoner of azkaban.

Traab
2012-07-23, 08:49 PM
In prisoner of azkaban.

Yep, harry sees rat form pettigrew heading towards him on the map.

Logic
2012-07-23, 08:57 PM
Why do you think that would even be the case? Voldemort wasn't embodied, he was sharing Quirrell's body, a bodiless spirit using possession. I have no idea why you'd expect him to show up on the Map at all.

This was my thought too.

Well we don't know how the map works. We don't know if you have to be embodied to show up on it or if possessing a body would count. I don't know if it mentioned if the ghosts of Hogwarts show up on it or not for instance. I don't see how we could be sure either way but I know other people who think he would show up on it.

As for the twins noticing Pettigrew and thinking him a boy in Ron's year well that’s even more doubtful then them not noticing him with Percy or Ron over all those years. The class sizes are small and smaller for each of the houses even if you take into account the forgotten kids that don't get much mention at all in the books. The twins were at the sorting cheering about getting potter so they would know Pettigrew wasn't a first year and they seem more social able then the golden trio or Percy so should know more of who is in Gryffindor not just their year.
We don't know how the map works, and because it was never mentioned that the twins did or did not notice Peter, it can only be assumed based on the context of the rest of the novels that it works in the most convenient method available to the author. Because it was not mentioned, we do not know if the spirit of "Tom Riddle" would appear on the map. We don't even know if Peeves or The Bloody Baron appear on the map.

Nekura
2012-07-23, 09:10 PM
This was my thought too.

We don't know how the map works, and because it was never mentioned that the twins did or did not notice Peter, it can only be assumed based on the context of the rest of the novels that it works in the most convenient method available to the author. Because it was not mentioned, we do not know if the spirit of "Tom Riddle" would appear on the map. We don't even know if Peeves or The Bloody Baron appear on the map.

I said we didn't know if ghosts showed up on it so you are agreeing that we don't know if Peeves or the bloody baron appear of it?

"it works in the most convenient method available to the author"? So you are saying when Harry saw Peter on the map when he was in the hallway in rat form or when Lupin saw Peter get dragged along with Ron to the whomping willow by Sirious in animagus form it worked that way but when people wonder why the twins didn't notice Peter on the map before that it worked a different way because it was more convenient for the author?

The Glyphstone
2012-07-23, 09:11 PM
Pretty sure Peeves was explicitly mentioned as appearing on the map at one point, wasn't he?

Logic
2012-07-23, 09:21 PM
I said we didn't know if ghosts showed up on it so you are agreeing that we don't know if Peeves or the bloody baron appear of it?

"it works in the most convenient method available to the author"? So you are saying when Harry saw Peter on the map when he was in the hallway in rat form or when Lupin saw Peter get dragged along with Ron to the whomping willow by Sirious in animagus form it worked that way but when people wonder why the twins didn't notice Peter on the map before that it worked a different way because it was more convenient for the author?

I'm basically saying that a Willing Suspension of Disbelief isn't that hard to accomplish. Because we don't know if ghosts (or spirits occupying the bodies of others) show up on the map, why are we assuming it is a plot hole?

Because the twins specifically tell Harry they use the map to sneak around and avoid professors (paraphrased, It's possible I am wrong here) why are we assuming it is a plot hole for them to not notice Peter?

EDIT:

Pretty sure Peeves was explicitly mentioned as appearing on the map at one point, wasn't he?

Yup, the Harry Potter wiki states Peeves does indeed appear on the Marauder's map. There goes my theory.

Peeves was shown on the Marauder's Map to entertain himself by bouncing around the trophy room. He also displayed quite an amount of glee at the prospect of the Dementors using the "Kiss" on Sirius Black
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Peeves

Nekura
2012-07-23, 09:38 PM
Pretty sure Peeves was explicitly mentioned as appearing on the map at one point, wasn't he?

I don't remember but it would be good to know one way or the other. If so it would be a stronger case for Voldemort in Qurriel showing up on it. If ghosts do Voldemort's shade actively possessing someone should much more than Harry's horcrux. The diadem is in ROR which isn't on the map. Diary probably would when it was actively controlling Ginny but that wasn't often and anyone using the map would have been worried about her wandering around alone when people were getting petrified anyway. That was stupid anyway. Why would Riddle want to announce that something was up by having the basilisk attacking people before it finished draining Ginny's life force? Should have just had Ginny trapped in the chamber while sucking her dry. People would just think she ran away or something no one would find her. There would be a chance Fawkes would go rescue her no idea why he did for Harry but there was no way for Tom to know.

Androgeus
2012-07-23, 09:44 PM
aren't poltergeist and ghosts different things? (at least in HP)

Mauve Shirt
2012-07-23, 09:50 PM
Peeves, Iirc, was not once a person as the house ghosts were. But I haven't reached that part of Pottermore, if it exists.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 10:01 PM
I don't remember but it would be good to know one way or the other. If so it would be a stronger case for Voldemort in Qurriel showing up on it. If ghosts do Voldemort's shade actively possessing someone should much more than Harry's horcrux. The diadem is in ROR which isn't on the map. Diary probably would when it was actively controlling Ginny but that wasn't often and anyone using the map would have been worried about her wandering around alone when people were getting petrified anyway. That was stupid anyway. Why would Riddle want to announce that something was up by having the basilisk attacking people before it finished draining Ginny's life force? Should have just had Ginny trapped in the chamber while sucking her dry. People would just think she ran away or something no one would find her. There would be a chance Fawkes would go rescue her no idea why he did for Harry but there was no way for Tom to know.

The Diary was designed specifically as a weapon. Safeguarding part of his soul was a side bonus.

Gnoman
2012-07-23, 10:08 PM
Meh, there are a number of ways the whole ministerial thing could have been handled. "Ok fudgey, lets say you are right, lets go back to the spot he was taken to and go back in time to see what REALLY happened. Who knows? You might get lucky and see harry murdering cedric." Also, I dont know if its true that dumbledoore couldnt have commandeered a few turners on his own authority, or otherwise gotten ahold of some. He was still albus effing dumbledoore at that moment, the supreme mugwump, grand warlock, high muckety muck lord of more titles than he has students. I doubt that in an emergency he couldnt have arranged for something or pulled a few strings. Hell, thats how the freaking government works there. "I helped you out back then, I need this from you now"

Here's the thing. Fudge wasn't simply unconvinced of Voldy's return. He was in full denial, to the point of screaming I CAN'T HEAR YOU with fingers jammed in his ears. Voldy being back would be a disaster Fudge was not prepared to handle. Therefore, he can't be back. He certainly wouldn't agree to go off with Dumbledore into the past, and any attempt to convince others by such means would simply provide "proof" Dumbledore was planning a coup.

Nekura
2012-07-23, 10:17 PM
The Diary was designed specifically as a weapon. Safeguarding part of his soul was a side bonus.

Where did it say that in the books? Wasn't the diary the first one he made before he talked to Slughorn about the theory of making multiple? It wouldn't make sense to design it to be a weapon.

Lord Seth
2012-07-23, 10:19 PM
The answer is obvious.

A wizard did it.

SaintRidley
2012-07-23, 10:24 PM
Where did it say that in the books? Wasn't the diary the first one he made before he talked to Slughorn about the theory of making multiple? It wouldn't make sense to design it to be a weapon.

You've got it. As seen in the example of the locket and its response to Ron, and likely also the ring with Dumbledore (never seen to happen, but very likely if it picked up on Dumbledore's feelings), it seems to be a general property of Horcruxes that they will seek to reach corporeality. It's got to bend you to its will to do so, though, and that's a lot easier done with an eleven year old girl than a centenarian or even an eighteen year old.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 11:03 PM
Meh, there are a number of ways the whole ministerial thing could have been handled. "Ok fudgey, lets say you are right, lets go back to the spot he was taken to and go back in time to see what REALLY happened. Who knows? You might get lucky and see harry murdering cedric." Also, I dont know if its true that dumbledoore couldnt have commandeered a few turners on his own authority, or otherwise gotten ahold of some. He was still albus effing dumbledoore at that moment, the supreme mugwump, grand warlock, high muckety muck lord of more titles than he has students. I doubt that in an emergency he couldnt have arranged for something or pulled a few strings. Hell, thats how the freaking government works there. "I helped you out back then, I need this from you now"

And yeah, im sure there are some limits on how far back you can go, thats why it would be an emergency. They basically have say, an hour or two after harry showed back up to make a plan, gather some forces, and get their asses there to pull it off. Tough, but workable. And considering the circumstances, two students went missing right from under everyones nose, they both come back, one badly injured and showing signs of torture, the other dead, I think demanding a fast response would be hard to block at that moment. Leave voldemort out of it, "some random lunatic committed murder torture and kidnapping, lets go get the bastard!"

As for my earlier post on plot holes, no, not every question is a plot hole, but when you have macguffins that clearly possess highly useful powers, and they are never used in a way that would have solved everything, even though previously and afterwards they get used that way all the freaking time, there needs to be an explanation why, or else we have to come up with our own because there isnt one. The map is just such a case. The twins had 2 years and change to spot pettigrew always next to their brother. They already know everyone in rons year, none of them are named peter pettigrew.

People's brains just don't work that way. If they wouldn't recognize the person by name chances are even if they did see him he was simply ignored. Again, you'd have to be Sherlock Holmes to observe that without prior knowledge.

Nekura
2012-07-23, 11:19 PM
People's brains just don't work that way. If they wouldn't recognize the person by name chances are even if they did see him he was simply ignored. Again, you'd have to be Sherlock Holmes to observe that without prior knowledge.

There is also nothing to say the twins wouldn’t recognize the name. Harry Potter is very famous as is Sirious Black. They might not be as obsessed as Ginny about Harry Potter but it is not unreasonable for them to know what the public thinks happened about Sirius Black betraying the Potters.

Xondoure
2012-07-24, 01:24 AM
There is also nothing to say the twins wouldn’t recognize the name. Harry Potter is very famous as is Sirious Black. They might not be as obsessed as Ginny about Harry Potter but it is not unreasonable for them to know what the public thinks happened about Sirius Black betraying the Potters.

And there is nothing to say they do. Scratch that, there's evidence they don't. It stops being a plot hole, and becomes something that hangs your particular suspension of disbelief when you have an alternative explanation that is both likely and fits the facts. Pick apart anything like this, including real life, and you'll start to see holes everywhere.

VanBuren
2012-07-24, 02:08 AM
And there is nothing to say they do. Scratch that, there's evidence they don't. It stops being a plot hole, and becomes something that hangs your particular suspension of disbelief when you have an alternative explanation that is both likely and fits the facts. Pick apart anything like this, including real life, and you'll start to see holes everywhere.

Not surprising. Reality is the most unrealistic thing there is.

mangosta71
2012-07-24, 09:50 AM
And there is nothing to say they do. Scratch that, there's evidence they don't. It stops being a plot hole, and becomes something that hangs your particular suspension of disbelief when you have an alternative explanation that is both likely and fits the facts. Pick apart anything like this, including real life, and you'll start to see holes everywhere.
Pretty much every adult in the Potterverse knew that Sirius Black was involved in the betrayal. It's reasonable to expect that they knew the names of the others that played parts. It's reasonable to expect that their children would overhear them talking about the events. If nothing else, Peter Pettigrew should have been a name taught to every child as an ultimate example of loyalty - he was believed to have been a martyr, after all. People talk about their heroes, especially with their children whom they hope will grow up emulating the qualities of said heroes.

Frankly, the bigger question I have about the Marauder's Map issue is: how did Fred and George know how to use the thing? Did they find an instruction manual along with it?

Emmerask
2012-07-24, 10:04 AM
I would say that the map is actually helpful with how one has to operate it when "sensing" that the user wants to use it for mischief.

For me the most interesting question was how they managed to create this "artifact", when harry and all the others are far far away from displaying such feats of magic.

VanBuren
2012-07-24, 01:38 PM
I would say that the map is actually helpful with how one has to operate it when "sensing" that the user wants to use it for mischief.

For me the most interesting question was how they managed to create this "artifact", when harry and all the others are far far away from displaying such feats of magic.

Circumstances, probably. The main trio certainly isn't not gifted, but given the world around them, they've been sort of guided into combat and defense spells rather than the kinds of spells used to create the map.

Nekura
2012-07-24, 02:43 PM
I would say that the map is actually helpful with how one has to operate it when "sensing" that the user wants to use it for mischief.

For me the most interesting question was how they managed to create this "artifact", when harry and all the others are far far away from displaying such feats of magic.

Yeah the main trio seems kind of lacking compared to the older generation. The marauders created an extremely useful magical artifact in the map and became animagus on their own. Snape invented at least one dark curse and improved potion recipes. What did Harry do? He cast a patronus and a shield charm both of which it was said not many adult wizards could do. But he was able to teach that to a lot of other kids unless you think he is some sort of uber teacher it kind of diminishes the awesome. Now I doubt that many people would have been able to take on that many dementors with a single patronus especially at that age but that just shows power not ability to invent things. You can probably put a lot of the blame on Dumbledore being a horrible headmaster and letting teaching standards drop so low.

Xondoure
2012-07-24, 03:04 PM
Yeah the main trio seems kind of lacking compared to the older generation. The marauders created an extremely useful magical artifact in the map and became animagus on their own. Snape invented at least one dark curse and improved potion recipes. What did Harry do? He cast a patronus and a shield charm both of which it was said not many adult wizards could do. But he was able to teach that to a lot of other kids unless you think he is some sort of uber teacher it kind of diminishes the awesome. Now I doubt that many people would have been able to take on that many dementors with a single patronus especially at that age but that just shows power not ability to invent things. You can probably put a lot of the blame on Dumbledore being a horrible headmaster and letting teaching standards drop so low.

Your right. I mean really, what did Harry accomplish in his years at Hogwarts? He only stopped the Dark Lord's return twice, saved his godfather from a fate worse than death, won the triwizard tournament at the age of fourteen, survived in a duel against the newly risen lord Voldemort, infiltrated the most heavily guarded department of the wizarding government, destroyed all of the dark lord's horcruxes, sacrificed himself to save everyone in the castle, and then defeated the dark lord after returning from the crossroads of life and death. Stupid slacker that kid. And to think he dropped out his seventh year.

Oh! And lazy Hermione only charmed some coins with a spell beyond NEWT level in their fifth year, created a bag of holding, and had mastered every defensive charm to take them completely off the grid. Clearly she's not that talented at all.

Boci
2012-07-24, 03:11 PM
Your right. I mean really, what did Harry accomplish in his years at Hogwarts? He only stopped the Dark Lord's return twice, saved his godfather from a fate worse than death, won the triwizard tournament at the age of fourteen, survived in a duel against the newly risen lord Voldemort, infiltrated the most heavily guarded department of the wizarding government, destroyed all of the dark lord's horcruxes, sacrificed himself to save everyone in the castle, and then defeated the dark lord after returning from the crossroads of life and death. Stupid slacker that kid. And to think he dropped out his seventh year.

Oh! And lazy Hermione only charmed some coins with a spell beyond NEWT level in their fifth year, created a bag of holding, and had mastered every defensive charm to take them completely off the grid. Clearly she's not that talented at all.

You just rolled a 1 for hitting the point. What did they do to advance the art of magic? What magical gear did they leave behind for other students? The fact that Hermione was so skilled only highlights this issue.


And there is nothing to say they do.

Yeah, one of the final casualties of Voldermort's reign of terror? Yeah, tossup as to whether he's widely known or obscure lore. And don't bring up real life examples of people in RL knowing little about their heroes. 1. Our society has not been threatened for quite some time. 2. Our society is a whole lot larger than the wizarding community.


People's brains just don't work that way. If they wouldn't recognize the person by name chances are even if they did see him he was simply ignored. Again, you'd have to be Sherlock Holmes to observe that without prior knowledge.

You cannot expect "the human brain doesn't work that way" to stretch across multiple years regarding someone they knew. If they weren't Ron's or Percy's brothers or friends, sure. A random stranger I can see that. But not for a family member.

Xondoure
2012-07-24, 03:27 PM
You just rolled a 1 for hitting the point. What did they do to advance the art of magic? What magical gear did they leave behind for other students?

My point was they were a little busy saving the world every year to make a magical map, or try and learn how to become animagi. And I for one would love to use any of Hermione's old textbooks were I to study magic. Or more simply, what gives you the impression that magical ability has dropped in the past decade? Hermione is often mentioned as one of the best and brightest Hogwarts has ever seen, and Harry was teaching other students defense against the dark arts spells it appears many adult wizards can't seem to manage. Besides if you want to see someone who would leave a mark like Jame's rag tag quartet look no further than a certain Weasley duo. There are your inventors.


Yeah, one of the final casualties of Voldermort's reign of terror? Yeah, tossup as to whether he's widely known or obscure lore. And don't bring up real life examples of people in RL knowing little about their heroes. 1. Our society has not been threatened for quite some time. 2. Our society is a whole lot larger than the wizarding community.

Leaving aside you've switched from secret love affair to recognizing famous martyr, I'll repeat that human brains still don't work that way. Even if they recognized the name, they still might fail to make the connection. And chances are they wouldn't be reading the name. The chances of that happening is what makes it a toss up, and not in favor of the twins recognizing, remembering, and investigating until they figured it out. Because even if they did by some miracle see the name and think it very odd, once they tracked down the name and no one was there they'd either assume the map was faulty, or they were chasing a ghost and think no more of it.

Nekura
2012-07-24, 03:34 PM
You just rolled a 1 for hitting the point. What did they do to advance the art of magic? What magical gear did they leave behind for other students?

Exactly. Hermione was constantly doing spells above her year I am not saying she wasn’t skilled just that it’s odd she never invented anything with all the research she does. As for Harry yes he has a lot of power and skill but most of what he did was through luck and Hermione researching what spells for him to learn for the tournament. No innovative discoveries to his name.

Triwizard tournament? Well I’ll give you the first two tasks because other then a bit of information that was given to Harry he pulled it off himself but in the maze a contestant was under the imperious taking out Harry’s competition and let Harry stun Krum because they wanted Harry to win so forcing Krum to fight Harry wouldn’t make sense. Most heavily guarded department of the wizarding government? Well maybe it should have been but if it was supposed to be it was a case of telling us and not showing us. There was nothing in the books showing us how well guarded it was.

I am not saying Harry didn’t accomplish amazing things. The fact that Snape was going to weasel his way to getting an undeserved Order of Merlin in POA while Harry is going around killing basilisks and preventing the school from closing yet not even a rumor of him being awarded one is a crime. But for all Harry and Hermione did there was nothing to indicate the education they received allowed them to know the theory and technicalities behind magic to invent new spells.

Boci
2012-07-24, 03:35 PM
Leaving aside you've switched from secret love affair to recognizing famous martyr, I'll repeat that human brains still don't work that way. Even if they recognized the name, they still might fail to make the connection.

"Hey, there's a kid here who has the same name as that hero who died defending him from you know who."

I think that a pretty likely.


The chances of that happening is what makes it a toss up, and not in favor of the twins recognizing, remembering, and investigating until they figured it out.

More likely than any of the following things happening:

"Hey, there's a kid here who has the same name as that hero who died defending him from you know who. He sleeps in the same room as Harry. Let's at least mention this to him."

"Hey, Ron is sleeping with the same person Percy was. Let's at least tease him about."

Also on the subject: Why wasn't Peter mentioned in book 1 or 2?

Nekura
2012-07-24, 03:59 PM
Leaving aside you've switched from secret love affair to recognizing famous martyr, I'll repeat that human brains still don't work that way. Even if they recognized the name, they still might fail to make the connection. And chances are they wouldn't be reading the name. The chances of that happening is what makes it a toss up, and not in favor of the twins recognizing, remembering, and investigating until they figured it out. Because even if they did by some miracle see the name and think it very odd, once they tracked down the name and no one was there they'd either assume the map was faulty, or they were chasing a ghost and think no more of it.

I was the one who started it and hadn't said anything about love affairs I just said they should have noticed Peter. You are the one who switched from there is no way that they would seen the name, to they would just assume it was another Gryffindor in Ron's year despite the small amount of kids in Gryffindor that year and the twins would have seen all of them at the opening feast, to they wouldn't care about a guy sleeping in either of their brothers beds, to there is no way they would ever have heard Peters name before even with Sirius Black's "crime" being quite infamous, to minds just don't work that way. This one thing takes a lot of hand waving to ignore and it's not the only thing in the books that require it. Adding everything together it's hard for us to believe your statement that it's obvious that JKR had everything well planned out from the beginning. You are entitled to your opinion just like we are to ours. I am not one who spends a lot of time digging up quotes but I don't think even JKR claimed she had much at all planned from the beginning.

Xondoure
2012-07-24, 04:05 PM
Exactly. Hermione was constantly doing spells above her year I am not saying she wasn’t skilled just that it’s odd she never invented anything with all the research she does. As for Harry yes he has a lot of power and skill but most of what he did was through luck and Hermione researching what spells for him to learn for the tournament. No innovative discoveries to his name.

Triwizard tournament? Well I’ll give you the first two tasks because other then a bit of information that was given to Harry he pulled it off himself but in the maze a contestant was under the imperious taking out Harry’s competition and let Harry stun Krum because they wanted Harry to win so forcing Krum to fight Harry wouldn’t make sense. Most heavily guarded department of the wizarding government? Well maybe it should have been but if it was supposed to be it was a case of telling us and not showing us. There was nothing in the books showing us how well guarded it was.

I am not saying Harry didn’t accomplish amazing things. The fact that Snape was going to weasel his way to getting an undeserved Order of Merlin in POA while Harry is going around killing basilisks and preventing the school from closing yet not even a rumor of him being awarded one is a crime. But for all Harry and Hermione did there was nothing to indicate the education they received allowed them to know the theory and technicalities behind magic to invent new spells.

Fred and George did just fine and they barely attended their classes. :smalltongue: Comparing the trio to three or four highly gifted students from a different year and claiming the school has lost it's edge is just plain silly.

@Boci: Them seeing the name at all is unlikely. Seriously if I handed you a moving image with the names of hundreds and hundreds of people about 35% of which you know off hand and others you didn't and you spent the whole day looking at it not knowing that there was one name there who belonged to someone who logically shouldn't be alive or in that location the chances of anyone finding that name and thinking it suspicious, especially when they're using the map to navigate the secret corridors and avoid detection are very very low.

If you did, and out of curiosity decided to track it down but upon arriving at its location found nothing there you might think it odd, but the chances of mentioning that to the right people when your classic troublemakers are again very low.

You saying other scenarios seem more likely to you are simply your subjective view of the characters. I personally don't really see any of those scenarios fitting but that's still beside the point. Because one in a million things happen all the time in stories and are often plot points rather than holes, so the chances of what happening in the books happening, as long as it's not zero means that there is no plot hole.

From a more subjective point I think the chances of what happened happening are in favor of the twins not noticing, so not only do I not consider it a plot hole, but it doesn't even come across to me as an implausible plot point.

Edit@Nekura: My apologies I seem to be getting posters confused. Did Scabbers sleep in Ron's bed every night? I was under the impression he had a cage. Also, subjectively the twins don't seem like the type to bother remembering everyone's names, and again the whole probability thing and selective sight I've mentioned countless times before by now. In the end, even reality is unrealistic if looked upon from that perspective.

Boci
2012-07-24, 04:08 PM
@Boci: Them seeing the name at all is unlikely. Seriously if I handed you a moving image with the names of hundreds and hundreds of people about 35% of which you know off hand and others you didn't and you spent the whole day looking at it not knowing that there was one name there who belonged to someone who logically shouldn't be alive or in that location the chances of anyone finding that name and thinking it suspicious, especially when they're using the map to navigate the secret corridors and avoid detection are very very low.

I'm pretty sure I would notice the name Elvis Presley in my brother's dorm room eventually (give it a couple of months), and that would suspicious, doubly so I had noticed but not acted on the presents of the name being in my older brother's dorm room as well. At the very least I would quiz him about it.

Also, no comment on Peter only existing in books 3-7?

Nekura
2012-07-24, 04:15 PM
Fred and George did just fine and they barely attended their classes. :smalltongue: Comparing the trio to three or four highly gifted students from a different year and claiming the school has lost it's edge is just plain silly.


Edit@Nekura: My apologies I seem to be getting posters confused. Did Scabbers sleep in Ron's bed every night? I was under the impression he had a cage. Also, subjectively the twins don't seem like the type to bother remembering everyone's names, and again the whole probability thing and selective sight I've mentioned countless times before by now. In the end, even reality is unrealistic if looked upon from that perspective.

Putting up the twins being inventors as an example that the school hasn’t lost it’s edge while at the same time saying they hardly ever attended classes is what’s silly. Are you saying the school never had an edge and that those “highly gifted students from a different year” skipped most of their classes and their accomplishments are all on their own merit and have nothing to do with the school?

I don’t remember a cage for Ron’s rat in the beginning of the books. He kept it in his pocket on the train. He might have bought a cage latter on in the books or perhaps the movies had him in a cage.

Xondoure
2012-07-24, 04:17 PM
I'm pretty sure I would notice the name Elvis Presley in my brother's dorm room eventually (give it a couple of months), and that would suspicious, doubly so I had noticed but not acted on the presents of the name being in my older brother's dorm room as well. At the very least I would quiz him about it.

Also, no comment on Peter only existing in books 3-7?

What do you mean? Scabbers was there from book 1. It's a fantastic... what's the actual trope name for a chekov's gun when it's not referring to conservation of detail?

Boci
2012-07-24, 04:18 PM
What do you mean? Scabbers was there from book 1. It's a fantastic... what's the actual trope name for a chekov's gun when it's not referring to conservation of detail?

"Hey should I mention to Harry that hero who died trying to protect him from You-Know-Who? No, best wait until Sirius Black escapes from Azkaban,"

Xondoure
2012-07-24, 04:26 PM
"Hey should I mention to Harry that hero who died trying to protect him from You-Know-Who? No, best wait until Sirius Black escapes from Azkaban,"

That's not so much a plot hole and more a side effect of everyone sort of forgetting that Harry is clueless about the wizarding world. I mean if you go back and read the first book Hagrid mostly avoided telling Harry about what happened to his parents as much as he could. Because the kid was eleven, and Hagrid's rather soft at times. Once he's in the school people are constantly bewildered by what he does and doesn't know. Which is rather typical of protagonists in general. :smalltongue:

Boci
2012-07-24, 04:33 PM
That's not so much a plot hole and more a side effect of everyone sort of forgetting that Harry is clueless about the wizarding world. I mean if you go back and read the first book Hagrid mostly avoided telling Harry about what happened to his parents as much as he could. Because the kid was eleven, and Hagrid's rather soft at times. Once he's in the school people are constantly bewildered by what he does and doesn't know. Which is rather typical of protagonists in general. :smalltongue:

No. Sure it could have taken a while, but they told him about his parents and many other things, there is no way they are waiting two years to tell him about the only over person who died as a direct result of trying to protect him from You-Know-Who. You are doing all the other characters a disservice by assuming they would be so forgetting of such a loyal martyr.

Nekura
2012-07-24, 04:33 PM
"Hey should I mention to Harry that hero who died trying to protect him from You-Know-Who? No, best wait until Sirius Black escapes from Azkaban,"

That's not all that good of an argument for no one mention Peter. Most of Harry's friends wouldn't know what he has or hasn't been told about his family or the wizarding world. Might as well ask why he was never told about Sirius betraying his parents before he escaped. Now Dumbledore is the one who knowing placed Harry at a home where he would be abused and grow up knowing nothing about his family or the wizarding world. Why Dumbledore or McGonagall never help Harry learn more about his family and the wizarding world would be a better question. However most of the weird actions of Dumbledore can be explained if you ignore JKR's insistence that Dumbledore is good despite the fact Dumbledore admitted to knowing the Dursleys would abuse Harry before he place him with them, knew about it after the fact, and still forced him to go back year after year and realize Dumbledore isn't a kind grandfatherly figure but one evil SOB.

Gnoman
2012-07-24, 04:38 PM
Nearly all the people Harry deals with are kids. No matter how important it was, very few people in that age group are going to really care about one person who died at the end of a war that was ending around the time they were born. As for the adults, the few who seem to know the full details have shown a very prominent desire to avoid causing Harry emotional pain.

Xondoure
2012-07-24, 04:38 PM
No. Sure it could have taken a while, but they told him about his parents and many other things, there is no way they are waiting two years to tell him about the only over person who died as a direct result of trying to protect him from You-Know-Who. You are doing all the other characters a disservice by assuming they would be so forgetting of such a loyal martyr.

This is your subjective view on the matter. You are entitled to it. I have already given mine, and it seems we disagree.

Boci
2012-07-25, 06:12 AM
As for the adults, the few who seem to know the full details have shown a very prominent desire to avoid causing Harry emotional pain.

Yes, that's why you tell in as much detail as possible how an 11 year old's parents were murdered (when he had until then believed they died in a car accident), whilest he is still reeling from the fact that he is a wizard, oh and then add on that he is the chosen one. Yeah, with such a good job there of minimizing the mental pain and trauma it would be a shame to ruin it all by bludgeoning him over the head with a third name of a hero who died trying to protect him. Well done adults of the Poetterverse.


This is your subjective view on the matter. You are entitled to it. I have already given mine, and it seems we disagree.

I just find it really hard to believe that is how you genuinly feel on the matter as oppose to that it how you twist it to cover a plot hole. Sorry, just how I feel.

Two yreas and no one gently raises the subject of "Do you know who Peter is?"? I cannot understand how that can be believable in any way, shape or form.

Killer Angel
2012-07-25, 06:33 AM
Two yreas and no one gently raises the subject of "Do you know who Peter is?"? I cannot understand how that can be believable in any way, shape or form.

This exact phrase could be pasted in the "What breaks your suspension of disbelief?" thread...

Boci
2012-07-25, 06:47 AM
This exact phrase could be pasted in the "What breaks your suspension of disbelief?" thread...

But the context would be different. As I said before that snippet, this isn't a personal matter for me.

Math_Mage
2012-07-25, 06:48 AM
It breaks my suspension of disbelief that Harry uses so few spells in six years at Hogwarts. There's a reason why most magic systems in literature don't take the time to delineate every spell by individual name.

mangosta71
2012-07-25, 09:35 AM
That's not so much a plot hole and more a side effect of everyone sort of forgetting that Harry is clueless about the wizarding world. I mean if you go back and read the first book Hagrid mostly avoided telling Harry about what happened to his parents as much as he could. Because the kid was eleven, and Hagrid's rather soft at times. Once he's in the school people are constantly bewildered by what he does and doesn't know. Which is rather typical of protagonists in general. :smalltongue:
Except that a more typical conversation would start with:
F&G: "Hey, someone named Peter Pettigrew is in your dorm!"
H: "Who's Peter Pettigrew?"

As obvious as Harry makes his interest in learning about his parents, I can't believe that his friends wouldn't tell him about their supposed best friend still being around. Even if Peter turns out to be a ghost, he would be the sort of fountain of information that Harry thinks he craves. They would certainly tell him, and their surprise would come from the fact that Harry doesn't recognize the name or know what he's famous for. Bear in mind that, even though Hagrid is a big softy, he does tell Harry that Voldemort murdered the Potters before the first school year starts, even if he doesn't go into detail. A man who supposedly gave his life trying to protect them would be of immense interest to Harry.

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 01:59 PM
Except that a more typical conversation would start with:
F&G: "Hey, someone named Peter Pettigrew is in your dorm!"
H: "Who's Peter Pettigrew?"

As obvious as Harry makes his interest in learning about his parents, I can't believe that his friends wouldn't tell him about their supposed best friend still being around. Even if Peter turns out to be a ghost, he would be the sort of fountain of information that Harry thinks he craves. They would certainly tell him, and their surprise would come from the fact that Harry doesn't recognize the name or know what he's famous for. Bear in mind that, even though Hagrid is a big softy, he does tell Harry that Voldemort murdered the Potters before the first school year starts, even if he doesn't go into detail. A man who supposedly gave his life trying to protect them would be of immense interest to Harry.

I've already given my reasons why I find it suspect at best that Fred and George would have noticed, thought of and/or acted upon the name Peter Pettigrew. What you are quoting was a response to why no one else mentioned him or Sirius Black to Harry before Sirius escaped from Askaban. And I stand by it, while throwing on a side note about how the whole wizarding world seems to be perfectly willing to glorify Harry's survival while trying desperately to forget every horrible thing ever done to them by putting their fingers in their ears and singing "lalalalalala." That along with everyone already expecting Harry to know this stuff (and for that matter, madam Rosmerta having to be told how the story was connected to the Potters death. As far as the world knows it's quite possible the two incidents were never publicly connected) is enough for me to buy that Harry wasn't told until the person "responsible" for the tragedy was at large.

Emmerask
2012-07-25, 02:22 PM
Except that a more typical conversation would start with:
F&G: "Hey, someone named Peter Pettigrew is in your dorm!"
H: "Who's Peter Pettigrew?"

As obvious as Harry makes his interest in learning about his parents, I can't believe that his friends wouldn't tell him about their supposed best friend still being around. Even if Peter turns out to be a ghost, he would be the sort of fountain of information that Harry thinks he craves. They would certainly tell him, and their surprise would come from the fact that Harry doesn't recognize the name or know what he's famous for. Bear in mind that, even though Hagrid is a big softy, he does tell Harry that Voldemort murdered the Potters before the first school year starts, even if he doesn't go into detail. A man who supposedly gave his life trying to protect them would be of immense interest to Harry.

But they never saw or even checked Harrys dorm room with the map, so maybe a bit of unusual behavior, though fred and gorge have not that much interest in pranking their brother or harry tbh, so even that can be argued.
But thats certainly no plot hole.

mangosta71
2012-07-25, 02:46 PM
That's just preposterous. Everyone at Hogwarts with Sirius, James, Lupin, and Peter knew that they were inseparable friends. The Daily Prophet would have covered the trial that sentenced Sirius to Azkaban, and that juicy little tidbit would have been revealed to the entire wizarding world. Given Harry's upbringing, it's reasonable to say that he probably didn't know the name Peter Pettigrew. But someone that was raised in the magical world? No way. Fred and George would know. And this isn't the sort of thing that they wouldn't bring up because they assume he already knows. And you expect me to believe that the bartender wasn't up on the gossip? That she somehow hadn't heard of Sirius and Peter before Dumbledore went to the tavern that night months after Sirius had escaped?

Boci
2012-07-25, 02:47 PM
But they never saw or even checked Harrys dorm room with the map, so maybe a bit of unusual behavior, though fred and gorge have not that much interest in pranking their brother or harry tbh, so even that can be argued.
But thats certainly no plot hole.

Fred and George never checking on the most famous person in the wizarding world? The one who everyone is drooling over? That isn't a plot hole?

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 02:52 PM
That's just preposterous. Everyone at Hogwarts with Sirius, James, Lupin, and Peter knew that they were inseparable friends. The Daily Prophet would have covered the trial that sentenced Sirius to Azkaban, and that juicy little tidbit would have been revealed to the entire wizarding world. Given Harry's upbringing, it's reasonable to say that he probably didn't know the name Peter Pettigrew. But someone that was raised in the magical world? No way. Fred and George would know. And this isn't the sort of thing that they wouldn't bring up because they assume he already knows. And you expect me to believe that the bartender wasn't up on the gossip? That she somehow hadn't heard of Sirius and Peter before Dumbledore went to the tavern that night months after Sirius had escaped?

You're forgetting the "Lalalalalalalalalalala" part. :smalltongue: The Wizarding World doesn't really seem to have a great deal of "we must never forget" attitude, it's more of a "please, please let us forget." People just don't talk about the uprising any more than they have to. That's consistent throughout the books.

Boci
2012-07-25, 02:54 PM
You're forgetting the "Lalalalalalalalalalala" part. :smalltongue: The Wizarding World doesn't really seem to have a great deal of "we must never forget" attitude, it's more of a "please, please let us forget." People just don't talk about the uprising any more than they have to. That's consistent throughout the books.

Ritta was a popular journalist, so presumable people read her stuff and she in turn knew what they wanted, and she wasn't trying to hide or ignore anything in book 4. What exactly is making you think the wizarding world is trying to forget in books 1-4?

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 02:56 PM
Ritta was a popular journalist, so presumable people read her stuff and she in turn knew what they wanted, and she wasn't trying to hide or ignore anything in book 4. What exactly is making you think the wizarding world is trying to forget in books 1-4?

It's been eleven years and the wizarding world isn't even close to being able to speak the word Voldemort.

Boci
2012-07-25, 02:57 PM
It's been eleven years and the wizarding world isn't even close to being able to speak the word Voldemort.

Magical world, names have power. And its not as if the phrase You-Know-Who isn't mentioned a lot. That speaks more to the fact that they have not forgotten Voldermorts reign of terror.

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 03:01 PM
Magical world, names have power. And its not as if the phrase You-Know-Who isn't mentioned a lot. That speaks more to the fact that they have not forgotten Voldermorts reign of terror.

They haven't forgotten it, and they don't talk about it if they can help it. And the whole point is that that particular name only has as much power as people themselves put in it (until it's taboo'd later on.) That's not the same as reading Ritta Skeeter sensationalize the boy who lived. The entire wizarding world was traumatized by Tom Riddle's rise to power. It's not that surprising that no one really talks about it with Harry.

Emmerask
2012-07-25, 03:40 PM
Fred and George never checking on the most famous person in the wizarding world? The one who everyone is drooling over? That isn't a plot hole?

Why should they?
Especially why should they during the night time ie the time he is in the dorm? At any other time the rat might not have been with Ron so thats not important.

That would be very very disturbing
If they would be some kind of Harry fandom stalkers then maybe but while at first in awe that they met Harry Potter and then proud that he joins their house, they have never shown any such extreme interest in him ^^

Sure if they see him leave the dorm at odd hours they might be curious what hes up to... that would pretty much be the only situation where I could see them do this.

Gnoman
2012-07-25, 04:10 PM
Yes, that's why you tell in as much detail as possible how an 11 year old's parents were murdered (when he had until then believed they died in a car accident), whilest he is still reeling from the fact that he is a wizard, oh and then add on that he is the chosen one. Yeah, with such a good job there of minimizing the mental pain and trauma it would be a shame to ruin it all by bludgeoning him over the head with a third name of a hero who died trying to protect him. Well done adults of the Poetterverse.



There's actually a pretty good reason for this. In books 1 and 2, it's a dead matter, so there's no reason to bring it up. In the third book, when they go to tell him, he replies that he already knows. In truth, the information Arthur gave him barely scratched the surface of what was believed to be true, but McGonnagal would logically assume that he heard the entire story.

mangosta71
2012-07-25, 04:34 PM
Why should they?
Especially why should they during the night time ie the time he is in the dorm? At any other time the rat might not have been with Ron so thats not important.
Night is exactly when they would be using the Map to sneak around without getting caught. They might not be looking specifically for Ron or Harry, but they would need to be checking the dorm area to make sure the coast is clear before trying to sneak in or out.

Emmerask
2012-07-25, 04:51 PM
afaik the griffindor dorm area consists of multiple levels, they would check the common room and Percys room, from which you apparently can´t see Harrys room on the map (due to the layers).

Boci
2012-07-25, 07:06 PM
afaik the griffindor dorm area consists of multiple levels, they would check the common room and Percys room, from which you apparently can´t see Harrys room on the map (due to the layers).

This point has already been raised. Not only is such a limitation of the map never mentioned (Harry always knows which floor the dot it on, and sees the dots even when he would have no reason to be looking at that specific area), but such a flaw would render the map largely useless given how many floors Hogwarts has.

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 07:14 PM
It should be noted the twins claim to have long since stopped using the map by the time they pass it off to Harry. And even then when they had used it to get a feel for the corridors and after that it was mostly used to avoid detection from Filch or Snape. They couldn't care less about any Gryffindors sitting in the common room. It's still only a side issue as opposed to the larger one of them needing far above average observational skills for this to be implausible.

Emmerask
2012-07-25, 08:10 PM
This point has already been raised. Not only is such a limitation of the map never mentioned (Harry always knows which floor the dot it on, and sees the dots even when he would have no reason to be looking at that specific area), but such a flaw would render the map largely useless given how many floors Hogwarts has.

But it makes the point even more valid at the same time, Fred and Gorge never have shown any particular obsession with Harry.
So there is zero reason for the map to "zoom in" on Harrys dorm room.
It would zoom in on the common room, its entrances/stairs/floors etc but not the other sleeping rooms that may be 2 floors up or down.
And maybe it would show the prefects sleeping room with its inhabitants.

Oh and Xondoure already said it was mentioned that they stopped using the map a long time ago.

Boci
2012-07-25, 08:29 PM
But it makes the point even more valid at the same time, Fred and Gorge never have shown any particular obsession with Harry.

Weren't they interested in the train scene? And even if they weren't, your telling me they never would have used the map to check the location of the most famous kid in school over the course of 2 years?


So there is zero reason for the map to "zoom in" on Harrys dorm room.
It would zoom in on the common room, its entrances/stairs/floors etc but not the other sleeping rooms that may be 2 floors up or down.
And maybe it would show the prefects sleeping room with its inhabitants.

Where they would have seen Peter with Percy.


Oh and Xondoure already said it was mentioned that they stopped using the map a long time ago.

Which they would have said regardless of whether it it true or false.


There's actually a pretty good reason for this. In books 1 and 2, it's a dead matter, so there's no reason to bring it up.

Yeah because why talk about someone once they are dead, especially if they died heroically.

Partof1
2012-07-25, 08:55 PM
Well, they're middle/highschoolers. There are tons of those in real life, and thus, presumably in HP Land, that don't give a flying fruitbat about celebrities.

They met him, it was nifty, but they moved on.

It's perfectly probable that they took no interest in Harry, or Ron for that matter, beyond the fact that they shared a house with them.

Just because the way they handle the situation does not match the way you would have does not make it a plot hole.

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 08:56 PM
Weren't they interested in the train scene? And even if they weren't, your telling me they never would have used the map to check the location of the most famous kid in school over the course of 2 years?

Where they would have seen Peter with Percy.

Which they would have said regardless of whether it it true or false.

Yeah because why talk about someone once they are dead, especially if they died heroically.

We've once more gotten to the point where everything is your subjective view of how characters should act rather than what they should see. The difference being the first is a personal hang up, and the second a hole in the plot fabric.

Gnoman
2012-07-25, 08:58 PM
Yeah because why talk about someone once they are dead, especially if they died heroically.

After twelve years, it's pretty much guaranteed that people won't bring things up very much, unless something happens to bring the subject up.

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 09:01 PM
After twelve years, it's pretty much guaranteed that people won't bring things up very much, unless something happens to bring the subject up.

Not to mention all talk of that time is rather dwarfed by the story of Harry Potter himself.

Partof1
2012-07-25, 09:06 PM
He is "The Boy Who Lived", after all. Not "The Son of Some Cool People Who Died Unjustly"

Boci
2012-07-25, 09:13 PM
We've once more gotten to the point where everything is your subjective view of how characters should act rather than what they should see. The difference being the first is a personal hang up, and the second a hole in the plot fabric.

Forgive me for expecting a community to honour its heroes. Yeah, clearly a personal hangup and in no way a plot hole.

Some things I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Like why did Harry never research the subject himself? I can buy that he didn't want to. Why didn't they tell him about Sirius Black? I can see that people felt there was no need. The killer was locked away.

But when I have to believe that Goeorge and Fred for two years never saw the name Peter Pettigrew in the dorm of their brother, and the most famous kid in school, and that this hero was never mentioned until his killer escaped. Nope, too much. Plot hole.

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 09:15 PM
Forgive me for expecting a community to honour its heroes. Yeah, clearly a personal hangup and in no way a plot hole.

You have to realize, Peter Pettigrew isn't considered a hero. He's merely another victim albeit, one who was close to the Potters. There were a lot of victims.

Boci
2012-07-25, 09:18 PM
You have to realize, Peter Pettigrew isn't considered a hero. He's merely another victim albeit, one who was close to the Potters. There were a lot of victims.

And do you know why we know there were many victims apart from just common sense? Because we are told about them. They are named. But not the family friend who died foolishly trying to avenge their death.

On a side note, I am curious. Do you just not agree with the plot holes that have been brought up so far, or are you eager to challenge any claim of a plot hole?

Partof1
2012-07-25, 09:23 PM
A personal friend trying and failing to avenge death is honourable, yes, but to the public, not enough to become a household name.

When a notable person in our world is killed, the names that are remembered are those of the victim, and the killer, not the avenger, let alone one who failed.

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 09:24 PM
And do you know why we know there were many victims apart from just common sense? Because we are told about them. They are named. But not the family friend who died foolishly trying to avenge their death.

On a side note, I am curious. Do you just not agree with the plot holes that have been brought up so far, or are you eager to challenge any claim of a plot hole?

You think we came close to learning the names of all the victims? And we certainly didn't by book 3.

Boci
2012-07-25, 09:27 PM
A personal friend trying and failing to avenge death is honourable, yes, but to the public, not enough to become a household name.

That is strange, because the way people were talking about him in book 3, he certainly seemed to be house hold name.

Also, any RL parallel is an inappropriate example. 1. our society is a lot larger than the wizarding one. 2. Our society has not been threatened for quite some time.


You think we came close to learning the names of all the victims? And we certainly didn't by book 3.

All of them? Of course not. But enough to make it suspect that a family friend went unmentioned.

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 09:32 PM
That is strange, because the way people were talking about him in book 3, he certainly seemed to be house hold name.

Also, any RL parallel is an inappropriate example. 1. our society is a lot larger than the wizarding one. 2. Our society has not been threatened for quite some time.

All of them? Of course not. But enough to make it suspect that a family friend went unmentioned.

Adults who were around during that time knowing the gruesome details is to be expected. It's sort of implied most kids don't know much about the horrors of the Dark Lord's rise to power. Mostly because their parents are too scared to talk about it. I mean no one really caught on to the fact that Neville's parents were once Aurors on the front line either. That's not a plot hole, but a consistent portrayal of wizarding culture throughout the story.

And funnily enough Harry's reaction was about the same as yours. "Why didn't anyone tell me about this?" The answer being he's a thirteen year old orphan.

Boci
2012-07-25, 09:37 PM
Adults who were around during that time knowing the gruesome details is to be expected. It's sort of implied most kids don't know much about the horrors of the Dark Lord's rise to power. Mostly because their parents are too scared to talk about it. I mean no one really caught on to the fact that Neville's parents were once Aurors on the front line either. That's not a plot hole, but a consistent portrayal of wizarding culture throughout the story.

Not an appropriate example. Aurors are SWAT for dark wizards. It makes sense their information isn't public knowledge. If anything the slip up there is how willing the nurse was to disclose their medical information. Apparently wizards don't have doctor patient confidentiality. Although that would probably make sense given that the wizard live in the early middle age in many ways.


And funnily enough Harry's reaction was about the same as yours. "Why didn't anyone tell me about this?" The answer being he's a thirteen year old orphan.

And that answer doesn't make any sense, because the story of Peter pales in comparison to the story of a family friend.

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 09:48 PM
Not an appropriate example. Aurors are SWAT for dark wizards. It makes sense their information isn't public knowledge. If anything the slip up there is how willing the nurse was to disclose their medical information. Apparently wizards don't have doctor patient confidentiality. Although that would probably make sense given that the wizard live in the early middle age in many ways.

And that answer doesn't make any sense, because the story of Peter pales in comparison to the story of a family friend.

Recall just how little Harry knew about his parents at that point. And who was going to tell him? Hagrid's too soft, and he doesn't yet have the more casual attitude he would later adopt with Dumbledore. Mcgonagall possibly but part of her professionalism makes her rather removed.

The way events unfolded just doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

Boci
2012-07-25, 09:54 PM
Recall just how little Harry knew about his parents at that point. And who was going to tell him?

Any one of the hundreds of teenagers at Hogwarts, the Weasleys, the people who insisted on shaking his hand.


Hagrid's too soft

Harry your a wizard. Oh and you parents didn't die in a car accident. They were murdered. By the most powerful dark wizard ever known. He was trying to kill you. Whilst we are one the subject, Santa Claus doesn't exist and a third of all marriages end in divorce.


and he doesn't yet have the more casual attitude he would later adopt with Dumbledore.

They had a reasonably cosy chat about things in general at the end of book one.

Xondoure
2012-07-25, 10:14 PM
Any one of the hundreds of teenagers at Hogwarts, the Weasleys, the people who insisted on shaking his hand.

Harry your a wizard. Oh and you parents didn't die in a car accident. They were murdered. By the most powerful dark wizard ever known. He was trying to kill you. Whilst we are one the subject, Santa Claus doesn't exist and a third of all marriages end in divorce.

They had a reasonably cosy chat about things in general at the end of book one.

Right, because the strangers so often said more than "an honor, such an honor to meet you. Truly delighted." Hagrid said what he had to, and was appalled that he had to say that much, him thinking the Dursleys were semi decent people. Looking at the Dumbledore conversations, where does it naturally seem to lend itself to "Harry my boy, let's talk about all the horrible things that ever happened to people vaguely related to you. It would be inconvenient and contrived if you didn't learn this now after all."

The Extinguisher
2012-07-26, 12:23 AM
I'm honestly wondering why it's even a big deal to begin with? I mean, if you're suspension of disbelief is so fragile that nitpicks like this break it, maybe you shouldn't be reading fantasy books for kids expecting verisimilitude.

And really, can you say that the books would be much better if Rowling went out of her way to explain why this didn't happen and that didn't happen? Sure, it might make for a more "realistic" world, but it would be a much more boring story.

Traab
2012-07-26, 12:34 PM
Because a lot of the "nitpicks" in the story dont need an involved explanation, even just an offhand comment would work fine. For example, the map. As fred and george are talking about it they say something like, "It stinks that when there are a lot of people in one spot, all the names kind of blur together on the map, but since we only use it to avoid teachers at night, its not that big of a deal."

There, a simple throw away sentence and now when people wonder why pettigrew wasnt noticed earlier we can say, "Oh, with all those people in the dorms, the names are hard to read, thats why they never noticed." Thats just something I threw together off the top of my head, but you get the idea. We dont need a 16 page thesis on the map and its functions and limitations, just enough to cover the authors butt on scenarios that imply heavy useage of the idiot ball to miss.

Xondoure
2012-07-26, 01:12 PM
Because a lot of the "nitpicks" in the story dont need an involved explanation, even just an offhand comment would work fine. For example, the map. As fred and george are talking about it they say something like, "It stinks that when there are a lot of people in one spot, all the names kind of blur together on the map, but since we only use it to avoid teachers at night, its not that big of a deal."

There, a simple throw away sentence and now when people wonder why pettigrew wasnt noticed earlier we can say, "Oh, with all those people in the dorms, the names are hard to read, thats why they never noticed." Thats just something I threw together off the top of my head, but you get the idea. We dont need a 16 page thesis on the map and its functions and limitations, just enough to cover the authors butt on scenarios that imply heavy useage of the idiot ball to miss.

But again, that's not how the human brain works. Missing a name on a map is a totally likely scenario. And I just thought of the perfect example: Where's Waldo?

Tyndmyr
2012-07-26, 01:23 PM
And do you know why we know there were many victims apart from just common sense? Because we are told about them. They are named. But not the family friend who died foolishly trying to avenge their death.

On a side note, I am curious. Do you just not agree with the plot holes that have been brought up so far, or are you eager to challenge any claim of a plot hole?

Here's the real justification for that...Sirius Black was apparently a household name. This really isn't set up well in advance, and thus, we don't really get a good sense for how much of a household name other people in the wizarding world are.

If harry potter and sirius black both are extremely well known for a singular story(by adults and children alike)...then in stands to reason that the other people in that story(peter pettigrew, harry's parents) are at least somewhat decently known. And in fact, we have plenty of justification for his parents.

If sirius black was NOT well known...then there'd be little reason to play up peter's element of the story, and the assumption has less grounding, but as it stands, everyone else is known because of this particular event, there is no reason to assume peter is an exception.

Boci
2012-07-26, 01:35 PM
Here's the real justification for that...Sirius Black was apparently a household name. This really isn't set up well in advance, and thus, we don't really get a good sense for how much of a household name other people in the wizarding world are.

If harry potter and sirius black both are extremely well known for a singular story(by adults and children alike)...then in stands to reason that the other people in that story(peter pettigrew, harry's parents) are at least somewhat decently known. And in fact, we have plenty of justification for his parents.

If sirius black was NOT well known...then there'd be little reason to play up peter's element of the story, and the assumption has less grounding, but as it stands, everyone else is known because of this particular event, there is no reason to assume peter is an exception.

It ultimatly boils down to what is probably (to me at least) a case of an auther adding things to a story once 1 or 2 books had already been published. And there is nothing wrong with that. Infact, its good. I would much rather read a book series with a couple of plot holes as new ideas are added midway trhough then 7 books all planned out before the first one is even written. Unless a lot of effort has been put in (and I doubt J.K. Rolling wanted to wait a decade between coming up with the idea and starting work on the first book), the new ideas will always enhance the expirience in a manner that more thn makes up for a couple of plot holes.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-26, 02:33 PM
It ultimatly boils down to what is probably (to me at least) a case of an auther adding things to a story once 1 or 2 books had already been published. And there is nothing wrong with that. Infact, its good. I would much rather read a book series with a couple of plot holes as new ideas are added midway trhough then 7 books all planned out before the first one is even written. Unless a lot of effort has been put in (and I doubt J.K. Rolling wanted to wait a decade between coming up with the idea and starting work on the first book), the new ideas will always enhance the expirience in a manner that more thn makes up for a couple of plot holes.

Realistically, yeah, that's what it is.

That said, some authors are really quite good at utilizing details from early books extremely well. I'd point to Butcher as an example of this...he most certainly did not have everything plotted out when he wrote the first Dresden Files, but he's shown an ability to develop a very complex, coherent world with a minimum of plot holes.

Nekura
2012-07-26, 03:17 PM
It ultimatly boils down to what is probably (to me at least) a case of an auther adding things to a story once 1 or 2 books had already been published. And there is nothing wrong with that. Infact, its good. I would much rather read a book series with a couple of plot holes as new ideas are added midway trhough then 7 books all planned out before the first one is even written. Unless a lot of effort has been put in (and I doubt J.K. Rolling wanted to wait a decade between coming up with the idea and starting work on the first book), the new ideas will always enhance the expirience in a manner that more thn makes up for a couple of plot holes.

Yeah I never said I didn’t like the books apart from the last few. A lot of book series aren’t thoroughly planed from the beginning that doesn’t necessarily make them bad. There were many things that don’t seemed plan one or two things can be ignored but they tend to pile up. I don’t know why the topic got so stuck on Peter but just having that one thing spark so much debate while there are many others tells it’s own story.

Take occlumency and legilimency for example. I am sure people will agree it became a major plot point for the story. Why then did qurrielmort not just take the information to get past fluffy from Hagrid’s head. I can hear the excuses already that Hagrid knew occlumency or that because he is half giant it wouldn’t work. But even after the books were finished and JKR feeds us tidbits of information as she likes to do none of that is even hinted at. We weren’t told how he got information on the other traps so I can see people saying well he probably used legilimency on them. Again no hints of that and he wouldn’t need to with how pathetic the traps were. If anyone is interest I found a somewhat amusing story of Hagrid teaching Harry Occlumency because Snape is such a horrible teacher. Just search Ffnet for Lessons with Hagrid by nothingpretentious.

Xondoure
2012-07-26, 04:30 PM
Yeah I never said I didn’t like the books apart from the last few. A lot of book series aren’t thoroughly planed from the beginning that doesn’t necessarily make them bad. There were many things that don’t seemed plan one or two things can be ignored but they tend to pile up. I don’t know why the topic got so stuck on Peter but just having that one thing spark so much debate while there are many others tells it’s own story.

Take occlumency and legilimency for example. I am sure people will agree it became a major plot point for the story. Why then did qurrielmort not just take the information to get past fluffy from Hagrid’s head. I can hear the excuses already that Hagrid knew occlumency or that because he is half giant it wouldn’t work. But even after the books were finished and JKR feeds us tidbits of information as she likes to do none of that is even hinted at. We weren’t told how he got information on the other traps so I can see people saying well he probably used legilimency on them. Again no hints of that and he wouldn’t need to with how pathetic the traps were. If anyone is interest I found a somewhat amusing story of Hagrid teaching Harry Occlumency because Snape is such a horrible teacher. Just search Ffnet for Lessons with Hagrid by nothingpretentious.

Quirrel is a legilimancer now?

Gnoman
2012-07-26, 04:31 PM
Both legilimancy and Occlumancy were described in the book as difficult talents, so it's reasonable that Quirrel simply couldn't do them. Second, they both were shown to require considerable willpower, something which Quirrell clearly lacks.

Boci
2012-07-26, 04:36 PM
Both legilimancy and Occlumancy were described in the book as difficult talents, so it's reasonable that Quirrel simply couldn't do them. Second, they both were shown to require considerable willpower, something which Quirrell clearly lacks.

Based on his cover?

Xondoure
2012-07-26, 04:37 PM
Based on his cover?

Based on how easily Voldemort made him his pawn.

Boci
2012-07-26, 04:41 PM
Based on how easily Voldemort made him his pawn.

Just how many details were we given about that? It happened off screen didn't it. Besides, a strong will and a willingness to serve the greatest dark wizard of all time are not mutually exclusive. Neither is naivety.

Xondoure
2012-07-26, 04:46 PM
Just how many details were we given about that? It happened off screen didn't it. Besides, a strong will and a willingness to serve the greatest dark wizard of all time are not mutually exclusive. Neither is naivety.

Sure, but assuming he's using legillimancy when it's an advanced technique with confirmed use by Voldemort, Snape, and Dumbledore when it's not even clear he had the prerequisites is again not a plot hole.

Nekura
2012-07-26, 04:48 PM
Quirrel is a legilimancer now?

Voldemort is. So that's the route you're gonna take? That that neither Quirrel or Voldemort possesing him can use legilimacny on Hagrid?


Originally Posted by Gnoman

Both legilimancy and Occlumancy were described in the book as difficult talents, so it's reasonable that Quirrel simply couldn't do them. Second, they both were shown to require considerable willpower, something which Quirrell clearly lacks.

How was he not shown to have willpower? Because he willing let Voldemort posses him? He only stuttered as a cover to make himself seem less threatening. I am sure many of the deatheaters would have been willing to do what Quirrel did.

Boci
2012-07-26, 04:50 PM
Sure, but assuming he's using legillimancy when it's an advanced technique with confirmed use by Voldemort, Snape, and Dumbledore when it's not even clear he had the prerequisites is again not a plot hole.

Sure, but then just say so, rather than starting a side debate about Quirrell's weak willpower. Adititonally, the fact that legillimancy isn't even mentioned before...it isn't a plot, but it is suspicious. Unless you've accepted the idea of the auther developing the series after book 1 was released.


Voldemort is. So that's the route you're gonna take? That that neither Quirrel or Voldemort possesing him can use legilimacny on Hagrid?

I don't think its a stretch to say so. He'd been on death door for 11 years. The diary was more threataning.

Xondoure
2012-07-26, 04:51 PM
Voldemort is. So that's the route you're gonna take? That that neither Quirrel or Voldemort possesing him can use legilimacny on Hagrid?

How was he not shown to have willpower? Because he willing let Voldemort posses him? He only stuttered as a cover to make himself seem less threatening. I am sure many of the deatheaters would have been willing to do what Quirrel did.

Voldemort is, and would indeed be able to tell Quirrel if Hagrid was lying. Of course, he'd have to say so when Hagrid wouldn't hear him. Easy solution? Get the man staggeringly drunk.

Nekura
2012-07-26, 05:02 PM
Sure, but assuming he's using legillimancy when it's an advanced technique with confirmed use by Voldemort, Snape, and Dumbledore when it's not even clear he had the prerequisites is again not a plot hole.

If you don’t want to call any of the things plot holes fine. But they still give some of us the idea everything wasn’t planed out which I already said wasn’t automatically a bad thing. If JKR suddenly comes up with a magic or item that she wants to use but didn’t take the time to think of when it could have been used in earlier books or would be a good idea for characters to use in latter books you can call it what you will. I didn’t call everything I brought up a plot hole just used it as an example of why I felt everything wasn’t carefully planed out from the beginning.

Xondoure
2012-07-26, 05:06 PM
Well, in regards to having the story planned out, I never intended to imply that the every detail was mapped come day 1. Just that the plot, prophecy, and so on was all there from day 1.

Chen
2012-07-27, 08:33 AM
Don't people know when Legilimancy is used on them? It certainly seemed that way when Snape was "training" Harry. Wouldn't have been very covert if Quirrel had done that to Hagrid (or anyone).

Fragenstein
2012-07-27, 08:52 AM
Don't people know when Legilimancy is used on them? It certainly seemed that way when Snape was "training" Harry. Wouldn't have been very covert if Quirrel had done that to Hagrid (or anyone).

Harry was given warning and instructions to resist the attempt -- Snape wasn't really trying to be subtle. It's possible that grand masters of the art might be harder to detect.

I got the impression that Harry was being taught how to maintain mental privacy for long-term protection. This would seem to match fictional 'psychic' standards where more experienced mind-readers can get away with more. Professor X or Dr. Tachyon and their ilk could always be pretty stealthy when they wanted.

Certainly Voldemort never really seemed to know when Harry was in his head, but that was under unusual circumstances.

Traab
2012-07-27, 12:13 PM
Keep in mind that hagrid showed in book 5 that as a half giant he is resistant to magic. He took a lot of stunners, and it just made him angry. Its possible that even if quirrelmort COULD use legilimancy, that it would take way too much power to force it through, and would be noticed. Especially since voldemort was very weak at the time. Quirrel didnt even think he could handle CHATTING with harry at the end of book 1. And even voldemort seemed to acknowledge his weakness, "I have strength enough for this." or something to that effect.

Boci
2012-07-27, 12:54 PM
Keep in mind that hagrid showed in book 5 that as a half giant he is resistant to magic. He took a lot of stunners, and it just made him angry.

Wasn't stunning called out as a specific spell giants were resistant to, as oppose to magic in general?

Traab
2012-07-27, 01:09 PM
Wasn't stunning called out as a specific spell giants were resistant to, as oppose to magic in general?

I think it was a general resistance to magic, like dragons or something.

Nekura
2012-07-28, 03:43 PM
Ok maybe someone can explain this. The reason Dumbledore was avoiding Harry and got Snape to teach him occulmency despite how horrible a teacher he is in general is Dumbledore was worried about Voldemort spying on him through the connection. If Dumbledore can't even be near Harry how is Harry hanging around with Snape the "spy" a good idea, shouldn't he be worried about Snape's "cover" being blown? If Harry learning occulmency was so important why not get him a competent teacher or at least someone doesn't hold a grudge for Harry's father and is capable of acting in a professional manor?

SaintRidley
2012-07-28, 07:26 PM
Ok maybe someone can explain this. The reason Dumbledore was avoiding Harry and got Snape to teach him occulmency despite how horrible a teacher he is in general is Dumbledore was worried about Voldemort spying on him through the connection. If Dumbledore can't even be near Harry how is Harry hanging around with Snape the "spy" a good idea, shouldn't he be worried about Snape's "cover" being blown? If Harry learning occulmency was so important why not get him a competent teacher or at least someone doesn't hold a grudge for Harry's father and is capable of acting in a professional manor?

Just a guess, but I think a few things are at play here.

Snape is, in Voldemort's mind, meant to be his spy. Dumbledore is probably gambling that Voldemort may not be trying to break into Snape's mind - he wants Dumbledore and Harry.

Harry has to learn, but Dumbledore can't risk making it seem that Harry will learn anything. So use Snape, so that Voldemort will be extra convinced that Harry won't learn. Unfortunately, Snape and Harry really don't mesh for obvious reasons and this is ultimately a point on which Dumbledore really messes up.

Dumbledore is a lot more valuable at this point than Snape. Dumbledore at this point is the only one who suspects about the Horcruxes. Snape doesn't know that Harry has to die; only Dumbledore does because only Dumbledore knows the prophecy and has had nearly fifteen years to puzzle it out. If Snape is found out, the Order loses its spy.

If Voldemort sees into Dumbledore, though, then the game is afoot long before Dumbledore is ready - Voldemort knows that the Horcruxes are suspected, Harry has no idea what he's up against, Voldemort will in the confrontation at the Dept. of Mysteries be trying even harder and will not stop until he does succeed in killing Dumbledore, (unknowingly) taking control of the Elder Wand in the process. Dumbledore ultimately makes the gamble on Snape because he is feeling vulnerable and his knowledge is too important to let slip.


It's only later that they realize that while Harry can see into Voldemort's mind and Voldemort has picked up on this, it does not appear that Voldemort can do the reverse. That's why Dumbledore, particularly when it's so important and there's so little time left for him to impart the knowledge, is so much more willing to work with Harry in the sixth book.

That's what I've managed to extrapolate from the text. Granted, it's been nearly five years since I last read one of the books.

Aedilred
2012-07-29, 06:43 PM
I think it boils down to a couple of factors. Firstly, Occlumency is a rare ability and Snape is awesome at it. It makes sense for Dumbledore to recruit the best-qualified person to teach it. Secondly, Snape is just about the person Dumbledore trusts best, especially with Harry's life (although how he's protected against a Polyjuiced Snape a la Moody I'm not sure; presumably he has). He doesn't want Harry's weakness getting around so he picks someone he not only trusts to look after Harry but also to keep his mouth shut. The only other options would be other ("inner circle") Order members, and it's unlikely that any of them (Sirius, say) would be anywhere near as good at Occlumency as Snape.

Unfortunately, while Dumbledore is pretty good with his assessment of Snape's character, he seems to have a blind spot when it comes to his teaching. Dumbledore seems to assume that anyone good at anything can teach it well. This is kind of assumed throughout the series for the most part: the teachers teach their personal magical specialisms. While McGonnagall and Flitwick can duel proficiently, they defer to the Defence teacher (even Lockhart, who they know to be useless, or Snape, whose capabilites they should surely know) in matters of combat. Snape is supremely talented with potions and a great Occlumens so Dumbledore seems to assume he can teach both. Maybe Snape is a good teacher to Slytherin potions prodigies; he's rubbish for everyone else. (Snape's real aptitude in teaching, inasmuch as he has one, seems to be for Defence, in fact, which might be the reason he wanted the job so much.)

Also, Dumbledore seems to view Harry and Snape's antagonism towards each other as something tireseome that they need to grow out of, without recognising its true nature. Snape will never betray or (really) harm Harry, but he hates him personally, and Harry knows this and has responded in kind. Putting the two of them in a room is not going to result in anything productive even if they both know that the cause is important: their personal chemistry is just too destructive.

mangosta71
2012-07-31, 11:12 AM
It makes sense for Voldemort to not be looking into Snape's mind - he's the trusted spy within the OotP, never suspected of being a triple agent, because Voldy has proven on at least a couple occasions that he has no concept of the love that motivates him. And even if he did, Snape could explain the layers of conflicting images as a necessary precaution against Dumbledore.

Other things that bug me, though - in their sixth year, Hogwarts students learn to cast silently. How often do we see people actually do that, though? And not students, but the adults who, presumably, have had that training.

Barty Crouch, Jr., during his masquerade as Moody, mentioned that most of the Death Eaters had claimed to only be acting under the Imperius curse after Voldemort's fall from power. That same year, Snape tells Harry that one drop of veritaserum would have Voldy spilling his secrets. If wizards can brew veritaserum, it should have been an easy matter to interrogate everyone after the first war ended and lock the true Death Eaters in Azkaban. Even if they only interrogated criminals (or suspected criminals) in such a manner, Sirius would have revealed Pettigrew's treachery and been found innocent, which means he would never have been sentenced. All the Death Eaters put away also makes it much more difficult for Voldy to return - no servant to resurrect him, no power base even if he somehow manages it.

The Extinguisher
2012-07-31, 11:40 AM
Snape was exaggerating to scare Harry. Veritaserum is actually hard to make, and is apparently easy to fake results with a powerful enough mind. It;s not permitted evidence in wizard trials (but it's not like most death eaters even got trials)

Aedilred
2012-07-31, 11:52 AM
It seems that veritaserum is difficult and expensive to brew, like the Wolfsbane potion. It might even be that Snape is the only person in the country capable of brewing it, especially if many powerful wizards were killed by (or were) Death Eaters. There might also be laws against employing it (or Legilimency, for that matter) in criminal cases. Although correct application of veritaserum would be invaluable, it might be that it's easy enough to imitate that its use would actually be a liability.

I also got the impression that the trials after the fall of Voldemort were basically show trials conducted by Crouch and weren't overly concerned with details like "justice" or "due process". If Harry's trial in OotP is anything to go by, even normal judicial proceedings are pretty cursory. I'm not sure Sirius even went to trial. Perhaps he pleaded guilty, or entered no plea, or perhaps Crouch just declared the evidence incontrovertible (especially with Dumbledore's - albeit circumstantial - word to support it) and sent him down without trial.

As for silent casting, again, I think it's something which requires an extra degree of concentration and/or proficiency, and in an everyday setting, or the heat of battle, many wizards either don't bother or lose their cool and start shouting. Even Snape doesn't bother when disarming Lockhart in the second book (although there are probably other reasons for that, both in and out of character). I think if nonverbal magic were an essential skill, it would be taught from first year at Hogwarts - as it is, it looks like a valuable skill but not a requirement for most wizards. The only people likely to need nonverbal skills regularly will be combat specialists and people intending to spend a lot of time in libraries. It might also be that some spells can't be used nonverbally (Unforgivable curses? The Patronus charm?)

SaintRidley
2012-07-31, 12:06 PM
Wasn't silent casting largely concentrated in the Defence course? With the Hogwarts record on Defense teaching, how many people would actually learn it by taking the N.E.W.T. Defence class?

snoopy13a
2012-07-31, 12:11 PM
It makes sense for Voldemort to not be looking into Snape's mind - he's the trusted spy within the OotP, never suspected of being a triple agent, because Voldy has proven on at least a couple occasions that he has no concept of the love that motivates him. And even if he did, Snape could explain the layers of conflicting images as a necessary precaution against Dumbledore.

Other things that bug me, though - in their sixth year, Hogwarts students learn to cast silently. How often do we see people actually do that, though? And not students, but the adults who, presumably, have had that training.

Barty Crouch, Jr., during his masquerade as Moody, mentioned that most of the Death Eaters had claimed to only be acting under the Imperius curse after Voldemort's fall from power. That same year, Snape tells Harry that one drop of veritaserum would have Voldy spilling his secrets. If wizards can brew veritaserum, it should have been an easy matter to interrogate everyone after the first war ended and lock the true Death Eaters in Azkaban. Even if they only interrogated criminals (or suspected criminals) in such a manner, Sirius would have revealed Pettigrew's treachery and been found innocent, which means he would never have been sentenced. All the Death Eaters put away also makes it much more difficult for Voldy to return - no servant to resurrect him, no power base even if he somehow manages it.

We see some Death Eaters cast silently. Outside of combat though, it doesn't seem to have any utility; it would normally just make simple spells tougher to cast.

As for veritaserum, the best explanation is that wizarding law has some sort of ban of using it on criminal defendants.

Xondoure
2012-07-31, 03:31 PM
It seems that veritaserum is difficult and expensive to brew, like the Wolfsbane potion. It might even be that Snape is the only person in the country capable of brewing it, especially if many powerful wizards were killed by (or were) Death Eaters. There might also be laws against employing it (or Legilimency, for that matter) in criminal cases. Although correct application of veritaserum would be invaluable, it might be that it's easy enough to imitate that its use would actually be a liability.

I also got the impression that the trials after the fall of Voldemort were basically show trials conducted by Crouch and weren't overly concerned with details like "justice" or "due process". If Harry's trial in OotP is anything to go by, even normal judicial proceedings are pretty cursory. I'm not sure Sirius even went to trial. Perhaps he pleaded guilty, or entered no plea, or perhaps Crouch just declared the evidence incontrovertible (especially with Dumbledore's - albeit circumstantial - word to support it) and sent him down without trial.

As for silent casting, again, I think it's something which requires an extra degree of concentration and/or proficiency, and in an everyday setting, or the heat of battle, many wizards either don't bother or lose their cool and start shouting. Even Snape doesn't bother when disarming Lockhart in the second book (although there are probably other reasons for that, both in and out of character). I think if nonverbal magic were an essential skill, it would be taught from first year at Hogwarts - as it is, it looks like a valuable skill but not a requirement for most wizards. The only people likely to need nonverbal skills regularly will be combat specialists and people intending to spend a lot of time in libraries. It might also be that some spells can't be used nonverbally (Unforgivable curses? The Patronus charm?)

Nonverbal spellcasting is harder, and it looks like a lot of people just sort of squeak by their sixth and seventh years. Some spells must be nonverbal, but so far we've seen no evidence any spell can't be silent (even the unforgivables are used silently.)

Gnoman
2012-07-31, 04:36 PM
In book 6, Dumbledore explains to Harry that Veritaserum has an antidote, while all other methods of magical interrogation seen in the books can be dealt with by force of will. It's far from a stretch that these methods would not be considered reliable even in a competent court, let alone the "feel-good" proceedings that Crouch clearly favored.

Agincourt
2012-07-31, 07:49 PM
I also got the impression that the trials after the fall of Voldemort were basically show trials conducted by Crouch and weren't overly concerned with details like "justice" or "due process". If Harry's trial in OotP is anything to go by, even normal judicial proceedings are pretty cursory. I'm not sure Sirius even went to trial. Perhaps he pleaded guilty, or entered no plea, or perhaps Crouch just declared the evidence incontrovertible (especially with Dumbledore's - albeit circumstantial - word to support it) and sent him down without trial.
(Bolding added by me.)

Sirius did not get a trial, explicitly. In Goblet of Fire, the trio visits Sirius in a cave near Hogsmeade, and he gives them some exposition about Barty Crouch Senior. He tells them that Crouch sent him to Azkaban without a trial.

I wouldn't call this a plot hole, but rather a plot point. The "justice" system in the Wizarding World is pretty shoddy. Powerful people can use shenanigans to bend the justice system to their own will.

Traab
2012-07-31, 08:13 PM
(Bolding added by me.)

Sirius did not get a trial, explicitly. In Goblet of Fire, the trio visits Sirius in a cave near Hogsmeade, and he gives them some exposition about Barty Crouch Senior. He tells them that Crouch sent him to Azkaban without a trial.

I wouldn't call this a plot hole, but rather a plot point. The "justice" system in the Wizarding World is pretty shoddy. Powerful people can use shenanigans to bend the justice system to their own will.

Yeah, its definitely a plot point, to let us see exactly how corrupt the wizarding world is, and why so many bad guys were walking the streets. Those with money and influence get out of jail, those without or who were unwilling to pretend they were innocent went to jail.

The potential mystery there, and what has added so much weight to the evil dumbledoore thing is, Dumbledoore was the head of the wizengamot at the time I believe, sirius was a member of his group, james and lily died under his protection. The idea that he wouldnt want sirius to have a trial, while people like the freaking LESTRANGES had one, stinks like week old milk.

Why did Sirius get no trial, when loud proud death eaters who were caught red handed at the scene of the crime got trials? It couldnt be that they just wanted to wrap things up so they could move on, the lestranges did their thing after sirius got framed I believe. It could be a sense of outrage over the reputed betrayal and the death of the family of their infant hero, but even that seems a stretch. What makes their death any more outrageous than the hundreds of other people who got slaughtered? I doubt sirius was the only person to turn on their friends and get them killed, it just, doesnt make any sense. The only way sirius getting no trial makes sense is if he was setup by someone. Whether Crouch in his quest to be seen as insanely tough on death eaters to build up his rep for the next minister election, or dumbles because he wanted harry raised a certain way and needed to control him.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-31, 08:17 PM
Maybe he just flat up hates Animagi or something?

The_Jackal
2012-07-31, 08:18 PM
Harry potter isn't horrible, but I don't understand why its as popular as it is in terms of community and stuff.

The characters are broad strokes, the magic is poorly explained, the plots depend on dues ex machina, and everybody acts like an idiot in universe.

It's a good yarn, it's that simple. It's a kid's book, and kids tend to view their reading/watching fare uncritically. You'll discover that the same criticisms you aim at Harry Potter, people your age in the late 70s and early 80s were aiming at Star Wars.

The root story for both properties is actually quite simple, they're both derivation of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth:


A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.

<Harry Potter/Luke Skywalker> is an ordinary kid from a(n) <english suburb/remote farm>. One day his world is turned upside down when he discovers he has a secret power: <Magic/The Force>, and this power has brought down the wrath of <Voldemort/The Empire> down upon him....

I could go on.

Aedilred
2012-07-31, 08:50 PM
Why did Sirius get no trial, when loud proud death eaters who were caught red handed at the scene of the crime got trials?
It's a good question, and I don't think there's a logical answer. Having said that, we don't know exactly how much power Dumbledore had as head of the Wizengamot - it might have been a titular position. He doesn't seem to have had the influence or authority to resist the nonsense that's happening in Books 4-5 at the Ministry and that was at a time of nominal peace. In a time of mass panic he might have just been shunted to one side by Crouch.

It still doesn't explain why Sirius didn't get a trial. If he was due to be tried relatively late in proceedings, it might be that all the other Death Eaters fingered him and by the time he was due for one the evidence was just held incontrovertible and not worth wasting time on. Maybe he was initially denied trial on grounds of insanity (laughing at the scene of the crime seems to have unsettled some people) and by the time they realised he was sane enough they couldn't be bothered any more.

Or perhaps the Lestranges and co wouldn't have got trials, but they (or their powerful friends) ensured they did by greasing the right palms. It's not clear how wealthy Sirius is - he must be reasonably well-off, although I got the impression that most of his money was tied up in the house - but without access to it - the wizarding world doesn't seem to operate on credit - or anybody deploying his resources on his behalf (and there was nobody to do it, save perhaps Kreacher(!)) he might have just been shut out of the "justice" system.

Mauve Shirt
2012-07-31, 08:57 PM
Sirius was cut out of his family's wealth. He was accused of murdering the only people he could conceivably borrow money from. He couldn't afford a trial in his favor. He probably didn't get a trial because someone thought that there was so much else going on and so many less plainly guilty people to interrogate.

Aedilred
2012-07-31, 10:06 PM
Was Sirius's mother still alive at the time of Voldy's death? That would help to explain why he couldn't afford a bribe at that point but after thirteen years of incarceration he's able to afford not only the Firebolt that Harry decided was an irresponsible purchase (considering that Harry's personal wealth amounts to a "small fortune") but also tropical vacations lasting months at a time, even though at no point in the series does he appear to have any sort of income whatsoever.

Agincourt
2012-07-31, 10:06 PM
Sirius was wealthy enough to buy Harry a Firebolt, and that was before he was exonerated. By every indication a Firebolt is a very expensive item.

When Sirius dies, Harry inherits "a reasonable amount of gold" from him. It seems that Sirius was at least somewhat wealthy.

Mauve Shirt
2012-07-31, 10:13 PM
His tropical vacations are more like flying to tropical locales on a hippogriff and stealing to eat. The Firebolt is a good point. His mother must have died during Voldy's reign, as I don't believe she saw Regulus die.

Agincourt
2012-07-31, 10:20 PM
I think Sirius has enough money to bribe someone, but not enough time. It takes a certain amount of subtlety to pass a bribe. With the chaos of the time period and his lack of connections—he had cut himself off from his family and his best friends just died—he was in no position to grease the wheels, so to speak.

Traab
2012-08-01, 07:35 AM
Sirius was cut out of his family's wealth. He was accused of murdering the only people he could conceivably borrow money from. He couldn't afford a trial in his favor. He probably didn't get a trial because someone thought that there was so much else going on and so many less plainly guilty people to interrogate.

I reiterate, they tried THE LESTRANGES AND CROUCHS OWN SON! Im pretty sure all of them were caught at the scene of the crime, torturing the longbottom family into insanity. This happened after sirius, and they all got trials. The lestranges didnt even WANT to get off, they were proud to go to azkaban to support their dark lord. If anyone wasnt worth wasting the time to try, it was them. Sirius though, he had been fighting on the side of the light for years before this apparent betrayal, he was always a staunch supporter of dumbledoore and his friends. They should have had a trial just to figure out why the hell he did it. Sirius not getting a trial is either a plot hole, or a hint that things arent so light on the side of dumbledoore and the rest of the so called "good guys" The list of circumstantial, but compelling evidence is fairly lengthy.

1) Dumbledoore flat out admits that he knew he was sending harry to abusive bastards to suffer for 10 straight years, and has no intention of not forcing him to go back every summer. There is no way in hell that petunia was the only muggle relation left alive. It never said it had to be an extremely close blood relation, im sure harry had muggle cousins somewhere.

2) He never once fought for a trial for sirius, Im pretty sure he even admitted that at one point. Something along the lines of, "Perhaps I should have pushed for there to be a trial" or something along those lines.

3) Every time Harry goes to school, he and his friends seem to be forced to solve an insanely dangerous mystery, while all the staff stand around with their fingers in their ears and their eyes shut. If a fricking muggleborn with 1 and a half years of magic training is able to figure out what killed myrtle and where the chamber is located, why cant dumbles the great, with 50 years of time on his hands, figure out the same? Why was the stone protected by things so easy three first years made it past? Why didnt lupin show the rest of the staff where the secret passages were since he KNOWS sirius is aware of all of them, and dumbles crew might not be? The list goes on.

4) He never once stands up for harry at the school. He knows who the heir of slytherin really is, he knows that harry didnt put his name in the goblet, and yet he sits back and lets this poor kid get torn apart by his classmates without raising a finger to help. The ONLY time he ever actually saved the day was in 5th year with the trial, and that was only because it would have gotten harry out from under his thumb.

Basically, it all adds up to one dark conclusion. Dumbledoore needed a beaten down chosen one who would look at him as a hero and guide and would be totally under his control. So he made sure of it by letting sirius go to jail with no trial, making sure harry was treated horribly at home so he could swoop in and "rescue" him, that he was isolated and alone at school. Aside from his two friends, he had at best a handful of acquaintances, and the rest were mindless sheep that couldnt decide if he was a hero or a dark lord from week to week. One of his friends is the youngest son of dumbledoores staunchest allies, the other is a muggleborn girl that, while smart, doesnt have the same basic knowledge of how the magical world works as someone like say, susan bones, might have. Toss him a few bones every now and then to keep him happy. A picture album here, a few mementos of his family there, and you have a happy puppy willing to throw his life away on your say so. The only other reasonable choice is that dumbledoore is a senile idiot with no idea of what he is doing. To attribute all these things to honest mistakes makes dumbles the stupidest man alive.

mangosta71
2012-08-01, 09:41 AM
Who's to say that Sirius bought the Firebolt? Maybe he stole it. Between Imperio and Obliviate, a wizard could get away with an awful lot.

"Imperio! Gimme that. Obliviate! I didn't just Imperio you."

Now imagine that he cast both those spells silently, so any potential witnesses can't actually testify as to exactly what happened.

Emmerask
2012-08-01, 09:54 AM
Every single Firebolt has its own serial number, stealing it and giving it to Harry would be a very bad idea especially since the wizarding world is pretty small, news about a stolen firebolt would have traveled pretty fast.

How about he just bought it via some owl service, or he just sent his house-elf?
His whole family is as far as we know dead at that time with only distant relatives remaining so he is the sole heir.

Gnoman
2012-08-01, 11:52 AM
3) Every time Harry goes to school, he and his friends seem to be forced to solve an insanely dangerous mystery, while all the staff stand around with their fingers in their ears and their eyes shut. If a fricking muggleborn with 1 and a half years of magic training is able to figure out what killed myrtle and where the chamber is located, why cant dumbles the great, with 50 years of time on his hands, figure out the same? Why was the stone protected by things so easy three first years made it past? Why didnt lupin show the rest of the staff where the secret passages were since he KNOWS sirius is aware of all of them, and dumbles crew might not be? The list goes on.


Forced? Hardly. He was flat-out forbidden to interfere in the Stone. His involvment in solving the Chamber of Secrets was pure accident. Extreme measures were taken to ensure that he wasn't involved in the Black incident, while he only intervened at the end because he and Hermoine was the only ones that believed in Sirius's innocence and were free to act. In the fifth book, Dumbledore does not have the power to intervene in the way Harry's treated, and does fall on his sword when it becomes neccessary to protect him. Harry's hunt for Malfoy in book 6 nearly ruined a most vital plan.

The stone was protected by a troll, which is an extremely powerful creature, a plant later used successfully as a murder weapon, a door that you had to display a great deal of aerial skill to get the key for, a chess game that holds every possibility of smashing the player, a logic puzzle, which is not exactly something most wizards are equipped for, and finally a powerfully enchanted mirror. In short, it's an extraordinarily deadly set of defenses, one which any reasonable person would expect to be more than sufficient. Indeed, they would have stopped Harry and company quite easily if the troll hadn't been taken out.

Dumbledore couldn't find the Chamber of Secrets because he lacked the vital bit of information that Harry was hearing voices from the walls. He didn't have the key clue.

As for the rest:

1. We don't know how the magic works. Even if we assume that Lily had other relatives still living (which is NOT a warranted assumption) they may not have been close enough. Considering the chaos that followed Voldemort's fall, and the later chaos that accompanied his return, that protection was certainly quite important.

2. You remember wrongly. He never made such a statement. The closest he came was having given testimony about Sirius's role as the Potter's secret-keeper. We don't know how much power he had in trials at the time, but it is pretty strongly implied that Crouch alone had the power to decide if one would be held.

4. Headmasters, even if aware of rumors about students, are hardly likely to be able to dispell them even if they choose to attempt such. What could he have done? Annouced that the last Heir was a wizard, believed to be dead, that the entire Wizard community still lives in terror of? I'm sure that would go over so well. The one time in which he was truly able to "stand up for Harry" was at the trial, in which he did so.

snoopy13a
2012-08-01, 12:24 PM
I reiterate, they tried THE LESTRANGES AND CROUCHS OWN SON! Im pretty sure all of them were caught at the scene of the crime, torturing the longbottom family into insanity. This happened after sirius, and they all got trials. The lestranges didnt even WANT to get off, they were proud to go to azkaban to support their dark lord. If anyone wasnt worth wasting the time to try, it was them. Sirius though, he had been fighting on the side of the light for years before this apparent betrayal, he was always a staunch supporter of dumbledoore and his friends. They should have had a trial just to figure out why the hell he did it. Sirius not getting a trial is either a plot hole, or a hint that things arent so light on the side of dumbledoore and the rest of the so called "good guys" The list of circumstantial, but compelling evidence is fairly lengthy.



Sirius was caught right after Voldemort was defeated. Everyone, including Dumbledore, believed he betrayed the Potters and was caught red-handed murdering Peter Pettigrew and several unfortunate bystanders. A lack of a trial is somewhat understandable there. In some sense it is surprising he didn't recieve the wizarding version of "shot trying to escape" or "hanged himself in his cell."

The Lestranges and Crouch were caught sometime afterwards. By this time, the hysteria over Voldemort had died down enough to at least give them a show trial.

Agincourt
2012-08-01, 12:27 PM
Who's to say that Sirius bought the Firebolt? Maybe he stole it. Between Imperio and Obliviate, a wizard could get away with an awful lot.

Who's to say? Sirius, that's who. He explains how he bought the Firebolt. He says Crookshanks delivered the order to the post office, and the money was deducted from his bank account.

You can argue he was lying, but you'd need more evidence.

Agincourt
2012-08-01, 12:52 PM
Forced? Hardly. He was flat-out forbidden to interfere in the Stone. His involvment in solving the Chamber of Secrets was pure accident. Extreme measures were taken to ensure that he wasn't involved in the Black incident, while he only intervened at the end because he and Hermoine was the only ones that believed in Sirius's innocence and were free to act. In the fifth book, Dumbledore does not have the power to intervene in the way Harry's treated, and does fall on his sword when it becomes neccessary to protect him. Harry's hunt for Malfoy in book 6 nearly ruined a most vital plan.

While I agree that Traab overstates the case for an evil Dumbledore interpretation, there is something a little suspect about how Dumbledore handles the Philosopher's Stone. He intentionally lets Harry interact with the Mirror of Erised over Christmas break. He teaches Harry how it works, and then tells him he's going to move the mirror.

I think Dumbledore did want harry to find the stone to test Harry's character. Some find that manipulative, but it's necessary to see what exactly Harry is capable of. Also, it's a trope of children's literature that the children do just about everything important

Traab
2012-08-01, 01:48 PM
Forced? Hardly. He was flat-out forbidden to interfere in the Stone. His involvment in solving the Chamber of Secrets was pure accident. Extreme measures were taken to ensure that he wasn't involved in the Black incident, while he only intervened at the end because he and Hermoine was the only ones that believed in Sirius's innocence and were free to act. In the fifth book, Dumbledore does not have the power to intervene in the way Harry's treated, and does fall on his sword when it becomes neccessary to protect him. Harry's hunt for Malfoy in book 6 nearly ruined a most vital plan.

The stone was protected by a troll, which is an extremely powerful creature, a plant later used successfully as a murder weapon, a door that you had to display a great deal of aerial skill to get the key for, a chess game that holds every possibility of smashing the player, a logic puzzle, which is not exactly something most wizards are equipped for, and finally a powerfully enchanted mirror. In short, it's an extraordinarily deadly set of defenses, one which any reasonable person would expect to be more than sufficient. Indeed, they would have stopped Harry and company quite easily if the troll hadn't been taken out.

Dumbledore couldn't find the Chamber of Secrets because he lacked the vital bit of information that Harry was hearing voices from the walls. He didn't have the key clue.

As for the rest:

1. We don't know how the magic works. Even if we assume that Lily had other relatives still living (which is NOT a warranted assumption) they may not have been close enough. Considering the chaos that followed Voldemort's fall, and the later chaos that accompanied his return, that protection was certainly quite important.

2. You remember wrongly. He never made such a statement. The closest he came was having given testimony about Sirius's role as the Potter's secret-keeper. We don't know how much power he had in trials at the time, but it is pretty strongly implied that Crouch alone had the power to decide if one would be held.

4. Headmasters, even if aware of rumors about students, are hardly likely to be able to dispell them even if they choose to attempt such. What could he have done? Annouced that the last Heir was a wizard, believed to be dead, that the entire Wizard community still lives in terror of? I'm sure that would go over so well. The one time in which he was truly able to "stand up for Harry" was at the trial, in which he did so.

Hah, so he was "forbidden" from saving the stone. In other words, he was put into a position where he goes in and saves the day, or lets voldemort grab the stone without opposition. Thats like saying, "I forbid you from grabbing that guy so he doesnt fall off the cliff." Anyone with even a small amount of morals is going to ignore whoever forbade them and do the right thing.

As for the chamber, Hermione is the one who figured it out. She did research and was able to put the clues together. I think the last bit of it only required asking the girl who died last time HOW she died!

As for Black, Harry still ran into him, even while obeying the restrictions and inside the protections. Black got into and out of the castle several times, and the one person who had a damn good idea how, refused to speak up.

As for speaking up for harry, I was more talking years 2 and 4. When it was the students in his school, acting out of ignorance because dumbledoore wouldnt tell them harry was innocent. He had the information that proved harry wasnt the heir of slytherin, he had the information that proved harry didnt enter himself, and he sat on it, and let the school tear harry apart. He let the school ostracize an innocent boy, why? Because he didnt want harry to become too popular. He wanted his loyal little weapon to be willing to throw away his life at a moments notice, and letting him have a vast circle of friends would be an impediment, not too mention the increased chances that someone who didnt support him mindlessly might notice how harry was being treated and say something.

Ron knocked out a troll using the very first spell taught to them. You dont need to decapitate a troll to beat it. The plant was used on a nearly brain dead hospital patient to kill him. A freaking pillow would have been as lethal when applied across his mouth and nose. Would you consider something as dangerous as a pillow to be a solid deterrent? Exceptional flying ability? Quirrelmort had no trouble getting it. Harry, a firsty who had been riding a broom for less than a year got it. Hardly an insurmountable challenge. The chess set? Odd how it was a challenge uniquely suited for harrys best friend to beat. Logic puzzle? Didnt stop quirrelmort, and of course they had hermione there to handle it. The entire set of trials was designed specifically to focus on harry and his friends specialties. Had neville come along it would have been even more obvious.

1) We just dont know enough about the suppsoed wards. But I have to wonder, what sort of good guy and leader of the light would intentionally place harry with abusive monsters, "to keep him safe" There is no way he was unaware of his living conditions, he had figg reporting to him, and every time pomphrey looked at him the signs of abuse should have stood out like a sore thumb. There is no way in hell that "Im going to make you suffer for the next 16 years of your life, so you will be alive." is actually justified here. I could see him leaving harry there short term perhaps, jsut to make other arrangements, I might even buy him being left there till hogwarts due to not actually getting all the evidence of abuse, but once he showed up there? How about after the first summer when the weasleys had to pull bars off his windows, and saw he had been starved half to death?

2) Dumbledoore is head of the wizarding courts, head of the international blah blah blah, and most respected man since merlin, you cant tell me that if he had insisted they wouldnt have given sirius the trial they by law HAD to give him. Yes he got discredited in 5th year, but thats due to a long drawn out propaganda campaign funded by deathe aters and those sheeple absolutely unwilling to accept that voldemort could be back.

3) Except he had the facts that would exonerate harry the whole time. Its not like a standard situation where the kids are spreading a random rumor at school, these are actual events taking place, and instead of letting the kids know even a little bit of whats going on, dumbledoore hangs onto his proof of harrys innocence and lets him get verbally torn apart because the kids figure, "If we were wrong, surely the teachers would say something!" The only reason dumbledoore stood up for harry was because this bit of persecution would get harry removed from his control.

Nekura
2012-08-04, 02:09 AM
Hah, so he was "forbidden" from saving the stone. In other words, he was put into a position where he goes in and saves the day, or lets voldemort grab the stone without opposition. Thats like saying, "I forbid you from grabbing that guy so he doesnt fall off the cliff." Anyone with even a small amount of morals is going to ignore whoever forbade them and do the right thing.

As for the chamber, Hermione is the one who figured it out. She did research and was able to put the clues together. I think the last bit of it only required asking the girl who died last time HOW she died!

As for Black, Harry still ran into him, even while obeying the restrictions and inside the protections. Black got into and out of the castle several times, and the one person who had a damn good idea how, refused to speak up.

As for speaking up for harry, I was more talking years 2 and 4. When it was the students in his school, acting out of ignorance because dumbledoore wouldnt tell them harry was innocent. He had the information that proved harry wasnt the heir of slytherin, he had the information that proved harry didnt enter himself, and he sat on it, and let the school tear harry apart. He let the school ostracize an innocent boy, why? Because he didnt want harry to become too popular. He wanted his loyal little weapon to be willing to throw away his life at a moments notice, and letting him have a vast circle of friends would be an impediment, not too mention the increased chances that someone who didnt support him mindlessly might notice how harry was being treated and say something.

Ron knocked out a troll using the very first spell taught to them. You dont need to decapitate a troll to beat it. The plant was used on a nearly brain dead hospital patient to kill him. A freaking pillow would have been as lethal when applied across his mouth and nose. Would you consider something as dangerous as a pillow to be a solid deterrent? Exceptional flying ability? Quirrelmort had no trouble getting it. Harry, a firsty who had been riding a broom for less than a year got it. Hardly an insurmountable challenge. The chess set? Odd how it was a challenge uniquely suited for harrys best friend to beat. Logic puzzle? Didnt stop quirrelmort, and of course they had hermione there to handle it. The entire set of trials was designed specifically to focus on harry and his friends specialties. Had neville come along it would have been even more obvious.

1) We just dont know enough about the suppsoed wards. But I have to wonder, what sort of good guy and leader of the light would intentionally place harry with abusive monsters, "to keep him safe" There is no way he was unaware of his living conditions, he had figg reporting to him, and every time pomphrey looked at him the signs of abuse should have stood out like a sore thumb. There is no way in hell that "Im going to make you suffer for the next 16 years of your life, so you will be alive." is actually justified here. I could see him leaving harry there short term perhaps, jsut to make other arrangements, I might even buy him being left there till hogwarts due to not actually getting all the evidence of abuse, but once he showed up there? How about after the first summer when the weasleys had to pull bars off his windows, and saw he had been starved half to death?

2) Dumbledoore is head of the wizarding courts, head of the international blah blah blah, and most respected man since merlin, you cant tell me that if he had insisted they wouldnt have given sirius the trial they by law HAD to give him. Yes he got discredited in 5th year, but thats due to a long drawn out propaganda campaign funded by deathe aters and those sheeple absolutely unwilling to accept that voldemort could be back.

3) Except he had the facts that would exonerate harry the whole time. Its not like a standard situation where the kids are spreading a random rumor at school, these are actual events taking place, and instead of letting the kids know even a little bit of whats going on, dumbledoore hangs onto his proof of harrys innocence and lets him get verbally torn apart because the kids figure, "If we were wrong, surely the teachers would say something!" The only reason dumbledoore stood up for harry was because this bit of persecution would get harry removed from his control.


Dumbledore quote
"Five years ago you arrived at Hogwarts, Harry, safe and whole, as I had planned and intended. Well - not quite whole. You had suffered. I knew you would when I left you on your aunt and uncle's doorstep. I knew I was condemning you to ten dark and difficult years”

A lot of people agree that Dumbledore is manipulative but not evil. I don’t see how they can say he is not evil. He knew what Harry’s life would be like before he placed him at the Dursleys and it ended up being more then 10 years because his life wasn‘t too hot at Hogwarts either and he kept sending him back each summer. He has seen firsthand what a troubled childhood did to Tom Riddle.

People say Harry’s life in exchange for killing Voldemort who would kill many people is worth it. I don’t agree and it makes you wonder how much practice Dumbledore has putting children through abuse to brainwash them to act how he wants instead of going insane like Riddle. Harry did trash Dumbledore’s office in rage but he was so brainwashed into the cult of Dumbledore that he still went back to the Dursleys’ even after Dumbles was dead and he even named one of his kids after him for @#%$ sake.

VanBuren
2012-08-04, 04:50 AM
It's not like Dumbledore sent him to the Dursley's because he thought it was funny.

Anecronwashere
2012-08-04, 05:32 AM
Nope, he did it for "Blood Wards" and to shape Harry into a self-sacrificing weapon.

Dragonus45
2012-08-04, 06:08 AM
I can't help but feel like you seen more than is really there with this dumbledore is evulz theory. He was a man who had to make the hard choices in a difficult time. I think if he had more options he would have taken them.

VanBuren
2012-08-04, 06:31 AM
Nope, he did it for "Blood Wards" and to shape Harry into a self-sacrificing weapon.

Really? How do the blood wards turn Harry into a "self-sacrificing weapon"?

Xondoure
2012-08-04, 01:34 PM
The part of that quote your missing is the one where he adds that Harry was both alive, and a good person. Additionally that his terrible self worth saved him from becoming the most arrogant child in the world. Instead it just sort of restored him to the normal state of being.Of course the alive bit was most important.

After all, had he been away from the protections for too long the blood wards would fade and Voldemort might well have simply possessed Harry and returned to power that much sooner.

Traab
2012-08-04, 01:50 PM
Really? How do the blood wards turn Harry into a "self-sacrificing weapon"?

Being kept at the dursleys kept him isolated, alone, and firmly stomped on any sense of self worth he may have had. He would have clung helplessly to anyone who showed him kindness, and the very suspicious introduction to the weasleys meant he clung to ron, youngest, dumbest son of a family completely devoted to dumbledoore. And it WAS suspicious.

Molly just happens to be talking about muggles within earshot of harry? Fine, I can buy that. But wondering out loud what platform they need to go to? BULL! She has gone to the same train station probably 2-3 dozen times or more over the course of her life. Several times a year counting school starts, school ends, and christmas holidays. There is no way in hell she actually would have had any confusion about where she was supposed to go. That whole thing stank of setup.

Androgeus
2012-08-04, 02:05 PM
But wondering out loud what platform they need to go to? BULL! She has gone to the same train station probably 2-3 dozen times or more over the course of her life. Several times a year counting school starts, school ends, and christmas holidays. There is no way in hell she actually would have had any confusion about where she was supposed to go. That whole thing stank of setup.

She could be making sure that she knows that her children know what platform they need.

SaintRidley
2012-08-04, 02:06 PM
Being kept at the dursleys kept him isolated, alone, and firmly stomped on any sense of self worth he may have had. He would have clung helplessly to anyone who showed him kindness, and the very suspicious introduction to the weasleys meant he clung to ron, youngest, dumbest son of a family completely devoted to dumbledoore. And it WAS suspicious.

Molly just happens to be talking about muggles within earshot of harry? Fine, I can buy that. But wondering out loud what platform they need to go to? BULL! She has gone to the same train station probably 2-3 dozen times or more over the course of her life. Several times a year counting school starts, school ends, and christmas holidays. There is no way in hell she actually would have had any confusion about where she was supposed to go. That whole thing stank of setup.

Ron's lazy, not dumb. Completely devoted to Dumbledore? I don't see that.

It's lazy writing, lacking in any degree of carefulness to have Molly ask what platform (unless intended to function as Androgenous suggested above). A setup, though? That's almost laughable.

Agincourt
2012-08-04, 02:19 PM
Molly just happens to be talking about muggles within earshot of harry? Fine, I can buy that. But wondering out loud what platform they need to go to? BULL! She has gone to the same train station probably 2-3 dozen times or more over the course of her life. Several times a year counting school starts, school ends, and christmas holidays. There is no way in hell she actually would have had any confusion about where she was supposed to go. That whole thing stank of setup.

Do you have children? Parents constantly ask their children questions they already know the answers to. Ginny answers the question, so I infer that the question was directed at her to help her feel involved. Quizzing your child is a wonderful technique.

Gnoman
2012-08-04, 02:22 PM
Many parents, especially ones who's parents walk them to school, drill their children in the same manner. "What street is the your school on again?" "I can't remember, do we take a left or a right on Broadway?" It's an effective way to keep your children engaged in what's going on.

Traab
2012-08-04, 02:26 PM
Ron's lazy, not dumb. Completely devoted to Dumbledore? I don't see that.

It's lazy writing, lacking in any degree of carefulness to have Molly ask what platform (unless intended to function as Androgenous suggested above). A setup, though? That's almost laughable.

Ok, here is the thing. I dont honestly believe that rowling intended for dumbledoore to come off as evil, but the methods of writing she used to impart information to us the readers, as well as to create scenarios where the hero could have his adventures, just keeps pointing that way. Take Andros theory that molly wanted to make sure her kids knew the platform. Considering she brought ginny, it would appear they tend to go as a family unit to the station. That means ron and ginny have likely seen the right platform a number of times before they started going themselves. Now, we all know the real purpose was for rowling to introduce this family to harry, not to imply a setup, but the fumble fingered way it was written gives that impression. A far less suspicious setup would be,

"Oh young man, I couldnt help but notice your owl cage, are you heading for platform 9 and 3/4? Its this way."

A motherly woman like molly seeing a clearly bewildered child alone clearly not sure what he is supposed to do walking up and offering help makes perfect sense. Her acting like she is dropping verbal hints to make him approach them on the other hand reaches spy versus spy turf.

Same for the obstacles protecting the stone. We all realize that they couldnt be protections harry and crew couldnt bypass, otherwise the story wouldnt have had a point. But the fact that this insanely rare and powerful artifact is supposedly under the best protections in the world, and yet people with less than 10 months magical training got there with minimal effort makes it look like it was staged, or a setup. I honestly dont know if there was a better way to handle it. Having a bunch of children solve mysteries the adults cant handle is always going to be tricky to arrange without making the adults seem like morons, or manipulative. Last time I saw it work was reading encyclopedia brown. :smallbiggrin:

Similar things hold for virtually all the other points ive made for evil dumbles. And the ones that arent covered by it are less effective at proving that viewpoint, because the others were negated. Its just when you bring up a 50 page long report on everything that pointed towards evil dumbles that it starts to add up that way.

Agincourt
2012-08-04, 02:39 PM
A motherly woman like molly seeing a clearly bewildered child alone clearly not sure what he is supposed to do walking up and offering help makes perfect sense. Her acting like she is dropping verbal hints to make him approach them on the other hand reaches spy versus spy turf.

Molly has five children in tow. George and Fred are a handful by themselves. Throw in a couple of animals, suitcases for 4 of the children, and what remaining energy she has is spent trying to dodge muggles. There is no indication that she even sees Harry until he approaches her.

The verbal hints were to keep Ginny engaged.

SaintRidley
2012-08-04, 02:54 PM
Oh, absolutely she didn't write tightly enough to prevent the Dumbledore is secretly evil line of thinking from gaining legs. I think she was very smart to knowingly play with it in the last book, even, by giving us Dumbledore the schemer.

I mean, yeah, Dumbledore had ideas about what to do with Harry from the beginning. Sticking him with Muggles would keep him from getting a big head about his fame, though I think his choice of Muggles was definitely wrongheaded. Sure, the Dursleys are Harry's last living blood relatives through his mother's side of the family, but listen to your deputy Headmistress when she tells you this will not work out well. But I feel he probably didn't imagine the level of abuse that would happen, and once the plan was in place it didn't matter to him- the plan was in place and that's Dumbledore's deal: the plan is more important than whatever individual suffering that might result.

Dumbledore's no saint. We have to keep in mind that whenever we see him presented in that way in the books, we're getting it from Harry's perspective at a time when Harry does not question Dumbledore at all. It's only in book 5 where we see Harry begin to wonder and see Dumbledore's flaws, but the kid's also forgiving. By the final two books Harry understands that Dumbledore isn't perfect, but he also understands that Dumbledore is a planner and believes that Dumbledore does know what he was doing. Harry does have a problem of conflating good people with people who like Harry, though.

Dumbledore does manipulate events. But the idea that he manipulated Harry's way into meeting the Weasleys is just taking that trait to silly levels, is what I'm really saying.

Not that the events of the final book don't take Dumbledore's manipulation to silly levels. They do.


But the fact that this insanely rare and powerful artifact is supposedly under the best protections in the world, and yet people with less than 10 months magical training got there with minimal effort makes it look like it was staged, or a setup.

Well, for a community expressly used to solving all their problems with magic, I think it's actually pretty clever to guard the stone with a bunch of tests that don't necessarily require magic. Only two of them actually do, and one was completely taken out by the time the kids got there.

Fluffy? You need a good knowledge of mythology and magical creatures to get past this safely and quickly. Then you drop into the Devil's Snare, in the dark. So you can't see and you'll quickly get taken by the plant if you don't calm down and think. First instinct in the dark is to make light. Then you need to identify what's going on and get some fire out - the first of two to actually require magic.

Then you have to have good reflexes and the ability to pick a needle out of a haystack while flying on a broom before going on to play chess, one of those games that is eminently logical and strategically sophisticated (qualities we all know wizards tend to be lacking in). Then there's a troll, which will be resistant to magic so you'll basically need the kind of magic only a fully trained wizard could do. This one would have completely stopped the kids had they needed to actually fight it.

And lastly there is the logic puzzle (see chess) and the mirror, which a very tricky puzzle to solve.

But you really didn't need much magical training to do the stone puzzle anyway - just a working brain and maybe a bit of luck. Doesn't seem like a setup to me so much as a way to prevent 99% of wizards from being able to do it because they can't rely on their magic to do everything for them.

Gnoman
2012-08-04, 03:17 PM
But you really didn't need much magical training to do the stone puzzle anyway - just a working brain and maybe a bit of luck. Doesn't seem like a setup to me so much as a way to prevent 99% of wizards from being able to do it because they can't rely on their magic to do everything for them.

Exactly. Most wizards would fail to pass all the tests. The one thing you've not mentioned is that, not only do some of the tests not requrire magic, magic can't be useful. If you can't deductively reason, you can't solve the potion puzzle.

Traab
2012-08-04, 03:25 PM
Well, for a community expressly used to solving all their problems with magic, I think it's actually pretty clever to guard the stone with a bunch of tests that don't necessarily require magic. Only two of them actually do, and one was completely taken out by the time the kids got there.

Fluffy? You need a good knowledge of mythology and magical creatures to get past this safely and quickly. Then you drop into the Devil's Snare, in the dark. So you can't see and you'll quickly get taken by the plant if you don't calm down and think. First instinct in the dark is to make light. Then you need to identify what's going on and get some fire out - the first of two to actually require magic.

Then you have to have good reflexes and the ability to pick a needle out of a haystack while flying on a broom before going on to play chess, one of those games that is eminently logical and strategically sophisticated (qualities we all know wizards tend to be lacking in). Then there's a troll, which will be resistant to magic so you'll basically need the kind of magic only a fully trained wizard could do. This one would have completely stopped the kids had they needed to actually fight it.

And lastly there is the logic puzzle (see chess) and the mirror, which a very tricky puzzle to solve.

But you really didn't need much magical training to do the stone puzzle anyway - just a working brain and maybe a bit of luck. Doesn't seem like a setup to me so much as a way to prevent 99% of wizards from being able to do it because they can't rely on their magic to do everything for them.

The problem with this viewpoint is, Anyone taking care of magical creatures would likely be able to figure out about fluffy. Its doubtful he is some one of a kind creature of legend in the magical world. And his weakness is stupidly easy to use. Its not like say, dragons. "Oh, aim for the eyes!" Yeah, that'll work just great. No danger there.

The devils snare is covered in herbology. Hermione was able to figure it out in seconds and how to defeat it. The key thing would be a challenge, but its a challenge that seemed like it was specifically designed for harry or any other good flyer, of which there are likely tons. If quirrelmort was able to get it, I doubt it would be that hard overall. As for chess? Come on, Ron is a fanatic over it, and there is a wizarding version of it sold like any other board game. Its hardly some insurmountable puzzle that no wizard will be able to beat. The troll? Once again, its a creature that was beaten by a couple of first years with no idea what they were doing. Anyone with magical talent could take one down. The logic puzzle I can see being a useful delay tactic. The only real barrier was the mirror.

Nekura
2012-08-04, 03:25 PM
The Dursleys clearly didn’t want Harry. Dumbledore admitted he knew Harry would be abused there before he put him there and after the fact. So seeing as Dumbledore threatened or did something to force the Dursleys to take Harry why didn’t he do something to make sure they treated Harry well? After all it’s obvious Dumbledore doesn’t care about the Dursleys’ free will. It’s because it was all part of his plan.

Dumbledore isn’t a god or a seer himself so he had no way to be sure the blood protection was vital. Would a good man choose blood protection and an abused baby or a slightly less secure protection where an innocent wouldn’t be abused for years? And if he did choose blood protection as I already said he was forcing the Dursleys to do things against their will so why not go all the way and make sure Harry was treated right?

Gnoman
2012-08-04, 03:39 PM
The problem with this viewpoint is, Anyone taking care of magical creatures would likely be able to figure out about fluffy. Its doubtful he is some one of a kind creature of legend in the magical world. And his weakness is stupidly easy to use. Its not like say, dragons. "Oh, aim for the eyes!" Yeah, that'll work just great. No danger there.

The devils snare is covered in herbology. Hermione was able to figure it out in seconds and how to defeat it. The key thing would be a challenge, but its a challenge that seemed like it was specifically designed for harry or any other good flyer, of which there are likely tons. If quirrelmort was able to get it, I doubt it would be that hard overall. As for chess? Come on, Ron is a fanatic over it, and there is a wizarding version of it sold like any other board game. Its hardly some insurmountable puzzle that no wizard will be able to beat. The troll? Once again, its a creature that was beaten by a couple of first years with no idea what they were doing. Anyone with magical talent could take one down. The logic puzzle I can see being a useful delay tactic. The only real barrier was the mirror.

Succeeding at something does NOT mean that it is something that your age group can easily do. By that logic, chaining a dragon down there would be useless, since a fourth-year student was able to handle one easily. The potion test would only delay you if you never thought that you solved it, If you thought you had, but didn't, it would kill you. Either you would drink the poison, and die, or try to walk trhough the fire and die. Devil's snare is an extremely deadly plant in-universe. It's used as a murder weapon later on. They teach Boy Scouts how to handle fire at eight or nine years old, but that doesn't keep people from dying in fires every day. The protections on the stone were quite effective.

Traab
2012-08-04, 04:20 PM
Succeeding at something does NOT mean that it is something that your age group can easily do. By that logic, chaining a dragon down there would be useless, since a fourth-year student was able to handle one easily. The potion test would only delay you if you never thought that you solved it, If you thought you had, but didn't, it would kill you. Either you would drink the poison, and die, or try to walk trhough the fire and die. Devil's snare is an extremely deadly plant in-universe. It's used as a murder weapon later on. They teach Boy Scouts how to handle fire at eight or nine years old, but that doesn't keep people from dying in fires every day. The protections on the stone were quite effective.

If three eleven year olds can get by your defenses, they suck. And the fact that they were tailored so clearly towards said 11 year olds is another of those bad writing/evil dumbledore scenarios. They couldnt have been any more perfectly setup to be bypassed specifically by harry and his friends than if they had walked up and quizzed them beforehand. Hermione gets a pass because her entire character is designed around being a walking deus ex machina. She always has the answer "that I just read about" But chess as a defense when harrys best friend is a chess fanatic? A room full of tiny fast moving objects that have to be caught when harry is the greatest seeker to ever exist? A troll which is a dark creature that they have already beaten once? And a mirror dumbledoore made sure harry would know about before it was used as a defense?

The Glyphstone
2012-08-04, 06:55 PM
Would a good defense have been one that killed off the trio in the first book and prevented the rest of the series from being written?

Tiki Snakes
2012-08-04, 06:59 PM
Would a good defense have been one that killed off the trio in the first book and prevented the rest of the series from being written?

A bad story, but a good defence, yes. Given that a defence is supposed to keep people out.

Anecronwashere
2012-08-04, 07:14 PM
A better defence would have added some extra, ruined rooms that clearly held demolished challenges and traps.
Remember that Quirrelmort already went through, and Rowling put in the defeated troll, adding in some rubble-filled rooms or a broken Wardstone would have done wonders.

Now we don't have a series of traps devoted to each of the Golden Trio + Neville but a few coincidental traps that happen to be bypassable by them while the more deadly traps are already taken out.

Aedilred
2012-08-04, 07:59 PM
It's worth noting that none of Harry's "team" would have made it through the Stone puzzle individually, even with some of the obstacles (Fluffy and the troll) having been dealt with for them by Quirrelmort. Hermione was able to identify the Devil's Snare but it took Ron to work out a practical way of defeating it. Neither Harry nor Hermione has shown any particular aptitude for chess. Harry and Ron would have been mystified by the logic puzzle. As for the keys, not only is Harry an exceptionally gifted flyer, but they were able to identify the key by the broken wing Quirrelmort caused when he grabbed it.

Now, how Quirrelmort made it through isn't clear. Obviously he had the advantage of knowing (or at least having a good idea) what the defences were, which meant he was able to research, say, Fluffy, and rig one of the challenges in his favour. How he was able to do the keys isn't clear - but it's possible he has access to magical flight (Voldemort does, and so does the film Quirrelmort) which obviates the need for broomstick ability.

As for the challenges being set up so that Harry's team can deal with them, well, that is a bit narratively convenient, but I don't think the chronology makes sense for it to be a deliberate choice on Dumbledore's part to make it navigable for Harry and crew. The wards were set up at the beginning of the year, when Harry's "crew members" were an unknown quantity. Dumbledore might have predicted Ron, but at that point, nobody could have realistically foreseen Hermione's participation. She didn't even befriend Harry until a couple of months into the year, and for her to have developed enough of a loyalty to Harry as to overcome her resistance to breaking school rules isn't likely enough to base a whole plan around.

Traab
2012-08-04, 08:00 PM
Would a good defense have been one that killed off the trio in the first book and prevented the rest of the series from being written?

As was said, yep, that would be a good defense, or at least defenses meant to trap and contain instead of kill. But a bad story as that would have been the end. Though it would have been possible to continue the story with a trap/contain scenario. Quirrelmort got ahold of the stone eventually, as he is leaving he bumps into harry and his friends. Words and actions are exchanged, ron and hermione get to witness the events instead of just harry, and eventually harry manages to turn quirrelmort into ash.

Or like was also said, include traps that are clearly way above their level that moldy voldy broke through ahead of them. "Oh my god, Ive read about these! they are the mysterious death stones of quadalampur! They can drain the life force out of anything within 30 meters of themselves in seconds flat! Thank god they were already broken, or we would have died before we knew what was wrong!"

Then after its all over, dumbles explains why the traps varied so wildly as a psychological ploy. After waltzing through the cerebrus, the plant, and the keys, voldemorts eyes would have been rolling so hard from the sheer stupidity of the defenses that he would have sprained something. Also, it would make him overconfident and hopefully stumble into the deadly traps. Make mention of the fact that voldemort was weakened by these traps to explain why harry had any chance to win, and that maintains voldys threat as a bad guy, even when disembodied.

Aedilred
2012-08-05, 08:16 PM
Part of the thing about Harry Potter, though, is the increasingly darkening tone. In the first book, Harry overcomes the villain through random magical plot armour. Fine. That fits with the relatively lighthearted feel of the book.

Come book four, the villain has found a way to circumvent what foiled him in Book 1. This serves as a signal to the readership that this is no longer happyfuntime. From now on, Harry won't be able to rely on innate magical antivillain resistance, but on his friends, supporters, wits and skills.

A series that didn't give Harry in-universe plot armour in the first book couldn't rescind it later on, so the effect wouldn't be the same.

Traab
2012-08-05, 08:31 PM
Part of the thing about Harry Potter, though, is the increasingly darkening tone. In the first book, Harry overcomes the villain through random magical plot armour. Fine. That fits with the relatively lighthearted feel of the book.

Come book four, the villain has found a way to circumvent what foiled him in Book 1. This serves as a signal to the readership that this is no longer happyfuntime. From now on, Harry won't be able to rely on innate magical antivillain resistance, but on his friends, supporters, wits and skills.

A series that didn't give Harry in-universe plot armour in the first book couldn't rescind it later on, so the effect wouldn't be the same.

Yeah, but instead of mothers love plot armor, he gets the dubious brother wand plot armor. Then in book 5 his "ability to love" manages to stop voldemort from taking him over. Then in book 7 his brother wand effect somehow effects voldemort even when he uses a different wand. Albeit in a different way. And lets not forget the extreme stupidity of the omniscient elder wand being able to tell when its master is beaten from several counties away. THAT pissed me off. I could buy it attuning to its new user through the exchange of magic in a fight or whatever, but the wand being so freaking aware that it can tell its master was beaten when its a hundred miles or more away? Feh. I dont think harry ever manages to beat voldemort due to being better. He only wins due to an ever increasing number of asspull style victories. Less deus ex machina and more, "Well clearly he wont lose, and equally clearly he cant win as things stand, so what will rowling give harry THIS fight?"

Tyndmyr
2012-08-06, 02:58 PM
A better defence would have added some extra, ruined rooms that clearly held demolished challenges and traps.
Remember that Quirrelmort already went through, and Rowling put in the defeated troll, adding in some rubble-filled rooms or a broken Wardstone would have done wonders.

Now we don't have a series of traps devoted to each of the Golden Trio + Neville but a few coincidental traps that happen to be bypassable by them while the more deadly traps are already taken out.

This. The "someone's already tripped this and this" adds to the tension, and also adds realism. The idea of some of the traps being non-resetting is fairly reasonable, really.


Come book four, the villain has found a way to circumvent what foiled him in Book 1. This serves as a signal to the readership that this is no longer happyfuntime. From now on, Harry won't be able to rely on innate magical antivillain resistance, but on his friends, supporters, wits and skills.

A series that didn't give Harry in-universe plot armour in the first book couldn't rescind it later on, so the effect wouldn't be the same.

Oh, it was always plot armor. This was never the kind of series in which I had any genuine worry for the protagonist. And frankly, the brother wand effect was a bit of a deus ex machina.

I never really felt like plot armor went away....not that I like plot armor as an element anyway.

Traab
2012-08-06, 03:37 PM
This. The "someone's already tripped this and this" adds to the tension, and also adds realism. The idea of some of the traps being non-resetting is fairly reasonable, really.



Oh, it was always plot armor. This was never the kind of series in which I had any genuine worry for the protagonist. And frankly, the brother wand effect was a bit of a deus ex machina.

I never really felt like plot armor went away....not that I like plot armor as an element anyway.

Harry Potter was like a girl in a clothing store, constantly trying on new pieces of plot armor. Mothers love/pheonix summoning/super patronus and time travel, (incidentally, the only time I really count it as a victory earned) brother wands/the ability to love/luck potion (book 6 didnt really have one of the big showdowns, but this solved the big problem) and of course, omniscient chunks of lumber that can recognize master changing from miles away.

Grytorm
2012-08-06, 06:12 PM
On the defenses for the Philosophers Stone. What was designed could be an actual reasonable defense if the point was to distract the intruders long enough for Dumbledore to arrive.

Another thought is that if you put a series of puzzles before your enemy they might try to solve something that has no answer when they reach the end. Creating further distractions.

Anecronwashere
2012-08-07, 12:33 AM
NOTE: I havent seen movies 6/7/8, only read the books.

Traab: You are assuming the wand detected the change. What if it was something that appeared in the person?

Elder Wand only owes it's allegiance to someone with ParasiteX.
ParasiteX is always looking for a better host, so whenever it's current host is disarmed it will transfer to the disarmer.
Elder Wand can detect ParasiteX.
Elder Wand can detect it's owner, despite a change in allegiance, without being present or being omniscient.

ParasiteX doesn't have to be a physical entity (it could be psychic or a magic-formed entity) or it could be nonliving, simply a transferable, non-weighted thing that the Elder Wand can detect.


Alternatively: The Elder Wand can perform passive Leglimency. Doing so gives it a basic truth/lie detection (or has some other way of detecting Truth/Lies). It didn't know Draco had been disarmed until the final battle, and so simply thought it's Master was Draco until it detected Harry telling the truth when he said he disarmed Draco.
This is why the wand didn't rebound the AK in the clearing, but did in Hogwarts. It didn't know Harry was the master of the Elder Wand until he did that whole speech. Also why Voldemort wasn't Co-Owner of the Wand (his soul was in Harry, sharing the body when Harry became Master) is because the Wand didn't know Voldemort's soul piece had become it's Master.

VanBuren
2012-08-07, 01:07 AM
Yeah, it's almost like the Elder Wand was somehow magical or something.