PDA

View Full Version : Our Simple Fix for Wizards



ShadowHare
2012-08-30, 10:35 PM
So, I've seen a lot of mods for wizards, attempting to rectify their Tier 1 status to a more reasonable Tier 3 or so. Out of all the mods I've seen (many of which are excellent and I have the utmost respect for), I feel like attempts at fixing the wizard have succeeded the least - for various reasons, but not the least of which is complexity.

For all the balance problems of the wizard, the wizard is a pleasantly simple class. It's extremely straight-forward, with a list of class abilities and statistics that can be easily committed to memory. At worst, you'll need to look up the spells-per-day part of the chart every now and then. What bugs me is that all attempts I've seen to de-power the wizard invariably cause the class to be many times more complicated, taking away powerful but basic abilities and replacing them with numerous or confusing weaker abilities.

My group and I decided to try a very simple debuff to the class, one that, while certainly lacking delicate manipulation and finesse, seems to help well. I'd like to see what everyone else thinks.

The rule is as follows:

Wizard Generalists must choose 5 barred schools, using the same rules that specialists use (but gain no benefit from specialization). Specialists do not exist. No other changes are made.

I'm curious to see whether people find this to be a brutal abomination to the rules, or perhaps at least ineffectual. Certainly, it does nothing to effect certain specific overpowered spells, or combinations of spells (but it does prevent any given wizard from using any and all said combinations). It does limit their versatility without directly removing power, though. At the very least, we've found that it makes for more fun and interesting wizards, much the same way rules for limiting Clerics to spells related to their domains does - less is more. The characters become more defined and related to their spell selection when limited.

Anyway, I am quite serious about discussing the ramifications of this rule, even if it might seem silly to some. I appreciate any and all comments and discussion. :smallbiggrin:

Yitzi
2012-08-31, 12:07 AM
A Conjuration/Divination/Transmutation wizard would still probably be overpowered.

Vadskye
2012-08-31, 12:33 AM
I like you. You definitely have the right idea about how to make a house rule - simple, intuitive changes when at all possible. But as Yitzi said, the imbalance between the schools will make this a difficult rule to use in practice. Some schools will end up being almost mandatory (there will never, ever, ever be a wizard who bans both conjuration and transmutation) and others will be ignored by all but the most dedicated of mages (hi, enchantment and necromancy). Unfortunately, rebalancing the schools fully takes a lot more effort, and requires making a whole bunch of minor changes that you probably don't want to deal with.

With that said, I think I'd definitely prefer a game where wizards functioned this way to core. It's simpler for the wizard and dramatically reduces the extent to which it can solve every problem, which is one of the biggest issues with the wizard.

LordErebus12
2012-08-31, 12:55 AM
I simply love that pathfinder did for wizards (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/wizard.html#_wizard)... if we are just talking core rulebook, then the Evoker or Conjurer are amazing but the Spellslinger (Ultimate combat; an arcane gun user) is beyond cool.

To focus in everything means you must be a shut in... the concept of a universal wizard is a concept i find insulting... you want to generalize, mr. random player? then generalize yourself by deepthroating this +5 reliable shotgun while I use mage hand on the trigger. :smallfurious:

Edit: sorry if my descriptive language offended anyone... Im just passionate about specialist wizards...



others will be ignored by all but the most dedicated of mages (hi, enchantment and necromancy).

Amen Vadskye... you hit the kobold from 1000 feet with a bow, blindfolded.

I almost made the wizard from 3.5 choose three schools and double the amount per day castings to make it more interesting.

toapat
2012-08-31, 01:18 AM
Amen Vadskye... you hit the kobold from 1000 feet with a bow, blindfolded.

I almost made the wizard from 3.5 choose three schools and double the amount per day castings to make it more interesting.

Only 3?

Id only allow you to pick a School or a single Descriptor.

anyway, the entire problem with Wizard is inherent in the name of the class itself. In modern terms outside DnD, Wizard means a Powerful, Generalist spellcaster, and, excluding rare scenarios like gods and Divine servants like Elminster, they shouldnt exist, because it devalues the nature of magic itself. A mage should have to choose a school of study in which they specialize so that they may learn the high end spells of that school or magical knowledge. the broader the focus, the weaker they are, and the less flexibility they get.

LordErebus12
2012-08-31, 01:35 AM
Only 3?

Id only allow you to pick a School or a single Descriptor.

anyway, the entire problem with Wizard is inherent in the name of the class itself. In modern terms outside DnD, Wizard means a Powerful, Generalist spellcaster, and, excluding rare scenarios like gods and Divine servants like Elminster, they shouldnt exist, because it devalues the nature of magic itself. A mage should have to choose a school of study in which they specialize so that they may learn the high end spells of that school or magical knowledge. the broader the focus, the weaker they are, and the less flexibility they get.

The problem comes in though, is that the 3.5 wizard is flavor-less and without much, save the bonus feats... Id also like to say that Eliminster was a generalist in every way, having like 4 different classes... that being said, he was touched by the divine, of course he is powerful, he contained divine power within himself for a long period of time.

The problem with them is when restricted to little schools of magic, all else aside, the class is unplayable and has little advantage until later levels allow it to branch out with magical items to help give it some sort of edge. also, with the inability to cast spells from those many opposed schools, the overall magical crafter is diminished.

Logic
2012-08-31, 01:50 AM
There is the "Feat tax" idea.

Spell Focus grants access to the spells of the appropriate school from levels 4-6, and Greater Spell Focus grants 7-9.

Not the best solution*, but it works.

*This is one of those "Using a hammer to swat a fly from your friend's forehead" methods.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-08-31, 02:07 AM
I like you. You definitely have the right idea about how to make a house rule - simple, intuitive changes when at all possible.

Yes! Expanding the scope of an existing rule makes for very simple and well-planned houserule. I agree, this idea probably does fix most of the problems the wizard has.

I would like to note that in Pathfinder they changed how specialization works. Instead of completely banning barred schools, specialists must instead use two spell slots to prepare barred spells. They also suffer some magic item creation penalties (enough that they can't take 10 to craft items using their highest-level cross-school spells). I think this houserule works even better in Pathfinder because of this. You could even allow specialist wizards by having them ban all but their specialist school (so everything but their specialist spells take 2 slots to cast).

However, this leaves issues for CoDzilla. Maybe you could institute a similar rule, such that clerics have to use 2 spell slots to prepare anything that's not a domain spell for them (and if they have a domain spell that's not a cleric spell they're out of luck). It might be appropriate to let them pick 4 domains appropriate to their deity for the purpose of spell preparation, including their actual domains. This is totally in-character for a cleric because it makes sense that a god of healing would be less forthcoming with spells like blindness/deafness. Spells prepared in multiple slots would still count as single spells for the purposes of spontaneous casting.

Druids can probably remain unchanged because Pathfinder nerfed their wild shape and animal companions hard. Without those buffs druids don't have much besides summoning to work with, and summon nature's ally isn't too overpowered compared to the summon monster lists. If you really have to you could force them to pick domains like the cleric.

Yora
2012-08-31, 02:21 AM
The wizard class is not broken.

The wizard spell list is.

Vadskye
2012-08-31, 02:31 AM
The wizard class is not broken.

The wizard spell list is.

Essentially, yes - but changing the spell list is complicated and requires a lot of fine-tuning, and it's not really possible to make a simple fix for it. (My signature is relevant)

TuggyNE
2012-08-31, 02:46 AM
Essentially, yes - but changing the spell list is complicated and requires a lot of fine-tuning, and it's not really possible to make a simple fix for it. (My signature is relevant)

Expanding on this, I have two observations culled from reading many attempted homebrew fixes. The first is that there is no simple fix for wizards. The second is that there is no simple fix for fighters. Primarily because, as has been alluded to, there's a basic conception of each class that very many players, DMs, and designers share that is fundamentally at odds with game balance for Wizard, it's "scholarly mage that can do anything with enough preparation", and for Fighter it's "guard-type with a decent weapon and a bit of skill". This has strongly shaped their respective "extended class features" (spells and feats, respectively), creating the current mess. There's not much you can really achieve without fixing those.

Deepbluediver
2012-08-31, 09:49 AM
In my wizard fix, a wizard starts at level 1 casting from only a single school, and gains 3 more schools by level 10, so that like other characters his power and versatility increases with his level.


I think that the problem with wizards though, is not entirely due to the class, but to the overwhelming strength of magic.

In my MAGIC fix, I changed a lot more, but I also have a much simpler version for anyone who wants to use it:
All casters gain bonus spells from Intellect.
To cast any spell you must suceed on a Wisdom check equal to 10+twice the spell level. Failure means either you lose the action (like a missed attack) and on a natural 1, you lose the spell slot as well.
There is a feat called "Charasmatic Casting" which allows you to replace the Wisdom check with a Charisma check, if you want to play your caster that way (and for Bards and Paladins).

This does a couple things: it diminishes SAD, and gives spells a chance to fail without needing spell resistance slathered on everything.

toapat
2012-08-31, 10:32 AM
In my wizard fix, a wizard starts at level 1 casting from only a single school, and gains 3 more schools by level 10, so that like other characters his power and versatility increases with his level.


I think that the problem with wizards though, is not entirely due to the class, but to the overwhelming strength of magic.

In my MAGIC fix, I changed a lot more, but I also have a much simpler version for anyone who wants to use it:
All casters gain bonus spells from Intellect.
To cast any spell you must suceed on a Wisdom check equal to 10+twice the spell level. Failure means either you lose the action (like a missed attack) and on a natural 1, you lose the spell slot as well.
There is a feat called "Charasmatic Casting" which allows you to replace the Wisdom check with a Charisma check, if you want to play your caster that way (and for Bards and Paladins).

This does a couple things: it diminishes SAD, and gives spells a chance to fail without needing spell resistance slathered on everything.

Seems a bit complex when compared to the 5th ed's You can only invest upto (Spell slot level*2)+2 casterlevel in your spells

i also dont like how it kinda tramples the flavor of spellcasting currently. Sorcs, for instance, dont know what magic is or how they do it, they just know they can do things like throw Thermal Detonators

Deepbluediver
2012-08-31, 10:47 AM
Seems a bit complex when compared to the 5th ed's You can only invest upto (Spell slot level*2)+2 casterlevel in your spells

This is, like I said, the simplified version, which is primarily focused on tuning downward the sheer strength of magic. At that I feel it suceeds. I would expect people are more likely to use it for inspiration than to take it as is. If you want to read the full version for more ideas, the link can be found in my extended sig.


I dont like how it kinda tramples the flavor of spellcasting currently. Sorcs, for instance, dont know what magic is or how they do it, they just know they can do things like throw Thermal Detonators

Again, the changes where made with balance foremost in mind. I would say that if the only source of flavor for your character is his primary stat, instead of class features, then that is not good design. Sort of like how all melee characters need Constitution for durability and Strength of Dexterity for attack and damage, all casters need Intellect for longevity and Wisdom or Charisma for accuracy and reliability.

Having a high intellect score just means you are good at casting lots of spells every day, whether it comes from years of practice and study, or you are just naturally good at it.

If you think about it, in some ways it actually INCREASES your options for roleplay, since you can now decide which stat is the more important one for you to focus on.

Kane0
2012-08-31, 11:12 PM
As Logic said, we just make most spells of level 4-6 unavailable unless you have spell focus in that school, and the same for 7-9 and greater spell focus. You can still be a generalist but it costs you 2 feats per school.

Logic
2012-08-31, 11:49 PM
Unfortunately, the best solution is not a simple fix.

As some have said before, the problem isn't with wizards themselves, it's the spell list. Amend the spell list (a lengthy procedure) and you can bring the power level down.

To do this, one has to first identify the most broken spells, and find ways to make them less abusive.

I still like the Spell Focus approach.

willpell
2012-09-01, 01:07 AM
My quick and dirty fix for Wizards, if I really want them nerfed without having to try very hard, is just to change the progression from one spell level every 2 levels, to one every 3. Gain 2nds at 4, 3rds at 7, 4ths at 10, 5ths at 13, 6ths at 16, 7ths at 19, and 8ths and 9ths not until epic levels. I haven't actually used this and it probably sucks, but it's an obvious way to power them way down with negligible effort.

Just to Browse
2012-09-01, 02:36 AM
Yeah, this might be balanced if the 7 schools of magic were balanced to each other, but they are definitely not balanced to each other. If you were to go around and balance the spell lists, this could be cool, but then you might as well do a different overhaul.

SiuiS
2012-09-01, 02:36 AM
Only 3?

Id only allow you to pick a School or a single Descriptor.

anyway, the entire problem with Wizard is inherent in the name of the class itself. In modern terms outside DnD, Wizard means a Powerful, Generalist spellcaster, and, excluding rare scenarios like gods and Divine servants like Elminster, they shouldnt exist, because it devalues the nature of magic itself. A mage should have to choose a school of study in which they specialize so that they may learn the high end spells of that school or magical knowledge. the broader the focus, the weaker they are, and the less flexibility they get.

Make Wizard a prestige class. Make one of the requirements "study under a current wizard for X levels". You could even allow for the eeeeevillll version by allowing a character to learn vulgar magic from books instead of a mentor - suddenly there's a half dozen wicked necromancers making sacrifices to every good wizard who can actually wiz proper.


The wizard class is not broken.

The wizard spell list is.

Evaluate what concepts are required for play, and what concepts are just "this class Has spells, so we can just write cool things for it". Then rewrite each school with balanced, thematic spells which achieve necessary game functions, and also some cool things.


Unfortunately, the best solution is not a simple fix.

As some have said before, the problem isn't with wizards themselves, it's the spell list. Amend the spell list (a lengthy procedure) and you can bring the power level down.

To do this, one has to first identify the most broken spells, and find ways to make them less abusive.

I still like the Spell Focus approach.

See, the key behind a wizard is that they have books and books of spells. Eventually... And after haggling, trading or stealing them. Personally, I prefer to switch the sorcerer and wizard spells known lists, so sorcerers get more spells, and sooner. Wizards benefit by not having a limit.

I also enjoy making a lot of ritual effects into rituals. If you want to boost someone's strength, that's gonna take an hour of chanting and smearing invents on the person, not three seconds and some Mumbo jumbo.

Maybe give wizards a restricted, sorcerer-esque list of Known spells, and let them use their texts and notes to attempt to make spells up on the fly similar to epic spellcasting?

NichG
2012-09-01, 02:36 AM
I like the limited schools approach. Honestly, I don't really care if a character is powerful - what I want is for them to not thematically trample on another character's toes. Restricting the themes wizards and casters in general can access helps with this I feel. I did a similar thing in my current campaign (well, kinda similar):

All casters are as normal up through 3rd level spells. 4th level spells and above have been completely replaced with a new spell list. Among these spells there are no necromancy, enchantment, polymorph, Power Word X, weather/environment manipulation, or shadow descriptor spells. Each of these six things is associated with a separate PrC that advances casting and grants access to a special spell list that adds onto whatever spell list you have as a caster. Each level of the PrC gives you access to the next level of spells on that spell list, from 4 to 9 (though you also have to be able to cast spells of that level to take advantage of this).

So for instance, you could be a Wizard with 6 levels of Domitor and 6 levels of Shadowmage, which gets you the enchantment and shadow spells. But you won't have necromancy, weather control, etc. Plus, doing this prevents you from taking other PrCs which might increase the power of what you can do, so there's incentive to choose between versatility and focus.

The players are still too low level to really get into this system yet though, so I don't know how its going to work in practice. I've got two casters in the party, one who wants to go necromantic druid, and another who is trying as hard as he can to be a complete generalist in the system (going archivist-mystic theurge and intending to grab shadow spells and possibly weather control spells in the long run), but that effort has basically completely locked down his build and still can't do literally every spell.

My fix is a bit excessive - I had to sit down and write a few hundred spells to replace everything >3rd level. But the basic idea of forcing wizards to choose a theme is I think a good idea.

Honestly, 'pick three descriptors' is probably a fine way to do it too.

SinsI
2012-09-01, 09:26 AM
15 minute adventuring day is a far bigger problem with wizards than their eventual tier 1 potential...
It is better to take something far more balanced, like psion, and adapt it to use wizard's flavour.

Yitzi
2012-09-01, 09:50 PM
I like the limited schools approach. Honestly, I don't really care if a character is powerful - what I want is for them to not thematically trample on another character's toes.

School restriction is a horrible way to do that, as the vast majority of the stuff that lets wizards trample on the toes of fighters and rogues falls into the Transmutation school. With three schools, they can also grab Conjuration and Divination, and it's hard to find a school whose toes they trample on less than the original system.


All casters are as normal up through 3rd level spells. 4th level spells and above have been completely replaced with a new spell list. Among these spells there are no necromancy, enchantment, polymorph, Power Word X, weather/environment manipulation, or shadow descriptor spells. Each of these six things is associated with a separate PrC that advances casting and grants access to a special spell list that adds onto whatever spell list you have as a caster. Each level of the PrC gives you access to the next level of spells on that spell list, from 4 to 9 (though you also have to be able to cast spells of that level to take advantage of this).

So a wizard who then multiclasses into the Polymorph PrC loses a number of powerful spells...but still has Knock, polymorph spells, summoning...pretty much everything that lets him step on the toes of other classes.

toapat
2012-09-01, 09:58 PM
Conjuration and Divination

Divination cant be barred

NichG
2012-09-02, 12:34 AM
So a wizard who then multiclasses into the Polymorph PrC loses a number of powerful spells...but still has Knock, polymorph spells, summoning...pretty much everything that lets him step on the toes of other classes.

Well, a vastly different set of polymorph-style effects than Polymorph and PaO. More like the specific polymorph line. A caster who goes into the Polymorph PrC gets effects that let them turn into specific animals. IMC that is the way to go CoDzilla, since you can't actually do it directly. What you sacrifice is that you lose the ability to take the various other options, which includes the best summoning stuff (which I should say is non-casting based and sorted into its own PrC).

Yes they still have Knock. Locked doors aren't an issue once anyone can afford an adamantine dagger anyhow.

Yitzi
2012-09-02, 01:20 AM
Divination cant be barred

Yes, under the normal system; if one used a single-school-only system then presumably it could be (or else everyone would have only divination). In the system in this thread, it could be that it can't be barred; if so, it's just as well that I listed it as one of the three non-barred schools in my example.


Well, a vastly different set of polymorph-style effects than Polymorph and PaO. More like the specific polymorph line. A caster who goes into the Polymorph PrC gets effects that let them turn into specific animals. IMC that is the way to go CoDzilla, since you can't actually do it directly. What you sacrifice is that you lose the ability to take the various other options, which includes the best summoning stuff (which I should say is non-casting based and sorted into its own PrC).

You do still end up stepping heavily on other classes' toes, though; the fact that you can't do as much besides that doesn't change that.


Yes they still have Knock. Locked doors aren't an issue once anyone can afford an adamantine dagger anyhow.

I suppose that makes sense. Of course, that does make Open Lock pretty useless...

ShadowHare
2012-09-02, 02:35 AM
Yes, under the normal system; if one used a single-school-only system then presumably it could be (or else everyone would have only divination). In the system in this thread, it could be that it can't be barred; if so, it's just as well that I listed it as one of the three non-barred schools in my example.

Sorry - I do intend for divination to be barrable, despite that being against the normal rules that I stated were used. There are some fairly simple fixes regarding read magic and such that make that perfectly possible.

NichG
2012-09-02, 04:39 AM
You do still end up stepping heavily on other classes' toes, though; the fact that you can't do as much besides that doesn't change that.

I suppose that makes sense. Of course, that does make Open Lock pretty useless...

Well, I think it needs to play out. Its hard to have this conversation meaningfully without reference to the specific spell lists and options available IMC, which I can link to but it gets outside of the point of the discussion here. Mostly the point is, many strongly thematic things are parceled off, so the choices you make there are distinctive. Just like I think you could have a reasonable game with 6 players each playing a different type of wizard each with only one school, you could have a game with 6 players playing a different type of caster here. A plain unoptimized fighter might have his toes stepped on by the Beast Shaman CoDzilla, but he'd have his toes stepped on by a Warblade just as much - I don't think thats quite the standard for comparison.

I mean, in some sense the problem with the god wizard could be solved by raising another 10 classes to Tier 1 just as well as it could be solved by dropping wizard to Tier 3. But first you have to free up some niches in the design space to fit in things that feel different thematically while still being that versatile and powerful, otherwise everyone is just a refluffed wizard.

SiuiS
2012-09-02, 05:37 AM
15 minute adventuring day is a far bigger problem with wizards than their eventual tier 1 potential...
It is better to take something far more balanced, like psion, and adapt it to use wizard's flavour.

Hve you actually had a problem with this fifteen minute day? Because I hve never been in or heard of anywhere but the net, about a game where the other 23 hours 45 minutes weren't important. The enemy doesn't rest, after all. And spells can only do so much unless the story involved is nothing But "find target, murder it" over and over.


School restriction is a horrible way to do that, as the vast majority of the stuff that lets wizards trample on the toes of fighters and rogues falls into the Transmutation school. With three schools, they can also grab Conjuration and Divination, and it's hard to find a school whose toes they trample on less than the original system.



So a wizard who then multiclasses into the Polymorph PrC loses a number of powerful spells...but still has Knock, polymorph spells, summoning...pretty much everything that lets him step on the toes of other classes.

I disagree. If a wizard ends up being built to fiction as a barbarian at the cost of functioning like a thief/heal bot/buffer, then that wizard isnt trammel ing any toes any more than having a fighter paladin or ranger tranmels that barbarian's toes. That's the point of specializing. A larcenous wizard isn't automatically "OMC NO NEED FOR ROGUES EVER NOW", of the wizard cannot also fulfill every other role simultaneously.

toapat
2012-09-02, 07:03 AM
I disagree. If a wizard ends up being built to function as a barbarian at the cost of functioning like a thief/heal bot/buffer, then that wizard isnt trammel ing any toes any more than having a fighter paladin or ranger tramples that barbarian's toes. That's the point of specializing. A larcenous wizard isn't automatically "OMC NO NEED FOR ROGUES EVER NOW", of the wizard cannot also fulfill every other role simultaneously.

depends on how you look at each class. Barbarians are mechanically closer to rogue and paladin then to fighter/ranger

also, check spelling please

SiuiS
2012-09-02, 07:12 AM
Well, a vastly different set of polymorph-style effects than Polymorph and PaO. More like the specific polymorph line. A caster who goes into the Polymorph PrC gets effects that let them turn into specific animals. IMC that is the way to go CoDzilla, since you can't actually do it directly. What you sacrifice is that you lose the ability to take the various other options, which includes the best summoning stuff (which I should say is non-casting based and sorted into its own PrC).

Yes they still have Knock. Locked doors aren't an issue once anyone can afford an adamantine dagger anyhow.

Oh boy. Ruined a DM's day once, when he gave us an NPC who could burn turning attempts to ignore hardness for a minute like an adamantine weapon. Suddenly we were going around locked doors - through the lintels and the walls.

I'd be interested in a link to your wizard prestige classes and such, by the way.


depends on how you look at each class. Barbarians are mechanically closer to rogue and paladin then to fighter/ranger

also, check spelling please

the second word was actually 'trammel' not trample, and it's a function of the software I'm afraid. It's entirely possible for a word to be corrected a full ten seconds after I've done with it. Quite unfortunate, really.

And yes, a barbarian is a sort of Different fighter, but that's my point. Other classes can blend roles and specialties, but if a wizard does it, the wizard is stepping on toes? Removing versatility from every build without removing it from the class would actually fix a lot of perceived issues, even if you could be the class to be whatever.

toapat
2012-09-02, 07:17 AM
And yes, a barbarian is a sort of Different fighter, but that's my point. Other classes can blend roles and specialties, but if a wizard does it, the wizard is stepping on toes? Removing versatility from every build without removing it from the class would actually fix a lot of perceived issues, even if you could be the class to be whatever.

actually, what you are sugesting here is more of something that cant be fixed just with a quick handwave rule. the reason why Wizard is T1 is because:

Conjuration quickly gets rediculously out of hand
Transmutation lets you make yourself a better fighter
Illusion/Enchantment let you end encounters with a single spell.

SinsI
2012-09-02, 07:57 AM
Have you actually had a problem with this fifteen minute day? Because I have never been in or heard of anywhere but the net, about a game where the other 23 hours 45 minutes weren't important. The enemy doesn't rest, after all. And spells can only do so much unless the story involved is nothing but "find target, murder it" over and over.

Well, I mostly play computer D&D games that have this problem*1000.

Of course the DM doesn't have to allow you to wait it out. And you don't have to play a wizard, too, if all you can do in second or third encounter a day is to provide some weak support from behind the lines with your crossbow. Compare it to, say, swordsage, that have a wagon of tricks available no matter how long or often he has to fight.
Sure, a well-prepared high level wizard can make the rest of the party sit it out on some occasions while he takes care of all the opponents himself - but he suffers that same treatment on all the way there.

Yitzi
2012-09-02, 09:24 AM
I disagree. If a wizard ends up being built to fiction as a barbarian at the cost of functioning like a thief/heal bot/buffer, then that wizard isnt trammel ing any toes any more than having a fighter paladin or ranger tranmels that barbarian's toes. That's the point of specializing. A larcenous wizard isn't automatically "OMC NO NEED FOR ROGUES EVER NOW", of the wizard cannot also fulfill every other role simultaneously.

Yes, if the wizard functioning as a barbarian can't do anything else. An optimized transmutation-only wizard can do quite a bit in addition to stepping on the martial classes' toes.

SiuiS
2012-09-02, 04:52 PM
Well, I mostly play computer D&D games that have this problem*1000.

Aaah. Yes, that woul be a different matter. Thank you.


Of course the DM doesn't have to allow you to wait it out. And you don't have to play a wizard, too, if all you can do in second or third encounter a day is to provide some weak support from behind the lines with your crossbow. Compare it to, say, swordsage, that have a wagon of tricks available no matter how long or often he has to fight.
Sure, a well-prepared high level wizard can make the rest of the party sit it out on some occasions while he takes care of all the opponents himself - but he suffers that same treatment on all the way there.

Well, I didn't quite mean the DM should stomp on wizards. There's a difference in scale between having the game conform to the Jim's of a single party member, and ruining the point of even playing a wizard.

I honestly think it is more a matter of perception. I've been through a game, 1-18, where the DM swore up and down that my being a wizard ruined his campaign afterward. But on recollection, I did only five things of note the entire campaign, and spent the rest of it giving everyone else magic items. Wizards (and clerics and Druids and such) can't really be completely utterly fixed in a vacuum. The best we can do is effect a good enough change, and see how it plays out with barbarians doing a half-thousand damage a round at level five, and such.

So is any of this a 'good enough' change?


Yes, if the wizard functioning as a barbarian can't do anything else. An optimized transmutation-only wizard can do quite a bit in addition to stepping on the martial classes' toes.

Yes, but no. See, the super-specialization thing we are talking about in this instance has removed those bugs (in theory). That's what "rewrote the bad spells" means. It's not fair to off-handedly discount what might actually be a workable change because you missed the details.

NichG
2012-09-02, 08:00 PM
I'd be interested in a link to your wizard prestige classes and such, by the way.

Alright, here it is: http://gildedflask.wikispaces.com/file/view/gilded_flasks_phb.pdf

There's a lot of other stuff in there that the casters can't trivially duplicate which in theory should help as well.

Yitzi
2012-09-02, 10:06 PM
Yes, but no. See, the super-specialization thing we are talking about in this instance has removed those bugs (in theory). That's what "rewrote the bad spells" means. It's not fair to off-handedly discount what might actually be a workable change because you missed the details.

Yes, if you rewrite the bad spells (not all of which are level 4+) that'll do it, possibly even without needing such extreme school restriction. I just didn't (and still don't, by the way) see where you said you did that.

SiuiS
2012-09-03, 07:05 AM
Yes, if you rewrite the bad spells (not all of which are level 4+) that'll do it, possibly even without needing such extreme school restriction. I just didn't (and still don't, by the way) see where you said you did that.

Ah, forests and trees. You were responding to the guy who posted just above the one I am responding to, who said they did that. The thing about everything being fine until about FFRP level, then prestige class only?


Gonna check that out when I get a free tab. Device is maxed presently >_<