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AgentofHellfire
2012-07-21, 05:22 PM
So in the large amount of time the game's been around, certain character archetypes have formed. Certain character archetypes have been maintained. And certain character ideas have never been tested. If you want a place to bitch about any of this, look no further.

Here is the place to complain about how every goddamn X is a Y, or A is a B, or example I'm giving you is a letter. And I'll start us off with some of my own complaining.


Every Rogue is a Thief: Those of you who mentioned this, well, you aren't alone. I find it intensely aggravating as well.

Every Good-Aligned Character Fights in the Name of Justice: On this forum, at least, I see the stereotype doesn't hold sway, but there are many people I've met that believe alignment and motivation are the same thing. They are not.

Every Druid is a Hippie: There are four possible alignments a Druid can have, why does there only seem to be one personality? To say nothing of the fact that what "nature's way" is isn't exactly set in stone.

Every Wizard is Only Good for Spellcasting: The amount of backlash I've gotten in the past for playing wizards with worldly knowledge, or even a social focus...

Rallicus
2012-07-21, 06:05 PM
Every ranger is a silent, stoic type who constantly wears a green cloak.

Every plate-wearing female character has boob plate.

Anything to do alignments. Alignments are retarded... at least in DnD.

Dark Elf Bard
2012-07-21, 06:14 PM
Every Paladin "guides" his party

Every Halfling is a kleptomaniac or a Belkar rip-off

Many more will come soon.

Falconer
2012-07-21, 06:18 PM
Evil PCs will by nature backstab the party, kill orphans, and otherwise loot, pillage, and burn their way through a campaign just to be a ****. And you know what? There's arguably even a time and place for that. But some of us like playing evil characters that actually have, you know, personalities--ones that exist beyond where they ping on the good-evil axis.

Pokonic
2012-07-21, 06:19 PM
When a monster race mates with a non-monster race, the result will be a paladin who strives to be unfettered by his less civilised half.

Averis Vol
2012-07-21, 06:57 PM
half orcs

elves

Y'all know exactly what i mean.

but to specify for those who don't, every half orc is a mindless dolt useful for nothing more the "Grok smash!!!" and born of rape.

And every elf is an arrogant, stuffed up prick who thumbs his nose to the other races while trying to systematically push their ways upon others in a close to genocidal way.

Also

The DM is god.

The player should always win every fight ever.

Korivan
2012-07-21, 07:02 PM
Our stereotypes that we deal with are the ones that deal outside the game.
for example: People that play DnD are all virgins that can't get a girl (truth is the guy that taught me, his brother, me, two of my friend that I taught DnD to are all married.)

Eldan
2012-07-21, 07:04 PM
Paladins can't eat babies. Pleease. I can have legitimate reasons, you know.

Mastikator
2012-07-21, 07:06 PM
Whenever a village is raided it's by orcs or goblins or something, never by humans, elves, dwarves, halflings or gnomes.

Slipperychicken
2012-07-21, 07:10 PM
Every Princess is Hot. Haven't seen one mediocre-looking princess yet.

Barons are Always Lawful Evil. Back in the early medieval days, there wasn't much distinguishing a Baron from a King except the title. Sometimes, a Baron might even be politically/militarily stronger than a King.

Kingdoms are good, and Empires are Bad. This only applies to worlds where both exist.

Orcs are always child-eating barbarians. I really want to see Orcs living in cities, doing heavy-lifting and other jobs no-one else will. Even an exceptionally-smart Orc serving as a manager would help break the tedium.

Nobles-kids constantly run away and join bands of adventurers. The attrition rate is pretty crazy, considering nobles have plenty of adventuring opportunities already (between the army, expeditions, and straight-up world-traveling).

Roguenewb
2012-07-21, 07:11 PM
Every Sorcerer is gay. Goddamn that guy in the PHB with his ridiculous outfit.

Every bard is silly.

Every barbarian is just an mindless rage machine. All Conan, no wise man of the wild.

Every favored soul is hated by his church.

(This one may be limited to my group) Every Spellthief is a genocidal evil antiimage.

Slipperychicken
2012-07-21, 07:15 PM
(This one may be limited to my group) Every Spellthief is a genocidal evil antiimage.

I got one who self-identified as a thief, and constantly attacks the party before teleporting away. For some reason, the PCs never get around to finishing him off.



Every Sorcerer is gay. Goddamn that guy in the PHB with his ridiculous outfit.


That's just his Charisma-score showing :smallbiggrin:

DontEatRawHagis
2012-07-21, 07:46 PM
Stereotypes and my way to flip them:

Trolls are stupid/idiots
Most of the time Trolls, Orges and Giants are placed the same dumb brutes stereotype. As such my next campaign I will have my players find the underground city of trolls. Where the trolls keep ancient treasure out of the hands of the idiot above worlders. They act stupid in order to throw off their enemies.

Fighters are idiots
This I manage to subvert every game I play. Most of the enemies are not Wizards or Magic Users using magic to subvert the world. Instead I favor military warlords who have the tactical minds to utilize the abilities of others through blackmail and torture. My last villain was the son of a powerful sorcerer who was cast out for not knowing magic.

Orcs are Barbarians and Orc vs Dwarf hostilities.
In one of my games Orcs were actually military tacticians who worked with Dwarves. The Dwarves supplied them weapons where they supplied labor. Also I had it that the Orcs utilized magic in order to create their armor, as such it looked like they wore little armor, but in actuallity they had the equivellent of plate mail on.

navar100
2012-07-21, 07:50 PM
Every paladin "needs an operation".

Being Lawful Good means you must be a square and behave saintly.

Dwarves drink.

Elves are pompous snobs to everyone and are the best at everything except mining, of which the dwarves are the best.

Every race has a racial god except humans.

All races have one country, except humans. (Dragonlance is the exception vis-a-vis elves, and as far as I'm concerned they deserve their recent problems. See above.)

The war god is male and evil. The love god is female.

There exists a human female-dominated nation where men are treated worse than vermin.

Clerics are only good for healing.

It is always some person or entity of Goodness who gets corrupted. Could be a cleric, an angel, a god who is losing his/her power. Never once is it a Devil or Demon redeemed or an evil god who sees the light and changes his path for his followers.

The Lawful Good nation is in decline. The king is sick or recently killed while his heir is a baby. Enemy forces are figuratively or sometimes literally on the borders.

The Golden Age of magic was long ago. Powerful things PCs could never do now even with 9th level spells were the norm.

Every city has a black market.

There exists a secret powerful society of thieves/assassins that has spies everywhere and knows everything.

Gnome Alone
2012-07-21, 08:06 PM
Paladins are servants of a god: They are not. They are champions of the abstract forces of Good itself. Gods do not have to come into it, it freaking says basically this in its description of paladins in the PHB. It's a conflation of the holy warrior trope from our own culture with every paladin ever in DnD and it's irritating to me. One of these days I'm gonna roll me up an atheist, anarchist paladin and embody the paladin code to the nth degree at the same time.

AgentofHellfire
2012-07-21, 09:07 PM
Every barbarian is just an mindless rage machine. All Conan, no wise man of the wild.


Almost this.


Except I tend to go for less "Conan" and "wise man of the wild" and more "Lord of a Hellhole who got to the top through cunning and ruthlessness".

Craft (Cheese)
2012-07-21, 09:11 PM
Every Wizard is Only Good for Spellcasting: The amount of backlash I've gotten in the past for playing wizards with worldly knowledge, or even a social focus...

This is a special case of a more specific stereotype, Every character is not allowed to have personality aside from their race/class combination, or a direct subversion thereof. Like how the Paladin (of any race) has to be either the boring pure guy who's always giving friendship speeches or the overbearing jackass who slaughters everything he sees for being "impure."

Incidentally this is also the more general case of "Rogues = Thieves."

Morithias
2012-07-21, 09:44 PM
Every race has a racial god except humans.


Actually Humans do have a racial god. A Lawful Evil god called "Zairus" I think it was. Who believes the humans are the ideal race and all other races should be exterminated.

That tells you how much elves have pissed people off in what is canon for the human gods, is more often applied to the elves.

And hey, I'll actually buy his view on it. Look at it from Zairus's point of view, 90% of all min/maxed builds are human in base race, one can logically point out that from a crunch standpoint, the humans are one of the best non-la races in existence.

Razgriez
2012-07-21, 10:13 PM
Every paladin "needs an operation".

Being Lawful Good means you must be a square and behave saintly.
Hilariously enough, the square is untrue, and the Saintly part only applies if you're using Book of Exalted Deeds, and even then, there's nothing that says "You must Abstain from everything fun" (Except some of the various Vows of the Exalted Feats, and some of the Sanctified spells which requires Sacrifices and Abstain requirements to use, there's nothing saying that Lawful good can't have fun, even Paladins)


Every race has a racial god except humans. Well actually, the DnD Humans do.

By technicality, we have Pelor, who in the standard DnD Pantheon of 3.X, is the one that is listed as being worshiped by humans the most. We also have Heironeous, who is often depicted as a Human man, and Hextor whose the same, but with Spikes of Villainy.

Of course, if you want some true "Human only" well look to Races of Destiny, where uhm.. we kinda get two rather annoying ones. The lesser god Urbanus, a human god of Cities. He's a Neutral Good god of Cities, Growth, and Improvement... oh... wait what's that? You're a Human and don't live in a city? Well you see, you don't fall under his protection.

And then there's Zarus, the "True" Human god. He's a Greater God, ... he's also Lawful Evil, and basically, the world of DND just won't let him fail, ever.


Other things that annoy me:
-No one ever has a problem about pillaging graveyard/tomb/cairn/catacombs ever, not even good aligned Clerics, or Paladins (Because there's always a convenient undead infestation, the grave robbi... errr "reclamation of items from those who no longer need them" is just an extra perk).

-Likewise, everyone always seems surprised, that some necromancer would go into such unguarded areas, and just start raising an army.

-Lawful Good will always use Sword and Shields if possible, Chaotic good will always use bows, two handed, and Two weapons.

-The region/world's general population and bards never openly talk and sing about the PCs' party and deeds until after the campaign has finished. (Come on, even for 25 Gold, I manage to get Bards in Skyrim to sing about me!)

-Paladins must apparently always have a stick shoved up somewhere.

-The Rogue or Bard always try to annoy the Paladin

-Samurais must apparently commit ritual suicide over the slightest misstep, or become hated, and exiled ronin.

-The Ultimate weapon of Goodness is always a sword that cleaves evil (and further annoyingly, it's never named "Sanger Zonvolt")

-Scythe wielders are always evil, or worshipers of Death gods.

-The Airship will always have Magical flapping wings, or Propeller blades, it can never be advanced looking.

-The Kingdom's one weak spot? Background and alignment checks on advisers

Craft (Cheese)
2012-07-21, 10:36 PM
-The Airship will always have Magical flapping wings, or Propeller blades, it can never be advanced looking.

http://images.wikia.com/eberron/images/4/43/Skyship.jpg

Razgriez
2012-07-21, 10:45 PM
Don't tell me... Eberron, right?

*ahem*

All Airships (That aren't Eberron based) having the aforementioned Flapping bird wings and Helicopter like Propellers (Even though I don't play the Eberron setting, I do applaud it's vehicle designs that I've seen)

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-21, 10:59 PM
On the Troll steryotypes.

In the oldest myths about them? They were powerful, cunning and ruthless mages, with enough brains and arcane power to make a dragon look like a lizard with wings.

They were the elder giants, primordial elemental beings, cast down and broken because they fought a long and bitter war with the gods themselves.... AND THE GODS COULDN'T FINISH 'EM OFF. And they've been nursing a grudge.

I hate how Trolls are dumbed down:smallmad:

Jay R
2012-07-21, 11:00 PM
All elf women are beautiful. There's never been a plain elf in the history of the world.

Slipperychicken
2012-07-21, 11:03 PM
PCs who have no problem with looting countless tombs, sarcophagi, catacombs, and generally stripping every corpse they encounter... but cannot stand the thought of looting a fallen comrade and start spouting hypocritical bull**** like: "You need to respect the dead!", "What would he think of your behavior now?", or "We're not theives! We're better than that!"

And they might even do this while robbing someone's tomb.

MurphysLaw159
2012-07-21, 11:43 PM
-Evil cultists are either Sexy Seductresses or Roting Flesh Freaks.

-Insanity = Evil (huge can of worms if you give it ANY thought)

-The Ancient Being Beyond Mortal Ken is either evil or appathetic, never the least bit benevolent

-Every overly decent person trying (and succeding) at makeing a difference in the world (that's not a PC) has some evil alterior motive.

-The PC party is the only adventuring party in the world OR the other ones that are found are dead/dieing OR they are evil/join the wrong side for some reason OR are no where near as effective as the PC group OR are retired/dead legends.

GenericGuy
2012-07-22, 01:42 AM
Kingdoms are good, and Empires are Bad. This only applies to worlds where both exist.

This always bugs me, so I always go out of my way to subvert it. Now I’m a cynical guy so rarely do I have “good” or “bad” nations, all nations are competing against one another for their own and people’s interests, but my empires tend to be far more beneficial for the common folk and tend to be far more multi-racial (comes with conquering foreign lands) while kingdoms tend to be homogeneous run by tyrants and decrepit nobility.

Chaotic good is incorruptible: Every Lawful good character is one bad day away from becoming a fascist, while the chaotic good will always be a lovable rogue who never falls.

No Females of “monstrous” races: Orcs, trolls, goblins and even dwarves more often than not tend to be bereft of any women.

Necromancy is evil: This type of magic is “unnatural,” as appose to all other magic, and can only be done by evil people.

Good sibling evil sibling determined by gender: If two siblings are warring against one another for control of a kingdom, guild, or what have you, the good sibling will be female and the evil one male.

The pirates who don’t do anything: Thieves and pirates aren’t criminals who take advantage of the weak and helpless, but are guys who just “stick it to the man.”

Blisstake
2012-07-22, 02:10 AM
All elf women are beautiful. There's never been a plain elf in the history of the world.

Well, there's Mialee.

Although she's not really plain... more of extemely disturbing to look at.

Gamgee
2012-07-22, 02:14 AM
Every Sorcerer is gay. Goddamn that guy in the PHB with his ridiculous outfit.

Every bard is silly.

Every barbarian is just an mindless rage machine. All Conan, no wise man of the wild.

Every favored soul is hated by his church.

(This one may be limited to my group) Every Spellthief is a genocidal evil antiimage.
Don't know what Conan you read, but in the original stories he is often portrayed as a very smart person. Smarter than a lot of the so called civilized people, at least in some ways. People forget this when trying to make Conan rip offs.

Gnomish Wanderer
2012-07-22, 02:20 AM
Every Princess is Hot. Haven't seen one mediocre-looking princess.


It is always some person or entity of Goodness who gets corrupted. Could be a cleric, an angel, a god who is losing his/her power. Never once is it a Devil or Demon redeemed or an evil god who sees the light and changes his path for his


The Ancient Being Beyond Mortal Ken is either evil or appathetic, never the least bit benevolent

Woot, this thread makes me feel good. The only three steroetypes out of all the listed ones I use are these three. ^.^

Athe one annoying stereotype I can't seem to get past is A group of strangers somehow near instantly intimitely trust one another and decide to adventure together. My players aren't always like this but it happens too frequently.

Malimar
2012-07-22, 02:23 AM
Every Princess is Hot. Haven't seen one mediocre-looking princess yet.

This gives me an idea for my campaign...

A related stereotype that occurs to me by virtue of I've subverted it pretty heavily: Every Prince Or Princess Is An Only Child.


Barons are Always Lawful Evil. Back in the early medieval days, there wasn't much distinguishing a Baron from a King except the title. Sometimes, a Baron might even be politically/militarily stronger than a King.

...very guilty of this one.


Kingdoms are good, and Empires are Bad. This only applies to worlds where both exist.

Subverted! Every nation in my world is horrible and corrupt, Kingdom and Empire alike!


All races have one country, except humans.

The war god is male and evil. The love god is female.

Crud, guilty on both counts.

EDIT: Actually, huh, I just realized I don't even have a god of war. I've got a god of destruction, and I've got a god whose portfolio include righteous war against evil, but no war god. Completely guilty of the female god of love fertility and agriculture, though. Which is odd, because the goddess in question is basically a gender-flipped Bacchus/Dionysus with slightly different emphases.


No Females of “monstrous” races: Orcs, trolls, goblins and even dwarves more often than not tend to be bereft of any women.

Related to both this and to "Every Princess Is Hot": Every Female Character Is Hot.

I love to subvert both "No Females of 'Monstrous' Races" frequently. Most memorably with Big the female half-ogre paladin (and her mother, an ogress bard who left a trail of men with broken hearts and broken pelvises), but also with many NPCs. In part because mongrelfolk is the most populous race in my campaign setting.

Which in turn reminds me of another stereotype: Humans are always the most populous race.


The pirates who don’t do anything: Thieves and pirates aren’t criminals who take advantage of the weak and helpless, but are guys who just “stick it to the man.”

I have both done this one and subverted it.

Hopeless
2012-07-22, 02:28 AM
When a monster race mates with a non-monster race, the result will be a paladin who strives to be unfettered by his less civilised half.

You mean the human half?:smallwink:

After all we've all heard of werewolves but when have we ever had trouble with werehumans?:smallbiggrin:

Hopeless
2012-07-22, 02:33 AM
Every Paladin "guides" his party

Every Halfling is a kleptomaniac or a Belkar rip-off

Many more will come soon.

Yes experienced the first for myself and I was playing the halfling as a better Paladin than the Paladin himself and she was a sorceress!

Had to multi-class as a rogue because the dm decided during the third or fourth game session to restrict the multi-class options even though i was the only original player who openly stated my character was mulit-classing from the very beginning except I was trying to have a good reason for it instead of the dwarf fighter going up a level and declaring he was taking a level of ranger for no obvious reason!
The fact the next four new players all ran Rangers was purely coincedental!

Hopeless
2012-07-22, 02:41 AM
Paladins are servants of a god: They are not. They are champions of the abstract forces of Good itself. Gods do not have to come into it, it freaking says basically this in its description of paladins in the PHB. It's a conflation of the holy warrior trope from our own culture with every paladin ever in DnD and it's irritating to me. One of these days I'm gonna roll me up an atheist, anarchist paladin and embody the paladin code to the nth degree at the same time.

And I for one would love to be present when you do so!:smallbiggrin:

Hopeless
2012-07-22, 03:29 AM
-The Ultimate weapon of Goodness is always a sword that cleaves evil (and further annoyingly, it's never named "Sanger Zonvolt")

They obviously haven't watched Super Robot Wars or just not enough of the series (all of them) to properly understand why it should be so!:smallwink:


-Scythe wielders are always evil, or worshipers of Death gods.

So they've never met any farmers then?


-The Airship will always have Magical flapping wings, or Propeller blades, it can never be advanced looking.

Sounds like they've been watching not enough Final Fantasy trailers then!:smallbiggrin:


-The Kingdom's one weak spot? Background and alignment checks on advisers

Well... yes they must have an influx of rings of mind shielding!

Averis Vol
2012-07-22, 04:24 AM
So they've never met any farmers then?]

Ya know, my group actually ran into a farmer tonight and freaked out when i told them he was leaning on his well sharpened scythe with a scowl on his face. he was jsut tired after a day of work honestly. :smalltongue:

The Random NPC
2012-07-22, 05:49 AM
-The PC party is the only adventuring party in the world OR the other ones that are found are dead/dieing OR they are evil/join the wrong side for some reason OR are no where near as effective as the PC group OR are retired/dead legends.

There's a reason for this one, if another party is equal or more effective, why is it your party is the one to save the world? It would be best to hire them both, and since they probably have the same leads, they'll be joining you. All of a sudden, you have a DMPC party joining the regular one. Watch them be awesome!

Ranting Fool
2012-07-22, 06:35 AM
This thread is cracking me up, sadly I've seen so many of these but the one that bugs me the most is....

Halflings are ALWAYS rogues/thieves. bloody Bilbo Baggins! :smallbiggrin: to often my players see a halfling and think "Ah me must be a stealthy untrustworthy little git!" and then I end up pandering to this :smalltongue:

Dwarves are bad at magic *sigh*

and yes the all monsters are male unless they are meant to seduce the PC's

Advisers to the king/leader are always evil

Good wears white/bright colours and Evil likes black

You can always tell a cultst by his black robe

Heck just most the stuff from Here (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

Hyena
2012-07-22, 06:49 AM
These annoy me so much, I can barely bear it.
Necromancy is evil - no, not butchering people to raise them as undead. Necromancy as a whole. Raising skeletons? Evil magic! Just because... Uh... Skulls and... uh... other evil... stuff. How exactly necromancy is evil? Does it torment spirits of the dead? It does not.
If the villain is redeemable, she is (almost always) a woman. - because men are much eviler, you know, and women are misguided. On the other hand...
If someone is kidnapped, it's a woman, never man. - I guess that's because party wouldn't want to rescue a prince.
Paladin annoys the party just because, the party thief never does something wrong. - duh.

Mono Vertigo
2012-07-22, 06:54 AM
- Goblins, kobolds, and other stock humanoid monster races are always evil and deserving to be killed. The Giant and his comic are doing a much better job at explaining what's wrong with that train of thought than I.
- All adventurers are male. If they aren't, then they are defined by their unrestrained sexiness or their chastity, but are always pretty and sufficiently young. Ahahahahah... no. Just no. Look around you IRL. There are many women who have diverse goals and personalities, and few look like top models. And they almost always fall somewhere between "sex goddess" and "prude virgin". That's because they're people too. It's more than okay to play a woman whose sexuality doesn't influence most of her decisions, or who has little charisma. If you can play fantasy races "right" without actually having seen any of them IRL, then playing a 3-dimensional female shouldn't be that hard.
- Following on that, All physical warriors are male. Unless they're also stealthy or look really pretty while fighting, in which case they're female. I'm not talking about amazons, I'm talking about warriors wearing decent armor and combating with sufficient strength, who also happen to be female. Similarly, graceful mystical warriors can be male. And not gay. Really.
- Rogues are incurable kleptomaniacs. No, they don't feel obligated to steal anything that's not attached or on fire, I swear. That would be PCs. :smallamused:

North_Ranger
2012-07-22, 07:41 AM
All elf women are beautiful. There's never been a plain elf in the history of the world.

...by human standards. Who knows? Maybe elven men find their women "butterfaces" :smallbiggrin:

All joking aside, I think Pathfinder manages a nice balance between beauty and otherworldly, alien charisma with its elves. Those single-colour eyes will haunt you...

http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/images/674625/merisiel_35.png

North_Ranger
2012-07-22, 07:48 AM
Chaotic good is incorruptible: Every Lawful good character is one bad day away from becoming a fascist, while the chaotic good will always be a lovable rogue who never falls.


Pathfinder again has a nice play on this... the CG nation of Nirmathas, essentially a country being run by a bunch of Robin Hoodesque woodsmen. Constantly getting attacked by their southern neighbour, but the pantyhose-wearing freedom fighters can't get their act together because no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do.

I giggled when reading that entry, and I love playing CG characters.

AgentofHellfire
2012-07-22, 08:43 AM
Chaotic good is incorruptible: Every Lawful good character is one bad day away from becoming a fascist, while the chaotic good will always be a lovable rogue who never falls.
.

The pirates who don’t do anything: Thieves and pirates aren’t criminals who take advantage of the weak and helpless, but are guys who just “stick it to the man.”


These two are actually ones I really hate the most out of everything you said, and I've actually made entire worlds subverting this--where the "Chaotic Good" types actually have become the man and are in fact ten-thousand times worse than the lawfuls ever were. :smallbiggrin:

Xuc Xac
2012-07-22, 08:57 AM
Paladins can't eat babies. Pleease. I can have legitimate reasons, you know.

Modest reasons? :smallwink:


Every Princess is Hot. Haven't seen one mediocre-looking princess yet.

That's what happens when you have the benefit of superior nutrition and living conditions for your entire life starting even before birth.



Nobles-kids constantly run away and join bands of adventurers. The attrition rate is pretty crazy, considering nobles have plenty of adventuring opportunities already (between the army, expeditions, and straight-up world-traveling).

What do you think "adventuring" is? Back in the days of primogeniture, it was standard procedure for the non-eldest sons to join a mercenary company to try to make their own fortunes because big brother gets to inherit everything. If there had been dragon hoards in the real world in the middle ages, those guys would have been all over it.


Every barbarian is just an mindless rage machine. All Conan, no wise man of the wild.

Conan was a wise man of the wild. "Smarter and tougher because he's not weakened by civilization" is his core character trait.


Every city has a black market.

That's not a stereotype; that's just a fact of life. The only city in the world that doesn't have a "black market" is Mogadishu: they just have a "market" because there are no laws for them to break by selling something illegally.


Except I tend to go for less "Conan" and "wise man of the wild" and more "Lord of a Hellhole who got to the top through cunning and ruthlessness".

Rising to the top through cunning and ruthlessness is the basic plot of half the Conan stories. He even became king of a country by working his way up the ranks of their military as a mercenary and then staging a coup.


After all we've all heard of werewolves but when have we ever had trouble with werehumans?:smallbiggrin:

The "were-" in "werewolf" means "man". A "werehuman" makes as much sense semantically as a superhero called "Man-man" ("he has the strength of one man!").


-Scythe wielders are always evil, or worshipers of Death gods.

It's a very awkward and ineffective weapon. The only reason to use one is for thematic or ideological purposes. Farmers who had to go to war with a scythe would remount the blade to make a polearm like a fauchard.


Ya know, my group actually ran into a farmer tonight and freaked out when i told them he was leaning on his well sharpened scythe with a scowl on his face. he was jsut tired after a day of work honestly. :smalltongue:

If the day of work is over, why is the scythe still sharp? It's obviously a trap! :smallbiggrin:

Jay R
2012-07-22, 09:05 AM
If a group of people have shared several adventures together, never finding another friend they trust to join their group, and then two of them die, exactly two new friends they will trust completely will join them before their next adventure.

The Random NPC
2012-07-22, 09:30 AM
If the day of work is over, why is the scythe still sharp? It's obviously a trap! :smallbiggrin:

Obviously, part of his work is to sharpen everyone's scythes.

Sir_Gabes
2012-07-22, 10:02 AM
Kingdoms are good, and Empires are Bad. This only applies to worlds where both

L5R setting anyone? How about Warhammer? (No one is really a good guy in warhammer)

toapat
2012-07-22, 10:13 AM
The only male elves in the world are Protagonists, or Megalomaniac Archvillians.

Sir_Gabes
2012-07-22, 10:16 AM
If a group of people have shared several adventures together, never finding another friend they trust to join their group, and then two of them die, exactly two new friends they will trust completely will join them before their next adventure.

I'm not opposed or bothered by this. But, nor am I bothered by people distrusting new party members. Nothing is more painful than party members who can't work together. The game can come to a standstill because one player won't share character knowledge or something. But, I ultimately agree it is more realistic to role play in an untrusting way. Another annoying thing playing a sneaky or less than trustworthy character. Say... A spider clan goji assasin masquerading as a honorable Lion.
Acting check exceeded 50? Sorry all NPCs and PCs don't trust you for no apparent reason. It's irritating listening to player trying to justify their distrust. It's kinda silly, because sometimes my character will be a flawless liar and they magically distrust him. Despite having no clear idea of why.

Slipperychicken
2012-07-22, 10:27 AM
for example: People that play DnD are all virgins that can't get a girl (truth is the guy that taught me, his brother, me, two of my friend that I taught DnD to are all married.)

I don't conform to this one, myself. My current DM is constantly sneaking off to his bedroom with at least two players (not during a game, thankfully), and has probably kissed each female member of the group at least once. My first DM has had two girlfriends in the time I've known him.

Most players I know do fit that description, and to be fair to them, this is the archetypical "You will never get laid"-hobby. I think I've been spared that fate by my passion for music and alleged-physical-attractiveness, which serve to neutralize the nerd-ness and make me tolerable as a boyfriend.



If a group of people have shared several adventures together, never finding another friend they trust to join their group, and then two of them die, exactly two new friends they will trust completely will join them before their next adventure.

It sure as hell beats the alternative.

Dr.Epic
2012-07-22, 10:33 AM
I'm chaotic and/or evil so it's okay I can kill anyone I wish.

Water_Bear
2012-07-22, 10:35 AM
Acting check exceeded 50? Sorry all NPCs and PCs don't trust you for no apparent reason. It's irritating listening to player trying to justify their distrust. It's kinda silly, because sometimes my character will be a flawless liar and they magically distrust him. Despite having no clear idea of why.

Yeah, this is an issue. :smallannoyed:

As a DM I have a (silent) dice roller and everyone's Sense Motive modifiers so that no-one knows if they're being Bluffed until they succeed at a roll. As a Player... I hope that my other Players have a sense of fair play.

But NPCs magically detecting PC lies, despite failing their Sense Motive check? That's as awful as an entire party of bad role-players. And that's terrible.

Slipperychicken
2012-07-22, 10:50 AM
But NPCs magically detecting PC lies, despite failing their Sense Motive check? That's as awful as an entire party of bad role-players. And that's terrible.

More like just the DM being a bad roleplayer. Like when they automatically know every damn thing about your character without doing so much as a background check (or when they're clearly immature, impatient, and crazy enough that a background check would literally never occur to them).

Morph Bark
2012-07-22, 10:56 AM
On the Troll steryotypes.

In the oldest myths about them? They were powerful, cunning and ruthless mages, with enough brains and arcane power to make a dragon look like a lizard with wings.

They were the elder giants, primordial elemental beings, cast down and broken because they fought a long and bitter war with the gods themselves.... AND THE GODS COULDN'T FINISH 'EM OFF. And they've been nursing a grudge.

I hate how Trolls are dumbed down:smallmad:

That is highly dependant on the region. Trolls in myths vary as much as dragons do.

hamishspence
2012-07-22, 11:01 AM
That is highly dependant on the region. Trolls in myths vary as much as dragons do.

A point brought up in this OOTS strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-22, 11:11 AM
Because violence is part of the D&D universe, doing anything violent to evil beings is acceptable because they are evil.

If I hear ONE more of my players say that their NG or CG character is slicing off bits of a demon or devil with a cold iron or silver knife until it talks, I'm starting a freaking Ravenloft campaign.

MrLemon
2012-07-22, 11:27 AM
PCs are perfectly fine with killing sentient beings, as is everyone with the PCs killing sentient beings
or similarly
Wizards and Sorcerors always know destructive magic, even if they are college-taught.

This is especially strang in "cloistered" PCs, that didn't leave their mage academy or cloister or whatever till they started adventuring

The Glyphstone
2012-07-22, 11:43 AM
That one's excusable, unless the story has them joining the party involuntarily - if you're going adventuring, you would presumably do some basic precautions like learning a magical means of killing people who want to kill you first.

Sir_Gabes
2012-07-22, 11:47 AM
Because violence is part of the D&D universe, doing anything violent to evil beings is acceptable because they are evil.

If I hear ONE more of my players say that their NG or CG character is slicing off bits of a demon or devil with a cold iron or silver knife until it talks, I'm starting a freaking Ravenloft campaign.



Cool, make them evil, because that devil has clearly decided to possess a small innocent girl and is making sure she experiences all the pain of their tortures and will just dissipate back to the nine hells when their done.

Terraoblivion
2012-07-22, 12:08 PM
L5R setting anyone? How about Warhammer? (No one is really a good guy in warhammer)

I wouldn't exactly call Rokugan good. It's an oppressive country in constant civil war, ruled by a prickly warrior caste obsessed with protecting their pride and keeping the population poor and ignorant. Oh, and they're all racists and fanatically orthodox. Basically Rokugan is the 1940s stereotype of Japan, with religious fundamentalism added on top.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-22, 12:17 PM
Knights are always noble. ALWAYS.

Hear me out on this one.

Where are the Knights who lie, cheat at dice and insult people to their face, yet offers their opponent every chance in combat?

North_Ranger
2012-07-22, 12:49 PM
Knights are always noble. ALWAYS.

Hear me out on this one.

Where are the Knights who lie, cheat at dice and insult people to their face, yet offers their opponent every chance in combat?

History books?

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-22, 12:55 PM
Easist sterytype to fall into. Combat is the only way to solve a problem.

Antonok
2012-07-22, 01:24 PM
Easist sterytype to fall into. Combat is the only way to solve a problem.

Well theres always drinking contests.... (which always leads into a bar fight)

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-22, 01:59 PM
History books?

I'm well aware that this was historicaly accurate, but in DnD? Not so much.

DontEatRawHagis
2012-07-22, 03:21 PM
Fighters are either Knights or Mercenaries.

Paladins are always Noble and never evil. Otherwise, they are Blackguard or whatever.

Druids are always eco terrorists.

Bards always have Lutes.

Dwarves are always stocky.

Humans are always in between five feet and 6'2".

Gnomes are always tricksters/comedians.

There are either Inns or Taverns. No Pubs, Bars, Bed and Breakfasts, Hotels, or Motels.

Health Potions can be drunk as much as you want, without filling you up.

Ghosts are never friendly.

Zombies are always created by magical means, never by a mutated strain of Rabies.

Cannibals always eat every other race but their own

Magic wands are the equivellent of guns with magic instead of bullets. Hence they can run out of magic same way a gun runs out of bullets.

The only people who worship gods are Clerics and Paladins or any other divine class. There is never a general mass.

Temples are rarely actually used for prayer, instead they are warehouses of artifacts riddled with traps. Because congregations are never expected to meet inside the temple.

AgentofHellfire
2012-07-22, 03:36 PM
What do you think "adventuring" is? Back in the days of primogeniture, it was standard procedure for the non-eldest sons to join a mercenary company to try to make their own fortunes because big brother gets to inherit everything. If there had been dragon hoards in the real world in the middle ages, those guys would have been all over it.

Workable though it is, you can't deny that the version of "noble adventurers" you speak of here is different than the one he's talking about. The runaways.




Conan was a wise man of the wild. "Smarter and tougher because he's not weakened by civilization" is his core character trait.Rising to the top through cunning and ruthlessness is the basic plot of half the Conan stories. He even became king of a country by working his way up the ranks of their military as a mercenary and then staging a coup.

Fine, fine. Replace "Conan" with "berserker" and we're right.

Hyena
2012-07-22, 03:42 PM
Paladins are always Noble and never evil..

You know, that's kinda the point of paladins.

endoperez
2012-07-22, 03:54 PM
PCs who have no problem with looting countless tombs, sarcophagi, catacombs, and generally stripping every corpse they encounter... but cannot stand the thought of looting a fallen comrade and start spouting hypocritical bull**** like: "You need to respect the dead!", "What would he think of your behavior now?", or "We're not theives! We're better than that!"

And they might even do this while robbing someone's tomb.

Wait, wait. This gives me an idea.

Imagine the party giving a solem burial for their friend, and then, several levels later, having a go at yet another necromantic infestation. Pretty run-of-the-mill, except when they start gathering up the loot they get the stuff their friend was buried with.

Alternatively, items of previous characters from previous campaigns.

DontEatRawHagis
2012-07-22, 04:25 PM
You know, that's kinda the point of paladins.

Yes, but its kind of stupid considering that Paladins should have different morals compared to other paladins and nobles. They're kind of like Vigilantes that mess with law and order of a city, just because it doesn't fit their world view.

I had a couple Paladins killing off the clergy of other churches in order to gain more favor with their God. Makes sense.

Gulaghar
2012-07-22, 04:37 PM
That's what happens when you have the benefit of superior nutrition and living conditions for your entire life starting even before birth.

I think you're forgetting all the inbreeding. :smalltongue:

UncleWolf
2012-07-22, 04:42 PM
Cannibals always eat every other race but their own


Technically, they aren't cannibals if they don't eat their own. They're just connoisseurs of exotic cuisine. :smalltongue:

Hyena
2012-07-22, 04:43 PM
I had a couple Paladins killing off the clergy of other churches in order to gain more favor with their God. Makes sense.

Uh, you do still remember that your character is supposed to be champion of god and fighter for justice? It's right here, in the class description.

Infernalbargain
2012-07-22, 05:30 PM
You never meet an elf child. Ever.
This is really kinda odd because they're kids for like a century.

Dragons are color-coded for your convenience.
DM: "The black dragons are breathing fire upon the town."
Player: "Black dragons have acid breath weapons, not fire."
DM: "Roll reflex."

Only the players consider the impact of high level magic on the construction of buildings and cities.

Antonok
2012-07-22, 06:01 PM
You never meet an elf child. Ever.
This is really kinda odd because they're kids for like a century.

This made me think of one:

You never meet old Paladins.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-22, 06:05 PM
This made me think of one:

You never meet old Paladins.

Not that odd to me. How often do you expect Paladins to live to be old?

Morithias
2012-07-22, 06:09 PM
Not that odd to me. How often do you expect Paladins to live to be old?

Paladins are like henchmen, except good aligned. They fight for causes they believe in for little pay except for a pat on the back, and often die without a chance for another life, and in the end 90% of the people you meet will just remember you as that guy with the funny accent.

QuidEst
2012-07-22, 08:04 PM
You never meet an elf child. Ever.
This is really kinda odd because they're kids for like a century.

My theory is that elf children are universally bratty and stupid. Their parents keep them hidden away to avoid bringing shame to their family.

navar100
2012-07-22, 08:22 PM
The nobles of the country disdain the peasants.

If a PC is Lawful Good, the class is a divine class or a monk. Lawful good wizard? Rogue? Psion? Fighter? Warblade? Pshaw!

Someone posts a generalization stereotype for a fun joke thread, someone else responds with a counterexample. :smalltongue:

A player will quote Monty Python or joke about attacking the darkness, depending on generation.

There once was a Great Empire that covered all the land. After the Emperor died, his heir was not accepted. There was civil war. When it ended we have the nations of today. Really, this predates Eberron!

When the game edition changes, a magic god and Good god dies, an Evil god once thought dead returns, and a well known Evil entity gains more power, to godhood and beyond.

Fatebreaker
2012-07-22, 08:30 PM
A player will quote Monty Python or joke about attacking the darkness, depending on generation.

Some of us have Monty Python characters joke about attacking the darkness.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-07-22, 08:38 PM
Cannibals always eat every other race but their own

Actually, depending on how you define "race" this is more-or-less accurate. Real-life cannibalistic cultures only kill and eat members of rival groups.

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-22, 08:42 PM
About theres never any Female monsters/old paladins... My PnP group has been preached at by a Female Troll Paladin thats over 3000. It was funny as heck.

RebelRogue
2012-07-22, 08:44 PM
After all we've all heard of werewolves but when have we ever had trouble with werehumans?:smallbiggrin:
Having played quite a bit of W:tA, yes, I've had my share of trouble with Red Talons :smalltongue:

(But that's not D&D of course)

MurphysLaw159
2012-07-22, 08:46 PM
There's a reason for this one, if another party is equal or more effective, why is it your party is the one to save the world? It would be best to hire them both, and since they probably have the same leads, they'll be joining you. All of a sudden, you have a DMPC party joining the regular one. Watch them be awesome!

When it comes to saving the world/ high level play then yes, the PC party should be in the spot light and the go to guys. But when your a bunch of level ones or twos then were are the rival parties? The ones that solve the problems that you have no time for? Thats what I was thinking about :smallsmile:

Cerlis
2012-07-22, 08:58 PM
I'm well aware that this was historicaly accurate, but in DnD? Not so much.

well , i mean, considering that in fantasy Knights are the equivalent of superheroes....

fantasy knights are based off the tales of king arthur's court, not history.


History isnt fun, or else we'd go all "Oh, look at history, isnt the human race awesome?"

No we tell stories of non humans, and if we talk about humans its either improperly noble ones , or how the other races are better.

The Random NPC
2012-07-22, 09:27 PM
When it comes to saving the world/ high level play then yes, the PC party should be in the spot light and the go to guys. But when your a bunch of level ones or twos then were are the rival parties? The ones that solve the problems that you have no time for? Thats what I was thinking about :smallsmile:

I understand where you're coming from, but even at the low levels, the other parties are either elsewhere, or otherwise not taking your job. Maybe the DM should have a few quest-givers that say someone else has already started/completed that quest, but that doesn't really add much to the game.

Erik Vale
2012-07-22, 10:51 PM
Wait, wait. This gives me an idea.

Imagine the party giving a solem burial for their friend, and then, several levels later, having a go at yet another necromantic infestation. Pretty run-of-the-mill, except when they start gathering up the loot they get the stuff their friend was buried with.

Alternatively, items of previous characters from previous campaigns.

Stolen. And when one of us does that, that is going in the creepy list.



About theres never any Female monsters/old paladins... My PnP group has been preached at by a Female Troll Paladin thats over 3000. It was funny as heck.

That's funny.

navar100
2012-07-22, 11:34 PM
Half-elves and Half-orcs always relate to their non-human heritage. It's always their non-human bloodline that matters. They are involved with their non-human racial politics and culture. Their human ancestry is irrelevant and ignored.

GenericGuy
2012-07-23, 12:17 AM
Half-elves and Half-orcs always relate to their non-human heritage. It's always their non-human bloodline that matters. They are involved with their non-human racial politics and culture. Their human ancestry is irrelevant and ignored.

That irritates me too.

I remember once I created a NPC who hated his half elven nature, and almost worshiped his human half (considering any city, country, artifact, etc. of human make a grand symbol of his noble heritage). He grew up around elves, so humans were the exotic other who is father was part of. One of the players said the character inspired him to create a simmilar character when he was DM...who would always praise his elven nature and detested his human:smallannoyed:. The player didn't do it as a take that to me, he honestly thought it was more original:smallconfused:.

Benson
2012-07-23, 12:48 AM
I like this thread.

Mmm, I get annoyed when PCs assume that all barmaids are nothing more than fleshbags to hit on every time they come across one who live only to be sexed up by the PC. I myself am guilty of this, mostly to see if the DM will bend and indulge in my silliness, though I never had my PCs go past simple flirting.

WarKitty
2012-07-23, 01:15 AM
Generally, the fact that humans will be the clearly dominant race, despite having no obvious advantages that would make them so.

Mystic Muse
2012-07-23, 01:29 AM
Paladins are always Noble and never evil. Otherwise, they are Blackguard or whatever.

At least by 3.5 D&D (And a few earlier versions) That's because that is in the rules. A Paladin who ever willingly commits any evil act loses all their powers by the D&D 3.5 rules.

Morithias
2012-07-23, 02:55 AM
Generally, the fact that humans will be the clearly dominant race, despite having no obvious advantages that would make them so.

You don't spend a ton of time around the min/max boards do you? With the exception of Pun-Pun, most of the most powerful builds are human in nature.

Manly Man
2012-07-23, 03:28 AM
If someone is kidnapped, it's a woman, never man.

I actually had a rescue scene done where the players thought they were rescuing a princess, but it turned out to be an androgynous man. Awkward times for the barbarian who openly crushed on him.

Sir_Gabes
2012-07-23, 03:42 AM
Dungeons and Dragons is inherently stereotypical, without fail. But, if it ain't broke don't fix it and if it is, use a different system/setting.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-23, 03:47 AM
Because violence is part of the D&D universe, doing anything violent to evil beings is acceptable because they are evil.

If I hear ONE more of my players say that their NG or CG character is slicing off bits of a demon or devil with a cold iron or silver knife until it talks, I'm starting a freaking Ravenloft campaign.

Agreed. I'm okay with autokilling fiends, but torture is an absolute no-go, for good characters, at my table. "I don't care that it was a demon. You're now an EX- cleric of Ilmater."


I wouldn't exactly call Rokugan good. It's an oppressive country in constant civil war, ruled by a prickly warrior caste obsessed with protecting their pride and keeping the population poor and ignorant. Oh, and they're all racists and fanatically orthodox. Basically Rokugan is the 1940s stereotype of Japan, with religious fundamentalism added on top.

Imo, that's an awfully negative spin on a culture that puts loyalty ahead of everything; up to and including their very lives. Three of the other pilliars of bushido are compassion, honesty, and courtesy. The problem isn't so much that they're not good, just a bit too lawful. Also, it's hard to fault a people for their religious views when prayers are tangibly answered, though that's true of most D&D settings.

on topic:

Lawful=good Chaotic=evil.

Law and Chaos are not good or evil. Either is simply how good or evil is expressed.

Also, character behavior defines alignment. Alignment does not define character behavior, dammit. :smallfurious:

Sir_Gabes
2012-07-23, 04:27 AM
Besides at the end of the day, there is a big land of marauding monsters next door, the shadow dragon, maho tskai and gaijin countries trying to invade. Rokugan is constantly threatened and their people understand what needs to be done. Besides idiot daimyo's have always fallen when peasants get too unhappy and Rokugan noble's aren't incapable of compassion. In fact compassionate people in Rokugan are admired most. Unless their scorpion... But, scorpion also realise that peasants can become unruly when treated like dirt. Eta are really the only members of Rokugan society that are truly mistreated. There are also double standards for nobility. But, not every culture is perfect. Even western kingdoms have those exact problems.

Dungeons and Dragons is too idealistic. The game doesn't encourage shades of grey. (in regards to alignment) That doesn't make it bad. It's just the default alignment rules doesn't encourage room for interpretation. I can't play the lawful good palladin who makes hard choices on the field of battle. Because, that would change my alignment.

Dungeons and Dragons is like a good old superman movie. Really camp and really easy to watch.

Warhammer is like a dark and gritty batman movie. Do good guys exist? Yeah, sure. But, the setting forces good guys to be something more than just a good guy.

Those are the two best examples I can think of. Though, I imagine deadpool would be closer to warhammer than batman.

dungeons and dragons can definitely be used in a dark and gritty way. The default setting doesn't do a great job at emphasizing it.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-23, 04:59 AM
@ sir_gabes: I have to disagree with you about D&D's alignment system not allowing for shades of gray. If that were true I doubt we'd have the nearly endless debates we do. To prevent a derailment of this thread, however, I'll leave it at that, and point to the thread paladin & rogue in the same party, which is rapidly becoming just such a debate.

Ulysses WkAmil
2012-07-23, 06:05 AM
The Theives Guild, despite working exactly like 1930's organized crime, is considered a Coalition of Theives, and never just a Mafia or Mob.

All Necromancers just want undead to take over the world or for some weird Semi-Necrophiliac compassion.

Jay R
2012-07-23, 06:25 AM
There once was a Great Empire that covered all the land. After the Emperor died, his heir was not accepted. There was civil war. When it ended we have the nations of today. Really, this predates Eberron!

It dates at least as far back as Charlemagne, and arguably to the Roman Empire or even Alexander the Great.


Half-elves and Half-orcs always relate to their non-human heritage. It's always their non-human bloodline that matters. They are involved with their non-human racial politics and culture. Their human ancestry is irrelevant and ignored.

Half-Vulcans, too.


There are either Inns or Taverns. No Pubs, Bars, Bed and Breakfasts, Hotels, or Motels.

Of course. It's a medieval society. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word "inn": was used in that sense by 1400, and the word "tavern" by 1286. By contrast:
Pub (short for public house): 1865
Bar (in a closely related sense): 1592.
Hotel (in that sense): 1765
The word "motel", being a shortening of "motor hotel", came in after the automobile.

WarKitty
2012-07-23, 07:31 AM
You don't spend a ton of time around the min/max boards do you? With the exception of Pun-Pun, most of the most powerful builds are human in nature.

Yes I do, but 99.99% of humans are still commoners. The tiny fraction that become super-powerful adventurers is hardly going to justify 3/4 of the worlds population and kingdoms being human.

Megasaber4000
2012-07-23, 08:14 AM
Dwarfs are builders of every thing.
evil characters are soulless blood thirsty killers.
every Bard is a jester
wizards always wear long robe.

Fatebreaker
2012-07-23, 08:41 AM
I wouldn't exactly call Rokugan good. It's an oppressive country in constant civil war, ruled by a prickly warrior caste obsessed with protecting their pride and keeping the population poor and ignorant. Oh, and they're all racists and fanatically orthodox. Basically Rokugan is the 1940s stereotype of Japan, with religious fundamentalism added on top.

Annoying stereotype: It doesn't matter how many medieval trappings you throw on your setting, your players will still expect that modern, "enlightened" values will be, well, valued!


Generally, the fact that humans will be the clearly dominant race, despite having no obvious advantages that would make them so.


You don't spend a ton of time around the min/max boards do you? With the exception of Pun-Pun, most of the most powerful builds are human in nature.


Yes I do, but 99.99% of humans are still commoners. The tiny fraction that become super-powerful adventurers is hardly going to justify 3/4 of the worlds population and kingdoms being human.

Our commoners are better than their commoners!

Seriously, whatever task the other guy tries to do, there's a human who does it better, or at least equally well plus something else. A bonus feat and a bonus skill point is nothing to sneer at.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-23, 08:57 AM
Maybe everyone (And this includes Humans) should get a bonus feat, but drawn from a particular list.

Humans would get a skill related feat, Dwarves a combat based one, Elves get magic, etc.

WarKitty
2012-07-23, 09:08 AM
Related: worlds that tailor everything to the most "powerful" option, whether or not it makes sense.

Eldan
2012-07-23, 09:13 AM
Maybe everyone (And this includes Humans) should get a bonus feat, but drawn from a particular list.

Humans would get a skill related feat, Dwarves a combat based one, Elves get magic, etc.

The problem with that is that suddenly, Humans would be by far the weakest.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-23, 09:14 AM
What sort of list would you suggest?

Synovia
2012-07-23, 09:16 AM
Uh, you do still remember that your character is supposed to be champion of god and fighter for justice? It's right here, in the class description.

Justice is defined by whatever god you follow. Killing the clergy of another religion could be justice. They worship the [terrible evil] other god.

jackattack
2012-07-23, 09:25 AM
Any personality trait will be played to ridiculous extremes.

An impulsive character will jump off a cliff because he's impulsive. A greedy character will try to take the crown off the king's head because he's greedy. A randy character will jump into bed with a succubus (did that. :small cool: ) or a troll (didn't do that) because he's randy. A gullible character will believe anything he's told because he's gullible.

Ranting Fool
2012-07-23, 09:37 AM
All characters and NPC's that have an evil alignment are automatically up for a bit of murder.

It's the "He/she/it has an evil alignment so will try and murder us the moment we turn our backs" thing that bugs me. There are a whole host of actions and personal beliefs that could be/are just downright evil.

DontEatRawHagis
2012-07-23, 10:18 AM
Actually, depending on how you define "race" this is more-or-less accurate. Real-life cannibalistic cultures only kill and eat members of rival groups.

Not all of them.

I don't know the percentage but a some cannibals eat their dead ritualistically.

Terraoblivion
2012-07-23, 10:58 AM
Imo, that's an awfully negative spin on a culture that puts loyalty ahead of everything; up to and including their very lives. Three of the other pilliars of bushido are compassion, honesty, and courtesy. The problem isn't so much that they're not good, just a bit too lawful. Also, it's hard to fault a people for their religious views when prayers are tangibly answered, though that's true of most D&D settings.

Maybe, but it's the view hammered home by a large part of the fandom. I've had GMs from both the official winter courts, as well as at least two of the freelancers doing writing for both third and fourth edition defend this view of the setting quite strongly.

Also, a lot of the things are indisputably there. The Otomo really do make sure that the clans are constantly fighting each other so they won't get any ideas about changing the status quo. The Matsu really do ask kids who fail gempukku to commit seppuku. It really is legal to kill heimin if you feel they were rude to you and given that it is a capital crime to associate with foreigners, the racism is rather well entrenched too. Also, the books are pretty open about loyalty and honor tending to override the other tenets of bushido.

And Fatebreak, my comments here are basically about someone calling it good. Honorable, sure, but good? I dare you to find a value system operating with the terms good and evil that would call Rokugan good. Also, for that matter, those stereotypes are quite modern and have little relationship with any medieval'ish society, being based on Meiji, Taisho and Showa-era ideals and foreign stereotypes of Japan that were created during those periods.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-07-23, 11:19 AM
Not all of them.

I don't know the percentage but a some cannibals eat their dead ritualistically.

Hence the qualification "kill and eat." Cultures where "Hey, let's kill and eat grandma for dinner!" is normal only exist in fiction.


Maybe everyone (And this includes Humans) should get a bonus feat, but drawn from a particular list.

Humans would get a skill related feat, Dwarves a combat based one, Elves get magic, etc.

Incidentally, this is exactly how Legend works. (Though the feat lists are different.)

HeadlessMermaid
2012-07-23, 11:24 AM
D&D stereotypes of social classes and occupations are a bloody mess.

PCs form a bizarre social class//occupation called "adventurers". They are uniquely defined by what they do. Birth and actual social class are irrelevant, and never come into play. Which is odd, because a caste system is established right there in the core rules: NPCs are defined solely by social class.

However, this practically applies only to human NPCs, who also have the benefit of distinct cultures around the world. Other humanoid NPCs are defined by race, and each race presupposes a social class, or at least excludes some rather important ones. In humanoid societies, no orc is a legitimate lord, no elf sweeps the floor for a living, no goblin is a merchant. Gnomes are ALL merchants, and much like the Ironborn, They Do Not Sow (apparently, they eat their own contraptions to sustain themselves when the market is slow).

In fact, the "We Do Not Sow" motto applies to all the "often/usually Eeeevil" races out there. Which is also odd, because the Ironborn can at least fish when raiding isn't practical, whereas orcs and goblins seem utterly incapable to produce food on their own, lacking both farmers and fishermen.

As for the dwarves, who are all experts or warriors and live deep within the mountains where the sun don't shine, nobody knows what the heck they eat, and how exactly they cultivate the barley they need for their damn beer. Maybe they raid human villages? :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2012-07-23, 11:26 AM
As for the dwarves, who are all experts or warriors and live deep within the mountains where the sun don't shine, nobody knows what the heck they eat, and how exactly they cultivate the barley they need for their damn beer. Maybe they raid human villages? :smalltongue:

Mushrooms, for both answers.:smallbiggrin:

toapat
2012-07-23, 11:28 AM
As for the dwarves, who are all experts or warriors and live deep within the mountains where the sun don't shine, nobody knows what the heck they eat, and how exactly they cultivate the barley they need for their damn beer. Maybe they raid human villages? :smalltongue:

Hill Dwarves do have farmers, you dont recognize them because they wear full plate and till the fields with tower shields.

HeadlessMermaid
2012-07-23, 11:35 AM
Mushrooms, for both answers.
Mushroom beer. Heh.
That could be, umm... enlightening and mind-opening. :smalltongue:

@toapat: Meh, everyone knows that Hill Dwarves aren't REAL dwarves. :smalltongue:

Fiery Diamond
2012-07-23, 11:40 AM
Justice is defined by whatever god you follow. Killing the clergy of another religion could be justice. They worship the [terrible evil] other god.

1) Paladins do not need to worship a god. I even believe this was ranted about earlier in the thread.

2) In D&D, Good and Evil are objective, not subjective. Justice refers to wrongdoing receiving legitimate and appropriate punishment. From there, it's simply a matter of variation in the extremes a particular Paladin sees as "appropriate" for whatever crimes.

Which does mean you could potentially have Paladins end up fighting each other because one is heavy on the "mercy" part of Good while the other is heavy on the "laying the lethal smackdown on the evil dudes" part of justice, and they can't (for whatever reason) convince the other nonviolently to step down and back off with regard to how a certain person/group should be dealt with. So you're not COMPLETELY wrong.

toapat
2012-07-23, 11:45 AM
@toapat: Meh, everyone knows that Hill Dwarves aren't REAL dwarves. :smalltongue:

that ignores the fact that PHB dwarves are the hill Dwarves.

also: Dwarves wear fullplate and towershields as everyday clothes, armor, dress clothes, and while casting arcane spells.

Kurald Galain
2012-07-23, 11:51 AM
Yes I do, but 99.99% of humans are still commoners.
That is certainly not a given in every edition or every campaign setting.

Synovia
2012-07-23, 12:05 PM
1) Paladins do not need to worship a god. I even believe this was ranted about earlier in the thread.

2) In D&D, Good and Evil are objective, not subjective. Justice refers to wrongdoing receiving legitimate and appropriate punishment. From there, it's simply a matter of variation in the extremes a particular Paladin sees as "appropriate" for whatever crimes.

Which does mean you could potentially have Paladins end up fighting each other because one is heavy on the "mercy" part of Good while the other is heavy on the "laying the lethal smackdown on the evil dudes" part of justice, and they can't (for whatever reason) convince the other nonviolently to step down and back off with regard to how a certain person/group should be dealt with. So you're not COMPLETELY wrong.

I'm not "COMPLETELY" wrong because you pretty much agreed with everything I said.

As to "god," I meant it not as a literal, but as in the sense of "path of worship". or "Path of belief". Religion may have been a better word.

Fatebreaker
2012-07-23, 12:07 PM
And Fatebreak, my comments here are basically about someone calling it good. Honorable, sure, but good? I dare you to find a value system operating with the terms good and evil that would call Rokugan good.

The Rokugani value system would, I imagine, classify their own society as "good."

Any value system which values some combination of family, honor, duty, loyalty, sacrifice, humility, hierarchy, etiquette, stability, cunning, bravery, and tradition will find something of value in the Rokugani system.

Value systems which elevate equality and tolerance will find... less of value.

It all depends on what is most important to you.


Also, for that matter, those stereotypes are quite modern and have little relationship with any medieval'ish society, being based on Meiji, Taisho and Showa-era ideals and foreign stereotypes of Japan that were created during those periods.


"It should be noted that L5R is not about playing a real-world samurai, but rather about the romanticized vision of samurai found in stories and film."


"Players and GMs are creating the mythical and legendary tales of samurai who excel in their station."


"So if you don't know all the details of how samurai addressed each other, if you don't remember the myriad subtle difference between the Heian, Kamakura, Muromachi, Nara, Edo, Toyotomi, and Tokugawa eras of historical Japan -- don't sweat it too much! Rokugan is ultimately a fantasy world, a fusion of Asian culture from many eras and many peoples."

The game is pretty clear about being a game about stylized, not historical, samurai.

That said, it does have all sorts of nifty little sidebars and subsections describing variants for increasing or decreasing the realism. But those are options for the folks who want that sort of thing. The game isn't setting out to recreate the Sengoku Jidai. So who cares if it's historically accurate or not? It's not trying to be. It's just trying to create an interesting setting for players and GMs to tell interesting stories in. And it certainly does that!

Pyromancer999
2012-07-23, 12:13 PM
Generally, the fact that humans will be the clearly dominant race, despite having no obvious advantages that would make them so.

Honestly, I think it's most likely a combination of humans breeding like rabbits(when compared to other races) and not enough people really noticing them until it was too late to take care of them without it being a hassle.

Also, what's up with dragons mating with everything? Given all the half-dragons of all types running around(human, elf, troll, crocodile), it's sort of a surprisethat every single creature in D&D isn't descended from a dragon.

toapat
2012-07-23, 12:18 PM
Also, what's up with dragons mating with everything? Given all the half-dragons of all types running around(human, elf, troll, crocodile), it's sort of a surprisethat every single creature in D&D isn't descended from a dragon.

they are, its just that its so watered down we only get sorcerers

Cerlis
2012-07-23, 12:46 PM
Mushroom beer. Heh.
That could be, umm... enlightening and mind-opening. :smalltongue:

@toapat: Meh, everyone knows that Hill Dwarves aren't REAL dwarves. :smalltongue:

Indeed, its suggested that that is why Dwarven beer is so strong/pungent, since its made from mushrooms.

In Dragonlance i believe Raistlin narrowly keeps his party from eating the original mushrooms, which are deadly unless brewed

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-23, 12:51 PM
Maybe, but it's the view hammered home by a large part of the fandom. I've had GMs from both the official winter courts, as well as at least two of the freelancers doing writing for both third and fourth edition defend this view of the setting quite strongly.

Also, a lot of the things are indisputably there. The Otomo really do make sure that the clans are constantly fighting each other so they won't get any ideas about changing the status quo. The Matsu really do ask kids who fail gempukku to commit seppuku. It really is legal to kill heimin if you feel they were rude to you and given that it is a capital crime to associate with foreigners, the racism is rather well entrenched too. Also, the books are pretty open about loyalty and honor tending to override the other tenets of bushido.

And Fatebreak, my comments here are basically about someone calling it good. Honorable, sure, but good? I dare you to find a value system operating with the terms good and evil that would call Rokugan good. Also, for that matter, those stereotypes are quite modern and have little relationship with any medieval'ish society, being based on Meiji, Taisho and Showa-era ideals and foreign stereotypes of Japan that were created during those periods.

I never said that you were wrong, just that the way you phrased it sheds the worst possible light on the culture. Rokugani peasants aren't any more ignorant or oppressed than the peasants of any other fantasy kingdom, and in any but scorpion lands the samurai aren't that abusive. A little pushy certainly, but I doubt seriously that most samurai would decapitate every peasant that made a social misstep. Besides, the peasants on the whole believe that the samurai are descended from the setting's gods and I imagine they fear change as much as any humans. Also, if I was a monarch of a nation surrounded by hostile people on all sides, I'd be more than a little leary of foreigners too. Finally, rokugani law is mostly self-enforced, and not upheld all that strongly except in important cases. The rokugani culture, imo, holds to LG reasonably well. They just hold way tighter to the L than the G.

WarKitty
2012-07-23, 12:54 PM
Honestly, I think it's most likely a combination of humans breeding like rabbits(when compared to other races) and not enough people really noticing them until it was too late to take care of them without it being a hassle.

Also, what's up with dragons mating with everything? Given all the half-dragons of all types running around(human, elf, troll, crocodile), it's sort of a surprisethat every single creature in D&D isn't descended from a dragon.

Humans mating with everything. That one bothers me too. We should see more hybrids that don't include human or dragon, if it's really that easy.

Terraoblivion
2012-07-23, 12:56 PM
The Rokugani value system would, I imagine, classify their own society as "good."

Any value system which values some combination of family, honor, duty, loyalty, sacrifice, humility, hierarchy, etiquette, stability, cunning, bravery, and tradition will find something of value in the Rokugani system.

Value systems which elevate equality and tolerance will find... less of value.

It all depends on what is most important to you.

Which is why I said value systems that care about good and evil. Looking at human value systems there is a pretty clear divide between honor-based ones and ones caring about morality, frequently existing in an uncomfortable balance with each other. Vikings would find Rokugan pretty reasonable, while medieval theologians would find it abominable in its brutality, for example. Or replace the Christians with Buddhists for something more culturally similar.


The game is pretty clear about being a game about stylized, not historical, samurai.

That said, it does have all sorts of nifty little sidebars and subsections describing variants for increasing or decreasing the realism. But those are options for the folks who want that sort of thing. The game isn't setting out to recreate the Sengoku Jidai. So who cares if it's historically accurate or not? It's not trying to be. It's just trying to create an interesting setting for players and GMs to tell interesting stories in. And it certainly does that!

You were the one to bring up history, not me. I was just pointing out that the setting isn't based on anything remotely medieval like you claimed. Because it really isn't. It's predominantly based on American readings of early 20th century propaganda, whether Japanese or American.

For that matter, I believe I never said it was a bad setting because Rokugan was amoral. That was other people projecting on me. I have problems with the setting, but the lack of morality isn't one of them. They relate more to how mind breaking the medieval stasis is and how much some writers like to reinforce the most racist aspects of the setting.

EDIT: And you guys do know that in all the history of Rokugan there were only three major foreign invasions and two of them are late in the official timeline, long after the attitude was added to the setting.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-07-23, 01:11 PM
Generally, the fact that humans will be the clearly dominant race, despite having no obvious advantages that would make them so.
...Have you SEEN the 3.5 humans? Combine that with the fact they can breed pretty fast... if there's a near-wipeout of the human race, and only a couple hundred survived, in a mere forty years the number of adults could be hugely increased!


Yes I do, but 99.99% of humans are still commoners. The tiny fraction that become super-powerful adventurers is hardly going to justify 3/4 of the worlds population and kingdoms being human.

Where are you getting those numbers? I seem to recall one in every hundred people in a settlement is a Warrior, not one in every thousand.

Besides, humans, with their bonus feat and skill points, are the easiest race to optimize with at low-levels, meaning a well-prepared village of a couple hundred people with only a couple Warriors could easily take down orc raiders by using crossbows, javelins, and incarnum. Sure, Mr. Level 1 Orc Warrior can have Power Attack and a greataxe, but can he take half a dozen light crossbow bolts and javelins at +0 or +1 attack bonus every round? Hell, even the most unoptimized, dirt-poor commoner can pick up a club and throw it twenty feet at a -2 attack bonus.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-23, 01:57 PM
Not so much a stereotype as just something that bugs me: The party must always win every fight.

No. At least one Pc must survive every fight to avoid ending the campaign prematurely, and it doesn't even need to be the same one each time. Victory and survival are not the same thing. (usually)

Lord_Gareth
2012-07-23, 02:04 PM
Not so much a stereotype as just something that bugs me: The party must always win every fight.

No. At least one Pc must survive every fight to avoid ending the campaign prematurely, and it doesn't even need to be the same one each time. Victory and survival are not the same thing. (usually)

Nah. If everyone dies, make a new party sent in to discover what the hell happened to the old.

Then make the answer, "The villain found the bodies and turned them all into undead slaves."

Craft (Cheese)
2012-07-23, 02:10 PM
The answer is obviously "The old party is still alive, and they're the new villains of the campaign. Also, they've gained all sorts of cool superpowers I wouldn't let you have while YOU were in control of them."

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-23, 02:12 PM
Nah. If everyone dies, make a new party sent in to discover what the hell happened to the old.

Then make the answer, "The villain found the bodies and turned them all into undead slaves."

That can work with a campaign of suitable scope, but in a more mercenary, murder-hobo type campaign that doesn't really work, though it is notably less problematic. Unless of course, I'm in the middle of the process of increasing the campaign's scope from, "We're wandering grave robbers," to, "We've got to stop the villain's nefarious scheme."

Morithias
2012-07-23, 02:20 PM
Yes I do, but 99.99% of humans are still commoners. The tiny fraction that become super-powerful adventurers is hardly going to justify 3/4 of the worlds population and kingdoms being human.

One can make the same argument for all the other races though.

Rake21
2012-07-23, 02:32 PM
Anyone who drags the story in the direction of their dark, troubled past and won't let it go on, constantly being broody and jerk-ish.

My God, even Batman cracks a joke once and a while, and let's the Justice League do it's own thing (i.e. punching Darkseid into the Sun). He doesn't force them to chase down Joe Chill every week.

toapat
2012-07-23, 02:44 PM
He doesn't force them to chase down Joe Chill every week.

thats because Batman knows where Joe Chill is at all times, so that batman may swoop in for his weekly mugging.

but thats batman

Arbane
2012-07-23, 03:14 PM
Annoying stereotype: It doesn't matter how many medieval trappings you throw on your setting, your players will still expect that modern, "enlightened" values will be, well, valued!

It probably helps that magic power isn't gender-specific. It's a lot harder to make someone stay in the kitchen when they can burn you alive with a few words.

As for racism, in the words of Terry Pratchett: "Black and White lived in harmony and ganged up on Green."



It dates at least as far back as Charlemagne, and arguably to the Roman Empire or even Alexander the Great.


And before that, the Persians, and before that, the Babylonians, and before THAT, the Assyrians.... pining for the Good Old Days seems to be a universal human trait.

New one: People who live underground tend to be 'evil' versions of their surface equivalents.

AgentofHellfire
2012-07-23, 05:36 PM
Anyone who drags the story in the direction of their dark, troubled past and won't let it go on, constantly being broody and jerk-ish.

My God, even Batman cracks a joke once and a while, and let's the Justice League do it's own thing (i.e. punching Darkseid into the Sun). He doesn't force them to chase down Joe Chill every week.


In (some of their) defenses, there are some games in which it's ridiculously hard to get a single word of character development in, so they just try to sandwich all of the buildup to darkness into the moments where CD exists.

Ranting Fool
2012-07-23, 05:41 PM
New one: People who live underground tend to be 'evil' versions of their surface equivalents.

lol yes. So very true :smallbiggrin:

Every Innkeeper/passing traveler has some minor task for you to do for a few gold.

"I would cross the room to pick up my book of X" says the aged wizard "but I'd rather just pay you 2gp and give you a bit of XP for doing it for me" :smallconfused::smalltongue:

toapat
2012-07-23, 05:50 PM
Every Innkeeper/passing traveler has some minor task for you to do for a few gold.

and to extend that:

Innkeeper means Retired Adventurer

Medic!
2012-07-23, 06:24 PM
Low charisma automatically means you are ugly and smelly, while a high charisma automatically means (and this goes triple for bards) that you are the gods' gift to women.


This DID lead to a hillarious and awkward situation for a bard at my table once who rolled just a hair too high on his diplomacy check vs. an awakened (female, hahaha knowledge nature fumble) ape with a grapple score that was preposterously higher than his. For the record the only DM Fiat involved was the genderization of said ape

Fiery Diamond
2012-07-23, 06:27 PM
I'm not "COMPLETELY" wrong because you pretty much agreed with everything I said.

As to "god," I meant it not as a literal, but as in the sense of "path of worship". or "Path of belief". Religion may have been a better word.

Er... what? *Looks back at various posts.* I had a long thing typed out before I looked back and realized that you weren't the originator of the whole discussion about Paladins. When I replied to you with my post, I hadn't paid any attention and had simply assumed you were the same person. My bad.

However: Then using god was an extremely poor word choice. Furthermore, religion is still too specific. There is no requirement in D&D for Paladins to be religious, ascetic, or anything else associated with gods or religion. A guy who follows a certain code of ethics that matches up with the ill-defined Paladin Code who is virtuous, altruistic, and chivalrous (and "Lawful Good," assuming one doesn't count that as being self-evident if the person adheres to the code and is virtuous and altruistic) can be a Paladin. The code of ethics and the general goodness are all that's required RP-wise, and mechanics-wise all that's needed is the Lawful Good alignment.

To quote the PHB on Paladins and religion: "A paladin need not devote herself to a single deity -- devotion to righteousness is enough." Worship not needed, just devotion to righteousness. Which is an objective thing; a multifaceted thing which different Paladins may focus on different facets of, to be sure, but in a world where Good and Evil are objective, so is righteousness.

In other words, I still didn't completely agree with you: the particulars of what one Paladin considers to be appropriate justice may differ from another, but it isn't derived from some god or religion (necessarily, at any rate). And I also made the mistake of thinking you were the same guy who opened up the conversation that I'm quoting below, hence my word choice in my response. Again, my apologies.




The whole thing:



Paladins are always Noble and never evil. Otherwise, they are Blackguard or whatever.


You know, that's kinda the point of paladins.


Yes, but its kind of stupid considering that Paladins should have different morals compared to other paladins and nobles. They're kind of like Vigilantes that mess with law and order of a city, just because it doesn't fit their world view.

I had a couple Paladins killing off the clergy of other churches in order to gain more favor with their God. Makes sense.


Uh, you do still remember that your character is supposed to be champion of god and fighter for justice? It's right here, in the class description.


At least by 3.5 D&D (And a few earlier versions) That's because that is in the rules. A Paladin who ever willingly commits any evil act loses all their powers by the D&D 3.5 rules.


Justice is defined by whatever god you follow. Killing the clergy of another religion could be justice. They worship the [terrible evil] other god.


1) Paladins do not need to worship a god. I even believe this was ranted about earlier in the thread.

2) In D&D, Good and Evil are objective, not subjective. Justice refers to wrongdoing receiving legitimate and appropriate punishment. From there, it's simply a matter of variation in the extremes a particular Paladin sees as "appropriate" for whatever crimes.

Which does mean you could potentially have Paladins end up fighting each other because one is heavy on the "mercy" part of Good while the other is heavy on the "laying the lethal smackdown on the evil dudes" part of justice, and they can't (for whatever reason) convince the other nonviolently to step down and back off with regard to how a certain person/group should be dealt with. So you're not COMPLETELY wrong.

I was taking issue with what I thought you meant based on what you said, and assuming your point was intended to be support for all of the other things that DontEatRawHaggis said, which were being called all wrong by me by implication.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-23, 06:28 PM
That can work with a campaign of suitable scope, but in a more mercenary, murder-hobo type campaign that doesn't really work, though it is notably less problematic. Unless of course, I'm in the middle of the process of increasing the campaign's scope from, "We're wandering grave robbers," to, "We've got to stop the villain's nefarious scheme."

I kind of just want to thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for using the term "murder-hobo". I don't remember the last time I laughed that hard.

But I have one:

Elves being both all in tune with nature and good with bows AND super kick-ass spellcasters I suppose one of the VERY few things I like about 4E is that it splits them in two, but still, this always bothered me.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-23, 06:55 PM
Another, though this one doesn't bother me much at all:

The typical adventuring party is made up of about 4 homeless, grave-robbing, murder-it-if-it-moves, lunatic, orphans; with about as much personality as the paper their stats are printed on.

I can work with it for a while, but I get a bit irate if things don't progress beyond that point, unless it just a one-off.

EDIT: I forgot kleptomaniac. Though that particular trait does get old a bit quicker than the others. Do you know how long it takes to loot a dungeon when the party thinks that everything not nailed down or on fire is loot. Especially if they're prone to carrying pry-bars and fire-extinguishers. :smallannoyed:

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-23, 07:42 PM
EDIT: I forgot kleptomaniac. Though that particular trait does get old a bit quicker than the others. Do you know how long it takes to loot a dungeon when the party thinks that everything not nailed down or on fire is loot. Especially if they're prone to carrying pry-bars and fire-extinguishers. :smallannoyed:

To be fair, I usually carry a pry bar because I'm afraid that...

Being a rogue/chaotic neutral means it's totally not a **** move to just not tell other party members important information about enemies or traps or loot.

Having my own pry bar makes it so occasionally I can open something without the ******* rogue's help.

toapat
2012-07-23, 07:46 PM
Especially if they're prone to carrying pry-bars and fire-extinguishers. :smallannoyed:

well, what about the walls, and mountain the dungeon is built in? Stone has value too. do they bring oxcarts and bison herds?

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-23, 08:07 PM
well, what about the walls, and mountain the dungeon is built in? Stone has value too. do they bring oxcarts and bison herds?

Not if they want me to keep DM'ing. I don't mind looting. It's when it gets out of hand and the 3rd+ level party is still asking about tin cups to swipe out of the commisary cupboard of the death-cult temple they just raided, or taking the time to remove any well-made steel doors they come across because, "we can sell it for its raw material." At 1st level, maybe even 2nd level, that's to be expected; but they know I'm not stingy with the loot dammit.

If we've reached the point where if I were to tell them their mundane clothing suddenly dissapeared while they were in the middle of the street and the crowd can't see anything interesting because of all their magic items, it's time to stick to high-value, low-mass items.

The Random NPC
2012-07-23, 10:50 PM
Another, though this one doesn't bother me much at all:

The typical adventuring party is made up of about 4 homeless, grave-robbing, murder-it-if-it-moves, lunatic, orphans; with about as much personality as the paper their stats are printed on.

I can work with it for a while, but I get a bit irate if things don't progress beyond that point, unless it just a one-off.

EDIT: I forgot kleptomaniac. Though that particular trait does get old a bit quicker than the others. Do you know how long it takes to loot a dungeon when the party thinks that everything not nailed down or on fire is loot. Especially if they're prone to carrying pry-bars and fire-extinguishers. :smallannoyed:

I'm currently playing in a group like this. The biggest offender to me is the paladin player, so being that I'm Lawful evil, I'll be trying to corrupt him. I don't think it'll work though, he didn't even blink when I pointed out that the band of goblins surrounding the dead woman might have been trying to aid her (at the very least it didn't justify murdering them without assessing the situation.)

Pyromancer999
2012-07-23, 10:54 PM
Humans mating with everything. That one bothers me too. We should see more hybrids that don't include human or dragon, if it's really that easy.

Yeah. What also strikes me as odd is why dragons are attracted to humans and other creatures(horses, panthers, etc.) even though it'd make more sense for them to be more attracted to members of their own species. Not that I'm saying love between a dragon and a human or other non-dragon creature shouldn't happen, say, if they're attracted to each other's personalities or something, or as it's sometimes justified, superior minion creation, but I don't get why the creators decided to give dragons, who are supposed to be wise and intelligent in their doings and magic and such, such a primal lust for everything with a pulse. Sort of feels like a character flaw tacked on.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-23, 11:46 PM
Yeah. What also strikes me as odd is why dragons are attracted to humans and other creatures(horses, panthers, etc.) even though it'd make more sense for them to be more attracted to members of their own species. Not that I'm saying love between a dragon and a human or other non-dragon creature shouldn't happen, say, if they're attracted to each other's personalities or something, or as it's sometimes justified, superior minion creation, but I don't get why the creators decided to give dragons, who are supposed to be wise and intelligent in their doings and magic and such, such a primal lust for everything with a pulse. Sort of feels like a character flaw tacked on.

Shapechanging magic. The dragon wasn't necessarily a dragon when that half-dragon (whatever) was conceived.

Attraction is as much in the brain as it is in the mind, and when magic starts tinkering with your biological wiring all sorts of odd and unexpected feelings are liable to crop-up. Though I should think that there would be a much higher proliferation of half-dragons of animal intelligence coming out of the unions of mettalic dragons than chromatic.

GenericGuy
2012-07-23, 11:52 PM
Yeah. What also strikes me as odd is why dragons are attracted to humans and other creatures(horses, panthers, etc.) even though it'd make more sense for them to be more attracted to members of their own species. Not that I'm saying love between a dragon and a human or other non-dragon creature shouldn't happen, say, if they're attracted to each other's personalities or something, or as it's sometimes justified, superior minion creation, but I don't get why the creators decided to give dragons, who are supposed to be wise and intelligent in their doings and magic and such, such a primal lust for everything with a pulse. Sort of feels like a character flaw tacked on.

My dragons take on a much more demonic role as immortal beings with an alien morality and prefer working behind the scenes in subtle ways. There are only about a dozen of them, so they aren’t really a race or species in the traditional sense, they all hate each other, and any full blooded offspring would just be rival for food and territory. They sire half-dragons to work as agents in the humanoid lands, advancing the dragon's agenda (whatever it might be) by infiltrating the local populace. Some dragons just father or mother an entire nation, who then worship the dragon as a god.

Manly Man
2012-07-24, 01:10 AM
well, what about the walls, and mountain the dungeon is built in? Stone has value too. do they bring oxcarts and bison herds?

Certain kinds of marble and granite, even soapstone, are very valuable. If they end up somehow happening upon a place loaded with that sort of rock, the players could have themselves a worthwhile long time investment on their hands.

Libertad
2012-07-24, 01:37 AM
That Chaotic Neutral people are all mentally unstable, or can perform any moral action and still retain their alignment (most notably evil acts).

That elves are all insufferable, bigoted jerks who loudly express their views at every opportunity.

That Wizards all wear robes.

Ranting Fool
2012-07-24, 02:50 AM
That Wizards all wear robes.

And pointy Hats

North_Ranger
2012-07-24, 06:09 AM
And pointy Hats


With stars on them.

crazyhedgewizrd
2012-07-24, 07:15 AM
PCs are the only people who can sort out problems, like stoping bandits, killing wild animals, stopping a rebellion. When there is a lord sitting in his castle just over there, with enough men at arms to sort this out.

Morithias
2012-07-24, 07:25 AM
PCs are the only people who can sort out problems, like stoping bandits, killing wild animals, stopping a rebellion. When there is a lord sitting in his castle just over there, with enough men at arms to sort this out.

Oh god that so pissed me off. I've made it very clear that in my campaign setting there are a ton of adventurers running around and if you take too long someone else WILL beat you to the punch, with the rare exception (The dracovian band only being able to stop Lucifer for instance, since they're immune to truespeak)

Kurald Galain
2012-07-24, 08:22 AM
With stars on them.

And have a Staff With A Knob At The End.

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-24, 08:25 AM
And have a Staff With A Knob At The End.

And have a permenant Expedios Retreat and haste on them
(Wait, thats just Rincewind)

toapat
2012-07-24, 09:38 AM
Certain kinds of marble and granite, even soapstone, are very valuable. If they end up somehow happening upon a place loaded with that sort of rock, the players could have themselves a worthwhile long time investment on their hands.

i know, thats my point, if you start bringing Prybars and Fire-exsiguishers, you might as well research the 3rd level spell Quarry, and put the dungeon fully out of commission

Roguenewb
2012-07-24, 11:19 AM
I started a terrible trend in a game once. I had some brand new players, who were totally cool with a high Storytelling game, and they were pretty good about looting, but then they killed a Displacer beast. One wanted it's hide so they could use it to make a cloak. They never got the cloak, but sold the skin, and realized magical beast and creature parts are valuable. Ever since, if it moves...it's worth gold to someone /sigh.

Dimers
2012-07-24, 12:05 PM
With stars on them.

I'm a five-star wizard!


And have a Staff With A Knob At The End.

I'm a chief of staff!

:smalltongue:

Geostationary
2012-07-24, 01:22 PM
And have a Staff With A Knob At The End.

Only Orangutans can run Magical Libraries

Dimers
2012-07-24, 01:46 PM
Here's a stereotype that annoys me -- that wizards don't know how to have fun. Brilliant people in the real world are definitely not serious all the time; they cut loose in all kinds of fun and expressive ways. Compare the typical wizard's academy to, say, MIT ... and then add in the fact that the wizards can manipulate reality with next to no expenses ... and try and tell me there wouldn't be wacky antics ALL. THE. TIME.

AgentofHellfire
2012-07-24, 01:49 PM
Here's a stereotype that annoys me -- that wizards don't know how to have fun. Brilliant people in the real world are definitely not serious all the time; they cut loose in all kinds of fun and expressive ways. Compare the typical wizard's academy to, say, MIT ... and then add in the fact that the wizards can manipulate reality with next to no expenses ... and try and tell me there wouldn't be wacky antics ALL. THE. TIME.


This and "Paladins don't know how to have fun" are pretty bad, yeah.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-07-24, 02:00 PM
and to extend that:

Innkeeper means Retired Adventurer

That one's for practical reasons: If the players get uppity it's a handy way to explain why they suddenly have an epic-level NPC who wants them dead.

Megasaber4000
2012-07-24, 02:55 PM
elfs are pure beings of amazing qualities.
half elfs are to be shunned
humans are easy to corrupt and get in the ways of every one
humans from the north are raciest and very strong

Ranting Fool
2012-07-24, 05:56 PM
elfs are pure beings of amazing qualities.
half elfs are to be shunned
humans are easy to corrupt and get in the ways of every one
humans from the north are raciest and very strong

And for some reason keep talking about how it'll soon be winter :smallbiggrin:

Every city no matter how small has a Thieves Guild, it's not the crime that bothers me but the organised crime

Riverdance
2012-07-24, 05:57 PM
Humans mating with everything. That one bothers me too. We should see more hybrids that don't include human or dragon, if it's really that easy.

BoEF has an extensive cross-breeding table of a lot of the common races and monsters.

navar100
2012-07-24, 06:01 PM
The northern part of the continent is mountainous and cold. Barbarians live there.

The southern part of the continent is tropical and swampy.

Party has to become caravan guards to travel.

Party has to temporarily join the crew of a ship for passage over the sea. The ship will be attacked by pirates/sea monster/sea creatures. There will also be a storm that may or may not happen at the same time.

Members of the party need to know important information. Try as they might, they can't find the answers but learn of a Sage who knows. The Sage demands a high price in gp at least five times the party's current wealth. However, if they were to do a job for him . . .

The East is the Orient. The desert is Arabian.

All traveling circuses are thieves.

A person wearing a cloak concealing his/her face sits alone in the back of the tavern.

Erik Vale
2012-07-24, 06:09 PM
The northern part of the continent is mountainous and cold. Barbarians live there.

The southern part of the continent is tropical and swampy.


While guilty of these-

When living in the Southern Hemishere (IRL)-
The North is a hot tropical jungle that may or may not be filled with a lizardfolk varient.
The South is filled with vast tracts of snow and ice.

Kane0
2012-07-24, 08:04 PM
Some are specific to my group, others not so much.

At least one party member must always go against the grain

A dwarf can always outdrink you

The party must always have a frontliner, a healer, a skillmonkey and a glass cannon

The party males must always pursue women and get restrained by the party females

Humans have the worst sense of smell of all the core races

If it cant speak properly its barbaric and needs to die

leveling up means you get money

More to come later...

Man on Fire
2012-07-25, 04:24 PM
The war god is male and evil. The love god is female.

Note: If I'm ever going to DM D&D, God of Love will be based on Shawn Michaels.


The Ultimate weapon of Goodness is always a sword that cleaves evil (and further annoyingly, it's never named "Sanger Zonvolt")

Note: If I'm going to bring up such sword in any game, I must name it Sanger Zonvolt

My personal: Orcs are always dumb barbarians, goblins are always dumb cowardly thieves, Elves are perfect - hate those three with passion.

Menteith
2012-07-25, 05:02 PM
My personal: Orcs are always dumb barbarians, goblins are always dumb cowardly thieves, Elves are perfect - hate those three with passion.

Agreed. Seriously, **** Elves.

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-25, 05:07 PM
I like Elves. They make good test subjects for my Xenoalchemist Character. Or food for my Demon Troll. Or ammunition for my Elfapult. Elves are useful:smallbiggrin: So long as they're screaming/dead. Otherwise:smallyuk:

navar100
2012-07-25, 06:42 PM
NPCs with "Draco" or "Von" in their names are known bad guys who can't be touched by the party due to politics or they're at least double their level or both. "Draco" is dealing with a Devil or Demon if not one himself; "Von" is a vampire. They are the BBEG. When finally defeated, the party learns who's the true BBEG Draco/Von has been working for.

Ranting Fool
2012-07-25, 10:42 PM
NPCs with "Draco" or "Von" in their names are known bad guys who can't be touched by the party due to politics or they're at least double their level or both. "Draco" is dealing with a Devil or Demon if not one himself; "Von" is a vampire. They are the BBEG. When finally defeated, the party learns who's the true BBEG Draco/Von has been working for.

hehe well last time I had a baron "Von" something I did make them sound like they might be a vampire... they weren't but my players weren't bothered to follow up that plot hook :smallsigh:

Marlowe
2012-07-25, 10:50 PM
The party males must always pursue women and get restrained by the party females



I prefer

The party females must always pursue women and write appalling slashfic about the party males.

toapat
2012-07-25, 10:57 PM
The party females must always pursue women and write appalling slashfic about the party males.

struckthrough portion is RL, not RP

AgentofHellfire
2012-07-26, 01:18 PM
Big one I remembered just now...


Classes, Levels and Hit Points are laws of physics: Ultimately, they are not. They are simply numerical ways to avoid godmodding.

Beleriphon
2012-07-26, 03:29 PM
If someone is kidnapped, it's a woman, never man. - I guess that's because party wouldn't want to rescue a prince.

Robin the Boy Hostage meet Hyena, Hyena meet Robin the Boy Hostage.

I admit its not D&D, but still the idea of kidnap victims being women only is wrong. Its just as often children, or old people.

Misc85
2012-07-28, 09:36 PM
All good characters get along and never disagree about what is right.

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-28, 09:51 PM
Paladins are never wrong:smallyuk:

Rouges/Warlocks are always lying to you.

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-28, 09:52 PM
And wizards are just like the foum. Almightly... till theres a glitch.

Dr.Epic
2012-07-28, 09:53 PM
Bards=wacky jokers

Manly Man
2012-07-29, 04:19 AM
That a lich always has to be some evil arcane maniac who refuses to reside anywhere but in a dark tower and makes poses against the skyline and gets lit up by lightning flashes, refusing to turn up at five-and-twenty past eleven if he can possibly turn up at midnight.

The Random NPC
2012-07-29, 04:29 AM
That a lich always has to be some evil arcane maniac who refuses to reside anywhere but in a dark tower and makes poses against the skyline and gets lit up by lightning flashes, refusing to turn up at five-and-twenty past eleven if he can possibly turn up at midnight.

Well liches are casters of 11th caster level or higher that have willing performed an unspeakably evil ritual. And since they look like rotting corpses, it's not like they have a lot of choices in real estate.

Ranting Fool
2012-07-29, 04:29 AM
That a lich always has to be some evil arcane maniac who refuses to reside anywhere but in a dark tower and makes poses against the skyline and gets lit up by lightning flashes, refusing to turn up at five-and-twenty past eleven if he can possibly turn up at midnight.

hehe

Also Vampires can't make the sound W

"I Vont to suck your blood!"

Dr.Epic
2012-07-29, 09:11 PM
Orcs are always barbarians.

They may not always be barbarians, but it's the only thing they're good at.

:smallwink:
:smalltongue:

Arbane
2012-07-30, 01:47 PM
Classes, Levels and Hit Points are laws of physics: Ultimately, they are not. They are simply numerical ways to avoid godmodding.

I disagree. In D&D, a spellcaster's level IS a law of physics, and if you know what their most powerful spell is, you can guess their level +/- 1.

BRC
2012-07-30, 02:40 PM
Well liches are casters of 11th caster level or higher that have willing performed an unspeakably evil ritual. And since they look like rotting corpses, it's not like they have a lot of choices in real estate.
Eh, I think the Gorilla rule applies here:

By which I mean, Where does a nigh-unkillable being with no moral compass and loads of magical power live? Wherever it Wants!.


NPCs with "Draco" or "Von" in their names are known bad guys who can't be touched by the party due to politics or they're at least double their level or both. "Draco" is dealing with a Devil or Demon if not one himself; "Von" is a vampire. They are the BBEG. When finally defeated, the party learns who's the true BBEG Draco/Von has been working for.

I now want to run an adventure where the PC's are called in by a king to help him find the traitor at his court. They are informed that they can work with the King's trusted advisor: Baron Draco Von Bludsburg, who happens to show up as neutral on any Detect Alignment spells, and who is wearing a Ring of Mind Shielding.
If asked, Baron Draco Von Bludsburg vanished about fifteen years ago. When the King returned from a trip abroad, Baron Von Bludsburg was with him, and the King instantly appointed him chancellor of the realm and adviser to the throne. He refuses to speak about what happened during the years he was gone, but he is an accomplished swordsman, and he demonstrates considerable knowledge about Undead, Necromacy, Warlocks, and Evil Outsiders.

If asked about the Baron, the King will not say why he appointed him, only that he is "Very Trustworthy".

Draco Von Bludsburg spent those fifteen years as a Paladin. His Order swears a Vow of Anonymity. They are prohibited from seeking glory through reputation, and thus must perform all their deeds in a mask, and are forbidden from identifying which paladin of the order did what deeds.
He saved the King's life, and was released from the Order to serve as Chancellor. The King is respecting his oaths by keeping what he did a secret.

The Random NPC
2012-07-30, 03:25 PM
Eh, I think the Gorilla rule applies here:

By which I mean, Where does a nigh-unkillable being with no moral compass and loads of magical power live? Wherever it Wants!.

Well, you kind of have two choices, you live in a abandoned castle and deal with adventures every once in a while, or you can live in the populace and deal with the neighborhood association... I would choose the adventures.

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-30, 03:35 PM
Eh, I think the Gorilla rule applies here:

By which I mean, Where does a nigh-unkillable being with no moral compass and loads of magical power live? Wherever it Wants!.


My PnP group knows where to find the Liches. They always seem to be renting the basement from one of the groups parents/ orphanage/ Pack of wild animals. Because hey, sure, they're powerful beings of almost pure magical and negative energy made physical, but even for them, rent is cheaper then buying. I mean, have you seen the mortgage rates on the ruined dungeons and castles! And they call us evil!

BRC
2012-07-30, 03:41 PM
My PnP group knows where to find the Liches. They always seem to be renting the basement from one of the groups parents/ orphanage/ Pack of wild animals. Because hey, sure, they're powerful beings of almost pure magical and negative energy made physical, but even for them, rent is cheaper then buying. I mean, have you seen the mortgage rates on the ruined dungeons and castles! And they call us evil!

I am now imagining a Hobo-Lich, living in a box by the side of the road, clad in only a tattered once-powerful robe. A sign reads "Will Perform Atrocities For Spell Components"

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-30, 03:47 PM
I am now imagining a Hobo-Lich, living in a box by the side of the road, clad in only a tattered once-powerful robe. A sign reads "Will Perform Atrocities For Spell Components"

What do you think happens to them after a few adventuring partys:smallfrown: Those murder-hobos come in, kill them, steal everything that isn't nailed down, quickly teleport back to town for a crowbar, then take everything else.

Imagine that happening to you three, four, tewenty times:smallfrown: And they can't press charges, because they set off the groups paladins "Evil radar". They lose almost everything, no minion will work for them, the banks forclose on them and take whatevers left, and the lower planes won't do a loan because, "The return is not worth the investment."

It's not easy being a lich in this day and age.

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-30, 04:05 PM
Murderhobos who happen to be paldins can get away with anything. So long s they say it set off their "Evil Radar".

BRC
2012-07-30, 04:18 PM
What do you think happens to them after a few adventuring partys:smallfrown: Those murder-hobos come in, kill them, steal everything that isn't nailed down, quickly teleport back to town for a crowbar, then take everything else.

Imagine that happening to you three, four, tewenty times:smallfrown: And they can't press charges, because they set off the groups paladins "Evil radar". They lose almost everything, no minion will work for them, the banks forclose on them and take whatevers left, and the lower planes won't do a loan because, "The return is not worth the investment."

It's not easy being a lich in this day and age.

It's an all too common story. The lucky ones can crash on the couch of a friendly bloodthirsty warlord or demon cult, usually by saying it's just until they can get back on their feet. But all too many of them simply fall through the cracks.

This is what happened to Xithalzor. He was using the Forbidden Scrolls of Ahzal-Bareen to raise a Lost Temple and unleash a thousand evils onto the world, but he was stopped by an unlikely group of heroes, who smashed his army of minions, evaded his traps, and took everything he has.

Now, only the dark energies that animate him keep him in a horrible mockery of life. But you can help. With your help, we can provide him with a crypt, a team of minions, and a book of cursed knowledge.

Dial 1-800-LOST-LICH today, to help one of the hundreds of Liches like Xithalzor. You CAN make a difference in their unlives.


Don't forget to ask about our "Habitat for Inhumanity" project.

Erik Vale
2012-07-30, 06:42 PM
Past Several Posts

BWAHAHAHAHA!
Thats good guys.

Marlowe
2012-07-30, 11:59 PM
I had a 6th level party discover a Lich sitting sidewise on his throne. Wearing sneakers and a track suit, reading a book entitled "horrendously evil deeds for dummies". His opener was "Hey. Got any books?"

He didn't get any more threatening from there, really.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-31, 12:08 AM
It's always fun to make an immortal character that's grown mad from boredom, because he wasn't originally immortal and his kind were never meant to live that long.

Marlowe
2012-07-31, 01:09 AM
This one would use complicated illusion magic to make the bronze armour worn by his skeletal guards (who were instructed to repel intruders with deadpan sarcasm) look like 20% tin when it was really only 12%.

He was quite put out the adventurers didn't find this especially amusing.

faustin
2012-07-31, 07:24 PM
Humans mating with everything. That one bothers me too. We should see more hybrids that don't include human or dragon, if it's really that easy.


Half-elves, half-orcs, half-dwarves, half-demons, half-ponies.... it´s reminds me about that Action Man commentary regarding Ben 10 evolution; according to the writters, humans special ability respect to the rest of alien species (fly, fireballs, diamond-like skin, superspeed, magic, etc...) was our maleable DNA which allowed us to BREED with most of the rest of sentient species of the universe (hence the amount of half-aliens among the Plumbers).

Razanir
2012-07-31, 09:43 PM
Halflings are ALWAYS rogues/thieves. bloody Bilbo Baggins! :smallbiggrin: to often my players see a halfling and think "Ah me must be a stealthy untrustworthy little git!" and then I end up pandering to this :smalltongue:

ACTUALLY... Read The Hobbit, Thorin and Co. call Bilbo a burglar.

BootStrapTommy
2012-07-31, 10:07 PM
Every Rogue is a Thief: Those of you who mentioned this, well, you aren't alone. I find it intensely aggravating as well.

This annoys the hell out of me. Though more commonly in my circle it's "the rogue is that ******* who disarms traps."

BootStrapTommy
2012-07-31, 10:54 PM
Personally, I appear to have little first hand knowledge of most of these, but that is a result of the zany group of mates I run with.
The ones which seem to haunt us are:

Rogues are always lechers.

Tieflings are always sluts.

Chaotic Neutral characters can justify any action with "ehnf, fruggit."

Chaotic Neutral character must be apathetic. Or crazy.

The guy who gives you the quest, while unassuming, is a monstrously powerful deity or quasi-deity who will ruin your day if you don't say yes because the DM is a lazy ass.

Anyone named Louise, Louis, or Louie is a devil.

Knights serve only as damage sponges.

Peasant PCs can totally just disregard, and even insult, noble NPCs or PCs, whilst keeping their head.

The DM is never supposed to kill off your character and you will always win the fight. If not, the DM is out to get you.

One should never play a knight, paladin, samuria, monk, or other such duty-bound class, as the DM is out to get you.

The DM is out to get you.

When enemies retreat through a doorway or into a cave, you will be attacked by a Phase Spider instead of a trap, who will follow and haunt your party for the entirety of the campaign, leveling with you (Okay. So maybe the DM is out to GET YOU?).

Rangers must be archers.

The only weapon martial classes use is the greatsword.

Fighters are only melee characters, never ranged.

Ninjas have katanas and shuriken.

When someone tells you to do something with no explanation, it will always be bad for you.

Doors and magical artifacts are always trapped.

Just a few I can think of.

BootStrapTommy
2012-07-31, 10:56 PM
This made me think of one:

You never meet old Paladins.

You reminded me of another.

All paladins who live long enough, eventually become Blackguards.
That's why you never meet an old paladin.

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-31, 10:59 PM
I'm playing a TN Engineer. Now, it's a sterotype that all TN are wish-washy. I'm TN because I'm a Elan (Read Abberation), and my motives don't make a ton of sense to non-abberations minds, but I'm more or less friendly. Through I have my evil moments. PSR anyone? (Paladin Seeking Rocket. Attactes a Kender to them with Super glue.)

Morithias
2012-07-31, 11:42 PM
Tieflings are always sluts.


I dare you to say that to my tiefling Yumi. She will unload 5 bullets into your skill from 100 feet away with her Musket.

Ironically Aasimars are sluttier than tieflings. They have higher charisma, and sex is a perform skill, so aasimars are naturally better at it than tieflings.

:P

BootStrapTommy
2012-07-31, 11:55 PM
I dare you to say that to my tiefling Yumi. She will unload 5 bullets into your skill from 100 feet away with her Musket.

Ironically Aasimars are sluttier than tieflings. They have higher charisma, and sex is a perform skill, so aasimars are naturally better at it than tieflings.

:P

Being a slut has nothing to do with being charismatic nor being good in bed. It's about willingness.

Also, tieflings are most frequently warlocks in our campaigns, so they are high charisma any way. And female. It's way easier to be a slut when you're female.

Also, I apologize for how chauvinistic that last part sounds.

crazyhedgewizrd
2012-08-01, 12:32 AM
Peasant PCs can totally just disregard, and even insult, noble NPCs or PCs, whilst keeping their head.

One of my less favourite aspects of playing, I've seen this over a few dozen times. In one game a fellow party member insulted a high noble and when i demanded a apology from him to the noble, he attemped to attack me so i ended up killing him.

toapat
2012-08-01, 12:33 AM
and sex is a perform skill

Perform (Sexual Acts) is third party last i checked

Morithias
2012-08-01, 12:39 AM
Perform (Sexual Acts) is third party last i checked

It's all we have to go by. So I stand by what I said. Unless WOTC comes out with an official word, I'm going to stick by this to the bitter end!

toapat
2012-08-01, 12:49 AM
It's all we have to go by. So I stand by what I said. Unless WOTC comes out with an official word, I'm going to stick by this to the bitter end!

you really want to consider THAT supplement correct at all?

im more ok with EN-Armory's Chainmail Bikini supplement

Craft (Cheese)
2012-08-01, 01:04 AM
im more ok with EN-Armory's Chainmail Bikini supplement

Yeah, at least that one doesn't try to take itself so seriously...

Jaelesh
2012-08-01, 02:50 AM
Probably not only applicable to my experiences.

There must ALWAYS be some sort of amnesiac with a dark past, either in the group, or as an enemy/ally/plot hook/etc.
Every. Single. Time. :mad:

If the group members all have a good alignment, they can do no wrong
Seriously, what the hell. I had a group once where they decided to slaughter an entire village (whole population including the elderly, infirm, and non-combatants) of regular people because they didn't give up one evil person that pinged the paladin's Detect Evil (I tend to call this the Pending Murder detector), claiming that the village was aiding evil in the world.

Evil governments must not care about it's citizens and have no legal rights, while good governments must be compassionate, non-tyrannical, and believe in helping the masses
Yeah.... I have messed with this on many occasions, the 'evil' government that has free medical care and codified law systems that protects the citizens from abuse by higher ranking members, and 'good' government that oppress the people in the name of the greater good, allowing nobles to do as they please to commoners, and have an incredibly brutal slavery system.

As per above: Slavery is an undeniably evil practice.
Not sure if I should even bring this one up....

Vampires must be suave, sexy socialites.
C'mon, really? Give me the olden day vampire, all about the hunt, primal hunger, etc.

The Random NPC
2012-08-01, 04:07 AM
As per above: Slavery is an undeniably evil practice.
Not sure if I should even bring this one up....

You really shouldn't, it's pretty generally accepted that slavery is bad, and it is very likely to draw in heated arguments that will derail the thread. And it will probably bring in real world politics as examples for why it's bad.

Manly Man
2012-08-01, 04:22 AM
An evil dragon cannot eat anything but people.

JetThomasBoat
2012-08-01, 05:17 AM
An evil dragon cannot eat anything but people.

Who's to say people don't taste really good?

Here's one for me:
Dragons always have a hoard that they seemingly do nothing but sleep on and...well...hoard...

Ranting Fool
2012-08-01, 06:06 AM
Here's one for me:
Dragons always have a hoard that they seemingly do nothing but sleep on and...well...hoard...

Yeah, where are all those investment savy Dragon bankers?!

Dusk Eclipse
2012-08-01, 06:15 AM
Yeah, where are all those investment savy Dragon bankers?!

Well in Eberron there are savy Dwarf bankers.... Damn >_< now I want to DM a game in which a party after slaying a dragon they maketp their way to the hoard only to find a Magic Mouth spell which tells them:

"House Kundarac (?) thanks you for choosing us as your hoard guarding services, for more benefits please cast a sending spell to you neares House Kundarak outpost".

Ranting Fool
2012-08-01, 06:43 AM
The Mcgruff needed to defeat the Evil Big Bad is hidden in the Mountian of doom past the lair of the evil thing upon a lake of lava! Never say, hidden away under a rock somewhere random :smallbiggrin:

Lvl45DM!
2012-08-01, 06:45 AM
Who's to say people don't taste really good?

Here's one for me:
Dragons always have a hoard that they seemingly do nothing but sleep on and...well...hoard...

Well...yeah. Its a natural instinct for dragons to hoard.

Neutral Characters are basically good characters. This bugs me to no end. If your neutral character runs around saving the world thats normal but if they kill someone who bugs them that will turn them evil.
I play a LN half orc in a party of mostly CG and LG, so I'm basically the dirty work guy. If we need info I'll drag one of the enemy off into the bushes and torture him to get the info and my party none the wiser. First time I did this the DM tried to turn me LE cos it was an evil act. And I argued that I selflessly saved innocents but never turned LG. Took a while but eventually I won the right to do the occasional bit of evil.

Terazul
2012-08-01, 09:23 AM
Well...yeah. Its a natural instinct for dragons to hoard.

Neutral Characters are basically good characters. This bugs me to no end. If your neutral character runs around saving the world thats normal but if they kill someone who bugs them that will turn them evil.
I play a LN half orc in a party of mostly CG and LG, so I'm basically the dirty work guy. If we need info I'll drag one of the enemy off into the bushes and torture him to get the info and my party none the wiser. First time I did this the DM tried to turn me LE cos it was an evil act. And I argued that I selflessly saved innocents but never turned LG. Took a while but eventually I won the right to do the occasional bit of evil.

Yeaaah. A thing I find that is always kind of annoying is that for some reason if you're Evil, not constantly being a jerk 100% of the time will never have the risk of turning you Good or Neutral, but a character who has been generally good or neutral for most of their life risk overwriting all that becoming Evil at the first sign of even slight non-goodness. :smallmad: Oh sure, the rest of the party can tie up the kobold who ambushed us and hang him from the ceiling overnight, but if I as the LG Fighter dude crack the rope a little bit to get him moving when he's leading us somewhere and suddenly I'm on alignment watch because "torture is evil". :smallannoyed:

The Random NPC
2012-08-01, 10:47 AM
Who's to say people don't taste really good?

Here's one for me:
Dragons always have a hoard that they seemingly do nothing but sleep on and...well...hoard...

I think dragons have to eat their hoard to go to dragon heaven or something.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-08-01, 10:57 AM
As per above: Slavery is an undeniably evil practice.

I'm annoyed by a variant of this:

People who believe in practicing slavery cannot possibly have any redeeming qualities.

If this were actually true, Paladins would have slaughtered more or less every member of every pre-modern civilization on sight.

Though this is actually a special case of an even worse one: People either have only bad traits or only good traits. There is no middle ground.

Gnomish Wanderer
2012-08-01, 11:54 AM
The Mcgruff needed to defeat the Evil Big Bad is hidden in the Mountian of doom past the lair of the evil thing upon a lake of lava! Never say, hidden away under a rock somewhere random :smallbiggrin:
That's just basic storytelling though...

Evil empires always have a fully formed resistance fighting it that the players can get caught up in. Never 'just starting' or anything. I'm usually guilty of this v.v

Dusk Eclipse
2012-08-01, 01:30 PM
I think dragons have to eat their hoard to go to dragon heaven or something.

There is a prestige class for Dragons in the Draconomicon (Dragon Ascendant ?) that does require them to eat the hoards to qualify; but AFAIK on general Dragons do not eat their hoards.

The Random NPC
2012-08-01, 01:46 PM
That must be what I'm thinking of.

BootStrapTommy
2012-08-01, 04:16 PM
Though this is actually a special case of an even worse one: People either have only bad traits or only good traits. There is no middle ground.

What about Neutral characters?


Evil empires always have a fully formed resistance fighting it that the players can get caught up in. Never 'just starting' or anything. I'm usually guilty of this v.v

You should try the "starting one" some times. Interesting dynamic, fun as hell, and you can add resource management to it.


Vampires must be suave, sexy socialites.
C'mon, really? Give me the olden day vampire, all about the hunt, primal hunger, etc.

This drives me nuts. It's totally tied to this whole new vampire fad.
To me vampires will always be like liches, but without the willing choice part.

faustin
2012-08-01, 04:53 PM
I'm annoyed by a variant of this:

People who believe in practicing slavery cannot possibly have any redeeming qualities.

If this were actually true, Paladins would have slaughtered more or less every member of every pre-modern civilization on sight.

Though this is actually a special case of an even worse one: People either have only bad traits or only good traits. There is no middle ground

Funny. I´m playing Aquelarre (spanish hystorical game in the XII-XIII centuries with a few bits of local myths and magic), and one of the players was horrified after seeing a bunch of Jews being dragged in front of a church and receving a near-death beating as punishment for the murder of Christ, in Semana Santa. And all of this being considered a public, pious expression of faith (and thus considered "good" morality).

Arbane
2012-08-01, 05:09 PM
There is a prestige class for Dragons in the Draconomicon (Dragon Ascendant ?) that does require them to eat the hoards to qualify; but AFAIK on general Dragons do not eat their hoards.

ISTR that in AD&D, Gold Dragons actually ate gold and gems.


What about Neutral characters?

They have no characteristics at all. :smallwink:

http://www.determinismsucks.net/archive/TrueNeutralMotivator_2213-(n1295686957388).jpg



This drives me nuts. It's totally tied to this whole new vampire fad.
To me vampires will always be like liches, but without the willing choice part.


"New" fad? Bela Lugosi played Dracula back in 1931, and Carmilla was published in 1872.

BootStrapTommy
2012-08-01, 05:36 PM
"New" fad? Bela Lugosi played Dracula back in 1931, and Carmilla was published in 1872.

I've never thought Bela Lugosi was all that classy.
He always seems like a dweeb to me.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-01, 05:52 PM
"New" fad? Bela Lugosi played Dracula back in 1931, and Carmilla was published in 1872.

The story of Koschei the Deathless was included in a book of Russian fairy tales published in 1853, so by that reckoning vampires are 'new'.:smallcool:

Jaelesh
2012-08-01, 07:49 PM
The story of Koschei the Deathless was included in a book of Russian fairy tales published in 1853, so by that reckoning vampires are 'new'.:smallcool:

Not really, legends of vampire go back much further than that, possibly as far back as sumerian myths about the Edimmu, depending on how strict you want to get on the definition of a vampire. As for vampires being seen as social, romantic being, the oldest version of that I can think of is The Vampyre by John Polidori, published in 1819, based on an unfinished vampire novel by Lord Byron.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-08-01, 07:52 PM
There is a prestige class for Dragons in the Draconomicon (Dragon Ascendant ?) that does require them to eat the hoards to qualify; but AFAIK on general Dragons do not eat their hoards.

4e changed this: When dragons reach the end of their natural lifespan (their "Twilight" phase), they eat all the items of their hoard so nobody else can have it.


What about Neutral characters?

Neutral characters are Good characters. This is why neutral characters are never allowed to perform a single evil act, or their alignment instantly shifts to Evil.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-08-01, 08:24 PM
Being a slut has nothing to do with being charismatic nor being good in bed. It's about willingness.

Also, tieflings are most frequently warlocks in our campaigns, so they are high charisma any way. And female. It's way easier to be a slut when you're female.

Also, I apologize for how chauvinistic that last part sounds.
Actually, it's easier to be a slut when you're a male, 'cause you don't have to worry about pregnancy.

Of course, it's easiest when you're bisexual and can swap genders. My signature Exalted character is almost that (he's straight in his standard guy form, but female hormones combined with a guy mindset make him attracted to both sexes when a girl).

4e changed this: When dragons reach the end of their natural lifespan (their "Twilight" phase), they eat all the items of their hoard so nobody else can have it.

I think that's just an option some dragons take.

Personally, I think they just smirk and either scatter their hoard across the world or pull a Gold Roger.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-08-01, 09:16 PM
Actually, it's easier to be a slut when you're a male, 'cause you don't have to worry about pregnancy.

Silly Jade Dragon, "male slut" is an oxymoron! All men are willing to sleep with anyone of the correct gender who offers.

Marlowe
2012-08-01, 10:13 PM
((Raises a hand to disagree, then realises he has no coherent counter-argument.))

Alternatively, "slut" is just a sexist, abusive term period.

Grimsage Matt
2012-08-01, 10:15 PM
If I didn't think the book of exalted deeds feats were a bunch of troll.... I'd try and get all me guys oath of chasity. Way easier on the party, and you can be gaurntunned it'll save yer life when the DM sicks the Succubuss on ya.

BootStrapTommy
2012-08-01, 10:32 PM
Silly Jade Dragon, "male slut" is an oxymoron! All men are willing to sleep with anyone of the correct gender who offers.

By the willingness definition, I suppose you are right. Really, men are all sluts.
My point is that every time a tiefling comes into play, they try and sleep with EVERYTHING, like their Jack Harkness or something...

BootStrapTommy
2012-08-01, 10:36 PM
Of course, it's easiest when you're bisexual and can swap genders. My signature Exalted character is almost that (he's straight in his standard guy form, but female hormones combined with a guy mindset make him attracted to both sexes when a girl).

I ran a pansexual gender shifter in a GURPS campaign. Had "universal" attractiveness and could physically change gender on command. The GM was iffy about it, but then he said "you know I don't think that would really do anything but waste advantage points." I proved him wrong.

Menteith
2012-08-01, 10:57 PM
And that's why you should always play characters with sexuality that exists outside of the binary of current society. Go Team Changling/Warforged/Mind Flayer PCs!

crazyhedgewizrd
2012-08-01, 11:21 PM
If I didn't think the book of exalted deeds feats were a bunch of troll.... I'd try and get all me guys oath of chasity. Way easier on the party, and you can be gaurntunned it'll save yer life when the DM sicks the Succubuss on ya.

Not when you are in a live or die situtation, where having sex is the only option to live.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-08-01, 11:36 PM
Not when you are in a live or die situtation, where having sex is the only option to live.

Wow........... anybody else wanna touch this one, before I explain why this is just plain wrong?

JetThomasBoat
2012-08-02, 12:09 AM
Silly Jade Dragon, "male slut" is an oxymoron! All men are willing to sleep with anyone of the correct gender who offers.

God knows I am....

No, just kidding. A stereotype I've seen just a few times. The hunky, charismatic lady killer of a sorcerer or bard or vampire in disguise that are secretly evil that the party runs into always tries to seduce the girl party members.

Because only straight devilishly handsome and charismatic people befriend the party while secretly plotting to betray them/suck their blood.

Archpaladin Zousha
2012-08-02, 12:28 AM
Knights are always noble. ALWAYS.

Hear me out on this one.

Where are the Knights who lie, cheat at dice and insult people to their face, yet offers their opponent every chance in combat?
Yeah, where are the REAL knights like Terry Jones described:

"Being a knight meant three things: learning how to kill people, making money, and getting famous!"

Gnomish Wanderer
2012-08-02, 12:44 AM
Wow........... anybody else wanna touch this one, before I explain why this is just plain wrong?

Wha? I don't follow your logic to how this is wrong. GrimsageMatt said 'being chaste can save your life from a succubus' so crazyhedgewizard followed with 'unless the succubus puts you in a situation where you do or die, in which case it WON'T save your life'. It was, at best, a sarcastic comment which I found funny. Why would you think it was wrong?

BootStrapTommy
2012-08-02, 01:19 AM
Neutral characters are Good characters. This is why neutral characters are never allowed to perform a single evil act, or their alignment instantly shifts to Evil.

I had a pal who played a chaotic neutral character, who, after saving an entire village, went and killed an innocent child. The party was like "what the hell?" and he said "to balance my karma".

The Random NPC
2012-08-02, 01:24 AM
Wha? I don't follow your logic to how this is wrong. GrimsageMatt said 'being chaste can save your life from a succubus' so crazyhedgewizard followed with 'unless the succubus puts you in a situation where you do or die, in which case it WON'T save your life'. It was, at best, a sarcastic comment which I found funny. Why would you think it was wrong?

Because a do or die situation involving sex is normally called rape.

deuxhero
2012-08-02, 01:52 AM
And that's why you should always play characters with sexuality that exists outside of the binary of current society. Go Team Changling/Warforged/Mind Flayer PCs!

PF Tieflings can potentially join.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-08-02, 02:09 AM
Because a do or die situation involving sex is normally called rape.

Bingo. Give the man a cigar (or other appropriate prize if he's a non-smoker.) I wouldn't want to play with any DM that thought it was okay for a PC to be raped. It can get downright uncomfortable when it happens to an npc, "behind the scenes."