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Raimun
2012-08-28, 11:15 AM
Who would win?

No, seriously, there has been a lot of "Batman vs..." threads and most seem to agree that Batman would be the winner.

I agree with that.

Who do you think could defeat Batman? State your reasons.

Water_Bear
2012-08-28, 11:33 AM
Well, internet fanboyism aside, Superman has a really good track record of beating Batman. Even in Dark Knight Returns Batman only really stalemates him, and I've never read or heard of anything where Batman actually beats him.

That's pretty much Batman's weakness; he can only win when there is a possibility of victory. Even if it's million-to-one odds Batman will come out on top, but faced with someone who is genuinely invincible he can't really do much more than lose in a really badass way.

So I would say plausible people to beat Batman;
-Hulk (when the writers get carried away like in World War Hulk)
-Superman
-Dr Manhattan

kpenguin
2012-08-28, 11:36 AM
Anyone if its a good story.

No, seriously. This is what it boils down to. If its a good story, or at least if the writer thinks it'd make for a good story, then it happens. If not, then it doesn't happen. Fictional characters exist to provide that narrative and victory in combat depends on what the writer believes would be best.

Raimun
2012-08-28, 11:42 AM
Anyone if its a good story.

No, seriously. This is what it boils down to. If its a good story, or at least if the writer thinks it'd make for a good story, then it happens. If not, then it doesn't happen. Fictional characters exist to provide that narrative and victory in combat depends on what the writer believes would be best.

Dammit, kpenguin. You reached the obvious meta-answer way too soon. :smallsmile:

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-28, 11:42 AM
- Anyone without an easily discernable weakness provided that Batman doesn't have weeks to find and engineer a specific weakness for them.

- Anyone who can reach Batman levels of planning on their own.

Dr. Doom and Dr. Who for example.

Dienekes
2012-08-28, 11:54 AM
Well, internet fanboyism aside, Superman has a really good track record of beating Batman. Even in Dark Knight Returns Batman only really stalemates him, and I've never read or heard of anything where Batman actually beats him.

Huh? TDKR has Batman really winning against Supes.
Batman is beating the crap out of Supes, and then randomly suffers a heart attack. Which was itself part of his plan so he could keep going without anyone overlooking him and shocks Superman into being good again. I really can't think of any way it wasn't a Batman win except he didn't actually kill Superman. He got everything he wanted out of the fight.

And that's not even counting the times he's taken on "possessed" superman or superman powered enemies and just whips out some kryptonite and disables him, which has happened a bit.

That said. There are a lot of people Batman would lose to in a straight up fight. However, Bats is very very good at making sure it doesn't come down to a straight up fight. Supes is one of them, Darkseid another.

Mister Mxyzptlk would win, or even worse, the Joker with Mister Mxyptlk's powers, various deities in numerous pantheons. Hell even toning down the power levels a bit, Lady Shiva, Bane on Venon, and Cassandra Cain were all considered his match in a fight. Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain was more of an informed ability but we can take it.

But Bats' ability is that if he knows he's facing Lady Shiva, Bane, or in all probability Cassandra Cain he'll cheat and come up with some information or plan or whatever that'll nullify whatever advantage they have. That's why I don't believe Lady Shiva has ever actually beaten Bats in a fight, Bane only did it once and then lost and has since floundered, and well CC (was) a good guy who's sole accomplishment is that she got Bruce a little bloodied in a training session that he didn't even notice.

Which is unfortunately what brings us to the main problem with these Batman verses random folks. Without understanding of the situation we can't really say how well Batman would do.

Kinslayer
2012-08-28, 11:58 AM
God-Emperor of Mankind (40K)
Chaos Gods (40K)
Old Ones (40K)
Gods (D&D 3.5/Mythology/etc)
Heroes With or Without CHIM (TES)
Daedric Princes (TES)
Magicka Wizard (Magicka)
Rand Al'Thor (Wheel of Time)
Most other Channelers (Wheel of Time)
Xykon and/or Redcloak (OotS)
Any variety of Level 20 spellcaster (D&D 3.5)
The main character of Advent Rising, after the endgame.
Breathe (From Dust)
Intelligent Harry Potter Wizards (No Examples Available)

That's the list of people that I'm confident could eraser Batman without a real fight. There's probably a longer list of people who would fight and win against him.

Mewtarthio
2012-08-28, 12:16 PM
I'd like to see Batman go up against Silent Hill. Not the silly cult, mind you: Just have him take a stroll through the town itself. Maybe Joker is hiding there or something. That guy's got a lot of internal angst for the town to exploit. Yeah, he'd probably get out the other side (he is the very definition of heroic willpower), but it would be really interesting to watch.

Tiki Snakes
2012-08-28, 12:25 PM
I'd like to see Batman go up against Silent Hill. Not the silly cult, mind you: Just have him take a stroll through the town itself. Maybe Joker is hiding there or something. That guy's got a lot of internal angst for the town to exploit. Yeah, he'd probably get out the other side (he is the very definition of heroic willpower), but it would be really interesting to watch.

Oh man, yes. That would definately be worth the watch. Silent Hill drawing on both the Joker's and Batmans issues? Unholy Psycho-Analysis, Batman!

Raimun
2012-08-28, 12:31 PM
I'd like to see Batman go up against Silent Hill. Not the silly cult, mind you: Just have him take a stroll through the town itself. Maybe Joker is hiding there or something. That guy's got a lot of internal angst for the town to exploit. Yeah, he'd probably get out the other side (he is the very definition of heroic willpower), but it would be really interesting to watch.

Yes, it would be. Shame that he wouldn't encounter Pyramid Head.

Tiki Snakes
2012-08-28, 12:35 PM
Yes, it would be. Shame that he wouldn't encounter Pyramid Head.

I almost get the feeling Pyramid Head has become a given, even though he was originally a very specific thing. It's like his original appearence was so iconic that he became a general part of Silent Hill.

He probably wouldn't show up, but if he did, that wouldn't be too surprising either.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-28, 12:36 PM
I'm pretty sure Batman would spend the entire time in Silent Hill wondering where Scarecrow was hiding.

Callos_DeTerran
2012-08-28, 01:31 PM
Doesn't Wonder Woman have a good track record for beating Batman, being a Flying Brick with no obvious weak-points with which to exploit? This is what TvTropes tells me anyway...

Callos_DeTerran
2012-08-28, 01:36 PM
Doesn't Wonder Woman have a good track record for beating Batman, being a Flying Brick with no obvious weak-points with which to exploit? This is what TvTropes tells me anyway...

Raimun
2012-08-28, 02:35 PM
Now that I think, Captain America might be able to beat Batman. He's Batman's equal or superior both physically and heroically and he might be able to guilt-trip him to make it a straight up boxing match... with kicks, shields and batarangs, of course. Still, tough fight.

THeBigZ
2012-08-28, 02:43 PM
Now that I think, Captain America might be able to beat Batman. He's Batman's equal or superior both physically and heroically and he might be able to guilt-trip him to make it a straight up boxing match... with kicks, shields and batarangs, of course. Still, tough fight.

There is no way at all that Captain America could beat Batman!! It would be a great fight between opposites (i.e. Marvel v. DC, Dark and gritty justice v. good straight to it justice), but still Batman always wins!

Raimun
2012-08-28, 02:46 PM
There is no way at all that Captain America could beat Batman!! It would be a great fight between opposites (i.e. Marvel v. DC, Dark and gritty justice v. good straight to it justice), but still Batman always wins!

Guilt-trip trumps prep. :smalltongue:

"Fight like a warrior, Batman."

Dienekes
2012-08-28, 02:56 PM
Cap vs Bat has happened before.

They fought for awhile, then Batman talked Cap down saying that it was possible that Cap could beat him, but it would be better if they spent their efforts elsewhere.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-28, 03:46 PM
I'd actually put my money on the Cap.

No real weaknesses to exploit, can hold his own in hand-to-hand combat, is an opponent that Batman would likely go hand-to-hand with.

In a straight-up, fair, basically no powers fight, Captain America is usually a safe bet.

Actually, I'm betting it would be a tie, and then to settle it we'd have Jason Todd fight Winter Soldier.

Traab
2012-08-28, 03:54 PM
Doesn't Wonder Woman have a good track record for beating Batman, being a Flying Brick with no obvious weak-points with which to exploit? This is what TvTropes tells me anyway...

Pfft, she is vulnerable to being tied up by men. Batman ties up people constantly. He is her kryptonite. /nod

Eldan
2012-08-28, 04:13 PM
Any number of godlike beings. The Endless. Whoever holds the Auryn.

Karoht
2012-08-28, 04:20 PM
"No real weaknesses to exploit, can hold his own in hand-to-hand combat, is an opponent that Batman would likely go hand-to-hand with."
Assuming no gizmos...

Batman opens with attacks designed to keep Cap behind the shield. Eventually Cap goes to strike from behind the shield, Batman then goes for the disarms.
Due to the fact that most grapples can not be overcome via sheer strength alone, this is Batman's next goal. And given that he's trained in Judo and other wrestling arts, where Cap has military training and experience but not much of that is grappling, my money is still on Bats getting the hold, getting the grapple to work. At which point, it becomes a question of Super Strength and Endurance VS Grappling which robs the opponent of the advantage of Strength. There is a chance that Cap might be able to hold out longer than Bats, but I doubt it.


In a straight up Boxing Match, where the proper rules of boxing apply, my money is on Cap.
Unless Batman bribes the judges and the ref.

Urpriest
2012-08-28, 04:31 PM
Rand Al'Thor (Wheel of Time)
Most other Channelers (Wheel of Time)


I'd doubt these. Rand in particular has a tendency to be very easily manipulated and make very petulant decisions, and while that tendency is receding in recent books I still think he'd be vulnerable to a typical Batman Gambit, unless he unleashed the sort of full-on Ta'veren power that he almost used on Tuon.

jseah
2012-08-28, 04:35 PM
Anyone with a time travel superpower/time machine, used intelligently. But then that guy could take on alot of stuff and win.

If Consistency Principle is applied, then the time traveller gets to be even more crazy prepared than batman... without doing a single thing. Just being able and willing to use the time machine/superpower is enough to create ontological paradoxes.


I'd doubt these. Rand in particular has a tendency to be very easily manipulated and make very petulant decisions, and while that tendency is receding in recent books I still think he'd be vulnerable to a typical Batman Gambit, unless he unleashed the sort of full-on Ta'veren power that he almost used on Tuon.
I've only read up to 10, but I haven't seen Rand and Tuon meet yet.

Are you thinking of Mat? But yes, that chance thing is pretty insane.

*coin flip, lands on edge, all: ...*

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-28, 04:55 PM
In an actual straight fight:

-Anyone who's fighting skill exceeds Bats. List starts with Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain.

-Anyone that has a convienent superpower to work against Bat's standard tricks. List starts with Spidey.

-Anyone that is just so overwhelming even with all carrying their weakness in his pocket Bats can barely manage a stalemate most days. List starts with Superman.

If giving prep time:

-Anyone who ability to plan is on par with Bats and reason to take preparation. List starts with Doctor Doom.

-Anyone that meets the fair fight criteria without a sufficiently exploitable weakpoint. List again starts with Superman (yeah Kryptonite is pretty much the only thing that gives even a loose chance and the record there is poor)

Really Bats isn't all that unbeatable, you just have to turn off the GREAT AND WORSHIPFUL BATGOD knee-jerk a lot of people have.

Karoht
2012-08-28, 05:00 PM
Really Bats isn't all that unbeatable, you just have to turn off the GREAT AND WORSHIPFUL BATGOD knee-jerk a lot of people have.
Hence why I suggested the Boxing Match. With the official rules and all that jazz.

Kitten Champion
2012-08-28, 05:39 PM
Evidence shows, that if the world was really against Batman, he'd quit. I suspect that's the case of most superheroes unless they choose to become villains. If he was re-cast as a villain, he'd lose -- the fact that heroes such as Superman know he's Bruce Wayne would mean he'd lose fairly quickly.

Omergideon
2012-08-28, 06:53 PM
Yeah. Based on actual stats, experience and power levels, bukc naked in an arena Bats is very easily beatable. Even with prep the list of guys who should destroy him by twitching their eyeballs is pretty large (I mean, Bats vs Silver Surfer.....c'mon).

It is the knee Jerk reaction that hands him a lot of his wins

Urpriest
2012-08-28, 07:03 PM
I've only read up to 10, but I haven't seen Rand and Tuon meet yet.

Are you thinking of Mat? But yes, that chance thing is pretty insane.

*coin flip, lands on edge, all: ...*

I'm thinking of Rand, but apparently we're in spoiler territory so I'll stop. But sure, Mat also provides examples of extreme Ta'verening that could probably ruin a carefully crafted Batman Gambit.

Mordar
2012-08-28, 07:41 PM
Batman opens with attacks designed to keep Cap behind the shield. Eventually Cap goes to strike from behind the shield, Batman then goes for the disarms. Due to the fact that most grapples can not be overcome via sheer strength alone, this is Batman's next goal. And given that he's trained in Judo and other wrestling arts, where Cap has military training and experience but not much of that is grappling, my money is still on Bats getting the hold, getting the grapple to work. At which point, it becomes a question of Super Strength and Endurance VS Grappling which robs the opponent of the advantage of Strength. There is a chance that Cap might be able to hold out longer than Bats, but I doubt it.
In a straight up Boxing Match, where the proper rules of boxing apply, my money is on Cap.
Unless Batman bribes the judges and the ref.

Now, I do believe Batman and CA would be a great match up with the assumption that Batman is not ambushing him with the intent to incapacitate...tranquilizers, gas attacks, tazers on an unsuspecting Steve/Cap would do the trick, and he can be ambushed. Basically, anything other than an organized contest, Batman wins by using his greater arsenal and mobility.

That being said, Cap does have extensive hand-to-hand training, both as a soldier and as a secret agent/SHIELD operative, and has frequently demonstrated his close-fighting skills. The scene in the CA movie where he tosses the HYDRA agent from the water to the top of the pier not withstanding, CA doesn't have super-strength, but human paragon strength...pretty much the same as Batman. Effectively from a physical perspective they are as close to mirrors as we're going to get, so the winner would be the one with the situational advantage.

Now, to the real question at hand, I think the qualifiers for non-World Beaters (the Alpha level, or whatever we're calling the likes of Surfer, Thor, Galactus, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc) that could beat Batman are many, and that it is again a situational issue.

Does Batman have any reason to expect the opponent is coming for them? If not, any speedster (Flash, Quicksilver - though Flash/Reverse Flash could always take Batman out, regardless), marksman (Deadpool, Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Deathstroke, etc) or incapactiator (Plastic Man, Medusa, Professor X...okay, he wins regardless, but you get the idea) can certainly get the drop on Batman and take him out. Of course, if the "match" is best 2 out of 3 falls, Batman will win Round 2 and 3.

It comes down to having a way to cancel Batman's advantage/greatest strength - preparation. Bane did it, Predator did it, I'm sure Catwoman must have done it a time or two.

The beauty of Batman is that he is a street level hero who has risen to Super Hero level...but he's always got to be on his A-game to stay there. A nearly limitless array of super-powered adversaries out to just beat Batman (not crush his spirit, not match wits with him, not tempt him into doing something naughty) can win...especially if Batman doesn't see it coming.

Devonix
2012-08-28, 08:33 PM
Batman's strength lies in being really good at a lot of things and having the intelligence to merge them all together to fit multiple circumstances.

He's not really the best at any of them however. There are people smarter, people who can fight better, people with more resources.

What the question really boils down to is not who can beat Batman, Lots of people can.
The question is. Who can beat Batman at what?

Devonix
2012-08-28, 08:36 PM
In a fight with Superman Bat's knows he's not gonna beat him not even a real chance. all of his strategies lie in figuring out how to survive long enough to get out of the situation. or to change it in such a way that Superman stops fighting him. Beating him isn't an option.

Kinslayer
2012-08-29, 12:34 AM
I'd doubt these. Rand in particular has a tendency to be very easily manipulated and make very petulant decisions, and while that tendency is receding in recent books I still think he'd be vulnerable to a typical Batman Gambit, unless he unleashed the sort of full-on Ta'veren power that he almost used on Tuon.

Rand tends to be manipulated, but in a Random Fight To The Death, he wiggles his fingers and Batman gets cut in half, exploded, half-teleported, filled with ice, crushed, and toasted in the blink of an eye. Even StealthTM isn't the most useful if Rand's thinking about it.

AtlanteanTroll
2012-08-29, 12:43 AM
How about Batman and the Batfamily VS the World?

gooddragon1
2012-08-29, 12:53 AM
Aizen... since when were you under the impression that he couldn't beat batman :D

KoboldRevenge
2012-08-29, 02:25 AM
A well prepared sniper. :D

Omergideon
2012-08-29, 03:38 AM
In a fight with Superman Bat's knows he's not gonna beat him not even a real chance. all of his strategies lie in figuring out how to survive long enough to get out of the situation. or to change it in such a way that Superman stops fighting him. Beating him isn't an option.

Unless he still has that kryptonite ring in his belt. It can take some time for Supes to notice Kryptonite is being used on him, where it may be too late. To get to this point he WILL have to play it smart and prep a lot, but it is concieveable. With the right gear.

Cos Batman usually wins against heavy hitters by having the right gear available. Remove the toys and he cannot hope to win much of the time.
That and he is only 3rd best (or something) in any one thing. But is that in some many things. Without powers Bats will be better than you in more things than you are better than him.

Still the list of guys who destroy him is huge.

molten_dragon
2012-08-29, 04:20 AM
Harry Dresden. He basically is batman, minus the money, and plus a whole lot of magical mojo.

Devonix
2012-08-29, 05:38 AM
Unless he still has that kryptonite ring in his belt. It can take some time for Supes to notice Kryptonite is being used on him, where it may be too late. To get to this point he WILL have to play it smart and prep a lot, but it is concieveable. With the right gear.

Cos Batman usually wins against heavy hitters by having the right gear available. Remove the toys and he cannot hope to win much of the time.
That and he is only 3rd best (or something) in any one thing. But is that in some many things. Without powers Bats will be better than you in more things than you are better than him.

Still the list of guys who destroy him is huge.


No he doesn't. The Kryptonite Ring that Superman gave him was destroyed in Infinite crisis and I don't know if it still exists now. And even if it did it didn't help him that time SUperman put him in the hospital last time they fought.

Aidan305
2012-08-29, 06:42 AM
I'm slightly disappointed. I came into this thread hoping to see a battle between Batman and Ramona's seven evil ex's.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-29, 08:29 AM
Rand tends to be manipulated, but in a Random Fight To The Death, he wiggles his fingers and Batman gets cut in half, exploded, half-teleported, filled with ice, crushed, and toasted in the blink of an eye. Even StealthTM isn't the most useful if Rand's thinking about it.

Yeah even giving them an arena where Bats can go and disappear Rand knowing this can: weave a few curtains of Air for total protection, level the general area until something goes squish, or layer the area with Wards set to make Bats explode when he enters their AoE. Or do all three at the same time.

You have to stack the deck completely in Bats favor by letting him make the first move with total surprise and zero corresponding prep by Rand.


Unless he still has that kryptonite ring in his belt. It can take some time for Supes to notice Kryptonite is being used on him, where it may be too late. To get to this point he WILL have to play it smart and prep a lot, but it is concieveable. With the right gear.

Kryptonite is massively overrated. You could sock Supes in the face with it and he'll fall and be hurt sure but its not an I-Win button. What killed Superman, wasn't Kryptonite that's for sure!

Still that and generally power armor let Bats have a fight against Supes sure. But every time various media has them fight AFAIK its Bats using everything he can must against Supes just casually flying around. Everything Bats does can generally stalemate Supes at best, in an unfair fight.

In an actual fight where Supes has reason to go after Batman: X-ray/Telescopic vision Bats from half a world away, come in at high speed so he's not even visible, hit Bats, win.

This even works with Bats giving himself cancer by wearing Kyrptonite continuously, Supes just has to throw a rock instead.

Fan
2012-08-29, 08:46 AM
Hahahaha...

Ah.

Ah...

Seriously, Batman's smart, but even Green Lantern could take him. He's like the Captain America of DC. He's smart, he's a great hero, he's a badass normal who knows a lot of really cool martial arts who doesn't even sweat street crime, but.. ultimately he's just human, and most of his encounters are only survived by him having a massive aura of everyone around him contracting a permanent case of the stupids.

The only time Batman wins is when he has considerable preparation, and even then Superman and Wonder Woman have both proven repeatedly to be just as resourceful, just as intelligent, and just as capable of throwing down with the bigger brains.

Superman? Heat vision lobotomy from orbit, through the bat cave walls. What can Bruce do about that? Nothing. Because his human brain doesn't fire neurons fast enough. Alternatively,

Robin: "Where did Batman go?! Where in Gotham did you take him?!"

Superman: "Into Orbit, at around Mach 7. If you had Super Hearing, right about now you'd hear the POP."

Green Lantern? Also faster than light. It's how they police their sectors. Nothing Batman can do. His nerves do not deliver signals fast enough to his body for him to react. It's just not a physical possibility.

Wonder Woman? Canonically slightly faster than Supes, and kept up with Professor Zoom who routinely out flashes the flash with her final upgrade where she blinded herself. Nothing Batman can do again.

If Batman were to seriously take on everyone while they were taking on him? He'd be dead before he could react, I love Batman, his comics are great, he presents a beautiful moral conflict. He's Batman, there's nothing not to love about how he's presented and works.

However, Superman, Wonder Woman, and dozens of others just operate on a different scale. Batman punches street thugs, Superman preforms heat vision lobotomies faster than telepaths can use their powers, and closes black holes with his bare hands repeatedly in multiple canon storylines.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-29, 08:47 AM
Usually a Batman storyline goes like this:

1. Batman meets a new challenger.
2. Batman tries his best taking them down.
3. Batman gets his ass handed to him because whoever he's fighting is bringing something new to the table.
4. Batman retreats.
5. Batman does his homework.
6. Batman comes back fully prepared and easily trounces said challenger that time and every time afterward.
BONUS: Batman is now prepared for any new challengers with similar powers. This is why Joker makes such a dangerous nemesis to Batman is of how random he is, rarely duplicating the same crime twice.


I'm slightly disappointed. I came into this thread hoping to see a battle between Batman and Ramona's seven evil ex's.

1. Matthew Pattel - Shoots fireballs, levitation, summons demon hipster chicks for support. Nothing really new, got beaten with a cymbal in the movie.
2. Lucas Lee - Action hero. Physical prowess. Has stunt double mooks and mad skateboarding skills. Even less of a challenge since he's well documented in movies and the like.
3. Todd Ingram - Now here's an actual fight. Todd has the powers to utterly destroy Batman, being a combination of Superman, Super Saiyan, and general psychic powers. We're talking about a guy who punched a hole in the moon TWICE. Todd has two major weaknesses though: any non-vegan products will summon the vegan police and strip him completely of his powers, and he's an idiot, and I mean really stupid. He's not just the sharpest knife in the drawer, he's the spoon. It might take a little bit for Batman to exploit the former, since I'm pretty sure he doesn't have Half&Half Grenades available, but I'm sure he could rig something up. The latter is what will cinch this for the bat.
4. Roxie - Ninja with self-esteem issues. Nothing really new or spectacular.
5 and 6. Kyle and Ken Katayanagi. Martial arts. Robots. Mechs. Interesting arsenal, but a few EMP grenades will make this a cakewalk.
7. Gideon - Now this could be interesting. His comic self combined with his video game self combined with his movie self could actually be quite formidable. I'm not as familiar with his exploits in the comic by comparison, but the whole Kefka-esque bit in the video games could actually pose a real threat to Batman. I'm not willing to call this one just yet.

Of course it doesn't matter in the long run because if Batman's turning down Catwoman and Talia, Ramona doesn't stand a chance.

Omergideon
2012-08-29, 09:10 AM
Snip

Like I said, even with kryptonite he would have to play it real smart and careful to stand a chance. Let alone win. But with it he has a small chance.

And if Scott Pilgrim can handle the evil exes, Batman should be capable.

Edit: Probably bats would need kryptonite, nukes, power armour from Apokalips and the like. Hard to get, but doable if he is lucky and has weeks of prep time.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-29, 09:45 AM
Like I said, even with kryptonie he would have to play it real smart and careful to stand a chance. Let alone win. But with it he has a small chance.

The problem is that people have a general tendency to give Batman all the prep work and brilliant plan he wants and assume his opponents won't do any of the same.

In a story that's alright most of the time, but from the perspective of a 'versus' you really shouldn't stack the deck like that.

And even then when you get to Justice League tier there's limits to believability. Check out what some Bat-plans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JLA:_Tower_of_Babel) actually involved. No reasonable versus thread should allow Batman to privately develop specifically tailored nanites for the occaison.

The Succubus
2012-08-29, 09:53 AM
Pfft, she is vulnerable to being tied up by men. Batman ties up people constantly. He is her kryptonite. /nod

So what you're saying is that Batman + Wonder Woman is the ultimate BDSM slash pairing then?

paddyfool
2012-08-29, 10:27 AM
Oh gods, not this again.

New question: what's your favourite match-up between Bats and Supes? Mine is the one in the Dark Knight Returns, followed closely by the one in Red Son (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2S77DPu_k8). (Said match-up is in 3/5, but I linked to 1/5 because it really should be watched from the beginning).

JDMSJR
2012-08-29, 12:02 PM
Didn't 8-bit theater have a comic where Black Mage and Red Mage got into a Batman vs. Dr. Doom argument with Doom winning? Can't find the particular comic right now...will try to post it later.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-29, 12:05 PM
Didn't 8-bit theater have a comic where Black Mage and Red Mage got into a Batman vs. Dr. Doom argument with Doom winning? Can't find the particular comic right now...will try to post it later.

Yeah, it ended with the conclusion of Dr. Doom being the victory because any outcome Batman could achieve would play right into Dr. Doom's convoluted plans.

Which I would personally counter with the end goal of all of Dr. Doom's plans, no matter the scale or complexity, being trolling Reed Richards.

Blightedmarsh
2012-08-29, 12:50 PM
Dredd...

Old "I am the law" Dredd beat 7 kinds of snot out of batman in their first meeting in "judgement on Gotham" without any idea of who he was. Proceeds to arrest and summarily sentence him to 14 years for being a vigilanty and unlawful possession of stuff.

Dredd who is by all accounts just a "normal" sixty year old (clone of a) human beats batman, summarily demasks him and it doesn't even register as significant to him.

Jeivar
2012-08-29, 12:56 PM
but still Batman always wins!

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but: I am so completely sick of these kneejerk statements appearing in anything Batman related.

Batman loses all the time. All the damn time. His enemies are just never smart enough to kill him then and there when they have the chance. He "always" wins for the same reason all other superheroes do: He's a cash cow.
My favorite version of Bats is the TAS version because ordinary thugs could land a lucky punch on him, because he doesn't literally have eyes in the back of his head and knowing martial arts doesn't actually make fighting five people at once a good idea.

Who can beat Batman? Almost anyone CAN beat Batman, even though it isn't LIKELY to happen. I have fantasized about writing a Batman story where a former special forces soldier turned mercenary is hired to kill him. Said merc would have a similar keen, strategic mind as Bats and would prepare thoroughly for the showdown with bombs and flares and escape routes and backup plans, and give Batman one hell of a challenge because modern military weapons are damn well better than shurikens and smoke bombs.

But while that might make for an interesting story it wouldn't really take all that; Just someone with the brains to arrange a crime that would draw Batman, and then wait in hiding with a sniper rifle. Or a thug with a cheap gun who gets lucky when Bats is having an off night or suffering from an injury.

As for individuals who are particularly likely or guaranteed to win:

*Any decently powerful Marvel telepath.
*Any decently powerful Jedi or Sith who isn't a moron.
*Robocop.
*Kratos of God of War.
*Any VtM vampire with some age and the right Disciplines.
*Neo, within the Matrix.
*Iron Man.
*Thor.
*The Hulk. I know there is an old crossover where Batman forced Hulk to breathe in a gas by punching him in the gut, which made him gasp, but Batman isn't nearly strong enough for that.
*The Saint of Killers. (I feel it's unfair to bring up these truly invincible types, but thought I'd include one)
*Spider Man.
*Dracula, if they met at night.
*Selene from Underworld, especially after her upgrade.
*John Constantine, if he just cast some sort of curse on Batman rather than confront him. Nothing Batman can do about that. Didn't John kill his own father that way?
*The Green Goblin (supersmart, superstrong AND gadgets).
*Basically any player character in a system that grants you access to powers that ordinary humans simply can't counter.



Pfft, she is vulnerable to being tied up by men. Batman ties up people constantly. He is her kryptonite. /nod

Didn't that get retconned away ages ago?

Tyndmyr
2012-08-29, 02:59 PM
Just for the sake of a hilariously imbalanced matchup....

Batman vs The Culture.

Raimun
2012-08-29, 03:07 PM
Check out what some Bat-plans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JLA:_Tower_of_Babel) actually involved. No reasonable versus thread should allow Batman to privately develop specifically tailored nanites for the occaison.

So, by that logic Iron Man couldn't constantly upgrade his armor, Hulk wouldn't be "that angry" and Thor would not ever possess Odinforce? Given enough time, Batman develops his capabilities. Same goes for other heroes.

Of course, that's assuming:
1) The potential enemy to Batman exists in his universe and is not magically teleported from another setting to Gotham to fight him within the same day.

2) Batman knows of this potential enemy (Edit:and knows his/her weakness(es)). I'm led to believe it's kind of his thing.

3) Batman has enough time.

If that's not the case, Batman is boned... or is he? :smalltongue:

Basically, if you're Batman's friend, it's more likely he will have a plan to kill you. That dude's even worse than The Phantom, who punches his friends with his left fist. :smalleek:

Ergo, it would have to be someone outside of DC.

WitchSlayer
2012-08-29, 03:37 PM
Just for the sake of a hilariously imbalanced matchup....

Batman vs The Culture.

Batman vs Warhammer 40k!

Batman vs Creed would be hilarious. Because Batman would go into his cave for preptime and then there's a Titan where his giant penny should be.

Or he opens up one of the pouches on his utility belt and... Welp, there's a baneblade.

Raimun
2012-08-29, 03:47 PM
Batman vs Warhammer 40k!

Batman vs Creed would be hilarious. Because Batman would go into his cave for preptime and then there's a Titan where his giant penny should be.

Or he opens up one of the pouches on his utility belt and... Welp, there's a baneblade.

Ok. There we have it. Thread's over. Nothing to see here. Back to doing something meaningful with our lives.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-29, 03:49 PM
*Any decently powerful Marvel telepath. Presuming Batman doesn't have prior experience with telepaths (none specifically come to mind) agreed. Unless it's Brave and the Bold Batman, who does bullsh*t meditation techniques to the point where he beat Joker with Bat-Mite's god powers in his own mind.
*Any decently powerful Jedi or Sith who isn't a moron. I'd argue this based on the fact that if the Force is accessible in the universe, then Batman would have the chance to learn how to use the Force beforehand.
*Robocop. I don't see how Robocop could win.
*Kratos of God of War. Granted, but I'd really be rooting for Batman.
*Any VtM vampire with some age and the right Disciplines. No comment.
*Neo, within the Matrix. If they're in the Matrix, couldn't Batman learn how to manipulate the Matrix physics too?
*Iron Man. Iron Man is hacked regularly by disgruntled employees. Not too difficult for Batman.
*Thor. Agreed.
*The Hulk. I know there is an old crossover where Batman forced Hulk to breathe in a gas by punching him in the gut, which made him gasp, but Batman isn't nearly strong enough for that. Also agreed. Batman would have to retreat and research a more efficient method of stopping him.
*The Saint of Killers. (I feel it's unfair to bring up these truly invincible types, but thought I'd include one) Don't know who that is, so no comment.
*Spider Man. Agreed. Unless Batman has enough time to prepare the chemical gas which knocks out Spider-Man and his Spider Sense, but that would take much longer than the usual amount of preparation.
*Dracula, if they met at night. Objection! Unless you're talking about a specific more powerful Dracula, Dracula has way too many weaknesses for Batman to easily exploit. If Van Helsing can do it, Batman shouldn't have any problem.
*Selene from Underworld, especially after her upgrade. Maybe it's because I haven't watched all the Underworld movies, but I don't see how she'd fare any better than any other vampire, which is to say not well.
*John Constantine, if he just cast some sort of curse on Batman rather than confront him. Nothing Batman can do about that. Didn't John kill his own father that way? Don't know the source material well enough to argue.
*The Green Goblin (supersmart, superstrong AND gadgets). This I'd actually like to see. I'd put my money on Bats disabling the glider eventually, or grappling onto it, or putting a Bat-Tracer on the glider and following it back to where Goblin's going. I'd still say Batman though.
*Basically any player character in a system that grants you access to powers that ordinary humans simply can't counter. That's a pretty broad definition, but agree with the general concept.

Bolded is mine.

Jayngfet
2012-08-29, 04:04 PM
Hahahaha...

Ah.

Ah...

Seriously, Batman's smart, but even Green Lantern could take him. He's like the Captain America of DC. He's smart, he's a great hero, he's a badass normal who knows a lot of really cool martial arts who doesn't even sweat street crime, but.. ultimately he's just human, and most of his encounters are only survived by him having a massive aura of everyone around him contracting a permanent case of the stupids.

The only time Batman wins is when he has considerable preparation, and even then Superman and Wonder Woman have both proven repeatedly to be just as resourceful, just as intelligent, and just as capable of throwing down with the bigger brains.

Superman? Heat vision lobotomy from orbit, through the bat cave walls. What can Bruce do about that? Nothing. Because his human brain doesn't fire neurons fast enough. Alternatively,

Robin: "Where did Batman go?! Where in Gotham did you take him?!"

Superman: "Into Orbit, at around Mach 7. If you had Super Hearing, right about now you'd hear the POP."

Green Lantern? Also faster than light. It's how they police their sectors. Nothing Batman can do. His nerves do not deliver signals fast enough to his body for him to react. It's just not a physical possibility.

Wonder Woman? Canonically slightly faster than Supes, and kept up with Professor Zoom who routinely out flashes the flash with her final upgrade where she blinded herself. Nothing Batman can do again.

If Batman were to seriously take on everyone while they were taking on him? He'd be dead before he could react, I love Batman, his comics are great, he presents a beautiful moral conflict. He's Batman, there's nothing not to love about how he's presented and works.

However, Superman, Wonder Woman, and dozens of others just operate on a different scale. Batman punches street thugs, Superman preforms heat vision lobotomies faster than telepaths can use their powers, and closes black holes with his bare hands repeatedly in multiple canon storylines.

This. People love to forget Superman tends to have his own facilities and Preptime, an advantage other league members may or may not enjoy depending on individual member and incarnation.

I mean that "even" Green Lantern crack might decieve some of you, but Hal Jordan even from his earliest days was meant to be on par with or roughly approaching(or even EXCEEDING, depending on who's writing) Superman in terms of raw power. Hal's only real weakness outside maybe a color depending on the era and author is that he's probably the least intelligent League member by a wide margin. Throw out smarter lanterns like Kyle or John and it's no conetst, simply because the efficient lanterns like that tend to straight up be planet crackers even BEFORE upgrades like Guardian or Ion powers.

If he's fighting Superman, Flash, or Green Lantern, keep in mind those three can time travel *At Will*. The fight was literally over before it began because they can just time travel back to before Batman even starts his prep time and just crush his brain. Or just pop out a hundred years after Batman dies and declare themselves the victor.

Raimun
2012-08-29, 04:13 PM
Or just pop out a hundred years after Batman dies and declare themselves the victor.

He'd have some Bat-Infinity Formula in his utility belt. It wouldn't be a problem.

Jeivar
2012-08-29, 04:14 PM
I'd argue this based on the fact that if the Force is accessible in the universe, then Batman would have the chance to learn how to use the Force beforehand.


Er, only if he's born Force Sensitive, and he can't Prep Time his way into that. And sorry but why in the world should Batman get extensive training in the Force specifically for this scenario, other than to tip things in his favor for the sake of Gary Stuness?



If they're in the Matrix, couldn't Batman learn how to manipulate the Matrix physics too?


Not to the same level as The One. That would just be more fanfic Gary Stuness.



Don't know who that is, so no comment.


Literally impossible to harm, his guns literally can't miss and can kill literally anyone who can be killed.



Maybe it's because I haven't watched all the Underworld movies, but I don't see how she'd fare any better than any other vampire, which is to say not well.


Super strength, super speed, super durability, super senses, jumps around like a super speed frog, uses guns, has centuries of combat experience, and has no weaknesses Batman can exploit. None, not even sunlight after Underworld 2.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-29, 04:21 PM
If he's fighting Superman, Flash, or Green Lantern, keep in mind those three can time travel *At Will*. The fight was literally over before it began because they can just time travel back to before Batman even starts his prep time and just crush his brain. Or just pop out a hundred years after Batman dies and declare themselves the victor.

Time travel is the Vs. thread equivalent of Godwin's Law, though. If you have to resort to time travel to beat your enemy, then you've basically lost the battle in spirit.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-29, 04:23 PM
Er, only if he's born Force Sensitive, and he can't Prep Time his way into that. And sorry but why in the world should Batman get extensive training in the Force specifically for this scenario, other than to tip things in his favor for the sake of Gary Stuness?

If a character's strength relies on the unique physics of their world, like the Force, then in a VS battle between that person and someone from another universe, (Batman) then either that unique aspect of physics is nullified, or the challenger gets access to the same physics.

Admittedly, I'm not as up on Star Wars mythos as most others. If manipulating the Force is something that can be learned by studying under a master, then there's no reason Batman couldn't learn it. But if using the Force is something only specific people who are born with yadda yadda can do, then okay Batman wouldn't be able to do it.

But the idea of Batman in a cross between Darth Vader's suit and his own as "the Dark Jedi Knight" does sound pretty cool.

Not arguing the others there.

Jeivar
2012-08-29, 04:32 PM
Oh, and I forgot: Fluttershy. Not even Batman can stand up to the Stare. :smalltongue:

As for my Robocop comment: He's immune to every nonlethal weapon in Batman's arsenal, and has computer assisted aiming for his supergun.

EDIT:


Admittedly, I'm not as up on Star Wars mythos as most others. If manipulating the Force is something that can be learned by studying under a master, then there's no reason Batman couldn't learn it. But if using the Force is something only specific people who are born with yadda yadda can do, then okay Batman wouldn't be able to do it.

You have to be born with a potential for it.

Raimun
2012-08-29, 04:38 PM
If a character's strength relies on the unique physics of their world, like the Force, then in a VS battle between that person and someone from another universe, (Batman) then either that unique aspect of physics is nullified, or the challenger gets access to the same physics.

Admittedly, I'm not as up on Star Wars mythos as most others. If manipulating the Force is something that can be learned by studying under a master, then there's no reason Batman couldn't learn it. But if using the Force is something only specific people who are born with yadda yadda can do, then okay Batman wouldn't be able to do it.


Right. It's kind of like being a mutant, except, not at all and it still requires training to manifest powers.



But the idea of Batman in a cross between Darth Vader's suit and his own as "the Dark Jedi Knight" does sound pretty cool.


No doubt. Criminals would fear the Galactic Wayne Empire and its Non-lethal Death Star with Emperor Wayne and Darth Batman at the helm.

Jayngfet
2012-08-29, 04:53 PM
Time travel is the Vs. thread equivalent of Godwin's Law, though. If you have to resort to time travel to beat your enemy, then you've basically lost the battle in spirit.

I dunno, that's kinda loaded. I mean it's like saying that since all those characters can move at lightspeed and Batman can't(which they can't), they lose the battle in spirit because they're using their abilities that Batman has no real way to react to.

Which is the thing. I'm sorry but there is no way that short of incredibly unique and contrived cirsumstances is he going to match any of these people, or even come close to matching them. The sheer scope of difference between even Pre-Yellow corps era sinestro or even just Lex Luthor and what they can do, vs. what any of Batman's typical rogues can do, means these characters NEED to be better as their baseline and their upper limit.

If it's Prep Time, then Superman gets his fortress Lab if Batman gets the Batcave, while any GL gets whatever facilities exist on OA or their ring can make. If it's fighting straight out Batman can't match the raw damage and can only match their experience. If Batman throws up some kind of weird technical thing that stops it from being a straight fight the other can probably match or counteract it outside of Hal or Guy or one of the dumber speedsters simply due to them not being as smart.

Batman is good. Batman is VERY good. But these are people who at baseline can mess with whole planets in one go and with upgrades can and have destroyed the entire universe even with Batman trying to stop them.

The thing is, unless these guys have a reason to hold back even more than all of them *already do all of the time*, it's not a real fight. These arguments already assume Superman isn't just smashing all of earth around Batman, or Hal isn't using his ring to make himself a near-immortal physically perfect fighting machine, or Flash isn't just using his speedforce powers to destroy the entire east coast to take Batman with it. Short of them taking it down as if they were dealing with toddlers while Batman uses every single weapon in his arsenal and goes with killing strength, this fight isn't ending in Bruce's favor.

Tiki Snakes
2012-08-29, 05:01 PM
The thing is, unless these guys have a reason to hold back even more than all of them *already do all of the time*, it's not a real fight. These arguments already assume Superman isn't just smashing all of earth around Batman, or Hal isn't using his ring to make himself a near-immortal physically perfect fighting machine, or Flash isn't just using his speedforce powers to destroy the entire east coast to take Batman with it. Short of them taking it down as if they were dealing with toddlers while Batman uses every single weapon in his arsenal and goes with killing strength, this fight isn't ending in Bruce's favor.

Two things;
Firstly, the problem with the above is that to the best of my knowledge, those characters simply do not act that way, so it's meaningless to say they should win simply because they could do that. Normal behaviour has to be taken into account on both sides.

Secondly, things like using timetravel to out-live your opponant may mean he is unable to stop your particular plan, it may mean he is unable to beat you up, but is best compared to running away and that's usually a loss by default in vs thread terminology.

Reverent-One
2012-08-29, 05:02 PM
I dunno, that's kinda loaded. I mean it's like saying that since all those characters can move at lightspeed and Batman can't(which they can't), they lose the battle in spirit because they're using their abilities that Batman has no real way to react to.

Which is the thing. I'm sorry but there is no way that short of incredibly unique and contrived cirsumstances is he going to match any of these people, or even come close to matching them. The sheer scope of difference between even Pre-Yellow corps era sinestro or even just Lex Luthor and what they can do, vs. what any of Batman's typical rogues can do, means these characters NEED to be better as their baseline and their upper limit.

If it's Prep Time, then Superman gets his fortress Lab if Batman gets the Batcave, while any GL gets whatever facilities exist on OA or their ring can make. If it's fighting straight out Batman can't match the raw damage and can only match their experience. If Batman throws up some kind of weird technical thing that stops it from being a straight fight the other can probably match or counteract it outside of Hal or Guy or one of the dumber speedsters simply due to them not being as smart.

Batman is good. Batman is VERY good. But these are people who at baseline can mess with whole planets in one go and with upgrades can and have destroyed the entire universe even with Batman trying to stop them.

The thing is, unless these guys have a reason to hold back even more than all of them *already do all of the time*, it's not a real fight. These arguments already assume Superman isn't just smashing all of earth around Batman, or Hal isn't using his ring to make himself a near-immortal physically perfect fighting machine, or Flash isn't just using his speedforce powers to destroy the entire east coast to take Batman with it. Short of them taking it down as if they were dealing with toddlers while Batman uses every single weapon in his arsenal and goes with killing strength, this fight isn't ending in Bruce's favor.

Thing is, Batman's plans have beaten those guys before. So it's obviously not impossible. That's not to say he can't lose against them, merely that it is possible for Batman to win.

Omergideon
2012-08-29, 05:18 PM
I would say that the only time Batman's plans in normal continuity have beaten GL that I know about are in the Tower of Babel arc of the JLA comics. And in that case I'm pretty sure the Kyle Raynor was not so much beaten as temporarily blinded. And he recovered within a day.

In short those victories there were short lived and incomplete. Supes was exposure to Red Kryptonite, which he recovered from naturally fairly soon.


Again with a lot of prep, a lot of luck and some single minded devotion I can see him exploiting the specific weakness of his very close friends (who he has worked with for years by now) to gain some wins. But without the phenomenal level of intel, I doubt it.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-29, 05:36 PM
So, by that logic Iron Man couldn't constantly upgrade his armor, Hulk wouldn't be "that angry" and Thor would not ever possess Odinforce? Given enough time, Batman develops his capabilities. Same goes for other heroes.


No not by my logic at all.

Hulk and Thor have nothing to do with my line of thought at all. When relevant one should specify Thor with/without Odinforce or if using say Professor Hulk, Planet Hulk Hulk, or so forth. Those make big differences but aren't particular to any exact situation.

Now Iron Man does constantly upgrade his armor but it stays pretty set in powers on the practical end. One can specify particular armors if need be, like saying a character might take the normal armor but not Hulkbuster armor.

I'm talking about things so specific they become plot devices and then letting a character pull some hyper specific solution out of nowhere for the versus thread. Batman does not normally use nanites to solve his problems, he should not be able to develop highly specific ones on demand for an entirely new opponent. Its too speculative and open ended what exactly they would do because they aren't a superpower for him, they are a plot device used once.

And take something so open ended and give it to BOTH parties in the match up and literally anything can happen. Take Peter Parker, at one point worked for Stark and so had access to Stark Tech. Does that mean he could use anything Stark Industries could conceivably develop while at the same time Bats uses anything Wayne Industries could conceivably develop. There are no conclusions there, just arbitrary declarings of victory.

Establish enough precedent and you can have a case for adaptive solutions, like the Borg from Star Trek or Darwin from X-men where super-adaptation is a discernible power available quickly. Batman isn't one of these though, he can have strategies but ones in versus matches should either use well established tools of his, or something fairly mundane. Like instead of nanites luring a character with a weakness to fire into a building stuffed with with gasoline and lighting it up.

There's a limited exception for some cases. Having Kryptonite available for example, since more then once its been established that yes he does have a supply. Him and Lex are two characters we can generally say have it. However that doesn't mean that anyone can have Kryptonite available, even if native to the DCU, because they lack proper precedent. Certainly not anyone from another setting. (At least not post-COIE...)





If he's fighting Superman, Flash, or Green Lantern, keep in mind those three can time travel *At Will*. The fight was literally over before it began because they can just time travel back to before Batman even starts his prep time and just crush his brain. Or just pop out a hundred years after Batman dies and declare themselves the victor.

I always love statements like this.

First of for two out of three of those... since when?

Supes certainly hasn't since before most of the people who frequent this site were born, it has as much bearing on the character as super-hypnosis allowing Clark Kent to be a television news anchor and Superboy causing Lex Luthor's baldness. Or Wall-of-China vision, remember that? No? Good you shouldn't.

GL its something even more obscure or very recent. Lord knows its nothing I've heard of Johns using.

Flash can still do whatever because he's secretly the most powerful of the Big 7 anyways, but doesn't because he's very sensible and knows better....

....As time travel is generally self defeating. Paradox and all that.

Mr.Silver
2012-08-29, 06:01 PM
Honestly? Quite a lot of people. The thing about the 'Batman always wins' meme is that it relies on giving Bats preparation time but never actually allows his adversary to use that time themselves, nor does it ever really grant said opponent any agency in affecting this prep time (iirc this is pretty how much how Bane beat him in the comics). It's basically just a long-running example of special pleading that most people are willing to let slide simply because they like batman as a character and enjoy the idea of someone overcoming extreme odds through cunning and wits.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-29, 07:57 PM
I dunno, that's kinda loaded. I mean it's like saying that since all those characters can move at lightspeed and Batman can't(which they can't), they lose the battle in spirit because they're using their abilities that Batman has no real way to react to.


It's not specifically vs. Batman, it's Vs. threads in general, and specifically using time travel, not 'any ability your opponent can't defend against'. As someone below said, time travel is basically running away from the fight and coming back later before = but more importantly, it's just bad taste. Daleks, superheroes, wizards...if you can't beat your opponent without restoring to erasing him from existence pre-emptively, that's saying you can't take him in a straight-up fight...and all of the above can, since if you can time travel, it usually comes as part of a package of equally badass abilities.

Mystic Muse
2012-08-29, 08:42 PM
What's that other rule I've heard about versus threads? Something like "If you have to power down either side, it means they already won"?

I'm paraphrasing, and I'm sure it's not quite that, I'm just trying to remember.

Fan
2012-08-29, 09:39 PM
Two things;
Firstly, the problem with the above is that to the best of my knowledge, those characters simply do not act that way, so it's meaningless to say they should win simply because they could do that. Normal behaviour has to be taken into account on both sides.

Secondly, things like using timetravel to out-live your opponant may mean he is unable to stop your particular plan, it may mean he is unable to beat you up, but is best compared to running away and that's usually a loss by default in vs thread terminology.

Check this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H_xBVDw7rw&feature=related), when pushed properly, Superman is no pansy who refuses to kill.

That is a animated (And pretty true to the comics too.) adaptation of a mainline canon story. It's not Nu52, but it's still canon.

Given a blood lust scenario? Superman is just too fast, too strong, has too varied a power set, and his one weakness is completely ignored by certain incarnations.

Hell, Superman has



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29279/614799-customsig_115814_fs.gif_super.jpeg



Covered an entire planet with heat vision.

I sincerely doubt there is anything a normal person (Which Batman is physically. He's pretty damn intelligent, but, ultimately a man.), can do against that, especially since he has fine enough control to avoid toasting the planet as well.

Tiki Snakes
2012-08-29, 10:10 PM
Check this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H_xBVDw7rw&feature=related), when pushed properly, Superman is no pansy who refuses to kill.

Evil Superman is no pansy who refuses to kill, sure.

Raimun
2012-08-29, 10:14 PM
Establish enough precedent and you can have a case for adaptive solutions, like the Borg from Star Trek or Darwin from X-men where super-adaptation is a discernible power available quickly. Batman isn't one of these though, he can have strategies but ones in versus matches should either use well established tools of his, or something fairly mundane. Like instead of nanites luring a character with a weakness to fire into a building stuffed with with gasoline and lighting it up.


That's what Batman does. He finds adaptive solutions to fight his enemies. I can't really remember any other superheroes who do it at the scale Batman does. That's definitely established. Other characters do make genius plans but they don't really make battle plans "in case I will fight that dude, who is my trusted ally", "or that that dude who I have never met".

Do remember, I said this requires time. For example, if Darth Vader or Thor teleported to DCU and jumped him suddenly, he wouldn't be able to make plans in time. On the other hand, the modern Batman would have plans to fight Mr.Freeze or Superman. See what I mean? It's always the new, unknown guy who catches Batman off-guard. It's fair to assume Batman would have master plans to fight anyone in DCU but the Jedi, Borg, Marvel heroes, etc. would be a different story.

Coidzor
2012-08-29, 10:21 PM
Breathe (From Dust)

The idea of Breathe vs. Batman is pretty trippy though.

Fan
2012-08-29, 10:29 PM
Evil Superman is no pansy who refuses to kill, sure.

Nope, that's from Superman V.S. The Elite, and it was after they had attempted to kill him on the moon, and reveals AFTER THAT VIDEO that he had Superbots take them into medical care and rescue every single civilian, and remove the powers of the elite as each went down.

When pushed to his limits? Superman can, has, and will kill, and even sans that he has no problem with lobotomizing his enemies as he has done repeatedly.

The man has used heat vision to scribe a perfectly legible message on a wall half way across the planet by rebounding it off a satellite in orbit, while out flying fighter jet equivalents.

There is a VERY small list of people who can successfully fight Superman, and Batman is not on that list barring Plot Induced Stupidty and his own aura of the stupids. Even with prep he loses, because then Superman can get the Cosmic Armor, and it can take everything, and anything Batman could ever put out with 10 years of prep.



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37815/849030-supes_beyond1_super.jpg


GG. Admittedly a different superman from current era, but still not a non canon supes.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-29, 10:43 PM
Are we restricitng this challenge to certain types of Media? Or can any character be put in this?

Because Mister Rogers can beat Batman. :smallwink:

Mystic Muse
2012-08-29, 11:02 PM
Are we restricitng this challenge to certain types of Media? Or can any character be put in this?

Because Mister Rogers can beat Batman. :smallwink:

~This is the ultimate showdown, of ultimate destiny. Good guys, bad guys and explosions, as far as the eye can see. And only one will survive, I wonder who it will be. This is the ultimate showdown, of ultimate destiny.~

Yeah, a lot of people can beat batman.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-08-29, 11:06 PM
That's what Batman does. He finds adaptive solutions to fight his enemies. I can't really remember any other superheroes who do it at the scale Batman does.

I'm going to presume you only read the first sentence in that paragraph by your response as I dealt with that directly. Allow me:

Establish enough precedent and you can have a case for adaptive solutions, like the Borg from Star Trek or Darwin from X-men where super-adaptation is a discernible power available quickly. Batman isn't one of these though, he can have strategies but ones in versus matches should either use well established tools of his, or something fairly mundane. Like instead of nanites luring a character with a weakness to fire into a building stuffed with with gasoline and lighting it up.

Batman is not a super-scientist so while he might conceive of a fantastic solution (nanites, magic, etc) but his ability to implement that is quite limited. Even the super-scientists don't get to ass-pull without restriction.

Yes "with time" he might, but that's a standard so arbtrary its meaningless. Is this time six days, months, or years? There's no hard rules to R&D, it could be just plain impossible for some reason that wasn't apparent until Wayne Industries pour a billion dollars over it. Or it could be ready next Tuesday after a sudden breakthrough.

This is common but HUGE mistake people make with versus threads. They don't answer the question "Who would win?" but write the imaginary story "[X] wins by doing [Y]" and making up Y to suit the needs of the victory. Congrats, but wrong. You have to go by what the character has displayed, and with someone with enough publishing history, continuity reboots, soft retcons, hard retcons, and creators with a finger in the pie not that is nessecarily enough.

For Batman that means who does he actually have a special method worked out and ready to go for? Superman. Otherwise he only has his common tools and things that could be done fairly mundanely.

Thi

Knaight
2012-08-29, 11:26 PM
Batman's strength lies in being really good at a lot of things and having the intelligence to merge them all together to fit multiple circumstances.

He's not really the best at any of them however. There are people smarter, people who can fight better, people with more resources.

What the question really boils down to is not who can beat Batman, Lots of people can.
The question is. Who can beat Batman at what?

We could restrict the list to people who can beat him at all of them. People smarter, cleverer, more capable in a fight, with better resources. We could even limit it to people far smarter, far cleverer, far more capable, and with far better resources.

I submit Sun Wukong. He's a smart monkey, and through cleverness has weaseled his way out of any number of traps and pulled off any number of schemes. He's a capable fighter who has taken on a whole bunch of nasty supernatural creatures, and he carts around a cudgel that is more than capable of destroying the bat mobile on a near miss. As for resources, he has numerous transportation, and he has access to various supernatural friends, people he's bullied into submission, so on and so forth, and their whole host of treasures. Given his capacity to trick people out of their treasures, one can also add stuff belonging to his enemies.

Added to that are their reasons for conflict. Sun Wukong is a troublemaker with a habit of smashing up cities, monasteries, statues, nearly irreplaceable magic trees, and other such stuff. In Gotham, he would be viewed as a criminal, which puts Batman on the offensive. The probable result here is that Batman fails to protect Gotham from a monkey, and is subsequently run circles around in cleverness until Wukong eventually gets bored and ends it. All the while, he neatly avoids problems due to scruples that superheroes always have to contend with, and problems due to having to avoid violence that came out of the comic code, as Sun Wukong predates it as a character by several centuries.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-29, 11:36 PM
I submit Sun Wukong. He's a smart monkey, and through cleverness has weaseled his way out of any number of traps and pulled off any number of schemes. He's a capable fighter who has taken on a whole bunch of nasty supernatural creatures, and he carts around a cudgel that is more than capable of destroying the bat mobile on a near miss. As for resources, he has numerous transportation, and he has access to various supernatural friends, people he's bullied into submission, so on and so forth, and their whole host of treasures. Given his capacity to trick people out of their treasures, one can also add stuff belonging to his enemies.

Added to that are their reasons for conflict. Sun Wukong is a troublemaker with a habit of smashing up cities, monasteries, statues, nearly irreplaceable magic trees, and other such stuff. In Gotham, he would be viewed as a criminal, which puts Batman on the offensive. The probable result here is that Batman fails to protect Gotham from a monkey, and is subsequently run circles around in cleverness until Wukong eventually gets bored and ends it. All the while, he neatly avoids problems due to scruples that superheroes always have to contend with, and problems due to having to avoid violence that came out of the comic code, as Sun Wukong predates it as a character by several centuries.

Well clearly the end result of such a confrontation is Batman calling in Detective Chimp and then the whole thing goes bananas.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-29, 11:41 PM
~This is the ultimate showdown, of ultimate destiny. Good guys, bad guys and explosions, as far as the eye can see. And only one will survive, I wonder who it will be. This is the ultimate showdown, of ultimate destiny.~

Yeah, a lot of people can beat batman.

God job immediately getting the reference! :smallsmile:

Hm... going on the song alone, Abraham Lincoln would make a pretty good counter to Batman. And Chuck Norris. And Jackie Chan could probably deflect a Batarang if he can deflect a bullet.

About Sun Wukong, forget that noise, just send in Goku. :smallbiggrin:

Jayngfet
2012-08-30, 02:32 AM
I always love statements like this.

First of for two out of three of those... since when?

Supes certainly hasn't since before most of the people who frequent this site were born, it has as much bearing on the character as super-hypnosis allowing Clark Kent to be a television news anchor and Superboy causing Lex Luthor's baldness. Or Wall-of-China vision, remember that? No? Good you shouldn't.

GL its something even more obscure or very recent. Lord knows its nothing I've heard of Johns using.

Flash can still do whatever because he's secretly the most powerful of the Big 7 anyways, but doesn't because he's very sensible and knows better....

....As time travel is generally self defeating. Paradox and all that.


Green Lantern's ability to Time Travel has pretty much been a thing from the Silver all the way to the Iron age. I'm not about to go hunting down scans because it's past midnight and I've got a gigantic Green Lantern archive but early in the Silver Age, Hal had a mystery to solve regarding the origin of a couple of objects. He immediatly set his ring to scan them found out they were from several thousand years in the future, and after he got over mild surprise decided to go to the future himself under his own power to find out what was going on. A quick wiki check reveals that the time I'm talking about was the fifty eighth century. Apparently if that isn't enough, Jordan can go even farther into the future.


Even Post Crisis during Green Lantern Corps Quarterly in the mid 90's we see another unrelated Green Lantern rookie in space. He's trying to stop a space-tractor-thing from destroying land under his protection, even though his ring has like, five minutes of power left and it's yellow, so he can't just smash it. Even as a rookie with barely any power left one of his first instincts is to go back in time to when his ring had more power. It doesn't work, not because he can't go back in time, but because the power battery doesn't work that way. He can still go back in time, it just wouldn't solve the problem present at that specific second.

This is an ability that's basically been consistent right up until Johns's run. It's just a thing Green Lanterns could do.

Also, as a Green Lantern fan who's read about like, at least 75% of the Green Lantern comics from Hal's original pre-crisis appearance right up until the annual that came out this morning, I'm not going to mince words: Geoff John's run and everything influenced by it is terrible in every single concievable way. I mean in literally every concievable way. Panels are copy-pasted with minor edits as lazy art, the plot-lines and established events even before formal retcons are ignored and toyed with to the point of being incomprehensible, character's individual traits are downplayed to the point of blandness, hundreds of new characters are introduced en masse and then due to this remain flat up until this day due to having no development and incredibly simplistic backstories, even among these hundreds non-powered characters that kept the series as grounded in modern reality are nonexistant and most outside the Iconic ones like Tom Klamaku are retconned out of existence. Concepts that have been considered major through the comic's entire history have been thoughtlessly dropped and replaced with things that have no substance.

From a technical standpoint, an artistic standpoint, a narrative standpoint, and a continuity standpoint this particular run is, hands down, and from easily pointed out facts, the single worst run of Green Lantern. It's bad fanfiction that happens to have DC's stamp over it.

Lord Raziere
2012-08-30, 02:39 AM
Anyone too fast for batman to react to.

Thats all you need.

Trust me. all really need to do, is beat him to the draw. he can't pull out any of his super-prepping skills if your too fast to prepare against.

you can't prepare against anything if your already dead.

Omergideon
2012-08-30, 04:16 AM
Batman only has his super prepared stuff for use against the JLA and other expected threats because he knows them. He has put together, planned and desgined for these encounters for some years. He works closely with most of the DC universe heavy hitters and knows about their weaknesses intimately. As such he can pan for them. Remove this and Batman's prep power becomes whatever small tools he can pull out of his utility belt, and whatever experience he can have to deal with them.

For example, the anti-aquaman nanites. A useful thing and if he has them it may let him beat Aquaman in a fight. But could they affect Namor? Doubtful as Namor and Aquaman are not even necessarily the same species, with different weaknesses and strengths. And these are 2 people power set wise who are about as similar as they come.

It is reasonable to assume Bruce has a goodly amount of gear and experience. But also remember his standard in the DCU is based on well over a decade of working with the heaviest hitters around and planning for just as long.

Devonix
2012-08-30, 06:00 AM
Green Lantern's ability to Time Travel has pretty much been a thing from the Silver all the way to the Iron age. I'm not about to go hunting down scans because it's past midnight and I've got a gigantic Green Lantern archive but early in the Silver Age, Hal had a mystery to solve regarding the origin of a couple of objects. He immediatly set his ring to scan them found out they were from several thousand years in the future, and after he got over mild surprise decided to go to the future himself under his own power to find out what was going on. A quick wiki check reveals that the time I'm talking about was the fifty eighth century. Apparently if that isn't enough, Jordan can go even farther into the future.


Even Post Crisis during Green Lantern Corps Quarterly in the mid 90's we see another unrelated Green Lantern rookie in space. He's trying to stop a space-tractor-thing from destroying land under his protection, even though his ring has like, five minutes of power left and it's yellow, so he can't just smash it. Even as a rookie with barely any power left one of his first instincts is to go back in time to when his ring had more power. It doesn't work, not because he can't go back in time, but because the power battery doesn't work that way. He can still go back in time, it just wouldn't solve the problem present at that specific second.

This is an ability that's basically been consistent right up until Johns's run. It's just a thing Green Lanterns could do.

Also, as a Green Lantern fan who's read about like, at least 75% of the Green Lantern comics from Hal's original pre-crisis appearance right up until the annual that came out this morning, I'm not going to mince words: Geoff John's run and everything influenced by it is terrible in every single concievable way. I mean in literally every concievable way. Panels are copy-pasted with minor edits as lazy art, the plot-lines and established events even before formal retcons are ignored and toyed with to the point of being incomprehensible, character's individual traits are downplayed to the point of blandness, hundreds of new characters are introduced en masse and then due to this remain flat up until this day due to having no development and incredibly simplistic backstories, even among these hundreds non-powered characters that kept the series as grounded in modern reality are nonexistant and most outside the Iconic ones like Tom Klamaku are retconned out of existence. Concepts that have been considered major through the comic's entire history have been thoughtlessly dropped and replaced with things that have no substance.

From a technical standpoint, an artistic standpoint, a narrative standpoint, and a continuity standpoint this particular run is, hands down, and from easily pointed out facts, the single worst run of Green Lantern. It's bad fanfiction that happens to have DC's stamp over it.

Superman also has very commonly known use of Timetravel through the modern age and even into the current New 52 continuity. It is mainly used to travel to the 30th centure where he works with the Legion of Superheroes and vice versa for them to come to this time period and assist him. It does however function like it does in Bill and Ted where the clock in San Dimas is always running there. though not in present time.


and Flash has his cosmic Tredmill. which we all should know about.


And then there are other superheroes that they can call on with time travel tech or magic. So yeah they can timetravel. But no it does not affect versus matches that would be silly. You removing yourself from the timestream does not mean you beat your opponent.

Xondoure
2012-08-30, 06:15 AM
Time travel not counting in vs. threads is fair assuming we're working with say Superman.

But to quote any good villainous mastermind "Fight a man in a straight fight and have a chance at victory, or rig the game to win? Your choice. No wait, it's mine."

Devonix
2012-08-30, 06:18 AM
Also can we stop using Tower of Babel as evidence that Batman can beat every superhero ever.

Tower of Babel was just a set of contingency plans he thought up on how to beat certain super heroes. Something that Comic fans have been doince since comics first started. And we've come up with even better plans. That does not mean that we could beat those heroes just that we have lots of ideas on how it could be done.

Remember Batman didn't implement those plans didn't even make the devices that were used Ra's Al Ghul did and he needed the league of Assasin's working in secret to get the plans set into motion.

Batman as one guy could not have acted on the Tower of Babel story the way Ra's did. or even the way it was done in Justice league Doom with Vandal Savage needing to organize his Legion of Doom to get the plan to work.

Reverent-One
2012-08-30, 07:16 AM
Tower of Babel was just a set of contingency plans he thought up on how to beat certain super heroes. Something that Comic fans have been doince since comics first started. And we've come up with even better plans. That does not mean that we could beat those heroes just that we have lots of ideas on how it could be done.

We're also not costumed superheroes who are at the peak of human conditioning, as well as geniuses with a massive amount of resources to carry out those plans. Batman is. Which means they should be considered depending on the circumstances of the vs thread.

Devonix
2012-08-30, 07:32 AM
We're also not costumed superheroes who are at the peak of human conditioning, as well as geniuses with a massive amount of resources to carry out those plans. Batman is. Which means they should be considered depending on the circumstances of the vs thread.

Batman's also just one guy not the leader of an organization of assasins. Batman using an organization or using other superpowered beings to implement those plans would not be the equivalent of Batman beating them.

Ravens_cry
2012-08-30, 07:44 AM
Batman only exists because Gotham let's him. If the cops wanted him dead, well, a guy who prowls alleys in a very distinctive costume and vehicle isn't hard to track. Bring on the heavy hitters of DC, and well, I don't see how he has a chance.

Reverent-One
2012-08-30, 08:11 AM
Batman's also just one guy not the leader of an organization of assasins. Batman using an organization or using other superpowered beings to implement those plans would not be the equivalent of Batman beating them.

Which matters specifically in the case of Batman going up against the entire Justice league at once (and arguably he could do something different but similar himself, especially if he has Boom Tube technology as is often claimed), and less so in regards to whether or not we should consider such plans in general in vs threads.


Batman only exists because Gotham let's him. If the cops wanted him dead, well, a guy who prowls alleys in a very distinctive costume and vehicle isn't hard to track.

On the other hand, would he act exactly the same if the entire police force wanted him dead?

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-30, 08:24 AM
Batman only exists because Gotham let's him. If the cops wanted him dead, well, a guy who prowls alleys in a very distinctive costume and vehicle isn't hard to track. Bring on the heavy hitters of DC, and well, I don't see how he has a chance.

Except that the cops have tried to take down Batman in multiple versions of the franchise, including the movies, the animated series, etc. and they never even come close.

Raimun
2012-08-30, 10:15 AM
How about Catwoman? Batman trusts him to a degree and usually sees she has potential to do more than be a mere burglar and thief. She might be able to end Batman finally. Spoilers:

Comic:
I remember reading, long time ago, Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader, which presented a scenario where Batman was weakened (after a battle?) and came to Catwoman for shelter. She was really frustrated that Batman couldn't retire or have any time for her, so she snapped and killed her. Still, I guess this is like a What If? -story.

Film:
Dark Knight Rises ended with Bruce quitting being Batman and retiring, so he could spend his life with Selina. Also, because of chronic injuries but still.

Mewtarthio
2012-08-30, 12:00 PM
Comic:
I remember reading, long time ago, Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader, which presented a scenario where Batman was weakened (after a battle?) and came to Catwoman for shelter. She was really frustrated that Batman couldn't retire or have any time for her, so she snapped and killed her. Still, I guess this is like a What If? -story.

You're setting up a scenario that heavily favors Catwoman. Like, to an unfair degree. A basic rule of vs threads is that the two sides get equal information on each other. You've just managed to prove that Catwoman could beat Batman if he was injured and not expecting an attack. That would be like resolving a Batman vs Superman argument by saying "Well, Superman could just spontaneously put his fist through Batman's chest over their morning coffee" (or, conversely, "Batman could just put some kryptonite in a lead-lined Christmas present"). That's not "Can X beat Y?", it's "Can X murder Y?" You could still get some interesting debates out of that, but if Y implicitly trusts X and is not totally immune to X's attacks, it's a bit of a no-brainer.


Film:
Dark Knight Rises ended with Bruce quitting being Batman and retiring, so he could spend his life with Selina. Also, because of chronic injuries but still.[/quote]

TDKR:
Bruce didn't retire for Selina's sake. He retired because his Batman obsession had become unhealthy. If anyone "defeated" Batman, it was Alfred. He just took Selina with him because he kind of liked her and had promised her a blank slate.

Karoht
2012-08-30, 05:17 PM
Except that the cops have tried to take down Batman in multiple versions of the franchise, including the movies, the animated series, etc. and they never even come close.
How certain are we that it was a serious attempt to stop him?
If I were a Gotham cop, I would have a really hard time shooting at Batman.
Also, it's Batman. If he's gone off the deep end, and I shoot at him, and he singles me out, I'm probably not making it home to my wife and kids that night.
So yeah, my gun might jam or misfire, or my hand might be a bit shakey from drinking too much coffee that day.
Heck, did I even remember to load the thing? Is the safety off? Oh darn, now where are my pants? What a bad day this is.

Water_Bear
2012-08-30, 05:27 PM
Batman only exists because Gotham let's him. If the cops wanted him dead, well, a guy who prowls alleys in a very distinctive costume and vehicle isn't hard to track. Bring on the heavy hitters of DC, and well, I don't see how he has a chance.

Batman has fought A-list guys like Luthor and Darksied multiple times, is one of the few people to regularly stalemate Superman, and is a core member of the Justice League. He has, on multiple occasions, fought dozens of elite gun-wielding Assassins from the League of Assassins, and defeated them all without a scratch on him and without having to take any of their lives.

Gotham Cops can't take down the Riddler or Calendar Man without Batman's help. Heck, they can't even hold them for more than a few weeks before their next escape from Arkham.

Batman allows the GCPD to exist, not the other way around.

Karoht
2012-08-30, 05:33 PM
Gotham Cops can't take down the Riddler or Calendar Man without Batman's help. Heck, they can't even hold them for more than a few weeks before their next escape from Arkham.

Batman allows the GCPD to exist, not the other way around.
Batman could probably hold a 3 day seminar entitled "How to be a better detective" and show up as Bruce Wayne, and most of GCPD probably wouldn't get it. Assuming they even bothered to show up.

And who the heck runs Arkham Asylym? I'm surprised Bats hasn't just installed his own secret security measures in that place without their knowledge.

Water_Bear
2012-08-30, 05:58 PM
And who the heck runs Arkham Asylym? I'm surprised Bats hasn't just installed his own secret security measures in that place without their knowledge.

I've never heard a good in-universe explanation for Arkham Asylum. Plenty of explanations, they're just all incredibly stupid. Seriously, after the Joker's 20th massacre, someone would have put a fence around that place.

The problem is that the DCU needs these guys running around, and needs the heroes to semi-regularly catch and imprison them. So whether it's Arkham or the Phantom Zone or a small transparent orb floating in between universes they're going to escape eventually. DC just embraced the stupidity of Arkham as part of their "Gotham = Corruption, Metropolis = Progress" metaphor.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-30, 06:11 PM
Sometimes I wonder which is more prevalent and potent, the kneejerk 'Batman wins with prep time' meme or the equally obnoxious kneejerk backlash (or should I say Batlash?) against him.

Zen Monkey
2012-08-30, 06:11 PM
Any of Magneto's family is probably a threat. Old man M controls one of the fundamental forces of the universe, has a daughter that rewrites reality and a son with lighting speed in both action and thought.

Some serious power in that family tree.

Jayngfet
2012-08-30, 06:52 PM
I've never heard a good in-universe explanation for Arkham Asylum. Plenty of explanations, they're just all incredibly stupid. Seriously, after the Joker's 20th massacre, someone would have put a fence around that place.

The problem is that the DCU needs these guys running around, and needs the heroes to semi-regularly catch and imprison them. So whether it's Arkham or the Phantom Zone or a small transparent orb floating in between universes they're going to escape eventually. DC just embraced the stupidity of Arkham as part of their "Gotham = Corruption, Metropolis = Progress" metaphor.

While I haven't read much Batman, from what I've seen it's not so much a problem with Arkham itself recently, so much as it is that every single time any given prisoner needs to be moved someone always smashes the vehicle and gets them out.

You'd think they'd just guard the moving vans with tanks, but I digress.

Karoht
2012-08-30, 07:55 PM
While I haven't read much Batman, from what I've seen it's not so much a problem with Arkham itself recently, so much as it is that every single time any given prisoner needs to be moved someone always smashes the vehicle and gets them out.

You'd think they'd just guard the moving vans with tanks, but I digress.Or, you know, death penalty by now. How many counts of first degree and second degree murder do they have on the Joker by now?

The best I can come up with now is 4 parts to Joker's Legal Defence:
1-Due to some of Joker's methods and influence, it might be difficult finding any credible witnesses to testify.
2-By now everyone in Gotham has heard of the Joker. Finding a Jury in that town for the Joker? Between fear of reprisal along with his attention in the media, I doubt you could find a single Juror who fit all the fancy criteria of not being biased about the guy.
3-Assuming that a trial can even actually proceede, Joker isn't going to make it easy on them. Jokes, gags, lethal weapons somehow concealed. He's a security risk just entering the courtroom, no matter what precautions they take. Between the annoyance caused by the antics, and intimidation towards witnesses, prosecutor, judge, and jury, it's likely to be in the judges best interest to get the case over with as fast and smoothly as possible.
4-His Lawyer immediately goes for the insanity defense, and the Joker probably manages to demonstrate this for the court. Due to the difficulties presented by the first three points, the prosecutors and judge are all for it.

I've got no reason for the rest of the villains, but Joker fits the bill here.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-30, 08:08 PM
The game Arkham Asylum points out the problem quite nicely. It's not that Arkham Asylum is easy to break out of. It's not. It has multiple layers of state-of-the-art security. The problem is that it contains a very large concentration of supervillains, and not every guard is above intimidation and bribery.

There are a few reasons Joker keeps not getting the death penalty.
1. He doesn't stick around long enough and is unpredictable enough to keep even Batman on his toes regularly. Even highly trained guards are going to have a lot of trouble with him.
2. He definitely qualifies for an insanity defense. I don't think a jury in the world would believe otherwise.
3. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get some details wrong, but I believe that all investigations involving a suspect have to be closed before they can be executed, and Joker is nothing but an endless stream of "surprises." Please note I could be very wrong there.

Devonix
2012-08-30, 09:38 PM
How about Catwoman? Batman trusts him to a degree and usually sees she has potential to do more than be a mere burglar and thief. She might be able to end Batman finally. Spoilers:

Comic:
I remember reading, long time ago, Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader, which presented a scenario where Batman was weakened (after a battle?) and came to Catwoman for shelter. She was really frustrated that Batman couldn't retire or have any time for her, so she snapped and killed her. Still, I guess this is like a What If? -story.

Film:
Dark Knight Rises ended with Bruce quitting being Batman and retiring, so he could spend his life with Selina. Also, because of chronic injuries but still.

you're misremembering the comic. she didn't kill him in it, didn't even injure him. All she did was not get him the assistance he needed. He was dieing and came to her for help.

Mikeavelli
2012-08-30, 10:29 PM
Batman traditionally wins against foes like Darkseid by doing stuff like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE5RXhPwlKc) He legitimately loses in a conventional straight up vs competition.

Traab
2012-08-30, 11:05 PM
I dont think the insanity plea actually works for the joker. He is fully aware of what he is doing, the effect his killings have, and the harm he is causing to the world in general. He just finds it funny as hell. I admit that I am not a lawyer, but I think insanity pleas only cover a person so deeply disturbed that they are incapable of comprehending their actions and what they mean.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-30, 11:17 PM
I dont think the insanity plea actually works for the joker. He is fully aware of what he is doing, the effect his killings have, and the harm he is causing to the world in general. He just finds it funny as hell. I admit that I am not a lawyer, but I think insanity pleas only cover a person so deeply disturbed that they are incapable of comprehending their actions and what they mean.

Point 6 of this article is relevant. (http://www.cracked.com/article_18385_7-bull****-police-myths-everyone-believes-thanks-to-movies.html)

Callos_DeTerran
2012-08-30, 11:30 PM
I've never heard a good in-universe explanation for Arkham Asylum. Plenty of explanations, they're just all incredibly stupid. Seriously, after the Joker's 20th massacre, someone would have put a fence around that place.

The problem is that the DCU needs these guys running around, and needs the heroes to semi-regularly catch and imprison them. So whether it's Arkham or the Phantom Zone or a small transparent orb floating in between universes they're going to escape eventually. DC just embraced the stupidity of Arkham as part of their "Gotham = Corruption, Metropolis = Progress" metaphor.

The best explanation I've heard for Arkham Asylum is that the Asylum (or the land itself) is tainted in some fashion and wants it's deranged inhabitants to escape and thus criminals find themselves 'lucky' on top of their skills and plans in their escape attempts. Like...strategically placed camera will mysteriously go on the fritz just as a guard is passing, or another inmate will cause a ruckus that draws the guards and not remember why.

I mean, there's not an awful lot the guards can do if the prison itself is malevolent and conspires to free the inmates.

@Mikeavelli: You know, despite overall liking that movie, I really disliked that scene just for Batman having somehow mysteriously figured out Apolyptian encryption when there was far more plausible routes they could have gone like 'I attached explosives to your hellspores' which is just as bad for Darkseid I'd imagine.

Jayngfet
2012-08-31, 12:23 AM
I've got no reason for the rest of the villains, but Joker fits the bill here.

Depends on who's writing is the thing. I mean what people usually don't seem to understand is that even guys like Two Face and the Joker who kill freely don't kill every time and the body count they personally have probably isn't that high. I mean a joke that gets repeated TOO often stops being funny.

In any case, you need to remember that The Joker is like, one guy among dozens who are still nowhere near the top tier. I mean every other year some homicidal alien warlord invades earth or somebody MORE insane than the Joker comes along with actual superpowers and causes a whole lot more damage.

The Joker is "only" a serial killer and occasional leader of a very small number of people. When you routinely have to deal with gods and martians and angry world breaking cyborgs a single serial killer, even a high profile one like this, can get lost easily.

Kinslayer
2012-08-31, 12:24 AM
2. He definitely qualifies for an insanity defense. I don't think a jury in the world would believe otherwise.

We find the defendant Innocent by means of insanity. We're going to send you to the Electric Chair Rehabilitation Center. You'll be there a total of thirteen minutes before being relocated to the Graveyard Retirement Home For The Criminally Insane. It's in a basement. Six feet down.

AtlanteanTroll
2012-08-31, 01:25 AM
Joker's the poster-child of the insanity defense. Imposing the death penalty on him makes ... Ethical issues. :smalltongue:

Xondoure
2012-08-31, 01:32 AM
Joker's the poster-child of the insanity defense. Imposing the death penalty on him makes ... Ethical issues. :smalltongue:

If you can't make a prison secure enough to hold a mass murderer what are your alternatives? Is his life worth more than that of his victims? *flees and grabs popcorn.*

Jayngfet
2012-08-31, 04:07 AM
If you can't make a prison secure enough to hold a mass murderer what are your alternatives? Is his life worth more than that of his victims? *flees and grabs popcorn.*

Eh, it's more that Joker's at that weird inbetween than anything else. If you have full on powered criminals then you can just chuck them in specific facilities with equipment to suppress them and that'll work consistently in most cases. If an earthly prison is too much, then just get a Green Lantern to haul them off to a sciencell or something.

If they're just a regular old crime boss or serial killer, then suppressing them in a normal prison or asylum isn't too hard.

But the Joker is at that weird inbetween, he has no real powers to take away, he isn't enough of a cosmic nusance or super threat to need a sciencell, he's too much of a threat to the people around him for normal prison facilities, and he's dangerous enough that people often try to break him out. Just killing him has been tried repeatedly and never works, and straight up lobotomizing him tends to not be favorable due to real world reasons.

There's really nothing that can be done unless you try to say, kill him, incinerate the body and scatter the ashes across the world, then bind his spirit to something to stop him from getting back. Anything less extreme will not and has not worked.

Jeivar
2012-08-31, 09:56 AM
There's really nothing that can be done unless you try to say, kill him, incinerate the body and scatter the ashes across the world, then bind his spirit to something to stop him from getting back. Anything less extreme will not and has not worked.

Because he's a popular character and the fans wouldn't have it.
"Realistically", with all his gleeful cop killing I can't believe a twitchy cop wouldn't have blown his brains out already.
"I thought he had a gun." :smallwink:

Water_Bear
2012-08-31, 10:17 AM
Because he's a popular character and the fans wouldn't have it.
"Realistically", with all his gleeful cop killing I can't believe a twitchy cop wouldn't have blown his brains out already.
"I thought he had a gun." :smallwink:

The problem is that whenever someone ties to off the Joker, Batman and company swoop in to save him. :smallsigh:

But even if he died, the afterlife isn't that effective as a prison either. Seeing as he would almost certainly go to one of the DCU's many versions of Hell, there are any number of Demons who would love to see the Joker back in action on earth. Not much point in killing him unless they can pull a South Park and trap him in heaven...

Aotrs Commander
2012-08-31, 11:56 AM
The problem is that whenever someone ties to off the Joker, Batman and company swoop in to save him. :smallsigh:

But even if he died, the afterlife isn't that effective as a prison either. Seeing as he would almost certainly go to one of the DCU's many versions of Hell, there are any number of Demons who would love to see the Joker back in action on earth. Not much point in killing him unless they can pull a South Park and trap him in heaven...

On the other hand, death is arguably still a harder prison to escape from the Arkham, even in the DCU. Would it stick? Probably not, but it ought to slow the bugger down a bit more, surely...

Tyndmyr
2012-08-31, 11:56 AM
So long as the Joker sells comic books, he'll be back out.

kpenguin
2012-08-31, 02:01 PM
If you can't make a prison secure enough to hold a mass murderer what are your alternatives? Is his life worth more than that of his victims? *flees and grabs popcorn.*

Yes. He's far more entertaining than them.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-31, 02:30 PM
Yes. He's far more entertaining than them.

That was terrible and you should be ashamed of yourself for it.

I'm going to hell because that made me laugh my ass off.

Geostationary
2012-08-31, 02:33 PM
Relevant to the Joker and legal defenses: Law and the Multiverse (http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/01/26/supervillains-and-competency/)

Starbuck_II
2012-08-31, 03:38 PM
Devilman from Dragon Ball cartoon (not Z, think earlier).
If you have any dark side, even a tiny one, you are disintegrated when he hits you with his beam.

Only one who was unaffected by Goku as a kid.
Batman doesn't stand a chance.

INoKnowNames
2012-08-31, 03:39 PM
Devilman from Dragon Ball cartoon (not Z, think earlier).
If you have any dark side, even a tiny one, you are disintegrated when he hits you with his beam.

Only one who was unaffected by Goku as a kid.
Batman doesn't stand a chance.

Screw that noise, just send Goku in.

Besides, given the Super Saiyan forms, and Goku pimping out Bulma to Elder Supreme Kai, he's got a darkside now.

VestigeArcanist
2012-08-31, 05:37 PM
I think Batman would lose to Ender Wiggin. Also, to rational!Harry Potter, though Harry wouldn't kill him. Rational!Quirrel and Dumbledore is a plain curbstomp.

Urpriest
2012-08-31, 07:03 PM
I think Batman would lose to Ender Wiggin. Also, to rational!Harry Potter, though Harry wouldn't kill him. Rational!Quirrel and Dumbledore is a plain curbstomp.

They're different people? :smalltongue:

But on that note, I think it would be more interesting to specialize this to "schemer who attacks with preparation" types. How would Batman fare against Lelouche, for example?

Scowling Dragon
2012-08-31, 07:21 PM
Batman wins as he depends on plot armor. And plot armor is indestructible.

Mikeavelli
2012-08-31, 07:46 PM
They're different people? :smalltongue:

But on that note, I think it would be more interesting to specialize this to "schemer who attacks with preparation" types. How would Batman fare against Lelouche, for example?

It really depends, Lelouch is riddled with psychological weaknesses and insecurities, which Batman excels at discovering and exploiting. Indeed, this is exactly how Schniezel ended up nearly beating him.

If we assume Batman can deduce how Geas works (he's deduced more complicated things), and create geas-proof goggles (he's engineered more complicated things) - then it would be pretty simple for Batman to locate Lelouch, sneak into wherever he's at, and beat the stuffing out of him.

Lelouch's main defense against this sort of thing has always been the manipulation of social and political circumstances to ensure he's not in the position where someone would be punching him in the face in the first place. Batman exists as a superhero specifically to get around that defense. I think Lelouch is the clear loser here.

Ravens_cry
2012-08-31, 07:54 PM
Sometimes I wonder which is more prevalent and potent, the kneejerk 'Batman wins with prep time' meme or the equally obnoxious kneejerk backlash (or should I say Batlash?) against him.
Batlash sounds terribly kinky.:smallamused:

kpenguin
2012-08-31, 07:59 PM
If that's what you're into.:smalltongue:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/Bat_lash.JPG

Lord Raziere
2012-09-02, 01:42 AM
Lelouch's main defense against this sort of thing has always been the manipulation of social and political circumstances to ensure he's not in the position where someone would be punching him in the face in the first place. Batman exists as a superhero specifically to get around that defense. I think Lelouch is the clear loser here.

Unless Lelouche plans just for that sort of thing and has his fighting mecha resistance handy…or y'know, actually takes CC's code and becomes immortal...

Kitten Champion
2012-09-02, 01:56 AM
I wonder how Harry Dresden would fair in a fight against Batman They're pretty similar, at least in terms of motivations, personal histories, moral codes, general methodologies, ect. As far as "they're nearly invincible with prep-time", those are the two I think of.

Forum Explorer
2012-09-02, 02:13 AM
I'd give it to Harry any day of the week or given equal amounts of prep time. If one side had substantially more preptime then the other then I'd give it to that one.

Water_Bear
2012-09-02, 08:46 PM
Unless Lelouche plans just for that sort of thing and has his fighting mecha resistance handy…or y'know, actually takes CC's code and becomes immortal...

I'm not so sure about that. Batman has taken out robots much scarier than Knightmares and out-planed terrorists at least as smart and ruthless as Zero. And being immortal actual works in Batman's favor; if there's nothing he can do to kill him, there is absolutely nothing Batman will refuse to do to stop him.

That's not to say Lelouch has no chance; I'd say he's at least as much of a threat as Ra's al Ghul (comics not movies). He has the intellect and temperament to figure out Batman's identity, and to use Bruce's own psychological hangups against him. Between his Geas, his strategic skill, and the Black Knights he could put up a decent threat; if he can maneuver Batman into position and get eye-contact the fight is completely over.

If they met on the pages of a DC comic-book, Batman would pull out a last-minute win with anti-Geass contacts and a tape recorder. If they met in the anime, Batman would survive but fail to stop him, and the battle would cause the injury or death of one of Lelouch's dozens of love interests sending him into a spiral of angst. Damn I love that show...

Devonix
2012-09-02, 08:59 PM
The best explanation I've heard for Arkham Asylum is that the Asylum (or the land itself) is tainted in some fashion and wants it's deranged inhabitants to escape and thus criminals find themselves 'lucky' on top of their skills and plans in their escape attempts. Like...strategically placed camera will mysteriously go on the fritz just as a guard is passing, or another inmate will cause a ruckus that draws the guards and not remember why.

I mean, there's not an awful lot the guards can do if the prison itself is malevolent and conspires to free the inmates.

@Mikeavelli: You know, despite overall liking that movie, I really disliked that scene just for Batman having somehow mysteriously figured out Apolyptian encryption when there was far more plausible routes they could have gone like 'I attached explosives to your hellspores' which is just as bad for Darkseid I'd imagine.


Comic makes more sense. Batman didn't figure out the codes he was using Mr. Miracle's Mother Boxx which not only was keeping him alive during Darkseid crushing his body in that grip. it also decifered the codes.

Since the Mother Boxx is a sentient supercomputer normaly wielded by the son of Highfather Darkseid's rival in the DCU

Xondoure
2012-09-02, 09:12 PM
I'm not so sure about that. Batman has taken out robots much scarier than Knightmares and out-planed terrorists at least as smart and ruthless as Zero. And being immortal actual works in Batman's favor; if there's nothing he can do to kill him, there is absolutely nothing Batman will refuse to do to stop him.

That's not to say Lelouch has no chance; I'd say he's at least as much of a threat as Ra's al Ghul (comics not movies). He has the intellect and temperament to figure out Batman's identity, and to use Bruce's own psychological hangups against him. Between his Geas, his strategic skill, and the Black Knights he could put up a decent threat; if he can maneuver Batman into position and get eye-contact the fight is completely over.

If they met on the pages of a DC comic-book, Batman would pull out a last-minute win with anti-Geass contacts and a tape recorder. If they met in the anime, Batman would survive but fail to stop him, and the battle would cause the injury or death of one of Lelouch's dozens of love interests sending him into a spiral of angst. Damn I love that show...

Geass is one hell of a power. Especially since "obey my every command" is a valid use. Batman has to figure out what he's up against before a defense could be made, and Lelouch is keen to take advantage of such a fact.

So Lelouch should win, but given how much the universe hates Lelouch and loves Batman, yeah, Bruce Wayne, easily.

Lord Raziere
2012-09-03, 01:34 AM
Geass is one hell of a power. Especially since "obey my every command" is a valid use. Batman has to figure out what he's up against before a defense could be made, and Lelouch is keen to take advantage of such a fact.

So Lelouch should win, but given how much the universe hates Lelouch and loves Batman, yeah, Bruce Wayne, easily.

oh god no you just uttered the words that'll make Lelouch win.

cause he has a crazy way of winning despite the universe hating him so much. the point where the Batman thinks he has won, the point where all Lelouch's plans go utterly haywire, Lelouch will pull something that makes him win anyways despite the high cost in doing it.

that and while Batman's entire character is based around how no, he won't cross the line and no, he is going to going to keep to his code of morality no matter what. Lelouch's entire character is based on him crossing as many lines as possible while still trying to make everything better in the end.

Devonix
2012-09-03, 05:44 AM
oh god no you just uttered the words that'll make Lelouch win.

cause he has a crazy way of winning despite the universe hating him so much. the point where the Batman thinks he has won, the point where all Lelouch's plans go utterly haywire, Lelouch will pull something that makes him win anyways despite the high cost in doing it.

that and while Batman's entire character is based around how no, he won't cross the line and no, he is going to going to keep to his code of morality no matter what. Lelouch's entire character is based on him crossing as many lines as possible while still trying to make everything better in the end.

you mean that line Batman's actually crossed on more than a few occasions.

LaughingGnoll
2012-09-03, 09:55 AM
Spiderman, if you agree with these guys (http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/death-battle-batman-vs-spider-man)

In other non-video related news, I think a good case could easily be made for anyone who has a unique combat style which can't be mastered by Batman himself, for whatever reason. Elemental bending and the Force, for example, are specific techniques/combat styles which only have counters in other forms related to that power. Fighting Avatar Aang wouldn't be something Batman could really plan his way out of, because the counter to bending seems to be other forms of bending.

Similarly to the Force. While Yoda can block/reflect/absorb Count Dooku's Force Lightning, it's probable that Batman couldn't.

Karoht
2012-09-03, 10:26 AM
Spiderman, if you agree with these guys (http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/death-battle-batman-vs-spider-man)

In other non-video related news, I think a good case could easily be made for anyone who has a unique combat style which can't be mastered by Batman himself, for whatever reason. Elemental bending and the Force, for example, are specific techniques/combat styles which only have counters in other forms related to that power. Fighting Avatar Aang wouldn't be something Batman could really plan his way out of, because the counter to bending seems to be other forms of bending.

Similarly to the Force. While Yoda can block/reflect/absorb Count Dooku's Force Lightning, it's probable that Batman couldn't.
Can Batman block a Telekinetic from throwing him around a room like a ragdoll? Or holding him helpless in the air and then chopping him to bits with a lightsaber? I'm not suggesting that a force user could do this and defeat bats, I'm merely asking if there was a verdict on the effectiveness of such a tactic.

Lord Raziere
2012-09-03, 12:55 PM
you mean that line Batman's actually crossed on more than a few occasions.

really? anything canonical and widely accepted as canonical? or is it just one of those pieces of "canon" that everyone agrees isn't canon and tries to forget forever, or is one of those various side-comics of parallel universes where the entire premise is different, and therefore it is OK for Batman to cross the line because parallel universe?

cause if its one of the latter two, it doesn't count.

Karoht
2012-09-03, 01:30 PM
one of those pieces of "canon" that everyone agrees isn't canon and tries to forget forever...
cause if its one of the latter two, it doesn't countWait, hold on, canon that fans try to ignore stops being canon because the fans try and ignore it?
Just clarifying. Never heard of that being a thing in any fandom (or even among the fan-dumb) I've ever seen so... yeah, is that actually a thing?

Lord Raziere
2012-09-03, 02:12 PM
Wait, hold on, canon that fans try to ignore stops being canon because the fans try and ignore it?
Just clarifying. Never heard of that being a thing in any fandom (or even among the fan-dumb) I've ever seen so... yeah, is that actually a thing?

you never heard of discontinuity? :smallconfused: In my experience the actual canon, and the fanon (the canon the fans accept) are two wildly different things. Mostly because fans have their own vision of how a certain work "should" be and don't want the work to deviate from that vision. so they declare certain things non-canon because they don't like it. seems a perfectly normal part of fandoms.

Water_Bear
2012-09-03, 04:08 PM
I know Batman killed during his early stories, and maybe once or twice in the regular canon books (not counting Elseworlds or Movies), but hasn't he been officially "no killing" for decades?

Now that I think of it, with all the reboots and retcons, has he actually officially killed anyone in current continuity? My guess is that he hasn't, but I'm not up on the new DC continuity.

Traab
2012-09-03, 04:37 PM
you never heard of discontinuity? :smallconfused: In my experience the actual canon, and the fanon (the canon the fans accept) are two wildly different things. Mostly because fans have their own vision of how a certain work "should" be and don't want the work to deviate from that vision. so they declare certain things non-canon because they don't like it. seems a perfectly normal part of fandoms.

That just... seems silly to me. I could understand ignoring stand alone story arcs that were written by other people or something, but just deciding, "I dont like what he did there, so I will pretend it didnt happen." doesnt seem viable. You might as well state that you dont like a certain weakness a superhero has, so you will pretend it doesnt work in an argument over who would win. And karoht, no, he shouldnt be able to stop a telekinetic from lifting him into the air and chopping him in half. Not without potentially weeks and months of planning ahead of time to come up with a counter of some sort. If darth vader/luke skywalker showed up out of nowhere and attacked batman, he would be killed. Assuming they didnt take him lightly.

Triscuitable
2012-09-03, 04:55 PM
- Anyone without an easily discernable weakness provided that Batman doesn't have weeks to find and engineer a specific weakness for them.

- Anyone who can reach Batman levels of planning on their own.

Dr. Doom and Dr. Who for example.

It's "The Doctor", not Dr. Who. That's a double-wrong, because the common misconception is Doctor Who.

Dr. Who is the human genius played by Peter Cushing, who piloted his spaceship, which he called Tardis (note: no capitals; it's a word, not an acronym) which could travel through time and space. He appeared in a few American films in the 70's.


I almost get the feeling Pyramid Head has become a given, even though he was originally a very specific thing. It's like his original appearence was so iconic that he became a general part of Silent Hill.

He probably wouldn't show up, but if he did, that wouldn't be too surprising either.

It's been given a new name in each incarnation. In the film, it had no name. In Silent Hill 5, it was the Boogeyman; there were two (three, in one ending) that existed in Shepherd's Glen. It can be assumed that the town just really liked what James' mind had created, and decided to keep it as an enforcer-like blueprint.


Now that I think, Captain America might be able to beat Batman. He's Batman's equal or superior both physically and heroically and he might be able to guilt-trip him to make it a straight up boxing match... with kicks, shields and batarangs, of course. Still, tough fight.

Batman's always turned the tables to give him an edge, be it fair or not. If he was outmanned, he would seperate them and pick them off, one by one. If he was outgunned, he'd take them away. If he's outmuscled, he makes sure to set up his fight to have the optimal conclusion.

On a more important note, we should specify which Batman we're talking about. If this is the more deceitful and less temperamental Batman of the animated series, that's an important detail. He's a drastic contrast to the more violent and intimidating Nolanverse batman. The "in-the-middle" would be along the lines of the Arkhamverse Batman, who is meant to take the best notes of the best Batmen and turn them into one unified character (Nolanverse's brutality and design, Animated's personality and gadgets, the Burtonesque world and Batmobile, etc).

Devonix
2012-09-03, 07:27 PM
really? anything canonical and widely accepted as canonical? or is it just one of those pieces of "canon" that everyone agrees isn't canon and tries to forget forever, or is one of those various side-comics of parallel universes where the entire premise is different, and therefore it is OK for Batman to cross the line because parallel universe?

cause if its one of the latter two, it doesn't count.

Pretty much all of them

Burton and Shoomacher movie Batman has killed
Nolanverse Batman has killed.

golden age on up to current Batman has killed on a few occasions. all main DC Universe not counting alternate universes and continuities.

I'm fairly certain that only Batman TAS and Brave and the Bold batmen are the only ones I recall never actually killing anyone.

Lord Raziere
2012-09-03, 07:39 PM
Then this whole "Batman doesn't kill" thing is pretty much a lie?

wow. I actually dislike him even more now. not only is his hype annoying, but now his own morality is inconsistent, people say he has code against killing but if almost every single Batman has killed somehow- well I doubt that he is the devoted to his "code" or whatever.

Dienekes
2012-09-03, 08:34 PM
Pretty much all of them

Burton and Shoomacher movie Batman has killed
Nolanverse Batman has killed.

golden age on up to current Batman has killed on a few occasions. all main DC Universe not counting alternate universes and continuities.

I'm fairly certain that only Batman TAS and Brave and the Bold batmen are the only ones I recall never actually killing anyone.

And even TAS Bats has let Ra's die (mind you, he couldn't do anything to stop it once and another time it's because Ra's crossed the line so far that killing what letting what Ra's was die was the most decent thing to do). And if you count some of the movies with the same voice actors as in the animated series canon he's threatened to nuke an entire planet. He also left Owlman to die, though technically Owlman could have saved himself but decided not to.

Unfortunately with the exception of Burton/Schumacher Batman, writers like to make Batman cross the line and present it as a big BIG thing. And since writers like going for the easiest path to drama that means that him crossing the line is pretty much a consistent occurrence at least once per iteration.

Lord Tyger
2012-09-03, 11:22 PM
Other people have said Doctor Doom, but let me go a little more in depth as to why:

Motivation: One of the advantages Batman has is how insanely driven he is. He saw his parents die in front of him, and channeled this into making himself the best at everything so he could avenge them/protect others from suffering the same fate/never be powerless again (pick your favorite interpretation).

Doom's mother died when he was young- and by died I mean got dragged to hell. Later his father (certainly in a psychological if not biological sense) died while holding Doom in his arms. Doom grew up in a land where his people where consistently marginalized, oppressed, and hunted for sport. He'll never give up, he'll never admit defeat because he'll never acknowledge that others have that sort of power over him again.

Multidisciplinist: Batman is the best or near the best at a lot of different things. Detective, engineer, martial artist, acrobat, stunt driver, chemist, escape artist, the list goes on.

Doom did much the same thing (more science, less stunt driving, but he did master martial arts- Captain once America estimated that Doom would be a match for him hand to hand, without the armor)- and then he mastered the mystic arts too, just to round out his skill set.

Actually, in a lot of ways, Doom would make a great Batman villain. Here's how I see it going.

They initially cross paths in their relative youths, when the Waynes sponsor a promising young Latverian to be educated at Empire State University. This puts Doom a bit older than Bruce, but not an awful lot- put Bruce at the older end of the spectrum for losing his parents, and Doom at the younger end of the spectrum for being in college, and they're fairly close.

Of course, at this point, Doom has lost his parents and started down his path, which will be sealed at college when he meets Reed Richards and is scarred in an attempt to contact his mother. He probably doesn't think much of the younger boy, but he does remember the Waynes, and Doom never leaves a debt unpaid.

Later, Doom is scarred and Bruce loses his parents. Both end up travelling the world for their own reasons. They meet again, years later, in Tibet, where Bruce is studying martial arts and Doom has seized control of a rogue monastery. Doom is seeking some rare mineral to use in the construction of his armor, which unfortunately lays under the monastery Batman is training at.

Cue conflict, in which Bruce winds up interfering with Doom's plans, eventually destroying the mineral deposit. Doom appears and fights with Bruce, defeating him but, recognizing him, spares him to repay his debt to the Waynes, warning him that he will not tolerate further interference. Bruce is a little confused by this, since he's yet to master his deductive skills, and Doom's already concealing his face. Troubled, Bruce departs, determined to hone his skills more than ever, which leads him to Lady Shiva.

Later, after Bruce has become Batman and returned to Gotham, and Doom has seized control of Latveria, a Latverian citizen is murdered because Gotham. In the course of his investigation, Bruce runs into agents of Doom who are ruthlessly pursuing the same killer, but with radically different ideas as to what constitutes "justice." Batman prevents them from straight up executing the killer, manages to get him into police custody, and gets the Latverians expelled from the US. He returns to the Batcave, and settles in for a bit of well-earned 'rest' (for Batman, this means studying crime statistics) when an outside force seizes control of the Batcomputer, and Doom's masked visage appears, reminding Bruce that he had warned him once about further interference in Doom's affairs. The computer explodes.

Cue a large scale attack by Doom on both Bruce Wayne's and Batman's assets and resources. Long storyline, winding up with most of Batman's Gotham allies captured or incapacitated. Batman ultimately only triumphs by the fact that, unlike Doom, he's able to fit himself into a larger community, and have actual allies, rather than just minions and pawns- he rallies a group of heroes and fights back, ultimately maneuvering Doom into a position where, to continue the fight would mean open conflict with the US, which Bruce, having infiltrated Doom's Latverian castle, points out would not be in the best interests of the Latverian people. Doom concedes the point, but mentions that, during all of the confusion, the criminal over whom this whole thing started has been killed.

Devonix
2012-09-04, 07:34 AM
Then this whole "Batman doesn't kill" thing is pretty much a lie?

wow. I actually dislike him even more now. not only is his hype annoying, but now his own morality is inconsistent, people say he has code against killing but if almost every single Batman has killed somehow- well I doubt that he is the devoted to his "code" or whatever.

Batman doesn't kill was never really an in canon thing. Batman doesn't Execute was the big thing. He won't go in planning to kill someone but sometines things happen. Sometimes it's the only way to take out the opponent. Even as recent as new 52 with Matman vs the court of Owls where the only way to stop the operatives was to freeze them or outright kill them.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-04, 09:04 AM
I wonder how Harry Dresden would fair in a fight against Batman They're pretty similar, at least in terms of motivations, personal histories, moral codes, general methodologies, ect. As far as "they're nearly invincible with prep-time", those are the two I think of.

In any kind of fair fight, Harry wins, because magic.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-04, 09:45 AM
In any kind of fair fight, Harry wins, because magic.

Harry's a battlemage, though. Unless he breaks out the real hardcore stuff like that gravity slam spell from Changes, most of his impromptu meet-roll-initiative stuff is blasting, shields, etc. It's more powerful/resilient than, say, a machine gun/flamethrower/riot shield, but conceptually it's nothing Batman doesn't know how to handle. "Magic" covers a very wide spectrum across media, and while Harry is way up their in raw brute power, he's rather limited without his own version of prep time.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-04, 10:01 AM
Yeah I respect Harry immensely, but he gets beat up way too often to be up to handling Bats. I mean there's a character in the Dresdenverse at least as broadly competent as Harry himself explicitly compared to Batman. Though Justice League comparisons there make me a little sad most of the time.

Now if by "fair fight" one means say an open field facing each other at a range of I don't know twenty paces or something then yes. Harry throws up his shield to stop the inevitable Batarang and then force magic stomps Bats into the next county. But put them at melee range or in any place able to sneak up on one another Harry is very likely going down.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-04, 10:48 AM
Harry's a battlemage, though. Unless he breaks out the real hardcore stuff like that gravity slam spell from Changes, most of his impromptu meet-roll-initiative stuff is blasting, shields, etc. It's more powerful/resilient than, say, a machine gun/flamethrower/riot shield, but conceptually it's nothing Batman doesn't know how to handle. "Magic" covers a very wide spectrum across media, and while Harry is way up their in raw brute power, he's rather limited without his own version of prep time.

He's used the gravity spell in one of the shorts, as well...the limitation there is that it's pretty horrifically lethal, and laws of magic, yadda, yadda. Now, neither contestant will want to kill, and both have some pretty hardcore willpower. That prevents either of them from taking the "cap him in the back of the head" route. Both WILL kill if they really, really have to, but it's something that gets worked up to, not an opening move.

Both, given some prep time, are pretty amazing at finding things/people and puzzling things out. Both can take a pretty hardcore beating.

Bats has more money.

Harry has more firepower. In addition, thanks to the fairy realm, Harry has an insurmountable advantage in terms of hiding, etc.

Both, if pushed to it, have others they can call upon for help. Some of these are pretty crazy, but in a straight duel between the two? Harry's got the edge, even if it is close.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-04, 11:09 AM
Sure, if they both get equal amounts of prep time, I'd say Harry can do more with it than Bats, and could probably take the advantage. Just dropping them into a metaphorical cage match right out of bed is where Harry is at his worst (as we've seen numerous times in-novels).

Tyndmyr
2012-09-04, 11:11 AM
Sure, if they both get equal amounts of prep time, I'd say Harry can do more with it than Bats, and could probably take the advantage. Just dropping them into a metaphorical cage match right out of bed is where Harry is at his worst (as we've seen numerous times in-novels).

Would agree. That said, that's also true with Bats. It just doesn't tend to happen as much in the novel(secret identity and all that).

Triscuitable
2012-09-04, 02:09 PM
While it's safe to say Batman and Harry would be evenly matched, it's also likely that Batman would put on the cheating shoes and set up some traps to assure his victory.

If it were Superman and Harry fighting, however, Harry would win. Why? Superman has two weaknesses: Kryptonite and magic.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-04, 02:14 PM
Oh, both will cheat.

Also, someone needs to write this.

Forum Explorer
2012-09-04, 02:24 PM
Thing is Harry is willing to kill with his gun. Doesn't want to sure, but won't hesitate to kill someone with a gun or by pushing them to their deaths. As long as its not magic he's fine with it.

But that means it's mundane stuff that Batman can counter relatively easily.

If we give them access to allies and such then Harry has a big advantage.

Also Harry gets a lot stronger throughout his series. We'd need to take him at a specific point.

Taken with just their standard equipment Harry is weaker and slower then Batman. His stealth is worse too.

However he can disrupt delicate equipment easily and unstoppablely. His shield can block pretty much anything Batman can throw at it and he can use the Sight to negate Batman's stealth. He can escape easily by going through to the Fairy Realms and his magic packs a very powerful punch (literally! :smallbiggrin:) He doesn't need much off of Batman to track him down for a rematch if necessary. Also he does have and use a gun.

So overall Harry should win against Batman. As long as both have equal amounts of preptime.

Eldan
2012-09-04, 04:38 PM
Harry would just fanboy out and ask Batman for an autograph.

Mikeavelli
2012-09-04, 06:12 PM
Harry would just fanboy out and ask Batman for an autograph.

I think this would be the cause of the conflict that gets them fighting.

In regards to timescale, how does Harry immediately before the beginning of Changes sound?

He grows in power fairly linearly throughout the series until the spoiler moment we're all thinking of, at which point he appears to be exponentially more powerful than before, and...

Him and some friends turn out to be a pretty good match for the entire red court

I don't think anyone has a really good idea what he's actually capable of post-changes.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-04, 06:50 PM
While it's safe to say Batman and Harry would be evenly matched, it's also likely that Batman would put on the cheating shoes and set up some traps to assure his victory.

If it were Superman and Harry fighting, however, Harry would win. Why? Superman has two weaknesses: Kryptonite and magic.

Really situational on Bats and Harry... but Harry is out of his league on Supes.

Supes and magic is only a relative weakness. The quintessential example of the Captain Marvel's lightning bolt hurts Supes but isn't a one shot. Harry has maybe his gravity bomb (that thing is ridiculous) which take too long.

But Batman totally situational. Straight fight depends on range. Devious plot, can go a lot of ways. I figure Bats can sucker Harry more often then not... then have to get out of the burning building alive.

Devonix
2012-09-04, 09:31 PM
Superman isn't Vulnerable to magic, it's just that he isn't immune to it. A magic sword who's properties are that it cuts through anything will cut through Superman just the same as it will anyone else.

A magic spell that turns men into pigs will work on Superman just like everyone else.

Regular lightning doesn't hurt Superman at all. But Magic lightning has properties that will severely hurt him but not just put him down.

Triscuitable
2012-09-04, 10:39 PM
Thus meaning the illegal curses would do the trick.

Lord Tyger
2012-09-04, 10:42 PM
Thus meaning the illegal curses would do the trick.

Actually, legal magic might too, if Harry gets the jump/time to do research. A Superman action figure in a magic circle with a spell to cut him off from getting power from the sun springs to mind. But yeah, in any sort of straight fight, it all comes down to Superman's speed, even before questions of what he is and isn't invulnerable come into play.

Traab
2012-09-04, 11:01 PM
Actually, legal magic might too, if Harry gets the jump/time to do research. A Superman action figure in a magic circle with a spell to cut him off from getting power from the sun springs to mind. But yeah, in any sort of straight fight, it all comes down to Superman's speed, even before questions of what he is and isn't invulnerable come into play.

Honestly, supermans speed is rarely utilized as much as it could be. He uses it to get to where he is going really really fast, or to dodge massive energy attacks or whatever, but the fact is, his speed is so extreme very few earthly threats could do anything but be crushed instantly if he wished to. Super speed + super strength + virtual invulnerability = insta win. Im not saying its never used, but it only seems to come into play against other superhumanly fast opponents. Or be used along similar lines as standing there and looking bored as the bad guys shoot him, as a psychological ploy to grind their helplessness against him deep into their fragile psyches.

You rarely see say, metallo, get punched 70 times in between heartbeats, or get his head knocked clean off in between him activating the little door into his kryptonite power core, and it actually opening enough to effect him.