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ThiagoMartell
2012-09-04, 04:57 AM
So I've recently watched Hunger Games and there is something that just bugs me.
The society seems messed up but functional, until they reveal the guys in the organizational comittee can create stuff out of the blue.
Now, can someone explain me why they need the people in the far away districts to live in misery working on tough jobs when they could simply, ya know, magically create that stuff? :smallconfused:

Anecronwashere
2012-09-04, 05:00 AM
They can't?
They have Awesome Stealth and Guidance Systems as well as what is Almost a Post-Scarcity civilization but they cant make Matter.

They rely on Science (though maybe not explained science), not Magic involved too

Parra
2012-09-04, 05:05 AM
Yea that kinda bugged me about the movie too.
If they have the capacity to instantaneously create mutant killer dogs in the blink of an eye, they also have the ability to create whatever else they might need.

Another thing that bothered me was during the selection process that we see in district 12 is when all the children of the selection age are gathered together there is maybe 1-200 of them. It just seems a very very small amount for an entire district. It felt more like a village.

Mauve Shirt
2012-09-04, 05:06 AM
I wondered that myself. In the book I'm pretty sure they had those crazy dogs set up beforehand, and those fire traps were always in place.

And Parra, also in the book, because of the mine explosions and danger district 12 is the smallest district.

SlyJohnny
2012-09-04, 05:11 AM
They're definitely not post-scarcity.

Most of the future-tech stuff they have seems to be military hand-me-downs; stealth, guidance, optics, sensors, forcefields, genetic engineering (muttations)... the movie doesn't make a big thing about it, but those hunting dogs they released at the end are actually partially made out of the dead tributes, or at least have their eyes. The tracker-jacks and jabberjays/mockingjays were also gene-engineered weapons made during the uprising, but the jabberjays kind of backfired and were more advantageous to the rebels, so the fact they bred with mockingjays instead of dying out pisses the Capitol off no end.

They still need the outlying districts for food and textiles and mining, they just use their inherited pre-apocalypse military tech to keep them in line.

Anecronwashere
2012-09-04, 05:19 AM
Almost.
Ive only read the 1st book and seen the movie but it seems like the Capitol do nothing.
The Hunger Games is a yearly Stave-Off-Boredom exercise.
They have any meal at the press of a button and not enough important jobs to keep all of them busy all the time.

Parra
2012-09-04, 05:20 AM
And Parra, also in the book, because of the mine explosions and danger district 12 is the smallest district.

I thought it might have just been a visual thing for the movies.

Even then district 12 would have to be very small geographically, and maybe only a mine or 2 (in walking distance from the town). It would have made more sense if there were multiple mines and multiple towns amounting to a larger, if more widely spread, population.

It just seemed so out of place when you see crowds, 10's of thousands strong in the capital district.

ThiagoMartell
2012-09-04, 05:53 AM
They can't?
They have Awesome Stealth and Guidance Systems as well as what is Almost a Post-Scarcity civilization but they cant make Matter.
They sure can in the book. They created the hunting dogs out of thin air.


They rely on Science (though maybe not explained science), not Magic involved too
Magic is nothing but unexplained science.


Yea that kinda bugged me about the movie too.
If they have the capacity to instantaneously create mutant killer dogs in the blink of an eye, they also have the ability to create whatever else they might need.
Yeah, it simply does not make sense.


I wondered that myself. In the book I'm pretty sure they had those crazy dogs set up beforehand, and those fire traps were always in place.
Oh, that is a lot more reasonable. Looks like an adaptation issue.

Xondoure
2012-09-04, 05:59 AM
Yeah the dogs were released into the arena, not conjured.

ThiagoMartell
2012-09-04, 06:12 AM
Yeah the dogs were released into the arena, not conjured.

Not in the movie, they weren't :smalltongue:

MLai
2012-09-04, 09:58 AM
Do not use fridge logic on Hunger Games the books or the movie. Both the books and the movie have unsustainable logic holes in the world setting to anyone with practical knowledge on how a world functions; we're not talking about quality or well-researched literature here. Remember these are mediocre novels aimed at young readers. And it rips off a Japanese manga, already dooming itself to be prone to plot holes.

A hilarious "Let's Read" blog criticizing the novel as the blogger reads it. It's very long but very funny IMO. As a hobby writer, I bookmarked it because it's like a glossary of creative writing faux pas. (http://farla.livejournal.com/274937.html)

snoopy13a
2012-09-04, 11:21 AM
Only about 5000 people live in District 12. The other districts are supposely much bigger. I guess their society doesn't really need that much coal.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-04, 11:30 AM
So I've recently watched Hunger Games and there is something that just bugs me.
The society seems messed up but functional, until they reveal the guys in the organizational comittee can create stuff out of the blue.
Now, can someone explain me why they need the people in the far away districts to live in misery working on tough jobs when they could simply, ya know, magically create that stuff? :smallconfused:

It was a weak point, yeah. I'm told the books are better on this, but the magical dogs thing did bother me.

I've bashed on the movie at a few points, tho.

Xondoure
2012-09-04, 01:10 PM
Not in the movie, they weren't :smalltongue:

Yes they were. Just becasue the command was some crazy holograph instead of a button push doesn't change the fact that the dogs weren't created magically. They were just released from under the arena, not the edges so as to take the contestants by surprise.

comicshorse
2012-09-04, 01:14 PM
I'd say that was debatable, my impression from watching the movie was that they were created

Fragenstein
2012-09-04, 01:17 PM
I'd say that was debatable, my impression from watching the movie was that they were created

They did seem to just form out of the ground, didn't they? But keep in mind that they still had the facial features of the fallen tributes. I'd say that, even in the movie, they weren't formed out of thin air but rather rebuilt and re-animated in a medical lab nearby as use for a finale.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-04, 01:39 PM
They did seem to just form out of the ground, didn't they? But keep in mind that they still had the facial features of the fallen tributes. I'd say that, even in the movie, they weren't formed out of thin air but rather rebuilt and re-animated in a medical lab nearby as use for a finale.

This requires assuming a lot of things that were never shown, and ignoring what was shown(formed out of the ground).

By that logic, Star Wars was about penguins.

Xondoure
2012-09-04, 01:47 PM
This requires assuming a lot of things that were never shown, and ignoring what was shown(formed out of the ground).

By that logic, Star Wars was about penguins.

Popped out of the ground is not the same thing. One would break the setting (not that it isn't already broken) the other is consistent. Claiming conjuration when there's a simpler solution is plot holes by ignorance of Occam's razor.

Jade Dragon
2012-09-04, 01:51 PM
This requires assuming a lot of things that were never shown, and ignoring what was shown(formed out of the ground).

By that logic, Star Wars was about penguins.

Alright then. I suppose in the movie it makes no sense. But in the book, it's specifically said to be mutated dead tributes.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-04, 01:57 PM
Popped out of the ground is not the same thing. One would break the setting (not that it isn't already broken) the other is consistent. Claiming conjuration when there's a simpler solution is plot holes by ignorance of Occam's razor.

What is shown trumps what is simpler.

What is shown is canon. What is not, is not. They show a hologram, they show the controller folks hitting a coupla buttons, and dogs are getting formed out of the ground. There is absolutely no mention of this being a preplanned thing, or of medical labs, nor is there any reasons to suspect such. It requires extensive explanation, too, because you don't see the corpses of the fallen tributes vanishing or anything.

So no...it's not a "simple solution" at all.

snoopy13a
2012-09-04, 02:10 PM
It was a weak point, yeah. I'm told the books are better on this, but the magical dogs thing did bother me.

I've bashed on the movie at a few points, tho.

The books are written from Katniss's first-person perspective. Since Katniss isn't familiar with technology, the author normally isn't required to explain why things work--because Katniss has no clue.

In the book, we don't see the dogs enter the arena--because Katniss doesn't see them enter. Addtionally, in the dog sequence, Katniss is freaked out because she has no idea if the dogs are simply mutant dogs made to look like the contestants or if the dogs are actually the other contestants. As readers, we have no idea either--although my guess is the former. Thus, the author doesn't have to explain dogs' capabilities or any of the pseudo-science behind their creation because that information simply isn't available to Katniss.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-04, 02:13 PM
The books are written from Katniss's first-person perspective. Since Katniss isn't familiar with technology, the author normally isn't required to explain why things work--because Katniss has no clue.

In the book, we don't see the dogs enter the arena--because Katniss doesn't see them enter. Addtionally, in the dog sequence, Katniss is freaked out because she has no idea if the dogs are simply mutant dogs made to look like the contestants or if the dogs are actually the other contestants. As readers, we have no idea either--although my guess is the former. Thus, the author doesn't have to explain dogs' capabilities or any of the pseudo-science behind their creation because that information simply isn't available to Katniss.

I'm just talking about the movie.

Inglenook
2012-09-04, 02:15 PM
I usually assume that movie canon follows book canon unless explicitly stated/shown otherwise. Thus, the mutts were genetic abominations created using the DNA of the dead tributes, and were released into the arena like any other obstacle. Not coalesced out of the mist or a Star Trek replicator or whatever.

Easy peasy!

snoopy13a
2012-09-04, 02:17 PM
I'm just talking about the movie.

I know; I was just offering a possible explanation why your friends found the book more plausible than the movie--namely through the author's choice of narration.

Xondoure
2012-09-04, 02:40 PM
What is shown trumps what is simpler.

What is shown is canon. What is not, is not. They show a hologram, they show the controller folks hitting a coupla buttons, and dogs are getting formed out of the ground. There is absolutely no mention of this being a preplanned thing, or of medical labs, nor is there any reasons to suspect such. It requires extensive explanation, too, because you don't see the corpses of the fallen tributes vanishing or anything.

So no...it's not a "simple solution" at all.

However when what is shown doesn't contradict what is simpler, go with the simpler solution.

ThiagoMartell
2012-09-04, 02:45 PM
However when what is shown doesn't contradict what is simpler, go with the simpler solution.

Except it kinda does. The dialogue haevily implies they are simply conjured.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-04, 02:46 PM
However when what is shown doesn't contradict what is simpler, go with the simpler solution.

What level of contradiction do you demand?

The chars turning to the screen and saying "Xondoure, we're conjuring them out of NOTHING, mwahahaha"?

Because we kind of see it happen.

Razanir
2012-09-04, 02:49 PM
Alright then. I suppose in the movie it makes no sense. But in the book, it's specifically said to be mutated dead tributes.

Sorry for the all-caps, but WHERE?! I've always heard people say that, but I've never gotten that impression from the books. Maybe the eyes, yeah, but I assumed they just picked eye and fur color based on the dead tributes.


Magic is nothing but unexplained science.

Clarke's Third Law.

snoopy13a
2012-09-04, 02:57 PM
Sorry for the all-caps, but WHERE?! I've always heard people say that, but I've never gotten that impression from the books. Maybe the eyes, yeah, but I assumed they just picked eye and fur color based on the dead tributes.



People are making conclusions based on Katniss's thoughts. The dogs may be some sort of frankenstein-dog using the dead tributes' bodies, or they might be dogs created to look like the dead tributes. For all we know, the gamemasters may have created dogs that look like Katniss, Cato, and Peetra and didn't release them because those three were still alive. We have no idea, only what Katniss thinks and fears might be the case.

Xondoure
2012-09-04, 03:26 PM
Except it kinda does. The dialogue haevily implies they are simply conjured.

At what point?

ThiagoMartell
2012-09-04, 08:26 PM
At what point?
At the point the dogs show up, in the scene where they are fiddling with holograms.

Xondoure
2012-09-04, 08:36 PM
At the point the dogs show up, in the scene where they are fiddling with holograms.

I don't recall them saying "conjure the dogs with our replicators." or anything of the sort.

Devonix
2012-09-04, 08:42 PM
all the scene is showing is them adding the dogs to the holographic imaging of the arena There's nothing to indicate that the holograms are coming to life and becoming actual dogs. Why would you think that?

ThiagoMartell
2012-09-04, 08:47 PM
I don't recall them saying "conjure the dogs with our replicators." or anything of the sort.
That would not be implying, that would be outright stating.
I watched the movie yesterday (or the day before yesterday? something like that) and the boss tells the guy fiddling with holograms something like "put them here... can you put any more? good"
The following scene the dogs just seem to pop out of the ground. If conjuration was not what they were trying to imply, they failed really hard in that scene.

Fjolnir
2012-09-04, 09:10 PM
You have to realize that the hunger games arenas are designed so the gamemasters can insert any of the items at their disposal anywhere on the map. So when the people are fiddling with the holograms and he's saying "can you get a few more there?" he's specifically telling his crew where to place these monsters, likely there are doors or stealth craft or some other entry into the arena that allows this placement without danger of escape(forcefields?) We don't see the entry in the book but it's fairly obvious by the way that the parachutes are dropped and fires start that there are controls in place for the dispersal of anything be it succor or horror

Parra
2012-09-05, 04:27 AM
That they controlled the boundaries of the arena was fairly obvious, though I think a big wall would have done the job better than a forest fire. When I was watching it happen I couldnt help but wonder what would happen if Katniss had returned to the boundary after the fire had burnt itself out.

Having never read the books and maybe it explains it better there, but on the big screen those mutant dogs very defiantly are shown appearing out of nowhere and exactly where the game controllers wanted right when they needed them to. Its never explained where they came from. Not even a throw away line to explain it. Nothing.
If they were hidden in underground kennel/boxes what harm would it have done to show a the lid flap open and the dogs run out? or have a techie sat something like "we have x dogs nearby, should we release them?"

As its shown, they meld out of the ground as if by magic/uber-tech in a seeming response to a technician creating a hologram of them

Killer Angel
2012-09-05, 05:28 AM
Do not use fridge logic on Hunger Games the books or the movie. Both the books and the movie have unsustainable logic holes in the world setting to anyone with practical knowledge on how a world functions; we're not talking about quality or well-researched literature here. Remember these are mediocre novels aimed at young readers. And it rips off a Japanese manga, already dooming itself to be prone to plot holes.

A hilarious "Let's Read" blog criticizing the novel as the blogger reads it. It's very long but very funny IMO. As a hobby writer, I bookmarked it because it's like a glossary of creative writing faux pas. (http://farla.livejournal.com/274937.html)


A very interesting reading. Tnx for sharing. :smallsmile:

Mauve Shirt
2012-09-05, 05:34 AM
Man, I'm in the middle of the second book and I can't put it down. Except I have to because I'm being blackmailed into reading Wheel of Time instead.
Even though the second book
seems like a contrived way to put the two back in the arena. I'm kind of annoyed. Also, I liked the Katniss/Peeta arena romance of the first book better than the Katniss/Gale romance. But Peeta does have the problem of being too willing to do what the Capital wants.

Friv
2012-09-05, 08:39 AM
Man, I'm in the middle of the second book and I can't put it down. Except I have to because I'm being blackmailed into reading Wheel of Time instead.
Even though the second book
seems like a contrived way to put the two back in the arena. I'm kind of annoyed. Also, I liked the Katniss/Peeta arena romance of the first book better than the Katniss/Gale romance. But Peeta does have the problem of being too willing to do what the Capital wants.

Absolutely, it's still a lot of fun. The writing is pretty compelling, and the characters work pretty well. It's just on the logic front that it falls down.

(Will have to check that link once I'm somewhere it isn't firewalled.)

snoopy13a
2012-09-05, 11:29 AM
Absolutely, it's still a lot of fun. The writing is pretty compelling, and the characters work pretty well. It's just on the logic front that it falls down.

(Will have to check that link once I'm somewhere it isn't firewalled.)

Most science fiction works fail the logic test--except perhaps the Asimov-type ones which were written with the mindl of passing the logic test. I actually think The Hunger Games does better than most--primarily because the first-person narration allows the author to avoid having to explain things. Plus, it isn't a traditional science fiction work; it is more of a dystopian fantasy along the lines of 1984 or A Clockwork Orange.

As a side note, the secret to winning The Hunger Games is to be:

dead sexy :smalltongue:

Because, if you are [see above spoiler] then patrons will buy you a trident and you'll kick butt

Unfortunately, sometimes it is better to lose the games than to win, because if you are a dead sexy champion then the capital will force you to prostitute yourself. If you refuse, they'll kill your half-mad girlfriend who hasn't been the same since she won the hunger games.

Why? Because the capital oppresses the people of the districts for oppression's sake.

Spoilers run to the last book.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-05, 11:40 AM
All the good distopian works have some sort of point to them, though. The horror comes about because you can see why such a thing would exist.

That's not really the case here.

BRC
2012-09-05, 11:58 AM
I havn't seen the movies. In the book my explanation was that they engineered a dog for each tribute ahead of time, and just released on the ones that resembled dead tributes into the arena.

As for the second book

It is basically just setting up for the, quite good in my opinion, third book.


As for the setting of the series itself

The Capitol DOES seem to have a lot of "Oppression for Oppression's Sake" going on. Though most of that seems to come from the failed uprising. It seems like a lot of the status quo was established by the victors in the old uprising, seeking to humiliate their opponents, with their behavior continued for generations by people with no real animosity towards the districts.


I wouldn't really call the Hunger Games "Horror", or even a Dystopian Fiction in the vein of 1984. It's just well-written fiction with no real agenda to it. It takes apart our cultural willingness to falsify and dehumanize people in the name of entertainment, but throughout the books the characters make use of that same dehumanization. It dosn't really criticize the idea, but it examines it closely and raises the stakes considerably.

snoopy13a
2012-09-05, 12:02 PM
All the good distopian works have some sort of point to them, though. The horror comes about because you can see why such a thing would exist.

That's not really the case here.

In The Hunger Games it is revenge for the civil war and cruelty for cruelty's sake. The capital runs the games to punish the people of the districts. There's probably a fear element as well since they've oppressed the districts for so long, they cannot ease up on the oppression. There's also a side element of entertaining the people of the capital. I can certainly see a society oppressing a conquered people as revenge and then continuing the oppression because the society doesn't percieve a way to end the oppression without a societal collapse.

Plus, there's the power aspect. Anyway, The Hunger Games is partly inspired by the Theseus myths--where the king of Crete forced the conquered Greek cities to send young people to be eaten in the labyrinth by the minotaur. So, the concept is really as old as history itself.

MLai
2012-09-05, 12:08 PM
Anyway, The Hunger Games is partly inspired by the Theseus myths--where the king of Crete forced the conquered Greek cities to send young people to be eaten in the labyrinth by the minotaur. So, the concept is really as old as history itself.[/spoiler]
Inspired by the Minotaur myth? I'm sorry but that's giving the author way too much credit. It's very obviously a ripoff of the manga Battle Royale. The author can deny it all she wants, but you can find it in any Barnes & Noble or Borders bookstore in the manga section.

snoopy13a
2012-09-05, 12:27 PM
Inspired by the Minotaur myth? I'm sorry but that's giving the author way too much credit. It's very obviously a ripoff of the manga Battle Royale. The author can deny it all she wants, but you can find it in any Barnes & Noble or Borders bookstore in the manga section.

Well, the author said it was inspired by the Minotaur myth:

Itís very much based on the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, which I read when I was eight years old. I was a huge fan of Greek and Roman mythology. As punishment for displeasing Crete, Athens periodically had to send seven youths and seven maidens to Crete, where they were thrown into the labyrinth and devoured by the Minotaur, which is a monster thatís half man and half bull. Even when I was a little kid, the story took my breath away, because it was so cruel, and Crete was so ruthless.

http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6590063.html

Not everyone reads manga. In fact, I'll bet that the majority of Americans interested in literature are not interested in manga at all. It is far more likely that her influences were Theseus (as she says) along with other possible works such as The Lottery, 1984, The Most Dangerous Game, and Lord of the Flies.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-05, 12:27 PM
Cruelty for Cruelty's sake makes a pretty crappy motivation.

Friv
2012-09-05, 12:27 PM
Inspired by the Minotaur myth? I'm sorry but that's giving the author way too much credit. It's very obviously a ripoff of the manga Battle Royale. The author can deny it all she wants, but you can find it in any Barnes & Noble or Borders bookstore in the manga section.

Only in the sense that Star Wars is a ripoff of Buck Rogers, or that Battlestar Galactica is a ripoff of Star Trek.

I mean, have you read both sources? Beyond "some kids have to kill each other" there are no similarities. The origins, methods, characters, plots, and pretty much everything else are different.

And given the incredibly wild commonality of "people have to kill each other in a fancy gladitorial arena", I am in fact willing to believe that more than one person could have the stunning extra idea "and they're young".

ThiagoMartell
2012-09-05, 12:37 PM
Not everyone reads manga. In fact, I'll bet that the majority of Americans interested in literature are not interested in manga at all. It is far more likely that her influences were Theseus (as she says) along with other possible works such as The Lottery, 1984, The Most Dangerous Game, and Lord of the Flies.

Battle Royale was a novel before it became a manga. Anyone, the fact that most americans interested in literature fall victim to media prejudice doesn't really matter, does it? :smallamused:
The way fans of Battle Royale keep calling Hunger Games a rip-off really irks me, though.

snoopy13a
2012-09-05, 12:43 PM
Cruelty for Cruelty's sake makes a pretty crappy motivation.

There's also a little of power for power's sake, which is the Inner Party's motivation in 1984.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-05, 12:47 PM
There's also a little of power for power's sake, which is the Inner Party's motivation in 1984.

1984 depicts them as embracing cruelty(among other things) as a path to power. It isn't a simple circular cruelty for cruelty's sake or power for power.

VanBuren
2012-09-05, 01:15 PM
Inspired by the Minotaur myth? I'm sorry but that's giving the author way too much credit. It's very obviously a ripoff of the manga Battle Royale. The author can deny it all she wants, but you can find it in any Barnes & Noble or Borders bookstore in the manga section.

You're right. That story idea almost certainly never existed before Japan invented it 16 years ago.

Mauve Shirt
2012-09-05, 03:31 PM
You're right. That story idea almost certainly never existed before Japan invented it 16 years ago.

[Extended] Sigging this. :smallbiggrin:

Chaosblade
2012-09-05, 03:41 PM
Uh... let's take a real life example. There's enough food to feed everyone on the planet, yet Africa has how many starving children?

Exactly. That's the point. It's not about being able to PROVIDE food, but about being GREEDY enough to keep it all for the rich/well-off. The entire series kinda revolves around that idea, IIRC. That's the real reason behind the 'Hunger' Games, a fact mentioned by the old dude that runs everything, again IIRC.

Chaosblade
2012-09-05, 03:48 PM
Inspired by the Minotaur myth? I'm sorry but that's giving the author way too much credit. It's very obviously a ripoff of the manga Battle Royale. The author can deny it all she wants, but you can find it in any Barnes & Noble or Borders bookstore in the manga section.

While you're there, take a look at any of the other numerous 'people killing each other for the amusement of others' stories out there. The first that comes to mind is Most Dangerous Game, but the concept, from a literary point-of-view, probably extends from AT LEAST Shakespearean times. I'm sure next you'll tell us that Justin Beiber doesn't write his own music, though.

Scowling Dragon
2012-09-05, 04:29 PM
Wow. That blog totaly deconstructs the book.

What at first seems like a feministic story satirizing pop culture is strangely sexist, with the idea that people must be BORN beautiful otherwise its just faking it therefore bad!

Its just such a low level of writing! But I read Eragon as a kid so the jokes on me. :smallsigh:

Xondoure
2012-09-05, 05:17 PM
Wow. That blog totaly deconstructs the book.

What at first seems like a feministic story satirizing pop culture is strangely sexist, with the idea that people must be BORN beautiful otherwise its just faking it therefore bad!

Its just such a low level of writing! But I read Eragon as a kid so the jokes on me. :smallsigh:

If that's in regard to the Capital's sense of style... I wouldn't call most of thaat beauty, more like disfiguration.

Scowling Dragon
2012-09-05, 05:37 PM
If that's in regard to the Capital's sense of style... I wouldn't call most of thaat beauty, more like disfiguration.

Thats because its heavy handed satire of that people that don't find themselves handsome or looking nice should just accept how ugly they look. Leave looking nice to the naturally born beautiful people. Otherwise you just look even uglier.

comicshorse
2012-09-05, 07:01 PM
Cruelty for Cruelty's sake makes a pretty crappy motivation.

But its cruelty for entertainments sake which has motivated many despotic and decadent empires throughout history

Lord Seth
2012-09-05, 07:01 PM
Uh... let's take a real life example. There's enough food to feed everyone on the planet, yet Africa has how many starving children?

Exactly. That's the point. It's not about being able to PROVIDE food, but about being GREEDY enough to keep it all for the rich/well-off.I think the causes of world hunger are a lot more complicated than just "oh it's because greedy people are keeping the food."

I'm going to also have to agree that the claims that it ripped off Battle Royale seem rather exaggerated.

Jade Dragon
2012-09-05, 09:49 PM
But its cruelty for entertainments sake which has motivated many despotic and decadent empires throughout history

What empires? All I can think of is Roman, which
A) only convicted PoWs and criminals to gladiator sentence
B) used it to keep the populace satisfied.


Both those points are missing from The Hunger Games.

comicshorse
2012-09-06, 06:20 AM
What empires? All I can think of is Roman, which
A) only convicted PoWs and criminals to gladiator sentence
B) used it to keep the populace satisfied.


Both those points are missing from The Hunger Games.

On the contrary
a) the districts rebelled, this is the sentence that was passed on them for their rebellion
b) it keeps the population entertained, the only population the Capitol really cares about, the Capitol

Devonix
2012-09-06, 06:33 AM
Thats because its heavy handed satire of that people that don't find themselves handsome or looking nice should just accept how ugly they look. Leave looking nice to the naturally born beautiful people. Otherwise you just look even uglier.

actually it's about people who placing so much attention on apperance that it's not even about looking nice or pretty, it's about being a trend setter. it's about attracting attention. being cool. It's got nothing to do with pretty.

Scowling Dragon
2012-09-06, 08:11 AM
On the contrary
a) the districts rebelled, this is the sentence that was passed on them for their rebellion

Which doesn't make any sense. All it is doing is pissing the districts off. If they took rebels then people would go "Oh ****. Id better not rebel. I don't want to suffer like those fools"

But they take everybody equally! So the people should be going "Im going to attack you! Watcha gonna do? Kill MORE of my children?"


b) it keeps the population entertained, the only population the Capitol really cares about, the Capitol

WHich the blog pointed out is the stupidest evil oppressor in the world.

How is it even in control if a separate district is in charge of energy and technology! If it had a monopoly on energy and tech then this makes sense. But no! If the districts rebelled, all they would have to do is block off the tunnels and deny the capitol stuff. Then they win. The capitol has: No energy, no food, nobody that knows how to survive in such a situation, an army that it has to lead through mountains.

Rebels have: Food, Energy, and skilled people.

Devonix
2012-09-06, 08:28 AM
Which doesn't make any sense. All it is doing is pissing the districts off. If they took rebels then people would go "Oh ****. Id better not rebel. I don't want to suffer like those fools"

But they take everybody equally! So the people should be going "Im going to attack you! Watcha gonna do? Kill MORE of my children?"



WHich the blog pointed out is the stupidest evil oppressor in the world.

How is it even in control if a separate district is in charge of energy and technology! If it had a monopoly on energy and tech then this makes sense. But no! If the districts rebelled, all they would have to do is block off the tunnels and deny the capitol stuff. Then they win. The capitol has: No energy, no food, nobody that knows how to survive in such a situation, an army that it has to lead through mountains.

Rebels have: Food, Energy, and skilled people.


For A its to try and beat the districs down. We own you We beat you in the past and this is to show how weak you are to us now, Our soldiers are in your cities, we have flying cars and high powered weapons and if we wanted to kill you we could just as easily as we do your children.

If you do try and fight us we will do to you what we did to district 13 and Nuke your asses into oblivion then give another district your jobs.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 08:31 AM
Which doesn't make any sense. All it is doing is pissing the districts off. If they took rebels then people would go "Oh ****. Id better not rebel. I don't want to suffer like those fools"

But they take everybody equally! So the people should be going "Im going to attack you! Watcha gonna do? Kill MORE of my children?"



WHich the blog pointed out is the stupidest evil oppressor in the world.

How is it even in control if a separate district is in charge of energy and technology! If it had a monopoly on energy and tech then this makes sense. But no! If the districts rebelled, all they would have to do is block off the tunnels and deny the capitol stuff. Then they win. The capitol has: No energy, no food, nobody that knows how to survive in such a situation, an army that it has to lead through mountains.

Rebels have: Food, Energy, and skilled people.

Hence why the power-generation district and the military district are two of the best-treated and most loyal districts, the ones where being a tribute is a trained volunteer status and the residents are almost as well-off as Capitol dwellers. They don't need to lead an army through mountains, they have uncontested control of the air. If the rebels try to cut off their supplies with what little resources they have, their handful of stolen guns and such, the hovercrafts come out and blast the offenders into shreds, or they just blockade the offending district and cut it off from all of its regular shipments from the other districts. Communication cross-district is deliberately inhibited to prevent the sort of coordination you're expecting

This of course doesn't factor in District 13.

Devonix
2012-09-06, 08:50 AM
Hence why the power-generation district and the military district are two of the best-treated and most loyal districts, the ones where being a tribute is a trained volunteer status and the residents are almost as well-off as Capitol dwellers. They don't need to lead an army through mountains, they have uncontested control of the air. If the rebels try to cut off their supplies with what little resources they have, their handful of stolen guns and such, the hovercrafts come out and blast the offenders into shreds, or they just blockade the offending district and cut it off from all of its regular shipments from the other districts. Communication cross-district is deliberately inhibited to prevent the sort of coordination you're expecting

This of course doesn't factor in District 13.


trying to avoid mentioning too much about 13 for those who haven't read the later books. but yeah without 13 the rebels have absolutly no chance at winning against a superior force in weapons, tech who have no qualms about nuking you.

BRC
2012-09-06, 09:00 AM
Not to mention communication. The districts are set up such that each cannot survive without the others, since each one has only a single industry to support it. District 12 has only a few backyard gardens and some poachers to get food, it must rely on shipments from district 10. Without District 13, the only communication between districts is handled through the Capitol. The more self sufficient agricultural districts are kept under heavy guard.

Scowling Dragon
2012-09-06, 09:11 AM
Hence why the power-generation district and the military district are two of the best-treated and most loyal districts,
Actually its the luxury and the military that are treated the best.

And again. Its not the capitol thats in control.

Its the actual districts. Mining stops? No energy. Food disctrict gone? No food, no luxury, no electronics,


If the rebels try to cut off their supplies with what little resources they have,

Its the DISTRICTS that have all the resources! It would take a while to establish communications between the districts without capitol control but once thats done, blamo.

Its not difficult! The Capitol is in a mountainous region, with only access to the other districts through tunnels. With huge consumption of energy and food daily!.

If the rebels properly communicate (The only difficulty) and destroy the tunnels in quick surgical strikes the capitol is left nothing!

Its not like they got the loyalty of the districts! The hunger games ENSURES to remind them how much of annoyance and weakness they are!

This reminds me SO much of Isaac Assimovs "The Foundation". As the capital of the space empire fell for exactly this reason! And at the very least it had decency to have tech on the planet itself! And not piss everybody off yearly.

And they CAN'T Nuke the other districts because they need the districts more then the districts need them!


We own you We beat you in the past and this is to show how weak you are to us now, Our soldiers are in your cities, we have flying cars and high powered weapons and if we wanted to kill you we could just as easily as we do your children.

That tactic doesn't work for the reasons I mentioned. The Districts have very little reason to be loyal to the Capitol especially since those bloody idiots have a separate district for tech!

Its just a matter of time until the districts realize

"Oh wait a minute. We have everything. They have NOTHING. Except for a few threats that will disappear the second the power is cut. They CAN'T kill us, because if they DO then the loose the resources we give them!"

Tyndmyr
2012-09-06, 09:22 AM
Uh... let's take a real life example. There's enough food to feed everyone on the planet, yet Africa has how many starving children?

Exactly. That's the point. It's not about being able to PROVIDE food, but about being GREEDY enough to keep it all for the rich/well-off. The entire series kinda revolves around that idea, IIRC. That's the real reason behind the 'Hunger' Games, a fact mentioned by the old dude that runs everything, again IIRC.

Uh, but for your example to be true, food would literally have to be just growing on bushes next to african villages en masse and being entirely ignored for no reason.

It's less realism and more bad writing.


Wow. That blog totaly deconstructs the book.

What at first seems like a feministic story satirizing pop culture is strangely sexist, with the idea that people must be BORN beautiful otherwise its just faking it therefore bad!

Its just such a low level of writing! But I read Eragon as a kid so the jokes on me. :smallsigh:

I really don't know why everyone's praised the movie for having a strong female lead. Her powers are being pretty and men doing things for her. Woo. That's some independent woman stuff right there.


But its cruelty for entertainments sake which has motivated many despotic and decadent empires throughout history

For entertainment's sake WHY? You can't just yell "entertainment" and then be done. In the case of the romans, the classic example, you have people watching others/outsiders die. Basically every culture that did this did some variation on this. The criminal, the captive, etc. The people who you could tell yourself were entirely different from yourself. And the entertainment was generally as a distraction from other issues. Bread and circuses will keep people distracted from power, sure. This obviously does not apply in any way to the hunger games.

Reverent-One
2012-09-06, 09:23 AM
Actually its the luxury and the military that are treated the best.

And again. Its not the capitol thats in control.

Its the actual districts. Mining stops? No energy. Food disctrict gone? No food, no luxury, no electronics,

Correction, either of those stop and the Capitol lives off reserves while starving out the striking districts or sending in troops to break down resistence.


Its not difficult! The Capitol is in a mountainous region, with only access to the other districts through tunnels. With huge consumption of energy and food daily!.

:smallconfused: Yeah, you're flat out wrong about that. They're got aircraft, destroying the tunnels would hurt the districts more since they wouldn't be able to get other resources they need.


And they CAN'T Nuke the other districts because they need the districts more then the districts need them!


Also wrong about that. Just because they need the districts in the long run doesn't mean they can't wipe one out and then rebuild it.

comicshorse
2012-09-06, 09:24 AM
"Oh wait a minute. We have everything. They have NOTHING. Except for a few threats that will disappear the second the power is cut. They CAN'T kill us, because if they DO then the loose the resources we give them!"

No the Capitol has an army they have guns and high tech. The districts have bows and knives.


In the case of the romans, the classic example, you have people watching others/outsiders die. Basically every culture that did this did some variation on this. The criminal, the captive, etc. The people who you could tell yourself were entirely different from yourself. And the entertainment was generally as a distraction from other issues. Bread and circuses will keep people distracted from power, sure. This obviously does not apply in any way to the hunger game

But it does, the Districts are ( by the Capitol's view) traitors. They are the outsiders that attempted to destroy the hub of culture and civilization that is the Capitol. They are criminals and outsiders.

Fjolnir
2012-09-06, 09:31 AM
The idea is that the capitol keeps control of both travel and communications, and is a vastly technologically superior force, and while all the districts together could win, the capitol actually has a very tight grip on the first 11 districts and comes down hard on the 12th later. The 12 districts are spread out across North America with the capitol in the rockies and without the ability to travel outside your district or talk to anyone outside your district a rebellion is a very uphill battle.

MLai
2012-09-06, 09:34 AM
LOL this forum likes to argue about everything, doesn't it? And here we actually have ppl arguing over what I suppose is the literary worth of this novel series. Jesus.

Just accept that this novel series is not that good. And then say, "But I like it, it's mental popcorn. So screw off." That's a valid position to take. :smallwink:

Was gonna elaborate on the Battle Royale thing. But... nah. And yes Snoopy13, I've read every single one of those other stories you have mentioned. Though I'm not sure to which Shakespearean play THG is supposed to be linked to or inspired by. Maybe that one I haven't read.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-06, 09:36 AM
Correction, either of those stop and the Capitol lives off reserves while starving out the striking districts or sending in troops to break down resistence.

:smallconfused: Yeah, you're flat out wrong about that. They're got aircraft, destroying the tunnels would hurt the districts more since they wouldn't be able to get other resources they need.

Woo, then the distract has "only one kind of resources" each, while the capitol is producing none at all. Winner: Not the capitol.

Except there's an even greater flaw. They don't produce only one kind of product each. Remember Peeta or whatever his name was? Were did he work in the mining district? Ah, yes, the bakery. So, the segregation clearly isn't all that amazing.

Reverent-One
2012-09-06, 09:41 AM
Woo, then the distract has "only one kind of resources" each, while the capitol is producing none at all. Winner: Not the capitol.

Except the Capitol can live without the districts longer than the districts can live without Capitol assistence (except perhaps the food districts), and it doesn't even come to that since the Capitol can still go get resources since they have the aforementioned aircraft. So, winner: Not the districts.

MLai
2012-09-06, 09:43 AM
Except there's an even greater flaw. They don't produce only one kind of product each. Remember Peeta or whatever his name was? Were did he work in the mining district? Ah, yes, the bakery. So, the segregation clearly isn't all that amazing.
Yes, if the movie wanted to clearly show specialization and self-insufficiency of the districts, each district should have looked like a different industrial town. For example, the mining town would look like a modern mining town. Not a rural town with farm animals. In fact I'm not sure how the backwards district is supposed to be able to supply enough coal for a metropolis; I got the impression that it's mining tech is something out of the 1800s.

Perhaps the books wrote about Katniss' town more realistically?

Tyndmyr
2012-09-06, 09:47 AM
Yes, if the movie wanted to clearly show specialization and self-insufficiency of the districts, each district should have looked like a different industrial town. For example, the mining town would look like a modern mining town. Not a rural town with farm animals. In fact I'm not sure how the backwards district is supposed to be able to supply enough coal for a metropolis; I got the impression that it's mining tech is something out of the 1800s.

Perhaps the books wrote about Katniss' town more realistically?

Oh, look at the link on page 2. Sadly, the book was notably less realistic, and went further down the "random rural town" rabbit hole.

We just don't see this super-specialization at all.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 09:48 AM
Woo, then the distract has "only one kind of resources" each, while the capitol is producing none at all. Winner: Not the capitol.

Except there's an even greater flaw. They don't produce only one kind of product each. Remember Peeta or whatever his name was? Were did he work in the mining district? Ah, yes, the bakery. So, the segregation clearly isn't all that amazing.
[/QUOTE]

Produced bread, yes. Grew grain, no. That's again part of the separation and inter-dependency strategy...the Grain-growing district has no bakers, so while they can grow and mill wheat, they can't eat it.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-06, 09:50 AM
Produced bread, yes. Grew grain, no. That's again part of the separation and inter-dependency strategy...the Grain-growing district has no bakers, so while they can grow and mill wheat, they can't eat it.[/QUOTE]

You can theorize that, but it's again an informed trait...not something we're at all sure of. I mean, Katniss's family has a milk goat. That's pretty overtly food production happening in district. In fact, of the people we hear about in her town, the only miner I recall is her dead dad.

This super-specialization is simply not described at all.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 10:00 AM
Produced bread, yes. Grew grain, no. That's again part of the separation and inter-dependency strategy...the Grain-growing district has no bakers, so while they can grow and mill wheat, they can't eat it.

You can theorize that, but it's again an informed trait...not something we're at all sure of. I mean, Katniss's family has a milk goat. That's pretty overtly food production happening in district. In fact, of the people we hear about in her town, the only miner I recall is her dead dad.

This super-specialization is simply not described at all.[/QUOTE]

The only character explicitly named as a miner, because the faceless extras don't matter. No one has said the districts are 100% dependent on outside supplies, but they are dependent on them - if they were cut off entirely, they could theoretically eke out a subsistence living...but they're not going to be doing any rebelling when their existence is devoted to not starving and mining enough coal/chopping wood to keep from freezing to death.

The super-specialization isn't described explicitly because it's a setting element - as said, it's not meant to be hard science fiction with all the details laid out. Presumably the rules being lax in District 12 is narrative-intentional, made that way to give a basis for the heroine and the rebellion starting there. In the farming district, the mentally disabled worker is shot dead on the spot for not turning in his night-vision goggles, and eating crops is grounds for public whipping, so the 12's residents are allowed to hunt while the guards look the other way isn't the standard. The textiles district is "an ugly urban place stinking of industrial fumes, the people housed in run down tenements, barely a blade of grass in sight" - not really the sort of place you'd expect to be agriculturally self-sufficient.


EDIT: Why is the system butchering our quotes of each other?

Tyndmyr
2012-09-06, 10:07 AM
The only character explicitly named as a miner, because the faceless extras don't matter. No one has said the districts are 100% dependent on outside supplies, but they are dependent on them - if they were cut off entirely, they could theoretically eke out a subsistence living...but they're not going to be doing any rebelling when their existence is devoted to not starving and mining enough coal/chopping wood to keep from freezing to death.

The super-specialization isn't described explicitly because it's a setting element - as said, it's not meant to be hard science fiction with all the details laid out. Presumably the rules being lax in District 12 is narrative-intentional, made that way to give a basis for the heroine and the rebellion starting there. In the farming district, the mentally disabled worker is shot dead on the spot for not turning in his night-vision goggles, and eating crops is grounds for public whipping, so the 12's residents are allowed to hunt while the guards look the other way isn't the standard. The textiles district is "an ugly urban place stinking of industrial fumes, the people housed in run down tenements, barely a blade of grass in sight" - not really the sort of place you'd expect to be agriculturally self-sufficient.

They don't have to do any real rebelling. If they simply revert to a subsistence lifestyle and ignore the capitol, the capitol loses. I don't know if all the districts are surrounded by forest the way district 12 is, but frankly, logging is not a hard trade to pick up. That's basic shelter and fuel. It's established that food exists in the woods(in strangely plentiful amounts even). So, any district bordering a forest is basically golden.


EDIT: Why is the system butchering our quotes of each other?

Not a clue. Looked over it fairly carefully this time, it *should* be sorted. Odd.

Scowling Dragon
2012-09-06, 10:09 AM
If I where to be the Capitol, I would be a combination of Both the Empire and the Foundation from "Foundation"

A: The capitol has monopoly on electronics, Weapons, and Energy. This way they will always have an advantage against every other district (No District 13)

B: Each district is given high tech for their stuff

C: High levels of Propaganda. Each district is disconnected from the others. And each district is told that they are the favored one. Of how awesome it is and how every other district sucks. The Capitol is also shown as a sort of religious area. So that everybody is told to believe that the capitol is god or such and any problems with the district are blamed on rebels (For the Glory of the Capitol!).

D: The hunger games are still lethal, but optional. And done by adults. The point is to instill more anger of every district against each other. Because there won't be live televising of each thing. Each district is fed an altered version of actual events that makes the opposing districts look like cheaters (So even if your district looses, it was all because those nasty other districts are a bunch of cheaters. So sign up next year so that you can show that other district a thing or two! For the Glory of the capitol!).

E: The winner gets to stay in the capitol. So its more motivation to sign up for the hunger games (Or call them the Glory games to see who is worthy of joining the godlike Capitol).

F: HEAVY Segregation. And trying out other stuff is discouraged as your trying to be more like "Those evil other districts"

Reverent-One
2012-09-06, 10:12 AM
They don't have to do any real rebelling. If they simply revert to a subsistence lifestyle and ignore the capitol, the capitol loses. I don't know if all the districts are surrounded by forest the way district 12 is, but frankly, logging is not a hard trade to pick up. That's basic shelter and fuel. It's established that food exists in the woods(in strangely plentiful amounts even). So, any district bordering a forest is basically golden.


And how do you figure they're going to able to "ignore the capitol" in the first place? You think the Capitol would just go "Well, they don't want to work for us anymore, I guess we'll respect that decision"? What happens when the Capitol replaces the more lienent guard captain with one that actually leaves the electric fence on, preventing them from getting any use out of the forest?

Tyndmyr
2012-09-06, 10:16 AM
And how do you figure they're going to able to "ignore the capitol" in the first place? You think the Capitol would just go "Well, they don't want to work for us anymore, I guess we'll respect that decision"? What happens when the Capitol replaces the more lienent guard captain with one that actually leaves the electric fence on, preventing them from getting any use out of the forest?

According to the books, the guards are also short on meat. So, it's not like they can just crack down on everyone. The capitol and it's guards are directly dependent on the districts. The instant the supply stops from even a single district, there's a severe problem for it.

It's really the worst despotic scheme ever. Yes, I'll put my seat of power where I have absolutely nothing of value, then, I'll piss off everyone for no good reason. Even better, I'll do it in such a way that every child is motivated to train for lethal combat. Surely, that could never go awry. Then, once they're all trained, I'll kill THEIR kids. Nothing bad could EVER come of that. Now, I'm off to go smell of blood and laugh manically.

Reverent-One
2012-09-06, 10:22 AM
According to the books, the guards are also short on meat. So, it's not like they can just crack down on everyone. The capitol and it's guards are directly dependent on the districts. The instant the supply stops from even a single district, there's a severe problem for it.


The guards that trade with Katniss and Gale do so not because they're starve otherwise, but for luxury. They very well could crack down on the entire district. You're also exaggerating the difficulties the Capitol faces by losing supplies from a district, they aren't instantly in any danger, meanwhile the same cannot be said for the district.

mangosta71
2012-09-06, 10:26 AM
There's a difference between "they don't have any/enough" and "they don't have as much as they want". Yes, the Peacekeepers would still have some meat if they shut Kat and Gale down, but they want more than they're allotted so they look the other way.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 10:34 AM
That, and why would 'leave them alone' be an option when they have crack military troops and airships? Note that there are three different food-supplying districts - meat, crops, and fish - so to actually threaten the Capitol's food supply (as opposed to simply their variety of meals), all three would need to rebel together. If one locks itself up, they're stuck on feeding themselves until the Capitol gets around to enforcing order...and if it's a non-food-producer like the industrial nothing-but-grimy-factories, it's unfeasible for them to have the infrastructure to go to subsistence farming before they all starve. District 12 is probably the only district that could actually survive on its own (food and fuel),

which is why it got firebombed into oblivion, instead of just being occupied by Capitol troops.



EDIT: Incidentally, I was wrong about the grain district, it has a 'signature bread loaf', so it must have bakers. I'll still bet they aren't allowed to eat their own loaves, though, or even allowed to bake enough to feed themselves.

Teron
2012-09-06, 11:21 AM
EDIT: Incidentally, I was wrong about the grain district, it has a 'signature bread loaf', so it must have bakers. I'll still bet they aren't allowed to eat their own loaves, though, or even allowed to bake enough to feed themselves.
Why wouldn't they be? They have to eat something. If I recall correctly, though, they have to buy their grain back from the Capitol.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 11:33 AM
Why wouldn't they be? They have to eat something. If I recall correctly, though, they have to buy their grain back from the Capitol.

I'd expect they would be fed on meat and fish from the other farming districts, and bread made in other districts. It's no guarantee, but would make sense if the policy was hard-coded as 'anything made/grown here, you can't have', expanding off the policy of being whipped for stealing fruit - easier to outright ban something than figure out if it was legally gained or not, when there are other alternatives. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone caught eating beef in District 10 was harshly punished, though since District 4 is a Career district, I'll bet they get to eat from their catches.

nyarlathotep
2012-09-06, 11:42 AM
Was gonna elaborate on the Battle Royale thing. But... nah. And yes Snoopy13, I've read every single one of those other stories you have mentioned. Though I'm not sure to which Shakespearean play THG is supposed to be linked to or inspired by. Maybe that one I haven't read.

Well first off you claimed that the manga was the original, when it is really a rather shallow adaptation of the movie, which was a rather good adaptation of the novel. It also doesn't help that Battle Royale is essentially "What if we took the Lord of the Flies and combined it with the Long Walk" the same way the Hunger Games is essentially "What if we took Battle Royale and combined it with 1984".

VanBuren
2012-09-06, 12:13 PM
LOL this forum likes to argue about everything, doesn't it? And here we actually have ppl arguing over what I suppose is the literary worth of this novel series. Jesus.

Just accept that this novel series is not that good. And then say, "But I like it, it's mental popcorn. So screw off." That's a valid position to take. :smallwink:

Was gonna elaborate on the Battle Royale thing. But... nah. And yes Snoopy13, I've read every single one of those other stories you have mentioned. Though I'm not sure to which Shakespearean play THG is supposed to be linked to or inspired by. Maybe that one I haven't read.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when people say that I have a tendency to cling even harder to my position. :smallwink:

snoopy13a
2012-09-06, 12:43 PM
I'd expect they would be fed on meat and fish from the other farming districts, and bread made in other districts. It's no guarantee, but would make sense if the policy was hard-coded as 'anything made/grown here, you can't have', expanding off the policy of being whipped for stealing fruit - easier to outright ban something than figure out if it was legally gained or not, when there are other alternatives. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone caught eating beef in District 10 was harshly punished, though since District 4 is a Career district, I'll bet they get to eat from their catches.

District 4 is weird though:

Based on how the capital treats Finnick--blackmailing him into prostitution--I don't think District 4 is too fond of the capital and vice-versa. Plus, I believe they are one of the districts that revolts first--I borrowed the books when I read them so I can't verify. District 2, on the other hand, are the capital's toadies. I'm not sure about District 1, they aren't mentioned much.

As for District 12:

I think a reason why they were firebombed was because coal isn't extremely useful for the capital. The capital, after all, has nuclear power. My guess is that the coal is primarily exported to the other raw material districts (e.g., District 7, timber; District 11, agriculture; District 10, livestock) as a heating source. The more industrialized ones--such as District 3 and District 2--may, like the capital, use nuclear power.

So, if the districts are revolting, temporarily cutting off the coal supply doesn't hurt the capital. And if the capital wins, they can easily repopulate District 12 while also using the firebombing as a warning against revolt.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-06, 12:48 PM
The guards that trade with Katniss and Gale do so not because they're starve otherwise, but for luxury. They very well could crack down on the entire district. You're also exaggerating the difficulties the Capitol faces by losing supplies from a district, they aren't instantly in any danger, meanwhile the same cannot be said for the district.

If you're rationing the food given to your soldiers, you're already in trouble.

comicshorse
2012-09-06, 12:52 PM
If you're rationing the food given to your soldiers, you're already in trouble.

More likely then as now army rations leave a lot to be desired in the taste departement and fresh cooked meat will be welcome

Tyndmyr
2012-09-06, 12:59 PM
More likely then as now army rations leave a lot to be desired in the taste departement and fresh cooked meat will be welcome

Military food currently isn't exceptionally bad. MREs are not fantastic, true, but military people don't as a matter of course live off MREs. You certainly wouldn't use such a ridiculous solution for an ongoing occupation...you'd use permanent food kitchens and the like.

Plus, yknow, it described the Peacekeepers as "as hungry for fresh meat as anybody is". This is hunger, not delicacy.

BRC
2012-09-06, 12:59 PM
If you're rationing the food given to your soldiers, you're already in trouble.
I have yet to hear about a modern army that dosn't give it's soldiers "Rations". "Rations" in an army have a different meaning that "rations" for a civilian population (one implies providing food for the troops, the other implies restricting access). If the soldiers are not receiving rations then they are eating from the same bland food supply as the rest of the population, and will want to spice it up with some game bought from the friendly neighborhood poachers. If the soldiers ARE receiving special rations, then they probably STILL want a little something extra.

It dosn't help that Gale and Katniss's hunting is a victimless crime. Nobody owns the animals they are hunting, unless you count the Capitol, which isn't going to use them. It's banned because they want to keep people within the district borders, but Gale and Katniss are not going anywhere. It's exactly the type of victimless crime that gets ignored in countless societies. Their hunting improves local morale and dosn't pose a threat to anybody. Only a strict Peacekeeper who believes in Enforcement for Enforcement's sake would have any motivation to stop them.

Reverent-One
2012-09-06, 01:01 PM
Military food currently isn't exceptionally bad. MREs are not fantastic, true, but military people don't as a matter of course live off MREs. You certainly wouldn't use such a ridiculous solution for an ongoing occupation...you'd use permanent food kitchens and the like.

Plus, yknow, it described the Peacekeepers as "as hungry for fresh meat as anybody is". This is hunger, not delicacy.

The line works as well for meaning not literally hungry, but desiring it as much as anybody for the quality reasons already mentioned.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-06, 01:04 PM
The line works as well for meaning not literally hungry, but desiring it as much as anybody for the quality reasons already mentioned.

Except that everyone else, we're told, is literally starving. Them being just as hungry does not translate to "not actually hungry".

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 01:07 PM
I think you're taking poetic license a bit too far. The Peacekeepers at District 12 are never described as underfed or weak - 'as hungry for meat as anyone else' only implies they don't get fresh meat as part of their allotted meals - nor does anyone else in the district, so it maintains the literal meaning without somehow drawing the conclusion that the guards need that meat to stay healthy.

Besides, it's not true that everyone else is starving. They're for the most part perpetually weak and underfed, but that's only malnourished, not outright starvation. Winter is the only time they legitimately starve.

Reverent-One
2012-09-06, 01:08 PM
Except that everyone else, we're told, is literally starving. Them being just as hungry does not translate to "not actually hungry".

It does if Katniss is using "hunger" similarly to "desire", they can want it as much for different reasons. We should remember that we're not dealing with an objective third person viewpoint, but a first person one. As long as the guards are as willing to trade with her as the other people, it's an accurate statement.

EDIT: And Ninja'd by the Glyphstone.

Dusk Eclipse
2012-09-06, 01:10 PM
.... I don't know if I should thank or curse you for making me want to read the books (I watched the movie and thought it was entertaining; but nothing stellar); but it seems that there is much more subtext and implications in the books so I feel the need to read them.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 01:12 PM
.... I don't know if I should thank or curse you for making me want to read the books (I watched the movie and thought it was entertaining; but nothing stellar); but it seems that there is much more subtext and implications in the books so I feel the need to read them.

They're nothing stellar, but I don't think you'll want a refund on life after reading them. "Lord of the Flies meet 1984" is a pretty good summary of the overall ambience.

TheEmerged
2012-09-06, 01:12 PM
I really don't know why everyone's praised the movie for having a strong female lead. Her powers are being pretty and men doing things for her. Woo. That's some independent woman stuff right there.

Keep in mind who the contemporary competition is - Bella from Twilight, for example.

Besides, I seem to recall her hunting for food, getting into a knife fight with someone else, and threatening to knife an older/large man just because he's not taking her seriously. Maybe she doesn't deserve the all the credit she gets, but she's hardly limited to being pretty.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 01:15 PM
Keep in mind who the contemporary competition is - Bella from Twilight, for example.

Besides, I seem to recall her hunting for food, getting into a knife fight with someone else, and threatening to knife an older/large man just because he's not taking her seriously. Maybe she doesn't deserve the all the credit she gets, but she's hardly limited to being pretty.

Plus the element, if you can call it that, of playing to the cameras. Granted, it doesn't exactly scream independent woman to be feigning mourning and concern for your injured man, who you need to make your life complete, but the implied cynicism of the manipulation has resonance with modern-day reality TV.

Reverent-One
2012-09-06, 01:15 PM
.... I don't know if I should thank or curse you for making me want to read the books (I watched the movie and thought it was entertaining; but nothing stellar); but it seems that there is much more subtext and implications in the books so I feel the need to read them.

A lot of it comes from the later two books I think. Since it's all first person from Katniss's perspective, we don't get as deep a look into the system until she actually goes and sees more of it.

Dusk Eclipse
2012-09-06, 01:18 PM
They're nothing stellar, but I don't think you'll want a refund on life after reading them. "Lord of the Flies meet 1984" is a pretty good summary of the overall ambience.

Meh I managed to read the first twilight book and didn't want that refund (thought I did want a money return on the book) so I think I'll manage, if nothing else I can kill some slow weekends.

Lord Seth
2012-09-06, 04:50 PM
Meh I managed to read the first twilight book and didn't want that refund (thought I did want a money return on the book) so I think I'll manage, if nothing else I can kill some slow weekends.Enh, Twilight's honestly not that bad. It's incredibly stupid, but I can hardly call it bad. The only real difference between it and every other dumb romance novel is that it's the one that happened to get popular.

To be quite honest, I find the hatedom far more annoying than Twilight itself.

Dusk Eclipse
2012-09-06, 04:58 PM
I actually can't stand Meyer's writing style... it feels bland (not that I am a literature erudite or anything like that), I just don't like it.

MLai
2012-09-07, 12:36 AM
I'm sure THG isn't terribad reading that you can't get beyond Vol. 1... but why would you read THG if you have a finite amount of reading time and there's tons of other worthwhile sci-fi/fantasy novels out there? For example, have you read everything here:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2011/12/07/reddit-ranks-the-best-scifi-novels-ever/
That's just how I look at it.


Well first off you claimed that the manga was the original, when it is really a rather shallow adaptation of the movie, which was a rather good adaptation of the novel. It also doesn't help that Battle Royale is essentially "What if we took the Lord of the Flies and combined it with the Long Walk" the same way the Hunger Games is essentially "What if we took Battle Royale and combined it with 1984".
I agree with your last sentence 100%. To explain...
I don't recall saying BR to be the original of anything. In fact my statement was in reply to "THG is inspired by the Theseus myth" which automatically shows that I acknowledge the Theseus myth to be the original or close to the original.
I was simply saying that it's giving the author too much credit to say that she's inspired by classic lit... rather than something much more modern, widely available and populist, and suspiciously closer to what she wrote.
You can bash on BR all you want; I won't disagree with you. I wasn't mentioning BR as a compliment to it, LOL.

Xondoure
2012-09-07, 02:13 AM
On the other hand; classic lit is classic for a reason, and I'd expect any person who spends a fair amount of their time dwelling on english literature to be at least passingly familiar with such myths as Theseus and the Minotaur, the Trials of Heracles, Perceus and Andromeda, Jason and the Argonauts, the Iliad, and of course the Odyssey. Whereas I wouldn't necessarily expect them to be familiar with Battle Royale.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-07, 05:07 AM
I dunno about 'populist' - until THG came out, I don't know anyone who'd ever heard of Battle Royale outside the niche market of anime/manga fans. Though I think I'm confusing populist with popular again.

Mauve Shirt
2012-09-07, 05:24 AM
I'm sure THG isn't terribad reading that you can't get beyond Vol. 1... but why would you read THG if you have a finite amount of reading time and there's tons of other worthwhile sci-fi/fantasy novels out there? For example, have you read everything here:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2011/12/07/reddit-ranks-the-best-scifi-novels-ever/
That's just how I look at it.


I hate hate HATE this. "Why would you read a book when my tastes differ and there are books that I find better than that book?"
I like my books to have qualities that most science fiction and high fantasy DON'T have. Like incorporating the worldbuilding into the story instead of spending pages explaining why things are this way. Give the characters a reason to explain it. Or a worse sin of SciFi and High Fantasy, NOT giving me characters I care about. I don't care about what happens to the world, it's not a world that exists, so I have to care about the people that live in it.

MLai
2012-09-07, 05:49 AM
@ Xondoure:
Well that goes back to the amount of respect I have for the said author. If I think she's a great writer, I'd readily expect her to be familiar with classic lit and why they're classic. If I think she writes dredge that's popular with young immature-minded readers, my opinion is that she gets her inspirations from literature of the lower common denominator.
It's not as if I can prove she ripped off BR; that's not my point.

@ Glyphstone:
Yes, and that fulfills the criteria for successful plagiarism: It's readily available at any bookstore's manga section so she can easily have skimmed through them, but it's still niche enough that she can deny ever having seen them and people will take her word for it.

@ Mauve:
(1) I wasn't even talking to you. Therefore, "Why would you read a book when my tastes differ and there are books that I find better than that book?" doesn't apply here. Dusk Eclipse was implying he was looking for some nonspecific page-turner to read on a slow weekend and that he has a broad palate for fiction, without specifying any genre.
(2) You're acting as if I wrote that list, and that you know my reading tastes, and that somehow I don't care about any of your listed criteria. And yet, for someone who you think don't like THG's genre, I seem to have read all those preceding works that inspired it. I must really hate its genre, huh?

Mauve Shirt
2012-09-07, 06:01 AM
1) Dusk eclipse said "I want to read this book now" and you responded with "Why? This list says there are better books out there and I agree with it."
2) The books THG is loosely related to/based on are not necessarily the same genre. I certainly don't think Theseus has anything like the same flavor of THG.

MLai
2012-09-07, 06:17 AM
1) Dusk eclipse said "I want to read this book now" and you responded with "Why? This list says there are better books out there and I agree with it."
2) The books THG is loosely related to/based on are not necessarily the same genre. I certainly don't think Theseus has anything like the same flavor of THG.
(1) He said he saw the movie and found it ok but not spectacular "omg must read book nao." And then he says this thread intrigued him to read the book because it suggests the book is better than the movie and has deeper themes, more complicated narrative, and somesuch. (Paraphrased.) So I suggested that there are books out there that definitely have deeper themes, more complicated narrative, and somesuch.

(2) I meant more like The Lord of the Flies, The Most Dangerous Game, The Running Man (just threw this movie in there), etc.

Parra
2012-09-07, 06:36 AM
Ah the Running Man. Classic Jessie Ventura (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazUZz3K6IY).

......

......

continue with your discussion :smallamused:

The Glyphstone
2012-09-07, 06:47 AM
@ Glyphstone:
Yes, and that fulfills the criteria for successful plagiarism: It's readily available at any bookstore's manga section so she can easily have skimmed through them, but it's still niche enough that she can deny ever having seen them and people will take her word for it.


And yet 'could' does not mean 'did', but you're working from the base assumption that it was, not to mention that I doubt it was 'readily available' anywhere outside specialized manga stores until Hunger Games was published (the best thing to ever happen to Battle Royale, for all the free publicity). Parallel development works in literature as well as it does biology, and particularly when you're discussing two completely unconnected genres like Japanese Manga and American YA fiction, the concept of 'dystopian gladiator games to the death...WITH CHILDREN!" is not exactly hard to come up with. Looking at online summaries, I can totally see the arguments in favor of the connection - dystopian government looking to suppress rebellion, children fighting to the death, a cheesy forced romance between two protagonists arranged to get them both out alive...but I find it a lot more superficial than you're taking as a given.

MLai
2012-09-07, 06:49 AM
If the Capital had Captain Freedom commercials, kids would be throwing themselves at the recruiter lady in every district. :smallbiggrin:

@ Glyph:

It's not as if I can prove she ripped off BR; that's not my point.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-07, 06:51 AM
Not sure who Captain Freedom is, but okay.:smallsmile:

Oh, right, Running Man.

comicshorse
2012-09-07, 07:00 AM
I dunno about 'populist' - until THG came out, I don't know anyone who'd ever heard of Battle Royale outside the niche market of anime/manga fans. Though I think I'm confusing populist with popular again.

I wasn't, at the time, into anime/manga but had seen the movie. This seemed pretty well know but perhaps just among my circle

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-07, 08:18 AM
It's worth remembering that apparently hunger games was released in 2008.
The Battle Royal Film was released in 2000ish, and was a big enough deal to be released in 22 countries. It was reasonably well known at the time over here, I have no reason to believe the same wasn't true in america and it was apparently received pretty well by critics.

The manga in comparison is later, and I'd say probably a little more genuinely obscure, but the film was a pretty big thing.

Also, I'm hazy on this particular myth, but isn't the whole Theseus/Minotaur thing much more about just Theseus dealing with the minotaur, rather than a number of competing teams?

Friv
2012-09-07, 08:52 AM
Also, I'm hazy on this particular myth, but isn't the whole Theseus/Minotaur thing much more about just Theseus dealing with the minotaur, rather than a number of competing teams?

Yes and no.

The Theseus thing was about a bunch of kids being released into a deadly maze where a monster would kill them one by one. They weren't fighting each other, but the net result was meant to be everyone dead. It was done by a conquering nation to a conquered nation, to remind them that they were subservient forever.

Theseus volunteered for the duty in an attempt to kill the Minotaur and end the sacrifices of his fellows. He then got some help from the daughter of the ruler, killed the Minotaur, and saved his fellow tributes. (Or at least some of them. I'm a little hazy on that bit.)

There are certainly a lot of thematic similarities.

Xondoure
2012-09-07, 09:00 AM
@MLai: Well, to put it in my perspective: I've known about Theseus since I was seven. Therefore I'd be very surprised if a writer like Collins had not. Given that she herself lists it as part of her inspiration for the story... Yeah that seems like more than enough to be highly plausible.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-07, 09:01 AM
I wasn't, at the time, into anime/manga but had seen the movie. This seemed pretty well know but perhaps just among my circle


It's worth remembering that apparently hunger games was released in 2008.
The Battle Royal Film was released in 2000ish, and was a big enough deal to be released in 22 countries. It was reasonably well known at the time over here, I have no reason to believe the same wasn't true in america and it was apparently received pretty well by critics.

The manga in comparison is later, and I'd say probably a little more genuinely obscure, but the film was a pretty big thing.

Also, I'm hazy on this particular myth, but isn't the whole Theseus/Minotaur thing much more about just Theseus dealing with the minotaur, rather than a number of competing teams?

Maybe I'm just in the minority then. I'd never heard of BR until the whole hunger games controversy, but then if it came out in 2000, I was 12 and what is this.

mangosta71
2012-09-07, 09:29 AM
I never heard of Battle Royale until the movie adaptation of THG was released. So I don't see it as unreasonable that Collins hadn't, either. Especially since she doesn't seem to fit within BR's target demographic, whereas I kind of do.

Tyndmyr
2012-09-07, 12:40 PM
I dunno about 'populist' - until THG came out, I don't know anyone who'd ever heard of Battle Royale outside the niche market of anime/manga fans. Though I think I'm confusing populist with popular again.

I was aware of, but had not watched it. I'm not really much of an anime fan. I mean, it's not inherently anime/manga related except that it happens to be Japanese. It's not entirely mainstream, but it isn't unheard of, either. My roommate owns a copy of the movie. It's on netflix. For a foreign film, it's got decent notoriety. Could have been an inspiration, I suppose. I don't really know or care if it was an inspiration to Hunger Games...my objections to Hunger Games is based more on being outright bad than on being unoriginal.

I do agree that it is certainly more similar to Battle Royale than to greek mythology, though. In fact, I'd say that linking it to greek myth is a bit on the tenuous side.

nyarlathotep
2012-09-07, 12:47 PM
@ Glyphstone:
Yes, and that fulfills the criteria for successful plagiarism: It's readily available at any bookstore's manga section so she can easily have skimmed through them, but it's still niche enough that she can deny ever having seen them and people will take her word for it.


I sincerely doubt that THG is based off the BR manga simply because well the manga is very obscure compared to the relative popularity of the book and movie version of Battle Royale. Especially because the tone and message of THG is much much closer to the novel than the manga. In that the BR novel is primarily a critique of Japanese nationalism and misguided nostalgia. THG is a (relatively poorly executed) critique on American consumer and entertainment culture. They use similar enough set pieces but in both the set pieces are less important than the message each is trying to portray. This is what makes them literature instead of just pop entertainment; or to be less generous shows us that they are trying to be more than just pop entertainment.

Harping on the manga is sort of bad form because well it's pretty much just violence porn, unless the chapters I read were the absolute worst of the bunch. Is the brony movement plagiarizing the 2005 Z-grade horror movie Ponytrouble, because they're both about grown men getting too obsessed with little plastic ponies?

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-07, 01:14 PM
Maybe I'm just in the minority then. I'd never heard of BR until the whole hunger games controversy, but then if it came out in 2000, I was 12 and what is this.

Welp, I feel old now. Thanks. :smallwink:
Yeah, 12 year old Glyphstone has no business knowing about that film.

VanBuren
2012-09-07, 02:23 PM
It's not as if I can prove she ripped off BR; that's not my point.

What is your point? That because you don't respect her, then it's not possible that she's familiar with a myth that she herself named?

MLai
2012-09-07, 10:33 PM
Regarding Battle Royale novel vs film vs manga:
I've no objections on being corrected on that. My point remains that I think she ripped off BR, and if it's the movie she ripped, then okay I stand corrected on that detail.


What is your point? That because you don't respect her, then it's not possible that she's familiar with a myth that she herself named?
My point is that because I don't respect her as a good writer, then I am willing to assume the worst when her novel bears striking similarities in theme and background to a not-that-obscure foreign novel/film that was released within the immediate time frame of her novel-writing.

The Theseus thing? Obviously she had to deal with the plausible accusation, and she had to think about it. Anyone could then come up with the line "Oh no, my true inspiration was actually Greek myth. See, I'm so erudite."

Reverent-One
2012-09-07, 10:42 PM
Except that she would have to find that myth after the fact, despite not knowing that it exists. Given the significant differences between the two (EDIT: Referring to THG and BR here), her actually not being aware of a movie that's she's not in the target demographic for and basing the idea more on the Theseus myth is the simpler and more likely explanation.

MLai
2012-09-07, 11:25 PM
Umm it's nice you're defending her integrity. I do acknowledge that I'm purposely making a fallacy here: I'm inferring her artistic integrity based on my perception of her writing skill. And yes I'm doing that as a mean-spirited joke.

However, the Theseus myth is not "the simpler and more likely explanation." In this age of globalized entertainment, a not-obscure foreign movie that has English translations is easily available to her. And, obviously she is in the target demographic -- she wrote something very similar to it!

As for how she found the Theseus myth after the fact? Umm, Google. It would take all of 10 minutes looking up a few keywords. I'm a hobby writer who is old enough to remember libraries, and from personal experience I can say Google changed everything.

VanBuren
2012-09-07, 11:32 PM
Regarding Battle Royale novel vs film vs manga:
I've no objections on being corrected on that. My point remains that I think she ripped off BR, and if it's the movie she ripped, then okay I stand corrected on that detail.


My point is that because I don't respect her as a good writer, then I am willing to assume the worst when her novel bears striking similarities in theme and background to a not-that-obscure foreign novel/film that was released within the immediate time frame of her novel-writing.

The Theseus thing? Obviously she had to deal with the plausible accusation, and she had to think about it. Anyone could then come up with the line "Oh no, my true inspiration was actually Greek myth. See, I'm so erudite."

You're still throwing around words like "obviously", while the matter is anything but. You don't like her, we get that. That doesn't mean plagiarism.

Reverent-One
2012-09-07, 11:36 PM
However, the Theseus myth is not "the simpler and more likely explanation." In this age of globalized entertainment, a not-obscure foreign movie that has English translations is easily available to her.

If you know what to look for. Which most Americans who wouldn't. It is an obscure movie for Americans, not getting a theatrical release here until 2011.


And, obviously she is in the target demographic -- she wrote something very similar to it!

No, she wrote something that has a similar base concept, but that's about the extent of it.

MLai
2012-09-07, 11:48 PM
No, I wouldn't say she committed plagiarism, even in my most mean-spirited fallacious assertions. Plagiarism would mean she took BR and copied the plot wholesale, including using specific paragraphs/words, only modifying it a bit for a different audience.
When I say "ripped off", I only mean that she took the specific base concept (and then wrote clumsily around that).
As in, "Hmm... this Jpnese movie is like The Running Man... plus teenagers! Oh what a brilliant idea, I bet I could work with that." I wouldn't say she copied much beyond that.

Reverent-One
2012-09-07, 11:52 PM
And why couldn't she have gotten the idea from the Theseus myth, which she explicitly cites as a source and has more in common with the Hunger Games than Battle Royale does to begin with?

MLai
2012-09-08, 12:24 AM
And why couldn't she have gotten the idea from the Theseus myth, which she explicitly cites as a source and has more in common with the Hunger Games than Battle Royale does to begin with?
You've got to be joking.
This is getting nowhere anyways. We've already made our points clear. Conclusion: I think THG sucks. Leave it at that, ok?

Reverent-One
2012-09-08, 12:31 AM
You've got to be joking.
This is getting nowhere anyways. We've already made our points clear. Conclusion: I think THG sucks. Leave it at that, ok?

Nope. I find the specific similarities the Theseus myth has with THG more important than the more general similarities it has with BR. But fine.

Lord Seth
2012-09-08, 01:01 AM
Conclusion: I think THG sucks. Leave it at that, ok?There's a difference between disliking a series and claiming (without real proof) that the author intentionally took ideas from another series.

MLai
2012-09-08, 01:04 AM
It's something that bugs me about Hunger Games. :smallamused:

I'd rather talk about ponies. Those "X finds portal to Equestria" threads are starting to work their magic on me.

Starbuck_II
2012-09-08, 01:12 AM
Umm it's nice you're defending her integrity. I do acknowledge that I'm purposely making a fallacy here: I'm inferring her artistic integrity based on my perception of her writing skill. And yes I'm doing that as a mean-spirited joke.

However, the Theseus myth is not "the simpler and more likely explanation." In this age of globalized entertainment, a not-obscure foreign movie that has English translations is easily available to her. And, obviously she is in the target demographic -- she wrote something very similar to it!


Yes and Battle Royale plagarized the Thesues Myth. So it doesn't matter both weren't original.

Xondoure
2012-09-08, 02:09 AM
Well, the other thing is that if you've read Collins other series Gregor the Overlander it is very clear that she is trying to tell stories that in some ways deconstruct the heroic teenager saving the world by making them face up to the horrible post traumatic stress disorder. The hunger games isn't that far of a jump from her previous series. Making the hunger games all about children hunting children for the amusement of the masses is pretty much complete exposure of her message.

Lord Seth
2012-09-08, 02:41 AM
It's something that bugs me about Hunger Games. :smallamused:Except, as pointed out, you have yet to actually prove what you constantly seem to assert as fact.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-08, 08:33 AM
Well, the other thing is that if you've read Collins other series Gregor the Overlander it is very clear that she is trying to tell stories that in some ways deconstruct the heroic teenager saving the world by making them face up to the horrible post traumatic stress disorder. The hunger games isn't that far of a jump from her previous series. Making the hunger games all about children hunting children for the amusement of the masses is pretty much complete exposure of her message.

She wrote the Gregor books? I'd never noticed that...I liked those stories.:smallcool:

Tyndmyr
2012-09-12, 11:30 AM
Yes and Battle Royale plagarized the Thesues Myth. So it doesn't matter both weren't original.

I'm not sure it really did. It's a helluva lot more about typically japanese fears and cultural issues than it is anything like the greek stuff. Evidence?

nyarlathotep
2012-09-12, 03:34 PM
I'm not sure it really did. It's a helluva lot more about typically japanese fears and cultural issues than it is anything like the greek stuff. Evidence?

The argument is that THG is ripping off BR just as much as BR is ripping off Theseus. In both cases the literary purpose of the stories wildly varies from their stated source of plagiarism (BR exploration of Japanese nationalism etc, and THG criticism of reality TV and classism in America). Both however have similar setting devices leading to people who either aren't paying attention or don't examine anything below the absolute surface to claim THG ripped off BR.

That being said I think THG was pretty bad, just that claiming it ripped off BR is fundamentally dumb and represents an inability or refusal to analyze literature.

Mynxae
2012-09-14, 11:59 PM
This thread is way off-topic.. :smalleek:

OT: I love the Hunger Games. I've seen the movie. I bought all three books (fairly cheap too!) shortly after, and devoured them quite quickly. All in all, a great series. /shrugs Finnick sounds pretty hot too. :smallbiggrin:

Mauve Shirt
2012-09-16, 10:16 PM
Just finished the third book. Great series. Young adult literature is vastly underestimated.

Avilan the Grey
2012-09-17, 06:38 AM
However, the Theseus myth is not "the simpler and more likely explanation." In this age of globalized entertainment, a not-obscure foreign movie that has English translations is easily available to her. And, obviously she is in the target demographic -- she wrote something very similar to it!

I am sorry, but this argument only serves to show that you have not learned about something in school that a lot of us did. I knew about the Minotaur myth before I became a teenager.

I also love your last sentence in that paragraph. Nice try using circular reasoning there.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-09-17, 07:02 AM
It's worth pointing out that Collins does know her stuff. From the Romans' recreational bulimia to a rather cool reference to the Theseus myth in Book 2 (the part when Theseus uses a golden thread that weaves through the Labyrinth to bust his way out of the maze), she actually does go to pains to make something substantial out of it.

Also, claiming that she'd much rather rip off Battle Royale because it's current (and, presumably, because it'd be a ripoff) than be inspired by a classic myth is a little paranoidish...

ThiagoMartell
2012-09-17, 09:37 AM
It's worth pointing out that Collins does know her stuff. From the Romans' recreational bulimia to a rather cool reference to the Theseus myth in Book 2 (the part when Theseus uses a golden thread that weaves through the Labyrinth to bust his way out of the maze), she actually does go to pains to make something substantial out of it.


Except the romans had no recreational bulimia. That myth arose from a mistranslation of vomitorium, which in fact has nothing to do with vomit.

And now you know.

Chen
2012-09-17, 10:12 AM
Just finished the third book. Great series. Young adult literature is vastly underestimated.

While I liked the series overall, the last third/quarter of the third book is pretty weak and pointless. Its pretty unfortunate that the series ended on such a low note, especially compared to the rest.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-17, 10:15 AM
While I liked the series overall, the last third/quarter of the third book is pretty weak and pointless. Its pretty unfortunate that the series ended on such a low note, especially compared to the rest.

Most of the third book is weak and pointless. Great if you like worldbuilding, not so much for story.

Starbuck_II
2012-09-17, 10:22 AM
It's worth pointing out that Collins does know her stuff. From the Romans' recreational bulimia to a rather cool reference to the Theseus myth in Book 2 (the part when Theseus uses a golden thread that weaves through the Labyrinth to bust his way out of the maze), she actually does go to pains to make something substantial out of it.



The recreational bulimia was very disgusting to read. They do this so they can eat some more. :smalleek:

Tyndmyr
2012-09-17, 01:36 PM
It's worth pointing out that Collins does know her stuff. From the Romans' recreational bulimia to a rather cool reference to the Theseus myth in Book 2 (the part when Theseus uses a golden thread that weaves through the Labyrinth to bust his way out of the maze), she actually does go to pains to make something substantial out of it.

This is less "knows her stuff" and more "wikied some crap to rip off".

It's like the whole "grain and oil" bit. Or her fixation on bread. Yeah, I get it...bread and circuses reference to the romans. You're very clever, congrats on having heard probably the most famous references to the defining culture in human history. Problem is, it makes no damned sense in the context of your story.

Look, I grew up in a rural area. I can actually hunt, trap, etc. I'm actually capable with a bow. Real hunters are not terribly successful if they're as terribly unobservant as she constantly is. Even the most clueless about the woods person should realize that her habit of occasionally blurting out the irrelevant to the situation info about the world is...not only horribly unbelievable, but kind of opposed to anything like skill in what we're told is her expertise.

And forget, yknow, foreshadowing or anything. Instead, we'll have the villain as some poorly constructed fellow with nothing better to do than threaten her personally and go around smelling like blood. Seriously, subtlety does not exist in these books.

The Succubus
2012-09-18, 06:18 AM
Meh, I watched it. It feels like a pale imitation of Battle Royale with an over emphasised political angle and too much technology.

Kinslayer
2012-09-18, 06:30 AM
Instead, we'll have the villain as some poorly constructed fellow with nothing better to do than threaten her personally and go around smelling like blood. Seriously, subtlety does not exist in these books.

I've never gotten the allure in having a blood-soaked villian. I mean, it can fit if the guy is cursed to a horrible un-life, or something. But just an ordinary* guy, that happens to smell like blood most of the time? It sounds like a butcher with poor hygiene. :smallconfused:

* For a given value of ordinary

Tyndmyr
2012-09-18, 09:14 AM
I've never gotten the allure in having a blood-soaked villian. I mean, it can fit if the guy is cursed to a horrible un-life, or something. But just an ordinary* guy, that happens to smell like blood most of the time? It sounds like a butcher with poor hygiene. :smallconfused:

* For a given value of ordinary

My theory is that she was trying too hard to match twilight.
Faceless girl that's basically a self-insert for the reader? Check.
Two boys in love with her despite her not doing a thing? Check.
A huge inability for her to notice anything or make choices? Check.

Add some bloody villains and you're pretty much there.

The Succubus
2012-09-18, 10:03 AM
You know, I really think that's the solution to the problem. A Create Your Own Teenage Romance book. Much like Joe Dever's "Lone Wolf" series, except for angsty teenage girls:

"You gaze into the dreamy eyes of the black haired boy before you, his torn shirt scarely hiding his rippling torso. He stares back at you, before his senuous lips part slightly revealing two very pointed incisors. If you:

a) Tear the rest of his shirt off before shoving your tongue down his throat, turn to 110.

b) Freak out about the fact that he's a fricking blood-sucking vampire, turn to 86.

That way, if your main character is an indecisive airhead with the self-preservation instincts of a lemming base-jumper, you've only yourself to blame.

Devonix
2012-09-18, 10:09 AM
Meh, I watched it. It feels like a pale imitation of Battle Royale with an over emphasised political angle and too much technology.

... over emphasised political angle??? The political angle was sorta the point of the story What else would they emphasize?

Devonix
2012-09-18, 10:10 AM
Meh, I watched it. It feels like a pale imitation of Battle Royale with an over emphasised political angle and too much technology.

... over emphasised political angle??? The political angle was sorta the point of the story What else would they emphasize?

Tyndmyr
2012-09-18, 10:56 AM
... over emphasised political angle??? The political angle was sorta the point of the story What else would they emphasize?

The political angle was all "them folks are bad". That's as deep as it got. Oh, sure, it used the titles of president and mayor, but it never explains what they mean. Hell, both of these titles appear to be held for quite some time, and we hear nothing of elections, so they would not even seem to be used appropriately.

We literally know basically nothing of the actual politics in the books. There's just an evil president smelling like blood running an empire that's evil for the lulz. It's kind of hard to get anything useful from that.

Starbuck_II
2012-09-18, 12:36 PM
I've never gotten the allure in having a blood-soaked villian. I mean, it can fit if the guy is cursed to a horrible un-life, or something. But just an ordinary* guy, that happens to smell like blood most of the time? It sounds like a butcher with poor hygiene. :smallconfused:

* For a given value of ordinary

What he uses Blood perfume, blood has a nice acidic scent, that might be attracting to right girl.

Look at all the Twilight fans that are female (and not teenagers) like Moms (single or married).
I mean, the movie version is better than the book of Twilight: my mom only recently heard the book on tape: she can't stand the book version of Bella.

Chen
2012-09-19, 08:37 AM
The blood thing is explained in the second or third book I believe.

If I recall it has to do with some sort of poison that was used to try and kill him in the past and its why he always has the roses around him to try and mask the smell.

mangosta71
2012-09-19, 09:20 AM
The political angle was all "them folks are bad". That's as deep as it got.
Not even that deep. It's more "Anyone that Katniss dislikes is evil." Her stylist and team participated in the culture of the childmurder games, but she never condemns them for doing so, or for the decadent lifestyle that she claims to find so upsetting. Of course, when she's the one stuffing herself with more food than she can eat it's the right thing to do, but anyone else who does that is a disgusting animal.

Yes, I did read the entire Farla review. And enjoyed it immensely.

The blood thing is explained in the second or third book I believe.

If I recall it has to do with some sort of poison that was used to try and kill him in the past and its why he always has the roses around him to try and mask the smell.
Third book.
Finnick explains that Snow assassinated a number of his political enemies via poison that he himself also ingested to allay suspicion, resulting in bloody open sores in his mouth. Of course, this creates the plothole of how nobody noticed that he always somehow received the antidote in time to save his life, or how the magical medical technology of the Capital can't simply lase them shut...

Tyndmyr
2012-09-19, 09:30 AM
The technology level seems weirdly variable. Wait, they have super-tech that results in flying "hovercraft"(that word means something already, dear author. It isn't that.), super force fields, making of creatures(including apparently custom creatures on very short order)...but they're dependent on these crappy survival level districts. Why? That's not a very natural outcome of tech.

If you can custom build creatures from scratch on little notice and have oodles of wealth, why is making food creatures a problem?

Hell, why are they reliant on artificial limbs? Growing a limb should be significantly easier than scratch-building entire creatures. It's difficult to imagine how you could gain the understanding to do the latter without basically knowing how to do the former.

And the whole central premise was shaky as hell. Why is Katniss so important? Why doesn't Snow just off her if he feels like it(it will cause rebellion? Cmon. Think about that justification for two seconds when there's already rebellion)? The whole "quarter quell" thing feels like a huge ass-pull to justify another hunger games thing. And frankly, the whole love => rebellion aspect just feels forced.