Good (or at least, not evil) Drows

[t209]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237581
This comic is the only D&D comic to show not only Orcs and goblins, but also drow as living beings discriminated for being "monsters". I would put Drizzt but his character is clinched and made fun of.
The only "good" dark elves I know are
1. Drowtales (Though most of them are jerks in my opinion)
2. Morrowind (Lives in volcanic area, but still hold slaves and have racist views towards non Dark Elves but considered as greyscale in Elderscrolls Universe).

[Water_Bear]

Yeah, it's kind of a problem how few good Dark Elves there are. Especially since Elves are the paragons of Mary Sue-ness and are typically white blonds.

I guess, technically, the original Norse Dökkálfar (Dark Elves) and Svartálfar (Black Elves/Dwarves) were pretty decent dudes unless you tried to pull a fast one on them. Maybe not "Good," but Lawful Neutral sounds about right.

[t209]

Yeah, it's kind of a problem how few good Dark Elves there are. Especially since Elves are the paragons of Mary Sue-ness and are typically white blonds.

I guess, technically, the original Norse Dökkálfar (Dark Elves) and Svartálfar (Black Elves/Dwarves) were pretty decent dudes unless you tried to pull a fast one on them. Maybe not "Good," but Lawful Neutral sounds about right.

So how about the one from Amalur?

[Prime32]

In LotR most of the elves other than Galadriel were dark elves, including Elrond.

[Water_Bear]

So how about the one from Amalur?

From who now?

[t209]

From who now?

from the game, "Kingdoms of Amalur: The Reckoning".

[Water_Bear]

from the game, "Kingdoms of Amalur: The Reckoning".

I've never played it, but their wikipedia page and the Zero Punctuation review I watched make them sound kind of generic.

[Senator Cybus]

In the Bioware CRPG Baldur's Gate 2, Viconia the female Drow cleric starts off evil, but, away from the influence of the Underdark, ends up with a neutral alignment by the end.

Assuming that you pursue a romance with her, and get that just right. And don't mind her referring to you as 'filth' for about 80% of the game. :smallbiggrin:

[t209]

Does Salamanders Space Marine count as good drows? They look like drows (dark skins, red eye, and inhabits cavern cities), but they are the real paladins (space wolves are too chaotic to be paladins) and willing to protect innocent civilians from enemies, completely different from Greay Knights (looked like a spawn of Miko and Kore).

[Kitten Champion]

Does Salamanders Space Marine count as good drows? They look like drows (dark skins, red eye, and inhabits cavern cities), but they are the real paladins (space wolves are too chaotic to be paladins) and willing to protect innocent civilians from enemies, completely different from Greay Knights (looked like a spawn of Miko and Kore).

I don't think so, they're just an underground society of humans -- by WH40K reckoning at least. Same as, for instance, Morlocks.

As compared to the Dark Eldar who are the de facto Drow and were obviously made for this trope.


There is a Dark Elf society in Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari, although their colouring and capacity to generate spheres of darkness are the only reasons they'd be referred to as Dark. Otherwise they play the usual Elves role in the universe.

This is similar to the Dark Elves in The Chronicles of Siala series, by Alexey Pehov. The Dark Elves are the only Elves the protagonists meets, and while somewhat haughty and difficult to deal with, are Lawful Good. They, the Light Elves -- and the Orcs for that matter -- are virtually identical. The major difference between the Light and Dark Elves is the magic they choose to use, with Dark Elves being shamanistic and Light Elves employing human arcane magic. They're all, literally, dark-skinned and have generally dark features.

Other than that, Romulans from Star Trek. Some of whom are neutral or good. And.. Dark Templar from Starcraft.

[Kyberwulf]

Night Elves from World of Warcraft. They are good Dark Elves.

[TheThan]

How about Pirotess from Record of Lodoss War.

[t209]

Night Elves from World of Warcraft. They are good Dark Elves.

They are the ones who introduce me to Dark Elves. Though did not realize them as evil until I read OOTS.
Edit: And Murphy's Law (By Coffee Included) is the only one to portray Drows as good aligned (Most positive drows, except Drizzt, are portrayed as jerkass), swamp dwelling and portrayed as oppressed species (like Redcloak's reason).

[pffh]

I guess, technically, the original Norse Dökkálfar (Dark Elves) and Svartálfar (Black Elves/Dwarves) were pretty decent dudes unless you tried to pull a fast one on them. Maybe not "Good," but Lawful Neutral sounds about right.

Those are much closer to small trolls and goblins then traditional fantasy elves though.

[MLai]

How about Pirotess from Record of Lodoss War.
She's the hot elf.
Therefore good or evil is irrelevant.

[Chromascope3D]

Those are much closer to small trolls and goblins then traditional fantasy elves though.

The latter are, yes. The former, however, are about as traditional as elves can get.

[pffh]

The latter are, yes. The former, however, are about as traditional as elves can get.

Not really. To quote Gylfaginningu:


Sá er einn staðr þar, er kallaðr er Álfheimr. Þar byggvir fólk þat, er Ljósálfar heita, en Dökkálfar búa niðri í jörðu, ok eru þeir ólíkir þeim sýnum ok miklu ólíkari reyndum. Ljósálfar eru fegri en sól sýnum, en Dökkálfar eru svartari en bik

What this says is that Dökkálfar live underground are black (ie ugly and well black) and do not look or act like the Ljósálfar. Furthermore in pictures and carvings they're depicted as fairly trollish.

And considering this paragraph in Gylfaginning is the only primary source we have on them I think we should go with that depiction.

[Chromascope3D]

What this says is that Dökkálfar live underground are black (ie ugly and well black) and do not look or act like the Ljósálfar. Furthermore in pictures and carvings they're depicted as fairly trollish.

That quote merely says that Light Elves are really light and Dark Elves are really dark. Other than that, it doesn't specify exactly how else they look different. Also, where can I find these pictures?

The thing is, even if they look somewhat more like a troll, what makes them any different? At heart, they are still the same Dark Elves that half of modern fantasy elves are based off of (The other half being Light Elves).

[pffh]

That quote merely says that Light Elves are really light and Dark Elves are really dark. Other than that, it doesn't specify exactly how else they look different. Also, where can I find these pictures?

The thing is, even if they look somewhat more like a troll, what makes them any different? At heart, they are still the same Dark Elves that half of modern fantasy elves are based off of (The other half being Light Elves).

In the sagas when someone is described as dark it usually means ugly, note that it says "the lightelves are prettier then the sun but the darkelves are as black as coal".

The quote also says that they do not look like them (understatements are common and this can be understood as they really do not at all look anything like the lightelves) and "miklu ólíkari reyndum" is basically saying that they are at least not to be trusted if not downright evil.

And right now I'm not finding any pictures since for some reason google refuses to give me icelandic results only english ones so I'll concede on that point. But how can modern fantasy elves be based on something that we do not really know anything about other then what says in that paragraph?

Same goes for the Light Elves since again they are only mentioned in that paragraph.

Aren't modern fantasy elves based in the British idea of elves? The Norse ones have always been more dickish then the fantasy elves. Especially the Hidden people.

[Chromascope3D]

But how can modern fantasy elves be based on something that we do not really know anything about other then what says in that paragraph?

Because all modern elves are based on Tolkein's interpretation of that one paragraph. He believed it to mean that Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar looked like each other, but with skin on opposite ends of the light spectrum, so he wrote it into his novels. And every other aspiring fantasy author followed suit after that.

Thus, modern Dark Elves are the same as Dökkálfar by direct descendance of interpretation.

[pffh]

Because all modern elves are based on Tolkein's interpretation of that one paragraph. He believed it to mean that Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar looked like each other, but with skin on opposite ends of the light spectrum, so he wrote it into his novels. And every other aspiring fantasy author followed suit after that.

Thus, modern Dark Elves are the same as Dökkálfar by direct descendance of interpretation.

Oh alright then.

Still untrustworthy buggers.:smalltongue:

[MLai]

Because all modern elves are based on Tolkein's interpretation of that one paragraph. He believed it to mean that Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar looked like each other, but with skin on opposite ends of the light spectrum, so he wrote it into his novels.
Wait wait wait, WHAT?!
Tolkien never wrote about elves like these:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/Drizzt.png

[Jayngfet]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237581
This comic is the only D&D comic to show not only Orcs and goblins, but also drow as living beings discriminated for being "monsters". I would put Drizzt but his character is clinched and made fun of.
The only "good" dark elves I know are
1. Drowtales (Though most of them are jerks in my opinion)
2. Morrowind (Lives in volcanic area, but still hold slaves and have racist views towards non Dark Elves but considered as greyscale in Elderscrolls Universe).

Drowtales elves are slaving bastards largely ruled by factions of insane nobility. They treat non-elves like literal animals and about half of them see no problem with infecting their souls with parasite demons. It may or may not also be canon that they're also child molestors but the fact that such a thing was even written in to begin with is disturbing enough even without the subtext making it very clear the author thought that was ok.

They are in no, way, shape, or form good. They are viewpoint characters but the viewpoint has, unless the retcons have gotten even more drastic and mary-sueful since I jumped ship, always been about sociopathic stab happy idiots. The fact that they also happen to be the author's fetish doesn't change the fact.

[Knaight]

If one is willing to use a space opera equivalent, there are certain factions within the Protoss of Starcraft. The protoss are long lived creatures who are magically psionically powerful and that use swords energy blades heavily, while having a nature connected culture. In short, they are space elves. The dark templar are pretty much Drow equivalents in a lot of ways.

[MLai]

I'm surprised you mentioned Protoss instead of Eldar.

[Chromascope3D]

Wait wait wait, WHAT?!
Tolkien never wrote about elves like these:


Indeed he did. (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Moriquendi) They were mentioned in the Silmarillion as Elves with dark skin, who never made the Great Journey across the sea. Fantasy authors took that idea and ran with it, leaving us with the Dark Elves we identify today.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/Drizzt.png

I don't remember if he specified that they lived underground, but since the Dökkálfar did, and there's nothing keeping people from picking up the Prose Edda and reading it, it's likely that they could've taken that trait directly from the source, and the rest from Tolkein.

[Knaight]

I'm surprised you mentioned Protoss instead of Eldar.

I'm probably going to have to turn in the remnants of my geek cred here, but I generally dislike Warhammer 40K, and don't bother tracking it in any detail as a result.

[MasterGhandalf]

In the Malazan Book of the Fallen series, the Tiste (local elf-equivalents) somewhat turn the traditional light/dark elf dichotomy on its head. Though the series as a whole is very grey-shaded and cynical, the Tiste Andii (dark elves, basically, who strongly resemble drow down to their leader, Anomander Rake, having white hair, though not all Andii do) are generally cast as a positive, sympathetic faction, albeit one given rather more to angsty brooding than is strictly good for them. The Tiste Liosan (your traditional blond, pale High Elves) are by contrast pretty horrible and ideological extremists obsessed with purity. The Tiste Edur (associated with shadows) end up somewhere in the middle.

[MLai]

@ Cdr. Fallout:
I remember that part of the Simarillion. The elves who didn't go on the pilgrimage across the sea. But they're not "dark skinned." Nor were they radically different from the normal elves (the way the normal D&D elves differ from the D&D drow). They were simply the elves who didn't go. They're called "Of Darkness" because they never bathed in the light of Valinor, not because they look like photo negatives or live underground.

@ Knaight:
Why do you dislike W40K but is ok with Starcraft, if I may ask?

[Forum Explorer]

I'm surprised you mentioned Protoss instead of Eldar.

The Dark Eldar can't be considered good in any way.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Drowtales elves are slaving bastards largely ruled by factions of insane nobility. They treat non-elves like literal animals and about half of them see no problem with infecting their souls with parasite demons. It may or may not also be canon that they're also child molestors but the fact that such a thing was even written in to begin with is disturbing enough even without the subtext making it very clear the author thought that was ok.

And most of that (except the events of the last 20 or so years) is completely justified. Let's see... The overworld is basically elf equivalent of nuclear wasteland, they have very little in the way of food, there's 100,000 people confined in a tiny cavern a few to a few dozen square kilometers in size, much of the available space is used to grow mushrooms (the only food you can get) and all the clans are basically former nation-states that probably used to hate each other at some point.

It's like putting WWII era Russians, Germans, Americans, French and Japanese on an island the size of an average university campus, with crazy pope's guards running around killing anyone who isn't catholic enough. Now take away all the food and make sure you can never permanently leave the island unless you want to age and die within a 2-3 human years.

Frankly, I'm surprised they're doing as well as they are.

They are in no, way, shape, or form good.
...And yet they're still in many ways nicer than many human societies were. Like they allow personal freedoms, commoners are free to do whatever the hell they want (their crappy lives are a result of the crapsack world and lack of space/food, not evil nobles), slaves in most clans are mostly used as household servants rather than, well, slaves (unlike, say, democratic Athenians who let slaves/criminals die in mines within a few months). Even in war (at least amongst each other) they try to keep collateral damage and civilian casualties to a minimum, while for us raping, looting and burning was the norm well into the 19th century.

About the only ones that are legit evil are the Sharens (and even then, not everyone) and a few individual characters from other clans. Although interestingly one thing you haven't mentioned is that all the clans are more like Mafia than any government. What's with all the controlling territory to get tribute, small-scale street warfare, making decisions based on who gave you more money.

You're completely right, however, about author fetishism with, well, everything in there.

[hamishspence]

The Dark Eldar can't be considered good in any way.

That said, in the Path of the Eldar novel Path of the Outcast, there are corsair ships with a mixture of Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar outcasts as part of the crew. The protagonist is a Craftworld Eldar- the ship captain in the later stages of the book is an exiled Dark Eldar.

Still some way from "not-evil"- but might qualify as "less evil".

[Knaight]

@ Knaight:
Why do you dislike W40K but is ok with Starcraft, if I may ask?

Because the people who made Starcraft understand subtlety and restraint restraint, are capable of avoiding clutter in their settings, and manage to avoid absurd exaggerations. Warhammer 40K, meanwhile has no subtlety, less restraint, tons of mess and clutter, and seems to consist completely of absurd exaggerations in regards to just about everything.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Because the people who made Starcraft understand subtlety and restraint restraint, are capable of avoiding clutter in their settings, and manage to avoid absurd exaggerations. Warhammer 40K, meanwhile has no subtlety, less restraint, tons of mess and clutter, and seems to consist completely of absurd exaggerations in regards to just about everything.
To be fair, that's kinda the point of Warhammer.

[Jayngfet]

*snip*

Frankly, I'm surprised they're doing as well as they are.


[QUOTE]

Those are reasons, not excuses. Evil doesn't suddenly not become evil because you know why it does what it does. You can understand, you can sympathise, but it doesn't change the fact that a good deal of what they do is objectively evil. You can say they have bad circumstances, but trying to excuse bad behavior because of that cheapens every single instance in fiction of people with bad circumstances NOT being psychotic monsters.

[QUOTE]
...And yet they're still in many ways nicer than many human societies were. Like they allow personal freedoms, commoners are free to do whatever the hell they want (their crappy lives are a result of the crapsack world and lack of space/food, not evil nobles), slaves in most clans are mostly used as household servants rather than, well, slaves (unlike, say, democratic Athenians who let slaves/criminals die in mines within a few months). Even in war (at least amongst each other) they try to keep collateral damage and civilian casualties to a minimum, while for us raping, looting and burning was the norm well into the 19th century.

About the only ones that are legit evil are the Sharens (and even then, not everyone) and a few individual characters from other clans. Although interestingly one thing you haven't mentioned is that all the clans are more like Mafia than any government. What's with all the controlling territory to get tribute, small-scale street warfare, making decisions based on who gave you more money.


Dude, that also doesn't excuse anything. There is a reason by moral standards we don't live like those societies of the past. We consider those actions evil. Hell, even compared to that you can't really argue the Drow are any better or even equal to most simply because of the intricacies most slavery systems cited for "neutral examples" that don't exist.

Likewise, there were domestic slaves. Though the thing to remember is that we haven't actually seen drow mines, at least not since I stopped reading. How exactly do you think they're going to get their ULTIMATE SUPER AWESOME UNBREAKABLE MAGICAL IRON MAN ARMOR if not by mining? The thing about slavery as a system is the implications are kind of standard. You kind of have to assume the hard labor is done by slaves.

As well, there's a big difference between the kind of localized war fought between close neighbors and the kind of fighting between nations or even individual cities. If you want a better look at how the Drow handle total foreigners look at how they deal with again, humans, or maybe Orcs, or any of the other such races.

You're also claiming that the only "legit evil" happens to be the people in charge. This ignores that most of their allies are also insane, and their enemies aren't exactly that much better.

[t209]

http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=4278
Plus the Drows from Drowtales can be like Space Marines (Ruthless, Fanatic, and a bolter and chainsword away from being one).
Then again, the world of Drowtales is grimdark.
Humans can be ruthless since one of them bathe in elven blood. Even the surface Elves are caste driven apartheid regime.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Evil doesn't suddenly not become evil because you know why it does what it does. You can understand, you can sympathise, but it doesn't change the fact that a good deal of what they do is objectively evil. You can say they have bad circumstances, but trying to excuse bad behavior because of that cheapens every single instance in fiction of people with bad circumstances NOT being psychotic monsters.

The only other option for them is to limit the number of children and in general curtail any kind of population growth and kill off or abort any extra children, kinda like how some real world governments are doing now... (no more on this matter as per rules). Except in Drowtales Drow culture individual rights trump group interests and children are just about the most precious thing there is, as well as a sing of status. Hence, overpopulation and resulting conflicts.

Dude, that also doesn't excuse anything. There is a reason by moral standards we don't live like those societies of the past. We consider those actions evil.
Nope, the reason is we consider slavery and serfdom economically inefficient, no more and no less. Serfs were only freed when large numbers of workers were needed to work in factories and large farms with tenant workers became more efficient than taxing mom-and-pop households and making them work on the lord's estate. Re: industrial revolution. Slaves (in European societies) were freed because of the general transition from a centralized government with large farms to decentralized feudalism where a large number of farmers was needed to support their liege lord and his men-at-arms. And resulting serfs weren't much better off.

Also, an educated worker in a factory is quite simply more productive than a slave in a sweatshop, and even then we still have people in large parts of the world that are in essence (if not de jure) no better off than the slaves, the only difference is that they have a choice in which company to work for in a sweatshop, or starve. And a lot of the work done by slaves can now be done by machines, which simply wasn't possible until ~200 years ago.


As well, there's a big difference between the kind of localized war fought between close neighbors and the kind of fighting between nations or even individual cities. If you want a better look at how the Drow handle total foreigners look at how they deal with again, humans, or maybe Orcs, or any of the other such races.
They're speciest, sure, but we'd be pretty speciest too if chimps suddenly decided to talk and build funny little dirt towns. Plus, the Drow deal pretty positively with surfacers; with two of the clans having pretty egalitarian diplomatic and trade connections. Sure, Sarghress raid, pillage and loot, but then again, we did that well into the Napoleonic Wars.

You're also claiming that the only "legit evil" happens to be the people in charge. This ignores that most of their allies are also insane, and their enemies aren't exactly that much better.
Sharens are only in charge on paper; every clan is pretty much it's own little state paying homage to the figurehead empress/Pope: she has lots of influence, but no way to enforce anything other than going to war with the clan. And she is technically *spoiler*.

What you're doing is applying modern Western/Humanistic morality to basically a medieval post-apocalyptic world. If you want to prove Drow as evil, you have to show them as more evil than contemporary human societies (14-18th century Europeans, depends on how you compare their magitek to out technology). Except they're not.

[Tvtyrant]

WoW's Night Elves count I believe.

[Forum Explorer]

The only other option for them is to limit the number of children and in general curtail any kind of population growth and kill off or abort any extra children, kinda like how some real world governments are doing now... (no more on this matter as per rules). Except in Drowtales Drow culture individual rights trump group interests and children are just about the most precious thing there is, as well as a sing of status. Hence, overpopulation and resulting conflicts.

Nope, the reason is we consider slavery and serfdom economically inefficient, no more and no less. Serfs were only freed when large numbers of workers were needed to work in factories and large farms with tenant workers became more efficient than taxing mom-and-pop households and making them work on the lord's estate. Re: industrial revolution. Slaves (in European societies) were freed because of the general transition from a centralized government with large farms to decentralized feudalism where a large number of farmers was needed to support their liege lord and his men-at-arms. And resulting serfs weren't much better off.

Also, an educated worker in a factory is quite simply more productive than a slave in a sweatshop, and even then we still have people in large parts of the world that are in essence (if not de jure) no better off than the slaves, the only difference is that they have a choice in which company to work for in a sweatshop, or starve. And a lot of the work done by slaves can now be done by machines, which simply wasn't possible until ~200 years ago.

They're speciest, sure, but we'd be pretty speciest too if chimps suddenly decided to talk and build funny little dirt towns. Plus, the Drow deal pretty positively with surfacers; with two of the clans having pretty egalitarian diplomatic and trade connections. Sure, Sarghress raid, pillage and loot, but then again, we did that well into the Napoleonic Wars.

Sharens are only in charge on paper; every clan is pretty much it's own little state paying homage to the figurehead empress/Pope: she has lots of influence, but no way to enforce anything other than going to war with the clan. And she is technically *spoiler*.

What you're doing is applying modern Western/Humanistic morality to basically a medieval post-apocalyptic world. If you want to prove Drow as evil, you have to show them as more evil than contemporary human societies (14-18th century Europeans, depends on how you compare their magitek to out technology). Except they're not.

Actually he could also just argue that societies in the past were evil as well.

[Jayngfet]

Actually he could also just argue that societies in the past were evil as well.

This is pretty much the case. Arguing that these societies, many of which had major rebellions and incredibly lengthy debates on existing practices, considered themselves good or neutral would be foolish considering how few of them were ever satisfied with where they were. Claiming that that makes it ok downplays the sheer outrage that large sweeping hunks of the population, many of them influential, felt that led to the change from what we had then to what we have now.

Now, to address the inconsistencies within the actual in universe justifications:



And a lot of the work done by slaves can now be done by machines, which simply wasn't possible until ~200 years ago.


Look at their technological level. I mean really, give it a good, hard look and tell me that isn't a poor justification. You're telling me that a society capable of using magical cybernetics, magical giant robots, magical mp3 players, and is capable of advanced metallurgy advanced production of finished goods can't even create simple production machines with three or less moving parts.

This despite, with only the power source being magic, they evidently have enough of a grasp on physics and the ability to create enough moving parts with exacting measurements that would need to be perfect down to a micrometre in order to create three story tall quadrupedal war machines that can move with all the versatility of an animal to scale.

Despite being able to do all of that with what would need to be a modern level understanding of numbers and science and quite possibly farther still, despite the fact that they have a large university devoted to higher learning, despite the fact that they have literally everything in place needed to do it, they can't, and need to rely on slavery. That's what you're arguing at this point.

I mean yeah, it stops them from being evil. It stops them from being credibly intelligent, or even sufficiently so to survive in a universe where the author doesn't worship everything they do.

[HandofShadows]

The problem with Drow/Elf technology is the powersource. Namely the drow ARE the powersource. Drowtales does not use standard magic where people cast spells. All their magic is powered by mana which is produced by all faey creatures. And if you use to much mana energy, you tire yourself out very quickly and can even die. To power some of the older warmachines they toss in a bunch of slaves and suck the life out of them to run it just a few hours. So the "advanced technology" of the drow cannot be mass produced. And no mass production, means no widespread use.


This despite, with only the power source being magic, they evidently have enough of a grasp on physics and the ability to create enough moving parts with exacting measurements that would need to be perfect down to a micrometre in order to create three story tall quadrupedal war machines that can move with all the versatility of an animal to scale.

Such precision is not at all strange. Some suits of armor from the late 14th and early 15th century where so well made you could not get a pin through their (segmented) joints.

As for Drowtakes people. I can think of a number of characters that are not evil and are doing the best they can in a REALLY crappy situation. Ariel, Faen, Diva, Kiel and even Chrys.

[Jayngfet]

Such precision is not at all strange. Some suits of armor from the late 14th and early 15th century where so well made you could not get a pin through their (segmented) joints.


You don't seem to be grasping the sheer scale of what kind of projects these are though. They have good armor, but good armor is easy compared to producing the parts that must be needed to make their giant war-golems. Or really most of their big equipment. Knowledge like that didn't really exist in the 14th and 15th century.



As for Drowtakes people. I can think of a number of characters that are not evil and are doing the best they can in a REALLY crappy situation. Ariel, Faen, Diva, Kiel and even Chrys.

Do you really think evil is just waking up one day and going "oh jeez, I want to stab puppies today?". Most evil things come from people getting caught in a bad situation. Morality isn't a silver age comic book where 90% of bad things done are done by mustache twirling psychopaths. Even some of the worst people in history had their motivations, but at the end of the day even if context can detract some of the fault you have to be aware of which characters have a body count and why.

[HandofShadows]

You don't seem to be grasping the sheer scale of what kind of projects these are though. They have good armor, but good armor is easy compared to producing the parts that must be needed to make their giant war-golems. Or really most of their big equipment. Knowledge like that didn't really exist in the 14th and 15th century.

Sorry, that sort of knowledge not only existed in the 14th and 15th Centuries, it had been around more than a thousand years before that. Loo at Giza, the Great Wall of China, The Parthanon, the Colossus of Rhodes, Angkor Wat, The Siege Tower of Tyre, the Chinese Treasure Ship. It basically all the same thing. And for the Elves such projects are much eisier do to the use of Mana arts.



Do you really think evil is just waking up one day and going "oh jeez, I want to stab puppies today?". Most evil things come from people getting caught in a bad situation. Morality isn't a silver age comic book where 90% of bad things done are done by mustache twirling psychopaths. Even some of the worst people in history had their motivations, but at the end of the day even if context can detract some of the fault you have to be aware of which characters have a body count and why.

This way of looking at things totaly misses my point. Many times in life there IS no good answer. There is no right thing to do. There is only evil choices and really evil choices. Take a look at Kiel. If she didn't take over her Clan and rule it as a tyrant, the (often insane) power hungry summoners would have summomed a demon god that would have turned every Elf in Chel into a meat puppet or killed them. Becoming a tyrant is bad, allowing a whole city become meat puppets is a lot worse. And that is what I was saying.

And for a lot of people, a many more that you would even imagine, they DO want to go out and stab puppies. But they don't because they fear being caught. I have met a lot of people like this. If they think they can get away with it they lie, they steal, they hurt you or even kill. (You can see it any time law and order break down such as in a riot.) There is no real motivations for this sort of stuff other than blind hate and the fact they LIKE hurting other people.

[JadedDM]

How about Pirotess from Record of Lodoss War.

It's been a long time since I last watched Record of Lodoss War, but...was Pirotess good? I remember her being evil. Sympathetic, maybe, but still evil.

[Jayngfet]

Sorry, that sort of knowledge not only existed in the 14th and 15th Centuries, it had been around more than a thousand years before that. Loo at Giza, the Great Wall of China, The Parthanon, the Colossus of Rhodes, Angkor Wat, The Siege Tower of Tyre, the Chinese Treasure Ship. It basically all the same thing. And for the Elves such projects are much eisier do to the use of Mana arts.


You don't seem to understand the vast, vast differences at play here. Yeah, those are great and all, but those are for the most part stationary structures.

There is a VAST difference between making something like that, and making something like that that can move quickly and reliably on legs, with such a degree of stability. That's not something any 14th or 15th century civilization can do. To the best of my knowledge, that's not even something we can do.



This way of looking at things totaly misses my point. Many times in life there IS no good answer. There is no right thing to do. There is only evil choices and really evil choices. Take a look at Kiel. If she didn't take over her Clan and rule it as a tyrant, the (often insane) power hungry summoners would have summomed a demon god that would have turned every Elf in Chel into a meat puppet or killed them. Becoming a tyrant is bad, allowing a whole city become meat puppets is a lot worse. And that is what I was saying.

And for a lot of people, a many more that you would even imagine, they DO want to go out and stab puppies. But they don't because they fear being caught. I have met a lot of people like this. If they think they can get away with it they lie, they steal, they hurt you or even kill. (You can see it any time law and order break down such as in a riot.) There is no real motivations for this sort of stuff other than blind hate and the fact they LIKE hurting other people.

There is no good answer, but there are also less bad answers. Maybe this changed, but when I quit reading most of these characters were kind of stupid. I mean most of the ones listed didn't exactly do much thinking or planning ahead or checking to see if there are other options. They just kind of stumbled around and their actions were softened by other circumstances but that doesn't make it any better in a lot of cases.

And that type of person is severely overplayed in how common they are. Things get stolen in riots, but considering how many riots I've seen first hand and read about happening there's usually some reason that triggers a riot, even if it's a stupid one. The only reason troublemakers get to hide in a riot is because they're the minority compared to people with actual grievances who see no way to fix things but to break stuff and are desperate enough to steal. Claiming they're smashing and stealing just because is quite frankly incredibly foolish.

[oblivion6]

there is another couple good drow in the forgotten realms.

namely Zankefien(drizzt's father) as well as Jarlaxe. i suppose some might argue Jarlaxe is evil but i'd say hes closer to neutral than evil and at times even closer to neutral good.

[The LOBster]

there is another couple good drow in the forgotten realms.

namely Zankefien(drizzt's father) as well as Jarlaxe. i suppose some might argue Jarlaxe is evil but i'd say hes closer to neutral than evil and at times even closer to neutral good.

I think Word of God confirmed Jarly's Neutral Evil. Zak, however, is definitely good. However, he is also dead.

[oblivion6]

I think Word of God confirmed Jarly's Neutral Evil. Zak, however, is definitely good. However, he is also dead.

Jarlaxe neutral evil? have they forgotten his actions in the ghost-king, especially during the aftermath of those events? sure hes not totally good but not evil by any means.

[The LOBster]

Jarlaxe neutral evil? have they forgotten his actions in the ghost-king, especially during the aftermath of those events? sure hes not totally good but not evil by any means.

I'm not well-versed in Forgotten Realms novels, but one can be evil and still do heroic things. Like Belkar!

[hamishspence]

The book that clarifies 3e Jarlaxle as NE is Underdark

The book that clarifies 4e Jarlaxle as "Evil" is Forgotten Realms Player's Guide.

[HandofShadows]

You don't seem to understand the vast, vast differences at play here. Yeah, those are great and all, but those are for the most part stationary structures.

There is a VAST difference between making something like that, and making something like that that can move quickly and reliably on legs, with such a degree of stability. That's not something any 14th or 15th century civilization can do. To the best of my knowledge, that's not even something we can do.

You seem to think the large golems of Drowtaels are actually mecha. They are not. They don't have mechanisms inside of them that causes them move. They are mana powered. We have seen elves cause rock to thrust up out of the ground, fire to move in a pattern, air gusts used to lift a character. And that is why/how a Drowtales golem moves. You are trying to make an apples and oranges comparison and it does not work.



There is no good answer, but there are also less bad answers. Maybe this changed, but when I quit reading most of these characters were kind of stupid. I mean most of the ones listed didn't exactly do much thinking or planning ahead or checking to see if there are other options. They just kind of stumbled around and their actions were softened by other circumstances but that doesn't make it any better in a lot of cases.

So, in otherwords they are acting a lot like people in the real world.



And that type of person is severely overplayed in how common they are. Things get stolen in riots, but considering how many riots I've seen first hand and read about happening there's usually some reason that triggers a riot, even if it's a stupid one. The only reason troublemakers get to hide in a riot is because they're the minority compared to people with actual grievances who see no way to fix things but to break stuff and are desperate enough to steal. Claiming they're smashing and stealing just because is quite frankly incredibly foolish.

I find it unlikely that you have witnessed that many true riots first hand. Unless you are have been to a lot of World Cup soccer games. :smallwink: And frankly your description points to a few trouble makers useing a demonstration (maybe even a violet one) as a cover for their actions. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about hundreds an even thousands of people running out of control. Burning (sometimes HUNDREDS of buildings) looting and attacking/killing people. I don't want to give specifics as it's probably too political.

As for "just because" I see people do that all the time. I was once robbed by some people who where not poor, they didn't need the money, not desperate in any way. They robbed where I worked because they *wanted* moeny (as opposed to needing it) and they did it because they thought it was fun. For even worse examples go look up "thrill killing".

[Jayngfet]

You seem to think the large golems of Drowtaels are actually mecha. They are not. They don't have mechanisms inside of them that causes them move. They are mana powered. We have seen elves cause rock to thrust up out of the ground, fire to move in a pattern, air gusts used to lift a character. And that is why/how a Drowtales golem moves. You are trying to make an apples and oranges comparison and it does not work.


Just because they're magic powered doesn't give them a free pass. Judging by some of the designs they must have reasonably complex joints and moving parts. The golems are only magic in their powers source, which you would know if you actually bothered reading my previous posts. Not to mention that they still have weight, which must be accounted for in terms of actual mana used if nothing else simply because of how important mana is as a power source.

Just because they're magic that doesn't give the author an excuse to be lazy and ignore physics. Joints are still moving parts, things still weigh the same, and there's no real getting around that. Even if it didn't "it's magic" is lazy writing and anyone who uses that excuse in their writing should feel terrible for it.



So, in otherwords they are acting a lot like people in the real world.


Yeah, but we don't call people who's stumbling causes corpses good.



I find it unlikely that you have witnessed that many true riots first hand. Unless you are have been to a lot of World Cup soccer games. :smallwink: And frankly your description points to a few trouble makers useing a demonstration (maybe even a violet one) as a cover for their actions. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about hundreds an even thousands of people running out of control. Burning (sometimes HUNDREDS of buildings) looting and attacking/killing people. I don't want to give specifics as it's probably too political.

As for "just because" I see people do that all the time. I was once robbed by some people who where not poor, they didn't need the money, not desperate in any way. They robbed where I worked because they *wanted* moeny (as opposed to needing it) and they did it because they thought it was fun. For even worse examples go look up "thrill killing".

Which again, oversimplifies the situation. Of course bad people participate in riots. But again, why did the riot even start? I mean yeah, people get angry, but why? The amount of troublemakers rioting for the sake of it is never exactly the majority unless it's a particularly stupid riot. Repeat offenders do get identified for this kind of thing a lot in my experience simply because they're the minority always seen being the ones stealing things.

As well, your evidence is entirely anecdotal, showing what was almost certainly a small number of people as opposed to a larger sample, and while it's certainly a terrible thing to happen to you, you're obviously letting it affect your entire outlook on life disproportionally.

[Metahuman1]

I remember there was a series of forgotten realms books, Daughter of the drow, that had a lot of Eilistraee followers in it and the main character was slowly but steadily converting away form Loth and toward Eilistraee.

Never could find anything other then the first book in the series though so I'm not sure where it went form there.

[oblivion6]

I remember there was a series of forgotten realms books, Daughter of the drow, that had a lot of Eilistraee followers in it and the main character was slowly but steadily converting away form Loth and toward Eilistraee.

Never could find anything other then the first book in the series though so I'm not sure where it went form there.

haha. cant believe i actually forgot about the followers of Eilistraee or however you spell her name. i cant help but think there is another FR drow that everyone is forgetting.

[Metahuman1]

I always wanted to play a tricked out battle cleric serving Eilistraee but I never found the right game and DM for it.

[Kyberwulf]

I would say Zak (from Forgotten Realms) is evil. He may not like it, but he does kill innocent to servive. A decidedly evil act. He puts up with living in the society. He doesn't have the Strength to strike out and give up the life of the Drow. He in fact flourishes in it.

[hamishspence]

He states he's never killed children (and gets very angry at Drizzt during the period when he thinks Drizzt has.)

Doesn't mean he's by any stretch a nice guy though. Not sure if he was ever given an official alignment.

[Kitten Champion]

Zak is weak of conviction, rather than evil or even neutral.

He's like a mobster's wife.

[The LOBster]

Zak is weak of conviction, rather than evil or even neutral.

He's like a mobster's wife.

Which is kinda hilarious, since Salvatore said he modeled the Drow houses of Menzoberrenzan on the Mafia families.

Also, imagining every Drow with either a stereotypical Italian or stereotypical Italian-American accent makes them infinitely more amusing.

[Kitten Champion]

Also, imagining every Drow with either a stereotypical Italian or stereotypical Italian-American accent makes them infinitely more amusing.

*giggles incessantly*

I just got this image of a bunch of Drow in three piece suits, fedora hats, and sunglasses.

[tomandtish]

Nathyrra from Neverwinter Nights HOD.

[Kyberwulf]

I didn't say children. I said innocents, as in people that have done nothing to him. That would warrant death sentences. He is weak, yeah. He does what he has to, to survive. That is the very Definition of Neutral Evil. He will go though the houses of other nobles and kill everything and everyone. He takes explicit joy in killing the Matrons and their daughters. Slaves and non-house nobles are targets as well, if they get in his way.

[Forum Explorer]

I didn't say children. I said innocents, as in people that have done nothing to him. That would warrant death sentences. He is weak, yeah. He does what he has to, to survive. That is the very Definition of Neutral Evil. He will go though the houses of other nobles and kill everything and everyone. He takes explicit joy in killing the Matrons and their daughters. Slaves and non-house nobles are targets as well, if they get in his way.

Neutral Evil is in no way 'lesser' when compared to Lawful or Chaotic Evil. He likes killing Matrons and their daughters because they are his 'oppressors' and he knows how evil they have to be to get that position. And in a battle anyone who gets in your way is more often then not a threat, particularly among drow. Particularly when you don't have anyone backing you up because you were sent so far ahead of the main force in a decapitating strike.

So I'm seeing something closer to Lawful Neutral in an Evil society. He follows Evil laws but doesn't like them or agree with them. He also doesn't have any ability to change said laws.

[Kyberwulf]

He follows the laws because he has to, yes. He doesn't follow the laws causes he believes in the laws in any sense. He just wants to survive, and take as many of the Drows as he can with him before he goes down. He told Drizzt that he would have left if he had the courage. I don't remember correctly, but I do believe he goes out of his way to snub his Matron at every chance he gets. Which would fly in the face of him being Lawful.

[Forum Explorer]

He follows the laws because he has to, yes. He doesn't follow the laws causes he believes in the laws in any sense. He just wants to survive, and take as many of the Drows as he can with him before he goes down. He told Drizzt that he would have left if he had the courage. I don't remember correctly, but I do believe he goes out of his way to snub his Matron at every chance he gets. Which would fly in the face of him being Lawful.

So flat out Neutral then? But on the other hand he does give the impression that he values law and order as well as having a personal code of things that he will not do.

[Kyberwulf]

Nah, Neutral Evil. He actually takes delight in Killing. He takes delight in Torturing. His Personal code and such balances his living in a Chaotic world, so I can seen Neutral, but in NO Way is he neutral in the Good/evil spectrum. He does what he has to to survive, and enjoys his moments he can get revenge.


Look at it this way. If your sentenced to prison. Wither your innocent or guilty, you go there and get attached to a group. No matter how you look at how you got there, or how you feel about it. If you start enforcing for the group, you are guilty of the crimes you do for that group.

That's what makes Drizzt so unique. He was the only one(That we know about.) that just turned his back on said prison life, and walked away.

[Forum Explorer]

Nah, Neutral Evil. He actually takes delight in Killing. He takes delight in Torturing. His Personal code and such balances his living in a Chaotic world, so I can seen Neutral, but in NO Way is he neutral in the Good/evil spectrum. He does what he has to to survive, and enjoys his moments he can get revenge.


Look at it this way. If your sentenced to prison. Wither your innocent or guilty, you go there and get attached to a group. No matter how you look at how you got there, or how you feel about it. If you start enforcing for the group, you are guilty of the crimes you do for that group.

That's what makes Drizzt so unique. He was the only one(That we know about.) that just turned his back on said prison life, and walked away.

I don't remember him taking that much delight in killing. And I don't remember him torturing anyone at all. I think he only enjoyed killing other Drow which he considered (rightly, most of the time) to be complete monsters. He hated killing and fighting 'good' races and didn't get any enjoyment of killing goblins and the like.

And Drow society is considered Lawful Evil.

Are you still considered guilty if by not committing the crimes you are executed horribly? Or transformed into a hideous monster?

[Kyberwulf]

Maybe he did or didn't enjoy most of it, he did enjoy whipping out the tongue of that one chick. Also he might not enjoy killing The good races, or fighting them.. or even killing goblins.. he still killed them. So he could survive, and not get horribly executed or turned into a Totally gross monster. He did it out of the need to survive. He could have walked. He thought about walking. He didn't though.
Hell, he was even going to Kill Drizzt. Rather then try talk to him to show him the way of sticking it to the .. er.. man? He was just going to straight up kill him.

Zak was suppose to show you what would happen to Drizzt if he gave in to just accepting his lot in life. What he would have turned into had he not decided to take the walk. He is a tragic character. He is evil by circumstance.

I am not saying he is wrong, or that I wouldn't do the same thing in his place, I prolly would. I am not so callous to say that I would maintain any sense of being good however. Zak isn't an innocent bystander, or some neutral third party. He is active in contributing to the senseless(Even the DROW recognize its senseless, however it is the Spider queens way.) drow on drow violence. He routinely goes about assassinating and killing at the whim of the Matron.

[Kitten Champion]

I think we've run into one of many scenarios where D&D alignment is poorly suited to label a man.

[Kyberwulf]

No, he is Neutral Evil. It's just people want to believe that intentions are the only thing that matter when determining alignment.

Let me put it this way.

If someone is in a gang. They go around killing, raping, and stealing from people, as well as other gangs. Does it make him any less evil if the whole time he is doing said actions he is being emo about it?

Zak wasn't dragging his feet, about it. trying to fight it in any way. He flourished in it. His Matron stated(As well as her daughters questioning why she let him live.) that if he wasn't so good at his job, he would have had him killed on numerous occasions. Also, he never said he would be a saint if he could do things his way. He just balked at having to be under the yolk of someone else.

[Forum Explorer]

No, he is Neutral Evil. It's just people want to believe that intentions are the only thing that matter when determining alignment.

Let me put it this way.

If someone is in a gang. They go around killing, raping, and stealing from people, as well as other gangs. Does it make him any less evil if the whole time he is doing said actions he is being emo about it?

Zak wasn't dragging his feet, about it. trying to fight it in any way. He flourished in it. His Matron stated(As well as her daughters questioning why she let him live.) that if he wasn't so good at his job, he would have had him killed on numerous occasions. Also, he never said he would be a saint if he could do things his way. He just balked at having to be under the yolk of someone else.

The gang analogy doesn't really work because it's his entire society and practically his entire world. He was literally raised to behave in a certain way and he manages to rise a little above that.

And wasn't he going to kill Drizzit because he thought that Drizzit had murdered a child?

Now he certainly isn't a good character and if the choices were between good and evil I would say he was evil. However we do have neutral which I think he fits into pretty well. The reason that I say he's neutral is because if he were in a different (good/neutral) city he wouldn't be harming anyone. He'd likely be a guard or a trainer. Basically if he's evil then he doesn't want to be evil but doesn't see/isn't brave enough to figure a way out.

[Kyberwulf]

The gang analogy works perfectly well. That is how their world is, exactly. Someone said that their society is based of the mafia.

The whole "he is only does evil, cause he has to" argument falls through too. He may feel he has no other choice. He does however, instead he chooses to do all the acts of evil so he doesn't die. He not only does it, he does it well. He could have gone through life doing just enough not to get noticed.. but enough to not die either. He instead choose to become a bad ass with weapons thereby,(And full well knowing that would attract attention of the Higher ups) ensuring he would have to employ those skills against his fellow drow, slaves and other members of the underdark.

It is mentioned in the books that Zak Enjoys killing the Drow. It makes him feeling better about things. He is willingly and enjoyingly killing members of his OWN race. Drizzt had the audacity to actually not Liking killing anything.

[Forum Explorer]

The gang analogy works perfectly well. That is how their world is, exactly. Someone said that their society is based of the mafia.

The whole "he is only does evil, cause he has to" argument falls through too. He may feel he has no other choice. He does however, instead he chooses to do all the acts of evil so he doesn't die. He not only does it, he does it well. He could have gone through life doing just enough not to get noticed.. but enough to not die either. He instead choose to become a bad ass with weapons thereby,(And full well knowing that would attract attention of the Higher ups) ensuring he would have to employ those skills against his fellow drow, slaves and other members of the underdark.

It is mentioned in the books that Zak Enjoys killing the Drow. It makes him feeling better about things. He is willingly and enjoyingly killing members of his OWN race. Drizzt had the audacity to actually not Liking killing anything.

Not really. Gangs are illegal. Imagine if that's all there was and no normal society existed and you'd have a much better comparison.

I don't see how being incredibly skilled makes him worse. If he was less skilled he likely would have died or been killed. Or he wouldn't have had the influence to train Drizzt and teach him to be Good. You can argue that if he was Good then he should have picked death. I don't think I disagree with that. But I'm saying he's Neutral.

Zak enjoys killing them because he thinks they are all complete monsters and that by killing them he's making the world a better place. He's not entirely wrong on that note.

[Metahuman1]

I love how instead of thinking up good drow were going back and forth about how evil a particular Drow is and having an alignment debate.

[Kyberwulf]

Gangs are illegal. That's what your going with. It doesn't matter about the legality. What matters is the society in which they live. There are rules they have to follow. He follows those rules. Drows don't make any compunction about there rules. They recognize that they are evil. The revel in it. There is a normal society however. Above the underdark. All over. I don't think he would have to have chose death. He could have left Menzzobarenzen. As he was planning on with Drizzt. The fact is before Drizzt He didn't have the courage to leave.

I don't remember, but I think Matron Malice even comments how it almost scares her how much he throws himself at killing his fellow Dark elves.

[Kyberwulf]

I love how instead of adding to the debate, or offering a new instance of a good drow. You instead choose to employ sarcasm. :O :P

lol.

I didn't mean to kidnap the Thread. I just found it odd to call Zak good.

[Kitten Champion]

Drows don't make any compunction about there rules. They recognize that they are evil.

No, they don't. They believe they're justified. That's part of being the fantasy Nazi-counterparts. It's Zak who comes to that conclusion for his own reasons, and is partly responsible for Drizzt coming to share it.




Zak enjoys killing them because he thinks they are all complete monsters and that by killing them he's making the world a better place. He's not entirely wrong on that note.

It's funny, the old ranger who trains Drizzt revels in slaughtering Orcs because of their nature. This is left to stand as reasonable in spite of the obvious complication that Drizzt represents. A good Orc, now that's far fetched.

Zak is a self-hating Drow, somewhat unique as far as fantastic racism goes.

[Kyberwulf]

Just because they feel Justified. Doesn't preclude they could know they where evil. They recognize other emotions such as love, and honor. The ability to turn the cheek, as well as the other one. They know about the gods of good, and the dogma that they follow. They recognize that Lloth is a demon(was). They followed her in spite of that fact. They don't make any claims to be good. Or honorable. They know she is a demon. They follow her cause she gives them Power. They have since the "good" elves, and the gods of good elves kicked them off the surface.

[t209]

What do you think about Dunmers in Elderscrolls, the first fantasy series to portray Orcs and dark elves as "good guys" (quoted due to morally ambiguous nature of ES series)? I mean Dunmers in Morrowind are racist, xenophobic, and slave holders (just like drows, minus underground cities).
Still there are people who view Dagoth Ur as freedom fighters.

[Fallbot]

Even though I haven't read the books for a while (and didn't much like them when I did), I'm going to weigh in and agree with Kyberwulf.

Zak took a lot of pleasure in killing other drow just because they were drow. Probably some (many?) of them deserved it, but that's not why he killed them. He did it out of some twisted sense of self loathing, and as a way to get some sick jollies in. Really, if we didn't get to see inside his head and hear him justifying to himself why he does the things he does, he wouldn't appear much different from the average drow in the street.

As far as characters in trashy fantasy go, he was fairly interesting, but then Drizzt had to write all those awful, pompous journal entries justifying his father's actions and I start to wonder if he was really intended as a tragic monster, or as a noble if weak hero making the best of a bad situation. It could be Drizzt's own bias, but those journals always came across as a bit of an author tract.

[Libertad]

In Planescape, the Svartalf Drow of Ysgard (Norse afterlife type of Plane) rejected Lolth and largely keep to themselves in the underground layer of Nidavellir.

A rather obscure canon example.