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Trixie
2012-07-17, 07:32 AM
Let's suppose you're adviser to new Batman comic/movie/whatever. Sadly, project is delayed, budget had to be cut, and the story requires omitting a few characters due to other issues.

Which out of these six character, IYHO, can't be cut for the new project to be a true Batman story? :smallconfused:

A) Alfred
B) Gordon
C) Joker
D) Catwoman
E) Robin
F) Thomas & Martha Wayne

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-17, 07:34 AM
G) Batman. Only this, and arguably this is negotiable.
Any or all of the rest could be cut and it would still be Batman.

Traab
2012-07-17, 07:45 AM
You cant cut the parents, because their death HAS to be mentioned or else it just isnt batman. So even if they only get a 30 second cameo before getting shot thats enough, but they need those 30 seconds. Alfred is a staple, but it might be possible to write out a decent batman story with him out of it, the rest are superfluous. Joker and catwoman could be replaced by any bad guy, robin hasnt turned out so well in any movie appearances so he can go away, and gordon is a useful guy to have on your side, but hardly critical. So yeah, my vote goes with F.

Dienekes
2012-07-17, 07:49 AM
what are we discussing here, a full run on the character, or just a quick story?

Full run on the character, umm they all should be there, but if I had to pick one I could ditch then I guess Catwoman.

Just one story? Any of them.

GeekGirl
2012-07-17, 07:56 AM
You cant cut the parents, because their death HAS to be mentioned or else it just isnt batman. So even if they only get a 30 second cameo before getting shot thats enough, but they need those 30 seconds. Alfred is a staple, but it might be possible to write out a decent batman story with him out of it, the rest are superfluous. Joker and catwoman could be replaced by any bad guy, robin hasnt turned out so well in any movie appearances so he can go away, and gordon is a useful guy to have on your side, but hardly critical. So yeah, my vote goes with F.

This was my first thought. But really, unless your doing the origin they don't matter. Batman TAS skipped it all together; the Waynes weren't in the show until mid 3rd season (I'm pretty sure), and that was just a dream forced on by the Mad Hatter.

I do agree with Tiki Snakes, you could cut any of them, I would say Alfred or Gordon would be the hardest.

Traab
2012-07-17, 08:59 AM
This was my first thought. But really, unless your doing the origin they don't matter. Batman TAS skipped it all together; the Waynes weren't in the show until mid 3rd season (I'm pretty sure), and that was just a dream forced on by the Mad Hatter.

I do agree with Tiki Snakes, you could cut any of them, I would say Alfred or Gordon would be the hardest.

Didnt the first batman movie with keaton have no gordon in it? I honestly dont recall if he had any role at all, or if it was that of just a name or something. And yeah, TAS didnt have a direct scene aside from the mad hatter episode, but I do believe his parents get mentioned from time to time during it as his reason for fighting or whatever. His parents death is the integral part of his origin. Its the tragedy that makes him different than the random heroes that get powers and decide to fight crime, or even those like spiderman who have their own tragedy that inspires them. It would be like having spiderman with him never getting the "with great power comes great responsibility" line. Its just an integral part of what motivates him.

Man on Fire
2012-07-17, 09:27 AM
G) Batman. Only this, and arguably this is negotiable.
Any or all of the rest could be cut and it would still be Batman.

Do I now? Some of the best batman stories I read didn't had that much of him. In Azazzelo's Joker he couldn't be count as more than a cameo, for example. I always thought that best Batman stories are really about einvorment he lives in, he need to be preset only in spirit for them to work.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-17, 09:43 AM
Ranked in descending order of importance to Batman Mythos:

-Catwoman
-Joker
-Robin
-Gordon
-Alfred
-Thomas & Martha Wayne

Which amusingly enough is almost the same order you used for "amount of story time they'd consume to be done right" where you'd just need to switch the Joker and Robin.

Ramza00
2012-07-17, 12:16 PM
Thomas and Martha Wayne are the most important aspect of Batman/Bruce Wayne's character for their death was the shock to his psyche that created the unstoppable drive for him being Batman. Bruce Wayne's obsession is Batman and it is unbreakable.

A hypothetical to prove my point, pretend that some all powerful being manipulated history in the Batman universe, Bruce Wayne still witnesses his parents death at the age of 8..

Bruce lives in a loving home with his uncle and alfred which dot on him and care for him as his own son. After highschool instead of going on a 12 year quest to become an unstoppable warrior (which cultimates in Batman) he instead goes to college where he meets a girl (for example Julie Madson), falls in love, and gets married. Julie and Bruce share everything in thought and mind thus they communicate their desires, fears, and wants to each other. Bruce Wayne is happy. Bruce and Julie use their vast wealth to try to fix the world's problems such as hunger and crime similar to the real world example of Bill and Melinda Gates.

Bruce Wayne though will eventually end up as Batman though, the reason is his psyche is so scarred, that even when he is living a perfect life, a life where he is happy and content, the murder he witnessed while he was 8 pulled away the curtain and showed Bruce the world is not as it should be. Eventually Bruce will become Batman in this fictional timeline, he will grow restless and frustrated until he takes it on himself trying to fix the world, on a personal level. A level that is only capable on grabbing a mask, cape, cowl and beating the **** out of thugs with his bare hands. Julie in this timeline knows Bruce's secret just like Alfred does and she keeps it to herself. She is happy for Bruce yet is worried sick for him for he risks his life in these nighttime endeavors.

And the thing is, if this hypothetical timeline were to occur it would change almost none of the Batman stories. Batman would still be Batman.

---------------------------------------

It doesn't even have to be his parents dying at the age of 8. It could be a teacher, an older friend, a cousin, an uncle just someone Bruce personally cares for and that he witnesses their death for no apparent reason.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-17, 12:19 PM
G) Batman. Only this, and arguably this is negotiable.
Any or all of the rest could be cut and it would still be Batman.

This. Remember, the project doesn't have to be an origin movie.

Archpaladin Zousha
2012-07-17, 12:28 PM
It would be like having spiderman with him never getting the "with great power comes great responsibility" line. Its just an integral part of what motivates him.
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN SPOILERS AHEAD!
They didn't have that line in the recent movie. The idea was still there, communicated by Uncle Ben, but it didn't use the actual line.
I agree with you that the idea of Batman's parent's being murdered still needs to be there in order to give Batman motivation to do what he does, but there are other ways that can be illustrated aside from a flashback to the night of the murder. He could talk about the murder to Alfred or something. If it's not telling Batman's origin story, there are lots of ways the death of his parents, and thus his motivations, can be illustrated.

Ramza00
2012-07-17, 12:32 PM
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN SPOILERS AHEAD!
They didn't have that line in the recent movie. The idea was still there, communicated by Uncle Ben, but it didn't use the actual line.
They did not use the original marvel universe of the line/speech. Instead they used almost verbatim the ultimate marvel universe uncle ben speech
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Story22.jpg
Link here for source
50 greatest spiderman stories of the last 50 years, number #22 “Power and Responsibility,” Ultimate Spider-Man #1-7 (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/06/26/50-greatest-spider-man-stories-25-21/)

dehro
2012-07-17, 01:03 PM
so I heard they're going to rewrite Batman..or something like that

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/767772_460s_v1.jpg

yes, the spelling..I know.

Dienekes
2012-07-17, 01:06 PM
Ranked in descending order of importance to Batman Mythos:

-Catwoman
-Joker
-Robin
-Gordon
-Alfred
-Thomas & Martha Wayne

Which amusingly enough is almost the same order you used for "amount of story time they'd consume to be done right" where you'd just need to switch the Joker and Robin.

Really? You think Catwoman is the most important part there? Cause honestly I think she's the least important.
The Waynes started the whole shebang with their deaths
Robin is the sidekick and acts as a counterpoint to Batman
Joker is Bats greatest opponent, and the one who tends to be involved in most of Bats greatest defeats
Gordon explains Bats relation to the cops
Alfred is the one that keeps Batman grounded in reality, and shares the burden of Bats secret

But Catwoman is just another of Bats potential love interests along with Vicki Vale, Talia al Ghul, Wonder Woman, ect. Hell she's not even the only iffy villain love interest.

If I would make a list of who is most important to the Mythos as a whole

Alfred: I really can't think of a Batman without Alfred, tidying up and making sure Batman doesn't do anything too crazy
Waynes: Like I said started the whole thing
Joker: The pinnacle of Batman's failures
Robin: The sidekick and hope for the future
Gordon: Kinda a lesser Alfred really as he tries to keep Batman grounded and also explains the relationship with the cops
Catwoman: The on again off again B plot to the series

GeekGirl
2012-07-17, 01:17 PM
Didnt the first batman movie with keaton have no gordon in it? I honestly dont recall if he had any role at all, or if it was that of just a name or something. And yeah, TAS didnt have a direct scene aside from the mad hatter episode, but I do believe his parents get mentioned from time to time during it as his reason for fighting or whatever. His parents death is the integral part of his origin. Its the tragedy that makes him different than the random heroes that get powers and decide to fight crime, or even those like spiderman who have their own tragedy that inspires them. It would be like having spiderman with him never getting the "with great power comes great responsibility" line. Its just an integral part of what motivates him.

Were you do have a point, the way I read the OP was, they were cut from the story. Not that they never existed, but they just aren't part of the story. Mentioning a character isn't the same as having them in the story. My point was if your not covering his origin in the story you're doing, then his parents aren't needed for it. To be fair, even if the movie series was rebooted, Batman is well known enough, you could skip the origin without a problem; every one knows how Batman became Batman



http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/767772_460s_v1.jpg

Greatest story ever ^_^

Maxios
2012-07-17, 01:20 PM
C, D, E whoops misread OP as list which characters can be cut
A, B, F

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-17, 01:35 PM
Really? You think Catwoman is the most important part there?

No I don't. Apologies on the confusion.

Rake21
2012-07-17, 01:58 PM
so I heard they're going to rewrite Batman..or something like that

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/767772_460s_v1.jpg

yes, the spelling..I know.

Thank you for that.

kpenguin
2012-07-17, 02:01 PM
G) Batman. Only this, and arguably this is negotiable.
Any or all of the rest could be cut and it would still be Batman.

This.

If we were talking about which character can't be cut from the Batman mythos, it'd be a different story. But otherwise, any one of those characters can, and have, been "Sir Not Appearing" in a good Batman story

Avilan the Grey
2012-07-17, 02:10 PM
Let's suppose you're adviser to new Batman comic/movie/whatever. Sadly, project is delayed, budget had to be cut, and the story requires omitting a few characters due to other issues.

Which out of these six character, IYHO, can't be cut for the new project to be a true Batman story? :smallconfused:

A) Alfred
B) Gordon
C) Joker
D) Catwoman
E) Robin
F) Thomas & Martha Wayne

A, B, C, F. Or put it another way: Batman is SO much better without Robin.

Tvtyrant
2012-07-17, 02:31 PM
In a movie? Any of them except Batman can be cut out. If the movie was about Mr. Freeze I wouldn't even want the Joker to be in it, and probably not Robin or Catwoman (although it would be fun to have Batman get captured, they go to save him, they get captured while he frees himself, and he has to go save them from saving him).

If it was canonical, I would say Alfred. You could mention the parents without ever showing them, but without Alfred Bruce Wayne would never have lived to become Batman. Part of what makes Batman work is that he is so motivated and zealous that he needs someone who cares only about him to keep him human.

I suppose Robin or Catwoman could fulfill that role, but you would need to seriously distort the way that the story progressed to do it.

Hopeless
2012-07-18, 05:41 AM
Let's suppose you're adviser to new Batman comic/movie/whatever. Sadly, project is delayed, budget had to be cut, and the story requires omitting a few characters due to other issues.

What about cameo's because I agree you could run this with just Batman and have everything else be new as long as you leave a mention of his past whether just a line from someone he meets as Bruce Wayne about his parents, have Bruce talk on the phone with Alfred otherwise you're good to go and thats probably the basis for Batman Incorporated!

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-18, 08:15 AM
You really don't need to mention Alfred or his parents, Most of the time Alfred doesn't even do anything, or serve any role storywise. Often he's only there so that Batman can explain something to someone when he's otherwise working alone.

Likewise his parents are just not important to 99% of all Batman stories. They might be an important part of Batman's origin, but if you fail to mention or allude to them it really won't make any difference.

Thinking about it, there's actually a much more difficult element to lose that wasn't listed either; Gotham itself.

Batman does do stuff outside of Gotham, especially in crossover events, but it often feels like they aren't real Batman stories. Conversely, there are plenty of Batman feeling stories set within Gotham where he is either specifically absent or appears for a single frame/cameo.

Fjolnir
2012-07-18, 08:49 AM
The point of Alfred is surrogate parent and morality figure. Even if there is no love interest or anything like that, Alfred is the character they use to show that bruceman is actually a relatable human rather than some crazy in a mask.

Anecronwashere
2012-07-18, 11:24 PM
Robin, Catwoman/Joker*, Parents, Gordon can be cut.
In other words:
A, C/D are essential

*one or the other can go but not both. If neither are in there it just doesn't feel right.
Batman always had a special relationship with these two and anything with Batman should have a plot involving them (a comic should have one of them in an arc/story, a movie in a series should have them as the main villain, they are recurring TV show villains etc.).

Gettles
2012-07-20, 04:12 AM
Gordon is the hardest cut.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-07-20, 04:43 PM
Alfred, because...Alfred. :smallbiggrin:

dps
2012-07-22, 12:35 AM
Ranked in descending order of importance to Batman Mythos:

-Catwoman
-Joker
-Robin
-Gordon
-Alfred
-Thomas & Martha Wayne

Which amusingly enough is almost the same order you used for "amount of story time they'd consume to be done right" where you'd just need to switch the Joker and Robin.

Obviously, based on your later post, you meant "ascending order", not "descending order".

And with that clarification, I'd agree with you--with the additional caveat that the parents are only important if you're doing his origin story, so if the story isn't the origin story, they can easily be cut.

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 12:39 AM
Alfred, because...Alfred. :smallbiggrin:
I agree Alfred is essential to the modern Batman, he provides sober, Jeeves-style gentle sardonicism that helps balance Batman's obsessiveness.
That being said, he wasn't always there.

Nekura
2012-07-22, 01:31 AM
All of them can be cut without problems. Now it has been years since I have seen it and I don't even know if I watched all the episodes but you just have to look at the Batman Beyond cartoon. Now I think they did mention some of the things in passing but for the most part it assumed the audience knew about the Batman story already and wanted to tell of the new Batman.

dehro
2012-07-22, 05:16 AM
in light of recent news, I'm feeling a little bad for the comic I posted earlier on this thread :smallfrown:

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 05:53 AM
in light of recent news, I'm feeling a little bad for the comic I posted earlier on this thread :smallfrown:
Yeah, a little harsh in hindsight.
Still, you didn't know, you couldn't know.
*hugs*