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DragonBaneDM
2012-08-07, 01:55 PM
Hey guys! I normally post on the 4e forum, but my problem isn't rules specific, so I figured I'd bring it here. I'm running this encounter tomorrow night, and I figured I'd ask for help here before doing so.

Here's some background, I'll just post the villains current plan A after.

I'm running a 4e campaign with the same players I've had for roughly 4 years now, and they're doing a dungeon crawl against a group called the Raven Roost Bandits, led by shadar-kai.

The one PC, a Changeling Sorcerer named Gabe, has a brother named Theo, who recently learned that he's also a Changeling, more specifically, he's learned that he and Gabe are the same person, just from alternate timelines. Theo's Sorcerer spark never ignited, and he became a Rogue who's multiclassed Wizard.

Theo escaped from his father's underground lab and swore to prove to Gabe that he's the strongest version. So he's been biding his time, and has infiltrated the Rave Roost Bandits under the guise of Allegra, a Shadar Kai Rogue.

Now this is a "Rival Fight", each of my players has come to expect a very powerful NPC that bears a personal grudge. They always end up becoming important plot wise, so I owe it to these guys to make this a good fight.

Here's the dungeon map I'm using for the Raven Roost:
http://images.wikia.com/doom/images/d/de/The_Mansion_map.png

Theo's current plan is as follows:

He, a Warlock leading the Bandits, and two guards are in the Northwest room, the one that's got a hallway leading off from every side. "Allegra" is waiting in the hallway towards the top of the map there. I've added a secret tunnel connecting that hallway with the one to the left.

Theo stole a magic crossbow awhile back that Gabe REALLY wanted. His player has made it his holy crusade to steal back that crossbow at any cost, and he knows "Allegra" has it. So I can see Gabe following Theo down the hall as he runs off. He's been studying the party both in and out of combat for two sessions now, tagging along as a cohort of an allied NPC or posing as a bar wench. He knows what his brother wears, how his magic manifests himself, and he's memorized the other members of the party, so that he can play process of elimination if need be.

Theo's set up a lever to drop a stone door that cuts off that hallway from the main room, and it also cuts off the lightsource. He has a magic item that lets him see in the dark for an hour, and he applied it right before the fight.

So that's the plan. Lure his brother into the trap room. Shut the door. Dramatic speech. Fight him one on one. Don't kill him, that would be mean, just prove he's the strongest, robs him, and leaves the crossbow with a note saying "I win."

BUT HERE'S WHAT I HAVEN'T PREPARED FOR!

What if another PC breaks through the other 3 combatants and get to Theo first? He's got Imposter Armor, so he can shapeshift to a Monk the Bandits have supposedly captured on the fly to get them to go back to the fight, but what else would you guys do? What else could I add to help ensure a dramatic fight?

link16
2012-08-07, 03:30 PM
I am just spitballing; have the PC's roll awareness, if they succeed they notice a purple ball wedged in the ceiling just out of reach. When the one PC ventures to where he is secluded from the group have the others locked in completely (another trap door opposite of the first). The room the other PC's are in starts rapidly filling with water, and the only way out is to touch the purple ball. The PC's are teleported to a room above the 1vs1 fight to watch; they are all bound and gagged in magical rope and "gag rags" that will not allow them to escape, they are forced to watch and listen to the whole battle. They are all rendered unconsious upon their party member's loss in combat, perhaps the magical bindings drain/ cause fatigue.


I am fairly new to DMing but hope this helps.

NotScaryBats
2012-08-07, 04:30 PM
You could have the taunt chase door thing happen on the second round. That way, the soldiers and leaders have a chance to lock down the other heroes. Then, if a pc stops Gabe from running off or aids him, its less random chance and more a pc victory.

Driderman
2012-08-07, 04:34 PM
I am just spitballing; have the PC's roll awareness, if they succeed they notice a purple ball wedged in the ceiling just out of reach. When the one PC ventures to where he is secluded from the group have the others locked in completely (another trap door opposite of the first). The room the other PC's are in starts rapidly filling with water, and the only way out is to touch the purple ball. The PC's are teleported to a room above the 1vs1 fight to watch; they are all bound and gagged in magical rope and "gag rags" that will not allow them to escape, they are forced to watch and listen to the whole battle. They are all rendered unconsious upon their party member's loss in combat, perhaps the magical bindings drain/ cause fatigue.


I am fairly new to DMing but hope this helps.

Rocks fall, everyone dies. No save.

Sorry, but to me that suggestion is a classic newbie DM mistake of blatantly removing all player options so they can witness his swanky "cutscene". Its very railroady, leaving the players no other option than to trigger your trap and be rendered helpless. I've yet to encounter a player who enjoys being forced into making the wrong choice.

DragonBaneDM
2012-08-07, 05:34 PM
Rocks fall, everyone dies. No save.

Sorry, but to me that suggestion is a classic newbie DM mistake of blatantly removing all player options so they can witness his swanky "cutscene". Its very railroady, leaving the players no other option than to trigger your trap and be rendered helpless. I've yet to encounter a player who enjoys being forced into making the wrong choice.

I'm sorry Link, but I'm with him here. It wouldn't be any fun for the other players to just be stuck there. That and it's a bit too magical for a couple of bandits to pull off. Still, thanks for your advice man.

Right now I'm liking Psi's advice the most here. If they all bum rush Allegra to help further Gabe's goals, who am I to say no?

newBlazingAngel
2012-08-07, 07:19 PM
He could have some form of backup that has orders to not interfere UNLESS, things take a turn for the worst in the heroes favor. Until that happens, it's strictly a family matter.

Rake21
2012-08-07, 07:58 PM
You could always have the villian teleport his brother away and, while they're fighting, have him say someting like:

"Don't worry, little brother. I wouldn't want your friends to get bored"

Then the rest of the party is attacked by demons/dragon/golems/leprichans/whatever you want. Then you run both battles as a sigle encounter with the brothers slugging it out in one room while the other party members are tangling with whatever the Big bad sent after them.

No one's bored, everyone's fighting, and you get your dramatic showdown.

Edit:

Hell, you wouldn't have to work to hard to justify it. It's perfectly logical that this jackass would have a spell in place to get his brother alone, so he can personally kill him. And of course he'd have something in place, expendable, but dangerous, minions that will keep his friends occupied while the brothers work out their family issues through stabbing.

DragonBaneDM
2012-08-07, 11:16 PM
Were he pure Wizard, and not Level 9, I'd totally be game for this! However, I wanna make this a tad more realistic. Teleportation might not be in the bag, but your post has opened up a whole lotta other options. Remote detonated traps, definitely a thing. Smoke bombs, etc.

Rake21
2012-08-08, 07:48 AM
Were he pure Wizard, and not Level 9, I'd totally be game for this! However, I wanna make this a tad more realistic. Teleportation might not be in the bag, but your post has opened up a whole lotta other options. Remote detonated traps, definitely a thing. Smoke bombs, etc.

Glad I could help a bit

Knaight
2012-08-08, 08:23 AM
There is always the obvious option - have Theo challenge Gabe to a duel, and have him request that the other PCs don't interfere, as it is a family matter.

DragonBaneDM
2012-08-08, 03:34 PM
There is always the obvious option - have Theo challenge Gabe to a duel, and have him request that the other PCs don't interfere, as it is a family matter.

I think if it comes to that, him relying on manipulating the honor of the other party members is something Theo would do! Thanks!

falloutimperial
2012-08-08, 11:36 PM
Bonus points for the evil twin making the challenge as creepy as possible.

"Dear brother, please just step on the lift that will take you to me. I assure you there is no trickery involved."

The ability to communicate before a face-to-face would be useful for this whole challenge idea as when PCs see an enemy, they are automatically thrust into the battle mindset.

Of course, you could always do the beloved style of giving everyone in the party an evil opposite for the encounter.

eepop
2012-08-09, 10:01 AM
Some kind of Baleful transposition effect would do the trick. Not sure if there is one in 4E, but its a low level spell in 3.5 so it should be okay.

Have the BBEG cast it, pulling his brother into the battle area, while simultaneously swapping in a big ole murder-beast into his place. His allies deal with the murderbeast while you have your cutscene fight.

As people have said, in general, railroading to this degree is frowned upon, but if each of your players is getting their own moment to shine like this it might be permissible.

That said, it sounded a lot like the outcome of this encounter was already decided. I would advise against that. If this is the fight for one to prove he is better than the other, actually make him prove it. It can be a hard fight for the PC, but he should have some way to win it if he gets particularly lucky or comes up with a great counter-plan on the spot.

Your job as a DM is not to make your NPCs cool, it is to make your players feel their PCs are cool. Cool NPCs can help that, but their coolness should not come at the expense of the players (unless this is just a set up defeat to play into the player's later ultimate victory).

DontEatRawHagis
2012-08-11, 11:34 AM
Idea #1:
Set up a room underneath the 1v1 room.

The idea being that Theo knew if Gabe was given assistance. So he could have trap doors to drop them into this room if he wants just his "brother". Otherwise he could use the room to make sure he and Gabe are the only ones in on the fight while the players search for the trigger for the trap door, while fighting off Theo's body guards.

Idea #2:
The room is enchanted to only allow Theo/Gabe into it. Outside Theo left his bodyguards. However, the enchantment still allows thrown or projectiles to pass through, so you can have the players help via ranged attacks. Place a few columns so he can take cover.

Idea #3:
Similar idea from above, but also allow the players to activate traps in the room from the outside. Such as spike gauntlets or dart traps.

DragonBaneDM
2012-08-12, 06:37 PM
Your job as a DM is not to make your NPCs cool, it is to make your players feel their PCs are cool. Cool NPCs can help that, but their coolness should not come at the expense of the players (unless this is just a set up defeat to play into the player's later ultimate victory).

Very much agreed. Here's what ending up happening. Gabe didn't run in after the taunts, allowing "Allegra" to use her series of tunnels and one way teleportation circles to take quick shots at the party while taking little damage in return. I didn't McGuffin any trap doors or anything like that, but instead I had him stay shapeshifted the entire fight, up until his "sister" the warlock was almost dead.

I had Allegra take the final shot at the warlock, confusing the party, and then gave my little speech and shapeshifted before attacking the weakened party. After knocking the Ranger out, he slipped away from the fighter, and proved his point by knocking Gabe out before running out of there.

It ended up being an adrenaline rush for everyone, and I feel if I hadn't had ended the fight there to allow them to tend to the dying, it would have resulted in either a TPK or a loss of a very fun recurring villain for me. I don't always let the Rivals escape, but this time I saw it fitting.

EDIT: Did my little "exit interview", last session of the summer, and everyone said it was a great session and they had fun, even the ones who got KO'd. They had essentially already won the fight, and several beforehand, and scored a level and an artifact out of the ordeal, so all was good. Thanks for the advice guys!!!