PDA

View Full Version : General system remake



Yitzi
2012-08-26, 05:38 PM
Since Kane0 made a thread for general feedback on his ideas for his system rework, I figured I could do the same for mine. So here are the major changes; any ideas or feedback is appreciated. Because I'm changing a lot, I'm organizing this into sections:

General character/adventuring information
1. The system will use point buy as its primary feature. As you gain levels, you get more points (this replaces the boost every 4 levels in normal 3e), and also can transfer points from one ability or feat (see below) to another at a limited rate.
2. Feats are completely redone; they now refer specifically to certain primarily noncombat miscellaneous abilities (such as magic item creation or speed boosts), which are bought with points just as ability scores are. (Combat feats have been replaced by combat styles, discussed below.)
3. Races have been given more distinct special abilities to distinguish them; for instance, dwarves get both spell resistance and scaling energy resistance, while humans get a choice (changeable between adventures) of three "adaptability" abilities that help them in situations where their primary choices are not so useful (for instance, one of the abilities lets them use their INT modifier instead of skill ranks whenever it's higher, possibly letting them use a skill untrained).
4. In addition to race, a character picks a background and primary class. The background gives bonuses to certain skills and possibly feats, while the primary class gives a bonus (depending on the class) when the first level in that class is taken.
5. Going up a level requires not only reaching the appropriate experience threshold, but also spending time (up to the GM, but the suggested amount is a year) training. Naturally, this system is not designed for "1 to 20 in 10 months" campaigns.
6. Experience is given not as a number of XP points, but as percentage to the next level. It is assigned not by encounter, but by goals: Each adventure has one or more goals, and each goal is worth a certain amount of experience if completed. It is suggested that each goal be worth roughly 1% for each level-appropriate encounter that is expected to need to be beaten to achieve it (or less if the encounter is shared with another goal), but innovative solutions that bypass encounters still give full experience for the goal, and extra encounters due to the characters messing up don't give any extra experience.
7. Leadership has been changed; each character can have (if circumstances provide) up to one cohort and a number of followers based on level; by taking the Leadership feat, this is doubled (and the feat can be taken multiple times to further increase it.) Cohorts, as NPCs (yes, that means the DM controls them) who stay with the PC for who he is as a person, do require heavy RP maintenance, so having a lot of cohorts may be inadvisable even if one's Leadership permits it.
8. Alignments have been reworked to reduce ambiguous cases and create more fundamental differences between the alignments.

General combat mechanics
9. The three saves are now Fortitude (primarily used against physical conditions, such as poison or nausea), Insight (primarily used against charm and illusion effects), and Will (primarily used against other direct magical effects, usually negating them on a successful save). Saves are also substantially higher; a poor save is level/2, and a good save is a base bonus equal to class level.
10. There is a "reflex" system where you can effectively ready an action to trigger on a particular effect without having to take an action the previous round (you do lose the corresponding action the next round, though, so the total action economy is unaffected). The number of reflexes you can have stored depends on your class and level (similar to a base save bonus), while the chance of successfully acting before the trigger completes depends on your total bonus plus an ability modifier (DEX for physical actions, CHA for mental/magical ones) as compared to the character performing the trigger. Initiative also makes use of the Reflex modifier, but with WIS as the key ability score.
11. Hit dice are now all d4s, but more martial classes give more dice per level (the possibilities are 2 dice, 1.5 dice, or 1 die; the total is rounded down.) The CON modifier is added to each die, so a level 20 fighter with high CON has a lot of hit points.
12. All healing effects scale with the recipient's hit dice. Healing per round does not scale with the healer's level as well, but the number of rounds healed per cast of a healing spell does scale.
13. You aren't dead until your negative hit points are twice your full hit points, but damage taken by a helpless character is also multiplied by the character's hit dice. (So even at level 20, you're not likely to be killed in the same blow that knocks you out, but it's quite quick to kill an unconscious character if you want to.)
14. All attacks have DEX as the key ability, rather than STR, but get twice as much bonus to STR (so off-hand attacks get a bonus to damage equal to STR modifier, one-handed, thrown weapons, and composite bow get twice the STR modifier, and 2-handed weapons get 3 times the STR modifier.)
15. Armor provides damage reduction instead of AC (which has therefore been renamed to defense). Certain weapons can partially ignore this. A character wielding a light weapon with an appropriate combat style can take a penalty to their attack roll to reduce this DR on a 1-for-1 basis.
16. If you beat the target's defense, you add the difference to your damage as precision damage. Sneak attacks multiply this damage instead of adding bonus dice. If the base damage is completely negated by armor, the precision damage is also negated. (What happens when a weapon partially ignores armor depends on the weapon.)
17. You have combat skill (replaces BAB) equal to half your hit dice, rounded down. Your base defense is equal to 10 plus half your combat skill (rounded down, and you can also use combat skill each round on a number of other effects (the total spent on all the other effects cannot exceed your total combat skill): You can boost your attack bonus for all attacks that round (this replaces adding your BAB to attacks), boost your damage for all attacks that round, or boost your defense against one enemy, on a 1-for-1 basis (the defense boost against a single enemy cannot exceed half your combat skill, rounded up). You can also spend 5 points of combat boost to get an additional attack that round (this replaces iterative attacks).
18. Attacks and spellcasting are normally full-round actions, but can be taken as standard actions (or as part of a charge, in the case of melee attacks) for -2 to the attack roll or caster level.
18a. d20 rolls are replaced by 3d6. Rolling 2 6s on the 3d6 means you roll an exploding d6 (you roll a d6, and if it's a 6 you keep rolling until you get something other than a 6 and add all the results) and add it, rolling 2 1s on the 3d6 means you roll an exploding d6 and subtract it. If you roll an 18 on your 3d6 you roll again and add 18; if you roll a 3 on your 3d6 you roll again and subtract 18. This replaces rules about natural 20s and natural 1s.

Classes
19. The number of classes has been reduced some, with barbarian's combat abilities folded into fighter and its noncombat abilities made into a background, and bard removed (the closest equivalent will be a rogue). Paladin is no longer a class, but rather a template that has some very nice abilities for low LA, but at the cost of extremely inconvenient RP requirements.
20. Every class now has a powerful capstone ability (or, in the case of fighter, a choice of capstone abilities, one for each combat style); paladins also get a powerful ability at ECL 20 (assuming they have no sources of LA other than the paladin template).
21. Fighter now has good Will saves (in addition to Fort) and good reflexes, with added boosts against standard save-or-die effects (but still has poor Insight saves.) Pretty much all nonmagical combat abilities have been made into combat styles, at which fighters are by far the best.
22. Rogues get good Insight saves and more skill boosts, but are otherwise pretty much unchanged. They do benefit from minor improvements to skills and from the fact that magic lost its ability to step on their toes, though.
23. Rangers now have only 1.5 hit dice/level (equivalent to medium BAB), but get a selection of special abilities to use their skills (usually Survival) in new ways. Unlike druids, they can get animal companions, although without any supernatural abilities.
24. Monks are heavily reworked; their most important ability scores are now DEX, WIS, and CHA, and many of their class features consist of getting to use those three scores instead of the other three. They have all good saves and good reflexes.
25. Druids are not true spellcasters, but rather can enter a trance to commune with nature, giving them a repertoire of at-will abilities usable only when acting in the interest of nature. They have good Will and Fort saves, but poor Insight and poor reflexes. They no longer have Wild Shape or animal companions, although they can gain the temporary service of natural creatures (animals, plants, and oozes) and fey.
26. Clerics now have only 1 HD/level (equivalent to poor BAB) and poor Fort saves (but good Insight), but get (depending on their deity and probably a choice from a number of selections) either a bonus background or the ability to gestalt with another class at every other level. They now have multiple-attribute casting, relying on both CHA and WIS. Their spell selection is also very much dependent on which deity they serve.
27. Wizards have poor Insight saves, but are otherwise pretty much unchanged in terms of the chassis. They use Spellcraft to determine their caster level and can therefore get a caster level above class level, but they have easy save DCs (they don't get to add an ability modifier) and horrible spellpoint regeneration, so they're usually best just buffing the party.
28. Sorcerers are largely unchanged; with single-attribute casting and without the downsides of wizards, they're usually the best for blasting and debuffing.

Combat Styles

29. Combat feats have been replaced by combat styles, which serve as sort of a mix of scaling feats, feat chains, and ToB stances. Medium-combat-skill classes (rogue, ranger, monk) select a single combat style from a limited selection, warriors (the NPC class) select a single combat style with no restrictions, and fighters select a single combat style and get another style every 3 levels, plus the ability to spend skill points for more styles. Each style grants a number of abilities and boosts depending on combat skill (with the skill 20 ability being the capstone for the fighter.)
30. If someone is using a combat style against you, and you know that combat style, you can attempt to counter it with a DC 10 INT check. If successful, you subtract your combat skill from your opponents for determining their benefits from the style (if your combat skill is more than your opponent's, you counter it completely and they gain no benefit.) Some abilities, and a few entire styles, cannot be countered.
31. With a few exceptions, you can only use one combat style at a time; switching is a move action, or a free action if taken over the course of an entire round (during which you get the benefit of no style.)

Skills
32. Some skills have been combined, although to a lower degree than Pathfinder.
33. Profession now can (depending on which profession) have any ability except CON as its key ability. Craft has been folded into profession, and no longer can be used to make items. The one exception is Craft (Alchemy), which is now simply Alchemy (INT) and can be used not only to make alchemical items (which are greatly improved in variety and ability) but also poisons and some potions.
34. Diplomacy has added functionality in getting someone to accept a deal (similar to the Giant's fix); it can also now be used to worsen a target's attitude (to provoke a fight or even force them to attack you and not your allies.) Abuse of the skill is being fixed by removing most means of boosting one's skill checks and by formalizing some circumstance modifiers, although a high-level rogue or monk can still do some very impressive things.
35. Concentration is replaced by a Fort save; on a failed Fort save, the skill or spell does not automatically fail, but rather takes a penalty to the skill check or caster level equal to the difference between the save result and the DC. Casting/skill-using defensively is done by taking a penalty to caster level or the skill check and thereby providing the same penalty to AoOs in response to the spell/skill; if the combat skill bonus to an attack roll is less than the penalty, the AoO can't be taken at all. Cleric spellcasting reduces the effective class level (which caps the caster level) instead of the actual caster level, since for clerics the caster level is often well below class level.
36. The Heal skill can be used to heal characters to some extent without magic.
37. The Spellcraft skill can be used to unmake your own spells (takes longer than dismissing them, but you get back some of the spellpoints you put into them), as well as in place of an Insight save against magical effects. It is also used by wizards to determine caster level for spells, and wizards can specialize in different schools (having a lower score for some schools but higher for others).
38. You can only spend one skill point per level on each skill (an exception is a favored-class rogue, who gets 4X skill points the first level and so can spend up to 4 on each skill.) Thus, you couldn't multiclass between two classes to get full ranks in some skills of both.

Magic
39. Magic now uses seed-based casting. There are a number of seeds, which the caster puts together into spells. Sorcerers and clerics can do this freely; a wizard can only cast a spell he previously had in his spellbook (but adding to the spellbook is essentially free.)
40. Magic has been rearranged into 6 schools:
-Abjuration contains most of the old Abjuration, plus force effects from other schools.
-Conjuration contains teleportation, calling, and telekinesis effects, but not creation or healing. It also contains a few other effects, such as calling flames from the elemental plane of fire, and raising the dead is combined conjuration/transmutation.
-Creation contains creation effects. Evocation effects such as Fireball no longer exist as such, but can be imitated (and with no save and no SR) by creating an alchemical item and using Conjuration to propel it to the desired location. Illusory figments also fall under Creation.
-Divination is pretty much unchanged.
-Enchantment is largely unchanged, but now includes fear effects (formerly necromancy) and certain illusions (including most of the ones that allow saves without interaction).
-Transmutation contains most of the old transmutation plus most necromancy effects, and illusions that were previously in the glamer subschool, and healing effects.
41. Vancian casting has been replaced by a spellpoint system. Spellpoints are regained at a constant rate (1/day for wizards, levelXability modifier for sorcerers and clerics), with no extra for resting. Total spellpoint pool is dependent only on class level; sorcerer and wizard stack for this purpose.
42. Every spell has 3 "levels".
-The caster level represents the skill placed into the spell, and affects range and duration. For sorcerers it is equal to class level, for wizards it equals the Spellcraft check result minus 15 (a wizard can always take 10 on this check), and for clerics it's equal to Prayer Points (a WIS-based spellpoint analogue) spent, or class level if the cleric is acting in the direct interest of his deity. The caster level must be at least as high as the spell level; if it is lowered below that point by some circumstance (e.g. disruption, or a poor Spellcraft roll for a wizard), the spell fails. Each spell has a single caster level; it's not added up for each seed.
-The spell level represents the complexity of the spell, and is added up for each seed. It affects the effects of buffs and debuffs, as well as spellpoint expenditure by sorcerers, and must be at least as high as the spell power.
-The spell power represents the energy put into the spell, and is also added up for each seed. It affects the effects of damaging spells, as well as save DCs. It also determines spellpoint expenditure by wizards, and channeling point (a CHA-based spellpoint analogue) expenditure by clerics.
43. Spellpoints or prayer points (but not channeling points) used on a lasting effect are "invested" in the spell and cannot be regenerated until the spell ends. Thanks to Ziegander for the core idea here.
44. When using a noninstantaneous seed on a target, the spell levels for all seeds of the same school already in place on the same target are also added to the total spell level for purposes of the minimum caster level (but not for determining a sorcerer's spellpoint expenditure or the maximum spell power). Thus, stacking buffs of a particular school will soon result in being unable to achieve the necessary caster level to cast the spell.

Equipment and money
45. Nonmagical equipment now comes in multiple tiers, not just regular/masterwork. (Thanks to Seerow for the core idea.)
46. Wands and staves are now nonmagical items that are used to aid spellcasting; wands give a bonus to spellcraft checks for a particular school (for wizard casting), while staves boost the DC of spells.
47. Scrolls are simply another type of (usually quite old) book.
48. Potions now can only produce certain transmutation effects, but are nonmagical and made by the Alchemy skill.
49. Magical items (with the exception of certain artifacts, as determined by the GM) have some spell imbued in them, and grant the benefits of that spell to whoever wears or wields them. These benefits are subject to the usual spell stacking rules, so having a lot of magical items will usually result in only a few (often only one) of them working.
50. As a result of this, money for personal use becomes irrelevant after the first few levels, and is replaced either with money for strongholds and the like, or with other rewards.

So, thoughts?

Kane0
2012-08-27, 10:17 PM
1. Interesting. I'd like to see how this goes.
2. Fair enough, I'd like to see how you incporporate builds and other aspects of character customization without
3. Neat. No complaints
4. So, similar to D&D Next background/specialty & Pathfinders favored class?
5. Fair nuff.
6. Good idea, makes things much easier
7. Not bad. Some may find that giving everyone leadership is a bit much, but if they dont want it i guess just dont use it
8. :smallsmile:

9. Sounds a bit odd to take out reflex, but why not. Im guessing DCs get upped to match saves?
10. Not sure what to make of this. Im a fan of simplicity but i wouldnt mind seeing how it turns out
11. Sounds good. one and a half of a d4 sounds odd though, why not 1d4, 2d4 and 3d4?
12. Would be nice to see a different healing mechanic, but again im a fan of simplicity
13. I cant say taking more damage but having more HP to die sounds fun as a player, Id rather just have -Con plus character level before death or something
14. Sounds fine to me
15. Seen Armor as DR variant before, works pretty well
16. Fair enough
17. So you have a single pool of points that are used for attack, damage and defense? I hope there are enough to go around
18. How does moving factor in?

19. Sounds fair. I tried to do similar but I got outvoted
20. :smallsmile:
21. I like the combat styles idea
22. Woo!
23. Also Woo!
24. I dont play monk myself but I know a few people that would be happy
25. Nature Warlocks? Sounds fun
26. Interesting. Will have to see how that turns out
27. Id like to see how your spellpoints work. Not sure about leaving DCs behind though
28. Unchanged from 3.5? If that were the case id really miss the nice things pathfinder gives the sorc

29. Nice
30. Seems a bit superfluous
31. Sounds good

32. :smallsmile:
33. Nice
34. Cool. Would you be able to use Bluff or intimidate to provoke as well?
35. I prefer the Pathfinder way of handling concentration (a caster level check for the most part) but thats just me
36. Woo!
37. Unmaking spells is a nice touch

Your numbers got a little mixed up at this point :smallamused:
38. Nice and simple, i like
39. - Nice
- Yay!
- No more evocation? Makes me sad, but if it proves balanced then I cant whine
- Divination may need a boost
- No more necromancy? See point on Evocation
40. Sounds solid mechanically, though wizards get the short end of the stick with that one per day regeneration
41. Seems solid
- Also sound
- The Spell levels, caster levels, spell/channeling/prayer points are gettign confusing now

Equipment/Money
41. Good stuff
42. Also good
43. Used only to provide seeds? Thats fine
44. Also good
45. Huh, ok. Stops the rocket tag thing but also may be a little complicated down the track
46. Might have to find a use for the cash just to keep people happy, though not make it a big thing.

And those are my thoughts :smallsmile:

Eldan
2012-08-28, 04:33 AM
I will have to go over this again to give a detailed response, but one thing stands out to me right away: wizards with low insight.
Why? It seems to me that the greatest scholars and most intelligent people would have, you know, insight.

Yitzi
2012-08-28, 10:50 AM
2. Fair enough, I'd like to see how you incporporate builds and other aspects of character customization without

Without what? You seem to have stopped halfway through there. (It's happened to me too.)


4. So, similar to D&D Next background/specialty & Pathfinders favored class?

I didn't even know that D&D Next had a background system; I was actually thinking of a way to partially divorce the "nomadic" aspects of barbarian from the "berserker" aspects, as it makes sense to be able to have one without the other.

And it's not really like Pathfinder's favored class, as Pathfinder gives the bonus for each class level, while this gives a larger bonus for only one, and the bonus is also far more dependent on which class you take.


7. Not bad. Some may find that giving everyone leadership is a bit much, but if they dont want it i guess just dont use it

Yeah; having followers is somewhat of an investment, and a cohort is a huge investment, and often they won't be that useful for direct combat...but having them available can be useful. It's more for if your character gets given a city to rule as a reward than for an assistant when adventuring.


9. Sounds a bit odd to take out reflex

The idea is that reflex saves are being replaced with the reflex system, which is more versatile but also more all-or-nothing.


Im guessing DCs get upped to match saves?

No, actually they are not (although it is mitigated slightly by the lack of cloaks of resistance). As a result, in order to have a decent chance of hitting, you have to target the opponent's weak save, and the near-certain chance that tier 1 is used to is pretty much a lost cause. The way I see it, casters have versatility (and this increases that versatility tremendously), they don't need high power as well.


10. Not sure what to make of this. Im a fan of simplicity but i wouldnt mind seeing how it turns out

I figure it'll both be a more realistic alternative to reflex saves, and add an added level of strategy.


11. Sounds good. one and a half of a d4 sounds odd though, why not 1d4, 2d4 and 3d4?

Firstly, because it's meant to be proportional to combat skill, which replaces BAB. So that means the high one should be twice the low one. Secondly, because even in 3.5 you have (assuming a +1 CON modifier) the highest once being around twice the lowest ones, so I want to preserve that.


12. Would be nice to see a different healing mechanic, but again im a fan of simplicity

There will actually be a few healing mechanics here (I am a fan of relatively simple rules giving rise to extremely complex gameplay); the "proportional to hit dice" is based on the theory that hit dice represent ability to mitigate injury; as such, healing should not be similarly mitigated.

Or to put it another way, the actual damage you can take (measured by how much it takes to heal up from almost-dead to full) should depend only on your CON score, not on your hit dice.


13. I cant say taking more damage but having more HP to die sounds fun as a player, Id rather just have -Con plus character level before death or something

Con plus character level still means that a level 20 character is far more likely to be killed by the blow that knocks him out than a level 1 character is.
Also, this is also meant because of the "hit dice=ability to avoid damage" idea; if you're helpless, you can't avoid damage, so you take damage for each hit die. It's essentially the same idea as "fixed hit points, divide your damage by your 'hit dice' when not helpless", but without the annoying fractions and division.


17. So you have a single pool of points that are used for attack, damage and defense? I hope there are enough to go around

Generally there should be, because the minimum for each depends on what the opponent has, and he also has the same restrictions. Essentially, it should work out similar to the current system, except with half BAB to defense as well, and with free Power Attack (1-handed version) and Combat Expertise (without the restriction).


18. How does moving factor in?

If you move, you can't take a full-round action, so you need to take the -2 for a standard action.


21. I like the combat styles idea

Thanks.


25. Nature Warlocks?

Not quite. Firstly, the maximum abilities will be a far higher percentage (maybe even all) of the available ones, so you don't have to pick a selection of invocations. Secondly, you need to enter a trance to use the abilities (in fact, the druid "favored class" bonus will be that you're merely dazed when in the trance, and not stunned). Thirdly, nearly all abilities are only usable when directly serving nature. But yes, it is more warlock-like than any 3.5 Core class.


27. Id like to see how your spellpoints work.

Basically, you have a store dependent on your level, and regenerate at a race dependent on class, level, and CHA score. Wizards will have slow regeneration, but still start with the same store as sorcerers, so they'll favor things that preclude regeneration anyway or that allow recovery of the spellpoints spent when they're removed (i.e. buffs).


Not sure about leaving DCs behind though

They can get DCs only a few points behind sorcerers if they want, but it's expensive in terms of their limited spellpoints/adventure, so usually they won't bother. Wizards are meant to be primarily buffers (and to a lesser extent dispellers and magical consultants), so the poor DCs won't hurt them that much.


28. Unchanged from 3.5? If that were the case id really miss the nice things pathfinder gives the sorc

You mean the bloodline powers and feats? Those don't really seem to be that great. The big boost sorcerers are getting in this is essentially the exact opposite of one of the biggest complaints about them in 3e; a sorcerer can now cast any arcane spell he can cook up on the spot (assuming he's a high enough level.)


30. Seems a bit superfluous

Not really, as it gives an added bonus to knowing more styles, and will make fighter-on-fighter battles a lot more interesting, as each one tries to find a useful style that they know and the other one can't counter. Could the game work without it? Yes. But that would be both less realistic and less strategic (and hence less fun).




34. Cool. Would you be able to use Bluff or intimidate to provoke as well?

I don't think so. Making someone think something false isn't really a useful way of taunting, and scaring them will make them less likely to attack you. You can use intentionally failed bluff or intimidate checks to worsen their attitude, but it's not going to make them attack you against their better judgement.


35. I prefer the Pathfinder way of handling concentration (a caster level check for the most part) but thats just me

I still feel CON should have something to do with it, though, and the Pathfinder method ends up not helping with interrupted skills. This is sort of a hybrid between the 3.5 way and the Pathfinder way (as caster level does remain very important).

By the way, something I forgot to mention about skills and am adding now: You can only spend one skill point per level on each skill (an exception is a favored-class rogue, who gets 4X skill points the first level and so can spend up to 4 on each skill.) Thus, you couldn't multiclass between two classes to get full ranks in some skills of both.


Your numbers got a little mixed up at this point :smallamused:

I've been editing multiple times. Fixed.

38. Nice and simple, i like

- No more evocation?

I just can't really defend having separate schools for "creating matter" and "creating energy". Spells like Light will be moved to Creation, and one of the reasons I'm boosting alchemical items is so that evocation effects can be imitated by creation.

- Divination may need a boost

I doubt it. Even the 3.5 version is overpowered in areas (to the point where depowering the wizard needs to start with depowering divinations), so I may need to depower it some. I also may boost it some in terms of functionality in other areas; when I say it's pretty much the same I mean that it's not going to contain anything that wouldn't be divination if it existed in 3.5.


No more necromancy?

It's really not being removed so much as moved. Fear effects will be Enchantment, debuffs will be Transmutation, and negative energy will be Conjuration. So you can still have a necromancer raising the dead and cursing his enemies (a devoted necromancer would probably be a separate custom class), but it's not a separate school.


40. Sounds solid mechanically, though wizards get the short end of the stick with that one per day regeneration

On the flip side, a level 10 wizard (favored class wizard for +3 ranks in spellcraft) with a +5 INT modifier can get a caster level of 13 with a take 20, or more if he specializes or uses a wand. And because he pays based on spell power rather than spell level, he can boost his spell level up to his caster level at no cost, resulting in extremely powerful and reasonably cheap buffs.
Keep in mind, adventuring isn't something you do every month, so he should have time to regain spellpoints in between adventures. Although now that I think of it, even so it could be a problem at high levels, so I think I'll make it class level/2 rounded up. Still low enough that he's essentially "running on batteries" during an adventure, but he should at least be able to start each adventure with a full tank.


- The Spell levels, caster levels, spell/channeling/prayer points are gettign confusing now

Yeah, that is a potential problem. Although I suspect that once someone plays a bit they'll get used to it. Spell levels/caster levels/spell power is sort of like the spell level/augmentation level duality in psionics, except that here it's 3 rather than 2. And remember that no class uses all 3 types of points; arcane casters use only spellpoints, and clerics use only the other two.

Equipment/Money

43. Used only to provide seeds?

They could provide new seeds (although that'd be something that would need to be kept carefully controlled), or new spells for wizards (as designing a spell does take some research), or other esoteric or lost (not necessarily even magical) knowledge.


45. Huh, ok. Stops the rocket tag thing but also may be a little complicated down the track

Basically, a magical item is a permanent buff. It's useful for when you don't have a buffer in the party, and very useful for outfitting cohorts or elite followers, but not something you're spending most of your money on.


46. Might have to find a use for the cash just to keep people happy, though not make it a big thing.

Oh, there will be uses for cash. But instead of buying a +5 vorpal sword, you might instead buy a large plot of land and hire people to build a city there for your followers.

The way I see it, "solo adventurers who interact with people only to buy and sell goods" is a good model for the first few levels, but at higher levels most adventurers will be real leaders as well.


I will have to go over this again to give a detailed response, but one thing stands out to me right away: wizards with low insight.
Why? It seems to me that the greatest scholars and most intelligent people would have, you know, insight.

Not really. Ever hear of the absent-minded professor? Intelligent people will have intelligence, meaning the ability to figure things out. But to realize when someone's trying to get them to charge headfirst, or to detect an insidious charm spell or illusion...there intelligence won't help as much (although a wizard who hasn't neglected study of the Enchantment school will usually be able to detect and resist the spells by virtue of knowing how they work.)

Kane0
2012-08-28, 09:50 PM
2. Without adding in another or more subsystems.

4. Id e inclined to use ACFs or pathfinder-esque archetypes, but if it works then no objections

Spellcasting:
So wizards can still cast offensive spells, its just less effective? Sounds fair, just be careful so he can still do things that arent just buffs and vice versa for sorcs.
Id also like to see your seeds, sounds fun and might make some sense of the epic spellcasting seeds of 3rd ed to me lol.

On Combat Skill:
I'd love to see how this pans out.
On combat styles: I'd like to see what you have on these, mine feel victim to power creep :smallredface:

Yitzi
2012-08-28, 10:30 PM
2. Fair enough, I'd like to see how you incporporate builds and other aspects of character customization without adding in another or more subsystems.

You mean because you don't have the old-style feats? You do still have quite a number of choices to make. For instance:
-Background and race.
-Ability scores. There is more MAD than before, so deciding how to apportion your ability scores isn't always so simple.
-Combat style selection. (For fighters, this is the big one.)
-Skill selection. (For rogues, this is the big one.)
-Spells designed (in the case of wizards).
-Deity served and associated background/class (in the case of clerics).

You won't end up with feat-centered builds like 3.5, but there should still be quite a bit of room for builds and customization. Unlike many 3.5 builds, though, the "min" aspect of min/maxing will be as important as the "max" aspect, as there are no abilities that can be relied on to hit the first time (well, at least not until you hit the capstone...and even then there are enemies against which it's not reliable.)


Id e inclined to use ACFs or pathfinder-esque archetypes

I don't really think so, as the idea here is that it's the class that the character's been training toward before he hit level 1, so the benefits should, at least for the most part, be a bit more boost-this-class in nature. (For instance, rogues get 4X skill points, fighters pick one combat style and get a special bonus when using it, and druids aren't stunned when in trance.)

Spellcasting:

So wizards can still cast offensive spells, its just less effective? Sounds fair, just be careful so he can still do things that arent just buffs and vice versa for sorcs.

Yes, wizards can still cast offensive spells, it's just less effective and needs to be used sparingly. They also can use combat control effects (although that'll probably be less available than in 3.5, as otherwise it's too powerful). Wizards and sorcerers will each have a number of types of options, and will be able to use each others' favorite features, they just will usually be more effective with the sort that's more designed for them.


Id also like to see your seeds

I haven't gotten as far as making them all yet; many of the details of the rework are still under construction.


On combat styles: I'd like to see what you have on these, mine feel victim to power creep :smallredface:

I'm thinking they'll mostly look like 3.5 feat chains. As for power creep, I'm more concerned with balancing them against each other than against a separate standard. I don't really consider it a problem if no non-fighter can do well against a fighter in combat in an even fight; they should be taking advantage of their noncombat abilities to find a way to win without an even fight.

Yitzi
2012-08-29, 06:56 PM
Added a piece I forgot (numbered 18a so that I don't have to number everything again), about die rolls. It's a modified 3d6 rather than d20 now.

Virdish
2012-08-29, 08:16 PM
1. I like this idea and am also interested to see how this works. Will this also be involved in class features. If so I am highly intrigued.

2. This is an interesting way to go with it. I like the idea though I would think that a lower amount of feats may be in order since combat oriented things will now be handled by styles

3. I like it.

4. I like that this will move characters into more unique feel over cookie cutters. So deffinently a plus

5. Not the way I would do it, but that is a style thing. I personally don't like the idea of having to have my character train for extended periods of time. I tend to like to rp my characters in deapth and this just seems like something that would be handled off book.

6. I like the idea of rewarding success like this.

7. Originally I would have disliked this idea however I have read your thoughts on it and like it. be wary though that this may well slow down combat if used in a more traditional manner

8. Sounds good

9. This sounds good. Saves are far too often almost impossible to make in standard and this should reduce that

10. I like it alot. Readying always seemed counter intuitive to me.

11. Interesting way to handle it. May make leveling a little more time consuming but overall interesting

12. Healing is a nice thing to buff. though I'm not sure if this will go far enough to make healing battle pertinent.

13. Seems a little over complicated to me. but I like the simplistic

14. This one honestly confuses me.

16. I like it

17. I would have to see how this plays out to really pass judgement

18. I like this for attacking but am wary about it for spellcasting.

18a. seems far to complicated but to each their own

19. Not sure about the Pally idea but other then that. thumbs up

20. sounds good

21. sounds good

22. Might want to look at sneak attack.

23. I like this. It makes the ranger feel unique instead of just an underpowered druid

24. Sounds good

25. Not one for ambiqous rp requirements. Leads to either being cheesed and ignored or making a druid no fun to play. just IMO

26. would have to see how this works to really comment

27. I personally think that limiting their versatility and adding actual class features would be better but some people want generalists.

28. Same as above

29. I am very intrigued by this and want to see more

30. I like the strategic feel to this. It adds a layer of deapth to combat

31. sounds good

32. I am on the side of further condensing but even a little is always a good
thing.

33. Not so sure about this. Though craft is usually a useless skill it is great
for roleplaying. Other question is how exactly do you make items now?

34. I like this idea. It leads to some interesting ideas.

36. I deffinently approve. I always thought the heal skill was ungodly nerfed

37. I like this as it divorcing Caster level from character level

39. Interesting. I played with this idea myself. I like seed based casting for
it's versatility so sounds good.

40. sounds good. Just a shuffling act

41. I like this. Vancian is horribly incapable of producing balance. This is a
step in the right direction for sure

42. Once again seems really complicated for my tastes but to each their own. This may lead to unneeded confusion

45. Sounds good.

46. Interesting

47. cool

48. Interesting

49. I like limiting item dependence

50. Sounds good.

Yitzi
2012-08-29, 09:18 PM
1. I like this idea and am also interested to see how this works. Will this also be involved in class features. If so I am highly intrigued.

It will not also be involved in class features (well, except that the monk's primary class class feature is a bonus to the points per level.)


2. This is an interesting way to go with it. I like the idea though I would think that a lower amount of feats may be in order since combat oriented things will now be handled by styles

The number of feats available will definitely be far less, for exactly that reason.


4. I like that this will move characters into more unique feel over cookie cutters.

It will also mean that characters will be able to be useful even outside their class's area of expertise.


5. Not the way I would do it, but that is a style thing. I personally don't like the idea of having to have my character train for extended periods of time. I tend to like to rp my characters in deapth and this just seems like something that would be handled off book.

It can be handled "onscreen" or "offscreen" as the players want. The point is that you're not going to have someone gaining 5 levels in the course of a year. Levels represent real growth, and that's something that takes time.


6. I like the idea of rewarding success like this.

It's not just to reward success, but to reward a playstyle that isn't "kill everything for XP".


7. Originally I would have disliked this idea however I have read your thoughts on it and like it. be wary though that this may well slow down combat if used in a more traditional manner

It can slow down combat if there are a lot of NPCs (whether cohorts or allies or hirelings) involved, but the DM can always just arrange for the only available cohorts and hirelings to be too low a level for combat. Followers should be a non-issue there, as followers aren't willing to go in small numbers, and adventurers usually end up going to places where large numbers are not feasible.


9. This sounds good. Saves are far too often almost impossible to make in standard and this should reduce that

Not just reduce it; it'll close to reverse it. If a caster wants to debuff or hurt someone, he will (with certain exceptions) have to choose his spells carefully.


10. I like it alot. Readying always seemed counter intuitive to me.

This will be in addition to readying, not instead of it. Readying has the advantages of always going off in time and not having to be prepared well ahead of time, but it does waste an action if the trigger doesn't occur.


11. Interesting way to handle it. May make leveling a little more time consuming but overall interesting

Rolling HD isn't the time-consuming part of levelling, so that shouldn't be an issue. The idea was that under normal rules, CON is more important for wizards than for fighters, which I figured was a bit silly. This way, it's the same proportional boost for everyone, and a higher absolute boost for more rational classes.


12. Healing is a nice thing to buff. though I'm not sure if this will go far enough to make healing battle pertinent.

I'm planning to have a few healing methods. Some are designed specifically for in or right after battle, some are meant to be over a longer period of time.

The fastest healing method is the Healing seed (available to divine casters only), healing 1 hit point per HD each round (and lasting 1 minute/caster level or until it's healed a total equal to spell powerXtarget's HD (i.e. 1 round per spell power if it's working at full force for the whole time.) It's not too poweful to overcome, but at higher levels can greatly improve survivability at a relatively small action cost.


13. Seems a little over complicated to me.

I suspect that when it's written up in context with the explanation, it'll seem simpler.


14. This one honestly confuses me.

Let's see if I can rephrase:
3.5: Melee attack roll=d20+BAB+STR plus other modifiers.
This system: Melee attack roll=d20+BAB+DEX plus other modifiers

3.5: Damage=base damage+STRXmult+other modifiers, where mult is 1.5 for 2-handed weapons, 1 for 1-handed weapons and certain ranged weapons, and .5 for off-hand weapons (and 0 for other ranged weapons.)
This system: Damage=base damage+STRX2Xmult+other modifiers.


18. I like this for attacking but am wary about it for spellcasting.

Why? I've seen it suggested that spells be made FRAs overall; this merely takes an in-between position on that matter.


18a. seems far to complicated

Yes, that is the one concern, although I suspect that like d{whatever} notation, it's something that gets easier once you get used to it. The goal, though, is to have any attack or save theoretically able to hit and theoretically able to miss, without a flat minimum such as is caused by autohits and automisses.


Not sure about the Pally idea

The idea there is that I felt that the essence of a paladin isn't really one of a particular skillset, so it should be available for all classes. That meant a template or feat, and template felt more appropriate for something based more on calling than skill.


22. Might want to look at sneak attack.

Yeah, sneak attack is being changed substantially; that's really more a fighter ability (for the right combat style) that rogues can imitate to some degree than a true rogue ability.


25. Not one for ambiqous rp requirements. Leads to either being cheesed and ignored or making a druid no fun to play. just IMO

It's not really going to be rp, more like the idea of Sanction for clerics that someone else posted a while back and also shows up for clerics here.


27. I personally think that limiting their versatility and adding actual class features would be better but some people want generalists.

In this system, casters will be more generalist; someone who wants power at the cost of specialization would usually be better off with a noncasting class.


29. I am very intrigued by this and want to see more

In good time.


33. Not so sure about this. Though craft is usually a useless skill it is great
for roleplaying.

The problem is that most items, especially adventurer-favored items like swords, aren't crafted by a single skill.


Other question is how exactly do you make items now?

If you have the appropriate Profession skill for the last step in the process of making them, you buy or commission everything up to the second-to-last step and then do that last step yourself (essentially instead of making money with it, that money goes into the item). If you have, or know someone who has, the second-to-last step as well, you can buy or commission everything before that. And so on, as far as you can go.


37. I like this as it divorcing Caster level from character level

Well, not fully. But yes, wizards will be able to have caster level higher than character level; that's part of their compensation for having to hoard their spellpoints.


42. Once again seems really complicated for my tastes but to each their own. This may lead to unneeded confusion

It really seems necessary for what I want to do with sorcerers and wizards and spell stacking, though.