PDA

View Full Version : Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-08, 04:06 PM
And by "Winter" I mean Cold Days, which Jim finished last week (http://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2012/cold-days-is-done). No release date yet, but I'm guessing October. By the way, the paperback of Ghost Story is out, and in the back is the first chapter of Cold Days!

So Mab's "unique ideas of physical therapy" basically amount to trying to kill him while he heals. :smalltongue:
It wasn't a lot of information, and I hope there's a little more to the book than faerie court life and drama and deadliness. Like him returning from the dead to Murphy and Molly and the rest in some badass fashion, probably while saving them from something evil! Hopefully he isn't that something evil.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-08, 08:50 PM
Is the excerpt available online?

One Tin Soldier
2012-08-08, 09:06 PM
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooo
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

I'm excited.

KnightDisciple
2012-08-08, 09:10 PM
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooo!

I'm excited.

Second verse, same as the first!

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-08, 09:39 PM
The excerpt is not available online, sadly.

If you do get a chance to sneak a look at the paperback, then you can look in the spoiler! You can also look in the spoiler if you don't mind having a very small bit of the second chapter spoiled for you.

Harry's about to go celebrate a birth.... He's been in "therapy" for 77 days. 77 days plus 6 months of being dead = about 8.5 months since he "made a deal" with Mab.
I reeeeeeeeeeally hope this isn't the case, the last thing Harry needs after Maggie and murdering Susan is a changeling baby with the queen of air and darkness.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-08, 10:49 PM
The excerpt is not available online, sadly.

If you do get a chance to sneak a look at the paperback, then you can look in the spoiler! You can also look in the spoiler if you don't mind having a very small bit of the second chapter spoiled for you.

Harry's about to go celebrate a birth.... He's been in "therapy" for 77 days. 77 days plus 6 months of being dead = about 8.5 months since he "made a deal" with Mab.
I reeeeeeeeeeally hope this isn't the case, the last thing Harry needs after Maggie and murdering Susan is a changeling baby with the queen of air and darkness.


Which is why it's exceedingly likely, you know how much of a sadist Butcher is to Harry.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-08, 11:02 PM
The excerpt is not available online, sadly.

If you do get a chance to sneak a look at the paperback, then you can look in the spoiler! You can also look in the spoiler if you don't mind having a very small bit of the second chapter spoiled for you.

Harry's about to go celebrate a birth.... He's been in "therapy" for 77 days. 77 days plus 6 months of being dead = about 8.5 months since he "made a deal" with Mab.
I reeeeeeeeeeally hope this isn't the case, the last thing Harry needs after Maggie and murdering Susan is a changeling baby with the queen of air and darkness.

My guess would be a (late) celebration for the conspicuously absent party in Ghost Story.

Incidentally what you suggest made my Mary Sue alarm outright explode.

Saph
2012-08-09, 04:00 AM
I've been listening to Jim Butcher's beta readers and his editor talking about the book. They seem pretty excited about it, but I'm not reading the spoiler box because I want to keep it a surprise. :)

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-09, 04:56 AM
My guess would be a (late) celebration for the conspicuously absent party in Ghost Story.

Incidentally what you suggest made my Mary Sue alarm outright explode.

I'm really hoping it's just his birthday party. Because yes, Mary Sue, but also, WHYYYYY.

Let's see. If you don't want to discuss spoilers, how do you hope the Justice League will reenter the story?

Holocron Coder
2012-08-09, 01:51 PM
I'm really hoping it's just his birthday party. Because yes, Mary Sue, but also, WHYYYYY.



Does the timing work out for William and Georgia's coming kid, ya think?

Zea mays
2012-08-09, 04:55 PM
The excerpt is not available online, sadly.

If you do get a chance to sneak a look at the paperback, then you can look in the spoiler! You can also look in the spoiler if you don't mind having a very small bit of the second chapter spoiled for you.

Harry's about to go celebrate a birth.... He's been in "therapy" for 77 days. 77 days plus 6 months of being dead = about 8.5 months since he "made a deal" with Mab.
I reeeeeeeeeeally hope this isn't the case, the last thing Harry needs after Maggie and murdering Susan is a changeling baby with the queen of air and darkness.

Is he celebrating a birth or a birthday?
Could it be little Maggie's birthday? (the first one he knows about *sniff sniff*)
Him suddenly getting another child to worry about this far into the series seems a bit twee.

Still, hurray for the approach of cold days!
Thanks for the heads-up Mauve :smallsmile:

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-09, 05:21 PM
{Scrubbed}

darkblade
2012-08-09, 05:49 PM
I personally hope that the Chicago crew does not show up in this book. Nothing against any of the characters involved with them but now is the time for Harry to start operating on a more global scale to deal with both the power vacuum left by the Red Court and the Black Council at an international level. He's cut off from his Chicago based friends, has a map of pretty much the whole Nevernever and is in the employ of Mab, one of the farthest reaching characters we have ever seen.

He should be putting down rouge Oni in Tokyo, negotiating with Baba Yaga in Russia, letting the Hydra loose upon Athens to stop some Black Council plot, going to Atlantis everything that could be crazy enough for the series but is just not plausible while still in Chicago.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-09, 08:45 PM
He's cut off from his Chicago friends, but you know he's going to go back to them. That's the thing about an ensemble cast, I like almost every single one of them and don't want them to leave the books forever. The end of Ghost Story severed their ties, they all think he's truly dead and he knows they're doing ok. I'm thinking they won't be in Cold Days, at least not for most of it. But then I also thought that Harry's interactions in Ghost Story would have been much more limited than they were.

I just want Harry to end up with Murphy, ok? And we didn't see Michael at all in the last few books. And Mouse is too awesome to be left out. And Maggie is going to show up again, you know it.

Oooh! What if what feels like a book's length happens in Faerie, but when he gets out, years have passed and Maggie's all grown up and magicking? That might fulfill the "one book per law" thing for "don't time travel."

Lamech
2012-08-09, 09:20 PM
Oooh! What if what feels like a book's length happens in Faerie, but when he gets out, years have passed and Maggie's all grown up and magicking? That might fulfill the "one book per law" thing for "don't time travel."
Butcher's books seem to roughly follow the present. He won't leap into the future. Also it wouldn't be time travel since he needs to go against the currents of time. IMO its more likely that Maggie ends up in the Nevernever for accelerated aging.

Avilan the Grey
2012-08-10, 05:46 AM
Damn, I better finish Ghost Story...!

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-10, 05:49 AM
Damn, I better finish Ghost Story...!

Oops. :smalltongue: Yes, you really ought to. Every time I read it I find new things that make it better than I thought it was with the initial read.

Avilan the Grey
2012-08-10, 05:53 AM
Oops. :smalltongue: Yes, you really ought to. Every time I read it I find new things that make it better than I thought it was with the initial read.

The thing is that I tend to drag his books out as much as possible, because otherwise I just get stuck and finish it one sitting... and it ends too quickly! I guess I overdid it this time, though.

Aidan305
2012-08-10, 06:58 AM
The thing is that I tend to drag his books out as much as possible, because otherwise I just get stuck and finish it one sitting... and it ends too quickly! I guess I overdid it this time, though.

I do the same. Then I keep re-reading the series until the next book comes out and wondering just how innocent some innocent-seeming lines are.

Dragonus45
2012-08-10, 04:02 PM
I do the same. Then I keep re-reading the series until the next book comes out and wondering just how innocent some innocent-seeming lines are.

I just my copies of the audiobook in and listen to those nonstop. I've been doing it for so long now that I can't sleep unless I have one running.

Aidan305
2012-08-10, 04:30 PM
I just my copies of the audiobook in and listen to those nonstop. I've been doing it for so long now that I can't sleep unless I have one running.

I have those as well, though I tend to fall asleep when I'm listening to them and miss the important bits.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-11, 08:05 AM
I do the same. Then I keep re-reading the series until the next book comes out and wondering just how innocent some innocent-seeming lines are.

Summer Knight was never my favorite, but oh my gosh it foreshadows SO MUCH.

Aidan305
2012-08-11, 09:08 AM
Summer Knight was never my favorite, but oh my gosh it foreshadows SO MUCH.

I have a sneaking suspicion the same could be said about almost all the books. It might as well the called "The Foreshadowing Files". I mean, there are things that happened in Storm Front that, when correlated with events of Changes provide me with suspicions about the motivations of the Bad Guys, and yet they still haven't been confirmed.

Weimann
2012-08-11, 10:35 AM
Oh, God, I've still not finished Ghost Story. :smalleek:

Seriously, I might purchase the paperback just so I don't have to be at the computer to read the e-book version I got. Internet access can be so distracting at times.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-11, 10:59 AM
Oh, God, I've still not finished Ghost Story. :smalleek:

Seriously, I might purchase the paperback just so I don't have to be at the computer to read the e-book version I got. Internet access can be so distracting at times.

Or get a Kindle....

Weimann
2012-08-11, 11:52 AM
Or that.

The problem is that I'm not sure I like reading off a screen at all. While it would be awfully convenient, I'd rather not buy it and go "well, that sucked" and not use it.

But yeah, I should really look into the market.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-11, 11:58 AM
Yeah, no use having ebooks unless you have a kindle, nook, or at least a tablet computer. If I were you I'd buy the paperback, or get it from the library. Then you'd get the first chapter of Cold Days as well! And it really is a quick read, just shut the laptop and git'er done.
Still no official release date announcement. :smallannoyed:

Somebloke
2012-08-11, 12:12 PM
I checked my local bookstore. The paperbacks did not have the extra chapters.

So I burned it to the ground.

...

I think it was both fair and measured.

Eldan
2012-08-11, 12:16 PM
Evil Harry approves.

Eakin
2012-08-11, 02:41 PM
Yeah, no use having ebooks unless you have a kindle, nook, or at least a tablet computer. If I were you I'd buy the paperback, or get it from the library. Then you'd get the first chapter of Cold Days as well! And it really is a quick read, just shut the laptop and git'er done.
Still no official release date announcement. :smallannoyed:

If you hate your eyes, you can also get e-book apps for your smartphone

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-11, 03:11 PM
Yeah, on the smartphone I can't read for more than an hour. It's fine for a waiting room or something, but I wouldn't be able to finish a whole book that way.

Somebloke, where in the world are you?

Somebloke
2012-08-12, 05:49 AM
London.

Great for when you're reading Rivers of London, bad for Dresden updates.

Lamech
2012-08-12, 07:25 PM
I think it was both fair and measured.
Fair and measured?!?!?!? Are you a saint or something? Do we need to Canonize you when you die? Did you at least salt the ground and lace it with deadly radiation so nothing may grow their again? You sir, are a amazing example of calmness and forgiveness. :smallsmile:

Lvl45DM!
2012-08-14, 07:35 AM
I just got a chill of anticipation. I feel like my world has been frozen since I finished Ghost Story. Harry Dresden. A dish best served cold?

OK I'll stop. but gorramn it its about time! I only discovered the books at the beginning of this year so I got to read through 13 books in a row, 14 if you count Side Jobs and then there was the TV show and the comics and then there was....
nothing.

But once again there is Light! Once again there is hope! Once again there is fire! Lots of and lots of fire! Fuego!

Eldan
2012-08-14, 07:51 AM
How are the comics? Because wonder of wonders, I actually found them in a bookstore here. Normally, the comic section in local bookstores here is one shelf containing two tons of Belgian and French comics, some mainstream Shonen manga from ten years ago and two or three old marvel trade paperbacks.

Are they a good adaption? The TV show was weird. Not bad, necessarily, just not very good and not with much in common to the books.

lord_khaine
2012-08-14, 08:16 AM
I just want Harry to end up with Murphy, ok? And we didn't see Michael at all in the last few books. And Mouse is too awesome to be left out. And Maggie is going to show up again, you know it.

Hmm? i must say that personaly i would prefer him to end up with Molly, mostly due to Harry's extended lifespan being unfair to both him and Murphy.

Lvl45DM!
2012-08-14, 09:51 AM
Hmm? i must say that personaly i would prefer him to end up with Molly, mostly due to Harry's extended lifespan being unfair to both him and Murphy.

He can't end up with Molly. That's just icky.

And the comics are fine. The ones that are remakes of the novels are kinda bland don't really add much. But the Welcome to the Jungle one was pretty cool

The Glyphstone
2012-08-14, 10:04 AM
Hmm? i must say that personaly i would prefer him to end up with Molly, mostly due to Harry's extended lifespan being unfair to both him and Murphy.

That's one reason I'm hoping Murphy takes up Gard on her offer by the end.

Dragonus45
2012-08-14, 10:36 AM
That's one reason I'm hoping Murphy takes up Gard on her offer by the end.

I see at as more of a both are an option kinda thing. He can love Murphy for the fullness of her life. Then one day once him and Molly both have a century or so under there belts and she is his equal instead of his student they can enter into a relationship of equals.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-14, 11:10 AM
So now the Dresden files are a wacky harem comedy?:smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2012-08-14, 11:30 AM
They weren't? I think Harry even made a few comments like that. Or maybe it was Bob. He has so many potential love interests over the series. At least four- off-hand, probably more. Some get killed off.

Tyndmyr
2012-08-14, 12:56 PM
They weren't? I think Harry even made a few comments like that. Or maybe it was Bob. He has so many potential love interests over the series. At least four- off-hand, probably more. Some get killed off.

Yeah, but it's what, a year per book? If four or so love interests in over a decade == harem, then gee, I apparently qualify.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-14, 01:09 PM
Harry doesn't have a harem, he just suffers from serial monogamy.

Avilan the Grey
2012-08-14, 02:27 PM
He can't end up with Molly. That's just icky.

It was, but isn't really anymore. And it will be less and less so for every year... when she is 150 and he is 180...
And Murphy is a lost cause now because of the age thing.

lightningcat
2012-08-14, 03:13 PM
Harry doesn't have a harem, he just suffers from serial monogamy.

Its more appropriate to just say that he suffers. The things that Jim Butcher has his characters deal with. :smallamused:

But right now, Molly is seriously broken, and Harry is mostly at fault. So getting her back on a sane track is more important than getting into her pants

Serack
2012-08-14, 04:19 PM
I've been listening to Jim Butcher's beta readers and his editor talking about the book. They seem pretty excited about it, but I'm not reading the spoiler box because I want to keep it a surprise. :)

Jim recommended your Alex Verus series again on Patrick Rothfuss' new web (http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2012/08/the-story-board-episode-1/) show Thursday Night.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-14, 04:30 PM
Nah, Jim never writes anything that isn't important, so I'm thinking not only will Harry end up a Winter Knighted Dark Hallowed Denarian by the Big Ass Trilogy, but Murphy will end up a Sword-Bearing Valkyrie.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-14, 06:03 PM
Its more appropriate to just say that he suffers. The things that Jim Butcher has his characters deal with. :smallamused:

But right now, Molly is seriously broken, and Harry is mostly at fault. So getting her back on a sane track is more important than getting into her pants

There's a Trope For That. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IntimatePsychotherapy) :smallcool:

hamlet
2012-08-15, 07:55 AM
But right now, Molly is seriously broken, and Harry is mostly at fault. So getting her back on a sane track is more important than getting into her pants

You obviously have skewed priorities in life.:smallwink:


I doubt that Molly and Harry will end up together. At least initially. Maybe a hundred years down the road, but not at first. Harry's too attached to Murphy for that to fly. And Murphy would probably kill him. Michael definately would.

lightningcat
2012-08-15, 12:42 PM
You obviously have skewed priorities in life.:smallwink:


I would disagree with that, but I've lost that arguement before.:smallbiggrin:

Of course one of the things I'm curious about is what's going to happen between Harry and Anastasia Luccio.

Somebloke
2012-08-15, 04:32 PM
Awkward, painful silences? A desperate attempt on the part of both of them to forget their horrifically subverted relationship? What happened in Turncoat sunk that ship for good.

lord_khaine
2012-08-15, 04:48 PM
It was, but isn't really anymore. And it will be less and less so for every year... when she is 150 and he is 180...
And Murphy is a lost cause now because of the age thing.

Yeah, it allready reached the point where it is no longer Icky in ghost story, Molly is an adult now, and she is no longer Harry's student.

lightningcat
2012-08-15, 06:07 PM
Awkward, painful silences? A desperate attempt on the part of both of them to forget their horrifically subverted relationship? What happened in Turncoat sunk that ship for good.

I was speaking more of them dealing with each other as Warden and what ever Harry is going to be considered after he comes back. Their previous relationship is only going to make that more ... interesting.

BRC
2012-08-15, 06:10 PM
Yeah, it allready reached the point where it is no longer Icky in ghost story, Molly is an adult now, and she is no longer Harry's student.

No longer Immoral, still a little Icky. I don't see Harry being okay with it though. In his mind, She'll always be some combination of his student/his friend's daughter. Plus, GHOST STORY SPOILERS

He used her to arrange his own assassination, then wipe his memory of it. He ha her to become complicit in his death, violate the third law (Again), and then had her spend two years being the only one (Besides Kincaid, the Archive, and a few Angels) who knew what had happened. While Murphy, Thomas, and everybody else was trying to find Harry's killer, She had to sit there, knowing exactly what happened, and not tell anybody.
In the process he drives her crazy, and sends her into the loving care of his psychotic godmother.
And guess what, in the end, It Did Not Work.
The Point is, Harry is probably feeling a truckload of Guilt as far as Molly is concerned. While there ARE people out there who would start their reparations at crotch level, Harry is not one of them.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-15, 06:12 PM
Clearly, the only equitable solution is for Winter Knight Denarian Black Councilman Harry to rule the world with an iron fist while Molly, Murphy, and Luccio kneel chained to his throne in go-go outfits.

Eldan
2012-08-15, 06:47 PM
You forgot Vampire Fey-Hound Darkhallow-God.

BRC
2012-08-15, 06:49 PM
What about Mouse?

Eldan
2012-08-15, 07:17 PM
And Star Child. I forgot Star Child.

And what about Mouse? I don't think there was any power associated with him that Harry could take up.

Dragonus45
2012-08-15, 07:51 PM
Yeah, it allready reached the point where it is no longer Icky in ghost story, Molly is an adult now, and she is no longer Harry's student.

There is a world of difference in no longer being directly taught by him and not being "His Student" At the end of the day Harry is her Mentor, her gate to world of her adult life. It would be Icky and Immoral for him to take advantage of that situation to date her until well into her more mature years.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-15, 08:15 PM
Star Child? Whassat?

I still think Murphy > Molly as far as romantic partners go, but we all know that whichever is first it's going to end tragically.

Dragonus45
2012-08-15, 08:38 PM
Star Child? Whassat?

I still think Murphy > Molly as far as romantic partners go, but we all know that whichever is first it's going to end tragically.

Whichever is first? Please this is Harry Dresden EVERYTHING is going to end badly.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-15, 08:39 PM
I know right? How much do you want to bet he fails at averting the Big Apocalypse that happens in the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy?

The Glyphstone
2012-08-15, 08:49 PM
And then Butters declares TPK and has them all roll new characters, and this time don't just make copies of themselves for the next campaign.

Lvl45DM!
2012-08-15, 09:29 PM
You gotta be wondering who's on the bad guys side for the BAT. I mean the Outsiders sure, but who amongst the earthly races wants it all to end?

Dragonus45
2012-08-16, 12:30 AM
You gotta be wondering who's on the bad guys side for the BAT. I mean the Outsiders sure, but who amongst the earthly races wants it all to end?

Its not going to "end" its going to get new ruler ship. So has anyone considered the implications of the titles of that trilogy. Jim released them a while back and every time i think of them i get little chills.

for anyone not aware the titles are Hells Bells Stars and Stones Empty Night

lord_khaine
2012-08-16, 04:21 AM
There is a world of difference in no longer being directly taught by him and not being "His Student" At the end of the day Harry is her Mentor, her gate to world of her adult life. It would be Icky and Immoral for him to take advantage of that situation to date her until well into her more mature years.

Yes and no, actualy at the end of the day, Harry was dead and Molly was forced to stand on her own, she is no longer a child but an adult, and that makes her fair game in that regard.


Plus, GHOST STORY SPOILERS

Actualy no, that did not break the 3rd law, the important part here is that there was no forced entry.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-16, 05:18 AM
for anyone not aware the titles are Hells Bells Stars and Stones Empty Night

"There's a reason those are swears." :smallbiggrin:

Who's on the Bad Guy's Side? Everyone who sides themselves with the Outsiders. Cowl, Justin (DED dead, like Harry) and their ilk. Unless Cowl and Kumori are revealed to be time travelling Harry and Molly. :smalltongue:

Eldan
2012-08-16, 05:33 AM
Star Child? Whassat?


I just listened to the Ghost Story audiobook. He Who Walks Behind calls Harry a Child of the Stars. I guess that's the proper name for people with Anti-Outsider power.

As for the titles, I'm thinking:
Hells Bells: Hell
Stars and Stones: Sidhe
Empty Night: Outsiders. Previously, I thought vampires, but they are sort of gone. Unless the Black Court and/or White Court is behind it all.


Currently, I'm considering the Fomorians to be a good candidate for Big Bad. wide collection of monsters from all mythologies, banned to the oceans by the surviving surface supernaturals in a gigantic war, and out for revenge at all cost? Those might be mad and angry enough to deal with outsiders.

hamlet
2012-08-16, 07:34 AM
We're not even really sure what the Fomorians' deal is, yet, as I recall, or I might have just missed it.

As I see it, they're really just a side show for the moment until Harry gets back to Chicago for real and asserts control, which I think is going to be the end result of Cold Days, or the theme of the book after that, perhaps. Harry, realizing now that he created a power vacuum of mega proportions, is going to make the decision that he's the best (or at least least horrible) person to fill it up again and turn Chicago into a White Council town, possibly even the new home to the Council after the old headquarters get thrashed.

Gryffon
2012-08-16, 07:46 AM
We're not even really sure what the Fomorians' deal is, yet, as I recall, or I might have just missed it.

As I see it, they're really just a side show for the moment until Harry gets back to Chicago for real and asserts control, which I think is going to be the end result of Cold Days, or the theme of the book after that, perhaps. Harry, realizing now that he created a power vacuum of mega proportions, is going to make the decision that he's the best (or at least least horrible) person to fill it up again and turn Chicago into a White Council town, possibly even the new home to the Council after the old headquarters get thrashed.

Or, maybe he could turn to Marcone for that. Marcone has been setting himself up for it the whole time. Sometimes the evil you know is better than the evil you don't. And Harry might be willing to throw into this one, as he knows that Marcone prefers order and "gentlemanly" villainy.

Eldan
2012-08-16, 08:40 AM
We're not even really sure what the Fomorians' deal is, yet, as I recall, or I might have just missed it.


The Leanansidhe gives a bit of detail on them in Ghost Story. Apparently, they are a loose alliance of various powerful critters banished from the land to the ocean by other supernatural powers. Titans, giants, demons, serpents, spirits, whatever they were called in their own mythologies.

hamlet
2012-08-16, 08:44 AM
Or, maybe he could turn to Marcone for that. Marcone has been setting himself up for it the whole time. Sometimes the evil you know is better than the evil you don't. And Harry might be willing to throw into this one, as he knows that Marcone prefers order and "gentlemanly" villainy.

Marcone has actually, as I read it, been trying to do this since Changes. Without a whole lot of success.

It isn't Marcone that kept Chicago stable and really bad guy light (not free, but light) for all those years, it was really Harry. Yeah, that city had its fair share of evil and then some, but it was Harry's presence, and the fear of the realization that nobody quite knew who's side he was on, what he would do at any given moment, and just how absurdly powerful he appeared to be (and might actually be in some ways) that kept a lot of the really bad folks from trying to put down roots in town. Really, it was only those already entrenched and too tough to argue with at the time that stuck around: the Red Court, the White Court to a lesser extent, and some of the low level villainy, but for the most part, Chicago was relatively free of supernatural predators.

To be fair, it was certainly the Red Court as well that kept a lot of the stability going if only for the simple reason that there's a lot of folks who didn't want to screw with those crazy blood suckers, but . . . well . . . we all know what that led to. And imagine if the end of Changes was just a little different and Ghost Story wasn't a Ghost Story.

hamlet
2012-08-16, 08:46 AM
The Leanansidhe gives a bit of detail on them in Ghost Story. Apparently, they are a loose alliance of various powerful critters banished from the land to the ocean by other supernatural powers. Titans, giants, demons, serpents, spirits, whatever they were called in their own mythologies.

Yeah, I saw that part, but it seemed either that she didn't really know a whole lot on the matter, or she did and was simply not telling for reasons of her own. Probably a little of both, actually.

We, the readers, don't really know their game, yet. I'm sure we'll find out that it's not just a loose alliance and that there's something else at work there, but relatively minor when compared to an infestation of power hungry necromancers by comparison.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-16, 03:47 PM
I do kind of wonder what will come of Marcone's deadly Harry trap.

Gryffon
2012-08-16, 04:06 PM
Also:

http://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2012/cold-days-november-27th-2012

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-16, 05:30 PM
First thought: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! That release date is too far away!!!!! :smalleek:

Second thought: Nice cover, but I wish he'd get a freaking haircut. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2012-08-16, 08:38 PM
Did anyone else just automatically insert a "DUN DUN DUNNNNNN" at the end of the description?

KnightDisciple
2012-08-16, 08:53 PM
Wait... (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,33582.msg1543750.html#msg1543750)


Once the revision of COLD DAYS is done, I will be writing the first book of my Steampunk series, which is called The Cinder Spires at the moment. The first book, (working title of 'The Aeronaut's Windlass') should be around the length of the first Alera book, and I'm planning to get it done by year's end, AT WHICH POINT I will then begin the next Dresden novel.

...Steampunk series by Jim Butcher.

eeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

horngeek
2012-08-16, 09:06 PM
Clearly, the only equitable solution is for Winter Knight Denarian Black Councilman Harry to rule the world with an iron fist while Molly, Murphy, and Luccio kneel chained to his throne in go-go outfits.

You forgot Elaine. *nods*

Also, *starts nosebleeding at mental image*

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-16, 09:08 PM
Ok, so "The Aeronaut's Windlass" is a super goofy title and I was never able to get into Codex Alera, but I will be checking that out. :smallbiggrin: As long as the next Dresden book is earlier next year! Hopefully the break from Dresden will speed his process along!

The Glyphstone
2012-08-16, 09:11 PM
You forgot Elaine. *nods*

Also, *starts nosebleeding at mental image*

I totally did, my bad.:smallfrown: Can I make up for it by adding in Andi and Georgia?

Aidan305
2012-08-16, 09:14 PM
Did anyone else just automatically insert a "DUN DUN DUNNNNNN" at the end of the description?

Yes. Yes I did.

But November is so far away... I need my Dresden fix dammit.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-16, 09:34 PM
I know right! And I will probably be in a land with limited Internet and cell phone reception when it comes out so downloading it to my ereader becomes impossible! :smalleek:

Maugan Ra
2012-08-17, 06:42 AM
Well, I pretty much bought and read the whole damn series over the past week or so. And it has, in fact, ruined every villain everywhere for me. Now, whenever I am reading their descriptions, or the DM is making the ominous introduction, all I am going to be able to think about is Harry sitting there making wiseass comments about them.

That said, it is something of a credit to Jim Butcher that I can still take his bad guy's seriously even when the protagonist is mouthing off to them. The Sidhe are kinda scary. Even... especially when Harry's godmother starts jumping up and down clapping and giggling. That is just all kinds of disturbing right there.

Personally, I'm hoping for at least one scene in Cold Days where Harry actually has to introduce himself in a formal setting. Preferably to a session of the White Council. Bonus points if no one attending realized he was still alive before he turned up.

Because Harry Dresden basically gets a narcotic high off of making dramatic entrances, and he deserves a little happiness.

Feytalist
2012-08-17, 08:12 AM
...Steampunk series by Jim Butcher.

Yeah, I pretty much had your reaction.

I am so going to read the hell out of that.


But 27 November is like... so far away.

Also I am steadfastly refraining from speculating anything about Cold Days to preserve the resulting awesomeness.

Also also, is that a gun in his hand on the cover? That's... odd.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-17, 08:22 AM
Why? Harry loves his revolver.

Cheesegear
2012-08-17, 08:24 AM
Is anyone else unhappy about the less than puntastic title? I mean, it's not even Cold 'Daze' which is totally obvious.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-17, 08:26 AM
Better than "Winter Nights", the original working title. That would have just been confusing.

Eldan
2012-08-17, 08:36 AM
Unless I'm very mistaken (and I can't check from here), he's holding a rifle, but no staff.

I assume Mab won't give him the time to make new foci, so he has to use bought weapons instead?

The Glyphstone
2012-08-17, 08:39 AM
Hm, it is a rifle. I hadn't looked at it yet, I assumed his .44 was the gun in question.

Eldan
2012-08-17, 08:47 AM
Well, his apartment burned down, his equipment was torn to shreds in fey-glamoured form and he was thrown into a lake. I'd be surprised if any of his equipment survived.

Aidan305
2012-08-17, 08:55 AM
Unless I'm very mistaken (and I can't check from here), he's holding a rifle, but no staff.

I assume Mab won't give him the time to make new foci, so he has to use bought weapons instead?

He had planned to make a new one from the Lightning-struck oak in McCoy's backyard. I presume that Mab hasn't yet given him permission to go and get some and if she sent someone other than Harry to get the wood then McCoy would get very suspicious.

Feytalist
2012-08-17, 08:59 AM
Or, like the hat, maybe it's just the cover artist playing silly buggers.

Obrysii
2012-08-17, 09:13 AM
You gotta be wondering who's on the bad guys side for the BAT. I mean the Outsiders sure, but who amongst the earthly races wants it all to end?


Who's on the Bad Guy's Side? Everyone who sides themselves with the Outsiders. Cowl, Justin (DED dead, like Harry) and their ilk. Unless Cowl and Kumori are revealed to be time travelling Harry and Molly. :smalltongue:

I'm betting our friend Ferrovax will be showing up quite a bit. As he could drop Harry with but a fraction of one word of his True Name, he's quite powerful.

Plus...
According to the Wikis, Butcher has said that Ferrovax is not just any old dragon, but more like Nidhogg, gnawing on the roots of the World Tree. Just as well, it mentions that in a three way fight between the Leansidhe, the Eldest Gruff, and Ferrovax, that the latter would "curbstomp" the other two...

Eldan
2012-08-17, 09:39 AM
He actually mentioned that all dragons are like that, if I remember correctly. They are embodiments of universal principles and energies and more eastern than western inspired.

Which is what makes Michael defeating one all the more impressive.

KnightDisciple
2012-08-17, 10:51 AM
Hm, it is a rifle. I hadn't looked at it yet, I assumed his .44 was the gun in question.

It's a very cowboy-style gun, too. Looks like a lever-action rifle.

He still has his blasting rod, as I recall. As well as his amulet (which is probably the most important item, all things considered).

EDIT: Jim himself (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,33582.msg1544049.html#msg1544049) tells us it's a Winchester chambered for .45 Long Colt. Probably no magic in/on it.
But the fact that Jim not only tells us specifically what it is, but also opines on its abilities for self-defense, makes me think Harry's going to be using it.

Lamech
2012-08-17, 06:43 PM
You gotta be wondering who's on the bad guys side for the BAT. I mean the Outsiders sure, but who amongst the earthly races wants it all to end?

Titania, the Black Council, outsider dupes, I'm guessing Luci(fer), Justin

Now the better question is who ends up on the good guy's side?
That would be Mab, Nic and the peeps working for him. The White Court. Yeah, they really lowered the hiring bar. A lot.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-18, 08:42 AM
I hope Michael and Sanya don't die. Michael's already out of the story. I just don't want the ancient animosity between the Knights and the Nickelheads to get in the way of kicking the Apocalypse's ass. There's a Denarian on the Black Council, so they could be united against him.
Sanya's going to die because Harry is going to get the sword of hope.

Feytalist
2012-08-20, 06:16 AM
EDIT: Jim himself (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,33582.msg1544049.html#msg1544049) tells us it's a Winchester chambered for .45 Long Colt. Probably no magic in/on it.
But the fact that Jim not only tells us specifically what it is, but also opines on its abilities for self-defense, makes me think Harry's going to be using it.

That's a helluva lotta gun.

Also yeah, considering his comments, it's probably going to feature in the story.

Maugan Ra
2012-08-20, 10:22 AM
I just hope Sanya doesn't die for entirely personal reasons. Namely, he has got to be one of my favorite characters.

"You are drug dealer. To tiny fairies. Shame."

"So. Mab. You hit that. You...tapped that ass. Presumably, it was phat."

Just the mental image of all his lines being said by a big black Russian guy with total seriousness is hilarious to me.

KnightDisciple
2012-08-20, 11:51 AM
Well, his apartment burned down, his equipment was torn to shreds in fey-glamoured form and he was thrown into a lake. I'd be surprised if any of his equipment survived.

The duffel bag with his blasting rod, the Swords, his sword-cane, his shotgun, Bob, and a bunch of other "questionable" goodies survived. It's on the boat, or was at any rate. I think Murphy grabbed it a while back and hid it away.

Dragonus45
2012-08-20, 03:29 PM
I hope Michael and Sanya don't die. Michael's already out of the story. I just don't want the ancient animosity between the Knights and the Nickelheads to get in the way of kicking the Apocalypse's ass. There's a Denarian on the Black Council, so they could be united against him.
Sanya's going to die because Harry is going to get the sword of hope.

Why is everyone convinced Harry is going to wield one of the Swords. I just don't see it happening. What i do see is Thomas winding up with the sword of Love. I imagine it would burn the Hunger straight out of him.

hamlet
2012-08-21, 07:46 AM
Why is everyone convinced Harry is going to wield one of the Swords. I just don't see it happening. What i do see is Thomas winding up with the sword of Love. I imagine it would burn the Hunger straight out of him.

I don't know if Thomas is going to end up with the Sword of Love. It's just . . . too easy, I guess. Not quite his style, and at the very least, not his particular weapon of choice. He's always favored sabers, kukri, and weapons of a more finesse nature rather than the blunt impact of a broadsword. It's a different fighting style and it would be difficult, but certainly not impossible, for him to change. Plus, nobody honestly knows how much of his ability comes from his inner demon as opposed to his own natural talent as a human.

However, that said, it's not impossible. It would be an interesting theme to introduce to the novels, that of redemption, which isn't quite present yet, though there are hints of it.

I actually prefer Michael's son for the Sword of Love. Yeah, he's stupid, but I attribute that to the hotheadedness and thoughtlessness of youth rather than any inherent failing on his own part. Give him a few years and get him a life partner and a life of his own, and I think he really has it in him to be what his father was, or at least the ability to approach that.

The boy's nothing to be sneezed at even now. He stood up to an Elder Fetch unarmed and without any real hope, and to me, that speaks of a lot of courage and strength of character, even if it is untempered by experience and wisdom. Those can be learned.

Of course, I'm a cynic and I also see a lot of potential for that kid to take up one of the coins as well even if only in spite of not being "given" the sword.

Eldan
2012-08-21, 10:52 AM
Well, the swords can and have been reforged, apparently. Making one a rapier somehow would be weird, but could happen.

That said, how about Justine gets the Sword of Love? That could save Thomas just as well, and it would be unexpected.

Eldan
2012-08-21, 10:53 AM
Well, the swords can and have been reforged, apparently. Making one a rapier somehow would be weird, but could happen.

That said, how about Justine gets the Sword of Love? That could save Thomas just as well, and it would be unexpected.

KnightDisciple
2012-08-21, 12:25 PM
From remarks Jim has made at various signings, I think we can deduce 2 things about the Sword of Love, Amoracchius.

1.)It likely won't be reforged. It's stood so far without being reforged, and is freaking Excalibur. I think it will keep its current shape. This is more of an inference.
2.)It will not be gifted out "permanently" (that is, to a dedicated wielder rather than a temporary bearer) until the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy. I believe Jim has either said this directly, or come so close to saying it directly it might as well be canon.

Honestly, it's hard to say who might end up with it. If we really do have to wait until the BAT, we may well have another 10 books or so, which means another 10 years at least.

Heck, maybe Maggie will end up using it! Harry might have a king somewhere in his past, or Susan (I don't think the Red King would count, since Maggie has no vampire in her). And she'd be 18 or so by the time the BAT rolls around. It'd be an interesting turn, to have his daughter possess no magic, but instead take up a Sword!

I don't think it will be Thomas. That seems too "easy". And since we've got books and books to wait, we can't be sure Thomas will even be alive; we know how much Jim likes torturing Harry! :smalleek:

I think it's pretty much a done deal that Murphy ends up with the Sword of Hope. And she might/should still be able to enter the fray in the BAT. She'd probably be in her late 40s or early 50s (I'm pegging her at being mid-20s in the first book), which is by no means a point where you just can't fight.

Dragonus45
2012-08-21, 01:53 PM
I don't think it will be Thomas. That seems too "easy". And since we've got books and books to wait, we can't be sure Thomas will even be alive; we know how much Jim likes torturing Harry! :smalleek:


But Jim's second favorite pastime is torturing Thomas if you think about it so i would be more worried about Justine making it to the end.

Eldan
2012-08-21, 01:55 PM
He loves torturing everyone of the good guys. Murphy still wasn't over her trauma from Kravos by the time Changes' end twist happened. And Molly... well. She's Molly.

Dragonus45
2012-08-21, 02:01 PM
He loves torturing everyone of the good guys. Murphy still wasn't over her trauma from Kravos by the time Changes' end twist happened. And Molly... well. She's Molly.

But if i had to list in order of who his favorite victims are i would say thomas is second after harry, followed by molly, then murphy.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-21, 08:00 PM
I think Harry will end up with a sword because according to JB, he's going to take advantage of everything he's got during the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy, including all 3 of his evil offers. Why shouldn't he get someone Good on his side too? Sanya's an ex Denarian, maybe since Harry's so tight with Uriel he could wield a sword and be a Denarian simultaneously.

Speaking of that, I am SO looking forward to Lash vs. Lasciel, whenever that fight happens.

KnightDisciple
2012-08-21, 08:09 PM
[QUOTE=Mauve Shirt;13767041Sanya's an ex Denarian, maybe since Harry's so tight with Uriel he could wield a sword and be a Denarian simultaneously.[/QUOTE]

...Uh, no. I'm pretty sure that's like trying to make a toy house out of Lincoln Logs that are alternatingly made of matter and anti-matter.

Sanya is an ex-Denarian. He cast aside that evil, corrupting power.
The Coins and the Swords are diametrically opposed.

More than that, there's 0 evidence any of the coins contain a Fallen One who's "less evil" enough that they could be trusted (ha!) with a Sword without almost immediately attempting to destroy it.

Honestly, Harry is the Merlin figure in the story of the Swords. He holds them in trust, and he distributes them, but he doesn't wield them, long term.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-21, 08:12 PM
Yeah, true enough. There's enough parallels between Harry and Merlin that I'm pretty sure Harry breaks the time travel rule to become Merlin.
THAT'S WHO GETS AMORACCHIUS I AM A GENIUS.

Aidan305
2012-08-22, 05:06 AM
Yeah, true enough. There's enough parallels between Harry and Merlin that I'm pretty sure Harry breaks the time travel rule to become Merlin.
THAT'S WHO GETS AMORACCHIUS I AM A GENIUS.

Seems legit. We know from WoJ that Harry's going to break all of the laws at one point or another after all.

Eldan
2012-08-22, 05:10 AM
How does he have any parallels with Merlin? (Note: I don't know anything about Merlin).

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-22, 05:39 AM
Of course, if Harry's the original Merlin, then according to another theory he's his own grandpa. That theory being of course that the journals in Eb's office are not only from master to student but from grandfather/father to son.
Going only by the Dresden Files, Merlin founded the white council, wrote all the laws, and was custodian of one sword. Harry founded the gray council, will break all the laws, is custodian of two swords.

Oh, and he's also a guide and mentor for troubled magical youths.

Eldan
2012-08-22, 05:42 AM
Hm. Well, it would be interesting.
If just for the Irony of Harry, of all people, founding the white council.

Though wasn't the white council founded in Rome?

Lamech
2012-08-22, 11:38 AM
...Uh, no. I'm pretty sure that's like trying to make a toy house out of Lincoln Logs that are alternatingly made of matter and anti-matter.
Exactly. Harry could either fight the Outside with a couple of Lincoln logs, or massive anti-matter powered superweapon. :smallamused:

Weimann
2012-08-22, 12:01 PM
Maybe Harry's rifle is his new staff. That'd be awesome.

KnightDisciple
2012-08-22, 01:02 PM
Exactly. Harry could either fight the Outside with a couple of Lincoln logs, or massive anti-matter powered superweapon. :smallamused:You're misinterpreting what I'm saying.

I'm saying those two power sources are fundamentally incompatible. You can't mix them without blowing up the structure (Harry).

Honestly, I hope Harry doesn't take up a Coin. It doesn't seem totally in-character for him. I'd rather he win more on his own skill and power (I was sad enough he took up the Winter Knight mantle, and hope something can be done about that).


Maybe Harry's rifle is his new staff. That'd be awesome. While awesome, it's doubtful. Jim said it doesn't have runes or anything, and that it's just a plain-jane .45 Long Colt Winchester Rifle.

I would imagine he'll either make a new staff, or come up with an alternate focus device (maybe something that requires less juggling of items in his hands).

Eldan
2012-08-22, 01:03 PM
Hm. Lightning Oak rifle stock. Nice idea. Barrel is cold iron anyway, so it would also be a fairy club.

Spamotron
2012-08-22, 03:44 PM
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying.

I'm saying those two power sources are fundamentally incompatible. You can't mix them without blowing up the structure (Harry).

Honestly, I hope Harry doesn't take up a Coin. It doesn't seem totally in-character for him. I'd rather he win more on his own skill and power (I was sad enough he took up the Winter Knight mantle, and hope something can be done about that).

While awesome, it's doubtful. Jim said it doesn't have runes or anything, and that it's just a plain-jane .45 Long Colt Winchester Rifle.

I would imagine he'll either make a new staff, or come up with an alternate focus device (maybe something that requires less juggling of items in his hands).

The most common fan hypothesis about how Harry can take up a coin without becoming a mustache-twirler is that when the time comes Lasciel will attempt to absorb Lash from inside Harry's mind and that will go very poorly for Lasciel. If the presence inside the coin isn't evil anymore it and the sword aren't incompatible anymore. Though I don't think Harry will take up one of the swords either they require a mindset I just don't see Harry ever having.

The harder part is the Darkhallow initially people said oh just do it in an area with no innocent bystanders. But then Changes established that spirits even if they aren't the ghosts of dead humans are still people who can change, grow and have dreams of their own. As such the Darkhallow which devours huge quantities of spirits en mass is pretty damn evil no matter where you do it. One thought is that Harry could empower himself by only devouring evil destructive spirits but that's still pretty damn grey morally speaking, and how does that even remotely sound like a good idea for Harry's sanity?

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-22, 05:45 PM
I love that Lash theory. Those two ARE going to fight, according to WoJ.

"Pretty damn grey" and "not remotely good for Harry's sanity" pretty much describe all of his decisions to date! :smallbiggrin:

Weimann
2012-08-22, 05:46 PM
Honestly, I hope Harry doesn't take up a Coin. It doesn't seem totally in-character for him. I'd rather he win more on his own skill and power (I was sad enough he took up the Winter Knight mantle, and hope something can be done about that).Harry's victories have never (or, well, at least not past the first few books) been a matter of him overcoming his opponents through sheer overpower, despite that being his forte in terms of magic. They have always been messy affairs where his determination, compassion and readiness to make sacrifices have played a huge part in the outcome.

He's practical like that; if he believes he needs a Denarian coin to be able to do what he needs to do, then he will take it up. He'd rather avoid it, of course, but if push comes to shove, then he'll bite the bullet and try to deal. Push him to a sufficiently critical limit, and yeah, I'd call it in character for him.

KnightDisciple
2012-08-22, 05:55 PM
Harry's victories have never (or, well, at least not past the first few books) been a matter of him overcoming his opponents through sheer overpower, despite that being his forte in terms of magic. They have always been messy affairs where his determination, compassion and readiness to make sacrifices have played a huge part in the outcome.

He's practical like that; if he believes he needs a Denarian coin to be able to do what he needs to do, then he will take it up. He'd rather avoid it, of course, but if push comes to shove, then he'll bite the bullet and try to deal. Push him to a sufficiently critical limit, and yeah, I'd call it in character for him.

I mentioned his skill, and his sheer stubbornness is part of his skillset. :smallwink:

To a point, I agree.

My issue is that if he takes up a coin, he will stop being Harry. With the Knight's mantle, we know he's his own person.
(Seven words, remember?)
But with a Coin, there's a very real risk that he'll be lost to the demon, or at the very least adversely affected. We saw how he got more aggressive and temperamental with just the shadow of Lasciel in his brain, a shadow he was affecting as well. But with the Coin, it won't be a small fragment; it will be the full demon. That...would not bode well for Harry staying Harry.

As for that fan theory....eh. Not really a fan of it. :smallsigh:

Eldan
2012-08-22, 06:00 PM
Lasciel will overpower him and make him angry and irrational? Harry will take up a different coin, of course!

I vote for Nikodemus'

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-22, 06:02 PM
The most common fan hypothesis about how Harry can take up a coin without becoming a mustache-twirler is that when the time comes Lasciel will attempt to absorb Lash from inside Harry's mind and that will go very poorly for Lasciel. If the presence inside the coin isn't evil anymore it and the sword aren't incompatible anymore. Though I don't think Harry will take up one of the swords either they require a mindset I just don't see Harry ever having.

I happen to believe ideas like this make the Fallen positively giddy with the opportunities they offer to pervert and ruin you.

While not explicit by the way the Nickelheads should be functioning... the coins themselves have no power to be stolen like this. The Fallen backing it is loaning/expressing its power through the host in exchange for the eventual damnation of the soul involved and opportunity to cause misery and sin on Earth. The Fallen don't want to, they don't have to. Best case would be Lash and Harry blocking out Lasciel, but they'd not be able to use anything from it. More likely Lash 'dies' in an instant.

We already know what the Denarians want and they are worse then anything Harry's yet come across. The weak are playthings for anything stronger, and the strong are daughter-****ing rascist liars that will kill millions/billions for a few evulz without even the delusion of more then pain and suffering as the end.

Endgame for Harry taking up a coin isn't stealing demonic power to punch out Cthulhu... its after that choking out Nick to steal his noose, offing Deidre too, and then giving one those coins to Maggie and Molly (probably over Michael and Charity's corpses) to carry on right where Nick left off. If that makes you feel a little sick to your stomach don't be alarmed, it is only sign that you have properly understood why the Nickelheads are worse then anything else.


The harder part is the Darkhallow initially people said oh just do it in an area with no innocent bystanders. But then Changes established that spirits even if they aren't the ghosts of dead humans are still people who can change, grow and have dreams of their own. As such the Darkhallow which devours huge quantities of spirits en mass is pretty damn evil no matter where you do it. One thought is that Harry could empower himself by only devouring evil destructive spirits but that's still pretty damn grey morally speaking, and how does that even remotely sound like a good idea for Harry's sanity?

People talking about the Darkhallow I find often forget how 'Big Magic' in the Dresdenverse relies on symbolism, emotion, and circumstances. To use something like a curse you have too want the target dead and/or harmed, the morality of the whole affair is a prerequisite and the acts to accomplish something big will play out accordingly. There just isn't going to be a way around committing heinous acts with this

If a savvy guy like Cowl could have performed the rite without something closely resembling the circumstances we saw he would have.

Eldan
2012-08-22, 06:16 PM
Harry could always attempt a Darkhallow in the middle of something like a Fomorian city.

I mean, if he could, he would probalby have done it in the middle of Chichen Itza.

Spamotron
2012-08-22, 06:49 PM
It's still mass murder for the sake of personal power. Also the Fomorians keep slaves and unlike the movies slaves don't stay in one massive pen from which you can free them all. They'll be all over said city doing various jobs. No possible way to evacuate them all.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-22, 07:42 PM
People talking about the Darkhallow I find often forget how 'Big Magic' in the Dresdenverse relies on symbolism, emotion, and circumstances. To use something like a curse you have too want the target dead and/or harmed, the morality of the whole affair is a prerequisite and the acts to accomplish something big will play out accordingly. There just isn't going to be a way around committing heinous acts with this

If a savvy guy like Cowl could have performed the rite without something closely resembling the circumstances we saw he would have.

That, and we know the Darkhallow is powered by the ghosts it consumes. If Dresden does it out in the middle of nowhere like some suggest, either it has no effect because there weren't any spirits to eat, or its radius just expands and causes more devastation until it's hit the Minor God Quota.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-22, 09:22 PM
Quite aside from the ghosts its worth remembering that one of the preparations Cowl made was blacking out Chicago to create a climate of fear. And the Reds at Chitzen Itza had a whole massive murder orgy in the lead up. Truly large scale magic seems to require certain environmental factors to function.

Even aside from the ghosts one needs a certain human population to set the right mood for things. So say Formor or Red Court vamps would not be a substitute (even aside from being technically faeries in the former case) since they wouldn't fit the formula by not being human. To say nothing of the numbers issue.

Aidan305
2012-08-22, 10:08 PM
I came up with an interesting, yet plausible tinfoil hat theory earlier:

There's a third side to the conflict, with whom are involved Mavra and the Formori. Not only that, but Mavra is a mole inside the Black Council working for this third party.

This is based off a few things that we've seen thus far:
Firstly, Mavra and Cowl
These two know each other. We can be fairly certain of that since it's probable that Mavra was the one who taught Bianca sorcery. She was with Bianca, Cowl and Kumori at the Party Where Stuff Happened. A popular theory because of this is that Mavra is involved with the Circle.

However, if this were the case, why is she so adamant in Dead Beat that Cowl not get his hands on the Darkhallow? After all, a win for Cowl is a win for Team Evil, right? Evidently not. Specifically because of Mavra's intervention, Harry entered the fray and stopped the Darkhallow. Since (we believe) Mavra can't use the Darkhallow anyway, it could very well be that this was her plan all along, and getting a powerful grimoire out of it was simply an added bonus.

We've seen from Blood Rites, and its consequences in Dead Beat that Mavra knows how to pull Harry's strings to get him to do what she wants. She knew that he would go after the vampire nest so that she would be able to get the photographs.

I will, at this point, avoid linking to the Chessmaster trope.

Having established that Mavra has worked against the activities of the Circle before, I would like to fast-forward to Changes.

I've stated my theory before that Harry was being used in that book by someone wanting to reduce the influence of the Black Council. The Alliance between the Reds and the Circle has been known since the outsiders were summoned during an attack on the White Council, and given the presence of Cowl and Kumori at The Party it probably goes back a good bit further than that.

The rise of the Formori, as we've seen from Aftermath, was no mere opportunistic grab for power. It was carefully calculated, and it just happened to co-incide with a large power vacuum opening up.

Now, pretty much everyone in the supernatural world considers Harry dangerous, but there are few who understand just how spectacularly lethal he can be if you get him really angry. Marcone, Nicodemus, Mavra, Lara, McCoy, Mab and Lea are the only ones I would consider capable of both understanding this, and understanding how he would react if his daughter were taken.

I don't think that Martin would. Not unless he was prompted by someone else, and I think that someone was Mavra. She placed the idea, and it went forward and the Red Court did something spectacularly stupid. They never took Harry seriously, otherwise they wouldn't have gone near Maggie.

But someone knew what would happen. Someone was working with the Formori to make sure they would be read when the Red Court, the Circle closest ally, fell.


And I'm willing to bet it wasn't the Grey Council.

Spamotron
2012-08-22, 10:31 PM
The main thing that screws with everything is that we know Time Travel magic is possible otherwise there wouldn't be a law against it and a powerful and respected elder mage tasked with enforcing it.

It must be extremely hard, yes. But the Black Council has an extreme amount of power on its side doesn't give a damn about the laws of magic and thematically the entire point of courting Outsiders for power is to do things normal magic won't let you do because they are in a sense "outside" the natural order.

Of course we know that in the future Jim plans to dedicate an entire book to the subject. But the question is why is it just one book and the entire series hasn't been about an intertemporal war?

Actually, how do we know that it hasn't?

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-22, 11:46 PM
You don't have much in the way of time travel because time travel only works to be pretty meaningless with no real changes taking place, you can tell by how everything exists in the first place.

There are abuses to be had but not in to edit history, most certainly not your own, so a villain even if insane enough just won't be able to say rewrite the political situation of the supernatural world.

The worst abuse really useful would be retrieval of something that no longer exists in the present, whether an item or information. Abusable certainly but for presumably a lot of work its kinda a low pay-out as to effect your own time whatever you gain will have to be brought back and used in real time.

(Presumably most villains liking the idea of existing in the first place simply don't bother and those so unhinged are either self-defeating or obtain little benefit)

And Prescience beyond the sort of vaguest of potential plot threads is a trap all its own for anyone but the Big G, just ask Paul Atreides about how badly it sucks.

Spamotron
2012-08-23, 12:46 AM
It let's you do a lot more than that if the foreshadowing in Changes is any indication. Forzare

lord_khaine
2012-08-23, 04:43 AM
Of course, if Harry's the original Merlin, then according to another theory he's his own grandpa. That theory being of course that the journals in Eb's office are not only from master to student but from grandfather/father to son.
Going only by the Dresden Files, Merlin founded the white council, wrote all the laws, and was custodian of one sword. Harry founded the gray council, will break all the laws, is custodian of two swords.

Oh, and he's also a guide and mentor for troubled magical youths.

Ahh, Harry did not found the grey council.

Mauve Shirt
2012-08-23, 05:10 AM
Yeah, I know, the only ones that really work are the sword one, the troubled magical youths one, the inherited journals and the being a wizard. :smalltongue:

Harry and Molly are Cowl and Kumori from the far future gone back in time to destroy the White Council. Harry took up a coin and went evil and also got more powers. He became Kemmler's apprentice. He wanted to start the Vampire War to lead Past Harry into becoming this self. He hadn't tried the Darkhallow in his previous past, and didn't get to complete the Darkhallow on this attempt because he foolishly got caught by his younger self. Kumori doesn't kill Harry because she knows he has to save her life from faeries the following year.
Time travel theories are fun!

Lvl45DM!
2012-08-23, 05:32 AM
It let's you do a lot more than that if the foreshadowing in Changes is any indication. Forzare

What foreshadowing?

hamlet
2012-08-23, 07:55 AM
Ahh, Harry did not found the grey council.

No, but he named it.

And the Black Council.

Among other things.

That seems to be one of Harry's greater powers: naming. Or at least his willingness to name things. It changes a lot of things, even if only in subtle ways and, as best I can tell, there's actual magic in it. Naming the Archive Ivy actually did a bit to change her from the impersonal thing she was to what she became later, and is in the process of becoming (seriously, I see her having a crush on Harry, which could lead to all sorts of ugliness in the road ahead).

Naming Shagnasty and the "Nickleheads" robs them of their gravitas, fear, and power. Not to mention dignity. It diminishes them.

What significance does it have for the story? Don't know. But I think it will later on.

Eldan
2012-08-23, 07:59 AM
Don't forget Uri. That was a good one.

I'm thinking it gives him power over Outsiders. Naming the unnameable, and thereby making it possible to be affected by magic.

hamlet
2012-08-23, 08:42 AM
Don't forget Uri. That was a good one.

I'm thinking it gives him power over Outsiders. Naming the unnameable, and thereby making it possible to be affected by magic.

Indeed, Uriel got upset with Harry because Harry left of the "-el" suffix. That has a whole lot of negative connotations in context. LOTS of them. More than have been commented on than I've seen.

As for Outsiders . . . I dunno. I think that might possibly be part of it, but I don't think that's the entirety of it. A lot more has to do with the runes on Demonreach and the day of his birth and what his mother was planning. Not enough data at this time.

Lord Seth
2012-08-26, 10:51 PM
Looks like I can finally preorder the book now, it now has a release date of November 27.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-27, 12:18 AM
I'm thinking it gives him power over Outsiders. Naming the unnameable, and thereby making it possible to be affected by magic.

While I can't say that this would apply to all of them... Outsiders have names. He Who Walks Behind has an identity and so forth.

More generally I think they have names, we just were made to forget them *BANG*

Thomas: Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

thorgrim29
2012-08-27, 01:21 AM
I still have not read backup.... Probably should be doing that. And yeah, naming things is important, don't forget Bob in dead beat. The day was basically saved because Harry named him, and I'd be willing to bet that Bob's hornyness is a side effect of being the tutor of a powerful hormonal teen who has a rather undefined power to affect stuff he shouldn't be able to.

I don't know about you guys, but I can see Harry pulling a con on the Nickleheads, using them for something gratuitusly destructive and then completely eliminating them. Something to keep in mind regarding trickery is that Loki is still a good-ish guy since Ragnarok hasn't happened yet and Harry is backed by Odin. Speaking of Ragnarok, want to bet that Surtr is hiding in the woodworks?

lord_khaine
2012-08-27, 03:51 AM
I still have not read backup.... Probably should be doing that. And yeah, naming things is important, don't forget Bob in dead beat. The day was basically saved because Harry named him, and I'd be willing to bet that Bob's hornyness is a side effect of being the tutor of a powerful hormonal teen who has a rather undefined power to affect stuff he shouldn't be able to.

Its a personality trait he had long before Harry aquired him, according to comments he has made about seducing shepherdes.

Eldan
2012-08-27, 07:37 AM
Speaking of Ragnarok, want to bet that Surtr is hiding in the woodworks?

The nordic giants actually sound like good candidates for Fomorhood.

hamlet
2012-08-27, 08:36 AM
Speaking of Ragnarok, want to bet that Surtr is hiding in the woodworks?

Harry is Surtr.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-27, 09:00 AM
Its a personality trait he had long before Harry aquired him, according to comments he has made about seducing shepherdes.

Loosely supported by his comments that Kemmler... changed... Bob while he was in possession of the skull.


The nordic giants actually sound like good candidates for Fomorhood.

Well we more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_One) or less (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians) know what the Fomor are but I don't recall everything they were mentioned to be related too.

It is tremendously annoying to me that Even Hand is not in Side Jobs as having read that first would have immensely improved Aftermath in that book.

I still probably unfairly think they are going to be a suspicously similar substitute for the Reds. Not that they are anything alike but in story role. Be a large force to provide a background of trouble, be icky and with zero sympathy points, and probably going to be of minimal actual involvement in the story as it develops. We may well hear more about them then we see.

Eldan
2012-08-27, 10:40 AM
Leah mentioned that they were not just the celtic Fomorians, but that it was a general term for creatures form all over the world that, in their mythologies, lost some kind of war and were banished from the earth. So the giants could fit.

Aidan305
2012-08-27, 12:28 PM
The more I read Ghost Story and Aftermath, the more I find myself desiring to run a post-Changes game set in Ireland, with the Formor trying to take back the land which was once theirs.

Incidentally, has anyone here got any speculation about who Murphy's Royal ancestor might be?

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-28, 10:08 AM
Leah mentioned that they were not just the celtic Fomorians, but that it was a general term for creatures form all over the world that, in their mythologies, lost some kind of war and were banished from the earth. So the giants could fit.

From what I remember of Bob's rant its all far enough back a lot of modern distinctions wouldn't hold because everybody was having "Epic Sex" or whatever.

Still by what they've shown tells us what they really are. Something I find pretty disappointing actually.



Incidentally, has anyone here got any speculation about who Murphy's Royal ancestor might be?

Sure:

http://www.advancedanime.com/pictures/normal_b3e289c316c02582e8148f1e996cc242.jpg

No this doesn't quite actually work... I don't care. Irish mythology overfloweth with characters anyways so there's no way to tell.

....

And well Ireland is close enough that that this:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg60/scaled.php?server=60&filename=fate2176zr.jpg&res=landing

Is just as plausible too. Who says the Murphy's go back entirely on the Emerald Isle, lot of demographic shifts over the centuries you know.

Besides we already have the Merlin end connected...


Which reminds me? Do people think Jim either did not know or did not care that Fidelacchius shouldn't be a katana for what sword it supposedly is?

cucchulainnn
2012-08-28, 10:15 AM
might be an O'Brien or O'Niel. the O'Briens are decent from Brian Boru and the O'Niels where the last high kings of tara before boru took over. and then it went back to the O'niels after Boru's death, or U'niel as they where called at the time. also the O'niels where the most common rebel leaders against the english over the centuries.

an other thing, is that high kings of tara where voted in, so there was not a specific family just some that where far more common then others.

there are a lot of options from irish myth considering the authors disposition to use myth.

Míl Espáine, (Milesians) the guy who conquered ireland from the Tuatha Dé Danann in prehistory establishing tara as the seat of it's kings. that would set her as a natural enemy of the fay courts. giving lots of future plot hooks

Milesian Genealogies
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/history/milesian.html

a quick google search show that clann murphy claim direct decent from the mileasians. :)

http://www.clanmurphy.com/clanhistory.html

and i quote

"Clan History

The surname Murphy or in Irish, O Murchadha (meaning strong or superior), anglicised O'Murchoe and finally anglicised to it’s present form, Murphy, traces it origin from Milesians, King of Spain, through the line of his son, Heremon the first absolute King of Ireland, 504 BC. The Murphy Clan, or ancient term Hy Felimy, i.e. descendant to Felimy, so called as they descended from Feidhlim, son of the celebrated Enna Kinsellagh, King of Laighlin (i.e. province of Leinster), in the fifth century and in direct line from Dermot McMurrough, King of the Province of Leinster 1110 Ad to 1171 AD. The family name of the chieftain of the Murphy Clan is called "the O Morchoe". The family motto is "Fortes et Hospitatis", meaning Strong and Hospitable, a second motto, "to conquer rather than die" is also associated with the name. The surname Murphy and the variant forms is the most common surname in the whole of Ireland. "

Eldan
2012-08-28, 10:19 AM
It has been mentioned in the books that the swords can be reforged into new shapes, which was also the explanation for one of them being a Katana.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-28, 10:44 AM
*awesome research*

Thanks a bunch Lancer, I think we have an answer.


It has been mentioned in the books that the swords can be reforged into new shapes, which was also the explanation for one of them being a Katana.

Yes though this is well, of dubious value. See a katana has a specific forging process and structure as a result. So I'm not sure one could "reforge" a different sword into being and not without essentially completely melting down and destroying it and recycling some materials which potentially raises Ship of Theseus issues.

Mind you if its just the shape that's another matter but that makes it a "katana" in the same way those overpriced ones you buy in the asian theme knick-knack shops are.

Of course doesn't mean its a less effective weapon if it was made with actual decent metal stock in the first place. The katana only exists like it does because Japan has such poor iron and they made the best of it. Its already canon that, having a Bloody Nail of the Savior of Mankind worked into them means they can't really be destroyed anyways. Presumably this also wards off rust and dullness.

I really do just hand wave these issue (A wizard did it!) just kinda wondering if anyone's ever posed the question to him or considered it.

KnightDisciple
2012-08-28, 12:04 PM
Well, if he does a book signing here in KC (pretty likely since he lives here), I'll try to remember that question and ask him.

Dragonus45
2012-08-28, 12:42 PM
Thanks a bunch Lancer, I think we have an answer.



Yes though this is well, of dubious value. See a katana has a specific forging process and structure as a result. So I'm not sure one could "reforge" a different sword into being and not without essentially completely melting down and destroying it and recycling some materials which potentially raises Ship of Theseus issues.

Mind you if its just the shape that's another matter but that makes it a "katana" in the same way those overpriced ones you buy in the asian theme knick-knack shops are.

Of course doesn't mean its a less effective weapon if it was made with actual decent metal stock in the first place. The katana only exists like it does because Japan has such poor iron and they made the best of it. Its already canon that, having a Bloody Nail of the Savior of Mankind worked into them means they can't really be destroyed anyways. Presumably this also wards off rust and dullness.

I really do just hand wave these issue (A wizard did it!) just kinda wondering if anyone's ever posed the question to him or considered it.

I think destroyed and reforged applies to the shell around the nail. As long as the nail survives a new sword forged with the nail as its core. So it could be a properly forged traditional katana instead of a cheap knockoff.

cucchulainnn
2012-08-28, 01:43 PM
I think destroyed and reforged applies to the shell around the nail. As long as the nail survives a new sword forged with the nail as its core. So it could be a properly forged traditional katana instead of a cheap knockoff.

yes, but the process of forging a katana is all about starting out with a billet and repeatedly folding it to draw out impurities. this would mean adding it as an initial layer in the billet. which means that it will be thinned and spread between the layers. after so many folds it stops being a nail and become incorporated into the base metal. sure a piece of paper is wood but it has been preprocessed to the point that is is not a board.

unless you are saying that a cavity is left in the sword some place which contains the nail. for instance under the grip? which is what i assume and how i would do it as the smith. such as the spear of destiny have a nail still recognizable as nails.

http://qph.cf.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5d5386d7f55cbf80a4f56f8ca8614154

Soras Teva Gee, thanks,:smallbiggrin:
i am big into mythology and folk tails which is one of the reasons i enjoy these books. it just fits, not sure if he will do it that way. i hope he dose it would be really cool, fertile ground for problems for harry to navigate. especially as the knight of winter.

i can easily see the monarchs of the of never never tolerating a daughter of Miles but once she has a holy sword it becomes a completely different situation. old grievances for the descendants of the destroyer of their civilization bubbling up. according to irish myths the children of Miles drove the Tuatha Dé Danann out of the mortal world forcing them to live under hills, equivalent of the never never. which according to most related folk tails is the reason most fairies/leprechaun/elves are malevolent.

she is a decedent of the destroyer and now has the means to wreak havoc.

BRC
2012-08-28, 02:06 PM
IIRC the Nail is worked into the Hilt of the sword, not the blade itself.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-28, 02:57 PM
Its been awhile but I've always taken worked into the hilt as still referring to the part of the hilt that is still the same piece of metal as the blade. Not merely strapped into the decorations.

Eldan
2012-08-28, 03:33 PM
Could be either. Anyway, it wouldn't really be Kusanagi anymore.

Also, isn't Kusanagi still around? Or a sword that's claimed to be Kusanagi?

hamlet
2012-08-28, 04:24 PM
Could be either. Anyway, it wouldn't really be Kusanagi anymore.

Also, isn't Kusanagi still around? Or a sword that's claimed to be Kusanagi?

My understanding has always been that it's not the "real" Kusanagi (or Exaclibur or Durnendal), but the "idea" of that blade, so it has a certain kind of realness to it that, for the function it serves, is as suitable if not more so than actually being that physical blade.

That . . . made little sense.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-28, 04:25 PM
In on of the bigger temples in Japan supposedly has it under lock and key yeah. There's been more then a few incidents in the swords history though make it well.... Shroud of Turin case all over again

Of course you can supposedly actually go and see Durandal sticking out of a cliff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durandal).

Obviously the Dresdenverse picks and choses which particular parts of myths are true. Which is evident simply by making the identification, I think Kusanagi as Ame-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi is supposed to predate Imperial line and by extension Anno Domini going from when Susanoo cut it out of Orochi, and even Yamato Takeru if taken to be historical is within a century of Christ's death.

BRC
2012-08-28, 04:31 PM
while Michael's sword is supposedly Excalibur, we have no evidence that any of the other sword are famous historically. And with the whole "Reforging" thing, we have no way of tracing any of those swords to their current forms. One of the swords is a Katana now, but it may not always have been.

hamlet
2012-08-28, 04:39 PM
Darned board errors.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-28, 04:57 PM
while Michael's sword is supposedly Excalibur, we have no evidence that any of the other sword are famous historically. And with the whole "Reforging" thing, we have no way of tracing any of those swords to their current forms. One of the swords is a Katana now, but it may not always have been.

So you haven't read or missed that page in Ghost Story?

BRC
2012-08-28, 05:40 PM
So you haven't read or missed that page in Ghost Story?
Apparently I have not.

datalaughing
2012-10-31, 05:04 PM
I'm pulling for Harry/Elaine.

For anyone who wasn't aware, Jim just posted the first chapter of Cold Days on his website (http://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/cold-days-14/cold-days-ch-1) and will be posting a new chapter each week till the book comes out. Though I understand that the first two chapters have already been released in the paperback of Ghost Story. I must try to find those online somewhere or else go down to the book store and treat it like a library for a bit.


Apparently I have not.

In Ghost Story a ghost refers to the three swords as Excalibur, Durendal, and Kusanagi. A quick Google reveals that Durendal was the sword of Charlemagne's paladin Roland and has a cool story attached to it, while Kusanagi is a sword of Japanese legend with lots of cool stories attached.

Maugan Ra
2012-10-31, 08:15 PM
Well... he's very good at writing what the Fae should be like, I'll admit that. Because damn, Mab is somehow managing to be funny, sexy, terrifying and confusing at the same time.

Socratov
2012-11-01, 03:21 AM
Well... he's very good at writing what the Fae should be like, I'll admit that. Because damn, Mab is somehow managing to be funny, sexy, terrifying and confusing at the same time.

which is why she's on some level exactly my favorite character. I can't wait to see it cold days published completely. It woudl certainly put my reading of Sherlock Holmes on hold :smallamused:

and it is believed that Kusanagi is currently owned by the japanese royal family along with the matagama and soem other artefacts that are not shared or shown publicly. though this might just be another rumour.

Weimann
2012-11-01, 07:17 AM
That chapter was pretty great.

I took notice of one line in particular, though."Mab couldn’t kill a mortal, but to her I was no longer one of them."

I thought the whole point of the Winter and Summer Knights were that they did formally count as mortals?

Socratov
2012-11-01, 07:24 AM
That chapter was pretty great.

I took notice of one line in particular, though."Mab couldn’t kill a mortal, but to her I was no longer one of them."

I thought the whole point of the Winter and Summer Knights were that they did formally count as mortals?

Ehm, yeah, the thing is: knights are still 'kind of' mortal, but bound to the queens while 'regular' mortals are not bound to anyone so Mab can't really affect them unless she has a hold over them (like some kind of favor ir servitude). Long story short, Harry is Mab's proverbial bitch and ultimate toy/plaything. Besides, mot times a dose of power comes with attached 'benefits'.

Edit: I curse you Jim. I curse you. You've got me hooked again and now I can't wait anymore, just as I had gone cold turkey... I curse you! *stomps away frustrated*

Maugan Ra
2012-11-01, 10:30 AM
It does not surprise me that the position of "Knight of the [Season] Court" means that it's current occupant counts as mortal in all ways that would be advantageous for the Sidhe Queens, and not mortal in any way that would present an inconvenience for them.

Because, you know. Fae.

datalaughing
2012-11-01, 07:45 PM
What I'm wondering is, does Harry still qualify as a mortal wizard for the purposes of the White Council? If he were to break one of the laws of magic now, would they still come and kill him, or does he have sort of diplomatic immunity where they wouldn't want to kill him and start a fight with Winter?

Thrawn183
2012-11-01, 09:05 PM
What I'm wondering is, does Harry still qualify as a mortal wizard for the purposes of the White Council? If he were to break one of the laws of magic now, would they still come and kill him, or does he have sort of diplomatic immunity where they wouldn't want to kill him and start a fight with Winter?

It would probably fall somewhere inbetween, "Hey, let's not piss off Mab. That's always a bad idea." and "Oh no, he's going warlock. We gotta finish this before he becomes even more powerful!"

Take from that what you will.

Mauve Shirt
2012-11-01, 09:16 PM
He might not be allowed to be a Warden anymore... Kind of a conflict of interest probably. And they wouldn't want to chop his head off now. He can probably bargain for Molly's release from the Doom, but that would be TOO EASY.

Sinfonian
2012-11-01, 09:28 PM
He might not be allowed to be a Warden anymore... Kind of a conflict of interest probably. And they wouldn't want to chop his head off now. He can probably bargain for Molly's release from the Doom, but that would be TOO EASY.
Indeed, Harry isn't allowed for anything (positive) to be easy for him.

It's also possible that despite his affection for Molly, he might understand that she might not be ready to be free of the Doom after how he saw how she was in Ghost Story. I'm personally interested in hearing what will happen when Molly is brought back before the Council at some point, given that it's pretty explicit that she has seriously violated her probation (and not just in her actions in the Big Reveal in Book 13).

I'm really looking forward to the new release, since dealing with the particulars of Harry rejoining the world of the living will be most interesting.

Socratov
2012-11-02, 02:04 AM
Indeed, Harry isn't allowed for anything (positive) to be easy for him.

It's also possible that despite his affection for Molly, he might understand that she might not be ready to be free of the Doom after how he saw how she was in Ghost Story. I'm personally interested in hearing what will happen when Molly is brought back before the Council at some point, given that it's pretty explicit that she has seriously violated her probation (and not just in her actions in the Big Reveal in Book 13).

I'm really looking forward to the new release, since dealing with the particulars of Harry rejoining the world of the living will be most interesting.

I can tell you what will happen: chaos will ensue. And I mean, total utter chaos. **** will hit the fan like never before. I mean what is probably the worst idea to do with a trigger happy evocation specialist wizard? giving him more power. and ofcourse more power. i'm curious as to what his powerbump will be: is it something like incantatrix where he has total hax now, or more like doubling his manabar?

datalaughing
2012-11-02, 05:11 AM
given that it's pretty explicit that she has seriously violated her probation.

I don't know that that's true. I mean, the big reveal at the end doesn't count. You're allowed to go into someone's mind with their permission. Otherwise there would have been no way to legally fix the stuff Peabody did back in Turn Coat.

And she hasn't killed anyone with magic. She's used magic to trick people into killing each other or maybe getting themselves killed, but that's not a violation of the laws. I mean, I know it's a thin line, but you can see the same distinction in the way the wardens operate. They're allowed to use magic to subdue a warlock and hold him in place, but the actual killing part has to be with a sword or a gun or something equally non-magical.

I think she's actually followed Harry's example and tried hard to fight evil without technically violating any of the laws of magic. Though I will say she's tread a lot more closely to the line than Harry typically does.

Feytalist
2012-11-02, 05:36 AM
Thing is, since she's already under the Doom, the Wardens will be actively waiting for her to step out of line, just like with Harry. Even treading the line might be enough for them to prosecute her.

Socratov
2012-11-02, 06:30 AM
I don't know that that's true. I mean, the big reveal at the end doesn't count. You're allowed to go into someone's mind with their permission. Otherwise there would have been no way to legally fix the stuff Peabody did back in Turn Coat.

And she hasn't killed anyone with magic. She's used magic to trick people into killing each other or maybe getting themselves killed, but that's not a violation of the laws. I mean, I know it's a thin line, but you can see the same distinction in the way the wardens operate. They're allowed to use magic to subdue a warlock and hold him in place, but the actual killing part has to be with a sword or a gun or something equally non-magical.

I think she's actually followed Harry's example and tried hard to fight evil without technically violating any of the laws of magic. Though I will say she's tread a lot more closely to the line than Harry typically does.

No, it is said that damaged minds have the chance (if the damage is not too severe) to repair themselves. (Something about minds going back into their natural state if left alone enough).

Sinfonian
2012-11-02, 09:39 AM
And she hasn't killed anyone with magic. She's used magic to trick people into killing each other or maybe getting themselves killed, but that's not a violation of the laws. I mean, I know it's a thin line, but you can see the same distinction in the way the wardens operate. They're allowed to use magic to subdue a warlock and hold him in place, but the actual killing part has to be with a sword or a gun or something equally non-magical.
I'm pretty sure that using magic in a way that directly leads to the death of a mortal counts as a violation. I can't be absolutely certain, but I remember Harry reflecting that using a blast of force against someone who then falls off a roof and dies counts (or it could have been starting a fire, which then burns people to death, I can't quite recall). The fall (or the building fire) might be the direct cause of death, rather than the magic itself, but it is a foreseeable consequence of the spell. And that's aside from the fact that they might not accept the offered excuse of a convicted warlock that some of the more direct killings were done by the Leanansidhe using the Rag Lady persona. Oh, and even though she's unlikely to have to deal with it anymore, it's clear that she violated the Law with Captain Luccio.


I can tell you what will happen: chaos will ensue. And I mean, total utter chaos. **** will hit the fan like never before. I mean what is probably the worst idea to do with a trigger happy evocation specialist wizard? giving him more power. and ofcourse more power. i'm curious as to what his powerbump will be: is it something like incantatrix where he has total hax now, or more like doubling his manabar?

Minor nitpick: Harry is not an evocation specialist, despite the fairly prominent use of that kind of magic. He says several times in the series that he's actually not especially good with them, which is why he needs his staff, blasting rod, and shield bracelet. He makes up for it by having a lot of innate power that he can throw behind the spells. Harry's personal talent is actually thaumaturgy.

Socratov
2012-11-02, 09:49 AM
I'm pretty sure that using magic in a way that directly leads to the death of a mortal counts as a violation. I can't be absolutely certain, but I remember Harry reflecting that using a blast of force against someone who then falls off a roof and dies counts (or it could have been starting a fire, which then burns people to death, I can't quite recall). The fall (or initial fire spell) might be the direct cause of death, rather than the magic itself, but it is a directly foreseeable consequence of the spell. And that's aside from the fact that they might not accept the offered excuse of a convicted warlock that some of the more direct killings were done by the Leanansidhe using the Rag Lady persona.



Minor nitpick: Harry is not an evocation specialist, despite the fairly prominent use of that kind of magic. He says several times in the series that he's actually not especially good with them, which is why he needs his staff, blasting rod, and shield bracelet. He makes up for it by having a lot of innate power that he can throw behind the spells. Harry's personal talent is actually thaumaturgy.

While true, he does grow astoundingly in using evocation. He uses his spells more efficiently, he crafts better rods and other foci and uses more powerful spells. He definately isn't in the beginning, however, gets close towards the end...

Sinfonian
2012-11-02, 10:11 AM
It doesn't hurt that he wields hellfire for three books (four, if you count when he wasn't using it on purpose). Then, once he loses that, gains access to soulfire in the following book.

Edit: I'm putting that in a spoiler, because it's nothing but. The previous stuff I said was either easy to figure out from general knowledge about the books, or was vague. But that pretty much spoils no fewer than 3 books.

datalaughing
2012-11-02, 12:59 PM
No, it is said that damaged minds have the chance (if the damage is not too severe) to repair themselves. (Something about minds going back into their natural state if left alone enough).
The book specifically says that the Merlin, the Gatekeeper, and Injun Joe were investigating what had been done to people, which involved going into their minds because one line says, "near every Warden under the age of fifty had been programmed with that go-to-sleep trance command, and it had been done so smoothly and subtly that it was difficult to detect even when the master wizards were looking and knew where to find it." I don't know where they'd be finding it if not in their minds.

Then the next paragraph goes on to say, "Several of them, apparently, had been intended to become the supernatural equivalent of suicide bombers—the way Luccio had been. Repairing that kind of damage was difficult, unpredictable, and often painful to the victim." Those people definitely aren't going back to normal on their own.


it's clear that she violated the Law with Captain Luccio.
This is true, but the only living people who know about that are Harry and Molly. Morgan knew, but as he was dying he said he never told anyone. So that's covered for now at least. Also, I think there's a difference between pushing someone off a roof or starting a fire and tricking someone else into killing someone. In your examples there's no one else making a choice. When Molly makes it look like someone is holding a gun instead of a bag of money, it's the other person's choice to shoot that person instead of running away or something, and she's a little vague on if she's been mainly engineering the deaths of turtlenecks or regular people. The turtlenecks don't count as human any more, like vampires who used to be human no longer count. So if she made it look like the turtleneck had a gun and the cop shot him but then the turtleneck also shot the cop before dying, can you say that her magic caused the cop to die? I think it's way too grey to make a call on that.


Thing is, since she's already under the Doom, the Wardens will be actively waiting for her to step out of line, just like with Harry. Even treading the line might be enough for them to prosecute her.
Well, they were already hunting her in Ghost Story since Harry was thought to be dead. I wonder if they will stop now that he's back. Lea was taking over his job of training her while he was out of commission. So does he just step back in and she becomes his apprentice again? It seems like being apprentice to the Winter Knight will be rather different.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-11-02, 02:04 PM
This is true, but the only living people who know about that are Harry and Molly. Morgan knew, but as he was dying he said he never told anyone. So that's covered for now at least. Also, I think there's a difference between pushing someone off a roof or starting a fire and tricking someone else into killing someone. In your examples there's no one else making a choice. When Molly makes it look like someone is holding a gun instead of a bag of money, it's the other person's choice to shoot that person instead of running away or something, and she's a little vague on if she's been mainly engineering the deaths of turtlenecks or regular people. The turtlenecks don't count as human any more, like vampires who used to be human no longer count. So if she made it look like the turtleneck had a gun and the cop shot him but then the turtleneck also shot the cop before dying, can you say that her magic caused the cop to die? I think it's way too grey to make a call on that.

I think we all know what the Council would say here. The only thing grey they have are the cloaks the Warden's wear when they premptively chop off your head just to be sure. Fortunately presumably don't know about that stuff. (And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)

Though Molly probably clears the "mechanical" aspect of how the Laws of Magic cover magic that is inherently corrupting.


Well, they were already hunting her in Ghost Story since Harry was thought to be dead. I wonder if they will stop now that he's back. Lea was taking over his job of training her while he was out of commission. So does he just step back in and she becomes his apprentice again? It seems like being apprentice to the Winter Knight will be rather different.

Well hunting her in the sense that Ramirez popped by once or twice.

Given that its Molly not Harry she *might* even catch a break. And they are looking for her to because someone like Ebenezar has agreed to take over for Harry. Or there's going to be something to release to the relationship like when Harry left the Ozarks. Not likely but there. It would explain how Ramirez is able to drag his feet on the matter, she's not actually a wanted woman per say.

Sinfonian
2012-11-02, 02:50 PM
(And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)

I honestly can't tell what you mean by this. Can you rephrase?

PairO'Dice Lost
2012-11-02, 03:23 PM
I honestly can't tell what you mean by this. Can you rephrase?

I believe that's supposed to be "(And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that she would turn out to be some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)." As in, the Council regards Dresden as an all-power no-finesse warlock-in-the-making who couldn't train an apprentice to save his life and Molly as a weak one trick pony warlock-in-the-making who's only dangerous because her one trick happens to be against the Laws of Magic--it wouldn't even cross their mind that the powerful, mysterious, competent wizard protecting Chicago would be the whiny emo goth apprenticed to the evil loose cannon.

Socratov
2012-11-03, 06:11 AM
I believe that's supposed to be "(And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that she would turn out to be some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)." As in, the Council regards Dresden as an all-power no-finesse warlock-in-the-making who couldn't train an apprentice to save his life and Molly as a weak one trick pony warlock-in-the-making who's only dangerous because her one trick happens to be against the Laws of Magic--it wouldn't even cross their mind that the powerful, mysterious, competent wizard protecting Chicago would be the whiny emo goth apprenticed to the evil loose cannon.

Ofcourse not. That would involve common sense :smallamused:

Let alone involvement of the fey to factor into the equation :smallbiggrin:

Somebloke
2012-11-03, 09:29 AM
The real question with Molly is- Jim is cruel, but is he cruel enough for Harry to be the one to put an out-of-control Molly down?

One thing I can predict that at some point-maybe not now, but maybe later- Harry is going to have to throw down against his friends- Murphy, the alphas, etc. possibly under Lashiel's influence or similar.

thorgrim29
2012-11-03, 10:19 AM
The thing is, Harry is pretty far out of the weight class of most of his friends, excluding McCoy and Sanya if he's acting under orders from upstairs, even more so now that he's the winter knight. Hell, as winter knight, he'd presumably be able to survive hand to hand with murphy long enough to use magic, he's now physically much stronger and tougher, and has more magic then before. With Morgan gone, he's stronger if less experienced then the wardens vets, he'd toss the alphas around like rag dolls, etc... The only "good" guys I can see going against him now with a fair shot of winning are the senior council members, a bunch of wardens at once, or Sanya.

Sinfonian
2012-11-03, 11:25 AM
The thing is, Harry is pretty far out of the weight class of most of his friends, excluding McCoy and Sanya if he's acting under orders from upstairs, even more so now that he's the winter knight. Hell, as winter knight, he'd presumably be able to survive hand to hand with murphy long enough to use magic, he's now physically much stronger and tougher, and has more magic then before. With Morgan gone, he's stronger if less experienced then the wardens vets, he'd toss the alphas around like rag dolls, etc... The only "good" guys I can see going against him now with a fair shot of winning are the senior council members, a bunch of wardens at once, or Sanya.
Don't forget Kincaid. He's done it once already. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they had Harry deal with a similar situation again in the future to show how far he has come since his return.

With regard to Molly, I think that should would not be beyond consideration from the White Council in the actions taken by the Rag Lady. They've shown a propensity in the past to immediately suspect those who have previously crossed the line. The FIRST person they'd suspect of violating the Laws would be the person that they already had convicted of doing so in the past.

Eldan
2012-11-03, 11:42 AM
The thing is, Harry is pretty far out of the weight class of most of his friends, excluding McCoy and Sanya if he's acting under orders from upstairs, even more so now that he's the winter knight. Hell, as winter knight, he'd presumably be able to survive hand to hand with murphy long enough to use magic, he's now physically much stronger and tougher, and has more magic then before. With Morgan gone, he's stronger if less experienced then the wardens vets, he'd toss the alphas around like rag dolls, etc... The only "good" guys I can see going against him now with a fair shot of winning are the senior council members, a bunch of wardens at once, or Sanya.

Where the exact benefits of knighthood ever mentioned in any of the books? I can't recall it. Are physical upgrades included? Maybe they are tailored to the knigth in question, and Harry would mostly get wintery magic?

Hm. Harry throwing ice instead of fire would be interesting.

Sinfonian
2012-11-03, 12:04 PM
Hm. Harry throwing ice instead of fire would be interesting.

He showed a pretty good instinct for that in Changes, with what we saw. It was at its best when he was mixing it with his standard repertoire.

And you're right, there's no indication what being a Knight really means, aside from being accountable to the Queen of their Court. Harry, for one thing, feels it unjust that he has not been granted some degree of resistance to cold.

Lamech
2012-11-03, 12:26 PM
Where the exact benefits of knighthood ever mentioned in any of the books? I can't recall it. Are physical upgrades included? Maybe they are tailored to the knigth in question, and Harry would mostly get wintery magic?

Hm. Harry throwing ice instead of fire would be interesting.

The first winter knight we see is much physically tougher. I think he eats a nasty blast from Harry unscathed. And he takes a huge whirlwind of ice for the Winter Lady to stop. I think Harry noted increased physical strength. And Harry got cool new ice magic.

Of course, this does come with the flaw of being faerie magic. The first winter knight had a rough time of it the second someone brought a piece of steel across his spine. Which means winter knight Harry still needs to be afraid of steel jacketed rounds.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-11-03, 03:13 PM
I believe that's supposed to be "(And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that she would turn out to be some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)." As in, the Council regards Dresden as an all-power no-finesse warlock-in-the-making who couldn't train an apprentice to save his life and Molly as a weak one trick pony warlock-in-the-making who's only dangerous because her one trick happens to be against the Laws of Magic--it wouldn't even cross their mind that the powerful, mysterious, competent wizard protecting Chicago would be the whiny emo goth apprenticed to the evil loose cannon.

Pretty much, and its more likely they have no idea about there being a Rag Lady period.



With regard to Molly, I think that should would not be beyond consideration from the White Council in the actions taken by the Rag Lady. They've shown a propensity in the past to immediately suspect those who have previously crossed the line. The FIRST person they'd suspect of violating the Laws would be the person that they already had convicted of doing so in the past.

If they sent someone out to investigate a case she was involved in and were able to correctly deduce that it was magic involved. It would require actual effort to distinguish the cause, especially as Molly is not just hitting the mind rape button but playing with less direct methods.

Otherwise the reports the Council has are probably along the lines of "probable Fomor agents turn up dead often in Chicago" mixed with several conflicting rumors on how/why this occurred. And it gets sorted to the bottom of the stack because Chicago is doing rather well all considered compared to the hundred fronts the White Council is busy covering.

If they haven't even just written off Chicago since they don't have a resident Warden anymore. And aren't getting anything but what Murphy and the Paranet are feeding to Rodriguez.

Sinfonian
2012-11-03, 04:24 PM
Rodriguez
I think you mean Ramirez. He would be most offended that someone as charming and talented as himself would be taken as forgettable enough to get his name wrong. :smalltongue:

The one Rodriguez in the story is most thoroughly gone, now.

Eldan
2012-11-03, 04:42 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about that. If I'm not mistaken, Thou shalt not raise the dead (or somesuch) is one of hte laws of magic. Which seems to imply that it's possible, or at least that people have attempted it.

The Glyphstone
2012-11-03, 04:44 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about that. If I'm not mistaken, Thou shalt not raise the dead (or somesuch) is one of hte laws of magic. Which seems to imply that it's possible, or at least that people have attempted it.

Not raising the dead specifically, but Necromancy - summoning and binding the unwilling spirits of the dead. Plus, since she was a Vampire when she was killed, there wouldn't be anything to summon back anymore.

123456789blaaa
2012-11-03, 09:28 PM
Not raising the dead specifically, but Necromancy - summoning and binding the unwilling spirits of the dead. <snip>.

There is actually some confusion on this. In the RPG they say that you bind really dumb spirits from the NN so...

The Glyphstone
2012-11-03, 09:39 PM
There is actually some confusion on this. In the RPG they say that you bind really dumb spirits from the NN so...

Which makes no sense, because the very first book of the series is where Harry gets one over on Morgan by pointing out that the Laws of Magic don't apply to creatures of the NeverNever, or non-humans in general. So if Necromancy involved binding Nevernever spirits, there wouldn't be a Law against it. Or did I misunderstand what you're saying?

Lamech
2012-11-03, 10:26 PM
Not raising the dead specifically, but Necromancy - summoning and binding the unwilling spirits of the dead. Plus, since she was a Vampire when she was killed, there wouldn't be anything to summon back anymore.


There are a couple of renditions of the 5th law. There is reaching beyond the "boarder of life and death". Only applicable to humans of course.
And then there is the "summoning and binding the unwilling spirits of the dead." Again the part about humans only is left unmentioned.

If you note the first definition doesn't qualify anything with "unwilling". Reaching across those boarders is badness period. No exception for bringing back gangbangers who got shot in a drug war. The second definition on the other hand lets you raise anyone who want as long as they are willing.

And of course, there are rumors of necromancers raising the dead, and we see one of the necromancers do exactly that in dead beat.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-11-03, 11:50 PM
I think you mean Ramirez. He would be most offended that someone as charming and talented as himself would be taken as forgettable enough to get his name wrong. :smalltongue:

The one Rodriguez in the story is most thoroughly gone, now.

Well at least the Rodriguez in the story is more experienced then the Ramirez...

but yeah and I've had those names crossed like ALL DAY to boot. Gahhh.

Somebloke
2012-11-04, 07:40 AM
You know, as time goes on the world changes, with new fads and cultural shifts, it is important for the Dresden Files to stay abreast of these so as to continue building a realistic, recognizable world.

With that in mind, I have one serious question that I expect Jim to answer in this new book:

What does Bob think of Fifty Shades of Grey?

123456789blaaa
2012-11-04, 04:50 PM
Which makes no sense, because the very first book of the series is where Harry gets one over on Morgan by pointing out that the Laws of Magic don't apply to creatures of the NeverNever, or non-humans in general. So if Necromancy involved binding Nevernever spirits, there wouldn't be a Law against it. Or did I misunderstand what you're saying?

You didn't. I don't get it either. I suppose the RPG guys just messed up *shrugs*. Unfortunately this damages the credibility of using the RPG as evidence for speculation on the books :smallfrown:.

EDIT: though he does say in the first book that the "binding" Law is the only one that applies to nonhumans.

The Glyphstone
2012-11-04, 05:01 PM
You know, as time goes on the world changes, with new fads and cultural shifts, it is important for the Dresden Files to stay abreast of these so as to continue building a realistic, recognizable world.

With that in mind, I have one serious question that I expect Jim to answer in this new book:

What does Bob think of Fifty Shades of Grey?

He thinks Harlequin Romances are quality literature, I'm pretty sure FSoG is right up his alley.


You didn't. I don't get it either. I suppose the RPG guys just messed up *shrugs*. Unfortunately this damages the credibility of using the RPG as evidence for speculation on the books :smallfrown:.

EDIT: though he does say in the first book that the "binding" Law is the only one that applies to nonhumans.

I think you've got it backwards - that scene is where he says the 'Binding' law - "Thou Shall Not Enthrall Another" specifically doesn't apply to nonhumans, with Toot-Toot. The prohibition against Necromancy is a separate Law.

123456789blaaa
2012-11-04, 05:09 PM
I think you've got it backwards - that scene is where he says the 'Binding' law - "Thou Shall Not Enthrall Another" specifically doesn't apply to nonhumans, with Toot-Toot. The prohibition against Necromancy is a separate Law.

I am tragically seperated from my books right now but IIRC Harry specifically points out that putting Toot-Toot in the circle with his Name is specifically not a violation of the "Binding" Law to Morrigan.

Remember that scene when Harry is fighting with Victor where Harry uses Kalshazzacks Name and specifically points out that he won't control him? He just lets Kalshazzak free because he doesn't want to break the "binding" Law.

The Glyphstone
2012-11-04, 05:15 PM
I am tragically seperated from my books right now but IIRC Harry specifically points out that putting Toot-Toot in the circle with his Name is specifically not a violation of the "Binding" Law to Morrigan.

Remember that scene when Harry is fighting with Victor where Harry uses Kalshazzacks Name and specifically points out that he won't control him? He just lets Kalshazzak free because he doesn't want to break the "binding" Law.

I thought that was just because he didn't want to be ordering a demon around, not because it would be a violation of the 4th law - though the Wiki article does say this is implied to extend to Nevernever denizens.

123456789blaaa
2012-11-04, 05:29 PM
I thought that was just because he didn't want to be ordering a demon around, not because it would be a violation of the 4th law - though the Wiki article does say this is implied to extend to Nevernever denizens.

If it helps, I've been using this interpretation of the binding Law on the DF forums and no one has said I'm wrong yet (142 posts).

It also seems strange to me that Harry would risk having his head bitten off and a dangerous warlock going free because he thinks controlling a demon is "icky".

The Glyphstone
2012-11-04, 05:46 PM
If it helps, I've been using this interpretation of the binding Law on the DF forums and no one has said I'm wrong yet (142 posts).

It also seems strange to me that Harry would risk having his head bitten off and a dangerous warlock going free because he thinks controlling a demon is "icky".

It's Harry. He went through lots of effort in the first few books to keep Hell from getting its hooks into him, right up until the Denarians came into play and Hell proper just sort of got forgotten about. I don't find it terribly out of character for him to undo the bindings and just let it rampage, since he knew it'd go after its summoner anyways.

Thrawn183
2012-11-04, 05:56 PM
I'm pretty sure there's a difference between containing a creature in a magical circle (edit, and negotiating with it for its services) and binding it to your will.

datalaughing
2012-11-04, 10:11 PM
Harry actually says both, that the law only applies to humans and that he wasn't binding Toot-Toot. Here's the quote from the book:

"Evening, Morgan. You know as well as I do that those laws apply to mortals. Not faeries. Especially for something as trivial as I just did. And I didn't break the Fourth Law. He had the choice whether to take my deal or not."
He says that the laws only apply to humans, but then his next statement makes it sound like exactly the opposite is true. It's weird. Then during the fight with the demon he reinforces again that they don't only apply to humans:

"The Fourth Law of Magic forbids the binding of any being against its will,""So I stepped in and cut your control over it. And didn't establish any of my own."

PairO'Dice Lost
2012-11-04, 10:20 PM
He says that the laws only apply to humans, but then his next statement makes it sound like exactly the opposite is true. It's weird.

I believe his point is that the Law makes the distinction between mind-controlling another human and binding non-humans with circles and such (in D&D terms, dominate person and suggestion are bad, geas and planar binding are fine), so he's saying "You know that only mind-controlling other humans breaks the Fourth Law, but even if the Law did apply to faeries, what I did wasn't mind control so it wouldn't matter anyway."

123456789blaaa
2012-11-05, 05:20 PM
Harry actually says both, that the law only applies to humans and that he wasn't binding Toot-Toot. Here's the quote from the book:

He says that the laws only apply to humans, but then his next statement makes it sound like exactly the opposite is true. It's weird. Then during the fight with the demon he reinforces again that they don't only apply to humans:

We know that Jim sometimes makes stuff up and changes stuff on the fly (see Ivy). This may be a case of that. However unlike in other instances there is nothing that really contradicts Harry's statement except in the same book. It's murky.

Aidan305
2012-11-06, 09:41 AM
So, chapter 2 is up now… (http://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/cold-days-14/cold-days-chapter-2)

Any guesses as to whose birthday party it is?
It's possible that it could be Harry's, though that would mean it took approximately eight weeks to start remembering who he was after he initially came out of his coma. So the time frame feels a little wrong on that.

It would, however, account for Cat Sith's comment about how Harry "Cannot possibly be that stupid."

Celebrating birthdays strikes me as a very mortal thing to do. I don't think it would have the same meaning for one of the major fae.

Feytalist
2012-11-06, 09:52 AM
Oh look, it's Cat Sìth.

That's... actually very cool.

My cat is called Cat Sìth.

Eldan
2012-11-06, 10:00 AM
Got a link to that chapter? I can't find it on Butcher's site.

Edit: Wait, now I hvae it. It's not on the page of Cold Days, just on the main page.

Cat Sith is surprisingly helpful, for a Winter. Oh, he's casually threatening, and he refuses to follow the spirit of a command, but he's actually giving Dresden advice, voluntarily.

Socratov
2012-11-06, 10:15 AM
On whose birthday it is: It's his own birthday. the other birthdays he wouldn't know without really forshadowing and the remark form Cat Sith is indicating that harry woudl be stupid. And no one would be stupid enough to ferget one's own birthday (except for harry who never really got round to celebrating it under justin and continued the tradition afterwards). Besides, he's the only mortal elft and the question is if you still celebrate your birthday when you are immortal (aka when age doesn't matter anyway or when you are too old to remember your age anyway).

Dante & Vergil
2012-11-06, 10:18 AM
Wait, wasn't this second chapter in the paperback version of Ghost Story? Because I swear I've read this before.

The Glyphstone
2012-11-06, 10:21 AM
Wait, wasn't this second chapter in the paperback version of Ghost Story? Because I swear I've read this before.

Yes, the first two chapters of Cold Days came out as an early-spoiler in paperback Ghost Story.

Eldan
2012-11-06, 10:48 AM
On whose birthday it is: It's his own birthday. the other birthdays he wouldn't know without really forshadowing and the remark form Cat Sith is indicating that harry woudl be stupid. And no one would be stupid enough to ferget one's own birthday (except for harry who never really got round to celebrating it under justin and continued the tradition afterwards). Besides, he's the only mortal elft and the question is if you still celebrate your birthday when you are immortal (aka when age doesn't matter anyway or when you are too old to remember your age anyway).

And it's a hilarious opportunity for major complications involving faerie gifts.

Aidan305
2012-11-06, 10:51 AM
And it's a hilarious opportunity for major complications involving faerie gifts.

Again. Because the last time that happened it worked out so well.

Prime32
2012-11-06, 03:19 PM
I am most often called SithBut... Sith is just the Scottish version of Sidhe/Sí (i.e. his name is "Fairy Cat", like Leanan Sidhe is "Fairy Lover", Banshee is "Fairy Woman", etc.), and he himself uses Sidhe as a general term about a minute later. :smallconfused:

tonberrian
2012-11-06, 03:39 PM
I like to think that the binding of creatures of Faeries in the like through Names is, technically, a violation of the law against binding, but the spirit of the law was to prevent the binding of humans. It's enough for an overzealous zealot of a Warden to get you in trouble for, but otherwise it's hardly enforced, and if you don't establish any control, that Warden would have even less ground to stand on.

Mauve Shirt
2012-11-06, 04:50 PM
Ok, so when you post about a chapter being up could you please link to it? The chapter is nowhere on Jim's website that I can find.
I've read the first two though, so it's all good.

Thank God Jim said no more surprise children. If it were Mab's child's birthday I would be very sad.

Socratov
2012-11-07, 03:38 AM
And it's a hilarious opportunity for major complications involving faerie gifts.

all part of the learning process i guess :smallamused:

datalaughing
2012-11-07, 05:54 AM
Ok, so when you post about a chapter being up could you please link to it? The chapter is nowhere on Jim's website that I can find.

When you type in www.jim-butcher.com it's the first thing you see on the page. As such, I have to think that your search may have been rather less comprehensive than you claim.

Sinfonian
2012-11-07, 02:46 PM
Just got around to rereading Chapter Two from Jim's website (I have the Ghost Story paperback already, but didn't want to look for it) and am curious about something.

Mab apparently sent Harry's mothers silver pentacle to a jeweler to have the ruby he got in Changes properly set into the thing, rather than just letting it be there with the hot glue. Do you think they were able to undo the damage to the pentacle itself from dealing with the loup-garou? Seems like that sort of thing would take nothing less than a faerie craftsman to take care of. It's also entirely probable I'm thinking too much about this.

123456789blaaa
2012-11-07, 04:37 PM
A little off topic here: how come I never see you guys on the DF forums? Do you go by different screen names?

Sinfonian
2012-11-07, 04:58 PM
Not on there. The only other forum I post at is Spoony Experiment.

datalaughing
2012-11-07, 08:04 PM
I've posted on the DF forum once or twice, but why would we want to go there when we have a perfectly serviceable Dresden Files thread right here? Mostly I hang out around Roosterteeth, but there's a couple of threads like this one and the GG thread that make coming to GitP very worthwhile.

Mauve Shirt
2012-11-07, 08:08 PM
I'm on the forums as Mauve Shirt, but I don't go over there that often. When I do I hang out in the DF Spoilers subforum, where all of the most interesting threads are thousands of pages long and I can't contribute anything. :smalltongue:

Dumbledore lives
2012-11-07, 11:52 PM
I am very excited for this. I've loved all the Dresden Files and the potential for Harry is simply enormous.

datalaughing
2012-11-12, 06:51 AM
Ok, so new question, is there any character that Harry knows that you think might secretly be part of the black council? Maybe all the crap that's gone wrong in Harry's life has made me paranoid for him, but there are several people I'm suspicious of.

I like Harry/Elaine as a couple. There's something about first love, it would be nice to see it win. On the other hand, I don't trust her. She was deep in that Aurora thing, and we know the summer lady was probably being manipulated by the black council. She's always lying to and tricking Harry when they meet up, and the last time she stopped the Skavis but got injured too much to be on hand to take on the black council agents (Vitto and Madrigal).

I've got the same suspicions of Ramirez. He's so powerful and so young and so much on Harry's side, but we know so little about him. He could easily be a traitor. Of course, if he was he could have knifed Harry in the back when they were riding that T-Rex and let Cowl win, but still.

Maybe the most wild of all, I've always been a little bit suspicious of Ebenezar. What if being the Blackstaff and going against the laws of magic really has corrupted him (even though there seem to be things in place to prevent that). Him being part of the black council would put a whole new spin on all the things he's done. Even creating the grey council. It could be a way of bringing together all the black council's most savvy enemies into one place. Then they could take them on or just reveal their existence to the white council, which, as Harry says at the end of Turn Coat, would make everyone think they were the black council and probably get them executed.

That's just a few. There's been times I've even thought that maybe Murphy, but no, that's probably too far. Harry is the only one who really knew from way back how capable Murphy was.

Anyway, paranoid? Maybe, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face.

Eldan
2012-11-12, 06:54 AM
Personally, I don't trust the Gatekeeper. Now, I don't think he'll actually be on the Black Council. He seems to be set up as a mysterious mentor figure for Harry.

My question is this. He seems to be connected to several of the laws of Magic. The Outer Gates - he's the Gatekeeper. There are some indications he has something to do with time travel or prophecy as well. The Outer Gates seem to have been breached, if someone's summoning outsiders. Why is no one the least bit suspicious about the Gatekeeper?

Mauve Shirt
2012-11-12, 08:17 AM
I've heard the theory about Eb. I'm not sure what to think of it. I mean, we know his daughter was black council, and we know he seriously didn't like it.

Elaine I suspect is still on the side of the summer faeries. Since Titania is probably on the black council, Elaine could end up on the black council. She's also Outsiderbane, and if they can't have Harry they'd probably be happy to have Elaine.

Carlos? I doubt it. Too young, too anti-black-magic, too many chances to kill Harry and never did so. He didn't help Cowl when he attacked in White Night either.

Murphy is WAY far-fetched. :smalltongue:

Eldan
2012-11-12, 08:48 AM
If Cowl is on the Black Council. I sort of doubt it.

Socratov
2012-11-12, 10:24 AM
Well, the black council is nothign more then supposed bad guys in an organised setting. The kemmler students do seem to fit that description. Now if they are part of the black council, or are the black council remains to be seen. for now I think it's interesting to see what happens.

On the note of (prominent) councilmembers belonging to the black council: I don't suspect Injun Joe, Ebenezer and the Gatekeeper. The rest is as suspect as anything IMO. I mean, if you can't trust the bureacrats naymore, the world really has gone to hell and even the grandmeister can be corrupted. (I'm lookign at you merlin who still after all this time doesn't trust Harry)

Eldan
2012-11-12, 10:39 AM
I think the Merlin is fine, more or less. Because Butcher does good twists, and the Merlin would be too obvious.

About the Kemmlerites and the Black Council: some of them are in it, if there is one, I agree. But they were fighting each other, and some were a lot, well, nicer than others. So, I think Cowl is okay. Unless I'm misremembering which one cowl was.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-11-12, 01:08 PM
Of the Senior Council I'm most suspicious of Injun Joe. We only have "Ebenezar trusts him" as really vouching for him and a great reason for going off the well-intentioned-extremist end of the pool. Though we have no good reason to clear Martha Liberty or Ancient Mai. LaFortier is busy being dead with Simon RussianName. Cristos and Langtry go under "stupid is everywhere, everyday" though we really can't clear Cristos. The Gatekeeper is clearly the only guy with a brain and the only one on the Council playing the Real Game we're only starting to learn about.

However I think at this point I'd say Peabody strongly speaks against suspecting the Senior Council. You don't have the butler do it for there to still be the master under suspicion.

Also pretty evidently Grevane and Corpsetaker were not Black Council but very possibly had dealings with it. Just as Justin Cowl clearly is, also demonstrating the real name is the Circle.

I still kinda get the feeling Elaine is up to something, but only because she seems to be in some tragic heroine niche. Or just the Catwoman to Harry's Batman.

And unless Lara is playing both sides we've nobody else to be suspecting. I'm reasonably sure she will end up on the "good guys" probably by being the only one to successfully play the Black Council for some crucial info.

datalaughing
2012-11-12, 01:18 PM
I agree about Lara. Like Marcone Lara doesn't work for anyone but herself. Besides which, the black council (the circle) tried to decapitate the white court back in White Night. Cowl had Vitto and the super goblins (and a freaking Outsider) move to take them all out in one stroke. No reason to do that if the Circle was already secretly controlling the white court through Lara. That, of course, will make Lara and Marcone (and maybe even Nicodemus?) perfect allies for Harry if/when he has to move against the black council. They all have an interest in taking them out, and they're all too stubborn/full of themselves to be working for the secret group.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-11-12, 01:35 PM
I'd be... disappointed... if Nicodemus ended up an actual ally. It would positively ruin his most repugnant douchery. I mean maybe do a quick "favor" or something that nominally counts as helping, but not in the end showing up for the side of Harry. Killed off before would be a good resolution perhaps.

Lara and Marcone are totally going to end winner by hitching themselves to the real winning side. I more then half expected Marcone to be a member of the Grey Council.

lord_khaine
2012-11-12, 06:21 PM
I've heard the theory about Eb. I'm not sure what to think of it. I mean, we know his daughter was black council, and we know he seriously didn't like it.

Im am very sure we have seen seen any evidence suggesting anything like this.


Elaine I suspect is still on the side of the summer faeries. Since Titania is probably on the black council, Elaine could end up on the black council. She's also Outsiderbane, and if they can't have Harry they'd probably be happy to have Elaine.

Also, i dont know why we suspect Titania of being on the Black council, i would personaly suspect that her being a Fairy Queen would place her high above concerns like that.
Also, where did i miss the evidence proving that Elaine had powers over outsiders like harry?

That aside, i really dont belive the Merlin is Black either, he might be an Antagonist, but that doesnt male him evil.

BRC
2012-11-12, 07:36 PM
I kind of doubt that the Farie Queens are Black Council, unless they were leading it.

Cowl is certainly Black Council. The Red King probably was. That new Senior Council Member (I forget his name) is implied to either be BC, or be working for them. I doubt any of the other current Senior Council members though, unless Butcher decides to go into convoluted super conspiracy mode (Eg: Yes their help was instrumental in stopping our scheme earlier, but they were REALLY just working for us all along!). Ebz and the Merlin are probably both clean, for a variety of reasons.

Mavra might be Black Council. She quasi-stopped cowl from ascending, but on the other hand Cowl only got access to what he needed because of Harry's involvement.

datalaughing
2012-11-12, 10:30 PM
The Red King probably was.
Mavra might be Black Council. She quasi-stopped cowl from ascending, but on the other hand Cowl only got access to what he needed because of Harry's involvement.

I doubt the Red King was black council. He was too unstable to make sense as a member, and he wasn't really the kind of guy to let anyone boss him around. Also, if he was a member they wouldn't have needed to recruit Bianca. I think the black council worked with the vampires some, but only to use them as a hammer to break the white council.

Also, it seems obvious that Mavra was/is involved with the black council. She used Harry to sabotage their plans with Cowl, yeah, but she didn't need to use Harry. She's powerful enough that she could have gotten the book herself, but she didn't. Because she needed a way to get the Word of Kemmler out of their hands without anyone knowing she was behind it. Harry says that after reading the book, he knows how to use necromancy against black court vampires. Since in the end the black court vamps are just dead bodies, it makes sense. So if the knowledge was out there that would allow any wizard to control or otherwise do bad things to black court vamps, she would need to make sure no one had it, even her allies. So she arranged to get the Word hidden again and not have her allies know that it was her.

123456789blaaa
2012-11-12, 10:46 PM
Im am very sure we have seen seen any evidence suggesting anything like this.



Also, i dont know why we suspect Titania of being on the Black council, i would personaly suspect that her being a Fairy Queen would place her high above concerns like that.
Also, where did i miss the evidence proving that Elaine had powers over outsiders like harry?

That aside, i really dont belive the Merlin is Black either, he might be an Antagonist, but that doesnt male him evil.

A WoJ from the DF forums:


Q: Is Elaine another candidate to wield power over Outsiders (the way Harry supposedly is)?
A: Yes. There’s a reason Justin picked the two of them. (Editor's note: The original asker posted this clarification)


Quote from: laura118b on August 23, 2010, 01:01:14 PM


…I asked him the question:smallsmile:

The full question was if he had stated in the past, during an interview, that Elaine also was a candidate to have the potential to wield power over Outsiders. His longer answer was yes, he had said that before, that Harry and Elaine are just a few months apart age wise so for all intensive purposes the same age. He then told me that was one of the reasons that Justin had picked both of them to adopt, it wasn't just random kids with power. The key word in my question and his answer was potential.

The WoJ compilation is one of the best reasons to go to the DF forums.

BRC
2012-11-12, 10:48 PM
I doubt the Red King was black council. He was too unstable to make sense as a member, and he wasn't really the kind of guy to let anyone boss him around. Also, if he was a member they wouldn't have needed to recruit Bianca. I think the black council worked with the vampires some, but only to use them as a hammer to break the white council.


But the Red Court calling up outsiders (Something that can only be done by mortal magic) was one of the things that convinced Harry about the existence of the Black Council in the first place.

datalaughing
2012-11-12, 10:52 PM
But the Red Court calling up outsiders (Something that can only be done by mortal magic) was one of the things that convinced Harry about the existence of the Black Council in the first place.

Yeah, that's what I meant when I said they worked with the vampires some.

Grytorm
2012-11-12, 10:53 PM
Also I get the feeling that he might actually be good at magical crafting. In Proven Guilty Bob complements Harry's work on Little Chicago. He says something along the lines that the model is better than what any of the dark wizards Bob has worked with in the past could do.

Lamech
2012-11-12, 11:09 PM
I'd be... disappointed... if Nicodemus ended up an actual ally. It would positively ruin his most repugnant douchery. I mean maybe do a quick "favor" or something that nominally counts as helping, but not in the end showing up for the side of Harry. Killed off before would be a good resolution perhaps.

Lara and Marcone are totally going to end winner by hitching themselves to the real winning side. I more then half expected Marcone to be a member of the Grey Council.
He's totally ending up on "team good". Also remember he was pissed when he found out one of his was helping the black council. He won't be any less of an jerk-face though. He'll be just as evil as before. :smallbiggrin:

Lamech
2012-11-13, 12:49 AM
New one is UP! (http://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/cold-days-14/cold-days-chapter-3)

Feytalist
2012-11-13, 01:52 AM
That's quite cool. Pun not intended.

One little string caught my eye: "...as the Industrial Age gathered steam". Subtle, heh. And rather amusing.