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View Full Version : Sub-Zero v.s Batman



DarthArminius
2012-08-16, 01:30 PM
Any reference to Mortal Kombat vs DC will lead to, banning, a strongly worded LETTER. :|

Sub-Zero has been led to believe by Shang Tsung, disguised as Raiden while the Thunder god was away from his temple that a new follower of Shinnok has been found beneath Gotham City. This follower of Shinnok has been said to be highly resourceful, knowledgable of martial arts and technologically supported.

Batman has been given an hour's notice by Zatanna (actually Quan Chi in disguise) and told that an evil ninja known for possessing mystical powers over ice, and with unmatched martial prowess is now attacking the Bat Cave in order to get revenge on him for some unknown run-in with the many ninja Batman has fought in the past.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-16, 01:39 PM
...............................................

I thought there was an unspoken rule that everything loses against Batman if he has at least a minute to prepare one of his special Bat items against it.

Further more, how exactly would Sub-Zero do any better against Batman than Mr. Freeze would?

I might switch sides with some convincing, but I see no reason to bet on the long shot yet. Batman seems like a sure win.

DarthArminius
2012-08-16, 01:41 PM
...............................................

I thought there was an unspoken rule that everything loses against Batman if he has at least a minute to prepare one of his special Bat items against it.

Further more, how exactly would Sub-Zero do any better against Batman than Mr. Freeze would?

I might switch sides with some convincing, but I see no reason to bet on the long shot yet. Batman seems like a sure win.

Sub-Zero is a superior hand-hand combatant. That's #1 reason. Another reason is that Sub-Zero is nothing like Mr. Freeze. Batman might have one hour of preparation, but to win against opponents like the Justice League and others, he needs longer than an hour. (Or so I thought).

INoKnowNames
2012-08-16, 01:50 PM
Sub-Zero is a superior hand-hand combatant. That's #1 reason. Another reason is that Sub-Zero is nothing like Mr. Freeze. Batman might have one hour of preparation, but to win against opponents like the Justice League and others, he needs longer than an hour. (Or so I thought).

I'm sure people will come in and beltch several examples, including the whole "Bane" thing, but it seems like getting within Batman's HRR* is not the best idea, and, as such, Sub-Zero is at a disadvantage compared to Mr. Freeze when it comes to types of combatants.

As for simularities, they're both ice guys. True, Victor Freeze is far more vunerable to a Bat Heat Lamp than Sub Zero, but at the same time, Sub-Zero's still defeatable by a Bat Bitch Slap, and the fact of the matter is that he could use technology in his suit to defend against Freeze to help fight Sub-Zero.

And please remember, you -are- dealing with the God Damn Batman.

*horrible rape radius, ie hand to hand with the GDB*.

*God Damn Batman.

DarthArminius
2012-08-16, 01:52 PM
I'm sure people will come in and beltch several examples, including the whole "Bane" thing, but it seems like getting within Batman's HRR* is not the best idea, and, as such, Sub-Zero is at a disadvantage compared to Mr. Freeze when it comes to types of combatants.

As for simularities, they're both ice guys. True, Victor Freeze is far more vunerable to a Bat Heat Lamp than Sub Zero, but at the same time, Sub-Zero's still defeatable by a Bat Bitch Slap, and the fact of the matter is that he could use technology in his suit to defend against Freeze to help fight Sub-Zero.

And please remember, you -are- dealing with the God Damn Batman.

*horrible rape radius, ie hand to hand with the GDB*.

*God Damn Batman.

That's true. But Sub-Zero has fought and killed four God-Damn gods. :)
The Croc has got nothing on any of them.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-16, 02:01 PM
That's true. But Sub-Zero has fought and killed four *mortalkombat* gods. :)
The Croc has got nothing on any of them.

Fixed for you. Don't take the title of the Goddamned Batman lightly. (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/im-the-goddamn-batman)

And Batman's taken on far more than just the Croc. I'm sure examples of him fighting against God level enemies (including actual reality warpers, rather than just Mortal-Kombat vunerable beings shooting various flavors of lightning) can be drug up if we want to.

DarthArminius
2012-08-16, 02:02 PM
Fixed for you. Don't take the title of the Goddamned Batman lightly. (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/im-the-goddamn-batman)

And Batman's taken on far more than just the Croc. I'm sure examples of him fighting against God level enemies (including actual reality warpers, rather than just Mortal-Kombat vunerable beings shooting various flavors of lightning) can be drug up if we want to.

Yeah. How much prep did he have? An hour? Less ?

Mando Knight
2012-08-16, 02:17 PM
Sub-Zero is a superior hand-hand combatant. That's #1 reason. Another reason is that Sub-Zero is nothing like Mr. Freeze. Batman might have one hour of preparation, but to win against opponents like the Justice League and others, he needs longer than an hour. (Or so I thought).

Actually, against the Justice League in particular, the lore has it so that he's already done the preparation in advance, meaning he needs all of like ten minutes, or five seconds in case of rogue Superman (Kryptonite ring, lead-lined pocket in utility belt).

With an ice-themed villain in his own rogues gallery, the Bat has de-icing equipment already (thermal Batsuit, ice-melting Bat-Grenade/pellets, etc.).

Also, the fight's happening in Gotham. Which is Batman's home... even if he doesn't have them prepared, his support vehicles are only moments away, and being pre-warned to the opponent means he can stalk him.

DarthArminius
2012-08-16, 02:25 PM
Actually, against the Justice League in particular, the lore has it so that he's already done the preparation in advance, meaning he needs all of like ten minutes, or five seconds in case of rogue Superman (Kryptonite ring, lead-lined pocket in utility belt).

With an ice-themed villain in his own rogues gallery, the Bat has de-icing equipment already (thermal Batsuit, ice-melting Bat-Grenade/pellets, etc.).

Also, the fight's happening in Gotham. Which is Batman's home... even if he doesn't have them prepared, his support vehicles are only moments away, and being pre-warned to the opponent means he can stalk him.

That's something I haven't considered

Starbuck_II
2012-08-16, 02:39 PM
Sub-Zero is a superior hand-hand combatant. That's #1 reason. Another reason is that Sub-Zero is nothing like Mr. Freeze. Batman might have one hour of preparation, but to win against opponents like the Justice League and others, he needs longer than an hour. (Or so I thought).

Wasn't he defeated by a bucket of water in the movie :smalltongue:
It doesn't even have to be a evil bucket.

Eldariel
2012-08-16, 02:44 PM
Wasn't he defeated by a bucket of water in the movie :smalltongue:
It doesn't even have to be a evil bucket.

The what now? :smallconfused:

Mando Knight
2012-08-16, 03:15 PM
It does not exist. There was never a Mortal Kombat film featuring François Petit as Sub-Zero, and even if there had been, the franchise's fans would never forgive the studio if it gathered something like a 36% rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

Traab
2012-08-16, 04:28 PM
Actually, against the Justice League in particular, the lore has it so that he's already done the preparation in advance, meaning he needs all of like ten minutes, or five seconds in case of rogue Superman (Kryptonite ring, lead-lined pocket in utility belt).

With an ice-themed villain in his own rogues gallery, the Bat has de-icing equipment already (thermal Batsuit, ice-melting Bat-Grenade/pellets, etc.).

Also, the fight's happening in Gotham. Which is Batman's home... even if he doesn't have them prepared, his support vehicles are only moments away, and being pre-warned to the opponent means he can stalk him.

Yeah, but im not sure how well the mister freeze anti ice stuff would work against sub zero. I mean, isnt his ice some sort of magically manifested ice? Sort of like how superman can be struck by lightning and not even have to tuck his hair back down, but hit him with a magic bolt of lightning and he screams like a toddler that just got his lolly stolen. Different rules apply even though they look to be the same. I mean, its possible it would work the same, but its hard to say. Also, sub zero is an incredibly skilled assassin. I dont think batman can expect to just waltz on up and track him down without getting caught. He may be the goddamn batman, but subzero is a goddamn mystical ninja.

DarthArminius
2012-08-16, 04:30 PM
. He may be the goddamn batman, but subzero is a goddamn mystical ninja.

Lin-Kuei! ::Freezes Traab::

Raimun
2012-08-16, 05:08 PM
Batman wins.

Why?



Because I'm Batman!

JCarter426
2012-08-16, 05:14 PM
Forget about Freeze. Killer Frost. Comparable powers, defeated by Batman more than once. She might not be a ninja, but she's called "Killer" for a reason. Plus, Batman has defeated ninja anyway.

Coidzor
2012-08-16, 05:14 PM
He's got an hour to prepare with all of his technology and tools near to hand. Sub-Zeros' martial skills are something Batman has dealt with before, even if it's not necessarily that fighting style.

Sub-Zero's mystical ice powers, meh. He's dealt with freeze rays and magic powers.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-16, 09:17 PM
Yeah, but im not sure how well the mister freeze anti ice stuff would work against sub zero. I mean, isnt his ice some sort of magically manifested ice? Sort of like how superman can be struck by lightning and not even have to tuck his hair back down, but hit him with a magic bolt of lightning and he screams like a toddler that just got his lolly stolen. Different rules apply even though they look to be the same. I mean, its possible it would work the same, but its hard to say. Also, sub zero is an incredibly skilled assassin. I dont think batman can expect to just waltz on up and track him down without getting caught. He may be the goddamn batman, but subzero is a goddamn mystical ninja.

It doesn't really matter if they function the same, though, because their end effects are the same - ice/cold - and that's what Batman's defenses are already designed to protect against. Ice is ice, whether it was magically manifested or technologically condensed; Superman is a special case because he specifically has a weakness to magic, Batman's anti-ice precautions aren't specifically 'anti-tech-made-ice'. If it's decided that Subzero's ice is colder than Mr. Freeze's ice, said defenses might be less effective, but they won't just fail to function entirely in the face of magic.

KnightDisciple
2012-08-16, 09:49 PM
It doesn't really matter if they function the same, though, because their end effects are the same - ice/cold - and that's what Batman's defenses are already designed to protect against. Ice is ice, whether it was magically manifested or technologically condensed; Superman is a special case because he specifically has a weakness to magic, Batman's anti-ice precautions aren't specifically 'anti-tech-made-ice'. If it's decided that Subzero's ice is colder than Mr. Freeze's ice, said defenses might be less effective, but they won't just fail to function entirely in the face of magic.

More than that, consider that while it's theoretically possible Sub-Zero's ice temp might be colder than Freeze's (which is...not guaranteed), he's never really shown to put out ice with the same volume. Freeze casually ices over large areas within a few seconds of continuous fire. SZ seems to fire a single small bolt, and needs a "wind-up" for that.

It will take Batman more than a few seconds, but I don't really see this not being a win, especially with the warning he gets.

Mando Knight
2012-08-17, 12:06 AM
Also, sub zero is an incredibly skilled assassin. I dont think batman can expect to just waltz on up and track him down without getting caught. He may be the goddamn batman, but subzero is a goddamn mystical ninja.

But Sub-Zero would be trying to assassinate the goddamn Batman in his own home city. In Gotham, you don't find Batman, he finds you.

Coidzor
2012-08-17, 01:07 AM
But Sub-Zero would be trying to assassinate the goddamn Batman in his own home city. In Gotham, you don't find Batman, he finds you.

Worse, he's assaulting the goddamn Batman in his lair and Batman knows about it in advance. Call me crazy, but i seem to recall Batman had some level of security on the Batcave and it's where he keeps a lot of his nifty toys that he uses to rig up traps, so that's... a lot of unnecessary advantage.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-17, 01:40 AM
Worse, he's assaulting the goddamn Batman in his lair and Batman knows about it in advance. Call me crazy, but i seem to recall Batman had some level of security on the Batcave and it's where he keeps a lot of his nifty toys that he uses to rig up traps, so that's... a lot of unnecessary advantage.

.... My arguements and thoughts have been just over Batman going to Outworld to deal with a Ninja threat.

Sub Zero's going to -Gotham-, to -THE BATCAVE-, AND HE'S GOING TO FIGHT BATMAN INSIDE IT!?!

It's already a massive advantage without a freaking Home Field advantage, but with it, it's a 0-100% win in the favor of the Goddamned Batman.

I see no possible way to continue the conversation on our end without a significant rethought of the fight's options or information added that I certainly can't think of. I hardly see Batman needing to prepare much to face an Ice based Enemy vunerable to a Monk beating his ass. And said ass is being -delivered- to the worst possible place. Sub-Zero would have a better chance fighting in a Volcano.

Hopeless
2012-08-17, 02:52 AM
.... My arguements and thoughts have been just over Batman going to Outworld to deal with a Ninja threat.
Sub Zero's going to -Gotham-, to -THE BATCAVE-, AND HE'S GOING TO FIGHT BATMAN INSIDE IT!?!
It's already a massive advantage without a freaking Home Field advantage, but with it, it's a 0-100% win in the favor of the Goddamned Batman.
I see no possible way to continue the conversation on our end without a significant rethought of the fight's options or information added that I certainly can't think of. I hardly see Batman needing to prepare much to face an Ice based Enemy vunerable to a Monk beating his ass. And said ass is being -delivered- to the worst possible place. Sub-Zero would have a better chance fighting in a Volcano.

If it helps Count Dracula, the vampire tried to pull this off and needless to say he'd (posthumously) agree with your findings!:smallbiggrin:

Traab
2012-08-17, 07:06 AM
Hmph, Subzero has had an hour to transform batmans lair into an iceberg. They are basically fighting in an underground antartica. Im sure batman has tons of toys that would help.... if they werent buried under 10 feet of ice already. Batman may have an hour to prepare, but he only has the gear on him, or at other satellite locations of gotham to work with.

Remember, thats the setup, Subzero starts off with an hour in the batcave, while batman gets an hour to prepare outside of it. All his primary goodies are in the cave. Yes he has his backup secret lairs, but thats all secondary gear. So while normally I would agree with the whole, "WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING HIM IN THE BATCAVE?!" school of thought, in this case that advantage is greatly negated by the fact that it has been transformed into a winter wonderland, all traps and security devices have been engulfed by too much ice to melt easily, no secret passages that can be opened, and the terrain is now one that I would think gives sub zero the advantage.

KillianHawkeye
2012-08-17, 07:16 AM
Hmph, Subzero has had an hour to transform batmans lair into an iceberg. They are basically fighting in an underground antartica. Im sure batman has tons of toys that would help.... if they werent buried under 10 feet of ice already. Batman may have an hour to prepare, but he only has the gear on him, or at other satellite locations of gotham to work with.

Remember, thats the setup, Subzero starts off with an hour in the batcave, while batman gets an hour to prepare outside of it. All his primary goodies are in the cave. Yes he has his backup secret lairs, but thats all secondary gear. So while normally I would agree with the whole, "WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING HIM IN THE BATCAVE?!" school of thought, in this case that advantage is greatly negated by the fact that it has been transformed into a winter wonderland, all traps and security devices have been engulfed by too much ice to melt easily, no secret passages that can be opened, and the terrain is now one that I would think gives sub zero the advantage.

I don't think it's clear from the OP to assume that Sub-Zero has an hour of free reign in the freakin' Bat Cave to turn the place into frozen Christmas-land. I strongly disagree with your reading.

Aasimar
2012-08-17, 07:25 AM
Not only do I proclaim this an obvious win for Batman with a dismissive shrug. I'll go so far as to suggest that the matchup would only even be proposed as something other than a slam-dunk by a die-hard Sub-Zero fan.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-17, 09:46 AM
Hmph, Subzero has had an hour to transform batmans lair into an iceberg. They are basically fighting in an underground antartica. Im sure batman has tons of toys that would help.... if they werent buried under 10 feet of ice already. Batman may have an hour to prepare, but he only has the gear on him, or at other satellite locations of gotham to work with.

Remember, thats the setup, Subzero starts off with an hour in the batcave, while batman gets an hour to prepare outside of it. All his primary goodies are in the cave. Yes he has his backup secret lairs, but thats all secondary gear. So while normally I would agree with the whole, "WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING HIM IN THE BATCAVE?!" school of thought, in this case that advantage is greatly negated by the fact that it has been transformed into a winter wonderland, all traps and security devices have been engulfed by too much ice to melt easily, no secret passages that can be opened, and the terrain is now one that I would think gives sub zero the advantage.

How did you possibly even begin to get this idea from the OP?

Starbuck_II
2012-08-17, 11:22 AM
Worse, he's assaulting the goddamn Batman in his lair and Batman knows about it in advance. Call me crazy, but i seem to recall Batman had some level of security on the Batcave and it's where he keeps a lot of his nifty toys that he uses to rig up traps, so that's... a lot of unnecessary advantage.

He's been beaten in his home when he was forced to stay Bruce Wayne due to keep identity.
So if we assume a party at his mansion, Sub-Zero (if he knows his identity) can win.

Mando Knight
2012-08-17, 11:42 AM
Remember, thats the setup, Subzero starts off with an hour in the batcave, while batman gets an hour to prepare outside of it. All his primary goodies are in the cave. Yes he has his backup secret lairs, but thats all secondary gear. So while normally I would agree with the whole, "WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING HIM IN THE BATCAVE?!" school of thought, in this case that advantage is greatly negated by the fact that it has been transformed into a winter wonderland, all traps and security devices have been engulfed by too much ice to melt easily, no secret passages that can be opened, and the terrain is now one that I would think gives sub zero the advantage.
Sub-Zero has not been given an hour in the Bat-Cave. Batman's been given an hour's advance warning that Sub-Zero will attack the Bat-Cave.

How he finds it is beyond me, since it's been very rare that Batman's Gotham-native nemeses have been able to find it. Even then, the Bat-Cave won't get to be frozen over in an hour of tranquility... you invade the Cave, the Bat is immediately notified. And his security systems likely automatically activate.

SDF
2012-08-17, 11:50 AM
Batman has been given an hour's notice

I don't understand how there can be any debate over the outcome after this.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-17, 11:51 AM
Is the foe beatable by conventional means? (Ie. martial arts, stabbing, shooting, etc.)

>Yes.

Batman wins, doesn't need prep time.



Are the foe's powers something Batman has faced before?

>Yes.

Batman wins, doesn't need prep time.



Batman soundly beats Sub-Zero, banishes him back to Outworld with a boom tube or whatever, then takes out the person who was disguised as Zatanna because he made several tells in their conversation that already tipped off Batman. Then the second half of the comic is taken up by ads because Batman wrapped up the crossover storyline too quickly.

DarthArminius
2012-08-17, 11:53 AM
Is the foe beatable by conventional means? (Ie. martial arts, stabbing, shooting, etc.)

>Yes.

Batman wins, doesn't need prep time.



Are the foe's powers something Batman has faced before?

>Yes.

Batman wins, doesn't need prep time.



Batman soundly beats Sub-Zero, banishes him back to Outworld with a boom tube or whatever, then takes out the person who was disguised as Zatanna because he made several tells in their conversation that already tipped off Batman. Then the second half of the comic is taken up by ads because Batman wrapped up the crossover storyline too quickly.

The one hope Sub-Zero has, is his ice powers. Batman may have faced them before, but all he really knows is that Sub-Zero is "A ninja". He won't be preparing for his ice powers.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-17, 12:28 PM
The one hope Sub-Zero has, is his ice powers. Batman may have faced them before, but all he really knows is that Sub-Zero is "A ninja". He won't be preparing for his ice powers.

Yes he will. He has to keep prepared in case Mr. Freeze randomly tries to knock over a jewelry store or tries to freeze Gotham. Batman is already completely prepared for ninjas and ice-powers because that's his job.

Show me someone who flings piles of radioactive oatmeal as a superpower and turns people into fire hydrants and Batman might need some prep time.

DarthArminius
2012-08-17, 12:37 PM
Yes he will. He has to keep prepared in case Mr. Freeze randomly tries to knock over a jewelry store or tries to freeze Gotham. Batman is already completely prepared for ninjas and ice-powers because that's his job.

Show me someone who flings piles of radioactive oatmeal as a superpower and turns people into fire hydrants and Batman might need some prep time.

But does he expect Mr Freeze to attack his lair? He might need to walk a few feet to get his equipment.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-17, 12:40 PM
But does he expect Mr Freeze to attack his lair? He might need to walk a few feet to get his equipment.

Utility belt.

"So, Mr. Batman. You've faced ninjas in the past and you've faced people who shoot ice in the past, but have you faced both... at the same time?"

"Pretty sure, yeah..."

[/batman]

Coidzor
2012-08-17, 03:55 PM
He's been beaten in his home when he was forced to stay Bruce Wayne due to keep identity.
So if we assume a party at his mansion, Sub-Zero (if he knows his identity) can win.

So if we hand it to him on a silver platter and declare him the winner we can give him a fighting chance? Not good odds, those.

MLai
2012-08-18, 12:54 AM
Why is Sub-Zero being singled out for fighting Batman? Is he like, Mortal Kombat's Ryu or something? I'm not up on MK lore higher than MK2.

I think the matchup would be more fair if it was "Shang Tsung's entire Outworld army invading Gotham, vs Batman."

KillianHawkeye
2012-08-18, 07:31 AM
Why is Sub-Zero being singled out for fighting Batman? Is he like, Mortal Kombat's Ryu or something? I'm not up on MK lore higher than MK2.

I think the matchup would be more fair if it was "Shang Tsung's entire Outworld army invading Gotham, vs Batman."

Well, I may not be remembering this right, but I think Sub-Zero became a protagonist sometime during or after MK3 when he was replaced by his non-evil twin with identical powers.

So the real answer is that Batman and Sub-Zero have an epic brawl, then realize that they've both been tricked and team up to beat whoever is the real villain of the comic book. Personally, I'd like to see them go tag-team against Bane and Goro. Or just Goro on VENOM.

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure that Liu Kang was MK's Ryu.

Traab
2012-08-18, 09:37 AM
Batman has been given an hour's notice by Zatanna (actually Quan Chi in disguise) and told that an evil ninja known for possessing mystical powers over ice, and with unmatched martial prowess is now attacking the Bat Cave

Key words, is now attacking the bat cave. Not WILL attack in one hour, is already there in the cave. Batman has been given an hour to prepare before he goes and fights sub zero. Thats my reading of the challenge at least.

Devonix
2012-08-18, 06:00 PM
Lots of people are capable of beating Batman.

Subzero fighting Batman in his own home after giving batman time to prepare, his own home for attack... That's not a scenario Bats can lose in.

Traab
2012-08-18, 06:37 PM
Lots of people are capable of beating Batman.

Subzero fighting Batman in his own home after giving batman time to prepare, his own home for attack... That's not a scenario Bats can lose in.

Sub zero has that hour to prepare as well, and he is also already in batmans lair, thus denying his main source of resources for the fight, and honestly, you could make the home turf argument for anywhere in gotham. Batman, despite the generally accepted mythos, is not going to auto win just because he has time to prepare. It only works out that way in the comics because he is the hero. It would be like saying, "Well, since according to prophecy only harry potter can kill voldemort, clearly that means he will slaughter the hulk in a matchup because the hulk cant kill voldemort." You have to match up their actual abilities, not the plot armor granted ones where the good guy virtually always wins.

Tiki Snakes
2012-08-18, 06:48 PM
Sub zero has that hour to prepare as well, and he is also already in batmans lair, thus denying his main source of resources for the fight, and honestly, you could make the home turf argument for anywhere in gotham.

Yes. You could. That's pretty much the point.
Simply put, Batman has dealt with people like subzero often. Subzero has not really had to deal with people like Batman.

Traab
2012-08-18, 07:23 PM
Yes. You could. That's pretty much the point.
Simply put, Batman has dealt with people like subzero often. Subzero has not really had to deal with people like Batman.

He has dealt with masters of the martial arts, warlocks, sorcerers, demons, alien creatures, gods, and technological terrors. I think he can stand up to a man with a flying mouse fetish.

Eldariel
2012-08-18, 07:48 PM
He has dealt with masters of the martial arts, warlocks, sorcerers, demons, alien creatures, gods, and technological terrors. I think he can stand up to a man with a flying mouse fetish.

If that's all Batman were, he'd have been dead the second he decided to become a crime fighter tho.

Traab
2012-08-18, 08:52 PM
If that's all Batman were, he'd have been dead the second he decided to become a crime fighter tho.

He has a keen mind, excellent martial arts skills, and a budget larger than several states. All that said though? Sub zero has faced worse. All batman really has going for him is this constantly spammed, "he beats everyone if he has time to prepare" line. Thats not an actual ability, its plot armor to explain why this normal human is able to stand toe to toe with creatures that can reshape reality to their whims.

MLai
2012-08-18, 09:10 PM
It's NOT plot armor because it's a part of his character. Plot armor is when a character is somehow protected by something he has no business having, and the fact that he has it is handwaved.

So being able to defeat "individuals with superhuman abilities" is Batman's demonstrated capability. He is capable of this, and it's a reproducible phenomenon (not a one-off such as "Harry prophesized to defeat Voldemort and only Voldemort").

Gnomish Wanderer
2012-08-18, 09:23 PM
Batman is shown having the ability to create detailed plans to beat even the most prepared foes, including himself. I wouldn't call that plot armour so much as a consistent character. Even without his primary liar, he wins because of the planning stage. Take away the planning stage and he still probably wins just because of the fore-mentioned 'I already fight ninjas and freeze-based foes all the time' thing.

Devonix
2012-08-19, 06:28 AM
Sub zero has that hour to prepare as well, and he is also already in batmans lair, thus denying his main source of resources for the fight, and honestly, you could make the home turf argument for anywhere in gotham. Batman, despite the generally accepted mythos, is not going to auto win just because he has time to prepare. It only works out that way in the comics because he is the hero. It would be like saying, "Well, since according to prophecy only harry potter can kill voldemort, clearly that means he will slaughter the hulk in a matchup because the hulk cant kill voldemort." You have to match up their actual abilities, not the plot armor granted ones where the good guy virtually always wins.



No fighting Batman in the Batcave is very different than fighting Batman anywhere else.

Subzero may have an hour in there, but he knows nothing about the place Does he have any computer expertize to hack the security systems?

You know that giant T Rex in the cave that's not a statue it's a working security robot and the place is filled with other things.

Batman's got cybernetic Armor designed by Superman to function in sub arctic temperatures and capable of taking on superhuman opponents as well as robot suits he's built himself to take on others. The Batcave itself is a weapon A weapon Batman doesn't even need a second to activate. He's been attacked there plenty of times, and Subzero fighting him there is suicide.



I am a fan of Batman but not a BATFAN I know his limits I've argued against the character countless times in Vs matches on this very message board when people pit him against people he has no chance of beating.

Batman vs Subzero in a fight would be tough for both opponents.
Batman vs Subzero in a fight in the Batcave is an Auto win for Batman.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-19, 10:01 AM
Key words, is now attacking the bat cave. Not WILL attack in one hour, is already there in the cave. Batman has been given an hour to prepare before he goes and fights sub zero. Thats my reading of the challenge at least.


Leaving aside the obvious paradox of having an hour's warning and no warning (do you really think the Batcave's security systems would not be warning Batman if they were trippped), it doesn't say he's already beaten the Batcave, he is now attacking it. Unless you're suggesting Subzero attacks while Batman is away on patrol/a mission, rather than Bat-Brooding in his Batcave, the other reading of the challenge is that yes, Subzero is attacking, but it'll take an hour for him to overcome its external defenses/security system, during which Batman can prepare for him.

Traab
2012-08-19, 10:22 AM
It's NOT plot armor because it's a part of his character. Plot armor is when a character is somehow protected by something he has no business having, and the fact that he has it is handwaved.

So being able to defeat "individuals with superhuman abilities" is Batman's demonstrated capability. He is capable of this, and it's a reproducible phenomenon (not a one-off such as "Harry prophesized to defeat Voldemort and only Voldemort").

It really is plot armor, because he doesnt have any powers, he basically has the author granted ability to create macguffins at will. It was even lampshaded (Intentionally or not im unsure) in the adam west batman series. "Bat-shark repellent anyone?" He is "always prepared" because if he wasnt, he would have died decades ago. Much like how harry potter didnt die in book 1, or 2, or, well, any of them, despite his total lack of ability and experience compared to voldy, always due to deus ex machina, batman isnt allowed to lose because he always has something on his utility belt or some spare bat suit, or whatever, that instantly negates the advantage the bad guy has.

"Oh, suddenly giant robot guards are attacking? Thank god I have electrified brass knuckles!" "Oh, an evil spellcaster just hit me in the back with a bolt of magic? Thank god I coat all my suits in nth metal which makes me immune to magic!" "Oh, an evil god bent on galactic conquest just teleported in an army? Thank god im so great I can take control of this alien technology that has no equivalent in my world and use it against him!"

Its a lot less evident when he is fighting his own rogues gallery, but it starts becoming even more glaring in justice league type scenarios where he is fighting about 5 levels above his weight class and not getting smeared instantly. Dude put darkseid in a headlock and somehow DIDNT get obliterated for his temerity? Thank god he is so amazing that he can dodge omega beams that superman gets tagged by constantly. I mean, its not like superman is fast or anything, totally understandable that he gets knocked rump over teakettle while batman just backflips his way to safety and shoves convenient parademons into the path.

I may look like I hate batman, but I honestly dont, I just dislike him in these types of arguments because it always boils down to, "Oh, he has a minute to think? Batman wins" It doesnt matter who or what his opponent is, batman just gets the auto win if he has even a moment to think and prepare. Im sure if you put batman up against gohan and gave him an hour to prepare, there would be people willing to argue that he would win purely because, "Im the god damn batman!"

You mention that batman has faced enemies similar to sub zero before, and you are right. Maybe not in that exact configuration of abilities, but he has faced martial artists and ice based enemies before. But the thing is, sub zero basically by definition of the fact that he is in mortal combat, means he is right there at the very top level of martial arts skills. He has faced off against opponents that utterly dwarf batman in strength speed, or even ability. He has faced literal gods and emperors of entire realms. Including enemies that know how to counter or avoid his ice attacks. He wont just stand there blinking stupidly because batman suddenly broke out his bat-flamethrower, he will work around it just like he does any other time it happens. Being able to come up with a device that will stop subzero from turning him into an icicle right away doesnt mean he will get the win. It just puts the fight on a more even footing.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-19, 12:11 PM
Just because you don't like the narrative behind the badass normal doesn't invalidate his entire character as macguffins and plot armor. Batman is the genre savvy character who actually does the research. "Oh? Superman looks like he's going evil again? Better bust out the kryptonite." Batman is in a tier of characters who win because they fight intelligently and don't just rush in with super speed and super strength and get surprised when their opponents have ANOTHER kryptonite-laced trap to nearly kill them.

Darkseid could kill Batman in a straight-up fight, but he's attacked Earth so many times that Batman's developed strategies against him. He doesn't dodge the Omega Beams because he's fast, but because he's analyzed the pattern of the Omega Beams from past encounters with other superheroes and knows the only escape method capable of dodging the likely patterns of the Omega Beams. The principle of "bullet-dodging" isn't being so fast that one dodges the bullet, it's like hitting a baseball, where you try to figure out where the baseball/bullet/Omega Beam/metaphor of your choosing is going to strike before it's even been fired. That or Batman actually does create a gadget capable of redirecting the Omega Beams, but that's less "half hour of planning" and more "Darkseid attacked us six months ago and will probably do so again in the future. Maybe I should start researching technologies with the vast libraries and resources of my allies in case Superman can't stop him. That or at least reverse-engineer some of this Boom Tube technology so I can send him and his army back the way they came." If Darkseid shows up out of nowhere and attacks, then there's little Batman can do. Hell, even the most broken version of Batman, the Brave and the Bold version, couldn't beat Darkseid after he convinced Darkseid to hold back and not use his powers.

If you want someone who can beat Batman, all memes aside, it's actually not that complicated. They need to not have an easily discernible weakness like kryptonite or the color yellow or some element. They need to not be able to be beaten by someone of peak human level strength and speed. They need to be intelligent enough to not fall into obvious traps and ploys. Most importantly, in order to clutch the victory, they need to bring something to the table Batman doesn't reasonably face regularly.

You'll notice Sub-Zero does not fall into ANY of these categories. (Ice-element, clearly faced before and clearly has weaknesses of his own, has mad ninja martial art skills but still able to be beaten by Liu Kang and Johnny Cage. Was beaten by a bucket of water.) Sub-Zero does not get a significant advantage because he fought in "mortal combat" against beings with superpowers. For Batman, that's a weekday.

There are opponents who, once the goddamn batman memes settle, actually post a significant threat to Batman. A mortal kombat character is not one of them.

Devonix
2012-08-19, 12:56 PM
Biggest problem for me is the Batcave. Lets forget about Subzero vs Batman


Subzero is not going to be able to beat the Batcave.

Also Cartoons aside Batman has never and will never dodge Omegabeams.

Also people seem to be forgetting yeah Batman has lots of tech but it isn't because of fanwanking giving him that. He as other superheroes with more smarts and acess to higher level tech that GIVE HIM THESE THINGS.

Its not out of reasoning that Batman has newgod tech when he has newgod friends. or Kryptonian Battlesuits when he's got someone who builds them as his best bud.

Devonix
2012-08-19, 01:07 PM
Also people seem to remember that scene whith Batman fighting Darkseid when he had taken control of the death spores and threatened to blow up the planet seem to overlook a few things.


Batman was using a combo of Apocalyptian armor and a Mr. Miracle's Motherboxx to keep him from dieing in that fight and was still seriously injured. Also He didn't crack the arming code. the Motherboxx did because she's highhlevel Newgodtech owned by the son of the ruler of New Genesis.

KillianHawkeye
2012-08-19, 11:34 PM
Subzero is not going to be able to beat the Batcave.

I dunno, if the Riddler can beat the Bat Cave with only a case of grenades, Sub-Zero might actually have a chance. It really depends on which version of the Bat Cave he's attacking.

Psyren
2012-08-20, 01:51 AM
Maybe Sub-Zero the Elder, aka nether-wraith Noob Saibot, could give Bats some pause. Maybe. But his regular old ice ninja assassin-guy younger brother? Whose powers are so blasé that the whole clan learns them?

I'm definitely not seeing it.

Thinker
2012-08-20, 08:50 AM
I think that the argument as this point has been a bit under-informed. No one has really argued against any of Sub-Zero's abilities, except to say "ice ninja? lol!". Fortunately, there is an entire wiki devoted to Mortal Kombat that can help us see what the Lin Kuei assassin can do (link (http://mortalkombat.wikia.com/wiki/Sub-Zero)). It should also be noted that neither Sub-Zero is human, but is a race called "Cryomancers" from Outworld, which is used to explain their control over ice.



Having descended from a race of Outworld inhabitants known as Cryomancers, Sub-Zero has innate ability to control ice in many forms. Throughout the span of the series, Sub-Zero's powers have continued to evolve. Aside from flash-freezing opponents, Sub-Zero also has the ability to instantly conjure up an ice statue of himself to act as both a scapegoat and a 'landmine' of sorts as any who touch it instantly flash freeze. Due to the Dragon Medallion's addition to his arsenal, Sub-Zero's powers have increased significantly, now able to form weapons out of ice. Exactly how powerful he is storyline-wise is unknown. His former ally Frost only knows how to make ice daggers, while Sub-Zero, due to the Dragon Medallion, can form a giant sword named the Kori Blade. As a member of the Lin Kuei, Sub-Zero has learned to be skilled in many forms of hand-to-hand combat. The Dragon Medallion and his ancestral armor increased and amplified his martial arts and ice-related abilities, as shown in his Deception Arcade ending. Throughout the Mortal Kombat series, Sub-Zero's abilities have grown more powerful; he can even transform his body into a liquefied state, solid state or transform his body into solid ice at will. Raiden has commented that Sub-Zero is more powerful than his brother.


Click the link for all of his abilities used in the games, though some are disqualified due to only being seen in MKvsDCU.

I should also note at this point that all Mortal Kombat characters can take gun shots and grenade blasts without being heavily phased. It is unstated how being frozen would affect a normal human like Batman, but for comparison's sake, we can look at the Shaolin Monks game. There, Liu Kang and Kung Lao fight normal humans and can defeat them with single attacks, while Sub-Zero's freezing abilities deal slightly less damage than these single attacks.

To me, this implies that for Batman to win, he cannot get close to the ninja due to his Ice Shaker ability. It is unfortunate for Sub-Zero that he cannot use his MKvsDCU abilities, as they are abilities implied in the other games by dialog and background, but are never used until that one, but would come in handy in a fight like this (such as Freezing Teleport or Icy Counter).

Psyren
2012-08-20, 09:12 AM
I should also note at this point that all Mortal Kombat characters can take gun shots and grenade blasts without being heavily phased.

This is heavily implied to be due to the rules of Kombat itself, i.e. the Elder Gods meddle with the lethality of certain attacks (until the obligatory "Finish Him!" phase) to keep the fights interesting. Otherwise Stryker would just whip out his deagle and quickly rise to being Earthrealm's defender. If you're invoking Kombat rules over this fight, then MK vs. DC is in fact the proper yardstick for measuring their ability against one another; if not, then Batman's standard array of toys comes into play and SZ is in trouble.

MLai
2012-08-20, 09:16 AM
Considering the game is Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe, I don't see why those abilities would be prohibited... :smallconfused:

Psyren
2012-08-20, 09:57 AM
Considering the game is Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe, I don't see why those abilities would be prohibited... :smallconfused:

They're not, it's just a separate ruleset. In the game's continuity, The Elder Gods forcibly normalized everyone, to the point that Joker could slug it out with Supes, or Catwoman could fight on equal footing with Raiden. Obviously this isn't really conducive to objective measurement of any character's true abilities.

Thinker
2012-08-20, 09:59 AM
This is heavily implied to be due to the rules of Kombat itself, i.e. the Elder Gods meddle with the lethality of certain attacks (until the obligatory "Finish Him!" phase) to keep the fights interesting. Otherwise Stryker would just whip out his deagle and quickly rise to being Earthrealm's defender. If you're invoking Kombat rules over this fight, then MK vs. DC is in fact the proper yardstick for measuring their ability against one another; if not, then Batman's standard array of toys comes into play and SZ is in trouble.
I am skeptical of this. The Elder Gods do not meddle in the tournament itself and only step in after the rules of the realms are violated as when they destroyed Shao Khan in the new timeline. The "Finish Him!" phase is initiated by whoever is hosting the tournament, typically Shang Tsung or Shao Khan.

Further, in the games such as Shaolin Monks, they fight people with guns and are phased about as much as in the games. During Shao Khan's invasion (the events of MK 3), there was no tournament for the warriors of Earthrealm to have been given protection. Either being selected as a champion of Earthrealm, Outworld, or some other world provides a character with extraordinary durability, which would qualify Sub-Zero anyway, or having that durability is a prerequisite.



Considering the game is Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe, I don't see why those abilities would be prohibited... :smallconfused:

Because of this from the OP:

Any reference to Mortal Kombat vs DC will lead to, banning, a strongly worded LETTER. :|

INoKnowNames
2012-08-20, 11:43 PM
I am skeptical of this. The Elder Gods do not meddle in the tournament itself and only step in after the rules of the realms are violated as when they destroyed Shao Khan in the new timeline. The "Finish Him!" phase is initiated by whoever is hosting the tournament, typically Shang Tsung or Shao Khan.

Further, in the games such as Shaolin Monks, they fight people with guns and are phased about as much as in the games. During Shao Khan's invasion (the events of MK 3), there was no tournament for the warriors of Earthrealm to have been given protection. Either being selected as a champion of Earthrealm, Outworld, or some other world provides a character with extraordinary durability, which would qualify Sub-Zero anyway, or having that durability is a prerequisite.

Explain why Shang Tsung is capable of using Guns to kill Elder Gods.

Oh (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality) wait... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArbitraryGunPower)


Because of this from the OP:

Slightly Ironic, since in MK vs DC, Sub Zero actually defeats Batman in the story mode, even thought Batman was powered up by the Kombat Rage.

Yeah, for the record, it wasn't the Elder Gods that powered everyone up and down in MK vs DC. It was the Kombat Rage caused by the fusion of both worlds, and the merging of Shao Khan and Dark Side into Dark Khan through Super Man and Raiden's mutual **** ups into a Boom Tube and Portal respectively.

Also, the Ice Shaker can be blocked, leaving Sub Zero very vunerable to counter attack. And he can be grabbed through it with a grappling hook projectile, something Batman would have access to. (Years of getting my butt kicked by Scorpion certainly taught me that.)

I suppose it's only right to be fair. What defenses does Batman have in the Batcave? If SubZero had a full hour to do whatever he wanted, he could at the very least give Batman hypothermia-oh wait. Doesn't Batman have a Butler who can access Batman's technology, is one of the few people who doesn't fall victim to the "he's the goddamned batman" mindset, and actually is armed? Hell, in some incarnations, didn't he help teach Batman how to fight?

Just throwing more fuel onto the fire for the conversation.

WitchSlayer
2012-08-21, 03:39 AM
First off I think I should say that you cannot really beat the omega beams. No technology or analyzing of patterns will allow you to dodge them. Except in the cartoons because Paul Dini loves Batman.

Secondly this seems massively biased in Batman's favor. I mean jeez it's like putting someone against Legion of Superheroes Karate Kid in a martial arts contest. It is not really fair.

Thirdly the discussion should clearly be about Karate Kid vs all the MK roster

Devonix
2012-08-21, 06:03 AM
First off I think I should say that you cannot really beat the omega beams. No technology or analyzing of patterns will allow you to dodge them. Except in the cartoons because Paul Dini loves Batman.

Secondly this seems massively biased in Batman's favor. I mean jeez it's like putting someone against Legion of Superheroes Karate Kid in a martial arts contest. It is not really fair.

Thirdly the discussion should clearly be about Karate Kid vs all the MK roster

Especially since the Omegabeams travel at the speed of light and can track you with complete precision

Depends on which Karate Kid and which Legion you mean. If its Val he takes em all down easily... At the same time.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-21, 08:47 AM
First off I think I should say that you cannot really beat the omega beams. No technology or analyzing of patterns will allow you to dodge them. Except in the cartoons because Paul Dini loves Batman.

Secondly this seems massively biased in Batman's favor. I mean jeez it's like putting someone against Legion of Superheroes Karate Kid in a martial arts contest. It is not really fair.

Thirdly the discussion should clearly be about Karate Kid vs all the MK roster

http://www.nerdlocker.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Batman_vs__darkseid.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/63458/1658228-batman_darkseid1_super.jpg

And the winner and undefeated champion is...

:smallbiggrin:

Devonix
2012-08-21, 09:29 AM
http://www.nerdlocker.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Batman_vs__darkseid.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/63458/1658228-batman_darkseid1_super.jpg

And the winner and undefeated champion is...

:smallbiggrin:
You do realize you're showing an example of Batman Not being able to dodge the Omega beams.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-21, 09:43 AM
You do realize you're showing an example of Batman Not being able to dodge the Omega beams.

I see it not mattering because Batman just beat Darkseid on the quickdraw.

Admittedly, this is entirely out of context. If the very next panel is Batman getting incinerated by Omega Beams then so be it.

In all seriousness, Darkseid beats Batman nine times out of ten. But Batman is really good at playing those odds. After Darkseid's failed to invade Earth a few times, Batman has the resources and technology to reverse the Boom Tubes and prevent him from getting close in the first place.

But yeah, most of the time Darkseid would be victorious.

GeekGirl
2012-08-21, 09:44 AM
First off I think I should say that you cannot really beat the omega beams. No technology or analyzing of patterns will allow you to dodge them. Except in the cartoons because Paul Dini loves Batman.

In all fairness; I think that had more to do with, It's a kids show, and you probably shouldn't kill off batman on Cartoon Network, then some ones love of batman.

F.H. Zebedee
2012-08-21, 10:11 AM
Just had to link this:
http://www.shortpacked.com/2008/comic/book-6/04-a-poor-mans-mike/mortalkombat/

Seriously, though, durability is awfully hard to measure when you're using gunshots as the yardstick. Batman can tank quite a few bullets, provided they aren't to his throat/exposed face (some comics actually have the Batsuit with a deployable bulletproof screen for that area, as well), since his suit is fairly heavily armored. Bullets are not entirely ignorable for the Mortal Kombat cast; they still hurt, just not lethal wounds, typically.

So it's kinda even. I'd say it's likely that Sub-Zero has superhuman durability and strength, but again: This is not something that Batman hasn't faced. Mr. Freeze is arguably even stronger (like his suit is occasionally shown to be an outright powered exoskeleton) and more durable, and brings the same offensive measure of freeze-power. The only question remaining is if Sub-Zero's defensive freezing powers (ice clones, ice teleports) and martial arts prowess are enough to tip the odds.

In the Batcave? No way.

In Gotham? It'd be a much more fair fight, but Batman doesn't tend to stand and fight Mr. Freeze. He tends to go for hit-and-runs and guerrilla tactics, whittling his foe down until he gets a chance to drop them for sure. That's not the sort of fight Sub-Zero has often been on the receiving end of, as he's primarily fought in hand-to-hand life or death battles. I'd say the odds remain in Batman's favor, albeit not as overwhelming as everybody here makes it out to be.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-21, 12:00 PM
Secondly this seems massively biased in Batman's favor. I mean jeez it's like putting someone against Legion of Superheroes Karate Kid in a martial arts contest. It is not really fair.

Are you talking about the responses to the thread? Or the initial Sub-Zero vs Batman proposal itself?


In all seriousness, Darkseid beats Batman nine times out of ten. But Batman is really good at playing those odds. After Darkseid's failed to invade Earth a few times, Batman has the resources and technology to reverse the Boom Tubes and prevent him from getting close in the first place.

But yeah, most of the time Darkseid would be victorious.

That Batman, as a human (even if he's a genius billionair playboy philanthropist) is capable of spitting in the eyes of a being considered a God. Even if he loses, that he made the super being even blink is enough to write home about.

Canonly, Sub-Zero doesn't seem to fight any super beings, at least if the previously mentioned wiki is to be believed. And most of them get their butts handed to them by humans like Liu Kang. It's a matter of opinion if Batman is better at Martial Arts than LK or not, although in MK vs DC, they're treated as if to be on equal footing, cast as the Lancer to the Hero (Raiden and Superman respectively).


Just had to link this:
http://www.shortpacked.com/2008/comic/book-6/04-a-poor-mans-mike/mortalkombat/

Batman did that without breaking his oath of non-killing. :smallbiggrin:


Seriously, though, durability is awfully hard to measure when you're using gunshots as the yardstick. Batman can tank quite a few bullets, provided they aren't to his throat/exposed face (some comics actually have the Batsuit with a deployable bulletproof screen for that area, as well), since his suit is fairly heavily armored. Bullets are not entirely ignorable for the Mortal Kombat cast; they still hurt, just not lethal wounds, typically.

As I previously sorta noted, that the characters can be shot at and not be killed in battle, yet one has a finishing move that is nothing butt a head-splattering-shot, mainly means that guns are purposely underpowered in the main mk gameplay, less, as another member mentioned, Earthrealm's protector would most likely be whoever the best shot in the world is.

And the same can be said about the lethality of being frozen and smashed against the ground or wall, or being electrified. Everyone gets these awesomely powerful attacks, but they're made far less lethal than they normally would be for the sake of balanced gameplay.

Thinker
2012-08-21, 12:34 PM
Just had to link this:
http://www.shortpacked.com/2008/comic/book-6/04-a-poor-mans-mike/mortalkombat/

Seriously, though, durability is awfully hard to measure when you're using gunshots as the yardstick. Batman can tank quite a few bullets, provided they aren't to his throat/exposed face (some comics actually have the Batsuit with a deployable bulletproof screen for that area, as well), since his suit is fairly heavily armored. Bullets are not entirely ignorable for the Mortal Kombat cast; they still hurt, just not lethal wounds, typically.
I was looking for some sort of baseline. Guns exist in both and are shown (both in the tournament and out of it) to not be as effective against the main characters. If you don't have any sort of yardstick, there can be no real comparison unless you normalize everything and assume that a punch from Sub-Zero is equal to a punch from Batman and I think that approach would heavily skew things even more in Batman's favor.



So it's kinda even. I'd say it's likely that Sub-Zero has superhuman durability and strength, but again: This is not something that Batman hasn't faced. Mr. Freeze is arguably even stronger (like his suit is occasionally shown to be an outright powered exoskeleton) and more durable, and brings the same offensive measure of freeze-power. The only question remaining is if Sub-Zero's defensive freezing powers (ice clones, ice teleports) and martial arts prowess are enough to tip the odds.
Sub-Zero can transform his body into a liquid or a solid at will based on game-canon (though this ability is not really seen as a special move). He can also create objects on the fly out of ice (as seen with his sword and his ice clones). I don't get the feeling that Mr. Freeze is comparable in power to Sub-Zero.



In the Batcave? No way.

In Gotham? It'd be a much more fair fight, but Batman doesn't tend to stand and fight Mr. Freeze. He tends to go for hit-and-runs and guerrilla tactics, whittling his foe down until he gets a chance to drop them for sure. That's not the sort of fight Sub-Zero has often been on the receiving end of, as he's primarily fought in hand-to-hand life or death battles. I'd say the odds remain in Batman's favor, albeit not as overwhelming as everybody here makes it out to be.

I don't think that Sub-Zero wins the fight no matter where it takes place. He's a protagonist with his own title while Sub-Zero isn't. Further, the challenges he overcomes as a member of the Justice League are beyond what Sub-Zero typically fights. Batman basically has the superpowers of always being prepared, meaning that he is never outmatched in any fight. I say this as a MK fanboy and a DC hater.

Psyren
2012-08-21, 03:25 PM
I am skeptical of this. The Elder Gods do not meddle in the tournament itself and only step in after the rules of the realms are violated as when they destroyed Shao Khan in the new timeline. The "Finish Him!" phase is initiated by whoever is hosting the tournament, typically Shang Tsung or Shao Khan.

Further, in the games such as Shaolin Monks, they fight people with guns and are phased about as much as in the games. During Shao Khan's invasion (the events of MK 3), there was no tournament for the warriors of Earthrealm to have been given protection. Either being selected as a champion of Earthrealm, Outworld, or some other world provides a character with extraordinary durability, which would qualify Sub-Zero anyway, or having that durability is a prerequisite.

You do have a point here - certainly MK3 had a whole subplot running about which individuals were "chosen ones," which (among other benefits) protected them from Khan's Soulnado. But that in itself implies some sort of favor from the Elder Gods, since not all the Kombatants were magically, spiritually, racially or technologically endowed, e.g. Sonya Blade, Kano, Kabal and Stryker. Therefore this "durability" must have an external source.

Which then raises the question of whether Sub-Zero would be able to count on being quite so supernaturally tough in a non-Kombat setting.



I don't think that Sub-Zero wins the fight no matter where it takes place. He's a protagonist with his own title while Sub-Zero isn't.

Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Kombat_Mythologies:_Sub-Zero) :smalltongue:

WitchSlayer
2012-08-21, 03:35 PM
Are you talking about the responses to the thread? Or the initial Sub-Zero vs Batman proposal itself?

The initial proposal, not necessarily due to the differing power levels but more making Sub Zero ATTACKING THE BAT CAVE

Thinker
2012-08-21, 04:24 PM
Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Kombat_Mythologies:_Sub-Zero) :smalltongue:

That game was about the original Sub-Zero who became Noob Saibot. Everything that I've been referring to has been the more powerful second Sub-Zero. :smalltongue:

INoKnowNames
2012-08-21, 08:19 PM
Guns exist in both and are shown (both in the tournament and out of it) to not be as effective against the main characters.

I seem to be being ignored, apparently.


I was looking for some sort of baseline. If you don't have any sort of yardstick, there can be no real comparison unless you normalize everything and assume that a punch from Sub-Zero is equal to a punch from Batman

Is there any reason why Sub-Zero's fists would do less damage than Batman's, or vice versa? If we really wanted to, though, it doesn't seem like it'd be unfair to go through their respective material and figure out what each one's physical limits are, to really get down to who the winner would be.


and I think that approach would heavily skew things even more in Batman's favor.

You say that like it's bad to determine who the winner would be.



Sub-Zero can transform his body into a liquid or a solid at will based on game-canon (though this ability is not really seen as a special move). He can also create objects on the fly out of ice (as seen with his sword and his ice clones). I don't get the feeling that Mr. Freeze is comparable in power to Sub-Zero.

I'm having trouble finding it, but hasn't Freeze frozen over a battleship? And Sub-Zero mainly fires -basic- Hadokens capable of freezing for just a few seconds? Heck, Batman punches his hand free from such a blast in the cutscene fight against him in MK vs DC (thought through Kombat Rage, he fights and loses against him, so eh).

Freeze might not be able to create objects out of the fly, but the Ice Clones don't last long, and the Kori-Blade isn't much more affetive than him just punching his target. And those are the only two real objects Sub-Zero has been seen making, otherwise essentially firing Ice-Rays at his target. And I'd definitely give it to Freeze over Sub-Zero when it comes to being a bigger Ice-Threat.

Well, I would if I could find that clip/page, which I can't... for now.

[QUOTE=Psyren;13765447]You do have a point here - certainly MK3 had a whole subplot running about which individuals were "chosen ones," which (among other benefits) protected them from Khan's Soulnado. But that in itself implies some sort of favor from the Elder Gods, since not all the Kombatants were magically, spiritually, racially or technologically endowed, e.g. Sonya Blade, Kano, Kabal and Stryker. Therefore this "durability" must have an external source.

Which then raises the question of whether Sub-Zero would be able to count on being quite so supernaturally tough in a non-Kombat setting.

The Elder Gods seemed rather... lazy, actually, when it came about the rules of Mortal Kombat. They hardly seemed to really get involved at all when they could have been helpful. The "durability" you guys speak of, as I've tried to note several times, and fail to see reason against, is more of a story vs gameplay mechanic. Or maybe I'm missing something; where is this mindset coming from?


Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Kombat_Mythologies:_Sub-Zero) :smalltongue:

Cute, but that's more Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Noob Saibot.


The initial proposal, not necessarily due to the differing power levels but more making Sub Zero ATTACKING THE BAT CAVE

Making Sub Zero fight Batman in Gotham seems like a bad move, to be honest. Batman discovering a portal to outworld and getting involved somehow there by coincidence would make it a bit more even.

I still wonder about Sub Zero surviving Alfred in the Batcave, long enough to even threaten Batman.


That game was about the original Sub-Zero who became Noob Saibot. Everything that I've been referring to has been the more powerful second Sub-Zero. :smalltongue:

I didn't realise that Sub-Zero was stronger than Noob Saibot, at least until Armagedon and the Reboot.

Thinker
2012-08-21, 08:56 PM
I seem to be being ignored, apparently.



Is there any reason why Sub-Zero's fists would do less damage than Batman's, or vice versa? If we really wanted to, though, it doesn't seem like it'd be unfair to go through their respective material and figure out what each one's physical limits are, to really get down to who the winner would be.



You say that like it's bad to determine who the winner would be.

You're not being ignored. Batman can take some gunshots, too. I just hadn't realized that he had acquired super powers :smalltongue:

The fighters in MK are consistently shown throughout the various in-universe games as more powerful than normal human. Batman is pretty consistently (to my knowledge) shown as being the peak of a normal human. You don't need Sub-Zero to be scaled down to Batman's level of fitness for Batman to pretty much auto-win. It just makes things less interesting.

Psyren
2012-08-22, 08:45 AM
That game was about the original Sub-Zero who became Noob Saibot. Everything that I've been referring to has been the more powerful second Sub-Zero. :smalltongue:

He only became more powerful circa Deadly Alliance, when he got the amulet and became Grandmaster of the LK. Until that point, Mythologies is pretty much his power level (even though it was technically about his older brother), as is his power level during the reboot (that is, until he became cyberized.)

Actually, that's a good point - which bloody Sub-Zero are we even talking about?

Thinker
2012-08-22, 09:53 AM
He only became more powerful circa Deadly Alliance, when he got the amulet and became Grandmaster of the LK. Until that point, Mythologies is pretty much his power level (even though it was technically about his older brother), as is his power level during the reboot (that is, until he became cyberized.)

Actually, that's a good point - which bloody Sub-Zero are we even talking about?

I went with the one depicted in more games. I suppose it could be one of four characters: Original Sub-Zero, original timeline; second Sub-Zero, original timeline; original Sub-Zero, new timeline; second (cyber) Sub-Zero, new timeline

INoKnowNames
2012-08-22, 09:56 AM
I went with the one depicted in more games. I suppose it could be one of four characters: Original Sub-Zero, original timeline; second Sub-Zero, original timeline; original Sub-Zero, new timeline; second (cyber) Sub-Zero, new timeline

For the record, the primary sub-zero being talked about, and the one in the most games, is the Second Sub-Zero of the original time line. I think.

DarthArminius
2012-08-22, 02:25 PM
For now, I mean Kuai Liang. Bi Han's brother.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-22, 02:29 PM
For now, I mean Kuai Liang. Bi Han's brother.

Yes, because most people know those names without looking them up. Hell, the first one looks like you're talking about the main character, Liu Kang.