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DiscipleofBob
2012-08-23, 09:49 AM
""This hand of mine glows with an awesome POWER!

"My drill is the drill that will pierce the heavens!"

"Its burning grip tells me to defeat you!

"Just who the hell do you think I am?"

"Take this! My love, my anger, and all of my sorrow!"

"GIGA..."

"SHINING..."

"DRILL..."

"FINGER!"

"BREAKER!"



Okay, that's enough of that.

Gurren Lagann and its pilot(s) are known for their manly fighting spirit literally powering the thing to begin with. Lagann itself is nothing impressive, a small human-sized mech that Simone pilots. But it can combine with other mechs, which it does first to make Gurren Lagann for a regular-sized mech, soon after taking over an aircraft carrier, the moon, etcetera etcetera until it becomes the size of a galaxy.

For the purposes of this versus matchup, we're sticking with the mech-sized Gurren Lagann.

Shining Gundam is from the hit-or-miss G Gundam, which is usually a love or hate relationship. Not your typical Gundam at all, the mechs in G Gundam ALSO get a boost from fighting spirit, to the point where they glow yellow with power and are best wielded by martial artists.

That's right, basically Super Saiyan Gundams.

Domon Kasshu uses two Gundams in the series: Shining Gundam and Burning Gundam. Honestly, they're fairly similar, so for the purposes of this matchup either one is selectable (though not both. That'd be silly.)

Physics transfer over from one universe to another no matter the battleground. If it's reasonable that Domon's fighting spirit gives him access to spiral power, then he gets access to spiral power, and vice-versa.



Round 1:

Gurren Lagann (mech-size only) VS Shining/Burning Gundam.

Round 2:

Gurren Lagann gets infected with DG cells. Does this affect the outcome either way?

Round 3:

Lagann combines with Shining/Burning Gundam and Simone and Domon basically go on a increasingly difficult boss rush across the multiverse. Just how awesome are they?

Raimun
2012-08-23, 09:56 AM
There's only one factor that matters.

Whether or not Kamina is piloting Gurren Lagann. :smallcool:

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-23, 09:58 AM
There's only one factor to this fight.

Whether or not Kamina is piloting Gurren Lagann. :smallcool:

Let's say two separate rounds.

One where it's Simone and Kamina.

One with just Simone.

Both pre-timeskip of course.

tensai_oni
2012-08-23, 10:50 AM
On a basic level, Gurren Lagann has better potential than the God Gundam (I don't believe in dub names). Not saying the latter isn't broken, just the former is even more broken. The fight boils down to how well the pilot can utilize their unit's potential.


There's only one factor that matters.

Whether or not Kamina is piloting Gurren Lagann. :smallcool:

That's true.

Kamina would get his ass kicked by stupid bum-rushing while Domon pulls a counter-technique out of his own hindquarters. Simon actually fights smart so he'd have a chance. Especially post-timeskip Simon.

Kato
2012-08-23, 11:27 AM
Battle 1) Okay, for the first analysis I'll stick with the premise that TTGL gets spiral power and Domon does not. Lagann clearly has the advantage power wise because... well, spiral power. Domon would stand little chance unless they decide to limit their use and fight kind of fair. But all out Domon can't stand up against spiral power.
If neither has access to spiral power things get a lot fairer. Gurran Lagann still has superior raw power I'd say and separating both would be another Ace up their sleeve but Domonjust had much more experience and training. I'd give it to Domon but I don't see no chance on the other side.
Thirdly, if both have spiral power... two words: Spiral Nemesis. If they are serious enough. I guess they'd just have their fun.

2) Normally I'd say spiral power can purge them of the DG cells but if not than I'd say if they are infected they can't use spiral powers anymore so we are kind of back to scenario two above but with a more powerful Gurren Lagann. I'd still give it to Domon, he knows how to handle a DG spawn.

3) The universe is doomed. Or blessed.

Callos_DeTerran
2012-08-23, 11:55 AM
Actually, there is a difference between Shining Gundam and Burning Gundam, the Burning Gundam is a superior machine to the Shining Gundam and the Burning Finger is essentially a more powerful version of the Shining Finger. It's basically the upgraded model of the Shining Gundam so there's no reason for Domon to use the Shining Gundam instead of the Burning. Other then that, I have nothing to add to this conversation, I know nothing about TTGL and it's been forever since I've seen G Gundam.

Calemyr
2012-08-23, 12:58 PM
If Kamina is in charge, Domon wins. Kamina is raw badass and very awesome, but his grasp of tactics is minimal (well, it's actually pretty good, given the setting - feeling like you're awesome is a better powerup than any practical weapon). Domon's a bit more level headed and would find Kamina relatively easy to exploit. (If TTGL had more enemies with cool heads, Team Gurren would have been in deep crap.)

If Simone takes the lead, Domon is in trouble. Simone combines tactics, common sense, patient determination, and his own brand of quiet awesome into a potent brew. I wouldn't say Simone walks away with it, particularly because he's willing to use more co-pilots than Kamina (who only works with Simone). Who his co-pilot was would have a distinct effect on the outcome.

DG cells would be similar to Kamina in control - lots of power, but still lacking any sense or finesse. I'd still say Domon, just for his experience with such situations.

Of course, all three of them (Kamina, Simone, and Domon) have crippling psychological dependence on certain people, such as Domon's reliance on Rain. Depending on what you do to those people, the dynamics of any fight could vary immensely.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-23, 01:12 PM
+1 note that Burning Gundam is far superior than Shining Gundam, in both basic capabilities and in special attacks. Not to mention Domon's become much stronger by the time he's gotten to the Burning Gundam.

Random Trivia: It's rumored G-Gundam was the inspiration for Gurren Lagann....

I can't speak about Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, though, so I'm not much use in this scenario. However, I will note that everything from base Gurren up required Gurren to absorb other Gunmen, so he's totally cheating if he gets extra help and Domon has to fight alone. The winner of this fight would be the audience, if they survived watching the awesomeness.

DG Cells.... Gurren gains enhanced strength, endurance, and regeneration abilities, at the cost of a clouded mind of the pilot. Since the main abilities for the Gurren are based on Will Power, the physical buff wouldn't be enough to make this anything but a weakness, not to mention the Shining/Burning Gundam seem to be designed to destroy the Dark Gundam, and their attacks tend to annialate things with such cells easier than regular opponents. I'd be confident in siding with Burning Gundam on this one.

Burning Gurren Lagann? The epicness would be onpar with Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, easy. And the multiverse would be doomed. And it would be awesome.

dgnslyr
2012-08-23, 01:23 PM
I think Getter Robo is specifically the inspiration for TTGL, but TTGL really pays homage to super robot shows as a whole, including G Gundam.

Burning Lagann would be amazing beyond words, though. Is there any mecha series TTGL can't crossover with?

Calemyr
2012-08-23, 01:29 PM
I can't speak about Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, though, so I'm not much use in this scenario. However, I will note that everything from base Gurren up required Gurren to absorb other Gunmen, so he's totally cheating if he gets extra help and Domon has to fight alone. The winner of this fight would be the audience, if they survived watching the awesomeness.

The Lagann is not a very effective fighter in its own right, it simply brings out the potential of other Gunmen. It needs to have a main body to really pose a challenge. This match is between Gurren Lagann (Gurren + Lagann) and Burning Gundam, so no, it wouldn't be cheating. Besides, if we're taking Rain out of the picture Domon's gonna lose (Kamina's a much better berserker), so there's two people on both sides of this equation, but one of them on each side is currently being ignored.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-23, 01:44 PM
I think Getter Robo is specifically the inspiration for TTGL, but TTGL really pays homage to super robot shows as a whole, including G Gundam.

Point.


Burning Lagann would be amazing beyond words, though. Is there any mecha series TTGL can't crossover with?

Point.


The Lagann is not a very effective fighter in its own right, it simply brings out the potential of other Gunmen.

I suppose that would be thread, then.


It needs to have a main body to really pose a challenge. This match is between Gurren Lagann (Gurren + Lagann) and Burning Gundam, so no, it wouldn't be cheating.

While I'd love to argue this, or insist that if Gurren gets help then Domon should get help, the Op even clearly states that we're sticking with just Mech Sized Gurren Lagann and it's abilities.


Besides, if we're taking Rain out of the picture Domon's gonna lose

Objection! On what grounds is this claim made? If we're doing a 1v1 mech off, Domon's been seen on numerous occasions being able to fight and access his Super and Hyper Modes on his own strength.


(Kamina's a much better berserker)

Objection! Matter of opinion. Just because Domon uses Tranquil Fury in his strongest states doesn't make him any less of a berserker. Let their performances speak for themselves.


so there's two people on both sides of this equation, but one of them on each side is currently being ignored.

Honestly, I thought the Gurren Lagann required 2 pilots. :smallconfused:

Reverent-One
2012-08-23, 01:53 PM
While I'd love to argue this, or insist that if Gurren gets help then Domon should get help, the Op even clearly states that we're sticking with just Mech Sized Gurren Lagann and it's abilities.

Right, which means Gurren and Lagann fighting together isn't cheating, or one side getting help while the other doesn't.

Xondoure
2012-08-23, 01:58 PM
Right, which means Gurren and Lagann fighting together isn't cheating, or one side getting help while the other doesn't.

Exactly. Gurren is Simone's pod. Gurren Lagan means it's a full sized mech consisting of at least two parts.

tensai_oni
2012-08-23, 02:10 PM
I just realized.

Kamina makes Domon look like a level-headed and smart opponent in this fight. Domon "outsmarted by a horse and little kids" Kasshu.

What have you done.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-23, 02:21 PM
God Gundam and Domon Kasshu.

First off while Gurren Lagann has of course loads more potential it clearly has limits on how much it can exspress that without the appropriate platform. It needed to hijack new mecha to move up its scale or to tap beyond Simon's will, up to eating the Big Bang to reach breaking-lightspeed-to-even-move scale. So they remain to scale powerwise.

Also whether pre or post timeskip frankly Simon is a still a pretty terrible fighter. He brawls well enough and so forth, but IMHO never shows much in the way of technique or face all that varied fight conditions. Domon has to fight his way through matches with dozens of varied opponents some of whom are more skilled, comparable in power, or both. Domon has to advance beyond simply brawling into not merely being hot blooded but channeling that into tranquil fury that's both stronger and more controlled. At the end of the series really any point after he'd have God Gundam Domon is the much better fighter.

And since Simons piloted it himself post-timeskip I don't much care but if he gets a co-pilot then shouldn't Domon get Rain?

...

Oh and I think I'm going to assume the awesome was simply too much to hold in your minds but this cross over could put Master Asia and Lordgenome in the same room. Could any reality anywhere bear such a concentration of manliness?

Calemyr
2012-08-23, 02:24 PM
Objection!

Objection... Over-ruled. :smallbiggrin: Seriously, though, Domon never seemed that effective when he lost control. Tranquil fury, yes, but flat-out berserker, no. And Domon either folds like a cheap suit or goes berserker when Rain is removed from the equation. Except for the finale, or course, and it's really kinda poor form to put pre-timeskip TTGL vs endgame Gundam G, with all the psychological issues resolved for one side and in full swing for the other.

It's bad enough that you're giving Domon his end-game mech and limiting the other side to what amounts to their starting mech.


Honestly, I thought the Gurren Lagann required 2 pilots. :smallconfused:

It does. But we're focused on the dominant pilot of both mechs. The co-pilot for the Gundam is getting little attention (it's just who's dominant) and Rain is being largely ignored. Yet both of these individuals are incredibly influential on the outcome. That was my point.

Sith_Happens
2012-08-23, 03:07 PM
Is there any mecha series TTGL can't crossover with?

Um... Code Geass?:smallconfused: Countdown until proven wrong: 5... 4... 3...

The Glyphstone
2012-08-23, 03:10 PM
Is there any mecha series TTGL can't crossover with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BattleTech:_The_Animated_Series

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-23, 03:27 PM
Um... Code Geass?:smallconfused: Countdown until proven wrong: 5... 4... 3...

If it can cross with the father why not the daughter?

tensai_oni
2012-08-23, 03:34 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BattleTech:_The_Animated_Series

Happened in a LJRP. Only that was actual Battletech, not the (pretty bad) cartoon.


Um... Code Geass?:smallconfused: Countdown until proven wrong: 5... 4... 3...

Happened in Super Robot Wars. Hard to get more "official crossover" than that.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-23, 03:45 PM
Happened in a LJRP. Only that was actual Battletech, not the (pretty bad) cartoon.




...how did it turn out?

tensai_oni
2012-08-23, 08:04 PM
It worked. Of course, both setting were alternate universes to the "main" 'verse of the game so it's not that one was interloping on the other's turf.

Mando Knight
2012-08-23, 10:33 PM
Exactly. Gurren is Simone's pod. Gurren Lagan means it's a full sized mech consisting of at least two parts.

Lagann is Simon's pod. It's also the more important of the two.

Thing about distinguishing between post/pre-timeskip is, that doesn't matter as much as whether it's after Episodes 9 (where Kamina has the It-Was-His-Sled moment of 21st century Super Robot shows), 11 (where Simon realizes the meaning behind Kamina's bluster), or 13 (where Simon and Gurren Lagann... acquire the flight module). Which are all pre-timeskip. Maybe 15 as well, since that's probably the first instance where Simon sees that Spiral Power can work outside of Gurren Lagann.

Simon's copilot actually doesn't seem to do a whole lot themselves, since he's such a fountain of Spiral Power, excepting Kamina, who's pretty much the main pilot while he's in Gurren's chair.

Even by Episode 13, Simon's become pretty proficient with his drills and can brawl with the best of the Beastmen (by 15 he demolishes Viral like he was a mook). Assuming Domon gets sufficient skill with Spiral Power to use it, it could end up being a repeat of Lordgenome's brawl with Simon, which was more or less even... though Lordgenome wasn't called the Spiral King for nothing.

Devonix
2012-08-23, 10:52 PM
Objection... Over-ruled. :smallbiggrin: Seriously, though, Domon never seemed that effective when he lost control. Tranquil fury, yes, but flat-out berserker, no. And Domon either folds like a cheap suit or goes berserker when Rain is removed from the equation. Except for the finale, or course, and it's really kinda poor form to put pre-timeskip TTGL vs endgame Gundam G, with all the psychological issues resolved for one side and in full swing for the other.

It's bad enough that you're giving Domon his end-game mech and limiting the other side to what amounts to their starting mech.



It does. But we're focused on the dominant pilot of both mechs. The co-pilot for the Gundam is getting little attention (it's just who's dominant) and Rain is being largely ignored. Yet both of these individuals are incredibly influential on the outcome. That was my point.


Nope Gurren Lagann is perfectly capable of functioning with only a pilot in Lagann. As is what happened when Simon fought Viral when Yoko was injured and not in the co ckpit and when Simon fought the Mugan for the first time post timeskip.

dgnslyr
2012-08-24, 03:07 AM
Um... Code Geass?:smallconfused: Countdown until proven wrong: 5... 4... 3...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BattleTech:_The_Animated_Series

Yeah, I should have probably specified super robot show, because real robot shows still operate under the premise that the laws of physics are reasonably intact, barring the square-cube law.

There is, however, the Guren from Code Geass. Maybe a terrible mistake of miscommunication might have some hilarious consequence? Going by her Super Robot Wars depiction, she is a super robot pilot trapped in a real robot machine, so that could be pretty interesting.

tensai_oni
2012-08-24, 10:15 AM
The Guren has a nuclear shining finger. This is because Kallen is Domon's daughter. Yes, the very Domon who is discussed in this VS thread.

Also, Code Geass is a real robot show only in S1. S2 goes straight into "screw physics" super robot territory.

Of course it doesn't matter because any differences between real and super robots are only in your head. The two are really one and the same.

Kato
2012-08-25, 05:08 AM
Also, Code Geass is a real robot show only in S1. S2 goes straight into "screw physics" super robot territory.

Of course it doesn't matter because any differences between real and super robots are only in your head. The two are really one and the same.

You're kidding, right? Just because a real mecha is implausible on a engineering level doesn't mean it is the same as a super robot that transforms into a galaxy sized being of pure energy on a whim (if that's your reasoning)
Real Robot and Super robot are also most of the time very different in tone and topics. The two are clearly not the same even if there is an overlap.

Kitten Champion
2012-08-25, 05:20 AM
Gurren Lagann

Rational arguments are irrelevant.

tensai_oni
2012-08-25, 09:16 AM
You're kidding, right?

No, I'm serious.

What defining characteristic(s) qualifies whether a machine is a real or a super robot? Please give me examples. Because while it's easy to point at VOTOMs and say "this is obviously more realistic than Gurren Lagann", which is true - finding any serious qualification on what constitutes a super robot, or a real robot, is impossible.

Kitten Champion
2012-08-25, 10:32 AM
No, I'm serious.

What defining characteristic(s) qualifies whether a machine is a real or a super robot? Please give me examples. Because while it's easy to point at VOTOMs and say "this is obviously more realistic than Gurren Lagann", which is true - finding any serious qualification on what constitutes a super robot, or a real robot, is impossible.

Do the characters shout their special attacks?


You might as well claim there's no difference between high and low fantasy, because they both involve the supernatural. You'd be right, but only insofar as you narrow your perspective to the similarities. There are some fuzzy cases, but usually the levels at which the machines are explained as plausible scientifically and depicted as mere tools, which are manufactured, require repair, and have technically limitations, determines the genera.

Tengu_temp
2012-08-25, 10:32 AM
Gurren Lagann

Rational arguments are irrelevant.

That's not how vs threads work. Good night.

tensai_oni
2012-08-25, 10:46 AM
Do the characters shout their special attacks?


You might as well claim there's no difference between high and low fantasy, because they both involve the supernatural. You'd be right, but only insofar as you narrow your perspective to the similarities. There are some fuzzy cases, but usually the levels at which the machines are explained as plausible scientifically and depicted as mere tools, which are manufactured, require repair, and have technically limitations, determines the genera.

Gundam pilots often yell out names of their attacks ("Fin Funnel!", "Satellite Cannon, fire!"). Gundams, as opposed to standard mobile suits, are rarely if ever mass produced, often they are unique machines, and even plot shields aside there are cases when they pull off new abilities out of nowhere - Turn A Gundam springs to mind. Equipped with working N-Jammer Cancellers, the SEED Gundams' output is theoretically unlimited.

Are Gundams super robots?

Both Mazinger Z and Getter Robo are manufactured and require repairs if damage was done - in fact, mystical machines (Raideen) or self-repairing ones (Gurren Lagann) are rare in the genre. It's cleary stated what Mazinger Z can do and what it cannot, and in its array of powers is not extraordinary compared to many other mecha. As for Getter, it has been mass produced. And the mass produced copies are as good as the original.

Are Mazinger Z and Getter Robo real robots?

It's rare, so rare that I cannot give you any examples out of my head, to show a series where unique, powerful machines (as opposed to crappy mass-produced mooks) are treated like only a tool. A certain degree of mythicization ("It's a Gundam! We're doomed!") is always present, and the pilot often talks to or feels a bond with their machine.

Kris Strife
2012-08-25, 12:14 PM
Gundam pilots often yell out names of their attacks ("Fin Funnel!", "Satellite Cannon, fire!"). Gundams, as opposed to standard mobile suits, are rarely if ever mass produced, often they are unique machines, and even plot shields aside there are cases when they pull off new abilities out of nowhere - Turn A Gundam springs to mind. Equipped with working N-Jammer Cancellers, the SEED Gundams' output is theoretically unlimited.

Are Gundams super robots?

Both Mazinger Z and Getter Robo are manufactured and require repairs if damage was done - in fact, mystical machines (Raideen) or self-repairing ones (Gurren Lagann) are rare in the genre. It's cleary stated what Mazinger Z can do and what it cannot, and in its array of powers is not extraordinary compared to many other mecha. As for Getter, it has been mass produced. And the mass produced copies are as good as the original.

Are Mazinger Z and Getter Robo real robots?

It's rare, so rare that I cannot give you any examples out of my head, to show a series where unique, powerful machines (as opposed to crappy mass-produced mooks) are treated like only a tool. A certain degree of mythicization ("It's a Gundam! We're doomed!") is always present, and the pilot often talks to or feels a bond with their machine.

Turn A and SEED are Super Robot, I'd argue that Zeta and ZZ are Super Robot (and if not, Fin Funnels are activated by psychic commands, and saying it might be used to help the pilot focus properly), and the Satellite Cannon, if it's what I'm thinking it is, is not actually part of the machine at all and it has either a voice activated control, you're telling someone else to fire it, or it has enough area of effect you might want to tell your allies you're doing it so they can get out of the way. :smalltongue:

Also, Gurren Lagann, isn't actually self repairing. Leeron complains about having to do repairs to it on a number of occasions. Spiral Energy just provides temporary repairs when they combine, probably related to the fact that Gurren's arms and legs double in length at the time. :smalltongue:

Lastly, I only want to weigh in on the team up. They go undefeated until they encounter Coop in Megas, who through some random button presses winds up fusing all three mechas together, at which point the rampage resumes. :smallbiggrin:

Kitten Champion
2012-08-25, 12:18 PM
That's not how vs threads work. Good night.

You need limitations for a competition to make any sense, TTGL doesn't have any by design.


Gundam pilots often yell out names of their attacks ("Fin Funnel!", "Satellite Cannon, fire!"). Gundams, as opposed to standard mobile suits, are rarely if ever mass produced, often they are unique machines, and even plot shields aside there are cases when they pull off new abilities out of nowhere - Turn A Gundam springs to mind. Equipped with working N-Jammer Cancellers, the SEED Gundams' output is theoretically unlimited.

Are Gundams super robots?

Both Mazinger Z and Getter Robo are manufactured and require repairs if damage was done - in fact, mystical machines (Raideen) or self-repairing ones (Gurren Lagann) are rare in the genre. It's cleary stated what Mazinger Z can do and what it cannot, and in its array of powers is not extraordinary compared to many other mecha. As for Getter, it has been mass produced. And the mass produced copies are as good as the original.

Are Mazinger Z and Getter Robo real robots?

It's rare, so rare that I cannot give you any examples out of my head, to show a series where unique, powerful machines (as opposed to crappy mass-produced mooks) are treated like only a tool. A certain degree of mythicization ("It's a Gundam! We're doomed!") is always present, and the pilot often talks to or feels a bond with their machine.


You're right, there is a degree of fuzziness, but there's also a wider perspective. The level of detail most of the Gundam franchise afford their mobile suits is more in keeping with realism than not. That pilots can do super-charged psychic attacks is true too, but they balance this off as inherently atypical in the setting. Just as Gundams are often destroyed, retooled, outdated, and later mass produced in the UC universe -- there is a certain degree of rule-of-cool regarding all mecha that makes the protagonist super-special-awesome but generally they attempt to emulate the feeling of real warfare.

The capacity to differentiate super-from-real based on the available tropes of the anime does exist in most cases. TTGL functions on magic and manliness as far as the series is concerned, it may give a passing nod or two to science, but it's truly unimportant.

Tengu_temp
2012-08-25, 01:06 PM
You need limitations for a competition to make any sense, TTGL doesn't have any by design.

Good that we stick to the normal-sized Gurren Lagann here then, huh? Seriously, it says so right in the OP. And no, TTGL can do a lot, but it's still limited. It's not the ultimate apex of mecha power either, there are even more absurdly powerful robots out there.

tensai_oni
2012-08-25, 01:24 PM
You're right, there is a degree of fuzziness, but there's also a wider perspective. The level of detail most of the Gundam franchise afford their mobile suits is more in keeping with realism than not. That pilots can do super-charged psychic attacks is true too, but they balance this off as inherently atypical in the setting. Just as Gundams are often destroyed, retooled, outdated, and later mass produced in the UC universe -- there is a certain degree of rule-of-cool regarding all mecha that makes the protagonist super-special-awesome but generally they attempt to emulate the feeling of real warfare.

You just described many "super robot" shows as well. They often have plausibly depicted warfare (or whatever else is the focus of the show), just with super-powerful elements, that is the titular mecha and its antagonists. Getter Robo, Big O, Gunbuster, many more.


The capacity to differentiate super-from-real based on the available tropes of the anime does exist in most cases. TTGL functions on magic and manliness as far as the series is concerned, it may give a passing nod or two to science, but it's truly unimportant.

The tropes in question being? Once again, I ask you to give me qualifications that let us find the difference between Supers and Reals. Sure you can point a finger at a series and say "this feels like a super robot show". But if we want official definitions, we need something better than that.

Also I agree Gurren Lagann has no roots in science, and its only rule is that there are no rules and courage will always win. But most so-called super robot shows are more consistent than that. As consistent as real robot shows.

Xondoure
2012-08-25, 01:36 PM
If both sides get spiral power, then it's simply a question of who has more potential. And well, that question is easily answered. Go beyond the impossible and kick reason to the curb! Just who the hell do you think we are?!

Drascin
2012-08-25, 01:37 PM
That's not how vs threads work. Good night.

Actually, that is precisely how versus threads work. We just tend to disguise it :smalltongue:.

tensai_oni
2012-08-25, 01:41 PM
If both sides get spiral power, then it's simply a question of who has more potential. And well, that question is easily answered. Go beyond the impossible and kick reason to the curb! Just who the hell do you think we are?!

Of course, if you assume Gurren Lagann's cosmology to be the only working one in a "Gurren Lagann vs X" thread, TTGL will win. Just like Warhammer 40k's cosmology in a "wh40k vs X" thread will make Warhammer win.

You have to mix both settings, or make the fight take place in a neutral ground.

tl;dr version: Just because Gurren Lagann won each fight due to narrative causality doesn't mean the same thing will happen here.

Kitten Champion
2012-08-25, 02:01 PM
Good that we stick to the normal-sized Gurren Lagann here then, huh? Seriously, it says so right in the OP. And no, TTGL can do a lot, but it's still limited. It's not the ultimate apex of mecha power either, there are even more absurdly powerful robots out there.

Not the mecha, the series -- the whole premise of TTGL is that being a determined badass protagonist makes logical limitations laughable. It's their slogan.


You just described many "super robot" shows as well. They often have plausibly depicted warfare (or whatever else is the focus of the show), just with super-powerful elements, that is the titular mecha and its antagonists. Getter Robo, Big O, Gunbuster, many more.

The tropes in question being? Once again, I ask you to give me qualifications that let us find the difference between Supers and Reals. Sure you can point a finger at a series and say "this feels like a super robot show". But if we want official definitions, we need something better than that.

Also I agree Gurren Lagann has no roots in science, and its only rule is that there are no rules and courage will always win. But most so-called super robot shows are more consistent than that. As consistent as real robot shows.

You want a singular definition when all genre are subjective creations? Still, the fact that you point to those shows and know that they're trying to be Super should be some indication that you know the tropes.

Anyways, here's Tropes and Idioms definition, as they've watched more mecha than I.



Real Robot Genre
aka: Real Robot
There's no way they can lose now in this war.
CAUTION: Large feet required to evenly disperse weight in a fantasy cartoon environment.
—Nidaramtells it like it is.
A genre of Humongous Mecha with a gritty, hard-Sci Fi take on the concept of literal Mechanized Infantry. Their plot lines tend to overlap considerably with most other kinds of Military Science Fiction.
Real robots are usually designed and manufactured by the military or by corporations, as opposed to the mad scientists/nutty professors who crank out Super Robots. In addition, while Super robots are usually piloted by the professor's nephew or some other Boy of Destiny, the pilots of Real robots tend to be military personnel or mercenaries contracted out from some wing of the military/industrial complex. While Super robots can be repaired with Hot Blood or The Power of Friendship, repairs on Real robots tend to be a time consuming and costly affair.
While a Real Robot pilot may have special powers, they don't require them to pilot the mecha, unless the mecha makes use of very special equipment — and even then, in nearly all cases, the mech can be piloted by somebody else with the same ability, or even without that ability, who will simply be unable to use the special equipment. Real Robot series tend towards the themes of "War Is Hell" or "We're all alike, if only we could sit down and talk to one another".
Real Robots are very often damaged, even destroyed during the series, and in many cases, main characters get killed in rather pointless ways... just like in a real war. A Real Robot doesn't require being made with current technology, but does require a relatively well-tested, "hard science" aspect at its core — something with properties which are very well defined in scope and limitations.
Real Robot series tend more towards "cynicism" on the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism. If they're computer games, they tend to opt toward more "realistic" controls using as much extra input hardware as they can get their players to buy, sometimes even making their own.
The distinguishing trait between Real Robots and Super Robots is whether the mech is seen as a tool or a vehicle: a Super Robot acts like a tool, in that its a focal point for the pilot, who supplies the skill, willpower and sometimes power; a Real Robot in contrast acts like a vehicle, it has greater power, speed, mobility or defense than the pilot, who serves as the equivalent of higher brain functions.
The expression originally came from "Real Robot Line", a term used by Sunrise in the 80s to promote their Gundam and Gundam-like animes during the decade. It became popularized in the West thanks to Super Robot Wars using Real Robot and Super Robot in an attempt to distinguish Mazinger Z and Mobile Suit Gundam units. Super Robot Wars OG series later define their original mechas that Super Robots are designed for a specified reason and are usually ready to fight against many opponents while Real Robots are designed to excel in common situations and in groups.
Contrast Super Robot and also see Mini Mecha, Spider Tank, and Walking Tank.

The problem when it's broken down, is that Super Robots are getting pretty grimdark as well. That and anime in general is trope conscious and plays with everything.

Here's Super-Robot.



The counterpoint to a Real Robot series (Or rather, Real Robots are the counterpoint to this), a fantastic Super Hero-like form of Humongous Mecha series.
The chances of the series being a Super Robot series rises exponentially with each item present. This, of course, doesn't apply to total parody or gag series, such as SD Gundam.
Note that in general the longer a Real Robot series runs, the higher the chance that the protagonist's mecha will start to display Super Robot traits. If this is the Grand Finale the odds are doubled.
Super Robot shows are typically personified by "Love/Courage/Compassion/Friendship/Righteous-Anger/Insert-Positive-Emotion-Here Conquers All", and almost always have at least one character that is Hot Blooded, though there are certain notable exceptions... mostly those directed by Yoshiyuki "Kill 'em All" Tomino, to whom anyone can die is less a possibility than a life philosophy (...or at least it used to be). They also typically follow the Monster of the Week format, especially in older shows, though as always there are exceptions. Super Robots tend towards idealism on the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism.

Tengu_temp
2012-08-25, 02:08 PM
Not the mecha, the series -- the whole premise of TTGL is that being a determined badass protagonist makes logical limitations laughable. It's their slogan.


All that means in context of this vs thread is that if you're a determined badass as well, you have a fighting chance as well. And Domon certainly is one.

You should base this argument on what Gurren Lagann is shown to be capable of doing in its own show.

tensai_oni
2012-08-25, 02:18 PM
Yes, I know what the terms "super robot" and "real robot" are supposed to mean. But my point is, if you look at the definitions closely, they start to fall apart.

If you look at them from a storyteller's point of view, the same kind of story that has a "super robot" in it can work the same if it has a "real robot". Or the opposite. There are rare exceptions (once again, Gurren Lagann - and VOTOMs for the opposite), but they are so rare that by themselves, they do not build a genre.

So if we cannot agree on a definition from a storytelling, OOC perspective, what about the in-universe IC one? Here, the definitions will not work as well. No matter what we take as a measuring point - "real robots are mass-produced, super robots are unique", or "super robots are sentient", you will always find enough exceptions to the rule for it not to be the rule at all.

TVTropes' definition is very flawed. If we go with it, stuff like Dancougar is a real robot show (military, war is hell, pilots do not have special abilities, must be repaired on its own, people die). And the Super Robot definition looks written by someone who watched only Gurren Lagann and thought everything else is similar to it. Scepticism and grimdark have been with the mecha genre since its beginning - with Tetsujin 28 and the Mazinger Z manga, not even mentioning later (but still 70s) titles like Zambot 3. And "Insert emotion here triumphs all" bullcrap was rarely present. As a matter of fact, UNDERSTANDING (where the main character's pure intentions cause the enemy to yield to him) is a meme from Gundam, the supposedly Real Robot franchise.

Kitten Champion
2012-08-25, 03:21 PM
All that means in context of this vs thread is that if you're a determined badass as well, you have a fighting chance as well. And Domon certainly is one.

You should base this argument on what Gurren Lagann is shown to be capable of doing in its own show.

That's the problem I'm having, it's shown being capable of anything so long as the physics and the laws of probability all bend to the will of the pilot. As far as hard science fiction is concerned, this is wet paper. G-Gundam, while fantastic, tried for a semblance of balance or... something.



Yes, I know what the terms "super robot" and "real robot" are supposed to mean. But my point is, if you look at the definitions closely, they start to fall apart.

If you look at them from a storyteller's point of view, the same kind of story that has a "super robot" in it can work the same if it has a "real robot". Or the opposite. There are rare exceptions (once again, Gurren Lagann - and VOTOMs for the opposite), but they are so rare that by themselves, they do not build a genre.

So if we cannot agree on a definition from a storytelling, OOC perspective, what about the in-universe IC one? Here, the definitions will not work as well. No matter what we take as a measuring point - "real robots are mass-produced, super robots are unique", or "super robots are sentient", you will always find enough exceptions to the rule for it not to be the rule at all.

TVTropes' definition is very flawed. If we go with it, stuff like Dancougar is a real robot show (military, war is hell, pilots do not have special abilities, must be repaired on its own, people die). And the Super Robot definition looks written by someone who watched only Gurren Lagann and thought everything else is similar to it. Scepticism and grimdark have been with the mecha genre since its beginning - with Tetsujin 28 and the Mazinger Z manga, not even mentioning later (but still 70s) titles like Zambot 3. And "Insert emotion here triumphs all" bullcrap was rarely present. As a matter of fact, UNDERSTANDING (where the main character's pure intentions cause the enemy to yield to him) is a meme from Gundam, the supposedly Real Robot franchise.

Real and Super are sub-genera of mecha, logically they share the same tropes. They've also been around and working in the same general vicinity for long enough that you'll find examples which fit either, neither, one or the other better. The number of modern genera-subversions in all anime is fairly substantial.

The problem you seem to be having is the suggestion that genera are neatly established in anyway, and that if nothing is essential to all of one than it's irrelevant. I would say you look at the overall production, and see where it leans as far as the artistic intentions of the creators. They usually come down more heavily on some of the tropes from one genera over the other, or every other related genera. I get your argument and agree to a degree. It's just, you're going to find problems finding perfect definitions of what work fits any genera it's supposed to be in, but sufficiently applicable I believe, does exists.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-25, 05:05 PM
I'm sorry but what exactly is the trouble with distinguishing between real robot and super robot?

Either its one or the other, I doubt many examples are 100% pure but they are there. Evangelion is still super robot even though it has elements of realism in it like the clearly outlined hyper-ridiculous costs of the machine and the massive logistical support they need, pointing out what a super robot would probably require if one actually existed is part of the point but doesn't make it a real robot show. On the other end Code Geass never leaves real robot despite the ridiculous heights it get to compared to its starting point, as everything lacks exclusivity and you see that. A Lancelot exclusive ability becomes mook standard in R2, that's the very core of a real robot approach right there.

Having nuance doesn't make the definitions irrelevant though.

....

Now then back on topic with a super robot and a robot built to channel super martial arts, both piloted by masters of being hot-blooded... I'm going to bet on the guy with the broader range of opponents fought and who actually had to train and so forth over a guy that just has to become a semi-decent brawler.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-08-25, 07:05 PM
Oh look.

It's this thread again.

Tengu_temp
2012-08-25, 07:19 PM
That's the problem I'm having, it's shown being capable of anything so long as the physics and the laws of probability all bend to the will of the pilot. As far as hard science fiction is concerned, this is wet paper. G-Gundam, while fantastic, tried for a semblance of balance or... something.

Actually, no. Those is all the abilities Gurren Lagann used during the show:
1. A wide range of drill- and sunglasses-themed attacks.
2. Turning a flying Ganmen into its Scrander.
3. One instance of teleportation during a crysis situation.
Anything beyond that is just a matter of speculation without any base in the actual show, and should not become a part of the discussion. Unless there's something else that was actually shown and that I missed.

By the way, have you seen G Gundam? It gets really ridiculous at times.


Oh look.

It's this thread again.

Wasn't it Getter Emperor vs WH40K last time?

Mando Knight
2012-08-25, 08:08 PM
Actually, no. Those is all the abilities Gurren Lagann used during the show:
1. A wide range of drill- and sunglasses-themed attacks.
2. Turning a flying Ganmen into its Scrander.
3. One instance of teleportation during a crysis situation.
Anything beyond that is just a matter of speculation without any base in the actual show, and should not become a part of the discussion. Unless there's something else that was actually shown and that I missed.

The drills are fairly versatile, though anything beyond "attack" and "assimilate" are mostly limited to Arc Gurren Lagann and up.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-25, 08:08 PM
Late response is late.


Right, which means Gurren and Lagann fighting together isn't cheating, or one side getting help while the other doesn't.


Exactly. Gurren is Simone's pod. Gurren Lagan means it's a full sized mech consisting of at least two parts.

Considering the contest calls to fight Gurren Lagann, not just Gurren or not just Lagann, but specifically Gurren Lagann, and notedbly only Gurren Lagann, not Super Gurren Lagann or Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, I'm not sure what's being confused.

..... although that statement confused me.

Of course Gurren and Lagann are working together, otherwise they wouldn't be Gurren Lagann. Heck, throwing in the gunmen update that give the Gurren Lagann wings isn't particularly unfair, since it's still the same class of mech.

I'm saying no to the Arc Gurren Lagann (ie Gurren Lagann + Battle Cruiser), the Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann (ie the above + a ship the size of the moon), the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (ie big enough that galaxies are comparable to it's atoms), and the Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (ie big enough that I can't actually describe it without being sacreligious).

Or am I being mistaken somewhere? Because to me, it stoped being fair, or even possible to measure such a fight, about the point where you had a mech the size of Unicron and the team effort to fuel the dang thing vs 1 mobile suit. Though, I'd be willing to pit a fight between the Battle Cruiser Team vs the SHuffle Alliance and it's supporters.


Objection... Over-ruled. :smallbiggrin:

You can't just say that without proof...


Seriously, though, Domon never seemed that effective when he lost control. Tranquil fury, yes, but flat-out berserker, no.

I may take this as a challenge to rewatch G-Gundam again, but I don't ever remember Domon's Berserker State losing to anyone... I think he's tied with a few people, but never lost.

I don't think I remember Domon ever losing, actually. All he had to do was activate his Glowing Finger / Super Mode / Hyper Mode / Sekeiha Tenkyoken and the match was pretty much his.


And Domon either folds like a cheap suit or goes berserker when Rain is removed from the equation.

Again, I might need to rewatch the series, but it really wasn't until the later episodes that Rain really factored into any of his fights. She helped do maintenence on his suits and such, and was kidnapped a few times, but in the actual battle, I don't remember him having too much issue until he actually had to fight with her on the opposing side. Be her temporarally turn-coat or being used to fuel the Dark Gundam.


Except for the finale, or course, and it's really kinda poor form to put pre-timeskip TTGL vs endgame Gundam G, with all the psychological issues resolved for one side and in full swing for the other.

I really do need to watch both series again, actually. Domon seemed to become -more- psychologically complex approaching the end game, not less. And I wasn't immediately aware of the psychological issues Simon and Viral/Kamina had.

Maybe this competition can't be had then. By the time one side is apparently capable of fighting, it's already recieved such massive story breaker power ups that the two are in different power weight -education systems-, let alone classes.


It's bad enough that you're giving Domon his end-game mech and limiting the other side to what amounts to their starting mech.

It seems like it'd be signantly worse form for a fight to have a mobile suit the size of a building be forced to fight a being so incongruous that it dwarfs your -universe-. My normal base line for how broken something is is somewhere on average of Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta, minimum. And even he was only strong enough to be able to blow up planets. The advanced forms of the Gurren Lagann are capable of causing multiple Big Bangs as the side affects of it's attacks. I really can't think of any series off of the top of my head that beats being big enough that your toenail is larger than the Milky Way, and that reality completely folds underneath your will to win.

I'd meet your arguement by piting just Shining Gundam vs Gurren Lagann, then.


It does. But we're focused on the dominant pilot of both mechs. The co-pilot for the Gundam is getting little attention (it's just who's dominant) and Rain is being largely ignored. Yet both of these individuals are incredibly influential on the outcome. That was my point.

Rain was never Domon's co-pilot, or am I -really- off on that series? Well, the season finale, but that was a bit of a special case, if I remember right. I'm still not really seeing your point about it, or was the ... 2nd part, if I'm counting right, of your response supposed to be Gurren, not Gundam?

Forum Explorer
2012-08-25, 10:42 PM
Actually, no. Those is all the abilities Gurren Lagann used during the show:
1. A wide range of drill- and sunglasses-themed attacks.
2. Turning a flying Ganmen into its Scrander.
3. One instance of teleportation during a crysis situation.
Anything beyond that is just a matter of speculation without any base in the actual show, and should not become a part of the discussion. Unless there's something else that was actually shown and that I missed.

By the way, have you seen G Gundam? It gets really ridiculous at times.



Wasn't it Getter Emperor vs WH40K last time?

You missed the ability to temporarily repair itself during battle.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-08-25, 11:50 PM
Now I want a series where, in the midst of the Rebellion against Britannia, Simon shows up, overthrows Britannia all by himself, and establishes a new government free from murky Black and Gray Morality. :smallwink:

Kris Strife
2012-08-26, 02:04 AM
Now I want a series where, in the midst of the Rebellion against Britannia, Simon shows up, overthrows Britannia all by himself, and establishes a new government free from murky Black and Gray Morality. :smallwink:

And brings Nia along with him? :smallbiggrin:

maximus25
2012-08-26, 02:15 AM
Couldn't Lagann just toss Gurren at the Shining/Burning Gundam and assimilate it?

Happened plenty of times in TTGL, S/B Gundam has no defense against it, Domon would probably die since he feels everything the Gundam feels due to his suit and it's been shown that Gurren shoots drills into every part of the mech it's assimilating.

If he can stop that, his only real attacking is burning finger/shining finger, both of which count on being able to hit and destroy the head. Gurren Lagann is two seperate bots, so Lagann could continue fighting on without a head, and that's Domon's trump card down.

Then it's down to his martial arts against an almost limitless amount of drills, and I don't see that going too well.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-26, 02:22 AM
Couldn't Lagann just toss Gurren at the Shining/Burning Gundam and assimilate it?

Assuming Domon doesn't just, you know, Dodge. Although I've never seen the assimilation process, so I can't really speak.


If he can stop that, his only real attacking is burning finger/shining finger, both of which count on being able to hit and destroy the head. Gurren Lagann is two seperate bots, so Lagann could continue fighting on without a head, and that's Domon's trump card down.

The attacks targetting the head are mainly for the sake of dirrectly eliminating an opponent from the competition, rather than murdering the pilot. Against Dark Gundam Units, he's got no issues with slashing them apart with the Shining Finger Sword / Burning Slash or using one of the SCHOOL OF THE UNDEFEATED OF THE EAST'S SECRET TECHNIQUES to just slaughter people.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-08-26, 10:04 AM
Against Dark Gundam Units, he's got no issues with slashing them apart with the Shining Finger Sword / Burning Slash or using one of the SCHOOL OF THE UNDEFEATED OF THE EAST'S SECRET TECHNIQUES to just slaughter zombies.

Fixed for accuracy. As far as I could tell there were only a few people Domon or the Shuffle Alliance killed in a fight who weren't DG-cell-animated corpses (the regular mooks, that Neo-Egyptian "mummy", post-OD Chapman, etc.)

Of the remaining villains who appear to have been or were definitely killed, all of them were either completely under control of the DG cells, monomaniacally insane and fighting to the death on purpose, or both.


Also, only Shining Finger targeted the head. Burning/God Finger pretty much just detonated the whole enemy Gundam while leaving the cockpit intact.

Mando Knight
2012-08-26, 01:27 PM
Couldn't Lagann just toss Gurren at the Shining/Burning Gundam and assimilate it?
No, because Lagann is the head, and Gurren is the body. :smalltongue:

maximus25
2012-08-26, 02:30 PM
No, because Lagann is the head, and Gurren is the body. :smalltongue:

Oh, darn it.

My friends keep correcting me on that too and I still get it wrong.

Nekura
2012-08-29, 01:30 PM
I think Getter Robo is specifically the inspiration for TTGL, but TTGL really pays homage to super robot shows as a whole, including G Gundam.

Burning Lagann would be amazing beyond words, though. Is there any mecha series TTGL can't crossover with?

Transformers?

Prime32
2012-08-29, 02:46 PM
Transformers?Oh, I don't know. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flP9OV52oR0)

And then you have things like the Headmasters...

Xondoure
2012-08-29, 02:50 PM
Transformers?

The Allspark is just begging to be spiral power.

Mando Knight
2012-08-29, 11:52 PM
The Allspark is just begging to be spiral power.

For how much its... different art style was maligned, Transformers Animated had a Japanese opening theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU9DWfHktfo) performed by the only group I would entrust a TTGL/Transformers crossover opening theme to.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-30, 01:25 AM
Fixed for accuracy. As far as I could tell there were only a few people Domon or the Shuffle Alliance killed in a fight who weren't DG-cell-animated corpses (the regular mooks, that Neo-Egyptian "mummy", post-OD Chapman, etc.)

Of the remaining villains who appear to have been or were definitely killed, all of them were either completely under control of the DG cells, monomaniacally insane and fighting to the death on purpose, or both.

That's because you're not supposed to kill the enemy pilot in the Gundam Fights. Which is why he mainly went for the head during said fights.


Also, only Shining Finger targeted the head. Burning/God Finger pretty much just detonated the whole enemy Gundam while leaving the cockpit intact.

It's funny, since most gundams' cockpits are in the stomache, which is where the Burning Finger aimed at most of the time. Though still, during that first part, the enemy was automatically disqualified with a quick head-explosion, so that's all he really tried/had to do to win then. He didn't need to target anything else, although he certainly could have.

Suichimo
2012-08-30, 01:55 AM
My thoughts, if Domon were transported to the TTGL universe, he would most certainly have an amazing well of Spiral Power to draw upon. Likely as large as Simon's, the man is able to kick buildings aside for pete's sake. Assuming Gurren Lagann piloted by Simon vs. Spiral Power Burning Gundam piloted by Domon, I think we'd just see Deus Ex after Deus Ex then the Anti-Spiral King would show up right between the two of them and get beat to death without either of them realizing it.

Also, I would just like to point out that Domon does have various ranged attacks which always seem to be forgotten, ranging from just the ranged Burning Finger he shot against Allenby, IIRC, to the Sekiha Burning Finger, and even Burger King if we want to add in secondary characters, though both Gurren Lagann and Burning Gundam are able to be piloted by just one person. And, I believe it was mentioned already, the only reason you see Domon go after the head of the other Gundams so much is because, due to the rules of the Gundam Fight, a Gundam that loses its head is disqualified from the tournament.


Actually, no. Those is all the abilities Gurren Lagann used during the show:
1. A wide range of drill- and sunglasses-themed attacks.
2. Turning a flying Ganmen into its Scrander.
3. One instance of teleportation during a crysis situation.
Anything beyond that is just a matter of speculation without any base in the actual show, and should not become a part of the discussion. Unless there's something else that was actually shown and that I missed.

Gurren Lagann was able to combine with other things in its own right, those could then hold their shape without it. It is entirely feasible to face off against Gurren Lagann, Arc Gurren Lagann, Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann, and (Super)Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

They actually teleported numerous times. Only the first time was in desperation, the others were all on purpose, teleporting to Nia.

Just as well, in the show they literally say the scope of what Spiral Power can do is limitless.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-30, 11:19 AM
Gurren Lagann was able to combine with other things in its own right, those could then hold their shape without it. It is entirely feasible to face off against Gurren Lagann, Arc Gurren Lagann, Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann, and (Super)Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

Despite several different issues with this when given the standard idea of a fight, someone must not have read the op.

So... what's the general call for this one? Still a draw, given both hot blooded protagonists would just blow up the universe arround them? Domon beating one pilot but not the other? Domon losing to both? Domon beating both?

Xondoure
2012-08-30, 04:13 PM
Despite several different issues with this when given the standard idea of a fight, someone must not have read the op.

So... what's the general call for this one? Still a draw, given both hot blooded protagonists would just blow up the universe arround them? Domon beating one pilot but not the other? Domon losing to both? Domon beating both?

I give it to Lagann, simply because Simon is the embodiement of will power for his entire universe. That's hard to beat when he can translate that directly into power at an exponential rate.

Suichimo
2012-08-30, 04:24 PM
Despite several different issues with this when given the standard idea of a fight, someone must not have read the op.

So... what's the general call for this one? Still a draw, given both hot blooded protagonists would just blow up the universe arround them? Domon beating one pilot but not the other? Domon losing to both? Domon beating both?

Wasn't meant to be a scenario for a fight. Was simply bringing up other abilities that Gurren Lagann has. I'm fully aware that it'd be just Gurren Lagann vs. Burning Gundam.

As for the other Gurren pilots, none of them were really that great of pilots. Kamina was far too reckless and too much of an idiot to do it on his own, Rossiu was a coward, and Viral never really did much as Gurren's pilot. It really comes down to just Simon in GL vs. Domon in BG.

And yeah, I say a draw.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-30, 07:01 PM
I give it to Lagann, simply because Simon is the embodiement of will power for his entire universe. That's hard to beat when he can translate that directly into power at an exponential rate.

What do you think the SCHOOL OF THE UNDEFEATED OF THE EAST runs on?

Zaydos
2012-08-30, 09:41 PM
What do you think the SCHOOL OF THE UNDEFEATED OF THE EAST runs on?

Pure willpower and fighting spirit.

G Gundam was set in a universe where hot-blood made you the best fighter, even surmounting disadvantages in your skill and mecha. Didn't hurt that Domon had skill, but it was heart that won it.

TTGL was set in a universe where hot-blood made you the best fighter, even surmounting disadvantages in your skill and mecha.

In a battle of hot-bloodedness I'd say it all comes up to a wash; both pilots are awesomely hot-blooded and manly (Kamina really reminded me of early show Domon including the secret self-doubt behind his hot-bloodedness). Meaning it comes down to skill and mecha. Gurren-Lagann has some neat abilities, but most of them are just applications of spiral power, the exception is the assimilation. Burning or Shining Gundam is probably the better machine than mecha sized GL. Even so I'd say we really don't have a way to say, so I'd chalk it up as undecided though I'd lean towards a spiral powered shining/burning gundam (it already had willpower based supermode so it should be spiral power compatible). The last one is skill and I'm going to have to give it to the master martial artist whose mecha knows kung-fu.

That said I think it's moot since the universe would be destroyed before the battle is half over. A crossover, however, would be awesome beyond belief, though to animate it properly would take a decade.

Mando Knight
2012-08-30, 09:48 PM
Gurren-Lagann has some neat abilities, but most of them are just applications of spiral power, the exception is the assimilation.
Assimilation is an application of Spiral Power as well, but seems to require Lagann-type Gunmen/Ganmen in order to work. It's the "art of MANLY COMBINING" and is also the system by which Lagann links up to fuse with and control larger mecha (to form Gurren Lagann, to usurp Dai-Gunzan to make it Dai-Gurren, to fuse with the Arc to form Arc Gurren Lagann, to fuse with THE MOON to restore it to being the Cathedral Terra, then combine Arc Gurren Lagann with it and boatloads of Spiral Power to transform the Super-Galactic Dai-Gurren to the Super-Galaxy Gurren Lagann, and then to reform its shell mecha out of thin air and badassery and create the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann...)

Zaydos
2012-08-30, 09:54 PM
Assimilation is an application of Spiral Power as well, but seems to require Lagann-type Gunmen/Ganmen in order to work. It's the "art of MANLY COMBINING" and is also the system by which Lagann links up to fuse with and control larger mecha (to form Gurren Lagann, to usurp Dai-Gunzan to make it Dai-Gurren, to fuse with the Arc to form Arc Gurren Lagann, to fuse with THE MOON to restore it to being the Cathedral Terra, then combine Arc Gurren Lagann with it and boatloads of Spiral Power to transform the Super-Galactic Dai-Gurren to the Super-Galaxy Gurren Lagann, and then to reform its shell mecha out of thin air and badassery and create the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann...)

Yeah, but unlike the others it does which can be done by other types of gunmen and seemingly any spiral powered mecha, it requires the specific model so it's not just spiral power and not something the gundam is liable to copy.

Mando Knight
2012-08-30, 10:00 PM
Yeah, but unlike the others it does which can be done by other types of gunmen and seemingly any spiral powered mecha, it requires the specific model so it's not just spiral power and not something the gundam is liable to copy.

On the other hand, the only two top-grade Spiral Warriors we've seen are the ones who also pilot Lagann-type Gunmen, and the King Kittan was able to assimilate one of Simon's Giga Drills near the end of the series. (And was pretty jacked up on Spiral Power at the time, seeing as his eyes went spiral, which only Simon's and Lordgenomes did elsewhere, AFAIK)

INoKnowNames
2012-08-30, 11:39 PM
I give it to Lagann, simply because Simon is the embodiement of will power for his entire universe. That's hard to beat when he can translate that directly into power at an exponential rate.


What do you think the SCHOOL OF THE UNDEFEATED OF THE EAST runs on?

I'll expand a bit on this. Even their Bro-Fist is made of unadulterated awesome. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AoN6mr3cQ8) I want you to tell me that they don't just -OOZE- Heroic Will Power.


Wasn't meant to be a scenario for a fight. Was simply bringing up other abilities that Gurren Lagann has. I'm fully aware that it'd be just Gurren Lagann vs. Burning Gundam.

As for the other Gurren pilots, none of them were really that great of pilots. Kamina was far too reckless and too much of an idiot to do it on his own, Rossiu was a coward, and Viral never really did much as Gurren's pilot. It really comes down to just Simon in GL vs. Domon in BG.

And yeah, I say a draw.


Pure willpower and fighting spirit.

G Gundam was set in a universe where hot-blood made you the best fighter, even surmounting disadvantages in your skill and mecha. Didn't hurt that Domon had skill, but it was heart that won it.

TTGL was set in a universe where hot-blood made you the best fighter, even surmounting disadvantages in your skill and mecha.

In a battle of hot-bloodedness I'd say it all comes up to a wash; both pilots are awesomely hot-blooded and manly (Kamina really reminded me of early show Domon including the secret self-doubt behind his hot-bloodedness). Meaning it comes down to skill and mecha. Gurren-Lagann has some neat abilities, but most of them are just applications of spiral power, the exception is the assimilation. Burning or Shining Gundam is probably the better machine than mecha sized GL. Even so I'd say we really don't have a way to say, so I'd chalk it up as undecided though I'd lean towards a spiral powered shining/burning gundam (it already had willpower based supermode so it should be spiral power compatible). The last one is skill and I'm going to have to give it to the master martial artist whose mecha knows kung-fu.

That said I think it's moot since the universe would be destroyed before the battle is half over. A crossover, however, would be awesome beyond belief, though to animate it properly would take a decade.

Hm.... sounds like we've got more going for a draw / G-Gundam win, at least given the basic scenarios...

Xondoure
2012-08-31, 01:12 AM
And did their heroic willpower lead to galaxy tossing mechs? No? Then I'm giving the fighting spirit to TTGL.

Suichimo
2012-08-31, 01:36 AM
And did their heroic willpower lead to galaxy tossing mechs? No? Then I'm giving the fighting spirit to TTGL.

Simply because that concept wasn't thought of for the show. Your point is moot anyway because:


Physics transfer over from one universe to another no matter the battleground. If it's reasonable that Domon's fighting spirit gives him access to spiral power, then he gets access to spiral power, and vice-versa.

So Domon and the Burning Gundam get Spiral Power and Simon and the Gurren Lagann get a Super Mode.

Both characters have plenty of ability to use each others main power up to its full potential. Domon definitely has the fighting spirit to match Simon and Simon has the ability to enter Super Mode.

Xondoure
2012-08-31, 01:34 PM
Simply because that concept wasn't thought of for the show. Your point is moot anyway because:



So Domon and the Burning Gundam get Spiral Power and Simon and the Gurren Lagann get a Super Mode.

Both characters have plenty of ability to use each others main power up to its full potential. Domon definitely has the fighting spirit to match Simon and Simon has the ability to enter Super Mode.

Right but Kamina had fighting spirit to match Simon, as did almost all of the members of team dai-gurren. Simon has something more than that which is never really clear. His is the drill that will pierce the heavens. Just who the hell do you think he is!?

INoKnowNames
2012-08-31, 02:08 PM
Right but Kamina had fighting spirit to match Simon, as did almost all of the members of team dai-gurren. Simon has something more than that which is never really clear. His is the drill that will pierce the heavens. Just who the hell do you think he is!?

... that's actually a good question? I'm trying not to sound biased here, but Domon's got a pretty dang good answer to that question: Gundam Fight Champion, Leader of the Shuffle Alliance, and the King of Hearts.

The title alone exudes Hot Blooded Will Power.

Xondoure
2012-08-31, 02:19 PM
... that's actually a good question? I'm trying not to sound biased here, but Domon's got a pretty dang good answer to that question: Gundam Fight Champion, Leader of the Shuffle Alliance, and the King of Hearts.

The title alone exudes Hot Blooded Will Power.

And his opponent is Simon the Digger. :smallamused:

INoKnowNames
2012-08-31, 02:28 PM
And his opponent is Simon the Digger. :smallamused:

There needs to be a fighting game involving Giant Robots, because this is a match made in heaven.

Zaydos
2012-08-31, 02:29 PM
Kamina harbored a lot of self-doubt, he pretended not to but that's something he reveals before dying (talking to Yoko). Which is just like Domon at the beginning of the series. Also note that Kamina still had the manly will-power to reach back from the grave and pull the others out of the Anti-Spiral trap which turned their spiral power against them. I haven't seen the movies, but that was probably the most impressive thing I saw in the show in my opinion.

Even so I'd argue that Kamina didn't actually have the fighting spirit to match Simon's, as much as I like Kamina better. Or at least Kamina said so and I have no reason to doubt Kamina in this case.

Tengu_temp
2012-08-31, 03:59 PM
Time to actually take a stance here.

Gurren Lagann has much more raw power than even Burning/God Gundam - Summon Emperor Chuck Love Love Sekiha Tenkyoken is a more powerful attack than Giga Drill Breaker, but its usage is highly plot-dependant and I doubt Domon would be able to use it here. Where the latter excels is much better agility and actual ranged attacks, all Gurren Lagann has in this department are extending drills and sunglasses boomerang.

From pilots, Kamina is the weakest one here - he's unskilled and bruteforces his way through everything without thinking, and doesn't have the advantage of bloody determination and hot-blooded willpower over Domon because he also has a crapload of these qualities. Domon has superior skill and powerful martial arts, complete with the ability to pull new techniques on the spot if the situation calls for it, but he's naive and can be easily fooled by tactically-minded opponents. And Simon has shown to be pretty tactically-minded at times, in addition to being as determined as the rest of them once he got better.

So yeah, if Kamina pilots Gurren Lagann, Domon probably wins, but if Simon does, then Simon probably wins.

I think this is a good place to mention one thing, something that many fans miss:
The whole point of Kamina's character is that he's not that badass.
He's a braggart who puts on a brave face, but he has shown to break several times under tension and needs to depend on others to keep up his morale. This is most clearly shown in the flashback where he and Simon are caught in a cave-in. The mantra of "believe in me who believes in you" is not just supposed to give Simon courage, but also bring it to Kamina - and it works, because where he really excels is motivating others with passionate speech.

Kato
2012-08-31, 05:48 PM
I wouldn't put it quite like that but yeah, that flashback and Kamina's "true" character is often ignored.
But Kamina is still much more than a passionate speaker. The whole resistance would probably never really accomplished anything if he hadn't made the first step. Sure, he needed Simon for it, but Simon needed him just as much.
I won't speculate on how much of a warrior or spiral warrior he is but he was integrable to what happened, not only as the martyr but only as the one who got everyone together, something that the Simon without ever meeting Kamina would have never been able to do.

Forum Explorer
2012-08-31, 06:04 PM
I think this is a good place to mention one thing, something that many fans miss:
The whole point of Kamina's character is that he's not that badass.
He's a braggart who puts on a brave face, but he has shown to break several times under tension and needs to depend on others to keep up his morale. This is most clearly shown in the flashback where he and Simon are caught in a cave-in. The mantra of "believe in me who believes in you" is not just supposed to give Simon courage, but also bring it to Kamina - and it works, because where he really excels is motivating others with passionate speech.

It's funny cause he gets talked down just as badly as he gets talked up (well perhaps not as badly but still.) Give the man credit for what he did accomplish. He did come up with the idea of hijacking his mech and pulled it off pretty much by himself. He started the resistance almost singlehandedly. His plan to capture Dai-Gurran worked almost flawlessly (if Simon hadn't been having a breakdown it would have worked flawlessly.)

I wouldn't classify his fighting as and unskilled and bruteforced. Well okay I kinda would. It's more of instinctive. He hasn't had any sort of formal training on how to fight or wage a war but he throws everything he has at it and sees what sticks. I honestly don't think we got to see Kamina's fighting potential. Afterall he pretty much caused the first Giga Drill Breaker when fatally wounded.

But yeah. Overall he wasn't that great of a fighter and honestly was likely outclassed by people like King Kattin or Yoko who had been fighting all their lives. He was completely outclassed by Viral when they fought.

kpenguin
2012-08-31, 08:44 PM
By the time of his death, Kamina was managing to hold his own with Viral. He was definitely not one of the best fighters in the group, but he seemed to learn quite quickly.

That aside, I concur that his skills lay not in being an actual badass, but in convincing others that he was one and that they took could be. Simon had the sheer willpower of a Green Lantern, but Kamina had the inspirational force of a Blue.

Tengu_temp
2012-09-01, 03:54 AM
I'd imagine that all the talking down is a reaction to some people claiming that Kamina is an unstoppable badass who can do everything, is the real hero of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and doesn't afraid of anything.

Prime32
2012-09-01, 08:04 AM
Gurren Lagann has much more raw power than even Burning/God Gundam - Summon Emperor Chuck Love Love Sekiha Tenkyoken is a more powerful attack than Giga Drill Breaker, but its usage is highly plot-dependant and I doubt Domon would be able to use it here. Where the latter excels is much better agility and actual ranged attacks, all Gurren Lagann has in this department are extending drills and sunglasses boomerang.GL also has Drill Missile Storm (or whatever it's called) and Giga Drill Maximum. They're even in SRW. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU5S5kORQtQ)

Tengu_temp
2012-09-01, 09:25 AM
I forgot about drill missiles (please don't sue, Getter-2!), but Giga Drill Maximum is pretty much "extending drills" taken to a ridiculous extreme. At least that's how I interpret whatever the heck is going on there.

Jayngfet
2012-09-02, 05:03 AM
In terms of a straight up fight I'd have to say it depends on Gurren Lagann's tactics more than anything.

Scenario one has them try to Lagann Impact the Gundam. This is a mistake, since Domon is an actual trained fighter while all the GL pilots are barely experienced brawlers. Domon throws out a few punches and ends it right there.

---

Scenario two has them try to spawn various types of drills and fight as mecha. The thing to take into account is that GL's base mode is smaller, but it's drills tend to be larger than you could reasonably expect a gundam to easily grasp, or else launched off with a greater degree of control than Shining or Burning gundam, simply because GL can launch drills as ranged weapons from any port in it's body while the Gundams both rely on helmet mounted smaller guns, or like, once, arm mounted beams. Not to mention that GL has greater manouverability due to it's size, as well as being able to fly, and dig quickly, as well as move through water.

Domon is essentially trying to fight an opponent who's mecha barely goes past his Gundam's knees, but is more maneuverable and can more easily fire quick shots he can't easily counter. He might have a longer melee range due to larger arms and swords that can probably cut through the glasses, but Simon's proven himself adept at evading quick attacks that don't move faster than bullet speed.

If Domon can get off a lucky hit, or else Simon and co. try a bad tacic, he's got it made. Otherwise, I have to give the fight to Gurren Lagaan.

DiscipleofBob
2012-09-02, 09:02 AM
Scenario two has them try to spawn various types of drills and fight as mecha. The thing to take into account is that GL's base mode is smaller, but it's drills tend to be larger than you could reasonably expect a gundam to easily grasp, or else launched off with a greater degree of control than Shining or Burning gundam, simply because GL can launch drills as ranged weapons from any port in it's body while the Gundams both rely on helmet mounted smaller guns, or like, once, arm mounted beams. Not to mention that GL has greater manouverability due to it's size, as well as being able to fly, and dig quickly, as well as move through water.

Domon is essentially trying to fight an opponent who's mecha barely goes past his Gundam's knees, but is more maneuverable and can more easily fire quick shots he can't easily counter. He might have a longer melee range due to larger arms and swords that can probably cut through the glasses, but Simon's proven himself adept at evading quick attacks that don't move faster than bullet speed.

If Domon can get off a lucky hit, or else Simon and co. try a bad tacic, he's got it made. Otherwise, I have to give the fight to Gurren Lagaan.

I know mech size scale is hard to gauge in anime, but I figured they'd be closer to the same size (unless you're referring to just Lagann).

And G Gundam mechs are pretty fast and manueverable, at least in part due to their cockpit system which isn't a bunch of buttons and levers, but a suit that reads all of the pilot's movements and mimics them in the Gundam.

Jayngfet
2012-09-02, 08:59 PM
I know mech size scale is hard to gauge in anime, but I figured they'd be closer to the same size (unless you're referring to just Lagann).

And G Gundam mechs are pretty fast and manueverable, at least in part due to their cockpit system which isn't a bunch of buttons and levers, but a suit that reads all of the pilot's movements and mimics them in the Gundam.

Shining Gundam is, according to the wiki, over 16 meters tall. That's what, somewhere between four and five stories as a rough guess? According to the wiki at least.

Lagaan is, from it's chin to the top of it's head what, 1.2 meters tall? Assuming it's the idealistic human proportions standardized to 8 heads tall that makes it about 9.6 meters tall. Lets round upwards, assuming that either Lagaan is a bit larger or else the GL is out of proportion by a bit in it's underlying structure, either or both are possible, though not by a whole lot considering Lagaan without it's legs is shorter than Kamina and basically on par with Simon in most scenes.

Going by proportions, even rounding up that's barely up to Shining Gundam's midsection. So yeah, it's not quite as small as I mentioned, but in terms of size Shining Gundam is actually a much, much larger machine.

And it's not that Shining Gundam is slower, so much as that Shining Gundam doesn't have quite so many ranged attack options, or quite so many movement options such as flight or underground or underwater travel, and with that bigger size can't fit into smaller streets and crevices as easily.

Tengu_temp
2012-09-02, 10:54 PM
By establishes Gainax tradition Lagann seems to have a varied size, somewhere between 1 and 3 meters tall depending on the situation. But I think Gurren Lagann is supposed to be at least as tall as a Gundam, if not more.

INoKnowNames
2012-09-02, 11:00 PM
And it's not that Shining Gundam is slower, so much as that Shining Gundam doesn't have quite so many ranged attack options, or quite so many movement options such as flight or underground or underwater travel, and with that bigger size can't fit into smaller streets and crevices as easily.

You certain about this? While he hasn't been seen burrowing underground or such, if Dragon Gundam can operate reasonably under water (not as good as Mermaid, but he wasn't empared by it or anything), then there's no reason Shining or Burning couldn't (not to mention being partially submerged against Bolt Gundam). And he's been seen flying in battle several times. Not fitting into crevices isn't much of a disadvantage when your opponent might be under similar conditions, and that's assuming you can't just destroy the city around yourself.

And remember, they've -frequently- -shot- the Glowing Finger at their target. The energy waves from the attack are frequently used for Domon's Ranged option. Assuming he doesn't have any other SECRET TECHNIQUES OF THE SCHOOL OF THE UNDEFEATED OF THE EAST to rock with; the Fingers are just rather easy and dirrect ways to get quick kills, which is why they get spammed. Along with such cheap production values.

Zaydos
2012-09-02, 11:23 PM
Looking around online for a size of vanilla gurren-lagann the most I could find is that it's supposed to be 10 to 15 meters. I think that's supposed to be the range in which the mech varied so it ranges from over half the size of the burning gundam (which is well above the knees) to almost perfect height for head destruction.

Jayngfet
2012-09-02, 11:32 PM
By establishes Gainax tradition Lagann seems to have a varied size, somewhere between 1 and 3 meters tall depending on the situation. But I think Gurren Lagann is supposed to be at least as tall as a Gundam, if not more.

Varied in size, but I'm going by how many meters tall it usually is. I don't recall a single scene where Lagaan, from the chin up, was anywhere near as big as 3 meters tall. 3 meters tall would be like, almost double the height of Kamina.

How anyone thinks it's supposed to be can't really factor into it due to bias. If you can find official measurements cited as being from the studio or from one of the lead people on the project that contradict me, be my guest.


You certain about this? While he hasn't been seen burrowing underground or such, if Dragon Gundam can operate reasonably under water (not as good as Mermaid, but he wasn't empared by it or anything), then there's no reason Shining or Burning couldn't (not to mention being partially submerged against Bolt Gundam). And he's been seen flying in battle several times. Not fitting into crevices isn't much of a disadvantage when your opponent might be under similar conditions, and that's assuming you can't just destroy the city around yourself.

And remember, they've -frequently- -shot- the Glowing Finger at their target. The energy waves from the attack are frequently used for Domon's Ranged option. Assuming he doesn't have any other SECRET TECHNIQUES OF THE SCHOOL OF THE UNDEFEATED OF THE EAST to rock with; the Fingers are just rather easy and dirrect ways to get quick kills, which is why they get spammed. Along with such cheap production values.

There's a big difference between being able to function under water or in the air, and being able to race through it at close to supersonic speeds. Gurren Lagaan's drill and corkscrew spawning in addition to integrated flight sphere gives it a rather wide range of movement options.

Yeah, the fingers can be shot, but then, so can drills. But at that point, again, Gurren Lagaan has like, two dozen ports it can shoot as many drills as it pleases from while the Gundams have two arms limited by the kind of structure arms generally carry. The difference being in that Gurren Lagaan can fire at 360 degrees without moving whole the Gundams can't.

Terrain wise, these are big variables is the thing. I mean we'd need to set specific terrain in order to get anything resembling consistent details to argue about. I'm just saying that if there's any real obstruction Gurren Lagaan has the advantage in terms of mobility and adaptability to the situation.

Tengu_temp
2012-09-03, 01:35 AM
Domon doesn't shoot fingers at enemies. His ranged attack is Sekiha Tenkyoken, which is a Gundam-sized DBZ-style energy blast. It's one of the most powerful techniques in his arsenal, too, while Gurren Lagann mostly uses ranged attacks on mooks - when it comes to boss-types it's almost always a complete melee fight. Which means that its ranged attacks are good for clearing a large area of weak enemies, but against a single strong one not so much.

Jayngfet
2012-09-03, 03:40 AM
Domon doesn't shoot fingers at enemies. His ranged attack is Sekiha Tenkyoken, which is a Gundam-sized DBZ-style energy blast. It's one of the most powerful techniques in his arsenal, too, while Gurren Lagann mostly uses ranged attacks on mooks - when it comes to boss-types it's almost always a complete melee fight. Which means that its ranged attacks are good for clearing a large area of weak enemies, but against a single strong one not so much.

Two things.

The first is the issue I was trying to dance around in the previous posts: Domon's good attacks take a LONG time to pull off. I mean, so does Simon but Domon takes long enough that Simon's probably already got his glasses-binder thing over his arms anyway, which would probably at least hold him long enough for the drill to penetrate three seconds later. Those ranged attacks, being DBZ style, are also accompanied by DBZ style shouting and build up antics.

Even assuming that he gets it off without stopping to yell, and that it's just a stylistic convention, Gurren Lagaan's Giga Drill is preceeded by a ranged attack that already binds it's arms.

There's probably some kind of vs. match protocol I'm not aware of here though.

Also, for armor, I'd need you to actually cite the kind of armor Shining or Burning gundam has compared to what an apparent Mook has. I mean like, I can imagine Gunmen aren't too strong since human sized guns are capable of taking them down with a few good hits depending on the model, but can you cite some kind of scene that shows the upper limit of what drill projectiles can do, vs the kind of damage the Gundam in question can take in a way that's measurable?

I mean, right now you're basically saying "Well he has those, but they don't work because Domon is better" without really backing it up that he's better in this specific way.

Kris Strife
2012-09-03, 03:44 AM
Domon can turn his Gundam/whole body into a rainbowy spiral of destruction, a School of Undefeated of the East technique (final battle with Master Asia), and Burning Slash Typhoon, which was designed to counter a large number of small weapons (Finals battle with George). Also, being able to make multiple copies of himself (Finals battle with Chibodee), and he presumably can use every technique that Master Asia was seen doing. School of Undefeated of the East is really weird. :smalltongue:

Also, Sekiha Tenkyoken has no charge up time beyond saying the name. They launch it pretty quickly at one another. Except for the Love Love Sekiha Tenkyoken.

Tengu_temp
2012-09-03, 03:59 AM
There's probably some kind of vs. match protocol I'm not aware of here though.


Super robot vs super robot. Talking, transformation and flashy attack buildups are all free actions.


Except for the Love Love Sekiha Tenkyoken.

I don't think this attack can be usable here, because it was used only once in a very specific set of circumstances, Rain doesn't participate in the fight, and it'd totally annihilate the opposition.

Kris Strife
2012-09-03, 05:18 AM
I don't think this attack can be usable here, because it was used only once in a very specific set of circumstances, Rain doesn't participate in the fight, and it'd totally annihilate the opposition.

I'm aware, simply saying that it's an exception to the attacks in G-Gundam typically being fairly quick. Typically, they're executing the attacks as they call the name.

DiscipleofBob
2012-09-03, 08:59 AM
Two things.

The first is the issue I was trying to dance around in the previous posts: Domon's good attacks take a LONG time to pull off. I mean, so does Simon but Domon takes long enough that Simon's probably already got his glasses-binder thing over his arms anyway, which would probably at least hold him long enough for the drill to penetrate three seconds later. Those ranged attacks, being DBZ style, are also accompanied by DBZ style shouting and build up antics.

Even assuming that he gets it off without stopping to yell, and that it's just a stylistic convention, Gurren Lagaan's Giga Drill is preceeded by a ranged attack that already binds it's arms.

There's probably some kind of vs. match protocol I'm not aware of here though.

Both combatants here are equally guilty of the shouting of attacks and flashy buildups, but there's a difference between attacks that actually require a charge-up time, and attacks with long names and seemingly long build-up times due to dramatic license. Plus even if they did take forever to fire, there's nothing to suggest that once they start a move they have to finish it and leave themselves open, and there's also no reason to suggest that the arm-binding sunglasses couldn't be avoided, caught, or broken out of.

Not saying that's automatically what would happen since as the OP I'm trying not to take sides, but it's unfair to accuse one of a vital weakness that happens to be more of a storytelling convention than an actual weakness, especially when both combatants are equally guilty of the same.


Also, for armor, I'd need you to actually cite the kind of armor Shining or Burning gundam has compared to what an apparent Mook has. I mean like, I can imagine Gunmen aren't too strong since human sized guns are capable of taking them down with a few good hits depending on the model, but can you cite some kind of scene that shows the upper limit of what drill projectiles can do, vs the kind of damage the Gundam in question can take in a way that's measurable?

I could be wrong, but I think like most Gundam universes, God Gundam and the others are made of Gundanium, which is a pretty strong alloy capable of making these mechs that in real life would be otherwise impractical. Granted, that doesn't mean a thing if you're trying to gauge that alloy in relation to others. Conventional weaponry doesn't seem to do that much damage, but I'm guessing that most Gundams have weak points in joints and the like vulnerable enough that their standard-issue head-mounted vulcan cannons can do a little bit of damage. Otherwise, why would they bother, even if the guns are usually just used as suppressing fire?

Re: Size I'm having trouble finding exact measurements for Gurren Lagaan. I was going by the fact that when you see both pilots in relation to their cockpits, they seem fairly similar. Sure, proportionally God Gundam might be taller, but I don't think that would have a significant influence on the battle any more than if a regular person's opponent was a foot taller or shorter. Sure, there are some subtleties and nuances that would give the slightly taller or slightly shorter the advantage, but it wouldn't swing anything.

Re: Maneuverability We haven't seen God Gundam do excessive aerial maneuvers or underwater combat because it normally doesn't come up. Most G Gundam fights take place in arenas. We know the Gundams can function underwater just fine, but the only example was versus a specifically aquatically designed Gundam, so we can't really infer if they're more or less effective. Most of the Gundams can also fly, they just can't break the atmosphere on their own power. I'll agree that Gurren Lagaan is more maneuverable, and it is a significant advantage, but I'm hesitant to believe that would cinch it for Gurren Lagaan.

Re: Ranged Attacks As was stated before, God Gundam doesn't rely on ranged attacks because most of his fights are up close and personal, but he has standard ranged weaponry and several of his special attacks are ranged.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-03, 10:26 AM
I could be wrong, but I think like most Gundam universes, God Gundam and the others are made of Gundanium, which is a pretty strong alloy capable of making these mechs that in real life would be otherwise impractical.


Gundanium is only really a thing for the After Colony calendar where its explicitly why the Gundams are so tough. Now mind you a lot of Gundams tend to have something, like latter on in the UC we have Gundarium on units like the Unicorn. However you don't find these mentioned on screen very much.

That said obviously the Gundams and most Mobile Suits are generally are of exception high grade materials.

Prime32
2012-09-03, 10:28 AM
I could be wrong, but I think like most Gundam universes, God Gundam and the others are made of Gundanium, which is a pretty strong alloy capable of making these mechs that in real life would be otherwise impractical.No "most"; gundanium only exists in Gundam Wing. The durability of Gundams varies wildly by continuity and tech level - some can be taken down by well-armed foot soldiers, while others can tank nukes. Added to that, in some continuities they use technologies which make units particularly resistant to certain forms of attack (eg. in Gundam SEED they use Phase-Shift Armor which blocks physical weapons but not energy attacks).

INoKnowNames
2012-09-05, 08:57 AM
No "most"; gundanium only exists in Gundam Wing. The durability of Gundams varies wildly by continuity and tech level - some can be taken down by well-armed foot soldiers, while others can tank nukes. Added to that, in some continuities they use technologies which make units particularly resistant to certain forms of attack (eg. in Gundam SEED they use Phase-Shift Armor which blocks physical weapons but not energy attacks).

If the wiki is to be believed, It's apparently made of Gundarium, which is like Gundanium, but a bit weaker. Or rather, since Gundanium is so strong it has to be forged in space, maybe it's just that Gundanium is simply better.

In any case, your sited Armor seems to be what Gundarium is like, coincidentally enough. Apparently it's the kind of thing that handles physical beat downs rather well, only showing the ability to take damage to energy weaponry.

Incidently, there've been multiple times in which the natives of Earth fought against the Gundam Fighters that were being jerks, and lost. Partially why lots of places viewed the Gundam Fighters as scum.