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View Full Version : Song of Ice and Fire Alignment Nerdiness! MAJOR SPOILERS



INDYSTAR188
2012-07-25, 08:44 PM
So.... first let me say that if you have not read the books and do not wan't to have the surprises ruined for you please READ NO FURTHER! This is a discussion thread for what you think each characters alignment might or might not be based on their known actions. I am particularly interested in your opinions on Tyrion and Jaime Lannister as well as Jon Snow but feel free to discuss anyone's alignment that you're interested in.

VanBuren
2012-07-25, 11:15 PM
A quick debate elsewhere on the forum failed to resolve this, but I still firmly believe Joffrey to be Chaotic Evil. I also am confident stating that Ned Stark is Lawful Good.

Selrahc
2012-07-26, 02:03 AM
Alignment is a silly thing, and trying to shoehorn it onto random works is not really a good idea. It doesn't work as a description of a human. It tends to be just a simple label, or worse a moral summation of a character.

Jaime Lannister is a broken human. Traumatized by his time serving under Aerys as a teen and watching people getting burned alive over and over again, he has convinced himself that life is unforgiving and that nothing he does matters. He is also in somewhat of a nihilistic depression. He *also* thinks he is one of the best things to ever happen to the planet, with his golden lineage and his unbeatable skill at arms. All of this complicated psychological baggage leads him to do some heinous and unforgivable things, such as the attempted murder of Bran. During the third book Jaime gets a wake up call during first his travels with Brienne, and then following his mutilation. His ideology is shattered both by somebody who really does live up to the heroic code he has been scorning, and by the destruction of his identity as a wunderkind swordsman. In the wake of this he starts to heavily rethink his course in life, ending his destructive, self immolating affair with his sister and attempting to behave in a more knightly manner. You could say, "Neutral Evil->Lawful Neutral", but neither alignment sums up anything like his character. He is acting the way he does in reaction to actual character motivations.

Tyrion Lannister breaks the system even more. He has encountered casual cruelty all his life and he is apt to play up to it at every occasion. He will be cruel for the sake of being cruel. Taking people apart with his wit, or with his funds. He has a raging jealousy and a fixation on prostitutes due to his first wife. At the same time he feels a great aching need to prove himself a true Lannister and a true man, by doing whatever task he has been asked to perform as well as possible. That entails molding his views to a role, which in the case of hand of the king was quite a vicious little post. At the same time, he has a sense of justice, a need to help the unfortunate, due to a certain empathy for their plight, often despite their hatred of him. All this leads to somebody who will often do the decent thing (looking out for the common folk of King's Landing, saving Sansa Stark from Joffrey) but occasionally do an utterly reprehensible thing (the killing of Shae's minstrel friend, treatment of Illyrio's servants). The alignment system just doesn't describe him at all, and would probably exasperatedly shrug and put him at true neutral.

Cikomyr
2012-07-26, 05:46 AM
Alignment is a silly thing, and trying to shoehorn it onto random works is not really a good idea. It doesn't work as a description of a human. It tends to be just a simple label, or worse a moral summation of a character.

Jaime Lannister is a broken human. Traumatized by his time serving under Aerys as a teen and watching people getting burned alive over and over again, he has convinced himself that life is unforgiving and that nothing he does matters. He is also in somewhat of a nihilistic depression. He *also* thinks he is one of the best things to ever happen to the planet, with his golden lineage and his unbeatable skill at arms. All of this complicated psychological baggage leads him to do some heinous and unforgivable things, such as the attempted murder of Bran. During the third book Jaime gets a wake up call during first his travels with Brienne, and then following his mutilation. His ideology is shattered both by somebody who really does live up to the heroic code he has been scorning, and by the destruction of his identity as a wunderkind swordsman. In the wake of this he starts to heavily rethink his course in life, ending his destructive, self immolating affair with his sister and attempting to behave in a more knightly manner. You could say, "Neutral Evil->Lawful Neutral", but neither alignment sums up anything like his character. He is acting the way he does in reaction to actual character motivations.

Tyrion Lannister breaks the system even more. He has encountered casual cruelty all his life and he is apt to play up to it at every occasion. He will be cruel for the sake of being cruel. Taking people apart with his wit, or with his funds. He has a raging jealousy and a fixation on prostitutes due to his first wife. At the same time he feels a great aching need to prove himself a true Lannister and a true man, by doing whatever task he has been asked to perform as well as possible. That entails molding his views to a role, which in the case of hand of the king was quite a vicious little post. At the same time, he has a sense of justice, a need to help the unfortunate, due to a certain empathy for their plight, often despite their hatred of him. All this leads to somebody who will often do the decent thing (looking out for the common folk of King's Landing, saving Sansa Stark from Joffrey) but occasionally do an utterly reprehensible thing (the killing of Shae's minstrel friend, treatment of Illyrio's servants). The alignment system just doesn't describe him at all, and would probably exasperatedly shrug and put him at true neutral.

+1!!! :applaudes:

Killer Angel
2012-07-26, 06:04 AM
I also am confident stating that Ned Stark was Lawful Stupid Good.

Fixed for you. :smallwink:


The alignment system just doesn't describe him at all, and would probably exasperatedly shrug and put him at true neutral.

I believe Tyrion's alignment can be defined as "Interestingly Complex".
With a certain amount of chaotic in it.

LordRahl6
2012-07-26, 09:54 AM
This has been MAJOR speculation for the last fifteen years, but there are theories that Rheagar Targaryen + Lyanna Stark = Jon Snow.:smallwink:

Features that seem to proof this are the last words of Lyanna, "Promise me, Ned" as well the evidence the Prince ran off with her after crowning her "Queen of Love and Beauty" in the tourney.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-07-26, 10:33 AM
Yeah, that's one of the more interesting theories, because it would mean that
Jon would be one of the contenders for the Throne. Then you'd have what, Tommen, Myrcella, Stannis, Jon, Dany, and wassisface, the boy being lead by Jon Connington.

Of course, everyone knows that the clear best result would be Jon/Dany/Tyrion 3 heads of dragons.

Obviously.

LordRahl6
2012-07-26, 10:37 AM
Yeah, that's one of the more interesting theories, because it would mean that
Jon would be one of the contenders for the Throne. Then you'd have what, Tommen, Myrcella, Stannis, Jon, Dany, and wassisface, the boy being lead by Jon Connington.

Of course, everyone knows that the clear best result would be Jon/Dany/Tyrion 3 heads of dragons.

Obviously.

That would be Aegon VI who supposedly had his head cracked as a babe. It would fill out the number of "heads" of the dragon.:smallamused:

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-07-26, 10:45 AM
That would be Aegon VI who supposedly had his head cracked as a babe. It would fill out the number of "heads" of the dragon.:smallamused:

Supposing that the Heads had to be Targaryens, it would, wouldn't it. But so far Aegon hasn't proved himself to be of much value... If Aegon can't prove himself real soon, I don't think he's dragon materiel.

Also I am SO a Connington fanboy.

Weezer
2012-07-26, 11:22 AM
Yeah, that's one of the more interesting theories, because it would mean that
Jon would be one of the contenders for the Throne. Then you'd have what, Tommen, Myrcella, Stannis, Jon, Dany, and wassisface, the boy being lead by Jon Connington.

Of course, everyone knows that the clear best result would be Jon/Dany/Tyrion 3 heads of dragons.

Obviously.

Then of course there is the theory (which I don't really believe) that

Tyrion is a Targ, therefore making a Jon/Dany/Tyrion combo a pure Targ one.

Seerow
2012-07-26, 11:28 AM
Is there some sort of law somewhere that says you can't have an ASOIAF discussion without automatically delving into R+L=J?

I mean when the OP asked for your opinions on characters like Jon Snow, I really doubt he meant your opinions on his parents, but on his alignment (you know, the topic of the discussion)

The Glyphstone
2012-07-26, 11:37 AM
Is there some sort of law somewhere that says you can't have an ASOIAF discussion without automatically delving into R+L=J?

I mean when the OP asked for your opinions on characters like Jon Snow, I really doubt he meant your opinions on his parents, but on his alignment (you know, the topic of the discussion)

It's called GodwinMartin's Law: As the length of a SoFaI discussion increases, the likelihood of someone mentioned R+L=J approaches 1.

Seerow
2012-07-26, 11:38 AM
It's called GodwinMartin's Law: As the length of a SoFaI discussion increases, the likelihood of someone mentioned R+L=J approaches 1.


But we barely got 4 posts in http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp124/SirOshi/negativeman.png


edit: fixed the image, forgot which forum I was on for a minute.

Elhann
2012-07-26, 12:02 PM
I believe Tyrion's alignment can be defined as "Interestingly Complex".
With a certain amount of chaotic in it.

While no one in his right mind would deny that, Tyrion is fairly CG in my opinion. "Fitting into an alignment" doesn't mean "uninteresting"
Just like Evil people can have good feelings and friends, Good people don't have to be nice.
And Tyrion is far from being nice to powerful people, but he acts pretty kindly with the weak ones. The minstrel affair was probably overkill, but I guess that's his Lannister way to say "don't mess with me, you idiot". But generally he is good. Examples: Bran's saddle, treating Sansa like a person and not a ragdoll, Penny in DwD.

Regarding the Law-Chaos axis: while a Lannister always pays his debts, he doesn't seem to value authority that much (see his confession to Lysa Arryn, or his trial for Joffrey's murder). He thinks out of the box more often than not (the Chain), and favours sort-term gratification rather than an orderly planned life (we could count how many times he speaks before he should, and his taste for drinking, gambling and visiting porfessional women)

I'd peg him as CG, with more emphasis on the Good than the Chaotic, actually.

INDYSTAR188
2012-07-26, 12:33 PM
Alignment is a silly thing, and trying to shoehorn it onto random works is not really a good idea. It doesn't work as a description of a human. It tends to be just a simple label, or worse a moral summation of a character.

I know it's not perfect and might not even truely apply here but it's just for fun. As to your summation of Tyrion and Jaime... I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly. You pretty much said exactly what I was thinking about both of them, very well said.


This has been MAJOR speculation for the last fifteen years, but there are theories that


Rheagar Targaryen + Lyanna Stark = Jon Snow.


Features that seem to proof this are the last words of Lyanna, "Promise me, Ned" as well the evidence the Prince ran off with her after crowning her "Queen of Love and Beauty" in the tourney.

If Jon's dead this doesn't matter anymore :smalltongue:! I don't think he is though...


Is there some sort of law somewhere that says you can't have an ASOIAF discussion without automatically delving into R+L=J?

I mean when the OP asked for your opinions on characters like Jon Snow, I really doubt he meant your opinions on his parents, but on his alignment (you know, the topic of the discussion)

While I appreciate your sentiment, I think this could be an appropriate place for any kind of uber ASOIAF nerdiness (up to and including the SPOILERED discussion). We could go into classes if you wanted (not that I think that would be a very detailed discussion.

kyoryu
2012-07-26, 01:03 PM
I'd peg him as CG, with more emphasis on the Good than the Chaotic, actually.

I generally agree, though I'd argue that after

he kills his father and Shae

he drifts significantly towards CN, at the minimum.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-26, 01:11 PM
A quick debate elsewhere on the forum failed to resolve this, but I still firmly believe Joffrey to be Chaotic Evil. I also am confident stating that Ned Stark is Lawful Good.

I agree with these alignments.

Lawful Good: The Maid of Tarth
Lawful Neutral: Stannis


Also, there are obviously points at which certain chars change alignment. Ie, the surviving starks.

INDYSTAR188
2012-07-26, 01:29 PM
I agree with these alignments.

Lawful Good: The Maid of Tarth
Lawful Neutral: Stannis


Also, there are obviously points at which certain chars change alignment. Ie, the surviving starks.

Excellent point! I wonder what catagory Arya might fall into? I know as of the third book she feels guilty for some of her deeds but in the fifth she's rapidly developing into an emotionally numb assassin. Maybe CN?

Zejety
2012-07-26, 01:42 PM
Excellent point! I wonder what catagory Arya might fall into? I know as of the third book she feels guilty for some of her deeds but in the fifth she's rapidly developing into an emotionally numb assassin. Maybe CN?

The Faceless Men's ways in general seem very LN to me, although in D&D they'd probably be LE (assassins must be evil).
Arya is not a true Faceless (Wo)Man, though. She definitely is not lawful (yet?) and I'll go ahead claim that she is chaotic (she acts lawful for her training's sake).
As the story progresses, the frequency with which she adds to her body count increases steadily. I would be very careful to call her good by the end of ADwD. I think she mostly cares about the people close to her, which is not a trait exclusive to good characters.

My guess would be CN (with good tendancies).

Lord Tyger
2012-07-26, 01:45 PM
If Jon's dead this doesn't matter anymore :smalltongue:! I don't think he is though...


I think it was pretty clearly set up for Jon to live on as a Warg.

Cikomyr
2012-07-26, 01:54 PM
I always liked the idea that the Sun & Spear motifs for House Martell and Dorne represents Doran and Oberyn Martell.

One is swift, obvious and straightforward.
The other is slow to kill you, deadlier, insidious and inexorable.

Dienekes
2012-07-26, 02:01 PM
Gotta disagree, they murder for money. That places them in the Evil category. The society as a whole would be Lawful Evil, Arya is probably currently True Neutral but keep an eye on her, cause I don't think where she's headed is gonna end pretty.

Let's see, what else.

Sandor Clegane: Neutral Evil, hopefully finding redemption
Gregor Clegane: Chaotic Evil, though I think now he's unaligned or whatever mindless zombies have
Littlefinger: Chaotic Evil
Cersei: Stupid Evil
Jaime: currently trying to be lawful good. Whether you think he has actually redeemed himself from chaotic evil is up to you (for me, no, no he has not)
Theon: Went from TN to NE, I do not think that has changed even if he went through a lot of torture
Sansa: True Stupid
Khal Drogo: Chaotic Evil, but a nicer version I suppose for a guy who spent his entire life killing and raping

People whose alignment I think is impossible to place, currently
Varys: could be anywhere from chaotic neutral to lawful evil, he's a complicated fellow
Daeny: Yeah, I'm at a loss here

INDYSTAR188
2012-07-26, 02:15 PM
I think it was pretty clearly set up for Jon to live on as a Warg.

Do you really think so? I would be SHOCKED! I think he's slowly going to recover but knowing Martin anythings possible!

Tyndmyr
2012-07-26, 02:30 PM
Excellent point! I wonder what catagory Arya might fall into? I know as of the third book she feels guilty for some of her deeds but in the fifth she's rapidly developing into an emotionally numb assassin. Maybe CN?

She is...though she's still holding on to a core desire to get vengeance. I don't know that she's fully chaotic though. She probably was early on, but she seems to be pretty accepting of her place in the temple and their rules.

I think it can safely be said that she is no longer good, even though there are elements of good in her. I'd go with her trending lawful, though. She may not be full on evil yet, but she's had to do some bad stuff, and will likely have to do much worse.

I do think Jamie is definitely on the road to redemption. Definitely an alignment change happening there.

Cersei...neutral evil, I'd say.

Parra
2012-07-26, 02:33 PM
Littlefinger: Chaotic Evil


Really? I would have pegged him as Neutral Evil. He works with the laws when it suits his purposes and sneakly ignores them when they dont.

Dienekes
2012-07-26, 02:41 PM
Really? I would have pegged him as Neutral Evil. He works with the laws when it suits his purposes and sneakly ignores them when they dont.

And is more than wiling to completely disregard them or destroy them when it benefits him in even the slightest.

This is the guy who poisoned Jon Arryn for no reason other than to stir things up, kills indiscriminately, and as a whole just does not seem to give a **** about anyone except himself and his creepy crush on Sansa. He has used the laws to his advantage on more than one occasion, but he has no respect for them or anything really. He's just an incredibly intelligent manipulator who strives on creating chaos for everyone so he can exploit it. So yeah, I think he's chaotic, just not so stupid he wont exploit laws when it benefits him.

Cikomyr
2012-07-26, 02:45 PM
Do you really think so? I would be SHOCKED! I think he's slowly going to recover but knowing Martin anythings possible!

I can more easily see Melisandre bringing him back as a Fire zombie rather than life as a Warg.

However, it is possible that part of John Snow's self would live inside Ghost, which possibly could save his soul, to have it restored to the body one way or another.

But that would be kind of a Star Trek III plot rip-off.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-26, 03:01 PM
I can more easily see Melisandre bringing him back as a Fire zombie rather than life as a Warg.

However, it is possible that part of John Snow's self would live inside Ghost, which possibly could save his soul, to have it restored to the body one way or another.

But that would be kind of a Star Trek III plot rip-off.

There's been rather a lot of setup for the warg second life thing. It almost has to be used by someone, at some point. Bran's got the greenseer thing going on, and that's almost certainly going to pay out in a different way.

Sansa can't be a warg because the wolf is gone.

Arya has the assassin thing dominating her life.

Jon is the only one that doesn't have some big thing waiting in the wings for his char in the future. Therefore, he almost has to be the warg.

Cikomyr
2012-07-26, 03:47 PM
There's been rather a lot of setup for the warg second life thing. It almost has to be used by someone, at some point. Bran's got the greenseer thing going on, and that's almost certainly going to pay out in a different way.

Sansa can't be a warg because the wolf is gone.

Arya has the assassin thing dominating her life.

Jon is the only one that doesn't have some big thing waiting in the wings for his char in the future. Therefore, he almost has to be the warg.

You completely skipped over another skinchanger.

Grey Wind is potentially still alive. Maybe Robb has a Second Life in him.

Ghost himself said "Four remained... And one the white wolf could no longer sense"

Who is that one? I'd guess Grey Wind, who has been taken over by Robb, maybe?

Dienekes
2012-07-26, 03:54 PM
Grey Wind was killed and beheaded at the Twins and had its head sewn onto Robb's corpse.

Parra
2012-07-26, 04:07 PM
And is more than wiling to completely disregard them or destroy them when it benefits him in even the slightest.

This is the guy who poisoned Jon Arryn for no reason other than to stir things up, kills indiscriminately, and as a whole just does not seem to give a **** about anyone except himself and his creepy crush on Sansa. He has used the laws to his advantage on more than one occasion, but he has no respect for them or anything really. He's just an incredibly intelligent manipulator who strives on creating chaos for everyone so he can exploit it. So yeah, I think he's chaotic, just not so stupid he wont exploit laws when it benefits him.

see I never saw what he did (at least in the books) as just for the evul lulz and that everything done was towards whatever his ultimate end-goal is (which has yet to be revealed)
But he is definitly working towards a grand plan. Every scheme or death he has caused has been a step in furthering that plan.
Yes, sometimes thats taking advantage of some chaos, or turning his detractors worlds upside down, but I would hardly go so far as to call him Chaotic. He is far to orderly.

Cikomyr
2012-07-26, 04:09 PM
Grey Wind was killed and beheaded at the Twins and had its head sewn onto Robb's corpse.

That's what the Frey and Bolton reported.

Someone in book 4 told the tale of how he was shot helping Grey Wind escape. Forgot that?

Dienekes
2012-07-26, 04:14 PM
That's what the Frey and Bolton reported.

Someone in book 4 told the tale of how he was shot helping Grey Wind escape. Forgot that?

Yes, I did. Any chance for a rough chapter where it happens?


see I never saw what he did (at least in the books) as just for the evul lulz and that everything done was towards whatever his ultimate end-goal is (which has yet to be revealed)
But he is definitly working towards a grand plan. Every scheme or death he has caused has been a step in furthering that plan.
Yes, sometimes thats taking advantage of some chaos, or turning his detractors worlds upside down, but I would hardly go so far as to call him Chaotic. He is far to orderly.

From what I've seen his goal has been power. He is the master of using chaos to bring himself power. As far as we can see, there was no reason for his murder of Jon, but from that chaos he has become a great lord twice over. He helps no one but himself and seems to have no endgame in sight except for the next great benefit he can get his hands on. If you want someone who does seem to have a definitive end goal I'd point to Varys, LF is a different beast.

Also, there are many words I would describe LF with, but orderly is not one of them. He seems to me to be someone who is a master of taking whatever comes at him. His murder of Lysa Arryn being the big one in my mind. She was making a problem, so he removed it. The lords of Arryn were going to cause problems so he hired Corbray.

Sorry, I just don't see anything he's done that points to a methodical nature, or even real plans. Now maybe he has them and he's just a master of hiding them. But again, since we already have Varys for that, I doubt it's going to characterize him as well.

Cikomyr
2012-07-26, 05:25 PM
Yes, I did. Any chance for a rough chapter where it happens?

It was easy to miss, I admit.

I believed it was retold during one of Jaime's chapter in a Feast of Crows. Raynald Westerling was the one who freed, or at least try to free, Grey Wind.

Raynald's body was never found.

edit: Chapter 44

Lord Tyger
2012-07-26, 09:36 PM
Do you really think so? I would be SHOCKED! I think he's slowly going to recover but knowing Martin anythings possible!

Yeah. I mean, we get the whole intro chapter setting up the possibility that it's possible to survive in an animal after your death, we know that Jon can slip into Ghost's skin, and then Jon gets jumped while Ghost isn't there? I honestly never considered that that wasn't where it was going.

Ramza00
2012-07-26, 10:28 PM
Supposing that the Heads had to be Targaryens, it would, wouldn't it. But so far Aegon hasn't proved himself to be of much value... If Aegon can't prove himself real soon, I don't think he's dragon materiel.

Also I am SO a Connington fanboy.

Spoiler
So was Rhaegar bi, or was Connington's gay for Rhaegar unrequited

Dienekes
2012-07-26, 10:39 PM
Spoiler
So was Rhaegar bi, or was Connington's gay for Rhaegar unrequited

ADWD spoilers because apparently we're doing that now
I think the implication is that it's unrequited.

Also, I am not a Connington fan. The bugger is going to spread the plague across Westeros.

Also Cik, thank you. Will look it up later, can't believe I missed something that theoretically important.

Cikomyr
2012-07-26, 10:45 PM
My pleasure. Although with some research, the topic on whether not Grey Wind did escape is fuzzy.

However, I do believe in my "Jon the R'hllor Zombie" theory. Ghost as a Warg is also interesting, and I don't see how both can't be achieved. Jon's very soul could effectively be split in two.

I still wonder which of the wolf is the one that Ghost "can no longer hear". He doesn't automatically assumes he's dead, tho.

Parra
2012-07-27, 02:22 AM
From what I've seen his goal has been power. He is the master of using chaos to bring himself power. As far as we can see, there was no reason for his murder of Jon, but from that chaos he has become a great lord twice over. He helps no one but himself and seems to have no endgame in sight except for the next great benefit he can get his hands on. If you want someone who does seem to have a definitive end goal I'd point to Varys, LF is a different beast.

Also, there are many words I would describe LF with, but orderly is not one of them. He seems to me to be someone who is a master of taking whatever comes at him. His murder of Lysa Arryn being the big one in my mind. She was making a problem, so he removed it. The lords of Arryn were going to cause problems so he hired Corbray.

Sorry, I just don't see anything he's done that points to a methodical nature, or even real plans. Now maybe he has them and he's just a master of hiding them. But again, since we already have Varys for that, I doubt it's going to characterize him as well.

Just so we are on the same page when defining the difference between NE & CE:
According to phb3.5 NE is described as "A Neutral Evil villan does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport or convenience."
v's the CE description "A Chaotic Evil person does what ever his greed, hatred and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent and unpredictable."

To me, using those descriptions, Littlefinger is far more NE than CE

Killer Angel
2012-07-27, 02:41 AM
I generally agree, though I'd argue that after

he kills his father and Shae

he drifts significantly towards CN, at the minimum.

Good point... after all, actions can ridefine alignment (paladins fall, yadda yadda).
So yeah, probably a CG, shifting toward CN.



I think it was pretty clearly set up for Jon to live on as a Warg.

So: clearly chaotic evil, by D&D standards... :smalltongue:




Jaime: currently trying to be lawful good. Whether you think he has actually redeemed himself from chaotic evil is up to you (for me, no, no he has not)


Roy's Deva would tell that at least he's trying... :smallwink:
(just pointing out that the mere fact that I almost root for him, after its "setup" in the first book, tells a lot about it. The road to Tipperary is still veeeeery long, though).




Varys: could be anywhere from chaotic neutral to lawful evil, he's a complicated fellow


My vote goes to LE.

Xondoure
2012-07-27, 04:40 AM
My pleasure. Although with some research, the topic on whether not Grey Wind did escape is fuzzy.

However, I do believe in my "Jon the R'hllor Zombie" theory. Ghost as a Warg is also interesting, and I don't see how both can't be achieved. Jon's very soul could effectively be split in two.

I still wonder which of the wolf is the one that Ghost "can no longer hear". He doesn't automatically assumes he's dead, tho.

I see it as two halves to the perfect resurrection. Warging preserves the soul at least for a time, and the Kiss of R'hllor restores the body. Together Jon's mind might well rest within the wolf's until the kiss drags him back into his own, but without the apparent damage to the mind suffered from true death and rebirth.

It's possible the result will leave John with a burning body much like that one Greyjoy's hand whose name I can't remember. Which would be very fitting for one chosen to take down the others.

Killer Angel
2012-07-27, 05:03 AM
I see it as two halves to the perfect resurrection. Warging preserves the soul at least for a time, and the Kiss of R'hllor restores the body. Together Jon's mind might well rest within the wolf's until the kiss drags him back into his own, but without the apparent damage to the mind suffered from true death and rebirth.

It's possible the result will leave John with a burning body much like that one Greyjoy's hand whose name I can't remember. Which would be very fitting for one chosen to take down the others.

The true Azor Ahai reborn?
It would be fun to see the enormous change of prospect for Melisandre...

Parra
2012-07-27, 05:22 AM
Varys: could be anywhere from chaotic neutral to lawful evil, he's a complicated fellow

My vote goes to LE.

I would agree. Though a case could be made for him to also be NE, with Lawful leanings.

INDYSTAR188
2012-07-27, 06:01 AM
ADWD spoilers because apparently we're doing that now
I think the implication is that it's unrequited.

Also, I am not a Connington fan. The bugger is going to spread the plague across Westeros.

Also Cik, thank you. Will look it up later, can't believe I missed something that theoretically important.

Lets NOT spoiler book references and whatnot. I tried to be clear in the OP that if you haven't read the books this thread might ruin your day.

Cikomyr
2012-07-27, 07:14 AM
I see it as two halves to the perfect resurrection. Warging preserves the soul at least for a time, and the Kiss of R'hllor restores the body. Together Jon's mind might well rest within the wolf's until the kiss drags him back into his own, but without the apparent damage to the mind suffered from true death and rebirth.

It's possible the result will leave John with a burning body much like that one Greyjoy's hand whose name I can't remember. Which would be very fitting for one chosen to take down the others.

Or you could see the Warg and the Fireborn to be two halves of the same soul. Firefight like the lightning Lord or Stoneheary only remember their duty, their task to carry out, forgetting to live, eat, love.

A Warg remembers only to live. He loses himself in the moment, forgetting what he has to do to just live the simple life of the animal.


The true Azor Ahai reborn?
It would be fun to see the enormous change of prospect for Melisandre...

It would be funnier to see Stannis' reaction when Melisandre announces she turncloak. And the Queen's men.

LordRahl6
2012-07-27, 09:04 AM
My pleasure. Although with some research, the topic on whether not Grey Wind did escape is fuzzy.

However, I do believe in my "Jon the R'hllor Zombie" theory. Ghost as a Warg is also interesting, and I don't see how both can't be achieved. Jon's very soul could effectively be split in two.

I still wonder which of the wolf is the one that Ghost "can no longer hear". He doesn't automatically assumes he's dead, tho.

There is plenty of room on both points, as Melissandre is on the Wall. Jon could be raised. As for Wargs, they do have a "second life" as it were in one of their beasts, but some knowledge of the process may be needed to do it. Finally, as I understand it death (or the Wall's destruction) breaks the ties of the Sworn(Black) Brothers.

On a side note given the abilities of the wall, the one Ghost "can no longer here is probably Summer.:smallwink:

Cikomyr
2012-07-27, 09:56 AM
I did considered it, the Wall blocking psychic communication.

By the way, who would bet that the Horn John found near the Fist of the First Men is the Horn of Winter, now safe in Oldtow ?

Edit: I just realized why I don't believe the Wall blocks psychic communication. The Greenseer did send dreams to Bran while he was in Winterfell, was he not?

INDYSTAR188
2012-07-27, 10:46 AM
So I'm rereading Storm of Swords and at one point Tyrion offers to take the Eyrie by "force and blood" if the Lords will only give him the men to do so. Does this bloody desire for revenge show a further shift in his alignment? As to Jon Snow, I was thinking some of the decisions he makes late in the series seem to indicate he's less 'good' and more 'neutral'.

Tyndmyr
2012-07-27, 11:18 AM
So I'm rereading Storm of Swords and at one point Tyrion offers to take the Eyrie by "force and blood" if the Lords will only give him the men to do so. Does this bloody desire for revenge show a further shift in his alignment? As to Jon Snow, I was thinking some of the decisions he makes late in the series seem to indicate he's less 'good' and more 'neutral'.

He is growing somewhat disillusioned as the series continues, and is definitely showing a willingness to do more evil things. Lots and lots more blood will likely be on his hands by the end.

Zejety
2012-07-27, 05:27 PM
As to Jon Snow, I was thinking some of the decisions he makes late in the series seem to indicate he's less 'good' and more 'neutral'.
Those later actions feel more chaotic than evil to me. His worst offenses are breaking with the Watch's customs and laws. And he does that to save the lives of potential foes.

JustSomeGuy
2012-07-28, 04:00 AM
Those later actions feel more chaotic than evil to me. His worst offenses are breaking with the Watch's customs and laws. And he does that to save the lives of potential foes.

Which he did so they didn't become enemies (others), so you could easily argue he did it in the spirit of the watch if not the laws/customs.

And as far as Varys, everything he did was (i think) to help restore Targaryn rule - his original king, so could be seen as more righteous than chaotic b*****d everyone marks him down as.

McStabbington
2012-07-28, 02:24 PM
I still peg Arya as CG. There's nothing in being good that prevents you from also taking life, and while her body count has been increasing rapidly, it's usually in defense of self or something that she is supposed to value anyway.

The closest she comes to out and out murders are the bard from the Night's Watch she knifes and the moneylender. But the bard was a deserter from the Night's Watch, and when asked about who killed him, she specifically said "Arya of House Stark." She's upholding the same law the Starks always have by killing a traitor; that makes her no more evil than executing the Night's Watch deserter at the beginning of the series makes Eddard. And as for the moneylender, while I'm not going to say it wasn't murder in some sense, it was about as subtle and as hands-off as murders get. She picked his pocket and replaced one gold coin with a coin that represents a death warrant, which, when the man saw it, promptly caused him to die of a heart attack.

I won't deny there's a troubling "ends-justify-the-means" style reasoning going on, and that if left unabated it might cause her to slide into CN or CE, but right now? Having to survive in a war zone doesn't automatically make you evil.

Cikomyr
2012-07-29, 12:17 AM
And as for the moneylender, while I'm not going to say it wasn't murder in some sense, it was about as subtle and as hands-off as murders get. She picked his pocket and replaced one gold coin with a coin that represents a death warrant, which, when the man saw it, promptly caused him to die of a heart attack.

You have clearly misread that part. The Iron Coin isn't something the Faceless send their marks.

Arya replaced a random gold coin by a poisoned one. When the insurance salesman (the guy WAS NOT a moneylender, he was a Lloyd placeholder) bit the piece of gold to verify its purity, he got poisoned and died.

Arya clearly assassinated the guy.

Fun fact: This is probably also how the Alchemist killed Pate in Oldtown. Pate bit the gold coin he received, and died shortly thereafter.

JustSomeGuy
2012-07-29, 04:15 AM
I thought she used poison too and gave it no more thought, but i could easily be wrong.

Zejety
2012-08-01, 01:10 PM
To get this thread rolling again:
Where do you see Daenerys on the alignment chart?

Tyndmyr
2012-08-01, 02:49 PM
Chaotic Good.

She tries to help people, and is out for others, not herself. However, she's pretty willing to bend traditions and laws to get there.

Dienekes
2012-08-01, 02:57 PM
Chaotic Good.

She tries to help people, and is out for others, not herself. However, she's pretty willing to bend traditions and laws to get there.

I'm not sure. She sometimes is out for others, but a lot of her motivation is: I want to take back my birthright even if it messes up just about everything around me.

I can't get a good handle where to place her on the chart really. I mean, I can see the argument for CG, I just think it represents a small part of her full character.

McStabbington
2012-08-02, 01:33 PM
She starts as Neutral Good, although like most of the characters of the series, she's constantly tempted towards neutrality. It's clear that she's not beholden to the law and tradition, but it's also clear that she doesn't go out of her way to break norms and will often follow them if she thinks they can be beneficial, even if she personally hates them.

Zejety
2012-08-02, 01:47 PM
But she does certainly value freedom a lot, seeing how she frees slaves even against (some of) their will.

Tyndmyr
2012-08-02, 01:55 PM
I'm not sure. She sometimes is out for others, but a lot of her motivation is: I want to take back my birthright even if it messes up just about everything around me.

I can't get a good handle where to place her on the chart really. I mean, I can see the argument for CG, I just think it represents a small part of her full character.

Well, the thing is, she's young. She's not immensely wise, yet. She wants her birthright back, but every time someone offers her a route to it that means compromising what she thinks is right, she passes on it. That's the hallmark of a good char.

She's not great at being good, but she certainly tries to be.

McStabbington
2012-08-02, 04:58 PM
But she does certainly value freedom a lot, seeing how she frees slaves even against (some of) their will.

Without breaking forum rules, there's nothing about valuing freedom in itself that necessarily makes you chaotic. If you believe that a person is only free when he is at his least inhibited by outside constraints, he might well support a set of laws that vigorously suppress previous social norms whereby orcs were considered a de facto slave race that did all of a society's heavy labor and made men second-class citizens who were unable to leave the house without female escort, on the grounds that the laws constrain citizens far less than the prior norms did. That person would probably consider freedom his highest value. He would also definitely fall into the Lawful Good category.

Bringing it back to Daenerys, Dany clearly has a different view of the law and social norms than someone like Barristan Selmy, who is probably one of three characters who is clearly Lawful Good. Unlike Selmy, Dany clearly seems to take the social norms around her with a grain of salt, and she doesn't hesitate to break the rules if upholding the rules would mean hurting someone. At the same time, she's also not like one of the more clearly chaotic characters like Arya. I can't imagine Arya ever putting on a tokar and wearing a stupid hat, no matter how much easier it would make ruling Astapor. Heck, I can't see Arya even seeing the need to put something in place after smashing Astapor in the first place. But Dany does both because even if she doesn't hold rules and laws as inviolate, she does see the need for them. Hence, Neutral Good.

Zejety
2012-08-02, 07:08 PM
Reading the actual descriptions of CG and NG, I still lean towards CG, although she's definitely not at the end of the spectrum.

A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but hes kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.

Chaotic good is the best alignment you can be because it combines a good heart with a free spirit.
On the other hand, one could quote the NG text and come to the same conclusion...

So here are some more points in favor of CG:
selling Illyrio's ships and goods
the deal in Astapor

INDYSTAR188
2012-08-02, 11:23 PM
Reading the actual descriptions of CG and NG, I still lean towards CG, although she's definitely not at the end of the spectrum.

On the other hand, one could quote the NG text and come to the same conclusion...

So here are some more points in favor of CG:
selling Illyrio's ships and goods
the deal in Astapor


Does buying slaves in Astapor (which goes against her moral compass) count as a tick against the good alignment?

Jorah "As Your Grace commands. I shall tell Captain Groleo to make ready to sail on the evening tide, for some sty less vile."

Dany "No, I want to sail now, not on the tide, I want to sail far and fast and never look back. But I can't, can I? There are eight thousand brick eunuchs for sale, and I must find some way to buy them."

Zejety
2012-08-03, 04:29 AM
I actually wanted to refer to how she betrayed the slavers. Yes, in the literal sense she obeyed their contract but...

As for her buying slaves in general. I am not sure how that pinged back then but she definitely is strongly opposed to slavery at the end of ADwD. It probably started when she freed her Unsullied.

mangosta71
2012-08-03, 10:26 AM
I was gonna ask why people were spoilering things in a discussion that has MAJOR SPOILERS in the title...

Anyway, Dani seems closer to LG than CG to me. Buying the Unsullied prior to setting them free is a very lawful act (the chaotic thing to do would have been attempting to free them before making the purchase). Overall, I'd say NG with LG leanings.

The wolf that Ghost can no longer hear is Grey Wind. Unless we have unreliable narrator syndrome, the Brotherhood Without Banners found Grey Wind's head sewn onto Robb's corpse, so it's safe to say that the attempt to free the wolf failed. Besides, Ghost has been north of the Wall before, and it never seemed to impact his ability to sense his brothers and sisters. At this point in the story, Grey Wind and Lady are dead, Ghost is somewhere near the Wall, Summer is north of the Wall with Bran, Shaggydog is wherever Rickon and Osha are, and Nymeria is leading a pack in the Riverlands.

Jaime is also almost certainly marching to his death. We saw Brienne die, so their upcoming rendezvous means Catelyn resurrected her and is most likely using her to exact vengeance. Maybe Jaime will also be resurrected for use against Cersei in a similar manner.

Dienekes
2012-08-03, 06:12 PM
Jaime is also almost certainly marching to his death. We saw Brienne die, so their upcoming rendezvous means Catelyn resurrected her and is most likely using her to exact vengeance. Maybe Jaime will also be resurrected for use against Cersei in a similar manner.

Ehh, I think the implication is that Brienne didn't die. The one word she yelled was "Sword" meaning she agreed with Cat to go kill Jaime to save the mercenary whose name I can't remember and Podrick Motherf***king Payne.

KnightOfV
2012-08-04, 01:56 AM
I've taken Dany's actions in DwD as the reason Chaotic Good people should not rule cities. She constantly places the life of the individual over the good of order and law, such as her fixation with freeing slaves despite that she KNOWS it will destabilize her city to the point of anarchy. She seems more trapped into following laws and customs than going with them willingly. The demands of rulership crushing her spirit are kind of the theme in DwD. Also, she refuses to use her dragons to keep order because she worries they will harm 'her people', and seems to mourn every innocent death her actions cause. I peg her as a solid Chaotic Good

Chaotic actions:
*Values personal freedom (too many examples to count)
*keeps an open mind to different customs but is beholden to no particular way of doing things. (raised following Westeros ways, but adapted to Dothraki law to survive with Drogo, but later adapts to various cultures to curry favor and rule. Never argues that HER culture is best)
*willing to challenge tradition, even burning cities to the ground if it goes against what she feels is right (claiming the Dothraki slaves for herself, trying to free slaves across continent creating anarchy.)
*values individuals lives over long term order (her refusal to use her dragons in DwD to keep order in Meeren because she was terrified her dragons would eat a few of her people.

Good actions:
*abhors killing (except in cases of slavers, anyone who harms her dragons, and those who were responsible for her family's "unjust" death/exile)
*takes responsibility for the lives of her people and treats others fairly
*past actions weigh heavily upon her "if I turn back I am lost..."

She does not acknowledge her family's dark history, because she seems unwilling to face it, and truly believes that the people of Westeros are evil. Also i think the thing with 'buying' the Unsullied was rather chaotic, especially since she had no intention of going through with the deal from the start.

INDYSTAR188
2012-08-04, 05:53 PM
She does not acknowledge her family's dark history, because she seems unwilling to face it, and truly believes that the people of Westeros are evil. Also i think the thing with 'buying' the Unsullied was rather chaotic, especially since she had no intention of going through with the deal from the start.

I disagree with your opinion that she believes all people in Westeros are evil. In fact I think that she dreams of setting them free of their leaders. I believe she hates the nobility in Westeros but has faith in the people. I agree with your summation that she is CG. I also agree that CG people make poor leaders/rulers.

Does any one else feel bad for Jaime? I'm rereading Storm of Swords and I just find myself sympathizing with him for whatever reason. Until his captivity at Riverrun I thought he was a pompous jerk who deserved whatever he got... but now I can't help but feel sorry for him.

Dienekes
2012-08-04, 06:56 PM
I disagree with your opinion that she believes all people in Westeros are evil. In fact I think that she dreams of setting them free of their leaders. I believe she hates the nobility in Westeros but has faith in the people. I agree with your summation that she is CG. I also agree that CG people make poor leaders/rulers.

I think by people of Westeros he is referring to folks like Robert and Eddard.


Does any one else feel bad for Jaime? I'm rereading Storm of Swords and I just find myself sympathizing with him for whatever reason. Until his captivity at Riverrun I thought he was a pompous jerk who deserved whatever he got... but now I can't help but feel sorry for him.

No. Dude pushed a child out of a window. There is very little chance I will ever sympathize with him. I'll admit he's trying to reform, but there is almost nothing that can happen to him that I won't feel he deserves.

INDYSTAR188
2012-08-04, 08:37 PM
No. Dude pushed a child out of a window. There is very little chance I will ever sympathize with him. I'll admit he's trying to reform, but there is almost nothing that can happen to him that I won't feel he deserves.

I agree with that, I understand it, and as a father I feel similar. BUT when you get his back story... making Kingsguard at 15... but ONLY to take his fathers heir away from him... forced to watch brutal murders, rapes, and various incorrigible acts (at one point when the Mad King is raping his wife and beater her Jaime ask's the White Bull if they should step in because they're charged with protecting HER too and he replies that they are but not from HIM), manipulated by his sister/lover his whole life.... saves the city of Kings Landing but is really only mocked for how he did it... IDK, I just feel bad for him. It wouldn't surprise me if he ends up being a LG Barriston Selmy type who self sacrifices for the Realms greater good.

JustSomeGuy
2012-08-05, 10:53 AM
I started to feel pretty bad for Theon too; he just tried to live up to his 'birthright', and mostly gave folks a chance so he wouldn't have to hurt/kill them (plus he wasn't used to such a brutal and overbearing leadership style that he was forced into) - all he wanted was to whore and hunt, but it all got so serious for him and not in a good way. He even did a little good towards the end!

Zejety
2012-08-05, 11:27 AM
I started to feel pretty bad for Theon too; he just tried to live up to his 'birthright', and mostly gave folks a chance so he wouldn't have to hurt/kill them (plus he wasn't used to such a brutal and overbearing leadership style that he was forced into) - all he wanted was to whore and hunt, but it all got so serious for him and not in a good way. He even did a little good towards the end!

Yes, I felt similar. Especially after watching HBO's interpretation.
It's not like his crimes can be easily forgiven (or forgiven at all. Child murder is pretty bad.) but I certainly feel bad for him.

Btw: Your take on Theon's alignment throughout the story, especially while he was holding Winterfell.
Could the latter be considered LE? It looked like he was trying hard to "honor" the customs of the Ironborn.

Haarkla
2012-08-05, 11:49 AM
I also am confident stating that Ned Stark is Lawful Good.
Dont be so confident. Ned Stark is Lawful Neutral. He had the opportunity to avoid the war of the 5 kings, which killed thousands and was marked by many atrocities, by not revealing Joffery and Tommerns bastardy. Instead he insisted on revealing a secret which plunged the nation into civil war, no good character would have done that.

stcfg
2012-08-05, 02:00 PM
Dont be so confident. Ned Stark is Lawful Neutral. He had the opportunity to avoid the war of the 5 kings, which killed thousands and was marked by many atrocities, by not revealing Joffery and Tommerns bastardy. Instead he insisted on revealing a secret which plunged the nation into civil war, no good character would have done that.

Keeping their secret would not have stopped the war. The Lannisters and Starks were already fighting. Book Stannis already knew, Renly didn't care about about succession order and the Greyjoys were already planning a rebellion.

The only thing keeping their secret would have done is help an evil queen put her evil illegitimate son on the throne. No good character would have done that either.

Cikomyr
2012-08-05, 04:03 PM
I do believe the word was "Arya". Brienne was the only one despite Sandor Clegane and the leader of te Abbey to know where she last was seen.

She probably was sent to retrieve Jaime so they can search for her across the sea. To respect their oaths.

McStabbington
2012-08-05, 04:40 PM
Dont be so confident. Ned Stark is Lawful Neutral. He had the opportunity to avoid the war of the 5 kings, which killed thousands and was marked by many atrocities, by not revealing Joffery and Tommerns bastardy. Instead he insisted on revealing a secret which plunged the nation into civil war, no good character would have done that.

If there's one alignment with which the sentiment "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall" is associated, it would be Lawful Good, and that was exactly the sentiment he expressed. He didn't want to overthrow Joffrey. He didn't want Stannis as his king. He didn't want to start a civil war. And yet he tried to put Stannis on the throne anyway, because that's what the justice demanded. Joffrey as an unlegitimized bastard had no right to the throne.

If I had to put Theon anywhere, it would be somewhere between Neutral and Lawful Evil; really you could make a case for either one. As a side note, I think part of Theon's problem is that he wasn't respecting the Ironborn culture. Every time he tries to get them to do something, he talks about glory and honor. The Ironborn don't care about duty and honor. They're not knights. They're pirates. They care about women and swag and beer; duty and honor, ironically enough, was something that made him look, sound and feel like a foreign northerner, because that's exactly where he learned it.

To be honest, in some ways I see Theon as Worf's evil opposite: they're both trying to embody the ideals of a culture that they were seperated at young age from and don't really understand. The difference, of course, is that while Worf was honorable to a fault, Theon is a treacherous little scoundrel. They both get kicked around more than they should, though.

Killer Angel
2012-08-06, 04:18 AM
Does any one else feel bad for Jaime? I'm rereading Storm of Swords and I just find myself sympathizing with him for whatever reason. Until his captivity at Riverrun I thought he was a pompous jerk who deserved whatever he got... but now I can't help but feel sorry for him.

Somehow, yes.


No. Dude pushed a child out of a window. There is very little chance I will ever sympathize with him. I'll admit he's trying to reform, but there is almost nothing that can happen to him that I won't feel he deserves.

Martin shows the PoV of various characters.
Cersei was, since the beginning, a wicked, stupid, beach (well, it rhymes with). Through the books, her story and her PoV, my impression on her remained the same. She deserves all the bad I can think of.
Jaime? a very different situation. Many of the bad things he did, were done for solid reason (kingslayer? ohhhh!), he's trying to regain some honor... he's on the road to redemption. It will be long, maybe in the end he'll fail, but at least he's showing something good.

I could say that he deserves almost everything that can happen to him, but actually I'm not hoping for those things to happen.

Xondoure
2012-08-06, 04:43 AM
Jaime has done horrible horrible things and yet is in a position where he might actually do more good for the citizens of Westeros than most of the other characters not on the wall.

Kato
2012-08-06, 08:40 AM
Hahaha... screw the thread topic... So much more interesting things to talk about.


Anyway, Dani seems closer to LG than CG to me. Buying the Unsullied prior to setting them free is a very lawful act (the chaotic thing to do would have been attempting to free them before making the purchase). Overall, I'd say NG with LG leanings.
Nah... I'd put her very clearly in NG, with CG tendencies... what she did in Astapor is nothing a LG character would do, even if it was strictly legal. That's cheating a system, no classic LG move. I still think she would make one of the most decent rulers in the cast if only because she is so well intentioned. She needs some help and a city that's not made of crazy people.


Jaime is also almost certainly marching to his death. We saw Brienne die, so their upcoming rendezvous means Catelyn resurrected her and is most likely using her to exact vengeance. Maybe Jaime will also be resurrected for use against Cersei in a similar manner.
No, I agree with others: I think Brienne's alive and has some new information, perhaps on Sansa by some means and this might lead to a war with the Veil and Littlefinger... but whatever the development, I feel confident she is alive.



No. Dude pushed a child out of a window. There is very little chance I will ever sympathize with him. I'll admit he's trying to reform, but there is almost nothing that can happen to him that I won't feel he deserves.
You know, that's something people really decide for themselves and then they stick to it: Can a person be redeemed/redeem themselves. Yes, that was a major evil act from Jaime but it is about th only thing I can recall from him that's not somewhat justified... and one might even discuss he did it to protect his children and the woman he loved if he thought so fast. I'm not saying it wasn't a terrible thing to do but so much stuff has happened since I feel I can sympathize with him more and more as the story goes on.


I started to feel pretty bad for Theon too; he just tried to live up to his 'birthright', and mostly gave folks a chance so he wouldn't have to hurt/kill them (plus he wasn't used to such a brutal and overbearing leadership style that he was forced into) - all he wanted was to whore and hunt, but it all got so serious for him and not in a good way. He even did a little good towards the end!
Nope... I feel sorry for what happened to Theon but it all happened because he was an idiot after the approval of a man who hardly was a father to him at all and to prove he was a real ironborn or something instead of staying by Rob's side. Idiot move and now he's paying for it. He started to do some useful stuff but...


Cersei was, since the beginning, a wicked, stupid, beach (well, it rhymes with). Through the books, her story and her PoV, my impression on her remained the same. She deserves all the bad I can think of.

I really don't like Cersei but she does have going for her that she really loves her kids. Oh, she fails at parenting, BADLY but she wants the best for her kids. That is worth... something. Opposed to some other characters like Joffrey, Littlefinger, Tywin... and a bunch of others.

JustSomeGuy
2012-08-06, 01:17 PM
I read Cersei as wanting the best for herself, using her kids to achieve that. Yes she loves them and wants them to succeed, but in a Cersei vs. child x situation, i can't see her chosing the kid.

INDYSTAR188
2012-08-07, 08:59 AM
Any opinions on Thoros and Lord Beric Dondarrion? I think they're both GOOD but I wouldn't swear to that. I mean they both use the gold/resources they have to help the small folk but at the same time they allow men at arms to be tried for crimes their armies committed - an example is the Bloody Mummers they caught at the Sept and hanged based on things *they* had done. They also laid a lot of Lannister crimes at the feet of the Hound (not that he doesn't deserve it).

On another interesting note, does anyone think there is a connection between Catelyn, Beric, Thoros, and Melisandre? All of them are tools of the Lord of Light. Is it possible that the LoL want's them to defeat Stannis's foes so that he can come into his Kingdom and prepare to fight the Dark One? Obviously the Red Priests have what amounts to the most supernatural/magical/holy power in the books, I wonder if they are leading towards the same goal (maybe unintended) or not.

Xondoure
2012-08-07, 10:30 AM
Well first, I'd argue it's been abundantly clear from the beginning that Stannis is not the lord of light. The prophecy applies to at least two other characters much more than him, and my money's on both of them plus another fitting the three heads of the dragon theme. Daenarys, who literally restored magic to the world, was born amidst salt and stone, blah blah blah. And Jon Snow, who's death as has been mentioned fits the blasted thing to a T provided he return. What's more all of his signs have either been false or rigged (such as his sword which glows but does not burn.) And Mel's prophecies have decided to show Jon's face when asked for Azhor Azhai reborn. All this together leads me to believe Melisandre has been deluding herself along with everyone following her. Poor Stannis.

Now I'm not convinced the Lord of Light himself is the one true god (for one, there's Bran. :smalltongue:) And the fact that all of his disciples seem to mostly be on a power trip with wildly different goals. Myself I think the burning zombies are probably just as bad as the freezing zombies in their own way. And that the stone zombies (grayscale) might well kill everyone before the drowned ones can (Greyjoys.)

Kato
2012-08-07, 11:31 AM
Zombies, what zombies? I already forgot...

Hm... I'm really not sure about anything concerning the Lord of Light... except that Stannis is not the messiah but still a pretty decent chap, all things considered.

I guess we will at some point know who the Dark One and the LoL really are... or clearly enough to know who is good and who is bad... Or both, whatever.

Something I'd argue against is the Priests being the most powerful magic users. Arya's new friends seem to have their own tricks and there was the guy at the beginning of Book Four (iirc) who seemed to be no priests but apparently had magic powers he could control much better than any priest we know of.

Dienekes
2012-08-07, 11:47 AM
A few points

The Faceless Men are priests of the God of Death (all of them), which are Arya's friends and the guy in the beginning of Book 4 is heavily implied to be Jaqen H'ghar another Faceless Man.

That said, the Alchemists were implied to be magical though limited, and they showed no signs of religiousness, and one of the more impressive magic users were the Warlocks of Qarth, which I don't remember if we got any information on their religious affiliation or not.

JustSomeGuy
2012-08-07, 01:49 PM
I didn't read Catelyn's ressurection as anything to do with the Lord of Light; Berric gave her a kiss of life, lost his power and Cat gained it. I'm not even sure it was intentional (maybe just attempting a heroic save), but either way it had nowt to do with LoL.

Tyndmyr
2012-08-07, 02:24 PM
I didn't read Catelyn's ressurection as anything to do with the Lord of Light; Berric gave her a kiss of life, lost his power and Cat gained it. I'm not even sure it was intentional (maybe just attempting a heroic save), but either way it had nowt to do with LoL.

I'm certain it was intentional. He was growing very tired of the "being resurrected" bit.

Selrahc
2012-08-07, 04:19 PM
I'm certain it was intentional. He was growing very tired of the "being resurrected" bit.

Beric Dondarrion mentioned that his quest would be at an end when he accomplished his original task. Bringing the Mountain to justice. The Mountain died.

Killer Angel
2012-08-08, 02:43 AM
The Mountain died.

...even if he still walks. :smalltongue:

INDYSTAR188
2012-08-08, 06:24 AM
I didn't read Catelyn's ressurection as anything to do with the Lord of Light; Berric gave her a kiss of life, lost his power and Cat gained it. I'm not even sure it was intentional (maybe just attempting a heroic save), but either way it had nowt to do with LoL.

I have to disagree with you based on what Thoros said when Arya was scared of Beric... "(Paraphrasing) I do not control who gets the kiss and was just as surprised it worked. The LoL only gives the gift to those who still have a purpose to fulfill for him."

Now if Thoros can't control who gets it, then I doubt Beric could either (give it to whomever he wanted to raise up). That leads me to believe that Cat is inadvertently doing something the LoL want's her to. As for Jon... I had read it that Stannis was either 1) going through the hardest trials to assuming heroship ever or 2) he just isn't Azor Ahai and he'll have to deal w/it because it's actually Jon. I'm not entirely convinced Jon's dead, he was stabbed 5 or 6 times and while that certainly could kill someone, I just had a feeling that he's gonna make it.

mangosta71
2012-08-08, 09:23 AM
...even if he still walks. :smalltongue:
Only 2 people (aside from the audience) know that. Of course, I'm a little fuzzy on the exact chronology of events - did Beric raise Catelyn before or after Gregor bought it? Because it was strongly implied that she had been up for a while before we saw her - it had only been a couple days since her death, which means during the time of book 3. I was thinking that the poison didn't finish Little Greg until some time during book 4. With both events occurring offscreen, it's hard to tell which happened first.

Elhann
2012-08-08, 01:18 PM
Now if Thoros can't control who gets it, then I doubt Beric could either (give it to whomever he wanted to raise up). That leads me to believe that Cat is inadvertently doing something the LoL want's her to.
Well, seeing that all that UnCat has done is hanging every person that might have the smallest relation with the Red Wedding... I think those Freys must be really unpopular, if even the good Ro'LoL wants the late Lady Stark going noose-happy on them. Can you blame him for hating the Freys, though?

So, R'llhor accepts Thoros of Myr (who is good-ish), the Guy with Victarion whose name I cannot remember (who is not that good, with the human sacrifices and all) and Melisandre (who is... arguable) as his clerics. Which is his alignment? :smalltongue:

Cikomyr
2012-08-08, 09:44 PM
Well, seeing that all that UnCat has done is hanging every person that might have the smallest relation with the Red Wedding... I think those Freys must be really unpopular, if even the good Ro'LoL wants the late Lady Stark going noose-happy on them. Can you blame him for hating the Freys, though?

So, R'llhor accepts Thoros of Myr (who is good-ish), the Guy with Victarion whose name I cannot remember (who is not that good, with the human sacrifices and all) and Melisandre (who is... arguable) as his clerics. Which is his alignment? :smalltongue:

Lawful Badass

Logic
2012-08-08, 10:16 PM
To me, it is pretty obvious that the following is possible:
Melisandre is a more powerful Red Priestess than Thoros of Myr is, so it is entirely likely that if Jon Snow does not survive his stabbing attack, good ol' Mel will not only be able to bring him back, will do so because she sees his fate is not yet done. Most fans are saying that he is going to come back in the body of Ghost, I think he's coming back in his own body.

INDYSTAR188
2012-08-08, 10:25 PM
To me, it is pretty obvious that the following is possible:
Melisandre is a more powerful Red Priestess than Thoros of Myr is, so it is entirely likely that if Jon Snow does not survive his stabbing attack, good ol' Mel will not only be able to bring him back, will do so because she sees his fate is not yet done. Most fans are saying that he is going to come back in the body of Ghost, I think he's coming back in his own body.

I do too. I'm not entirely sure he's dead but if thats the case then I agree thats how I'd imagine it's going down.

Kato
2012-08-09, 04:11 AM
Ditto. I mean, sure,. maybe Martins will surprise me but I'm rather confident he's not done with him.



I'm not sure about the topic with the guy in Oldtown... the Many faced God has been shown to grant quite a few abilities but making rocks float? It's been a while since I read it, though.
My guesses have always been on a real wizard even though we've never seen one of them yet.

JustSomeGuy
2012-08-09, 05:16 AM
Why is Brienne in the books? So far, i have only read her as only relevent to Jaime's renewal, and she got far too much time for just that. I think she's going to become more central to the plot, as is ice/oathkeeper (to be fair i only think this because the sword is on the cover of the reissued first book, as is ned, the throne and - oddly - a crow). I sense shoddy and half-measured clues afoot!

Elhann
2012-08-09, 05:33 AM
In CoK, to show Renly's charisma, and to give Catelyn someone to speak to.

In SoS, to give Jaime depth, and the start of his atonement

In FfC, to show that when the mighty play the game of thrones, the smallfolk are the ones who suffer most. Other reasons may be to make readers speculate with that monk who maybe is or maybe is not the Hound, showing that UnCat means serious business with anyone that wears red because she thinks they're pro-Lannister, and having cool fighting scenes will be good for the TV series if they reach that point.

She has about 10 chapters as a POV character, which may be a little too much, especially if you consider they are in aFfC, which is a little slow-paced compared with the rollercoaster that was SoS, but with her appearance in aDwD, I don't really think she will have much more to do with the plot, unless UnCat spares her and Jaime. And if she does, she can go bak to be background in Jaime's chapters:
"He is a maimed knight whom everybody despises. She is not cut to be a housewife and prefers to do the cutting herself. Together, they fight crime! (or something!)"

JustSomeGuy
2012-08-09, 05:41 AM
He lost a hand and turned down the position of king's hand, and now she's sworn to give him a hand!

Also, where's Howland Reed - he should do something goddammit!

mangosta71
2012-08-09, 09:24 AM
I thought it was obvious that Jaime was falling for her. GRRM had to show quite a bit of who and what she is to justify that, based on his initial physical repulsion. Can't have one of the most important players falling in love with someone that's not fleshed out, after all. That was the biggest problem with Robb's romance with the-girl-who-wasn't-important-enough-to-remember - it was terribly unsatisfying because we never learned anything about her.

I find it rather curious that nobody has noticed that Sansa disappeared from King's Landing at the same time that Littlefinger left. Varys in particular is the type that would realize that, put it together with LF's obsession with Cat, and come to the right conclusion. Though, frankly, if GRRM keeps up his one dead Stark per book pattern, I'm hoping that the next one is Sansa (which, of course, means that that empty-headed twit is going to outlive every other character in the series).

Selrahc
2012-08-09, 09:39 AM
I find it rather curious that nobody has noticed that Sansa disappeared from King's Landing at the same time that Littlefinger left.

She didn't. Littlefinger left as an envoy to the vale at least several weeks beforehand.

McStabbington
2012-08-09, 04:20 PM
Brienne is also part of GRRM's running deconstruction and reconstruction of the Knight in Shining Armor trope. Brienne and Ser Barristan are the two characters who best exemplify the ideal of the Knight in Shining Armor: they are courteous, chivalrous, defend the weak, wear lots of armor and ride a horse, uphold a code of conduct even (perhaps especially) when it gets tough, and they are very, very skilled with the knight's weapon of choice in the sword.

Despite that similarity, Ser Barristan is a legend while everyone thinks Brienne is an oathbreaking freak. It's a pretty powerful reminder about just how much gender restricts a person's possibilities when, by any objective standard, you can be as good, as skilled and as decent as the most honorable man in the Seven Kingdoms, and yet the only person who gives you the time of day for it is nicknamed Kingslayer. Because at the end of the day, all you are is an ugly freakish woman.

Killer Angel
2012-08-10, 01:57 AM
Brienne is also part of GRRM's running deconstruction and reconstruction of the Knight in Shining Armor trope. Brienne and Ser Barristan are the two characters who best exemplify the ideal of the Knight in Shining Armor: they are courteous, chivalrous, defend the weak, wear lots of armor and ride a horse, uphold a code of conduct even (perhaps especially) when it gets tough, and they are very, very skilled with the knight's weapon of choice in the sword.

Despite that similarity, Ser Barristan is a legend while everyone thinks Brienne is an oathbreaking freak. It's a pretty powerful reminder about just how much gender restricts a person's possibilities when, by any objective standard, you can be as good, as skilled and as decent as the most honorable man in the Seven Kingdoms, and yet the only person who gives you the time of day for it is nicknamed Kingslayer. Because at the end of the day, all you are is an ugly freakish woman.

Good analysis.
So, her alignment is Lawful Disappointed Good?

JustSomeGuy
2012-08-10, 04:49 AM
Yeah, probably. George seems pretty happy to rely on other tropes though, such as the 'boisterous bruiser' (although medieval fantasy is waay more about shining knights, so that one is more pertinent i'd agree).

Related to knights: most 'name family' characters aren't sers, although their cousins most often are.Why would this be, are they 'above' it all (such as royalty, who are given other titles), or is there another reason... the only one off the top of my head is Ser Kingslayer, but this is his kingsguard title is it not?

Selrahc
2012-08-10, 06:59 AM
A Lord title is superior to a knightly one, so Lords and Lordlings don't need a knighthood. Most of the characters in the north don't worship the Seven so can't become Sers. Other characters just clearly aren't cut out for Knight-hood, since it is a role based primarily around being a front line soldier.

Logic
2012-08-10, 07:08 AM
A Lord title is superior to a knightly one, so Lords and Lordlings don't need a knighthood. Most of the characters in the north don't worship the Seven so can't become Sers. Other characters just clearly aren't cut out for Knight-hood, since it is a role based primarily around being a front line soldier.

I guess I never picked up that a Knight had to be anointed by the Faith of the Seven. And Lord (normally) applies only to the head of a noble house, with some exceptions for positions held for the King.

Examples: Tyrion is not Lord Tyrion (until he is acting Hand of the King) and then he is once again Lord Tyrion when Tywin dies.

Lord Varys is a Lord because of his station on the small council as master of Whispers, I presume.

But Edmure Tully is specifically not called "Lord Tully" until his father Hoster passes away.

Kato
2012-08-10, 07:33 AM
Despite that similarity, Ser Barristan is a legend while everyone thinks Brienne is an oathbreaking freak. It's a pretty powerful reminder about just how much gender restricts a person's possibilities when, by any objective standard, you can be as good, as skilled and as decent as the most honorable man in the Seven Kingdoms, and yet the only person who gives you the time of day for it is nicknamed Kingslayer. Because at the end of the day, all you are is an ugly freakish woman.

Not that I'd argue too much with this Brienne was in a pretty bad situation what with Renyl dying there and then... I guess if she had had the respect Selmy had people would have believed in her innocence but apart from that... If we weren't there (in Cat's POV) I wonder how many people would have believed Brienne to not be a jealous freak or whatever reason there might have been.


Also, I have to say it is pretty weird for like... all the Kingsguard (well, those surviving the war back then) to join Robert afterwards. Putting aside any reasoning to stay loyal to Aerys, how can you suddenly be loyal to the guy who killed your last king? (Or tried to, whatever) And how could Robert trust them to protect him... Honor is a weird thing.

JustSomeGuy
2012-08-10, 08:31 AM
What do you all make of Varys? Alignment is all over the place, but even his actions and strategies seem somewhat random (or just bad ideas) and less pupeteer.

mangosta71
2012-08-10, 09:33 AM
His statement is that he serves the realm, no matter who the other players are. I see nothing to counter that statement, so certainly lawful. On the good-evil axis, he has both good (bargaining to save Ned's life) and evil (murdering Kevan Lannister) to his name. But I consider the majority of his actions neutral, so I'd say LN overall (though I'm sure that he considers himself good).

Tyndmyr
2012-08-10, 10:26 AM
His statement is that he serves the realm, no matter who the other players are. I see nothing to counter that statement, so certainly lawful. On the good-evil axis, he has both good (bargaining to save Ned's life) and evil (murdering Kevan Lannister) to his name. But I consider the majority of his actions neutral, so I'd say LN overall (though I'm sure that he considers himself good).

He is, in the end, a loyalist to the targaryens, yes? That said, I agree that LN is definitely his bag. Probably.

Dienekes
2012-08-10, 10:36 AM
His statement is that he serves the realm, no matter who the other players are. I see nothing to counter that statement, so certainly lawful. On the good-evil axis, he has both good (bargaining to save Ned's life) and evil (murdering Kevan Lannister) to his name. But I consider the majority of his actions neutral, so I'd say LN overall (though I'm sure that he considers himself good).

But his serving of the realm are largely breaking of the laws of the realm and committing murder of it's lords, some of them good people. It also is obvious that he wanted the lords of Westeros to be completely spent when the Targs finally return, so he's been actively trying to create a perpetual state of war. Yeah, I'm not sure if you can really definitively state it's Lawful or Neutral. Hell, he was plotting to kill Ned, eventually, just not when he actually died.

As for his manipulations, I think he's actually very good, one of the best probably, however he's more realistic look at it. He doesn't get everything right, his pawns sometimes do stupid things, but when we do finally get what his goal is (bring in a Targ ruler) a lot falls into place.

Weezer
2012-08-10, 11:16 AM
He is, in the end, a loyalist to the targaryens, yes? That said, I agree that LN is definitely his bag. Probably.

He's ostensibly a targ loyalist. I don't fully believe that because, well it's Varys and I won't believe that he's telling me the truth about his intentions until... actually I can't think of a situation that I'd believe him.

Hullabaloo
2012-08-10, 11:33 AM
Wow, fantastic thread.

I do think you were all harder on Varys then I was in my reading. I think CN would be the best for him. I do think he tried to live as he said to Ned Stark. For the little people. I think everything he has done in court was to dump all the people associated with the rebellion off the thrown (cause frankly they were all really be leaders, from Robert, on down).

JustSomeGuy
2012-08-10, 11:56 AM
Varys instigated the stark-lannister war, then tried to stall it later.

He kept king rob informed of viserys & dany, (two targs!), and set one of them up for assanination - someone as smart as he is should've kept them as a contingency, not a distraction because no-one else even knew about 'lil griff & co.

what good (for varys) would've come from ned taking the black? why set dany up with drogo? He was behind so much,but not all of it adds up (for me)

With regards lords/sers, just having a quick scan through the back of the first book, there are several 'discrepancies':

There are a few listed as 'ser' who are also lords, despite lordship being the higher title, there are some house lords serving under other lords, but not all houses are led by lords, most are sers, and i think maybe some were nobodies. Also, don't knights knight knights (if you get my drift), not the septons?

EDIT: Also, for someone sold, abused and left for dead, it would be pretty monstrous to forcefully mute then kill orphans. Is that how you see varys, because i don't think he'd be so plain evil given his past.

INDYSTAR188
2012-08-10, 01:35 PM
With regards lords/sers, just having a quick scan through the back of the first book, there are several 'discrepancies':

There are a few listed as 'ser' who are also lords, despite lordship being the higher title, there are some house lords serving under other lords, but not all houses are led by lords, most are sers, and i think maybe some were nobodies. Also, don't knights knight knights (if you get my drift), not the septons?


I believe that the Faith of the Seven have their own knightly order known as the 'Warriors Sons' which is the noble/highborn fighting force of the Faith Militant. As to your point about discrepancies... I think that the noble houses all try to have as many sons as possible and if you're not in direct line to succeed as Lord of your House you would squire and then gain a Knighthood as a way to make your own path in life. You would also be married out to strengthen the ties of your House. If the older siblings passed away the title, lands, and incomes become yours as well as the term 'Lord'. Beric Dondarrion says that any Knight can Knight another one deserving.

mangosta71
2012-08-10, 02:00 PM
Varys instigated the stark-lannister war, then tried to stall it later.
The Stark-Lannister war wasn't Varys's work. Jon Arryn discovered the incest, Littlefinger convinced Lysa to murder him and send a letter incriminating the Lannisters to Catelyn, Jaime shoved Bran out the window, and Joffrey hired the inept assassin that botched finishing the job on Bran. Robert's death was on Lancel Lannister, who was acting on orders from Cersei. The straw that broke the camel's back, Ned's execution by the order of Joffrey, came strictly against Varys's advice.

He kept king rob informed of viserys & dany, (two targs!), and set one of them up for assanination - someone as smart as he is should've kept them as a contingency, not a distraction because no-one else even knew about 'lil griff & co.
I'm not convinced that Varys knows nothing of Aegon. He has informants among the young Prince's contacts.

what good (for varys) would've come from ned taking the black? why set dany up with drogo? He was behind so much,but not all of it adds up (for me)
Ned being allowed to take the black was the last chance the Seven Kingdoms had of avoiding civil war. It could be that his execution was the point that Varys decided that the Lannisters were too ****ed up to help and started plotting to put a Targaryen back on the throne.

With regards lords/sers, just having a quick scan through the back of the first book, there are several 'discrepancies':

There are a few listed as 'ser' who are also lords, despite lordship being the higher title, there are some house lords serving under other lords, but not all houses are led by lords, most are sers, and i think maybe some were nobodies.
Lords seem to come in a number of flavors. Much like the European nobility of the Middle Ages, there are lots of different ranks. King over all, with a number of Lords, each has a number of lesser Lords answering to him, and so on in a classic pyramid scheme hierarchy. George doesn't bother to spell out who's an Earl, and who's a Count, and who's a Duke, and who's a Marquis, etc. It's much simpler to just call them all lords. However, only the current head of the House is allowed to use Lord as his title. If the Lord's son/brother/nephew/cousin is a knight, the proper title for that relative is therefore Ser. In the case of Edmure Tully - he was Ser Tully while his father lived, and Lord Tully after his father died.

Also, don't knights knight knights (if you get my drift), not the septons?
Knights are required to undergo a vigil, much like the knights of real-world antiquity. This is a religious ritual designed to be a display of piety. You are correct in that knights knight knights, but only after they complete both training and vigil.

EDIT: Also, for someone sold, abused and left for dead, it would be pretty monstrous to forcefully mute then kill orphans. Is that how you see varys, because i don't think he'd be so plain evil given his past.
Pretty sure that the murderspree on Robert's bastards was all Cersei. Varys prefers subtlety whenever possible, and having the guards marching around slaughtering children is decidedly not subtle.

Parra
2012-08-10, 02:07 PM
He is, in the end, a loyalist to the targaryens, yes? That said, I agree that LN is definitely his bag. Probably.

I would also agree with LN, though probably with LE leanings due to his willingness to kill anyone in the way of 'the plan'

'The plan' as far as I can tell, is to keep the realms in a state of civil war with all the 7 kingdoms fighting each other so his team can swoop in and take over

JustSomeGuy
2012-08-10, 03:08 PM
The Stark-Lannister war wasn't Varys's work.

Re-read where Arya overhears him and illyrio in the tunnels by the dragon skulls; he says "the wolf and the lion will soon be at each others throats, whether we will it or not" - they at least plan to start it, regardless of the individual offences


I'm not convinced that Varys knows nothing of Aegon. He has informants among the young Prince's contacts.
Of course he knows, they were all handled through Illyrio, that's why i said no-one else knows. He is probably the only one in Westeros, i'm meaning that he uses Dany like a pawn to stir the Westerosi while keeping Aegon hidden, instead of using both as equally important Targs (although it could be argued the Westerosi knew about her and her brother, but Varys could easily missinform them and eventually they'll forget about V&D).


Ned being allowed to take the black was the last chance the Seven Kingdoms had of avoiding civil war. It could be that his execution was the point that Varys decided that the Lannisters were too ****ed up to help and started plotting to put a Targaryen back on the throne. But Varys isn't trying to stop a civil war, just slow it down (or speed it up before Illyrio says no)


Lords seem to come in a number of flavors. Much like the European nobility of the Middle Ages, there are lots of different ranks. King over all, with a number of Lords, each has a number of lesser Lords answering to him, and so on in a classic pyramid scheme hierarchy. George doesn't bother to spell out who's an Earl, and who's a Count, and who's a Duke, and who's a Marquis, etc. It's much simpler to just call them all lords. However, only the current head of the House is allowed to use Lord as his title. If the Lord's son/brother/nephew/cousin is a knight, the proper title for that relative is therefore Ser. In the case of Edmure Tully - he was Ser Tully while his father lived, and Lord Tully after his father died.

Knights are required to undergo a vigil, much like the knights of real-world antiquity. This is a religious ritual designed to be a display of piety. You are correct in that knights knight knights, but only after they complete both training and vigil.

Pretty sure that the murderspree on Robert's bastards was all Cersei. Varys prefers subtlety whenever possible, and having the guards marching around slaughtering children is decidedly not subtle.

Didn't think of a multi-tiered lord system, that covers it pretty well (apart from why some regions have multiple lords of wherever and some have just one). And i wasn't meaning Varys would or did kill Roberts kids, i meant the little birds he uses (in reference to earlier posts).

Also interesting is that there were wars fought over who gets to be called a king, but Dorne is ignored because, despite keeping a royal family, they call all males prince. Seems like a technicality someone honourable, warlike or with a grudge would've picked up on to me.

mangosta71
2012-08-10, 04:09 PM
Re-read where Arya overhears him and illyrio in the tunnels by the dragon skulls; he says "the wolf and the lion will soon be at each others throats, whether we will it or not" - they at least plan to start it, regardless of the individual offences
I interpret that sentence as "The Starks and the Lannisters are going to war, and there's nothing we can do at this point to stop it." (The phrase "whether we like it or not" in common usage heavily implies "we don't like it.") So to me, that passage looks like they're changing their plans to make the best of a bad situation rather than plotting to incite a war. Besides, it doesn't really fit his style - I think his hands are clean on this point.

Logic
2012-08-10, 04:12 PM
Also, I have to say it is pretty weird for like... all the Kingsguard (well, those surviving the war back then) to join Robert afterwards. Putting aside any reasoning to stay loyal to Aerys, how can you suddenly be loyal to the guy who killed your last king? (Or tried to, whatever) And how could Robert trust them to protect him... Honor is a weird thing.

As far as I recall, the only Kingsguard that survived Robert's rebellion were Jaime and Barristan.

Weezer
2012-08-10, 04:16 PM
Correct, threedied at the tower of joy, two at the Trident. Which left just Barristan and Jaime after the war.