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Scowling Dragon
2012-07-30, 09:57 PM
After Re-watching the Superhero Cartoons (From BTAS to Justice League Unlimited) I remembered how GOOD they where.

And I kinda like them more then comic books today.

The series is internally consistent, has funs stories, that have their quiet/ serious moments (Especially BTAS) with good looking and smooth animation and most importantly:

Its ENDED.

Because of that wonderful fact, there where no reboots, no continuity messes, things where internally consistent (After some slight adjustments needed to be made) and everything ended up wrapped up in a awesome looking bow.

In my opinion: The best of the best of the Superhero Genre.

Dienekes
2012-07-30, 10:19 PM
Ehh, ok.

Personally, I think comics have made themselves into what I call a "soft ending" series. Things like Conan and Sherlock Holmes have soft endings. There is always room for another Conan or Holmes story, and even after the first authors have stopped writing them someone else can take up the mantle and just keep going.

There are good things and bad things with this method of writing. The good thing, is that there is always another adventure with Sherlock Holmes I haven't read. The bad is that they are not all of the same quality, and a lot of the finer details get lost, forgotten, or destroyed.

So yes, if you wanted a set continuous storyline with a definitive beginning and end, it is hard (if not impossible) to top the animated series. But if you want more Batman stories after you watched all of BTAS, well there is none. If you want more Batman for the comics, I have about 70 years worth of stories I can pick and choose from to get the best entertainment.

Now personally, I prefer picking and choosing the best of the best of comics to get my super hero fix, but after that? Diniverse all the way, though admittedly the internal consistency never really bothered me. I just wanted to see an interesting story with these super heroes, and Diniverse delivers.

Hopeless
2012-07-31, 02:59 AM
Ehh, ok.
So yes, if you wanted a set continuous storyline with a definitive beginning and end, it is hard (if not impossible) to top the animated series. But if you want more Batman stories after you watched all of BTAS, well there is none. If you want more Batman for the comics, I have about 70 years worth of stories I can pick and choose from to get the best entertainment.

Now personally, I prefer picking and choosing the best of the best of comics to get my super hero fix, but after that? Diniverse all the way, though admittedly the internal consistency never really bothered me. I just wanted to see an interesting story with these super heroes, and Diniverse delivers.

They made Batman movies that seem an extension of the BTAS including Mask of the Phantasm.
When i first looked at this thread i assumed it was about a tv series version rather than the animated series.
Now if only they'd release the last 2 seasons of BTAS and the JLU on region 2!

MLai
2012-07-31, 04:29 AM
I'm a fan of the finite type of storyline, where a story has a beginning, middle, and END. I think it's a better form of storytelling. AFAIK, all good stories are built this way, and IMO run-on stories like American comics tell terrible stories.

All manga, even the most famous ones like DBZ, eventually end. Naruto and Bleach will eventually end. The authors may go on to tell the same story again with a different skin and different characters, but that doesn't change the fact that the previous one has ended. Even myth cycles (Greek, Norse, Celtic etc) understand that heroes' tales have a beginning and an ending.

Selrahc
2012-07-31, 05:01 AM
Personally, I think comics have made themselves into what I call a "soft ending" series. Things like Conan and Sherlock Holmes have soft endings. There is always room for another Conan or Holmes story, and even after the first authors have stopped writing them someone else can take up the mantle and just keep going.


This.

You get a lot of fairly short internally consistent stories in comics. Within the confines of limited run series, or over the arc of a long running writers tenure you even get internally consistent and exciting longer story arcs. It's just that when the story ends, it doesn't necessarily end forever. In 5 or 10 or 20 years time, people might come back and tell new stories with the same characters in different ways.



and IMO run-on stories like American comics tell terrible stories.

They tell some really great stories(and some really terrible ones, and a lot of middling ones too, the same as Manga). They just take place within an awkward narrative framework. "The Avengers" isn't a story. It's a setting within which stories are told. You don't need to read it from issue 1. Jump on at the start of an arc, and in most cases if the author has done their job right then the story told in that arc will be a convincing narrative without much need for external baggage.



Even myth cycles (Greek, Norse, Celtic etc) understand that heroes' tales have a beginning and an ending.

Except Greek myth cycles didn't. You had individual heroes completing stories. But then the Gods crop up everywhere and don't have an end in sight. Zeus has a prophecised "Will be killed by his own son" thing that just gets left hanging. Characters like Hercules who have their entire story told and wrapped up in a narrative bow get brought into other myths like the Argonauts because they're enjoyable characters. The greek myth cycle acts a lot like a shared continuity superhero verse, with the Gods taking the roles of the big name characters who can't ever be allowed to permanently die or change too much, while the heroes take the roles of lesser characters who get limited run series which interact with the big names and share a universe but act within a more traditional narrative arc.

MLai
2012-07-31, 05:40 AM
The problem is that Superman doesn't stay in the bg and just ex machina like Zeus, no Superman must have his own book, his own continuing narrative. And that's the problem; he won't end but he also won't stay away.

Yes Hercules guest-starred. I don't have a problem with guest-starring, or cross-overing. A hero can do that but still have his main storyline develop and end. Were you implying that Herc joined the Argonauts after his death and ascension? AFAIK, he did the Argo stint while alive, before he married the wife who mistakenly poisoned and killed him.

And yes that's a good way to put it: "It can tell good stories, but it does so in an awkward narrative structure." I guess I can liken it to anime filler: The filler can be a good stand-alone story, but it will give exactly zilch character development for the main character.

I never met an anime filler I didn't hate.

Hopeless
2012-07-31, 06:00 AM
I never met an anime filler I didn't hate.

So have you ever watched Fairy Tail the anime series?

Curious to know if that counts!

In regards to Superman I have often wondered what would happen if they simply had the original Kal-L turn up before the second world war and after a long career he eventually married and his son took up his father's mantle becoming the silver age Superman until he himself settled down and married and his son eventually assumed the mantle whilst Kal-L's daughter becomes the first Super Girl before passing the mantle onto her daughter who takes up the mantle of Power Girl as her niece assumes her former identity alongside her nephew.
As of 2012 the Kal-L's grandson is the current Superman with Kal-El and Kal-L only making occasional appearances when needed as Kal-El's illegitimate son calling himself Superboy or Kon-El makes an appearance.
And no I haven't given any thought as to who they're involved with but the Superman family ought to be much more interesting especially if they keep up the fact that time is still passing like in the real world.
Now I've got to figure out the Luthor family line!!!!:smallwink:

Selrahc
2012-07-31, 06:55 AM
The problem is that Superman doesn't stay in the bg and just ex machina like Zeus,

That was Zeus's role in the legends of other heroes. It wasn't his role in his own legends. He had many many tales. The story of his defeat of the Titanomachy and the coming of the Dodekathon is his main one, but then you also have the numerous numerous tales of his sexual conquests and all the other tales that have Zeus as the main character. And these are just the ones we have remaining after two thousand years.

So in Greek myth(superhero comics) you can follow Zeus(perman)'s continuing ongoing adventures in his own myth series, or you can step into a limited run series set in the same universe which features Zeus(perman) in a supporting role.


Were you implying that Herc joined the Argonauts after his death and ascension?

No. The Argonauts is more of an "Untold Tale of Heracles". Something that he did that isn't part of his main legend.

Dienekes
2012-07-31, 07:16 AM
I'm a fan of the finite type of storyline, where a story has a beginning, middle, and END. I think it's a better form of storytelling. AFAIK, all good stories are built this way, and IMO run-on stories like American comics tell terrible stories.

All stories end. But don't think of comics as just one story, think of it as an anthology of stories all about the same guy, written by numerous folk with different ideas about the character.

Now that American comics tell terrible stories, I can only shake my head and try and point out that they do not: Batman: Year One, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, The Man Who Laughs, The Dark Knight Returns, the Killing Joke are all fantastic stories and in my opinion better than any episode of the Diniverse.


All manga, even the most famous ones like DBZ, eventually end. Naruto and Bleach will eventually end. The authors may go on to tell the same story again with a different skin and different characters, but that doesn't change the fact that the previous one has ended. Even myth cycles (Greek, Norse, Celtic etc) understand that heroes' tales have a beginning and an ending.

This is a weird one. Do you know how many completely random and self contradictory stories involve the gods, Odysseus, or Herakles? Yes they had a distinctive end, Odysseus gets killed by his son Telegonus, Herakles gets poisoned and becomes a god, but before that playwrights and poets filled their history with more stories than their simple hero journey.


They made Batman movies that seem an extension of the BTAS including Mask of the Phantasm.
When i first looked at this thread i assumed it was about a tv series version rather than the animated series.
Now if only they'd release the last 2 seasons of BTAS and the JLU on region 2!

Yes, and SubZero, and The Return of the Joker (and the Mystery of Batwoman I guess, wasn't much a fan of that one to be honest). But once you finish, you finish.

There's always another comic. And a lot of them really are very good.

Selrahc
2012-07-31, 07:49 AM
Now that American comics tell terrible stories, I can only shake my head and try and point out that they do not: Batman: Year One, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, The Man Who Laughs, The Dark Knight Returns, the Killing Joke are all fantastic stories and in my opinion better than any episode of the Diniverse.

Limited series, Limited Series, Limited Series, One Shot, Elseworld Limited Series, One Shot. All of which(except Killing Joke!) only had a tangential relation to continuity, and most of which are retellings/reimaginings set at the beginning of the superhero career. Even at the time they were made, they weren't within the general order. Frankly I think that more proves the point that the storytelling methods of American Comicbooks detract from a great story, if the characters they have can create such classics when they're put into a more traditional storytelling form. :smalltongue:

There are examples of really good stories told directly within the continuity of comics though. Just to stick with Batman, I think Hush qualifies rather nicely.

Dienekes
2012-07-31, 08:05 AM
Limited series, Limited Series, Limited Series, One Shot, Elseworld Limited Series, One Shot. All of which(except Killing Joke!) only had a tangential relation to continuity, and most of which are retellings/reimaginings set at the beginning of the superhero career. Even at the time they were made, they weren't within the general order. Frankly I think that more proves the point that the storytelling methods of American Comicbooks detract from a great story, if the characters they have can create such classics when they're put into a more traditional storytelling form. :smalltongue:

There are examples of really good stories told directly within the continuity of comics though. Just to stick with Batman, I think Hush qualifies rather nicely.

Heh you know I didn't even realize I did that. But you're right, Hush is good, I rather enjoyed No Man's Land, Knightfall Part 1 was very good as well. A Death in the Family is pretty good, and I don't remember if Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader is a one-shot or from the comics.

The mistake comes from how I read comics. I just wait for trade paper backs and pick them up there, so they're all just books to me and I don't get a distinction of whether they're from the core canon or just one shots. Also, I'm not sure it proves his point any. Different writers make up their own set beginning and end for different stories in the core canon as well. What he was saying was that the overarching story needs to have a definitive beginning and end. None of those have them, they just don't happen to be within the normal comic framework.

Traab
2012-07-31, 08:20 AM
I'm a fan of the finite type of storyline, where a story has a beginning, middle, and END. I think it's a better form of storytelling. AFAIK, all good stories are built this way, and IMO run-on stories like American comics tell terrible stories.

All manga, even the most famous ones like DBZ, eventually end. Naruto and Bleach will eventually end. The authors may go on to tell the same story again with a different skin and different characters, but that doesn't change the fact that the previous one has ended. Even myth cycles (Greek, Norse, Celtic etc) understand that heroes' tales have a beginning and an ending.

Personally, my view, what I think would have been an awesome idea, would be to combine the two types of story, soft ending and hard ending, and create a constantly moving world where things are always changing. As an example, Spiderman has been web slinging for a few years, and he is getting tired of it. I dunno, old injuries catching up, he is tired of never having a life he can count on, whatever. He has stumbled across a young and eager super sidekick. He trains him, teams up with him, and eventually, grooms this new character to take over watching over new york for him. Then he retires, or dies, and thats it, peter parker is gone, its now the sidekicks turn to be the headliner.

By having time actually pass, and torches get passed on, you can have a constantly evolving Marvel world, while still finishing the story of specific heroes without retcons or reboots or otherwise screwing around with them. It also makes sense from a marketing standpoint. One of the biggest issues with introducing new heroes is you never know if they will be popular until you try. But if they get gradually introduced, say, peter has his sidekick Senor Sparko pal around for a few months, they can get viewer feedback. if the audience likes him, he can take over. If not, they can get rid of him in any of a thousand ways and bring someone else into the story and try again.

Devonix
2012-07-31, 08:24 AM
Limited series, Limited Series, Limited Series, One Shot, Elseworld Limited Series, One Shot. All of which(except Killing Joke!) only had a tangential relation to continuity, and most of which are retellings/reimaginings set at the beginning of the superhero career. Even at the time they were made, they weren't within the general order. Frankly I think that more proves the point that the storytelling methods of American Comicbooks detract from a great story, if the characters they have can create such classics when they're put into a more traditional storytelling form. :smalltongue:

There are examples of really good stories told directly within the continuity of comics though. Just to stick with Batman, I think Hush qualifies rather nicely.

Final Crisis
Crisis on Infinite Earths
Dark Phoenix Saga
For the Man who has everything
Days of Future Past.

Plenty of good stories.

And lots of the require there to be a long history of a character to exist.

Also yeah I've never understood the complaint of Superhero stories having no end when yeah they do.

The original Superman series had an end.

Silver Age Superman ended in Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow.

Modern Superman ended just before Flashpoint.

Each of those characters are different people. Just sharing the same name and having some similar things happen to them but they are not the same character.

MLai
2012-07-31, 09:19 AM
The original Superman series had an end.
Silver Age Superman ended in Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow.
Modern Superman ended just before Flashpoint.
Each of those characters are different people. Just sharing the same name and having some similar things happen to them but they are not the same character.
What. The. Hell. Does. That. Even. Mean?
I don't know if you see what's inherently wrong with what you just typed, to someone who doesn't follow comics religiously. IMO that's exactly what is wrong with American comics.
I have no idea if you just told me that all the Clark Kents are different, and frankly I don't think I want to know.
I don't mean the above in a mean-spirited tone. But see if you can examine what you just wrote from the POV of an outsider to American comics minutiae (99.9% of the population).

As for Fairy Tail? No I've never seen it. The name alone turns me off; makes me think it's some Saturday morning cartoon with talking animals in a forest.

As for Zeus. No, his occasional escapades after his war with the Titans cannot compare to Superman's long and convoluted comic book history. His war with the Titans, and his ascension to the heavenly throne, that is his main story arc. After that, he's pretty much done. He doesn't do anything noteworthy for himself after that. Occasionally seducing some Earth women cannot compare to the insanity of [points to what Devonix just said above].

There was a period of time when I really tried to get into American comics (high school thru college). But I eventually realized its story format just isn't for me.

One thing that especially drove me crazy is the writer merry-go-round. For me following a specific character is meaningless; I want to follow the writer/artist! But whereas in normal books or in manga that's easy to do(character X or saga X belongs to this author), in comics it's near impossible for a casual. I eventually gave up.:smallfrown:

Prime32
2012-07-31, 12:54 PM
Personally, my view, what I think would have been an awesome idea, would be to combine the two types of story, soft ending and hard ending, and create a constantly moving world where things are always changing. As an example, Spiderman has been web slinging for a few years, and he is getting tired of it. I dunno, old injuries catching up, he is tired of never having a life he can count on, whatever. He has stumbled across a young and eager super sidekick. He trains him, teams up with him, and eventually, grooms this new character to take over watching over new york for him. Then he retires, or dies, and thats it, peter parker is gone, its now the sidekicks turn to be the headliner.

By having time actually pass, and torches get passed on, you can have a constantly evolving Marvel world, while still finishing the story of specific heroes without retcons or reboots or otherwise screwing around with them. It also makes sense from a marketing standpoint. One of the biggest issues with introducing new heroes is you never know if they will be popular until you try. But if they get gradually introduced, say, peter has his sidekick Senor Sparko pal around for a few months, they can get viewer feedback. if the audience likes him, he can take over. If not, they can get rid of him in any of a thousand ways and bring someone else into the story and try again.Ever read JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/JoJosBizarreAdventure)? It's an insanely-long-running manga which starts in the 19th century with the British nobleman Jonathan Joestar, and after his story is complete it moves on to his grandson a few decades later. After his arc it moves on to his grandson and so on, with a different tone to each story. (though the whole thing could be summed up as "Fist of the North Star meets Dr. McNinja").

Dienekes
2012-07-31, 01:41 PM
What. The. Hell. Does. That. Even. Mean?
I don't know if you see what's inherently wrong with what you just typed, to someone who doesn't follow comics religiously. IMO that's exactly what is wrong with American comics.
I have no idea if you just told me that all the Clark Kents are different, and frankly I don't think I want to know.
I don't mean the above in a mean-spirited tone. But see if you can examine what you just wrote from the POV of an outsider to American comics minutiae (99.9% of the population).

He means like Sherlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes) is not the same character as Sherlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes_%282009_film%29) is not the same character as Sherlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_%28TV_series%29). Over time different authors have taken their own interpretations of the character and run with it. And within the comic books the character of Superman has had a definitive start and finish. Then gets started up again. With each round different aspects of the character are emphasized or re-imagined so to those who knew the old Superman can still read and recognize what is being written as Superman, even though the stories have changed.


As for Fairy Tail? No I've never seen it. The name alone turns me off; makes me think it's some Saturday morning cartoon with talking animals in a forest.

Ehh, shouldn't judge a book by it's name. I thought Fables sounded pretty silly, but it's become one of my favorite reads.


There was a period of time when I really tried to get into American comics (high school thru college). But I eventually realized its story format just isn't for me.

That's fine. Isn't for me however is not the same as does not make for good stories. The fact that these series are still going proves that at least some people think they're good stories even if you disagree.


One thing that especially drove me crazy is the writer merry-go-round. For me following a specific character is meaningless; I want to follow the writer/artist! But whereas in normal books or in manga that's easy to do(character X or saga X belongs to this author), in comics it's near impossible for a casual. I eventually gave up.:smallfrown:

And here we have why I don't think you'll ever like these comics. It's all about the character, if following a specific character is meaningless you probably won't really like them. Mind you, following some authors is easier than others, but as a whole yeah I can see where you'd be having some problems.

Traab
2012-07-31, 01:42 PM
Ever read JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/JoJosBizarreAdventure)? It's an insanely-long-running manga which starts in the 19th century with the British nobleman Jonathan Joestar, and after his story is complete it moves on to his grandson a few decades later. After his arc it moves on to his grandson and so on, with a different tone to each story. (though the whole thing could be summed up as "Fist of the North Star meets Dr. McNinja").

Never read it, but it sounds about right. Though I was thinking less time skip, more day to day. As time passes, old bad guys either reform, die, or are imprisoned, while new ones pop up. Old heroes find apprentices to train, similar to batman beyond, and as the new guys get better, the old guard fades away. New advances are discovered in some cases, like say ironman's replacement and his new suit, and time marches on as the world evolves politically and culturally due to the effects of these good and bad guys.

Selrahc
2012-07-31, 01:47 PM
As for Zeus. No, his occasional escapades after his war with the Titans cannot compare to Superman's long and convoluted comic book history.

But maybe in 2000 years....


After that, he's pretty much done.

No... after the war with the titans, he sets up Olympus. He has a wager with his brothers over it, in which he wins the right to govern the sky as chief of the gods. And after that there is a long running plot that a child of Zeus will supplant him, driving a lot of the dynamic in both his and Hera's interactions with mortals. And then there is the story of the time Zeus had a splitting headache and Athena sprang from his brow. The story of all the times Zeus officiated in the conflicts of the gods, or acted as a spokesperson for the gods, or delivered their judgements. And all the stories about Zeus sleeping with random ladies? They're all Zeus stories too.

Because the tale of Zeus does not have a neat and tidy beginning middle and end. The tale of the *Titanomachy* does. But the setting, and the characters from it, are reused elsewhere. In new stories, each one to be judged on its own merits.


The stories of superheros do not have beginning/middle/ends. Because they aren't really stories. The stories that are told about superheroes, generally do.

Let's flip over to Norse myth for a different example. Norse myth is driven by the concept of Ragnarok. The fated ending of the world, with the roles of most of the principle characters in Norse mythology spelled out. But the tales of Norse mythology happen in a vast interstitial point between that fated end and the beginning. They essentially exist in a state where characters can't change or die, because that fate is already known. But they can still have new stories told about them. A new tale where Thor is forced to dress like a woman to win back his hammer from a rascally giant. Or where Loki sleeps with a horse. All of these intermediate stories in the Norse myth cycle take place in the same narrative space as superhero comics. You aren't allowed to change the characters too much, because there is a status quo to maintain. But people still told new stories about them. Just within an awkward narrative framework. :smallamused:

MLai
2012-07-31, 07:17 PM
I'll give you that the old myths seem more like closed structured stories because they happened in the past and aren't being expanded further upon. So to us coming over to read them 2000 years later would make it seem like they're self-contained stories with beginning and end.

If I was an Ancient Greek or Norseman, the myth cycles would probably be occurring around me like new issues of superhero comics, except being sung. And yeah there are probably 500x the amount of stories back then, compared to what we know of know. And only the best/ most famous ones, like TDKR, survives 2 millennia later for readers to continue reading. Crap like One More Day disappeared into the trash heap of history.

Devonix
2012-07-31, 07:36 PM
He means like Sherlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes) is not the same character as Sherlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes_%282009_film%29) is not the same character as Sherlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_%28TV_series%29). Over time different authors have taken their own interpretations of the character and run with it. And within the comic books the character of Superman has had a definitive start and finish. Then gets started up again. With each round different aspects of the character are emphasized or re-imagined so to those who knew the old Superman can still read and recognize what is being written as Superman, even though the stories have changed.




Yeah good way to explain. I didn't even think it was that hard to understand , its like saying that you like Transformers. Well Transformers g1 Transformers Animated. Transformers Prime, Movies, Comics, excetera, They all have Optimus Prime but they are all different Optimus Primes. in the same way those are all different Supermen.

The only difference being that instead of there being completely seperate series titles they keep the same title and just change the character and world. But readers know they are reading a different person.

MLai
2012-07-31, 09:20 PM
I didn't even think it was that hard to understand , its like... The only difference being that instead of there being completely seperate series titles they keep the same title and just change the character and world. But readers know they are reading a different person.
And how would they know this, if the "Previous Superman" didn't die or somehow end? Did the comic book explicitly restart the entire thing from the beginning like a movie franchise reboot, and just pretend everything before it never happened?

An aside on Man Of Steel movie... I can't believe someone is stupid enough to think that another Superman reboot was a good idea.
I had thought it'd just be a more-kickass-action movie about Superman starting from somewhere in the middle of his career. I was totally for that. Then I saw the trailer. OMFG, they're going to start from his origin in Kansas. Like we really need that for Superman. :smallmad:

Lord Seth
2012-07-31, 09:42 PM
An aside on Man Of Steel movie... I can't believe someone is stupid enough to think that another Superman reboot was a good idea.Just like someone was stupid enough to think that another Batman reboot was a good idea...oh wait, that wasn't stupid at all, Batman Begins was a big success and led to even bigger successes with The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises.

Scowling Dragon
2012-07-31, 09:53 PM
Their making another reboot for Batman. Already.

Devonix
2012-07-31, 10:42 PM
And how would they know this, if the "Previous Superman" didn't die or somehow end? Did the comic book explicitly restart the entire thing from the beginning like a movie franchise reboot, and just pretend everything before it never happened?



YES that is exactly what happens. Thats what people are talking about with comic book reboots. They start all over again because in the previous stories they have Superman

Retire: Which is what happend with Silver age superman

Go off to Heaven: Which is what happened with Golden Age superman


Finish a big story and the universe resets later: Which was what happened to the most recent Superman.

These things happen to lots of characters when the writers feel they've gone as far as they plan on going with them and its time for different earlier stories.

Some fans like it some fans want more stories with the characters but it's not really any different than someone rebooting a movie franchise.


Stan Lee had a saying. Every comic is someone's First Comic that is why they always try and have jumping on points for everyone.


And I am sorry, but you keep talking about a need to end stories, When They Do.

And about being clear when they reboot stories, Which They Do.

I get it, that you don't read these types of comics much, but you are complaining about things that don't exist, at least not in the way that you are describing them.

MLai
2012-08-01, 01:07 AM
Just like someone was stupid enough to think that another Batman reboot was a good idea...oh wait, that wasn't stupid at all, Batman Begins was a big success and led to even bigger successes with The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises.
No point arguing how they're different circumstances.
Well then, let's see how well this movie does. It's coming out soon IIRC.
I won't necro this thread at that point. But if I remember, I'll link this thread.

Dienekes
2012-08-01, 01:28 AM
No point arguing how they're different circumstances.
Well then, let's see how well this movie does. It's coming out soon IIRC.
I won't necro this thread at that point. But if I remember, I'll link this thread.

I don't really see how they are.

Batman made 2 really good movies, and then a series of bad ones. Eventually someone comes along with the great idea to, why not, restart the whole thing with a different tone and see if it'll wash the taste of the last movie out of our mouths.

Superman made 2 really good movies, and then a series of bad ones. Looks like someone came along with the idea to restart the whole thing with a different tone and see if it'll wash the taste of the last couple of movies our of our mouths.

Could be good. Could be bad. Honestly I'm worried by Zack Snyder's involvement more than anything. I don't really know if he's a good fit for Superman at all. But they seem to be doing some things right, setting up a villain that Supes can actually fight in a summer blockbuster is always a good thing. From what I've seen Amy Adams is a good actress,

Hopeless
2012-08-01, 05:48 AM
Right lets assume they're planning to bring a Justice League movie onto the screens in say about 3-4 years.

Name who you'd want in movies leading up to an actual Justice League movie.

I remember the justice league being made up from Aquaman, Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), Martian Manhunter, the Flash and Black Canary (II) the big three were not initially involved as far as I remember but please note this can be easily because I started reading those comics after the Crisis the first one I mean!:smallbiggrin:

So who would you choose?

Just to make things more interesting if they did this as a tv series and you had to keep an eye on the budget who would you choose or would you go via the Justice Society instead?:smallwink:

Traab
2012-08-01, 06:55 AM
Well chances are, the big three would almost HAVE to be involved. They would likely feel that they need to have the big name draw to raise enough interest in it. I mean, the average non comic reader would likely have no idea who the black canary is, nor would they likely care. However, if you include the big 3, or even just a couple of them, like batman and superman, that leaves several slots open that could be used for just about any configuration they want, which could potentially let them bring in relative unknowns and make them popular with a good film. Marvel has a lot of movie worthy characters, dc honestly doesnt have that many that are popular on the big screen. But, if they can pull an Avengers, they have the chance. Ironman, captain america, thor, none of them were big movie characters until marvel made them that way in this latest setup. So I hope they pick wisely, because a justice league setup gives them the chance to expand the dc movie universe lineup.

18th Avenger
2012-08-01, 11:08 AM
Their making another reboot for Batman. Already.

I'm not holding my breath. I know we shouldn't look at the tangible details, but there's a part of me that just can't shake some things. Alfred with guns? Batman's towhead design?

On the bright side, it's got some pretty wicked Grant Morrison villains. Also, they're adapting The Dark Knight Returns, so the balance is maintained. :smalltongue:

Devonix
2012-08-01, 11:28 AM
I've got no problem with Alfred using guns, the rule is for Batman and his students. Alfred doesn't fall into that catagory. In fact he's not adverse to working alongside heroes who use guns.

Anyone worried/excited for the Booster Gold live action series on Scifi channel?

Refuse to use the term Syfy

Lord Seth
2012-08-01, 11:47 AM
No point arguing how they're different circumstances.I agree there's no point, because the circumstances are actually pretty similar, as Dienekes pointed out.

MLai
2012-08-01, 12:41 PM
Now, when you say that about the Superman movies, are you working from the assumption that the new movie will spend a good portion of time introducing Superman and treating the movie as his first heroic adventure, or have you followed the movie production and know that it's not going to spend any time on the origin, or maybe it will quickly skip to later in his career when he's experienced and known in the world?

I saw the trailer in the cinema and I'm assuming the former. But if it's actually the latter and I'm just misled by a bad trailer, then I can revise my opinion. About the movie. Nothing can change my mind about American comics and I'm not even interested enough in it anymore to debate my point.

Sanguine
2012-08-01, 02:16 PM
Anyone worried/excited for the Booster Gold live action series on Scifi channel?

Wait they're making a Booster Gold show? Oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh![/rainbowdash] I love Booster Gold! If they don't mess it up this could be very awesome.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-01, 03:32 PM
It shows how new I am to the comics that the only Justice League I really remember/know was on Cartoon Network / Toonami.... at the same time, I'd like to meet the person that says it wasn't awesome as hell.

MLai
2012-08-01, 11:05 PM
It shows how new I am to the comics that the only Justice League I really remember/know was on Cartoon Network / Toonami.... at the same time, I'd like to meet the person that says it wasn't awesome as hell.
Honestly the cartoon JLA was great. The action was always excellent by any standard, and it's fun watching different superheroes/villains toss it up each episode. Yeah sure that means individual characterization suffers, but I didn't watch JLA for that.

(I think I'm more talking about Unlimited?)

Ravens_cry
2012-08-02, 02:32 AM
Wait they're making a Booster Gold show? Oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh![/rainbowdash] I love Booster Gold! If they don't mess it up this could be very awesome.
He's a pretty effects heavy hero, and you can see his face in his costume.
All this means to do it right will be pretty expensive.

DigoDragon
2012-08-02, 06:58 AM
Wait they're making a Booster Gold show? Oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh![/rainbowdash] I love Booster Gold! If they don't mess it up this could be very awesome.

I don't have much experience with Booster, but his episode in the JLU cartoon is on my top 5 favorites. Comical, but he really did try and in the end managed to save the day.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-02, 02:16 PM
Honestly the cartoon JLA was great. The action was always excellent by any standard, and it's fun watching different superheroes/villains toss it up each episode. Yeah sure that means individual characterization suffers, but I didn't watch JLA for that.

(I think I'm more talking about Unlimited?)

Any remote flaw Unlimited might possibly have is made up for in Superman's Speech in the final battle. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8)

Rake21
2012-08-02, 03:13 PM
Any remote flaw Unlimited might possibly have is made up for in Superman's Speech in the final battle. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8)


The DCAU went all out every time they thought the shows were going to end.

The end of the "Justice League" series? *We get "Starcrossed", probably one of the most epic invasion stories put on television.

They thought Unlimited was over after the first season, so they gave us a three episode run ending the Cadmus arc, culminating in "Divided We Fall", which has one of the best moments in the entire history of DCAU. *Then, they did "Epilogue", which serves as the perfect cap to not only the series, but the Timm-verse itself.

And finally, we get "Destroyer", which, as you showed, is fantastic in its own right.

Scowling Dragon
2012-08-02, 03:29 PM
Though Ironically I thought about all those people LIVING in those skyscrapers, and all the people hit by the debris of the attack.

But its awesome either way.

Rake21
2012-08-02, 04:40 PM
Though Ironically I thought about all those people LIVING in those skyscrapers, and all the people hit by the debris of the attack.

But its awesome either way.

"Wow! Did you see Superman deck that guy?! Holy crap!... Hey is he heading towar-" *crashing sound*

INoKnowNames
2012-08-02, 09:37 PM
Though Ironically I thought about all those people LIVING in those skyscrapers, and all the people hit by the debris of the attack.

But its awesome either way.

Reminds me a bit of Majin Buu (Fat) vs Super Saiyan Goku 3. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R15TG-w_ExI) It's more that the threat is so big, spending everything to beat it, regardless of the colateral, becomes a viable option. Even though that's still quite a few people slaughtered...


"Wow! Did you see Superman deck that guy?! Holy crap!... Hey is he heading towar-" *crashing sound*

Hopefully everyone evacuated by the time the city was being invaded by aliens. At the very least backing out of the building and the main streets.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-02, 09:38 PM
Though Ironically I thought about all those people LIVING in those skyscrapers, and all the people hit by the debris of the attack.

But its awesome either way.

Reminds me a bit of Majin Buu (Fat) vs Super Saiyan Goku 3. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R15TG-w_ExI) It's more that the threat is so big, spending everything to beat it, regardless of the colateral, becomes a viable option. Even though that's still quite a few people slaughtered...


"Wow! Did you see Superman deck that guy?! Holy crap!... Hey is he heading towar-" *crashing sound*

Hopefully everyone evacuated by the time the city was being invaded by aliens. At the very least backing out of the building and the main streets.

Lord Seth
2012-08-02, 11:12 PM
They thought Unlimited was over after the first season, so they gave us a three episode run ending the Cadmus arc, culminating in "Divided We Fall", which has one of the best moments in the entire history of DCAU. *Then, they did "Epilogue", which serves as the perfect cap to not only the series, but the Timm-verse itself.Perfect? I don't think so.

The episode did have some things going for it. I really liked the fact we got more of a conclusion for Batman Beyond, including the fact that Terry and Dana stayed together. However, the "Terry is actually Bruce's son through confusing technobabble!" was unnecessary, didn't make sense, and in my view actually sabotages the show because it implies that whether you can be a hero or not is somehow in your genetic code.

Furthermore, judging by how many people got confused about it, I think they really could have done a better job showing that the grayscale sequences were not flashbacks and instead were Terry imagining how things could have happened.

The episode had some good stuff in it, but it was certainly not perfect.


And finally, we get "Destroyer", which, as you showed, is fantastic in its own right.You mean the one where everything is resolved through a deus ex machina that makes no sense unless you're familiar with the comics?

Scowling Dragon
2012-08-02, 11:15 PM
Hopefully everyone evacuated by the time the city was being invaded by aliens. At the very least backing out of the building and the main streets.

Where they all died from the falling rubble and supermans ground pound.

Also the thing wasn't resolved through dues ex machina but a magufin.

Similar, but not the same.

Dragonus45
2012-08-03, 04:51 PM
I think the fundamental flaw with soft endings is that it makes it hard to take changes seriously. And any time a character developes or changes it eventualy gets strangled, or rewritten. When something ends you can gain a feel of closure that you can't get with a never ending story.

Scowling Dragon
2012-08-03, 05:19 PM
I think the fundamental flaw with soft endings is that it makes it hard to take changes seriously. And any time a character developes or changes it eventualy gets strangled, or rewritten. When something ends you can gain a feel of closure that you can't get with a never ending story.

Exactly. No death is ever epic or poignant.

Its just "I bet 15 bucks on 3 weeks" until they are cloned, resurected or the death is retconned.

PlusSixPelican
2012-08-03, 06:09 PM
Crap like One More Day disappeared into the trash heap of history.

The myth version of that is the one when some bard decided Zeus and Hera's marriage was undone by Kronos (because time) so that Zeus could appeal to the 'hip' demographic. xD It wasn't very popular, and also totally fake because I just made that up.

One More Day makes me cry sometimes. In good news, though, Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane (also known as Bitches Love Spider-Man) was published at the same time, so you know Marvel was apologizing to us while stabbing us in the face.

MLai
2012-08-03, 11:04 PM
The myth version of that is the one when some bard decided Zeus and Hera's marriage was undone by Kronos (because time) so that Zeus could appeal to the 'hip' demographic. xD It wasn't very popular, and also totally fake because I just made that up.
Could have happened.
And then the bard in question also could have taken shelter under an olive tree during a thunderstorm. And got electrocuted.
And then the Greek world would have nodded sagely and jotted down one more thing on the list of things not-to-do.

Dragonus45
2012-08-06, 05:29 PM
Exactly. No death is ever epic or poignant.

Its just "I bet 15 bucks on 3 weeks" until they are cloned, resurected or the death is retconned.

For me death is the least important impact, its the total lack of character growth and strangling of any world development that results. Even if they did have comics with ends we would see constant repeats do too copy right laws.

Rake21
2012-08-06, 08:00 PM
The myth version of that is the one when some bard decided Zeus and Hera's marriage was undone by Kronos (because time) so that Zeus could appeal to the 'hip' demographic. xD It wasn't very popular, and also totally fake because I just made that up.

One More Day makes me cry sometimes. In good news, though, Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane (also known as Bitches Love Spider-Man) was published at the same time, so you know Marvel was apologizing to us while stabbing us in the face.

Really, one of the worst things about it is that we've had some fantastic Spider-man stories since One More Day. And not a single one of those stories would have been any different with Peter being married to Mary Jane.

Scowling Dragon
2012-08-06, 08:30 PM
For me death is the least important impact, its the total lack of character growth and strangling of any world development that results. Even if they did have comics with ends we would see constant repeats do too copy right laws.

I just death as the biggest example of retconning. No action PERIOD is ever effective because some later writer will decide to undo it and take things back to status quo (One More Day :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:)

MLai
2012-08-07, 02:11 AM
just death as the biggest example of retconning. No action PERIOD is ever effective because some later writer will decide to undo it and take things back to status quo (One More Day :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:)
For you it's OMD. For me personally, it'll always be the matter-of-course no-explanations resurrection of Bloodscream after Wolverine final-prophesized-ultimate-weapon-killed him.