PDA

View Full Version : No Luck on Request a Homebrew



demonman24
2012-07-30, 08:16 PM
I made this thread when I was a utter noob to rules and monster creation in general, and I would rather not have this stain upon my post history haunting in the future. Please, please delete this thread.

Original, horribly ignorant text: I am a GM with little experience in monster design and in need of a design for the BBEG in our campaign. My general idea is an aeon from the Pathfinder Bestiary 2, a sort of upgraded Pleroma-esque thing. The class would probably be an extremely (but not to the point of gamebreaking) optimized lvl 30 wizard/lvl 30 cleric multiclass, representing the balance between creation and destruction and the divine and the arcane. Total caster level 60. Undetermined CR. I would be eternally grateful to anyone here who could do a full write up for me, or at least a general outline or template. Thanks!:smallbiggrin:

Maquise
2012-07-30, 08:35 PM
I don't think you realize what you are asking for. The most powerful creature you can get outside of divine ranks is Level 30. Caster Level 60 is... completely outside the game.

demonman24
2012-07-30, 08:50 PM
Well, it's a multiclass of a 30th level equivalent cleric and wizard, so couldn't you just combine them, like in a normal multiclass?

Steward
2012-07-30, 09:03 PM
Wait, are you asking for a monster, a class, or an original monster given wizard/cleric gestalt or multi-class levels, or an original monster given class levels in a new (original) class that has the total spell power of a level 30 cleric and a level 30 wizard?

demonman24
2012-07-30, 09:22 PM
I apologize if I wasn't specific enough in the OP, I am looking for an original monster with 30 levels in cleric and 30 levels in wizard, for a total caster level of 60, or a 60th level gestalt of the two, whichever would be more powerful. It would also be very helpful if such a gestalt or multiclass was already optimized by yourself or someone else as much as possible without getting to the point of breaking the game.

Loki_42
2012-07-30, 09:25 PM
Such a class combination would not give you a CL of 60. Wizard and Cleric both track Caster Level separately, so it would cast wizard spells at CL 30 and Cleric spells at CL 30, barring any weird theurge tricks.

demonman24
2012-07-30, 09:34 PM
OK, but I did request the highest level of optimization possible without game breaking and that almost definitely includes "weird theurge tricks".

Debihuman
2012-07-30, 09:43 PM
I apologize if I wasn't specific enough in the OP, I am looking for an original monster with 30 levels in cleric and 30 levels in wizard, for a total caster level of 60, or a 60th level gestalt of the two, whichever would be more powerful. It would also be very helpful if such a gestalt or multiclass was already optimized by yourself or someone else as much as possible without getting to the point of breaking the game.

It probably breaks the game for most people. I know I've never needed anything nearly that powerful. Unfortunately, you seem to want this to be Pathfinder compatible and I'm not proficient with that system yet. I am not sure I'd want to tackle it in 3.5 since it would be so complicated.

Sorry.

Debby

demonman24
2012-07-30, 09:48 PM
It doesn't have to be, I could probably take care of the conversion myself. The reason I need something so powerful is that it's supposed to be the BBEG in an epic-level campaign. And by breaking the game I mean Pun-Pun level breaking, not very high epic level min-maxing. Oh, and it would actually be better if it were a gestalt class. Thanks!

Network
2012-07-30, 09:48 PM
I don't think you realize what you are asking for. The most powerful creature you can get outside of divine ranks is Level 30. Caster Level 60 is... completely outside the game.
Caster Level 60 isn't much more powerful than Caster Level 40. And no, you can have an arbitrarily high level without being divine. After CR 90, however, it won't make that much sense. One notable CR 90 monster is the Time Dragon, who can cast an Empowered and Maximised Time stop at will. Not that the Immortal Handbook doesn't have CR 9 000+ monsters...

A gestalt Cleric/Wizard 60 will definitely be more powerful than a simple Cleric 30/Wizard 30. Notably, it will have more hp and better spellcasting.

Tacitus
2012-07-30, 09:52 PM
It comes down to this: Do you want it to be something your players can actually defeat, or not?

demonman24
2012-07-30, 10:02 PM
OK, thanks, do you think you could build/optimize that for me? That would be awesome.

toapat
2012-07-31, 01:16 AM
Diamorus, The Elder Being

You look upon a siloette of a male human form, but as a lense through which you see the night sky. A cloak of purest crystal hangs from it's shoulders, and in stark contrast to the empty void. The raw energy of creation radiates from this being.

Size/Type: Medium Overbeing
Hitdice: (3d8+12) + (57d8+228) (450 HP)
Inititive: +15
Speed: Fly 60 (Perfect) Epic Teleport without Error at will.
Armorclass: 23 (+13 Dexterity), Touch 23, Flat footed 10.
Base Attack/Grapple: +45/+45
Attack: None
Full Attack: None
Space/Reach: 5 ft/ 5 ft
Special Attacks: Touch of the Incomprehensible.
Special Qualities: Beyond Mortal. Unthinkable, Unknowable. Perceive.
Saves: +36 Fort, +45 Reflex, +32 Will
Abilities: 10 Str, 32 Dex, 18 Con, - Int, - Wis, - Cha
Feats: Power beyond comprehension, Shaper of Law, Without Warning.
Skills: Spellcraft +240

Environment: His Throne within The Far Realm
Organization: Singular
Challenge Rating: Good Luck.
Treasure: 21 Divine ranks.
Alignment: Without Mortal Comprehension
Advancement: unnecessary
LA: -

Combat:

Touch of the Incomprehensible: As a standard action, ~ may perform a melee touch attack against one creature. Any creature touched with this ability receives a vision lasting an instant of the total history of the universe. Any creature who receives these visions has their wisdom and charisma reduced to 0.

Beyond Mortal: When reduced to 0 HP, ~ enters stasis for one year, during which he heals. He does not age. He lacks need of food, water, or air.

Unthinkable, Unknowable: ~ does not have an intelligence, wisdom, or charisma scores. These scores are considered Infinte for all intents and purposes.

Perceive: No form of magic, no barriers, not darkness, nor fog. ~ does not suffer penalties for any effect that obscures knowledge of a person's location.

Power Beyond Comprehension: ~ can cast spells as a Wizard, Cleric, and Druid of level equal to his hitdice.

Shaper of Law: ~ can cast any spell he knows spontaneously, with any metamagic he knows applied to it. The spell level adjustment of metamagics do not apply to spells cast by ~.

Without Warning: Regardless of normal casting time, any spell that ~ takes one standard action to cast, and does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Network
2012-07-31, 10:47 AM
The build is so bad it will need his powers to actually be a challenge. He has only three feats, and they are unique and overpowered.

His hit points, AC, stats, and skills are all weak. He can't cast any spell at all because of the aforementioned stats.

I suggest the following instead :
Size/Type: Medium Outsider
Hitdice: 60d8 +300 (780 pv)
Initiative: +11
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), Fly 60ft. (Perfect)
Armorclass: 25 (+11 Dex, +4 Mage Armor), Touch 25, Flat footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +45/+45
Attack: None
Full Attack: None
Space/Reach: 5 ft/ 5 ft
Special Attacks: Spells, Turn undead
Special Qualities: Mage Armor, Rapid Summoning
Saves: +37 Fort, +37 Reflex, +44 Will
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 32, Con 20, Int 30, Wis 34, Cha 36
Feats: Augment Summoning, Divine Metamagic, Empower Spell, Eschew materials, Maximise Spell, Silent Spell, Spell Focus (conjuration), Still Spell and Quicken Spell
Epic feats : Epic Spellcasting, Ignore Material Components, Improved Metamagic (x4), Improved Spell Capacity (x8), Intensify Spell, Multispell (x4), Polyglot, Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), Spontaneous Domain Access (Luck), 4 other epic feats
Skills: Diplomacy +76, Knowledge (arcana) +73, Knowledge (nature) +73, Knowledge (religion) +73, Spellcraft +93, Use Magic Device +96, 5 others skills +63
Environment: The Center of the Multiverse
Organization: Singular
Challenge Rating: 61
Treasure: Normal
Alignment: True Neutral
Advancement: -
LA: -

Mage Armor (Su). As the spell, permanent.
Magic Mastery (Ex). Can ignore XP cost of non-epic spells, up to 5 000 PX per spell.
Rapid Summoning (Ex). Cast Summon Monster spells as a standard action (not a full round action).
Spells. Cast spells as a 60th level wizard and as a 60th level cleric. He knows all cleric and wizard spells and can prepare them without referring to a spellbook.
Cleric spells per day equal to (6/9/8/8/8/8/6/6/6/6/2/2/2/2), plus one bonus spell per level between 1 and 9. The save DC is 22 + spell level.
Prepared spells : 0- ; 1- ; 2- ; 3- ; 4- ; 5-Spell Resistance* ; 6- ; 7- ; 8- ; 9-Disjunction* ; 10-Quicken Implosion (x2) ; 11-Silent Quicken Disjunction ; 12- ; 13-
* Domain spells. Domains : Luck, Magic.
Wizard spells per day equal to (4/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/2/1/1/1). The save DC is 20 + spell level.
Prepared spells : 0- ; 1- ; 2- ; 3- ; 4- ; 5- ; 6- ; 7- ; 8- ; 9- ; 10-Quick Time Stop, Quick Wish ; 11- ; 12-Intensified Time Stop ; 13-
He can also cast 18 epic spells per day. 6 are arcane epic spells and 12 are divine epic spells (he choose when he cast the spell). The save DC is 30 for arcane epic spells and 32 for divine epic spells.
epic spells know : Hellball (non XP cost, 8d6 backlash), Let Go Of Me (no backlash), Safe Time
Turn undead (Su). 16 times a day.
Skills. Racial bonus of +20 on Spellcraft and Use Magic Device checks.

Now he can cast 5 9th level spells in the first round, with regular spell slots (but not more than once a day). Half decent.

demonman24
2012-07-31, 11:09 AM
That's awesome, but I was looking more for something like a spell list and an outline of the class and it's progression, and I also want it to be something my players can actually beat, if the wisdom score is infinite then the save DCs would be infinite too.

demonman24
2012-07-31, 11:12 AM
Sorry there was a server error and I double posted.

TheWombatOfDoom
2012-07-31, 11:29 AM
You can delete your second post in the edit window. ^.^

demonman24
2012-07-31, 11:40 AM
Thanks!So, any more ideas or designs for this monster?

Welknair
2012-07-31, 11:56 AM
That's awesome, but I was looking more for something like a spell list and an outline of the class and it's progression, and I also want it to be something my players can actually beat, if the wisdom score is infinite then the save DCs would be infinite too.

...I think you need to give some more information. What level are your players? How many of them do you have? What do you envision this character spending most of their time doing? When will the PCs fight this character?

And as was asked earlier: What exactly are you requesting? A spell list? Or a monster? Or a class? All three?

urkthegurk
2012-07-31, 11:57 AM
So it has an infinite will save. If you want to give players a way to get around that, give them a side quest to do, have a way to taint the thing with 'mortal perspective', even temporarily, thus giving it the 'real' mental scores that are listed above. Still high, but target-able. Otherwise, they have to stick to Ref, Fort, or no-save spells. Should be fun.

demonman24
2012-07-31, 12:13 PM
My players are level 20 right now, but are expected to be level 30 by the time they complete this adventure and fight the BBEG.There are three of them. I expect this character to spend most of their time preparing for their arrival with traps and researched spells, buffing itself, and sending evil guys after them. I am requesting all three for the purpose of being able to better customize it, and the class part should be min maxed as well for the maximum possible capabilities, without getting to game-breaking levels.

toapat
2012-07-31, 01:19 PM
My players are level 20 right now, but are expected to be level 30 by the time they complete this adventure and fight the BBEG.There are three of them. I expect this character to spend most of their time preparing for their arrival with traps and researched spells, buffing itself, and sending evil guys after them. I am requesting all three for the purpose of being able to better customize it, and the class part should be min maxed as well for the maximum possible capabilities, without getting to game-breaking levels.

Intensified Timestop at will seems like a pretty easy choice to actually use

demonman24
2012-07-31, 02:14 PM
I'm not sure what you mean. Also, Network, I like your build, but I feel it lacks flavor and special abilities, and it is supposed to fight and majorly challenge 3 30th level characters, so maybe you could optimize it up to or over 90 CR? Apologies in advance if it is already capable of that, and please explain how if so.

toapat
2012-07-31, 04:06 PM
I'm not sure what you mean. Also, Network, I like your build, but I feel it lacks flavor and special abilities, and it is supposed to fight and majorly challenge 3 30th level characters, so maybe you could optimize it up to or over 90 CR? Apologies in advance if it is already capable of that, and please explain how if so.

Intensify Spell is a metamagic in the Epic Levels Handbook, that maximizes die roles, then doubles are variables of a spell excluding cl and DC. Intensified Time Stop is a full 10 rounds of free action.

with infinite Int, Cha, and Wis, as well as free metamagics, that means it can be used for free every round. the Time dragon comparatively only gets 7 rounds of his at will time stop.

demonman24
2012-07-31, 04:25 PM
Thanks, but do you think you could make some alterations so it isn't invincible, just very difficult, for 3 30th level players?

toapat
2012-07-31, 04:46 PM
Thanks, but do you think you could make some alterations so it isn't invincible, just very difficult, for 3 30th level players?

Implosion, cast by a cleric using DMM: Heighten, spending at least 9 uses of turn undead, instant kill 95% of the time.


He doesnt have regen, SR, and his saves for fort and reflex are abysmal for his level.

Network
2012-07-31, 06:31 PM
I didn't post his 27 other feats, his prepared spells or his magic items. Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellResistance.htm) will grant him a SR of 72. He can cast two Quickened Miracles and two Quickened Wish in the same turn thanks to Divine metamagic and Multispell (but nothing prevent him to quicken Implosion too).

A Cloak of +10 Epic Resistance, and a Periapt of +12 Epic Wisdom, combined with a ring of Death ward and a ring of Universal Energy Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#universalEnergyImmunity) should be good enough. Something to boost Charisma, Intelligence or caster level is also useful.

demonman24
2012-07-31, 11:31 PM
Thank you!

demonman24
2012-08-01, 05:38 PM
Now if anyone has any ideas for special, original, abilities for this monster, that would be great!

Network
2012-08-01, 06:00 PM
An ability to ignore XP cost of non-epic spells, to make sure he can use Miracle and Wish without backlash.

The problem is that if we optimize him too much, he will not only be a threat, but also an unbeatable boss.

I didn't complete the build, but these feats remain interesting : Improved spell capacity, Improved metamagic, and Spontaneous domain access (luck). The first two will allow him to cast quickened 9th level spells more effectively, the third will allow him to spontaneously convert prepared divine spells in spells of the luck domain, thus allowing him to convert Implosion into Miracle if he needs to change of strategy.

Some arbitrary epic spell, according to his spellcraft modifier, may also be appropriate, otherwise Antimagic Field is so easily cast.

demonman24
2012-08-02, 10:09 AM
Do you think you could post the rest of his feats now?

Network
2012-08-02, 11:50 AM
Most feats are done now. I let you choose the remaining 4.

I didn't complete his list of prepared spells, but a couple of Summon Monster should be useful (he has augment summoning).

demonman24
2012-08-03, 08:03 PM
Can you put in some special abilities?

demonman24
2012-08-04, 12:07 AM
Like a more advanced version of the pleroma's sphere of oblivion and sphere of creation, maybe no save DC and no resurrection short of divine intervention?

Network
2012-08-04, 11:31 AM
Do as you wish. You have only 4 feats, a spell list, and 5 skills to choose. I don't know what a pleroma is, but if it is a no-save-die-for-good, I can only see two issues :
* It is a Death or a Mental effect, making it completely useless.
* It is neither, making it completely broken regardless of the CR.

Debihuman
2012-08-04, 01:29 PM
Got a blank page when I tried to edit this. AAAARGGGG. In any case, I will revamp the deity as a Rank 20 instead of Rank 21 since Rank 21 is not able to be defeated.

Debby

toapat
2012-08-04, 01:46 PM
Edited for you:

Debby

The guy i made is given a unique type and no mental scores because he is like that guy who Ao reports to, a Being which gods fear and report to, so far above mortals, immortals, and divine beings that he litterally can not be comprehended.

The enemy was asked to be 3.5, not necessarily PF compliant.

he also asked for a character based on PF's Aeons, and the one i selected had D8 health.

also, yes, Overdieties DO have infinite scores, because they are DM standins.

and the 21 divine ranks is the treasure for killing him.

Network
2012-08-04, 02:40 PM
Ao has a divine rank of 50.

Don't trust me? Go see Divine Dodge. He's mentioned as immune to damage and to all attacks. Divine rank 50 is enough for that, and above this, there would be too many salient divine abilities to count.
Armor Class: As a deity it has a divine AC bonus equal to its divine rank, a natural AC bonus of +13, and a deflection bonus equal to Charisma modifier. Also, the dexterity bonus is +11 not +13.
Natural AC bonus is +13 + divine rank, so it is technically +34.
For example, it is missing Immortal in Special Abilities.
Immortal? Ha! I consider this a formality. Everyone gets it sooner or later.

Debihuman
2012-08-04, 03:24 PM
I repeat: If it is an overdeity then it should follow Divine Rules regardless. If you want something that would be unplayable then don't even bother statting it up and let is autosucceed at everything it does. Giving a creature (even the uberdeity) infinite mental abilities is game-breaking. It can't be defeated, it succeeds at every check etc. Also, this is what the original poster asked for:


I also want it to be something my players can actually beat, if the wisdom score is infinite then the save DCs would be infinite too.

Gaining Divine Rank as a reward for killing an overdeity is also game breaking. How you play your home game is not my concern though. I'm trying to give the original poster something HE can play and use.

Now, getting back to my critique to make it something actually BEATABLE.
If you really wanted your creature to be based on aeons, it would have this:



Aeons are a race of neutral outsiders who roam the planes maintaining the balance of reality.

Aeons have the following traits:


Immunity to cold, poison, and critical hits.
Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.
Envisaging (Su) Aeons communicate wordlessly, almost incomprehensibly. Caring little for the wants and desires of other creatures, they have no need to engage in exchanges of dialogue. Instead, aeons mentally scan beings for their thoughts and intentions, and then retaliate with flashes of psychic projections that emit a single concept in response to whatever the other being was thinking. The flash is usually a combination of a visual and aural stimulation, which displays how the aeon perceives future events might work out. For instance, an aeon seeking to raze a city communicates this concept to non-aeons by sending them a vivid image of the city crumbling to ash. An aeon’s envisaging functions as a non-verbal form of telepathy. Aeons cannot read the thoughts of any creature immune to mind-affecting effects.
Extension of All (Ex) Through an aeon’s connection to the multiverse, it gains access to strange and abstruse knowledge that filters through all existence. Much of the knowledge is timeless, comprised of events long past, present, and potentially even those yet to come. Aeons gain a racial bonus equal to half their racial Hit Dice on all Knowledge skill checks. This same connection also binds them to other aeons. As a result, they can communicate with each other freely, over great distances as if using telepathy. This ability also works across planes, albeit less effectively, allowing the communication of vague impressions or feelings, not specific details or sights. Due to the vast scope of the aeon race’s multiplanar concerns, though, even the most dire reports of a single aeon rarely inspire dramatic or immediate action.
Void Form (Su) Though aeons aren’t incorporeal, their forms are only a semi-tangible manifestation of something greater. An aeon’s void form grants it a deflection bonus equal to 1/4 its Hit Dice (rounded down).



It would be quite easy to add Aeon Subtype to Diamorus.

Since the Void Form deflection bonus on Diamorus would be +15 and the divine deflection bonus is +13, it would use the better one. Deflection bonuses do not stack.

Since he has 20 levels each of cleric and wizard, Power Beyond Comprehension needs some tweaking.

Power Beyond Comprehension (Ex): Diamorus is not restricted to wizard and cleric spells lists. He can cast any divine spell as a cleric and any arcane spell as a wizard. He must still know a spell in order to cast it.

See in Darkness and Fog (Su): Diamorus can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, including that created by deeper darkness. He can also see perfectly in fog of any kind, including fog that is magical and supernatural in nature.

Shaper of Law (Ex): Daimorus can cast any spell he knows spontaneously, with any metamagic he knows applied to it. The spell level adjustment of metamagics do not apply to spells cast by him.

Without Warning (Ex): Regardless of normal casting time, any spell that Diarmorus casts takes one standard action to cast and does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): At Will--locate creature as the spell except that it is not blocked by running water, and Diamorus is never fooled by mislead, non-detection and polymorph spells.
Caster Level 60th.

True Seeing (Su): This ability works like the true seeing spell (caster level 60th), except it only affects Diamorus and he must concentrate for 1 full round before it takes effect, and it remains as long as the he concentrates.

Debby

Network
2012-08-04, 04:01 PM
Without Warning (Ex): Regardless of normal casting time, any spell that Diarmorus casts takes one standard action to cast and does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
He can't quicken. :smalleek:

Although it's more playable than with Toapat, I disagree with the use of an overdeity. But I can't propose a better solution.

Debihuman
2012-08-04, 04:20 PM
Well, I can always change these abilities. Don't forget I haven't even factored in Salient Divine Abilities and all the modifiers. I'm not really inclined to because there are just so freaking many. As for putting Immortality in the Stat block, it should be there. Between all the bonuses from Epic features and Divine Rank, this is a major headache.

Divine Dodge only has a prerequisite of Dex 29. A deity can take it with a Divine Rank of 1. A deity has one salient ability for each divine rank the deity has.

Debby

toapat
2012-08-04, 05:03 PM
Ao has a divine rank of 50.

Ao doesnt have a recognized published stat block, being a DM standin. the same goes with The Lady of Pain and Io. He also would not have over 21 divine ranks, because unlike epic, Overdietyhood is a hardcap.

Network
2012-08-04, 05:36 PM
Divine Dodge only has a prerequisite of Dex 29. A deity can take it with a Divine Rank of 1. A deity has one salient ability for each divine rank the deity has.
Divine Dodge works like the Blink spell, but it has a slight twist : every attack has 50% + divine rank to miss you. 50 + 50 = 100%, making Ao invulnerable to all attacks (unless someone comes with an area Dimensional Anchor effect).

Of course, divine rank 50 is just the number I came with. It could be divine rank 51, or 52, or 253...


Ao doesnt have a recognized published stat block, being a DM standin. the same goes with The Lady of Pain and Io. He also would not have over 21 divine ranks, because unlike epic, Overdietyhood is a hardcap.
Go look at the SRD :
Rank 21+
There is no cap. Ao is divine rank 50, otherwise he would not be immune to damage as he is explicitly stated. The Lady of Pain isn't a goddess. She isn't a mortal either, so she must have ranks in something else. For Io, I don't know. Another overdeity who worship a greater god?

Edit : Let's just return at the first subject. Anyone has any idea for the 4 remaining feats?

Debihuman
2012-08-04, 07:21 PM
Network, where do you get the idea that Ao has Divine Rank 50? He isn't statted up and all deities have a lot of immunities. Also, some Deities and Demigods information was updated to 3.5 in the update booklet.

Quoted from the SRD


Rank 21+[/B]

These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god. That's all that is said in the SRD.

There is nothing in the SRD that describes Ao specifically, especially since Ao is not open content. So please cite to where you are getting your information about him.

Debby

Network
2012-08-04, 08:11 PM
The Forgotten Realm campaign setting (3rd edition). He is explicitly stated as immune to all attacks, including the concerted assault of all gods of Toril.

For me, he blatantly has Divine Dodge. The salient ability does just that when you reach this level of power. We can't be sure of anything else, pass he is divine rank 50 and has Divine Dodge. :smallwink: This is an all logical conclusion.

toapat
2012-08-04, 08:26 PM
The Forgotten Realm campaign setting (3rd edition). He is explicitly stated as immune to all attacks, including the concerted assault of all gods of Toril.

For me, he blatantly has Divine Dodge. The salient ability does just that when you reach this level of power. We can't be sure of anything else, pass he is divine rank 50 and has Divine Dodge. :smallwink: This is an all logical conclusion.

that is because that is an inherent attribute of Divine Rank 21.

demonman24
2012-08-06, 08:11 PM
But how could three 30th level players even beat a deity, and also, what would you (Debihuman) substitute for Diamorus' mental ability scores?

toapat
2012-08-06, 08:21 PM
But how could three 30th level players even beat a deity, and also, what would you (Debihuman) substitute for Diamorus' mental ability scores?

the same way you kill anything once you have gate.

Network
2012-08-06, 09:15 PM
If he wanted to make a god, I would suggest to make a combination of both the SRD and the Immortal Handbook. The last one is still the best reference any time gods are used. Some high-ranked gods have something like DR 82/- and 999d1000 HD per level, but invulnerability is not an automatism for any rank.

I won't debate any longer about this. Demonman27, you said you wanted a summoner, did you? I will modify this post for now on.


Size/Type: Medium Outsider (aeon)
Hitdice: 60d8 +300 (780 pv)
Initiative: +11
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), Fly 60ft. (Perfect)
Armorclass: 40 (+11 Dex, +4 Mage Armor, +15 Void Form), Touch 40, Flat footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +45/+45
Attack: None
Full Attack: None
Space/Reach: 5 ft/ 5 ft
Special Attacks: Spells, Sphere of Creation, Sphere of Oblivion, Turn undead
Special Qualities: Envisaging, Extension of All, Immunity to cold, poison, and critical hits, Improved Contingency, Mage Armor, Rapid Summoning, Resistance to electricity (10) and fire (10), Void form
Saves: +37 Fort, +37 Reflex, +44 Will
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 32, Con 20, Int 30, Wis 34, Cha 36
Feats: Augment Summoning, Divine Metamagic, Empower Spell, Eschew materials, Extend Spell, Extra Turning, Maximise Spell, Silent Spell, Spell Focus (conjuration), Still Spell and Quicken Spell
Epic feats : Epic Spellcasting, Ignore Material Components, Improved Metamagic (x4), Improved Spell Capacity (x8), Intensify Spell, Multispell (x4), Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), Spontaneous Domain Access (Luck)
Skills: Concentration +68, Diplomacy +76, Knowledge (arcana) +103, Knowledge (nature) +103, Knowledge (religion) +103, Knowledge (the planes) +103, Spellcraft +93, Use Magic Device +96, 3 others skills +63
Environment: The Center of the Multiverse
Organization: Singular
Challenge Rating: 61
Treasure: Normal
Alignment: True Neutral
Advancement: -
LA: -

Envisaging (Su). Diamorus communicate almost only by telepathy. Unlike most aeons, he can talk, but rarely does so. The effect of his telepathy is similar to the Detect Thoughts spell, but it is always active (he doesn't have to concentrate) and he reads thoughts at first sight. He can communicate in non-verbal ways to people in range of the effect, assuming they aren't immune to mind-affecting effects. He is under a permanent Tongues spell, but rarely rely on it.
Extension of All (Ex). Diamorus has a racial bonus to all knowledge skill checks equal to half his Hit Dices (rounded down).
Improved contingency (Ex). Diamorus can use the Contingency spell in combination with any spell of 9th level or lower. He generally uses this power to activate Time Stop whenever he is attacked.
Mage Armor (Su). As the spell, permanent.
Magic Mastery (Ex). Diamorus can ignore XP cost of non-epic spells, up to 5 000 PX per spell.
Polymorphism (Sp). As a free action, Diamorus can partially take the form of a new creature. His size does not change and his powers and ability scores remain the same, however he gains all Special Attacks and Special Qualities of the creature. He can also change into a creature with class levels.
If this ability is dispelled (caster level 60), Diamorus can reactivate it on his next turn. He will still lose his abilities for that time, however.
Rapid Summoning (Ex). Diamorus cast Summon Monster spells as a standard action (not a full round action).
Spells. Diamorus cast spells as a 60th level wizard and as a 60th level cleric. He knows all cleric and wizard spells and can prepare them without referring to a spellbook.
Cleric spells per day equal to (6/9/8/8/8/8/6/6/6/6/2/2/2/2), plus one bonus spell per level between 1 and 9. The save DC is 22 + spell level.
Prepared spells : 0- ; 1- ; 2- ; 3- ; 4- ; 5-Spell Resistance* ; 6- ; 7- ; 8- ; 9-Disjunction*, Gate (x2) ; 10-Quick Implosion (x2) ; 11-Silent Quick Disjunction, Still Quick Gate ; 12- ; 13-
* Domain spells. Domains : Luck, Magic.
Wizard spells per day equal to (4/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/2/1/1/1). The save DC is 20 + spell level.
Prepared spells : 0- ; 1-Summon Monster I (x3) ; 2-Summon Monster II (x3) ; 3-Summon Monster III (x3) ; 4-Summon Monster IV (x2) ; 5-Summon Monster V (x2) ; 6-Contingency, Summon Monster VI (x2) ; 7-Antimagic Aura (x3), Summon Monster VII (x2) ; 8- ; 9- ; 10-Quick Time Stop, Quick Wish ; 11- ; 12-Intensified Time Stop ; 13-Silent Still Quick Time Stop
He can also cast 18 epic spells per day. 6 are arcane epic spells and 12 are divine epic spells (he choose when he cast the spell). The save DC is 30 for arcane epic spells and 32 for divine epic spells.
epic spells know : Hellball (non XP cost, 8d6 backlash), Let Go Of Me (no backlash), Safe Time
Sphere of Creation (Su). Three times per day, Diamorus can manifest a 2-foot-diameter sphere of white energy that hovers above his left hand. By concentrating, he can cause it to fly slowly at a speed of 10 feet per round. The sphere can travel in any direction, but must remain within 300 feet of him or it immediately dissipates. Wherever the sphere travels, it leaves behind a 5-foot-wide path of new matter, creating either new terrain (such as swamp, tundra, desert, or forest) or a 10-foot-square wall composed of a single natural substance (such as clay, wood, or stone). Any existing matter that comes in contact with the sphere is absorbed and incorporated into the new substance, with no save (only freedom, miracle, or wish can rescue creatures so trapped). The sphere is highly unstable and only lasts 1d4 minutes before exploding with a blinding flash. All creatures within 30 feet of the flash must make a DC 53 Fortitude save or be permanently blinded. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Sphere of Oblivion (Su). Three times per day, Diamorus can manifest a 2-foot-diameter sphere of complete darkness that hovers above his right hand. The sphere is an empty void similar to a sphere of annihilation. Any matter (living or nonliving) that touches the sphere is sucked into the sphere and destroyed, with no save (only freedom, miracle, or wish can rescue creatures so trapped). Larger objects are destroyed at a rate of one 10-foot cube per round of contact with the sphere. By concentrating, Diamorus can cause the sphere to fly slowly at a speed of 10 feet per round. The sphere can travel in any direction, but must remain within 300 feet of him or it immediately dissipates. The sphere is highly unstable and only lasts 1d4 minutes before harmlessly imploding upon itself. Alternatively, Diamorus may hurl the sphere as a ranged touch attack (with a 10-foot range increment) against a single creature. When thrown in this manner, the sphere implodes immediately after the attack is resolved.
Turn undead (Su). 20 times a day.
Void Form (Su). Diamorus has a deflection bonus to his AC equal to 1/4 of his Hit Dices (rounded down) or his Charisma modifier, whichever is higher.
Skills. Diamorus has a racial bonus of +20 on Spellcraft and Use Magic Device checks. His Extension of All ability also grant him a racial bonus of +30 on all knowledge skill checks.

Strategy
Diamorus will make a great use of Divine Metamagic, whenever something would prevent him to cast the right spell. He can also use Spontaneous Domain Access (Luck) to convert any divine spell into a spell of the luck domain and of the appropriate level (including Miracle if he converts a 9th level spell or higher). If someone survives to his combination of five or six spells in the first few rounds, he would probably use his other few abilities to impress them. Despite his ability to cast spells in mass, he will rapidly run out of spells. He uses an efficient combination of Time Stop and Gate to escape if the opponent seem too strong.

Edit : I just found what a pleroma was. This isn't unbeatable with no save (too slow). I'd prefer not to make spheres destroy soul, however. The PCs may not realise what's going on before one actually touch it.

demonman24
2012-08-06, 09:56 PM
Thanks, Network! I would also like to have equally hard hitting spell-casting abilities, and the ability to more effectively synergise contingency with Time Stop. And I don't remember saying I wanted a summoner, but it would work well with Time Stop to Gate in minions.

Debihuman
2012-08-07, 05:59 AM
But how could three 30th level players even beat a deity, and also, what would you (Debihuman) substitute for Diamorus' mental ability scores?

Technically, three 30th-level PCs should NOT be able to beat a a 60th deity--especially one divine rank 20, if you play it by the book.

Here's a simple test to see if the PCs are up to the quest:

Divine Aura at rank 20 affects creatures within 20 miles (1 mile per rank). The Will save is 10 + the deity's rank + deity's Charisma modifier. If one of them fails the save, he or she becomes Shaken. "The merest glance or gesture from the deity makes them Frightened, and they flees a quickly as they can...." DC is 30 + Charisma modifier (if you set Cha at 60, the modifier is +25).

How to design your deity: Can any of your PCs beat a Will save DC 55? If not, the deity is too hard for them. [This is why Charisma at infinity is a poor design choice.] You can adjust the stats or the deity's rank to get a number YOU like.

Can they beat the number easily (roll of 10 or better on D20) or is it going to be tough (roll of 15 or better)? It's one thing to challenge the PCs, but don't frustrate the PLAYERS. The game will stop being fun quickly if you do. If everything is too hard, it's not fun but if it is too easy, it's not challenging. It's a fine line in creature design. That's why knowing your players is so important. You can design something that's perfect for THEM.

When you come here and ask us to homebrew, we don't know your players and we have no idea what their PCs can and can't do. We can give you a model deity, but it still may not be all that useful to you.


Here is the mostly finished version of the deity. All I can say is how much I wish Deities and Demigods had been updated to 3.5 and been updated to include Epic rules. There are some rules updates in the official 3.5 Update Booklet (so I'm checking there as I go). Since I am using straight 3.5 rules, I've updated his hit dice and hit points to reflect this as of 8/16/12. Skills are still incomplete. I'm giving him maximum skill ranks in the skills he has (he gets 33 skills at rank 63 and epic synergies allow him +6 to skills with synergy instead of the usual +2).

Since there was a desire to remake Diamorus as a former Pleroma (from Pathfinder Bestiary 2, open content), I've incorporated that information as well, although I've changed the focus considerably.


Diamorus
The Searcher
Greater Deity
Symbol: A boomerang with a bolt of lightning emanating from it
Home Plane: Plane of Concordant Opposition
Alignment: Neutral
Portfolio: Common Sense, Crafts, Creation, Knowledge, Learning, Light, Wisdom, Wit
Worshipers: Humans, half-elves, half-orcs
Cleric Alignments:Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Neutral, Neutral, Neutral Good
Domains: Glory, Knowledge and Time

Once a powerful pleromaPathfinder Bestiary 2, Diamorus’ ascent to godhood rendered many changes. Diamorus now appears as a tall, lanky human male with inky black skin and eyes. He wears a full-length black cloak that covers most of his body and flutters around him whether or not there is a breeze. Swirling stars and planets float across the cloak in random patterns. The cloak is the equivalent of a robe of scintillating colors.

As a deity, Diamorus’ focus on the acquisition of knowledge has given him an appreciation of the mortals who pray to him. Although he views his worshipers as little more than an extension of himself, this is a profound change from the typical pleroma outlook. As a result, his ascendance has narrowed his focus and given him abilities to reflect those changes.

While he cares very little for the welfare of his followers as their lives and deaths are part of the natural order, he views undead as mockery of the natural order of things. While he does not actively hunt undead creatures, he uses his boomerang to eradicate any that cross his path.

Diamorus, The Searcher
Cleric 20/Wizard 20
Medium Outsider (Aeon, Augmented Pleroma*, Extraplanar)
Divine Rank: 20
Hit Dice: 20d10+80 (Outsider) + 20d8+80 (Cleric) + 20d4+80 (Wizard) (680 hp)
Initiative: +15 (+11 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 60 ft.
Armor class: 99 (+ 11 Dex, +20 divine, +33 natural +25 deflection), Touch 66, Flat-footed 88.
Base Attack/Grapple: +45/+65
Attack: Energy touch +45 melee (20d8) or +5 returning seeking shocking boomerang +81 (+85 to undead) ranged (1d6+5 plus 1d6 electricity plus 4d6 to undead only**)
Full Attack: Energy touch +45 melee (20d8) or +5 returning seeking shocking boomerang + 81 (+85 to undead) ranged (1d6+5 plus 1d6 electricity plus 4d6 to undead only*)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/ 5 ft
Special Attacks: Energy Touch, Salient Divine Abilities, Spell-like Abilities, Spells, Turn Undead
Special Qualities: Automatic Actions, Communication, Damage Reduction 30/epic, Darkvision 20 miles., Divine Aura (DC 55), Divine Immunities (see below) , Envisaging, Extension of All, Familiar, Godly Realm, Grant Spells, Immortality, Remote Communication, Remote Senses, Resistance to Fire 25, Spell Resistance 52, Sphere of Creation, Sphere of Oblivion, Spontaneous Casting, Travel, Void Form
Saves: +63 Fort, +64 Reflex, +90 Will
Abilities: Str 10 (+0), Dex 33 (+11), Con 18 (+4), Int 61 (+25), Wis 60 (+25), Cha 61 (+25)
Feats: Combat Casting, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell (B), Eschew Materials (B), Extend Spell (B), Forge Ring, Improved Initiative, Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll (B), Silent Spell (B), Quick Draw
Epic Feats:Blinding Speed, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Rod, Craft Epic Staff, Craft Epic Wand, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Efficient Item Creation, Forge Epic Ring, Ignore Material Components,
Salient Abilities: Alter Size, Alter Reality, Banestrike (Undead), Battlesense, Clearsight, Craft Artifact, Create Object, Divine Blessing (Intelligence), Divine Blessing (Wisdom), Divine Blessing (Charisma), Divine Celerity, Divine Dodge, Divine Inspiration, Divine Recall, Divine Shield, Divine Spellcasting, Divine Splendor, Energy Burst (Electricity), Frightful Presence, Know Secrets
Skills: Appraise +108 (+114 to related items made with any Craft skill), Concentration +87, Craft (alchemy) +108, Craft (armorsmithing) +108, Craft (weaponsmithing) +108, Decipher Script +108, Diplomacy +113, Disable Device +108, Gather Information +114, Handle Animal +108, Intimidate +108, Knowledge (arcana) +108, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +108, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +108, Knowledge (geography) +108, Knowledge (history), +108 Knowledge (local) +108, Knowledge (nature) +108, Knowledge (nobility & royalty) +108, Knowledge (religion) +108, Knowledge (the planes) +108, Listen +108, Move Silently +94, Open Lock +94, Perform (oratory) +108, Ride +100, Search+ 108 (+114 to find secret doors or hidden compartments), Sense Motive +108, Speak Language***, Spellcraft +114 (+120 to Spellcraft checks to decipher spells on scrolls), Spot +108 (+114 on Spot check in shadowy or other darkened areas); Use Magic Device +114 (+120 to Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls)
Environment: Plane of Concordant Opposition
Organization: Solitary (Unique)
Challenge Rating: 59
Treasure: Cloak of scintillating colors and +5 returning seeking shocking boomerang
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: By Class
Level Adjustment: —
*Designer Notes: Changes from original pleroma. -4 HD, -14 Str, +6 Dex, -8 Con, +34 Int +30 Wis, +36 Cha. He has different feats and skills. His saves include the +1 luck bonus from his cloak.
These choices were arbitrarily chosen by me and might be overpowered.
**See banestrike salient ability
***See Communication in Divine Characteristics.

Features and traits Diamorus has (due to his Type, Subtype and Divine Rank):

Outsider Traits

An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).


Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe*, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

*Deities don't need to breathe.

Aeon Traits

Envisaging (Su): Aeons communicate wordlessly, almost incomprehensibly. Caring little for the wants and desires of other creatures, they have no need to engage in exchanges of dialogue. Instead, aeons mentally scan beings for their thoughts and intentions, and then retaliate with flashes of psychic projections that emit a single concept in response to whatever the other being was thinking. The flash is usually a combination of a visual and aural stimulation, which displays how the aeon perceives future events might work out. For instance, an aeon seeking to raze a city communicates this concept to non-aeons by sending them a vivid image of the city crumbling to ash. An aeon’s envisaging functions as a non-verbal form of telepathy. Aeons cannot read the thoughts of any creature immune to mind-affecting effects.

Extension of All (Ex): Through an aeon’s connection to the multiverse, it gains access to strange and abstruse knowledge that filters through all existence. Much of the knowledge is timeless, comprised of events long past, present, and potentially even those yet to come. Aeons gain a racial bonus equal to half their racial Hit Dice on all Knowledge skill checks. This same connection also binds them to other aeons. As a result, they can communicate with each other freely, over great distances as if using telepathy. This ability also works across planes, albeit less effectively, allowing the communication of vague impressions or feelings, not specific details or sights. Due to the vast scope of the aeon race’s multiplanar concerns, though, even the most dire reports of a single aeon rarely inspire dramatic or immediate action.

Void Form (Su): Though aeons aren’t incorporeal, their forms are only a semi-tangible manifestation of something greater. An aeon’s void form grants it a deflection bonus equal to 1/4 its Hit Dice (rounded down). [Note that Daimorus' divine rank gives him a better deflection and so he uses that instead. Deflection bonuses do not stack.]

Pleroma Traits

Energy Touch (Su): Diamorus’ touch deals 20d8 points of damage from positive or negative energy, depending upon which type of energy would harm the creature touched. His touch never heals damage.

Sphere of Creation (Su): Three times per day, Diamorus can manifest a 2-foot-diameter sphere of white energy that hovers above its left hand. By concentrating, the pleroma can control this sphere, causing it to fly slowly at a speed of 10 feet per round. The sphere can travel in any direction, but must remain within 300 feet of the pleroma or it immediately dissipates. Wherever the sphere travels, it leaves behind a 5-foot-wide path of new matter, creating either new terrain (such as swamp, tundra, desert, or forest) or a 10-foot-square wall composed of a single natural substance (such as clay, wood, or stone). Any existing matter, either living or nonliving that comes in contact with the sphere must make a DC 44 Fortitude save or be absorbed and incorporated into the new substance (only freedom, miracle, or wish can rescue creatures so trapped). Creatures that save are pushed to the nearest unoccupied location adjacent to the newly created substance. The sphere is highly unstable and only lasts 1d4 minutes before exploding with a blinding flash. All creatures within 30 feet of the flash must make a DC 44 Fortitude save or be permanently blinded. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Sphere of Oblivion (Su): Three times per day, Diamorus can manifest a 2-foot-diameter sphere of complete and utter darkness that hovers above its right hand. The sphere is an empty void similar to a sphere of annihilation. Any matter (living or nonliving) that touches the sphere must succeed on a DC 44 Fortitude save or be sucked into the sphere and destroyed. Larger objects (such as ships or buildings) are destroyed at a rate of one 10-foot cube per round of contact with the sphere. By concentrating, Diamorus can control this sphere, causing it to fly slowly at a speed of 10 feet per round. The sphere can travel in any direction, but must remain within 300 feet of the pleroma or it immediately dissipates. The sphere is highly unstable and only lasts 1d4 minutes before harmlessly imploding upon itself. Alternatively, the pleroma may hurl the sphere as a ranged touch attack (with a 10-foot range increment) against a single creature. When thrown in this manner, the sphere implodes immediately after the attack is resolved. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Divine Characteristics

See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#rank16-20

• Attacks: A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all attack rolls and as long it has divine rank 1, it does not automatically fail on a natural 1 roll.
• Always Maximize Roll: Greater deities automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll and damage roll. They never need the Maximize Spell feat because their spells have maximum effect already.
• Saving Throws: A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all saving throws and rank 1 or higher do not automatically fail on a natural saving throw roll of 1.
• Checks: A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all skill checks, ability checks, caster level checks, and turning checks.
• Immunities: A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification and any other effect that alters it form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself. A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain and ability damage. A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns and morale affects). Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold and acid even if the attacker is a deity of higher rank. Deities of rank or higher are immune to disease, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects and disintegration. Deities of rank 6 or higher are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include: banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking.
• Damage Reduction: A deity has damage reduction based on divine rank. It seems that Diamorus should have DR 30/epic. [Deities and Demigods had DR updated in the 3.5 updated booklet]
• Immortality: All deities are naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. Deities do not age and they do not need to eat, sleep or breathe. The only way for a deity to die is through special circumstances, usually by being slain in magical or physical combat.
• There are more but I'm too tired to list them all.

Communication: A deity of rank 1 or higher can understand, speak, and read any language, including nonverbal languages. The deity can speak directly to any beings within one mile of itself per divine rank.

Divine Aura: The mere presence of a deity of rank 1 or higher can deeply affect mortals and beings of lower divine rank. All divine aura effects are mind-affecting, extraordinary abilities. Mortals and other deities of lower rank can resist the aura’s effects with successful Will saves; the DC is 10 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier. Deities are immune to the auras of deities of equal or lower rank. Any being who makes a successful saving throw against a deity’s aura power becomes immune to that deity’s aura power for one day. Divine aura is an emanation that extends around the deity in a radius whose size is a function of divine rank. The deity chooses the size of the radius and can change it as a free action. If the deity chooses a radius of 0 feet, its aura power effectively becomes non-functional. When two or more deities’ auras cover the same area, only the aura that belongs to the deity with the highest rank functions. If divine ranks are equal, the auras coexist.

The deity can make its own worshipers, beings of its alignment, or both types of individuals immune to the effect as a free action. The immunity lasts one day or until the deity dismisses it. Once affected by an aura power, creatures remain affected as long as they remain within the aura’s radius. The deity can choose from the following effects each round as a free action.


Daze: Affected beings just stare at the deity in fascination. They can defend themselves normally but can take no actions.

Fright: Affected beings become shaken and suffer a -2 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks. The merest glance or gesture from the deity makes them frightened, and they flee as quickly as they can, although they can choose the path of their flight.

Resolve: The deity’s allies receive a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and checks, while the deity’s foes receive a -4 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks.


Familiar: A deity of rank 1 or higher with levels as a sorcerer or a wizard has the ability to treat any creature of a given kind as a familiar, as long as that creature is within a distance of one mile per divine rank of the deity. This special familiar ability only applies to one creature at a time, but the deity can switch between one creature and another instantaneously, as long as the second creature is within range. This special familiar ability does not replace the deity’s ability to have a normal familiar, which could be any kind of eligible creature. Diamorus treats any bird and birdlike creature as familiar and his normal familiar is a black crow.

Remote Communication: As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): At Will—All domain spells from Glory, Knowledge and Time domains. Caster Level 30. DC 55+ spell level.

Travel (Sp): A deity of rank 1 or higher can use greater teleport as a spell-like ability at will, as the spell cast by a 20th-level character, except that the deity can transport only itself and up to 100 pounds of objects per divine rank. A deity of rank 6 or higher also can use plane shift as a spell-like ability at will, as the spell cast by a 20th-level character, except that the deity can only transport itself and up to 100 pounds of objects. If the deity has a familiar, personal mount, or personal intelligent weapon, the creature can accompany the deity in any mode of travel if the deity touches it. The creature’s weight counts against the deity’s weight limit.


Debby

P.S. his is mostly finished other adding familiar stats, completing special abilities and adding spells. Adding spells is so time consuming that I'm loathe to finish this. I used to hate critiquing epic creatures and I can state that I hate designing them too.

Changed Bonus Wizard Feats since deities have spontaneous casting and thus don't need spell mastery as a feat.

demonman24
2012-08-07, 05:07 PM
Thanks, my players are, one half elf ranger, 1 half elf barbarian, and 1 drow noble wizard. The ranger specializes in battle, and the drow in evocation, conjuration, and has a few high level transformation and abjuration spells like Time Stop and Prismatic Sphere.

Network
2012-08-07, 05:56 PM
13-Silent Still Quick Time Stop
If your players can stop (:smallbiggrin:) this, they have a chance to fight him. Sphere of X added for you, and I added spells to his spell list.

I resisted the urge to add Double-Rapid Quick True Resurrection, but this is more of a good solution against him.

demonman24
2012-08-07, 09:56 PM
Also, do you think you could increase his stats? because the original Pleroma had much better physical stats,and nearly as good mental ones, and considering this monster is more than 3 times it's CR it should have all around stats in at least the 50s. Also, I feel like it should have more unique special abilities.

toapat
2012-08-07, 10:22 PM
Also, do you think you could increase his stats? because the original Pleroma had much better physical stats,and nearly as good mental ones, and considering this monster is more than 3 times it's CR it should have all around stats in at least the 50s. Also, I feel like it should have more unique special abilities.

you dont need a balance of stats to make an insanely powerful creature, the Psudonatural Template (Epic Levels Handbook) combined with the Paragon Template (Same book) can make a Rabbit able to solo Beholder Colonies with 9 hitdice (at this point it has at least 216 HP SR=45, DR 10/Epic and AC=57, and it isnt epic yet).

Fluffels the terrible has an Int of 17 (His Dex is at least 33)

demonman24
2012-08-07, 11:46 PM
So can anyone suggest a reasonable balance of stats?

demonman24
2012-08-07, 11:48 PM
Network/Debihuman, I'm looking at you.

demonman24
2012-08-08, 12:43 PM
Also, Network, Time Stop wouldn't be a solution against him, because he has Spell Stowaway (Time Stop).

demonman24
2012-08-08, 12:59 PM
Also, I think it would be more helpful if the monster had the Glory and Time domains, as it would then have Time Stop and Gate as domain spells, along with other helpful spells like True Strike, Moment of Presience, and Crown of Glory, which enhances it's Charisma, and therefore some of it's save DCs.

ThiagoMartell
2012-08-08, 01:01 PM
How are your players getting above level 20 if Pathfinder lacks rules for that?

toapat
2012-08-08, 01:03 PM
Also, I think it would be more helpful if the monster had the Glory and Time domains, as it would then have Time Stop and Gate as domain spells, along with other helpful spells like True Strike, Moment of Presience, and Crown of Glory, which enhances it's Charisma, and therefore some of it's save DCs.

the things that make gate broken for PCs are the same as make Gate broken for bosses. Gate to Elemental Plane of Negative Energy>Dimensional Anchor through gateway>Win

toapat
2012-08-08, 01:10 PM
How are your players getting above level 20 if Pathfinder lacks rules for that?

he asked for a 3.5 creature based off a PF creature

demonman24
2012-08-08, 01:36 PM
We decided to do it in 3.5 and convert the monster later.

demonman24
2012-08-08, 01:37 PM
But, back to the point, someone please respond to my previous and unanswered questions.

demonman24
2012-08-08, 02:07 PM
What about opening a gate to the negative energy plane and then casting dimensional anchor is overpowered? Can you explain in more detail?

toapat
2012-08-08, 02:32 PM
What about opening a gate to the negative energy plane and then casting dimensional anchor is overpowered? Can you explain in more detail?

If the creature that is teleported does not have Soul Sealing (one of the rarest things in the game) or is Undead, it suffers 1d4 negative levels a round without save.

the other option is the Elemental Plane of Water, as that is 20d6 crushing damage a round without save if you lack the aquatic subtype.

either way, Dimensional Anchor negates their ability to leave for 1 minute per caster level.

demonman24
2012-08-08, 03:36 PM
Now can we please get back to the issue of stats and domains?

demonman24
2012-08-08, 05:02 PM
Also, I read the profile of an epic level monster that had 60 levels in wizard, and it had waay more spell slots, is this for a particular reason? Like, are you treating it's caster level as 30 in each class for the purpose of determining spells slots?

Network
2012-08-08, 10:05 PM
It probably has more spell slots because of higher mental abilities. You do not automatically gain new spell slots after 20th level. Maybe I could add a ring of IX wizardry.


If the creature that is teleported does not have Soul Sealing (one of the rarest things in the game) or is Undead, it suffers 1d4 negative levels a round without save.

the other option is the Elemental Plane of Water, as that is 20d6 crushing damage a round without save if you lack the aquatic subtype.

either way, Dimensional Anchor negates their ability to leave for 1 minute per caster level.
...or Death Ward. Anyone without a wand of Death Ward after 13th level (when save-or-die begin to appear) is simply asking for trouble. I don't know how much a ring of Death Ward would cost, but that's definitely pre-epic.

Mind Blank protects against a couple of other powerful spells and has a reasonable duration to be used constantly.

A ring of universal energy immunity is also useful if you can buy for it, but this is less a must-have than the two spells. Implosion is for this reason the most powerful save-or-die.

And I just forgot. Antimagic Field is always useful. Diamorus will be weakened a lot if the players use this. Antimagic Aura (from Magic of Faerun) is even more so. I will add a couple of the second to his spell list.


Also, I think it would be more helpful if the monster had the Glory and Time domains, as it would then have Time Stop and Gate as domain spells, along with other helpful spells like True Strike, Moment of Presience, and Crown of Glory, which enhances it's Charisma, and therefore some of it's save DCs.
I'm looking at it. Crown of Glory seems an interesting spell, although a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma is not better than Eagle's Splendour, which is six levels lower and has the same duration. At least, the later can be cast more than once or twice a day.

demonman24
2012-08-08, 10:50 PM
Can you suggest a more powerful balance of stats? I mean, it is a CR 60 monster, also, since even 20 DR gods only have 50 caster levels, could you please integrate 20+ Divine Ranks? However much over twenty is up to your discretion.

Network
2012-08-08, 10:54 PM
His physical ability scores are very low, especially his strength. A +12 enhancement bonus from magic items would be enough for mental abilities and Dexterity. His Constitution score means he has less hp than intended for his CR, but I'm not too worried about this. I think he will survive long enough to cast a whole bunch of spells anyway.

demonman24
2012-08-08, 11:01 PM
OK, can you work on the Divine Ranks now? Thanks!

Network
2012-08-08, 11:22 PM
In that case, it would be a quasi-deity. Have you any idea of how (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) powerful (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality) a (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#controlCreatures) god (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife) can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#handOfDeath) be (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeDrain)?

demonman24
2012-08-09, 12:13 AM
Why would it be a quasi-deity if it has more than 20 ranks, and yes, I see now, but do you think you could do something to make it more powerful, like for example, have it rip some special abilities from deities with a no-save version of this spell.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Siphon_Power_(3.5e_Epic_Spell)

Maybe an unlimited version of the Alter Shape and Soul from the Protean-Above-All, linked here.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Protean-Above-All_(3.5e_Deity)#Attacks

Or if that's too extreme, perhaps just give it the ability to potentially take away players spellcasting or rage abilities permanently with this spell.

Debihuman
2012-08-09, 08:15 AM
Network/Debihuman, I'm looking at you.

Working on it. I'm going slow for now. He's not going to need better physical stats since I don't see him as a close physical fighter. Wait until I'm finished with him.

In this case, I'm playing a bit loose by what you mean by beatable. If you just want to kill him, I think your players will lose a lot by doing so. If you mean besting him and convincing him to help you...well you may want to look at what I'm doing.

Debby

demonman24
2012-08-09, 11:13 AM
Network? Your opinion on Siphon Power and Alter Shape and Soul?

toapat
2012-08-09, 12:54 PM
OK, can you work on the Divine Ranks now? Thanks!

so you ask for something beatable? Then demand something that has the inherent properties of:

All Powerful: Can cast any spell, with any metamagic, at will, as a free action.
Invincible: All actions against the Overdiety have no effect.


As far as im concerned, the Elemental Planes were rather poorly done, Deathward in my opinion would not survive the Elemental Plane of Negative energy, while the plane of fire is harmless to anything with fire immunity, instead of only to elementals with the fire type.

demonman24
2012-08-09, 01:13 PM
Sorry, I didn't realize how powerful deities were. Now can we please get back to the issue of a no-save Siphon power and ripping a version of the Protean-Above-All's Alter Shape and Soul ability with no limit how many extrordinary and supernatural/spell-like abilities you can gain from it, and whether or not it should be included or Siphon power should only be allowed for the purpose of taking away PC's or summoned monsters' abilities.

Siphon Power:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Siphon_Power_(3.5e_Epic_Spell)

Alter Shape and Soul:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Protean-Above-All_(3.5e_Deity)#Attacks

demonman24
2012-08-09, 04:17 PM
Network, I am once again looking at you.

Network
2012-08-09, 05:59 PM
If Polymorph isn't enough, what about this ability :
Polymorphism (Sp). As a free action, Diamorus can partially take the form of a new creature. His size does not change and his powers and ability scores remain the same, however he gains all Special Attacks and Special Qualities of the creature. He can also change into a creature with class levels. In any case, the creature he changes into can't have a divine rank or more than 15 HD. It also can't have more than one template applied to it.
If this ability is dispelled (caster level 60), Diamorus can reactivate it on his next turn.

I put some limits because otherwise he would change into a half-everything pseudonatural tarasque. You can increase the limits as you want, consider them as indications.


As far as im concerned, the Elemental Planes were rather poorly done, Deathward in my opinion would not survive the Elemental Plane of Negative energy, while the plane of fire is harmless to anything with fire immunity, instead of only to elementals with the fire type.
That's the rules. Screwing them to kill the PCs is never a good thing, especially if the use of Death Ward is intended.

toapat
2012-08-09, 06:18 PM
That's the rules. Screwing them to kill the PCs is never a good thing, especially if the use of Death Ward is intended.

its moreso that Death Ward seems to me to be a Positive energy effect, which can absorb a significant ammount of negative energy. Which total immersion in Negavite energy would overwhelm in a number of rounds.

i dont care if a red dragon is immune to fire, being dropped in fire/thrown into the sun should still strip away its flesh because we are talking about a world where the only existing thing is incredible heat and fire, beyond which nothing on the Prime Material Disk, The Great Wheel, or the Realm of Shadow can comprehend or compare.

Edit: you only need the Psuedonatural Paragon Tarrasque to kill the Time Dragon

demonman24
2012-08-09, 06:27 PM
And what is your opinion on the Siphon Power spell? Also, if you had to implement Alter Shape and Soul, what would be a reasonable limit on the amount of (Ex) and (Su) abilities allowed?

toapat
2012-08-09, 06:34 PM
And what is your opinion on the Siphon Power spell? Also, if you had to implement Alter Shape and Soul, what would be a reasonable limit on the amount of (Ex) and (Su) abilities allowed?

reasonable limit to Alter Shape and Soul:

Flaw: Corpse

Network
2012-08-09, 06:38 PM
And what is your opinion on the Siphon Power spell? Also, if you had to implement Alter Shape and Soul, what would be a reasonable limit on the amount of (Ex) and (Su) abilities allowed?

Siphon Power is more powerful than it seems. It shouldn't be permanent, but is otherwise fine.

Regeneration (∞) is only one ability away. The problem I have is not the number of abilities (you can generally only use one at a time), but how much infinitely powerful they may be. DR ∞/- is also only one ability, as well as ''You die'' or ''I win''.

demonman24
2012-08-09, 07:41 PM
Can you add the bonuses from the aeon subtype to the stat block you did on the second page of this thread?

Network
2012-08-09, 09:44 PM
I just added them now. I'm looking for something similar to Siphon Power, but did you hear about the spellthief base class?

demonman24
2012-08-09, 09:50 PM
No, I have not. What about it? Also, could you just substitute a non-limited version of Alter Shape and Soul for Polymorphism? Because as a responsible GM I would not transform my monster into some infinite DR, infinite ability score monstrosity.

Network
2012-08-09, 10:30 PM
This is a class from Complete Adventurers. A spellthief can steal a spell if he succeeds on a sneak attack. As he increase in level, he can steal resistances (destructive energy first, magic later), active spells, or spell-like abilities. Ok, he can't steal extraordinary or supernatural abilities, and he must first make a sneak attack, but the Polymorphism ability I just added would allow him to use these class features (including the ability to steal spells up to the seventh level).

Edit : looking to change Polymorphism.

demonman24
2012-08-09, 11:32 PM
Debihuman, are you finished with those stats yet?

Debihuman
2012-08-10, 03:58 AM
Getting there. I'm working on skills now. It's kinda complicated with all the bonuses. Plus there are synergy bonuses that have to be factored in. My math skills suck so it's going slow BUT it should be thorough. What do you think so far?

Debby

demonman24
2012-08-10, 10:56 AM
How can I have an opinion if I haven't seen it yet?

toapat
2012-08-10, 11:33 AM
How can I have an opinion if I haven't seen it yet?

you have outlined what you want pretty well, even if half of it contradicts the requirement of "Beatable"

The reason why nothing printed has a divine rank over 20 is because rank 21 has 3 perks:

Omnipotence
Omnicience
Invulnerability

demonman24
2012-08-10, 11:37 AM
I redacted the part about divine ranks once I figured out how powerful deities were. I asked that question because Debihuman is working on more balanaced stats for Diamorus because it's current ones are rather underpowered for a monster of more than 60 CR.

toapat
2012-08-10, 11:46 AM
I redacted the part about divine ranks once I figured out how powerful deities were. I asked that question because Debihuman is working on more balanaced stats for Diamorus because it's current ones are rather underpowered for a monster of more than 60 CR.

underpowered?

full Wizard and Cleric spellcasting, with attributes to match both, doesnt need that, when you can just Shapechange into a Tarrasque.

I dont even know of a non-magical beast which actually has a balanced stat array.

Network
2012-08-10, 01:50 PM
The reason why nothing printed has a divine rank over 20 is because rank 21 has 3 perks:

Omnipotence
Omnicience
Invulnerability
Yeah, yeah, the Immortal Handbook covert divine rank up to 200 (or 400, don't remember). As an overdeity, you gain access to cosmic abilities, and then transcendent abilities. Transcendent abilities allow you to change of class as a free action, to summon an exact copy of an attacker, or make you immune to any weapon of the Universe except one (why not a straight dagger?). You have immense powers, but you aren't omnipotent (you can only cast Wish as a swift action indefinitely), Omniscient (you just know all spells ever), or Invulnerable (weapons forged outside of the Multiverse affect you normally). A single transcendent ability worth 36 divine abilities. Due to the way it work in the Immortal Handbook, you must have a divine rank of at least 48 to have as much.

Debihuman
2012-08-10, 03:32 PM
How can I have an opinion if I haven't seen it yet?

It's in the spoiler on page two post 51: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13684570&postcount=51

Debby

demonman24
2012-08-10, 06:04 PM
I think it's pretty cool, but I would rather have him wield a staff, be a 60th level wizard/cleric gestalt class, and not be a deity, because I highly doubt 3 30th level player could beat a deity. However, I really like the mental stats, maybe increase the dexterity though.

demonman24
2012-08-10, 11:43 PM
Network, do you think you could add all of your changes to the outline now?

Debihuman
2012-08-11, 04:59 AM
I think it's pretty cool, but I would rather have him wield a staff, be a 60th level wizard/cleric gestalt class, and not be a deity, because I highly doubt 3 30th level player could beat a deity. However, I really like the mental stats, maybe increase the dexterity though.

Fair enough. I'm gonna finish up this deity first since I've gone this far with it. Yeah, I don't think three 30th level PCs are up to fighting a deity either.

What do you recommend I increase his Dex to? It's already Dex 33.

Debby

demonman24
2012-08-11, 11:41 PM
Anyone want to help me with the fluff? I'm thinking a fallen aeon vibe, maybe the Monad's paragon, who then stole the abilities of some deities, and overpowered the Monad, stealing it's powers as well. Anyone interested in fleshing that out?

demonman24
2012-08-12, 12:25 PM
Anyone at all?

demonman24
2012-08-12, 09:10 PM
Maybe because of some seminal event that caused it to question it's principles?

Network
2012-08-12, 09:18 PM
I just saw I gave him more than 10 bonus feats. But except for a few skills to choose, he is mostly done. Just give him an interesting spell list, and improvise his remaining skill points. He should have as much invocations as possible, because he has almost everything the SRD could give us on that school.

demonman24
2012-08-12, 09:57 PM
Network, do you have any outlines or ideas for fluff?

demonman24
2012-08-13, 11:25 AM
What are invocations?

toapat
2012-08-13, 11:44 AM
What are invocations?
one of several less broken magic systems in 3.5,

demonman24
2012-08-13, 12:13 PM
Yes, but what are they?

Network
2012-08-13, 12:56 PM
Sorry, my english's slipping. I suggest to use spells of the Conjuration school.

Technically, invocations are spell-like abilities of the warlock base class (from Complete Arcane). They can be used at will but he knows only a few of them. That's also how we call the Conjuration school in french.

demonman24
2012-08-13, 01:45 PM
Oh, okay then, so do you have any ideas for fluff?

demonman24
2012-08-15, 11:30 PM
I have been working on my own version of Diamorus, offer any criticism you see fit.


Diamorus the Uncaring
Male Aeon Wizard/Cleric Gestalt
True Neutral
Race: Aeon (Paragon of the Monad)
Size: Medium
Height: 8’0”
Weight: 120 lbs.
Skin: White
Eyes: Black
Hair: Black
Over the horizon, you see a figure in robes of the finest crystal, with skin paler than a white dwarf, long hair darker than space, and eyes blacker than black holes, yet somehow, speckled with stars.
Aeons have the following traits:
• Immunity to cold, poison, and critical hits.
• Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.
• Envisaging (Su) Aeons communicate wordlessly, almost incomprehensibly. Caring little for the wants and desires of other creatures, they have no need to engage in exchanges of dialogue. Instead, aeons mentally scan beings for their thoughts and intentions, and then retaliate with flashes of psychic projections that emit a single concept in response to whatever the other being was thinking. The flash is usually a combination of a visual and aural stimulation, which displays how the aeon perceives future events might work out. For instance, an aeon seeking to raze a city communicates this concept to non-aeons by sending them a vivid image of the city crumbling to ash. An aeon’s envisaging functions as a non-verbal form of telepathy. Aeons cannot read the thoughts of any creature immune to mind-affecting effects.
• Extension of All (Ex) Through an aeon’s connection to the multiverse, it gains access to strange and abstruse knowledge that filters through all existence. Much of the knowledge is timeless, comprised of events long past, present, and potentially even those yet to come. Aeons gain a racial bonus equal to half their racial Hit Dice on all Knowledge skill checks. This same connection also binds them to other aeons. As a result, they can communicate with each other freely, over great distances as if using telepathy. This ability also works across planes, albeit less effectively, allowing the communication of vague impressions or feelings, not specific details or sights. Due to the vast scope of the aeon race’s multiplanar concerns, though, even the most dire reports of a single aeon rarely inspire dramatic or immediate action.
• Void Form (Su) Though aeons aren’t incorporeal, their forms are only a semi-tangible manifestation of something greater. An aeon’s void form grants it a deflection bonus equal to 1/4 its Hit Dice (rounded down).
• Mage Armor (Su). As the spell, permanent.
• Magic Mastery (Ex). Diamorus can ignore XP cost of non-epic spells, up to 5,000 PX per spell.
• Sphere of Creation (Su). Three times per day, Diamorus can manifest a 2-foot-diameter sphere of white energy that hovers above his left hand. By concentrating, he can cause it to fly slowly at a speed of 10 feet per round. The sphere can travel in any direction, but must remain within 300 feet of him or it immediately dissipates. Wherever the sphere travels, it leaves behind a 5-foot-wide path of new matter, creating either new terrain (such as swamp, tundra, desert, or forest) or a 10-foot-square wall composed of a single natural substance (such as clay, wood, or stone). Any existing matter that comes in contact with the sphere is absorbed and incorporated into the new substance, with no save (only freedom, miracle, or wish can rescue creatures so trapped). The sphere is highly unstable and only lasts 1d4 minutes before exploding with a blinding flash. All creatures within 30 feet of the flash must make a DC 53 Fortitude save or be permanently blinded. The save DC is Charisma-based.
• Sphere of Oblivion (Su). Three times per day, Diamorus can manifest a 2-foot-diameter sphere of complete darkness that hovers above his right hand. The sphere is an empty void similar to a sphere of annihilation. Any matter (living or nonliving) that touches the sphere is sucked into the sphere and destroyed, with no save (only freedom, miracle, or wish can rescue creatures so trapped). Larger objects are destroyed at a rate of one 10-foot cube per round of contact with the sphere. By concentrating, Diamorus can cause the sphere to fly slowly at a speed of 10 feet per round. The sphere can travel in any direction, but must remain within 300 feet of him or it immediately dissipates. The sphere is highly unstable and only lasts 1d4 minutes before harmlessly imploding upon itself. Alternatively, Diamorus may hurl the sphere as a ranged touch attack (with a 10-foot range increment) against a single creature. When thrown in this manner, the sphere implodes immediately after the attack is resolved.
• Polymorphism (Sp). As a free action, Diamorus can partially take the form of a new creature. His size does not change and his powers and ability scores remain the same, however he gains all Special Attacks and Special Qualities of the creature. He can also change into a creature with class levels.
• Monandic Spellcraft (Ex) Diamorus gains a bonus to Spellcraft equal to his HD.
• Power of the Multiverse (Su) As Diamorus is damaged, the strength and knowledge of the multiverse flows through him. An ability he stole from the Monad, this power allows him to add his HD multiplied by the amount of damage he has taken divided by 50 to Spellcraft and Knowledge checks. He can also add his HD multiplied by the amount of damage he has taken divided by 300 to his stats. When he dies, he becomes one with the multiverse, and gains infinite skill checks and infinite ability scores, however, he cannot use these to influence the mortal world, only to create new spells or discover new things while he recuperates from his defeat. After a year and a day, Diamorus reappears at a location of his choosing, with all of his levels, stats, and skill totals doubled, however, if he is defeated more than once in a decade, he is sealed away for a century, and three clones, each individually half as powerful as he, but twice as strong when together, each representing his Good, Evil, and Neutral aspects respectively, guard the artifacts that can seal him away forever.

• +16 Strength

• +16 Dexterity

• +16 Constitution

• +16 Intelligence

• +16 Wisdom

• +16 Charisma





Cleric:
• Alignment Aura

• Spontaneous Casting (harm)

• Rebuke Undead (30x/day)

• High intelligence gains bonus spells daily

• Domain choices give additional abilities

Wizard
• Familiar / Alertness, etc.

• Bonus Feats (already included)

• High intelligence gains bonus spells daily


Class HP rolled
Level 1: Gestalt 8
Level 2: Gestalt 3
Level 3: Gestalt 2
Level 4: Gestalt 1 +1 to intelligence
Level 5: Gestalt 1
Level 6: Gestalt 7
Level 7: Gestalt 3
Level 8: Gestalt 4 +1 to intelligence
Level 9: Gestalt 6
Level 10: Gestalt 5
Level 11: Gestalt 8
Level 17: Gestalt 2 +1 to intelligence
Level 13: Gestalt 8
Level 14: Gestalt 8
Level 30: Gestalt 4
Level 16: Gestalt 8 +1 to intelligence
Level 17: Gestalt 2
Level 18: Gestalt 8
Level 19: Gestalt 7
Level 20: Gestalt 7 +1 to intelligence
Level 21: Gestalt 4
Level 22: Gestalt 4
Level 23: Gestalt 1
Level 24: Gestalt 1 +1 to intelligence
Level 25: Gestalt 1
Level 26: Gestalt 2
Level 27: Gestalt 1
Level 28: Gestalt 8 +1 to intelligence
Level 29: Gestalt 8
Level 30: Gestalt 2
Level 31: Gestalt 5
Level 32: Gestalt 8 +1 to intelligence
Level 33: Gestalt 8
Level 34: Gestalt 5
Level 35: Gestalt 2
Level 36: Gestalt 2 +1 to intelligence
Level 37: Gestalt 4
Level 38: Gestalt 3
Level 39: Gestalt 2
Level 40: Gestalt 5 +1 to intelligence
Level 41: Gestalt 4
Level 42: Gestalt 2
Level 43: Gestalt 5
Level 44: Gestalt 4 +1 to intelligence
Level 45: Gestalt 8
Level 46: Gestalt 1
Level 47: Gestalt 2
Level 48: Gestalt 7 +1 to intelligence
Level 49: Gestalt 7
Level 50: Gestalt 7
Level 51: Gestalt 3
Level 52: Gestalt 7 +1 to intelligence
Level 53: Gestalt 4
Level 54: Gestalt 6
Level 55: Gestalt 1
Level 56: Gestalt 8 +1 to intelligence
Level 57: Gestalt 2
Level 58: Gestalt 2
Level 59: Gestalt 8
Level 60: Gestalt 5 +1 to intelligence


Strength 44 (+17)
Dexterity 44 (+17)
Constitution 44 (+17)
Intelligence 70 (+30)
Wisdom 44 (+17)
Charisma 44 (+17)


Gestalt combination: Cleric Wizard
Domains: Time, Glory, Luck
Energy: Negative [Harmful / Rebukes Undead]
Total Hit Points: 1,000
Speed: 60 feet
Armor Class: 55 = 10+17[dexterity],+13[natural],+15[void form]
Touch AC: 42
Flat-footed: 38
Initiative modifier: +17 = +17 [dexterity]
Fortitude save: +44 = 17 [base] +20 [epic] +17 [constitution]
Reflex save: +38 = 6 [base] +20 [epic] +17 [dexterity]
Will save: +44 = 17 [base] +20 [epic] +17 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +67/+62/+57 = 30 [base] +20 [epic] +17 [strength]
Attack (unarmed): +67/+62/+57 = 30 [base] +20 [epic] +17 [strength]
Attack (missile): +67/+62/+57 = 30 [base] +20 [epic] +17 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +67/+62/+57 = 30 [base] +20 [epic] +17 [strength]
Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag: 932 lb. or less
933-1864 lb.
1865-2800 lb.
2800 lb.
5600 lb.
14000 lb.
Languages:All
Familiar: Paraceletus
Feats:
Endurance
Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor [epic]
Craft Epic Staff [epic]
Craft Epic Wondrous Item [epic]
Improved Wizard Spell Capacity [epic] x11
Improved Metamagic [epic] x4
Multispell [epic] x5
Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Epic Spell Penetration
Ignore Material Components
Extend Spell
Improved Contingency
Spell Stowaway (Time Stop)
Divine Metamagic
Spontaneous Domain Access (Time)
Spontaneous Domain Access (Luck)
Bonus Domain (Luck)
Craft Construct
Forge Ring
Scribe Scroll [free to wizard]
Empower Spell
Enlarge Spell
Extend Spell
Heighten Spell
Maximize Spell
Intensify Spell
Quicken Spell
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Spellcasting Prodigy [intelligence]
Sudden Empower
Sudden Extend
Sudden Maximize
Sudden Still
Enduring Life
Lasting Life
Traits:
Skill Name Key
Ability Skill
Modifier Ability
Modifier Ranks Misc.
Modifier
Appraise Int 96 = +30 +63 +3 [skill focus]
Balance Dex* 17 = +17
Bluff Cha 75 = +17 +63
Climb Str* 17 = +17
Concentration Con 78 = +17 +63 +3 [skill focus]
Craft_1 Int 123 = +30+63+30
Craft_2 Int 123 = +30+63+30
Craft_3 Int 123= +30+63+30
Diplomacy Cha 79 = +17 +63 +2 [bluff] +2 [Knowledge, nobility]
Disguise Cha 17 = +17
Escape Artist Dex* 17 = +17
Forgery Int 30 = +30
Gather Information Cha 19 = +17 +2 [know local]
Heal Wis 17 = +17
Hide Dex* 17 = +17
Intimidate Cha 14 = +17 +2 [bluff]
Jump Str* 17 = +17
Knowledge (arcana) Int 123 = +30 +63 +30
Knowledge (architecture) Int 123 = +30 +63 +30
Knowledge (dungeoneering) Int 123 = +30 +63 +30
Knowledge (geography) Int 123 = +30 +63 +30
Knowledge (history) Int 123 = +30 +63 +30
Knowledge (local) Int 123 = +30 +63 +30
Knowledge (nature) Int 123 = +30 +63 +30
Knowledge (nobility) Int 123 = +30 +63 +30
Knowledge (religion) Int 123 = +30 +63 +30
Knowledge (planes) Int 123 = +30 +63 +30
Listen Wis 17 = +17
Move Silently Dex* 17 = +17
Perform_1 Cha 17 = +17
Perform_2 Cha 17 = +17
Perform_3 Cha 17 = +17
Perform_4 Cha 17 = +17
Perform_5 Cha 17 = +17
Profession Wis 75 = +17 +63
Ride Dex 17 = +17
Search Int 93 = +30 +63
Sense Motive Wis 23 = +17 +11
Spellcraft Int 158 = +30 +63 +60 +2 [Knowledge, arcane] +3 [skill focus]
Spot Wis 17 = +17
Survival Wis 17 = +17
Swim Str** 17 = +17
Use Rope Dex 17 = +17
* = check penalty for wearing armor
This character also has 63 ranks in Speak Languages.
Bluff >=5 ranks gives +2 on disguise checks to act in character.
Know Architecture >=5 ranks gives +2 on search checks for secret doors.
Know Dungeoneering >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks underground.
Know Geography >=5 ranks gives +2 on checks to avoid getting lost or into hazards.
Know Nature >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks above ground.
Know Religion >=5 ranks gives +2 on turn/rebuke the undead.
Know Planes >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks on other planes.
Search >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks while tracking.
Zero-level Cleric spells: 6 per day

First-level Cleric spells: 13 (5+8) per day +1 from a domain:

Second-level Cleric spells: 13 (5+8) per day +1 from a domain:

Third-level Cleric spells: 13 (5+8) per day +1 from a domain:

Fourth-level Cleric spells: 13 (5+8) per day +1 from a domain:

Fifth-level Cleric spells: 17 (5+7) per day +1 from a domain:

Sixth-level Cleric spells: 11 (4+7) per day +1 from a domain:

Seventh-level Cleric spells: 11 (4+7) per day +1 from a domain:

Eighth-level Cleric spells: 11 (4+7) per day +1 from a domain:

Ninth-level Cleric spells: 10 (4+6) per day +1 from a domain:

Zero-level Wizard spells: 4 per day

First-level Wizard spells: 17 (4+8) per day

Second-level Wizard spells: 17 (4+8) per day

Third-level Wizard spells: 11 (4+7) per day

Fourth-level Wizard spells: 11 (4+7) per day

Fifth-level Wizard spells: 11 (4+7) per day

Sixth-level Wizard spells: 11 (4+7) per day

Seventh-level Wizard spells: 10 (4+6) per day

Eighth-level Wizard spells: 10 (4+6) per day

Ninth-level Wizard spells: 10 (4+6) per day

Improved Wizard Spell Capacity x11 with 70 Intelligence:
Recommended distribution:
Level 10 spells: 6 (1+5)per day
Level 11 spells: 6 (1+5)per day
Level 17 spells: 6 (1+5)per day
Level 13 spells: 6 (1+5)per day
Level 14 spells: 5 (1+4)per day
Level 15 spells: 5 (1+4)per day
Level 16 spells: 5 (1+4)per day
Level 17 spells: 5 (1+4)per day
Level 18 spells: 4 (1+3)per day
Level 19 spells: 4 (1+3)per day
Level 20 spells: 4 (1+3)per day

Debihuman
2012-08-16, 08:42 AM
I have been working on my own version of Diamorus, offer any criticism you see fit.

Technically at 8'6'' he's not Medium. 8 feet is the maximum height for a Medium creature or the minimum height for a Large creature. S

The wall of text without breaks or formatting makes it hard to read.

Why does he have a weight of 0 lbs.?

What divine rank does he has and what are his salient abilities?

Why did you give him +15 deflection bonus from Voidform when he could have a +17 deflection bonus (equal to his charisma bonus)? These deflection bonuses do not stack so he should use the better of the two.

The following abilities aren't standard salient abilities so I'm not sure how he got them.



• Mage Armor (Su). As the spell, permanent.

• Magic Mastery (Ex). Diamorus can ignore XP cost of non-epic spells, up to 5,000 PX per spell.

• Sphere of Creation (Su). Three times per day, Diamorus can manifest a 2-foot-diameter sphere of white energy that hovers above his left hand. By concentrating, he can cause it to fly slowly at a speed of 10 feet per round. The sphere can travel in any direction, but must remain within 300 feet of him or it immediately dissipates. Wherever the sphere travels, it leaves behind a 5-foot-wide path of new matter, creating either new terrain (such as swamp, tundra, desert, or forest) or a 10-foot-square wall composed of a single natural substance (such as clay, wood, or stone). Any existing matter that comes in contact with the sphere is absorbed and incorporated into the new substance, with no save (only freedom, miracle, or wish can rescue creatures so trapped). The sphere is highly unstable and only lasts 1d4 minutes before exploding with a blinding flash. All creatures within 30 feet of the flash must make a DC 53 Fortitude save or be permanently blinded. The save DC is Charisma-based.

• Sphere of Oblivion (Su). Three times per day, Diamorus can manifest a 2-foot-diameter sphere of complete darkness that hovers above his right hand. The sphere is an empty void similar to a sphere of annihilation. Any matter (living or nonliving) that touches the sphere is sucked into the sphere and destroyed, with no save (only freedom, miracle, or wish can rescue creatures so trapped). Larger objects are destroyed at a rate of one 10-foot cube per round of contact with the sphere. By concentrating, Diamorus can cause the sphere to fly slowly at a speed of 10 feet per round. The sphere can travel in any direction, but must remain within 300 feet of him or it immediately dissipates. The sphere is highly unstable and only lasts 1d4 minutes before harmlessly imploding upon itself. Alternatively, Diamorus may hurl the sphere as a ranged touch attack (with a 10-foot range increment) against a single creature. When thrown in this manner, the sphere implodes immediately after the attack is resolved.

• Polymorphism (Sp). As a free action, Diamorus can partially take the form of a new creature. His size does not change and his powers and ability scores remain the same, however he gains all Special Attacks and Special Qualities of the creature. He can also change into a creature with class levels.

• Monandic Spellcraft (Ex) Diamorus gains a bonus to Spellcraft equal to his HD.

• Power of the Multiverse (Su) As Diamorus is damaged, the strength and knowledge of the multiverse flows through him. An ability he stole from the Monad, this power allows him to add his HD multiplied by the amount of damage he has taken divided by 50 to Spellcraft and Knowledge checks. He can also add his HD multiplied by the amount of damage he has taken divided by 300 to his stats. When he dies, he becomes one with the multiverse, and gains infinite skill checks and infinite ability scores, however, he cannot use these to influence the mortal world, only to create new spells or discover new things while he recuperates from his defeat. After a year and a day, Diamorus reappears at a location of his choosing, with all of his levels, stats, and skill totals doubled, however, if he is defeated more than once in a decade, he is sealed away for a century, and three clones, each individually half as powerful as he, but twice as strong when together, each representing his Good, Evil, and Neutral aspects respectively, guard the artifacts that can seal him away forever.

You do not roll for deity hit points, they automatically get maximum hit points.

He should only have the number of feats based on his Hit Dice. If he has 60 HD, then he should have 21 feats.

Debby

Network
2012-08-16, 11:20 AM
Divine rank is way overpowered. I think the CR of a god may as well increase by +10 per rank (but this is understated for greater deities, who are invincible). Something that can challenge a god has way more levels than the god himself.


The following abilities aren't standard salient abilities so I'm not sure how he got them.
Maybe he's in fact reptilian and personally know a sarrukh? :smalltongue:

demonman24
2012-08-16, 12:05 PM
Well, he's the highest ranking aeon times a bajillion, so he has aeon abilities, some natural ones I threw in, and the ones he stolen from the Monad (Monandic Spellcraft, Power of the Multiverse) and the Protean-Above-All (Polymorphism), and he took the insane amount of feats from both deities. Also, I'm not using deity rules. So his feats are based on his class levels.

demonman24
2012-08-16, 12:06 PM
Long story short, he's not a god, but he's stolen feats and abilities from deities using Siphon Power.

demonman24
2012-08-16, 12:30 PM
Network, what's your opinion on my build?

Network
2012-08-16, 01:38 PM
You could reduce the amount of lines. You don't have to give all modifiers for all skills, especially if he have no rank in them (you can just write ''Untrained X-based Skills''). I am also not sure why you give him so many language, he fulfil the prerequisites of the Polyglot epic feat and you may as well give him a permanent Tongue effect. Languages : All would be appropriate.

AC is miscalculated. It should be 55, Touch 27, Flat-footed 38.


• +16 Strength

• +16 Dexterity

• +16 Constitution

• +16 Intelligence

• +16 Wisdom

• +16 Charisma
Are they enhancement bonuses? Physical abilities should be, and maybe mental ones too.

Why is he so tall? And so light? At least he won't break the floor (or cloud, as the case may be), but still...

demonman24
2012-08-16, 01:50 PM
He's super tall and light because he's a super-being, and therefore needs to be intimidating, and all of those stats are inherent bonuses from being the Monad's Paragon. Do you have any other critiques, perhaps on the balance of his powers?

demonman24
2012-08-16, 04:33 PM
Does anyone have any balance ideas? Is it too powerful? Not powerful enough?

demonman24
2012-08-16, 05:36 PM
Network, Toapat, looking to you for criticisms on power balance, is he too strong or too weak?

toapat
2012-08-16, 09:17 PM
Network, Toapat, looking to you for criticisms on power balance, is he too strong or too weak?

I stopped caring a while ago, i made the original Diamorus as a quick solution, took the flavor of the Aeons, and that of overdieties, and slapped them together to make a pretty hard opponent, who can still be killed by a lvl 15.

demonman24
2012-08-16, 10:16 PM
Network, your opinion on the balance of his powers and feats?

Debihuman
2012-08-16, 10:25 PM
Well, he's the highest ranking aeon times a bajillion, so he has aeon abilities, some natural ones I threw in, and the ones he stolen from the Monad (Monandic Spellcraft, Power of the Multiverse) and the Protean-Above-All (Polymorphism), and he took the insane amount of feats from both deities. Also, I'm not using deity rules. So his feats are based on his class levels.

So he's supposed to be an over-the-top creation. Ya got me there. I have no idea how to balance this one for what you are trying to do.

The problem is trying to blend something for Pathfinder with something for 3.5 and you're getting a mash up of powers and abilities that make it impossible to judge. Taking an "insane" number of feats is a poor decision in my humble opinion since he doesn't have the HD to support them. Feats are always based on HD plus bonus feats (no more than 2 or it needs another HD) plus whatever feats are gained through classes and templates.

In this case, you say you want something to challenge your players at level 30, but then you create this hot mess. I'm totally confused as to what you are trying to do and what it is you really want.

Debby

demonman24
2012-08-16, 10:47 PM
Well, it's three 30th level players, so wouldn't it have to be CR 90 to challenge them? And what do you mean by, "hot mess"?

toapat
2012-08-16, 10:56 PM
Well, it's three 30th level players, so wouldn't it have to be CR 90 to challenge them? And what do you mean by, "hot mess"?

CR doesnt scale cleanly, A rust monster is a vastly more challenging opponent for paladins and fighters then for a monk 5 levels lower, because the paladin/fighter has to risk arms and armor, where as the monk just kicks it in the face.

CR 90 means it holds over a 99% chance of soundly trouncing the great wyrm time dragon, repeatedly and consistently. A creature that has At will Quickened Empowered Maximized Time stop.

the CR challenge for a level 30 Ranger, Rogue, and Wizard would have to be a high Spell resistance CR 35 with collossal +size, good saves, and crap ac.

TuggyNE
2012-08-16, 11:06 PM
Well, it's three 30th level players, so wouldn't it have to be CR 90 to challenge them? And what do you mean by, "hot mess"?

No, not at all. CR is based on a four-man party; furthermore, it assumes that doubling power increases CR by 2. An ordinary fight for 3 30ths would therefore be CR 29 or so; a tougher fight might go up to 31, 33, or even 35. CR 90 against that party would be absurd and pointless (assuming accurate CR, it would be approximately the equivalent of a billion CR 30 fights all jammed together).

demonman24
2012-08-16, 11:25 PM
How is that, when the monster's CR increases by one per level once it's class levels areequal to it's HD?

toapat
2012-08-16, 11:51 PM
How is that, when the monster's CR increases by one per level once it's class levels areequal to it's HD?

In PF CR increases with level because PF is better balanced the 3.5

In 3.5 the best CR/Level is 1/2, and that as far as i know can only be obtained with templates, it more typically is 1 CR/3 Levels because mobs are held to the same standards as PCs for feats.

demonman24
2012-08-17, 12:09 AM
So then how would Diamorus be CR 60, why not CR 30, if you're following the rules?

toapat
2012-08-17, 12:26 AM
So then how would Diamorus be CR 60, why not CR 30, if you're following the rules?

CR is balanced to a party where the Wizard isnt preping hourly Deus Ex Machina. if it was, nothing would exceed CR 15, because at that level Wizards unlock a spell that can manifest an elemental plane at a chosen location.

also, Caster Class levels scale 1:1 as far as homebrew is concerned

Vadskye
2012-08-17, 12:37 AM
In 3.5 the best CR/Level is 1/2, and that as far as i know can only be obtained with templates, it more typically is 1 CR/3 Levels because mobs are held to the same standards as PCs for feats.

Not exactly. CR is not really tied to HD or level at all for monsters in 3.5. You're talking about the CR increase as you add racial HD to an existing creature, which is true, but the CR of a base creature has no relationship to its HD. Outsiders typically have CR approximately equal to their HD, while undead and animals can have a CR well below half their HD. It all depends, is the short answer.

Also, demonman, I think you should take a good long read through the Dungeon Master's Guide. Particularly the section about encounters (starts at p. 48).

Debihuman
2012-08-17, 08:41 AM
There is no exact mathematical formula for assessing CR, but this works fairly well:

Vorpal Tribble’s CR estimator

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.

BTW, I've made significant changes to Diamorus on page 2. It's getting there. I had a lot of modifiers to add to all sorts of lines: AC, Attacks, Saves, Skills are updated now. It's still not quite complete. I am considering changing the description and keeping just the name.

Debby

toapat
2012-08-17, 09:36 AM
Vorpal Tribble’s CR estimator

I wasnt refferencing Vorpal's CR calculator, because that wasnt an official one, its also the best way to calculate CR

Debihuman
2012-08-17, 10:54 AM
Well, it's three 30th level players, so wouldn't it have to be CR 90 to challenge them? And what do you mean by, "hot mess"?

Three 30th level PCs are less than CR 30. CR 30 is four 30th level PCs.

See this:

Hot mess = If you want a CR 30 creature and give it the powers of a CR 60 creature, it's THAT unbalanced.

The deity that I'm working on is at least CR 60 (although I'm not sure how you account for CR where deities are concerned). Next, I'm gonna add some Plemora traits since that's what you seem to want.

I still have to make some adjustments to account for the difference in stats. That is backstory and I have to come up with something that seems at least vaguely plausible.

Debby

demonman24
2012-08-17, 11:50 AM
I'm sorry, I think the CR scaling in Pathfinder is different, as in, the CR has to be equal to the total level of the party to be challenging to them, not jst the average level of a 4 man party.

Debihuman
2012-08-17, 01:04 PM
I'm sorry, I think the CR scaling in Pathfinder is different, as in, the CR has to be equal to the total level of the party to be challenging to them, not jst the average level of a 4 man party.

In Pathfinder CR should scale with APL (Average Party Level). See page 397 Core Rulebook and is still based on 4 characters.

With 3 players you have APL-1. That means that a CR 29 would be challenge but it still might be too difficult as this is still a guideline.

Debby

demonman24
2012-08-17, 01:05 PM
Is that accurate, or am I mistaken?

Debihuman
2012-08-17, 01:08 PM
You can look it it up in the book like I did. I even gave you the page number.

Debby

Vadskye
2012-08-17, 01:22 PM
Or here, let me Google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pathfinder+challenge+rating).

demonman24
2012-08-17, 01:34 PM
Sorry, my post must have been out of sync, I didn't see your post.

demonman24
2012-08-17, 01:58 PM
Ok, I followed the Vorpal Tribble formula, and I came up with a CR of approximately 33. This is with an average HP of 600, divided by 12, equaling 50, 20 points of AC above 10, for plus 4, plus 7 for special abilities, plus 8 for 2 resistances and 3 immunities, and minus 3 for 3 weaknesses, plus 40 for 80 bonus feats, which equals 108. Divided by 3 this equals 32 and 2 thirds, or approximately 36.

Network
2012-08-17, 03:14 PM
Demonman24 : If Debihuman come with a CR of 33 following the Vorpal's CR calculator, Diamorus is probably right and doesn't need more bonuses.

Toapat :

CR 90 means it holds over a 99% chance of soundly trouncing the great wyrm time dragon, repeatedly and consistently. A creature that has At will Quickened Empowered Maximized Time stop.

the CR challenge for a level 30 Ranger, Rogue, and Wizard would have to be a high Spell resistance CR 35 with collossal +size, good saves, and crap ac.
This is not the way it work. You're saying CR 90>CR 90, which make no mathematical sense. The PCs fight monsters of their CR because they are supposed to make 4 fights a day. Because you fight only one boss a day, it has a CR 3 points higher than the level of the party.

In PF CR increases with level because PF is better balanced the 3.5

In 3.5 the best CR/Level is 1/2, and that as far as i know can only be obtained with templates, it more typically is 1 CR/3 Levels because mobs are held to the same standards as PCs for feats.
This is the same formula than in Pathfinder. Pathfinder only changed the CR measurement, but not calculation. A 20th level human fighter has a CR 20 in both 3.5 and Pathfinder, but the last one make him more powerful (but he needs it, his enemies are as well).

In 3.5, you forgot calculation is different for monsters and characters. The later CR is strictly equal to level, but its weird for the former.

Finally, I would add that your posts remind me of a joke I made not too long ago : the wizard is that powerful, even a gestalt wizard only has a chance if he has at least 6 other classes.

demonman24
2012-08-17, 03:24 PM
How is a gestalt wizard less powerful than a normal one?

toapat
2012-08-17, 06:54 PM
Toapat :

I didnt check the actual CR of the time dragon, i thought the thing was said to be more accurately a CR 66

I was only refferencing standards within 3.5

Debihuman
2012-08-18, 11:14 AM
I'm giving up on the deity on page 2. It's bloated and disgustingly overpowered. I don't think a Pleroma (or any Aeon) makes for a decent deity since by their very nature, they do not care about their worshipers and wouldn't be bothered to grant them spells. I've been trying to incorporate as many ideas as I could with Diamorus, but there is no way it's possible for three 30-level PCs to defeat him.

You can't' take a 24 HD monster at CR 20, give him 20 levels of both Wizard and Cleric Classes and then give him Divine Rank 20 and then expect to have a CR 30 deity. Something has to give.

Debby

demonman24
2012-08-18, 08:50 PM
So Debihuman, did you get a CR of 36 as well using Vorpal Tribble's formula?

Debihuman
2012-08-18, 11:13 PM
I get CR 59 for my version.

Here's the math:

1. 680 hit points divided by 6.5 = 104
2. AC is 99 so that is worth 17
3. Special attacks: his 27 spell-like abilities are worth 5 points, turn undead, spells, energy touch for a total of 8
4.Special qualities: 20 salient abilities; about 15 divine characteristics characteristics and 11 racial special qualities for 46 total
5. 2 (like you I gave him spell mastery as his bonus feats and as I'd originally forgotten about that, it's now factored in)

104 + 17 +8 + 46 + 2 = 177 divided by 3 = CR 59.

demonman24
2012-08-18, 11:20 PM
I mean't the version I posted on page four, not Network's or your's, and you can disregard the DR feat x20 and the Great Intelligence x20, there was no other way to increase it's stats in the interface I was using. Sorry, for the confusion! There also wasn't an option for HD above 25, so I assumed by the options there were that the amount you divide the total HP increases by .5 per 5 HD which led me to the conclusion that I should divided Diamorus' total HPof 600 by 12, which gave me 50.

Debihuman
2012-08-19, 04:48 AM
Then you should have said so. You asked me what I got. Creatures with more than 25 hit points still use 6.5. It doesn't progress.

1. 1,000 hit point is what you have listed in your text. However, it seems like it should have 600 so 600/6.5 = 92
2. AC 40 =6
3. Special Attacks are spells and turn undead (not sure if it has spell-like abilities since you didn't list them) so I'll give you 2.
4. Special Qualities: 18
5. It should only have 4 bonus feats (a total of 25 feats including the bonus feats and you have many more listed) : 2.

92 + 6 + 2 +18 +2 = 120/3= 40.

Network already put a CR of 61(see post 49) on his entry.

Debby

demonman24
2012-08-19, 11:32 AM
Okay, my players might have to level up a bit more before they can fight him, but once they reach level 40, I think they'll be ready.

demonman24
2012-08-19, 12:34 PM
How does Diamorus have 18 special qualities?

Debihuman
2012-08-19, 02:00 PM
You forgot darkvision 60 ft. which is an Outsider trait and each immunity counts as two. It should be 19.

• Immunity to cold
•Immunity to, poison
•Immunity critical hits
• Resistance to electricity 10
•Resistance to fire 10.
• Envisaging (Su)
• Extension of All (Ex)
• Void Form (Su)
• Mage Armor (Su). As the spell, permanent.
• Magic Mastery (Ex).
• Sphere of Creation (Su).
• Sphere of Oblivion (Su).
• Polymorphism (Sp).
• Monandic Spellcraft (Ex)
• Power of the Multiverse (Su)
•Darkvision (added)

Debby

demonman24
2012-08-19, 02:09 PM
OK, I added it all up again, and this time I included the current and all future bonus feats as a special quality and I got a CR of about 40. So my thought right now is that my players will get stomped by him once,and then spend a time getting powerful enough to beat him. Then, using Power of the Multiverse he regenerates twice as powerful, they spend a long time getting good enough to beat him, then they beat him, his alignment aspects rise up, they get twice as powerful for a third time in order to beat his aspects, which are twice as powerful as he was the last time they fought him when they are together, and each is as powerful as the original version of him when apart. So they kill the aspects, get the artifacts needed to seal him away permanently, and the world is safe.

Vadskye
2012-08-19, 05:38 PM
OK, I added it all up again, and this time I included the current and all future bonus feats as a special quality and I got a CR of about 40. So my thought right now is that my players will get stomped by him once,and then spend a time getting powerful enough to beat him. Then, using Power of the Multiverse he regenerates twice as powerful, they spend a long time getting good enough to beat him, then they beat him, his alignment aspects rise up, they get twice as powerful for a third time in order to beat his aspects, which are twice as powerful as he was the last time they fought him when they are together, and each is as powerful as the original version of him when apart. So they kill the aspects, get the artifacts needed to seal him away permanently, and the world is safe.

So you're going to bait and switch your players... twice? And they'll be soundly defeated in a big boss fight that they will have a lot riding on... twice. :smallconfused:

demonman24
2012-08-19, 06:52 PM
Maybe just once, I don't have it all nailed down yet. They'll probably only be trounced once, during which time they'll be able to learn the BBEG's weaknesses and such. Then the next time after he comes back twice as powerful they'll be prepared, and the time after that they will probably curb stomp his shattered Good, Evil, and Neutral aspects, (which are individually only as powerful as his original,but are twice as powerful as he was the last time when together)that are guarding the artifacts that will seal him away.

demonman24
2012-08-22, 04:16 PM
Anybody have any other things they'd like to add, or is this thread pretty much done?