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View Full Version : [VS] God Mode Villain Sues! Naruto vs Bleach! [Spoilers?]



INoKnowNames
2012-08-25, 08:52 PM
I got to thinking about it... And I wonder who is an even worse villain between the two of them.

For most of the series, it didn't appear that a Ninja would exist who could take on a Soul Reaper (and anyone who calls them Shinigami deserves to be shot; they are not Gods of Death by any stretch of the imagination). Most of them are incredibly overpowered in ability, and the Ninja are far more grounded in comparison.

However, we've finally found someone who might actually compare, even to the other big bad! I honestly can't even begin to describe the abilities of these two fighters...

Sosuke Aizen, former (and possibly still) Big Bad of Bleach, former captain of one of the 13 court guard squads, master of kido, equiped with the Hogkyoku.

vs

Madara Uchiha, current Big Bad, if not Bigger Bad, of Naruto, heralded as one of the most powerful shinobi in existance, possibly immortal as of his ressurection.

Which God Mode Sue is the bigger God Mode Sue? What do you think?

Tavar
2012-08-25, 09:06 PM
So, someone who's ultimate power rests with his amazing eyes, versus someone who's special ability is defeated by the blind.

Yeah, I think Marada might have a bit of trouble with Azien.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-25, 09:09 PM
So, someone who's ultimate power rests with his amazing eyes, versus someone who's special ability is defeated by the blind.

Aizen's got so many other tricks beyond his hypnosis ability, though. His WTFButterfly Form's gamebreaking enough without him even using his Bankai...


Yeah, I think Marada might have a bit of trouble with Azien.

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic with this or not, concerning how you stated that statement.

Grimsage Matt
2012-08-25, 09:14 PM
Personaly, I'd say it might be rocket tag. Marada was huge ass offensive and defensive powers, and it's possible that he don't need to physicly see you to kill you. Plus, unlimited Chakra, and a lot of practice with most forms of jutsu. It's who can unleash the world breaking attack first.

Tavar
2012-08-25, 09:15 PM
My point was that Marada is one of the worst opponents to place against Azien, because he's almost certainly going to be trapped by the hypnosis, and once that happens it's game over.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-25, 09:21 PM
My point was that Marada is one of the worst opponents to place against Azien, because he's almost certainly going to be trapped by the hypnosis, and once that happens it's game over.

Ah, I see what you're saying. However, aren't the Uchiha more than capable of using their Dojutsu do defend against such assaults on the senses? Sasuke and Itachi stoped using Genjutsu when both realised the other were immune to it, and it would be an easy assumption to make that Madara would be better than them when it came to both the use and defence against hypnotism.

Genjutsu and Hypnotism seem like they're fairly compatable in translating from one series to another. It's actually why Madara's one of the few people who probably could take on Aizen, since few other people alone would be able to defend so well and not be weak in other areas.

Kitten Champion
2012-08-25, 09:54 PM
Ah, I see what you're saying. However, aren't the Uchiha more than capable of using their Dojutsu do defend against such assaults on the senses? Sasuke and Itachi stoped using Genjutsu when both realised the other were immune to it, and it would be an easy assumption to make that Madara would be better than them when it came to both the use and defence against hypnotism.

Genjutsu and Hypnotism seem like they're fairly compatable in translating from one series to another. It's actually why Madara's one of the few people who probably could take on Aizen, since few other people alone would be able to defend so well and not be weak in other areas.

Aizen has a 100& success rate with some of the most powerful and oldest spirits in existence, who were all aware of his ability and actively trying to subvert it, it's not likely Madara could. Possible, certainly, there's always a first time for anything.

The better question is, perhaps, would hypnosis work on Aizen -- assuming Madara isn't simply blasted into vapour upon contact which is a distinct possibility. The fact that he was done in by Hirako Shinji's reversed world does suggest he could be. Probably, it depends on how much of that was real, and how much of it was Aizen trolling them.

Then again, Eldrich Abomination Aizen didn't have eyes, exactly.

Silva Stormrage
2012-08-25, 11:29 PM
Aizen has a 100& success rate with some of the most powerful and oldest spirits in existence, who were all aware of his ability and actively trying to subvert it, it's not likely Madara could. Possible, certainly, there's always a first time for anything.

The better question is, perhaps, would hypnosis work on Aizen -- assuming Madara isn't simply blasted into vapour upon contact which is a distinct possibility. The fact that he was done in by Hirako Shinji's reversed world does suggest he could be. Probably, it depends on how much of that was real, and how much of it was Aizen trolling them.

Then again, Eldrich Abomination Aizen didn't have eyes, exactly.

Ya but I think he kinda does. Don't his tentacles have eye things on them? And he has to see somehow.

Now of course this goes to Aizen hands down. The ninja world doesn't have anything nearly fast enough to counter shunpo IMO. The sharigan has amazing perception ability but I don't think its fast enough to follow Aizen's shunpo. That plus kido plus Madara's arrogance = Aizen win. Because Aizen just needs to release his shikai on Madara and he wins.

Another thing to note, is that they are both arrogant villians who give long mocking speeches. I assume that they meet up, both tell the other to step aside as they are the gods of this world. Begin fighting, Aizen has advantage in reflexs and doesn't even need to call out his sword's name to release it... Once Madara is in his illusion he can never determine where Aizen is again and Aizen simply binds him using kido as he can't counter it.

Kitten Champion
2012-08-26, 12:22 AM
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii140/woahh_its_lindahh/blog/aizen-2.png

I suppose those are eyes. though so are those things peeled back on the side of his head... and that thing in the middle.

They seem more like sockets to me though.

Oh, and I think he was past using mere shunpo by the end, he was just sort of materializing wherever he wanted. I suspect at actually a much faster pace than depicted.

I think you'd might have a decent fight with pre-Hogkyoku Aizen versus Madara, although that would depend on what his bankai was.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-26, 12:51 AM
Aizen has a 100& success rate with some of the most powerful and oldest spirits in existence, who were all aware of his ability and actively trying to subvert it, it's not likely Madara could. Possible, certainly, there's always a first time for anything.

For Aizen's powerful hypnosis ability, what exactly did Captain Yamamoto and Ichigo have that made him deal with them differently in comparison to the others.

As for actively subverting it, "ignoring that he has the ability and rush him" doesn't seem like it subverts anything. Poor Hinamori's a good reminder of that.

Madara, mean while, as an Uchiha, has a genetic defense against that sort of thing (I forget if the Rinnegan is also capable of defending against illusions or not. It might not, since a Genjutsu was one of the few tricks Jiraya had that could let him fight against Pain).


The better question is, perhaps, would hypnosis work on Aizen --

Hm... Tsukuyomi vs Kyoha Tsuigetsu... I'd just as soon the use of the two would cancel the other out.


assuming Madara isn't simply blasted into vapour upon contact which is a distinct possibility.

Considering Aizen was oblitterating completely defenseless people with his presence, the way that, say, Cell's Aura prevented the weak human martial artists from even being able to touch him, I wouldn't doubt Aizen couldn't walk through regular shinobi and turn them into tang.

Madara when he wasn't a zombie, however, ranked at Aizen's level. Now that he is, that is most definitely not a distinct possibility. At least as far as I know, and I admit that I don't know, hence this thread.


Probably, it depends on how much of that was real, and how much of it was Aizen trolling them.

For all we know, this thread is a lie created by Aizen... :smalleek:


Then again, Eldrich Abomination Aizen didn't have eyes, exactly.

He had like 4 sets of them! Not forgetting the ones that he used to have before he grew in his new face!


Ya but I think he kinda does. Don't his tentacles have eye things on them? And he has to see somehow.

At what point were you under the suspicion that Aizen needed to see somehow? :smalltongue:


Now of course this goes to Aizen hands down. The ninja world doesn't have anything nearly fast enough to counter shunpo IMO.

What. (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Body_Flicker_Technique)


The sharigan has amazing perception ability but I don't think its fast enough to follow Aizen's shunpo.

Basic level Sharingan allowed for tracking someone capable of moving at bullet time speed. Madara's got the (as of now) highest level version. Tracking movements is one thing that was never questioned; it was the body being able to keep up and actually respond to what the eyes saw. Considering Madara's able to keep up with someone who moves at the speed of Lightning, this probably isn't too questionable on his part either.


That plus kido plus Madara's arrogance = Aizen win. Because Aizen just needs to release his shikai on Madara and he wins.

Assuming Ki = Chakra = Reikoru, Madara could potentially be able to absorb energy based attacks, and the bit about his Shikai has already been talked about.


Begin fighting, Aizen has advantage in reflexs and doesn't even need to call out his sword's name to release it...

Where was this confirmed?


http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii140/woahh_its_lindahh/blog/aizen-2.png

I suppose those are eyes. though so are those things peeled back on the side of his head... and that thing in the middle.

They seem more like sockets to me though.

And I suppose images like that need to be spoilered this late at night! :smalleek:


Oh, and I think he was past using mere shunpo by the end, he was just sort of materializing wherever he wanted. I suspect at actually a much faster pace than depicted.

By his 4th fusion with the Hogkyoku it was merely breaking himself down and reappearing.


I think you'd might have a decent fight with pre-Hogkyoku Aizen versus Madara, although that would depend on what his bankai was.

Random note: Post Hogkyoku Aizen actually lost his ability to use his sword period, it having decided he didn't need it, in his own words. Think the full power of the Hogkyoku equiped Aizen is worse than having to deal with fighting off his Hypnosis?

Infernally Clay
2012-08-26, 09:21 AM
Both are functionally immortal, but I'm actually going to ignore the Hogyoku and the Edo Tensei.

...and Madara still doesn't stand much of a chance. Aizen is physically superior in every respect (to the point where I'd be surprised if he couldn't cut the simpler forms of Susano'o in half) and his Shikai is something Madara cannot overcome. It affects all five senses to such a fine degree that he can make you think you hit something even if you didn't (as he showed against Harribel). Plus he has all that Kido and I'd like to see Madara's Mokuton or Katon jutsu getting through a Kido like Danku.

Tengu_temp
2012-08-26, 09:26 AM
Whoever wins, the real loser is the audience.

Agrippa
2012-08-26, 10:40 AM
Whoever wins, the real loser is the audience.

Even if Vlad Taltos (http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Vlad_Taltos) walked up behind the winner and drove Lady Telda into his back?

Tengu_temp
2012-08-26, 11:22 AM
I don't know that guy, but if he can make it stick then I approve.

Agrippa
2012-08-26, 12:05 PM
I don't know that guy, but if he can make it stick then I approve.

Considering the fact that he killed a god before, with some prep time and highly powerful allies at his side against five of these Jenoine or gods, yeah I think he can make it stick. Besides, after this stupid duel he'll only have to worry about killing one of them, who'll probably be a little fatigued after tearing the other Big Bad to shreds. Of course he'll do the killing with Godslayer/Lady Teldra (http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Godslayer).

Edit: I was mistaken, Vlad didn't kill a gods because Jenoine and gods are different things. Jenoine are primordial beings of great sorcerous power who created the Dragoreans. Gods are acsended mortals.

darksolitaire
2012-08-26, 03:30 PM
Current edo Madara and final Aizen are both immortal, so...
Well, both could be defeated by sealing tech, so it would come down to transparency. Aizen probably knows how to seal Madara trough being awesome at kido, and Madara probably knows how to seal Aizen because of being a god damn Uchiha.


Aizen is physically superior in every respect (to the point where I'd be surprised if he couldn't cut the simpler forms of Susano'o in half) and his Shikai is something Madara cannot overcome. It affects all five senses to such a fine degree that he can make you think you hit something even if you didn't (as he showed against Harribel).

To Aizen being physically stronger, Madara has access to some crazy rinnegan tech. Gravitational manipulation should not be discarded. As to the second, Narutoverse illusions such as Tsukuyomi effect on the chakra on the victim's brain, not senses, being on par or better then Aizen's. It's lot more even fight then you let on.:smallsmile:

Traab
2012-08-26, 10:47 PM
I think hypnosis can be dismissed, at least against madera. Thats one of the main, basic, original things the sharingan was made for. Way back when it was awesome and not eye rollingly overpowered, the sharingan could see through pretty much all illusions. Someone mentioned that aizens hypnosis could effect all senses. Ok, I will accept that, but how effective is it when madera knows he can only trust what he sees, and not what he hears smells tastes or touches? He can SEE that aizen moved. He wouldnt be fooled by feeling the impact of his fist apparently hitting an aizen that isnt there. He would be able to ignore the sound of his opponent charging from his left, because he can see him sneaking up on the right.

Ok, lets get rid of that auto win skill then. What do we have now? Obscene speed and raw power? Honestly? I can see aizen with the edge. I mean, I watched his death match against ichigo, and he is tanking hits that obliterate larger areas than when naruto went 4 tails on orochimaru. He isnt blocking them, or dodging them, he is getting hit in the face with them and just being annoyed. (slight exageration, I know he was sorta freaking out that ichigo could even do that much) I will admit, that I havent seen the new madera fight. Just ehard some random bits in the discussion thread. But I dont know if madera has been taking direct shots from attacks of that magnitude yet or not. I also dont know what the outer limits of susanoo are for him. Sasuke took some nasty shots that did damage to his during the 5 kage summit, but his wasnt even remotely close to complete yet. So have we seen any attacks breach maderas susanoo yet?

Kitten Champion
2012-08-27, 12:52 AM
For Aizen's powerful hypnosis ability, what exactly did Captain Yamamoto and Ichigo have that made him deal with them differently in comparison to the others.

As for actively subverting it, "ignoring that he has the ability and rush him" doesn't seem like it subverts anything. Poor Hinamori's a good reminder of that.


Ya'know, I don't think Yamamoto was ever in a situation where could be put under hypnosis. Aizen used Kyoha Tsuigetsu on all of the subordinate shinigami in a false demonstration of his abilities, others were apparently exposed to it over the centuries while fighting hollows and the like. But Yamamoto would never have tolerated a shikai release in his presence -- I believe they're supposed to be entirely unarmed during meetings and the like -- and he never really leaves the 1st division's area to go anywhere he could be potentially targeted.

Why he didn't use it in the war, whether he wouldn't be able to under those conditions or he simply didn't bother with it, is up to your interpretation.

As for subverting it, I'm thinking more along the lines of Gin and Urahara than the futile efforts of the charging shinigami he cut down. Urahara waited until Aizen's arrogance and power overcame his sense of vulnerability and spiked him with the binding, which otherwise he'd wisely dodged. Gin spent centuries looking for the weakness to Aizen's ability in order to defeat him, and would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for that meddlesome Hogkyoku.

gooddragon1
2012-08-27, 03:59 AM
There has been evidence of naruto characters with sharingan altering reality (this is in fact how the 10 tailed beast got separated into each of the other tailed beasts). However, we actually see a shinigami appear once in the series and he's treated as a very powerful entity who removes the soul of his target. If that's the rank of a normal shinigami... I can't even imagine what Aizen would be doing.

Traab
2012-08-27, 07:11 AM
There has been evidence of naruto characters with sharingan altering reality (this is in fact how the 10 tailed beast got separated into each of the other tailed beasts). However, we actually see a shinigami appear once in the series and he's treated as a very powerful entity who removes the soul of his target. If that's the rank of a normal shinigami... I can't even imagine what Aizen would be doing.

Yeah, but in those cases this shinigami has to work through a medium, he doesnt just show up, tear the souls out of everyone, then go home, he had to be summoned, work through the body and soul of his summoner, and he could be fought off if his summoner was weakened. Besides all that, im pretty sure the shinigami of naruto is not the same as a soul reaper in bleach. Or do the reapers regularly tear the souls out of living people and devour them? That strikes me as more of a hollow thing, and even they tend to target ghosts.

lord_khaine
2012-08-27, 07:54 AM
Ya'know, I don't think Yamamoto was ever in a situation where could be put under hypnosis. Aizen used Kyoha Tsuigetsu on all of the subordinate shinigami in a false demonstration of his abilities, others were apparently exposed to it over the centuries while fighting hollows and the like. But Yamamoto would never have tolerated a shikai release in his presence -- I believe they're supposed to be entirely unarmed during meetings and the like -- and he never really leaves the 1st division's area to go anywhere he could be potentially targeted.

No, it was stated somewhere that he demonstrated its ability before the captains, thats how Yamamoto got affected.

And this is the guy who tank bankai shots to his face for nostalgia, he wouldnt have a problem with someone demonstrating their bankai/shikai in front of them, and would most likely demand it done as a part of the captain test.

Kitten Champion
2012-08-27, 08:46 AM
No, it was stated somewhere that he demonstrated its ability before the captains, thats how Yamamoto got affected.

And this is the guy who tank bankai shots to his face for nostalgia, he wouldnt have a problem with someone demonstrating their bankai/shikai in front of them, and would most likely demand it done as a part of the captain test.

Oh, I assumed there was a valid reason Aizen needed to go through the convoluted process of sealing his zanpakutou using a specially designed hollow only to nearly die when it failed.

Apparently not.

I didn't think he's afraid of anyone in particular waving a sword around him, he's just something of a stickler for rules. I seem to recall going unarmed during any official business with him was one of them.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-29, 11:18 PM
Both are functionally immortal, but I'm actually going to ignore the Hogyoku and the Edo Tensei.
I hate how vaguely defined their powers are.... Madara's sketchy past, and Aizen being completely untrustworthy...

...and Madara still doesn't stand much of a chance.
?

Aizen is physically superior in every respect (to the point where I'd be surprised if he couldn't cut the simpler forms of Susano'o in half)
Got any examples to site on this?

and his Shikai is something Madara cannot overcome. It affects all five senses to such a fine degree that he can make you think you hit something even if you didn't (as he showed against Harribel).
The exact kind of thing that not only Ninja actually do get trained against, but that Madara's signature special ability, on it's most basic level, let alone the premium platinum version he's long since upgraded to, is famous for defending against?

Plus he has all that Kido and I'd like to see Madara's Mokuton or Katon jutsu getting through a Kido like Danku.
Other than attacks big enough to go around such a thing, or attacking on multiple angles with multiple wood clones.... though I only see the example from the wiki, so my knowledge on it is limited.

Whoever wins, the real loser is the audience.
Assuming we'd even get to see it and it isn't just us getting trolled.

Even if Vlad Taltos (http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Vlad_Taltos) walked up behind the winner and drove Lady Telda into his back?

I don't know that guy, but if he can make it stick then I approve.
This.

Current edo Madara and final Aizen are both immortal, so...
Well, both could be defeated by sealing tech, so it would come down to transparency. Aizen probably knows how to seal Madara trough being awesome at kido, and Madara probably knows how to seal Aizen because of being a god damn Uchiha.
It doesn't seem unlikely for an Uchiha, particularly one with the Rinnegan and being part of the plan to capture and seal the Tailed Beasts, to be without his own Sealing Techniques.

To Aizen being physically stronger, Madara has access to some crazy rinnegan tech. Gravitational manipulation should not be discarded.
As should not the ability to, on a split second, absorb and be empowered by an energy based attacks.

I will admit, that I havent seen the new madera fight. Just ehard some random bits in the discussion thread.
You should go read and see what Madara's been up to since his revival. To put it in his words, the world is lucky the good guys are so incredibly weak, so that when they have to redraw the areas he's destroyed as a by product of his fighting, it won't be such a huge task.

Ya'know, I don't think Yamamoto was ever in a situation where could be put under hypnosis. Aizen used Kyoha Tsuigetsu on all of the subordinate shinigami in a false demonstration of his abilities, others were apparently exposed to it over the centuries while fighting hollows and the like. But Yamamoto would never have tolerated a shikai release in his presence -- I believe they're supposed to be entirely unarmed during meetings and the like -- and he never really leaves the 1st division's area to go anywhere he could be potentially targeted.
Why he didn't use it in the war, whether he wouldn't be able to under those conditions or he simply didn't bother with it, is up to your interpretation.
I'm still not sure why Ichigo was so special as to be completely unvunerable to it for whatever reason, at least until Aizen no longer needs it.

As for subverting it, I'm thinking more along the lines of Gin and Urahara than the futile efforts of the charging shinigami he cut down. Urahara waited until Aizen's arrogance and power overcame his sense of vulnerability and spiked him with the binding, which otherwise he'd wisely dodged. Gin spent centuries looking for the weakness to Aizen's ability in order to defeat him, and would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for that meddlesome Hogkyoku.
...... fudge, brain fart. How does this part tie in with Aizen vs Madara?

There has been evidence of naruto characters with sharingan altering reality (this is in fact how the 10 tailed beast got separated into each of the other tailed beasts).
Indeed. It's speculated that Madara knows some of these techs, too, though he hasn't used any yet.

However, we actually see a shini-
*headshot*
Hidan is a Ninja who joined a Cult and gained Immortality from it. Nothing more.

No, it was stated somewhere that he demonstrated its ability before the captains, thats how Yamamoto got affected.
And this is the guy who tank bankai shots to his face for nostalgia, he wouldnt have a problem with someone demonstrating their bankai/shikai in front of them, and would most likely demand it done as a part of the captain test.
3 Captains, including Yamamoto, have to see the Bankai to be a Captain. Or you can just kill a captain, but only Kenpachi's done this. The only other way is to be recommended by 6 captains and recieve the approval from at least 3 others. But I don't know if Aizen did that or not.

Oh, I assumed there was a valid reason Aizen needed to go through the convoluted process of sealing his zanpakutou using a specially designed hollow only to nearly die when it failed.
Apparently not.
I think that the idea that particularly strong people, like Yamamoto, are apparently capable of telling the difference between illusions and reality, does have a bit of credence here.

Either that, or Kubo's just a terrible writer. But that's just personal bias.

I didn't think he's afraid of anyone in particular waving a sword around him, he's just something of a stickler for rules. I seem to recall going unarmed during any official business with him was one of them.
I don't think he'd care if the person came armed or not. After all, in his presence, there is no better security in the entire soul society.

Xondoure
2012-08-30, 05:20 AM
Hidan wasn't the death god in question. The Death God Summoning Technique the Fourth used against the Kyubii is the one in question.

Fan
2012-08-30, 05:46 AM
Alright, time to repost my bleach calc for Dangai Ichigo's sword swing by shamelessly copy pasting, apologies for typos that may be present.

We will instead use 20 kwh/ton (20 kwh to pulverize 1 ton of solid rock into fine powder.. )
Quote:
conversion is based on the density of rock - I'll use 2700 kg/m^3 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_crust - "Consisting mostly of granitic rock, continental crust has a density of about 2.7 g/cm3" )

http://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-e...-kWh-to-J.html
20 kwh = 72000000 J
907 kg / 2700 kg/m^3 = 0.3359 m^3 = 335900 cm^3
72000000 J / 335900 cm^3 = 214.35 J/cc
cool

so I need to switch 1600 with 214.35 and hopefully get a more realistic swing speed (by shamelessly copy-pasting an old calc)


49,711.2 m^3 * 1,000,000 = 49,711,200,000 cc * 214.35 = 10,655,595,720,000 Joules

With this, we can now calculate the average force exerted by the shockwave.

10,655,595,720,000 / 45.75 = 232,909,196,065.6 N, the average force exerted by the shockwave.

Next I need to find the area affected by the shockwave so I can find pressure.

The area of an oval is pi * radius 1 * radius 2

So 3.14 * 22.875 * 38.775 = 2,785.111 m^2, the area affected by the shockwave.

P = F/A

232,909,196,065.6 / 2,785.111 =83,626,539.86 N/m^2 / 1,000 = 83,626.54 Kpa, the pressure exerted by the shockwave.

With our pressure in Kilopascals, we can now find the speed of the shockwave with the Rayleigh Pitot Tube Formula.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3968/shockwaveequation.jpg

Above is the exact formula. Just to specify a few things:

Pt = Pressure total, 83,626.54 Kpa
P1 = Atmospheric pressure, I'll be using 101.325 Kpa here.
Y = Specific heat Ratio, here I'll be using 1.4, which is basically something for perfect conditions.

Pt / P1 = ( ( y + 1)^2 M^2 / 4y M^2 - 2 (y - 1) ) y / y - 1 (1 - y) + 2y M^2 / y + 1


83,626.54 / 101.325 = ( (1.4 + 1)^2 * M^2 / 4 * 1.4 M^2 - 2 (1.4 - 1) ) 1.4 / 1.4 - 1 (1 - 1.4) + 2 * 1.4 M^2 / 1.4 + 1.

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-.4)+(2.8 * M^2) / .4

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-.4/.4)+(2.8 * M^2 /.4)

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-1+(7 * M^2)

miracles of modern technology (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=825.33+%3D+[%285.76*x^2%29+%2F+%285.6*x^2+-+.8%29]^3.5+*+[%28-1%2B%287*x^2%29]+)

M = 10.32

Aizen was able to keep up with this, and surpassed it at the end of the fight only to be surpassed again.

Naruto calc's top out at Mach 5 going by Madara's, and the higher end feats with the 4th's teleportation technique. I can post these too, but it'll be copy pasting from other users as I feel lazy right now.

Xondoure
2012-08-30, 05:49 AM
So when Rock Lee is moving faster than the eye can follow (during a chunin exam) that's lower than Mach 5?

Fan
2012-08-30, 05:49 AM
So when Rock Lee is moving faster than the eye can follow (during a chunin exam) that's lower than Mach 5?

By a good measure. Faster than eye movement on something as large as a person doesn't need to be as fast as a fighter jet. You don't even need to be mach.

Any breaking of the sound barrier would've caused collateral damage, or at least had an obvious mach cone or boom, or some other manner of extrapolating it could be anything else through science.

Anything else, speculation.

Xondoure
2012-08-30, 06:09 AM
By a good measure. Faster than eye movement on something as large as a person doesn't need to be as fast as a fighter jet.

Any breaking of the sound barrier would've caused collateral damage, or at least had an obvious mach cone or boom, or some other manner of extrapolating it could be anything else through science.

Anything else, speculation.

Ah but see here we run into manga physics problems. Kishi isn't necessarily thinking of this, and I wouldn't expect to see a sonic boom from any generic mangaka outside of some special attack technique (Guile, Street Fighter, Sonic the Hedgehog.) Meanwhile a genin (admittedly a gifted extremely hard working one) was already moving so fast he was a blur. But since, that admittedly tells us very little (that being mostly viewer perspective) let's look at how many rotations Lee was making around Gaara per second, estimate the perimeter of the circle he's making, and judge his speed from there.

Oh wait, half of that is guess work in a medium that cares more about flair than realism. :smalltongue:

Not to mention any calcs would be taken from the anime, and thus would not necessarily account for the speed of the participants in their manga incarnations.

Personally I don't think it matters since Madara's eyes most certainly can keep up with Aizen however fast he moves, and using eye techniques means Amaterasu at least would be able to keep up. Not to mention the shenanigans* of rineggan level power (gravity manipulation for starters.)

That said, Aizen is a dangerous heavy hitter in his own right, and if Madara tries to tank a Cero, he might be out of luck.

*Shenanigan is now the official translation of sharingan in my head canon.

Fan
2012-08-30, 06:19 AM
Ah but see here we run into manga physics problems. Kishi isn't necessarily thinking of this, and I wouldn't expect to see a sonic boom from any generic mangaka outside of some special attack technique (Guile, Street Fighter, Sonic the Hedgehog.) Meanwhile a genin (admittedly a gifted extremely hard working one) was already moving so fast he was a blur. But since, that admittedly tells us very little (that being mostly viewer perspective) let's look at how many rotations Lee was making around Gaara per second, estimate the perimeter of the circle he's making, and judge his speed from there.

Oh wait, half of that is guess work in a medium that cares more about flair than realism. :smalltongue:

Not to mention any calcs would be taken from the anime, and thus would not necessarily account for the speed of the participants in their manga incarnations.

Personally I don't think it matters since Madara's eyes most certainly can keep up with Aizen however fast he moves, and using eye techniques means Amaterasu at least would be able to keep up. Not to mention the shenanigans* of rineggan level power (gravity manipulation for starters.)

That said, Aizen is a dangerous heavy hitter in his own right, and if Madara tries to tank a Cero, he might be out of luck.

*Shenanigan is now the official translation of sharingan in my head canon.

Humor, genre conventions, and sarcasm doesn't disprove the calcs. Unless you have hard science to back up your claims, please don't make them.

The calcs were also taken from the manga.

Mach 10 is also considerably faster than human perception, though I will give that the Sharingan would improve this, but not enough to exceed the top speeds in Naruto which he does have some difficulty keeping track of.

Xondoure
2012-08-30, 06:29 AM
Humor, genre conventions, and sarcasm doesn't disprove the calcs. Unless you have hard science to back up your claims, please don't make them.

The calcs were also taken from the manga.

Mach 10 is also considerably faster than human perception, though I will give that the Sharingan would improve this, but not enough to exceed the top speeds in Naruto which he does have some difficulty keeping track of.

There is no hard science in a world where characters continuously violate the laws of physics.

Traab
2012-08-30, 06:54 AM
Xon is right. The thing is, you can use visual guides and break them down into math all you like, but they are overruled by word of god on how fast/strong/deadly a character is. Just because they either failed to include things like the visible sign of breaking the sound barrier, doesnt mean the author wasnt trying to show the character as moving at, to pull a random number out of my butt, 3x the speed of sound.

And then you include stuff that is basically rule of cool, like naruto being able to summon up enough chakra that the ground around him is cracking and shattering and rising into the air, or that thing the bleach characters do that spiritual pressure that seems to somehow work like, "Im thinking about killing you so hard, my THOUGHTS are killing you right now" evidenced by times when yammaoto took the field and that girl, nanao I think it was? Nearly died on the spot just from him being there. Things that dont work off of physics, and cant really be compared from universe to universe except vaugely. Like saying, Well, zabuza was able to make sasuke try to commit suicide, just through killing intent, so clearly both have similar presence, therefore, someone like madera would be able to stand up to aizens just fine"

You mentioned that lee didnt have to be going that fast to be a barely seen blur, but you ignore the fact that many of these people are specifically trained to see fast moving targets, or have dojutsus that make it easier, and even they arent able to keep up. You cant apply normal human response ability to these chakra empowered mutant ninja. They cant even follow his movements for the most part. He is moving so quickly and powerfully the ground is acting like lake water as a powerboat flies through it. He is leaving a wake everywhere he goes. You have people like gai that move so fast the air itself ignites around him! How fast would you have to go for that to happen?

Fan
2012-08-30, 07:08 AM
Relying on genre conventions as a counter argument isn't very stable.

As for Gai, friction causes ignition, it has nothing to do with how fast he's moving, but how fast he's striking that he ignites.

His movement speed at 8 gates is actually one of the things calc'd in at 4 something odd mach.

Saying "Science doesn't work because they also have magic" also doesn't work because at the same time they have gravity and other universal constants, just because they have an internal means of producing energy on par with a nuclear reactor or small star doesn't mean anything. Through magic, they control those forces, and from there exert them as a by product with Reiatsu, and "killing intent".

Physics exist, and can be applied ESPECIALLY in the case of Dangai Ichigo as he was exerting no external reaitsu at the time (by word of God.), and was thus pure physical swing speed rather than a reiatsu pulse or other magic.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-30, 11:12 AM
Alright, time to repost my bleach calc for Dangai Ichigo's sword swing by shamelessly copy pasting, apologies for typos that may be present.

We will instead use 20 kwh/ton (20 kwh to pulverize 1 ton of solid rock into fine powder.. )
Quote:
conversion is based on the density of rock - I'll use 2700 kg/m^3 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_crust - "Consisting mostly of granitic rock, continental crust has a density of about 2.7 g/cm3" )

http://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-e...-kWh-to-J.html
20 kwh = 72000000 J
907 kg / 2700 kg/m^3 = 0.3359 m^3 = 335900 cm^3
72000000 J / 335900 cm^3 = 214.35 J/cc
cool

so I need to switch 1600 with 214.35 and hopefully get a more realistic swing speed (by shamelessly copy-pasting an old calc)


49,711.2 m^3 * 1,000,000 = 49,711,200,000 cc * 214.35 = 10,655,595,720,000 Joules

With this, we can now calculate the average force exerted by the shockwave.

10,655,595,720,000 / 45.75 = 232,909,196,065.6 N, the average force exerted by the shockwave.

Next I need to find the area affected by the shockwave so I can find pressure.

The area of an oval is pi * radius 1 * radius 2

So 3.14 * 22.875 * 38.775 = 2,785.111 m^2, the area affected by the shockwave.

P = F/A

232,909,196,065.6 / 2,785.111 =83,626,539.86 N/m^2 / 1,000 = 83,626.54 Kpa, the pressure exerted by the shockwave.

With our pressure in Kilopascals, we can now find the speed of the shockwave with the Rayleigh Pitot Tube Formula.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3968/shockwaveequation.jpg

Above is the exact formula. Just to specify a few things:

Pt = Pressure total, 83,626.54 Kpa
P1 = Atmospheric pressure, I'll be using 101.325 Kpa here.
Y = Specific heat Ratio, here I'll be using 1.4, which is basically something for perfect conditions.

Pt / P1 = ( ( y + 1)^2 M^2 / 4y M^2 - 2 (y - 1) ) y / y - 1 (1 - y) + 2y M^2 / y + 1


83,626.54 / 101.325 = ( (1.4 + 1)^2 * M^2 / 4 * 1.4 M^2 - 2 (1.4 - 1) ) 1.4 / 1.4 - 1 (1 - 1.4) + 2 * 1.4 M^2 / 1.4 + 1.

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-.4)+(2.8 * M^2) / .4

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-.4/.4)+(2.8 * M^2 /.4)

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-1+(7 * M^2)

miracles of modern technology (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=825.33+%3D+[%285.76*x^2%29+%2F+%285.6*x^2+-+.8%29]^3.5+*+[%28-1%2B%287*x^2%29]+)

M = 10.32

Aizen was able to keep up with this, and surpassed it at the end of the fight only to be surpassed again.

Naruto calc's top out at Mach 5 going by Madara's, and the higher end feats with the 4th's teleportation technique. I can post these too, but it'll be copy pasting from other users as I feel lazy right now.

I spoilered all the parts that I didn't understand. You probably put more thought into those physics than the author did.

And I fail to see how this is at all relevant. Then again, I don't usually trust things I can't even begin to understand, which, while ignorant, is usually a safe stance.


There is no hard science in a world where characters continuously violate the laws of physics.

This. Advent Children is kinder to the laws, nay, the possibility of physics, than Naruto and Bleach are.


Saying "Science doesn't work because they also have magic" also doesn't work because at the same time they have gravity and other universal constants

Physics exist, and can be applied ESPECIALLY in the case of Dangai Ichigo as he was exerting no external reaitsu at the time (by word of God.), and was thus pure physical swing speed rather than a reiatsu pulse or other magic.

Actually, Bleach kinda ignores Gravity in most of it's fights. People stand on air and hop around back and forth Dragon Ball Z style without seeming to give a ****. Litterally, I've wanted to figure out how they even do that.

When does it say that "Dangai Ichigo" wasn't using reiatsu? It says that they couldn't feel it, which isn't to say that he wasn't using it or didn't had it. It was saying, infact, that he was so strong, that he'd have to lower his power level to a point that they'd be able to detect it. Aizen was like this, too. Case in point. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c420/14.html)

Fan
2012-08-30, 02:00 PM
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Please read the manga. (http://view.thespectrum.net/manga/Bleach/Volume%2048/bleach_c418_002.JPG)

Right there, "sacrificed it all for the benefits of raw physical ability.", which is exactly what he did there, and the ensuing sword strike before any other power ups is what I got the numbers for my calc from a few pages later.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-30, 02:10 PM
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Please read the manga. (http://view.thespectrum.net/manga/Bleach/Volume%2048/bleach_c418_002.JPG)

Right there, "sacrificed it all for the benefits of raw physical ability.", which is exactly what he did there, and the ensuing sword strike before any other power ups is what I got the numbers for my calc from a few pages later.

Your website doesn't seem to display that page for me. It goes from chapter 50 to about chapter 450, with no gap inbetween, despite my searching.
I still know what you're refering to, though.

Notice how wrong he had been proven about almost everything he had been saying to Ichigo from that point on, and that Tatsuki noted to not be able to sense Ichigo, due to the same principle that Aizen was commenting on that I referenced? The same principle the Captains were subjected to while Aizen was getting off on the Hogkyoku?

Aizen was -wrong- earlier about Ichigo sacrificing reiatsu for physical strange, and he -realised- this as the fight continued, much to his own horror. Aizen, one page prior to the one I referenced, noted that he -still- hadn't felt a thing, like he hadn't felt anything earlier when Ichigo reappeared, and couldn't feel anything even though Ichigo was putting out immense power activating his Final Getsuga, before using Mugetsu.

And don't tell me to please read the manga, when it is infact the Manga that I'm getting the basic information from, not 500 different calculations on actions the author hadn't even put that much thought into.

Fan
2012-08-30, 02:19 PM
What are you talking about?

Everyone "felt" Aizen as a constant pressure, even Tatsuki did. Stating that she could feel a huge pressure coming off Aizen, and his pressure was even to the point where physical objects disentergrated near him.

Could he have been wrong? Yes. But that's speculation, and conjecture based on events after an obvious power up.

Also that's "volumes" at up to 50, check how many pages each has.

doliest
2012-08-30, 02:27 PM
Not even touching the 'physics' argument with a ten foot polearm, and instead asking a question:

On Madara- do we mean 'Edo Tensie'd' Madara Uchiha? Or Tobi 'Troll'in' Currently nameless?

Based on the mentions of the Rinnegan, I'm guessing Tobi?

In which case, I also want to add that, and I've been out of the loop for a while so this might be off, didn't he have a 'Phase out of reality for up to 5 minutes' hax ability? If he still has that, I'd argue he has a good shot against Aizen.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-30, 02:41 PM
What are you talking about?

Everyone "felt" Aizen as a constant pressure, even Tatsuki did. Stating that she could feel a huge pressure coming off Aizen, and his pressure was even to the point where physical objects disentergrated near him.

Alright. I'll bite.

Here, Issun can't feel Aizen. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c406/2.html)

Here, Issun explains it a bit more while talking to Hat @ Clogs. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c406/3.html)

Here, Tatsuki notes that she can't feel Ichigo. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c417/6.html)

Here, she goes into it a bit further. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c417/7.html) Aizen had lowered his strength enough at that point so that others could percieve it. 'cause he's kind of a ****.

Here, Aizen says the fact, (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c417/9.html) but the fridge horror of his situation hasn't hit him because his head's still stuck up his butt. At least until Ichigo pulls an Optimus Prime. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c417/14.html)

And he goes into it a little further here. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c417/10.html)

This is the point where he thinks he figured it out. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c418/2.html)

Just like this is the point where he thinks he destroyed the mountains. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c418/8.html)

And he continues to harp here about being a dimension above. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c418/11.html)

And then this happens. That Aizen doesn't understand what's going on right in front of him. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c418/14.html)

And then Ichigo smashes his strongest Kido, even with a fully powered chant, effortlessly. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c418/17.html)Something that couldn't possibly done without Reiatsu.

And then Ichigo reveals that it was his blade, not Aizen's, that destroyed the mountains. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c418/18.html)

And even the idea of Ichigo losing his Reiatsu is fully questioned here. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v45/c419//)

There's a point that would settle it, when Aizen was with the other commanders, talking about how he was in 3 dimensions with them and they couldn't percieve him because they were in 2 dimensions, but I have to leave for college, so I don't have time to look it up.


Could he have been wrong? Yes. But that's speculation, and conjecture based on events after an obvious power up.

As pointed out, that is infact not true.


Also that's "volumes" at up to 50, check how many pages each has.

Thanks for that correction. I'll check it when I get a minute.


Not even touching the 'physics' argument with a ten foot polearm, and instead asking a question:

On Madara- do we mean 'Edo Tensie'd' Madara Uchiha? Or Tobi 'Troll'in' Currently nameless?

Based on the mentions of the Rinnegan, I'm guessing Tobi?

In which case, I also want to add that, and I've been out of the loop for a while so this might be off, didn't he have a 'Phase out of reality for up to 5 minutes' hax ability? If he still has that, I'd argue he has a good shot against Aizen.

We're actually referencing Edo Tensei Madara Uchiha, who actually had the Rinnengan and Hasharami Senju Cells giving him Wood Jutsu and Izanagi before his death, whenever that was.

Also, Tobitobitobitobitobito. :smallannoyed:

Fan
2012-08-30, 02:52 PM
It says in all those things that they can't get a gauge on it, that it's like nothing is there because the scope of it is too vast.

Also, everyone seemed to be able to perceive it after he broke out of the "cocoon" I imagine that is more what was isolating his reaitsu that it being too vast. In fact, it's almost like it's what it's designed to do, and Tatsuki's statement about feeling the huge pressure from Aizen is the only thing we have for Aizen after that power up post Gin's attack. Hitting a "shell" is most likely not going to do anything, and there is very little reason it would.

Saying it couldn't be done without Reiatsu is speculation. Hollows have been hurt by telephone poles, and Shinigami have been damaged by impact with buildings. Living things are perfectly capable of harming them, it's just difficult because they're invisible.

Also don't compare Ichigo to Optimus. That's just criminal. The hell did Optimus ever do to you?

Anyways, ALL OF THIS IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

It was a sword swing, there were no special techniques applied, no getsuga tensho, no cero, no anything else.

There is no reason that is fathomable, that says science can't apply to a sword swing.

Saying "They use magic in other places" is literally meaningless.

Traab
2012-08-31, 12:18 PM
Relying on genre conventions as a counter argument isn't very stable.

As for Gai, friction causes ignition, it has nothing to do with how fast he's moving, but how fast he's striking that he ignites.

His movement speed at 8 gates is actually one of the things calc'd in at 4 something odd mach.

Saying "Science doesn't work because they also have magic" also doesn't work because at the same time they have gravity and other universal constants, just because they have an internal means of producing energy on par with a nuclear reactor or small star doesn't mean anything. Through magic, they control those forces, and from there exert them as a by product with Reiatsu, and "killing intent".

Physics exist, and can be applied ESPECIALLY in the case of Dangai Ichigo as he was exerting no external reaitsu at the time (by word of God.), and was thus pure physical swing speed rather than a reiatsu pulse or other magic.


Except these "universal constants" dont apply consistently in anime. Even something as simple as tree hopping makes no freaking sense at all. First of all, how the hell are the trees shaped that you can literally jump from one tree branch to another tree and its branches without getting a face full of leaves? Secondly, how do they manage to leap these distances in a near straight line, ignoring gravity? They arent hopping 50 feet in the air and 50 feet across, they are hopping like 5 feet in the air and 50 feet straight across. (Numbers being said at random to illustrate the point) Clearly, gravity and its rules dont actually follow here because of naruto world "magic" that lets them ignore such paltry things as physics.

The truth is that the writers and animators arent going for real world physics plus magic, they are going for magic and generally but not always, follow physics as a point of reference. They arent trying to accurately draw the results of what would happen if their character was actually capable of that. It really is more of a rule of cool setup. "Hey, wouldnt it be awesome if superman could fly faster than a supersonic bullet?" Then they dont cover what sort of issues a human shaped target moving twice the speed of sound would cause in an enclosed area as he catches dozens of rounds of ammunition. The physics dont match up entirely with what their abilities are supposed to be.

Candle Jack
2012-08-31, 12:25 PM
Naraku from InuYasha wonders why he wasn't invited to the party.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-31, 01:32 PM
It says in all those things that they can't get a gauge on it, that it's like nothing is there because the scope of it is too vast.

Which was kind of my point.


Also, everyone seemed to be able to perceive it after he broke out of the "cocoon" I imagine that is more what was isolating his reaitsu that it being too vast. In fact, it's almost like it's what it's designed to do, and Tatsuki's statement about feeling the huge pressure from Aizen is the only thing we have for Aizen after that power up post Gin's attack. Hitting a "shell" is most likely not going to do anything, and there is very little reason it would.

Actually, as a matter of fact, Ichigo was seen commenting on Aizen's Power with Gin while Aizen was still in Shell Form. Gin noted being a bit interested that Ichigo could understand Aizen, and even Isshun was a bit surprised at it. Probably what prompted him to chase after Aizen, since, as he put it, only someone with a power level on par with Aizen would be able to sense his power.


Saying it couldn't be done without Reiatsu is speculation. Hollows have been hurt by telephone poles, and Shinigami have been damaged by impact with buildings. Living things are perfectly capable of harming them, it's just difficult because they're invisible.

I did not say harming a shinigami. I said breaking out of the Big Bad's Strongest Kido given a Full Incantation. Name a few times in which something even remotely like this has been done with someone who has no spiritual pressure at all (and Ichigo breaking free from Rukia's binding spell is infact not an example, given that he could detect the dead long before that point, and thus wasn't completely empty for a mortal).


Also don't compare Ichigo to Optimus. That's just criminal. The hell did Optimus ever do to you?

I just like it when people grab other people's faces.


Anyways, ALL OF THIS IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

It really is, considering how beside the Point (Aizen vs Madara) this is.


It was a sword swing, there were no special techniques applied, no getsuga tensho, no cero, no anything else.

There is no reason that is fathomable, that says science can't apply to a sword swing.

Saying "They use magic in other places" is literally meaningless.

Considering being in his Shinigami State, which magnifies his natural spiritual pressure, let alone having come off of 3 extra months of training in an hour, enhances -everything- about him, including his swordsmanship, I'm inclined to completely disagree, not simply on the grounds that Traab and Xondure have already made pretty clear.


Naraku from InuYasha wonders why he wasn't invited to the party.

One Anime God Modder at a time, please. Though, this could be tournament style if we found a few more... who is the most broken Villain of all time!?!

Fan
2012-08-31, 01:49 PM
Swordsmanship is based upon 3 months of solid combat, not anything magical.

If he had used a technique of some sort? I'd see your argument as having some grounds, but he merely swung his sword, one of the trade marks of Bleach is that even special sword swings that do nothing but swing the sword visually have techniques that are explained, and gloated about. (See: Zaraki Kenpachi's sword technique. Which is literally NOTHING but using a sword two handed, and required a multi page explanation.)

If there was a special technique in use, the author would've used it as a chance to use mirrored images to fill up a few pages with text blocks. Tite Kubo loves doing this, that, and Desert landscapes.

As for what Traab and Xon explained? They explained nothing. They used situational evidence based around techniques who have MAGIC stamped on them in huge letters as being their primary output. This is true with kiduo, this is true with getsuga, this is true with Senbon Sakura. If it was a magical technique in ANY WAY AT ALL. If you could even turn your head, look at it kinda funny, and see some of Ichigo's reiatsu, you could be right. But you can measure the OUTPUT of anything. I don't care if it's magical fairy dust's net energy conversion when burned, to how much energy is put out by Superman's heat vision. It can be done, and magic existing doesn't invalidate science that measures it's output.

But you're not. It's a vanilla sword swing that's done fast enough to level a plateau.

But a vanilla sword swing with no reiatsu pulse, no technique build up, no implied anything in the vaugest sense is physical ability. Spiritually augmented ability, but ability.

Xondoure
2012-08-31, 02:06 PM
So... what's your point here? That because no magic was used the speed counts more? Even when translating all your spirit power to physical power (in the spirit world) seems to me like magic. I must admit I'm rather lost.

Fan
2012-08-31, 02:44 PM
So... what's your point here? That because no magic was used the speed counts more? Even when translating all your spirit power to physical power (in the spirit world) seems to me like magic. I must admit I'm rather lost.

The fact that it is magically augmented means less than nothing.

using physics you could figure out how much energy is output by Fireball by caster level.

It doesn't matter so long as you're not allowing physics to RESTRAIN magic.

Xondoure
2012-08-31, 02:47 PM
The fact that it is magically augmented means less than nothing.

using physics you could figure out how much energy is output by Fireball by caster level.

It doesn't matter so long as you're not allowing physics to RESTRAIN magic.

Agreed. However that doesn't stop physics from being a joke in series like Bleach and Naruto.

Fan
2012-08-31, 02:56 PM
Agreed. However that doesn't stop physics from being a joke in series like Bleach and Naruto.

That doesn't mean that the clac is wrong, and yes, physics are oft abused for things like violation of conservation of energy, and MANY, MANY other principles.

However, they still produce energy with measurable effects.

He could've farted out a rock to do the same thing, and you could still measure it.

Xondoure
2012-08-31, 03:07 PM
That doesn't mean that the clac is wrong, and yes, physics are oft abused for things like violation of conservation of energy, and MANY, MANY other principles.

However, they still produce energy with measurable effects.

He could've farted out a rock to do the same thing, and you could still measure it.

The problem with the measurements is the rule of cool means that what we see the character do may not be consistent with what the character is supposed to be capable of. Because the artists didn't think things through to that level, or we could be seeing everything slowed down for audience convenience ala Dragon Ball since we wouldn't be able to observe it if we followed along in real time.

Quite simply, there are too many unknowable variables for accurate data.

SynissterSyster
2012-08-31, 04:22 PM
@Fan:

Calculator or no you are bringing a knife to a rocket launcher fight. You can't pick and choose which laws of physics to bring up. By the fact that this character used augmented ability to be damn fast means that the energy released should have destroyed that character. Just by being "realistic". I cannot weight in on whom would win this fight. But I am in no way going to sit and want it to be based on something that is thrown out in the books.

Traab
2012-08-31, 09:13 PM
As for what Traab and Xon explained? They explained nothing. They used situational evidence based around techniques who have MAGIC stamped on them in huge letters as being their primary output. This is true with kiduo, this is true with getsuga, this is true with Senbon Sakura. If it was a magical technique in ANY WAY AT ALL

Yeah... the problem is, its the "magic" that is causing all the problems here. Even something as simple as Lees speed comes under this heading. It is physically impossible for a guy to wear so much weight on his ankles that the earth shatters when he removes them. Even if he could, every step he takes would crack the ground, he could topple trees by standing too far up on the trunk from the sheer weight dragging him down. And even if all that wasnt the case, he still wouldnt be running so fast that he can create a wake of dust in the air like a freaking sports car booking it across the desert.

You cant apply real world physics to things that cant happen in the real world, by basing it off of visual evidence in the cartoon. Do you honestly think kishimoto spends his times researching physics so he can figure out what effects he needs to draw to illustrate the actual speed of his fast characters? You cant just say, "Well, we dont hear a sonic boom, therefore he is clearly not breaking the sound barrier" Because very few writers actually go that deep into the minutiae to make it match up with what would happen in the real world. You cant say, "Well, just because he is blurry fast doesnt mean he goes that quickly, we would only see a blur at a far lower speed than mach 3." Why? Because it isnt US that are seeing nothing but a blur, its people in the naruto world. A world where ninja have taijutsu attacks so fast they can do moves like the 8 trigrams 64 palms so quickly that you cant block or interrupt it. The last shot of it strikes 64 times in an instant pretty much. People in that world are able to track that kind of speed, they can match or even exceed it in that world, that means to be moving so fast that people cant even follow the movements, you have to be going so insanely fast that superman might blink and miss it.

Its like the strength scale. For us, being able to lift 400 pounds would be incredibly impressive. In comic book land, spiderman is at the low end of the scale bench pressing 10-15 TONS. So when someone like spiderman says a guy is insanely strong, he isnt referring to OUR scale of seeing a guy pick up 600 pounds of weight, his scale is probably closer to 50-60 tons or more. Thats the difference context makes. Lee is considered obnoxiously fast in a world where our greatest olympic sprinters would be left in the dust by the average new genin. So you cant just use OUR basic measurements to judge his actual speed.

Mikeavelli
2012-08-31, 10:09 PM
That doesn't mean that the clac is wrong, and yes, physics are oft abused for things like violation of conservation of energy, and MANY, MANY other principles.

However, they still produce energy with measurable effects.


No. Absolutely not.

When the basic axioms of physics like conservation of energy are thrown out the window, the calc is not even wrong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong), it's irrelevant.

Even basic equations like F=ma are no longer applicable, because energy is no longer being conserved. It's no longer an equation, both sides of that statement can change without affecting the other side, Force is no longer equal to mass times acceleration.

Every equation in physics is derived from physical laws, and when those laws are invalid, every equation based on them is also invalid.

Fjolnir
2012-09-01, 12:27 AM
there would be an "under the impression" loop for both of them... outside observers would see them both standing in place forever, the rest of the world builds a sealed vault around them and gets on with their lives...

Fan
2012-09-01, 02:51 AM
The problem with the measurements is the rule of cool means that what we see the character do may not be consistent with what the character is supposed to be capable of. Because the artists didn't think things through to that level, or we could be seeing everything slowed down for audience convenience ala Dragon Ball since we wouldn't be able to observe it if we followed along in real time.

Quite simply, there are too many unknowable variables for accurate data.

The fact that you guys even think that energy output being immeasurable due to it being magic is hilarious to me. I don't know how this can be a sane line of thought.

I find it a joke to even consider it any other way, and no Mikeaviali, it has a constrained amount of destruction it put out, you can measure the minimum amount of force that would be required, and use that to figure out the speed that the sword itself was swung going by the rest of the calc.

You are wrong, and I'll leave it at that, just because the methods of producing that energy are physically impossible doesn't mean the energy does not have a measurable effect on it's surroundings, and that effect was correctly measured. No I'm not saying it's limited by it, but as an absolute baseline that is what's required to do what is done in the manga. I'm not drawing evidence from the cartoon AGAIN. It's the manga, and unless word of god refutes me, or you give me a reason beyond genre conventions (which aren't valid in a versus thread anyways.), or memes like "Rule of Cool" you guys will still not have refuted it. It has a MINIMUM of Mach 10.

No, I don't think Kishimoto spends time doing this, but I also know that he has no official stance on it, and has given no contradictory word of god.

Also, you can ALSO measure how fast someone would need to move get the 64 trigrams done, it is not "instantaneous", it is not "immeasurable", because that is a no limits fallacy, and one based upon a dodgey cop out argument of "You can't do it because it's magic.".

As for the Superman comment? I'll go ahead and stop you right there. Superman V.S. Wonder Woman in "The Sacrifice", to the sun, and back, and with another part of the fight happening on Earth again. 1 minute 54 seconds by in comic statement. Assuming even 5 of those seconds occured on the ground fight, that is 5 times the speed of light, and that's not even his highest showing. He was able to fight, change direction, and interact at these speeds given he was fighting Wonder Woman while it happened. Naruto isn't even close to a 5000th of that. The entire universe at once wouldn't so much as make him blink.

It may violate conventional laws, but you can take the MINIMUM it would be required to break that, and then from there you can say "This is what it requires to do this. The means for producing the energy are clearly magical, but the energy was exerted, and this is it's measurable limited effect.". Anything else is an Existential Fallacy, assuming that because one universal constant isn't met, others are (Without Reiatsu to walk on, they fall. They all have definitive method of drawing energy.) all but garunteed to not exist. It makes no sense to assume that, and it's a logical fallacy.

Xondoure
2012-09-01, 03:57 AM
So let me see if I have this straight. You are claiming that Ichigo moved so fast that the force of his sword reacting against the air caused a force wave that took out a chunk of the surrounding area and using that force measurement to predict Ichigo's speed correct? You do realize the problem lies with a) this is a world comprised of spirit particles, we don't actually know exactly what that means to the formulas you are using b) even assuming transparency between our atoms and theirs (ignoring that strong people have more but are not more dense which clearly proves it's not the same) no matter how fast you swung the sword that isn't what would happen.

And therefore the problem is much like a strongman who pounds the hammer target on those carnival "test your strength" gizmos and shatters the whole thing. Yeah obviously in universe that means he's strong, but in our world all that means is the machine was really bizarrely designed, because outside of smashing the pedal and maybe a dent in the gong, the machine should remain in one piece.

You can't calculate how strong he is from the force required to shatter the machine, because you don't know how the force was distributed.

Fan
2012-09-01, 04:51 AM
So let me see if I have this straight. You are claiming that Ichigo moved so fast that the force of his sword reacting against the air caused a force wave that took out a chunk of the surrounding area and using that force measurement to predict Ichigo's speed correct? You do realize the problem lies with a) this is a world comprised of spirit particles, we don't actually know exactly what that means to the formulas you are using b) even assuming transparency between our atoms and theirs (ignoring that strong people have more but are not more dense which clearly proves it's not the same) no matter how fast you swung the sword that isn't what would happen.

And therefore the problem is much like a strongman who pounds the hammer target on those carnival "test your strength" gizmos and shatters the whole thing. Yeah obviously in universe that means he's strong, but in our world all that means is the machine was really bizarrely designed, because outside of smashing the pedal and maybe a dent in the gong, the machine should remain in one piece.

You can't calculate how strong he is from the force required to shatter the machine, because you don't know how the force was distributed.

Please actually read the calc. We have science to determine exactly how this would work. I have it all explained, you just have to know the math. *sigh*

They were in a part of real space teleported into Soul Society at the time, so "Everything is made of spirit particles" makes no sense.

And if you swung a sword at mach 10, you'd be surprised what'd happened.

You clearly don't really understand what happens when something goes mach 10 Xon, we don't even possess scramjets that can do that in atmosphere, and when something breaks the sound barrier in any proximity to any fragile? it shatters. Now multiply that by 10.

BlackDragonKing
2012-09-01, 12:50 PM
Aizen is immortal, has completely implausible godlike powers for the setting, and will make up new abilities when he starts to lose until the Author decides to give the hero a break. The only reason he didn't solo the entire universe was his own arrogant stupidity.

Madara is immortal, has completely implausible godlike powers for the setting, and will make up new abilities when he starts to lose until the Author decides to give the hero a break. The only reason he didn't solo the entire universe was his own arrogant stupidity.

Both villains have so much authorial favoritism on their side that the universe throws a hissy fit when the heroes manage to inconvenience them a little. The fight would basically go on forever, with neither getting an advantage because neither has any real weaknesses and they get new powers whenever they're supposed to be losing.

Basically, you'd come back later to find Aizen as a ten-thousand winged quincyhollowshinigamifullbringer whose power is to blow up the entire universe and remake it as he desires by blinking while Madara has all of the powers. All of them.

Life will cease to be, whether because of the God Mode powers they keep making up, or because the sheer smugness of the combatants will crush out any desire to live from anyone else.

I'm sorry I don't really have any kind of analysis to bring to this particular matchup, but you need real characters for that. Aizen and Madara aren't real characters because they exist to be plot devices that can't even be slowed down a little until the Author gets bored of them curb-stomping everyone and their dog easily.

Mikeavelli
2012-09-01, 01:29 PM
stuff

basically, dE != 0.

Since physical laws no longer apply, physical laws no longer apply. I don't know why this needs to be stated.

You've used the equation P = F/A, but it's no longer applicable. Since dE != 0, P != F/A. The Pressure is changing entirely according to bleach physics, the numbers on each side are entirely unrelated to each other. It's entirely possible for the Pressure to be 0 while the shockwave is being generated, because MAGIC!

Lastly, I'm not an aerospace engineer, but the Pitot Tube (http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/sensors/pitot_tubes/pitot_tubes_theory.cfm) equation you've used appears to be a specific case for measuring the air speed of an airplane, and isn't applicable to the general case of a shockwaves everywhere. Especially not the specific case of a shockwave generated by a magical sword strike. I AM an Engineer however, and can tell you using the wrong specific case equation for a physical circumstance is a great way to get totally bogus results.

Xondoure
2012-09-01, 01:50 PM
Please actually read the calc. We have science to determine exactly how this would work. I have it all explained, you just have to know the math. *sigh*

They were in a part of real space teleported into Soul Society at the time, so "Everything is made of spirit particles" makes no sense.

And if you swung a sword at mach 10, you'd be surprised what'd happened.

You clearly don't really understand what happens when something goes mach 10 Xon, we don't even possess scramjets that can do that in atmosphere, and when something breaks the sound barrier in any proximity to any fragile? it shatters. Now multiply that by 10.

They were in a copy of real space, that's not the same thing. And yeah, a lot of energy would be flying around, that I don't dispute. Would it look like that? Color me highly doubtful. For one I'd expect the air to ignite. So clearly it isn't mach 10 because the consequences aren't being played out realistically. :smalltongue:

See what I did there? You can't have it both ways. I get that you know how to do the calculations. But they are not, and will never be applicable to manga. Or any time when our rules don't apply (double here, one for the powers, one for the medium.)

Fan
2012-09-01, 03:29 PM
They were in a copy of real space, that's not the same thing. And yeah, a lot of energy would be flying around, that I don't dispute. Would it look like that? Color me highly doubtful. For one I'd expect the air to ignite. So clearly it isn't mach 10 because the consequences aren't being played out realistically. :smalltongue:

See what I did there? You can't have it both ways. I get that you know how to do the calculations. But they are not, and will never be applicable to manga. Or any time when our rules don't apply (double here, one for the powers, one for the medium.)

The air wouldn't ignite at Mach 10.

You don't know what realistic consequences would be Xon. I'm not being mean here, you really seem to not know.

The medium being used as an excuse, is a logical fallacy.

It may be powered by magic, but it puts out a limited, defined, and extremely measurable effect, we can get the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM it would take for something like that to happen (using say, an instrument to crush rock.), and we can gauge it using that.

Mikeavelli
2012-09-01, 03:42 PM
The air wouldn't ignite at Mach 10.



I'm not going to bother doing Math because it's Saturday and this is silly. Quickly googling frictional heating gives us: this (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/qotw/question/3046/)


Kevin - I'm Kevin Knowles. I'm professor of aeromechanical systems for Cranfield University and I work at the Defence Academy of UK in Shrivenham, Oxfordshire. In essence, the answer to the question is that aircraft wings are cold because they fly high in the atmosphere, the region known as the troposphere, and atmospheric temperatures fall with altitude in the lower atmosphere. So an aircraft flying at about 10 kilometres which is typical above the ground, a day where itís only 15 degrees Celsius at sea level, will be experiencing temperatures of about minus 50 Celsius outside. If however, you move fast enough in excess of the speed of sound then there's a significant kinetic heating effect and that's what spacecrafts experience. For example, if an aircraft were again flying at 10 kilometres altitude, but now at nearly at 7 times the speed of sound, then the temperature that it would feel due to kinetic heating, the highest temperature would be about 10 times the ambient temperature, but measured in degrees Kelvin. Now 10 kilometres altitude, the temperature in Kelvin is 223, so Mach 7 spacecrafts would experience 10 times that, so its heat temperature would be 2,200 Kelvin or about 2,000 degrees centigrade. At 10 kilometres, those two effects balance out if you're flying at about Mach 1.2, so at that speed, the kinetic heating is just enough to bring the peak skin temperature up to sea level temperature.

2,000 C at Mach 7 is well beyond the autoignition temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature) of many common materials.

Fan
2012-09-01, 03:46 PM
I'm not going to bother doing Math because it's Saturday and this is silly. Quickly googling frictional heating gives us: this (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/qotw/question/3046/)



2,000 C at Mach 7 is well beyond the autoignition temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature) of many common materials.

For the atmosphere to ignite within the span of a sword crossing the distance of impact to another sword in that point of time?

No, it would not ignite, the numbers there assume friction from acceleration.

Traab
2012-09-01, 07:29 PM
The air wouldn't ignite at Mach 10.

You don't know what realistic consequences would be Xon. I'm not being mean here, you really seem to not know.

The medium being used as an excuse, is a logical fallacy.

It may be powered by magic, but it puts out a limited, defined, and extremely measurable effect, we can get the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM it would take for something like that to happen (using say, an instrument to crush rock.), and we can gauge it using that.

The problem with your statement that everything puts out a measurable effect is you are assuming the artwork reflects both reality, and what the author intended. Meaning that everything is drawn/animated in a way that matches the real world physics representation of the effect, ie a character who is supposedly breaking the sound barrier is making a sonic boom effect of some sort, and that the visual effect matches what the author intended, such as lee dropping his weights and creating a crater of an appropriate size to demonstrate that he just removed roughly 4k lbs of weight.

That assumption is flawed because manga writers, by and large, are not physics majors, and have no idea of either the actual numbers required to be capable of x action, nor are they able to perfectly draw said effect along the lines of what their character is actually doing. They include things like mountains being sliced in half to demonstrate how powerful a guy is, then in the next panel make a mention of a level of strength that would be incapable of creating said level of effect.

In some cases you can use the various measurements you enjoy employing on these threads. But it doesnt always work because the world isnt being drawn according to a constant scale. Im sure if I actually cared enough to do so, I could nitpick my way through all of bleach and point out hundreds of inconsistencies in strength levels of the various characters. Not because the author is retconning, or creating plot holes, but because physics doesnt work that way in a cartoon world. You cant get specific reliable measurements like that because they will constantly change due to the fact that the world itself isnt being animated along a consistent set of physics.

Xondoure
2012-09-01, 08:36 PM
@Fan: You're right. Having never seen nor heard of any account where a sword was swung at ten times the speed of sound, I have next to little idea what the measurable effects would be. However that's sort of the point: neither do the mangaka's that are drawing this stuff. (And I stand by my statement that a sword swing blast wouldn't look like that or have that effect.)

Mikeavelli
2012-09-02, 04:11 AM
For the atmosphere to ignite within the span of a sword crossing the distance of impact to another sword in that point of time?

No, it would not ignite, the numbers there assume friction from acceleration.


The acceleration a plane (or any object really) experiences while in equilibrium would be fairly small compared to the acceleration required to reach mach 10 in the timespan of a sword swing.

Just dealing with that acceleration, kinematics style;
Mach 10 = 3402 m/s.

v^2 = v0^2+2a(x-x0)
assuming v0 = 0 and x0 = 0, and the distance traveled is 1 meter;

3402.0^2 = 0 + 2a(1)

a = 5,786,802 m/s/s

Basically, when an object is maintaining a constant velocity, you've got balanced forces from the propulsion (engines in the case of a jet) and friction, which is proportional to the static velocity. When an object is changing velocity (accelerating), it experiences forces proportional to the square of the change in velocity.