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Ramza00
2012-07-21, 06:13 PM
So if Roy Mustang and Aang or Korra were to duke it out, who would win in an all out magic fest. Roy Mustang must defeat the avatar for he is trying to conquer the world and enforcing the idea that women of applicable age and beauty must wear tiny mini skirts. The avatar being the representative of balance is on the side of women's freedom.

Competitions

Roy Mustang vs Avatar Aang (no Avatar State) when Aang is at the end of Book 3
Roy Mustang vs Avatar Kora (no Avatar State) when Korra is at the end of Book 1
Roy Mustang vs the Avatar State (it does not matter if it is Aang or Korra since the Avatar state is a gestalt of all the capabilities for the last 1000 lives.)

Location
The battle takes place 50ft apart with the bridge between them. The location is this picture below. Thus the avatar has easy access to earth, air and water.
http://images.wikia.com/avatar/images/6/69/Farming_village.png
For the people who don't recognize the village this is a village that Zuko and Iroh visited when they were fleeing Azula (episode Cave of Two Lovers). Iroh samples the leaves of a bush where he wasn't sure it was the Rare White Dragon Bush which leaves makes a tea so delicious it is heartbreaking or the White Jade Bush which is poisonous. Delectable tea or deadly poison?

Knowledge and Preparation

Neither combatant has any preparation for this fight
Roy Mustang is as familiar with bending as a normal citizen in the bending world. He knows of the avatar and would recognize that person on sight and knows the avatar can bend all four elements, but he has no special knowledge of the avatar's techniques nor of the avatar state.
The Avatar is familiar with the concept of alchemists, and the concept of state alchemists. He can recognize the flame alchemist on sight and knows of the name flame alchemist but doesn't have any other special knowledge of Roy Mustang's abilities.

Rules

Roy Mustang, has his flame cloth glove. He can perform other forms of transmutations if he draws the appropriate array.
Roy Mustang's knowledge of alchemy does not include witnessing the gate, so he must draw an array or use his flame cloth glove. No philosopher stones or other alchemy enhancers
Avatar Aang possess his air glider
Avatar Korra does not possess any special tools since she never seems to carry any around.

Lord Raziere
2012-07-21, 06:22 PM
Avatar hands down.

There is a huge difference between what Roy can do with fire, and what an Avatar does with all four elements.

Namely, unless Roy is willing to do his finger-snap trick to instantly set the Avatar on fire like he did with Lust…..there is not much he can do otherwise.

Morph Bark
2012-07-21, 06:26 PM
Namely, unless Roy is willing to do his finger-snap trick to instantly set the Avatar on fire like he did with Lust…..there is not much he can do otherwise.

Prettymuch. Plus, if his gloves get soaked, he can't do his fire thing. However, he would still have his normal alchemy, but we haven't seen how capable he is with that. He is pretty darn capable in melee combat, though, and likely to carry a firearm.

AmberVael
2012-07-21, 06:27 PM
Roy is awesome and all, but the Avatar can pretty much do everything he can but with less restraints.

I mean, technically Alchemy seems more a bit more capable of detail and fine tuning than Bending, but in a combat scenario I dunno if that would come up. I suppose there are also some substances that bending can't effect, but if you're the Avatar that's not nearly as big of a problem.

The Avatar State is just overkill.

Ramza00
2012-07-21, 06:39 PM
Well one thing that is unique about Roy compared to Avatar fire is the attack speed, it does not take much time to snap your fingers, and all Roy has to do is snap his fingers with either hand to create fire.

Also unlike Avatar fire Roy can choose to have the fire attack from multiple directions at once, since all he has to do is snap his fingers and then he uses his mind to control where there boom/burning occurs.

Dr.Epic
2012-07-21, 07:14 PM
As much as I love Mustang, he's WAY out of his league here. Not only can a fully trained avatar do everything Mustang can, they also have control over earth, water, and air without worrying about a transmutation circle and can go full avatar state which is almost like going super sayian. Against a firebender, he'd stand a good chance, but not against an avatar.

thubby
2012-07-21, 08:01 PM
if ang tries to firebend he's screwed. any flame he produces can be turn on him by roy creating a high oxygen pocket near him (which is how his flame alchemy works already)
roy could conceivably win, like if he were plotting to take on the avatar. but in a straight up fight roy is hosed.
probably literally.

Dr.Epic
2012-07-21, 09:48 PM
if ang tries to firebend he's screwed. any flame he produces can be turn on him by roy creating a high oxygen pocket near him (which is how his flame alchemy works already)

What? How? What are you talking about? When in the anime has Roy ever done this? His alchemy is identifying the air content, igniting a spark with his gloves, and using alchemy to expand the flame. Heck, in his fight with Pride in the first anime, Roy was at a disadvantage because Pride could alter the air content screwing up Roy's alchemy.

olelia
2012-07-21, 09:53 PM
I believe the oxygen description is from the "original" anime. Its described as him altering the oxygen levels when Roy and Full Metal go at it. I'd have to re-watch it to double check this but I do remember that particular description.

EDIT: Form the Wiki...for what its worth.


Made of "pyrotex/ignition cloth" and embroidered with unique flame alchemy Transmutation Circles, these gloves create a spark when Roy rubs his fingers together and allow him to manipulate the concentration of oxygen in the air surrounding his target, raising its density to a level at which it becomes a volatile and flammable oxidizer, and creating narrow pathways of oxygen through which he can direct the ensuing flame that blossoms from the spark. The 'snap' sound is caused by the instantaneous speed at which the highly concentrated gases and sparks react together and pop (not his fingers actually 'snapping', to common belief.)

INoKnowNames
2012-07-21, 10:11 PM
Avatar Aang possess his air glider

....... Was this supposed to be funny? Or am I just vastely underestimating the power of the Air Glider?

Because I don't see how either Avatar, now that Korra can air bender, would be even remotely threatened by the Flame Alchemist, nor that the Air Glider would make much of a difference in the fight.

Granted, I also don't remember the last time I saw an Air Bender fly on their own, but it doesn't seem impossible.

In any case, the last time I went through both Full Metal Alchemists, Roy's ability was the alter the air with his alchemy to spread the fire/explosions caused by his glove's spark, right?

Between being able to control Air, or possibly use nearby sources of Water, I don't see, at the very least Aang, or either Avatar in the Avatar State, too much issue with this fight. Although I'm not really knowledgable enough about either material to know what would happen with Firebending vs Alchemic Air Bent Bombs.

Still, wins in at least 2 out of the 4 elements. Heck, in the first Anime, Ed was basically Earth Bending against him, and didn't fair too poorly....

Xondoure
2012-07-21, 10:18 PM
Well if Mustang is pissed he burns the Avatar alive from the start, triggers avatar state and then gets pwned.

druid91
2012-07-21, 11:10 PM
Strangely, I'm going with Mustang on everything but avatar state. Avatar state is pretty dang broken what with continent shifting power and all.


But in a straight up fight a la the final showdown with ozai pre-avatar state? Mustang would probably kick Aangs rear end. Because it's like a smarter combustion man, and we all know it took deus ex machina and plot induced stupidity to stop him. And that's merely his signature move which as we know, all he needs is some chalk or something sharp to get around using.


Well if Mustang is pissed he burns the Avatar alive from the start, triggers avatar state and then gets pwned.

Even the avatar can't regrow melted eyes. Without the Homunculi's regeneration factor if mustang lands a serious hit Aang is screwed.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-21, 11:22 PM
Even the avatar can't regrow melted eyes. Without the Homunculi's regeneration factor if mustang lands a serious hit Aang is screwed.

I remember that fight.... Mustang was being freaking brutal....

But do you think he'll be able to get a hit in the first place? Think it would be possible to, essentially, out Airbend the Avatar, especially a native Airbending Avatar?

druid91
2012-07-21, 11:29 PM
I remember that fight.... Mustang was being freaking brutal....

But do you think he'll be able to get a hit in the first place? Think it would be possible to, essentially, out Airbend the Avatar, especially a native Airbending Avatar?
That was one of my favorite fights out of the whole series of FMA: Brotherhood.

Considering the air he was going to bend is now on fire, I'd say so.

But to be honest that's the only reason I think it would be a fight at all. Is the avatar state and combo air-firebending.

Avatar state wins because it's powerful enough to bend small continents and crush boulders down into compressed rocks the size of pebbles.

And Air-firebending wins because it can defend against flame alchemy.

Fan
2012-07-21, 11:35 PM
Well, I have to give it to Mustang. Aang's reactions and combat speed aren't exceptionally fast (neither is Mustangs), however Mustang has the ability to set the inside of Aang's skull on fire, and Aang doesn't have a whole lot of fire tolerance.

Something like this has even put down The Avatar State, only this time, it'll probably be a lot more grotesque, Mustang's range is just longer than Fire Bending or anything sans Earth Bending can compete with, it might end in a Double KO at best for Aang, but when Mustang can out of the gate boil your eyes out of your skull.

That's just mean.

And Korra has a far worse track record than Aang does even against people who only punch, and neither have even shown the CAPACITY to go for the kill.

It takes a lot of gumption to go for murder, and Mustang isn't a man who's afraid to kill.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-21, 11:42 PM
That was one of my favorite fights out of the whole series of FMA: Brotherhood.

Considering the air he was going to bend is now on fire, I'd say so.

But to be honest that's the only reason I think it would be a fight at all. Is the avatar state and combo air-firebending.

Avatar state wins because it's powerful enough to bend small continents and crush boulders down into compressed rocks the size of pebbles.

And Air-firebending wins because it can defend against flame alchemy.

Seems like it's one of those "Initiative" kinda fights... whoever acts firsts would probably win... although Roy would probably be able to end the Avatar a bit faster than the Avatar would end Roy.


Well, I have to give it to Mustang. Aang's reactions and combat speed aren't exceptionally fast (neither is Mustangs), however Mustang has the ability to set the inside of Aang's skull on fire, and Aang doesn't have a whole lot of fire tolerance.

Something like this has even put down The Avatar State, only thing time, it'll probably be a lot more grotesque, Mustang's range is just longer than Fire Bending or anything sans Earth Bending can compete with, it might end in a Double KO at best for Aang, but when Mustang can out of the gate boil your eyes out of your skull.

That's just mean.

And Korra has a far worse track record than Aang does even against people who only punch.

The only thing I dispute... and I don't even dispute it; I'm just curious, is that Roy would be able to go immediately, despite any distance or range, into making bombs inside the air space that would have been the Avatar's head.

Care to elaborate a bit on this? It seems like, and I don't doubt that I'm probably wrong, that he needs line of affect for that sort of thing, which the Avatar could block with a ball of air around himself, at which point it would come down to a Power Struggle, which I'd sooner give to the Avatar than to Roy...

...even if Roy has much better policies.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4GbLPZY-6Q)

I'm not saying a word about Korra, though. As much as I love her as a character, I definitely wouldn't see her as a rival to Roy or Aang, outside the Avatar State.

Darn it, stop editing your post! XD

As for not killing... supposedly, think Alchemy could be taken away as easily as Bending could?

Fan
2012-07-21, 11:46 PM
Well it just takes longer to do bending forms than a snap. That's the thing, and containing yourself within a ball of air against someone who turns it into explosions is kinda a bad idea. Roy is kinda a monster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtjphOOmasY&feature=player_detailpage#t=93s) when he's blood lusted.

Hell, even waterbending isn't that big of a deal since he keeps a Lighter on him since well.. the lust incident.

I'd give it to the Avatar raw power no problem, but you can't bend without your sense of sight, and all it takes is a moment for something like that to happen, and the agony from having your eyes boil would.. well it would incapacitate ME.

druid91
2012-07-22, 12:13 AM
As for not killing... supposedly, think Alchemy could be taken away as easily as Bending could?

I doubt it, the only thing we've seen to be able to remove alchemy is a lack of power source, and giving your gate to truth.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 12:22 AM
Well it just takes longer to do bending forms than a snap.

Point, although I've always found that silly about Avatar. The Taichiness is cute until someone gets a dirrect headshot.


That's the thing, and containing yourself within a ball of air against someone who turns it into explosions is kinda a bad idea.

I don't know much, and I don't even know why I think this, but I feel like it'd be hard to bend the Air that the Avatar is actively controlling inorder to make it explodable... it brings me back to the "Can you use Alchemy to Out Airbend the Avatar".


Roy is kinda a monster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtjphOOmasY&feature=player_detailpage#t=93s) when he's blood lusted.

That's the fight we were referencing earlier, actually...

.... and ****, it looks so brutal every time I see it.


Hell, even waterbending isn't that big of a deal since he keeps a Lighter on him since well.. the lust incident.

A lighter couldn't be rendered useless by being submerged in water? :smallfrown:

Never knew that....


I'd give it to the Avatar raw power no problem, but you can't bend without your sense of sight, and all it takes is a moment for something like that to happen, and the agony from having your eyes boil would.. well it would incapacitate ME.

.... While I can technically dispute the Sight thing with our favorite Blind Earth Bender, that's mostly being silly. Having your eyes ****ing boiled probably would at least slightly hinder someone, and that's putting it lightly.

Actually, wouldn't that sort of pain be enough to knock someone out / kill?

I still feel like the Avatar shouldn't be considered, well, defenseless at this situation... I've got the mental image of him launching gusts of air to intercept the sparks before he gets completely scorched.

.... but I'd be balls to the wall insane, after being reminded of how Mustang can actually fight and go for the kill when he really wants it, to count out Mustang for a second.


I doubt it, the only thing we've seen to be able to remove alchemy is a lack of power source, and giving your gate to truth.

Huh. I kinda stoped being able to understand what was going on when the mystic doors to other realms with the strange scary hands and why am I suddenly crying and throwing my monitor out the window...

Yeah, when that part started happening.

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 12:30 AM
I agree Avatar definitely, a far more diverse power set.
That being said, an Alchemist, particularly a State Alchemist, with their more scientific and analytical mindset, it would be interesting to see what they could discover about the art of Bending.
I smell crossover!:smallbiggrin:

druid91
2012-07-22, 12:37 AM
Huh. I kinda stoped being able to understand what was going on when the mystic doors to other realms with the strange scary hands and why am I suddenly crying and throwing my monitor out the window...

Yeah, when that part started happening.

Essentially alchemy requires three things to work, Knowledge of how it works which comes from the gate of truth and through study, Energy (Which in amestrian alchemy is derived from either philosophers stones, or the tectonic movement of the planet.) to power the changes, and a material to be manipulated.

This is IIRC of course. I could just be completely misremembering.

AmberVael
2012-07-22, 12:38 AM
I think people are overstating Mustang's ability to quickly use Flame Alchemy. You notice how he tends to sweep his arm between snaps, or gesture and point? I don't think that's just him being dramatic. The only time he doesn't seem to move his arm before "snapping" is when he's already directly pointing it at a target. I've always thought he used that to aim and direct his attacks, which is why you never seem him snap his fingers and make fire appear behind him, for example. I could be wrong though, as I'm just speaking from memory.

Another big thing I want to point out though is that the Avatar (either of them) has way more defensive capabilities than Roy does. Unlike Roy, they can actually block and disperse fire, and both Korra and Aang demonstrate the ability to do so very early on (and with different methods no less).

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 12:38 AM
Essentially alchemy requires three things to work, Knowledge of how it works which comes from the gate of truth and through study, Energy (Which in amestrian alchemy is derived from either philosophers stones, or the tectonic movement of the planet.) to power the changes, and a material to be manipulated.

This is IIRC of course. I could just be completely misremembering.

Yeah, the only thing i really remember without looking it up is how much it litterally made me **** myself in fear.


I think people are overstating Mustang's ability to quickly use Flame Alchemy. You notice how he tends to sweep his arm between snaps, or gesture and point? I don't think that's just him being dramatic. The only time he doesn't seem to move his arm before "snapping" is when he's already directly pointing it at a target. I've always thought he used that to aim and direct his attacks, which is why you never seem him snap his fingers and make fire appear behind him, for example. I could be wrong though, as I'm just speaking from memory.

.... let your memory be refreshed. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mhiYsD9Hi0&feature=player_detailpage#t=420s)

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 12:42 AM
If I remember correctly, the whole tectonic plates claim is just an in-universe theory talked about in bull sessions between characters, at least in the manga.

Fan
2012-07-22, 12:43 AM
I think people are overstating Mustang's ability to quickly use Flame Alchemy. You notice how he tends to sweep his arm between snaps, or gesture and point? I don't think that's just him being dramatic. The only time he doesn't seem to move his arm before "snapping" is when he's already directly pointing it at a target. I've always thought he used that to aim and direct his attacks, which is why you never seem him snap his fingers and make fire appear behind him, for example. I could be wrong though, as I'm just speaking from memory.

Another big thing I want to point out though is that the Avatar (either of them) has way more defensive capabilities than Roy does. Unlike Roy, they can actually block and disperse fire, and both Korra and Aang demonstrate the ability to do so very early on (and with different methods no less).

That's him being enraged, later in the Father fight he simply snaps and sends a huge wave of fire after him.

He also snaps before the flourish is done.

However, I'm not giving it to him based on movement speed, Fire benders can punch Fire at close enough to the same speed. It's more that his attacks can originate on target giving him speed advantage that way.

Bending originates near enough to the target that it's starting range, and speed, is sub sonic, and thus an attack that originates on point has to be given the advantage in this case.

The main problem with bending the fire is that it originates on point, and can be forced to originate INSIDE the targets eyes / mouth, preventing awareness of the attack barring pre cog, or other supernatural senses, and thus preventing rebending of the attack back in his direction.

And when we're basically playing Rocket Tag...

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 12:50 AM
The main problem with bending the fire is that it originates on point, and can be forced to originate INSIDE the targets eyes / mouth, preventing awareness of the attack barring pre cog, or other supernatural senses, and thus preventing rebending of the attack back in his direction.

Actually, at least in, say, this, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mhiYsD9Hi0&feature) Roy's attacks seem to require Line of Affect. He releases a Spark just before the attack goes off. And while it's borderline instantaneous, it's still a factor, even if minor. He doesn't seem to be able to just go "Hey, your tongue is gone". He has to get that split second spark from his snap that gets to the target's spot.

At the speed it moves at, it's basically a minor nit pick, but if anyone could survive, given that one chance of defending yourself from Mustang, it would be the Avatar.

If Roy could just will bombs into any spot in the enemy's body with absolutely no delay beyond the snap, then I'd not only give him the advantage against basic Aang, but against Avatar State Avatar, too... How the **** do you defend against a nuke inside your intestines?

AmberVael
2012-07-22, 12:54 AM
.... let your memory be refreshed. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mhiYsD9Hi0&feature=player_detailpage#t=420s)

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't see anything that contradicts me there. :smallconfused:


However, I'm not giving it to him based on movement speed, Fire benders can punch Fire at close enough to the same speed. It's more that his attacks can originate on target giving him speed advantage that way.
He can't do that. The spark always comes from his gloves or his lighter or some such- it always starts at his hands unless he's doing something weird. He can't exactly teleport the spark. Granted, the ignition process seems faster than firebending, but he doesn't just make conflagrations instantly on top of people- it's a fire that starts at his hands, and follows a path to his target.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 12:59 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't see anything that contradicts me there. :smallconfused:

Listen to the sound of those snaps, especially at the 7 minute mark. Each one of those is the launching of yet another grenade onto Envy. Each arm movement differs, but after a while he gets so worked up that he does several in the span of a few seconds, with really just the finger snap all that matters.

The arm movement and grandious jestures seem to be less part of the alchemy and more he's enjoying each bomb droped onto his hated enemy.


He can't do that. The spark always comes from his gloves or his lighter or some such- it always starts at his hands unless he's doing something weird. He can't exactly teleport the spark. Granted, the ignition process seems faster than firebending, but he doesn't just make conflagrations instantly on top of people- it's a fire that starts at his hands, and follows a path to his target.

Thank you for explaining this in a much more eloquent way than I seem to be able to.

Flickerdart
2012-07-22, 01:00 AM
Aang would win easily - Mustang being able to hit him first is rubbish, because as a primary airbender Aang's main thing is dodging, and he has enough skill with Earth to create barriers and Water to create a shield (at least in his Avatar State). Korra would probably run straight at him and then get blown up, then Avatar State and it's still pretty much over. If flame alchemy is treated as firebending, then both could use their own firebending to block the attacks.

However, the most important question is this: whose world does this take place in? Because if you recall, only two people ever actually get burned by fire. At all other times, it's just an explosion that throws people backwards.

Being able to use general Alchemy is useless in the fight unless Aang decides to hide and Roy has a moment to do something besides explosions.

TheSummoner
2012-07-22, 01:03 AM
I give it to Roy on the grounds of superior speed and the fact that the Avatar only has access to these elements...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Four_elements_representation.svg

Whereas Roy has access to these elements...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Periodic_table.svg

In terms of raw power, Roy would probably get stomped pretty bad, but he's got the knowledge and skill to turn that same power back against his opponent.

Nah, if Roy gets serious, you run. You'll still die, but with your back turned at the very least, you won't see it coming.

AmberVael
2012-07-22, 01:10 AM
Listen to the sound of those snaps, especially at the 7 minute mark. Each one of those is the launching of yet another grenade onto Envy. Each arm movement differs, but after a while he gets so worked up that he does several in the span of a few seconds, with really just the finger snap all that matters.

The arm movement and grandiose gestures seem to be less part of the alchemy and more he's enjoying each bomb dropped onto his hated enemy.

Oh. I wasn't listening to the sound (current computer has audio problems). Still, I do think there is something to be said about the way he gestures- I'm pretty sure it isn't entirely meaningless, else he wouldn't do so much of it, and he would have more versatility in where the flame was sent that I don't recall seeing from him.


If flame alchemy is treated as firebending, then both could use their own firebending to block the attacks.

Preeeetty sure firebenders can block and bend non-magical flames just as easily as opposing firebending. I mean, else it wouldn't be firebending at all. :smalltongue:

It's not that firebenders can block or ward away firebending, it's that they can block and ward away fire. If anything, blocking firebending would be harder.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 01:20 AM
Oh. I wasn't listening to the sound (current computer has audio problems).

The screaming is kinda disturbing, so that's a trade off.


Still, I do think there is something to be said about the way he gestures- I'm pretty sure it isn't entirely meaningless

It's meaning is pretty much "I'm turning Evil / Going Insane / Geting Off on how badly I'm ****ing burning you to death". He doesn't do any of it when fighting Lust. Just snaping the lighter several times.


and he would have more versatility in where the flame was sent that I don't recall seeing from him.

His opening move was lighting the foe's tongue on fire, and he immediately follows it by boiling the fluid of said foe's eyeballs... That's pretty damn versatile... and scary.


Preeeetty sure firebenders can block and bend non-magical flames just as easily as opposing firebending. I mean, else it wouldn't be firebending at all. :smalltongue:

It's not that firebenders can block or ward away firebending, it's that they can block and ward away fire. If anything, blocking firebending would be harder.

They can at least counter each other's bending...

So, this match seems like it's pretty much indeed Rocket Tag... with Roy having a pretty damn large Rocket. The Avatar probably can neutralise him easier, but -ONE- mistake, and Aang's Toast. Litterally.

TheSummoner
2012-07-22, 01:29 AM
Preeeetty sure firebenders can block and bend non-magical flames just as easily as opposing firebending. I mean, else it wouldn't be firebending at all. :smalltongue:

It's not that firebenders can block or ward away firebending, it's that they can block and ward away fire. If anything, blocking firebending would be harder.

2 Minutes. 45 Seconds. I would really like to see someone block, ward, or redirect that.

No time to react. No flame trail. The fire originated IN ENVY'S EYES. It wasn't there one second. It was the next.

At 4 minutes and 3 seconds, he does it again under Envy's feet.

Flickerdart
2012-07-22, 01:29 AM
I give it to Roy on the grounds of superior speed and the fact that the Avatar only has access to these elements...


Whereas Roy has access to these elements...
Where do you see "enough time to draw an intricate circle diagram in a tense combat situation" on the periodic table?

TheSummoner
2012-07-22, 01:31 AM
Where do you see "enough time to draw an intricate circle diagram in a tense combat situation" on the periodic table?

Roy has been through the gate of truth. He don't need no stinking circles. =P

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 01:32 AM
Where do you see "enough time to draw an intricate circle diagram in a tense combat situation" on the periodic table?

Depends. What element is "Cloth Glove that has the Intricate Circle Diagram already inscribed on it" composed of?


Roy has been through the gate of truth. He don't need no stinking circles. =P

Do we need to involve the Gate of Truth? Do we really even know how that thing works? It's like freaking Eva's Instrunmentality thing... or FLCL.

Fan
2012-07-22, 01:38 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't see anything that contradicts me there. :smallconfused:


He can't do that. The spark always comes from his gloves or his lighter or some such- it always starts at his hands unless he's doing something weird. He can't exactly teleport the spark. Granted, the ignition process seems faster than firebending, but he doesn't just make conflagrations instantly on top of people- it's a fire that starts at his hands, and follows a path to his target.

Check 1 minute 30 seconds. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2mhiYsD9Hi0#t=89s)

Fire erupts FROM envy's eyes. This happens again at 3:10 (hhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mhiYsD9Hi0&feature=player_detailpage#t=187s)

The snaps' are generally near enough to instant that it's just faster than even lightning bending has shown to be, in terms of activation, speed of coming towards it's target, and ability to preform a Killing Blow.

The "spark" on his glove in the same electric spark we see in all instances of usage of alchemy as well, so that can be ruled out, and this wouldn't be the first time ranged alchemy has happened.

TheSummoner
2012-07-22, 01:46 AM
Do we need to involve the Gate of Truth? Do we really even know how that thing works? It's like freaking Eva's Instrunmentality thing... or FLCL.

We know that if you go through it, you can perform alchemy without the need to use transmutation circles. Roy has gone through it. Roy does not need circles. Water becomes hydrogen and oxygen becomes a bomb and it's just a single hand clap away.

Flickerdart
2012-07-22, 01:48 AM
Roy has been through the gate of truth. He don't need no stinking circles. =P
Actually, even a cursory reading of the rules for this versus would tell you that Roy has not seen the Gate for the purposes of this encounter.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 01:53 AM
The "spark" on his glove in the same electric spark we see in all instances of usage of alchemy as well, so that can be ruled out, and this wouldn't be the first time ranged alchemy has happened.

Actually, it can't be ruled out. It's the spark from the gloves that makes the flame alchemy actually happen. In a sense, Roy's just Air Bending. The explosions come from the sparks in question.

Check when you see the explosions appear (rather than when it just shows the explosion, like when Roy burns off Envy's Tongue, and both times he blows up his Eyes). You see where the flames are about to appear, just before the force of the explosion actually begins.

Slightly related: Mahou Sensei Negima. When Negi and Rakan are fighting, and Negi's in his first Super Mode. His attacks cause him to telegraph where he's about to go, as he travels as Lightning. It's a bit like that.

TheSummoner
2012-07-22, 01:54 AM
Actually, even a cursory reading of the rules for this versus would tell you that Roy has not seen the Gate for the purposes of this encounter.

*shrug* fair enough. I guess that's what I get for just double checking the top part (above the picture) before mentioning it.

Still doesn't stop him from snapping his fingers and incinerating the Avatar's brain. Envy only lasted as long as he did for two reasons.

1) The ability to literally regenerate from the dead so long as the philosopher stone inside him has enough power.

2) Roy wanted him to suffer.


Actually, it can't be. It's the spark from the gloves that makes the flame alchemy actually happen. In a sense, Roy's just Air Bending. The explosions come from the sparks in question.

Check when you see the explosions appear (rather than when it just shows the explosion, like when Roy burns off Envy's Tongue, and both times he blows up his Eyes). You see where the flames are about to appear, just before the force of the explosion actually begins.

Slightly related: Mahou Sensei Negima. When Negi and Rakan are fighting, and Negi's in his first Super Mode. His attacks cause him to telegraph where he's about to go, as he travels as Lightning. It's a bit like that.

Any spark or source of flame would do, really. Roy just uses the gloves for convenience.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 01:58 AM
Still doesn't stop him from snapping his fingers and incinerating the Avatar's brain. Envy only lasted as long as he did for two reasons.

1) The ability to literally regenerate from the dead so long as the philosopher stone inside him has enough power.

2) Roy wanted him to suffer.

First of all, it's 3 reasons. FMAB's writer wanted to scare us all.

And second, he can't do dirrect lobotomies! He can freaking get close, though...


Any spark or source of flame would do, really. Roy just uses the gloves for convenience.

And badass points, but my point remains valid; his primary alchemy relies on manipulating the air, and then using a heat source to ignite that air.

Fan
2012-07-22, 01:59 AM
Actually, it can't be ruled out. It's the spark from the gloves that makes the flame alchemy actually happen. In a sense, Roy's just Air Bending. The explosions come from the sparks in question.

Check when you see the explosions appear (rather than when it just shows the explosion, like when Roy burns off Envy's Tongue, and both times he blows up his Eyes). You see where the flames are about to appear, just before the force of the explosion actually begins.

Slightly related: Mahou Sensei Negima. When Negi and Rakan are fighting, and Negi's in his first Super Mode. His attacks cause him to telegraph where he's about to go, as he travels as Lightning. It's a bit like that.

At single frame speeds, that still makes it faster than a car going down the highway (Given it moves AT LEAST 10 meters in the frame of that single frame that puts it at 89.745 miles per hour, faster than anything in avatar by a good measure.).

Given a standard frame rate of 25 FPS (unless we use 1080i from the higher quality blu rays which makes it 60 frames a second.), we can roughly equate it to covering the distance in 0.25th of a second. For an explanation of my math.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 02:03 AM
At single frame speeds, that still makes it faster than a car going down the highway (Given it moves AT LEAST 10 meters in the frame of that single frame that puts it at 89.745 miles per hour, faster than anything in avatar by a good measure.).

Given a standard frame rate of 25 FPS (unless we use 1080i from the higher quality blu rays which makes it 60 frames a second.), we can roughly equate it to covering the distance in 0.25th of a second. For an explanation of my math.

Completely true, and I believe I admited that it's a very minor nit pick, and the only reason why people can be slightly justified in believing the Avatar stands a chance.

Not-Completely-But-Still-Almost-Instant-Bombs-On-Command-At-Sniper-Grade-Targeting is very strong.

TheSummoner
2012-07-22, 02:07 AM
First of all, it's 3 reasons. FMAB's writer wanted to scare us all.

And second, he can't do dirrect lobotomies! He can freaking get close, though...

Of course not, he has to go through the eye (or just the head in general) first.

No one ever said the lobotomy had to be direct. :smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 02:08 AM
Completely true, and I believe I admited that it's a very minor nit pick, and the only reason why people can be slightly justified in believing the Avatar stands a chance.

Not-Completely-But-Still-Almost-Instant-Bombs-On-Command-At-Sniper-Grade-Targeting is very strong.
Roy one trick he does very well, while avatar has many tricks he also does quite well.
If his gloves get wet because, oh he got splashed by some water bending, he is at a serious disadvantage.

TheSummoner
2012-07-22, 02:10 AM
Roy one trick he does very well, while avatar has many tricks he also does quite well.
If his gloves get wet because, oh he got splashed by some water bending, he is at a serious disadvantage.

And how is the Avatar going to do that fast enough? Lust managed it by cutting a pipe more or less directly above him. Scar got lucky that it was raining.

They're starting 50 feet apart. Plenty of time for Roy to dodge, turn the water into a bomb (what with all the gesturing required for bending) or just deliver a clean kill-shot.

Xondoure
2012-07-22, 02:13 AM
I'm going to say if they both have prior knowledge Aang wins, if not Mustang. This because a fully realized avatar would go in eyes a glowing with a wind shield so the oxygen trick wouldn't work. Avatar state then has a thousand and one ways to finish this new Fire Lord.

Trouble is without his defenses already up before the encounter Aang is dead.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 02:15 AM
Of course not, he has to go through the eye (or just the head in general) first.

No one ever said the lobotomy had to be direct. :smallbiggrin:

.... ****, I've spent all night looking up FMA. I'm not going to be able to sleep right without crying for the next few days...


Roy one trick he does very well, while avatar has many tricks he also does quite well.

Considering he's able to manipulate every element on the table, even if he prefers his main combat form, Roy is not the Fighter in this scenario. Hell, this isn't a "Wizard vs Fighter" situation. It is more Sorcerer vs Dragon Fire Adept if anything. And the DFA seems to have a higher initiative than the Sorcerer.


If his gloves get wet because, oh he got splashed by some water bending, he is at a serious disadvantage.

Or he uses a lighter, or a second glove, and continues roasting... and that's assuming he didn't turn the Water into Explosives. Because he totally can.


http://fma.wikia.com/wiki/Roy_Mustang#Flame_Alchemy

While Mustang's Flame Alchemy cannot be used on rainy days because the humidity makes it impossible for his gloves to produce sparks, it becomes clear that water itself does not make the Colonel entirely as "useless" as his subordinates assume. Using the transmutation circles on his gloves, Roy is able to separate hydrogen atoms from the oxygen atoms in water molecules, isolating them into a highly combustible fuel and powerfully volatile oxidizer, respectively. Though this method can only be used when a large quantity of water is present in a relatively closed-off space (and not in the rain where the air is open and separating hydrogen and oxygen for the purpose of combustion would pose far too much danger to anyone in the vicinity), with an outside source of ignition such as a cigarette lighter or a match, Roy can produce extremely powerful, localized explosions.

So yeah, it really is a matter of Initiative.... and considering how fast he moves once it is his chance to hit, my money's definitely on Roy. Avatar Mode is the only thing that even keeps Aang in the running for this.

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 02:27 AM
.

Considering he's able to manipulate every element on the table, even if he prefers his main combat form, Roy is not the Fighter in this scenario. Hell, this isn't a "Wizard vs Fighter" situation. It is more Sorcerer vs Dragon Fire Adept if anything. And the DFA seems to have a higher initiative than the Sorcerer.
Sure, he can, but drawing a circle takes a significant period of time, during which he is being attacked by all four classical elements.



Or he uses a lighter, or a second glove, and continues roasting... and that's assuming he didn't turn the Water into Explosives. Because he totally can.

I believe the Time Frame described he hasn't gated yet. a light or dry spare glove would potentially work, but would take time to draw such items. Not as much as drawing a transmutation circle, but given the speed this combat is taken place at, it still puts him at a disadvantage.

Fan
2012-07-22, 02:31 AM
This is assuming Aang can get water bending off at all.

We are talking 0.25 seconds, faster than any bending shown in avatar.

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 02:39 AM
This is assuming Aang can get water bending off at all.

We are talking 0.25 seconds, faster than any bending shown in avatar.
That's probably a good point if true, I haven't done the level of analysis necessary to determine bending times.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 02:40 AM
Sure, he can, but drawing a circle takes a significant period of time, during which he is being attacked by all four classical elements.

Are you refering to Avatar Mode Avatar Aang? Or just Avatar Aang? Because I don't think I've ever seen him use multiple elements at the exact same time outside of the Avatar Mode.

And unless Aang can get a dirrect hit with Earthbending Spikes or Firebending... Fire, I don't see the Glove being Ruined, so he doesn't have to worry too much about the Circle, at least for Combat Purposes.


I believe the Time Frame described he hasn't gated yet. a light or dry spare glove would potentially work, but would take time to draw such items. Not as much as drawing a transmutation circle, but given the speed this combat is taken place at, it still puts him at a disadvantage.

Considering all he needs to do is reach into his pocket and strike a switch on the lighter or light a match match to, within about half of a second, immediately drop a bomb infront of the Avatar's face, he can probably afford it while he's dodging, and that assume he gets hit in the first place, rather than releasing massive plumbs of fire to keep from getting wet at all.

Xondoure
2012-07-22, 02:43 AM
This is assuming Aang can get water bending off at all.

We are talking 0.25 seconds, faster than any bending shown in avatar.

There has been reflexive bending by Toph and Katara that could rival those speeds. Tremor sense gives an edge in initiative that's hard to beat. The question is whether they would recognize finger snapping as instant death. Otherwise attacking Roy's balance and preventing him from aiming his shots well is the Avatar's best shot.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 02:47 AM
There has been reflexive bending by Toph and Katara that could rival those speeds.

...not that I don't believe it, but I would like to see that. Because it was probably awesome.


Tremor sense gives an edge in initiative that's hard to beat. The question is whether they would recognize finger snapping as instant death.

The more both people know about each other, the more the fight favors the Avatar, and even then it's a bit of a quick-draw.


Otherwise attacking Roy's balance and preventing him from aiming his shots well is the Avatar's best shot.

Certainly not an easy feat... nor a favorable one.

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 02:51 AM
Are you refering to Avatar Mode Avatar Aang? Or just Avatar Aang? Because I don't think I've ever seen him use multiple elements at the exact same time outside of the Avatar Mode.

And unless Aang can get a dirrect hit with Earthbending Spikes or Firebending... Fire, I don't see the Glove being Ruined, so he doesn't have to worry too much about the Circle, at least for Combat Purposes.

Spark gloves don't work in the rain, therefore they don't work when wet. Also. at the same time isn't necessary, serial switching works dandy given how long a transmutation circle takes.

A
Considering all he needs to do is reach into his pocket and strike a switch on the lighter or light a match match to, within about half of a second, immediately drop a bomb infront of the Avatar's face, he can probably afford it while he's dodging, and that assume he gets hit in the first place, rather than releasing massive plumbs of fire to keep from getting wet at all.
Water has a huge ability to absorb heat energy. Even if he can put out enough to 'avoid getting wet', that just means he is enveloped in a huge cloud of steam, which not only limits visibility but also has a tendency to give very bad scalds, very fast.
And what if Aang goes for a rock enclosure? Blowing himself out would blow him up to or at least kill him from the pressure.

Xondoure
2012-07-22, 03:28 AM
...not that I don't believe it, but I would like to see that. Because it was probably awesome.



The more both people know about each other, the more the fight favors the Avatar, and even then it's a bit of a quick-draw.



Certainly not an easy feat... nor a favorable one.

Well the lead up takes longer but the actual attack we see the very first time Toph strikes against the Boulder. In the time it takes for him to put his foot down she's manipulated the earth to throw off his stance.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 03:28 AM
Spark gloves don't work in the rain, therefore they don't work when wet. Also. at the same time isn't necessary, serial switching works dandy given how long a transmutation circle takes.

Actually, the Glove is still useful when wet, since it has the Transmutation Circle on it. Remember, Roy's firebomb technique has 2 parts:

First, using the Circle and Alchemy to modify the air around the target point to be able to be blown up.

And then, using a heat source to ignite that air, making the firebomb.

The glove handles both purposes when dry, being an easy Transmutation Circle and being snapable to produce the spark. When wet, it still handles Alchemy, just requiring a heat source, like an easily strikable match or lighter, and generates the same affect. Not to mention the alchemy he can use sources of water with, as dangerous as it is.


Water has a huge ability to absorb heat energy. Even if he can put out enough to 'avoid getting wet', that just means he is enveloped in a huge cloud of steam, which not only limits visibility but also has a tendency to give very bad scalds, very fast.

Roy's burned his own wounds shut to keep from bleeding to death. Scalds are probably the least of his concerns. Not to mention, depending on how fast, and we've definitely proven Roy's attacks go lightning, if not instantly, fast, Roy attacks Aang while Aang's still getting the bending going, these issues are just as likely to affect the Avatar as it is the Flame Alchemist.


And what if Aang goes for a rock enclosure? Blowing himself out would blow him up to or at least kill him from the pressure.

While Aang's certainly much more likely to be moving fast, what's Roy doing in the time it would take for Aang to seal Roy in rock, exactly? I doubt he'd just be standing there...


Well the lead up takes longer but the actual attack we see the very first time Toph strikes against the Boulder. In the time it takes for him to put his foot down she's manipulated the earth to throw off his stance.

.... now I really do want to see it for the sake of this conversation, rather than curiosity. Remember, it takes Roy a Finger Snap to start the attack, and litterally a blink for the bomb to go off. If the lead up doesn't beat a twitch, then someone's still eating explosion.

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 03:39 AM
Actually, the Glove is still useful when wet, since it has the Transmutation Circle on it. Remember, Roy's firebomb technique has 2 parts:

First, using the Circle and Alchemy to modify the air around the target point to be able to be blown up.

And then, using a heat source to ignite that air, making the firebomb.

The glove handles both purposes when dry, being an easy Transmutation Circle and being snapable to produce the spark. When wet, it still handles Alchemy, just requiring a heat source, like an easily strikable match or lighter, and generates the same affect. Not to mention the alchemy he can use sources of water with, as dangerous as it is.


Which also rarely work when wet. You ever tried to light a wt match? Doesn't work so hot. The water acts as an unwanted lubricant as wel; as coolant. Wet lighters could be similar.



Roy's burned his own wounds shut to keep from bleeding to death. Scalds are probably the least of his concerns. Not to mention, depending on how fast, and we've definitely proven Roy's attacks go lightning, if not instantly, fast, Roy attacks Aang while Aang's still getting the bending going, these issues are just as likely to affect the Avatar as it is the Flame Alchemist. That's a very local application, and shows he isn't immune to flame. I've scalded myself fairly badly just from the steam from a kettle, feeling your flesh cook is an unpleasant sensation; I don't want to imagine what being surrounded by a cloud of it would do.



While Aang's certainly much more likely to be moving fast, what's Roy doing in the time it would take for Aang to seal Roy in rock, exactly? I doubt he'd just be standing there...
I'm not saying it's a sure win, but I ask what can he do? He could resort to more complex alchemy, but in the dark, that's not going to be easy.

Xondoure
2012-07-22, 03:44 AM
Roy's just dramatic enough to give Toph Aang time.

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 03:50 AM
Roy's just dramatic enough to give Toph Aang time.
Yeah, Roy "Tiny Mini-Skirts" Mustang is rather a drama queen at times.:smallbiggrin:

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 03:53 AM
Which also rarely work when wet. You ever tried to light a wt match? Doesn't work so hot. The water acts as an unwanted lubricant as wel; as coolant. Wet lighters could be similar.

They do have Match Cases... although I can't say the same for Lighters. There's probably something for that kind of thing.


That's a very local application, and shows he isn't immune to flame. I've scalded myself fairly badly just from the steam from a kettle, feeling your flesh cook is an unpleasant sensation; I don't want to imagine what being surrounded by a cloud of it would do.

Such things apply to the Avatar as well, do they not?


I'm not saying it's a sure win, but I ask what can he do? He could resort to more complex alchemy, but in the dark, that's not going to be easy.

How does Roy get automatically entoombed without having launched several attacks at the Avatar already? A lot of your points seem to start on the basis that Roy begins at a disadvantage... what happens when the two of them meet on a rock bridge over a river, immediately drawing on each other?

Aang takes a second to work up a Fireball or Wind Burst, or to begin trying to pound Rock from the ground or whip Water from the sides. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slWPNDEWeLo&feature=related)

Roy snaps his finger and makes Aang's tongue liquify. And no, that's not overstating anything; that was his opening move against Envy.

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 04:08 AM
They do have Match Cases... although I can't say the same for Lighters. There's probably something for that kind of thing.
Stored in paper or cardboard cases. Yeah, great waterp rotection that.


Such things apply to the Avatar as well, do they not?

Not really. Earth bending could block fire just as well, if not better, than water.


How does Roy get automatically entoombed without having launched several attacks at the Avatar already? A lot of your points seem to start on the basis that Roy begins at a disadvantage... what happens when the two of them meet on a rock bridge over a river, immediately drawing on each other?

Aang takes a second to work up a Fireball or Wind Burst, or to begin trying to pound Rock from the ground or whip Water from the sides. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slWPNDEWeLo&feature=related)

Roy snaps his finger and makes Aang's tongue liquify. And no, that's not overstating anything; that was his opening move against Envy.

I'm not saying Roy 'automatically' has anything happen to him, but Aang has a lot more tricks don't take time to doodle.
That is my point.
Edit: Aw screwth this, you win. I'm too tired to do two arguments at once.
Have a nice day.:smallsmile:

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 04:18 AM
I believe you messed up your quote about the match cases thing, and they probably wouldn't keep selling them if they weren't capable of being used.


Not really. Earth bending could block fire just as well, if not better, than water.

It doesn't get nearly as much in the way of what is essentially Sniper-Grade Accurate Airbent Bombs as water can, though. Roy's got both pin-point shots and standard bursts of flames.


I'm not saying Roy 'automatically' has anything happen to him, but Aang has a lot more tricks don't take time to doodle.
That is my point.

Roy's main trick, having been useful against even his series' God level enemy (as well as being the most dangerous tool used in the Avatar as well), ie making you melt, doesn't require any time from him.

He doesn't seem to be shown going anywhere without his gloves or back up heat sources, none of which are inconvenient at all, and there's been very few things to ever force him from them.

There's litterally not much to say about an instant headshot-grenade.

And actually, even Aang's tremor sense and earth-bending hold, as seen in his fight against the firelord, required far more time than a simple finger snap... so....


Edit: Aw screwth this, you win. I'm too tired to do two arguments at once.
Have a nice day.:smallsmile:

I would, except I have to go to work in 40 minutes... and I haven't slept at all because of this conversation... I guess it's a Pyrric victory for me, then.

Ravens_cry
2012-07-22, 05:48 AM
I would, except I have to go to work in 40 minutes... and I haven't slept at all because of this conversation... I guess it's a Pyrric victory for me, then.
I would gloat mercilessly, but I'm pretty much in the same boat.

Ramza00
2012-07-22, 08:12 AM
Roy has been through the gate of truth. He don't need no stinking circles. =P
I purposefully limited the gate of truth in the rules. For with the gate of truth or philosophers stones there is no stopping Roy. He can transmute a metal box around the avatar with just a hand clap, and then use the box to crush the avatar instantly, or he can just remove all the oxygen, or he can replace the oxygen with poisonous gas, or make the box be filled with acid or bleach and burn the avatar, etc.

Pretty much with the gate of truth or philosopher stones one side would have no chance against the other.

MLai
2012-07-22, 08:57 AM
All this stats debate on what Roy can and can't do seems to forget one thing: Fire does not burn a firebender.

Who cares if Roy can burn the tongue of someone who can't control fire? We don't need to involve the Avatar (Avatar State or no Avatar State). Zuko and Iroh can BREATHE FIRE. They can have fire coming out of their NOSTRILS fcol.

Firebenders are NEVER burnt by fire. Because as long as they're conscious, their passive bending protects them. The only time when ppl were burnt?
(1) Katara, who is not a firebender.
(2) Kid Zuko, who was ****ting his pants against his Dad, so obviously not doing any bending passive or active.

"How about the explosive force?" That depends on 1 thing in the Combustion Man episode (I don't remember too much from it): Was Zuko there?

Devonix
2012-07-22, 08:59 AM
Avatar's have the advantage in versitility and manuverability. AKA Flight and moving through walls and ground. make it hard to track in a battle.

Unluss Mustang goes for point blank shots first it's over for him. if you can track and move to intercept lightning you can track and intercept any launced fire attacks by mustang and he needsline of sight on you for all his attacks.

Traab
2012-07-22, 10:25 AM
I would have to give the pre avatar edge to roy. Roy is a soldier, he is a killer, he has what it takes to snap his fingers and just flat out turn you to ash. Aang? Not so much. Plus, there is the aim factor. Roy can make your face catch fire spontaneously, aang has to fling fire at you from his own arms/legs/whatever. You cant dodge your face catching on fire through your opponents pure will, you CAN dodge a ball of flame/air/water/earth.

In the show duel between Ed and Roy, Roy was literally playing with him, setting off explosions just far enough away to dodge, or with just enough warning to avoid the worst of it. He wont be doing that with aang, (if he is smart, im not saying he couldnt play with the idiot ball a bit) At best I see aang having to hope roy doesnt go for the insta kill, and gives him enough clues to go for the gloves. Assuming that doesnt end the same way as the show duel on FMA, "I do have a second glove you know." /BOOM! But yeah, even if both went for the kill right off, Roy can dodge the giant fireball heading for his face, aang cant dodge his face spontaneously igniting.

Avatar state is different. I honestly dont know what limits that places on his speed, reaction time, control over the elements he isnt summoning, whatever. I dont know if /snap, /face explodes would still work, or if it would be blocked due to the avatars raw control.

*EDIT* I believe others have mentioned that aang should be somewhat immune to fire as a fire bender? It isnt the fire thats so dangerous, its the pressure wave of the explosion. Even if the fire doesnt do squat to aang, the sudden several hundred gforces centralized inside his skull will obliterate his brain, and likely reduce his skull to dust.

tyckspoon
2012-07-22, 11:45 AM
Avatar state is different. I honestly dont know what limits that places on his speed, reaction time, control over the elements he isnt summoning, whatever. I dont know if /snap, /face explodes would still work, or if it would be blocked due to the avatars raw control.

I give the Avatar State fight to Aang (possibly not Korra, since we haven't seen her actually fighting with the Avatar State and we don't know if she'd handle it as well.) The Avatar's main weakness appears to be the time it takes to Bend normally; Mustang's attack is much quicker, which puts him in control of the fight.

But Bending doesn't actually *require* the movement- if you're good enough, you can do it with no more motion than it takes to breath or even mentally (see Bumi, Iroh, *Korra Spoilers*.) And the Avatar State is not only good enough to do that, it can do it with all four elements at once. So Avatar State Aang can maintain a constant defensive flow of air and/or water while striking out at the same time with the remaining 2-3. Which presents Mustang with a problem, because as far as I know his perceptions and reaction time are still only human- it's only his attack form that happens that quick. So he has to deal with figuring out how to attack the Avatar State while also trying to counter-fire or dodge two or three different kinds of attack coming from different angles. For lack of a better word, the Avatar State can simply multitask Mustang into defeat. (And that's not involving the overwhelming raw power Avatar State could lean on if it had to- a less pacifistic Avatar wouldn't have many qualms about tossing Mustang into an F5 tornado or dropping a hill on him, and I don't think there's much of anything he can do about that without getting into Gate-enhanced instant alchemy.)

TheSummoner
2012-07-22, 12:01 PM
*EDIT* I believe others have mentioned that aang should be somewhat immune to fire as a fire bender? It isnt the fire thats so dangerous, its the pressure wave of the explosion. Even if the fire doesnt do squat to aang, the sudden several hundred gforces centralized inside his skull will obliterate his brain, and likely reduce his skull to dust.

I think the only quote that as much as hinted at that is this...


All this stats debate on what Roy can and can't do seems to forget one thing: Fire does not burn a firebender.

Who cares if Roy can burn the tongue of someone who can't control fire? We don't need to involve the Avatar (Avatar State or no Avatar State). Zuko and Iroh can BREATHE FIRE. They can have fire coming out of their NOSTRILS fcol.

Firebenders are NEVER burnt by fire. Because as long as they're conscious, their passive bending protects them. The only time when ppl were burnt?
(1) Katara, who is not a firebender.
(2) Kid Zuko, who was ****ting his pants against his Dad, so obviously not doing any bending passive or active.

"How about the explosive force?" That depends on 1 thing in the Combustion Man episode (I don't remember too much from it): Was Zuko there?

And I have to disagree with it. The only evidence for it that was given in this thread is that they have the ability to breathe fire.

Just because they can breathe fire does not make them immune to being burned by it. It just means that they have a high enough degree of control that they can use it without burning themselves in the process. Nothing about says they can't be burned by fire that isn't direcly under their control.

Nah, the only way the Avatar even survives the encounter is if Roy doesn't shoot to kill. If for some reason Roy wanted him alive or was opposed to killing him. And even if Roy initially went in not wanting to kill, he wouldn't hold back if things escalated to the point where it was kill or die.

endoperez
2012-07-22, 12:35 PM
In-universe, the professional, firebending soldier with no qualms about killing, and ability to nearly instantaneously channel powerful fire attacks, isn't able to kill Aang but can drive him running away.
Doesn't anyone else remember poor Sparky Sparky Boom Man?

SSBM's fast and powerful attacks were difficult to handle, and when Aang tried to retaliate he blasted through the rock, ice, whatever the attack happened to be. Roy doesn't have as good of a defense. So, if his first attack won't work, he will be retaliated upon.

IIRC, Avatar Spirit site doesn't allow hotlinking, so here's links to the sequence in "The Beach" where Aang uses airbending to redirect fire/heat/explosion away from him, nearly instantly. He just jumps into air and straightens his arm.
http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/atla/305/618.jpg
http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/atla/305/619.jpg
http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/atla/305/622.jpg

Aang could probably detect "airbending" attacks and react to them as if they were visible. As such, he could start defending against Roy's blast before his skin was on fire. Korra probably couldn't.

Firebenders have some way of surviving while surrounded by flame or fire. See Jeong Jeong the deserter.

http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/atla/116/698.jpg
http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/atla/116/699.jpg
http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/atla/116/700.jpg

His trick did seem to take some windup, and we don't know how it worked, exactly, but I'd say that the Avatar State can use something similar to survive inside a seemingly certain, flaming death.

Now if we knew how people defend against airbending attacks in the avatarverse we could decide if Aang could notice Roy's "oxygen-bending" and have the time to react.

Ramza00
2012-07-22, 01:29 PM
All this stats debate on what Roy can and can't do seems to forget one thing: Fire does not burn a firebender.

Who cares if Roy can burn the tongue of someone who can't control fire? We don't need to involve the Avatar (Avatar State or no Avatar State). Zuko and Iroh can BREATHE FIRE. They can have fire coming out of their NOSTRILS fcol.

Firebenders are NEVER burnt by fire. Because as long as they're conscious, their passive bending protects them. The only time when ppl were burnt?
(1) Katara, who is not a firebender.
(2) Kid Zuko, who was ****ting his pants against his Dad, so obviously not doing any bending passive or active.

"How about the explosive force?" That depends on 1 thing in the Combustion Man episode (I don't remember too much from it): Was Zuko there?

Not true
If fire can not hurt a firebender why would fire lord sozin attain avatar roku who was a firebender, furthermore how would you lose an agni kai if firebenders can not harm each other. Commander zhao lost against zhao and was expecting fierce pain or death due to the loss.

Fan
2012-07-22, 01:32 PM
There has been reflexive bending by Toph and Katara that could rival those speeds. Tremor sense gives an edge in initiative that's hard to beat. The question is whether they would recognize finger snapping as instant death. Otherwise attacking Roy's balance and preventing him from aiming his shots well is the Avatar's best shot.

Please show anything that is single frame fast between initiation of bending, and striking of target.

Nothing in avatar is that fast, not even Lightning Bending, or Sparky Sparky Boom Guy's explosion technique, OR Blood Bending.

Even the links provided are not 0.25 seconds fast.

As for Aang being able to counter Mustang. I'm gonna have to say no, Aang can manipulate Air, whilist Mustang manipulates things on an atomic level, in his field of choice I'd give it to Mustang for simply manipulating things on a finer, more controlled, scale whilist demonstrating similar power.

Also fire does burn firebenders.

Case in point.



http://static.tumblr.com/wsbrly7/oy4lojead/pz.jpg



One of the main characters.

There is literally no basis for them not being burnt by fire, they just aren't in the habit of showing horrible burn wounds, or even actually drawing blood in Avatar.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-22, 02:13 PM
I would gloat mercilessly, but I'm pretty much in the same boat.

In that case, I salute you on very well thought out and well inforced arguments, and a discussion well played.


I purposefully limited the gate of truth in the rules. For with the gate of truth or philosophers stones there is no stopping Roy. He can transmute a metal box around the avatar with just a hand clap, and then use the box to crush the avatar instantly, or he can just remove all the oxygen, or he can replace the oxygen with poisonous gas, or make the box be filled with acid or bleach and burn the avatar, etc.

Pretty much with the gate of truth or philosopher stones one side would have no chance against the other.

Really, we shouldn't argue either the Gate of Truth or Philosopher Stones, nor the Avatar State. Both are Deus Ex Machina grade power ups that either character, admitedly the AS easier gained thatn GoT or PS, could use to pretty much dominate everything. Not to mention the exact level of power gained is somewhat nebulous...


All this stats debate on what Roy can and can't do seems to forget one thing: Fire does not burn a firebender.

.... thank you for a very good laugh. I'm not being offensive, but it was worth a good laugh..

Nothing else that builds off of this point was even considered worth responding to, so please remind me if I ignored anything important.

Fire doesn't burn a Firebender, huh? Two thoughts come to mind:

1: Does the Avatar count as a Firebender, or just a Air/Water/whatevernativebender they are, for this conversation? Assuming this was even true at all.

And 2: If the Avatar can't be hurt by Fire, why was Aang running from the Fire Lord at all? Why was that fight -anything- but a complete and total curb stomp for Team Avatar?

The idea that a Firebender can't be hurt by fire is about as novel as the idea that an Earth Bender couldn't be crushed by rock, or an Air Bender pushed by a Hurricane, or a Water Bender drowned in a flood; it sounds -incredibly- silly at first, but it makes logical sense.

These people aren't Elementals, they just control them. They aren't made of the element, and they aren't invunerable to it. They can just manipulate it.


Avatar's have the advantage in versitility and manuverability. AKA Flight and moving through walls and ground. make it hard to track in a battle.

Unluss Mustang goes for point blank shots first it's over for him. if you can track and move to intercept lightning you can track and intercept any launced fire attacks by mustang and he needsline of sight on you for all his attacks.

The thing is, it's not just Lightning in the main series; it's essentially Lightning flavored Firebending. You can see in the video I posted earlier; since the Lightning isn't just a Flash and a chared body, it's not really too much more of an accomplishment to dodge a Firebender's Lightning rather than Fire.

Roy, on the other hand, actually can attack in practically an instant. His bursts do strike like Lightning.

I agree that the Avatar's going to be hell at a distance, where he'd have a bit more time to defend himself, and can have active defenses up while being a threat still. It would depend a bit more on where and how the fight started. The more even and plain the circumstances, without prior knowledge and such, the more Roy would be able to end it decisively. But the more prepared the foes would be for such an assault, the more likely it slides into the Avatar's favor. Although Roy would hardly be helpless, since it's not like he's limited by distance, while the Avatar's attacks would be futher telegraphed by his movements and the path each element would need to take....

I'd vote for Roy. The Avatar never inforced Tiny Miniskirts... :smallfrown:


I But Bending doesn't actually *require* the movement- if you're good enough, you can do it with no more motion than it takes to breath or even mentally (see Bumi, Iroh, *Korra Spoilers*.)

I ignored the part about the Avatar state because, as noted above, it and the Gate are both somewhat outlierish to a standard fight against the two, even if both are capable of them, with the AS being far more natural. And if included, one easily lets the user claim victory.

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, with the Korra Spoilers character, the bending in question is not only capable of being resisted when done just entally, but still seemed to require a bit of triggering, even if just a mental action. So that level of bending, assuming the Avatar even capable of it (not the type, but the activation) would still come down to a quick draw: a mental focus vs a finger snap.

When have Bumi or Iroh done instantaneous bending without any gesturing or such? Certainly never seen Aang do it, even in the Avatar State...

endoperez, your pics are forbidden to me... and that makes me sad...

Also, I see I had some posts after I started writing... but nothing said disproves or goes against anything I've said (and agreed with), so I guess I don't need to comment. :smallbiggrin:

AmberVael
2012-07-22, 02:22 PM
It's meaning is pretty much "I'm turning Evil / Going Insane / Geting Off on how badly I'm ****ing burning you to death". He doesn't do any of it when fighting Lust. Just snaping the lighter several times.
Actually, in his fight against lust he follows precisely the guidelines I was giving before.
Check it out. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enyipxV6ds0)
Every time you see him use his flame alchemy (at around 28 seconds, 45 seconds, 1 minute, etc etc) he is at minimum pointing his arm directly at Lust, which is one of the conditions I stated, and it is a very important thing to note. Now that I've gotten a chance to look at it, he follows this rule in fighting the Father too.

Just for absolute clarity, I'm not saying he has to wave his arms around wildly like he does against Envy. Just that at minimum, he has to point his arms towards his target. My exact line on that subject was:
"The only time he doesn't seem to move his arm before "snapping" is when he's already directly pointing it at a target."

Because of this, there is a lot more chance for someone to actually do something against him. If he has to aim, then dodging and moving and weaving (abilities benders show quite some skill at, particularly airbenders) will make it far more possible to deal with his attacks. It also helps in knowing when a fire alchemy attack is coming.

Reacting to an arm thrust forward and fire shooting from it sounds a lot like what benders deal with all the time, though the speed his fire moves is faster than normal, granted.


His opening move was lighting the foe's tongue on fire, and he immediately follows it by boiling the fluid of said foe's eyeballs... That's pretty damn versatile... and scary.
Oh, not debating that. I'm talking about not having to making aiming style gestures. At minimum, he seems to have to point his hand at someone, generally with his arm fully extended. I don't recall seeing him ignite a fire behind him, or to one side, or with his hands at his sides. Something like that would discount what I'm saying here for sure.


On the subject of firebenders being immune to fire, I think that's overstating, but they do of course have the ability to block, disperse, and otherwise work against it. Also, I am fairly certain that benders in general are pretty good at absorbing elemental attacks, but I can't find the source for it. Just think of it this way- fire has very clearly been shown to burn, even people, in the Avatar-verse. Yet you have Pro-Bending alongside that, where people are just getting pushed around by fire instead of burnt by it.

I don't think there is full immunity against fire, but at minimum, benders seem to be able to negate the actual burning part if they're ready for it and aren't overwhelmed. Overwhelming is admittedly quite possible with the amount of fire Roy has been shown to throw around- if he can burn a homunculus to death, I see no reason he can't burn a bender if he bent his will towards it. He might have to fight for it though.

Flickerdart
2012-07-22, 02:26 PM
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, with the Korra Spoilers character, the bending in question is not only capable of being resisted when done just entally,
Nope. The only way to resist it with any sort of speed is either being a better bender of the same type, or being the Avatar, and Mustang is neither one of those things. Ever tried to snap your fingers while moving as slowly as molasses? It isn't a thing that happens.


When have Bumi or Iroh done instantaneous bending without any gesturing or such? Certainly never seen Aang do it, even in the Avatar State...
Iroh's breathing fire or steam doesn't require gestures beyond breathing, which he does anyway. Bumi is able to bend with his chin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8q4i2BMmkw) in an episode where he's encased completely in metal, though that isn't instantaneous.

Fan
2012-07-22, 02:36 PM
Still not a single frame speed in activation, and hit on target.

I'm not arguing they can't redirect fire they know is coming, out of the gate, Roy Mustang can just cause an explosion around the person's head and bam, end game as it hits before anything in Avatar Verse can, and it's doubtful that Aang or Korra have the guts to start with a kill shot anyway.

Mustang is a bit of a monster when it comes to these kinds of things, this man has been in an actual war where murder was a necessity, Aang couldn't even murder Ozai, who quite honestly would've deserved it if only as a preventative measure without energy bending being the deus ex machina it is.

Bending usually takes the time it takes to adopt a stance as well, "Water Bending forms", and other such things are even slower with Fire / Air bending being the highest demonstrated attack speeds in the verse, with Earth Bending being the slowest with the assumed highest kinetic impact.

Roy has been shown to be able to target specific area's on the body as well, at distance, in single frame speeds giving him preternatural reflexes / eye sight, and this isn't the only time Alchemists display near Super Human abilities in physical attributes. (Alex Louis Armstrong anyone?)

Meanwhile, Aang's reflexes at best are Peak Human, and even his attacks against Ozai in the huge final battle aren't single frame fast in the Avatar State, and redirection of an attack requires awareness, and given the speed of the attack (Well over 4 times anything shown in Avatar, including Lightning bending.) I can't see them having reaction time on this going by math alone.

However, personally, I give it to Avatar for better series, though it's a damn close race.

Also the "Dragon Breath" trick required the catalyst, and was a trick specific to Iroh. This is Mustang V.S. The Avatar as Shown, not The Avatar with the specific abilities of every master who has ever lived.

endoperez
2012-07-22, 03:28 PM
endoperez, your pics are forbidden to me... and that makes me sad...

I'll try again. Blocking SSBM's blast:

http://atla.avatarspirit.net/screenshots.php?quality=dvd&num=305&page=25



Jeong Jeong's disappearing act in The Deserter:

http://atla.avatarspirit.net/screenshots.php?quality=dvd&num=116&page=28

These link to the page with a collection of screenshots. See the last line(s) for the important pictures.



Fan:

There's no "1-frame" bending in Avatar, to my knowledge, but that might just be due the show's artistic style. Here, a natural lightning strike takes at least three frames. Since these are just random screenshots, there might be even more.

http://atla.avatarspirit.net/screenshots.php?quality=dvd&num=112&page=27


And if that isn't enough...

Well, I could claim, with no evidence whatsoever, that anything that requires slow-motion is equal to anything that takes a single frame. Avatar uses slow-motion instead of drastic single-frame changes to show off the bending moves.

Xondoure
2012-07-22, 03:29 PM
FAN- it isn't going to be single frame. Quite the opposite in fact. Every time we see tremor sense we get slow mo cam.

I will say that all an accomplished earthbender has to do to suck someone underground is twist their foot. The attack happens during the twist not after, so it's comparable to the snap. Especially if it throws off Mustang's aim.

Fan
2012-07-22, 03:51 PM
I'll try again. Blocking SSBM's blast:

http://atla.avatarspirit.net/screenshots.php?quality=dvd&num=305&page=25



Jeong Jeong's disappearing act in The Deserter:

http://atla.avatarspirit.net/screenshots.php?quality=dvd&num=116&page=28

These link to the page with a collection of screenshots. See the last line(s) for the important pictures.



Fan:

There's no "1-frame" bending in Avatar, to my knowledge, but that might just be due the show's artistic style. Here, a natural lightning strike takes at least three frames. Since these are just random screenshots, there might be even more.

http://atla.avatarspirit.net/screenshots.php?quality=dvd&num=112&page=27


And if that isn't enough...

Well, I could claim, with no evidence whatsoever, that anything that requires slow-motion is equal to anything that takes a single frame. Avatar uses slow-motion instead of drastic single-frame changes to show off the bending moves.

7 frames v.s. one, and Aang was still propelled by the blast implying he wasn't able to completely negate the blast, AND it's a smaller scale than a lot of Mustang's higher end explosions.

Also, Aang traditionally opens single combat with Air bending, and has Earth as his weakest element, AND only ever opens combat with this once, AND the earth is still slower than the snap, shifting your foot forward is STILL slower than a finger snap as it's full limb movement as opposed to a smaller motor movement.

Also if your claim has no evidence, don't make it.

BRC
2012-07-22, 04:22 PM
(Note: I have not read the thread).

Really, it's a race, and much of it will depend on how much information each has about the other.

IIRC: Roy transmutes the air into something flammable, then ignites it with a snap of his fingers, thus creating the explosion. It's fast, but it does take some time to do. However, it dosn't work when his gloves are wet. Also, IIRC, we have evidence of some people in FMA (Scar does it at least once, I think), moving fast enough to avoid Mustang's explosions.

They are meeting on the bridge, if The Avatar fights smart, Mustang only has one chance to win this. If his initial attack fails, the Avatar can jump off the bridge into the water. Korra, at the very least, was a strong swimmer.

Once the Avatar has a moment , they can waterbend a big wave onto the bridge. It dosn't need to be big enough to knock Mustang off, it just has to get him, specifically his glove, wet. Once his glove is wet, the fight is basically over.

Otherwise, the Avatar could use earth or airbending to knock him into the water, which would have the same effect. The trick will be dodging that initial attack.

Fan
2012-07-22, 06:22 PM
(Note: I have not read the thread).

Really, it's a race, and much of it will depend on how much information each has about the other.

IIRC: Roy transmutes the air into something flammable, then ignites it with a snap of his fingers, thus creating the explosion. It's fast, but it does take some time to do. However, it dosn't work when his gloves are wet. Also, IIRC, we have evidence of some people in FMA (Scar does it at least once, I think), moving fast enough to avoid Mustang's explosions.

They are meeting on the bridge, if The Avatar fights smart, Mustang only has one chance to win this. If his initial attack fails, the Avatar can jump off the bridge into the water. Korra, at the very least, was a strong swimmer.

Once the Avatar has a moment , they can waterbend a big wave onto the bridge. It dosn't need to be big enough to knock Mustang off, it just has to get him, specifically his glove, wet. Once his glove is wet, the fight is basically over.

Otherwise, the Avatar could use earth or airbending to knock him into the water, which would have the same effect. The trick will be dodging that initial attack.

All seems dependent on there being a environmental advantage for the avatar.

It's not like Mustang wouldn't just confront him in the arena they have specifically built for state alchemist fights.

or if he was REALLY trying to kill him, Mustang being the INFINITELY more brutal type, he would probably blow their head off in their sleep.

I mean, if we're allowing prior knowledge about the target, he would also know to bring a water proof method of making a spark, and start off with it.

Ramza00
2012-07-22, 06:25 PM
I know I am the original poster but here is my thoughts.

Roy will probably take this for most of his moves are faster than most of the avatar moves. That said the avatar moves are far more versatile.

I do not think use any of the 4 elements for defense is going to be helpful for Aang or Korra.


Fire. The avatar if he is aware of the fire move being performed can use another fire move to debend the fire. You do not have to be as strong as the original bender as evident by Ozai firebending vs Aang's counterbending. Roy can easily counter this by just overwhelming Aang by multiple fireblasts by snapping his fingers time after time, Aang will lose for he won't be able to keep up.
Water: The avatar if he has a nearby water source can use a water shield to defend. Roy counters this by using multiple strong attacks for it has been shown that a strong enough fireblast will evaporate/dissipate water, a waterbender though can continue to defend if he can replenish his watersupply fast enough. Problem is Roy can attack with just a finger snap
Air: The avatar can create a bubble/forcefield of air. Roy counter thisby using multiple blasts to disrupt the air current. Use one big expansive blast to break the surface tension of the air shield, this is quite easy to do for Roy can make his explosions burn or be combustive by controlling the mixture of gases. Roy then uses the next blast to blow up the avatar.
Earth: The avatar uses a wall of earth to block a fireblast. [B]Roy counter this[B] by using multiple strong attacks, while the first attack would be block by the wall of earth it has been established multiple times if the firebending is strong enough it will destroy the rock formation. The second or third followup attack will connect and defeat the avatar.


So how Aang or Korra would win with a fight with mustang is not trying to use their first moveset to create a defense for if they do so they would lose due to how quickly Mustang can create follow up explosions.

Believe it or not I believe Aang's fastest moveset is very basic earthbending. All bending requires some form of movement (though Sparky Sparky Boom Man/Combustion Man and Noatak/Amon can bending via mere controlled breathing, Yakone can bend with his eyes I consider these people prodigies and thus abnormal and even with these prodigies it required some form of movement) yet Masters such as Toph, Iroh, Bumi can all perform bending with far reduced movement than a normal bender.

While normal Hung Gar earthbending is slow since normally earthbending picks up a rock from the ground, leviates it, and then throws it. Southern Praying Mantis earthbending appears to be much faster for if you do not levitate the rock instead you can choose to just cause the rock to shoot out of the ground as a pillar with just placing your foot on the ground (see Toph vs Dai Li on day of black sun, Toph vs the Boulder, Aang vs Ozai when Avatar Aang defeats Ozai Aang decides not to kill Ozai followed by Ozai attacking.) In fact I would argue Southern Praying Mantis earthbending if they keep the moves simple is the fastest bending we have seen from the avatar universe with the exception of prodigies.

Furthermore Tophs more complicated earth bending can be performed by her opening her fists followed by forcing her hands into a pincer motion.

Instead of causing pillars to errupt from the earth Aang could instead cause sharp spikes to errupt from the earth similar to what you see in FMA. If he can slam his foot onto the ground fast enough he may get in a lucky critical shot prior to Mustang snapping his fingers.

------------------------

While Aang has not show this ability, Avatar Roku was able to suck his body into the ground extremely quickly when Fire Lord Sozin attacked him (note that Avatar Roku was not in the Avatar State when this occured for a few seconds later after incapacitating Fire Lord Sozin, Roku purposefully went into the Avatar State to show he means business.) In theory if Aang is capable of this skill set this is his best possible defense against Roy Mustang for Roy Mustang's fireballs won't be able to follow him. Aang then uses tremorsense to use follow up attacks to defeat Mustang. While we are not sure Aang is capable of this but if Roku can do it the Avatar state can as well.

Math_Mage
2012-07-22, 07:05 PM
When it comes to elemental control, Bending is the bow & arrow to Alchemy's gun.

Fjolnir
2012-07-22, 07:12 PM
One of the better passive bending tricks besides Tremorsense is found within Air's toolset and that is superspeed. Without complicated forms or any noticeable bending at all, Aang propels himself on foot faster than a great many characters, combine that with his natural evasiveness along with multiple bending knowledge and he can likely make the fight difficult, if not actually physically win, though Korra lacks both of those tricks...

Traab
2012-07-22, 07:18 PM
When it comes to elemental control, Bending is the bow & arrow to Alchemy's gun.

I dunno, in general, alchemy is a lot slower than bending, its just roy has his personal trick that acts as a short cut. You have to draw a specific circle and often times intricate design onto the ground, or surface of whatever you are altering, and that takes time. Yes, every alchemist is capable of working with all elements, but using the vast majority of them takes way more time than some martial arts kata for bending. The state alchemists tend to each have a single specialty that they have a permanent circle tattooed or otherwise placed on them. Roy has his fire, armstrong does that thing with rocks, the crazy guy had his bomb making circle, and with that specific talent they were fast and powerful, but counter that in some way and they are vulnerable to fast attacks. I think you see that happen a few times to Al in FMA as he is trying to draw a quick circle while under attack and keeps getting interrupted and having to start over again in another spot.

Fan
2012-07-22, 07:20 PM
One of the better passive bending tricks besides Tremorsense is found within Air's toolset and that is superspeed. Without complicated forms or any noticeable bending at all, Aang propels himself on foot faster than a great many characters, combine that with his natural evasiveness along with multiple bending knowledge and he can likely make the fight difficult, if not actually physically win, though Korra lacks both of those tricks...

Superspeed?

The little air ball isn't high way speed fast, and that's how fast Roy operates. 90 MPH (rounded up), is well over 7 times faster than Sparky Sparky Boom Guy which Aang was BARELY able to react to in time, AND he didn't even completely negate the explosion, he was hurtled across the horizon.

ShneekeyTheLost
2012-07-22, 07:20 PM
Roy, hands down, against everything BUT the Avatar State.

The reason? The avatars try to not kill anyone. Roy? Doesn't have that problem. Not after Ishbal.

Round 1: Roy snaps his fingers. Avatar flambe, complete with seared lungs. End of fight.

Also, Roy carries TWO friction-cloth gloves with pre-inscribed Transmutation Circles. You may recall several occasions in which his primary glove was compromised.

In the Avatar State, the avatar is pretty much immune to fire, so Roy's primary weapon is ineffective. Mind you, his handgun is still pretty nasty, and the Avatar State HAS been taken down by a gun before, but that was by surprise, which Roy wouldn't have. Lt. Hawkeye could, of course. But she's not involved in this.

BRC
2012-07-22, 07:24 PM
All seems dependent on there being a environmental advantage for the avatar.

It's not like Mustang wouldn't just confront him in the arena they have specifically built for state alchemist fights.
s.
OP stated they were meeting on a stone bridge over a lake.

IIRC Roy has demonstrated that he can work just fine (Albeit, less dramatically) if he has a lighter or some matches instead of a dry glove. But the OP didn't say he had any of that.

Really, any water source could be used to shut down Roy. You wouldn't need much force, you just need to get the glove too wet to make a spark.

Fan
2012-07-22, 07:28 PM
Again, he has to be able to react to it, and 90 MPH is kinda REALLY difficult for a human starting at static speed to react to, especially since his attacks aren't telegraphed by the path of the attack (Even air has a visible travel path.), whereas Mustang's isn't.

Aang's attacks, regardless of bending type, aren't fast enough to reach Mustang before the kill is dropped, even in Avatar state.

Ramza00
2012-07-22, 07:31 PM
OP stated they were meeting on a stone bridge over a lake.
It appears to be a wooden bridge which they are not on but standing opposite of each other with the bridge between them.

Traab
2012-07-22, 07:41 PM
Superspeed?

The little air ball isn't high way speed fast, and that's how fast Roy operates. 90 MPH (rounded up), is well over 7 times faster than Sparky Sparky Boom Guy which Aang was BARELY able to react to in time, AND he didn't even completely negate the explosion, he was hurtled across the horizon.

Dont forget either, that in the linked video of roy taking down envy, envy was moving VERY fast and still getting his ass set on fire and blown up constantly. No amount of dodging, shape shifting, or flat out super speed sprinting kept him from getting his body blown up for the umpteenth time. So even if aang IS moving faster than humanly possible, roy and his fire abilities are quicker. He seems to need line of sight, but if he is looking at it, it blows up, no matter how fast it moves.

TheSummoner
2012-07-22, 08:03 PM
Something that hit me.


The Avatar is familiar with the concept of alchemists, and the concept of state alchemists. He can recognize the flame alchemist on sight and knows of the name flame alchemist but doesn't have any other special knowledge of Roy Mustang's abilities.

The Avatar doesn't know about Roy's gloves. While the Avatar might figure out the role the gloves play during the fight, it certainly wouldn't be until after Roy attacks, so any pre-emptive strikes to soak, tear, or otherwise remove the gloves from the equation wouldn't happen.

MLai
2012-07-22, 11:22 PM
Funny how somebody post picture of Zuko after I specifically discounted his facial burn in my original post. Proof ppl don't read more than 2 lines.

Yes, firebender can be burnt by fire, but specifically they have to be overwhelmed first. Which is demonstrated by the kid Zuko example, and by every fire vs fire duel ever in the 2 series. So all the follow-up retorts citing Agni Kais and Sozen-vs-Roku are all irrelevant; they were firebending each other with the intent of overwhelming the opponent.

So, Roy's "airborne spark fuse" has the speed of a professional baseball pitch, without the windup. It's not so much overwhelming a firebender, as it is just too fast to react to. However, that only assumes that a firebender needs to actively react to a spark of Roy's strength with some form/stance, rather than just having a passive "shield" that Roy's spark is too weak to penetrate. Because let's face it Roy's spark is weak-ass; it's only the fuse that ignites the fireball. If Roy cannot put more "force" behind his spark, then the speed means nothing as long as the firebender has readied himself.

SSB Man's explosive attacks can shatter rock, i.e. it can overwhelm. Can Roy's spark fuse shatter rock? In fact, someone let me know if Roy's "explosions" can do anything besides scorch. I can't remember the show too well and I haven't read the manga, but the Vs-Envy clip shows only burning, not exploding.

In the 2 shows, you see when a firebending mook gets overwhelmed, he either puts his arms up in an undisciplined desperate defense, or just gets hit square in the chest. And then they get flattened on their back as if someone just power-kicked them. BUT no burns on their skin. This shows firebenders do have a passive "shield" that functions even when they have no time to adopt a form/stance.

Roy's spark has no strength behind it; it's the equivalent of a spit-ball to a firebender. So unless the firebender is asleep or completely at ease, the spark cannot penetrate the firebender's "personal space", and hence no follow-up point-blank explosion.

TheSummoner
2012-07-22, 11:31 PM
...What?

This isn't overwhelming? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enyipxV6ds0)


In the 2 shows, you see when a firebending mook gets overwhelmed, he either puts his arms up in an undisciplined desperate defense, or just gets hit square in the chest. And then they get flattened on their back as if someone just power-kicked them. BUT no burns on their skin. This shows firebenders do have a passive "shield" that functions even when they have no time to adopt a form/stance.

Or alternatively that the network executives on a kid's network don't want to show... Well... This happening (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enyipxV6ds0)...

Reverent-One
2012-07-22, 11:33 PM
In the 2 shows, you see when a firebending mook gets overwhelmed, he either puts his arms up in an undisciplined desperate defense, or just gets hit square in the chest. And then they get flattened on their back as if someone just power-kicked them. BUT no burns on their skin. This shows firebenders do have a passive "shield" that functions even when they have no time to adopt a form/stance.

No, it shows they're on a kid's show that isn't going to show burning. We don't see water or earthbenders being burned either in similar circumstances.

Fjolnir
2012-07-22, 11:35 PM
Fan I am not talking about the airball, I am talking about Aang's normal ability to move faster than a human in order to perform feats like running up the walls of ba sing se to get atop the drill in the drill among other times- he often puts an airball under him to accelerate further but he gets about 15-20 feet up the wall before he even does that. Korra & Mako wall run themselves but it requires them to use fire to press them against the wall with their arms outstretched, aang uses none of that, he just flat runs straight at the wall and moves up it at a dead run. I agree that it might not be enough to do the job, but he CAN move faster than a human without using bending forms.

Fan
2012-07-22, 11:42 PM
Fan I am not talking about the airball, I am talking about Aang's normal ability to move faster than a human in order to perform feats like running up the walls of ba sing se to get atop the drill in the drill among other times- he often puts an airball under him to accelerate further but he gets about 15-20 feet up the wall before he even does that. Korra & Mako wall run themselves but it requires them to use fire to press them against the wall with their arms outstretched, aang uses none of that, he just flat runs straight at the wall and moves up it at a dead run. I agree that it might not be enough to do the job, but he CAN move faster than a human without using bending forms.

Videos plox.

Fjolnir
2012-07-23, 01:14 AM
15:25 into The Drill, he's running through the interior fast enough to make one of the engineer's topknots stand straight out, then without slowing down hits the ladder at a dead run. then at 19:25 same episode, he scales the side of the drill by running (complete with roadrunneresque foot movements) after momo gets him to his feet, then at the 20 minute mark; he runs, to airball up the wall, then wallruns up the wall, then runs DOWN the wall with a massive burst of air to propel him. he is a good 4 drills high when he starts coming down the wall and he doesn't release from the wall until he jumps.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 01:16 AM
I'm going to side with Avatar State: Winner Aang. Out of Avatar State: Winner Mustang. The spinning air ball isn't going to give the alchemist a chance to alter the air around him because it isn't the same air anymore.

Fan
2012-07-23, 02:06 AM
I'm going to side with Avatar State: Winner Aang. Out of Avatar State: Winner Mustang. The spinning air ball isn't going to give the alchemist a chance to alter the air around him because it isn't the same air anymore.

The air is just moving, it is still the same air.

What on earth are you talking about?

MLai
2012-07-23, 02:10 AM
@ TheSummoner:
Man, I don't write walls of text, so please read my whole post?
I said, "Roy's spark has no strength behind it... the spark cannot penetrate the firebender's personal space (note: by overwhelming), and hence no follow-up point-blank explosion."
Roy could shape his fireballs/eruptions outside of the firebender's personal space for the purpose of overwhelming a firebender, but then it's not going to be a point-blank insta-kill explosion inside the firebender's sinuses.
And as I cannot remember the anime scene-for-scene, I'm not convinced that his fireballs "explode" rather than just "flash burn." He was standing pretty close to Envy being burnt in rapid sequence, and his clothes weren't even fluttering. I need to see something blown up/away forcefully by his technique (Envy desperately jumping out of a flash fireball doesn't count).

@ Reverent One:
That's the genre-savvy explanation. But there also needs to be in-universe explanation. In-universe, it's that firebenders can passively shield their body from fire unless they get completely overwhelmed. This isn't shown by non-firebenders (see Katara getting 2nd~3rd degree burns from a "small" fireburst from Aang). All other non-firebenders that get directly tagged by fire but aren't burnt, were wearing special full-body + face-shield protection.


Fan: The air is just moving, it is still the same air.
Actually for skilled Airbender vs Mustang, I agree with Xond. Mustang creates a spark route by altering a trail of air. He can't do that in the middle of a tornado (or into a tornado). Mustang's fight vs Fuhrer-Wrath may not be author-canon, but it goes by that principle as well.

Fan
2012-07-23, 02:28 AM
@ TheSummoner:
Man, I don't write walls of text, so please read my whole post?
I said, "Roy's spark has no strength behind it... the spark cannot penetrate the firebender's personal space (note: by overwhelming), and hence no follow-up point-blank explosion."
Roy could shape his fireballs/eruptions outside of the firebender's personal space for the purpose of overwhelming a firebender, but then it's not going to be a point-blank insta-kill explosion inside the firebender's sinuses.
And as I cannot remember the anime scene-for-scene, I'm not convinced that his fireballs "explode" rather than just "flash burn." He was standing pretty close to Envy being burnt in rapid sequence, and his clothes weren't even fluttering. I need to see something blown up/away forcefully by his technique (Envy desperately jumping out of a flash fireball doesn't count).

@ Reverent One:
That's the genre-savvy explanation. But there also needs to be in-universe explanation. In-universe, it's that firebenders can passively shield their body from fire unless they get completely overwhelmed. This isn't shown by non-firebenders (see Katara getting 2nd~3rd degree burns from a "small" fireburst from Aang). All other non-firebenders that get directly tagged by fire but aren't burnt, were wearing special full-body + face-shield protection.


Actually for skilled Airbender vs Mustang, I agree with Xond. Mustang creates a spark route by altering a trail of air. He can't do that in the middle of a tornado (or into a tornado). Mustang's fight vs Fuhrer-Wrath may not be author-canon, but it goes by that principle as well.

That's not how it works at all, the spark is TOO SMALL, and going TOO FAST for it to really be seen. Something the width of a human hair going at 90 MPH, hell even a baseball is hard as hell to see.

Also, PLEASE provide the in canon backing to your claims.. any of them.

MLai
2012-07-23, 02:32 AM
That's not how it works at all, the spark is TOO SMALL, and going TOO FAST for it to really be seen. Something the width of a human hair going at 90 MPH, hell even a baseball is hard as hell to see.

Also, PLEASE provide the in canon backing to your claims.. any of them.
1. Why does it need to be seen? What does fast have to do with it? I'm not clear which point you're addressing.
2. In-canon claim... to the Mustang vs Fuhrer-Wrath fight? It's in the end of the 1st FMA anime series.

endoperez
2012-07-23, 02:33 AM
RE: running really fast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mlz49co17k
Aang is running in a circle so fast that there's a tornado inside.

Screenshots of Aang running really fast, to get the medicine in The Blue Spirit.
http://atla.avatarspirit.net/screenshots.php?quality=dvd&num=113&page=6



Also if your claim has no evidence, don't make it.

Well then, I'll have to give some thought into the relative speed of a slow-motion move in Avatar compared to the normal-speed move in FMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ML5QdhVV1A&feature=player_detailpage#t=75s

The Boulder's foot touches the ground at 1 min 17 seconds. It sends out a tremor, a vibration, through the ground, that reaches Toph at 1 min 21 seconds, a bit less than 4 seconds later. I'm not sure what's the exact distance between the two of them, but let's use 10 meters for a round number. For the speed of vibration, let's use the speed of sound in rock, approximately 6000 meters/second.
It takes 4 seconds of animation, or 4*24 frames = 96 frames, for the vibration to travel 10 meters. That means 96 frames of Avatar slow-motion take 1/600th of a second, or 4/25ths of a second.

That means that there's 24 frames of Avatar slow-motion per 1 frame of Fullmetal Alchemist animation. Ample time for benders to react.

This is also ridiculous.

You're basing your argument (and I my ridiculous calculations) on speeds calculated assuming that the physical events happening in a single frame perfectly match the real world assuming, assuming they take the time calculated from the stated FPS rate of the animation. That only works if the animators animated everything according to physical calculations. That's untrue, because animation is done to create the biggest dramatic appeal, not the most accurate physical representation.

However, assuming the animation frames have some sort of correlation to physics, we then have to consider how many actual animated frames exist.

You claimed at some point that Blue-ray (60 FPS) would make a single-frame animation faster. This is untrue, since the animators didn't draw 30+ extra frames for the Blue-Ray release. The amount of different frames drawn is the same, so it should have no effect on the "physics" calculations.

Furthermore, one of the ways to cut costs in animation is to double frames - in an animation that's running 24 FPS, there are only 12 different drawings, each displayed twice. Only more important, dynamic scenes would actually have all 24 frames animated. This means that time and physics speed up during fight scenes. Again, ridiculous.

TheSummoner
2012-07-23, 02:43 AM
1. Why does it need to be seen? What does fast have to do with it? I'm not clear which point you're addressing.
2. In-canon claim... to the Mustang vs Fuhrer-Wrath fight? It's in the end of the 1st FMA anime series.

Because the spark originates at the glove... Or lighter... Or wherever the existing flame is. The spark never has to be in anyone's personal space for that to be where the flame goes off. Roy snaps his fingers, and flames sprout up where he wants them to due to the way he manipulates the air on an atomic level. It's not instant, but it's fast enough that it may as well be.

He snaps his fingers (or has access to literally any nearby source of flame or spark) and your eyes are boiled. Or you're surrounded by an inferno. Or your tongue is reduced to bubbling fat. That is all it takes.

MLai
2012-07-23, 03:08 AM
From the anime (Mustang roasting Envy scene), there is a clear trail of fire traveling from Mustang's hand to the point of flash-burn.
1. Mustang rubs fingers and spark is created.
2. Spark travels (very fast) from fingers, along air trail created by Mustang, to ball of altered air Mustang has created at target point.
3. Spark reaches ball of altered air at endpoint, bang.

Mustang does not teleport the spark from his fingers to the target. This has been discussed in previous pages: The only times we see no spark trail to the target is when Mustang is offscreen, and the target suddenly bursts into flame (monster-Envy's eyes, for example) for dramatic effect.

TheSummoner
2012-07-23, 03:15 AM
And as soon as it catches the air, it's no longer just a spark, it's a trail of flame. Even if your claim that firebenders can't be burned (which is much more likely just Nick executives not wanting to SHOW people being burned since's it's been pointed out non-firebenders suffer no worse when hit by fire) had any validity, that trail of flame doesn't HAVE to burn them. It just has to hit larger (or just denser) pocket of air which WOULD have the sort of overwhelming force you claim is necessary.

Fan
2012-07-23, 03:21 AM
RE: running really fast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mlz49co17k
Aang is running in a circle so fast that there's a tornado inside.

Screenshots of Aang running really fast, to get the medicine in The Blue Spirit.
http://atla.avatarspirit.net/screenshots.php?quality=dvd&num=113&page=6




Well then, I'll have to give some thought into the relative speed of a slow-motion move in Avatar compared to the normal-speed move in FMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ML5QdhVV1A&feature=player_detailpage#t=75s

The Boulder's foot touches the ground at 1 min 17 seconds. It sends out a tremor, a vibration, through the ground, that reaches Toph at 1 min 21 seconds, a bit less than 4 seconds later. I'm not sure what's the exact distance between the two of them, but let's use 10 meters for a round number. For the speed of vibration, let's use the speed of sound in rock, approximately 6000 meters/second.
It takes 4 seconds of animation, or 4*24 frames = 96 frames, for the vibration to travel 10 meters. That means 96 frames of Avatar slow-motion take 1/600th of a second, or 4/25ths of a second.

That means that there's 24 frames of Avatar slow-motion per 1 frame of Fullmetal Alchemist animation. Ample time for benders to react.

This is also ridiculous.

You're basing your argument (and I my ridiculous calculations) on speeds calculated assuming that the physical events happening in a single frame perfectly match the real world assuming, assuming they take the time calculated from the stated FPS rate of the animation. That only works if the animators animated everything according to physical calculations. That's untrue, because animation is done to create the biggest dramatic appeal, not the most accurate physical representation.

However, assuming the animation frames have some sort of correlation to physics, we then have to consider how many actual animated frames exist.

You claimed at some point that Blue-ray (60 FPS) would make a single-frame animation faster. This is untrue, since the animators didn't draw 30+ extra frames for the Blue-Ray release. The amount of different frames drawn is the same, so it should have no effect on the "physics" calculations.

Furthermore, one of the ways to cut costs in animation is to double frames - in an animation that's running 24 FPS, there are only 12 different drawings, each displayed twice. Only more important, dynamic scenes would actually have all 24 frames animated. This means that time and physics speed up during fight scenes. Again, ridiculous.

Actually, 24.947 FPS is standard DVD frame rate for traditional movies as well, and we don't see double frames.

Unless you have some citation there..

Also, Tremor Sense is an ability the avatar doesn't have. Show it being used by him, and we'll have an accurate comparison for HIS slow motion. Though again, I still adhere to the fact that slow motion is just used for dramatic effect, and is in fact, not used to represent actual combat speeds.

Whereas in FMA, it's a repeated thing that does not interrupt flow, AND is demonstrated by the character in question.

MLai
2012-07-23, 03:43 AM
And as soon as it catches the air, it's no longer just a spark, it's a trail of flame. Even if your claim that firebenders can't be burned (which is much more likely just Nick executives not wanting to SHOW people being burned since's it's been pointed out non-firebenders suffer no worse when hit by fire) had any validity, that trail of flame doesn't HAVE to burn them. It just has to hit larger (or just denser) pocket of air which WOULD have the sort of overwhelming force you claim is necessary.
(1) I still need evidence of non-firebenders getting hit directly by fire and not being burned. Excluding probenders who all wear asbestos suits and full faceshields. Also, Amon's ninjas are likely to be wearing asbestos overalls as well, considering they're always specifically geared to fight benders.

(2) Genre-savvy reason does not preclude in-universe reason.

(3) My whole point about possible "passive shielding" of firebenders, is that a small spark traveling purely by chemical/alchemical ignition is too weak to bypass the passive shielding. In terms of strength, it's a spitball. It's not going to be able to get all the way inside a firebender's mouth to ignite the ball of altered air that Mustang has put there; it will likely stop a few centimeters away from the bender's body and spontaneously extinguish.

My envisioned scenario of a duel between Mustang and a strong firebender:

(1) Mustang tries tongue-melting trick, and realizes no spark can get that close to the firebender -- the fire just "magically" dies despite all of the correct alchemy. Firebender is completely unaware of what Mustang is trying to accomplish, but is in "ready stance", with passive shield up.
(2) Mustang changes tactics, and just makes flash-bangs as close to the firebender as possible.
(3) Firebender is caught by surprise, tossed back by the concussive force, but the fire still doesn't burn him.
(4) Firebender starts to understand what Mustang is doing (similar to SSBM but faster, and not as strongly explosive), and adopts stances/techniques which actively counter/block it.
(5) Dunno who might win. But it's not as easy as "Mustang insta-melt your brain. The end."

Fan
2012-07-23, 03:49 AM
I would like to see some proof of fire benders being fire proof.

At all.

Any of it.

Other than assumptions based on a lack of combat injuries which is true also for massive boulders impacting people.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-23, 04:34 AM
We know from Zuko firebenders aren't inherently fire-proof. There's heat control in the skill set and fighting fire with fire, but I can't find anything that explicitly makes it passive in way that would work here.

However I'm curious where people get the notion Mustang is radically faster? He's not really, you need time to snap fingers and perform alchemy at least comparable to throwing a punch which is as fast as bending can be done. The real problem is his attack is effectively invisible and very accurate so is pretty impossible to dodge. I think because of this he can totally get one off on Aang.

There's a problem though... so help me its not depicted as instantly fatal. Nor is it easy for fire to do that. While this isn't a terribly big deal for an opponent in FMA it is here. Because a pretty serious blow is likely to trigger an Avatar State reaction from Aang. And since Aang doesn't need to see (tremorsense) even the little eye frying trick isn't going to be as big a finisher as it would normally be. Even aside from the AS Aang will have the opportunity to put up effective defenses so he bring his much larger scale and variety into the fight.

And going by character it doesn't fit Roy to go for instant kills when he doesn't have a personal score to settle anyways. But if Roy does, its the sort of thing that can only work once, Aang burned badly and even blind is still Aang victorious.

(Similar case for Korra who without AS would loose if Roy goes for insta-death but probably does pretty well under that threshold since she uses the simplified quick style of her era. You don't need large scale bending when you just keep your opponent off balance with a lot of little attacks.)

Ramza00
2012-07-23, 04:46 AM
There's a problem though... so help me its not depicted as instantly fatal. Nor is it easy for fire to do that. While this isn't a terribly big deal for an opponent in FMA it is here. Because a pretty serious blow is likely to trigger an Avatar State reaction from Aang. And since Aang doesn't need to see (tremorsense) even the little eye frying trick isn't going to be as big a finisher as it would normally be. Even aside from the AS Aang will have the opportunity to put up effective defenses so he bring his much larger scale and variety into the fight.
Roy's explosions and fireballs are without a doubt instantly fatal if Roy chooses to make them so. Remember the charred corpse of Maria Ross, that was caused by a single application of Roy's alchemy. The corpse was in reality not a human person but you couldn't tell for the burns were so severe that all you saw was a husk.

Now against an inhuman regenerating monster that is a homunculus is his fires may not seem fatal but to a normal human you would be dead instantly.

MLai
2012-07-23, 05:05 AM
We know from Zuko firebenders aren't inherently fire-proof. There's heat control in the skill set and fighting fire with fire, but I can't find anything that explicitly makes it passive in way that would work here.
Kid Zuko has a burn because he was a kid facing off his father, with no desire to fight. Naturally he is instantly overwhelmed.
What I'm basing my conjecture of "passive shielding" on is, we see a lot of firebender mooks getting blasted full in the body by fire all the time. Case in point Korra eps. 1. But it's treated as a physical blow (likely the explosive force of the fireball); they never get burned even if they didn't even have time to raise their arms for a desperate block.
Genre explanation is ofc it's a kid's show. But in-universe what is the explanation that firebender mooks can fail to block/redirect and get hit full-force by a fireball but not be burned? And yet non-firebender characters either do get burned easily (Katara), or are conveniently wearing fireproof shielding (probenders), or never get blasted by fire directly (so Nick can skirt the issue).

Give me one video clip where a non-firebender, not wearing any fireproof clothing, gets blasted fully by fire (like the fire-instructor in Korra eps.1), and then has no burns.


There's a problem though... so help me its not depicted as instantly fatal. Nor is it easy for fire to do that.
While I think Roy's flash burns are more fire than explosion, it doesn't take much to kill you if it occurs inside your sinuses. Hell, inside your lungs.
If he can ignite your mouth, he can ignite your lungs.

endoperez
2012-07-23, 05:08 AM
Actually, 24.947 FPS is standard DVD frame rate for traditional movies as well, and we don't see double frames.

Unless you have some citation there..

DVD frame rate and BlueRay frame rate don't matter when the source material is done in some other format. This could be 24, 25, 30 or whatever FPS. It's then re-scaled to fit the format. Surely you understand that animators aren't animating exactly 24.947 frames per second?

It looks like 24 FPS, with 12 doubled frames, is rather common:

http://forums.awn.com/showthread.php?t=3230

"In 2D, the west animates at 24 fps (or 12 fps on 2's) and uses a 3:2 pulldown to get to the 30 fps (29.97, actually) required for video."

"I do believe most studios animate at 24 fps. Not to say that some studios don't use different frame rates, I actually do freelance for a studio that animates at 30fps. 24fps is the most standard and the easiest to break down in halves, 24,12,6,etc. as apposed to 30, 15, 7.5, 3.75... The thing is, animate at what ever frame rate the studio you're working for wants."

However, there they also mention this: " In Japan it's 6-8 fps for limited TV animation and fully animated 12-24 fps for feature films." However, that probably depends quite a lot on the series in question, and the fire effects we're talking about coupled with the decent budget of FMA series probably gives the important scenes higher FPS rate.



http://washiblog.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/anime-production-detailed-guide-to-how-anime-is-made-and-the-talent-behind-it/

"Generally, especially for TV, anime will be animated at 2:s, which means 1 drawing lasts for two frames (equating to 12 drawings per second), but sometimes animation is done at 1:s (24 frames every second) or 3:s. If every second of an anime was animated at even 2:s that would involve using around 15000 drawings for an episode! In reality, because many shots have cels as static, or because many scenes don’t necessarily require fluid movement, the average anime will have around 3000 frames/drawings."


This is also an interesting tidbit:
"Often key animators, particularly famous ones, or for important sequences, will do many of the drawings themselves, to minimise the number of potentially inferior in-between frames. There are many examples of this, but one of my favourites is Yoshimichi Kameda’s sequence from FMA:Brotherhood in which Mustang is burning Lust, for which he did all the in-between frames himself. I doubt frames drawn by other people could have matches his impressive drawings for that scene! "

Anarion
2012-07-23, 05:32 AM
Also, Tremor Sense is an ability the avatar doesn't have. Show it being used by him, and we'll have an accurate comparison for HIS slow motion.

Aang has this ability. He uses it on Ozai right after he drops out of the avatar state during their fight. Ozai is on the ground about to fireblast Aang, Aang uses tremor sense, and then kicks up a block of earth to handcuff Ozai and prevent his bending.


Also, regarding the instant nature of the fatality, a point here. The charred body of Maria Ross, or any other single Mustang fireblast, takes approximately a second. There's time to see the flames appear, roar up, and die down. Against all regular humans, that is enough heat to roast the body to a charred corpse. However, it's not clear that it would do that against a firebender at all. Human reaction time is between 1/10 and 1/5 of a second, and I'd give Aang and Korra the benefit of having some of the best reaction time out there, so closer to 1/10. That gives them about 9/10 of a second during which to shield themselves from the flames. Even if you assume the burning is too severe to continue halfway into the flames, they still have 4/10 of a second to protect themselves.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-07-23, 05:39 AM
Roy's explosions and fireballs are without a doubt instantly fatal if Roy chooses to make them so. Remember the charred corpse of Maria Ross, that was caused by a single application of Roy's alchemy. The corpse was in reality not a human person but you couldn't tell for the burns were so severe that all you saw was a husk.

Now against an inhuman regenerating monster that is a homunculus is his fires may not seem fatal but to a normal human you would be dead instantly.

Umm not quite what I'm getting at.

Yes he can burn people to death with relative ease and cause that level of destruction, I'm not disputing that. Its not the level it can reach but how quick, fire does just kill instantly. Normally doesn't matter to much since you need a way to be not-on-fire quickly to survive. Only that's certainly with the Avatar State's abilities and life threatening situations are what it's there for in the first place.

Now a better example would be like what Roy pulled on Lust turning water into its base elements and igniting that when his gloves were wet, but that wasn't exactly a standard trick either.

Fan
2012-07-23, 06:11 AM
We know from Zuko firebenders aren't inherently fire-proof. There's heat control in the skill set and fighting fire with fire, but I can't find anything that explicitly makes it passive in way that would work here.

However I'm curious where people get the notion Mustang is radically faster? He's not really, you need time to snap fingers and perform alchemy at least comparable to throwing a punch which is as fast as bending can be done. The real problem is his attack is effectively invisible and very accurate so is pretty impossible to dodge. I think because of this he can totally get one off on Aang.

There's a problem though... so help me its not depicted as instantly fatal. Nor is it easy for fire to do that. While this isn't a terribly big deal for an opponent in FMA it is here. Because a pretty serious blow is likely to trigger an Avatar State reaction from Aang. And since Aang doesn't need to see (tremorsense) even the little eye frying trick isn't going to be as big a finisher as it would normally be. Even aside from the AS Aang will have the opportunity to put up effective defenses so he bring his much larger scale and variety into the fight.

And going by character it doesn't fit Roy to go for instant kills when he doesn't have a personal score to settle anyways. But if Roy does, its the sort of thing that can only work once, Aang burned badly and even blind is still Aang victorious.

(Similar case for Korra who without AS would loose if Roy goes for insta-death but probably does pretty well under that threshold since she uses the simplified quick style of her era. You don't need large scale bending when you just keep your opponent off balance with a lot of little attacks.)

Aang's been put down by lesser pains before, the lightning bolt to the back shut down even the Avatar State.

I'd figure having your eyeballs boiled out of your skull would be an instant kill, the agony of having a dense nerve cluster (The optic nerve) exploded, and then your head still being on fire..

I mean, come on, let's be reasonable here. There's no way someone's standing up after that without regeneration, and if this is a blood lust scenario...

lord_khaine
2012-07-23, 06:18 AM
As long as Mustang is going serious then i would give this fight to him, Avatar state or not, simply due to the fact that in what would be a game of rocket tag, Mustang is bringing the faster and more precise rockets.


Yes he can burn people to death with relative ease and cause that level of destruction, I'm not disputing that. Its not the level it can reach but how quick, fire does not just kill instantly. Normally doesn't matter to much since you need a way to be not-on-fire quickly to survive. Only that's certainly with the Avatar State's abilities and life threatening situations are what it's there for in the first place.

I think you missed a not here?

And it would actualy depend on the heat of the flames, Mustangs does seem hot enough to instantly deliver 3rd degree burns, so if the Avatar gets tagget by one of those, then it would not matter if it triggered the Avatar State, because the shock alone would be enough to kill/knock out people, and the Avatar doesnt posses any special powers of regeneration or superhuman toughness.


Also, regarding the instant nature of the fatality, a point here. The charred body of Maria Ross, or any other single Mustang fireblast, takes approximately a second. There's time to see the flames appear, roar up, and die down. Against all regular humans, that is enough heat to roast the body to a charred corpse. However, it's not clear that it would do that against a firebender at all. Human reaction time is between 1/10 and 1/5 of a second, and I'd give Aang and Korra the benefit of having some of the best reaction time out there, so closer to 1/10. That gives them about 9/10 of a second during which to shield themselves from the flames. Even if you assume the burning is too severe to continue halfway into the flames, they still have 4/10 of a second to protect themselves.

This sounds reasonable enough, unfortunately i dont belive there is any move a bender could pull during those 4/10 second that would let them survive one of Mustangs lethal blasts.

Anyway the way i see this there is only 2 ways for the Avatar to win this, either Mustang have to not take him/her serious, or else the fight need to start at a longer range, where the Avatar can either work with making rain or throwing mountain-sized boulders at Mustang.

But this style of close engagement favors him to much, and i dont see him losing this in a fair fight.

MLai
2012-07-23, 06:33 AM
This sounds reasonable enough, unfortunately i dont belive there is any move a bender could pull during those 4/10 second that would let them survive one of Mustangs lethal blasts.
In the case of a quick flash burn by Mustang and we're not trying to assume he can ignite it inside the (fire)bender's mouth/eyesockets...

A (fire)bender doesn't have to perform a valid move. He doesn't even have to have enough time to throws his arms up. If he has the split second to flinch, he has blocked the fire. Unless it was so monumentally intense (or he was so exhausted/demoralized) that it simply overwhelms his innate defense.

He still gets hit by the concussive force of any explosion, though.

Fan
2012-07-23, 06:35 AM
In the case of a quick flash burn by Mustang and we're not trying to assume he can ignite it inside the (fire)bender's mouth/eyesockets.

A (fire)bender doesn't have to perform a valid move. He doesn't even have to have enough time to throws his arms up. If he has the split second to flinch, he has blocked the fire. Unless it was so monumentally intense (or he was so exhausted/demoralized) that it simply overwhelms his innate defense.

He still gets hit by the concussive force of any explosion, though.

Please, prove this. At all...

Firebenders get burned all the time, it's just cartoons aren't in the habit of on screen maiming.

MLai
2012-07-23, 06:41 AM
Please, prove this. At all...
Firebenders get burned all the time, it's just cartoons aren't in the habit of on screen maiming.
(1) I've been doing so in my past posts. I referred to specific episodes/ scenes/ situations that occured in the 2 series. The burden is on you (for instance), to show me the opposite: a non-firebender, not wearing fireproof suit, getting hit fully by fire, and not being burnt.

(2) Firebenders do not get burned all the time, actually. Exactly the opposite. I don't know how many times I can keep describing that.

Fan
2012-07-23, 06:46 AM
(1) I've been doing so in my past posts. I referred to specific episodes/ scenes/ situations that occured in the 2 series. The burden is on you (for instance), to show me the opposite: a non-firebender, not wearing fireproof suit, getting hit fully by fire, and not being burnt.

(2) Firebenders do not get burned all the time, actually. Exactly the opposite. I don't know how many times I can keep describing that.

And that's the exact opposite of proof, people not being burned in a children's show where burns are literally not allowed to be shown being inflicted on screen, or any actual injury that draws blood / inflicts maiming is not proof they can't be burned since it's the entire point of Zuko's character.

If reflexive flinching would've been enough, then Zuko would've not been burned.

You're "lack of burns is evidence" IS NOT EVIDENCE, but rather proof that injuries that are not allowed to be shown on TV on that network, at all, ever were in fact not shown.

As for Fire Benders getting burned? Aang. Lightning Bolt to the back, in Avatar state, inflicts lethal burn wounds.

The absence of evidence of blatantly obvious things is not evidence of absence.

WitchSlayer
2012-07-23, 06:54 AM
Besides, this should clearly be a tagteam match. Roy vs Aang and Armstrong vs Korra.

Clertar
2012-07-23, 06:55 AM
This sounds reasonable enough, unfortunately i dont belive there is any move a bender could pull during those 4/10 second that would let them survive one of Mustangs lethal blasts.

How about that? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slWPNDEWeLo&feature=player_detailpage#t=130s

Fan
2012-07-23, 06:58 AM
How about that? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slWPNDEWeLo&feature=player_detailpage#t=130s

That whole video is sped up, any speed gotten from it is incorrect.

Knaight
2012-07-23, 07:21 AM
Again, he has to be able to react to it, and 90 MPH is kinda REALLY difficult for a human starting at static speed to react to, especially since his attacks aren't telegraphed by the path of the attack (Even air has a visible travel path.), whereas Mustang's isn't.

Aang doesn't have to dodge the attack, he has to prevent the method of attack (Mustang's hand) being pointed at him to begin with. Even in the scene where Mustang repeatedly burned Envy, the snaps were lined up with the hand pointing at Envy - with the eye boiling incidents in particular being examples of that. It's the same principle as not being in the way of bullets, which travel at far more than 90 miles per hour. We've seen characters effectively dodge bullets in Full Metal Alchemist, including characters slower than Aang. Scar managed to avoid Riza at close range, and Ling's bodyguards both managed to traverse a long tunnel towards machine gun fire. Aang outpaces them both, and can probably stay out of Mustang's line of fire for some time, even if he can't actually avoid the fire after everything has gone off.

That said, it might not make a difference, given the sheer amount of firepower Mustang can manage in a short time, and how long he can keep up that rate.

Clertar
2012-07-23, 07:21 AM
I'd say that, if anything, that scene is slowed down :smallconfused:

Anarion
2012-07-23, 07:45 AM
And that's the exact opposite of proof, people not being burned in a children's show where burns are literally not allowed to be shown being inflicted on screen, or any actual injury that draws blood / inflicts maiming is not proof they can't be burned since it's the entire point of Zuko's character.

If reflexive flinching would've been enough, then Zuko would've not been burned.

You're "lack of burns is evidence" IS NOT EVIDENCE, but rather proof that injuries that are not allowed to be shown on TV on that network, at all, ever were in fact not shown.

As for Fire Benders getting burned? Aang. Lightning Bolt to the back, in Avatar state, inflicts lethal burn wounds.

The absence of evidence of blatantly obvious things is not evidence of absence.

The show is the only evidence we have to go on. You can't just do reality because there are no benders in reality. The only evidence about benders is what they do in the show and how things happen, plus a little bit of word of god. If you dismiss the show, the argument becomes pointless. I could just as well say that since FMA is an anime, they exaggerate the strength of Roy's flames to make it look cooler and we cant' trust it because it's anime and it's never realistic. Makes the discussion worthless.

What we have is that Avatar has shown us only two instances of people ever being burned. One was Zuko, who, when down and not fighting, took a concentrated blast to his face from the most powerful firebender on the planet. The other was Katara, who received light burns when she wasn't paying attention and Aang lost control of his fire. In all other cases, even with burning whole villages and the fire from Sozin's comet, we have seen firebenders suffer no damage from the heat whatsoever.


I'd say that, if anything, that scene is slowed down :smallconfused:

This however, is incorrect. The video you linked is played at 2x speed, so everything shown in it needs to cut in half (or times need to be doubled). If you happen to think a particular scene was played in slow motion, you still need to cut that speed in half to try to figure out what was actually happening.

Traab
2012-07-23, 07:49 AM
How about that? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slWPNDEWeLo&feature=player_detailpage#t=130s

That shows him blocking an incoming fireball, not getting rid of the fire that is already on him. He might, MIGHT be able to stop from burning to death the first time he gets immolated, but he is still going to take horrific damage in that instant that his entire body is on fire, and I doubt he could block it again at that point. That is honestly the biggest difference here between a firebender and roy. You can see the huge honking fireball heading towards you and block it/dodge it. Roy snaps his fingers, a spark lights up then FWOOSH your body has just entirely caught fire. Or maybe just a specific part of it, whatever he wants to do. MAYBE aang would have the presence of mind to extinguish the flame the instant he catches fire, but that instant is all it takes to char the outer layer of flesh, so he is still done.

lord_khaine
2012-07-23, 08:24 AM
And that's the exact opposite of proof, people not being burned in a children's show where burns are literally not allowed to be shown being inflicted on screen, or any actual injury that draws blood / inflicts maiming is not proof they can't be burned since it's the entire point of Zuko's character.

If reflexive flinching would've been enough, then Zuko would've not been burned.

You're "lack of burns is evidence" IS NOT EVIDENCE, but rather proof that injuries that are not allowed to be shown on TV on that network, at all, ever were in fact not shown.

As for Fire Benders getting burned? Aang. Lightning Bolt to the back, in Avatar state, inflicts lethal burn wounds.

The absence of evidence of blatantly obvious things is not evidence of absence.


The show is the only evidence we have to go on. You can't just do reality because there are no benders in reality. The only evidence about benders is what they do in the show and how things happen, plus a little bit of word of god. If you dismiss the show, the argument becomes pointless. I could just as well say that since FMA is an anime, they exaggerate the strength of Roy's flames to make it look cooler and we cant' trust it because it's anime and it's never realistic. Makes the discussion worthless.

What we have is that Avatar has shown us only two instances of people ever being burned. One was Zuko, who, when down and not fighting, took a concentrated blast to his face from the most powerful firebender on the planet. The other was Katara, who received light burns when she wasn't paying attention and Aang lost control of his fire. In all other cases, even with burning whole villages and the fire from Sozin's comet, we have seen firebenders suffer no damage from the heat whatsoever.

Im with Fan on this one, If firebenders didnt get burned, while everyone else did, then we would have proof of firebenders not being able to get burned.

But when noone actualy gets burned from combat then its a sign of a Kids show.

Also, we havent seen a singel case of a firebender getting hit by an attack that should have burned him, but where it didnt happen.

Clertar
2012-07-23, 08:25 AM
IRT Traab:

Fair enough. Let's forget about Aang vs. Ozai, then. I posted that to illustrate how a firebender can sometimes be engulfed and/or hit with fire and still be able to avoid getting burnt, like Zhao here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LS1w7UfZ6To#t=79s

... or Zuko here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LS1w7UfZ6To#t=88s

(Edit) Also answers Lord Khaine: "Also, we havent seen a singel case of a firebender getting hit by an attack that should have burned him, but where it didnt happen."

Anarion
2012-07-23, 08:41 AM
Im with Fan on this one, If firebenders didnt get burned, while everyone else did, then we would have proof of firebenders not being able to get burned.

But when noone actualy gets burned from combat then its a sign of a Kids show.

Also, we havent seen a singel case of a firebender getting hit by an attack that should have burned him, but where it didnt happen.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never made an argument about firebenders. My opinion is that all benders are capable of deflecting all elements to a greater or lesser degree. It's possible that Roy's fire is too fast and could take someone by surprise. However, if you imagine the Avatar having already taken a stance and facing off against Roy, I do think that 4/10 of a second would be enough to deflect most of the fire.

Traab
2012-07-23, 08:56 AM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I never made an argument about firebenders. My opinion is that all benders are capable of deflecting all elements to a greater or lesser degree. It's possible that Roy's fire is too fast and could take someone by surprise. However, if you imagine the Avatar having already taken a stance and facing off against Roy, I do think that 4/10 of a second would be enough to deflect most of the fire.

Yes, we see clear evidence that benders can block/deflect fire attacks and other elements with their own, but the problem is speed. In some of that roy versus envy fight, we see the flash of fire look like one of those high speed shots of high explosive where the fuse is going off to the bomb. In others there is no ultra fast trail of fire, its just boom, fire is there. You cant block that.

He USES air for his explosives, so a wind shield is a dumb idea. He can apparently break apart water and turn it into explosives, so using that to shield is a bad idea, earth would work to block, but it would also block aangs view of roy, making him vulnerable to attacks, so thats a bad idea. And fighting fire with fire just seems like another bad idea to me, I think roys transmutation circle is what manipulates the air pockets right? He wont even have to snap his fingers because the fire is already there, he just has to transmute the air pocket and let aangs fire shield explode. So basically, aang cant keep up a shield over his whole body to protect himself, and there is no incoming wall of fire for him to see and react to to bring up a temporary shield. Aaang will burn.

MLai
2012-07-23, 09:10 AM
Fan & Khaine: You're "lack of burns is evidence" IS NOT EVIDENCE, but rather proof that injuries that are not allowed to be shown on TV on that network, at all, ever were in fact not shown.
As for Fire Benders getting burned? Aang. Lightning Bolt to the back, in Avatar state, inflicts lethal burn wounds.
(1) Here's the difference, even taking into account ratings restrictions:

--> Firebenders are allowed to get fully hit by fire and not be burnt, with clear camera coverage. For examples, see the vids Clertar linked. Also see Korra's entire fight against her fire-instructors in the very first episode of LoK. The instructors were so unable to fend off Korra's power they were thrown back 10 ft with their clothes smoking, and they pass out. Yet their skin isn't burnt.

--> However, to make sure non-firebenders do not get burnt on TV, the writers always weasel out of the situation. Either the non-firebender is wearing asbestos full-body suit. Or he/she manages to dodge in time. Never do you see the non-firebender get smacked with fire and simply not be burnt (contrast this with the firebenders). The only time you do, you see Katara easily burnt by a small flame from Aang.

(2) Lightning is not fire. If it was, then Iroh wouldn't have to teach Zuko an unique way to defend against it. I never said a firebender is immune to burn wounds; I said they have passive defense to fire.

Clertar
2012-07-23, 09:18 AM
There's some bending that can be done without wushu/kungfu motions (like waterbending-swimming, or Roku's earthbending diving). I don't believe firebendes have any immunity to fire, but they can pretty clearly use their firebending in a similar fashion to protect themselves from fire even if they don't counter it with a firebending movement.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 09:23 AM
I did some searching, and I found a better quality video of the Avatar vs Ozai. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFn2Kd7vI9s&feature=related) Feel free to use it to judge the Avatar's abilities. Brief reminder; Fire Bending, which Lightning Bending is the parent of and is part of, was powered up by the Comet at this time.

My biggest note is that, even with the Tremor Sense of Ozai about to attack, both Ozai and Aang have about 1-2 seconds of posing before either actively bend, with Aang having enough knowledge of Ozai's attack to bind him and block it.

Would that work against Roy, who doesn't have to touch the floor, and get himself into a full on fighting stance, before throwing a punch, but just has to raise his arm and snap his finger?

I will admit, I did try to check on whether or not Roy needs line of sight / dirrectional aiming to hit his target, and I actually haven't seen conclusive evidence that he doesn't. From his fight against the minions of the Doctor, if anything, I've got to admit that he does seem to be forced to actually dirrect his Alchemy. +1 point to the Avatar Side; there is no evidence suggesting that Flame Alchemy can be used without proper aiming or line of sight, and there are, infact, cases against it (Roy had to have Hawk Eye tell him where to fire when he was blinded, for the case against blind Flame Alchemy).

Still, much easier to point and snap your finger at someone than to throw a genuine punch, otherwise I don't see why Ozai needed to try to get up before attacking Aang at the end.

And there's still the massive advantage that, rather than firing Hadokens, Roy's got essentially Golden Gun action going on. Even if Aang is durable, I can't imagine anyone being able to focus nearly as well with their tongue turned to grease and eyeball fluid boiled, which can be done significantly faster than regular firebending.

One other thing; it was speed up in parts, but there was proof in a video that the Avatar is most -definitely- not Fireproof, even in the Avatar State. Lightning Bending, being a subset of Firebending, was used to outright knock him -out- of the Avatar State, and almost killed him. Azula & Zuko vs Aang & Katara. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfTgfmp_PZ8&feature=related)


(2) Lightning is not fire. If it was, then Iroh wouldn't have to teach Zuko an unique way to defend against it.

Why does needing a special defence for it, it being the most advanced and powerful level of firebending outside of dirrect comet enhanced bending, make it not firebending? Blood Bending and Ice Bending is still Water, as is Metal to Earth.

Anarion
2012-07-23, 09:27 AM
He USES air for his explosives, so a wind shield is a dumb idea. He can apparently break apart water and turn it into explosives, so using that to shield is a bad idea, earth would work to block, but it would also block aangs view of roy, making him vulnerable to attacks, so thats a bad idea. And fighting fire with fire just seems like another bad idea to me, I think roys transmutation circle is what manipulates the air pockets right? He wont even have to snap his fingers because the fire is already there, he just has to transmute the air pocket and let aangs fire shield explode. So basically, aang cant keep up a shield over his whole body to protect himself, and there is no incoming wall of fire for him to see and react to to bring up a temporary shield. Aaang will burn.

My claim is that Aang doesn't need a shield. Let Roy's flame hit him and begin to engulf him. It starts to get hot, he's entirely surrounded by fire, but he has 4/10 of a second to bend it and protect himself from the heat. Fire subsides, Aang is maybe a little flushed, but not injured. Roy does the same thing, Aang bends it again. Eventually he keeps hold of some of Roy's fire and starts turning it back on Roy, going on the offensive and mixing it with the other elements.

The challenge then becomes an issue of reflexes. If Aang can't adequately protect himself in that 4/10 of a second, he's dead. If he can, he wins. If he gets a little hurt but can prevent the worst of it, the fight ends up being an issue of whether Aang can break out after Roy's first couple attacks and counter.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 09:32 AM
My claim is that Aang doesn't need a shield. Let Roy's flame hit him and begin to engulf him. It starts to get hot

.... this sounds like a terribly bad idea. Especially since Roy's sparks go from 0-TongueMouthGrease.

Otherwise, I agree that if Aang can survive the first hits by starting to find a way to bend and defend against the flames, if his reflexes can keep up with that level of speed and power, then he'd survive the fight.

MLai
2012-07-23, 09:35 AM
In some of that roy versus envy fight, we see the flash of fire look like one of those high speed shots of high explosive where the fuse is going off to the bomb. In others there is no ultra fast trail of fire, its just boom, fire is there. You cant block that.
It's 2 ways of depicting Roy using the same technique. Roy doesn't have 1 technique where there is no spark trail, and 1 technique where there is. He always uses a spark trail. As already discussed by someone else, whenever you don't see a trail, it's simply a cinematic ploy when Roy is offscreen, to make his technique seem more mysterious and badass. In truth, there is always a spark trail.

Aang and other top benders can dodge lightning. Which moves at the speed of electricity. They can do that because the lightning user has to point at them.

As someone said, Roy has to point his arm towards you before he snaps his fingers. Even if his spark trail moves at the speed of electricity, Aang can still dodge it as long as he knows it's coming.


He USES air for his explosives, so a wind shield is a dumb idea.
No. He has to isolate a pocket of air and alter it, to make his air-bomb. Moving air (wind shield) will disrupt both his air-bomb and his spark trail. Fuhrer-Wrath demonstrated this weakness. It's not A++ canon, but it's still way more canon than any guesses we're making here.


And fighting fire with fire just seems like another bad idea to me, I think roys transmutation circle is what manipulates the air pockets right? He wont even have to snap his fingers because the fire is already there, he just has to transmute the air pocket and let aangs fire shield explode.
While I agree Roy can use fire that's already there, I don't think this is true. The fire we're talking about is fire already under the conscious control of the bender. It's like an extension of his body, and any sudden alteration caused by Roy will be felt by the bender instantly. As long as the bender is skilled and powerful, he can adjust instantly and not have the fire blow up in his face.


INo: Why does needing a special defence for it, it being the most advanced and powerful level of firebending outside of dirrect comet enhanced bending, make it not firebending?
Because I'm not trying to paint firebenders as supermen, merely that they're not as easy prey to Roy's gunslinger-alchemy as people seem to think. So until Roy can snap his fingers and engulf someone in ball lightning, lightning-bending is irrelevant AFAIC.

Clertar
2012-07-23, 09:37 AM
I agree with INotKnowNames in general (I was making a point for an avatar, but I'm not entirely sure of the outcome of such a fight; also, FMA bored me halfway through and I dropped it, so I might very well be lacking knowledge on Roy). Still, I find it plausible that a fully realized avatar, regardless of their native element, could stand a chance of "firebending" alchemical fire explosions really close or touching them and thus protect themselves.

The way I see it, it depends a lot on that. If we agree an avatar (or a powerful firebender, for that matter) cannot do that, then it's out of the question. If we consider that they have this ability (and I think there's evidence for that in A:LA and A:LOK), then it would depend on how quickly the avatar could neutralise Roy before being shot with too much fire to withstand. I still think an avatar like Aang at the end of the series (and probably much more so an adult Aang like the one we see in LOK) would stand a fair chance if they could dispel the first couple of attacks from Roy. Aang can both attack very quickly and maneouver outside of Roy's range (earth tunneling, waterbending-powered diving) while still being able to launch fast and powerful attacks.

Edit: also, regarding the lightning bolt from Azula that knocked Aang out of Avatar State, it happened like that because it hit a specific chi-flow point.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 09:48 AM
Aang and other top benders can dodge lightning. Which moves at the speed of electricity. They can do that because the lightning user has to point at them.

As someone said, Roy has to point his arm towards you before he snaps his fingers. Even if his spark trail moves at the speed of electricity, Aang can still dodge it as long as he knows it's coming.

The issue is that, in the Avatar Universe, Lightning Bending isn't that much faster than Firebending. In the final fight, both against Ozai and Azula, the heroes have enough time to watch the trail and the attack coming and -still- move to get out of it's way, made oh-so-apparent when Zuko has time to get into a defensive pose as he watches the wind up of Azula's attack, then drop it and -jump- infront of Katara to save her.

Real Lightning isn't that slow, and FMA opperates a bit closer to real world physics and principles than the avatar does... at least until the mind **** parts, which I won't even bother trying to defend.


No. He has to isolate a pocket of air and alter it, to make his air-bomb. Moving air (wind shield) will disrupt both his air-bomb and his spark trail. Fuhrer-Wrath demonstrated this weakness. It's not A++ canon, but it's still way more canon than any guesses we're making here.

I know this fight occured, but I'm having trouble finding it. Care to show it to us all? Put the dicussion to rest with materials.


While I agree Roy can use fire that's already there, I don't think this is true. The fire we're talking about is fire already under the conscious control of the bender. It's like an extension of his body, and any sudden alteration caused by Roy will be felt by the bender instantly. As long as the bender is skilled and powerful, he can adjust instantly and not have the fire blow up in his face.

The bender isn't making different types of Fire, and the Fire doesn't require any manipulation. Roy just has to modify the air at wherever he wants blown up, just near to the fire, and that's enough to make his explosion. Otherwise, his ability to keep going with matches when his gloves are messed up probably wouldn't work.


Because I'm not trying to paint firebenders as supermen, merely that they're not as easy prey to Roy's gunslinger-alchemy as people seem to think. So until Roy can snap his fingers and engulf someone in ball lightning, lightning-bending is irrelevant AFAIC.

I'm not sure if you actually answered my question. I'll state it again:

Prove that Lightning Bending, just like Blood and Ice to Water, and Metal to Earth, isn't a form of Firebending, to try to take away one more piece of evidence against the idea that Firebenders are invunerable to Fire. Being advanced enough to require it's own defense and study doesn't mean it isn't part of that same family. Otherwise there'd be Lightning Benders that weren't also Firebenders.


I agree with INotKnowNames in general (I was making a point for an avatar, but I'm not entirely sure of the outcome of such a fight; also, FMA bored me halfway through and I dropped it, so I might very well be lacking knowledge on Roy). Still, I find it plausible that a fully realized avatar, regardless of their native element, could stand a chance of "firebending" alchemical fire explosions really close or touching them and thus protect themselves.

The way I see it, it depends a lot on that. If we agree an avatar (or a powerful firebender, for that matter) cannot do that, then it's out of the question. If we consider that they have this ability (and I think there's evidence for that in A:LA and A:LOK), then it would depend on how quickly the avatar could neutralise Roy before being shot with too much fire to withstand. I still think an avatar like Aang at the end of the series (and probably much more so an adult Aang like the one we see in LOK) would stand a fair chance if they could dispel the first couple of attacks from Roy. Aang can both attach very quickly and maneouver outside of Roy's range (earth tunneling, waterbending-powered diving) while still being able to launch fast and powerful attacks.

Edit: also, regarding the lightning bolt from Azula that knocked Aang out of Avatar State, it happened like that because it hit a specific chi-flow point.

I agree with you, and not just because you agree with me :smalltongue:, but I'm far less optimistic about defending against said Alchemy. I feel like by the time they've had to deal with the shockwave of a grenade teleported into vital parts, it might be a bit too late to defend ones self. Granted, if they could, then the fight's won.

However, I don't really remember any evidence of being able to defend against such fast, strong, and instant attacks like that... care to elaborate?

And what do you mean it hit a specific chi-flow point? I thought that was just about how it almost permanently disabled the avatar state, after Aang was brought back from being almost dead. Certainly doesn't look like it hit anything specific... certainly doesn't look like any specific aiming. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FfTgfmp_PZ8#t=230s)

Also, it's funny how I quoted that, then only thought afterwards to respond to it, even though I looked up the video evidence I was going to use... took me a second to remember what I looked it up for.

Traab
2012-07-23, 09:51 AM
It's 2 ways of depicting Roy using the same technique. Roy doesn't have 1 technique where there is no spark trail, and 1 technique where there is. He always uses a spark trail. As already discussed by someone else, whenever you don't see a trail, it's simply a cinematic ploy when Roy is offscreen, to make his technique seem more mysterious and badass. In truth, there is always a spark trail.

Aang and other top benders can dodge lightning. Which moves at the speed of electricity. They can do that because the lightning user has to point at them.

As someone said, Roy has to point his arm towards you before he snaps his fingers. Even if his spark trail moves at the speed of electricity, Aang can still dodge it as long as he knows it's coming.


No. He has to isolate a pocket of air and alter it, to make his air-bomb. Moving air (wind shield) will disrupt both his air-bomb and his spark trail. Fuhrer-Wrath demonstrated this weakness. It's not A++ canon, but it's still way more canon than any guesses we're making here.


While I agree Roy can use fire that's already there, I don't think this is true. The fire we're talking about is fire already under the conscious control of the bender. It's like an extension of his body, and any sudden alteration caused by Roy will be felt by the bender instantly. As long as the bender is skilled and powerful, he can adjust instantly and not have the fire blow up in his face.


Because I'm not trying to paint firebenders as supermen, merely that they're not as easy prey to Roy's gunslinger-alchemy as people seem to think. So until Roy can snap his fingers and engulf someone in ball lightning, lightning-bending is irrelevant AFAIC.

1) True, there is one technique, but still, the point is even with the fire trail, its so fast you can only barely spot it when you are specifically looking at it. In the final fight scene with ozai, aang has time to realize he is about to get blasted, gasp, see the attack coming and use wind to protect himself from the flame thrower attack. Mustangs seems to move near instantly. Snap, half beat, boom.

2) Even if that is the case, mustang can still set off explosions right outside the shield, letting the concussive force send aang flying. Watch it at 45 seconds in (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwZLjKh2GXA&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLAFC79C802D466965) Roy is fully capable of shattering the earth at his feet in a huge explosion sending aang flying. So even if he cant just use the wind in that wind shield, he can still cause huge damage from just outside it. That wind shield isnt all powerful.

3) Yeah its under aangs control, but roy doesnt have to do anything to the fire, just create the super explosive pocket of air and let the fire already there ignite it. Kaboom

*EDIT* I apologize for the horrible video music, I couldnt find a non musical version of it offhand.

AmberVael
2012-07-23, 10:06 AM
He can apparently break apart water and turn it into explosives, so using that to shield is a bad idea
While Roy can do this and do this in a fairly terrifying and effective way, he has to be touching it, or at least something directly linked to it- that's how Alchemy works. Assuming he's attacking at long range (something he typically does) he's not going to be able to use his alchemy to blow up a water shield.


Earth would work to block, but it would also block aangs view of roy, making him vulnerable to attacks, so thats a bad idea.
The bender could just make earth armor, which has seemed fairly effective against fire. Or he could just make a moving wall of earth that blocks the attack and also smashes the person. Or just throw a rock off the top, which I'm pretty sure is something that was shown in the anime.


And fighting fire with fire just seems like another bad idea to me, I think roys transmutation circle is what manipulates the air pockets right? He wont even have to snap his fingers because the fire is already there, he just has to transmute the air pocket and let aangs fire shield explode. So basically, aang cant keep up a shield over his whole body to protect himself, and there is no incoming wall of fire for him to see and react to to bring up a temporary shield. Aaang will burn.
If you're going to firebend to protect yourself from fire, that's not how you'd do it at all. Firebenders have pretty crazy defenses against fire, even if you disagree that they have a passive defense.

As I recall, someone said Korra would dive right at Roy- and I'm inclined to agree. However, I'm less inclined to think it would be a terribly bad tactic given that in her firebending training scene, she did just that against a giant flamethrower attack, bent the fire around her, and proceeded to beat the guy.

In fact, yeah, just watch this. (http://www.nick.com/videos/clip/legend-of-korra-firebending-training-clip.html) Her reaction times are amazing, her ability to deal with all fire attacks thrown at her (from multiple sides) is notable and consistent, and she's definitely not having to use fire to block at all- she can just make it go away. I do think Roy is faster, but I'm not so sure he's fast enough to overcome someone like that.

Granted, I'm pretty sure Korra is way better at dealing with fire than Aang, so that may be specific to her fight.


By the way... can Mustang make blasts that are truly explosive? I can't remember any offhand, but while thinking about it, I remembered that in his fight against Lust a simple stone barrier (much like what an earthbender would put up) protected the people on the other side from even the homunculus destroying firepower he tossed out. It could be that he did that on purpose, but since I don't actually remember any explosive attacks...

And by explosive, I mean more than just a big burst of fire- he can very clearly do that, I mean something with the capability to destruct heavy objects. Firebending obviously has a lot of force to it, which is why it can do things like blast through walls and earthbending, but I'm not sure flame alchemy actually does. Still, I'm not sure enough on the point to make a claim about it, so this is just a question.

Traab
2012-07-23, 10:12 AM
Watch my video link, roy is clearly setting off explosions.

Clertar
2012-07-23, 10:15 AM
I feel like by the time they've had to deal with the shockwave of a grenade teleported into vital parts, it might be a bit too late to defend ones self. Granted, if they could, then the fight's won.

However, I don't really remember any evidence of being able to defend against such fast, strong, and instant attacks like that... care to elaborate?

And what do you mean it hit a specific chi-flow point? I thought that was just about how it almost permanently disabled the avatar state, after Aang was brought back from being almost dead. Certainly doesn't look like it hit anything specific... certainly doesn't look like any specific aiming. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FfTgfmp_PZ8#t=230s)



Regarding defensive firebending, I posted two videos of that before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...w7UfZ6To#t=79s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LS1w7UfZ6To#t=79s)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...w7UfZ6To#t=88s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LS1w7UfZ6To#t=88s)

My argument:
There's some bending that can be done without wushu/kungfu motions (like waterbending-swimming, or Roku's earthbending diving). I don't believe firebenders have any immunity to fire, but they can pretty clearly use their firebending in a similar "still" fashion to protect themselves from fire even if they don't counter it with a firebending movement.

Of course we don't see in the show whether that would work as well against the type of attack that Roy would use, simplye because it doesn't exist in the avatar world. You use the phrase "teleported into vital parts", but as far as I rememeber that's not exactly how the alchemy that Roy Mustang uses works; doesn't there need to be some connection between the sparks from his gloves (or the fire from a lighter, etc) and the transmuted air that will become the fire explosion? Could he, for example, set someone's liver in fire, instead of something exterior like a tongue or eyes?

The issue is this: would what we see in those linked scenes (a firebender getting fully hit with fire attacks managing to ward against the fire) still work with Roy? For example: Aang would be able to detect some very "powerful firebending" after just a couple of attacks; if Roy isn't aiming at something tricky, but instead Aang's body, I think there's a fair chance that Aang would be able to ward against it with his firebending. One second later he's in a tunnel under the earth, and from there he can safely launch massive earthbending attacks against Roy, using his tremor sense to know where he is standing.

The scenario above is something I find plausible, but I don't think that it would be an easy fight by any means.

Now, regarding Azula's lightning shot, it is later stated in the show that the spot on Aang's spine where it hit him is a chakra spot that blocks the Avatar State (I don't remember if the show further elaborates on whether this was planned by Azula or just chance). So the fact that the hit knocked Aang out is a coincidence.

Still, in Mustang's case, unless he attacked Aang from behind, that would be different. An avatar that has mastered all four elements can enter the Avatar State at will, and there I think he'd have a much bigger advantage against Roy. The air shield that Aang surrounds himself with when he enters Avatar state (when it's not the classical 4-element shiel) would disrupt the connection between the spark/flame on Roy's hand and the transmuted air surrounding or touching Aang, so then Roy would only be able to generate fire outside of the Avatar's protective field. In just one second an airbender can shot a couple of wind blows that can send someone flying back, or trap someone in stone (actually making the stone prison's spikes pierce someone's skull wouldn't make much difference, either), or trap them in ice.

MLai
2012-07-23, 10:19 AM
INo: Real Lightning isn't that slow, and FMA opperates a bit closer to real world physics and principles than the avatar does... at least until the--
LOL, until the Metal Vs Flame episode? Where Ed is scampering around like a rat in the open courtyard, and still manages to dodge Roy's explosions. Though I guess you can say Roy's taking it easy on him.

As for the Roy vs Fuhrer fight in FMA... I remember it because I like FMA, doesn't mean I know where it is on Youtube though.


INo & Traab: The bender isn't making different types of Fire, and the Fire doesn't require any manipulation. Roy just has to modify the air at wherever he wants blown up, just near to the fire, and that's enough to make his explosion.
He could make "land mines" near the firebending firebender. This is true.


Prove that Lightning Bending, just like Blood and Ice to Water, and Metal to Earth, isn't a form of Firebending, to try to take away one more piece of evidence against the idea that Firebenders are invunerable to Fire.
I never said firebenders are invulnerable to fire.
I never said firebenders are invulnerable to lightning.
I never said firebenders are immune from getting burn wounds.
I said firebenders have passive resistance to fire (not lightning).


Traab: Roy is fully capable of shattering the earth at his feet in a huge explosion sending aang flying.
Ok, finally someone shows me that Roy is capable of SSB Man's level of explosive power. So yes, Roy can use that to knock out a firebender with concussive force, even if the associated flames won't burn the firebender.

Makes me wonder why Roy never just blew a Homonculus's head off. Just set off an explosion right below the chin, doesn't even have to be big. He wanted to torture Envy, but I don't remember if he was angry like that against Lust.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 10:22 AM
While Roy can do this and do this in a fairly terrifying and effective way, he has to be touching it, or at least something directly linked to it- that's how Alchemy works. Assuming he's attacking at long range (something he typically does) he's not going to be able to use his alchemy to blow up a water shield.

Actually, where does it say he has to be touching it? I was under the assumption that most of the Alchemy work is, again, done by having Gloves or Scars that bear the Flame Alchemy Symbol, and just finding a heat source to use as a catalyst.

Also, you were the one that got me to look it up and determine that Roy had to actually target people, since making bombs without actually trying to aim is as suicidal as trying to defend yourself from your mouth exploding by blocking the explosion.


The bender could just make earth armor, which has seemed fairly effective against fire. Or he could just make a moving wall of earth that blocks the attack and also smashes the person. Or just throw a rock off the top, which I'm pretty sure is something that was shown in the anime.

Indeed it was, and it certainly would stop Roy from fire... not completely sure about it against his bombs, though.


As I recall, someone said Korra would dive right at Roy- and I'm inclined to agree. However, I'm less inclined to think it would be a terribly bad tactic given that in her firebending training scene, she did just that against a giant flamethrower attack, bent the fire around her, and proceeded to beat the guy.

In fact, yeah, just watch this. (http://www.nick.com/videos/clip/legend-of-korra-firebending-training-clip.html) Her reaction times are amazing, her ability to deal with all fire attacks thrown at her (from multiple sides) is notable and consistent, and she's definitely not having to use fire to block at all- she can just make it go away. I do think Roy is faster, but I'm not so sure he's fast enough to overcome someone like that.

Granted, I'm pretty sure Korra is way better at dealing with fire than Aang, so that may be specific to her fight.

I still submit that the Fireballs, merely by the fact that -everyone- can watch them as they come, still just aren't the same as Air Bombs... a second to launch the attack and a second for it to hit the target isn't too practical...

Although now that you mention it, I bet Korra would be able to defend better than Aang, being a much more native Firebender, and thus having far more experience.


By the way... can Mustang make blasts that are truly explosive? I can't remember any offhand, but while thinking about it, I remembered that in his fight against Lust a simple stone barrier (much like what an earthbender would put up) protected the people on the other side from even the homunculus destroying firepower he tossed out. It could be that he did that on purpose, but since I don't actually remember any explosive attacks...

And by explosive, I mean more than just a big burst of fire- he can very clearly do that, I mean something with the capability to destruct heavy objects. Firebending obviously has a lot of force to it, which is why it can do things like blast through walls and earthbending, but I'm not sure flame alchemy actually does. Still, I'm not sure enough on the point to make a claim about it, so this is just a question.

In his fight against Ed, he blew up Ed's Earth Cannon in 1 shot. Actually, he chased Ed around with multiple explosions, toying with him. I had been assuming he had been using Explosive based Alchemy against Envy when he grenaded Envy's mouth and eyes, and have been under the assumption that it was the "I drop a bomb in your face" attack that Roy would start with, rather than "I ignite the air".

If he fights like a Firebender, starting the explosion and the flame path near him and igniting all of the air toward his opponent, I'd give the fight to Aang easily, actually. I've been only on Roy's side because I saw how he fights when he truly wants the enemy dead, ie "Hi. By the time I finished saying 'Hi', you should be on the ground because I just made you eat a grenade". Snap-Spark-Dead.

Traab
2012-07-23, 10:24 AM
LOL, until the Metal Vs Flame episode? Where Ed is scampering around like a rat in the open courtyard, and still manages to dodge Roy's explosions. Though I guess you can say Roy's taking it easy on him.

As for the Roy vs Fuhrer fight in FMA... I remember it because I like FMA, doesn't mean I know where it is on Youtube though.


He could make "land mines" near the firebending firebender. This is true.


I never said firebenders are invulnerable to fire.
I never said firebenders are invulnerable to lightning.
I never said firebenders are immune from getting burn wounds.
I said firebenders have passive resistance to fire (not lightning).


Ok, finally someone shows me that Roy is capable of SSB Man's level of explosive power. So yes, Roy can use that to knock out a firebender with concussive force, even if the associated flames won't burn the firebender.

Makes me wonder why Roy never just blew a Homonculus's head off. Just set off an explosion right below the chin, doesn't even have to be big. He wanted to torture Envy, but I don't remember if he was angry like that against Lust.

It would have just grown back. Better to fully cripple the homunculus with each shot, so it cant just charge through the flames and stab him in the face. Plus, I think they were stronger than humans, so setting off an explosion like that might have done little of worth compared to just burning their entire bodies.

AmberVael
2012-07-23, 10:33 AM
Actually, where does it say he has to be touching it? I was under the assumption that most of the Alchemy work is, again, done by having Gloves or Scars that bear the Flame Alchemy Symbol, and just finding a heat source to use as a catalyst.

This is a common trait to all Alchemy. You have to touch whatever you're transmuting. Roy can do his Flame Alchemy at a distance because he's transmuting the air, and makes a path through the air for his fire to follow. He's still touching what he's transmuting, it just gives him an apparent range that most Alchemy doesn't have.

Now, you can transmute things at a bit of a distance if you're touching a contiguous substance- like if you were to transmute the ground, you might transmute an earth hand out of it a short distance away from yourself, because technically you're still transmuting a single object that you're touching. The only truly ranged alchemy though is done via Alkahestry, the Alchemy from Xing (And even that requires some form of transmutation circle on the target to be transmuted).

So if a waterbender were to pull out a shield of water and leave it connected to a river, and Roy were to transmute the river- that could possibly work. But if they just have their own glob of water that they're defending themselves with, he can't transmute it unless he gets up close.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 10:38 AM
Regarding defensive firebending, I posted two videos of that before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...w7UfZ6To#t=79s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...w7UfZ6To#t=88s

I don't believe firebenders have any immunity to fire, but they can pretty clearly use their firebending in a similar "still" fashion to protect themselves from fire even if they don't counter it with a firebending movement.

Is my internet messed up? 'cause those ones aren't playing...

I remember something being posted about Zuko vs Zhao, and while you can defend against Fire, I'm still not seeing the defending against a Grenade in your face...

I like Video games, so let me explain it in a way that might make sense: having the reflexes to block and counter a Hadoken is much easier than trying to block the freaking Golden Gun.


My argument:
There's some bending that can be done without wushu/kungfu motions (like waterbending-swimming, or Roku's earthbending diving).

It still seemed to take Aang time to get the Water Bending Swimming going, even at the season finale, if I remember right.


Of course we don't see in the show whether that would work as well against the type of attack that Roy would use, simplye because it doesn't exist in the avatar world. You use the phrase "teleported into vital parts", but as far as I rememeber that's not exactly how the alchemy that Roy Mustang uses works; doesn't there need to be some connection between the sparks from his gloves (or the fire from a lighter, etc) and the transmuted air that will become the fire explosion? Could he, for example, set someone's liver in fire, instead of something exterior like a tongue or eyes?

I was being a bit too descriptive, then. Although if someone teleported an explosion into my tongue, or eyes, or right infront of, say, my crotch (never saw him do it, but you know he could, and I think that's what I was earlier refering to when I said "vital parts", I know I'd be ****ing hurt from it. But there's no evidence of him being able to do too much exploding from the inside out without a nice clear shot.


The issue is this: would what we see in those linked scenes (a firebender getting fully hit with fire attacks managing to ward against the fire) still work with Roy? For example: Aang would be able to detect some very "powerful firebending" after just a couple of attacks; if Roy isn't aiming at something tricky, but instead Aang's body, I think there's a fair chance that Aang would be able to ward against it with his firebending. One second later he's in a tunnel under the earth, and from there he can safely launch massive earthbending attacks against Roy, using his tremor sense to know where he is standing.

The scenario above is something I find plausible, but I don't think that it would be an easy fight by any means.

It's totally Rocket Tag... if Aang goes first, he can defend and retaliate. If he doesn't, he just lost both his eyes or his tongue (and I doubt Roy would be unable to explode all 3), and the pain from that kind of damage (which, you have to admit, far surpases most ATLA/LOK style combat injuries) leaves him at Roy's mercy.


Now, regarding Azula's lightning shot, it is later stated in the show that the spot on Aang's spine where it hit him is a chakra spot that blocks the Avatar State (I don't remember if the show further elaborates on whether this was planned by Azula or just chance). So the fact that the hit knocked Aang out is a coincidence.

I'm not arguing against you, or the show. I just find it dumb that she shot him in the face, and the damage came from behind him, despite having hit his entire freaking body.


LOL, until the Metal Vs Flame episode? Where Ed is scampering around like a rat in the open courtyard, and still manages to dodge Roy's explosions. Though I guess you can say Roy's taking it easy on him.

No one who poses with Sparkles can be remotely taken seriously. Except Alex Louise Armstrong; the only man allowed to Sparkle the Strong Arm Alchemist. I'm pretty sure Roy fully admited he wasn't taking the joke of a fight seriously, and never really considered Ed a threat. Ed only won because Roy had a war-style episode in the fight, and even then it was down to a draw.


As for the Roy vs Fuhrer fight in FMA... I remember it because I like FMA, doesn't mean I know where it is on Youtube though.

Damn... I wanted to watch that fight...


I never said firebenders are invulnerable to fire.
I never said firebenders are invulnerable to lightning.
I never said firebenders are immune from getting burn wounds.
I said firebenders have passive resistance to fire (not lightning).


All this stats debate on what Roy can and can't do seems to forget one thing: Fire does not burn a firebender.

:smallconfused:


Makes me wonder why Roy never just blew a Homonculus's head off. Just set off an explosion right below the chin, doesn't even have to be big. He wanted to torture Envy, but I don't remember if he was angry like that against Lust.

Most Homunculi were -INCREDIBLY- durable. And even then, it took them a lot of energy from their own philosopher stones to keep regenerating after Roy took it to them. If they were just regular people, Roy would have oblitterated Envy in an X-Ratedly Graphic scene the second he tried the "I'll turn your tongue into a bubbling goo!" trick.


This is a common trait to all Alchemy. You have to touch whatever you're transmuting. Roy can do his Flame Alchemy at a distance because he's transmuting the air, and makes a path through the air for his fire to follow. He's still touching what he's transmuting, it just gives him an apparent range that most Alchemy doesn't have.

Now, you can transmute things at a bit of a distance if you're touching a contiguous substance- like if you were to transmute the ground, you might transmute an earth hand out of it a short distance away from yourself, because technically you're still transmuting a single object that you're touching. The only truly ranged alchemy though is done via Alkahestry, the Alchemy from Xing (And even that requires some form of transmutation circle on the target to be transmuted).

So if a waterbender were to pull out a shield of water and leave it connected to a river, and Roy were to transmute the river- that could possibly work. But if they just have their own glob of water that they're defending themselves with, he can't transmute it unless he gets up close.

I don't know quite enough about Roy's hydrogen bomb / oxidation alchemy technique to judge how he'd quite handle water bending, beyond trying to beat a bender making a water shield to the punch...

..... for now, until I have time and energy to do more research, you can be proud that you have bested INoKnowNames twice, good lady.

Clertar
2012-07-23, 10:44 AM
Is my internet messed up? 'cause those ones aren't playing...

I remember something being posted about Zuko vs Zhao, and while you can defend against Fire, I'm still not seeing the defending against a Grenade in your face...

Sorry about the broken links, here they are again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LS1w7UfZ6To#t=79s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LS1w7UfZ6To#t=88s

AmberVael
2012-07-23, 10:46 AM
Oh, if you want to see the Father fight, you can check out the whole episode for free here. (http://www.hulu.com/watch/162563#s-p1-so-i0)

I'm not sure what awesome deal Hulu has, but they've basically got all the episodes of both FMA series as free for anyone to watch (well, the subbed version, but I never watch dubbed), and it's been up there forever. And in good quality too!

Does have commercials, unfortunately.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 10:53 AM
Sorry about the broken links, here they are again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LS1w7UfZ6To#t=79s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LS1w7UfZ6To#t=88s

I find it funny because it's the same video, just at 2 different times. :p

While that's definitely proof that fire benders can defend against gusts of flame belched at them, I'm still not seeing the reflexes required to stop death via grenade in the mouth....

Remember, this is who you're dealing with. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mhiYsD9Hi0)


Oh, if you want to see the Father fight, you can check out the whole episode for free here. (http://www.hulu.com/watch/162563#s-p1-so-i0)

I'm not sure what awesome deal Hulu has, but they've basically got all the episodes of both FMA series as free for anyone to watch (well, the subbed version, but I never watch dubbed), and it's been up there forever. And in good quality too!

Does have commercials, unfortunately.

I'm not going to bother getting into a fight over Dubbed vs Subbed. I just like my anime.

And we were referencing the first anime's fight against Pride, if I remember right.

Still, thanks. Can probably check this for that fight.

AmberVael
2012-07-23, 10:57 AM
I'm not going to bother getting into a fight over Dubbed vs Subbed. I just like my anime.

And we were referencing the first anime's fight against Pride, if I remember right.

Still, thanks. Can probably check this for that fight.

Oh derp. I remembered someone else referencing the Father fight, guess I got that mixed in my head. I've been kinda in a daze today.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 11:44 AM
Oh derp. I remembered someone else referencing the Father fight, guess I got that mixed in my head. I've been kinda in a daze today.

We might have... I referenced it as additional proof that he needs to aim so he doesn't blow off his foot or anything...

Thanks for settling the issue with the 2003 Pride fight: it shows in the final episode and the one before it that Pride's powers actually do include being able to see things like the Air Pressure of a room, as well as Matrix grade reflexes and movement speed. So he actually would be able to see Roy's attacks coming and dodge them.

Other than elemental manipulation alone, I don't think the Avatar's ever demonstrated true Super Human reflexes or speed, which is what almost beat Roy. Again, Dodging Hadokens is much easier than dodging Golden Gun Bullets. Prove the Avatar having better speed than a human's, and the fight becomes one-sided in his favor.

Clertar
2012-07-23, 12:40 PM
I find it funny because it's the same video, just at 2 different times. :p

While that's definitely proof that fire benders can defend against gusts of flame belched at them, I'm still not seeing the reflexes required to stop death via grenade in the mouth....

Remember, this is who you're dealing with.

Well, as I said, we can't see anyone in Avatar interacting with the type of attack that Roy Mustang would use: not waterbenders, not firebenders, not the avatar. Simply because it doesn't exist at all.

The closest thing, for me, is what I've shown in the videos (and you're right, conveniently it's the same video, although each scene is from either of the two fights between Zuko and Zhao xD), namely firebenders getting fully hit by big fire blasts, even falling from the impact, but still managing to not get burnt.

Regardless, and going slightly back on topic, the discussion is complicated because there's a difference between discussing whether Aang could defeat Roy Mustang, and the other way around, or whether he would defeat him.

Aang definitely can, in the sense of having the resources to do it. Barring Avatar State, Aang could block the ignition of transmuted air by surrounding himself with an air ball (he mostly does it in Avatar State, but we also see Tenzin doing it with no problems in LOK), then immediately (a) sending himself underground via earth tunneling and then crushing Roy with some earthbending, feeling where he stands with the tremor sense hability, or (b) walking to the pond, where he can suck himself underwater and from there send giant waves to Roy and finally imprison him in ice, or (c) still in the air field, bending strong gusts/shots of wind towards Roy that would send him tumbling some meters away and then either bury him, freeze him, impale him... Any of that, going from more likely to less likely, has some good chances of success against Roy, plus some other strategies that an avatar could pull out.

Would Aang do that, though? Hard to tell :smallbiggrin:

Traab
2012-07-23, 12:43 PM
We might have... I referenced it as additional proof that he needs to aim so he doesn't blow off his foot or anything...

Thanks for settling the issue with the 2003 Pride fight: it shows in the final episode and the one before it that Pride's powers actually do include being able to see things like the Air Pressure of a room, as well as Matrix grade reflexes and movement speed. So he actually would be able to see Roy's attacks coming and dodge them.

Other than elemental manipulation alone, I don't think the Avatar's ever demonstrated true Super Human reflexes or speed, which is what almost beat Roy. Again, Dodging Hadokens is much easier than dodging Golden Gun Bullets. Prove the Avatar having better speed than a human's, and the fight becomes one-sided in his favor.

Even that might not be enough, dont the homunculi have superhuman reactions and speed? Roy has managed to personally obliterate what, 3 of them counting brotherhood? Pride, Lust, and Envy? He is a damn deadly fighter.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 12:45 PM
We might have... I referenced it as additional proof that he needs to aim so he doesn't blow off his foot or anything...

Thanks for settling the issue with the 2003 Pride fight: it shows in the final episode and the one before it that Pride's powers actually do include being able to see things like the Air Pressure of a room, as well as Matrix grade reflexes and movement speed. So he actually would be able to see Roy's attacks coming and dodge them.

Other than elemental manipulation alone, I don't think the Avatar's ever demonstrated true Super Human reflexes or speed, which is what almost beat Roy. Again, Dodging Hadokens is much easier than dodging Golden Gun Bullets. Prove the Avatar having better speed than a human's, and the fight becomes one-sided in his favor.

Tremor sense gives Aang above human reaction speed. It also means that when Alchemy is summoning energy from deep below the earth a fully realized avatar would be able to feel it. Thus Aang will know an attack is coming, and be able to use earth bending to destabilize mustang and throw off his aim. Once that is done either earth bend him into submission ala Ozai (works even better as Mustand can't use alchemy without his hands) or start up a tree bending wind ala Kiyoshi to prevent any attack of mustangs to come close to reaching him.

Fan
2012-07-23, 12:55 PM
LOL, until the Metal Vs Flame episode? Where Ed is scampering around like a rat in the open courtyard, and still manages to dodge Roy's explosions. Though I guess you can say Roy's taking it easy on him.

As for the Roy vs Fuhrer fight in FMA... I remember it because I like FMA, doesn't mean I know where it is on Youtube though.


He could make "land mines" near the firebending firebender. This is true.


I never said firebenders are invulnerable to fire.
I never said firebenders are invulnerable to lightning.
I never said firebenders are immune from getting burn wounds.
I said firebenders have passive resistance to fire (not lightning).


Ok, finally someone shows me that Roy is capable of SSB Man's level of explosive power. So yes, Roy can use that to knock out a firebender with concussive force, even if the associated flames won't burn the firebender.

Makes me wonder why Roy never just blew a Homonculus's head off. Just set off an explosion right below the chin, doesn't even have to be big. He wanted to torture Envy, but I don't remember if he was angry like that against Lust.

>Says you aren't saying that they can't be burned.

>Proceeds to immediately say it again.

As for Korra's reaction speed, I have to agree, Korra is a VASTLY superior combatant to Aang going by feats. She's actually physically capable of doing things like punching someone to knock them out. However, Mustang is no physical slouch either, and the highway speed bombs he tosses out are just too fast to react to.

It's mainly because the attacks are invisible with Korra though, the girl is ultimately arrogant, to a fault, and would probably believe his attack fizzled rather than expect the nuke in the face.

Also, there being a cross wind has never messed with Mustang's alchemy before. I imagine the alchemists are trained to do their dirty work in adverse conditions.

And again, we've still yet to see anything that puts Avatar consistently up in the highway speeds of actually hitting the target, or even being used.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 01:05 PM
Well, as I said, we can't see anyone in Avatar interacting with the type of attack that Roy Mustang would use: not waterbenders, not firebenders, not the avatar. Simply because it doesn't exist at all.

The closest thing, for me, is what I've shown in the videos (and you're right, conveniently it's the same video, although each scene is from either of the two fights between Zuko and Zhao xD), namely firebenders getting fully hit by big fire blasts, even falling from the impact, but still managing to not get burnt.

I thought someone posted information about the 'splosion man... I'm tempted to look him up....

There's no other evidence at all supporting genuine super speed -and- super senses from the avatar? As in, at the instance to enable dodging a bullet (with the power of a rocket)?


Aang definitely can, in the sense of having the resources to do it. Barring Avatar State, Aang could block the ignition of transmuted air by surrounding himself with an air ball (he mostly does it in Avatar State, but we also see Tenzin doing it with no problems in LOK),

There's still the matter of how fast he could possibly render such a defense, and whether or not such defenses are completely inpenetrable or not. It doesn't take Roy too much effort to bomb twice, assuming Aang's fast enough the first time.

Granted, if he can, then yeah, he can pretty much pick how he'd want to finish the fight.


Regardless, and going slightly back on topic, the discussion is complicated because there's a difference between discussing whether Aang could defeat Roy Mustang, and the other way around, or whether he would defeat him.


Would Aang do that, though? Hard to tell :smallbiggrin:

Leave that to the fan-fic writers. We're doing meaningless analysis over a cartoon show! :smallbiggrin:


Even that might not be enough, dont the homunculi have superhuman reactions and speed? Roy has managed to personally obliterate what, 3 of them counting brotherhood? Pride, Lust, and Envy? He is a damn deadly fighter.

True, and Lust and Envy do have better than human speeds, but it's only Pride who has the Super Speed and Super Reflexes as a notable ability. The others are simply better due to being Homonculi.

And Ed's fought a couple of them and survived. Aang's probably more coordinated than him.


Tremor sense gives Aang above human reaction speed.

Merely being able to percieve where someone touches the ground doesn't seem to equal "above human reaction speed" when the thing your sensing is a -single- arm wave, rather than the shifting into a halfway decent combat form into a thrown punch. It took about 2 full seconds for Ozai to get his attack up, and from prone. Does it take that long to point at someone and say bang?

The correct sarcastic answer is "Only when it's this awesome". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DE9NsrKzSq8#t=297s)


It also means that when Alchemy is summoning energy from deep below the earth a fully realized avatar would be able to feel it.

I don't think Roy's Alchemy requires anything being Wave and Bang. For a while, it was thought to be just -bang-, but it has been proven somewhat that he at lest has to point.

Still easier to Point than to wind up and throw a punch from a martial arts pose, which even Korra's trainers were doing while she was fighting. After she'd focus on one, the others would get up and get ready, and she'd usually have just cleared her target to be able to take on the others.


Thus Aang will know an attack is coming, and be able to use earth bending to destabilize mustang and throw off his aim.

Assuming he can even detect Roy's finger, or at least his arm wave, rather than the part of him that actually touches the floor and makes a tremor, by the time he has, if he's not already guarding, rather than about to guard, he's lost a limb.


works even better as Mustand.

I thought you called him Mustard. XD


Also, there being a cross wind has never messed with Mustang's alchemy before. I imagine the alchemists are trained to do their dirty work in adverse conditions.

Any chance you can site this? If Roy has no problem using his alchemy or aiming in windy conditions, then it's guranteed that the Air Defense, which is probably the fastest defense an Avatar could do (noting that Flame would probably be about the same, Water being the slowest requiring the water to be brought to the Avatar, and Earth being only a bit faster needina decent stomp or thrust to call a shield up), would be useless against Roy.

BRC
2012-07-23, 01:15 PM
>Says you aren't saying that they can't be burned.

>Proceeds to immediately say it again.

As for Korra's reaction speed, I have to agree, Korra is a VASTLY superior combatant to Aang going by feats. She's actually physically capable of doing things like punching someone to knock them out. However, Mustang is no physical slouch either, and the highway speed bombs he tosses out are just too fast to react to.

It's mainly because the attacks are invisible with Korra though, the girl is ultimately arrogant, to a fault, and would probably believe his attack fizzled rather than expect the nuke in the face.

Also, there being a cross wind has never messed with Mustang's alchemy before. I imagine the alchemists are trained to do their dirty work in adverse conditions.

And again, we've still yet to see anything that puts Avatar consistently up in the highway speeds of actually hitting the target, or even being used.
A crosswind is also predictable, a disruptive burst of airbending is not.

I'm not saying Mustang wouldn't win. I would put things about 85-90% in his favor, but he's not indestructable. If he's as fast as was this thread is giving him credit for, he would never have had any trouble in any fights, ever, unless he came up against an opponent who was immune to explosions. IIRC scar gives him quite a bit of trouble, and while Scar may be faster than, say, Korra or Aang, their bending gives them some added mobility and defenses that must be factored in.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 01:23 PM
A crosswind is also predictable, a disruptive burst of airbending is not.

Predictable or not, if he could still use Alchemy through Wind being in his way, and still be accurate, that means the shield of air wouldn't be able to stop him, either.


If he's as fast as was this thread is giving him credit for, he would never have had any trouble in any fights, ever, unless he came up against an opponent who was immune to explosions.

He normally doesn't struggle against anyone. He was surrounded by Homonculi in the one fight I think I've seen him lose, and the only trouble I've seen him in in a 1v1 fight without anyone else getting in the way was against an enemy that could genuinly see his attacks coming and had the speed to stop him before he could launch the attack (Pride, 2003).


IIRC scar gives him quite a bit of trouble, and while Scar may be faster than, say, Korra or Aang, their bending gives them some added mobility and defenses that must be factored in.

I don't think he ever fought Scar, actually. It was raining at the time, which means he'd have to use a type of Alchemy that would end up blowing up the freaking city block (a bit impractical), or find a heat source that wouldn't be put out by water.

The fight isn't slated to be started in such settings, though.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 01:26 PM
That's how Tremor sense works, everything connected to the earth in a very large radius can be accurately observed. The whole point of the technique is that your reaction time becomes more fluid and your defense more perfect.

The Avatar is all about energy, feeling the power of the earth welling up underneath Mustang would set off alarms. The smart reaction is shifting your foot and knocking Mustang of his feet.

Once the first attack has been dodged the Avatar has the upper hand. Either bend the earth so that Mustang is trapped, or set up any wind faster than ninety MPH. Assuming that is the speed of Mustang's attack the air wouldn't ever reach Aang.

Hell extending your arm before snapping is slower than a lot of the basic air push techniques (Mustang has to Aim, Aang just has to thrust.) Those all move fast enough that Mustang's air pocket could end up exploding in his face.

EDIT: Fast enough is the wrong term "with enough force." is the right one.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 01:43 PM
That's how Tremor sense works, everything connected to the earth in a very large radius can be accurately observed. The whole point of the technique is that your reaction time becomes more fluid and your defense more perfect.

To take the example of another series: What use is your enhanced senses if your body doesn't move fast enough to take advantage of them? There's still no shown proof that Aang can take advantage of being able to see, even if he recognises that a finger snap means -instant- death.


The Avatar is all about energy, feeling the power of the earth welling up underneath Mustang would set off alarms. The smart reaction is shifting your foot and knocking Mustang of his feet.

Mustang doesn't have any energy needing to come underneath him! He just has to point and click "kill.exe"! Am I misunderstanding something?


Once the first attack has been dodged

Still no conclusive proof that the Avatar is capable of dodging or defending in time... And it doesn't matter how the rest of the fight would go if the beginning can't even be survived.


Hell extending your arm before snapping is slower than a lot of the basic air push techniques (Mustang has to Aim, Aang just has to thrust.) Those all move fast enough that Mustang's air pocket could end up exploding in his face.

Care to show off him starting and launching fast enough gusts to stop such an attack? Especially if it has him starting off standing, rather than already in motion. Heck, right here in the Avatar State, he's got about 2-3 seconds of Wind Up Time before he gets off a decisive Wind Blast. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZFn2Kd7vI9s#t=413s) How many times might he already be dead?


EDIT: Fast enough is the wrong term "with enough force." is the right one.

Indeed, unless Roy is capable of operating in adverse enough conditions to still aim and fire right, in which case the Avatar would completely lose this match. Though I'm not banking on that myself.

BRC
2012-07-23, 01:45 PM
Predictable or not, if he could still use Alchemy through Wind being in his way, and still be accurate, that means the shield of air wouldn't be able to stop him, either.
No, Predictability is VERY important. Consider the mechanics of Mustang's alchemy:
First, he transmutes the air into something flammable, then he ignites it. He dosn't just "Make Explosions Happen", there is a mechanical process that occurs, which means it is a mechanical process that can be disrupted. If the air pocket is broken up, or the path between the pocket and his fingers is disrupted, then the explosion fails. The avatar does not even need to be precise, merely unpredictable.

If he knows the wind is moving such a speed and such a direction, he transmutes the air pocket so that, by the time he detonates it, the wind will have blown it where he wants it to be. Under natural conditions this is fine, since the entire process takes less than a second, and wind does not dramatically change that quickly. Long-distance snipers have to do something similar, factoring in wind, gravity, and many other factors.

Fighting an airbender would not be natural conditions. He has no way of knowing which way the airbender is going to push his gas pocket, or how fast it's going to be pushed. The airbender could jump left and push it right, they could jump back and push it up, they could stay still and push it straight back at him.

The "Shield of Air" would break up his air pocket more effectively than Bradley's sword. The Avatar wouldn't have the advantage of seeing air currents, but neither does mustang, which means he couldn't predict the airflow. In "The Blind Bandit" we learn that Airbending is basically invisible (Unless there is a lot of dust or somthing in the air), and that the swoopy lines we see are for the audience's benefit. Therefore, unless the avatar sets up a constant, monodirectional wind, Mustang's alchemy won't work. If the Avatar just sends a random blast of air whenever they see Mustang's glove glow, they can keep disrupting him until they get caught off-guard or fall into a consistent, and exploitable, pattern.


As for the "Firebenders are Fireproof", they are not. Fire Nation Culture has somthing called an Agni- Kai, a duel between firebenders that ends when one is burned. Were Firebenders fireproof, such a duel would be eternal.

However, there is evidence that Firebenders can protect them selves from flames by "Bending" them away from their bodies (Otherwise an Agni-Kai would either be a quickdraw contest or end in mutual defeat, as each side burned the other). Kind of like a martial artist blocking a punch, if they know the attack is coming, they can defend themselves. Now, this trick won't always work against Mustang, firebenders work flamethrower-style, which means you can see their flames coming. Mustang is more like a guy detonating some C4 around your feet. If countering firebending is blocking a punch, stopping mustang would be like blocking twenty punches, each from a different direction, all at the exact same time, and the fists in question are invisible until they hit you.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 01:58 PM
The advanced senses let Aang twist his foot before Mustang can raise his arm and snap. That is all it takes to manipulate the earth underneath Mustangs feet. And all it takes to push air forward is for Aang to breath out, or throw a punch. Again, the punch is faster because Aang doesn't have to aim just move his arm forward.


In the manga, alchemy is said to have been taught to Amestrians over 350 years prior to the start of the series by a mysterious man known as The Philosopher from the East and is explained to harness the diastrophic energy that is released from the movement and collision of tectonic plates deep within the Earth's crust to power transmutation. As practitioners of Alkahestry understand alchemy differently, they are able to sense that the source of Amestrian alchemy's power is not diastrophic energy, but more akin to the movement of many, many human beings, suggesting that the origins of alchemy may in fact be rather sinister. It is revealed late in the series that, while the earthen energy source does exist, alchemy in Amestris is actually powered by Philosopher's Stone energy, being fed through a nationwide network of underground tubes from Father's body into the earth between the surface and the crust to act as a barrier between Amestrian alchemists and the true energy. Additionally, the ancient nation of Xerxes appears to have had an advanced understanding of alchemy that mirrors, but may be different from, the contemporary Amestrian understanding.

So yeah, if Mustang is using Alchemy here, he either has a philosopher's stone or he's using the tectonic energy source. Hence tremor sense making the windup visible to a fully realized Avatar.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 02:02 PM
No, Predictability is VERY important. Consider the mechanics of Mustang's alchemy:
First, he transmutes the air into something flammable, then he ignites it. He dosn't just "Make Explosions Happen", there is a mechanical process that occurs, which means it is a mechanical process that can be disrupted. If the air pocket is broken up, or the path between the pocket and his fingers is disrupted, then the explosion fails.

This is why I wanted to see if Fan could reference in what conditions Roy was working with. If his Alchemy was capable of going normally even when the Wind would be about on level of, say, an Air Burst, and still go off, then this thread ends.

But I personally don't remember such situations, and can't really judge on that. And I don't know enough of where the anime(s) and manga teach on how his alchemy works to judge on how his technique works. All I know basically amounts to "he snaps his fingers and the bodies start flying". Still doesn't change the fact that the Avatar needs the Reflexes of a Coaked up Cat to outgun a bullet.


Fighting an airbender would not be natural conditions. He has no way of knowing which way the airbender is going to push his gas pocket, or how fast it's going to be pushed.

True, if all else said about the manipulation is true. Again, I don't know there. However-


The airbender could jump left and push it right, they could jump back and push it up, they could stay still and push it straight back at him.

-again, prove the Avatar having the reflexes needed to assume his form, start up, and launch an attack, or jump while pushing the air, to dodge a bullet.


The "Shield of Air" would break up his air pocket more effectively than Bradley's sword.

Bradley never blocked Roy's Fire Alchemy. He stoped him from getting it off period. The second Roy weakened him with his own remains enough to launch such alchemy, Pride died.


If the Avatar just sends a random blast of air whenever they see Mustang's glove glow

A bit like closing your eyes when you see that a Medusa has opened hers.... by the time you see that Roy's made a spark, if you haven't already prepared a defense, you just lost an arm.

Roy is not a Firebender. The time that he starts his attacks requires just a handwave, not it's own fighting stance and form, followed by a martial arts punch / kick. And the time it takes the attack to get into place and do damage is not a Hadoken, but a Bullet with the power of a Grenade. Unless Aang has demonstrated the ability to bend that fast, the rest of the fight doesn't happen.


The advanced senses let Aang twist his foot before Mustang can raise his arm and snap.

So, Tremorsense lets him see something -before- it happens, ie Precognition? Or as it happens, as is usually described? Seems more like the latter than the former, and by that point it's already too late to defend against a bullet without super reflexes.


Again, the punch is faster because Aang doesn't have to aim just move his arm forward.

Roy doesn't have to do more than point at the foe's dirrection for his pin point attacks either. And at least he doesn't have to shift into a stance before throwing that punch.


So yeah, if Mustang is using Alchemy here, he either has a philosopher's stone or he's using the tectonic energy source. Hence tremor sense making the windup visible to a fully realized Avatar.

... it's funny that what you quoted isn't even completely consistent on exactly where the source of Alchemy comes from, or if the basic understanding is correct at all, not to mention how it is independent of the Anime, while Roy's abilities as Flame Alchemist are consistent in both stories.

Even if it's part of the energy that comes from the earth (not that such theory is even remotely being given credence), where does it say that anything has to be done, or any time has to be spent on bringing that energy up? The closest thing to it is the use of the arrays, and Roy has his glove for that purpose. If anything, the Avatar's tremorsense would be blinding by him always having that energy up, needing only to tap into the array to use it.

The Avatar's still sunk without the ability to respond in time.

BRC
2012-07-23, 02:13 PM
This is why I wanted to see if Fan could reference in what conditions Roy was working with. If his Alchemy was capable of going normally even when the Wind would be about on level of, say, an Air Burst, and still go off, then this thread ends.

That isn't "Conditions", that is "Mechanics", that is how Roy's alchemy works, just as punching is how a boxer works, whether they are in the ring on fighting kangaroos in the desert.


Bradley never blocked Roy's Fire Alchemy. He stoped him from getting it off period. The second Roy weakened him with his own remains enough to launch such alchemy, Pride died.
He stopped it by using his sword to break up the path between Roy's fingers and the gas pocket, kind of like cutting the fuse to stop some dynamite. In this case the "Fuse" is just more flammable gas, so the Avatar could block it with airbending.




A bit like closing your eyes when you see that a Medusa has opened hers.... by the time you see that Roy's made a spark, if you haven't already prepared a defense, you just lost an arm.

Not the case. The glove glows when he transmutes the air, it ignites when he makes a spark with his fingers. It's more like taking cover when you see somebody pull back the hammer on a revolver.

You would need to either be supernaturally fast, OR have prepared to do an airburst, but a wary avatar could be ready. Or they could just be throwing some air around anyway and disrupt the burst by accident.

endoperez
2012-07-23, 02:25 PM
Unless Aang has demonstrated the ability to bend that fast, the rest of the fight doesn't happen.

The Avatar's still sunk without the ability to respond in time.

Well, Aang does a slow-motion block aganst SSBM's exploding beam thingy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBKJmnOpM4Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=218s

According to the ridiculous math from before, it's something like a few 25ths of a second to do that.

That said, when asked how they can stop someone who can make explosions with his mind, Aang's answer is "we can't".

TheSummoner
2012-07-23, 02:29 PM
Knowledge and Preparation

The Avatar is familiar with the concept of alchemists, and the concept of state alchemists. He can recognize the flame alchemist on sight and knows of the name flame alchemist but doesn't have any other special knowledge of Roy Mustang's abilities.


Again, the Avatar does not know how Roy's attack works and would have no way of figuring it out (and thus having any way of knowing how to stop it) atleast until after Roy attacks.

And if Roy attacks, the Avatar is extra-crispy.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 02:36 PM
Again, the Avatar does not know how Roy's attack works and would have no way of figuring it out (and thus having any way of knowing how to stop it) atleast until after Roy attacks.

And if Roy attacks, the Avatar is extra-crispy.

Doesn't matter if he knows an attack is coming and disables it (tremor sense) or if he just starts attacking and disrupts it (air blast)

BRC
2012-07-23, 02:37 PM
Again, the Avatar does not know how Roy's attack works and would have no way of figuring it out (and thus having any way of knowing how to stop it) atleast until after Roy attacks.

And if Roy attacks, the Avatar is extra-crispy.
Well, if we're talking about Avatar Aang, his first attack would likely be air-based anyway. If he launches any sort of air blast, he runs a good chance of disrupting Mustang without even meaning to. If he keeps using Air moves, or destabilizes Mustang with his opening blast, he could win the fight before Mustang gets a shot off.

Korra, on the other hand, is likely to open with a Firebending attack. Chances are, she would just ignite Mustang's gas pocket and blow herself up before he gets a chance to snap his fingers.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 02:41 PM
That isn't "Conditions", that is "Mechanics", that is how Roy's alchemy works, just as punching is how a boxer works, whether they are in the ring on fighting kangaroos in the desert.

If his Mechanics are capable of functioning in various levels of adverse conditions, then the distinction doesn't matter.

Actually, none of this part of the argument matters, even if the avatar can disrupt it, if the opening attack can't be blocked in time, and there's yet to prove the Avatar can.


He stopped it by using his sword to break up the path between Roy's fingers and the gas pocket, kind of like cutting the fuse to stop some dynamite.

Dang you for making me need to go back and endure commercials to verify your claim. I'll probably get swordsaged in the process, or have more to respond to.

Not in the end part of the fight has Pride ever attacked Roy -as- the fire appeared. He stoped Roy -before- he could burn him, impaling him on the wall.

And it doesn't show anything, other than him trying to kill, and successfully cutting one of Roy's gloves, in the first part of the fight. You'd hear at least part of the snap and see an explosion near him, or see the spark near him, if it was the case.


Not the case. The glove glows when he transmutes the air, it ignites when he makes a spark with his fingers. It's more like taking cover when you see somebody pull back the hammer on a revolver.

Considering there is almost no delay between snap to fire, it's more like taking cover when you see someone pull the trigger of the gun. Especially since the glow, whether it's the Alchemy or the Spark, and the snap in question, occur at the exact same time from what I've seen.


You would need to either be supernaturally fast, OR have prepared to do an airburst,

I still don't ever see the avatars moving fast enough to prepare the airburst or to defend. Care to show?


but a wary avatar could be ready. Or they could just be throwing some air around anyway and disrupt the burst by accident.

This implies acting before Roy's acted. I've been under the assumption that they move at the same time and do their thing, from a standing position into combat. Whoever attacks / moves faster would take it.


Well, Aang does a slow-motion block aganst SSBM's exploding beam thingy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBKJmnOpM4Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=218s

According to the ridiculous math from before, it's something like a few 25ths of a second to do that.

That said, when asked how they can stop someone who can make explosions with his mind, Aang's answer is "we can't".

It would take someone a bit more on the math side to determine how fast the Avatar disrupts it in mid air, but it's still about a full second before it gets that far, while Roy's move doesn't seem to take an entire second.


Doesn't matter if he knows an attack is coming and disables it (tremor sense) or if he just starts attacking and disrupts it (air blast)

If he can't respond in time to do either, it certainly does not.

BRC
2012-07-23, 02:52 PM
This implies acting before Roy's acted. I've been under the assumption that they move at the same time and do their thing, from a standing position into combat. Whoever attacks / moves faster would take it.

Not an assumption I would make. The Avatar is a trained martial artist, used to fighting very quick opponents. This requires very fast reflexes.
Roy, by comparison, fights by snapping his fingers. He's the guy who brings a gun to a sworfight. He's not necessarily faster than his opponents, in fact he's probably slower, but his action takes so much less time than theirs.

The avatar would probably Win Initiative as it were, but Roy's attack takes a second (There is a delay between transmutation and ignition, not much of one, bu there is one), while the Avatar's takes less than that.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 02:58 PM
There's time to dodge because Mustang still needs to do what amounts to throwing a punch for the first shot (If not slower.) Once his hand is out there he's good to go, but he still has to aim. And this means that Aang through either earth bending to destabilize him before he can fire, or just striking immediately with air bending, can get through the first attack.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 02:58 PM
Not an assumption I would make. The Avatar is a trained martial artist, used to fighting very quick opponents. This requires very fast reflexes.

Still human reflexes, unless proven otherwise. A trained soldier (who also happens to be able to launch grenades at the blink of an eye) isn't that much slower to be notable.


Roy, by comparison, fights by snapping his fingers. He's the guy who brings a gun to a sworfight. He's not necessarily faster than his opponents, in fact he's probably slower, but his action takes so much less time than theirs.

Since most of his opponents are Homonculi, I certainly agree, though I'm not seeing the point. I do feel compelled to state that he's a Colonel, and certainly doesn't just rust behind his desk.


The avatar would probably Win Initiative as it were,

Not necesarally.


but Roy's attack takes a second (There is a delay between transmutation and ignition, not much of one, bu there is one), while the Avatar's takes less than that.

..... Bolding mine. Please prove that. Even tying Roy's explosions in speed would definitely give the Avatar the edge, since he'd be able to disrupt it ala Combustion Man.


There's time to dodge because Mustang still needs to do what amounts to throwing a punch for the first shot (If not slower.) Once his hand is out there he's good to go, but he still has to aim.

True.


And this means that Aang through either earth bending to destabilize him before he can fire, or just striking immediately with air bending, can get through the first attack.

So, having both players at a complete stand still, arms to the sides, talking for a second, just like against Ozai or Pride. Aang automatically bends earth or air without doing -anything- else, purely mentally, before his opponent can even lift his arm. Really.

Fan
2012-07-23, 03:03 PM
Not an assumption I would make. The Avatar is a trained martial artist, used to fighting very quick opponents. This requires very fast reflexes.
Roy, by comparison, fights by snapping his fingers. He's the guy who brings a gun to a sworfight. He's not necessarily faster than his opponents, in fact he's probably slower, but his action takes so much less time than theirs.

The avatar would probably Win Initiative as it were, but Roy's attack takes a second (There is a delay between transmutation and ignition, not much of one, bu there is one), while the Avatar's takes less than that.

Roy is trained to avoid gunfire, and as a traditional soldier on top of being a State Alchemist. He WAS In the Ishbal war.

I'd say Soldier's are about even with martial artists, especially since Mustang routinely fights, and keeps up with, people capable of bullet dodging (Envy, repeatedly.).

BRC
2012-07-23, 03:12 PM
Since most of his opponents are Homonculi, I certainly agree, though I'm not seeing the point. I do feel compelled to state that he's a Colonel, and certainly doesn't just rust behind his desk.
Most of his on-screen opponents are Homonculi, but he's trained to fight ordinary human soldiers. When your attack takes but a second, you don't need lighting-fast reflexes.





..... Bolding mine. Please prove that. Even tying Roy's explosions in speed would definitely give the Avatar the edge, since he'd be able to disrupt it ala Combustion Man.
That would be a megatypo on my part. The Avatar's attacks take longer to pull off, but the Avatar would get a head start.




So, having both players at a complete stand still, arms to the sides, talking for a second, just like against Ozai or Pride. Aang automatically bends earth or air without doing -anything- else, purely mentally, before his opponent can even lift his arm. Really.
You can earthbend by stomping or twisting your foot. If all he needs to do is destabilize Roy, that will be enough.

Assume a standard "Showdown at High Noon" type situation. The two stand in a neutral position until some agreed-upon signal. They may take no action before this signal.

When the Signal is given, Roy will raise his arm, transmute the air, and snap his fingers, to create an explosion.

Aang, going slightly before Roy due to his better reflexes, could send an air blast (Disrupting the pocket), or do basic earthbending (a stop or foottwist) to destabilize Roy, thus throwing off Roy's aim and catching him by surprise (If his hand get suddenly moved, he can't ignite the gas, since his fingers are no longer near the end of the "Fuse").

Korra, going slightly before Roy due to her better reflexes, starts firebending (Firebending is her go-to element throughout the series), getting ignition just as Roy transmutes the air. She explodes, Roy looks at his unsnapped fingers and says "Well, that was convenient".

Fan
2012-07-23, 03:23 PM
Mustang has been shown to be able to target, and fire off his attacks at single frame speeds.

Slow motion frames are used for dramatic effect to EXTEND periods of time, not reduce them.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 03:23 PM
Most of his on-screen opponents are Homonculi, but he's trained to fight ordinary human soldiers. When your attack takes but a second, you don't need lighting-fast reflexes.

While most of his on screen opponents are Homonculi, ordinary human soldiers are using Guns, the same things that mean instant death to Roy if he gets himself shot in the head. Reflexes are just as important to a soldier as to a martial artist.


the Avatar would get a head start.

Because none of his kung-fu requires him going from the, as you even noted below, neutral position to one suited to utalising his form, and he's thrown airbending punches or earthbending leg twists without it, right?


You can earthbend by stomping or twisting your foot. If all he needs to do is destabilize Roy, that will be enough.

Foot Twist, maybe, and that's still assuming that he does it with no other preperation, which I certainly don't remember seeing, especially with it being the type of bending he is least able or least likely to perform.


Assume a standard "Showdown at High Noon" type situation. The two stand in a neutral position until some agreed-upon signal. They may take no action before this signal.

Indeed.


When the Signal is given, Roy will raise his arm, transmute the air, and snap his fingers, to create an explosion.

Indeed.


Aang, being delayed by needing to bend the element in such posing and what not, based on how he's been shown fighting, might possibly have an air shield up, or litterally tastes an explosion.

Fixed.


Korra, going slightly before Roy due to being reckless and jumping the gun, starts firebending, getting ignition just as Roy transmutes the air. She explodes, Roy looks at his unsnapped fingers and says "Well, that was convenient".

Slightly fixed. I can totally see the expression on his face.... and the dull surprise in his voice.

Forum Explorer
2012-07-23, 03:37 PM
Ok so I read through the thread and here's what I think.

Roy will almost always win this fight before Avatar form. Avatar form it's a lot more even but Roy still has a decent chance of winning. (I'd say around 40% against Avatar form)

However the Avatar does have the abilities needed to always win, just Aang (I don't really know about Korra but it sounds like it applies to her as well) doesn't have the tactical or emotional mindset to use those abilities effectively enough. Furthermore he doesn't possess the knowledge of how to effectively counter Roy's alchemy. (IE he doesn't know the exact mechanics and thus won't be throwing wind around willy-nilly to disrupt air-pockets or trying to soak Roy's gloves off the start.) So I imagine he would be using tactics like Earth shields or preparing to try and bend the flames away. Also Aang has never seen Roy fight so he's likely expecting the flames to form a fireball like a fire bender instead of just exploding in his face (Literally! :smallbiggrin:)

Roy on the other hand has presumably be ordered to kill Aang and will be going for the kill off the bat. He knows how to use his alchemy to kill and is very good at it. He carries around back-up weapons in case his first glove is ruined.


Of course most of that is conjecture based on their personalities and I haven't seen all of Avatar TLA

BRC
2012-07-23, 03:38 PM
Because none of his kung-fu requires him going from the, as you even noted below, neutral position to one suited to utalising his form, and he's thrown airbending punches or earthbending leg twists without it, right?


The forms help, but you do not need to be in one in order to Bend (Otherwise Bumi's Chin Bending wouldn't work). You just need to be able to move. A proper stance helps for the same reason a good stance helps in martial arts, but you don't need to assume a stance before moving.

Korra throws her first Airbending Blast by just flailing with her fist (She didn't mean to Airbend, she didn't think she could do it at the time) and at one point earthbends by just stomping the ground. Aang can airbend just by taking a deep breath and blowing. Toph was able to earthbend just by moving her arm a little and gesturing (Less than what Mustang would have to do to move his arm from a neutral position, by his side, to his trademark Ready-to-Snap position). Mako works a small fireblast into a sneeze, Katara can pull the water out of clothes by wiggling her fingers, ect.
The point is, a bender does not need to assume a proper Stance before bending.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 03:49 PM
The forms help, but you do not need to be in one in order to Bend (Otherwise Bumi's Chin Bending wouldn't work). You just need to be able to move. A proper stance helps for the same reason a good stance helps in martial arts, but you don't need to assume a stance before moving.

Korra throws her first Airbending Blast by just flailing with her fist (She didn't mean to Airbend, she didn't think she could do it at the time) and at one point earthbends by just stomping the ground. Aang can airbend just by taking a deep breath and blowing. Toph was able to earthbend just by moving her arm a little and gesturing (Less than what Mustang would have to do to move his arm from a neutral position, by his side, to his trademark Ready-to-Snap position). Mako works a small fireblast into a sneeze, Katara can pull the water out of clothes by wiggling her fingers, ect.
The point is, a bender does not need to assume a proper Stance before bending.

I'd personally like to see the times on most of these abilities. Korra's Airbending blast took a good second to do, not to mention having her climb up from prone (as for not thinking she could, she was so desperate she reflexively tried to firebend. Air came out instead).

Not to mention most of these come from benders actively bending their element. Remember that Earth bending is Aang's hardest to do; let's see him do an instant Earth Bend.

BRC
2012-07-23, 03:53 PM
I'd personally like to see the times on most of these abilities. Korra's Airbending blast took a good second to do, not to mention having her climb up from prone (as for not thinking she could, she was so desperate she reflexively tried to firebend. Air came out instead).

Not to mention most of these come from benders actively bending their element. Remember that Earth bending is Aang's hardest to do; let's see him do an instant Earth Bend.
It's the hardest for him to Learn. Once he learned it, he did just fine.

Exhibit A: The Drill. He's fighting Azula on top of the Drill, she knocks him back into the wall, he surprises her by bending a rock gauntlet around his fist and punching her.

Also, what's the timing on Roy's Full Routine, since we're apparently doing that. Not JUST the finger snap, he's got to raise his arm and transmute the air. IIRC in the first Anime Roy's first real appearance (After the Train), the automail terrorist guy gets a few seconds to be stupid before Roy crispy-fries him.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 03:56 PM
I'd personally like to see the times on most of these abilities. Korra's Airbending blast took a good second to do, not to mention having her climb up from prone (as for not thinking she could, she was so desperate she reflexively tried to firebend. Air came out instead).

Not to mention most of these come from benders actively bending their element. Remember that Earth bending is Aang's hardest to do; let's see him do an instant Earth Bend.

Go look at the end of Aang vs. Ozai. Ozai's movements all take less time than Roy would to fire his first attack.

Roy's attacks shouldn't be measured in how long it takes the spark to reach the pocket, they should be measure by how long it takes him to aim his shot, and then how much harder that would be if the ground beneath you was the opponents weapon with a twist of their foot (as shown by the earth general that trapped Katara.)

And if for some reason tremor sense isn't available the standard air blast takes a comparable amount of time to Mustang's set up and completely throws off the attack.

Fan
2012-07-23, 04:14 PM
Go look at the end of Aang vs. Ozai. Ozai's movements all take less time than Roy would to fire his first attack.

Roy's attacks shouldn't be measured in how long it takes the spark to reach the pocket, they should be measure by how long it takes him to aim his shot, and then how much harder that would be if the ground beneath you was the opponents weapon with a twist of their foot (as shown by the earth general that trapped Katara.)

And if for some reason tremor sense isn't available the standard air blast takes a comparable amount of time to Mustang's set up and completely throws off the attack.

I.. call bullcrap.

All of the bending moves take more frames than Roy's, disregarding obviously done for dramatic effect slow motion.

All of them. Even the stutter step Earth trap.

Lightning bending, Earth bending, water bending, and air bending all take more than 0.25th of a second to A: Preform and B: Reach their target.

In the envy fight it's again, just the amount of time it takes someone trained in the action to simply raise their arm, and snap. A MUCH faster action than adopting a martial stance and punching, AND his attack doesn't telegraph, AND it's more lethal.

thubby
2012-07-23, 04:20 PM
aang has fought someone like mustang before. his name was combustion man, and aang apparently couldnt beat him head on.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 04:29 PM
It's the hardest for him to Learn. Once he learned it, he did just fine.

Exhibit A: The Drill. He's fighting Azula on top of the Drill, she knocks him back into the wall, he surprises her by bending a rock gauntlet around his fist and punching her.

It takes him about a full 3 seconds to get that glove made and into position, and that's with a rock wall immediately touching his hand to do it with.

HOWEVER, The Drill does show Aang using his Air Bending to Super-Speed Run, Sonic the Hedgehog Style, to get through the Drill, and to deliver the final blow against the drill... using his tremorsense, Aang -could- dodge that first shot... and then you guys can decide how he'd win the fight from there. Merely surviving the first shot is all he really needs to do to end this discussion.

And Aang is just as likely to start a fight with a dodge as he is with a defense or an air jet attack...


Also, what's the timing on Roy's Full Routine, since we're apparently doing that. Not JUST the finger snap, he's got to raise his arm and transmute the air. IIRC in the first Anime Roy's first real appearance (After the Train), the automail terrorist guy gets a few seconds to be stupid before Roy crispy-fries him.

Roy joshes a lot. When he's seriouss (which is when his best fights go), this seems to be to the best example of how strong he can truly be. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mhiYsD9Hi0) You tell me how fast he is. I've got to leave in a few minutes.


Go look at the end of Aang vs. Ozai. Ozai's movements all take less time than Roy would to fire his first attack.

The video I was usually -litterally- just got taken down by Viacom. Care to prove that yourself, or should I when I get back?


Roy's attacks shouldn't be measured in how long it takes the spark to reach the pocket, they should be measure by how long it takes him to aim his shot,

Indeed, they should. But it's hardly any more time lost than one of his opponent's moves.


and then how much harder that would be if the ground beneath you was the opponents weapon with a twist of their foot (as shown by the earth general that trapped Katara.)

Not being considered because by the time the ground beneath you was made your enemy, you're pretty much boned unless that enemy has already been neutralised.


And if for some reason tremor sense isn't available the standard air blast takes a comparable amount of time to Mustang's set up and completely throws off the attack.

Depending how fast Aang can launch an airblast...

For the record, my vote has finally been swayed back: Aang can indeed use his Airbending to augment his speed, and has the reflexes to not be ruined by said speed (else flight wouldn't be such a safe trick for him in the series). Dodging Roy's shots with Air enhanced speed is a perfectly viable strategy, and from from there the Avatar can seak shelter with the Earth or Water to figure out how next to deal with such a dangerous opponent, most likely with Water.

Might not be the only strategy, but at least 1 undisputably viable strategy is all I was looking for.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 04:35 PM
I.. call bullcrap.

All of the bending moves take more frames than Roy's, disregarding obviously done for dramatic effect slow motion.

All of them. Even the stutter step Earth trap.

Lightning bending, Earth bending, water bending, and air bending all take more than 0.25th of a second to A: Preform and B: Reach their target.

In the envy fight it's again, just the amount of time it takes someone trained in the action to simply raise their arm, and snap. A MUCH faster action than adopting a martial stance and punching, AND his attack doesn't telegraph, AND it's more lethal.

The point is that we only have to worry about A: perform. And Aang does have attacks that take less than a second to get up that would either destabilize Mustang, or are air currents and thus throw off his spark since he can't anticipate the invisible (air doesn't telegraph.) Mustang can do A pretty fast, but his first shot is going to take more time as he moves his arm up, and that's all Aang needs to push Roy out of his comfort zone.

So it's not a much faster action. Not when you take into account the rest of the movement. Tremor sense plus stomp would be enough to knock Mustang off his feet and thus force him to lose concentration. An air push is enough to stop finger clicking from pin point accuracy and may even push the blast on top of him.

@Thubby: Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man has a few key differences. The big one being he's not manipulating the air and thus air bending wouldn't work against his brand of explosives. Added with the fact his victories mostly boil down to why no one ever attempts to earth bend the ground underneath him (May, Tai Li and Azula are all light on their feet, and Ozai flies. SSBM is grounded, Toph should have taken him out easily.) Seriously, he's a terrible villain because there's little reason he should be as effective as he is. It's the same problem I have with the mecha tanks in the new series. Big and slow should mean earth trap fodder but no one ever does this besides Toph and Aang.

Fan
2012-07-23, 04:35 PM
It's still not fast enough, the speed he show cases in Baa Sing Sae is from a built up propulsion, it's not something he can go from 0 to.

Now unless someone has the calc's on it being faster than 90 MPH...

Please, post some calc's of his attacks being that fast, or his movements being that fast, Roy's attacks aren't exactly a small area of effect so being "Aware" they are coming is doing him about as much good as knowing that sniper is up on that hill.

All of your statements assume it's faster, and it doesn't telegraph it's attacks. Roy's reflexes are AT LEAST on par, the only thing Air bending does is propel him faster, just because someone can ride the rocket and drive it doesn't mean they have mach reactions.

AmberVael
2012-07-23, 04:41 PM
If Roy is the equivalent to Combustion Man, then the answer as to who wins this fight is clear.

Sokka with a boomerang.

Fan
2012-07-23, 04:45 PM
If Roy is the equivalent to Combustion Man, then the answer as to who wins this fight is clear.

Sokka with a boomerang.

I was actually rather disappointed in the lack of showing Sokka got once he got all that sword training.

And he's like Combustion man, but his attacks don't telegraph, they're faster, and can be used for pinpoint attacks.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 04:51 PM
Fudge, I'm supposed to be leaving, but I can't because I'm so interested in people's thoughts...


If Roy is the equivalent to Combustion Man, then the answer as to who wins this fight is clear.

Sokka with a boomerang.

.... I suppose that counts as another win, because I just fell back with a giggle and hit my head.

Jerk.


It's still not fast enough, the speed he show cases in Baa Sing Sae is from a built up propulsion, it's not something he can go from 0 to.

Now unless someone has the calc's on it being faster than 90 MPH...

Please, post some calc's of his attacks being that fast, or his movements being that fast, Roy's attacks aren't exactly a small area of effect so being "Aware" they are coming is doing him about as much good as knowing that sniper is up on that hill.

All of your statements assume it's faster, and it doesn't telegraph it's attacks. Roy's reflexes are AT LEAST on par, the only thing Air bending does is propel him faster, just because someone can ride the rocket and drive it doesn't mean they have mach reactions.

I'm not completely sure if this counts, but he, at the very least, needs no more than a second to touch the water in the 1st book, episode 4, after seeing the Unagi, and go from start up to "fast enough to run on water". No water bending, either. At the 4:35ish second mark if you find a full video of the episode. I was looking here. (http://www.watchcartoononline.com/avatar-book-1-water-episode-4)

Granted, the deranged animation (and the goopy sound effects) make this kinda nebulous... there are probably other examples, but I'm supposed to be gone!

Forum Explorer
2012-07-23, 04:55 PM
Assume a standard "Showdown at High Noon" type situation. The two stand in a neutral position until some agreed-upon signal. They may take no action before this signal.

When the Signal is given, Roy will raise his arm, transmute the air, and snap his fingers, to create an explosion.

Aang, going slightly before Roy due to his better reflexes, could send an air blast (Disrupting the pocket), or do basic earthbending (a stop or foottwist) to destabilize Roy, thus throwing off Roy's aim and catching him by surprise (If his hand get suddenly moved, he can't ignite the gas, since his fingers are no longer near the end of the "Fuse").

Korra, going slightly before Roy due to her better reflexes, starts firebending (Firebending is her go-to element throughout the series), getting ignition just as Roy transmutes the air. She explodes, Roy looks at his unsnapped fingers and says "Well, that was convenient".

I don't know why we would assume this. If Roy was given that sort of situation he would likely cheat, arrive early and put up some alchemy circles to give him a greater advantage.

I would put the assumption of them both being in the same village and knowing each other are enemies. They go to cross the bridge and spot each other from across the way. They immediately start to fight from that spot.

Like other's have said before Roy likely has some pretty stellar reflexes due to military training and dealing with opponents like Homunculii. I would guess that his reflexes are on par with Aang's. (In a fight against normal soldiers he needs to get his alchemy off before they can aim and fire. He needs to be sharp to have survived this long)

Destabilizing Roy might not throw his aim off too much. (I'm not sure what you mean by destabilizing though.) It would likely disrupt a eyeball or tongue blast but a full body blast would likely remain at least a partial hit which could be pretty close to fatal. The follow up attacks would almost certainly be fatal. His hand tends to move throughout his attacks. It doesn't need to be directly pointed at his opponent just in the general direction of where he wants it to explode.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 04:56 PM
It's still not fast enough, the speed he show cases in Baa Sing Sae is from a built up propulsion, it's not something he can go from 0 to.

Now unless someone has the calc's on it being faster than 90 MPH...

Please, post some calc's of his attacks being that fast, or his movements being that fast, Roy's attacks aren't exactly a small area of effect so being "Aware" they are coming is doing him about as much good as knowing that sniper is up on that hill.

All of your statements assume it's faster, and it doesn't telegraph it's attacks. Roy's reflexes are AT LEAST on par, the only thing Air bending does is propel him faster, just because someone can ride the rocket and drive it doesn't mean they have mach reactions.


In the Blue Spirit we also see some very fast running. However I still think breaking Mustang's stance is the easiest way for the Avatar to win. Like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WODZMYD5Yn0) (warning, title contains swearing, it was the best I could find.)

Fan
2012-07-23, 05:03 PM
Again, Roy deals with people capable of dodging bullets all the time, which are CONSIDERABLY faster than any form of bending.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 05:10 PM
****. I'm going to be late because I can't leave because this dicussion is so interesting!


Again, Roy deals with people capable of dodging bullets all the time, which are CONSIDERABLY faster than any form of bending.

Check the Blue Spirit. At about the 4 second mark, 4.5ish. (http://www.kumby.com/avatar-the-last-airbender-book-1-chapter-13/) That jump certainly required -very- little from the Avatar. And the speed of the leap is noteworthy, to say the least. You're better at the analysis than me, so you judge. I'm going to go work out before my personal trainer breaks me in half.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 05:15 PM
Again, Roy deals with people capable of dodging bullets all the time, which are CONSIDERABLY faster than any form of bending.

Dodging bullets means dodging before someone pulls the trigger, so I'm not sure how that's relevant. He hits them because they can't predict where his shot will fall until it's already landed. Against someone who can he has more trouble as shown by the 03 fight against the Fuhrer.

Meanwhile Aang can kick the ground and have Mustang up in the air, or he can extend his arm (faster than Roy can probably) and have a giant air blast headed towards him that Roy can't see. Since it moves slower than Roy's attack Roy will snap, not accounting for the air moving towards him and end up surrounded by fire which he isn't immune to. Or in other words, deployment is all that matters here, not travel time.

Fan
2012-07-23, 05:25 PM
Dodging bullets means dodging before someone pulls the trigger, so I'm not sure how that's relevant. He hits them because they can't predict where his shot will fall until it's already landed. Against someone who can he has more trouble as shown by the 03 fight against the Fuhrer.

Meanwhile Aang can kick the ground and have Mustang up in the air, or he can extend his arm (faster than Roy can probably) and have a giant air blast headed towards him that Roy can't see. Since it moves slower than Roys attack Roy will snap, not accounting for the air moving towards him and end up surrounded by fire which he isn't immune to. Or in other words, deployment is all that matters here, not travel time.

I wouldn't give Aang that edge, he's consistently shown to move his limbs and his combat speed is also consistently slower as he himself is slowed by his bending.

Earth bending is again, too slow, all of the forms of bending are too slow in combat application, we have 0.25th of a second to work with.

TheSummoner
2012-07-23, 05:27 PM
Re: Tremor Sense -

Roy's attack consists of two parts. He uses alchemy to modify the air around him, creating a path of modified, super-flamable air leading to his opponent. There tends to be a larger pocket of this modified air that causes a fiery explosion when lit. This is instant. One moment the air is normal, the next it is modified as it needs to be for his attack. The second part of the attack is for him to light the modified air. Usually by snapping his fingers and creating a spark, though any spark or flame will do. This is done at the same time as part one.

Now, I'll grant you that due to the way alchemy works (powered by tectonic plates), it's porrible that the Avatar could sense the alchemy being performed. However, even if this was the case, how is he supposed to react in time? One moment the air is normal. The next, Roy uses alchemy, changes the air, and snaps his fingers, lighting the air trail. The spark goes off, the air ignites, the air pocket is hit, and the Avatar is engulfed in flame all in less time than it takes to blink.

Now... The air trail can be disrupted by fast winds. However, if the two notice eachother at the same time and both immediately try to act, I don't see how the Avatar could get a shot off fast enough. Bending just plain takes longer than snapping fingers. A wind shield could be blasted away by Roy detonating his attack close to, but not within the tornado, and while this is a bit of speculation, I really don't see any reason why Roy's attack has to go in a straight line. What he does is modify the air to make it super-flamable and create a trail of that super-flamable air to a larger, explosive pocket. Why does the trail have to go straight? Why couldn't he curve it if he needed to?

As said before, the Avatar could try to knock Roy off balance by manipulating the earth underneath him. While this would probably make him miss with a small, directed attack (like what he did to Envy's tongue and eyes), it would at best, turn a large explosion from a direct hit to an indirect hit. I really can't see Roy going for those small attacks against the Avatar. Remember, he wanted Envy to suffer. He didn't want it to end quickly. He wanted to cause as much pain as possible. That was why he liquified Envy's tongue. That was why he boiled Envy's eyes. Compare to the fight against Lust where he went straight for overwhelming force and kept at it until it was over.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 05:38 PM
Re: Tremor Sense -

Roy's attack consists of two parts. He uses alchemy to modify the air around him, creating a path of modified, super-flamable air leading to his opponent. There tends to be a larger pocket of this modified air that causes a fiery explosion when lit. This is instant. One moment the air is normal, the next it is modified as it needs to be for his attack. The second part of the attack is for him to light the modified air. Usually by snapping his fingers and creating a spark, though any spark or flame will do. This is done at the same time as part one.

Now, I'll grant you that due to the way alchemy works (powered by tectonic plates), it's porrible that the Avatar could sense the alchemy being performed. However, even if this was the case, how is he supposed to react in time? One moment the air is normal. The next, Roy uses alchemy, changes the air, and snaps his fingers, lighting the air trail. The spark goes off, the air ignites, the air pocket is hit, and the Avatar is engulfed in flame all in less time than it takes to blink.

Now... The air trail can be disrupted by fast winds. However, if the two notice eachother at the same time and both immediately try to act, I don't see how the Avatar could get a shot off fast enough. Bending just plain takes longer than snapping fingers. A wind shield could be blasted away by Roy detonating his attack close to, but not within the tornado, and while this is a bit of speculation, I really don't see any reason why Roy's attack has to go in a straight line. What he does is modify the air to make it super-flamable and create a trail of that super-flamable air to a larger, explosive pocket. Why does the trail have to go straight? Why couldn't he curve it if he needed to?

As said before, the Avatar could try to knock Roy off balance by manipulating the earth underneath him. While this would probably make him miss with a small, directed attack (like what he did to Envy's tongue and eyes), it would at best, turn a large explosion from a direct hit to an indirect hit. I really can't see Roy going for those small attacks against the Avatar. Remember, he wanted Envy to suffer. He didn't want it to end quickly. He wanted to cause as much pain as possible. That was why he liquified Envy's tongue. That was why he boiled Envy's eyes. Compare to the fight against Lust where he went straight for overwhelming force and kept at it until it was over.

If his hand is in a different place the boom won't go off at all until he transmutes again (which isn't instantaneous, but close enough that it doesn't matter) because his hand isn't connected to the alchemized air.

Roy's aim is the key factor here. Mustang usually has his hand out in front of him, not sitting by his side. If he wastes time doing that the Avatar has a moment to strike.

Air moving forward as an unaware Mustang prepares means the attack won't erupt around Aang, and that his air blast is about to turn into a fire blast.

edit: At .25 seconds. .25 seconds is a lot of time in combat, whether with guns, swords, magic martial arts, or alchemy. And it's certainly enough time to dodge with Aang's ability to jump.

Fan
2012-07-23, 05:46 PM
Please post any bending attack connecting at anything but immediate face to face range in .25 seconds.

TheSummoner
2012-07-23, 05:46 PM
Roy snaps at the same time as he performs the alchemy. If his positioning gets shifted, so does the start of the air trail. At most, it skews the entire path of the flame, but it wouldn't stop it from lighting.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 05:56 PM
Roy snaps at the same time as he performs the alchemy. If his positioning gets shifted, so does the start of the air trail. At most, it skews the entire path of the flame, but it wouldn't stop it from lighting.

Fair enough but I still don't see any good results coming from Mustang snapping in that situation. Flame alchemy seems to require his undivided attention which he wouldn't have should he be falling to the ground or being thrown up into the sky.

@Fan: You've seen the show. There are plenty of moments where the bending windup is less than .25. Many of them have already been linked.

Forum Explorer
2012-07-23, 06:04 PM
In the Blue Spirit we also see some very fast running. However I still think breaking Mustang's stance is the easiest way for the Avatar to win. Like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WODZMYD5Yn0) (warning, title contains swearing, it was the best I could find.)

Well that was absolutely hilarious.

However I don't think it would work how the scenario is set up. After all there is a river between the two initially. Would it be able to transmit through the water to the earth on the other side fast enough?

Also Roy might try and take the shot in mid-air by going for a bigger less focused boom. It doesn't take too much concentration for him to do.

Fan
2012-07-23, 06:08 PM
Fair enough but I still don't see any good results coming from Mustang snapping in that situation. Flame alchemy seems to require his undivided attention which he wouldn't have should he be falling to the ground or being thrown up into the sky.

@Fan: You've seen the show. There are plenty of moments where the bending windup is less than .25. Many of them have already been linked.

None of the wind ups are less than .25, let alone with the amount of time it takes for the bending to actually connect, AND the avatar has to have a continuous earth surface in order to bend it, the bridge pretty much stops that from happening right out of the gate.

None of the ones linked come even close to that, the .25 includes mustang's snap.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 06:10 PM
Well that was absolutely hilarious.

However I don't think it would work how the scenario is set up. After all there is a river between the two initially. Would it be able to transmit through the water to the earth on the other side fast enough?

Also Roy might try and take the shot in mid-air by going for a bigger less focused boom. It doesn't take too much concentration for him to do.

If Bumi can lift up giant houses a few city blocks away, there's no real limits on how far a fully realized Avatar can bend. It'd have to be either a bigger boom than we've seen from Mustang. I find it hard to imagine his aim being that good/fast when at the least he'd have to reorient himself, and would probably be more focused on mitigating his fall somehow (possibly using explosive force to cushion himself or something.) And once Aang has that kind of time on his hands, the battle's pretty much over.

Edit: Underground isn't continous? :smallconfused: And sure the wind ups are. A basic element punch takes as long as a punch. Punches don't take .25 seconds. And again, travel time of the air punch is irrelevant so long as it moves the dangerous air.

Fan
2012-07-23, 06:12 PM
If Bumi can lift up giant houses a few city blocks away, there's no real limits on how far a fully realized Avatar can bend. It'd have to be either a bigger boom than we've seen from Mustang. I find it hard to imagine his aim being that good/fast when at the least he'd have to reorient himself, and would probably be more focused on mitigating his fall somehow (possibly using explosive force to cushion himself or something.) And once Aang has that kind of time on his hands, the battle's pretty much over.

Not fast enough, not with the kind of distance (IE. Actual combat distance), that it'd have to cross, Earth Bending is VERY slow when it isn't directly next to the person, and they ALL TELEGRAPH THEIR DIRECT PATHS, meaning they are very easy to dodge. Much easier than the invisible, faster, more lethal attacks that Mustang puts out.

Again, looking at the frames, we see nothing in avatar goes from the telegraphed movements to full initiation, to target in even a single second at actual combat distances.

More than enough time to just blow the head off of the avatar.

Clertar
2012-07-23, 06:21 PM
@Fan: You've seen the show. There are plenty of moments where the bending windup is less than .25. Many of them have already been linked.

Such as what Korra (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJMREXQRY_4) does here and Tenzin here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVcxdZ7DoCM&feature=player_detailpage#t=17s).

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 06:23 PM
Not fast enough, not with the kind of distance (IE. Actual combat distance), that it'd have to cross, Earth Bending is VERY slow when it isn't directly next to the person, and they ALL TELEGRAPH THEIR DIRECT PATHS, meaning they are very easy to dodge. Much easier than the invisible, faster, more lethal attacks that Mustang puts out.

Again, looking at the frames, we see nothing in avatar goes from the telegraphed movements to full initiation, to target in even a single second at actual combat distances.

All long range earth bending has been instantaneous. :smallconfused: There is no delay between motion and bending no matter the distance.

Mustang has three steps to his attack. A) Position and aiming B) Alchemy C) Ignition. B and C happen almost simultaneously. A takes more time especially at the start of a fight. Bending doesn't work this way. As soon as you start the movements the elements react. So while the attack itself takes longer than B and C Aang has the time Mustang takes to do A, and there are plenty of instances of bending as a natural response.

And Telegraphing isn't always the case. For example, the foot stomp gives you about as much warning as Mustang raising his hand, and Airbending is invisible. Besides Mustang doesn't have the agility to prevent a fully realized Avatar from wrecking him, so unless he strikes first he's down and out.

Fan
2012-07-23, 06:23 PM
Such as what Korra (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJMREXQRY_4) does here and Tenzin here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVcxdZ7DoCM&feature=player_detailpage#t=17s).

The first one is WAY more than .25 of a second, and the second one is not only also NOT .25 of a second, but ALSO is so close to his hand that he could have grabbed it with the same motion.

Also Air bending isn't invisible, the manipulation is always clearly visible, and this isn't exactly a one time thing/

And THEN you're saying that Earth bending moves across an interrupted surface, with a technique that's never been used at those ranges, and WAS NEVER INSTANT WHEN IT WAS USED, faster than a guy who is trained to snap as fast as he can..

There is no actual basis to any of those claims, what so ever.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 06:25 PM
The first one is WAY more than .25 of a second, and the second one is not only also NOT .25 of a second, but ALSO is so close to his hand that he could have grabbed it with the same motion.

You're still counting Air Travel Time. :smallannoyed: That's not what matters here.


And THEN you're saying that Earth bending moves across an interrupted surface, with a technique that's never been used at those ranges, and WAS NEVER INSTANT WHEN IT WAS USED, faster than a guy who is trained to snap as fast as he can..

There is no actual basis to any of those claims, what so ever.

Toph used it to summon a hedgehog. Unless you're claiming there's a chasm the earth isn't uninterrupted there (not that I think it would matter because Bender's don't have to be touching the material they bend, that's Alchemy's weakness) And activates instantly as soon as Aang's foot hits the ground faster than a guy who doesn't snap his fingers as fast as he can because he has to aim.

Fan
2012-07-23, 06:27 PM
You're still counting Air Travel Time. :smallannoyed: That's not what matters here.

That, is what matters, as air / earth isn't a kill here, whereas Mustangs shots ARE kills, AND anything at longer ranges requires more wind up than that in every instance.

If Mustang just gets entombed from the waist down, he can have himself cut out. The Avatar cannot regenerate from having his head blown off.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 06:30 PM
That, is what matters, as air / earth isn't a kill here, whereas Mustangs shots ARE kills, AND anything at longer ranges requires more wind up than that in every instance.

If Mustang just gets entombed from the waist down, he can have himself cut out. The Avatar cannot regenerate from having his head blown off.

It doesn't matter that the attacks are nonlethal and Mustangs are because he's never going to get a second one if the Avatar is fighting seriously.

Also more responses edited to your edit.

tyckspoon
2012-07-23, 06:34 PM
Also Air bending isn't invisible, the manipulation is always clearly visible, and this isn't exactly a one time thing/


The bender's movements are certainly visible. The actual motion of the air itself is not- the wind-lines are drawn into the scene by the animators so we, the viewers, can see the action and results and prevent airbenders from looking like they're just using telekinesis. This actually is a minor plot point in one episode- Aang takes a 'wrestling' title from Toph, along with a large bag of prize money, by using his airbending. The organizers of this event conclude that this 'fight' was a collaboration to cheat them between Aang and Toph, because all they saw was Aang wave his staff and then Toph jumped backward off the arena- they *couldn't see* the Airbending strike that actually hit her.

Fan
2012-07-23, 06:46 PM
That's simply not true, the transmission of step forward, and then shift is FAR slower than raising your hand to snap. It's a straight shot in this scenario, the amount of aiming you're imagining here simply isn't needed, and the draw here is infinitely more viable than the stutter step forward.

Roy does this FAR faster than Aang can react, because he's kept up with Wrath / Pride, who has shown to be able to deflect bullets with his sword.

Also, Amon certainly seemed able to side step air bending, AND block it's in coming thing.

The thing with the title is that Aang glided above the ground to prevent Toph from seeing him, and they thought it was cheating BECAUSE she couldn't react, BECAUSE she couldn't see him.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 06:51 PM
That's simply not true, the transmission of step forward, and then shift is FAR slower than raising your hand to snap. It's a straight shot in this scenario, the draw here is infinitely more viable than the stutter step forward.

Can you stomp your foot on the ground in less than .25 seconds? I know I can. Aang can definitely jump in less than .25 seconds, and easily punch in less than .25 seconds. Any one of those will either interrupt, block, or dodge Mustang's attack. Once that is achieved there's enough time for all the might of a fully realized Avatar to be brought down. Mustang has some nasty power behind him, but in terms of raw force he has nothing on the Avatar State.



Roy does this FAR faster than Aang can react, because he's kept up with Wrath / Pride, who has shown to be able to deflect bullets with his sword.

Also, Amon certainly seemed able to side step air bending, AND block it's in coming thing.

The thing with the title is that Aang glided above the ground to prevent Toph from seeing him, and they thought it was cheating BECAUSE she couldn't react, BECAUSE she couldn't see him.

That's just Bull. Roy has shown no such superhuman speed when starting his attacks. And as for dodging that'll be a lot harder against 200 mph winds (Avatar State Yip Yip.)

Amon was a blood bender moving his opponents forms so that their bending strikes were thrown off.

And no, it was the attack with the staff that caused the boulder to complain to the boss. He saw the kid move his staff, and the blind bandit fall of the stage without contact.

Fan
2012-07-23, 06:52 PM
Can you stomp your foot on the ground in less than .25 seconds? I know I can. Aang can definitely jump in less than .25 seconds, and easily punch in less than .25 seconds. Any one of those will either interrupt, block, or dodge Mustang's attack. Once that is achieved there's enough time for all the might of a fully realized Avatar to be brought down. Mustang has some nasty power behind him, but in terms of raw force he has nothing on the Avatar State.

Please pull out a stop watch and check that fact.

Because I can garuntee you, you can't, and longer range attacks require more movements.

With my foot already raised to stomp, it takes me .353 of a second, and I run track so my reflexes aren't exactly dulled.

Without it raised, it takes FAR longer, longer enough that it is death.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 07:01 PM
Please pull out a stop watch and check that fact.

Because I can garuntee you, you can't, and longer range attacks require more movements.

With my foot already raised to stomp, it takes me .353 of a second, and I run track so my reflexes aren't exactly dulled.

Without it raised, it takes FAR longer, longer enough that it is death.

And how are you factoring out your reaction speed in this? (what with hitting the stop watch.

If we're running it that way, how about we time how long it takes for you to move your arm from your side forward to face your opponent, and then snap once it's there. Now compare that to simply jutting your arm forward at any length (all that's necessary for air bending.)

Also more edited responses to your edit in above post.

Fan
2012-07-23, 07:06 PM
And how are you factoring out your reaction speed in this? (what with hitting the stop watch.

If we're running it that way, how about we time how long it takes for you to move your arm from your side forward to face your opponent, and then snap once it's there. Now compare that to simply jutting your arm forward at any length (all that's necessary for air bending.)

Also more edited responses to your edit in above post.

I had someone else hit the watch via a mouse click on a stopwatch program I keep around on my computer for dash speeds (laptop, laptop.), the mouse has a delayed response time of 5 milliseconds if you want to factor that in, we tested it 5 times with a range of .353-.435 on the stomp. I am VERY much a man of science as well, and I recognize single tests are not indicative of any conclusive data.

And again, Roy just seems to be able to aim it with his eyes and incorporate it into natural movements FASTER than Aang has been shown to be able to.

Again, Pride / Wrath (Fuhrer Bradley), has demonstrated superhuman blade deflection of high velocity rounds from the M1 Garand, and even from heavy machine gun fire.

Mustang was able to keep up with him 1 on 1, and with Envy who's able to preform similar feats.

Forum Explorer
2012-07-23, 07:15 PM
If Bumi can lift up giant houses a few city blocks away, there's no real limits on how far a fully realized Avatar can bend. It'd have to be either a bigger boom than we've seen from Mustang. I find it hard to imagine his aim being that good/fast when at the least he'd have to reorient himself, and would probably be more focused on mitigating his fall somehow (possibly using explosive force to cushion himself or something.) And once Aang has that kind of time on his hands, the battle's pretty much over.

Edit: Underground isn't continous? :smallconfused: And sure the wind ups are. A basic element punch takes as long as a punch. Punches don't take .25 seconds. And again, travel time of the air punch is irrelevant so long as it moves the dangerous air.

Doesn't distance increase the time of Earth Bending? (Well all bending but that's a moot point) Also I thought it couldn't go through water so it would have to go under the river which increases the time even more. Not by much admittedly but we are dealing in times of under a second. So every little bit counts.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 07:16 PM
I had someone else hit the watch via a mouse click on a stopwatch program I keep around on my computer for dash speeds (laptop, laptop.), the mouse has a delayed response time of 5 milliseconds if you want to factor that in, we tested it 5 times with a range of .353-.435 on the stomp. I am VERY much a man of science as well, and I recognize single tests are not indicative of any conclusive data.

And again, Roy just seems to be able to aim it with his eyes and incorporate it into natural movements FASTER than Aang has been shown to be able to.

Again, Pride / Wrath (Fuhrer Bradley), has demonstrated superhuman blade deflection of high velocity rounds from the M1 Garand, and even from heavy machine gun fire.

Mustang was able to keep up with him 1 on 1, and with Envy who's able to preform similar feats.

The Fuhrer could deflect bullets sure, but I bet if you measure that with how quickly he was otherwise moving you'll find inconsistencies as we are venturing deep into the uncharted realm of Anime physics when we've gotten to this level. The Fuhrer is mentioned as fast. Scar is called fast. Envy is called fast. Mustang is never remarked upon for being superhumanly fast as far as I know. He has to move his arm up to fire, Aang has to do the same. Airbending blast becomes fire blast, but it's still moving towards Mustang.

Edit: where is it shown that there's a delay between movement, and bending remotely? In nightmares and daydreams Toph kicks the ground and has some sort of hedgehog tossed into her hand (belly side facing palm) with all the effort it took Aang to be smacked into a tree when she first joined the group. Really big objects take effort, and over really really long distances more effort is needed, but a river's width doesn't qualify.

Edit2: And to a fully realized Avatar, even size starts not to matter (flashbacks to Aang smashing pillars together with a wave of his arms.)

druid91
2012-07-23, 07:29 PM
Now I'm wondering how Edward would fare, as he is more in line with what someone from the avatar verse would expect in a fight.

Fan
2012-07-23, 08:06 PM
The Fuhrer could deflect bullets sure, but I bet if you measure that with how quickly he was otherwise moving you'll find inconsistencies as we are venturing deep into the uncharted realm of Anime physics when we've gotten to this level. The Fuhrer is mentioned as fast. Scar is called fast. Envy is called fast. Mustang is never remarked upon for being superhumanly fast as far as I know. He has to move his arm up to fire, Aang has to do the same. Airbending blast becomes fire blast, but it's still moving towards Mustang.

Edit: where is it shown that there's a delay between movement, and bending remotely? In nightmares and daydreams Toph kicks the ground and has some sort of hedgehog tossed into her hand (belly side facing palm) with all the effort it took Aang to be smacked into a tree when she first joined the group. Really big objects take effort, and over really really long distances more effort is needed, but a river's width doesn't qualify.

Edit2: And to a fully realized Avatar, even size starts not to matter (flashbacks to Aang smashing pillars together with a wave of his arms.)

In the Avatar state, however again, it's like a bullet v.s. an arrow. Yes, an arrow is still fast, but when you're talking about which kills the other guy first, pulling a trigger is faster than pulling back a draw string AND the projectile speed is faster.

A perfect analogy in this case.

Traab
2012-07-23, 08:21 PM
If Bumi can lift up giant houses a few city blocks away, there's no real limits on how far a fully realized Avatar can bend. It'd have to be either a bigger boom than we've seen from Mustang. I find it hard to imagine his aim being that good/fast when at the least he'd have to reorient himself, and would probably be more focused on mitigating his fall somehow (possibly using explosive force to cushion himself or something.) And once Aang has that kind of time on his hands, the battle's pretty much over.

Edit: Underground isn't continous? :smallconfused: And sure the wind ups are. A basic element punch takes as long as a punch. Punches don't take .25 seconds. And again, travel time of the air punch is irrelevant so long as it moves the dangerous air.

That part right there, I have to comment on. Aaang isnt going to be raising his fist and punching any faster than roy is going to be raising HIS arm and snapping. The difference is, aangs air ball is just leaving his fist when roys attack slaps him in the head. So unless aang is suddenly planning to unleash an instantly fatal level first strike, (Which I am fairly sure he has never done in the entire series) Aang gets blown up while at worst roy takes a wind punch a second or two later. Assuming he doesnt dodge, as air punches arent undetectable.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 08:24 PM
That part right there, I have to comment on. Aaang isnt going to be raising his fist and punching any faster than roy is going to be raising HIS arm and snapping. The difference is, aangs air ball is just leaving his fist when roys attack slaps him in the head. So unless aang is suddenly planning to unleash an instantly fatal level first strike, (Which I am fairly sure he has never done in the entire series) Aang gets blown up while at worst roy takes a wind punch a second or two later. Assuming he doesnt dodge, as air punches arent undetectable.

Except that the whole point is that the air punch would manipulate the alchemized air and send it back.

Traab
2012-07-23, 08:42 PM
Except that the whole point is that the air punch would manipulate the alchemized air and send it back.

At worst it would blow up 6 inches away from aang, as his attacks move slower than roys. And thats assuming the air ball even connects with the path roys flame grenade is taking. Aaang isnt going to unleash a 10 foot by 10 foot hurricane force wind at roy, you might as well talk about bullets bouncing off each other in midair for the sheer level of bad luck that would take for aangs air punch to have any effect on the explosion. (Ok, slightly better odds, but still not very good ones)

Fan
2012-07-23, 08:42 PM
Except that the whole point is that the air punch would manipulate the alchemized air and send it back.

Except he can't do that fast enough, there's absolutely no way he can do that.

Even trained martial artists (Bruce Lee) only clock in at 0.25 seconds at a 1 inch jab, which is considerably shorter than the motions for bending.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 08:48 PM
Except he can't do that fast enough, there's absolutely no way he can do that.

Even trained martial artists (Bruce Lee) only clock in at 0.25 seconds at a 1 inch jab, which is considerably shorter than the motions for bending.

Then how's Mustang getting his hand up within that time?

@Traab: Fully realized Avatar Aang can send whatever size air beam he wants at Roy. :smalltongue:

Fan
2012-07-23, 08:50 PM
Then how's Mustang getting his hand up within that time?

@Traab: Fully realized Avatar Aang can send whatever size air beam he wants at Roy. :smalltongue:

Alchemy.:smallcool:

Again, the Alchemists in FMA routinely preform Superhuman feats, and keep up with bullet timers, I go by FEATS, not by IMPLICATIONS. What that character is shown as doing on screen, is what they are capable of, AND NOTHING ELSE. Hell, Alex Louis Armstrong's whole thing is that he is super humanly strong, and his entirely family line is that way. (Like, for instance, his twiggy sister lifting a piano with one hand, or him lifting a chunk of rock the size of his torso and tossing it at bullet speeds with one hand.)

And again, proof plox that he can do this. Show him doing it out of the avatar state.

Traab
2012-07-23, 08:52 PM
Then how's Mustang getting his hand up within that time?

@Traab: Fully realized Avatar Aang can send whatever size air beam he wants at Roy. :smalltongue:

Yeah full avatar mode aang is super powerful, I was talking regular aang. He is going to launch a ball of air about the size of a basketball like normal, and it will 9 times out of 10 not cross paths with roys attack. And unlike Fan I am willing to cancel out aangs need to take a stance and throw a punch with roys need to raise his arm and snap his fingers the first time. But as I said, even if they both launch an attack at the same instant, roys travels WAY faster and is harder to dodge due to it not being a basketball of wind moving at him.

Xondoure
2012-07-23, 10:20 PM
Yeah full avatar mode aang is super powerful, I was talking regular aang. He is going to launch a ball of air about the size of a basketball like normal, and it will 9 times out of 10 not cross paths with roys attack. And unlike Fan I am willing to cancel out aangs need to take a stance and throw a punch with roys need to raise his arm and snap his fingers the first time. But as I said, even if they both launch an attack at the same instant, roys travels WAY faster and is harder to dodge due to it not being a basketball of wind moving at him.

This isn't a fight between regular Aang and Mustang. It's a fight between post comet Aang and Mustang. A fully realized Avatar doesn't use basketball sized air blasts on threats to balance in the world.

Geostationary
2012-07-23, 10:46 PM
Alchemy.:smallcool:



That's really the explaination you want to use? If that's the case, why can't we say "airbending" for how Aang can move sufficently fast? We've seen airbending enhance his speed on several occasions, so there's no reason he couldn't do it here, unlike with alchemy where we've only seen really fast homunculi, but not alchemists who could use it to speed themselves up (at least that I know of). Homunculi are fast by virtue of their speed, not their Alchemy, unless shown otherwise.

Avatar is a world full of kung-fu masters, and as such they also do these absurd feats of bending- it's just harder to measure, as they're bound by genre/style conventions (slo-mo and whatnot, lack of guns) and studio (no burning people to death onscreen, in detail). It's been shown that benders can operate at absurdly high speeds, you just keep rejecting it outright. You use slow motion for two reasons: to increase the drama of the moment in some way, and to emphasize just how fast things are going. It has to be shown slowed down, because it's just that fast. Any faster, and you're going to miss it, or it may lose its impact.

Fjolnir
2012-07-23, 10:51 PM
Remember, while we are dealing with fully realized avatars, the avatar state is out, so...

Traab
2012-07-23, 11:06 PM
This isn't a fight between regular Aang and Mustang. It's a fight between post comet Aang and Mustang. A fully realized Avatar doesn't use basketball sized air blasts on threats to balance in the world.

How the hell is roy mustang a threat to balance in the world? Will making all women wear short skirts destroy the planet? WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST WOMEN IN SHORT SKIRTS?!

Fan
2012-07-23, 11:22 PM
That's really the explaination you want to use? If that's the case, why can't we say "airbending" for how Aang can move sufficently fast? We've seen airbending enhance his speed on several occasions, so there's no reason he couldn't do it here, unlike with alchemy where we've only seen really fast homunculi, but not alchemists who could use it to speed themselves up (at least that I know of). Homunculi are fast by virtue of their speed, not their Alchemy, unless shown otherwise.

Avatar is a world full of kung-fu masters, and as such they also do these absurd feats of bending- it's just harder to measure, as they're bound by genre/style conventions (slo-mo and whatnot, lack of guns) and studio (no burning people to death onscreen, in detail). It's been shown that benders can operate at absurdly high speeds, you just keep rejecting it outright. You use slow motion for two reasons: to increase the drama of the moment in some way, and to emphasize just how fast things are going. It has to be shown slowed down, because it's just that fast. Any faster, and you're going to miss it, or it may lose its impact.

Thanks for quoting one word of my post that was an offhand joke.

Also, slow mo is also used to make things more dramatic, are we to assume that all explosions are automatically that fast?

Or perhaps that they didn't want to show you JUST HOW CLOSE that dodge was?

Because outside of the slow mo, and gag scenes, they aren't that fast, and the slow mo is debatable.

Mikeavelli
2012-07-23, 11:43 PM
Roy Mustang never actually keeps up with Bradley. In the Original, he's got a trump card, and planned out the battlefield to complement his Alchemy, resulting in what was still a very narrow victory.

In Brotherhood, the one time the two of them get in direct conflict;


Pride swords Mustang's hands to the floor before Mustang can even react.


He's a glass cannon artillery type character, and has only mediocre speed and hand-to-hand combat skills compared to the rest of the FMA cast.

INoKnowNames
2012-07-23, 11:44 PM
No one else wants to consider the whole potential "Super Dodge" bit? I feel that's worth looking more into, if you ask me.


Now I'm wondering how Edward would fare, as he is more in line with what someone from the avatar verse would expect in a fight.

Indeed he is. And in that sort of situation, I'd be surprised for -anyone- to argue against the Avatar. Ed's Alchemy at his fastest is a clap, there by making his body an array followed by a press to whatever he's touching. And he's on average, Earth Bending.

Aang's got speed and attacks that require someone with bullet-speed and rocket-strong attacks to really hit him, and can strike back about reasonably as strong. Heck, once Ed tries to transmute something out of the ground, Aang could bind all of his limbs into place, then modify the beninding to completely imobilise Ed's body.

..... that conversation's a hell of a lot shorter. ... sorry, ed.


How the hell is roy mustang a threat to balance in the world? Will making all women wear short skirts destroy the planet? WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST WOMEN IN SHORT SKIRTS?!

Depends, what about Women who have no business wearing Tiny Miniskirts?

endoperez
2012-07-24, 12:05 AM
I.. call bullcrap.

All of the bending moves take more frames than Roy's, disregarding obviously done for dramatic effect slow motion.

No offense, but first you said that slow-motion is ignored because there's no evidence, now you're saying it's ignored because of your subjective opinion.

If I said that "Single frame snap is just for dramatic effect, too." would you demand an objective proof of that? Why are you still using speeds calculated from frames since all animation is done with dramatic, not science, in mind, and here you disregard the dramatic?

I don't necessarily disagree with the things this thread is agreeing on, but to me it seems like most people are unwilling to change their opinions already. INoKnowNames is a refreshing exception.

Fjolnir
2012-07-24, 12:09 AM
I merely argued that aang has faster than normal human speed, and provided examples from an episode to that effect, he is also very capable of wide swaths of air with his glider folded into a staff, using them to blow away fn troops in a wide arc...

endoperez
2012-07-24, 12:24 AM
I found a clip where a non-firebender is blasted with fire aand isn't burned. The discussion is past that point now, but I'll post it to put that firebender fire immunity theory to rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR3l7LmtPkw&feature=player_detailpage#t=98s

Also, earthbending does travel in a line, taking longer to reach farther , in most types of attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=541gq0qAlx8&feature=player_detailpage#t=100s

Also, re:showing what Aang can do out of Avatar State. Funny, the only fight Aang has been in since going realized avatar and not using avatar state was, huh, never. Ozai, Yakone. But we do have videos of other realized avatars doing their thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9yqNYtaVpw

Seems like "any size they want" to me. Airbending a building into toothpicks? edit: sorry, seems like that particular example was in fact using avatar state. Hard to remeber.

MLai
2012-07-24, 12:25 AM
@ My "firebenders cannot be burnt" comment:
It's being taken completely out of context, being used on a discussion that has passed it 5 pages ago. Don't look at my original quote, look at what I was saying last: A firebender is not immune to fire. I'm saying they have a passive resistance/shielding to fire for when their proper forms fail and they don't have enough time to properly deflect/block.

So why do they fight Agni Kais? (1) You can eventually overwhelm your opponent with superior firepower and then he'll still be burnt. (2) Firebending has concussive/explosive force behind it. The passive resistance prevents burn wounds, it doesn't prevent being knocked around.

When I said all that, I was specifically disputing the Roy "insta-kill" trick working on firebenders. I was saying Roy cannot just sneak an air grenade into a firebender's mouth, because the moment his little spark fuse zips close enough to a firebender's personal space, it is instantly extinguished from the bender's passive shielding/warding. Roy can try this all day long; the little spark is way too weak to ever "overwhelm" the firebender's passive close-proximity shielding/warding.

I was not saying Roy cannot just overwhelm a firebender with rapid-fire conflagrations, or that Roy cannot use an explosive type fireball to injure the firebender with concussive force. He can do these things just outside the firebender's personal space. But these aren't insta-kill moves against a world-class firebender.


He's a glass cannon artillery type character, and has only mediocre speed and hand-to-hand combat skills compared to the rest of the FMA cast.
100% agree. This fight basically boils down to a man with a gun vs Bruce Lee, but Bruce Lee in this case has never seen a gun in his life.

If Roy walks in thinking like an assassin, while Aang thinks they're gonna talk a bit before fighting, Aang's lost. If Roy's purpose is to say -capture- Aang, or defeat Aang without killing/maiming him... and he starts off by holding back the way he held back against Edward, then Aang will quickly figure out how Roy does his "bending", and exploit the weakness the way FMA-Fuhrer did to the point where Roy is completely powerless against Aang.

Aang is a master airbender. Once he realizes Roy is manipulating air + fire (in a new way), I believe he'd be able to "see" the fuse paths and air pockets as well as FMA-Fuhrer did. He'd be able to "cut" the fuses and "disperse" the air pockets as fast as Roy could aim them.

endoperez
2012-07-24, 12:33 AM
I'm saying they have a passive resistance/shielding to fire for when their proper forms fail and they don't have enough time to properly deflect/block.

But that earthbender has the same resistance/shielding.

Since the earthbender is not a firebender, it's not a firebending skill.

Xondoure
2012-07-24, 01:21 AM
I found a clip where a non-firebender is blasted with fire aand isn't burned. The discussion is past that point now, but I'll post it to put that firebender fire immunity theory to rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR3l7LmtPkw&feature=player_detailpage#t=98s

Also, earthbending does travel in a line, taking longer to reach farther , in most types of attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=541gq0qAlx8&feature=player_detailpage#t=100s

Also, re:showing what Aang can do out of Avatar State. Funny, the only fight Aang has been in since going realized avatar and not using avatar state was, huh, never. Ozai, Yakone. But we do have videos of other realized avatars doing their thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9yqNYtaVpw

Seems like "any size they want" to me. Airbending a building into toothpicks? edit: sorry, seems like that particular example was in fact using avatar state. Hard to remeber.

The thing about Earthbending can't be true. It often originates from the bender, but we see it used from a distance by Aang himself chasing Ozai. We see Bumi do it on a huge scale, and we see Toph do it to a hedgehog in a forest hundreds of meters away with perfect accuracy and zero delay.

endoperez
2012-07-24, 01:47 AM
The thing about Earthbending can't be true. It often originates from the bender, but we see it used from a distance by Aang himself chasing Ozai. We see Bumi do it on a huge scale, and we see Toph do it to a hedgehog in a forest hundreds of meters away with perfect accuracy and zero delay.

Okay. Then what about this: most types of earthbending attacks travel in a line, taking longer to reach farther.

That allows for the exceptions.

Xondoure
2012-07-24, 02:00 AM
Okay. Then what about this: most types of earthbending attacks travel in a line, taking longer to reach farther.

That allows for the exceptions.

I actually missed your most on the first post. Apologies. :smallredface:

MLai
2012-07-24, 02:21 AM
But that earthbender has the same resistance/shielding. Since the earthbender is not a firebender, it's not a firebending skill.
I really don't want to nitpick that scene, since I'm the one who asked for it, and I'm glad someone took the effort and found an example, and I loved that episode. So I'll preface it by saying this is indeed an example of writers not wanting to get R-rated, but you can still see the firebender fire-resistance at play. I have to get a little long-winded:

(1) In the Zuko vs Zhao scene, both fighter get similarly knocked back by belches of flame, while half-naked. No clothing protection, not blocking properly at all. No burns.
Evil earthbender deserter? Fully clothed in earthbender army uniform. A nation which has been at war with Fire Nation for 100 years. So logically their uniforms would be flame resistant at least somewhat.
What about his head which is unshielded? The guy saw the flame-belch coming, and had enough time to drop his weapons and adopt a guard stance. As the flames covered the screen, he shielded his face. By the poised way he fell down (head not hitting the ground, ukemi technique), it's even possible that he half-leapt away from the flame-belch.

(2) Oh look, Zuko is standing up slowly in the middle of a field of flames. He's not doing firebending motions. The flame tendrils are not redirected away from him. But... he's not burnt. He then jogs thru the flames which are 1.5x his height.

(3) In Korra's graduation fight with her fire-instructors, she engulfed them in fireballs. They were completely overwhelmed; they passed out. Their clothes are so charred they're smoking, and their faces are black with ash and soot. Yet, their hair, eyebrows, and beards are intact. And their skin are ofc not burnt. Yes it's for comic relief, but compared to evil earthbender's brief exposure to a belch of flame, orders of magnitude different.

Basically, yes it's true the cartoon will never show ppl burned in battle. However, the writers/animators have a lot more freedom when it comes to firebenders getting hit by fire, compared to non-firebenders getting hit by fire.

The evil earthbender guy could never have gotten away with being engulfed in a fireball, depicted as smoking from his clothes, his face black with ash and soot, and yet strangely his skin and hair not being burned at all. The audience wouldn't buy it.

endoperez
2012-07-24, 04:17 AM
Fire hits Katara, she is thrown back, she is unconscious (more or less), there is smoke. Wrong kind of smoke, I guess?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-AeMNkMvEI&t=25s