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Calmar
2012-09-01, 10:39 AM
My campaign suffers from a lack of fish people! Sahuagin, kuo-toa and locatah are not quite what I want for my game, therefore I've created my own kind of fishmen.

Please tell me if they are ok, or if they need adjusting. :smallsmile:

LAKE FOLK

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2010/112/f/0/f0663079adc36ba74072fbd7f4de7025.jpg

This humanoid creature has a catfish-like head with a pair of large, pale eyes and is of a slightly haunched posture. Its body is covered in small silvery-grey scales and it has webbed hands and feat.

Lake folk are a race of seclusive fishfolk that dwells in the murky depths of water meadows and lakes. These creatures are seldomly seen on the surface, for lake folk can endure air only for very limited amounts of time.

Clans of lake folk are most often ruled by matriarchs who usually are potent sorceresses. Sometimes, lake folk are dominated by hags, fey, or powerful mortal spellcasters. However lake folk tend to be Neutral and usually are neither malicious, nor good by human standarts.

Lake folk are most often sorcerers, bards, or rogues. They prefer spears, tridents and other polearms over other weapons, as they seldomly have the means to procure metal.

Lake Folk Traits


Ability Scores +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Intelligence: Lake folk are dextrous and have an innate skill for magic, but they lack the learnedness of other races.
Size and Type Lake folk are Medium monstrous humanoids with the [aquatic] subtype.
Speed Base speed 20 ft.; swim speed 40 ft. A lake folk can move through water at its swim speed of 40 ft. without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The lake folk can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. It can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.
Darkvision Lake folk can see perfectly in the dark up to 60 feet.
Weapon Proficiency Lake folk are proficient with the javelin, longspear, shortspear, and trident.
Skills Acrobatics +2, Stealth +2.
Water Magic Lake folk may alter the energy type of any spell causing [cold] or [fire] damage to deal [acid] damage instead. For example, a lake folk may chose to cast a fireball as an acidball.
Nimble A lake folk gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing light or no armor.
Light Blindness Abrupt exposure to bright light blinds lake folk for 1 round; on subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.
Hold Breath A lake folk can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 times its Constitution score before it risks suffocating.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-09-01, 11:31 AM
I'm using the Advanced Race Guide (www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/arg-creating-new-races), and I think they're a bit overpowered. They're not too bad (just a few points over 10 if you consider water magic to be worth 3 points).

Water magic is interesting. You may want to specify that it changes a spell's damage type, since descriptor doesn't do much normally.

Calmar
2012-09-01, 02:54 PM
Thank you for your feedback, Thomar_of_Uointer! :smallsmile:


Water magic is interesting. You may want to specify that it changes a spell's damage type, since descriptor doesn't do much normally.
I have changed the description of the water magic ability. I hope it is clearer, now.


I'm using the Advanced Race Guide (www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/arg-creating-new-races), and I think they're a bit overpowered. They're not too bad (just a few points over 10 if you consider water magic to be worth 3 points).
Do you have any suggestions which ability should be cut? I felt light blindness and short durability outside of the water would offset some of the lake folk's advantageous features.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-09-01, 03:08 PM
It's okay to let water magic change their descriptor. It just has to change their damage type as well.


Do you have any suggestions which ability should be cut? I felt light blindness and short durability outside of the water would offset some of the lake folk's advantageous features.

I recommend you read the link in my previous post and then ask a more specific question. The ARG prices skill bonuses very high to discourage min-maxxing, so it may not be a bad idea to replace the skill bonuses with "___ and ___ are always class skills".

LordErebus12
2012-09-01, 04:09 PM
Weapon Proficiency Lake folk are proficient with the javelin, longspear, shortspear, and trident.


id remove javelins (worthless underwater) and add these:

Shortspear, Spear, Longspear, Trident, Net and Harpoon.

Harpoon: A harpoon is a barbed spear with an attached rope 50 feet or less in length. If you are proficient in the harpoon, it is a grappling weapon.

Harpoon stats
5 gp
1d6 if small
1d8 if medium
◊3 critical
10 ft. thrown
16 lbs.
Piercing

Fragile: Fragile weapons and armor cannot take the beating that sturdier weapons can. A fragile weapon gains the broken condition if the wielder rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with the weapon. If a fragile weapon is already broken, the roll of a natural 1 destroys it instead.

Masterwork and magical fragile weapons lack these flaws unless otherwise noted in the item description or the special material description.

Grapple: On a successful critical hit with a weapon of this type, you can grapple the target of the attack. The wielder can then attempt a combat maneuver check to grapple his opponent as a free action. This grapple attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature you are attempting to grapple if that creature is not threatening you. While you grapple the target with a grappling weapon, you can only move or damage the creature on your turn. You are still considered grappled, though you do not have to be adjacent to the creature to continue the grapple. If you move far enough away to be out of the weapon's reach, you end the grapple with that action.

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-01, 04:25 PM
I'm using the Advanced Race Guide (www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/arg-creating-new-races), and I think they're a bit overpowered. They're not too bad (just a few points over 10 if you consider water magic to be worth 3 points).

Well, it is just a guide and isn't a core rule book either.

And while on the strong/good side of the base race scale, I don't see anything too good for them as a whole, especially if you're grandfathering in 3.5 material.

I mean, they don't even have the Amphibious quality so they can't even breathe air.

And in retrospect; why do they have Hold Breath? By virtue of possessing the Aquatic subtype they breathe water.

LordErebus12
2012-09-01, 04:27 PM
I mean, they don't even have the Amphibious quality so they can't even breathe air.

And in retrospect; why do they have Hold Breath? By virtue of possessing the Aquatic subtype they breathe water.

this should most likely be addressed by granting them the Amphibious special ability and removing Hold Breath.

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-01, 04:33 PM
this should most likely be addressed by granting them the Amphibious special ability and removing Hold Breath.

Yup.

As is, these guys can only be played in water based campaigns, which really skews them towards the weaker end of the scale instead of the stronger end of the scale when it comes to playing any kind of campaign other than a water one.

Calmar
2012-09-01, 05:55 PM
The lake folk are mostly intended to be a monstrous race, rather than a PC race (similar to bugbears and orcs in most games), hence their lack of air-breathing. I also didn't want to give them racial HD. Hold breath is intended to represent their enduring outside of the water they need breathe.
Giving them the amphibious trait is a viable possibility, though.

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-01, 06:01 PM
The lake folk are mostly intended to be a monstrous race, rather than a PC race (similar to bugbears and orcs in most games),

Well, there's a disparity there honestly.

Statistically, Orcs are a base race. They're not included in the base races, but mechanically they are identical. The only argument is that they're meant to be killed because of Fantastic Racism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasticRacism), but some settings do include them as a rational, non-stereotypically evil society alongside the rest.


hence their lack of air-breathing. I also didn't want to give them racial HD. Hold breath is intended to represent their enduring outside of the water they need breathe.

Well...you do know that it currently only gives them a few paltry seconds to breathe? The highest one will probably ever get is 12 minutes (30 Con x 4 /10 rounds).


Giving them the amphibious trait is a viable possibility, though.

Or lengthening the amount of time the Hold Breath functions or maybe have them take some Con damage after X hours out of water.

awa
2012-09-02, 12:44 AM
if these things are supposed to jump on a boat and kill people a minute or two of air is all they need and in a really long battle they can just jump back in the water to take a breath

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-02, 09:06 AM
if these things are supposed to jump on a boat and kill people a minute or two of air is all they need and in a really long battle they can just jump back in the water to take a breath

Nothing suggests they're evil...so...again, Fantastic Racism and all that just because they're fish folk and Monstrous Humanoids instead of flat humanoids.

Sure, he said they're more meant to "Monsters" than "PCs", but he didn't start this off with an encounter stat-block and then an entry of "Lakefolk as PCs" or something similar.

awa
2012-09-02, 01:25 PM
the creator says their purpose is to be monsters mechanically if they are not intended to be players they don't need mechanics that make them viable as pcs.

not all creatures need to be designed with players in mind

he said they fulfill the same functions a sorc or bugbears in most games.
in most games orcs are evil antagonists.

are their good lake folk? who knows maybe but the pcs are unlikely to encounter them

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-02, 10:46 PM
the creator says their purpose is to be monsters mechanically if they are not intended to be players they don't need mechanics that make them viable as pcs.

Except Pathfinder fully intends Monsters as PCs. That's why they have rules that don't completely punish players for playing Monsters and why in the Advanced Race Guide they created an entire tier for Base races called "Monstrous Races". The whole idea being creating more toned down versions of classic monsters that meshed better at a higher point bracket.


not all creatures need to be designed with players in mind

Well, the creator didn't set these guys up as a monster though. A monster is a stat block and then potentially statistics for "As Characters" section. A base race is just statistics for them as characters, which is what he provided in the opening post.

And Pathfinder has all monsters being playable; there is no longer, "LA: -".


he said they fulfill the same functions a sorc or bugbears in most games.
in most games orcs are evil antagonists.

Eh, that's kind of a sweeping generalization.

And by the fluff he's provided, there's nothing that makes these guys evil. The fluff even specifically says they're usually Neutral and not malicious (but also not good specifically). Monstrous =/= Evil.


are their good lake folk? who knows maybe but the pcs are unlikely to encounter them

Says who? That's kind of your own assumption, not anything the fluff states.

Calmar
2012-09-03, 05:29 AM
Thanks for your replies! :smallsmile:


Except Pathfinder fully intends Monsters as PCs. That's why they have rules that don't completely punish players for playing Monsters and why in the Advanced Race Guide they created an entire tier for Base races called "Monstrous Races". The whole idea being creating more toned down versions of classic monsters that meshed better at a higher point bracket.
I just use the rules, not the setting.


the creator says their purpose is to be monsters mechanically if they are not intended to be players they don't need mechanics that make them viable as pcs.

not all creatures need to be designed with players in mind

he said they fulfill the same functions a sorc or bugbears in most games.
in most games orcs are evil antagonists.

are their good lake folk? who knows maybe but the pcs are unlikely to encounter them

Yeah, thatís what I had in mind. I primarily this format because I don't like racial HD (if I want an average tough specimen, I can give it two or three levels in the warrior NPC class), instead I prefer intelligent creatures to be able to take different classes.


Nothing suggests they're evil...so...again, Fantastic Racism and all that just because they're fish folk and Monstrous Humanoids instead of flat humanoids.

Sure, he said they're more meant to "Monsters" than "PCs", but he didn't start this off with an encounter stat-block and then an entry of "Lakefolk as PCs" or something similar.
I don't like the all too common approach on monstrous races of 'always evil, sees all other races as inferior, attacks intruders on sight', either, therefore lake folk are, on average, not hate-worthy to the common adventurer.
However, that's not to say the lake folk are supposed to be peaceful guys in every case and in a combat oriented game like D&D, some kind of confrontation should be expected. With PCs (in my games) generally being good, most lake folk they have hostile encounters with will most likely be evil, or subjects of powerful evil beings.
So, them emerging for a couple of minutes to strike on surface dwellers does not make them iherently evil in my eyes.

On the technical side, we're agreed that the stats are ok, aren't we? :smallsmile:

LordErebus12
2012-09-03, 07:04 AM
The only problem I have with this is it appears to be a standard race, but as currently written its a purely aquatic race, worthless to PC's as a playable character outside the water unless you drop some major gold or combine some templates.

Plus, If you really want to make this a monstrous race and not a PC race, then I feel you need to add both a stat block, and possibly increase the race's abilities enough to justify at least a CR +1 and some racial HD to make it feel like other monstrous races like the minotaur, centaur, bugbear, etc.

As such its a PC race, in my mind and with one major limitation.


Slow Speed: Merfolk have a base speed of 5 feet. They have a swim speed of 50 feet.
Aquatic: Merfolk are humanoids with the aquatic subtype.
Amphibious: Merfolk are amphibious, but prefer not to spend long periods out of the water.

Twice I've played merfolk, one rode a horse into combat and was a paladin. While on a mount a merfolk can move much faster and can actually dominate a battlefield instead of being a near stationary target, also add in an enhancement bonus to speed or the Fleet feat a couple of times and its not that bad to even crawl around.

The other time it was a merfolk druid who had a magical belt of continuous fly, so no problem there.



I mention merfolk because of the fact that the merfolk is aquatic, much like your own race, but with Amphibious it can leave the water and actually be useful. Honestly as it is, i would never play it in a low level campaign (unless it was aquatic or i had the base funds to provide Air-breathing to it)

This means two things, it can actually be used by a player far easier than yours can, because of lack of breathing air. It also can be a character that at any level, can more or less survive in almost any climate or terrain, excluding the aggressive ones, without magical aid to breathe.

Really it should include a stat block of some sample monsters. Maybe one basic couple of HD monster then one with class levels, maybe some in the Aquatic Druid Variant. I think if you just give it Amphibious ability it will diversify and improve this race dramatically, but as such I just dont feel this is a monstrous race.

Otherwise, I love the Energy Substitution, unique and add much to their flavor, most focusing on acidic magical attacks. Its balanced nicely for a Sorcerer or other Cha caster. I like it overall, but its blemished by the hold breath crap.

LordErebus12
2012-09-03, 07:16 AM
Also, if you were thinking of this race fighting underwater, remember: Freedom of Movement... otherwise you take penalties underwater, for any slashing or bludgeoning weapons, i believe.

Might want to add that in somewhere, so they have a bigger edge when fighting the underwater monsters like Sea Serpent, or Giant Squid and aberrations like the Aboleth.

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-03, 08:18 AM
@Calmar: I'm with Erebus, since he's bringing home something I've already mentioned.

You have not set these guys up as Monsters, you've set them up as a playable race.

And I don't know where you think I ever mentioned Golarion anywhere; I've only ever been talking about the rules. :smallconfused:

awa
2012-09-03, 09:47 AM
pathfinder is not saying all monsters must be designed as a playable race they just made rules to do so with out arbitrary punishment. Their is no reason to change the race so it can be more playable if that's not how they were intended to be used. Actually look at the various bestiaries and their are tons of monsters that are not intended to be played by pcs. following the pathfinder philosophy just means this race lacks a ridiculous level adjustment that does not mean it should be made more playable. by your logic no creature should ever not be able to breath air becuase then it would be hard for a pc to play it.

your argument is basically you don't like that he formatted it as a race instead of making it a level 1 warrior with a race block at the end like they did with orcs. But my question is why bother theirs no point.

also if the race is intended to be roughly equal to a human in power and advance by class level their no point in giving it racial hd or higher stats it already does everything it set out to do.

Not evil doesn't mean nice.

freedom of movement is a high level power with lots of other features just have them use tridents and spears like most fish monsters are depicted using anyway.

the race is just fine power wise its in the same ball park as the pc races

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-03, 10:00 AM
pathfinder is not saying all monsters must be designed as a playable race they just made rules to do so with out arbitrary punishment. Their is no reason to change the race so it can be more playable if that's not how they were intended to be used. Actually look at the various bestiaries and their are tons of monsters that are not intended to be played by pcs.

Name them please. Because while the rules on playing Monster PCs does mention that a DM should be mindful on what or what not to allow in his/her games for the sake of party balance and such, there really aren't any monsters outside of ones lacking an Int score that can't be played.


following the pathfinder philosophy just means this race lacks a ridiculous level adjustment

Pathfinder doesn't use Level Adjustment.


that does not mean it should be made more playable. by your logic no creature should ever not be able to breath air becuase then it would be hard for a pc to play it.

See, your point fails because I never said all Monsters should be playable. I pointed out how these guys are not presented as a monster but as Monstrous Race and thus their mechanics are wonky and flawed for the premise. The thread title has "Race" as a tag and other users (like Thomar_of_Uointer) assumed these guys were a base race.

Of the other example Fish people he gave as inspiration for Lake Folk, two don't breath air and that's not an issue because they're a sea based race. Lake Folk on the other hand are bound to landlocked bodies of water that don't always have a large channel connected to them. So, in order for these guys to have functioning societies in their native environs, they would need a way to get from lake to lake.


your argument is basically you don't like that he formatted it as a race instead of making it a level 1 warrior with a race block at the end like they did with orcs. But my question is why bother theirs no point.

Because then these aren't Monsters, they're a player race. Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds and Hobgoblins can only be argued as "Monster" instead of "Race" because they explicitly show up in one of the Bestiaries and had a stat block first. As you'll notice, none of the base races have an entry in any of the Bestiaries like they did in 3.X edition.

And that's before you even count the Advanced Race Guide, which basically laid the premise "All the stuff in here is meant for players to use, just decide on the power bracket you want and if you want to include them". And Orcs were one of the entries with their own Archetypes, Items, Feats, Spells and such.


also if the race is intended to be roughly equal to a human in power and advance by class level their no point in giving it racial hd or higher stats it already does everything it set out to do.

Excuse me?


Not evil doesn't mean nice.

Strawman much? No one said they were nice.

awa
2012-09-03, 10:55 AM
anything that creates spawn, low level incorporeal monsters, things with no limbs or ability to hold or use items of any kind. do i really need to look these up for you?

yes pathfinder lack la i just said that

again all your stuff about the advanced race guide is you complaining that you don't like the way he formatted it. Its not intended to be playable the creator said that you don't like that he formatted it like a race not a monster i get that but that doesn't change the fact that the creator himself has said these are not supposed to be pcs so the fact that they make a lousy pc is not a detriment to the race.

how they get to new bodies of water isn't my problem they have potent sorceress maybe they use magic. maybe they craft special land submarines full of water. maybe they don't live in oceans but are willing to use it to get to new bodies of water. maybe everything is connected by the under-dark but in the end not my problem the creator says this is where they live so that's where they live.

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-03, 11:14 AM
anything that creates spawn, low level incorporeal monsters, things with no limbs or ability to hold or use items of any kind. do i really need to look these up for you?

I reiterate: There are no creatures in Pathfinder not meant to be played by PCs. The rules on Monsters as PCs just advise a GM that they should keep the balance of the party in mind when allowing the use of certain monsters or when choosing to disallow the use of certain monsters.

Just because you don't think those monsters should be options for PCs doesn't mean mechanically they aren't.




again all your stuff about the advanced race guide is you complaining that you don't like the way he formatted it. Its not intended to be playable the creator said that

Once again, you're saying things that the creator didn't. His exact quote was:


The lake folk are mostly intended to be a monstrous race, rather than a PC race (similar to bugbears and orcs in most games), hence their lack of air-breathing.

That does not preclude them as an option for PCs. Monstrous Race =/= Monster.


you don't like that he formatted it like a race not a monster i get that but that doesn't change the fact that the creator himself has said these are not supposed to be pcs so the fact that they make a lousy pc is not a detriment to the race.

Once again, the title tag is "PF Race" and they are presented as a race, not as a monster. And I already pointed out where you're putting words in the creator's mouth above this quote.


how they get to new bodies of water isn't my problem they have potent sorceress maybe they use magic. maybe they craft special land submarines full of water. maybe they don't live in oceans but are willing to use it to get to new bodies of water. maybe everything is connected by the under-dark but in the end not my problem the creator says this is where they live so that's where they live.

Yes, and? It isn't your homebrew so you're correct in it not being your place to explain an inconsistency as such exists in the mechanics. One that should be expanded upon or rectified in either mechanics or fluff by the creator.





Edit:

This is beginning to go off-topic, so I'm going to cease this line of discussion on my side. I'll only be further replying to the creator of this 'brew in relation to my inputs.

LordErebus12
2012-09-03, 12:43 PM
by your logic no creature should ever not be able to breath air becuase then it would be hard for a pc to play it.


Agreed, but not for your reasoning, since 95% of the Cosmology in Pathfinder is non-water environments, yes.

Playable races (like this is set up as) are all Air breathers and can survive in most climates without suffocating. Meaning it can go anywhere, like the planes (excluding the elemental plane of water) or even just going into the dwarven city for some R&R.

I believe if he wants it as a Playable Race, then it needs to be able to breathe, that way its not sub-standard to every other like-race that has come before it in pathfinder. Im saying that in my opinion the OP should view it from the player's side.

A race that cant breathe without a body of water is GARBAGE in any terrain other than an Aquatic one at low levels. Meaning there is no real point, in my opinion, to have it set up to be a no HD, no CR, "monstrous" race if its just another "sahuagin" type race.

You will never see one just walking around, no wandering monks or questing spellcasters, just the occasional surface raid (not at all an evil thing, just a way to keep a larger population around longer before its supplies dwindle too low).

That being said, i dont hate it or anything. just feel it needs minor reworking. think about it... Yeah, my version can breathe air and water but they prefer water. yes they can go far from the pond and even break away from its watery grip (in cases of exiled PC's, a large demographic). Imagine traveling that great ocean that is the Dark Tapestry, finding new worlds to explore while this version is left to rot in a pond.

LordErebus12
2012-09-03, 01:10 PM
I see many inconsistencies with the Universal rules and the Advanced Players Guide. most are minor typos but some even effect this race. Hold breath as granted by the universal rules is x6 while the ARG is x4.

Hold Breath (Ex) A lizardfolk can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Its listed in Lizardfolk that its x4... im guessing they reduced it. Typo on the PRD. im commenting on the PRD website about it...

Calmar
2012-09-03, 02:32 PM
Once again, you're saying things that the creator didn't. His exact quote was:

That does not preclude them as an option for PCs. Monstrous Race =/= Monster.

Once again, the title tag is "PF Race" and they are presented as a race, not as a monster. And I already pointed out where you're putting words in the creator's mouth above this quote.

I'm sorry, possibly I got the classification wrong. To me a monstrous race has always been a kind of monster like a bugbear, mind flayer, or kuo-toa that's listed in a Monster Manual, is intended to be a foe most of the time, but works technically similar to a player race (and could be played as such, but not necessarily so) - as opposed to a proper monster like a bulette, a basilisk, or a cornugon that's mostly fixed and has rather limited advancement options. :smalleek:

Indeed, the lake folk is not intended to be a player race in the first place.

Again, sorry for the confusion. :smallfrown:


Of the other example Fish people he gave as inspiration for Lake Folk, two don't breath air and that's not an issue because they're a sea based race. Lake Folk on the other hand are bound to landlocked bodies of water that don't always have a large channel connected to them. So, in order for these guys to have functioning societies in their native environs, they would need a way to get from lake to lake.

I guess their populations would be not too huge. Also, fantasy realms tend to be riddled with all kinds of subterranean passages. Maybe they just use magic to support themselves; that's no overly clever sollution, but elves are allowed this excuse too, aren't they? :smalltongue:

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-03, 04:06 PM
I'm sorry, possibly I got the classification wrong. To me a monstrous race has always been a kind of monster like a bugbear, mind flayer, or kuo-toa that's listed in a Monster Manual, is intended to be a foe most of the time, but works technically similar to a player race (and could be played as such, but not necessarily so) - as opposed to a proper monster like a bulette, a basilisk, or a cornugon that's mostly fixed and has rather limited advancement options. :smalleek:

Well, that's where the design mindsets between DnD and Pathfinder diverged. Pathfinder was far more open minded towards the guys and girls who sat down and looked at the game thinking, "Minotaurs? Man, they sound so cool! I'd love to play one...who's a bounty hunter!". So while things have a stat block in the Bestiary, they're still fully playable with GM supervision just as viably as a base race/class combination.

So in Pathfinder, you can play a bulette, a basilisk, or a cornugon just as easily as a bugbear, phrenic scourge or a deep one.

Then, a few months ago they released a source book called Advanced Race Guide, which on top of other things laid down rules on building your own races. They split the point brackets between Standard, Advanced and Monstrous: The first being base races, the second being things like Drow, Aasimar, and Deep Gnomes, and the third being Ogres, Gargoyles, and Driders (To give you an idea, Orcs, Gnolls and Lizardfolks got priced in Standard). Mind you, these are mostly toned down versions of the actual monsters for the Monstrous tier.


Indeed, the lake folk is not intended to be a player race in the first place.

Again, sorry for the confusion. :smallfrown:

Then I suggest restatting them as monsters. You'll need to add RHD and all, but it means they'll only see play under the Monsters as PCs rules instead of as a base race like how they are now.




I guess their populations would be not too huge. Also, fantasy realms tend to be riddled with all kinds of subterranean passages. Maybe they just use magic to support themselves; that's no overly clever sollution, but elves are allowed this excuse too, aren't they? :smalltongue:

Oh, nothing wrong with that; I'm just pointing out that you didn't mention that in the fluff if you meant for it to be that way.

LordErebus12
2012-09-03, 04:28 PM
Then I suggest restatting them as monsters. You'll need to add RHD and all, but it means they'll only see play under the Monsters as PCs rules instead of as a base race like how they are now.


agreed, wholeheartedly

awa
2012-09-04, 02:03 PM
what dont you get about this a race of monsters about as tough as a human they dont need racial hit dice unless they are supposed to be tougher then a human.

and it's possible to play a monster if the dm lets and you are intended to play a monster are very diffrent.

if playing any kind of monster was perfectly fine then why would these need to be modified to be more playable. your buhlete has no hands and wont fit in most buildings thats make it fairly hard to play.

this has been rehashed to death so last post from me
the race is fine it dosent need racial hit dice monsters are allowed to use class levels as well. The monsters dont need to be able to breath air.