PDA

View Full Version : The Swarm Arrives [3.5 Base Class-Zerg, Tyranids]



Pages : [1] 2

Lix Lorn
2012-08-17, 10:42 PM
Swarmlord
‘The woman you knew is dead. I am the swarm. Vengeance will be mine.’

Background: Swarmlords tend to come in large groups. One Swarmlord reaches the power level to beget another. But sometimes, they merely appear, a strong willed being unleashing their creations upon the world.
Races: Effectively, becoming a Swarmlord is taking on a new race. Their origin, however, can vary.
Other Classes: Most other classes share the same reaction to a Swarmlord. Revulsion. However, practical minded beings find that nonevil Swarmlords are merely a little... odd.
Role: While a backup caster, a Swarmlord contributes best using their Swarmlings, and any infested they can get in the area.
Swarmlords in the World: Good aligned Swarmlords take vast swathes of territory, creating odd, ordered hives and learning of things no-one else would understand.
Evil aligned Swarmlords do roughly the same, but do so with invasion and infestation.
Inspiration: If you can’t tell, I’m not explaining.

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Starting Gold: As Cleric
Starting Age: As Cleric
Class Skills-The Swarmlord’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Psicraft (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4+ Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points per Level: 4+ Int Modifier

Swarmlord


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Power Points
Powers Known
Max Power Level
Evolution Points


1st

+0

+2

+0

+2
Body of the Queen, Seeds of the Swarm
2
1
1
6


2nd

+1

+3

+0

+3
Infestation
5
2
1
8


3rd

+2

+3

+1

+3
-
9
3
1
11


4th

+3

+4

+1

+4
Adaption
14
4
2
15


5th

+3

+4

+1

+4
-
20
5
2
20


6th

+4

+5

+2

+5
Adaption
26
6
2
26


7th

+5

+5

+2

+5
Hive's Might
33
7
3
33


8th

+6/+1

+6

+2

+6
Adaption
41
8
3
41


9th

+6/+1

+6

+3

+6
Assimilation
50
8
3
50


10th

+7/+2

+7

+3

+7
Adaption
60
9
4
60


11th

+8/+3

+7

+3

+7
-
70
10
4
71


12th

+9/+4

+8

+4

+8
Adaption
81
11
4
83


13th

+9/+4

+8

+4

+8
Hives Might II
93
12
5
96


14th

+10/+5

+9

+4

+9
Adaption
106
13
5
110


15th

+11/+6/+1

+9

+5

+9
-
120
14
5
125


16th

+12/+7/+2

+10

+5

+10
Adaption
134
15
6
141


17th

+12/+7/+2

+10

+5

+10
-
149
16
6
158


18th

+13/+8/+3

+11

+6

+11
Embrace of the Swarm, Adaption
165
16
6
176


19th

+14/+9/+4

+11

+6

+11
-
182
17
7
195


20th

+15/+10/+5

+12

+6

+12
Adaption
199
18
7
215



Weapon and Armour Proficiency: A Swarmlord is proficient with light armour, simple and natural weapons only.

Body of the Queen: A Swarmlord of first level has barely begun their path, but it leaves a mark regardless. A Swarmlord is visibly different from her true race, but it may be in an almost imperceptible way. She may have up to two natural attacks. These can be claws, stings, slams, tentacles, or any form of natural attack. Regardless of their type, they deal 1d6+Str damage for a medium Swarmlord. A Swarmlord cannot use these natural weapons in the same full attack as she uses manufactured weapons.

A Swarmlord with no visible natural weapons is hard to tell apart from her race. A spot check, with DC equal to 25 minus the Swarmlord's class level, will reveal that they are something apart. The exact differences will depend on the Swarmlord's specific changes, and the uniqueness of his path.

Obviously, this DC does not take into account the visible effects of Adaptions and Evolutions on the Swarmlord's form. Generally, by 6th-10th level, a Swarmlord is obviously inhuman.
While it is technically possible to make a Swarmlord who has no obvious changes, and has a swarm of unmodified humans, it is recommended that, unless it's a major plot point, they be clearly odd in some way. Emaciated, glowing eyes, brightly coloured hair in an otherwise logically hued society...

As a Swarmlord grows, she becomes closer to her swarm's ideal form. She gains bonus evolution points, that can be used like those she gets for her swarmlings. She may not choose evolutions that an Embraced could not take.
She receives as many evolution points as one third of her total pool, rounded down. She does not gain bonus evolution points based on her ability scores. These points are in addition to her other pools, and may only be spent on herself.

Seeds of the Swarm: A Swarmlord of first level has but a single companion-a small creature, an echo of the future she seeks to forge.

At first level, her minion is a basic Swarmling. It increases in power as her level rises, as shown in the later section. A slain Swarmling can be replaced, by various processes, generally taking a week. What's more, the loss of such a closely linked being is intensely painful, causing two points of charisma damage. This damage heals normally. Swarnlings and evolution points are further described below.

In addition, the first seeds of her Hive Mind grant her a vastly powerful mental resistance. She gains the Iron Will and Force of Personality feats as bonus feats.

Manifesting: A Swarmlord can tap into the powerful gestalt mind of the nascent swarm to affect the world around. She gains a manifester level that begins at level one, and increases by one at any level where she does not gain a new spell level. (So 14th at level 20)
Her powers known and power points are as dictated in the table. Charisma is the relevant ability score. She learns powers from the Psion/Wilder power list.

Infestation: At 2nd level, a prospective Swamlord learns the first and weakest of the ways in which her swarm can grow. She may infest a target with swarm elements, rendering them just another beast as part of the swarm. This target may not be of the Aberration, Construct, Elemental, Outsider, Ooze or Undead types, and may not be a Swarmlord, an Assimilated, or an Embraced.
First, she must strike the target. If they are unwilling, she must succeed on a melee touch attack, and they must be at no more than 25% of their maximum hp.
If successful, the target is engulfed in growths, in a disturbing cocoon. This wakes sleeping or unconscious victims, allowing them to attempt saving throws. An unwilling target has one more chance-a successful fortitude save, with save DC based on the Swarmlord’s Constitution (10+1/2 class level+con mod). If failed, or not attempted, they remain in the cocoon for one day. At the end, they make a will save, with save DC based on the Swarmlord’s Charisma (10+1/2 class level+Cha mod). A success allows them to retain their self and identity. A victim who submitted willingly to the fortitude save may not make a will save.
The victim is subjected to the Infested template. A victim who passes their will save does not apply the traits noted as mental.

Infesting a Swarmlord also effectively renders any of their swarm part of your own swarm. However, a Swarmlord with the Infestation ability is immune to the Infestation ability, unless she chooses to be subject to it.

Infested Template
The first, most feared, and weakest of the Swarm’s corruptions, the Infested are no better than Swarmlings, near mindless drones all but slaved to the Swarm’s leader. Applying the Infested template to an Infested has no effect, except for causing a new saving throw against mental effects, if they were unaffected by them before.

Size and Type: Humanoids change to monstrous humanoids. Vermin and animals change to magical beasts. Other types remain as they were. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice: As new type.

Speed: +10ft base land speed. Others are unchanged.

Armor Class: +1 natural armour, minimum 3.

Attacks: The Infested has two primary natural attacks, generally of the same kind as the Swarmlord that created them. They deal 1d6 damage for a medium creature.

Special Qualities: Hive Mind. This is a mental trait, and is not gained by Infested that pass their will save on creation. However, an Infested who passes their will save MAY choose to be part of the Hive Mind anyway-see the following sidebar.
Healing an Infested
Healing an Infested to their original viewpoint is difficult, but possible for a skilled caster. Remove Curse will always remove the template from a willing Infested, and can be used to restore the intelligence of a subsumed Infested automatically. When using it to remove the template, an unwilling infested is entitled to a will save, and, if part of a swarm, may use the ruling being's will save. More powerful healing magic, such as Greater Restoration or any spell on the level of Limited Wish or greater, gains a +4 bonus to DC, but otherwise has the same effect. Magic such as Wish succeeds automatically, as long as cast with a higher Caster Level than the effective Swarmlord level of the ruling being.
For the purposes of resurrection magic, an Infested is considered dead. As long as their body remains animated as Infested, it cannot be used to bring them back, but when the Infested is slain, it may be used as normal.

Hive Minds-I Am Me And We Are The Swarm
The Hive Minds of the Swarmlords, by and large, are a place where all are one, and one is all. The gestalt consciousness of the swarm is a mixture of every personality within it, bearing the knowledge and memories of them all, valuing every thought and feeling they possess as if it were their own. To be part of such a swarm is to be part of something greater, and to know without a shadow of a doubt that your ‘superior’ knows your concerns and considers them. The members of the swarm almost never question its directives, putting absolute trust in it to consider their objectives as well as its own. Most of the time, this is a safe assumption. The swarm is lessened by every consciousness it loses, and will always seek a path that keeps every member alive. However, when it is necessary, it will spend their lives dearly.
To begin with, the Swarm is identical to the Swarmlord that spawns it, but every sentient being that joins exerts an influence, shifting the swarm’s consciousness towards their own mindset a little. Most Swarms eventually end up bearing very reserved personalities, because of the sheer breadth of ideas and ideologies they encompass.
To live within a Swarm is to live with bonds greater than family or friendship. Many Swarms become akin to religious cults, capable of binding together thousands of disparate people. In the hands of a well intentioned Swarmlord, such a group can spread friendship and joy over great areas. For a more unkind leader, such a zealous group can slay millions before they fall.

Abilities: Str+2, Con +4.
Int 2, Wis 8, Cha 10. These mental ability scores are fixed mental traits, and are not gained by Infested that pass their will save on creation.

Feats: Iron Will. This feat only applies if they have the Hive Mind trait, and are under its effects.

Evolution: An Infested gains a small pool of Evolution points, and can spend them in the same way as a Swarmling. She has evolution points equal to the pool that a Swarmlord would have at half her level. For this purpose, her level is the higher of her HD and her ECL. Normally, Infested do not gain bonus Evolution points based on their or their master’s ability scores. They may spend no more evolution points on a single facet of an ability than the lower of their level and their master’s level.
For example; An Infested with 7 HD and 1 LA has a Swarmlord of level 10. She gains points based on half her level, which is four. She may spend up to eight points on a single facet of an ability. If her Swarmlord was only level 5, she could spend only five points, even though her level was higher.

A Swarmlord who is about to obtain a new Swarmling may instead designate a single Infested she possesses as a Swarmling. It gains the same benefits from the Swarmlord’s levels as a Swarmling would, including bonus evolution points based on ability modifiers, and bonus HD. However, its HD may not be increased past its ECL, or that of the Swarmlord. A Swarmlord gains a +2 racial modifier to all Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Handle Animal, or other social checks made against an intelligent Infested who has been designated as their Swarmling.

LA: +1 (No mental traits), - (Mental traits)

Using the Infestation and Assimilation abilities, the Swarmling can acquire a large following. However, her nascent hive mind can only hold so much. Apart from her Swarmlings, the Swarmlord can control only (4HD per class level + 2HD per level in other class) as part of her swarm. If a creature/being has a higher CR or ECL than its HD, use that instead. HD gained using Evolution Points do not count towards this limit. If creatures controlled in this amount have their own controlled swarms, those creatures do not count towards this limit, although it is recommended that this be watched closely, especially in group games.
Other beings that come into control of swarm beings can control only 2HD per level.

Any being that gains control of more Swarm beings than it can maintain retains control for only one minute per point of Charisma modifier, and cannot control the same being again for twenty four hours, unless their capacity grows.

Adaption: At 4th level, and each second level thereafter, the Swarmlord chooses an Adaption for themselves and their swarm from the following list. Generally, an ability may only be taken once. These Adaptions sometimes take time to manifest-mental or emotional changes tend to be instantaneous, or at the most take an encounter's duration to form, while physical changes manifest over the Swarmlord's next period of at least eight hours of rest.

Adoption and Abdication
Rather than a single ability, this Adaption represents a suite of knowledge of the Swarm's power and intricacies, allowing her to wield her swarm with more finesse.
Firstly, a Swarmlord with this much control can ease herself into orphaned swarms, claiming them for her own. When she comes into hive mind range of any Swarm member belonging to a swarm with no current owner, she may force the Swarm member to make a will save with DC 10+1/2 class level+cha mod or else be subsumed into her own swarm. This ability does not apply to Infested, Assimilated, or Embraced who were not members of swarms, although Infested and Assimilated who were are still valid targets. In addition, Infested and Assimilated swarm members gained in this way must make a new will save to retain their selves, if they still have them.

Secondly, the Adaption allows the Swarmlord to pass down control. To be a valid target, the being must have at least Int 10, as well as being Embraced, Assimilated, a Swarmlord or a Swarmling. The target gains control of any number of the Swarmlord's Swarm, but follows the normal rules on excessive quantities of swarmlings.
The Swarmlord may even submit themself as a member of their successor's swarm.

Creeping Swarm
With insight, practice, or long lost secrets, the Queen learns how to induct the mindless beasts known as Oozes into her swarm. She may use her Infestation, Assimilation, and Embrace abilities on Oozes.

Distant Manifestation
With this Adaption, the Queen links more strongly to her swarm. She may manifest any psionic power she knows as if from the space of any member of her swarm within Hive Mind range. She may use this to apply range (self) abilities to members of her swarm.

This ability may be taken a second time. If it is, the Queen may also use abilities such as spellcasting through her swarm, if she has them.

Taking this ability gives each Swarmling she possesses up to two free points in the Spirit Force evolution, which don’t count towards their cap.

Energy Swarm
Whether through study or constant exposure, the Swarmlord works out the secrets of Elemental creatures. She may use her Infestation, Assimilation, and Embrace abilities on Elementals.

Evolving Swarm
This ability shows a Swarmlord who concentrates on the advancement of her swarm above all else. She treats her Charisma as being two higher for the purposes of determining her bonus Evolution points. This ability may be taken more than once, but may never account for more than half of her Evolutions.

Extraplanar Swarm
With the rising power of her swarm, the Swarmlord expands her control beyond the material plane. She may use her Infestation, Assimilation, and Embrace abilities on Outsiders.

Infestation Queen
Taking this Adaption enhances the numberless minions of the swarm. All Infested creatures possessed by her swarm gain an additional HD, although this may not cause an Infested to have a higher HD than the Swarmlord. Infested gained after this ability is chosen also gain this bonus HD. This grants the Infested bonus evolution points, if it raises their HD high enough. This ability may be taken more than once.

Ironscales
This Adaption grants hardened skin to the Swarmlord, allowing her to shrug off many attacks. She gains a bonus to her Natural Armour equal to her Constitution modifier, as well as Resist equal to half that amount.
Resist functions as a combination of Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance. It reduces all damage taken by that many points, but is defeated and reduced by effects that do so to either DR or Energy Resistance.

Taking this ability gives each Swarmling she possesses up to two free points in the Armoured Hide evolution, which don’t count towards their cap.

Lord Above
This Adaption greatly increases the size of the Swarmlord. She increases by one size category, gaining +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex and the standard size based changes to attack and skill rolls. These ability scores are instead of the usual changes to ability scores.

Taking this ability gives each Swarmling she possesses up to two free points in the Size Increase evolution, which don’t count towards their cap.

Pinnacle Swarm
This Adaption allows a Swarm to surpass its limitations. The Swarmlord chooses a single Evolution available to her Swarmlings. She may add four more points into that pool than she would be allowed to based on her level.

This Adaption may be taken more than once, but each Evolution may only be chosen once.

Sky Swarm
This ability grants a Swarmlord great wings, or some other means of aerial propulsion. She gains a flight speed of 30ft (Average), +10ft for each five levels she possesses, and increasing in manoeuvrability by one stage for each ten levels she possesses.

Taking this ability gives each Swarmling she possesses up to two free points in the Movement (Flight) evolution, which don’t count towards their cap.

Subtlety
This ability allows the Swarmlord to hide all abilities and changes from her Swarmlord class levels from sight, making her look like a normal member of her race. Hiding them requires a full round action. Regaining them again requires a move action.

Synthetic Swarm
With an uncanny understanding of technology, the Swarm moves beyond the biological. She may use her Infestation, Assimilation, and Embrace abilities on Constructs.

Swarm Beyond
This ability represents a Swarmlord who has gazed into the abyss until it began to stare back, and made it regret it. She may use her Infestation, Assimilation, and Embrace abilities on Aberrations.

This Land is Mine
This ability is an odd one, that allows a Swarmlord to infest the very ground. Once a week, she may create a Creep Tumour in the ground, which will infest everything around it at a rate of 20ft/hour, lasting for a number of hours equal to the Swarmlord's class level. After this, it will grow at one foot per day, or until it meets some form of fortified wall, which is necessary to keep it out. A Creep Tumour is considered an object, and has a number of hit points equal to six times the Swarmlord's levels. It always passes fortitude and will saves, but always fails reflex saves. If destroyed, any creep that is no longer linked to a tumour will melt towards its centre, reducing its radius at a rate of 20ft/hour.
Swarm creatures on creep, including Creep Tumours, gain Fast Healing 2 (Or +2 if they possess it already), and increase all speeds by 10ft. In addition, non swarm creatures on creep must make a fortitude save at the end of any week they spend living there or else risk infestation.

Undying Swarm
This ability means that the Swarmlord does not fear death. Death is merely another tool, as are the dead. She may use her Infestation, Assimilation, and Embrace abilities on Undead.

Weapons of the Queen
This ability grants vastly improved weapons to the Queen. She may gain an additional natural weapon for each five levels she possesses, and she may grant an enhancement bonus to each of her weapons equal to a third of her class level. Points of enhancement bonus may be traded for special abilities, and the enhancement bonus may not surpass 5.

Taking this ability gives each Swarmling she possesses up to two free points in the Additional/Enhanced Natural Weapon evolution, which don’t count towards their cap.

Hive's Might: A Swarmlord lacks subtlety with her powers, but she does not lack power. At seventh level, she adds one to the save DC of any power she manifests. At thirteenth level, this increases to a +2 bonus.

Assimilate: At 9th level, a Swarmlord masters the second form of growth for her Swarm, known as Assimilation. Assimilation is feared because it destroys the will, but leaves behind skill and knowledge to be used by the Swarm. This target may not be of the Aberration, Construct, Elemental, Outsider, Ooze or Undead types, and may not be a Swarmlord or an Embraced.
First, she must strike the target. If they are unwilling, she must succeed on a ranged (5ft/class level) or melee touch attack, and they must be at no more than 50% of their maximum hp.
If successful, the target is engulfed in growths, in a disturbing cocoon. This wakes sleeping or unconscious victims, allowing them to attempt saving throws.
An unwilling target has one more chance-a successful fortitude save, with save DC based on the Swarmlord’s Constitution (10+1/2 class level+Con mod). If failed, or not attempted, they remain in the cocoon for one week. At the end, they make a will save, with save DC based on the Swarmlord’s Charisma (10+1/2 class level+Cha mod). A success allows them to retain their self and identity. A victim who submitted willingly to the fortitude save may not make a will save.
The victim is subjected to the Assimilated template. A victim who passes their will save does not have to apply the Hive Mind trait, although they may.

Assimilating a Swarmlord also effectively renders any of their swarm part of your own swarm. However, a Swarmlord with the Assimilate ability is immune to the Assimilate ability, unless she chooses to be subject to it. Embraced are likewise immune, unless they willingly subject themself to the assimilation.

Assimilated Template
The second, and often the most common of the Swarm’s corruptions, Assimilated are far stronger than the infested, retaining all the power they had in life. If the Assimilated template would be applied to a creature that already possesses it, they risk only a change in alliegiance, although the template supercedes the Infested template.

Size and Type: Humanoids change to monstrous humanoids. Vermin and animals change to magical beasts. Other types remain as they were. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice: As new type.

Speed: +10ft base land speed. Others are unchanged.

Armor Class: +3 natural armour, minimum 5.

Attacks: The Assimilated has two primary natural attacks, generally of the same kind as the Swarmlord that created them. They deal 1d6 damage for a medium creature.

Special Qualities: Hive Mind. This trait represents that the Assimilated is part of the Swarm's gestalt mind. If he failed his save, his identity, while still distinct, is perfectly loyal to the swarm. It is usually not gained by an Assimilated who passes his will save. A Swarmlord may choose not to cause this perfect loyalty effect.
Healing an Assimilated
Healing an Infested to their original viewpoint is difficult, but possible for a skilled caster. Remove Curse will allow an Assimilated a new Will save to regain their own personality, while magic such as Limited Wish will allow this automatically. Removing the template is harder, requiring magic like Limited Wish, and giving them a saving throw against it, which is made using their Ruling Being's saving throw, if better. A full Wish spell or similar magic gains a +4 to DC.
An Assimilated is still alive, and cannot be resurrected. If killed and resurrected, they do not retain the template.

Abilities: Str+4, Dex +2, Con +6, Int +2, Cha +2.

Feats: Iron Will. This feat only applies if they have the Hive Mind trait, and are under its effects.

Evolution: An Assimilated gains a pool of Evolution points, and can spend them in the same way as a Swarmling. She has evolution points equal to the pool that a Swarmlord would have at three quarters of her level. For this purpose, her level is the higher of her HD and her ECL. Normally, Assimilated do not gain bonus Evolution points based on their or their master’s ability scores. They may spend no more evolution points on a single facet of an ability than the lower of their level and their master’s level.
For example; An Assimilated with 9 HD and 3 LA has a Swarmlord of level 14. She gains points based on three quarters of her level, which is eight. She may spend up to twelve points on a single facet of an ability. If her Swarmlord was only level 10, she could spend only ten points, even though her level was higher.

A Swarmlord who is about to obtain a new Swarmling may instead designate a single Assimilated she possesses as a Swarmling. It gains the same benefits from the Swarmlord’s levels as a Swarmling would, including bonus evolution points based on ability modifiers, and bonus HD. However, its HD may not be increased past its ECL, or that of the Swarmlord. A Swarmlord gains a +2 racial modifier to all Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Handle Animal, or other social checks made against an Assimilated who has been designated as their Swarmling.

LA: +3 (Retains personality and views), - (Serves the Swarm)

Embrace of the Swarm: At 18th level, the Swarmlord learns the mightiest of her techniques, which makes a target a true being of the swarm. She may do so only a single time in a day, regardless of failure. On succeeding, the drain means she cannot do so again for an entire month. This target may not be of the Aberration, Construct, Elemental, Outsider, Ooze or Undead types.
First, she must strike the target. If they are unwilling, she must succeed on a ranged (10ft/level) or melee touch attack.
If successful, the target is engulfed in growths, in a disturbing cocoon. This wakes sleeping or unconscious victims, allowing them to attempt saving throws.
An unwilling target has one more chance-a successful fortitude save, with save DC based on the Swarmlord’s Constitution (10+1/2 class level+con mod). If failed, or not attempted, they remain in the cocoon for one month.
The victim is subjected to the Embraced template.

Embracing a Swarmlord Does NOT automatically render their swarm part of your own swarm, although a Swarmlord may always subject themselves willingly to part of another swarm. However, a Swarmlord with the Embrace ability is highly resistant to forcible Embrace, and may claim a +5 racial bonus on their saving throw.

Embraced Template
The greatest and rarest of the Swarm, the Embraced are mighty creatures on a par with the Swarmlords themselves. Applying the Embraced template to a creature that already possesses it has no effect, but it supercedes both Infested and Assimilated templates.

Size and Type: Humanoids change to monstrous humanoids. Vermin and animals change to magical beasts. Other types remain as they were. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice: As new type.

Speed: +20ft base land speed. Others are unchanged.

Armor Class: +8 natural armour, minimum 12.

Attacks: The Embraced has two primary natural attacks, generally of the same kind as the Swarmlord that created them. They deal 1d8 damage for a medium creature.

Special Qualities: Hive Mind. Regardless of origin, an Embraced retains all intelligence, opinions, and personality. 'Healing' an Embraced is impossible for known magic. They are still alive, and resurrection magic does not apply to them. Usually, a slain Embraced who is returned to life keeps her template.

Abilities: Str+8, Dex +6, Con +10, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +8.

Feats: Iron Will.

Evolution: An Embraced gains a large pool of Evolution points, and can spend them in the same way as a Swarmling. She has evolution points equal to the pool that a Swarmlord would have at her level. For this purpose, her level is the higher of her HD and her ECL. An Embraced gains additional Evolution Points based on their level and their charisma modifier, treating their swarmlord level as half their level. They may spend no more evolution points on a single facet of an ability than the higher of their level and their master’s level.
For example; An Embraced with 12 HD and 6 LA has a Charisma score of 24. She gains points based on her level, which is eighteen. She may spend up to eighteen points on a single facet of an ability. In addition, she gains bonus evolution points equal to half her level multipled by her charisma modifier, giving her an additional sixty three evolution points to spend on each Swarmling she possesses, as well as herself.

An Embraced may trade in a single HD or character level for a level in Swarmlord when she acquires tis template.

LA: +6

Favoured Class: An Embraced gains Swarmlord as a new favoured class.

QuantumTsochar
2012-08-18, 08:44 PM
I'm going to play one of these in my campaign. I love being a DM....but, back on point. I like this class. The infestation process seems like it has enough checks to prevent cheese. Right now, this class is an awesome Psychic Warrior, which fits well with the Tyranids and Kerrigan's back story. I do think the HD needs to be dropped to 8, to keep it in line with the Psychic Warrior.

My biggest issue with the class right now is the manifesting. I feel that having access to any power up to tier 8 with everything else the class has to offer is too much. Maybe a themed power list is in order. Also, the first four dead levels in the manifesting hurts in the early levels. How about not increasing the manifester levels at 4, 8, 12 and 16, like a prestige class?

Also, I'm throwing in a swarmling suggestion: Gentleman Cho'gath. Improved Grab + Swallow Whole + Size Increase + Mind over Matter + Diplomacy + Aberration Blood [Tail] + Scavenging Gullet. "NOM NOM...Your argument, good sir, has been nullified by my gullet."

Congrats for another awesome homebrew....FOR THE SWARM!

Edit: Forgot about Aberration Blood

Lix Lorn
2012-08-18, 09:35 PM
The Swarm-Swarmlings, Minions, and Mighty Beasts

A first level Swarmlord has a Swarmling companion.

Swarmling
Size/Type: Small Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 1d10 (10hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft land
Armor Class: 14 (10+2 dex+1 size+1 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: +4 Natural (1d4)
Full Attack: +4/+4 Natural (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Hive Mind
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 8, Cha 12
Skills: Hide +2, Move Silently +2
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Iron Will B
Alignment: True Neutral, or As Controller
Advancement: By Swarmlord

A Swarmling has two primary natural weapons. These may be of any type, but generally match those of the Swarmlord.

The Swarmling’s Iron Will feat applies only when it has an influence controlling it, whether a swarmlord or a creature evolved for the purpose.

Hive Mind: A Swarmling is controlled by its Swarmlord. As long as it remains within 10ft/class level of the Swarmlord, it may use the Swarmlord’s mental ability scores and skills, where they’re better. A Swarmling is, by default, subsumed into the hive mind, and its animal intelligence grants no real value. Swarmlings with higher Intelligence can have distinct personalities, and strong swarmlings can give the hive Mind a Self of its own.

The Swarmling improves in two main ways. It gains flat bonuses as the Swarmlord increases in levels-bonuses to physical ability scores, HD and armor. The Swarmlord also gains a pool of evolution points, shown in the class table, which it may spend on abilities from the lists below for its Swarmlings. Whenever it gains new evolution points, they are applied and chosen when the Swarmling next takes a period of rest of at least eight hours.



Swarmlord Level
Benefits
Bonus Evolution Points at Cha 18


1
-
2


2
+1HD, +1 NA, +1 Ability
4


3
+1HD, +2 NA
6


4
+2HD, +2 NA
8


5
+2HD, +3 NA, +2 Ability
10


6
+3HD, +4 NA
12


7
+3HD, +5 NA
14


8
+4HD, +5 NA, +3 Ability
16


9
+4HD, +6 NA
18


10
+5HD, +7 NA
20


11
+5HD, +8NA, +4 Ability
22


12
+6HD, +8 NA
24


13
+6HD, +9 NA
26


14
+7HD, +10 NA, +5 Ability
28


15
+7HD, +11 NA
30


16
+8HD, +11 NA
32


17
+8HD, +12 NA, +6 Ability
34


18
+9HD, +13 NA
36


19
+9HD, +14 NA
38


20
+10HD, +14 NA, +7 Ability
40


At second level, and each subsequent even level, the Swarmling gains an additional Magical Beast HD, and the concurrent increases to saves, base attack bonus, feat progression, skills (if they have the necessary Int), and bonus ability point at each fourth level.

Where marked in the table, the Swarmling increases his Natural Armor by the amount shown.

At second level, and each third level thereafter, the Swarmling may increase any of his ability scores by one. This is in addition to the increase gained at each fourth hit die.

Evolution Points
Evolution points are spent on enhancing the Swarm. The Swarmlord may spend no more points on a single scaling value than her level, and shares her pool of points among all Swarmlings. She may spend points from this pool to enhance herself, or infested/assimilated/enhanced under her command. When Infested/Assimilated/Embraced templates refer to the number of evolution points gained at a certain point, they refer to this primary pool.
For example; Burning Touch deals 1d4 damage for each third point. A Swarmlord may spend no more points on this damage than her level. However, a sixth level swarmlord could spend six points on the damage, and then two more points on making it dismissable.

A Swarmlord gains bonus Evolution points for each Swarmling she rules, which may only be applied to that being. These bonus points are equal to the bonus Power points gained by a psionic character for high abilities, using Charisma as the governing ability score. The Swarmling table shows the value of these bonus points for a Swarmlord with 18 Cha.
A Swarmling does not lose evolution points when the Swarmlord loses Charisma.
They gain one evolution point per level for each two points of Charisma modifier. The full table is available here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters).

Additional/Enhanced Natural Weapon
A single point in this ability grants one additional natural weapon. Each additional weapon costs one point more than the previous. (Therefore, two additional weapons cost 1+2=3 points.)
These weapons are secondary natural weapons. For an additional two points spent on a single weapon, it may be considered primary.

Points can also be spent to enhance the weapons in one of many ways. Firstly, weapon abilities or enhancements may be added. An effective enhancement bonus costs one point for a +1 bonus, two points for a +2, and each increase of one beyond that costs one more point than the previous. (1 for +1, 2 for +2, 4 for +3, 7 for +4). These points may be exchanged for special weapon abilities. The flat bonus may not surpass five until the Swarmlord reaches twenty-first level.

One point put to the purpose increases the damage of one natural weapon as if by a size increase. Each additional increase costs one more point than the previous. (One point for one increase, three for two, six for three...) This is calculated and limited per weapon.

Each third point can increase the weapon’s range. Three points give it a 30ft range, and each third extra point doubles its range.

One point allows a weapon to function as nonlethal without penalty. Two convert a weapon’s damage to one of the four basic energy types. (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire). Four can convert a weapon to a more esoteric energy type such as Sonic or Desiccation, and eight allow a damage type such as Force with innate abilities.

Two points increase a weapon’s base critical threat range OR critical damage range by one. (to 19-20 or x3). Seven points increase both.

Alternate Type
Rather than a Magical Beast, the Swarmling has the abilities and drawbacks of some other type. The Swarmlord must be able to infest the chosen type.
Infested, Assimilated, Embraced and Swarmlords do not need to take this ability for the type they have due to their race. They are considered to already have the relevant 'Alternate Type' evolution. If the evolution gives an ability they already possess due to their type, use the better version.
Elemental: The Swarmling has darkvision out to 60ft, and has 50% fortification against critical hits and precision damage. It does not require sleep or air. However, if killed, it cannot be resurrected with Raise Dead, Reincarnate, or Resurrection. More powerful magic like Limited Wish or True Resurrection is needed.
An Elemental gains up to three free points in the Burning Touch evolution, which do not count towards its cap.
Elemental HD have an eight sided hit dice, and provide BAB equal to 3/4 of its HD. They have one good save of their choice, appropriate to their element. They are not normally proficient with weapons or armor. Swapping from Magical Beast to Elemental costs 2 points.
Humanoid: Instead of HD, the Swarmling gains levels in Warrior. Each third level, they may take a level in any other class of their choice, assuming they qualify. If they gain casting or manifesting levels this way, they may not also take Spirit Force. A Swarmling of this type uses the base statistics of any humanoid race with LA 0. Swapping from Magical Beast to Humanoid costs 6 points.
Ooze: The Swarmling has blindsight equal to 20ft+5ft per HD, and may be blind otherwise. If blind, it is immune to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. It has BAB equal to 3/4 of its HD, and no good saving throws. It is not proficient with any weapons or armor. However, it does not require sleep, and is immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, precision damage and stunning. Most oozes are capable of adjusting their form to slip through gaps, and get a +2 racial bonus to Escape Artist and Disguise checks. Swapping from Magical Beast to Ooze costs 7 points.

Armoured Hide
Each point in this ability adds one to the Swarmling’s Natural Armour. Each third points instead grants a point of Resist.
Resist is described under the Ironscales Swarmlord Evolution. It resists all damage except that which explicitly penetrates resistances of all kind.

Bonus Feats
Each second point put in this ability grants a bonus feat. All prerequisites must be met. Only Swarmlings may take this evolution; Infested, Assimilated and Embraced may not.

Bonus Hit Die
Each second point put in this ability grants an additional HD. These HD never count towards granting additional evolution points. A being may not have more HD from this ability than he has otherwise. Infested, Assimilated, and Embraced may only take this evolution if their HD is less than their ECL, and HD gained from it do not count towards their ECL. (Note that humanoid beings of the swarm gain levels of Warrior rather than hit dice and may take a level in any class of their choice every third time this evolution grants them a level. If they access a manifesting/casting class this way, they may not also take Spirit Force. These levels still do not count towards their ECL.)

Burning Touch
The Swarmling is painful to the touch. It deals bonus damage on a successful physical attack, as well as on contact or being struck. Contact or bonus attack damage is equal to their con modifier, plus 1d4 for each third point in this ability, while damage on being struck is 1 per third point. For two seperate points, this damage can be suppressed. This damage is acid damage. Other common energy types can be substituted for 1 point, rare ones for three points, or physical damage types for free.
For two points, the Burning Touch may also be projected at range. This is a secondary natural weapon with 20ft range, and may be enhanced with the enhanced natural weapon evolution. (Each third range point doubles it.)
Acid is strictly better than slashing or bashing or piercing.

Enhanced Ability
For each point spent on this ability, the Swarmling adds one as an inherent bonus to any one ability score, stacking with all others.
Swarmlords, as well as Infested, Assimilated, and Embraced find it more difficult to have their potential extensively boosted in the same way as Swarmlings, and add one as an inherent bonus for each two points.

Alternatively, a Swarmling may reduce an ability score by two or more. Each abiltiy score reduced in this way, to a minimum of 2, grants a single bonus evolution point.
This is mostly for fluff.

Entangling Blast
The Swarmling has an ability that traps a target in place. This costs at least four points, and grants an ability usable once per encounter to make a ranged attack. The target must pass a reflex save or become entangled for one round, and be trapped on the ground. The square they stand on causes anyone who stands on it at the beginning of their round to pass a reflex save or become Entangled for 1 round. The Save DC is equal to 10+1/2HD+Con mod. For three more points, the ability may be used a number of times per encounter equal to half the Swarmling's Charisma modifier.
Two points can be spent to apply the entangling effects of this ability to the Swarmling's Final Ending, if they have it. In this case, the entangling remains on the ground for the entire area of his explosion.

Final Ending
For at least five points, this ability grants the Swarmling an explosive end. When killed, they explode, dealing either fire or acid* damage to each creature within 5ft/HD. This damage is equal to 1d6 for each second point put into this ability, plus the Swarmling's con mod. A successful reflex save halves this damage.
Points can also be spent to make this a persistent damage effect. For each two points spent on this effect, the area remains dangerous, dealing the same number of dice, as d4s, plus his con mod to each creature that begins his turn on the area. A reflex save halves that damage.
Infested with this ability can be manually destroyed by the Swarmlord, using a standard action. They are immediately reduced to -10hp, and explode. Obviously, only Hive Mind infested can be destroyed this way.
Other damage types could also work. Maybe physical damage types are 1d8, rare types 1d4.

Form of Blades
For three points, the Swarmling is considered to possess Armor Spikes. The Swarmling is considered proficient. For two more points, she may suppress the spikes at will.
This is one of many evolutions I added in to allow a specific creature to be recreated; a Sharp gloople from Amorphous, to be precise. I encourage making stuff up too! And showing me so I can steal it! :smalltongue:

Hive Node
Three points in this ability allow the Swarmling to function as if within Hive Mind range at all times. More points than this allow the Swarmling to control other members of the swarm as if it were a Swarmlord of class level equal to the number of points in this ability minus three.

Martial Expertise
Each second point in this ability grants a maneuver known. The second point and each third thereafter grants a maneuver readied.
Each sixth point grants a stance.
The Swarmling has an initiator level equal to half the points put into this ability. It uses Wisdom as its mental ability score for Initiation, but may purchase a feat called Glorious Monster or Cunning Beast to change this to Charisma or Intelligence respectively.

If the swarmling already possesses initiating ability, it adds these maneuvers known and readied, and its known stances, to those gained from the class. It uses that class' initiating ability score.

A Swarmling may recover a number of maneuvers of its choice equal to half its initiating ability modifier by spending a full round action in communication with its ruling intelligence. If it has none, it may regain a single maneuver in meditation.
This method of recovery may be used in addition to any gained through classes, and works on the maneuvers of that class.
A Swarmling without this ability does not count its HD towards initiator level.

Mind Over Matter
For five points, the Swarmling suffers -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, but gains +8 Int, +2 Wis. Only creatures with Int 2 or less may take this evolution.

Movement
For every two evolution points invested in this ability, a swarmling may increase an existing movement speed by 10ft.
For three points a swarmling may gain a climb, burrow or swim speed of 30ft. These may be enhanced as normal through this ability. Climb or burrow speeds give the normal benefits to the relevant checks - a +8 racial bonus, the ability to 'run' in a straight line, and the ability to take 10 even when rushed or threatened. A Burrowing swarmling leaves a tunnel behind that lasts for several hours, and can be used by any creature of its size or smaller.
For five points a swarmling may gain a fly speed of 30ft, maneuverability of Average.
For every four points invested in increasing the fly movement speed, the maneuverability of the fly speed is increased by one category, up to a maximum of perfect
A Swarmling with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. The same applies to a Swarmling with a swim speed in relation to Swim checks.

Mutable Form
This Evolution allows a Swarmling to adapt to the situation. Each third point in this ability grants two floating evolution points. As a full round action, the Swarmling may assign these points to any Evolution he qualifies for, other than Alternate Type, Bonus Feats and Spirit Force. If a Swarmling would gain additional spells or spell slots from this Evolution, they are not gained until he has rested for at least one hour.

Preternatural Skill
Two points in this ability allows the Swarmling to choose a single skill. That skill becomes a class skill permanently.
I really, really recommend using retroactive skill points for Swarmlings, even if you don’t use it for anyone/thing else. I’m also leery about letting someone take this repeatedly, but… what’s the worst that can happen?

Size Change
Two points placed into this ability causes the Swamling to increase or decrease in size. An increase grants +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, and an additional point of natural armour. A decrease grants -2 Con, and +4 Dex. These replace the usual ability score changes from changing size, but other size bonuses change to fit the new size. Each additional increase costs one more than the previous. (Two for one increase, five for two increases, nine for three...)

Special Attacks/Qualities
A Swarmling can spend points to gain special abilities. Each one is considered a separate ability for purpose of the (level) cap of evolution points.
Alternate Form-3+ points, grants a single humanoid or monstrous humanoid form with CR no greater than half the points spent. May be taken additional times for additional forms. Each form with zero LA after the first costs only one point.
Blindsight-4 points, but only 2 if the swarmling possesses Darkvision. This ability has range equal to 20ft+5ft/HD.
Breath Weapon-5 points grant a breath weapon dealing 3d6 damage, of a single basic energy or physical damage type. Each two additional points increases this damage by one dice. The reflex save DC is constitution based, and the weapon may be used once every 1d4 rounds. The weapon is either a 30ft+5ft/HD line, or a 15ft+5ft/2HD cone. Three additional points may instead grant an alternate damage type, with the same damage, or the other shape.
Constrict-4 points grant a constrict attack for 1d6+1.5Str. This damage can be enhanced as if a natural attack.
Darkvision-One point grants the Low Light Vision ability. Two points instead grant Darkvision, with a range of 30ft+5ft/HD.
Energy Drain-Eight points grant the ability to, once per encounter, deal 1d4 negative levels with a melee touch attack. Each additional three points allow it to be used an additional time per encounter. For a full twenty points, it is applied on every successful melee attack. The save DC is charisma based.
Evasion-Two points grant the Evasion ability. For five points, this is increased to Improved Evasion.
Fast Healing-Each three points put into this ability grant Fast Healing 1. An additional two points grant the limb-regenerative ability of Regeneration.
Frightful Presence-Six points grant the Frightful Presence ability. The save DC is Charisma based.
Improved Grab-This ability grants the Swarmling the Improved Grab ability in conjunction with one attack they possess. It costs three points per attack.
Lightning Charge-For two points, the Swarmling triples their speed when making charges.
Mettle-Two points grant the Mettle ability. For five points, this is increased to Improved Mettle.
Paralysis-Nine points grants the Swarmling a paralytic ability. This requires a successful melee touch attack, and grants the victim a fortitude save vs the effect. The save DC is Wisdom based. If failed, they are paralysed for a number of rounds equal to the Swarmlord's class level.
Poison-Four points grants a poison. This is either a contact poison doing 1d6 ability damage, or an injury poison dealing 2d4.
Contact poisons are delivered as touch attacks, and do no other damage. (These are usually melee, but can be ranged for 1 point (10ft), +2 points doubles range each time).
Injury poisons are delivered in addition to another attack, and take effect if it deals at least one point of damage. The attack to be used with the poison must be chosen when this evolution is chosen.
Five points increases the damage by 1d6/2d4. Each additional increase costs one more than the last.
Pounce-Six points grants the Pounce special ability.
Scent-Three points grants the Scent special ability.
Swallow Whole-Six points, required Improved Grab applied to a bite attack. A swallowed foe takes 2d4 acid and bludgeoning damage per three points spend on this ability. For 1 additional point, it can be applied to a different type of attack.
This requires explanation: An ooze could use this in conjunction with a slam, for example.
Trample-Costs three points, and works on any size creature, dealing damage equal to 1d4 for a small creature, increasing by size. This damage can also be increased as if a natural weapon. Save DC is Str based.
If it’s covered in spikes, it can be half your size, you still don’t want it running over you.

Spirit Force
This ability grants psionic or magical ability to a Swarmling. It may be taken twice separately to gain both.
Each third point gives a single level of casting or manifesting, as if a Psion or a Sorcerer of that many levels. This casting/manifesting is Intelligence based, and has a caster/manifester level of the number of points invested into this ability.
If co-operative spellcasting/manifesting exists in your campaign, only a single being from the same swarm may participate-their powers come from the same source, and do not multiply each other.

This casting/manifesting stacks with actual caster levels in those classes, to a maximum caster/manifester level equal to their ECL.

The Swarm Grows
For six points, the Swarmlord now has a second Swarmling. For twelve points, he has three. For eighteen points, he has four. The Swarmlings share the same pool of Evolution Points, and must buy evolutions seperately, but otherwise gain abilities at the same speed.
Obviously, Swarmlings, Infested, and Assimilated cannot choose this ability.

Sample Swarmlings
Gloople (Based on the flash game Amorphous+)
Size/Type: Medium Ooze
Hit Dice: 6d10 (63hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft land
Armor Class: 19 (10+2 dex+7 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+4
Attack: +7 Slam (1d4+Burning Touch+Grab)
Full Attack: +7/+7 Slam (1d4+Burning Touch+Grab)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Burning Touch 1d4+4 acid, Improved Grab, Swallow Whole
Special Qualities: Blindsight 70ft, Hive Mind
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 8, Cha 12
Skills: Hide +2, Move Silently +2
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Iron Will B. Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus (Slam)
Alignment: True Neutral, or As Controller
Advancement: By Swarmlord

+3 HD, +5 NA, +2 ability from Swarmlord levels, +1 ability from HD
7 points spent on Alternate Type: Ooze
3 points spent on Burning Touch
5 points spent on Enhanced Ability : +4 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Str
6 points spent on Improved Grab (Slam)
4 points spent on Swallow Whole
2 points spent on Size Change
4 points spent on Additional Hit Dice

Designed for a 7th level Swarmlord, with room for a second Swarmling of almost identical power

Zergling (From the Zerg of Starcraft) (Needs updates)
Size/Type: Small Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 6d10 (39hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40ft land
Armor Class: 21 (10+4 dex+1 size+6 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: +9 Claw (1d6+1 (19-20))
Full Attack: +9/+9 Claws (1d4+1 (19-20))
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Hive Mind
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +3
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 12
Skills: Hide +2, Move Silently +2
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Iron Will B, Improved Toughness, Dodge
Alignment:As Controller
Advancement: By Swarmlord

+4 HD, +5 NA, +3 Ability from Swarmlord levels, +1 ability from HD
Four Points Spent on Enhanced Abilities
Three points spent on enhanced critical range
Two points spent on increased movement speed
Four points spent on weapon damage
Two points spent on another HD
One spare point

Swarmlord Level 8

Zoanthrope (From the Tyranids of Warhammer 40k) (Needs updates)
Size/Type: Small Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 5d10 (10hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft land
Armor Class: 20 (10+2 dex+1 size+7 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: +4 Natural (1d4)
Full Attack: +4/+4 Natural (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Psionics (Psion level 3)
Special Qualities: Hive Mind
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18
Skills: Hide +2, Move Silently +2, Knowledge (Psionics) +8, Knowledge (Arcana) +8
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Iron Will B, Practiced Manifestor
Alignment: True Neutral, or As Controller
Advancement: By Swarmlord

Psionics: 18 PP, 7 powers known, max level 2.
Recommended Powers: Mind Thrust, Force Screen, Inertial Armor, Precognition (Defensive), Vigor, Concussion Blast, Cloud Mind

+4 HD, +6 NA, +3 abilities from Swarmlord levels
Nine points on Spirit Force
Six points in Enhanced Abilities
Five points in Mind Over Matter

Swarmlord Level 9

Ultralisk (From the Zerg of Starcraft) (Needs Updates)
Size/Type: Huge Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 8d10 (92hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30ft land
Armor Class: 22 (10-1 dex-2 size+15 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+16
Attack: +13 Gore (2d6 x3)
Full Attack: +13/+13 Gore (2d6 x3)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Trample
Special Qualities: Hive Mind
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 8, Con 20, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 12
Skills: Hide -6, Move Silently -6
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Iron Will B, Power Attack, Improved Toughness
Alignment: True Neutral, or As Controller
Advancement: By Swarmlord

+7 HD, +11NA, +5 abilities
Nine points in size increase (+6 Str, -6 Dex, +6 Con, +3 NA)
Six points in Increased Abilities
Three x two= Six points on increased critical multiplier
Nine x two=Eighteen points on increased weapon damage
Five points on Trample

44/56 points, level 15 Swarmlord minimum.

Feats
Gentle Queen
Prerequisites: At least one level in Swarmlord.
Benefit: When using the Infestation or Assimilation abilities, you may allow the victim to automatically pass their will save. In the case of the former, you may allow them to pass even if they would usually not be able to make a save. Alternatively, you may allow them to gain the Hive Mind trait, but to keep their personality and viewpoint.

Rapid Evolution
Prerequisites: At least one Swarmlord Adaption
Benefit: You may choose an additional Adaption that you do not already possess. You must meet all prerequisites.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, each time choosing an Adaption you have not yet taken.

Queen's Guidance
Prerequisites: About to or already have taken at least one level of Swarmlord.
Benefit: Class abilities usually based on Charisma, including Manifesting, are instead based on Wisdom. A Swarmlord with this feat may choose not to gain the Force of Personality feat at first level.

Shrewd Queen
Prerequisites: About to or already have taken at least one level of Swarmlord.
Benefit: Class abilities usually based on Charisma, including Manifesting, are instead based on Intelligence.

ACFs

Changelog (Changelog Begun April 10th 2013)
Nerfed Enhanced Ability for infested/assimilated/embraced from 1 per point to 1 per two points.
11/4/13: Whoops, yesterday's nerf should have hit swarmlords too.
12/4/13: Clarified that Alternate Type is given for free for your original type-and, therefore, humanoids do not get hit dice.
14/4/13: Couple of changes made to Martial Expertise, to make it work with initiating classes.

I think they need more evolution points, but I need to sleep now and I wanted this out there. :smallsmile:
I need to add the hive mind sidebar, and to modify the example swarmlings. I'll get to it!
Still need to fix the old examples. xD

The-Mage-King
2012-08-18, 09:48 PM
Kekekekekekekekekekekekekekekeke


Ahem.



Shouldn't the Swarmling only have 5 Hp? It isn't a character, but a monster, and they all have average Hp....


Typically, on a slot with nothing in it in spellcasting progression, there's either a "-" or a "—". I prefer the latter. :smalltongue:


Writing up more as I read through it, but those two were glaring things I thought I should mention.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-18, 09:53 PM
Kekekekekekekekekekekekekekekeke

Ahem.

Shouldn't the Swarmling only have 5 Hp? It isn't a character, but a monster, and they all have average Hp....

Typically, on a slot with nothing in it in spellcasting progression, there's either a "-" or a "—". I prefer the latter. :smalltongue:

Writing up more as I read through it, but those two were glaring things I thought I should mention.
...possibly. I was intending to give it maximised first hit die, but I forgot to do that on any example swarmlings. Since it's a companion, I think I may go with the former.

Fair. xD

D_Lord
2012-08-19, 12:13 AM
This looks like it could be very fun, not sure how many GM's would let you run it although. If one is careful it looks like one could get a huge force on their side.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-19, 10:35 AM
One can get a truly MASSIVE force! However, you'll only get mooks, since the Infested don't scale at all. They stay at the power they were when you got them. You could use them to take over a country, but in an appropriate CR rating encounter they should melt unless you infested them yesterday. :smallbiggrin:

Volthawk
2012-08-19, 10:42 AM
Ooh, shiny.

Couple of things I noticed:

1) Ironscales says it gives the swarmlord 'Resist', without saying what it resists.
2) What list do you pick your powers off? Do they have access to every power around? Considering that even pure manifesters don't get that kind of freedom, seems kinda...off. Especially considering it gets more power points and higher level powers than Psychic Warriors, which in itself seems off.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-19, 10:51 AM
I should describe Resist when it first comes up. Whoops.

oops!
They use the psion/wilder list.
I have little to no respect for the psychic warrior, to be honest... it may be better than I think, but... ehh.

QuantumTsochar
2012-08-19, 03:32 PM
On deliberation, I can agree. If they want tankiness, they get armour and can Evolution for it.

Not sure about the manifesting, though. Possibly, I can lower it to seventh level. But making a limited list just seems... well, limiting. : /

Also your cho bit made me lol. xD

Gland I could get a laugh. On second thought, the manifesting isn't too bad for this class. As D_Lord mentioned above, no DM would let a player use this class if he knew that the guy would just spam 100 Zoanthropes with energy wall. If only responsible players would be allowed to play this class, then the player should also be trusted not to abuse the manifesting.

As a DM, I wouldn't worry too much about letting my responsible or knowledgeable players use this class. You could do as much damage with this class as a Dread Necromancer with 100 exploding skeleton rats or several Dread Warriors. Most of the obvious problems with this class are inherit problems with minionmancers and spellcasters. Now, there may be something else wrong with the class, but until I sit down and actually play it, I really can't see much else.

On a side note, why isn't there an evolution for exploding minions? Both the zerg and the tyranid had exploding units. I don't think a evolution for exploding would be too OP. In order to make a suicide squad, you would have to find several units with enough HD to get the evolution and wait a day after they fail their fort saves. A normal spellcaster could use a fell animate Kelgore's Grave Mist and get an army of exploding death rats in a turn.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-19, 04:44 PM
Gland I could get a laugh. On second thought, the manifesting isn't too bad for this class. As D_Lord mentioned above, no DM would let a player use this class if he knew that the guy would just spam 100 Zoanthropes with energy wall. If only responsible players would be allowed to play this class, then the player should also be trusted not to abuse the manifesting.

As a DM, I wouldn't worry too much about letting my responsible or knowledgeable players use this class. You could do as much damage with this class as a Dread Necromancer with 100 exploding skeleton rats or several Dread Warriors. Most of the obvious problems with this class are inherit problems with minionmancers and spellcasters. Now, there may be something else wrong with the class, but until I sit down and actually play it, I really can't see much else.

On a side note, why isn't there an evolution for exploding minions? Both the zerg and the tyranid had exploding units. I don't think a evolution for exploding would be too OP. In order to make a suicide squad, you would have to find several units with enough HD to get the evolution and wait a day after they fail their fort saves. A normal spellcaster could use a fell animate Kelgore's Grave Mist and get an army of exploding death rats in a turn.
Pretty much everything is abusable if you try too hard. DXD

Exploding minions is a cool idea! I'll throw it in.

Owrtho
2012-08-20, 03:19 PM
First, I thought I'd note that I like this class, and the idea behind it. While there are a few more things I might suggest, a few things that stuck out at me.

You forgot to close a bold tag on the feat.
When you have multiple swarmlings, you mention they share a pool, but not if they get evolutions applied to them separately or if they all have the same ones. Personally I think letting them have different builds would work better. There is an option to become bigger, but there doesn't seem to be one for being smaller. Given there are situations where that can be beneficial it may be worth adding.
An expensive option to provide the swarm subtype to swarmlings might be worth looking into.
Also, some of the evolutions look like they should have the option to take them more than once, if so that should likely be noted, otherwise for clarity there should be a note at the before the list that each option can only be taken once (even if some can be taken multiple times it should have that, just with a note saying unless otherwise noted).

Keep up the good work.

Owrtho

Mystic Muse
2012-08-20, 03:32 PM
Well, a couple things.

Its power level can't be over 9,000? Awww.:smallfrown:

It really needs some sort of capstone. Just having Evolution again is a little underwhelming. I highly doubt you want to just because of how many boosts it gives, but wouldn't the embraced template make sense? Or at least something somewhat like it.

EDIT: I believe according to the standard rules, an unconscious creature is considered willing. Do assimilation and such automatically succeed on unconscious creatures then?

DOUBLE EDIT: The things that increase size should explicitly say they don't give the standard ability boosts/penalties for increasing size.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-20, 04:57 PM
First, I thought I'd note that I like this class, and the idea behind it. While there are a few more things I might suggest, a few things that stuck out at me.
Thanks!


You forgot to close a bold tag on the feat.
Whoops.


When you have multiple swarmlings, you mention they share a pool, but not if they get evolutions applied to them separately or if they all have the same ones. Personally I think letting them have different builds would work better.
Seperately.


There is an option to become bigger, but there doesn't seem to be one for being smaller. Given there are situations where that can be beneficial it may be worth adding.
Good idea!


An expensive option to provide the swarm subtype to swarmlings might be worth looking into.
I am totally in agreement, but making it work with the others will be complicated.


Also, some of the evolutions look like they should have the option to take them more than once, if so that should likely be noted, otherwise for clarity there should be a note at the before the list that each option can only be taken once (even if some can be taken multiple times it should have that, just with a note saying unless otherwise noted).

Keep up the good work.

Owrtho
Good idea, and thank you.


Well, a couple things.

Its power level can't be over 9,000? Awww.:smallfrown:
How many power points would that even cost ._.


It really needs some sort of capstone. Just having Evolution again is a little underwhelming. I highly doubt you want to just because of how many boosts it gives, but wouldn't the embraced template make sense? Or at least something somewhat like it.
I totally agree it needs a capstone, but I really don't know what to use. Embraced is too strong, as said.


EDIT: I believe according to the standard rules, an unconscious creature is considered willing. Do assimilation and such automatically succeed on unconscious creatures then?
Ewww no. Will edit.


DOUBLE EDIT: The things that increase size should explicitly say they don't give the standard ability boosts/penalties for increasing size.
G'point.

Mystic Muse
2012-08-20, 05:12 PM
How many power points would that even cost ._.
No idea.



I totally agree it needs a capstone, but I really don't know what to use. Embraced is too strong, as said.

Hmm.

Well, not specifically a capstone, but being a swarm lord should make you immune to the assimilation, infestation, ETC. abilities of other swarm lords.

Maybe something that makes her immune to further mental influence? I would think if you were the queen of an entire army connected to your mind, part of that would be making sure your mind was unassailable.



Ewww no. Will edit. Glad I pointed it out then.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-20, 08:56 PM
No idea.
A power of level 9001 would cost 18001 xD


Hmm.

Well, not specifically a capstone, but being a swarm lord should make you immune to the assimilation, infestation, ETC. abilities of other swarm lords.
Point!


Maybe something that makes her immune to further mental influence? I would think if you were the queen of an entire army connected to your mind, part of that would be making sure your mind was unassailable.
Problem is that seems like a really early feature...

Mystic Muse
2012-08-20, 09:03 PM
Problem is that seems like a really early feature...

Immunity to all effects that affect your mind (That would be anything that requires a will save, and probably several things that don't give one) seems like a really late-game feature to me.

If you don't like that though, You could probably give her natural weapons a ton of abilities to make them more viable as weapons. As-is, they don't do much.

menelvagor
2012-08-21, 12:29 PM
What about a resurrection type thing as a capstone?
For instance, maybe if the swarmlord is killed then the swarmling could change itself into a cocoon out of which the swarmlord would hatch 1d4 weeks/months later.
I love immortality capstones :smallbiggrin:

Lix Lorn
2012-08-21, 01:10 PM
...hee. That makes sense. I'm doing a LOT of resurrection stuff recently.

Network
2012-08-21, 01:22 PM
This class is a very good concept. I rapidly went through the text ; I will add more comments when I'll have read it completely.

However, I suggest you make the Assimilated and Embraced templates as improved versions of the Infested template, with the possibility of losing its intellect (and thus not gaining all the abilities of the template). In-universe, non-compatibles hosts simply loose their intellect, regardless of the way used. Kerrigan was a very rare exception, being both compatible and psionic.

Hive Minds-I Am Me And We Are The Swarm
Yeah this doesn't exist yet. Watch this space.
I'd suggest an immunity to Mind-Affecting effects and the Hive Mind ability (similar to formians, but with overlords instead of queens).

Immunity to all effects that affect your mind (That would be anything that requires a will save, and probably several things that don't give one) seems like a really late-game feature to me.
An immunity to Mind-Affecting effects? A permanent Mind Blank?

Mystic Muse
2012-08-21, 01:34 PM
Permanent Mind blank is more what I meant, yes.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-21, 02:44 PM
This class is a very good concept. I rapidly went through the text ; I will add more comments when I'll have read it completely.
Thanks.


However, I suggest you make the Assimilated and Embraced templates as improved versions of the Infested template, with the possibility of losing its intellect (and thus not gaining all the abilities of the template). In-universe, non-compatibles hosts simply loose their intellect, regardless of the way used. Kerrigan was a very rare exception, being both compatible and psionic.
I'd rather not. If there was a chance of everything going pear shaped, that could lead to some REALLY bad moments. Imagine a character trying to Embrace a close friend, a lover, a family member. That just... ewww, no. >_<


I'd suggest an immunity to Mind-Affecting effects and the Hive Mind ability (similar to formians, but with overlords instead of queens).

An immunity to Mind-Affecting effects? A permanent Mind Blank?


Permanent Mind blank is more what I meant, yes.
I'm not really sure on that. Immunity to mind-affecting sooort, of fits, but it's a flat, defensive benefit that flat out blocks a lot of character concepts and plots, without really opening any new ones.

Mystic Muse
2012-08-21, 03:57 PM
I'm not really sure on that. Immunity to mind-affecting sooort, of fits, but it's a flat, defensive benefit that flat out blocks a lot of character concepts and plots, without really opening any new ones.

Just my own personal interpretation of how I view it. If you disagree, that's fine. I planned on making my own version at some point anyway.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-21, 04:09 PM
Now...
my original plan was for a set of Evolutions that could only be chosen at character level 20, giving a set of different capstones. Then I couldn't really think of any. Mind Blank would be a pretty good example.

Mystic Muse
2012-08-21, 04:47 PM
Now...
my original plan was for a set of Evolutions that could only be chosen at character level 20, giving a set of different capstones. Then I couldn't really think of any. Mind Blank would be a pretty good example.

That immortality thing could be another option.

Another thing could be that at that point you're essentially a terminator. You don't eat, you don't sleep, you don't breathe, you don't get tired, you don't feel fear, and you absolutely will not stop ever until your enemies are dead.

In terms of mechanics, you don't need to eat, breathe, or sleep, you'd be immune to fear effects, fatigue, and exhaustion, along with immunity to the effects of extreme temperatures, and you'd probably have a small amount of regeneration too.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-21, 04:48 PM
Both good ideas!

Network
2012-08-21, 06:34 PM
I read more of the abilities. Some comments to make :


Each feat bought costs one additional point, with the first feat costing two. Therefore, two points in this ability grants one feat, five points grants two, nine points grant three, fourteen points grant four, and twenty points grant five feats. The Swarmling must meet prerequisites.
I don't quite understand the math. Is this (number of feats) +1 points or another complicated formula? The text seem to say the former, but the example show the latter.

Ultralisk
Size/Type: Huge Magical Beast
[...]
Space/Reach: 30ft/15ft
The Space and Reach doesn't fit with the size. They should be 15 ft/10 ft.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-21, 08:03 PM
I read more of the abilities. Some comments to make :

I don't quite understand the math. Is this (number of feats) +1 points or another complicated formula? The text seem to say the former, but the example show the latter.
Complicated former.
The first feat costs two points. Each feat costs one more than the feat before.


The Space and Reach doesn't fit with the size. They should be 15 ft/10 ft.
I'm not good with space/reach. Thanks.

Network
2012-08-22, 12:12 PM
Complicated former.
The first feat costs two points. Each feat costs one more than the feat before.
Then you should clarify this. ''One bonus feat cost 2 points, and every feat after the first cost one more point than the former.''

menelvagor
2012-08-22, 01:22 PM
Now...
my original plan was for a set of Evolutions that could only be chosen at character level 20, giving a set of different capstones. Then I couldn't really think of any. Mind Blank would be a pretty good example.

I think that would be an excellent idea. Especially with the mind blank, immortality, and terminator options.

vasharanpaladin
2012-08-22, 04:08 PM
I feel the need to point out that I'm feeling a lot less Tyranid in this than the thread title implies. :smallbiggrin:

Lix Lorn
2012-08-22, 04:24 PM
I feel the need to point out that I'm feeling a lot less Tyranid in this than the thread title implies. :smallbiggrin:
I reckons you could make anything in the tyranid codex with the swarmling rules. :smalltongue:

Hellfire014
2012-08-22, 04:59 PM
I love the look of this class. But, there's something missing...

Swarming: Ratfolk are used to living and fighting communally, and are adept at swarming foes for their own gain and their foes' detriment. Up to two ratfolk can share the same square at the same time. If two ratfolk in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.
There it is! :smallbiggrin: Its not the Zerg if you don't have 16 zerglings for every marine. :smallbiggrin:


A Swarmlord has two natural attacks. These can be claws, stings, slams, tentacles, or any form of natural attack.

Attacks: The Infested has two natural attacks, generally of the same kind as the Swarmlord that created them.
Does this include ranged natural attacks, like from a Totemist's Manticore belt? (yay hydras)

Lix Lorn
2012-08-22, 05:20 PM
I love the look of this class. But, there's something missing...

There it is! :smallbiggrin: Its not the Zerg if you don't have 16 zerglings for every marine. :smallbiggrin:
That's what Infested are for!
Sadly, having a horde is both incredibly slowing for the game and reeeaaaally hard to balance.


Does this include ranged natural attacks, like from a Totemist's Manticore belt? (yay hydras)
Only if you pay for it. xD

C'nor
2012-08-22, 07:30 PM
Assimilating a Swarmlord also effectively renders any of their swarm part of your own swarm. However, a Swarmlord with the Assimilate ability is immune to the Assimilate ability, unless she chooses to be subject to it.




An Embraced may trade in one character level or HD for a level of Swarmlord instantly, but its Swarm is always considered part of the Swarm that created it.


So... What happens if an Embraced who becomes a Swarmlord Assimilates the Swarmlord who Embraced them?

Lix Lorn
2012-08-22, 08:05 PM
So... What happens if an Embraced who becomes a Swarmlord Assimilates the Swarmlord who Embraced them?
The universe implodes.
Also, you can't. Assimilate gives you immunity to Assimilate.

C'nor
2012-08-22, 08:26 PM
The universe implodes.
Also, you can't. Assimilate gives you immunity to Assimilate.

Unless one chooses to be subject to it, that is.

So, you become a Swarmlord, and, as you mentioned earlier, everything starts to go pear-shaped, so you Embrace your close friend/lover/family member.

Since they're still themselves, you still trust them, and allow them (once they're high enough level to have the ability) to Assimilate you, during which they automatically grant the will save (at least, I seem to remember that being possible).

Lix Lorn
2012-08-22, 09:56 PM
Huh. Well.

Can I stick with the explosion answer?

vasharanpaladin
2012-08-22, 10:01 PM
I reckons you could make anything in the tyranid codex with the swarmling rules. :smalltongue:

Except for the Swarmlord. :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2012-08-22, 10:09 PM
Except for the Swarmlord. :smalltongue:
That too, if you wanted, but the Embraced template on some giant monster would work easier. :smalltongue:

C'nor
2012-08-22, 10:20 PM
Huh. Well.

Can I stick with the explosion answer?

Since it's your race/class, I'd imagine so, yes. :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2012-08-22, 10:30 PM
Ehe. Well, It'd depend on the context.

C'nor
2012-08-22, 10:37 PM
Ehe. Well, It'd depend on the context.

What do you mean?

(Sorry if this come off badly. I just don't know if you're saying it depends on the circumstances it takes place under at the time, or what the players' intentions are, or something else entirely.)

Lix Lorn
2012-08-22, 10:39 PM
Both. xD
If a Swarmlord Assimilates a defeated rival who bought her into the world, she would become victorious.

If a Swarmlord Assimilates her progenitor because the con bonus would stop her from dying... well. :smallbiggrin:

C'nor
2012-08-22, 10:42 PM
Makes sense. :smallamused:

Presumably one could also end up with the two having equal control of the Swarm, should they have a sufficiently awesome plan?

Lix Lorn
2012-08-22, 10:47 PM
Indeed, but if they had an argument it'd snap one way or the other.

C'nor
2012-08-22, 11:26 PM
:evilgrin:

It sounds like it should work, then. Thanks for the clarification!

Network
2012-08-22, 11:46 PM
Didn't a certain Atticus Carpenter (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Atticus_Carpenter) took control of the cerebrate that infested him? :smallamused:

Taking control of the master swarm would be cool, at least.

''No, I didn't intend to control your swarm. Sorry, it is mine now.''

Mystic Muse
2012-08-22, 11:58 PM
The discussion appears to be taking a direction I'm uncomfortable with, so I'm out. See you around, Lix.

C'nor
2012-08-23, 12:08 AM
The discussion appears to be taking a direction I'm uncomfortable with, so I'm out. See you around, Lix.

If my questions had anything to do with that, my apologies; it certainly wasn't my intent to make anyone uncomfortable. :smallfrown:

Lix Lorn
2012-08-23, 09:16 AM
Didn't a certain Atticus Carpenter (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Atticus_Carpenter) took control of the cerebrate that infested him? :smallamused:

Taking control of the master swarm would be cool, at least.

''No, I didn't intend to control your swarm. Sorry, it is mine now.''
I wouldn't know, I was very young when I played the original game, and I really sucked at it.
I considered including ways to wrest control from other swarms, but... it seemed a rather vicious potential nerf.


The discussion appears to be taking a direction I'm uncomfortable with, so I'm out. See you around, Lix.
No probs. Thanks for hanging out so long.


If my questions had anything to do with that, my apologies; it certainly wasn't my intent to make anyone uncomfortable. :smallfrown:
She has a thing about mind control. I had to write the feat just for her to get her to look at the class. So don't feel bad?

Network
2012-08-23, 09:49 AM
I wouldn't know, I was very young when I played the original game, and I really sucked at it.
It isn't in the original game, but in an expansion pack, StarCraft : Insurrection (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft:_Insurrection). It was produced by Aztech New Media, but Blizzard made it canon.

C'nor
2012-08-23, 10:55 AM
I wouldn't know, I was very young when I played the original game, and I really sucked at it.
I considered including ways to wrest control from other swarms, but... it seemed a rather vicious potential nerf.

I'm not sure if there's already something in there about this (it's a rather large class with all of the evolutions, and I may have missed something), or if there would be reasons it would never come up (such as the Swarm dying on the Swarmlord's death) but a way to take control of a Swarm where the Swarmlord is dead or otherwise unable to control it might be a good compromise.

Perhaps something like this:

Rite of Succession
Prerequisites: At least four levels in Swarmlord, Distant Manifestation evolution.
Benefit: When within Hive Mind range of members of a Swarm whose Swarmlord is dead or otherwise unable to control their Swarm, the Swarmlord may cause them to make a will save, with the DC based on her Charisma. Infested make this save with no bonuses, while Assimilated and Embraced may apply modifiers as normal. Failure causes them to join her Swarm, while success means that they are unaffected.

Any Infected or Assimilated brought into the Swarm in this manner who have retained their free will must make a save as though they were being Infected or Assimilated again, with the same effects. The Swarmlord may act as though she has the Gentle Queen feat in such cases, irregardless of her actual possession of it. However, she cannot apply it retroactively, whether or not she has it; if they failed the save originally, or were unable to make it, they remain as they are.

She may also choose to turn over control of them to one of her Embraced, so long as they have at least one level of Swarmlord, in which case they will be added to or become the Embraced's Swarm, with effects as above.

Finally, she may choose one of her Embraced who began as or have chosen to become Swarmlords in their own right as a successor, in which case they will automatically assume control of her Swarm on her death or incapacitation.
?



She has a thing about mind control. I had to write the feat just for her to get her to look at the class. So don't feel bad?

Ah, okay. Good to know it wasn't entirely me.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-23, 12:02 PM
I'm not sure if there's already something in there about this (it's a rather large class with all of the evolutions, and I may have missed something), or if there would be reasons it would never come up (such as the Swarm dying on the Swarmlord's death) but a way to take control of a Swarm where the Swarmlord is dead or otherwise unable to control it might be a good compromise.

Perhaps something like this:

Rite of Succession
Prerequisites: At least four levels in Swarmlord, Distant Manifestation evolution.
Benefit: When within Hive Mind range of members of a Swarm whose Swarmlord is dead or otherwise unable to control their Swarm, the Swarmlord may cause them to make a will save, with the DC based on her Charisma. Infested make this save with no bonuses, while Assimilated and Embraced may apply modifiers as normal. Failure causes them to join her Swarm, while success means that they are unaffected.

Any Infected or Assimilated brought into the Swarm in this manner who have retained their free will must make a save as though they were being Infected or Assimilated again, with the same effects. The Swarmlord may act as though she has the Gentle Queen feat in such cases, irregardless of her actual possession of it. However, she cannot apply it retroactively, whether or not she has it; if they failed the save originally, or were unable to make it, they remain as they are.

She may also choose to turn over control of them to one of her Embraced, so long as they have at least one level of Swarmlord, in which case they will be added to or become the Embraced's Swarm, with effects as above.

Finally, she may choose one of her Embraced who began as or have chosen to become Swarmlords in their own right as a successor, in which case they will automatically assume control of her Swarm on her death or incapacitation.
Oooh, that's an excellent idea. Do you think it works better as a feat, or as an evolution?

C'nor
2012-08-23, 12:10 PM
Oooh, that's an excellent idea. Do you think it works better as a feat, or as an evolution?

Thanks! And an evolution might be more thematically appropriate, but it prevents one from taking it quite as early (the soonest would be level six, instead of being able to take it at level four if you choose Distant Manifestation as your first Evolution (assuming the feats work for that, which I don't have time to check now), so I'm not sure, nor do I really have time to think more about it at the moment, since I have to run now.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-23, 12:54 PM
Well, you don't actually get a feat between level 4 and 6, so you'd have to take it at 6 anyway xD

Network
2012-08-23, 03:31 PM
I return with more comments. After reading the abilities, I found a couple of weird mechanics and game-breaking abilities. Here are a compilation of those I found :
Infested Template
[...]
Int 2, Wis 8, Cha 10. These mental ability scores are fixed mental traits, and are not gained by Infested that pass their will save on creation. As clarification, these new ability scores represent the fact that the original self is effectively dead. Resurrection magic treats it as if their body was completely destroyed. (if the Infested body is slain, it can be used for resurrection again.)
This can, potentially, increase the mental ability scores. Since it's probably not intended, you may add ''These mental ability scores are a cap ; if the base creature has lower ability scores, they doesn't increase''.

Evolutions-specific comments :
Infestation Queen
Taking this ability enhances the numberless minions of the swarm. All Infested creatures possessed by her swarm at the time she takes this ability gain an additional HD. This ability may be taken more than once.
As written, this doesn't affect the HD of creatures gained after the ability is selected. You also forgot to mention what kind of HD (Magical beast? Aberration?), not mentioning it improves non-mindless servants, which is something the DM and/or other PC may not like.

Lord Above
This ability greatly increases the size of the Swarmlord. She increases by one size category, [...].

Taking this ability gives each Swarmling she possesses up to two free points in the Size Increase evolution, which don’t count towards their cap.
Overpowered ; this is one of the few evolutions that greatly improve the swarmlord, and it also increase her minions.

Ironscales
She gains [...] Resist equal to half [her Con. modifier].
Resist functions as a combination of Damage Resistance and Energy Resistance. [...]Same problem. If you removed Resist, the Ironscale evolution would (probably) be balanced.


Sky Swarm
This ability grants a Swarmlord great wings, or some other means of aerial propulsion. She gains a flight speed of 30ft (Average), +10ft for each five levels she possesses, and increasing in manoeuvrability by one stage for each ten levels she possesses. [...]
I'm not sure why it evolve with level. An ability that increase by level must be intended for use in an indefinitely high level of play. After an indefinite amount of time, an epic swarmlord can exceed the speed of light. Also, there is no manoeuvrability after ''perfect''. You don't have to be high-epic to have a better manoeuvrability than perfect. Sky Swarm is one of the few evolution that improves with level (there should be none).


Weapons of the Queen
This ability grants vastly improved weapons to the Queen. She may gain an additional natural weapon for each five levels she possesses, and she may grant an enhancement bonus to each of her weapons equal to a third of her class level. Points of enhancement bonus may be traded for special abilities, and the enhancement bonus may not surpass 5.

Taking this ability gives each Swarmling she possesses up to two free points in the Additional/Enhanced Natural Weapon evolution, which don’t count towards their cap.Then again, same problem. No evolution should improve with level. Especially not something that grant more attacks. I mean, a 200th level swarmlord has 42 natural weapons? For a single evolution?

About the swarmling : what is the formula for evolution points? At some levels, the swarmling gains 3, at others it gains 13, with apparently no real formula.


Mind Over Matter
For five points, the Swarmling suffers -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, but gains +7 Int, +2 Wis.
Why is it +7 Int? Why not +6 or +8?

This will be my last comment for today ; I'm going to read the enhancements. May I suggest one that grant a permanent Detect Psionics effect?

The_Final_Stand
2012-08-23, 04:19 PM
Maths Correction: There is an iterative formula to determine the number of EP a Swarmling gets at a certain level. Someone better at maths and/or not sleepy could probably simplify it.

F(N) = F(N-1) + 2(Ceiling{[N-2]/2}) + 1
F(0) = 5
Where Ceiling(X) means "Round X in the positive direction" and the fancy brackets are to make reading easier.

Or, in English, at hypothetical level 0 (Iterative formulas always start at 0. If you want, imagine F(1) = 6 instead), you have 5 EP. At each odd level, gain that level in EP. At each even level, gain that number of EP - 1.

Oh, and incidentally, Lix, the unholy 3.5m psychic snake thing that is the Zoanthrope is not what I would describe as "Small".:smallwink:

And now I have in my head a theoretical "Norm Queen" Epic Prestige class that controls massive organisms and massive swarms at the expense of personal combat/psychic might and oh gods I'm thinking this in depth about homebrew for a game I don't even play and an army I don't play either.

Volthawk
2012-08-23, 04:28 PM
Then again, same problem. No evolution should improve with level. Especially not something that grant more attacks. I mean, a 200th level swarmlord has 42 natural weapons? For a single evolution?


You play at level 200? :smalleek: At that point, 42 natural weapons are the least of your worries. The game breaks down a long, long time before that.

Network
2012-08-23, 04:50 PM
You play at level 200? :smalleek: At that point, 42 natural weapons are the least of your worries. The game breaks down a long, long time before that.

What, you never did? :smallconfused:

There are two classes that can hypothetically do the same thing. Although the DM may put a limit in the number of attacks without cancelling the class all together (namely, the evolutionist and ozodrin).

C'nor
2012-08-23, 05:43 PM
Well, you don't actually get a feat between level 4 and 6, so you'd have to take it at 6 anyway xD

Then probably it would be best as an Evolution, since it seems to fit the theme better.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-23, 05:44 PM
I return with more comments. After reading the abilities, I found a couple of weird mechanics and game-breaking abilities. Here are a compilation of those I found :
This can, potentially, increase the mental ability scores. Since it's probably not intended, you may add ''These mental ability scores are a cap ; if the base creature has lower ability scores, they doesn't increase''.
While it's odd, it's intended. They should have those specific scores. It's not their mind anymore.


Evolutions-specific comments :
As written, this doesn't affect the HD of creatures gained after the ability is selected. You also forgot to mention what kind of HD (Magical beast? Aberration?), not mentioning it improves non-mindless servants, which is something the DM and/or other PC may not like.
Intentional. If it boosts future ones, you can infest something of your level and make it stronger.
It adds HD that you already have.


Overpowered ; this is one of the few evolutions that greatly improve the swarmlord, and it also increase her minions.
Same problem. If you removed Resist, the Ironscale evolution would (probably) be balanced.
I disagree. It's not a combative class as is. And the size will make you easier to hit.


I'm not sure why it evolve with level. An ability that increase by level must be intended for use in an indefinitely high level of play. After an indefinite amount of time, an epic swarmlord can exceed the speed of light. Also, there is no manoeuvrability after ''perfect''. You don't have to be high-epic to have a better manoeuvrability than perfect. Sky Swarm is one of the few evolution that improves with level (there should be none).
There SHOULD be? I disagree. Any ability that isn't an instantaneous, unscalable boost should scale.


Then again, same problem. No evolution should improve with level. Especially not something that grant more attacks. I mean, a 200th level swarmlord has 42 natural weapons? For a single evolution?
I am not balancing for level 200.


About the swarmling : what is the formula for evolution points? At some levels, the swarmling gains 3, at others it gains 13, with apparently no real formula.
Complicated, since I kept changing it. They gain 1 at level 2, 3 at 3, 3 at 4, 5 at 5, and each second level, the gain increases by two. This is by no means final.


Why is it +7 Int? Why not +6 or +8?
Whoops.
it WAS 7 because they had Int 3, to give them a round ten. Since I realised they needed Int 2, that should have gone up.


This will be my last comment for today ; I'm going to read the enhancements. May I suggest one that grant a permanent Detect Psionics effect?
Ooh, might work.


Maths Correction: There is an iterative formula to determine the number of EP a Swarmling gets at a certain level. Someone better at maths and/or not sleepy could probably simplify it.

F(N) = F(N-1) + 2(Ceiling{[N-2]/2}) + 1
F(0) = 5
Where Ceiling(X) means "Round X in the positive direction" and the fancy brackets are to make reading easier.

Or, in English, at hypothetical level 0 (Iterative formulas always start at 0. If you want, imagine F(1) = 6 instead), you have 5 EP. At each odd level, gain that level in EP. At each even level, gain that number of EP - 1.

Oh, and incidentally, Lix, the unholy 3.5m psychic snake thing that is the Zoanthrope is not what I would describe as "Small".:smallwink:

And now I have in my head a theoretical "Norm Queen" Epic Prestige class that controls massive organisms and massive swarms at the expense of personal combat/psychic might and oh gods I'm thinking this in depth about homebrew for a game I don't even play and an army I don't play either.
...why is it not just going up by one every level...

True, but they gain nothing and lose quite a bit from being Medium or larger. :P

See, the problem is that if I give their minions enough power and enough numbers to do a proper swarm, they'll annoy the rest of the party (and be incredibly OP)
Just assume tyranids and zerg are both led by ridonkulously epic Swarmlords. :P
Speaking of, I need to create a 'Spawn' evolution.

Owrtho
2012-08-24, 01:38 AM
Complicated, since I kept changing it. They gain 1 at level 2, 3 at 3, 3 at 4, 5 at 5, and each second level, the gain increases by two. This is by no means final.


...why is it not just going up by one every level...


Well, that would result in it having 10 more ep at level 20.

On Infestation Queen, perhaps let it apply to future spawn, but note it can't increase the HD of a swarm beyond what the highest HD you can infest, assimilate, etc. is. If it would do so, it instead waits until that would not exceed your cap.

On Pinnacle Swarm, I'd suggest the possibility of having it taken more than once, but not allow selecting the same evolution more than once.

On This Land is Mine, I'd suggest changing the wording of "which will infest everything around it for 20ft/class level within an hour/class level" to "which will infest everything within a radius of 20ft/class level at a rate of the radius increasing by 20ft/hour."

A possible thought, is the option to form mobs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179) with your minions to reduce things slowing down too much (the link is to a revised version of the template in the DMGII, though there are likely other versions or methods).

Size Change should note that you can't use both the size increase and size decrease on the same creature (since it would just result in +2 Str and +2 Dex for 3 points, making it better than the 8 points that would be needed if you were using Enhanced Ability).

Also, perhaps an either an evolution or some just some options for evolution points that allow minions to be enhanced even further when on infested land (either specific options, or something more general such as being able to spend 1 less point, minimum one, on abilities, but they only grant the benefits while on infested land).

Owrtho

Lix Lorn
2012-08-24, 01:53 PM
Well, that would result in it having 10 more ep at level 20.
I can cope with that.


On Infestation Queen, perhaps let it apply to future spawn, but note it can't increase the HD of a swarm beyond what the highest HD you can infest, assimilate, etc. is. If it would do so, it instead waits until that would not exceed your cap.
Hmmmm. That could work.


On Pinnacle Swarm, I'd suggest the possibility of having it taken more than once, but not allow selecting the same evolution more than once.
Ooh, good point.


On This Land is Mine, I'd suggest changing the wording of "which will infest everything around it for 20ft/class level within an hour/class level" to "which will infest everything within a radius of 20ft/class level at a rate of the radius increasing by 20ft/hour."
My mistake!


A possible thought, is the option to form mobs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179) with your minions to reduce things slowing down too much (the link is to a revised version of the template in the DMGII, though there are likely other versions or methods).
Ew.
It's possible that there's a better version, but I think I disagree with the purpose itself. A high level character SHOULD slaughter masses of minions. That's how heroic stories work.


Size Change should note that you can't use both the size increase and size decrease on the same creature (since it would just result in +2 Str and +2 Dex for 3 points, making it better than the 8 points that would be needed if you were using Enhanced Ability).
Whoops. Good idea.


Also, perhaps an either an evolution or some just some options for evolution points that allow minions to be enhanced even further when on infested land (either specific options, or something more general such as being able to spend 1 less point, minimum one, on abilities, but they only grant the benefits while on infested land).
Oh wow. I meant to put that in. In fact, I know an easy way to do that.

Network
2012-08-24, 03:24 PM
There SHOULD be? I disagree. Any ability that isn't an instantaneous, unscalable boost should scale.
Then we can come with a compromise. Why not allow to take Sky Swarm more than once? My first suggestion would be to increase flight speed by 20 feet and manoeuvrability by one point every time after the first, with a maximum manoeuvrability of perfect (you could also put this manoeuvrability limit with Movement (flight)). In this case, the ability would no longer be scalable.

I am not balancing for level 200.
If you don't want the class to go into epic, I'd ask you why you made something so awesome in the first place? :smalleek:
I disagree. It's not a combative class as is. And the size will make you easier to hit.
You may think it's not a combative class, but it has d8 hit dices, a 3/4 BAB progression, and the Blades of the Queen class feature, along with the swarmling (that can be made into a brawler) and the Lord Above, Ironscales and Weapons of the Queen evolutions. As it is, it is a combative class. With psionic powers and countless minions.
Hive Node
Three points in this ability allow the Swarmling to function as if within Hive Mind range at all times. More points than this allow the Swarmling to control other members of the swarm as if it were a Swarmlord of class level equal to the number of points in this ability minus three.
Do you realise that this ability is... weird when used with Pinnacle Swarm? This allow the swarmling to control the swarm as if it has one more level than its master swarmlord.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-24, 03:46 PM
Then we can come with a compromise. Why not allow to take Sky Swarm more than once? My first suggestion would be to increase flight speed by 20 feet and manoeuvrability by one point every time after the first, with a maximum manoeuvrability of perfect (you could also put this manoeuvrability limit with Movement (flight)). In this case, the ability would no longer be scalable.
...that's not really a compromise.
I want it to scale.


If you don't want the class to go into epic, I'd ask you why you made something so awesome in the first place? :smalleek:
At level 200, you're not playing d&d anymore. If you can play that without it being rocket tag, you are freeform RPing with a handful of dice for flavour.


You may think it's not a combative class, but it has d8 hit dices, a 3/4 BAB progression, and the Blades of the Queen class feature, along with the swarmling (that can be made into a brawler) and the Lord Above, Ironscales and Weapons of the Queen evolutions. As it is, it is a combative class. With psionic powers and countless minions.
d8 hit dice, 3/4 BAB, and weapons. Before evolutions, she's strictly and majorly worse than a fighter. I don't think being one size larger is that major a boost.


Do you realise that this ability is... weird when used with Pinnacle Swarm? This allow the swarmling to control the swarm as if it has one more level than its master swarmlord.
Lol, that is weird. I like the idea of a very combative swarmlord who leaves the actual swarm control to her minions though.

Owrtho
2012-08-24, 05:15 PM
Ew.
It's possible that there's a better version, but I think I disagree with the purpose itself. A high level character SHOULD slaughter masses of minions. That's how heroic stories work.

Well, the purpose was to allow the player to more easily manage all their minions without it slowing the game too much, not to make them overwhelm high level enemies more than they would played normally. As mentioned, one of the main problems with minion master type characters is all the minion bog down gameplay. Being able to combine large numbers into what is effectively one creature with the power of all of them makes that easier to deal with.

Owrtho

Lix Lorn
2012-08-24, 06:16 PM
Ahhhh. That's a fair point, but I'm basically assuming that infested will not be kept with the party, simply because they'll die to 'most anything AoE.

Also that particular writeup makes me curl up in a ball and cry.

Drynwyn
2012-08-24, 07:36 PM
Nice.
Just something I thought: If you wanted, you could alter the fluff on this to play it as a psionic Necromancer.
But really, why play that when you can SPAWN MOAR OVERLORDS!
Which is all I think of when I read embrace.

An Extra Evolution feat might be in order, to provide more things to do with your feats than just psionic stuff.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-24, 07:49 PM
Might be a good idea. Not sure. Some of the evolutions are stronger than feats. xD

Network
2012-08-26, 10:49 AM
...that's not really a compromise.
I want it to scale.
Then I'd suggest the following modifications :

Lord Above
This ability greatly increases the size of the Swarmlord. She increases by one size category, gaining +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex and the standard size based changes to attack and skill rolls. These ability scores are instead of the usual changes to ability scores.
This is better than the Size Change swarmling evolution. I'd suggest to make the benefits the same than 3 points in Size Change. This would also allow you a Size Reducted swarm.
Sky Swarm
This ability grants a Swarmlord great wings, or some other means of aerial propulsion. She gains a flight speed of 30ft (Average), +10ft for each five levels she possesses, and increasing in manoeuvrability by one stage for each ten levels she possesses.
Suggested rewording (the benefit for the swarm doesn't change) :
Sky Swarm
This ability grants a Swarmlord great wings, or some other means of aerial propulsion. She gains a flight speed which depends of her swarmlord level :
Level | Flight speed | Manoeuvrability
4-9 | 30 ft. | Average
10-14 | 40 ft. | Good
15-19 | 50 ft. | Good
20 | 60 ft. | Perfect
The flight speed and manoeuvrability doesn't increase after the 20th level.

Weapons of the Queen
This ability grants vastly improved weapons to the Queen. She may gain an additional natural weapon for each five levels she possesses, and she may grant an enhancement bonus to each of her weapons equal to a third of her class level. Points of enhancement bonus may be traded for special abilities, and the enhancement bonus may not surpass 5.

Taking this ability gives each Swarmling she possesses up to two free points in the Additional/Enhanced Natural Weapon evolution, which don’t count towards their cap.
Suggested rewording (then again, swarm's benefit doesn't change) :
Weapons of the Queen
This ability grants vastly improved weapons to the Queen. She gains an effective enhancement bonus to her natural weapons equal to one third of her level (rounded down). This bonus can be spend on weapon properties, but the real enhancement bonus can't exceed +5. She also gain more natural weapons, as with the Blade of the Queen class feature, according to her level :
Level | Additional natural weapons
4-9 | 1
10-14 | 2
15-19 | 3
20 | 4
She doesn't gain more natural weapons after the 20th level.

About swarmling evolutions, I noted an apparent flaw in Size Change : due to the wording, the +1 to natural armor seem to stack with the increase in size. Is this intentional?


While it's odd, it's intended. They should have those specific scores. It's not their mind anymore.
Then why 10 Cha? How does the act of being a member of the swarm increase by +9 the Charisma of a zombie?

Lix Lorn
2012-08-26, 04:07 PM
Then I'd suggest the following modifications :

This is better than the Size Change swarmling evolution. I'd suggest to make the benefits the same than 3 points in Size Change. This would also allow you a Size Reducted swarm.
Suggested rewording (the benefit for the swarm doesn't change) :
Sky Swarm
This ability grants a Swarmlord great wings, or some other means of aerial propulsion. She gains a flight speed which depends of her swarmlord level :
Level | Flight speed | Manoeuvrability
4-9 | 30 ft. | Average
10-14 | 40 ft. | Good
15-19 | 50 ft. | Good
20 | 60 ft. | Perfect
The flight speed and manoeuvrability doesn't increase after the 20th level.

Suggested rewording (then again, swarm's benefit doesn't change) :
Weapons of the Queen
This ability grants vastly improved weapons to the Queen. She gains an effective enhancement bonus to her natural weapons equal to one third of her level (rounded down). This bonus can be spend on weapon properties, but the real enhancement bonus can't exceed +5. She also gain more natural weapons, as with the Blade of the Queen class feature, according to her level :
Level | Additional natural weapons
4-9 | 1
10-14 | 2
15-19 | 3
20 | 4
She doesn't gain more natural weapons after the 20th level.

About swarmling evolutions, I noted an apparent flaw in Size Change : due to the wording, the +1 to natural armor seem to stack with the increase in size. Is this intentional?
You're coming at this at cross purposes from me. I want things to scale, I want them to keep doing so post 20th level, and Swarmlord Evolutions are meant to be better than the Swarmling's equivalents.


Then why 10 Cha? How does the act of being a member of the swarm increase by +9 the Charisma of a zombie?
Valid question!
It's no longer a shambling abomination that exists only to feed on brains. It is still ugly and rotting, but it's not really a zombie anymore.

Hellwyrm
2012-08-28, 10:02 PM
Thoughts:
I really like the idea behind this class, and the execution of many of the concepts. The evolution abilities are also generally clever.
After taking this and making some swarmlings, which after all are some of the coolest stuff this class gets, I did find that the wording of several of the EP costs meant that there meaning was confusing. Thoughts on each of the abilities is as follows:


At second level, and each subsequent even level, the Swarmling gains an additional Magical Beast HD, and the concurrent increases to saves, base attack bonus, feat progression, skills (if they have the necessary Int), and bonus ability point at each fourth level.

Where marked in the table, the Swarmling increases his Natural Armor by the amount shown.

At second level, and each third level thereafter, the Swarmling may increase any of his ability scores by one. This is in addition to the increase gained at each fourth hit die.

This ability seems good.


Additional/Enhanced Natural Weapon
A single point in this ability grants one additional natural weapon. Each additional weapon costs one point more than the previous. (Therefore, two additional weapons cost 1+2=3 points.)
These weapons are secondary natural weapons. For an additional two points spent on a single weapon, it may be considered primary.

This part of the ability is useful, and adds decent power to the swarmlings.


Points can also be spent to enhance the weapons in one of many ways. Firstly, weapon abilities or enhancements may be added. An effective enhancement bonus costs one point for a +1 bonus, two points for a +2, and each increase of one beyond that costs one more point than the previous. (1 for +1, 2 for +2, 4 for +3, 7 for +4). These points may be exchanged for special weapon abilities. The flat bonus may not surpass five until the Swarmlord reaches twenty-first level.

This ability seems to add a reasonable amount of power to the swarmlings.


Two points put to the purpose increases the damage of one natural weapon as if by a size increase. Each additional increase costs one more point. This is calculated and limited per weapon.

Ahh. This as written means that to increase a swarmlings weapons size once costs 2 points, twice is 3 points, three times is 4 points etc. If your going to use an increasing cost you might want to put an example in so that it is clear that one size increase is 2 points, two size increases to weapons is 3 points. INVALIDATED BY SIZE INCREASE


Each third point can increase the weapon’s range. Three points give it a 10ft range, and each third extra point doubles its range.

This ability looks to me like it is needlessly expensive for range. You should continue your trend of making increasing benefits increasingly expensive, but start out alot cheaper. 3 points for 10ft of range isn't that great at all. INVALIDATED POISION


One point allows a weapon to function as nonlethal without penalty. Two convert a weapon’s damage to one of the four basic energy types. (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire). Four can convert a weapon to a more esoteric energy type such as Sonic or Desiccation, and eight allow a damage type such as Force with innate abilities.

This seems situational, but reasonably priced. However if you can't change swarmlings on the fly, and you don't have any prior knowledge of encounters, then unless the swarmlord is trying to be a nice queen and makes the swarmlings non-lethal, then I see no reason to take this ability.


Three points increase a weapon’s base critical threat range OR critical damage range by one. (to 19-20 or x3). Ten points increase both.

This seems extremely expensive for a negligible increase.


Armoured Hide
Each point in this ability adds one to the Swarmling’s Natural Armour. In addition, each fourth point gives it a point of Resist.
Resist is described under the Ironscales Swarmlord Evolution. It resists all damage except that which explicitly penetrates resistances of all kind.

In my opinion, this is the best balanced of all the swarmling abilities, especially since it scales linearly, which is nice.


Bonus Feats
The first feat costs two points, and each feat beyond one costs one more point than the last did. Therefore, two points in this ability grants one feat, five points grants two, nine points grant three, fourteen points grant four, and twenty points grant five feats. The Swarmling must meet prerequisites.

Since the swarmling must meet the prerequisites of the feats taken, I see no reason why this shouldn't scale linearly. This makes this ability overly expensive.


Bonus Hit Die
Each second point put in this ability grants an additional HD

A great ability useful to almost every type of swarmling.


Enhanced Ability
For each second point spent on this ability, the Swarmling adds one as an inherent bonus to any one ability score, stacking with all others.

This ability seems way to expensive. It should be one point for one ability increase.


Final Ending
For at least five points, this ability grants the Swarmling an explosive end. When killed, they explode, dealing either fire or acid* damage to each creature within 5ft/HD. This damage is equal to 1d6 for each second point put into this ability.
Infested with this ability can be manually destroyed by the Swarmlord, using a standard action. They are immediately reduced to -10hp, and explode. Obviously, only Hive Mind infested can be destroyed this way.
Other damage types could also work. Maybe physical damage types are 1d8, rare types 1d4.

Seems like a fun ability. A horde of exploding infested dire rats.


Hive Node
Three points in this ability allow the Swarmling to function as if within Hive Mind range at all times. More points than this allow the Swarmling to control other members of the swarm as if it were a Swarmlord of class level equal to the number of points in this ability minus three.

Pray tell what benefit does being controlled by a Swarmlord grant swarmlings? I mean they are controlled, but unless I've misread something drastically the EP is keyed of the Swarmlord who created the swarmlings at the time of their creation. However this ability is good, creating a functional lieutenant. Becuase the swarmling counts as if within Hive Mind range at all times, can the Swarmlord who created this Swarmling always send the Swarmling orders?


Martial Expertise
Each second point in this ability grants a maneuver known. The second point and each third thereafter grants a maneuver readied.
Each sixth point grants a stance.
The Swarmling has an initiator level equal to half the points put into this ability. It uses Wisdom as its mental ability score for Initiation.
A Swarmling without this ability does not count its HD towards initiator level.

I'm not sure what to say for this one. At the same time as I want to say make it cheaper so your swarmlings can get better abilities, as you only ever get 4, at the same time that would make them to powerful.... I think this is great as is though. Good addition.
As an extension to this, would adding the ability for swarmlings to invest essentia and bind soulmelds through a similar function be a good idea?


Mind Over Matter
For five points, the Swarmling suffers -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, but gains +8 Int, +2 Wis.

No problems here.


Movement
Each second point in this ability may enhance the Swarmling’s base land speed by 10ft.
Alternatively, two points give the Swarmling a burrow, climb or swim speed of 30ft. Each second point after these two increase the Swarmling’s speed in that movement by ten.
A Swarmling with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. The same applies to a Swarmling with a swim speed in relation to Swim checks.
Alternatively, five points grant a fly speed of 30ft (Average). Each three points after the five increase this speed by 15ft and increase maneuverability by one stage.

Yep, this ability seems great. Technically, if you infest something with a burrow speed, and then make them a swarmling, you have to give them another burrow speed in order to enhance it. Would an idea be "For every 2evolution points invested in this ability, a swarmling may increase an existing movement speed by 10ft.
For 3 points a swarmling may gain a climb, burrow or swim speed of 30ft. These may be enhanced as normal through this ability.
For 5 points a swarmling may gain a fly speed of 30ft, maneuverability of Average.
For every 4 points invested in increasing the fly movement speed, the maneuverability of the fly speed is increased by one category, up to a maximum of perfect"?


Preternatural Skill
Two points in this ability allows the Swarmling to choose a single skill. That skill becomes a class skill permanently.
I really, really recommend using retroactive skill points for Swarmlings, even if you don’t use it for anyone/thing else. I’m also leery about letting someone take this repeatedly, but… what’s the worst that can happen?

Great, balanced, no problem here.


Size Change
Each third point put into this ability causes the Swamling to increase or decrease in size. An increase grants +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, and an additional point of natural armour. A decrease grants -2 Con, and +4 Dex. These replace the usual ability score changes from changing size, but other size bonuses change to fit the new size.

This is probably the most troubling ability. Not because it itself is overpowered or anything, I rather like it and think is is a good investment. However this constant point cost of 3 means that other abilities such as increasing the size of your natural weapons, which has an increasing cost per size increase, are invalidated because this ability both increases your weapon size, but also grants ability score increase. This ability is also far better than the inherent ability increases for your ability scores, because for only 3 points you can increase both Str and Con by 2. I would make increasing the size of your weapons cheaper, and also increasing your abilities cheaper so that more abilities are viable.


Special Attacks/Qualities
A Swarmling can spend points to gain special abilities. Each one is considered a separate ability for purpose of the (level) cap of evolution points.
Alternate Form-5+ points, grants a single humanoid form with CR no greater than half the points spent. May be taken additional times for additional forms. Even in humanoid form, they look unnatural, but still appear odd.
Breath Weapon-5 points grant a breath weapon dealing 3d6 damage, of a single basic energy or physical damage type. Each two additional points increases this damage by one dice. The reflex save DC is constitution based, and the weapon may be used once every 1d4 rounds.
Constrict-4 points grant a constrict attack for 1d6+1.5Str, and the damage increased by 1d6 for each three extra points spent.
Darkvision-Two points grant the Low Light Vision ability. Four points instead grant Darkvision.
Energy Drain-Eight points grant the ability to, once per encounter, deal 1d4 negative levels with a melee touch attack. Each additional three points allow it to be used an additional time per encounter. For a full twenty points, it is applied on every successful melee attack. The save DC is charisma based.
Evasion-Four points grant the Evasion ability. For ten points, this is increased to Improved Evasion.
Fast Healing-Each three points put into this ability grant Fast Healing 1. An additional two points grant the limb-regenerative ability of Regeneration.
Frightful Presence-Six points grant the Frightful Presence ability. The save DC is Charisma based.
Improved Grab-3 points for each compatible weapon
Lightning Charge-For four points, the Swarmling triples their speed when making charges.
Mettle-Five points grant the Mettle ability. For eleven points, this is increased to Improved Mettle.
Paralysis-Nine points grants the Swarmling a paralytic ability. This requires a successful melee touch attack, and grants the victim a fortitude save vs the effect. The save DC is Wisdom based.
Poison-Four points grants a poison. This is either a contact poison doing 1d6 ability damage, or an injury poison dealing 2d4. Contact poisons are delivered as touch attacks. (Usually melee, but ranged for 1 point (10ft), +2 points doubles range each time). Injury poisons are delivered in addition to another attack, and take effect if it deals at least one point of damage.
Five points increases the damage by 1d6/2d4. Each additional increase costs one more than the last.
Pounce-Six points grants the Pounce special ability.
Scent-Three points grants the Scent special ability.
Swallow Whole-Six points, required Improved Grab applied to a bite attack.
Trample-Costs five points, and works on any size creature, dealing damage equal to 1d4 for a small creature, increasing by size. Save DC is Str based.
If it’s covered in spikes, it can be half your size, you still don’t want it running over you.

While these abilities are cool, most of them are so expensive that they aren't going to get much use till later in the game, or just at all.
Alter Form - Good ability, should be cheaper and just transform using a disguise self like effect into some humanoid.
Breath Weapon - Decent, well priced and interesting. Would other types of breath weapon for additional points be a good idea?
Constrict - Good ability, but the extension to the price seems too great. 3 points for only 1d6 damage? Maybe increasing the strength modifier as well would be a good idea.
Darkvision - 4 points for darkvision seems extremely pricey. I think 2 would be much more reasonable.
Energy Drain - This is a great idea, especially the once per encounter limit, and well priced.
Evasion - Useful, but like mettle below this is slightly overpriced with disposable minions.
Fast Healing - Great ability, well priced and a good idea to tack on the regenerative properties.
Frightful Presence - This is a good ability, and is well priced.
Improved Grab - This is confusing. Does this mean if i take this once, all the swarmlings tentacle attacks have Improved Grab? Or only one of the tentacles? If the latter, this ability is well priced.
Lightning Charge - Good, but again slightly cheaper would be nice, as this isn't that great.
Mettle - Good, but with disposable minions this is less useful than it appears. I think the cost might be decreased a bit, because you can always replace minions.
Paralysis - This is way to non-specific. Does the paralysis wear off or not? If I give my swarmlings ranged weapons can they use this at range? This is also a really good ability. I would make it last for a number of rounds based on your Swarmlord class level, or the number of evolution points invested in it, because as is, this is a save or die touch attack with disposable minions at level 9.
Poison - This is awesomely powerful as is. At 5th level, you can have a swarmling potentially doing 8d4 con damage in one round, with 2 extra natural weapons and the posion ability. Also if you give your weapons range, injury poison will be transmitted with your weapons, so poison shouldn't need a range ability. You need to specify what type of ability damage this does. You might want to make this do less damage to begin with, cost less and increase slower. Eg 3 points for 1 point of ability damage, 6 points for 1d4, 10 points for 1d6, 15 points for 2d6.
Pounce - I think this is too expensive, it should probably be more like 3 or even 2 points.
Scent - All's well here.
Swallow Whole - Do they take damage when inside the stomach of the Swarmling?
Trample - Seems much to weak considering the plethora of attacks you can get through investing points elsewhere


Spirit Force
This ability grants psionic or magical ability to a Swarmling. It may be taken twice separately to gain both.
Each third point gives a single level of casting or manifesting, as if a Psion or a Sorcerer of that many levels. This casting/manifesting is Intelligence based, and has a caster/manifester level of the number of points invested into this ability.

This ability is a great idea, but your swarmlings are only going to be able to contribute meaningfully if you specialize competely in this ability (taking Distant Manifestation twice, and taking Pinnacle Swarm [Spirit Force]), as otherwise at level two, your swarmlings will only be able to cast 3rd level powers/spells. Would getting a caster level at the first point, second point and every second point there after (4 points=CL 3, 6 points=CL 4 etc.) be more reasonable? The maximum caster level achievable for your swarmlings then is 15, with full specialization. Maybe that is a bit to high, but some kind of increase would be nice.


The Swarm Grows
For six points, the Swarmlord now has a second Swarmling. For twelve points, he has three. For eighteen points, he has four. The Swarmlings share the same pool of Evolution Points, and must buy evolutions seperately, but otherwise gain abilities at the same speed.

This ability is the best, it is literally the thing that makes this class so cool, but it grants you so few swarmlings. This would be great to have new swarmlings every 4 points, ie 4 points = 2 swarmlings, 8 points = 3 swarmlings etc.
Also does each swarmling get a evolution points equal to your total pool minise the cost of this evolution? Or is the one pool used to buy evolutions for each swarmling seperately, ie getting 1 extra HD for 3 swarmlings would be 6EP (evolution points)? If the latter is the case, then the evolution points pool created by the Swarmlord is to low, and prevents meaningful customization.
Making a high charisma grant bonus EP to the pool as if granting bonus power points based on ability modifier and Swarmlord level could be a way of mitigating this.

Overall, really love the class. Great work :smallbiggrin:.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-28, 10:47 PM
Thoughts:
I really like the idea behind this class, and the execution of many of the concepts. The evolution abilities are also generally clever.
After taking this and making some swarmlings, which after all are some of the coolest stuff this class gets, I did find that the wording of several of the EP costs meant that there meaning was confusing. Thoughts on each of the abilities is as follows:
Thanks! A lot of your feedback seems really helpful!


Ahh. This as written means that to increase a swarmlings weapons size once costs 2 points, twice is 3 points, three times is 4 points etc. If your going to use an increasing cost you might want to put an example in so that it is clear that one size increase is 2 points, two size increases to weapons is 3 points. INVALIDATED BY SIZE INCREASE
Whoops. It's meant to be 2 then three then four. May lower it to 1 then 2 then 3 etc, to make it easier to balance against size increase.


This ability looks to me like it is needlessly expensive for range. You should continue your trend of making increasing benefits increasingly expensive, but start out alot cheaper. 3 points for 10ft of range isn't that great at all. INVALIDATED POISION
Maybe have it start at 30ft, and add 30ft/40ft/50ft etc?
(Intention on poison isn't quite that, will clarify.)


This seems situational, but reasonably priced. However if you can't change swarmlings on the fly, and you don't have any prior knowledge of encounters, then unless the swarmlord is trying to be a nice queen and makes the swarmlings non-lethal, then I see no reason to take this ability.
It is primarily for a niche cool ability, yes. That said, rapid mutation should be an evolution weeeee!


This seems extremely expensive for a negligible increase.
I wouldn't call it negligible at all.
Although perhaps 2/2/7 would be better.


In my opinion, this is the best balanced of all the swarmling abilities, especially since it scales linearly, which is nice.
Thanks. Defences don't need to scale as hard as DCs and damage.


Since the swarmling must meet the prerequisites of the feats taken, I see no reason why this shouldn't scale linearly. This makes this ability overly expensive.
You're probably right...


A great ability useful to almost every type of swarmling.
Bread and butter, really. xD


This ability seems way to expensive. It should be one point for one ability increase.
Do you think so? I guess that could work.


Seems like a fun ability. A horde of exploding infested dire rats.
Not my idea, that one. xD


Pray tell what benefit does being controlled by a Swarmlord grant swarmlings? I mean they are controlled, but unless I've misread something drastically the EP is keyed of the Swarmlord who created the swarmlings at the time of their creation. However this ability is good, creating a functional lieutenant. Becuase the swarmling counts as if within Hive Mind range at all times, can the Swarmlord who created this Swarmling always send the Swarmling orders?
Well, it gives the Iron Will feat, lets the Swarmlord direct them as she desires, and fluffwise means they're part of the collective consciousness.


I'm not sure what to say for this one. At the same time as I want to say make it cheaper so your swarmlings can get better abilities, as you only ever get 4, at the same time that would make them to powerful.... I think this is great as is though. Good addition.
As an extension to this, would adding the ability for swarmlings to invest essentia and bind soulmelds through a similar function be a good idea?
Heh, thank you.
And I'm pretty sure that'd be fine, I just don't use binding to know how it works. xD


Yep, this ability seems great. Technically, if you infest something with a burrow speed, and then make them a swarmling, you have to give them another burrow speed in order to enhance it. Would an idea be "For every 2evolution points invested in this ability, a swarmling may increase an existing movement speed by 10ft.
For 3 points a swarmling may gain a climb, burrow or swim speed of 30ft. These may be enhanced as normal through this ability.
For 5 points a swarmling may gain a fly speed of 30ft, maneuverability of Average.
For every 4 points invested in increasing the fly movement speed, the maneuverability of the fly speed is increased by one category, up to a maximum of perfect"?
Whoooops. I'mma gonna copy paste your wording.


This is probably the most troubling ability. Not because it itself is overpowered or anything, I rather like it and think is is a good investment. However this constant point cost of 3 means that other abilities such as increasing the size of your natural weapons, which has an increasing cost per size increase, are invalidated because this ability both increases your weapon size, but also grants ability score increase. This ability is also far better than the inherent ability increases for your ability scores, because for only 3 points you can increase both Str and Con by 2. I would make increasing the size of your weapons cheaper, and also increasing your abilities cheaper so that more abilities are viable.
Whoooops. I'm making the others cheaper, and this should probably have a scaling cost too.


While these abilities are cool, most of them are so expensive that they aren't going to get much use till later in the game, or just at all.
Alter Form - Good ability, should be cheaper and just transform using a disguise self like effect into some humanoid.
I guess. It's great utility, which is why I was worried.


Breath Weapon - Decent, well priced and interesting. Would other types of breath weapon for additional points be a good idea?
you mean spend more points, get to choose between fire and cold?


Constrict - Good ability, but the extension to the price seems too great. 3 points for only 1d6 damage? Maybe increasing the strength modifier as well would be a good idea.
I'll make it slightly cheaper and scale... in fact, I'll just make it upgradable as a natural weapon.


Darkvision - 4 points for darkvision seems extremely pricey. I think 2 would be much more reasonable.
I have no idea. xD


Energy Drain - This is a great idea, especially the once per encounter limit, and well priced.
Thank you.


Evasion - Useful, but like mettle below this is slightly overpriced with disposable minions.
How so?


Fast Healing - Great ability, well priced and a good idea to tack on the regenerative properties.
Frightful Presence - This is a good ability, and is well priced.
Thanks.


Improved Grab - This is confusing. Does this mean if i take this once, all the swarmlings tentacle attacks have Improved Grab? Or only one of the tentacles? If the latter, this ability is well priced.
The latter, I need to clarify.


Lightning Charge - Good, but again slightly cheaper would be nice, as this isn't that great.
...agreed.


Mettle - Good, but with disposable minions this is less useful than it appears. I think the cost might be decreased a bit, because you can always replace minions.
...sensible.


Paralysis - This is way to non-specific. Does the paralysis wear off or not? If I give my swarmlings ranged weapons can they use this at range? This is also a really good ability. I would make it last for a number of rounds based on your Swarmlord class level, or the number of evolution points invested in it, because as is, this is a save or die touch attack with disposable minions at level 9.
Yes, no, good idea. Will clarify.


Poison - This is awesomely powerful as is. At 5th level, you can have a swarmling potentially doing 8d4 con damage in one round, with 2 extra natural weapons and the posion ability. Also if you give your weapons range, injury poison will be transmitted with your weapons, so poison shouldn't need a range ability. You need to specify what type of ability damage this does. You might want to make this do less damage to begin with, cost less and increase slower. Eg 3 points for 1 point of ability damage, 6 points for 1d4, 10 points for 1d6, 15 points for 2d6.
Whoops. It should be per weapon, and the range option is to let you spit the poison without a weapon.


Pounce - I think this is too expensive, it should probably be more like 3 or even 2 points.
Not sure. Pounce is STRONG.


Scent - All's well here.
Cool.


Swallow Whole - Do they take damage when inside the stomach of the Swarmling?
They should!


Trample - Seems much to weak considering the plethora of attacks you can get through investing points elsewhere
Fair. Incoming buffs.


This ability is a great idea, but your swarmlings are only going to be able to contribute meaningfully if you specialize competely in this ability (taking Distant Manifestation twice, and taking Pinnacle Swarm [Spirit Force]), as otherwise at level two, your swarmlings will only be able to cast 3rd level powers/spells. Would getting a caster level at the first point, second point and every second point there after (4 points=CL 3, 6 points=CL 4 etc.) be more reasonable? The maximum caster level achievable for your swarmlings then is 15, with full specialization. Maybe that is a bit to high, but some kind of increase would be nice.
I'm very, very leery of this ability. It currently uses the same scaling as the Martial abilities. At level 20, with pinnacle, you can get it to 24, which gives them Cast/manifest as an 8th level, with level 4 spells/powers.
Now... perhaps if each third point let them cast one level of spells. It would need to cap at eight at the very HIGHEST, and preferably lower. Six would seem good, at one less than the swarmlord, but... I'm not sure at all.



This ability is the best, it is literally the thing that makes this class so cool, but it grants you so few swarmlings. This would be great to have new swarmlings every 4 points, ie 4 points = 2 swarmlings, 8 points = 3 swarmlings etc.
Also does each swarmling get a evolution points equal to your total pool minise the cost of this evolution? Or is the one pool used to buy evolutions for each swarmling seperately, ie getting 1 extra HD for 3 swarmlings would be 6EP (evolution points)? If the latter is the case, then the evolution points pool created by the Swarmlord is to low, and prevents meaningful customization.
Making a high charisma grant bonus EP to the pool as if granting bonus power points based on ability modifier and Swarmlord level could be a way of mitigating this.
Well, the problem is time! If you have three swarmlings, your turn could take four times as long as another players, and that's assuming you share initiative.
The pool is for all of them to share. Having several weak or one strong is meant to be a valid choice.
However, I think I have a valid way to help it that you just inspired.


Overall, really love the class. Great work :smallbiggrin:.
Thanks. ^^

Hellwyrm
2012-08-29, 10:33 PM
First of all, the all caps INVALIDATED wasn't meant to mean that the ability was bad or anything, just a reminder to me to come back and discuss the relative benefits of abilites. Wasn't meant to offend :smallsmile:.


You mean spend more points, get to choose between fire and cold?

You know how different dragons have cool different breaths? Maybe if you paid extra EP you could get a swarmling breathing sonic energy, or dealing strength damage or something. Though on second thoughts this latter part conflicts with poison.... Actually this ability is fine.


Not sure. Pounce is STRONG.

Thought about it more, agreed with this decision.


I'm very, very leery of this ability. It currently uses the same scaling as the Martial abilities. At level 20, with pinnacle, you can get it to 24, which gives them Cast/manifest as an 8th level, with level 4 spells/powers.
Now... perhaps if each third point let them cast one level of spells. It would need to cap at eight at the very HIGHEST, and preferably lower. Six would seem good, at one less than the swarmlord, but... I'm not sure at all.

Yeah this ability is probably the hardest to pitch correctly. At the same time as this can lead to superpowered spell casting swarmlings, it can also make them to weak and make melee/weapon swarmlings much more powerful. Perhaps one spell level at one point, then one more spell level at 6 points, 12 points and 18 points (and again at 24 if you got the pinnacle ability). So thats almost exactly the same as your ability, it just comes online a little quicker at the beginning. This would cap the max spell level at 4, or at 5 if you got the pinnacle ability? And maybe only one swarmling per swarmlord may cast spells or powers?


Well, the problem is time! If you have three swarmlings, your turn could take four times as long as another players, and that's assuming you share initiative.
The pool is for all of them to share. Having several weak or one strong is meant to be a valid choice.
However, I think I have a valid way to help it that you just inspired.

After thinking about it more, and realising that your swarmlings can come from infested or assimilated creatures, swarmlings are powerful enough that your proposed limits are great. At the same time as I want to awesomeness of THE HORDE, I know that its unfeasible. I'm playing with a Dread Necro right now, when everyone in the party can cast, and does cast, Animate Undead, and each turn is SLOW.

Overall the number of points each swarmling gets seems perfect now.
Also with all your changes I like what I see.
Great work!
EDIT: Quote boxes broke, had to fix them.

Lix Lorn
2012-08-30, 09:52 AM
First of all, the all caps INVALIDATED wasn't meant to mean that the ability was bad or anything, just a reminder to me to come back and discuss the relative benefits of abilites. Wasn't meant to offend :smallsmile:.
No probs, I got that. ^^


You know how different dragons have cool different breaths? Maybe if you paid extra EP you could get a swarmling breathing sonic energy, or dealing strength damage or something. Though on second thoughts this latter part conflicts with poison.... Actually this ability is fine.
I'd probably be up for it, but each one would need to be written out separately as a special case xD


Yeah this ability is probably the hardest to pitch correctly. At the same time as this can lead to superpowered spell casting swarmlings, it can also make them to weak and make melee/weapon swarmlings much more powerful. Perhaps one spell level at one point, then one more spell level at 6 points, 12 points and 18 points (and again at 24 if you got the pinnacle ability). So thats almost exactly the same as your ability, it just comes online a little quicker at the beginning. This would cap the max spell level at 4, or at 5 if you got the pinnacle ability? And maybe only one swarmling per swarmlord may cast spells or powers?
Hmm. One seems a little early. I don't want them to be casting the same max level as a PC caster at any point.
Perhaps four points for each level...


After thinking about it more, and realising that your swarmlings can come from infested or assimilated creatures, swarmlings are powerful enough that your proposed limits are great. At the same time as I want to awesomeness of THE HORDE, I know that its unfeasible. I'm playing with a Dread Necro right now, when everyone in the party can cast, and does cast, Animate Undead, and each turn is SLOW.

Overall the number of points each swarmling gets seems perfect now.
Also with all your changes I like what I see.
Great work!
EDIT: Quote boxes broke, had to fix them.
Thank you!
...hmm. If you assimilate something with your HD, and make it a swarmling, it then gets 1/2 HD in bonus HD, and then you buy half/HD for it... Don't think this is working as intended...

Andrian Talehot
2012-09-27, 08:18 AM
LOVE THIS CLASS :smallbiggrin:
Other then that all I can say is that I really want to play it and to ask if you could please finish that bit in the infested area "Hive Minds-I Am Me And We Are The Swarm" (I don't mean to pressure you but I just don't feel like my DM would let me play this class until that bit has been finished)
Thanks for making an awesome class

Trodon
2012-09-27, 09:22 AM
Wow, this class is one of the best I've ever seen.

As for the Capstone abilities, I would say having the immortality, terminator, and then one or two more options to choose from. At this point in time I can't think of any suggestions, however I will think on it.

Also, amazing class.

Lix Lorn
2012-09-27, 02:51 PM
LOVE THIS CLASS :smallbiggrin:
Other then that all I can say is that I really want to play it and to ask if you could please finish that bit in the infested area "Hive Minds-I Am Me And We Are The Swarm" (I don't mean to pressure you but I just don't feel like my DM would let me play this class until that bit has been finished)
Thanks for making an awesome class
Whooops! It's mostly a large piece of fluff, explaining my own personal stance on what it's like being in a hive mind while still having your own self. I just need to get around to writing it. xD

Gideon Falcon
2012-09-27, 03:18 PM
A few things:

-As is, there is no cap on how many minions you can have. Even if this was intentional, I have to disagree with this vehemently. If you don't want the class to be broken from the get-go, you need to have a maximum number of minions.

-As written, the level cap on evolution points in a single evolution does not apply to Infested, Assimilated, or Embraced.

-When and how do you apply Evolution points? Do you simply apply them when you get a level and then have to wait a level before your minions improve, or is there a ritual? Can you redistribute Evolution points?

-The bonus points per minion does not specify which ability score they are keyed off of.

-I think the evolution costs might need to scale just a little bit faster. Not sure about this one, though, as I'll have to do some maths.

I might be forgetting a couple, so I'll try and remember them later on.

EDIT: Oh, yes!

-How does one go about replacing a dead Swarmling? Also, when it says you turn an Infested or Assimilated into a Swarmling instead of just making one, how and when does this happen? Is it when you gain a level, or is there a ritual?

Aside from those, it's pretty good so far.

C'nor
2012-09-27, 04:07 PM
I noticed that, while you said it was a good idea, Rite of Succession isn't in the feats or the evolutions, nor is something with similar effects. Do you intend to add it/something like it at some point, or did you change your mind?

Lix Lorn
2012-09-27, 04:26 PM
A few things:

-As is, there is no cap on how many minions you can have. Even if this was intentional, I have to disagree with this vehemently. If you don't want the class to be broken from the get-go, you need to have a maximum number of minions.
Huh? But the swarmlings are-
Oh, right. Yeah. That's very strong, and I couldn't think of any way to balance it. However, on thinking, I could use the precedent from animate dead. Will edit.


-As written, the level cap on evolution points in a single evolution does not apply to Infested, Assimilated, or Embraced.
Also a mistake.


-When and how do you apply Evolution points? Do you simply apply them when you get a level and then have to wait a level before your minions improve, or is there a ritual? Can you redistribute Evolution points?
Hadn't thought about it. Perhaps the next period of rest.


-The bonus points per minion does not specify which ability score they are keyed off of.
Whoops. Charisma, unless you take a feat to change it.


-I think the evolution costs might need to scale just a little bit faster. Not sure about this one, though, as I'll have to do some maths.
Feel free to get back to me.


-How does one go about replacing a dead Swarmling? Also, when it says you turn an Infested or Assimilated into a Swarmling instead of just making one, how and when does this happen? Is it when you gain a level, or is there a ritual?
Very specifically left unspecified. You could get swarmlings by cocooning cute woodland animals, laying eggs yourself, or some sort of parasitic kiss.
However, I will explain how long it normally takes.
As for turning infested and co into swarmlings, that would be 'whenever you would gain a new swarmling', which I'll also add.


Aside from those, it's pretty good so far.
Thanks. :)


I noticed that, while you said it was a good idea, Rite of Succession isn't in the feats or the evolutions, nor is something with similar effects. Do you intend to add it/something like it at some point, or did you change your mind?
I forgot. xD I'll add something like it.

Network
2012-09-27, 04:27 PM
-When and how do you apply Evolution points? Do you simply apply them when you get a level and then have to wait a level before your minions improve, or is there a ritual? Can you redistribute Evolution points?
A way to redistribute Evolution points (or to have mutable Evolution points) would be great. I'm thinking of a 5:1 ratio, granting to the swarmling the ability to change their mutable points every 8 hours or so. An evolution may allow to make the ''adaptation'' of the swarmling faster (one hour, then 10 minutes, then 1 minute, then a round, ...).

Not sure if I'm clear, though.

Lix Lorn
2012-09-27, 04:48 PM
A way to redistribute Evolution points (or to have mutable Evolution points) would be great. I'm thinking of a 5:1 ratio, granting to the swarmling the ability to change their mutable points every 8 hours or so. An evolution may allow to make the ''adaptation'' of the swarmling faster (one hour, then 10 minutes, then 1 minute, then a round, ...).

Not sure if I'm clear, though.

Mutable Form
This Evolution allows a Swarmling to adapt to the situation. Each third point in this ability grants two floating evolution points. As a full round action, the Swarmling may assign these points to any Evolution he qualifies for.

Like that one, that already exists? :smalltongue:

Andrian Talehot
2012-09-28, 01:14 AM
Oh and another thing that I forgot to mention. How long does it take for the cocoons to catch and when over the course of the infestation does the victim take their saves?

Lix Lorn
2012-09-28, 12:13 PM
The cocoons form instantly when they fail their fort save, and they make a will save at the END of the duration.
That's written in the ability. Should I make it clearer?

Andrian Talehot
2012-09-29, 07:28 AM
no don't make it clearer. I'm just unsure as to how long that they will be in the cocoon before you get your infected. (After all it would be op if it was straight away after they failed their saves but really annoying if it took as long as it did for Kerrgian to hatch in SC).
EDIT: whoops never mind... just reread the ability ... don't know how I missed that :smallredface:

Lix Lorn
2012-09-29, 10:53 AM
It's okay, everyone derps. xD
Do you think I could reword it to make it clearer, or were you just being herpaderp? :smallsmile:

Andrian Talehot
2012-09-30, 01:36 AM
herpaderp :P

Gideon Falcon
2012-10-01, 08:28 AM
If you're going to base the minion limit off HD like Animate Dead, that brings up another issue with Embraced and Assimilated: The bonus HD mutation. It's not a problem with the minion cap beyond being fairly clunky, but the big problem is with the templates that can be applied to other PCs. You don't want your friends to be able to gain half their level in extra HD, because that kind of messes up the game. So, you'll want to put in a preventative clause.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-01, 08:42 AM
They both apply a massive chunk of LA, so I honestly wouldn't mind that much. It'd be strong in gestalt, but many things are. Six character levels lost in exchange for your CL/2 HD. It's not a BAD trade, but... it's a trade you'd want to think about.

Network
2012-10-01, 04:07 PM
And then they embrace powerful NPCs... :smallamused:

What about this :
This ability can't increase the creature HD beyond what would be allowed for the Swarmlord. If the HD limit of the Swarmlord increase, the Swarmling receives the bonus HD it missed.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-01, 04:08 PM
And then they embrace powerful NPCs... :smallamused:

What about this :
This ability can't increase the creature HD beyond what would be allowed for the Swarmlord. If the HD limit of the Swarmlord increase, the Swarmling receives the bonus HD it missed.
...who are under no obligation to do what they say. At all.

Mystic Muse
2012-10-12, 12:22 AM
Lix, would you mind if I used some stuff in your class as inspiration for my own lord of the swarm monster class?

Lix Lorn
2012-10-12, 01:39 PM
Go ahead. xD

Erik Vale
2012-11-05, 08:56 PM
Thoughts from a player:

A note needs to be made under the increase HD for evolution points that no additional evolution points are granted for that increased HD, to prevent Embraced and Assimilated from having unlimited HD. (Assimilated get 2 points/HD, Costs 2/HD, cycle as needed.)

The Evolution (for the Swarmlord) that grants HD needs whether or not it also grants the Evolution points for that HD given the above clause.

An additional Evolution feat would be appreciated.

Edit: Can, and if so how do, the the templates from Assimilation, Infestation and Embrace stack?

Answerer
2012-11-05, 10:19 PM
I've only just started reading this, but I feel the need to comment on this:


A Swarmlord cannot use both natural and weapon attacks in the same full attack.
This is a really problematic rule, since it applies to all natural weapons. Frankly, I'd be inclined to drop it altogether: the interactions between natural and manufactured weapons are well-codified and standardized by the rules, it's very weird for this single class to be an exception. If you don't like the usual rules for them, that should be a separate houserule. But at the very least, it should be that she cannot use these natural weapons and manufactured weapons in the same full attack.

Also, a pair of natural weapons at level 1 is pretty good, even with limitations. Even the Totemist struggles to get that. Of course, one or two or even three natural weapons are found on a number of races, so it's not that big a deal.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-06, 04:41 PM
Thoughts from a player:

A note needs to be made under the increase HD for evolution points that no additional evolution points are granted for that increased HD, to prevent Embraced and Assimilated from having unlimited HD. (Assimilated get 2 points/HD, Costs 2/HD, cycle as needed.)

The Evolution (for the Swarmlord) that grants HD needs whether or not it also grants the Evolution points for that HD given the above clause.
Whooops. Will clarify on both.


An additional Evolution feat would be appreciated.
I can probably do that.


Edit: Can, and if so how do, the the templates from Assimilation, Infestation and Embrace stack?
I would expect that they do not.


This is a really problematic rule, since it applies to all natural weapons. Frankly, I'd be inclined to drop it altogether: the interactions between natural and manufactured weapons are well-codified and standardized by the rules, it's very weird for this single class to be an exception. If you don't like the usual rules for them, that should be a separate houserule. But at the very least, it should be that she cannot use these natural weapons and manufactured weapons in the same full attack.


Also, a pair of natural weapons at level 1 is pretty good, even with limitations. Even the Totemist struggles to get that. Of course, one or two or even three natural weapons are found on a number of races, so it's not that big a deal.
That... is why that line was in there. I will edit it to say swarmlord natural weapons.

Leliel
2012-11-06, 04:53 PM
Oh, I just had an idea for an all-Swarmlord, all-non-evil game!

They're all people who were chosen as sapient vaccines by the Elemental Plane of Flesh (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53869), becoming, in effect, the nucleus of their Swarm's cell proteins.

Normally the minds of the plane don't like choosing outside help as champions against the various disease creatures that show up there, but currently they're facing a rather toxic and dangerous enemy disease of outside manufacture. Hence, perspectives from the outside.

They didn't go for evil, because they are fully aware of a kind of cell that doesn't get along with other cells and works only for itself. It's called cancer. Yeah, no thank you.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-06, 05:42 PM
Oh wow. That would be pretty darn awesome! I do fear the plyers would find it hard to differentiate from one another, though. I tried to put in a lot of customisability, but unless you get to mess with the white blood cells and twist them into something totally different, you're kinda locked in thematically.

Erik Vale
2012-11-07, 10:40 PM
Quote:
Edit: Can, and if so how do, the the templates from Assimilation, Infestation and Embrace stack?


I would expect that they do not.

Ok, next question, can a Swarmlord replace a lower one with a higher (Lke infestation with assimilate), and if so, would mindlessnes from infestation remain.

Also, can the swarmlord self embrace/assimilate/infest?

Lix Lorn
2012-11-07, 10:52 PM
Ok, next question, can a Swarmlord replace a lower one with a higher (Lke infestation with assimilate), and if so, would mindlessnes from infestation remain.

Also, can the swarmlord self embrace/assimilate/infest?
Yes, yes, yes, no, no.

hiryuu
2012-11-07, 11:15 PM
Nice. Taken, will be used in my 3.P campaign. I must now do a d20 Modern version for my sci fi campaign.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-08, 03:39 PM
I hope it's useful. ^^

Erik Vale
2012-11-18, 06:56 PM
Some thoughts and Questions.

Swarmlords under a Swarmlord have all their infested/assimilated and embraced members of the Swarm as normal, however all of them count as belonging to the highest swarmlords Swarm, how does this interact with the highest swarmlords controll limit?
((Simpler Version, Swarmlord A controlls Swarmlord B, Swarmlord B has 10 HD of creatures in it's swarm, does this 10 HD also count against Swarmlord A's Limit?))

Given as swarmlords get their power from a hive mind, would it be possible to create a mechanic that grants the Swarmlord more/less psionic power based on the number of creatures/amount of HD in it's swarm (Power points and manifester levels mostly)?

A Swarmling is under the controll of a Swarmlord when within 10/ft per level, How does this work and how does the Swarmlord Comunicate?
((I.E. Do they have automatic two way telepathy/mind read when in range, and if so how does this interact with anti-psionic fields and hive node, and I would assume it is domminated by the sheer might of the hive mind.))
Should it be overwhelmed by the might of the hive mind, it might be worth considering a machanic for Swarmlords to do it to others, and Psions/Psionics have a way to 'overpower' the swarmlord.

At what inteligence range do Swarmlings have thier own personalities?
Assimilated and Embraced members of the Swarm keep their memories, and personalities if they stay out of the hive mind (or the Swarmlord has gentle queen). What happens to these personalities if subsumed? Can the Swarmlord keep the personality in the gestalt mind, or is it destroyed?

How does this class interact with +1 preexisting Manifestor Class? I would assume just psionic abilities but I have to ask.

What formulae is used for deriving power points (For taking the class into epic levels)? (On a simliar note, do you have any plans for an Epic expansion of this class?)

Edit: When you infest/etc creatures, you can make them a member of your swamlings. Do these creatures get the additional Hit Dice of Swarmlings?
For example, where I to assimilate my cohort and assign it to be a member of my swarm through additional swarmling, would the HD add. This is important, as through this a Swarmlord could have a Cohort with additional swarmling and evolution Hit Die creating a cohort with a hit die far in excess of the Swarmlord (Heat dice being less useful then class levels though, this may be a minimul problem.)
Edit: Already solved, yes, Dit dice maximum of the Swarmlord.

I think that is all the Q's.

Also, you say you have been thinking about a Capstone because an additional evolution seems to small, how about 2 Evolutions and a Template bassed on the templates the Swarmlord can give (Say, a modified Assimilated template that can be overwritten for Embraced, No additional LA djustment and reduced LA adjustment if self embracing/reduce of LA if already self embraced.).

And for ACF's as you are considering those, How about a reduced psionics greater BAB/Natural weapons, and a Reduced BAB/Increased Psionics ACF. Also, a increased Evolution points/Evo Cap/HD Cap version might be nice, not as sure what the trade off would be though.


I don't know if your still working on this, and it is a big thought dump, but it's always good for feedback.

Erik Vale
2012-11-19, 09:58 PM
Double checking the wording of this:

Double post, just a question I need to make sure isn't missed.


Evolution Points
Evolution points are spent on enhancing the Swarmling-or adding additional Swarmlings. A Swarmlord may not spend more evolution points on any one ability than the Swarmlord’s class level.

A Swarmlord also gains bonus Evolution points for each being she rules, which may only be applied to that being. These bonus points are equal to the bonus Power points gained by a psionic character for high abilities, using Charisma as the governing ability score. A Swarmling does not lose evolution points when the Swarmlord loses Charisma.
The formula is (Ability modifierXlevel)/2, and the table is here.
Ruled beings include all Swarmlings, and Infested, Assimilated, and Embraced that are part of her swarm and its Hive Mind.

This states that each individual swarmling, infested, etc gets (Class level*Ability mod)/2 additional ability points. This is a little excessive, as with that many evolution points to play with at high levels are god like, so did you mean that this pool is distributed over all members of the swarm, or for a pool for each member? If each member, this pool needs to be reduced to prevent Swarmlords from being Teir Pun Pun.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-19, 11:08 PM
Some thoughts and Questions.

Swarmlords under a Swarmlord have all their infested/assimilated and embraced members of the Swarm as normal, however all of them count as belonging to the highest swarmlords Swarm, how does this interact with the highest swarmlords controll limit?
((Simpler Version, Swarmlord A controlls Swarmlord B, Swarmlord B has 10 HD of creatures in it's swarm, does this 10 HD also count against Swarmlord A's Limit?))
It doesn't. It only counts if they're directly under your control.


Given as swarmlords get their power from a hive mind, would it be possible to create a mechanic that grants the Swarmlord more/less psionic power based on the number of creatures/amount of HD in it's swarm (Power points and manifester levels mostly)?
It would, but it would be very complicated, very difficult to balance, and would make them more of a one-trick pony.


A Swarmling is under the controll of a Swarmlord when within 10/ft per level, How does this work and how does the Swarmlord Comunicate?
((I.E. Do they have automatic two way telepathy/mind read when in range, and if so how does this interact with anti-psionic fields and hive node, and I would assume it is domminated by the sheer might of the hive mind.))
Should it be overwhelmed by the might of the hive mind, it might be worth considering a machanic for Swarmlords to do it to others, and Psions/Psionics have a way to 'overpower' the swarmlord.
The standard assumption would be telepathy, it would be Extraordinary.
An overpowering mechanic would make sense, but once again would make them very, very binary.


At what inteligence range do Swarmlings have thier own personalities?
Assimilated and Embraced members of the Swarm keep their memories, and personalities if they stay out of the hive mind (or the Swarmlord has gentle queen). What happens to these personalities if subsumed? Can the Swarmlord keep the personality in the gestalt mind, or is it destroyed?
Int 3+ is humanoid intelligence. Int 2 or less is animal intelligence.
If they do not make their will save, the personality is gone. If they do make their save and join the hive mind anyway, then their personality is past of the gestalt.


How does this class interact with +1 preexisting Manifestor Class? I would assume just psionic abilities but I have to ask.
Just psionic abilities.


What formulae is used for deriving power points (For taking the class into epic levels)? (On a simliar note, do you have any plans for an Epic expansion of this class?)
+3, +4, +5, +6, +6, +7, +8, +9, +10, +10. Each level adds one more than the level before it, but fifth levels add the same as the previous.


Also, you say you have been thinking about a Capstone because an additional evolution seems to small, how about 2 Evolutions and a Template bassed on the templates the Swarmlord can give (Say, a modified Assimilated template that can be overwritten for Embraced, No additional LA djustment and reduced LA adjustment if self embracing/reduce of LA if already self embraced.).
That sounds... really, really complicated. X_x


And for ACF's as you are considering those, How about a reduced psionics greater BAB/Natural weapons, and a Reduced BAB/Increased Psionics ACF. Also, a increased Evolution points/Evo Cap/HD Cap version might be nice, not as sure what the trade off would be though.
First two might work. Not sure on the second.


Double checking the wording of this:

Double post, just a question I need to make sure isn't missed.

This states that each individual swarmling, infested, etc gets (Class level*Ability mod)/2 additional ability points. This is a little excessive, as with that many evolution points to play with at high levels are god like, so did you mean that this pool is distributed over all members of the swarm, or for a pool for each member? If each member, this pool needs to be reduced to prevent Swarmlords from being Teir Pun Pun.
Look at how expensive some of the stuff is. A 20th level Swarmlord with cha 30 gets 100 points for each swarmling. It costs 20 points to get them up to 21 hit die. If you want them to be good at something, you really need that many points.

Tacitus
2012-11-19, 11:23 PM
Look at how expensive some of the stuff is. A 20th level Swarmlord with cha 30 gets 100 points for each swarmling. It costs 20 points to get them up to 21 hit die. If you want them to be good at something, you really need that many points.

Aye, I second Lix on this. In fact, the most broken thing you can do with that many EP would probably be a swarm of 8th level manifester/caster dual progression beasties with a caster level of 26, which requires four of your evolutions devoted to it and 48 EP. Add in 5ep for Mind over Matter to make casting viable and likely a bunch into Enhanced Attribute, 20 into Armored Scales for durability on these squishies, likely another 20 into HD for health, and you're breaking 100 easy.

Erik Vale
2012-11-20, 01:34 AM
Still, the thought of commoners getting that big. But heh.

MY main concern was however for creatures such as Embraced Cohorts that are part of the swarm (My charactrer in progress is going to have a cohort and familiar with over +200 in addition to whatever I give them).

Lix Lorn
2012-11-20, 05:16 PM
Still, the thought of commoners getting that big. But heh.

MY main concern was however for creatures such as Embraced Cohorts that are part of the swarm (My charactrer in progress is going to have a cohort and familiar with over +200 in addition to whatever I give them).
Ah, well. Getting ONE character with +300 or more points is an intended option. If it's not clear, the base evolution points are SHARED between all swarmlings, while every member of the swarm gains its own pool from the swarmlord's charisma score.

Also, I know that I wouldn't let you embrace a cohort without paying for the LA somehow.

Erik Vale
2012-11-20, 05:58 PM
I know the pool is Shared. (I'm basically spreading between swarmlings).

As for Cohort, I'm playing Level 28 with a 26 Level cohort, Embraced and Swarmling now, its a lvl 20 with 8 Swarmling HD, Becoming +120 Evo from Charisma and + 112.
The Swarmling points I use to increase my less important swarmlings.

Also, while I think on it, how do Swarmling Evolution points advance past level 20?

Similar on the line of my Familiar, Fusion the two together and I have a death machine I totally controll, legal.

As to the Capstone, not really. Quick Example in spoiler based on modified Assimilated Template.


Queen Incarnate (Level 20)
When the Swarmlord gains this ability, it gains one additional evolution (granting two evolutions for level 20).

This Feature grants the Swarm Queen Template. Should this template be replaced with the Embraced Template, it counts as an increase of level adjustment of only (x(2 or three suggested)) instead of 6.

Swarm Queen Template

Speed: The Swarm Queen gains +10ft to Land Speed.

Armor Class: The Swarm Queen gains +4 Natural Armour Class, and +1 to Resist.

Special Qualities: Self Evolving. The Swarm Queen counts as being part of her swarm, gaining Evolution points to use on herself as per any member of her swarm. (Number = Class Level*Ability Score Modiier/2)

Abilities: Str+4, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +2, 2 Wis, Cha +4.
If you have Shrewd Queen or Queens Guidence, you may Swap the +4 Charisma to Wisdom or Intelligence. ((Perhaps only +2 Charisma for +6 Str for combat based ACF))

Feats: Iron Will. Force of Personality.

LA: +0

Lix Lorn
2012-11-20, 06:44 PM
@_@

Each level, evolution points increase by one more than the previous level.

I'm just not sure. I don't want to just give a sudden, flat power boost at level 20. I've considered giving them the Embraced template, but if I do, I'll give it to them over the course of their levels.

Erik Vale
2012-11-20, 09:29 PM
Between 9-18 there is nothing, so it might be good to fit something around 12/13, just to avoid the huge power boost near the end of the class.

Yea, I would suggest Say 12/11 Infested Base. I was personally aiming to end at Assimilated but one based on that would fit well at 14/15, with assimilated base at 20.

Silva Stormrage
2012-11-22, 03:42 PM
How exactly do you stop a creep tumor? I know from Starcraft that its a physical object that burrows in the ground but its rather vague in this form. Is it a physical object? Can the creep it spawns be removed by wish? Miracle? Heal? Remove Curse? How hard is it to destroy a creep tumor? How big is it? Does the creep get removed instantly once the creep tumor is removed or does it take time?

Also do two creep tumors on the same spot multiply the rate? As in do they increase the creep spread to 40ft radius increase per hour?

Fairly important if I want to run one of these as a villian who tries to creep over the world :smalltongue: I would have to house rule how the PC's could stop the spread of creep.


Over all incredible class I really enjoy it :smallbiggrin: 10/10

Edit: Also do infested/assimliated constructs gain a con score? It isn't mentioned in the Synthetic Swarm Evolution

Erik Vale
2012-11-22, 04:54 PM
Edit: Also do infested/assimliated constructs gain a con score? It isn't mentioned in the Synthetic Swarm Evolution

That. That would be funny/interesting/odd, you would end up with golums gaining negative constitution modifiers.
However,


Humanoids change to monstrous humanoids. Vermin and animals change to magical beasts. Other types remain as they were. Size is unchanged.


Bolded for emphases, constructs remain constructs, construct type states they have no con score, therefore infested/etc constructs do not gain a con score.

Edit: Q, on that train of thought, If a Swarmlord has no Con Score (Say, it became undead), what happens to constitution based DC's?
((I'm cheking SRD for something based on this, also for poisons, as a point of interest))

Lix Lorn
2012-11-22, 06:18 PM
How exactly do you stop a creep tumor? I know from Starcraft that its a physical object that burrows in the ground but its rather vague in this form. Is it a physical object? Can the creep it spawns be removed by wish? Miracle? Heal? Remove Curse? How hard is it to destroy a creep tumor? How big is it? Does the creep get removed instantly once the creep tumor is removed or does it take time?
Oh, hmm. I imagine it should have hit points...


Also do two creep tumors on the same spot multiply the rate? As in do they increase the creep spread to 40ft radius increase per hour?
No. xD


Fairly important if I want to run one of these as a villian who tries to creep over the world :smalltongue: I would have to house rule how the PC's could stop the spread of creep.
Rule 0 is the best rule. :P


Over all incredible class I really enjoy it :smallbiggrin: 10/10
Thanks!


Edit: Also do infested/assimliated constructs gain a con score? It isn't mentioned in the Synthetic Swarm Evolution


That. That would be funny/interesting/odd, you would end up with golums gaining negative constitution modifiers.
However,

Bolded for emphases, constructs remain constructs, construct type states they have no con score, therefore infested/etc constructs do not gain a con score.
Yes, that. xD


Edit: Q, on that train of thought, If a Swarmlord has no Con Score (Say, it became undead), what happens to constitution based DC's?
((I'm cheking SRD for something based on this, also for poisons, as a point of interest))
Technically, Con - has a modifier of 0. I'm not entirely sure what to do about this.

OH ALSO
There is a hive mind sidebar now!

Erik Vale
2012-11-22, 06:50 PM
You are loved. I'm not sure who by, but you are.

I have read the Hive mind sidebar, It seems to be best for good swarmlords with everything being cared for and considered, but I can see it applying both ways.
Having read it, It shows that they should all have constant telepathy, however a thought:

- Based on the sidebar, I would say that all members of the swarm can use the highest skill levels of any member, not just the swarmlord be able to replace his/her swarmling skills. This however may end up with an omni-skilled character that only looses skill monkey abilities when it is reduced in size.

Edit: You need to update your edit notes at the bottom of the OP. Now you just need the template gain, maybe swarmlings edits if you haven't already, and ACF.

Also, with The Swarm Grows, who count as spending the points to reach the point cap? With the each member gets it's own special points, it would be possible to have unlimited swarmlings under your (direct and indirect) controll.

Durazno
2012-11-22, 09:16 PM
One thing I've been thinking about for a while, and I apologize if I missed the place where something like this exists, but might it be possible for a swarmlord to somehow "save" or "store" the mind of a creature s/he is infesting? I guess it would be a psychic thing. But that way you could make an investment to counteract the problem of the mindlessness remaining when you move creatures up from infestation to the higher levels of swarmness.

Or am I misunderstanding this?

Erik Vale
2012-11-22, 09:35 PM
Already asked, no the personality is completely destroyed...

However, it might be worth making a Feat like this invocation.


Nevermore
Dark; 9th
Through this invocation, you draw the soul from a newly dead body and imprison it within yourself permanently. The subject must have been dead no more than 1 round per caster level and can make a Will saving throw to negate the effect (with a +2 circumstance bonus for every soul you already hold trapped in this manner). If a creature saves against this invocation, you may not target that creature again with it unless they have been raised from the dead and then subsequently died again. If successful, this invocation deals 1 point of damage for every Hit Die that the subject possesses; this damage cannot be reduced or prevented in any way. The soul, once trapped within your body, cannot be returned through clone, raise dead, reincarnation, resurrection, true resurrection, or even a miracle or wish. All souls so trapped are released should you die. At any time, you can voluntarily release one of the souls that you are holding as a full-round action, though doing so deals you another 1 point of damage for every Hit Die that the subject possesses that cannot be avoided or prevented.

When you trap a soul in this manner, you may pick one skill in which the subject had trained. You gain a profane bonus to that skill equal to 1/3 the creature's Hit Dice for as long as you hold that soul within yourself.



Probably weaker than that, however, and without the damage.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-23, 12:00 AM
You are loved. I'm not sure who by, but you are.

I have read the Hive mind sidebar, It seems to be best for good swarmlords with everything being cared for and considered, but I can see it applying both ways.
Having read it, It shows that they should all have constant telepathy, however a thought:
This is probably because of my own prejudices. I may note that this is one interpretation: That sidebar is FLUFF, not crunch. It can be changed.


- Based on the sidebar, I would say that all members of the swarm can use the highest skill levels of any member, not just the swarmlord be able to replace his/her swarmling skills. This however may end up with an omni-skilled character that only looses skill monkey abilities when it is reduced in size.
This is a problem. While the GESTALT CONSCIOUSNESS would have all their skills, actually applying them through the link is difficult.


Edit: You need to update your edit notes at the bottom of the OP. Now you just need the template gain, maybe swarmlings edits if you haven't already, and ACF.
I have updated them. They show only things that are wrong with what is there, rather than future plans.


Also, with The Swarm Grows, who count as spending the points to reach the point cap? With the each member gets it's own special points, it would be possible to have unlimited swarmlings under your (direct and indirect) controll.
The Swarmlord does, and no it isn't. Notice the limit of points to a character's level, and the fact that each extra-
Oh, hey. This is a good catch. I'll make this very clear.


One thing I've been thinking about for a while, and I apologize if I missed the place where something like this exists, but might it be possible for a swarmlord to somehow "save" or "store" the mind of a creature s/he is infesting? I guess it would be a psychic thing. But that way you could make an investment to counteract the problem of the mindlessness remaining when you move creatures up from infestation to the higher levels of swarmness.

Or am I misunderstanding this?
Not really. If you want them to stay intelligent, you need to not get rid of the intelligence in the first place.
I guess I just don't see how it's that useful. How about, if you write this ability up as an evolution or a feat, I'll clean it up and add it? Since it seems to be something a couple of people want.

dethkruzer
2012-11-23, 11:14 AM
really liking this class. First of all I'd like to point out that there seems to be a typo in the "powers Known" column, at level 16. I also wanted to ask how
The Swarm Grows Evolution works, the Evolution points are deducted from the Swarmlords pool, correct? But also, since it gives you new Swarmlings, do these swarmlings each have their own pool of evolution points? Lastly, The Infested, Assimilate, and Embraced gain evolutions, I assume these evolutions are the same ones used by Swarmlings, is this right?

Lix Lorn
2012-11-23, 07:23 PM
really liking this class. First of all I'd like to point out that there seems to be a typo in the "powers Known" column, at level 16.
Whoops. Fixed.


I also wanted to ask how
The Swarm Grows Evolution works, the Evolution points are deducted from the Swarmlords pool, correct? But also, since it gives you new Swarmlings, do these swarmlings each have their own pool of evolution points?
There is one pool of evolution points that is shared by all swarmlings. The Swarm Grows comes from this pool. In addition, each Swarmling gets points based on the Swarmlords level and charisma.


Lastly, The Infested, Assimilate, and Embraced gain evolutions, I assume these evolutions are the same ones used by Swarmlings, is this right?
Yes.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-24, 12:28 AM
oh god why did I not reserve posts.
...
Oh god I need to clean up those sections. X_x

C'nor
2012-11-24, 01:07 AM
Would you like me to do a writeup for Creep Tumors, so that you don't have quite as much to work on?

Also, on the whole thing about making hivemind people individuals again, I suspect the main reason to do so would be if you take over a swarm where the Swarmlord previously in control had chosen not to leave them intelligent.

Erik Vale
2012-11-24, 02:06 AM
If they do not make their will save, the personality is gone. If they do make their save and join the hive mind anyway, then their personality is past of the gestalt.



These mental ability scores are fixed mental traits, and are not gained by Infested that pass their will save on creation. As clarification, these new ability scores represent the fact that the original self is effectively dead. Resurrection magic treats it as if their body was completely destroyed. (if the Infested body is slain, it can be used for resurrection again.)



If he failed his save, his identity, while still distinct, is perfectly loyal to the swarm. It is usually not gained by an Assimilated who passes his will save. A Swarmlord may choose not to cause this perfect loyalty effect. Healing an Assimilated to their original views is difficult. Remove Curse allows them a new will save, success freeing them, while spells such as Miracle or Wish are necessary to cure them automatically, and even that will not remove the template. (A second application would.)

Bolded the impotent bits.
Long story short, nothing short of a Wish or Miracle will return them to their previous views/restore their mind (with a decent chance of success, given that Swarmlords would go out of their way to become powerful) while Alive if they are of the Assimilated, and nothing can be done to resserect them.
Should they die thought, the personality/soul somehow reforms and can be reserected, even at the mindless infested level (This might need changing.)

A thought however, The Mindless Infested section says that the original is treated as dead, however they can't be reserected. How does this work with spells such as clone, which allow the soul to flee to the second body on death?
((If it prevents it, Swarmlords 1, Casters 0))

As someone said about the Creep stations, I might to make up some basic templates for acquisition throughout the swarmlord levels.

Edit: Opps, misread what you said. However, I'll leave it, it'll be good to have these bits out and bolded for thoughts and Q's...

As for getting cluttered, maybe make a new thread, continue development in this, Post the finished bits in the other.

Edit: You haven't given the blindsence, Blindsight and Darkvision special abilities ranges.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-24, 11:44 AM
Yeah, an Infested is considered to be dead. They can be resurrected, but their body can't be used for it unless it's been killed.
While an Assimilated is closer to being mind-controlled.

Will add range for vision stuff.

Erik Vale
2012-11-24, 08:17 PM
Q, How does the Spirit force Evolution interact with infested/etc that already have sorcerer/Psion Casting?
I.E.:
Do the Levels Stack for purposes of Powers and Points/spells known and slots? (I.E a level 5 Psion with 15 points in Spirit force Become Level 10 Psion)
Do the Levels Stack for purposes of manifestor level? (I.E a level 5 Psion with 15 points in Spirit force has manifestor level 20)
Do they Count Separately? (Assumed at moment) (I.E a level 5 Psion with 15 points in Spirit force treats them separately)

Lix Lorn
2012-11-24, 08:33 PM
Q, How does the Spirit force Evolution interact with infested/etc that already have sorcerer/Psion Casting?
I.E.:
Do the Levels Stack for purposes of Powers and Points/spells known and slots? (I.E a level 5 Psion with 15 points in Spirit force Become Level 10 Psion)
Do the Levels Stack for purposes of manifestor level? (I.E a level 5 Psion with 15 points in Spirit force has manifestor level 20)
Do they Count Separately? (Assumed at moment) (I.E a level 5 Psion with 15 points in Spirit force treats them separately)
Both of the first two statements are true.

A level 5 Wilder with 15 points in spirit force, however, would treat them seperately.

dethkruzer
2012-11-25, 07:12 PM
would you by any chance have a change log for this class? seeing as it is still being worked .

Lix Lorn
2012-11-25, 07:31 PM
Fraid not, why?

dethkruzer
2012-11-25, 07:44 PM
well, I just noticed the Iron scales Evolution/Adaption had been changed, and I was just wondering if there had been any other mentionable changes, in this case, mostly concerning swarmlings and their evolutions/what-ever-you-are-calling-them-now.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-25, 08:40 PM
I nerfed Ironscales because I was designing an Assimilated, and the template ended up giving them thirteen natural armor, minimum. Eleven is still too high really, but I'm not sure how to fix it.

There are several new Evolutions for Swarmlings. I renamed the Swarmlord Evolutions to Adaptions, because it was getting really confusing to refer to them. Infested, Assimilated, and Embraced get more evolution points now, and their Evolution section has been streamlined.

Erik Vale
2012-12-02, 04:53 PM
Q: How does Mutable form interact with Spontainious Casters and Extra Spell Feats/Metamagic Feats?

Theoretically, After a few rounds observation and a round of choosing new spells/metamagic, a caster can choose the perfect spells for the job. In the case on PnP played games, this is less troubling due to the GM being able to reasonably say no due to time constraints but for PBP, A rulling is needed.
I would suggest a several round/minute/hour delay between granted spells, just to prevent infested sorcerers/warlocks/druids/clerics making the swarmlord firmly OP.

Lix Lorn
2012-12-02, 10:31 PM
Q: How does Mutable form interact with Spontainious Casters and Extra Spell Feats/Metamagic Feats?

Theoretically, After a few rounds observation and a round of choosing new spells/metamagic, a caster can choose the perfect spells for the job. In the case on PnP played games, this is less troubling due to the GM being able to reasonably say no due to time constraints but for PBP, A rulling is needed.
I would suggest a several round/minute/hour delay between granted spells, just to prevent infested sorcerers/warlocks/druids/clerics making the swarmlord firmly OP.
It shouldn't. If you suddenly get more spells, they are gained as EMPTY spell slots. You'd need a few hours to fill them.

Silva Stormrage
2012-12-02, 11:25 PM
It shouldn't. If you suddenly get more spells, they are gained as EMPTY spell slots. You'd need a few hours to fill them.

Extra spell lets the caster gain another spell known not another spell slot. What he is saying is that it lets a sorcerer effectively learn any spell it wants as a full round action at will. Which would break a sorcerer completely as it now knows every single utility spell that it ever needs.

Erik Vale
2012-12-03, 03:52 AM
Extra spell lets the caster gain another spell known not another spell slot. What he is saying is that it lets a sorcerer effectively learn any spell it wants as a full round action at will. Which would break a sorcerer completely as it now knows every single utility spell that it ever needs.

This was what I meant (I thought the end of this post made it clear). Particularly, I am looking at the Warlock I am playing now that I have realised it. (Well, about to play...) I effectively have every invocation I could ever need chose-able as a full round action, as long as it doesn't need to be done through epic invoking.

Lix Lorn
2012-12-03, 12:31 PM
Aaaaah. Hm. Yeah, that's not an intended interaction. Not sure if there's a subtle way to fix it...

Erik Vale
2012-12-03, 06:52 PM
Well, Like I said. You could institute a several round/Minute wait. You could state that feats that grant extra spells/spell slots cant be chosen (Additional spell slots is also important, a spontainious could spend two rounds to loose then gain such feats to 'refresh'), you could state that such feat changes take a Longer time period or get locked in for a time period.

Say, you could have it as wizard spell preperation

Here are some examples that you can put in (The top to lines are always the same, chose one of the other blocks of text)

When using Mutable Form, any use that grants additional spells or spells known have the Following Effects:

Mutable Form instead takes takes 5 rounds of Full round Actons insted of 1 Round, durring which you are treated as flat footed and may take no other actions.
This also applies for power points and other forms of casting. (Change relevent words, such as spell slots to power points)


OR

Mutable Form will Never Grant Additional spell slots or spells, or any other form of additional casting.
This also applies for power points and other forms of casting. (Change relevent words, such as spell slots to power points)


OR

Mutable form can only be used to select new spells or have any affect that adds aditional spell slots 1 per day. This process takes 1 hour of Concentration and these points cannot be moved for 23 hours. If additional slots are granted through stat bonus, these points are applied as normal, but if taken off and reaplied, unused slots are always removed first. Also, should a used slot be taken away, should the stat points be reasigned then used slots are returned as used, preventing the refreshing of spell slots.
This also applies for power points and other forms of casting. (Change relevent words, such as spell slots to power points)

OR

If Mutable form is used in a way that grants spell slots or additional spells known, these slots are granted after the end of the encounter, or 5 minutes, whichever is longer. (Or as the DM feels apropriate)
This also applies for power points and other forms of casting. (Change relevent words, such as spell slots to power points)

Lix Lorn
2012-12-03, 07:08 PM
I think I'll just specifically say you can't get Spirit Force or feats.

Erik Vale
2012-12-03, 07:18 PM
And again, Druids and Sorcerers can gain/loose spell slots with increased atributes.

Lix Lorn
2012-12-03, 08:13 PM
Gpoint, will clarify.

Aldurin
2012-12-05, 10:50 PM
Since I'm going to be using this in a game I want to ask about the whole race thing, since it's not entirely clear.

At the top it says that the Swarmlord ARE a race, yet in the description of the Subtlety Adaption it says "making her look like a normal member of her race". The former implies that you don't get to select a race if you start as a Swarmlord, but the latter implies you choose a race before your character becomes a Swarmlord.

What I'm asking is does the Swarmlord class deny you the ability to choose a race, or do they get to choose a race and get such racial benefits normally?

Lix Lorn
2012-12-05, 11:11 PM
Since I'm going to be using this in a game I want to ask about the whole race thing, since it's not entirely clear.

At the top it says that the Swarmlord ARE a race, yet in the description of the Subtlety Adaption it says "making her look like a normal member of her race". The former implies that you don't get to select a race if you start as a Swarmlord, but the latter implies you choose a race before your character becomes a Swarmlord.

What I'm asking is does the Swarmlord class deny you the ability to choose a race, or do they get to choose a race and get such racial benefits normally?
You still get a race. Taking Swarmlord levels is more like a template.

Aldurin
2012-12-05, 11:14 PM
You still get a race. Taking Swarmlord levels is more like a template.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Lix Lorn
2012-12-06, 10:24 AM
No problem. :smallsmile:

Erik Vale
2012-12-06, 07:00 PM
Q: Do only swarmlord levels count for the Evolution Point Cap, or do all class levels count? This might be assumed knowledge that I don't have but clarification would be nice.

Q: How Pinnical Swarm interact with The Swarm Grows? Does it Add points as normal, or get ignored as the Swarmlord is technically using those points on 'herself'?

Lix Lorn
2012-12-06, 07:23 PM
Q: Do only swarmlord levels count for the Evolution Point Cap, or do all class levels count? This might be assumed knowledge that I don't have but clarification would be nice.
Only Swamlord levels.

...although, I may change that. As it is, multiclassing out means you're USELESS. For now, only Swarmlord levels.


Q: How Pinnical Swarm interact with The Swarm Grows? Does it Add points as normal, or get ignored as the Swarmlord is technically using those points on 'herself'?
It adds points as normal! You'll note that the numbers work perfectly, as 24 is a multiple of six and adds another swarmling. As a downside, your GM and co-players may hate you. :smallwink:

Erik Vale
2012-12-06, 07:36 PM
*Wicked Grinning*

What about you do it the same as with Swarm cap, Each level in another class counts as +1/2 for the cap. (So a level 8/2 something gets a cap of 9)

Lix Lorn
2012-12-06, 07:41 PM
Yeah, that was what I was thinking.

Aldurin
2012-12-06, 07:45 PM
For Enhanced Ability, do reductions count against your total spending toward the cap on that evolution?

For example: If a level 10 swarmlord wants to increase a swarmling's Strength and constitution by 6 (12 points total) and decrease Charisma by 4 (gain 2 points back), would the bonus points keep that sort of spending within the limit of 10 points?

Erik Vale
2012-12-06, 07:47 PM
Thanks. This will work well...

Damn, I think I am overly lacking in feat slots for the game I'm playing... I'ma need lots of flaws.

Hmm. Swarmlords getting lots of interest now...

Q: Would you like me to work on templates gained as levels, or are you working on that at the moment? (You mentioned thinking about it)

Lix Lorn
2012-12-06, 08:24 PM
For Enhanced Ability, do reductions count against your total spending toward the cap on that evolution?

For example: If a level 10 swarmlord wants to increase a swarmling's Strength and constitution by 6 (12 points total) and decrease Charisma by 4 (gain 2 points back), would the bonus points keep that sort of spending within the limit of 10 points?
Hmmm. Let's go with Yes.


Thanks. This will work well...

Damn, I think I am overly lacking in feat slots for the game I'm playing... I'ma need lots of flaws.

Hmm. Swarmlords getting lots of interest now...

Q: Would you like me to work on templates gained as levels, or are you working on that at the moment? (You mentioned thinking about it)
I like doing stuff myself. But thanks!

Andrian Talehot
2012-12-15, 07:01 AM
Just reading though the class again (I'm using it in a campaign now and loving it) and I think that I quite like the sound of templates (providing that they are LA free) but I would also like to bring up another possibility. I can't help but think as I am rereading the class that I would love to be able to do some of the things that my swarming is capable of and thought that maybe rather then giving the swarm lord a template you could give us evolution points that we could spend on the swarm lord. (not sure how easy that would be to balance but I personally really like the idea of spending points that I gain though levels on my abilities rather then reaching a mile stone of a sorts and making a choice about what upgrade that I am going to choose out of the current 17 possible upgrades.) You can just ignore my idea if you want but I just see it as a bit of a smoother way of evolving/adapting. (part of the reason for this idea was poison because I noticed that while your swarmlings and others can get poison there is nothing that will let you do that and while you can grow in size you can't shrink, you can't gain a burrow speed and you can't gain fast healing) ... I know that a lot of that can be hard to balance and understand if you don't want to but these are just my personal thoughts having played my first session today XD. Anyway I hope that you consider my idea.

Lix Lorn
2012-12-15, 03:50 PM
That's an entirely valid point! The easiest way would be to use Infestation on yourself. But I do intend to add a way to get Evolution points for the Swarmlord themself, I'm just not yet sure what.

Erik Vale
2012-12-16, 07:04 AM
Two ways currently:
Be an infested/assimilated. Use abduction/abdictation on self :P.
Get high enough level and use embraced template.

Andrian Talehot
2012-12-16, 07:21 AM
I didn't consider infested/assimilate. However should you do that then you end up with that horrible thing that we know as LA *shudders*(really really hates LA). Secondly I'm not quite sure how that second one works (just don't really understand how that gives you points both in the rules sense and flavour sense)

Lix Lorn
2012-12-16, 11:08 AM
Two ways currently:
Be an infested/assimilated. Use abduction/abdictation on self :P.
Get high enough level and use embraced template.
I... don't see what you mean with the first one.


I didn't consider infested/assimilate. However should you do that then you end up with that horrible thing that we know as LA *shudders*(really really hates LA). Secondly I'm not quite sure how that second one works (just don't really understand how that gives you points both in the rules sense and flavour sense)
Ahhh. Well, I just added two feats for it, so LA is no longer the only option. :smallsmile:

Erik Vale
2012-12-17, 02:05 AM
I'll look at those feats.

As for the 1st method I mentioned, Have a swarm lord infest/assimilate you and take control of you.
Have some means to regain control.
Use Abduction ability of Abduction and Abdictation on yourself, assigning yourself as your controller. This grants you your own mind back and has you the template.
Or you could say a swarm lord with gentle queen did it to you originally.

Lix Lorn
2012-12-17, 11:16 AM
...or you could just use the ability on yourself. xD

Morph Bark
2012-12-17, 04:00 PM
If the Swarmlord is a race, I'm guessing there are no starting stats beyond what this class gains at first level, and the class cannot be taken by other races?

Erik Vale
2012-12-17, 06:23 PM
Lix, I already asked if a swarm lord could self infest/assimilate/embrace, and only Embrace was usable on self. I'll find the quote later.

@ Morph
No, it's races as normal. It's just a flavour thing Lix put in... Which might be worth changing (Even if just brackets to clarify that you can take this class as normal)

Lix Lorn
2012-12-17, 09:03 PM
If the Swarmlord is a race, I'm guessing there are no starting stats beyond what this class gains at first level, and the class cannot be taken by other races?


Lix, I already asked if a swarm lord could self infest/assimilate/embrace, and only Embrace was usable on self. I'll find the quote later.

@ Morph
No, it's races as normal. It's just a flavour thing Lix put in... Which might be worth changing (Even if just brackets to clarify that you can take this class as normal)
...huh. I don't remember why I decided that. That seems silly now.

Yeah, the race thing has come up twice. Edited it. That was always meant to be a fluff line.

Silva Stormrage
2012-12-20, 10:16 PM
A question for the embraced template and the swapping of HD to swarmlord levels. If you embrace say a great wyrm dragon could he swap all of his HD to swarmlord levels even if he has more than 20 HD? What exactly would happen? Just continue progression? You might want to clarify what happens in this situation.

Also as a side note that would be an absolutely terrifying creature :smalleek: if a player did that to a dragon I think that dragon could just start slaughtering everything in his wake.

Erik Vale
2012-12-20, 10:47 PM
Well yea, it doesn't have to listen to the Swarmlord.

Thats why you infest a dragon instead, also, think what would happen if a Dragon swapped all it's hit dice for Swarmlord levels. It would suddenly become a baby dragon.
I would like to think DM's would limit the amount of swapping. Also, I think there is a 1 HD/CL limit.

Editted to be true.

Lix Lorn
2012-12-21, 12:57 AM
A question for the embraced template and the swapping of HD to swarmlord levels. If you embrace say a great wyrm dragon could he swap all of his HD to swarmlord levels even if he has more than 20 HD? What exactly would happen? Just continue progression? You might want to clarify what happens in this situation.

Also as a side note that would be an absolutely terrifying creature :smalleek: if a player did that to a dragon I think that dragon could just start slaughtering everything in his wake.
I will probably write an epic progression up, as soon as I need one. However...


Well yea, it doesn't have to listen to the Swarmlord.

Thats why you infest a dragon instead, also, think what would happen if a Dragon swapped all it's hit dice for Swarmlord levels. It would suddenly become a baby dragon.
I would like to think DM's would limit the amount of swapping. Also, I think there is a 1 HD/CL limit.

Editted to be true.
There is a 1 HD limit.

Aldurin
2012-12-21, 01:10 AM
Epic Progression would be nice to know, I'm using this class for an epic-level game and so far all I know is that going epic keeps stacking level-dependent stuff like evolution points and the beefiness of your swarmlings.

Lix Lorn
2012-12-21, 01:21 AM
Well, it'd just continue advancing things at the same rate. Have a couple of bonus feat options.

Durazno
2012-12-21, 01:32 AM
Would a dragon who traded a bunch of its dragon hd for Swarmlord levels become sickly and emaciated-looking, then? I mean, since the the Swarmlord has smaller dice.

Lix Lorn
2012-12-21, 01:34 AM
If it could, which it can't, then yes, and it would also drop age categories.

Erik Vale
2012-12-21, 01:55 AM
You know have a funny mental picture of a dragon that stupidly wished all it's HD for Swarmlord class levels, becoming a sickly baby...
Or inelligently having cast genises and then going to a pre-prepped plane so it grew up, and repeating several times for unlimited levels...

Aldurin
2012-12-21, 01:59 AM
Thing is if a dragon is going swarmlord and is replacing his HD with swarmlord levels, there is no reason for him to not use evolution points to artificially increase to his maximum possible size. That way you get baby dragons as huge as elder ones and horribly infected in ways so that it looks terribly off. Then it looks ridiculous when he flaps like a hummingbird because he enhanced his flight to perfect control.

Lix Lorn
2012-12-21, 02:42 AM
xD
This is awesome and dumb.

Erik Vale
2012-12-30, 02:19 AM
Ok, posting proposed templates to be gained through the class. The delay hasn't so much been 'Uhh, long hard work to get perfect', so much been time. These a are little ruff and are probab(definite)ly in need of editing.
Also, PM to insure your still around.


Templates for Swarmlord:

Good Levels- 7th , 13th, 20th

Template 1 Based on Infestation
Template 2 Based on Assimilation
Template 3 Based on Embrace

Template 1: Heart of the Swarm

Size and Type: Swarmlords who achieve this template maintain the same size and type they would otherwise have.

Hit Dice: As Swarmlord Class

Speed: No Change

Armor Class: +1 natural armour.

Attacks: All the natural attacks of the swarmlord count as being from a creature 1 size category larger.

Special Qualities: Swarmlords gain a permanent +1 untyped bonus to will saves.

Abilities: +2 Con, +2 Cha [A Swarmord becomes a hive for the power of the swarm, lending it a stronger force of personality. The body also hardens, partially to contain this power, partially in a inbuilt desire to protect ‘the queen’]

Feats: Swarmlords gain no additional feats.

LA: +0

Special: Should the Swarmlord become infested, the Swarmlord gains +1 Armour Class, +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, the type change of an infested, the evolution points of an infested instead of normal, and three automatic points in hive node, this is instead of the normal modifications due to being infested. Should they fail their will save and the infestor not have the gentle queen feat, the normal infested template is applied with the mindless stats.
Also, should the Swarmlord become infested, she is subject to no additional level adjustment from the template.
Both the Embraced and Assimilated templates apply the normal statistical bonuses. However the LA of either template is reduced by 1.


Template 2: Princess of the Swarm

Size and Type: Swarmlords who achieve this template maintain the same size and type they would otherwise have.

Hit Dice: As Swarmlord Class

Speed: No Change

Armor Class: +3 natural armour.

Attacks: All the natural attacks of the swarmlord count as being from a creature 1 size category larger.

Special Qualities: Swarmlords gain a permanent +2 untyped bonus to will saves.
Further, the range at which creatures with the hive mind rule are controlled by the Swarmlord increases to 15 feet/level. Also, creatures with the hive mind rule gain a +3 bonus to will saves instead of a +2 bonus should they be within this range. (This range bonus and bonus to will saves doesn’t extend to with/affected by the Hive Node evolution)

Abilities: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Int, +4 Cha [The Swarmlord manages to use some of it’s learning’s to self improve it’s body and mind, meanwhile the power of the swarm further manifests within the Swarmlord.]

Feats: Swarmlords gain the Queen Follows Subjects Understanding feat. Should the Swarmlord already have this feat, they may choose another of any feat normally available to them


LA: +0

Special: This template supersedes and replaces both the infested and Heart of the Swarm templates. However, it will not replace the loss of mental stats caused by infestation should this template be gained, not that it should be possible to continue progressing in levels of Swarmlord.
Should the Swarmlord become assimilated, the Swarmlord gains and additional +2 Armour Class, +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, the type change of an embraced, the evolution points of an embraced instead of normal, this is instead of the normal modifications due to being embraced. In addition, should the Swarmlord become embraced, it gains no additional level adjustment.
Should the Swarmlord become a Assimilated and be under the control of another Swarmlord, it has 3 free ranks in the Hive Node evolution.
The Embraced template supercedes this template, and all statistical bonuses of this template, however the Swarmlord still gains the free ranks in hide node should she be controlled by another swarmlord. Also, the LA of the Embraced template is reduced by 3.


Template 3: Queen of the Swarm

Size and Type: Swarmlords who gain this template undergo the type changes of a creature affected by the swarmlord template.

Hit Dice: As Swarmlord Class

Speed: No Change

Armor Class: +5 natural armour.

Attacks: All the natural attacks of the swarmlord count as being from a creature 2 size categories larger. In addition, the swarmlord can choose to gain either +2 natural attacks of any type, or can instead choose for their natural attacks to count as being from a creature 3 size catagories larger.

Special Qualities: Swarmlords gain a permanent +3 untyped bonus to will saves.
Further, the range at which creatures with the hive mind rule are controlled by the Swarmlord increases to 20 feet/level. Also, creatures with the hive mind rule gain a +4 bonus to will saves instead of a +2 bonus should they be within this range.
The Hive Node evolution now grants a control range of 15 feet/number of points in the Hive Node evolution.

Abilities: +4 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +4 Wis, +4 Int, +6 Cha [The Swarmlord uses it’s learning’s to self improve it’s body and mind, meanwhile the power of the swarm further manifests within the Swarmlord.]

Feats: Swarmlords gain the Like Mother, Like Daughter feat. Should the Swarmlord already have this feat, they may choose another of any feat normally available to them. In addition, the Swarmlord gains the Rapid Evolution feat.


LA: +0

Special: This template supersedes and replaces both the assimilated and Princess of the Swarm templates. Should the Swarmlord become assimilated, the Swarmlord replaced the Queen of the Swarm template with the Embraced template, and gains all the normal statistical benefits of a Embraced creature, with the exception that it does NOT gain two additional attacks, and retains the bonus feats and special qualities of the ‘Queen of the Swarm’ template. A Swarmlord gaining the Embraced template only gains +1 Level adjustment

Lix Lorn
2012-12-30, 08:15 AM
That's some pretty interesting stuff! I probably won't use it exactly as you have it, but I think I can use it.

Turalisj
2013-01-01, 10:55 AM
Wonder if you could do up an adaption for Pathfinder. Most of the DMs I know have pretty much stopped running 3.5. :smallsigh:

Lix Lorn
2013-01-01, 11:06 AM
I don't really play PF... I expect not much would change.

Erik Vale
2013-01-01, 03:09 PM
As far as I know, that would just be grouping the skills and dropping two skill points. Which should be pretty easy. As for changing abilities, the DM can nerd at will, and I don't think this class really needs to get more powerful. [Ignores notes that I gave her ideas for templates considering they were already being kicked around]

Lix Lorn
2013-01-01, 04:26 PM
Hmm. I'm sort of having second thoughts about the templates.

Reasoning;
The Swarmlord already has Adaptions and potentially Evolutions. Their physical changes really ought to be covered.
To this end, I'm considering making 'Swarmlord can use Evolution points' a base class feature, and describing the physical changes that are expected to happen (or at least specifying that they do) as levels progress.

Erik Vale
2013-01-02, 05:11 AM
Thats fine. However, balls still need kicking as to a capstone, and you have a empty ACF list.

Lix Lorn
2013-01-02, 01:30 PM
True on the capstone! THe ACF being empty doesn't bug me that much, as the class is very, very adaptable as is.

Aldurin
2013-01-02, 01:35 PM
True on the capstone! THe ACF being empty doesn't bug me that much, as the class is very, very adaptable as is.

Yeah, being able to throw evolutions on yourself is enough as it is, especially if you use mutable form to adapt to the situation.

Silva Stormrage
2013-01-03, 02:56 PM
For the enhanced ability evolution can you increase an ability score more than +5? Normally inherent bonuses can't go higher but it also usually mentions that fact so I wasn't sure what your intent was.

Aldurin
2013-01-03, 04:13 PM
Nice to see that the Alternate Type evolution is starting to be filled out more. I've got a proposal for the elemental type. Also is Alternate Type supposed to be swarmling-only? It might get weird if a swarmlord can use mutable form to switch to an ooze form at her convenience.

Alternate Type:
Elemental: Choose either Fire, Water(Cold), Earth(Acid), or Air(Electric) to be the swarmling's element. The swarmling loses the magical beast traits and gains elemental traits. The swarmling becomes immune to the chosen element and takes 1.5x damage from the opposite element (pairings are Fire/Water and Earth/Air for determining this). The swarmling's natural attacks deal additional energy damage of the chosen type, equal to the die size of their natural attack, additionally, element-specific evolutions like Burning Touch change to be the energy type of the swarmling. An elemental swarmling cannot use spells or powers with a subtype of their opposite element (ex: an earth swarmling cannot learn or cast Shocking Grasp, and a water swarmling cannot use Fireball).

Special: Water Swarmlings gain swim speed 30 ft automatically, and Air Swarmlings gain fly speed 40 ft (perfect) and lose their land speed. If an Earth Swarmling gains a burrow speed, it may spend 3 evolution points to gain Earth Glide. A Fire Swarmling may not gain a swim speed.

Lix Lorn
2013-01-03, 06:05 PM
Hmm. Not too bad, but I wouldn't like to define elementals so strictly. Besides, earth elementals have no link to acid.

Turalisj
2013-01-03, 06:07 PM
Earth element when used in DnD 3.5 usually connects to acid damage though.

Lix Lorn
2013-01-03, 06:13 PM
True, but that's always been dumb. :P

Turalisj
2013-01-03, 06:34 PM
So was Mengsk leaving Kerrigan on Tarsonis.....

Lix Lorn
2013-01-03, 06:38 PM
And look how well that turned out for him. :smalltongue:

Turalisj
2013-01-03, 06:42 PM
Have to stop myself here before I reveal spoilers from the ending of Wings of Liberty.

Lix Lorn
2013-01-03, 06:47 PM
I've beaten it and am desperately waiting for Heart of the Swarm. xD

Turalisj
2013-01-03, 06:50 PM
I couldn't tell....

You should make more Starcraft-inspired classes. Maybe a Zealot/Dark Templar one?

Lix Lorn
2013-01-03, 06:51 PM
Problem is, they'd pretty much just be a soulknife.

Turalisj
2013-01-03, 06:56 PM
Problem is, the soulknife sucks.

Lix Lorn
2013-01-03, 07:09 PM
Fortunately, I, and half the homebrewers in the world, have made a fix for it already. :smallwink:

bbkilla
2013-01-04, 07:45 AM
looks really cool!
but i dont know what are these evolution points, care to explain?
tnx
:smallsmile:

Lix Lorn
2013-01-04, 12:21 PM
Uh. They're used to upgrade Swarmlings.

drack
2013-01-04, 08:26 PM
swarming evolution points wording.
"A Swarmling does not lose evolution points when the Swarmlord loses Charisma."
Perhaps an exception should be added for temporary bonuses? :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2013-01-04, 08:36 PM
swarming evolution points wording.
"A Swarmling does not lose evolution points when the Swarmlord loses Charisma."
Perhaps an exception should be added for temporary bonuses? :smalltongue:
It was intended to defend long-term temporary bonuses, such as items. I'll think about a fix when I'm more awake.

drack
2013-01-04, 08:39 PM
just making sure that taking off my cloak of Cha won't give me more and more each time :smalltongue:

Also out of curiosity extra/enhanced natural attacks, and the special qualities sections are clusters of abilities to sink points into, or individuals? (makes a difference for the one/level cap on individual point investments)

Lix Lorn
2013-01-04, 08:47 PM
just making sure that taking off my cloak of Cha won't give me more and more each time :smalltongue:
It wouldn't do that anyway.
'Hey, I got a cloak of charisma! Bonus evolution points!'
'Awww, my cloak is gone. At least I keep the points.'
'Yay, my cloak! Now I'm allowed those points I still have again!'


Also out of curiosity extra/enhanced natural attacks, and the special qualities sections are clusters of abilities to sink points into, or individuals? (makes a difference for the one/level cap on individual point investments)
Each one has a seperate cap, IIRC

drack
2013-01-04, 08:57 PM
Ah, so that's how it's meant. :smallbiggrin:

Anywho read through it, and it's a rather nifty class, though personally I think it's probably strong enough before the psionics. (compare it to say a dread necromancer and consider the power that evolutions bring to the table as opposed to the benefit of the given limited spell section)

Thanks for the quick replies, can't really think of much else to give in terms of input beyond perhaps consideration on feats only being two points. (perhaps four or so such as not to drown out feat based classes)

Lix Lorn
2013-01-04, 09:03 PM
The Dread necro actually gets 9th level spells, though, which gives it a pretty huge boost. :smalltongue:

(Feat based classes are bad. ;P)

Aldurin
2013-01-04, 09:05 PM
Anywho read through it, and it's a rather nifty class, though personally I think it's probably strong enough before the psionics. (compare it to say a dread necromancer and consider the power that evolutions bring to the table as opposed to the benefit of the given limited spell section)

That's true, I personally think that this class is upper-end Tier 1, since having the secondary fallbacks of natural attacks AND psionics gives almost too many tools to this swiss army knife that's pregnant with smaller swiss army knives.

Lix Lorn
2013-01-04, 09:16 PM
I certainly hope not. While it has psionics, it is capped at 7th level.

vasharanpaladin
2013-01-04, 09:38 PM
That's true, I personally think that this class is upper-end Tier 1, since having the secondary fallbacks of natural attacks AND psionics gives almost too many tools to this swiss army knife that's pregnant with smaller swiss army knives.

Low T2 at highest. And that's assuming you're given free reign of your minions.

drack
2013-01-04, 09:49 PM
Well if you think of it the dread nec gets attack, minion buff, and minion creation/commanding from spells, and minion buffing/commanding from it's class features. This gives fewer but stronger minions, and allows the caster free reign of plenty of decent melee type abilities. I mean I've seen people eagerly taking classes with just evolution point stuff,and of a poorer selection then this (no I'm not talking about the evolutionist class, nor ozodrin)
These abilities already make for a competent melee combatant, and even capped at 7 psionics is much more versatile then a list capped at nine that has nothing but death spells. Not to mention psionics is kinda funky so even capping it at 7 they can metapsionic to nine at level 18. Add in the versatility of casting through spawn, and allowing spawn to go out patrolling with their own swarms, and you have an epic's wet dreams. :smalltongue:

As for feat based, perhaps, but that doesn't make feats any less valuable, as I've made many an epic chair that could have been twice as strong for each additional feat they got... :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2013-01-04, 10:00 PM
Psionics is far less versatile than spells, and while augmented powers are fine for raw power, they don't give you any more versatility. It is probably better than the Dread Necro, yes, which is a solid tier 3. I'd be surprised if this were a 2, but I guess it's possible.

drack
2013-01-04, 10:05 PM
I would probably place it at a low tier one with psionics, though I've never really seen the tier system as sensical since tier three characters are better then tier one... :smallconfused:

In either case Dread necromancers are still a common choice due to their power in their field, hence the comparison. If you had another class you would have preferred I compare it against... :smallconfused: druid perhaps?

Lix Lorn
2013-01-04, 10:12 PM
Please don't start a tier argument in my thread.

drack
2013-01-04, 10:15 PM
Not trying to, just that if my comments are being brushed off with comments of it not being tier one that it compares just as easily with them. :smallconfused:

Lix Lorn
2013-01-04, 10:18 PM
I disagreed with pretty much everything in that post, and can't really reply to it without starting a tier argument. And they tend to get threads locked.

drack
2013-01-04, 10:21 PM
Ah, my apologies then. :smallbiggrin:

Aldurin
2013-01-10, 02:19 AM
I'm looking at the embraced template, and if I'm reading this right then the person that has it then has the benefits of a swarmlord of her ECL, minus the manifesting, CHA to will saves, infestation/assimilation/embrace and Adaptions? Does this include the ability to make swarmlings, even if they choose not to have a level in swarmlord?

Lix Lorn
2013-01-10, 05:16 PM
You're reading it right, and yes they may.

zzuxon
2013-02-01, 04:36 PM
I really like this class. A lot. In fact, I'm making a few changes to a campaign setting I was already done with just to fit this in:smallsmile:.
Anyway, I reccommend you add an evolution that can let your swarmling be a mount.

Lix Lorn
2013-02-01, 04:41 PM
I really like this class. A lot. In fact, I'm making a few changes to a campaign setting I was already done with just to fit this in:smallsmile:.
Anyway, I reccommend you add an evolution that can let your swarmling be a mount.
thanks.
...am I missing something?
Buy an exotic saddle. Boost it to large. Get on the saddle. Done.

Aldurin
2013-02-06, 09:34 PM
For the Alternate Type: Humanoid evolution, would the Bonus HD evolution instead grant extra levels, or just RHD in humanoid? It's something I'm wondering about since I'm about to utilize that in a game I'm using this class in.

Erik Vale
2013-02-06, 10:09 PM
Most of the time you gain levels in Warrior, every level divisible by three instead nets you a class level of whatever you want.

I might submit some other types though, I've been thinking about it.

Qwertystop
2013-02-06, 10:09 PM
Oh, this thingy!
I saw it a while back (a month or two? Not sure), and thought it was cool. Then I lost it. Subscribing!

Lix Lorn
2013-02-06, 10:36 PM
For the Alternate Type: Humanoid evolution, would the Bonus HD evolution instead grant extra levels, or just RHD in humanoid? It's something I'm wondering about since I'm about to utilize that in a game I'm using this class in.
Levels, same as normal :smallsmile:


Oh, this thingy!
I saw it a while back (a month or two? Not sure), and thought it was cool. Then I lost it. Subscribing!
Heh, thanks.

inuyasha
2013-02-10, 08:32 PM
this is pretty awesome :D I like it...but I do have one question.

What if we just wanted to have swarmlings, infesteds, embraced, and others as just creatures, like in a dungeon or building. Could you come up with a system for individual CRs of swarmligns?

Lix Lorn
2013-02-10, 09:22 PM
CR is kinda broken anyway, so... not easily, no.
I'd recommend just adding effective levels of swarmlord, until the swarmling is powerful enough to be a balanced challenge for the party.

inuyasha
2013-02-10, 09:31 PM
hmm ok :) because like I said, Ive always been a big fan of this class from the moment I saw it, Im glad the bugs have been fixed and stuff :D. Im actually thinking of having a swarmlord NPC that has taken over the castle, it is full of creep, infested beings, and swarmlings :) thanks for the class

Lix Lorn
2013-02-10, 09:32 PM
Cool!
I hope you have fun!

Qwertystop
2013-02-10, 09:51 PM
I just realized, looking at Swarm Beyond:

I think there've been more "looked into the abyss until it looked back - and the abyss blinked first" sort of uses of that phrase than the normal sort that stops at the first half.

inuyasha
2013-02-10, 09:57 PM
yea and after I do it I will let you know how it goes :D

Draken
2013-02-10, 10:03 PM
Problem is, they'd pretty much just be a soulknife.


Problem is, the soulknife sucks.


Fortunately, I, and half the homebrewers in the world, have made a fix for it already. :smallwink:

Wizards of the Coast fixed the Soulknife on the very same book they released it!

It's called the Psychic Warrior.

Qwertystop
2013-02-10, 10:17 PM
Question regarding The Swarm Grows:

It says they share an evolution point pool but buy seperately. Does this mean that getting more Swarmlings means they'll all have to be weaker?

On another note, Resist. Wouldn't this fit into existing rules better if it was phrased as "DR X/-" (which is DR that blocks anything that doesn't just generally bypass all DR) and "{Energy} Resistance X" for every energy type (which would resist all energy)? Otherwise, it's completely unbypassable in any case I can think of. There's no effects that deal physical damage that say they bypass Energy Resistance, there's no effects that deal energy damage that say they bypass DR, and there's no effects that deal energy damage that say they bypass resistance to a different kind of energy. As written, for example, fire damage with Searing Spell wouldn't bypass Resist because Searing Spell doesn't bypass DR, Cold Resistance, Acid Resistance, Electricity Resistance, Sonic Resistance, or Force Resistance.

Also, it says "counts as Damage Resistance". AFAIK, DR actually stands for Damage Reduction. It's clear what is meant, but at the same time, it's technically a different term and you just KNOW someone would try to ruleslawyer even more immunity out of that. Or someone else would ruleslawyer that it does nothing because it's undefined.

radmelon
2013-02-10, 10:29 PM
Also, resist as it is is functionally identical to hardness. It might be more elegant to simply give hardness instead.

Aldurin
2013-02-10, 10:38 PM
Question regarding The Swarm Grows:

It says they share an evolution point pool but buy seperately. Does this mean that getting more Swarmlings means they'll all have to be weaker?

That's the main concept, but remember that swarmlings get a bonus pool equal to half of your swarmlord level multiplied by your CHA modifier. It can actually be more powerful to dump your entire main pool into making more swarmlings if you can get your charisma high enough to build them off of their bonus pools alone.

For Lix Lorn, this paragraph needs clarification. The contradictory parts are bolded. Does the swarmlord actually get its own bonus pool based on ability score, or is the bonus pool simply a third of its regular pool?


As a Swarmlord grows, she becomes closer to her swarm's ideal form. She gains bonus evolution points, just like those she gets for her swarmlings. She can spend these to increase her own abilities, exactly as if she were Swarmling. She may not choose evolutions that an Embraced could not take. She receives as many evolution points as one third of her total pool, rounded down. She does not gain bonus evolution points based on her ability scores.

Erik Vale
2013-02-11, 02:52 AM
I think that's ment to mean they are used in the same way. Proposed correction.


As a Swarmlord grows, she becomes closer to her swarm's ideal form. She gains bonus evolution points, justthat can be used like those she gets for her swarmlings. She can spend these to increase her own abilities, exactly as if she were Swarmling[Tuatology with the last bit]. She may not choose evolutions that an Embraced could not take. She receives as many evolution points as one third of her total pool, rounded down. She does not gain bonus evolution points based on her ability scores.

Lix Lorn
2013-02-11, 04:48 PM
Question regarding The Swarm Grows:

It says they share an evolution point pool but buy seperately. Does this mean that getting more Swarmlings means they'll all have to be weaker?
Yes, intended.


That's the main concept, but remember that swarmlings get a bonus pool equal to half of your swarmlord level multiplied by your CHA modifier. It can actually be more powerful to dump your entire main pool into making more swarmlings if you can get your charisma high enough to build them off of their bonus pools alone.
Also intended. xD


On another note, Resist. Wouldn't this fit into existing rules better if it was phrased as "DR X/-" (which is DR that blocks anything that doesn't just generally bypass all DR) and "{Energy} Resistance X" for every energy type (which would resist all energy)? Otherwise, it's completely unbypassable in any case I can think of. There's no effects that deal physical damage that say they bypass Energy Resistance, there's no effects that deal energy damage that say they bypass DR, and there's no effects that deal energy damage that say they bypass resistance to a different kind of energy. As written, for example, fire damage with Searing Spell wouldn't bypass Resist because Searing Spell doesn't bypass DR, Cold Resistance, Acid Resistance, Electricity Resistance, Sonic Resistance, or Force Resistance.

Also, it says "counts as Damage Resistance". AFAIK, DR actually stands for Damage Reduction. It's clear what is meant, but at the same time, it's technically a different term and you just KNOW someone would try to ruleslawyer even more immunity out of that. Or someone else would ruleslawyer that it does nothing because it's undefined.
My mistake on damage resistance, will edit that.
I'll also clarify that it's penetrated by effects that penetrate either.


For Lix Lorn, this paragraph needs clarification. The contradictory parts are bolded. Does the swarmlord actually get its own bonus pool based on ability score, or is the bonus pool simply a third of its regular pool?
The bonus pool is just a third of the normal pool. Will clarify.


I think that's meant to mean they are used in the same way. Proposed correction.
Will yoink. Thanks. xD

inuyasha
2013-02-11, 10:20 PM
when you say swarmlord evolution do you mean adaption?

Lix Lorn
2013-02-11, 10:44 PM
Where did I say it?

inuyasha
2013-02-11, 10:52 PM
under the rapid evolution feat

Lix Lorn
2013-02-11, 10:54 PM
Yes, it should. Thanks.

galan
2013-02-12, 03:04 PM
well, i wanted to say this class is amazing. i will play it asap.

problam is, i cant find many psionic powers that feel.. right for this class. any chance there will be an ACF that gives lesser psionic power and something in return?

Lix Lorn
2013-02-12, 03:33 PM
Hmm. That seems like a good idea, but I'm not sure what to replace it with.
(I'd recommend telepathy powers, mostly)

Erik Vale
2013-02-12, 04:36 PM
That's What I normally go for. Also think of the healing/biofeedback for swarmlords with distan't manifestation. Any stunning spells are also good [theres one in the SRD to induce helplessness] to assist in infestation.

inuyasha
2013-02-12, 04:38 PM
yeah I actually think that would make more sense because I dont think this should be a psionic class (other than the telepathy for controlling and communicating of course) but other than that I love this class

drack
2013-02-12, 04:50 PM
I'm also going to throw in that a little limiting on the spell versatility to fit the theme would probably balance it a bit better given that as it stands it has a lesser form of necromancy (swarmlings, ect), boosted to be as strong as the normal (through evolutions), and going from the equivalent of a full spell selection to a limited spell selection puts it more into the standard balance of such classes.

(hope this doesn't somehow kick start one of those tier argument thingies :smalltongue:)

Lix Lorn
2013-02-12, 05:26 PM
Well, it's based on Kerrigan from Starcraft, who is intensely psychic.
The main reason I didn't give it a limited power list is because I don't want to write out a list. They're limited to 7th level powers, which should be a major loss... although the mechanics of psionics may mitigate it slightly.

drack
2013-02-12, 05:39 PM
Yup, psioncs is like a specialized form of magic where it goes a few levels higher in power and has less versatility across the boards. (for instance mind blank being a bit lower), furthermore as I hear, it's the only casting system with a spell without saves or SR/PR that doesn't need to hit someone first. When you consider damage boost for PP spent, then this adds up. Furthermore having psionics and evolution pints both on the same ability score is typically a no-no, unless it's through a feat or the like...

Also, not sure if this will help, but if you look at psionic warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm), partial casting commonly ends at level 6 spells and with less PP if that's what you were going for.

Guess I'll also add (since I've never belied in letting dead dogs lie, being one who favors necromancy and the like) that I'd make feats more expensive... I mean it's classes like this that I use when I want to add a free reflection of all targeted effects (from spells to arrows to swords), and automatically counter any spell in sight...

Draken
2013-02-12, 05:51 PM
Sci-fi sources aside, it should be noted that for most of D&D, Hiveminds are acknowledged to whip up some supernatural powers, focusing into whatever is leading the hivemind (BoVD translates this into sorcerous spellcasting).

Anyway, a few formatting details now that I finally digested the whole thing.

1. I think Evolution Points should probably be listed in the main class table, instead of the swarmling advancement table. The list itself should also not be in the Swarmling entry, I think. But have a post all for itself.

2. The evolutions need a better format, I would suggest something along these lines:

Evolution Name
Targets: (which members of the swarm can evolve this: Swarmlord, Swarmlings, Infested, Assmilated, Embraced)
Prerequisites: I will be honest here. Most evolutions do zilch at level 1 and should probably be granted at higher levels for this simple fact. Also gives an extra sense of progression.
Benefit: What it does.

3. 'Resist' (under Ironscales) is pretty much Hardness.

Nothing further to add for now!

4.

Lix Lorn
2013-02-12, 05:55 PM
...no it's not. Psionics is weaker than magic. Or at least, less OP.
What's more, split ability scores are one of my least favourite things ever, and I'm not a big fan of the Psychic Warrior.

And infinite reflection is an epic feat, so you can't take it until you're epic anyway.


1. I think Evolution Points should probably be listed in the main class table, instead of the swarmling advancement table. The list itself should also not be in the Swarmling entry, I think. But have a post all for itself.
I'm not sure there is any room in the table, is the problem.


2. The evolutions need a better format, I would suggest something along these lines:

Evolution Name
Targets: (which members of the swarm can evolve this: Swarmlord, Swarmlings, Infested, Assmilated, Embraced)
Prerequisites: I will be honest here. Most evolutions do zilch at level 1 and should probably be granted at higher levels for this simple fact. Also gives an extra sense of progression.
Benefit: What it does.
This... kinda seems like a lot of effort for very, very little gain. What does this do to help?


3. 'Resist' (under Ironscales) is pretty much Hardness.
...huh. I suppose it is.
On the other hand, I have to look up hardness to know what it does, and it says it's only for objects.

Thanks!

inuyasha
2013-02-12, 06:15 PM
...no it's not. Psionics is weaker than magic. Or at least, less OP.

I miss old school psionics :smallfrown: I liked them when they were rare, not a base class, not a bunch of base classes, but just a rare freak role of the dice that got you uber powers to make heads explode...I miss the almighty gygax and his awesome D&D rules that were so much fun and made no sense :smallfrown:

drack
2013-02-12, 06:20 PM
...no it's not. Psionics is weaker than magic. Or at least, less OP.

In some ways yes, in others no. Psionics can be more useful or less depending on how they're used. Now someone who knows both systems by heart is apt to use magic in most cases as it covers a broader range of scenerioes, but this doesn't really make psionics weaker, it just means you need to force that type of scenario to pop up. Often people will choose psionics along with castings taking the perks such as longer range/better effect to spells from using more PP as needed, and using the attack spells that always do damage (the sonic and crystal ones) to attack, while using spells and magic to defend. Doesn't make the one that much weaker, just suited to another area.

What's more, split ability scores are one of my least favourite things ever, and I'm not a big fan of the Psychic Warrior.
yup, what is balance compared to free power ay. Yup, well at least it means more people love the brew, even if they are munchkins. :smallconfused:

And infinite reflection is an epic feat, so you can't take it until you're epic anyway.
Should we use a simpler version such as sixteen shots/turn? (I think that's around 10th level range... though it may be fifteenth something around there. There are plenty of feats to double the number of arrows you can shoot after all)

I miss old school psionics :smallfrown: I liked them when they were rare, not a base class, not a bunch of base classes, but just a rare freak role of the dice that got you uber powers to make heads explode...I miss the almighty gygax and his awesome D&D rules that were so much fun and made no sense :smallfrown:

yup, alas...

inuyasha
2013-02-12, 06:28 PM
oh and also, under the "this land is mine" adaption where you can create a creep tumor, I must ask, will you ever develop the ability to make spore and sunken colonies?

Lix Lorn
2013-02-12, 06:30 PM
In some ways yes, in others no. Psionics can be more useful or less depending on how they're used. Now someone who knows both systems by heart is apt to use magic in most cases as it covers a broader range of scenerioes, but this doesn't really make psionics weaker, it just means you need to force that type of scenario to pop up. Often people will choose psionics along with castings taking the perks such as longer range/better effect to spells from using more PP as needed, and using the attack spells that always do damage (the sonic and crystal ones) to attack, while using spells and magic to defend. Doesn't make the one that much weaker, just suited to another area.
I pretty much disagree entirely. Psionics are better at blasting. That's pretty much it.

Regardless, I nerfed their psionics slightly, since not getting higher level powers is no real problem when lower level ones can be augmented.


yup, what is balance compared to free power ay. Yup, well at least it means more people love the brew, even if they are munchkins. :smallconfused:
I never thought the Psychic Warrior was very interesting or all that powerful.


Should we use a simpler version such as sixteen shots/turn? (I think that's around 10th level range... though it may be fifteenth something around there. There are plenty of feats to double the number of arrows you can shoot after all)
I have no idea what you're talking about.


oh and also, under the "this land is mine" adaption where you can create a creep tumor, I must ask, will you ever develop the ability to make spore and sunken colonies?
...I would have to ask what they are. ^_^''

drack
2013-02-12, 06:46 PM
I pretty much disagree entirely. Psionics are better at blasting. That's pretty much it.

Regardless, I nerfed their psionics slightly, since not getting higher level powers is no real problem when lower level ones can be augmented.

Well blasting never hurts, but for instance they have an ability or two that bypasses mind blank which I don't really know spells to go through as easily.

I have no idea what you're talking about. archery feats.
I never thought the Psychic Warrior was very interesting or all that powerful.
I suppose, though on the other hand it had feats instead of minions and evolution bits... :smallconfused: