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nonsi
2012-07-18, 02:35 AM
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Hit Points – despite their absolute necessity – always posed a factor that caused several problems.
- Massive dependency upon heal-bots.
- Shortening of any adventuring party’s “work day”.
- Cost of precious game time spent on the excessive need for rest.

Well, I’ve recently encountered this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249097) and this (search for “Ohh, resting . . .”) (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showwiki.php?title=D+and+D+Next:+Mechanics#Hit+Poi nts):
After following these links and reading a bit, I came to the conclusion that the inspirations are valuables, but adopting the first would slow down the game too much and the second addresses something that doesn’t need addressing when it comes to the above issues – spellcasting recovery.

Therefore, I tried to use the provided discussions and find a formula that would somehow lengthen adventuring “workdays” and reduce dependency upon heal-bots, and at the same time offer mid-day HP recovery that makes sense.
I also didn’t want to resort to healing surges, since they never made sense to me.


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HP, Vitality Damage & Mortal Damage
- HP: A character’s hit points pose an opposing measurement to Vitality Damage and Mortal Damage. Both stack for determining the total damage taken (read on). This means that a target’s HP don’t change unless it gains a level or is energy-drained.
- Vitality Damage: Any attack that deals damage less than (or equal to) the target's Con-score (Cha-score for targets with no Con-score) deals Vitality Damage.
- Mortal Damage: Any attack that deals more Damage than the target's Con-score deals Mortal Damage equal to the excess damage. For instance, an attack that deals 15 Damage to a character with Con-12 deals 3 points of Mortal Damage. (15-12 = 3) and 12 points of Vitality Damage. The damage from iterative attacks stacks for this purpose. This makes iteratives more significant.
- Non-Lethal Damage: Non-lethal damage always counts as vitality damage, unless the total sustained damage (vitality + mortal) equals twice your HP or that you’re already dying (see below) – in which case it counts as mortal damage.

Dropping to 0 HP or Below
- Once the total of your vitality damage + mortal damage exceeds your HP, you fall unconscious. You regain consciousness when this total reaches 0 (disabled) or lower.
Special: Constructs & Undead count as being Paralyzed until they recover their vitality damage (see below)
- Any damage dealt after an attack that dropped you to 0 or fewer HP (except for non-lethal damage) fully counts as mortal damage. And, of course, Coup De Grace remains a viable option vs. helpless targets.
- Once your mortal damage = HP, you start dying (Constructs & Undead are immediately destroyed). Dying means stabilizing or else taking (mortal) damage as per the core rules. You die when your mortal damage equals your [HP + CON-Score] (using these rules, dropping to -10 HP is meaningless, unless your Con-score happens to be 10).

Resting & Recovering Damage
You get 4 rests per day: two short 10-minute ones, one 1-hour one, and one 8-hours one.
- 10-minutes restore 1/4 HP worth of vitality (doesn’t restore mortal damage).
- 1-hour – upon its completion – restores 1/2 HP worth of vitality.
- 8-hours remove all vitality damage and recover up to your HD worth of mortal damage, plus anything else that by RAW requires full night's rest.
Special: Constructs & Undead recover their HD worth of vitality damage per round, and don’t recover mortal damage by themselves at all without adequate supernatural or spell-like powers.

Healing Spells
- Mortal damage is healed first. Once all mortal damage is healed, vitality damage comes next.

Massive Damage
- Massive damage is caused when a single attack vs. a target with discernible anatomy deals mortal damage equal to 50% of its HP or more.

Negative HP & Diehard
- Diehard applies to unconsciousness due to vitality damage, not when actually dying (pushing on when actually dying requires something beyond Diehard). You suffer vitality damage for all cases where Diehard description says you take HP damage.

corran_132
2012-07-18, 03:59 PM
So I built a system of my own, so It doesn't exactly tie into DnD, but here are my HP/casting rules.

You Have X hp. You then have 5 hp levels.

- Winded- from 3/4 to full. No penalty
- bruised- from 1/2 to 3/4. light penalty
- beaten- from 1/4 to 1/2. medium penalty
- broken- from 1 to 1/4. heavy penalty
- unconscious- from -1/4 to 0. incapacitated

then, if the party's smart enough to take one of the skills, they all heal to 3/4 of full at any down time. Non-lethal damage acts as lethal, but can never move you below 0.

My system is made to have characters drop in 3-4 hits. items do get expended, so the idea of attrition can apply, but generally this lets players heal (mostly) between fights, but guard the first 1/4 of their HP. It's quick, as people say "well, we heal" and carry on. People can keep fighting, unless they REALLY need to hit something with high power. And I know that, so I build encounters accordingly.

Simultaneously, these abilities don't let you heal in combat (or at least not quickly), so they keep encounters moving, and force players to think more as it's harder to heal in the thick of battle.

As for spell casting, I just list my powers as uses/encounter or uses/day (really powerful spells). I know this really doesn't work with DnD 3.5, but I actually prefer it because it does deal with some of the problems mentioned.

Really beyond that it becomes an issue of dungeon design and pacing. If you can let the players rest, then doing so isn't bad. If they know they have more fights after this, they don't have to pull their punches. If you want them to progress quickly, make sure they have the strength to do so, and remember to pull their punches.

I then allow every player 1 "second wind" a day that they can trigger when below 1/4 and conscious. They gain back 1/2 their total, and get a bonus on their next roll.

About your system:

I get what your doing, but I honestly feel it's a little complex. Consider: when you take damage, you have to split it up, apply it, keep track of 3 numbers and totals, with different effects depending on how much of each you have, and introducing two new terms, the difference from which is not immediately apparent. I'm not saying "I'm right, your wrong" because my system honestly doesn't work with DnD that well, but it seems like there should be an easier way to deal with it.

Eldan
2012-07-18, 05:07 PM
Why is there a limit to how often you can rest per day? It sounds especially weird if you get in a situation where you have taken your two short rests, but not any of hte long rests. "Oh no, guys! We have to wait for another 50 minutes this time, or we won't feel rested at all!"

nonsi
2012-07-18, 05:57 PM
So I built a system of my own, so It doesn't exactly tie into DnD, but here are my HP/casting rules.

You Have X hp. You then have 5 hp levels.

- Winded- from 3/4 to full. No penalty
- bruised- from 1/2 to 3/4. light penalty
- beaten- from 1/4 to 1/2. medium penalty
- broken- from 1 to 1/4. heavy penalty
- unconscious- from -1/4 to 0. incapacitated

My problem with this is not flavor or realism, but bookkeeping.




then, if the party's smart enough to take one of the skills, they all heal to 3/4 of full at any down time. Non-lethal damage acts as lethal, but can never move you below 0.

I'm against making any feat a no-brainer (assuming "skills" is a typo).




My system is made to have characters drop in 3-4 hits. items do get expended, so the idea of attrition can apply, but generally this lets players heal (mostly) between fights, but guard the first 1/4 of their HP. It's quick, as people say "well, we heal" and carry on. People can keep fighting, unless they REALLY need to hit something with high power. And I know that, so I build encounters accordingly.

Simultaneously, these abilities don't let you heal in combat (or at least not quickly), so they keep encounters moving, and force players to think more as it's harder to heal in the thick of battle.

This is my personal issue, but......
You see, for me RPS is a form of escapism, and I can't do that when things get to feel like a video game (I'm especially referring to "well, we heal").




I then allow every player 1 "second wind" a day that they can trigger when below 1/4 and conscious. They gain back 1/2 their total, and get a bonus on their next roll.

I'd allow something like that only for a veteran warrior. Certainly not a bookworm mage.
A good example for a "second wind" scenario, in my book, is the enemy missing you stylishly while you score a natural 20. It doesn't even require house rules.




About your system:

I get what your doing, but I honestly feel it's a little complex. Consider: when you take damage, you have to split it up, apply it, keep track of 3 numbers and totals, with different effects depending on how much of each you have, and introducing two new terms, the difference from which is not immediately apparent.

Actually, that's 2 (one is constant).
many hits result in just vitality damage.
I also don't deal with different effects. All attacks are regarded exactly the same (including energy damage).
There's also no separation of effects: you drop when the sum surpasses your HP. You start dying when your mortal wounds surpass your HP. Non-Lethal damage only does vitality damage. That's the difference between becoming unconscious due to collapsing and becoming unconscious because you're dying.





I'm not saying "I'm right, your wrong" because my system honestly doesn't work with DnD that well, but it seems like there should be an easier way to deal with it.

Being someone who doesn't read manuals all that well myself, I think that reading this set of rules again might make it seem simpler.
On my part, I'll try to see if I can rephrase things for better clarity.

nonsi
2012-07-18, 06:05 PM
Why is there a limit to how often you can rest per day? It sounds especially weird if you get in a situation where you have taken your two short rests, but not any of hte long rests. "Oh no, guys! We have to wait for another 50 minutes this time, or we won't feel rested at all!"

For the same reason why you require daily rest in D&D in the first place.
I'm trying to maintain a certain level of realism here, that's all.
Try to exert yourself several time within a single day. You may require no more than short rests once or twice, but beyond that short rests won't cut it anymore (not even for olympic athletes).

If you allow infinite short rests, then why not allow full daily recovery (including spellcasting) at the end of every encounter ?
My answer would be: So that the game doesn't get a bad odor of a video game.

corran_132
2012-07-19, 10:02 AM
1- it's not a typo. I use a skill to heal slowly passively. Besides which, so long as "someone" has it, everyone heals to 3/4. Not everyone needs it.

2- your opinion is valid. I made the game for a certain feel, and I like it. It feels epic.

It also, baring coup de grace, makes it much harder to die, since mortality damage is always going to be so much lower than vitality damage. (by your own admission, most attacks only do the latter). Which is good I guess, but it also can make players do stupid things knowing they won't die. See to me, THIS feels like a video game, specifically Neverwinter Nights 2, where your allies can fall down, but they always get back up again at the end of combat, unless the DM makes a concerted effort to see that they don't.

3- sorry, missed that nonlethal wasn't another thing, but I don't feel it's that important (save thematically). due to the nature of your mechanics, it becomes very easy to drop people alive, even doing normal damage, since (by your own admission) most attacks only do vital damage.

4- it's a super hero RPG, so the camp factor and people getting up again is right at home.

I also don't think your book keeping comment is valid. For one thing, the penalties I apply don't apply to every roll, and are more like "can't run, can't take 10...". I calculate what the HP levels are when you make the character, then compare your total to the chart to see where you are. You are modifying every damage again and keeping track of a second number, and constantly summing the two. combine this with (and I know this isn't fair) your precision damage rules and your doing allot of extra calculations for each attack, because that much extra damage probably makes the difference between your two damage types, and pushes it into the upper range.

Here's the thing, players still aren't going to want to move on without full hp, and while this gives them another mechanism to get some back, the problem remains. Also, if they can take a 10 minute nap after each battle, all sense of urgency is pulled from the plot. The amount they heal is considerable if they take multiple naps, but the party resting for 10 minutes to gain back 1hp isn't really worth it. So you still need a dedicated healer, as do you for healing in battle, you just save them 1-2 low level spells per player per day, if that. Besides which, you actually need a healer more, since otherwise morality damage goes away far too slowly.

In another sense, you've just brought back a form of healing surges, in that you get so many heal X hp a day, but they now take longer to use and put more restriction on what type of damage they can heal.

Also, if your resting this much more a day, you're not fixing one of your three problems (cost of precious game time spent as players need to rest).

Also, my players always wanted to heal to full (or almost) anyway. That's why I built my mechanics to speed the game along by saying 'it's done, now get on with it". My mechanics aren't perfect, but they do match your three criteria.

And yeah, it's kind of video gamey, but I also haven't had players complain yet, and I solved the problems you listed.

nonsi
2012-07-19, 01:01 PM
I also don't think your book keeping comment is valid. For one thing, the penalties I apply don't apply to every roll, and are more like "can't run, can't take 10...".

Count me curious.
Now I'm interested in seeing the full list.




The amount they heal is considerable if they take multiple naps, but the party resting for 10 minutes to gain back 1hp isn't really worth it.

"10-minutes restore up to your HD worth of vitality damage" means 1 HP per HD per 10-min rest.




In another sense, you've just brought back a form of healing surges, in that you get so many heal X hp a day, but they now take longer to use and put more restriction on what type of damage they can heal.

Ok, just for the sake of illustration.
Remember the part in LotR where Aragorn fell off the cliff and barely made it to shore?
Remember how a day or two after that he fought like a demon from hell defending the fort ?
That's what I'm talking about.




Also, if your resting this much more a day, you're not fixing one of your three problems (cost of precious game time spent as players need to rest).

As far as my experience goes, most of the gametime wasted on rests results from spell preparation & selection, not recalculation of HP.




Also, my players always wanted to heal to full (or almost) anyway. That's why I built my mechanics to speed the game along by saying 'it's done, now get on with it". My mechanics aren't perfect, but they do match your three criteria.

And yeah, it's kind of video gamey, but I also haven't had players complain yet, and I solved the problems you listed.

If that's what rocks your boat, more power to you then.

corran_132
2012-07-19, 02:00 PM
1-my HP track

winded: no penalty
Bruised: no auto sucesses (taking 10 is bigger in my system, and there is a way to take 20 in combat. Not easy, but possible)
Beaten: can't run
Broken: counted as surprised against everything.
Incapacitated: self expanitory

2- I was talking about at first level. Even then, I don't think 1 hp is worth it (except maybe to wizards). Even as you level up, your only getting 3 back a rest at 3rd level, which still isn't very much. Put it another way: the amount you get back from a rest is equal to your HD (approximately equal to your level). The damage you take from a single attack is generally going to be greater than that, so each rest doesn't give you back enough HP to survive another hit in the next battle you fight. I had this same problem coming up with battle regeneration: at what point is it not worth it because it doesn't help you, and at what point does it become to amazing.

3- right, I get that, but he also definitely had a chance to rest in between there. I can't exactly remember the resting rules for DnD, but I'm still pretty sure he would have retrieved some health regardless.

nonsi
2012-07-20, 12:16 AM
2- I was talking about at first level. Even then, I don't think 1 hp is worth it (except maybe to wizards). Even as you level up, your only getting 3 back a rest at 3rd level, which still isn't very much. Put it another way: the amount you get back from a rest is equal to your HD (approximately equal to your level). The damage you take from a single attack is generally going to be greater than that, so each rest doesn't give you back enough HP to survive another hit in the next battle you fight. I had this same problem coming up with battle regeneration: at what point is it not worth it because it doesn't help you, and at what point does it become to amazing.


I see your point.
Then how about . . .
- 10-min restore 1/4 HP worth of vitality
- 1 hour restores 1/2 HP worth of vitality
- Full night's rest restores all vitality damage + HD worth of mortal damage + anything else that by RAW requires full night's rest.

Eldan
2012-07-20, 08:50 PM
For the same reason why you require daily rest in D&D in the first place.
I'm trying to maintain a certain level of realism here, that's all.
Try to exert yourself several time within a single day. You may require no more than short rests once or twice, but beyond that short rests won't cut it anymore (not even for olympic athletes).

If you allow infinite short rests, then why not allow full daily recovery (including spellcasting) at the end of every encounter ?
My answer would be: So that the game doesn't get a bad odor of a video game.

I would have no problem with that, to be honest. I mean, in most situations, waiting is bad for the players. More time for the bad guys to prepare, for the apocalypse to advance, for a patrol to find them, whatever.

How about, for a quick compromise, allowing you to trade longer rests for shorter ones? So that if you don't have enough time for a one-hour rest, you can still get some HP back if you are out of short rests.

nonsi
2012-07-21, 01:08 AM
I would have no problem with that, to be honest. I mean, in most situations, waiting is bad for the players. More time for the bad guys to prepare, for the apocalypse to advance, for a patrol to find them, whatever.

See post #9.




How about, for a quick compromise, allowing you to trade longer rests for shorter ones? So that if you don't have enough time for a one-hour rest, you can still get some HP back if you are out of short rests.

1. Too much bookkeeping.
2. I want players to calculate their resources and not rely too much on resting. Spending 10-min for gaining 1/4 HP recovery to vitality is decent in my view. After you've used up both, you can decide if matters are pressing and healing spells are a necessity, or if you can wait out the hour and revitalize naturally.

137ben
2012-07-21, 10:28 AM
Interesting ideas. I think the OP's system is to complex to use in a normal game. My ideal system (which I have used before) is that everyone has a necessary "to damage" score, and only 4 or 5 hp. Once an attack hits, the attacker rolls a d20 against the "to damage" score of the target. A success indicates that 1hp is dealt, a failure indicates that the target absorbed the hit. Critical success on a damage roll deals 2hp, while critical success on an attack roll yields two damage rolls.

This means everyone has one more stat, but it reduces a lot of the book keeping of having 127 out of 235 hp.

nonsi
2012-07-22, 12:05 PM
Interesting ideas. I think the OP's system is to complex to use in a normal game. My ideal system (which I have used before) is that everyone has a necessary "to damage" score, and only 4 or 5 hp. Once an attack hits, the attacker rolls a d20 against the "to damage" score of the target. A success indicates that 1hp is dealt, a failure indicates that the target absorbed the hit. Critical success on a damage roll deals 2hp, while critical success on an attack roll yields two damage rolls.

This means everyone has one more stat, but it reduces a lot of the book keeping of having 127 out of 235 hp.

1. What you're describing is too great a deviation from D&D and carries video-game feel that I don't like.
2. The point of this homebrew is not simplification, but a means for:
a. An overall better exploitation of a group's gametime.
b. A means of beating someone to unconsciousness without rendering it dying.
c. Generally, a more realistic illustration of a creature's overall life force, fighting spirit and energy reserve.