Need Help with Custom Dice Pool System!

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Right. So like many many people here I've tried to write my own RPG. A daunting task that will likely not see publication of any sort, but I'd like to try all the same. While I'm not ready to post the thing here yet, I was hoping for some advice from someone who has a head for crunch. Specifically, I need help with Health and Damage mechanics, since I'm unfamiliar with how dice pools handle such things.

To start with, what we have here is a D12 system. D12 isn't the most important dice, but it's attached to everything so we'll roll with that *Ba-dum-tish!*. This system utilizes Dice Pools in resolving conflicts such as combat or social encounters. For our purposes we shall consider the D12 the Fate Dice, and the rest as Stat or Skill Die.

At character creation you get a set number of die, all d6's barring a change in size category. You then assign them to the usual six Stats. So you could have 3 Die in Strength, which means that when you roll, say, melee attacks you would roll the d12 alongside 3d6. In addition you also get Skill Dice that are distributed in the same way. So you could put 2 Die into One-Handed Skill, making you better with medium-weight weapons. These are also d6's. When leveling up you get some dice for Stats and Skills and assign them where you wish. You may add them to the pool, or you may use up a dice to upgrade another into a higher category, for example using a new skill dice to turn an older d6 into a d8. Same with Stats.

So going back to our 3 Dice Strength friend, let's say he attacks someone with his sword. He rolls 1d12, then his Str Die, and then his One-Handed Die, in this example 5d6. His opponent could Dodge the attack (an opposed roll using Dex Die and his Acrobatic Skill Die, or Tumble Skill Die) or Counterattack (opposed attack roll using Str but using up their swift action, losing a dice for the counter and then having a penalty to damage if successful).

We compare dice, matching 1st highest, 2nd highest, 3rd, etc, until all dice are accounted for. The d12 roll is used to break ties (if you and the other guy have rolled a 6, then whoever rolled higher on the fate dice wins). Count up Successes and Losses for each dice. Having more success means the attack goes through. Being tied uses the Fate Dice roll to determine an ultimate winner of an individual turn.

Now considering how I want to have a fairly realistic game, where death is common and even a high level warrior can be brought down by luck, where magic is difficult to use but exceedingly powerful, what is the best damage model available?

TLDR: If I use a dice pool to run an RPG, how best do I model health and damage if I'm going for a realistic feel?

Also, how best to model magic in this system? Casting Check and Attack Roll, or one or the other?

Suggestions PLEASE! I'm always responsive to criticism and helpful ideas and I would really like to get feedback on this!

You'd do it for Randolph Scott (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS0efFNShqo).:smalltongue:

[silphael]

For a realistic feel, the best is to have "health levels" or something like that, which gives you maluses if you're hurted, with increasing maluses. That makes, however, a system in which first strike is something like priceless, except for those sturdy enough to take no damage for a large array of things. (that is, if you have supernatural beings or things like that)

With an health level system, I strongly encourage having a damage reduction ratio, even low for humans, to avoid the "I hit you, you do nothing now..."

With such a system, I'm thinking the best idea would be to have to spend xp to gain dices, either in a stat or in a skill, or to increase a dice size. You don't truly need to level up in a system like yours. If you truly want to have something that say "you are around that level of power", simply determine amounts of xp spended with which you attain a new rank.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

For a realistic feel, the best is to have "health levels" or something like that, which gives you maluses if you're hurted, with increasing maluses. That makes, however, a system in which first strike is something like priceless, except for those sturdy enough to take no damage for a large array of things. (that is, if you have supernatural beings or things like that)

They gain...apples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malus)when injured? Do you mean that How ever many dice are in a character's Constitution, that's the number of health points they have? So every hit takes 1 Con Dice away...but yeah that makes the first hit priceless. I had the idea that heavy armor would add DR in the form of being able to stop 1 dice of damage from making it through, whereas light armor would add to the dodge dice. Perhaps all Con Die count as Points of Health, and everyone starts with their Con Die in health +3. Or something similar. Should that number be smaller? Bigger?


With such a system, I'm thinking the best idea would be to have to spend xp to gain dices, either in a stat or in a skill, or to increase a dice size. You don't truly need to level up in a system like yours. If you truly want to have something that say "you are around that level of power", simply determine amounts of xp spended with which you attain a new rank.

I like this idea. An adventurer goes up in Rank/Level when they've earned X number of dice.

[silphael]

Hum, no, malus as the latin opposite of bonus, sorry ><

In fact, there are some rules to limit the impact of the first strike, but...

To resume, a character has 7 health levels (or 8 is really tall, that's an advantages you have to pay for), and each attack that hit deal (strength+ weapon damage ratio) damage dice, a dice becoming a lost health level on a 7-10 (d10 system). But every character (nearly every, in case of non bashing weapons) may endure them: they reduce those damage with a (stamina+ some powers that may decrease damage) dice, 7-10 reducing damage. Then you apply it to your health levels. The penalties are so: unhurt/0/-1/-1/-2/-2/-5/coma/death. Those penalties never reduce the dice pool to resist damage.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Hum, no, malus as the latin opposite of bonus, sorry ><

I get it. Funny though, right?


To resume, a character has 7 health levels (or 8 is really tall, that's an advantages you have to pay for), and each attack that hit deal (strength+ weapon damage ratio) damage dice, a dice becoming a lost health level on a 7-10 (d10 system). But every character (nearly every, in case of non bashing weapons) may endure them: they reduce those damage with a (stamina+ some powers that may decrease damage) dice, 7-10 reducing damage. Then you apply it to your health levels. The penalties are so: unhurt/0/-1/-1/-2/-2/-5/coma/death. Those penalties never reduce the dice pool to resist damage.

Okay, just so I get you clearly:

A PC has 7 Health Levels (7 Dice in Con?). Every successful attack dice that gets through causes a chance of damage. The attacker rolls 1d10 per successful dice, and all those that land 7 or higher succeed in hitting the PC. The PC also rolls to negate the successful damage dice using d10's equal to their current health level (an undamaged PC can prevent more damage than an already weakened one) + armor and power bonuses against damage. Each successful damage roll reduces the Health Level by 1.

While this never reduces the number of Dice in the pool, damage lowers the health level. As the level goes down, the number of dice used against the damage roll also is reduced so:

{table=head]Health Levels and Penalties
{table]
Health Levels | Lost Die
7 | 0
6 | -1
5 | -1
4 | -2
3 | -2
2 | -5
1 | KO
0 | Death[/table][/table]

I hope I got that right. Math was never a particular strong point.

[erikun]

World of Darkness uses between 7 and 10 health levels. Characters suffer a -1 to rolls when dropped to their third-to-last health level, -2 when at second-to-last health level, and -3 when dropped to their last health level. Do note that the system has "bashing" woulds alng with "lethal" wounds, so it is entirely possible to have all health levels depleted and still be mobile (if just barely).

Older World of Darkness systems generally only had 7 health levels. You took -1 after losing two or three levels, -2 after losing four or five, -5 after losing six, and were dropped completely after losing the seventh.

Another system (FATE Dresden Files?) instead gives you ten health levels, but with a slight difference. When you take damage, you only fill in the single health level matching the damage you took. When you take damage again, you then fill out the appropriate health level, only raising it one level if that level is full. You apply the penalities associated with the highest level of damage you've taken.

For example, if you take 5 health levels of damage, you'd fill out your 5th health level and take whatever penalities are associate with it. If you take another 5 levels of damage, you'd fill out the 6th health level (because the 5th level is already full). If you then take 1 level of damage three times over, you'd fill out the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd health levels - once for each time taking damage.

It means that one big hit will leave you hurting, but you can still take a bunch of smaller hits before they start to become crippling.


There are other ways to model health, as well. You could simply associate a level of damage with a penality, and give out the penality every time that level of damage is dealt. For the example above, 5th level could be -2 and 1st level could be -1. The above character who was hit for 5 levels twice and 1 level three times would have (-2, -2, -1, -1, -1 =) a -7 penality after all of that.

Thing about how you want to handle the penalities and what you want to encourage/discourage in players.

[silphael]

I get it. Funny though, right?

Okay, just so I get you clearly:

A PC has 7 Health Levels (7 Dice in Con?). Every successful attack dice that gets through causes a chance of damage. The attacker rolls 1d10 per successful dice, and all those that land 7 or higher succeed in hitting the PC. The PC also rolls to negate the successful damage dice using d10's equal to their current health level (an undamaged PC can prevent more damage than an already weakened one) + armor and power bonuses against damage. Each successful damage roll reduces the Health Level by 1.

While this never reduces the number of Dice in the pool, damage lowers the health level. As the level goes down, the number of dice used against the damage roll also is reduced so:

{table=head]Health Levels and Penalties
{table]
Health Levels | Lost Die
7 | 0
6 | -1
5 | -1
4 | -2
3 | -2
2 | -5
1 | KO
0 | Death[/table][/table]

I hope I got that right. Math was never a particular strong point.

Okay, I forgot to add that: alongside with their health level, all characters have a stamina value (between 1 and 5 on the "standard" scale) and some (supernatural creature, but you traditionnally play one in oWoD) have some abilities that add dices to that pool, being fortitude, natural armor and so on.

Even if they are nearly dead, they still resist damage with the same dice pool, but all other dice pool suffer the health penalties.

In nWoD, you can't resist damage, you simply have more health levels (and not simply between 6 and 10, you may easily have something like 13 health levels, but a simple knife can kill a vampire in nWoD... and a resistant one, that is (but I don't want to launch a war about it, so I will stop here ><).

Both allow a measure of "not enough to impede me!" while the first being with a "that won't even hurt my grand mother!" feeling, the other with a "once more, come on!" feeling.

In fact, both systems use three types of damage: bashing (standardly written / in the health level), lethal ( X) and aggravated ( * , standing for damage from the sun on a vampire, silver on a werewolf, ...). The most grievous move the least down (direction coma), so if you already have two bashing ( / /) and you take a lethal, you're at this state ( X / / ). If you then take two aggravated, you're like that ( * * X / /). If all your health levels are full with bashing, all damage you take change the bashing into lethal. Once you have lethal everywhere, they become aggravated (or you die, pending creature type... vampires, werewolves survive, mages don't, except some heavy chimerization)

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Okay, I think I have a health system now. Let me know if there are unintended consequences. The input from silphael and erikun have been exceedingly helpful thus far, and I hope you still have advice for me.

Health Levels: All characters and all monsters have a set Base Health Level based on their type (humanoid, centauri, giant, etc). Medium Humanoids (such as typical adventurers) start with 5 Health Levels, and for every dice in their Constitution Pool they gain and additional 2 Health Levels. A character with 8 Con has 13 Health Levels, being a burly dude. Some races add or subtract Health Levels.

During a damage roll against a character, they take 1 Health Level of Damage per successful Dice roll made against them. These combine to give a total Health Level Damage. 4 Successful damage dice against a character gives them 4th Level Damage. If a Health Level previously damaged is hit again, then the next highest undamaged Health Level takes the hit.

Penalties occur after 1/2 of a character's Health Levels have been damaged. Being reduced to 1/2 remaining Health Levels causes a -1 penalty against the character's 2nd highest attack dice and/or Con dice during damage rounds. 1/4 remaining Health Levels imparts a -2 penalty for top two attack die and/or Con die. Being reduced to 1 remaining Health Level forces the character to roll a Fate Dice plus Con pool. As long as less than half of his dice come up 1, the character remains standing. Otherwise they fall unconscious. Falling to 0 remaining Health Levels means a character is dying and unconscious. After 1 Round Per Dice in their Con Pool, the character dies. This can be stopped with healing magic or the healing skill.

Scenario: A warrior-class PC is fighting a warrior-class NPC. It is the PC's turn, and so he attacks. He rolls his fate dice plus his strength and weapon dice pools together (1d12+[3d6+2d6]). The NPC decides to Dodge the attack, being a light-weapon fighter/rogue type, and rolls his fate dice plus dexterity pool and any other dice granted via race or class or armor (1d12+2d6+1d6[class]+1d8[magic_boots_of_swiftness]).

The PC wins the roll, with a 9 to 7 on fate die (ties go in his favor for the round), and 3 successes compared to 1 success on the NPC's part. The attack succeeds.

The PC leaves his dice as is, only rolling more if he used a heavy-weapon such as a greatsword or some-such that adds damage dice. The NPC rerolls, now using only his Constitution Die pool (fate die stands). Some armor negates 1 or more enemy die, or adds a set bonus to one of the wearer's.

The dice resolve again. Successes on the attacker's part are added up and applied to the defender's Health Levels.

[silphael]

Are you sure about your health levels calculation? As you wrote it, your character has something like 21 health levels (5 base + 2x8 Con) Or did you mean a character with 4 Con?

On the other side, you could consider, if you want abilities (not skills, so Con, str, and so on) to have a big importance, you could make it so:

With 1 Con, you have 6 health levels
With 2 Con, you have 8
With 3, you have 11
With 4, you have 15
With 5, you have 20

That is, at each "level" you add that level. You could even put an outo resiliency to damage based on Con.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Are you sure about your health levels calculation? As you wrote it, your character has something like 21 health levels (5 base + 2x8 Con) Or did you mean a character with 4 Con?

I meant that at 0 Con has 5 HL, a character at 1 Con Dice has 7HL, 2 Con means 9HL and so on...but I must have screwed something up somewhere now that I look at it...

Oh... I think I meant to say that someone with 8 Con DICE has 13 HL. Oops. So... 4 Con = 13HL.


On the other side, you could consider, if you want abilities (not skills, so Con, str, and so on) to have a big importance, you could make it so:

With 1 Con, you have 6 health levels
With 2 Con, you have 8
With 3, you have 11
With 4, you have 15
With 5, you have 20

That is, at each "level" you add that level. You could even put an outo resiliency to damage based on Con.

I...actually like that. Written out it seems simpler than my system, and with increasing benefits. So long as Resiliency cannot reduce damage to less than 1 Damage, then I can see Resiliency based on Con level working quite well. Attributes will have to be expensive XP wise in order to stop someone from having even 4 Con at Rank 1.

[silphael]

It depends greatly on what you want to do with your system. If you want them to improve slowly, you could let them have it, but the improvement they will take will only be addition to their abilities, not true improvement.

That is, if a beginning character may have 4 Str, and a striking skill of 3, he could have at the end of a large part of your campaign something like 5 Str and 4-5 skill...

And for the sake of all that is holy, make the attack itself (the "hitting things" part) be based on dex/agility/hability/whatever, but not strength, with damage being based on strength.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

And for the sake of all that is holy, make the attack itself (the "hitting things" part) be based on dex/agility/hability/whatever, but not strength, with damage being based on strength.

I was planning on that depending on the weapon used. Heavy Weapons, like greatswords and greathammers, would use Str to attack and damage, while light weapons like rapiers, daggers and some shortswords would attack using Dex. One-Handed Weapons (longswords, axes, maces, and such) would just use the Character's Str or Dex, whichever was higher. Damage would always be Str based.

I toyed with making all attacks dependent on Dex, but that felt like too much MAD. What do you think?

[silphael]

Did you already saw someone fighting with a greatsword? You need dexterity for everything, if only to be able to strike where you suppose the foe will be. But do as you want ^^

Furthermore, you're going for a "realistic" RPG, right? Don't bother with being MAD. A Warrior (emphasis W) has to be strong, resilient, dextrous, and even strong-willed... Magic (if you have some) will simply have to be as MAD as the rest, and if you never write things with "resistance: none" as spells, it should be okay ^^

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Did you already saw someone fighting with a greatsword? You need dexterity for everything, if only to be able to strike where you suppose the foe will be. But do as you want ^^

Alright then. I think I'll do that.


Furthermore, you're going for a "realistic" RPG, right? Don't bother with being MAD. A Warrior (emphasis W) has to be strong, resilient, dextrous, and even strong-willed... Magic (if you have some) will simply have to be as MAD as the rest, and if you never write things with "resistance: none" as spells, it should be okay ^^

The thing with magic is, I want it to be powerful, but not very visible. Magic should be devastating, but hard to use. At the same point in other RPGs where plane shift and disintegrate come online, this system should just be seeing the appearance of Fireballs. So slow progression, big results. There would never be "Resistance: None" spells. That being said, any spell that can "solve" an encounter is the kind of spell that takes days/weeks in-universe to prepare.

I don't want spellcasters to be punished with a Spellcraft Roll and then an attack roll, but at the same time I'm not sure that magic should have to meet an opposed check if the target is a mundane. In return for being fragile and suffering a very poor action economy (most spells take up their whole action for a round), maybe the spellcaster should be able to bypass the Attack Roll and skip to the Damage Roll, if they use a spell to harm a foe.

Thoughts? Nothing set in stone yet.