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View Full Version : Grand Army of the Republic (Star Wars) vs. Terran Dominion Army (Starcraft)



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LaughingGnoll
2012-09-05, 10:56 AM
In my scenario, the Terrans, in their ever expanding style of life, stumble upon the area of space known to the Republic as the Outer Rim. Because of some unfortunate altercation, the Republic dispatches part of their Clone Army to repel the invaders, and Arcturus Mengsk has ordered that the Dominion's army mobilize to defend their newly conquered planet.

The battle will take place on an open, featureless area, with both sides entrenched in relatively fortified positions. Both armies have small squads of their respective vehicles at their disposal, as well as the personell to operate them.

The technology on both sides is fairly similar, at least in demonstrated power. While most of the Star Wars technology is laser based, the Terrans have been able to go toe to toe with the Protoss laser/shield technology and come out on top sometimes. However, the Terran Marine Corps is primarily composed of "resocialized" criminals, and morale isn't necessarily a grand feature of the Dominion forces, and the Clone Army has been "genetically engineered" to make all the soldiers less dominant.

So could a Thor take out an AT-TE? Would a Marine/Marauder Squad be able to take out the best of the squads in the 501st? Could an LAAT-Gunship fry a Viking out of the sky?

BRC
2012-09-05, 11:16 AM
Depends on the size of the engagement, and if each side has equal troops. As I see it (With my limited knowledge of Star Wars), the bigger the battle, the less advantage the Terrans have.

Terran Marines have the advantage of equipment. Their basic foot soldier is wearing heavy duty power armor, and their standard weapon will blow a clone trooper to pieces with one shot.

Mind you, that's not as big an advantage as it sounds. Modern armies use weapons that blow each other to pieces with a single shot.
However, that same basic foot soldier has a good chance of being a violent criminal stuffed to the gils with stim packs. One-to-one, a Marine will smash a clone trooper. As the engagement gets larger, the trooper's superior training and discipline will start to tell. They'll get better at separating the Terran troops and engaging only when they have a numerical advantage. The Terrans will win the initial engagements, their powered armor and heavier firepower taking a serious toll, but if the campaign continues the Republic troops will adapt.

And they WILL have a Numerical Advantage. The Dominion controls only a handful of systems, with only nominal control over a few more. They are one of only a few Terran factions in the sector. Even if they were able to send their entire force, it would only be a fraction of the size of the Republic's troops.
Unless this is settled by a small skirmish or a BBQ cook off, I don't see this going well for the Terrans.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-05, 11:32 AM
Agreed. On a unit-by-unit basis, the Terran forces are superior; Marines eat Clone Troopers for breakfast, Vultures are literally speeder bikes with extra armor, Goliaths are more maneuverable than AT-TEs, the Terrans have actual field-grade artillery, and every Battlecruiser is the equivalent of a Star Destroyer that's been given a scaled-down superlaser.

Morale-wise, Republic has an advantage, since all of their troops are programmed for reliability and loyalty, while only the Resocialized Terran troopers have that hard-coded programming, making their officer corps the weak point instead of the grunts.

Logistically, the Republic sweeps this entire match almost effortlessly. A vastly larger army and far more industrial output; they have entire planets dedicated to replacing lost war materiel. At worst, they can drown the Dominion by attrition.

ZeroNumerous
2012-09-05, 02:15 PM
Aren't Terran Marines kind of total idiots who consistently get ambushed by hydralisks or zerglings crawling along the ceiling? Or use their thermonuclear weapon's cooling system as a beer fridge?

I would think that level of stupidity would be the deciding factor in this, given that Clones have rarely displayed the same level of intelligence.


Agreed. On a unit-by-unit basis, the Terran forces are superior; Marines eat Clone Troopers for breakfast, Vultures are literally speeder bikes with extra armor, Goliaths are more maneuverable than AT-TEs, the Terrans have actual field-grade artillery, and every Battlecruiser is the equivalent of a Star Destroyer that's been given a scaled-down superlaser.

I feel like this is a gross overestimation of the Terran's abilities. My statement on their infantry is above, so I'll continue on with the other parts.

I agree that Vultures are essentially upscaled speeder bikes, and that Goliaths are more maneuverable than AT-TEs. But they're both using incredibly crappy weapons. They're firing slug-throwers or grenade launchers, whereas even basic speeder bikes are equipped with blaster cannons--blaster cannons, I might add, are also the standard weapon for starfighters in Star Wars. Between a speeder bike and a Vulture: It depends on who shoots first. And given that the speeder bike likely doesn't need to be terribly close to fire his blaster cannon: I'm gonna give it to the speeder bike.

AT-TE vs Goliath is even more ridiculously stompy. Goliaths are firing autocannons, but the AT-TE is a mobile blister of starship-scale guns. Not only that, but the AT-TE's cannons can swivel and point in a 360 degree arc around the walker. The Goliath's mobility doesn't mean anything if the AT-TE can kill it with its laser cannons, and the Goliath certainly proves suspectible to even the small arms fire of Marines so I don't see why the AT-TE would have any trouble.

An Acclamator-class Star Destroyer vs a Battlecruiser is hilariously stompy in favor of the Star Destroyer. The basic model of Acclamator-I Star Destroyer carries up to 156 V-19 Torrent starfighters. Each of which is, at very least, equal to a Wraith. If not better, given that their pilots aren't insane. An Acclamator never needs to actually fight the Battlecruiser, as it just has to launch its fighter complement and watch the Battlecruiser struggle shortly before getting destroyed. If the Battlecruiser tries to engage, then the Acclamator can easily hyperspace to a safe distance if it feels threatened at all.

Even if the Acclamator and the Battlecruiser do get in a slugging match: The battlecruiser's only 560 meters, and considers nuclear missiles a substantial part of its armament. The Acclamator's 752 meters, and mounts several turbolasers as standard along with battleship-scale proton torpedos. While turbolasers have a storied history in terms of energy output: Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross-Sections references these turbolasers as having 200 gigaton yields. Given that most nuclear weapons today are referenced in megatons(Mts) or kilotons(kTs)... Well, I'd say the turbolasers are substantially better.

And as far as the Yamato being anything similiar to a superlaser: Well, certain classes of Super Star Destroyers(Eclipse, specifically) have a superlaser equal to 1 of the 8 conjoining lasers that makes up the Death Star I's main gun. It's stated as taking up a substantial amount of space in the Super Star Destroyer(which are over 17,000 meters long), and could destroy other Super Star Destroyers in a single shot. Given that the Yamato can't even destroy another Battlecruiser in one shot: I highly doubt it's anything in the same league as a superlaser. At best I'd say it's a heavy turbolaser, but no where near superlaser power.

Regardless: The Acclamator's firing weapons much stronger than one of the strongest weapons the Battlecruiser has, and it's designed to fight other ships using the same category of weapons. And on top of that the Acclamator is the smallest capital ship available to the GAR. A Venator-class Star Destroyer is twice as long as the Battlecruiser(1137 meters), carries over 300 starfighters, and has substantially more firepower than the Acclamator. And, if we're talking about the late Clone Wars GAR, then they might have access to Imperial-class Star Destroyer, who're three times as long(1,600 meters) and carry proportionally more weaponry.

And, to top it all off, a group of Acclamator-Is are canonically capable of performing a Base Delta Zero.

There's really not much of a chance for the Terrans in a full head-on battle between the two.

Dienekes
2012-09-05, 02:22 PM
Aren't Terran Marines kind of total idiots who consistently get ambushed by hydralisks or zerglings crawling along the ceiling? Or use their thermonuclear weapon's cooling system as a beer fridge?

I would think that level of stupidity would be the deciding factor in this, given that Clones have rarely displayed the same level of intelligence.

Yeah, the Terran can be stupid. But let's be fair here, in the movies anyway, the Clones aren't presented with an overabundance of intelligence. There only tactic seems to be clump in a mass and charge over open terrain. Yeah, terrain marines do the same thing, but they at least have medics who can apparently heal whatever damage this ridiculous tactic would inflict instantaneously.

ZeroNumerous
2012-09-05, 02:26 PM
Yeah, the Terran can be stupid. But let's be fair here, in the movies anyway, the Clones aren't presented with an overabundance of intelligence. There only tactic seems to be clump in a mass and charge over open terrain. Yeah, terrain marines do the same thing, but they at least have medics who can apparently heal whatever damage this ridiculous tactic would inflict instantaneously.

To be fair, all other instances of Clones in media have them displaying substantially more intelligence. The Clone Wars cartoon is T-level canon that shows just how effective Clones can be.

Also: Medics only heal Marines that don't die instantly, and if the lethality of Han Solo's blaster pistol can be believed then there's not much left to heal after a Marine gets shot by a Clone. :smalltongue:

BRC
2012-09-05, 02:28 PM
Aren't Terran Marines kind of total idiots who consistently get ambushed by hydralisks or zerglings crawling along the ceiling? Or use their thermonuclear weapon's cooling system as a beer fridge?

I would think that level of stupidity would be the deciding factor in this, given that Clones have rarely displayed the same level of intelligence.

They're not any more or less intelligent than normal people. We see them getting ambushed in cuttscenes, but it's not something that is "Constantly" happening.
Also, zerglings and hydralisks are ambush predators. You don't have to be a Total Idiot to get ambushed by them, you just have to be unlucky.
As for the beer-cooler scene, that is more missapplied resourcefullness than stupidity. The line in question is "Thank God for Cold Fusion", implying the bomb was some kind of cold fusion device, which would likely be cold anyway. They didn't seem to think they were in any real danger, which was the stupid part, not that they decided to keep their beers cold.

The clones are probably smarter, because they're clones of a supposedly intelligent bounty hunter, raised to be soldiers and tactical thinkers. And that is an advantage, one that will become increasingly relevant as the conflict goes on and they learn their way around the terrans.

The Terrans are poorly trained, but they are wearing power armor. It will take numerical superiority and clever tactics for clone troopers to take down marines, both of which they have, but in the meantime a Marine can shrug off blaster fire while any clone troopers who get hit will be blown to pieces by their Gauss rifles. Eventually the clone troopers will start focusing fire and bringing more heavy weapons to the fight, negating the advantage that power armor brings, but in the initial clash when neither side knows the other, my money is going to be on the guys who go into battle wearing a tank.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-05, 02:40 PM
"Thank Gawd for Cold Fusion". Though that may have just been more stupidity.

Fair points across the board, though I think you're making a mistake of equivalence with the battlecruiser. Your assumption is that because a Yamato blast can't kill a Battlecruiser in one hit, it must be equivalent to a weaker Star Wars weapon. Consider though that said Battlecruiser can also survive being at ground zero of a thermonuclear detonation, so either the weapon damage in-game does not reflect its supposed reality, Starcraft does not merely have weak weapons but the ability to warp the laws of physics, or else Battlecruisers are just insanely tough and well-armored, to the point where they could theoretically survive a hit from an Eclipse-class superlaser grade weapon.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100809020209/starcraft/images/9/90/YamatoGun_SC1_CineInauguration2.jpg

Battlecruiser being fragged by a Yamato blast, from an in-game cinematic.

Behemoth-class cruisers can also carry onboard Wraith fighters, which look to be much better than a V-19 Torrent - they display equivalent firepower and maneuverability, and the Wraith has an onboard cloaking device that isn't disrupted when it fires; a little bit of crazy is worth an untouchable target that can shred your enemy's fighter complement then go after his capital ship, who won't see them coming.

A group of battlecruisers canonically performed the equivalent of Base Delta Zero in the destruction of Korhal, though they used nuclear missiles instead of lasers. Battlecruisers may be smaller than their opposite numbers, but I think it's evident that they punch far above their weight class, and can take the hits commensurate to that.

(You also cited Incredible Cross-Sections, which I think is common parlance for invalidating an entire argument anywhere outside SSD.net, but mileage may vary:smallbiggrin:).

ZeroNumerous
2012-09-05, 02:41 PM
They're not any more or less intelligent than normal people. We see them getting ambushed in cuttscenes, but it's not something that is "Constantly" happening.

The burrow ability and it's cited in-universe danger argues otherwise. It tells me that Marines are far too stupid to look for disturbances in the ground or scout ahead. In fact, it's listed in the Starcraft 1 handbook as being "responsible for the death of countless terran soldiers".


Also, zerglings and hydralisks are ambush predators. You don't have to be a Total Idiot to get ambushed by them, you just have to be unlucky.

Ambush predators in a hallway. The only possible way to get ambushed? Not looking up.

Personally? I think you do have to be a total idiot to get ambushed when all you have to do is look up.


They didn't seem to think they were in any real danger, which was the stupid part, not that they decided to keep their beers cold.

Opening their cold fusion bomb to get out beers rather than setting it and leaving isn't stupid? Bringing beers on an important mission isn't stupid? I think the beer-bomb scene proves how incredibly stupid they are.


The Terrans are poorly trained, but they are wearing power armor. It will take numerical superiority and clever tactics for clone troopers to take down marines, both of which they have, but in the meantime a Marine can shrug off blaster fire while any clone troopers who get hit will be blown to pieces by their Gauss rifles. Eventually the clone troopers will start focusing fire and bringing more heavy weapons to the fight, negating the advantage that power armor brings, but in the initial clash when neither side knows the other, my money is going to be on the guys who go into battle wearing a tank.

Super Battle Droids go down to blaster fire easily, and they literally are walking tanks with no sensitive parts to be damaged. I doubt greatly that Marines are more resilient than Super Battle Droids. I think you're greatly overestimating the power of body armor, or greatly underestimating the power of blaster rifles. Either way, I feel the Clone's track record against Super Battle Droids is applicable here against Marines, and they've proven extremely deadly versus Super Battle Droids.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-05, 02:46 PM
Opening their cold fusion bomb to get out beers rather than setting it and leaving isn't stupid? Bringing beers on an important mission isn't stupid? I think the beer-bomb scene proves how incredibly stupid they are.



It shows they're human beings, soldiers. They have personalities (if deviant ones), unlike the faceless, emotionless clones.



The burrow ability and it's cited in-universe danger argues otherwise. It tells me that Marines are far too stupid to look for disturbances in the ground or scout ahead. In fact, it's listed in the Starcraft 1 handbook as being "responsible for the death of countless terran soldiers".

Same problem again. You see that Burrow is dangerous and assume the worst interpretation possible for the Marines, that they're too stupid to look down. Burrowed enemies can only be detected by sensors also capable of tracking invisible targets, so the non-slanted interpretation is just that burrowed zerg are Really Really Hard to spot, not that they don't try.

ZeroNumerous
2012-09-05, 02:56 PM
Your assumption is that because a Yamato blast can't kill a Battlecruiser in one hit, it must be equivalent to a weaker Star Wars weapon. Consider though that said Battlecruiser can also survive being at ground zero of a thermonuclear detonation, so either the weapon damage in-game does not reflect its supposed reality, Starcraft does not merely have weak weapons but the ability to warp the laws of physics, or else Battlecruisers are just insanely tough and well-armored, to the point where they could theoretically survive a hit from an Eclipse-class superlaser grade weapon.

No, I don't believe that's possible. Again, canonically a single turbolaser is 200 gigatons of power, and that kind of output outstrip thermonuclear weapons easily. I'm gonna go with #4: Battlecruisers are weakly armed and armored when compared to a different universe's standard of power.

Battlecruisers consider thermonuclear missiles as part of their main armament, and thus they are considered in-universe to be a serious threat to other Battlecruisers. The Terran army also considers nuclear missiles to be valuable and powerful weapons available only to their very well trained ghost operatives. Again, these types of weapons are only equal to the basic weapons of a Star Destroyer. So given that A) the Terran army considers these weapons viable against other battlecruisers, and B) these weapons are only equal to the basic of weapons on a Star Destroyer, I must infer that a Star Destroyer's basic weaponry would be considered a substantial threat to a Battlecruiser.


http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100809020209/starcraft/images/9/90/YamatoGun_SC1_CineInauguration2.jpg

Battlecruiser being fragged by a Yamato blast, from an in-game cinematic.

Again: It's an issue of scale. That blast is damaging a 560 meter ship. The Eclipse's superlaser instantly destroys a ship literally 31.25 times larger. These weapons cannot possibly be on the same scale. At all.


Behemoth-class cruisers can also carry onboard Wraith fighters, which look to be much better than a V-19 Torrent - they display equivalent firepower and maneuverability, and the Wraith has an onboard cloaking device that isn't disrupted when it fires; a little bit of crazy is worth an untouchable target that can shred your enemy's fighter complement then go after his capital ship, who won't see them coming.

Star Wars has its own variety of cloaking devices, and given that cloaking technology hasn't completely overwritten everything in Star Wars' military doctrine: I can only assume that they have ways to combat this technology. As for equivalent firepower: The Wraith seems to have trouble with Marines, organic creatures, and ground-based anti-aircraft facilities. Meanwhile, the V-19 is considered a threat to other capitalships, let alone their danger to ground-based installations.


A group of battlecruisers canonically performed the equivalent of Base Delta Zero in the destruction of Korhal, though they used nuclear missiles instead of lasers. Battlecruisers may be smaller than their opposite numbers, but I think it's evident that they punch far above their weight class, and can take the hits commensurate to that.

There's one difference between a BDZ and a nuclear bombardment of a planet: The nukes leave survivors.

And yes, I agree that they pack a punch above their weight class and can take hits. But only in their perspective universe. When each turbolaser shot is considered the equivalent of several Terran nuclear missiles: I feel that the battlecruisers are going to be greatly outclassed.


(You also cited Incredible Cross-Sections, which I think is common parlance for invalidating an entire argument anywhere outside SSD.net, but mileage may vary:smallbiggrin:).

It's considered canon, so I have to use it. Otherwise I'd just cite the fact that Battlecruisers can't one-shot Marines in game and this entire argument becomes moot.

Tavar
2012-09-05, 02:58 PM
I'd point out that, while Goliaths are more maneuverable than the AT-ET, the same can be said of the vulture. But that doesn't really matter, because the AT-ET isn't meant to serve the purpose of the Goliath. The former is a main battle tank analogue(so, more appropriately compares with the Siege Tank or Thor). The latter is...well, it's not a tank substitute. Probably some sort of armored vehicle comparison?

In any case, I'd say that the AT-ET preforms it's role as a tank much better than the Thor(focused on anti-infantry and anti-air combat) or the Siege Tank(which is always better as an artillery piece, rather than a tank).

BRC
2012-09-05, 03:22 PM
The burrow ability and it's cited in-universe danger argues otherwise. It tells me that Marines are far too stupid to look for disturbances in the ground or scout ahead. In fact, it's listed in the Starcraft 1 handbook as being "responsible for the death of countless terran soldiers".



Ambush predators in a hallway. The only possible way to get ambushed? Not looking up.

Personally? I think you do have to be a total idiot to get ambushed when all you have to do is look up.

It's not an Ambush if you know it's coming and where to look.


Opening their cold fusion bomb to get out beers rather than setting it and leaving isn't stupid? Bringing beers on an important mission isn't stupid? I think the beer-bomb scene proves how incredibly stupid they are.

I just re watched the cinematic in question. Their orders were to go in there, set the bomb, and detonate it if they saw any signs of Zerg infestation. They scan the area with some sort of thermal visor, then crack open their beers. It's stupid that they were drinking instead of paying attention to their surroundings, but they HAD gotten the all-clear from thermal-visor guy. They probably assumed they were safe for the time being. Not a smart assumption, I'm not claiming these guys are geniuses, but you're assigning them a level of stupidity that I don't see demonstrated.



Super Battle Droids go down to blaster fire easily, and they literally are walking tanks with no sensitive parts to be damaged. I doubt greatly that Marines are more resilient than Super Battle Droids. I think you're greatly overestimating the power of body armor, or greatly underestimating the power of blaster rifles. Either way, I feel the Clone's track record against Super Battle Droids is applicable here against Marines, and they've proven extremely deadly versus Super Battle Droids.
Define "Easily". As in, does a single clone trooper just kind of casually shoot a SBD, or do they attack them with the advantage of numbers, experience, and clever tactics: The three things I say will let them take down Marines. Do they "Easily" beat SBD's, or do they "Consistantly" bead SBD's. The first implies it's no challenge, the second implies that they know how to beat SBD's.

It's also a misconception that a robot has no sensitive parts. Put a bullet through a computer and see if it works properly.

As for the power of blaster rifles, lets talk gross physical damage. If they're powerful enough to "Easily" penetrate a Marine's armor, then the landscape would look like swiss cheese after every battle. Han kills Greedo in one shot (And he shoots first), but I don't recall his blaster vaporising a good chunk of his torso, which it would need to do to take down an Armored Marine. It's simply a question of mass displaced.
I'm not saying that the Clone Troopers won't beat marines. They will. Because they are raised-from-birth soldiers instead of drugged up space-rednecks. It won't take them more than a few skirmishes before they have a whole list of ways to take down Marines, whether it's learning the weak points in their armor, or taking advantage of their lack of peripheral vision, or simply surrounding them, they will figure it out, because they're better soldiers.

What I'm saying is that, in the initial engagement, Marines have the advantage, because they don't need any special tricks. Because their weapons will blow Clone troopers to pieces.

I do have a question though. How good is your average clone trooper when cut off from the chain of command? If the Clone's commander got assassinated by a Ghost, or if a group of cloaked Banshees leveled their command post, would the clones be able to rebuild their chain of command, or would the same programming that makes them loyal and obedient prevent them from taking initiative with their commanders dead? I honestly don't know.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-05, 03:23 PM
Star Wars has its own variety of cloaking devices, and given that cloaking technology hasn't completely overwritten everything in Star Wars' military doctrine: I can only assume that they have ways to combat this technology. As for equivalent firepower: The Wraith seems to have trouble with Marines, organic creatures, and ground-based anti-aircraft facilities. Meanwhile, the V-19 is considered a threat to other capitalships, let alone their danger to ground-based installations.

It has cloaking devices, yes - look at ESB; when the Falcon disappears off the Imperial-class Star Destroyer's sensors, the captain assumes the ship used a cloaking device and doesn't even attempt to keep searching, no 'activate the cloak disruptors' or 'engage the tachyon repulsion nets'. So if there is a counter for cloaking technology in SW - a single type of specialized sensor that was both rare and extremely expensive, it is not something commonly included in a Star Destroyer's sensor suite. Plus, they're rare (cloaks). In the Dominion, cloaking technology is so well-developed and commonplace that they hand it out to mid-level spec-ops assassins and mount it on all their starfighters. Again, you're taking game mechanics as canon, whereas cutscenes show Wraith blasts as very destructive, and they are in-universe designed as anti-capital ship strike craft - until the Republic starts deploying specialized cloak-detecting ships, or refits their entire fleet to carry said specialized sensors, they're sitting ducks for any Wraith pilot with a charged power generator.




There's one difference between a BDZ and a nuclear bombardment of a planet: The nukes leave survivors.

There were no survivors of Korhal. It took 49 years for the radiation levels to drop low enough to where humans could walk on the surface without dying.



And yes, I agree that they pack a punch above their weight class and can take hits. But only in their perspective universe. When each turbolaser shot is considered the equivalent of several Terran nuclear missiles: I feel that the battlecruisers are going to be greatly outclassed.



It's considered canon, so I have to use it. Otherwise I'd just cite the fact that Battlecruisers can't one-shot Marines in game and this entire argument becomes moot.
The 200 gigaton figure was canonized by one book, by one author, whose extremely flawed and generous methodology of arriving at that figure has been infamously dissected and discussed to death ever since it was published. Diehard Saxtonites still defend it, but they're the only ones.

BRC
2012-09-05, 03:25 PM
There's one difference between a BDZ and a nuclear bombardment of a planet: The nukes leave survivors.

I don't recall any survivors on Korhal. Mengsk was off-planet at the time.

ZeroNumerous
2012-09-05, 04:10 PM
It's not an Ambush if you know it's coming and where to look.

It's a hallway, BRC. It has two directions(forward and back) and four surfaces. It is not hard at all to avoid an ambush in a hallway.


Not a smart assumption, I'm not claiming these guys are geniuses, but you're assigning them a level of stupidity that I don't see demonstrated.

Aside from the fact that, again, they get ambushed in a hallway. There's another cinematic where two guys are driving a military jeep down a road. They hit a zergling, kill it instantly, and get out of the jeep to poke it with sticks. That's B-movie stupid, and combined with their actions in the Brood War cinematic: I have to assume they're B-movie stupid.



Define "Easily". As in, does a single clone trooper just kind of casually shoot a SBD, or do they attack them with the advantage of numbers, experience, and clever tactics: The three things I say will let them take down Marines. Do they "Easily" beat SBD's, or do they "Consistantly" bead SBD's. The first implies it's no challenge, the second implies that they know how to beat SBD's.

In the films, SBDs go down in one to two blaster shots. In my personal favorite representation of SBDs(Star Wars: Republic Commando), they take focus fire from four troopers to down. So to answer your question: Both. G-level canon says they go down "easily", lesser canon says they go down "Consistently".


It's also a misconception that a robot has no sensitive parts. Put a bullet through a computer and see if it works properly.

It's also a misconception to assume SBDs are equal to computers. They're not. They're just robotic arm/legs/bodies with remote receivers to receive orders from the actual computers. SBDs don't have brains to shoot, nor do they bleed to death nor die from shock when their limbs are blown off.


As for the power of blaster rifles, lets talk gross physical damage. If they're powerful enough to "Easily" penetrate a Marine's armor, then the landscape would look like swiss cheese after every battle. Han kills Greedo in one shot (And he shoots first), but I don't recall his blaster vaporising a good chunk of his torso, which it would need to do to take down an Armored Marine.

In the same movie, the very same blaster blows up a good chunk of concrete. In the same movie, the very same blaster proves utterly ineffective against the thin metal of the Death Star. We can argue until the cows come home about Han Solo's blaster, because it's never been consistent. But okay, I'll grant that Marines might not instantly die unless shot in the face plate.

But Clones are capable of consistently making that shot.


What I'm saying is that, in the initial engagement, Marines have the advantage, because they don't need any special tricks. Because their weapons will blow Clone troopers to pieces.

I'll grant you that.


I do have a question though. How good is your average clone trooper when cut off from the chain of command? If the Clone's commander got assassinated by a Ghost, or if a group of cloaked Banshees leveled their command post, would the clones be able to rebuild their chain of command, or would the same programming that makes them loyal and obedient prevent them from taking initiative with their commanders dead? I honestly don't know.

Clones have the same kind of tiered chain of command as many current military structures, and their immediate commanders have a wide variety of independence. If we take only the movies as canon, then every clone is as independent as every other clone. If we bring in EU canon, then at the very smallest personnel levels clones have a hard time being truly original. They all still act like soldiers, and that means they'll all continue pursuing an important objective, but it also means that they'd lose sight of the long term goal.

It all depends on what is or isn't canon.


It has cloaking devices, yes - look at ESB; when the Falcon disappears off the Imperial-class Star Destroyer's sensors, the captain assumes the ship used a cloaking device and doesn't even attempt to keep searching, no 'activate the cloak disruptors' or 'engage the tachyon repulsion nets'.

I had completely forgotten about that moment. So I suppose Wraiths actually are a threat, depending on how efficient their missiles are against armor.


Again, you're taking game mechanics as canon, whereas cutscenes show Wraith blasts as very destructive, and they are in-universe designed as anti-capital ship strike craft - until the Republic starts deploying specialized cloak-detecting ships, or refits their entire fleet to carry said specialized sensors, they're sitting ducks for any Wraith pilot with a charged power generator.

Yes, a Wraith's blast is shown as being very destructive, but not lethal. None of the Marines caught in it actually die. Ground-based missile turrets are canonically capable of stopping Wraith attacks. While they may be more dangerous versus the Acclamator than I originally thought, they don't seem like a threat to ground targets.


There were no survivors of Korhal. It took 49 years for the radiation levels to drop low enough to where humans could walk on the surface without dying.


I don't recall any survivors on Korhal. Mengsk was off-planet at the time.

I stand corrected. I thought Mengsk survived, but I was wrong.


The 200 gigaton figure was canonized by one book, by one author, whose extremely flawed and generous methodology of arriving at that figure has been infamously dissected and discussed to death ever since it was published. Diehard Saxtonites still defend it, but they're the only ones.

Unfortunately, it's still canon. Even if I think it's a bit silly, it's still what's given as their power output, and no official source has said otherwise. I can't say "This isn't canon" because officially it is. If we throw it out, then why not throw out anything that isn't directly seen on screen?

BRC
2012-09-05, 04:22 PM
Provided we're talking about the same cutscene, they're not in a straight hallway. They walk through a hallway to an open chamber with a high ceiling and several doors leading in. They mention that they are supposed to detonate the bomb if they see any Zerg, it's not established if they are supposed to wait by the bomb, or if they are supposed to explore the facility and are just stopping to have a beer first.

Either way, they should have been paying more attention, but random Unarmored Guy With Thermal Goggles gave them the all-clear, so they assume they are safe for a few minutes. Maybe they don't think there are any Zerg on the station at all. At the time they are not "Looking" anywhere, they are facing inwards, drinking beer and talking to one another.
Which is even stupider than simply not looking up. The point is that they were in no way expecting an attack. They had reason to (They were apparently sent there to look for zerg), but they were not expecting it.


Edit: So Clone Troopers are perhaps slightly more vulnerable to a decapitating strike, but it dosn't sound like it's enough to make a big difference compared to how normal humans would cope with a similar situation.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-05, 04:58 PM
I saw a few people asking about the numbers issue. Umm can we be sure the clones are going to have a numerical advantage?

Just reading up there's apparently quite a bit of discrepancy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic#Numbers) on the actual clonepower of the so-call grand army. Including some stupid small numbers in the mere millions.

Mercenary Pen
2012-09-05, 05:46 PM
I saw a few people asking about the numbers issue. Umm can we be sure the clones are going to have a numerical advantage?

Just reading up there's apparently quite a bit of discrepancy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic#Numbers) on the actual clonepower of the so-call grand army. Including some stupid small numbers in the mere millions.

The line that canon seems to be drawing towards these days is 3 million + clones, with the Essential Guide to Warfare (published 2012) stating that Sifo-Dyas's initial order was for 3 million clones (p75), but suggesting that additional orders were subsequently placed (p97)- however, many battles in the war were fought with neither clones nor battle droids in attendance (p85).

Have provided page references in case somebody with the actual book wishes to double check my references- but from what I have seen, The essential guide to warfare was published with the aim of tying everything back together with as many retcons as they felt were needed- making certain that the official line on many of these issues was no longer ambiguous (even if some people still choose to dispute it).


Returning to the matter at hand, clone troopers were also equipped with EMP-Grenades (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electro_magnetic_pulse_grenade)- which should negate the advantage of their opponents power armour (though under the wrong circumstances it can also render the display inside a clone trooper's helmet useless for a period of time).

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-05, 06:22 PM
The line that canon seems to be drawing towards these days is 3 million + clones, with the Essential Guide to Warfare (published 2012) stating that Sifo-Dyas's initial order was for 3 million clones (p75), but suggesting that additional orders were subsequently placed (p97)- however, many battles in the war were fought with neither clones nor battle droids in attendance (p85).

Have provided page references in case somebody with the actual book wishes to double check my references- but from what I have seen, The essential guide to warfare was published with the aim of tying everything back together with as many retcons as they felt were needed- making certain that the official line on many of these issues was no longer ambiguous (even if some people still choose to dispute it).

Yeah but the 3 million we are talking exponentially below what a real galactic conflict should be.

Mind I couldn't find anything on actual numbers for the Terrans. Just that numerical superiority doesn't seem to be quiet assumable as it should be for a "sector" vs galaxy basis.

Logic
2012-09-05, 06:30 PM
Or use their thermonuclear weapon's cooling system as a beer fridge?
Speaking from my own personal military experience (I am still a reservist aircraft mechanic) if you have a cooling device nearby and handy, it will get used as a beer fridge, despite its design goal of cooling a thermonuclear weapon. This isn't idiocy, this is using something to your advantage, that it was not what it was originally designed to do. You could argue this is not idiocy, but instead ingenuity.

GolemsVoice
2012-09-05, 09:25 PM
Regarding the video: the only assault that happens is from the roof, which is, if you watch it, dimly lit and clouded by the obligatory spaceship-smoke. The Zerg coming down the hallway are just attacking, and you'll notice the marines start shooting them as appropriate.

The fact that the marines drink beer out of a nuclear fridge? The average life expectancy of a marine is not exactly high, and that's before combat drugs that eat you alive. Something as slow as radiation won't kill them.


Speaking of tactics:
I'm sure the clone troopers are capable of much more, and there are sources that show them as the soldiers they're supposed to be, but if I remember the the movie right (I don'T know which one, the one where they attack the big ball-shaped ships on the ground), their plan of attack was "march into enemy fire in a 19th century fashion"

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-05, 09:52 PM
The fact that the marines drink beer out of a nuclear fridge? The average life expectancy of a marine is not exactly high, and that's before combat drugs that eat you alive. Something as slow as radiation won't kill them.


I'd doubt there's any dose of radiation to be had that would be worse then what they got on that little shuttle coming in.

A properly shielded device should be essentially worry free anyways. Unless that thing is actually leaking radioactive material (ie its faulty) then it wouldn't make much difference if they carried the beers in their hands. Most radiation poisoning is from active contamination from radioactive particles themselves. Getting the stuff in your clothes, hair, fingernails, or injesting. So keeping yourself safe is a matter of keeping yourself clean, decom is a vigorous wash for this reason. But you have to have an actual leak for that to happen.

And if we take the marines at face value and that this is a fusion reaction... well IIRC H-bombs only actually cause fallout because at present you need an A-bomb to get the temperature you need. Cold fusion obviates that requirement by definition.

Radiation is easily the MOST overblown fear anywhere, ever.

Logic
2012-09-05, 10:13 PM
I'd doubt there's any dose of radiation to be had that would be worse then what they got on that little shuttle coming in.

A properly shielded device should be essentially worry free anyways. Unless that thing is actually leaking radioactive material (ie its faulty) then it wouldn't make much difference if they carried the beers in their hands. Most radiation poisoning is from active contamination from radioactive particles themselves. Getting the stuff in your clothes, hair, fingernails, or injesting. So keeping yourself safe is a matter of keeping yourself clean, decom is a vigorous wash for this reason. But you have to have an actual leak for that to happen.

And if we take the marines at face value and that this is a fusion reaction... well IIRC H-bombs only actually cause fallout because at present you need an A-bomb to get the temperature you need. Cold fusion obviates that requirement by definition.
Emphasis mine. Science Fiction is somewhat to blame for showing futuristic fusion drives that emit boatloads of radiation, when for the most part, those things would be less efficient than modern reactors.

Radiation is easily the MOST overblown fear anywhere, ever.
Unless you are someone like Thomas Edison, and actively playing with something you have little understanding of.

Traab
2012-09-05, 10:13 PM
I think for the moment we can ignore the numerical issue, as the OP states that its only a portion of the armies. So lets assume fairly equal in numbers. Marines are great at mowing down standard clone troopers. They have better armor, and I believe their weaponry would prove more effective against clone trooper armor, than blasters would against marine armor. Then you have marauders. These are troops that do damage specifically against armored units. They are there to bust open protoss shields, and blow up the robotic/cybernetic units. They would also likely do well against light armored vehicles like speeder bikes. Siege tanks have ludicrous range, and massive explosive damage. Im talking able to wipe out entire squads with 1-2 shots from so far away the enemy doesnt even see what killed them. Goliaths I would put on similar levels to the 2 legged walkers. Thors on the big at-ats.

As for air craft, those wraiths would be absolute MURDER in a fight. Unless there is some sort of anti stealth capability in the empire that would be included as standard on a mission of this type, (meaning before they know they NEED anti stealth) Then the wraiths would have a field day slaughtering enemy air AND ground simply by strafing and moving. They may or may not be able to do anything useful to enemy capitol ships. I mean, the x wing fighters were causing fairly noticeable damage to the surface of the death star. Blowing up weaponry, causing some internal explosions, things of that nature. So wraiths might at least be handy to take down shield emitters and target the weaponry, leaving the star wars ships sitting ducks. It may take more than 2 yamato blasts to drop a star destroyer, but thats ok, because they are defenseless now.

Someone mentioned hyperspace as a method for the destroyers to escape at need. Dont the battlecruisers have that as well? Also, I recall in the starcraft 2 cinematics, watching the battlecruisers use rather impressive point defense weaponry on small fry. They had a lot of guns blasting down a lot of zerg and such all around them. So it wouldnt be as easy as unleashing their complement of tie fighters and hanging back. Also, thats ignoring the battlecruisers wraith escorts. If star wars cant counter that stealth, they are utterly, utterly, screwed.

Ground defense. Those bunkers backed by siege tanks are an evil bastard to break through. With a solid wall of them, you will require air attacks to stand even a chance of breaking through, any ground troops would be obliterated.

Then you have the special forces. Ghosts/Specters. Say goodbye to all of your high ranked officers. Enjoy the 5 seconds you have to figure out what that red laser marker is for before your command center blows up. Cloaking is once again murder. Feel free to bunker down, a few nuclear launches will punch a hole in whatever is there, leaving an opening for the terrans to push through.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-05, 10:18 PM
Frankly, the tactical nukes launched by Ghosts are the least threatening thing ghosts can do...sure, OMG NUKES is scary, but it's another gameplay conceit that a nuke cannot be intercepted or shot down save by killing the ghost in time (and it's 10 game seconds anyways, so presumably much longer in 'realtime'). They might slip a nuke past the Star Wars ground-to-air defenses, but they're better off using their unbeatable stealth to turn the enemy command structure into swiss cheese.

JCarter426
2012-09-05, 10:23 PM
Yeah but the 3 million we are talking exponentially below what a real galactic conflict should be.
I want to stress the idiocy of the clone numbers, because... well, it doesn't deserve to be understated... at least not as much those numbers are. In Attack of the Clones it is said they have 200,000 units with a million more underway; 200,000 is fewer than the number of soldiers who died in the American Civil War. Even if you increase to the Expanded Universe's maximum of 3 million, it's still fewer than the total amount of soldiers involved in the civil war of one country on one planet 150 years ago.

The opening crawl states "several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic" and this is later said to be more than ten thousand. Ten thousand. For every enemy star system, the Republic has about 300 clones. Good luck, guys.

oblivion6
2012-09-05, 10:32 PM
in my opinion the clone army should be much bigger. the republic is simply too large for a meager army of 3 million clones to sufficiently defend

i think the clones tactics could also carry them through to victory. outside of the movies they do show an extraordinary grasp of strategy and battlefield tactics

Logic
2012-09-05, 10:36 PM
I want to stress the idiocy of the clone numbers, because... well, it doesn't deserve to be understated... at least not as much those numbers are. In Attack of the Clones it is said they have 200,000 units with a million more underway; 200,000 is fewer than the number of soldiers who died in the American Civil War. Even if you increase to the Expanded Universe's maximum of 3 million, it's still fewer than the total amount of soldiers involved in the civil war of one country on one planet 150 years ago.

The opening crawl states "several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic" and this is later said to be more than ten thousand. Ten thousand. For every enemy star system, the Republic has about 300 clones. Good luck, guys.
Sorry to nitpick, but I think this needs to be addressed.

The US military has about 3 million members of the armed forces, and about half of that is the Reserve component of its respective branch. The numbers are way too few, but 3 million is a sizable force for an Earth nation 150 years ago. Planetary size, 3 million is a drop in the bucket. Galactic size, you might as well not even bother putting up a resistance if your army is a meager 3 million strong.

If I am misinterpreting you, but 3 million troops at 150 years ago doesn't exactly add up.

Gnoman
2012-09-05, 10:56 PM
If I am misinterpreting you, but 3 million troops at 150 years ago doesn't exactly add up.

Counting both the Union and the Confederacy, there were three millions under arms during the American Civil War. Grant's Army of the Potomac alone had more than one million troops. That's clearly the war which he was referring to. In more recent wars, that's fairly small. Some countries had more than 3 million dead on the field during both World Wars, for example.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-05, 11:09 PM
Emphasis mine. Science Fiction is somewhat to blame for showing futuristic fusion drives that emit boatloads of radiation, when for the most part, those things would be less efficient than modern reactors.

Unless you are someone like Thomas Edison, and actively playing with something you have little understanding of.

I'm going to presume you didn't mean the guy who died of diabetes and probably were thinking of the Curies.

Yes obviously when entirely stupid, but even when radiation was new and wondrous and you could buy a water radiator to infuse your water with vita-power, people dying are the low end versus people exsposed. Two separated and sealed containers, as I said they probably got worse coming onto the station.

Mind you its not smart, but its into normal and tolerable levels of stupid not playing Russian Roulette with five bullets stupid.


Sorry to nitpick, but I think this needs to be addressed.

The US military has about 3 million members of the armed forces, and about half of that is the Reserve component of its respective branch. The numbers are way too few, but 3 million is a sizable force for an Earth nation 150 years ago. Planetary size, 3 million is a drop in the bucket. Galactic size, you might as well not even bother putting up a resistance if your army is a meager 3 million strong.

If I am misinterpreting you, but 3 million troops at 150 years ago doesn't exactly add up.

Those are the numbers though. Specifically 2.1 million Union soldiers and 1.06 Confederates. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War). In WWII I believe the figure is some 16 million, and counting men and women today we have some 100 million estimated fit for military service.

Our forces today are very different of course. It could be fair to call it a massive repair service for high power machines in some respects.


I want to stress the idiocy of the clone numbers, because... well, it doesn't deserve to be understated... at least not as much those numbers are. In Attack of the Clones it is said they have 200,000 units with a million more underway; 200,000 is fewer than the number of soldiers who died in the American Civil War. Even if you increase to the Expanded Universe's maximum of 3 million, it's still fewer than the total amount of soldiers involved in the civil war of one country on one planet 150 years ago.

The opening crawl states "several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic" and this is later said to be more than ten thousand. Ten thousand. For every enemy star system, the Republic has about 300 clones. Good luck, guys.

Well those systems can be argues as being just dumb in outsourcing their forces to. I somehow get the impression that nobody wants to admit it but for every storied out battle or mission of the Clone Wars there were ten "clones make raid to take out planetary shields, Navy bombards until surrender" in most unglorious fashion.

Forum Explorer
2012-09-05, 11:33 PM
I want to stress the idiocy of the clone numbers, because... well, it doesn't deserve to be understated... at least not as much those numbers are. In Attack of the Clones it is said they have 200,000 units with a million more underway; 200,000 is fewer than the number of soldiers who died in the American Civil War. Even if you increase to the Expanded Universe's maximum of 3 million, it's still fewer than the total amount of soldiers involved in the civil war of one country on one planet 150 years ago.

The opening crawl states "several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic" and this is later said to be more than ten thousand. Ten thousand. For every enemy star system, the Republic has about 300 clones. Good luck, guys.

I always had the head canon that the clones were backed up by planetary forces from across the Republic.

oblivion6
2012-09-05, 11:38 PM
I always had the head canon that the clones were backed up by planetary forces from across the Republic.

thats a good point. i never even considered that there might be local auxillery forces from the planets.

Terraoblivion
2012-09-06, 12:16 AM
In WWII I believe the figure is some 16 million

Well, if you only count allied military casualties...total estimated casualties start at 60 million for the entire war and goes up from there if wikipedia is even a little bit to be trust.

For other examples of wars with insane death tolls in the past there's the Taiping rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_rebellion) with an estimated 20 to 40 million dead, the Manchu conquest of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_conquest_of_China), the 30 years war and even something as early as the Yellow Turban rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Turban_Rebellion) is estimated to have had at least 3 million dead. Wikipedia has some general figures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll) in case you're interested.

So, yeah, three million clones on a galactic scale would matter roughly as much as Swedish volunteers to the SS did in the second world war, which is to say not a whole lot at all.

Kitten Champion
2012-09-06, 12:22 AM
I don't think marines are idiots, they're simply being depicted as devil-may-care. Life isn't of much value to the grunts of the SC universe, they all assume they're going to be sent to their grizzly death at any moment. The occupation of Terran Marine does not inspire cautious optimism about one's retirement goals.

Tychus Findlay and Jim Raynor are clearly not stupid men, more importantly, they're not fatalistic.

If it came to total war between the Republic and the Terran Dominion -- given the Dominion's track record and social Darwinist policies, I suspect they'd just set loose the Zerg on the Republic. It's what I would do.

While technically superior in most respects, the SW universe is static and even somewhat stale. Their strategies and general assumptions about war have been the same for tens of thousands of years. They're poorly structured to fight something with such fast-paced omnicidal tactics as our beloved Zerg.

The only reason the Terrans have survived them thus far has been their colonial mentality of evolve-or-die, a loose alliance with the Protoss, and callous indifference to killing the possibly infested. Terrans are generally spread out, almost universally militarized, and capable of re-establishing life anywhere given a moment's chance. They'd probably lose to the Zerg eventually, but it's sort of like playing Whack-A-Mole on a galactic scale.

mangosta71
2012-09-06, 12:31 AM
The presented scenario makes all the discussion of capital ships irrelevant. Fleet assets would not be included on the kind of small-scale confrontation that the OP described. One question that needs to be addressed, though - is this the military of Starcraft 1 or 2? Because there are some developments along the way that may make some differences. The later model siege tanks are even more lethal than their predecessors (longer range, higher rate of fire).

Of course, stealth gives this to the Dominion before we even consider any other factors. Wraiths absolutely demolish any air support that the Republic tries to call in, while Banshees annihilate the ground forces. Ghosts set up a perimeter and gun down anyone that tries to run. Dominion win, without the Republic even getting a chance to return fire. The marine/marauder/reaper force waltzes in and occupies the territory after the stealthers wipe the enemy out.

I'm going to presume you didn't mean the guy who died of diabetes and probably were thinking of the Curies.
Actually, Edison messed around with radiation, too. Specifically x-rays. When they were first discovered, he began a series of human experiments that ended up exposing his assistant to a lethal dose of radiation. He also fired x-rays into his own eyes to the point that he nearly went blind.

JCarter426
2012-09-06, 03:27 AM
3 million troops at 150 years ago doesn't exactly add up.
Numbers don't lie, man. I mean, real ones. Not Star Wars ones. And 7.

I always had the head canon that the clones were backed up by planetary forces from across the Republic.
Well, I always assumed the clones fought on the other side, but then Lucas changed his mind. Still, you're right - a Venator-class ship (the ones in Revenge of the Sith) have a crew of 7,400, with 2,000 troops. I'm not sure if the latter is included in the former, but either way the clones are seriously outnumbered. That's officers, technicians, and the like, which we never see in the prequels but were present in the original trilogy. For the record, the official word is "3 million (plus) does not represent the entire fighting force", so there must be non-clone soldiers, but they rarely talk about them and have never given any numbers on the matter - only the 3 million clones.

Well those systems can be argues as being just dumb in outsourcing their forces to. I somehow get the impression that nobody wants to admit it but for every storied out battle or mission of the Clone Wars there were ten "clones make raid to take out planetary shields, Navy bombards until surrender" in most unglorious fashion.
Maybe, but... the Venator-class ship has a complement of 2,000. With 3 million clones, that would mean the Republic has 1,500 ships to cover more than 20,000 star systems. The US has 11 aircraft carriers and only 23 coastal states.

Switzerland has roughly 134,000 active personnel and a population of almost 8 million, a little over 1.6% of the population. Coruscant has a population of supposedly - let's not get into that - 1 trillion (short scale). The clones are said to be a widespread police force, particularly on Coruscant. Surely the military forces in Republic space would come out to a greater percentage than neutral Switzerland's. yet 1.6% of the population of Coruscant alone is 16 billion. Now, even if you put every clone in the galaxy on Coruscant, even if 1.6% was considered "omnipresent" and "ubiquitous", you'd need 15.997 billion non-clones to reach that figure. So why are these called "the Clone Wars" and why do we never hear about the other 99%? And "99%" is me being generous.

Killer Angel
2012-09-06, 04:13 AM
Cloaking (both for wraiths and for ghosts) is a winning card.
And this:



Ground defense. Those bunkers backed by siege tanks are an evil bastard to break through. With a solid wall of them, you will require air attacks to stand even a chance of breaking through, any ground troops would be obliterated.

Terrans are masters in defensive combat. Their speciality is dig in, buildin' bunkers (which can be repaired in combat time), and protect them with turrets and siege tanks. And thay can do it quickly.
The army of the Republic fights with tactics and weapons similar to terrans, and it's not the best approach. To overcome that kind of resistance, you must have sheer numbers (zerg, with also special units breed to fight humans), or tech advantage (Protoss).

Some things could favor SW (lasers, for example), some other Terrans (cloaking, medic, superior armor for mooks)

Mercenary Pen
2012-09-06, 05:56 AM
Numbers don't lie, man. I mean, real ones. Not Star Wars ones. And 7.

Well, I always assumed the clones fought on the other side, but then Lucas changed his mind. Still, you're right - a Venator-class ship (the ones in Revenge of the Sith) have a crew of 7,400, with 2,000 troops. I'm not sure if the latter is included in the former, but either way the clones are seriously outnumbered. That's officers, technicians, and the like, which we never see in the prequels but were present in the original trilogy. For the record, the official word is "3 million (plus) does not represent the entire fighting force", so there must be non-clone soldiers, but they rarely talk about them and have never given any numbers on the matter - only the 3 million clones.

Maybe, but... the Venator-class ship has a complement of 2,000. With 3 million clones, that would mean the Republic has 1,500 ships to cover more than 20,000 star systems. The US has 11 aircraft carriers and only 23 coastal states.

You're assuming a uniform deployment of Venator-class star destroyers here, and we can't really say that was the case- considering that the GAR also included the Acclamator-class Assault ships that were used for the battle of Geonosis (and most other battles at the start of the war) and the later Victory-class Star Destroyer (though looking those up, they have even higher troop complements).


Looking at the Essential Guide to Warfare again, the initial order of 3 million clones was divided up into 20 rapid reaction sector armies of 150k each (though it is stated that these armies grew rapidly in size as later orders of clones were grown and entered the war). Indeed the implication is that the clones were being shuttled from one battlefield to the next without as much as a pause- with less strained sector armies lending troops to support those encountering more heavy resistance.

Referencing p97-99 here for anyone who wants to check my figures (though I understand page numbers may vary slightly if using digital formats).

JCarter426
2012-09-06, 06:16 AM
You're assuming a uniform deployment of Venator-class star destroyers here, and we can't really say that was the case- considering that the GAR also included the Acclamator-class Assault ships that were used for the battle of Geonosis (and most other battles at the start of the war) and the later Victory-class Star Destroyer (though looking those up, they have even higher troop complements).
Yeah, I figured it would average out. There are small fighter squadrons, but they seem to be mostly Jedi.

Looking at the Essential Guide to Warfare again, the initial order of 3 million clones was divided up into 20 rapid reaction sector armies of 150k each (though it is stated that these armies grew rapidly in size as later orders of clones were grown and entered the war). Indeed the implication is that the clones were being shuttled from one battlefield to the next without as much as a pause- with less strained sector armies lending troops to support those encountering more heavy resistance.
Even so, the scale is far from galactic. Recruit a thousand troops from each star system and you have over 10 million right there. And this is Star Wars - there are a thousand mercenaries in every spaceport at any given moment.

Devonix
2012-09-06, 06:26 AM
The Clone army was just a slapped together in about a year, military force trying to replace the real army that had been disbanded.

Would much prefer either the
Republic Army which had troops capable of taking on Sith in hand to hand and wining.

Or the Imperial Army

for both armies we have, No clones, better training, actual years of academy and real life experience, and larger numbers.

Traab
2012-09-06, 06:59 AM
Frankly, the tactical nukes launched by Ghosts are the least threatening thing ghosts can do...sure, OMG NUKES is scary, but it's another gameplay conceit that a nuke cannot be intercepted or shot down save by killing the ghost in time (and it's 10 game seconds anyways, so presumably much longer in 'realtime'). They might slip a nuke past the Star Wars ground-to-air defenses, but they're better off using their unbeatable stealth to turn the enemy command structure into swiss cheese.

I dont see why you would think the nukes are less scary to the ground troops. First of all, I dont recall seeing many weapons of mass destruction other than the death star and orbital bombardments, so stealthed ghosts painting unfortunately close together important structures with lasers would be a viable tactic. Especially since star wars doesnt really have a missile defense system in place, as they dont use a lot of them. They have shields to block them, not weapons to shoot them down. And a stealthed ghost will be able to take down those shields first if need be.

Really, the best option would be this. Ghost assassinates all the off duty officers first. This is to make them less likely to be missed before he is done. Then take down the on duty officers. Then the shields, then paint some critical targets while everyone is trying to figure out whats happening. When the blasts go off you will have a gutted command structure, a gaping hole in your defenses, and no idea whats going on or what to do about it.

Hell, if the ghost has some explosives with him he can set to a trigger there would be no warning at all unless a dead officer gets spotted before the boom. He paints the target, then a few seconds before impact he triggers the explosives he has setup at the shield emitter. Everyone turns to look at that rubble just as the missile comes in and BOOOM! They try to report to the officers on duty, only to find dead bodies. They try to wake up the off duty officers, more dead bodies. At this point the terrans are steam rolling their way into the republic encampment, slaughtering everything that moves. Checkmate.

JCarter426
2012-09-06, 07:08 AM
The Clone army was just a slapped together in about a year, military force trying to replace the real army that had been disbanded.
It wasn't, though. It was ordered 10 years in advance, and they only had 200,000 at the start. An army of 2 million invaded Poland.

Devonix
2012-09-06, 07:10 AM
It wasn't, though. It was ordered 10 years in advance, and they only had 200,000 at the start. An army of 2 million invaded Poland.

I'm not talking about the creation of the clones. I'm talking about forming them into an actual millitary with a command structure, supplies and such.

JCarter426
2012-09-06, 07:29 AM
I don't see the point. All 200,000 of them were present at the battle after roughly an hour. It then grew to 3 million in the course of a year, yes, but that doesn't explain why anyone ever thought 3 million clones would be enough to defend a galaxy. The German Army grew from practically nonexistent in 1935 to a total of 15 million in the course of ten years, and most of it in the first year and a half.

Devonix
2012-09-06, 08:05 AM
I don't see the point. All 200,000 of them were present at the battle after roughly an hour. It then grew to 3 million in the course of a year, yes, but that doesn't explain why anyone ever thought 3 million clones would be enough to defend a galaxy. The German Army grew from practically nonexistent in 1935 to a total of 15 million in the course of ten years, and most of it in the first year and a half.

It might be that Scifi Writers have no sense of scale ;)

LaughingGnoll
2012-09-06, 08:36 AM
The presented scenario makes all the discussion of capital ships irrelevant. Fleet assets would not be included on the kind of small-scale confrontation that the OP described. One question that needs to be addressed, though - is this the military of Starcraft 1 or 2? Because there are some developments along the way that may make some differences. The later model siege tanks are even more lethal than their predecessors (longer range, higher rate of fire).

We might as well assume that both sets of technologies are available. The Starcraft 2 campaign showed that the Dominion was using a mix of old and new technologies (we saw some Firebats guarding the secret laboratory on Castanar in Piercing the Shroud, still saw wraiths picking up the alarm call after the timer runs out on Korhal in Media Blitz, but the Marauder Death Squad in Train Robbery and the development of the Thor as a Dominion weapon point to new technology). While the multiplayer in Starcraft 2 is certainly separate from Starcraft 1, the campaign and lore seem to show that old technology isn't being thrown away, but new technology is constantly being added in.

Also, I wouldn't discount a fight between capital ships or aerial units such as the ARC-170 (SW) and the Wraiths or Vikings (SC). Both have been shown to be capable of flying and attacking within an atmosphere, so it's highly probable that some kind of aerial engagement would occur, at least where both armies would see the potential in having aerial superiority, especially since the Terrans have strong Air-to-Ground capabilities in the Banshee/Wraith, and eliminating Medivacs that can heal and transport units would probably be a high priority for the Clone Army.


I'm not talking about the creation of the clones. I'm talking about forming them into an actual millitary with a command structure, supplies and such.

They were (apparently) combat ready as soon as Yoda went to Kamino to gather forces for the invasion of Geonosis. Complete with rifles, rockets, LA-ATi Gunships, several AT-TE tanks, and all the fancy laser-emplacements used to bring down the Separatist transports. And given that they seemed to be winning most of the major engagements in the war (Geonosis, Kashyyyk, and Utapau), it wouldn't be fair to say that they aren't a proper army just because of how quickly they were brought together. There seemed to be an in place, ready chain of command already at the Battle of Geonosis, where we saw Clone Troopers answering to Jedi without hesitation, and the one clone who was overseeing/commanding the general battle from the far back (the one who ordered the laser emplacements to fire on the Separatist ships).

I don't think that non-human life forms should be considered in this particular arrangement. Although we do see Republic forces bolstered by the locals frequently, that would be dependent on which planet the fight was taking place on. We only saw Wookies helping the Republic on Kashyyyk, and the Pau'an (who were only mentioned) only took part in defending Utapau. Even then, not all of the non-human life in the Galaxy doesn't side with the Republic. The Geonosians were allies of the Separatists, and the Hutts seem to answer to no one but themselves.

I'm curious as to the mechanical aspect, since aerial combat seems to have run its course in favor of the Terrans due to cloaking, although it would seem that the Republic capital ships have (arguably) a much larger firepower at their disposal. Infantry is probably also in favor of the Terrans, as the CMC Armor used by the Marines, and the heavier versions used by Marauders and Firebats, seem to be resistant to Protoss laser-based weaponry, and small arms fire from other guns, though Hydralisk spines can puncture the suit quite easily.

Anyways, I agree with someone who earlier said that a comparison between the AT-TE and the Goliath wasn't a good comparison. While speeder-bikes and Vultures are comparable, I would think that the Thor or the Siege Tank are better comparison points for AT-TE opponents. The AT-TE is theoretically the same height as a Thor, although it's longer, and therefore the Thor is smaller. However, I'm curious about pitting these two against each other. The Thor is much more maneuverable than the AT-TE, and takes less people to operate. While the Thor only has one operator sitting in the cockpit, the AT-TE takes a 7 man crew to operate at its full potential, which includes the several weapons positions. In comparative firepower, the Thor is supposedly able of making short work of enemy Terran Siege Tank lines, or at least that's what its purpose is supposed to be, while the AT-TE is supposed to be a rugged tank which is heavily armored, although it is inaccurate and slow to move.

The Siege Tank in Tank Mode probably wouldn't provide much of a threat to Star Wars forces, though Siege Mode would be devastating to the clone tactic of charging at their enemies. This would probably be the weapon that turns the tide, since as far as I can tell, the Republic doesn't really use any field artillery that could match a Siege Tank, and although the tank has an infamous weakness to aerial forces, it doesn't seem likely that the Republic could gain air superiority.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 08:38 AM
I dont see why you would think the nukes are less scary to the ground troops. First of all, I dont recall seeing many weapons of mass destruction other than the death star and orbital bombardments, so stealthed ghosts painting unfortunately close together important structures with lasers would be a viable tactic. Especially since star wars doesnt really have a missile defense system in place, as they dont use a lot of them. They have shields to block them, not weapons to shoot them down. And a stealthed ghost will be able to take down those shields first if need be.
.

I was speaking more in relative terms. A nuclear missile could at least be shot down, or blocked by shields. The cloaked Ghost is utterly untouchable as long as his generator holds out, and if he's already inside sniping everyone in sight at will, dropping the nuke is just icing on the delicious death cake and/or a middle finger shoved in the Republic's eye. It'd be more valuable as a terror/intimidation weapon ('Guys, did you hear about the 115th? The enemy wiped the entire division out, and their support, with a single bomb!"), than for the actual damage it'd cause, since all it really does is save the infiltrating agent time and ammo.

Traab
2012-09-06, 08:49 AM
I was speaking more in relative terms. A nuclear missile could at least be shot down, or blocked by shields. The cloaked Ghost is utterly untouchable as long as his generator holds out, and if he's already inside sniping everyone in sight at will, dropping the nuke is just icing on the delicious death cake and/or a middle finger shoved in the Republic's eye. It'd be more valuable as a terror/intimidation weapon ('Guys, did you hear about the 115th? The enemy wiped the entire division out, and their support, with a single bomb!"), than for the actual damage it'd cause, since all it really does is save the infiltrating agent time and ammo.

True, but there are limits to stealth. A timed limit to how long they can stay invisible. Sure theoretically they could send in a squad of ghosts with backpacks full of ammo and let them kill the entire base, but in reality it would be easier to send in a surgical strike, take out the shield emitter, and blow up any defensive structures (or barracks if they are in a single gathering area) then let the marines do their thing.

Also, it has a higher chance of maintaining the mystery of how this happened for future engagements. Someone is going to notice if invisible people are wiping out 100x their numbers and word of stealth soldier units will leak out. If their only warning is the explosion of the shield emitter, followed by (insert group of structures here) then they wont be expecting invisible snipers next time.

mangosta71
2012-09-06, 09:22 AM
If nobody survives to tell the tale, it doesn't matter how you kill them. Cloaked ghosts or banshees blow the comm relay first and then slaughter everyone at their leisure. The people on the scene will notice that they're getting wiped out by things they can't see, but the overall army only knows that a unit suddenly went silent. They send a team to investigate and find corpses strewn among rubble. That team then becomes a secondary pile of corpses. The high command still doesn't know that the forces being sent to the area are getting wiped out by an invisible enemy.


Also, I wouldn't discount a fight between capital ships or aerial units such as the ARC-170 (SW) and the Wraiths or Vikings (SC). Both have been shown to be capable of flying and attacking within an atmosphere, so it's highly probable that some kind of aerial engagement would occur, at least where both armies would see the potential in having aerial superiority, especially since the Terrans have strong Air-to-Ground capabilities in the Banshee/Wraith, and eliminating Medivacs that can heal and transport units would probably be a high priority for the Clone Army.
I got the impression that there would be at most a squadron each of wraiths and banshees (12-15), a squad of ghosts (8-10), a company of siege tanks (12-16), and a company of infantry (150) on the Dominion side, facing equivalent Republic numbers. (And yes, I know those numbers are pretty big in game terms, but in reality that's a small force.) My point was that battlecruisers and Star Destroyers would not typically be included in the troop complements that would be engaging in that situation. Of course, even if they are, squadrons of wraiths will annihilate capital warships and all their fighters just as easily as the banshees will mop up the ground forces.

polity4life
2012-09-06, 09:30 AM
In regards to the Grand Army's numbers, we really need to consider the ambiguity of the word "unit" as presented in the movie. It really isn't made clear what a unit is. The Kaminoans call refer to the clones as both "units" and "battalions" and even some of the literature suggests that these "units" were of some number greater than 1.

If we're talking about these units as battalions and battalions are some number between 300-1200 (per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battalion)) then the initial shipment of 1,200,000 units would equal anywhere from 360,000,000 to 1,440,000,000 elite shock troopers, which the clones were made to be. Those numbers look to be more on the galactic scale than merely 3,000,000 soldiers.

And let's look at another question: Are the clones the only component of the GAR? This was sort of touched on already but the Republic's constituent planets did raise armies and The New Essential Chronology even explicitly states that a draft was enacted during the Clone Wars. That means the teeming trillions to quadrillion were eligible to join the clones in defending and reuniting the Republic.

Note: All of my Star Wars-related stuff comes from Wookiepedia, namely the article on the Grand Army of the Republic (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic). I'm not sure if Wookiepedia has any cache in these debates but it's what I used. :smallyuk:

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-06, 10:14 AM
In regards to the Grand Army's numbers, we really need to consider the ambiguity of the word "unit" as presented in the movie. It really isn't made clear what a unit is. The Kaminoans call refer to the clones as both "units" and "battalions" and even some of the literature suggests that these "units" were of some number greater than 1.

If we're talking about these units as battalions and battalions are some number between 300-1200 (per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battalion)) then the initial shipment of 1,200,000 units would equal anywhere from 360,000,000 to 1,440,000,000 elite shock troopers, which the clones were made to be. Those numbers look to be more on the galactic scale than merely 3,000,000 soldiers.

And let's look at another question: Are the clones the only component of the GAR? This was sort of touched on already but the Republic's constituent planets did raise armies and The New Essential Chronology even explicitly states that a draft was enacted during the Clone Wars. That means the teeming trillions to quadrillion were eligible to join the clones in defending and reuniting the Republic.

Note: All of my Star Wars-related stuff comes from Wookiepedia, namely the article on the Grand Army of the Republic (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic). I'm not sure if Wookiepedia has any cache in these debates but it's what I used. :smallyuk:

Wookiepedia also reports most sources took "unit" to mean individual clones. This apparently includes Kenobi in the novelization, which would be top the the canonical ranking system given that the film doesn't specify, taking it to mean 1 unit, 1 clone.

And 1.4 billion is certainly a better number, though arguably still perhaps modest as a galaxy should have uncounted trillions. The real problem though is that even being good speculation, its well speculation.

And for there being any sort of speculation I think rules out a weight of numbers kind of argument, which is why I brought it up.

LaughingGnoll
2012-09-06, 10:22 AM
Wookiepedia also reports most sources took "unit" to mean individual clones. This apparently includes Kenobi in the novelization, which would be top the the canonical ranking system given that the film doesn't specify, taking it to mean 1 unit, 1 clone.

And 1.4 billion is certainly a better number, though arguably still perhaps modest as a galaxy should have uncounted trillions. The real problem though is that even being good speculation, its well speculation.

And for there being any sort of speculation I think rules out a weight of numbers kind of argument, which is why I brought it up.

Well another way to look at it is at pure logistics. How long could each side afford to keep fighting in the case of a stalemate? As far as we know from non-film canon, The Republic has entire planets which are devoted to the production of ships, armor, and the like. The Terran Dominion has fewer planets under its control than the Republic, though the direct amount or location of production facilities are left unknown, with the exception of the Valhalla Facilities, which were responsible for the Odin project.

hamishspence
2012-09-06, 01:27 PM
Unfortunately, it's still canon. Even if I think it's a bit silly, it's still what's given as their power output, and no official source has said otherwise. I can't say "This isn't canon" because officially it is. If we throw it out, then why not throw out anything that isn't directly seen on screen?

One could use what's seen in the books after an order to fire turbolasers at full power is given- acre-area chunks of forest being destroyed.

Using "the most consistant power level" might be more reliable a gauge than using power levels claimed but inconsistant with the rest of the setting.




Maybe, but... the Venator-class ship has a complement of 2,000. With 3 million clones, that would mean the Republic has 1,500 ships to cover more than 20,000 star systems. The US has 11 aircraft carriers and only 23 coastal states.


On the 3 million clones- that's the Army- it doesn't count the clones of the Navy.

In the aforementioned TEGTW, 20 Acclamators were produced initially (took the clones to Geonosis) and 1000 were ordered immediately afterward. The Venators appeared after that.

Tavar
2012-09-06, 01:31 PM
Note that there is another explanation for the clone numbers: those are the army of the republic. It doesn't factor into the armed forces held by the individual member states of the republic. Not a perfect fix(the numbers are still hilariously low), but it's at least a bit better.

hamishspence
2012-09-06, 01:34 PM
And that's pretty much how Guide to Warfare resolves it- saying that many battles in the Clone Wars had no clones- and no droids- just the armed forces of the planets, attacking one another.

Kinslayer
2012-09-06, 01:38 PM
Cloaking (both for wraiths and for ghosts) is a winning card.

I don't know, it's appearntly detectable by SciFi Sonar TM... To be fair, I have no idea what Star Wars Sensors look like, outside of starships, or if they even have portable sensors. :smallconfused:

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 01:41 PM
I don't know, it's appearntly detectable by SciFi Sonar TM... To be fair, I have no idea what Star Wars Sensors look like, outside of starships, or if they even have portable sensors. :smallconfused:

According, again, to Wookiepedia, SW only has one type of sensor that can detect things using their cloaking device, and it's both expensive and very power-hungry:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cloaking_device

And something about one random admiral in the post-RotJ era figuring out you could track them via magnetic macguffin waves.

Reverent-One
2012-09-06, 01:45 PM
According, again, to Wookiepedia, SW only has one type of sensor that can detect things using their cloaking device, and it's both expensive and very power-hungry:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cloaking_device


Star Wars cloaking has basically nothing in common with Starcraft cloaking though.

hamishspence
2012-09-06, 01:51 PM
"Stygium cloaking devices" seem to be pretty similar- not double-blind, small enough to fit on a TIE, etc.

Traab
2012-09-06, 02:01 PM
According, again, to Wookiepedia, SW only has one type of sensor that can detect things using their cloaking device, and it's both expensive and very power-hungry:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cloaking_device

And something about one random admiral in the post-RotJ era figuring out you could track them via magnetic macguffin waves.

So, theoretically, they have cloak breakers, but its a rare device, not commonly used, and it isnt something that would likely be always on due to power constraints? Hmm, Opening battles go straight to the terrans, later battles, once word of heavy stealth units leaks out, things get a bit dicier. Most likely the next battle they break out anticloak devices, and the overconfident wraiths (and maybe ghosts, depending on how this works) get slaughtered. Then they start finding ways to get around said anti cloak device. Ghosts DO have the lockdown ability. They can shut down electronic units like seige tanks and such, probably could short out the antistealth device if they can find it.

Mando Knight
2012-09-06, 02:13 PM
I saw a few people asking about the numbers issue. Umm can we be sure the clones are going to have a numerical advantage?

Just reading up there's apparently quite a bit of discrepancy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic#Numbers) on the actual clonepower of the so-call grand army. Including some stupid small numbers in the mere millions.

The line that canon seems to be drawing towards these days is 3 million + clones,
Ryan Kaufman (co-author of the Guide to the GAR and former LucasArts community supervisor) said that Lucas Licensing did not want an actual definitive number of troops to be set by the book.

Personally, I like to think that the Clone Wars were fought by a few thousand Jedi and jillions of clones against bazillions of battle droids. Makes for a better setting (in terms of "A long time ago, in the Grim Darkness of the Past, in a Galaxy Far, Far Away, there was only WAR") when the author doesn't need to track down the exact logistics of every single unit before writing a new piece.

hamishspence
2012-09-06, 02:40 PM
The Essential Guide to Warfare does leave it grey- saying that "Soon, the number of 3 million was reached, and that number grew rapidly as more clones were grown and entered the war".

Plus there's the clones for the navy on top of that.

At the time GAR was written, authors like Stover were being told "yes- 1 clone unit= 1 clone warrior" so that's the way they wrote it- speaking of "1.2 million clones" consistently.

R.A Salvatore's AOTC novelization
Matt Stover's Shatterpoint
Steven Barnes' The Cestus Deception
James Luceno's Labyrinth of Evil.

In the TCW TV series, "buying 5 million more clones" is treated as a big deal- something that the Republic will have difficulty affording.

JCarter426
2012-09-06, 04:50 PM
According, again, to Wookiepedia, SW only has one type of sensor that can detect things using their cloaking device, and it's both expensive and very power-hungry:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cloaking_device
What about Jedi?

On the 3 million clones- that's the Army- it doesn't count the clones of the Navy.
There is no "Grand Navy of the Republic". In the days of the Empire, the stormtroopers are more analogous to the Marine Corps. There is a Republic Navy, but I've already included it in my estimate of the size of its fleet; they are the 7,400 (or maybe it's 5,400) per ship that aren't clones. You can't say there are 3 million other clones in the Republic Navy, and 3 million other clones in the Republic Air Force, and so on, because the initial order of 3 million clones is a set number. Now, as we have established, it's possible there are non-clone military forces, but to reach any reasonable level they would outnumber the clones 99 to 1. And the whole point of the Republic taking the clones was they were desperate.

Note that there is another explanation for the clone numbers: those are the army of the republic. It doesn't factor into the armed forces held by the individual member states of the republic. Not a perfect fix(the numbers are still hilariously low), but it's at least a bit better.
Look at the "security volunteers" in Phantom Menace - utterly useless. I suppose it's possible things are different on other planets, but then why do any of them need the Republic? And why would they have standing armies if they haven't had a war in a thousand years? Granted the Trade Federation was part of the Republic and had an army for some reason, but they're on the other side. I'd say ten thousand star systems that left are more likely to have military forces than the ones that stayed behind.

Granted if they started recruiting right away they could, as I said, surpass the 3 million clones with relative ease. But why would someone order only 3 million clones in the first place? And why do we never see the other guys?

In the TCW TV series, "buying 5 million more clones" is treated as a big deal- something that the Republic will have difficulty affording.
Is it? How late into the war?

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 05:04 PM
What about Jedi?


That same article says trained force users can detect cloaked things, though that's frustratingly vague on if that means 'any trained force user', or if force users can be specifically trained to detect cloaked enemies. On one hand, Jedi are the clone commanders, so they're going to be the targets of the Ghosts right off...on the other hand, that precognition is going to be mighty handy for telling them they need to duck...NOW. Still won't let them hit back, particularly against long-range snipers, but they will be hard to eliminate.

Oh hey, that's another gigantic can of worms we can open up...does the Force and Starcraft's Psionics cross-interact, or should we play it safe and say there is no interplay between the two?

GolemsVoice
2012-09-06, 05:41 PM
I'd say they are similiar enough to interact. Both are natural gifts that can't be used unless you've been born with them, they are not common, can and must be refined through training and enhance many of the users abilities or give them new ones like precognition or telepathy.

So I'd wager a trained ghost could see through a Jedi mind trick, and a trained Jedi could at least see a cloaked ghost by it's mental signature.

Traab
2012-09-06, 07:20 PM
I'd say they are similiar enough to interact. Both are natural gifts that can't be used unless you've been born with them, they are not common, can and must be refined through training and enhance many of the users abilities or give them new ones like precognition or telepathy.

So I'd wager a trained ghost could see through a Jedi mind trick, and a trained Jedi could at least see a cloaked ghost by it's mental signature.

Im not sure. Ghosts are trained at the psychic arts. I would think that hiding your mind from other ghosts would be a reasonable thing for them to learn. I can understand the jedi getting that force precog as they get ready to fire though, thats unconnected to the ghosts abilities. So yeah, hard as hell to get a sniper kill unless the jedi is already very busy fighting for his life. Heh, makes me wonder if the jedi ran into some spectres they would start screaming about sith armies or something. Those are some aggressive abilities they have. A mind blast, an energy drain, and just their normal mentalities.

GolemsVoice
2012-09-06, 07:26 PM
Well, when I said that a Jedi could read a Ghost's mind, I was just stating a general possibility. I'm sure Ghosts learn a lot of mental defence tricks, as do Jedi, but I was talking about the general ability of the Force/Psychic abilities to affect each other.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 08:37 PM
Jedi just seem to have an uncanny ability to 'sense' the presence other Jedi/Sith at close range, as well, completely separate from their mind-reading, so it's possible ghosts would 'ping' on that from their Psi.

As well, I'd actually expect that 'hiding' yourself from other ghosts' Psi sense would explicitly not be in the Ghost curriculum, to prevent a Jason Bourne situation. Spectres and/or rogue ghosts would have to work it out themselves, if it's even possible.

Traab
2012-09-06, 08:49 PM
Jedi just seem to have an uncanny ability to 'sense' the presence other Jedi/Sith at close range, as well, completely separate from their mind-reading, so it's possible ghosts would 'ping' on that from their Psi.

As well, I'd actually expect that 'hiding' yourself from other ghosts' Psi sense would explicitly not be in the Ghost curriculum, to prevent a Jason Bourne situation. Spectres and/or rogue ghosts would have to work it out themselves, if it's even possible.

I will admit I havent read any starcraft books, but considering raynor has access to ghosts in starcraft 1 and 2, you would think it would be a good idea to try to train their agents to hide from the other side even better. Of course, that being said, im pretty sure in starcraft 2 we see tosh detect nova or something of the sort. So maybe not.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-06, 09:18 PM
I will admit I havent read any starcraft books, but considering raynor has access to ghosts in starcraft 1 and 2, you would think it would be a good idea to try to train their agents to hide from the other side even better. Of course, that being said, im pretty sure in starcraft 2 we see tosh detect nova or something of the sort. So maybe not.

The SCWiki says:


Ghosts have the ability to read minds[1] but generally do not have the ability to block thoughts; ghosts find each other very easy to read.[3] Ghosts and weaker psychics can detect other sources of psionic power.

In SC2, you only get ghosts if you cooperate with Terra, so they're official Dominion troops on-loan, so to speak. As far as 'rebel' ghosts in SC1, canonically those are supposed to be very rare due to the implantation of their neural inhibitors, so I'd think it'd be more danger than it's worth to train your own ghosts to hide from each other to better hunt existing renegades...who, if they themselves went renegade, would do so with the ability to hide themselves from Ghosts.

JCarter426
2012-09-07, 12:16 AM
Jedi just seem to have an uncanny ability to 'sense' the presence other Jedi/Sith at close range, as well, completely separate from their mind-reading, so it's possible ghosts would 'ping' on that from their Psi.
Not just other Force users - it can extend to life in general, and even droids, as described in this quote:

There is much energy in the room beyond... yet it stems from nothing that lives...
So even if you were to argue that a life form from another universe wouldn't be connected to the Force, and thus wouldn't register as a living thing on a Jedi's Forceometer... that would just make them stand out even more. Granted that quote is from one of the games, but Yoda does talk about the Force existing in rocks and trees and such, implying he can sense it.

So basically what I'm saying is if you assume there is no interplay, it can get even more complicated. :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 06:03 AM
Is it? How late into the war?

Nobody knows- since the TCW timeline hasn't been nailed down yet.

The Navy has clone crewers, marines , gunners, officers, fighter pilots, and so forth. The layout of the "3 million clone army" focuses entirely on the army itself- ground squads.

There was an initial order of 3 million, 10 years before the war broke out- but given that the guy who placed the order- a Jedi named Sifo-Dyas, was killed right afterward- and the clone number grows rapidly past the 3 million figure according to Guide to Warfare- this strongly suggests other orders were placed immediately after Sifo-Dyas's death.

He probably foresaw trouble in future and the need for an army- but not the sheer scale of the trouble- and that the army would turn out to be massively overstretched.

LaughingGnoll
2012-09-07, 08:43 AM
What about Jedi?

There is no "Grand Navy of the Republic". In the days of the Empire, the stormtroopers are more analogous to the Marine Corps. There is a Republic Navy, but I've already included it in my estimate of the size of its fleet; they are the 7,400 (or maybe it's 5,400) per ship that aren't clones. You can't say there are 3 million other clones in the Republic Navy, and 3 million other clones in the Republic Air Force, and so on, because the initial order of 3 million clones is a set number. Now, as we have established, it's possible there are non-clone military forces, but to reach any reasonable level they would outnumber the clones 99 to 1. And the whole point of the Republic taking the clones was they were desperate.

Just to clarify, there actually is a Republic Navy. It refers to the space-combat forces of the Republic, and while it was often used in conjunction with the Grand Army, the Navy was it's own distinct organization (for lack of a better word).

In Battlefront II's campaign, we hear the clone comment that many ground troops were pressed into serving as pilots in space battles, so I think that the forces could be counted separately, though that just brings up even more confusion about clone numbers.


That same article says trained force users can detect cloaked things, though that's frustratingly vague on if that means 'any trained force user', or if force users can be specifically trained to detect cloaked enemies. On one hand, Jedi are the clone commanders, so they're going to be the targets of the Ghosts right off...on the other hand, that precognition is going to be mighty handy for telling them they need to duck...NOW. Still won't let them hit back, particularly against long-range snipers, but they will be hard to eliminate.

Oh hey, that's another gigantic can of worms we can open up...does the Force and Starcraft's Psionics cross-interact, or should we play it safe and say there is no interplay between the two?

I don't even think it would need to specifically limited to cloaked beings. It would seem that it almost acts like some sort of Spider-Sense, alerting the Jedi in question to any sort of danger. Yoda didn't have any (logical) reason to suspect that his Clone escort on Kashyyyk would try to kill him, and yet he still noticed something and killed them before they could attack him. So instead of specifically finding a cloaked Ghost, a Jedi should be able to at least know that some being is about to attack him from a given direction. While it doesn't find the Ghost right away, or give the Jedi some kind of hazy outline to attack, it at least would keep a Jedi alive long enough to perhaps throw a Force Push in that direction to buy time and figure out what's going on.

I would think that Psionics and the Force could interact. We know in SW canon that the Force is some universal ... force (duh >.< ) that can be manipulated through people are born with a significant midichlorian count and receive proper training. Though we do see that raw talent can be displayed without training through young Anakin Skywalker, at least according to Qui-Gon's observations, I'd say that he's more the exception than the rule. Psionics in Starcraft work similarly, we just don't have a specific name for what gives beings that specific power. SOMETHING about protoss physiology just allows them to manifest powers through the Khala, and when that something is removed, they can manifest powers through the Void. This something could be like midichlorians, though Terran lore seems to focus on the brain as the Terrazine gas and Jorium minerals both have effects on the brain, while the Protoss either keep or cut off their "nerve apendages".
Arguably, they are even more similar than discussed before. The Protoss are split similarly to the Force users in Star Wars. There's a Light and Dark side, the Khala and the Void. The Jedi and the Sith, the Khalai and the Nezarim. Each side has it's own potential powers that the other can't use. Sith can use Force Lightning, Stalkers (and Zeratul) can blink. Jedi can use Affect Mind (the infamous Jedi Mind trick) and High Templar can use Psionic Storm. It could very well be that they are references to the same cosmic power, just used differently and with different techniques involved (not to say that Starcraft ripped off Star Wars or something. It's just noticeable that there are similarities).

I wonder if a lightsaber could be used to block the non-laser ammunition that the Terrans use. We've only seen lightsabers used to block/reflect laser fire, we've never seen it against other types of ammunition except for Jango Fett using his flamethrower on Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones. Would attempting to block incoming Gauss Rifle fire with a lightsaber melt the metal ammunition? Would it turn larger caliber shots into shrapnel?

mangosta71
2012-09-07, 09:13 AM
There was an initial order of 3 million, 10 years before the war broke out- but given that the guy who placed the order- a Jedi named Sifo-Dyas, was killed right afterward- and the clone number grows rapidly past the 3 million figure according to Guide to Warfare- this strongly suggests other orders were placed immediately after Sifo-Dyas's death.
Nope. Movie canon trumps any other source. The Kaminoans would have mentioned anything that came in after the initial order in AotC. They say that there was one order. For three million clones. I don't care what any other source says; AotC is the final word on clone numbers.

I don't even think it would need to specifically limited to cloaked beings. It would seem that it almost acts like some sort of Spider-Sense, alerting the Jedi in question to any sort of danger. Yoda didn't have any (logical) reason to suspect that his Clone escort on Kashyyyk would try to kill him, and yet he still noticed something and killed them before they could attack him. So instead of specifically finding a cloaked Ghost, a Jedi should be able to at least know that some being is about to attack him from a given direction. While it doesn't find the Ghost right away, or give the Jedi some kind of hazy outline to attack, it at least would keep a Jedi alive long enough to perhaps throw a Force Push in that direction to buy time and figure out what's going on.
Yoda is an exception to the rule. RotS shows him staggering as the other Jedi started to die - he knew something ****ed up was going on. He's also the only Jedi that wasn't cut down by the clone escorts. So this "all Jedi can sense everything in their environment and can never be taken by surprise" thing is a load of horse manure. A typical Jedi can't. Even most of the members of the Jedi Council, supposedly the strongest practitioners of the era, can't. Andd bear in mind that the Jedi being slaughtered were in combat theaters, so they had reason to be more than usually alert when they were taken by surprise. Someone who's relaxing at base, that has no reason to have his guard up, is going to be easy pickings.

I wonder if a lightsaber could be used to block the non-laser ammunition that the Terrans use. We've only seen lightsabers used to block/reflect laser fire, we've never seen it against other types of ammunition except for Jango Fett using his flamethrower on Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones. Would attempting to block incoming Gauss Rifle fire with a lightsaber melt the metal ammunition? Would it turn larger caliber shots into shrapnel?
A major difference that you seem to be forgetting is that Terran marines fire in bursts (with the capability to go full auto) instead of individual bolts (at a ridiculously low rate of fire). Each bullet in the burst travels on a separate trajectory due to recoil, rifling, gravity, etc. The Jedi would have to move his saber even faster to deflect each bullet individually. This is compounded when multiple marines are firing at once. And even more so if they're attacking from different angles. So even if bullets can be reflected (which I doubt, though I'll grant that it might be possible to block them), two marines still cut a Jedi to ribbons.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-07, 09:14 AM
Man, I want to write this fanfiction now, or at least read it.

LaughingGnoll
2012-09-07, 09:19 AM
Man, I want to write this fanfiction now, or at least read it.

I'd write it if I wasn't working on another project at the moment.

Fanfiction.net returns only three results for that specific crossover, so apparently it hasn't been explored that often.

Glad I could be an inspiration though. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 09:55 AM
Nope. Movie canon trumps any other source. The Kaminoans would have mentioned anything that came in after the initial order in AotC. They say that there was one order. For three million clones. I don't care what any other source says; AotC is the final word on clone numbers.

Incorrect- the Kaminoans never use the number "three million". They say "200,000 units now, with another million well on the way".

BRC
2012-09-07, 10:28 AM
A major difference that you seem to be forgetting is that Terran marines fire in bursts (with the capability to go full auto) instead of individual bolts (at a ridiculously low rate of fire). Each bullet in the burst travels on a separate trajectory due to recoil, rifling, gravity, etc. The Jedi would have to move his saber even faster to deflect each bullet individually. This is compounded when multiple marines are firing at once. And even more so if they're attacking from different angles. So even if bullets can be reflected (which I doubt, though I'll grant that it might be possible to block them), two marines still cut a Jedi to ribbons.

Not to mention Firebats or Mauraders, who would destroy Jedi. Lightsaber blocking a Maurader's grenade would just earn the Jedi a detonation in the face, and it's kind of difficult to dodge a flamethrower.

Traab
2012-09-07, 10:41 AM
Not to mention Firebats or Mauraders, who would destroy Jedi. Lightsaber blocking a Maurader's grenade would just earn the Jedi a detonation in the face, and it's kind of difficult to dodge a flamethrower.

Force push would work on both attacks though. Shove that grenade out of the way, deflect the flames, etc etc etc. I will admit that I hadnt considered jedi in my initial judgement. But thats because I jumped straight to galactic EMPIRE military, not republic. I didnt pay attention to that part of the challenge.

BRC
2012-09-07, 10:47 AM
Force push would work on both attacks though. Shove that grenade out of the way, deflect the flames, etc etc etc. I will admit that I hadnt considered jedi in my initial judgement. But thats because I jumped straight to galactic EMPIRE military, not republic. I didnt pay attention to that part of the challenge.

True, Force Push would let them bounce grenades back. Firebats are fireproof, but it could hold their flames at bay.
Marines projectiles move too quickly to be force-deflected though, unless you could set up some sort of continual "Sheild" type force move.

LaughingGnoll
2012-09-07, 10:56 AM
Force push would work on both attacks though. Shove that grenade out of the way, deflect the flames, etc etc etc. I will admit that I hadnt considered jedi in my initial judgement. But thats because I jumped straight to galactic EMPIRE military, not republic. I didnt pay attention to that part of the challenge.

... It says Republic in the thread title. :smallconfused:


True, Force Push would let them bounce grenades back. Firebats are fireproof, but it could hold their flames at bay.
Marines projectiles move too quickly to be force-deflected though, unless you could set up some sort of continual "Sheild" type force move.

Well, in the Lesser Canon there are examples of something similar called Force Barrier. However, I don't think it would be sustainable because of the fact that Force powers seem to rely on a combination of the physical strength and training of the user.

mangosta71
2012-09-07, 11:36 AM
True, Force Push would let them bounce grenades back.
Maybe if Marauders used timed grenades. But they don't - they fire impact grenades. To throw the grenade back, Force Push first has to arrest the momentum, which is what triggers the detonation. So while a Jedi might be able to use Force Push to detonate them at a safe distance, he can't throw them back at the Terrans.

Firebats are fireproof, but it could hold their flames at bay.
Firebat flames are ignited liquid or gas. I'm only aware of Jedi being able to use Force Push on solid objects. He could Push the Firebat, but I'm not convinced that he could do anything about the flames. Especially since, while he's doing that, he's taking fire from Marines and Marauders (who have a much longer range than Firebats).

Mando Knight
2012-09-07, 11:57 AM
Yoda is an exception to the rule. RotS shows him staggering as the other Jedi started to die - he knew something ****ed up was going on. He's also the only Jedi that wasn't cut down by the clone escorts. So this "all Jedi can sense everything in their environment and can never be taken by surprise" thing is a load of horse manure. A typical Jedi can't. Even most of the members of the Jedi Council, supposedly the strongest practitioners of the era, can't. Andd bear in mind that the Jedi being slaughtered were in combat theaters, so they had reason to be more than usually alert when they were taken by surprise. Someone who's relaxing at base, that has no reason to have his guard up, is going to be easy pickings.
One reason that the Jedi were caught by surprise (I don't remember if this is ever explained in canon, or if it's just my head-canon) is that by working with the clones, they learned to ignore the "threat ping" of the clones so they could focus on other dangers. Order 66 was successful partly because it was a conditioned response in both parties, the clones and the Jedi. Clones took 66 as just an order, so wouldn't "feel" any different to the Jedi, and the Jedi would be used to feeling the clones potentially lethal presence.

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 12:14 PM
That's pretty close to what the novel of RoTS says:


What is happening right now is why the Clone Wars were fought in the first place. It is their reason for existence. The Clone Wars have always been, in and of themselves, the revenge of the Sith.

They were irresistible bait. They took place in remote locations, on planets that belonged, primarily, to "somebody else". They were fought by expendable proxies. And they were constructed as a win-win situation.

The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.

By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.

With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. And the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.

In this case, Order Sixty-Six.

GeekGirl
2012-09-07, 01:10 PM
A major difference that you seem to be forgetting is that Terran marines fire in bursts (with the capability to go full auto) instead of individual bolts (at a ridiculously low rate of fire). Each bullet in the burst travels on a separate trajectory due to recoil, rifling, gravity, etc. The Jedi would have to move his saber even faster to deflect each bullet individually. This is compounded when multiple marines are firing at once. And even more so if they're attacking from different angles. So even if bullets can be reflected (which I doubt, though I'll grant that it might be possible to block them), two marines still cut a Jedi to ribbons.


I don't know what canon everyone is using, but during The Dark nest trilogy Luke and I believe Jacen and Mara (I'd have to check the book when I get home) used a saber and the force to block a combination of slug fire and essentially shot gun rounds.

On that note it has been a while since I read the series and it is possible I misinterpreted the description.

lt_murgen
2012-09-07, 01:40 PM
I don't know what canon everyone is using,

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

I can only speak for the Sw universe- I donít know the other one well enough. Before the movies, the UE says that the Republic disbanded its military after the New Sith Wars and the Ruusian Reformation. Individual systems maintained their own militaries. Some systems like Rendilli, had formidable militaries. Check out Wookieepedia on the Military Creation Act.
One of the things Palpatine did was essentially conscript all these various groups into the The Grand Army of the Republic (GAR) comprising the clones, was just a portion of the Republic Armed Forces. The clones were the front line fighting troops, but a huge number of Navy personnel and ground support personnel were normal military. Wookieepedia entry on Academy of Carida and on Republic Outlands Security Force supports this. Heck the wookieepedia entry on the GAR has a whole section on numbers.

I tend to lean towards the idea that the Kaminoans think of units as batch-runs as supported by that article. It doesnít make sense to clone in small batches. So 200,000 units beign ready could be their way of thinking about batches. For example, if a batch is a battalion of around 500, then thatís 100 million troops. But I tend to think of it as a bit more separate by function. For example, lets look at an acclimator assault craft:
700 crew
16,000 troops and support
Carries 320 speeder bikes (crew 1)
48 AT-TE (crew 6)
36 SPHA-T (crew 25)
80 LAAT (crew 6)
156 V-19 Torrents:

To them that could be 2 units of capital crew (350 per), 2 unit of pilots (LAAT & V-19 say 600 piltos for 476 ships) 2 unit of Vehicles(speeders and ATTE 600 for 608 ships) and 2 units of artillery (400 per) and 28 units of infantry, say 36 units per Acclimator

mangosta71
2012-09-07, 01:56 PM
I don't know what canon everyone is using, but during The Dark nest trilogy Luke and I believe Jacen and Mara (I'd have to check the book when I get home) used a saber and the force to block a combination of slug fire and essentially shot gun rounds.

On that note it has been a while since I read the series and it is possible I misinterpreted the description.
Shotgun rounds? Shotguns don't fire single bullets - they fire a cloud of pellets. To block a shotgun, the blade of the lightsaber would have to be at least as wide as the cloud (which tends to be about as wide as a person's chest). Blocking a shotgun with something that's about as wide as two (maybe three) fingers is even less physically possible than blocking every single bullet in a burst of assault rifle fire. The saber would literally have to be in multiple places at once.

On another note, where did their opponents get slug throwers from? Those kinds of weapons don't exist anywhere else in-universe either before or after this incident (that I've ever heard of, but to be fair I'd never heard of this either).


One reason that the Jedi were caught by surprise (I don't remember if this is ever explained in canon, or if it's just my head-canon) is that by working with the clones, they learned to ignore the "threat ping" of the clones so they could focus on other dangers. Order 66 was successful partly because it was a conditioned response in both parties, the clones and the Jedi. Clones took 66 as just an order, so wouldn't "feel" any different to the Jedi, and the Jedi would be used to feeling the clones potentially lethal presence.

Okay, then. The presented scenario takes place during the era of the "Grand Army of the Republic", which didn't start until the Clone Wars had begun. And yes, for it to be the Republic's army, it has to be before Palpatine declared the beginning of the Empire, so before the Purge. Which means it's in the middle of a galaxy-wide war, which is screwing up the Jedis' ability to sense things with the Force. They've never demonstrated the ability to sense things from much farther than a hundred feet in the best of times. In the middle of this fog of war there's no way they can sense an invisible sniper that's half a mile away. Their prescience may let them see their heads exploding for no immediately discernible cause a second before it happens, but their heads are still going to explode for no discernible reason before they can even identify the direction the attack is coming from or make any attempt at evasion.

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 02:04 PM
I tend to lean towards the idea that the Kaminoans think of units as batch-runs as supported by that article. It doesnít make sense to clone in small batches. So 200,000 units beign ready could be their way of thinking about batches. For example, if a batch is a battalion of around 500, then thatís 100 million troops.

Interesting idea- but there's a distinct lack of support for it- and some evidence that LFL told the authors otherwise.

Reverent-One
2012-09-07, 02:15 PM
Shotgun rounds? Shotguns don't fire single bullets - they fire a cloud of pellets. To block a shotgun, the blade of the lightsaber would have to be at least as wide as the cloud (which tends to be about as wide as a person's chest). Blocking a shotgun with something that's about as wide as two (maybe three) fingers is even less physically possible than blocking every single bullet in a burst of assault rifle fire. The saber would literally have to be in multiple places at once.

I assume that's where the "and the force" part of the quote comes in.


On another note, where did their opponents get slug throwers from? Those kinds of weapons don't exist anywhere else in-universe either before or after this incident (that I've ever heard of, but to be fair I'd never heard of this either).

Oh, there's slugthrowers in the Star Wars universe, they're just not used much since they're more primitive than blasters.

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 02:27 PM
Concerning nuclear missiles as ship weaponry- the Republic had them too- on dedicated orbital bombardment ships like the Victory class. What makes them specialized for it is their 80 concussion missile tubes- concussion missiles have baradium warheads- basically scaled up versions of thermal detonators- that are consistantly described as fusion weapons.

So it's not like StarCraft is the only side that would use nukes for bombardments- the Republic does too.

JCarter426
2012-09-07, 02:36 PM
Just to clarify, there actually is a Republic Navy. It refers to the space-combat forces of the Republic, and while it was often used in conjunction with the Grand Army, the Navy was it's own distinct organization (for lack of a better word).
I believe I covered that with "there is a Republic Navy". :smalltongue: It's a separate branch of the military, not included in my estimates because the clones are exclusive to the Grand Army, as far as I can tell. At least, the Grand Army is all clones and consisted of the initial order of 3 million clones.

I wonder if a lightsaber could be used to block the non-laser ammunition that the Terrans use. We've only seen lightsabers used to block/reflect laser fire, we've never seen it against other types of ammunition except for Jango Fett using his flamethrower on Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones. Would attempting to block incoming Gauss Rifle fire with a lightsaber melt the metal ammunition? Would it turn larger caliber shots into shrapnel?
Bullets are faster than blasters too, remember. But there are guns in Star Wars, and I think if Jedi weren't immune to bullets everyone would be using them instead. Granted they aren't entirely immune to blasters either.

For the record, there are bullets in some of the games. As I recall they're harder to deflect, but they aren't instant kill. But I usually shrug that stuff off as game mechanics.

Nobody knows- since the TCW timeline hasn't been nailed down yet.
Ah, right.

The Navy has clone crewers, marines , gunners, officers, fighter pilots, and so forth. The layout of the "3 million clone army" focuses entirely on the army itself- ground squads.
No, that's all the Grand Army. At least, the Grand Army has all of those things. They clones are meant to be multipurpose, like the stormtroopers are later, and as I said somewhat based on the Marines. In any case, the initial total was 3 million clones. Total. For everything.

There was an initial order of 3 million, 10 years before the war broke out-
See, there you go. :smalltongue: And all those 3 million clones were the Grand Army of the Republic. Whether more clones were added later in is beside the point. I accept there could have been orders later, and recruits, and so on. I don't accept that 3 million clones were considered the bulk of the Republic military forces halfway into the war, with only 200,000 in the first battle, in a war against more than 10,000 enemy star systems, as the films and Expanded Universe imply.

but given that the guy who placed the order- a Jedi named Sifo-Dyas, was killed right afterward- and the clone number grows rapidly past the 3 million figure according to Guide to Warfare- this strongly suggests other orders were placed immediately after Sifo-Dyas's death.

He probably foresaw trouble in future and the need for an army- but not the sheer scale of the trouble- and that the army would turn out to be massively overstretched.
Eh... he foresaw a war, but not one involving more than 3 million people? In a Republic of more than 20,000 star systems?

mangosta71
2012-09-07, 03:01 PM
I assume that's where the "and the force" part of the quote comes in.
1) That's a cheap cop-out.

2) We never actually see a Jedi block anything with just the Force - they always have to move the saber into the intervening space. These aren't Sith, who learn new techniques and keep them to themselves in order to gain an advantage over each other; these are Jedi, who build academies for the sole purpose of making sure that their knowledge is available to everyone.

Oh, there's slugthrowers in the Star Wars universe, they're just not used much since they're more primitive than blasters.
If by "much" you mean "ever".

Bullets are faster than blasters too, remember. But there are guns in Star Wars, and I think if Jedi weren't immune to bullets everyone would be using them instead. Granted they aren't entirely immune to blasters either.
The average person only needs something that can kill another average person. The fact that people don't use more expensive, bulkier, harder-to-maintain weaponry is not indicative of the inability of said weapons to kill Jedi. The more likely explanation is that blasters are more common because they're lighter, cheaper, have infinite ammo, and apparently don't require any sort of maintenance.

Reverent-One
2012-09-07, 03:09 PM
1) That's a cheap cop-out.

2) We never actually see a Jedi block anything with just the Force - they always have to move the saber into the intervening space. These aren't Sith, who learn new techniques and keep them to themselves in order to gain an advantage over each other; these are Jedi, who build academies for the sole purpose of making sure that their knowledge is available to everyone.

We see Jedi move things with the force all the time, it's not any sort of new technique, but usage of one of their basic skills.


If by "much" you mean "ever".

Not quite, they even make a couple of appearences in the movies, as the Tusken Raider rifles (at least in the Phantom Menace), and Zam Wasell's rifle from Episode II were slugthrowers.

JCarter426
2012-09-07, 03:19 PM
he average person only needs something that can kill another average person. The fact that people don't use more expensive, bulkier, harder-to-maintain weaponry is not indicative of the inability of said weapons to kill Jedi. The more likely explanation is that blasters are more common because they're lighter, cheaper, have infinite ammo, and apparently don't require any sort of maintenance.
I mean people who are explicitly in the Jedi killing business. And I doubt blasters are cheaper or easier to maintain; the only advantages are ammunition - not infinite but it might as well be - and the fact that body bulletproof body armor is more commonplace... but most Jedi don't wear armor.

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 03:25 PM
No, that's all the Grand Army. At least, the Grand Army has all of those things. They clones are meant to be multipurpose, like the stormtroopers are later, and as I said somewhat based on the Marines. In any case, the initial total was 3 million clones. Total. For everything.

In Traviss & Kaufman's Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic article- yes. Though Kaufman later said "This does not represent the entire clone force" according to Wookieepedia. And later sources (such as the aforementioned Essential Guide to Warfare) have started retconning the number of clones upward, while still acknowledging the 3 million number as valid (for a short period in the War).

The Clone Wars Campaign Guide states that, on top of the 3 million clones in the main army, and the Special Operations brigade, there are clone shocktroopers, technical support specialists, cryptographers, logistics specialists- and so on.


I don't accept that 3 million clones were considered the bulk of the Republic military forces halfway into the war, with only 200,000 in the first battle, in a war against more than 10,000 enemy star systems, as the films and Expanded Universe imply.

Why not "accept" it? it's annoying- but it's cemented in enough that it'll be hard to remove. If Lucas and LFL thought it was OK- who are the fans to insist it's "wrong"?

If we're talking 3 million clone footsoldiers (also crewing ground vehicles)- but a whole lot of clones in other roles- it's not so bad.

Gnoman
2012-09-07, 04:50 PM
The average person only needs something that can kill another average person. The fact that people don't use more expensive, bulkier, harder-to-maintain weaponry is not indicative of the inability of said weapons to kill Jedi. The more likely explanation is that blasters are more common because they're lighter, cheaper, have infinite ammo, and apparently don't require any sort of maintenance.

Blasters require ammunition (that's what Lando was mining on Cloud City) and do require servicing. Neither was shown on film, but you don't see that with real guns too often either. Blasters are ubiquitous because, in all depictions, they are dozens of times more powerful than any slugthrower. They have a clearly visible blast effect the very first time you see them in action, which is why unarmored rebel troops in the boarding action at the start of ANH were going down from near misses, while the stormtroopers needed direct hits.

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 05:09 PM
Amount of damage to an unarmed victim varies. Leia gets hit in the arm (even if it's a glance, it's closer than the "near hits" that are killing rebel troops in ANH) and doesn't take too bad a wound.

mangosta71
2012-09-07, 05:38 PM
We see Jedi move things with the force all the time, it's not any sort of new technique, but usage of one of their basic skills.
Their basic skill involves concentrating hard enough on a static object that they can't move themselves for several seconds. Grabbing hold of a few hundred objects that are moving at supersonic speeds in less than a second is an entirely different skill.

Also, to nip the objection I foresee in the bud, according to Yoda the size of the object being moved makes no difference. It takes the same amount of concentration to move a pebble as it does to move a starfighter.

Reverent-One
2012-09-07, 05:48 PM
Their basic skill involves concentrating hard enough on a static object that they can't move themselves for several seconds. Grabbing hold of a few hundred objects that are moving at supersonic speeds in less than a second is an entirely different skill.

Also, to nip the objection I foresee in the bud, according to Yoda the size of the object being moved makes no difference. It takes the same amount of concentration to move a pebble as it does to move a starfighter.

Wrong objection. The problem is, you're talking about fine manipulation of an object. But take a look at Obi-wan in the beginning of Episode 1, he just throws out his hand and a bunch of battle droids fall over. He does this without needing serious concentration and faster than you would claim he should be able to. Do you think was focusing specifically on each one? Or just throwing out an un-targeted wall of force energy to knock them over?

mangosta71
2012-09-07, 06:04 PM
I'd forgotten that scene. Even so, he needed more time to do that than it takes shotgun pellets to travel the distance. If the guy with the shotgun has fired, it's too late. Also of note is that he had to lower his lightsaber and stop moving - even if he successfully counters that attack, he's wide open so a second shooter (say, an invisible sniper) takes him out without batting an eye. Who's gonna stop that attack? A second Jedi? The Jedi commanding clone troops are always alone.

Reverent-One
2012-09-07, 06:10 PM
I'd forgotten that scene. Even so, he needed more time to do that than it takes shotgun pellets to travel the distance. If the guy with the shotgun has fired, it's too late.

Which is why force precog and enhanced reflexes are good for a Jedi to have. They'd be in trouble against blasters too without those.


Also of note is that he had to lower his lightsaber and stop moving - even if he successfully counters that attack, he's wide open so a second shooter (say, an invisible sniper) takes him out without batting an eye. Who's gonna stop that attack? A second Jedi? The Jedi commanding clone troops are always alone.

Which has little to do with how Mara Jade/Jacen may have deflected shotgun blasts. I was merely explaining what probably happened in the book GeekGirl was referring to (can't say for sure, haven't read those books for a while).

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 06:15 PM
Eh... he foresaw a war, but not one involving more than 3 million people? In a Republic of more than 20,000 star systems?

After re-reading Darth Plagueis- it was him that, in conversation with Sifo-Dyas- suggested that

"a civil war is brewing ... The Jedi will be too few to turn the tide. A military needs to be created now, while there's still a chance"- and points him in the direction of the Kaminoans, who can have an army "a million strong" ready for deployment in as little as ten years.

He gently hints that the Republic, and the Jedi Order, needn't know, and that the army might not have to be used- but it needs to be there in reserve.

DeusMortuusEst
2012-09-07, 06:56 PM
Getting back to some other stuff that's been mentioned, are EMP:s ever used in the SW universe? Because if their equipment is vulnerable to such attacks then they might be in deep trouble. My guess is that weapons and military gear would be shielded though.

Further, due to the setup in the OP, the Terran army has all the reason to dig in, and dig in deep until reinforcements arrive. This is something that is quite to their advantage, since that means that the clones won't have meet large units or Terran infantry on the field, where their superior training gives them the edge.

Instead they will have to take reasonably fortified positions from a group that is very good at digging in and staying there, since the order is to repel the invaders and reclaim the planet.

The Terrans on the other hand have no real reason to attack. If the arriving party wants to negotiate they can just sit there and wait, and if they attack they have their comfy bunkers and trenches close by.

At hit and run tactics the Terran probably beat the Republic. Wraiths and ghosts makes it hard enough, but if a vulture really is faster than a speeder they don't have much to fear. Instead they can just roam the land between the two armies, placing spider mines at strategic points.

Sure the Republic will adapt, but it will take a while and they'll loose a lot in the beginning. I don't really see what the Republic can bring that the Terran hasn't seen already, except perhaps Star Destroyers and ships of that size (I do believe that they're bigger than motherships, right?).

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 07:13 PM
The Terrans have gone against the Protoss and not done too badly-

and the Protoss are capable of burning planets severely- liquifying a layer of rock several metres deep across the planet- and burning holes through several miles of crust, all the way through to the magma, over smaller areas.

So- they've seen things on a par with the highest claims for Star Wars BDZ operations.


Getting back to some other stuff that's been mentioned, are EMP:s ever used in the SW universe? Because if their equipment is vulnerable to such attacks then they might be in deep trouble. My guess is that weapons and military gear would be shielded though.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

JCarter426
2012-09-07, 07:42 PM
In Traviss & Kaufman's Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic article- yes. Though Kaufman later said "This does not represent the entire clone force" according to Wookieepedia. And later sources (such as the aforementioned Essential Guide to Warfare) have started retconning the number of clones upward, while still acknowledging the 3 million number as valid (for a short period in the War).
I know. I mentioned this earlier. Doesn't change the initial numbers.

Why not "accept" it? it's annoying- but it's cemented in enough that it'll be hard to remove. If Lucas and LFL thought it was OK- who are the fans to insist it's "wrong"?
I mean I can't accept it as something that would happen in a universe with any sense of logic. Because it's utterly ridiculous. But I feel that way about a lot of things. I "accept" that these are the numbers according to the official canon.

If we're talking 3 million clone footsoldiers (also crewing ground vehicles)- but a whole lot of clones in other roles- it's not so bad.
But that's not what we're talking about. The original order was for 3 million clones, not 3 million clone footsoldiers. And there are more than 200,000 active US Marines - about the same as the initial amount of clones. The more numbers I look up, the more ridiculous it becomes.

Getting back to some other stuff that's been mentioned, are EMP:s ever used in the SW universe? Because if their equipment is vulnerable to such attacks then they might be in deep trouble. My guess is that weapons and military gear would be shielded though./QUOTE]
[QUOTE=hamishspence;13860435]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
In addition to the above, ion weapons in Star Wars have similar effects, and there are specific anti-droid Force techniques. I should also point out that it isn't really hard to protect against electromagnetic pulses. The only reason we don't do it anymore is because it's not cost effective.

Eldariel
2012-09-07, 08:10 PM
In addition to the above, ion weapons in Star Wars have similar effects, and there are specific anti-droid Force techniques. I should also point out that it isn't really hard to protect against electromagnetic pulses. The only reason we don't do it anymore is because it's not cost effective.

Also, because it's not really necessary since EMPs are still so rarely employed. If EMP was a standard weapon of war available to every faction EMP-protection would certainly take higher priority.

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 08:11 PM
But that's not what we're talking about. The original order was for 3 million clones, not 3 million clone footsoldiers. And there are more than 200,000 active US Marines - about the same as the initial amount of clones. The more numbers I look up, the more ridiculous it becomes.

With Dooku and Sidious orchestrating the war between them, each army only needs to be as big as will serve their ends.

If they wanted just enough clones to ensure that, when the time was right- the 10,000-odd Jedi (less, when wartime attrition's accounted for) would be separated from each other and surrounded by enough clones to virtually guarantee each would die- then they wouldn't order more clones than they need- clones are expensive (otherwise there wouldn't be such a big deal made out of the 5 million clones order, in TCW).

So- the clones aren't enough to fight a "true, full scale war" because that's not what they were created for- they were created to destroy the Jedi.

How Sifo-Dyas was convinced to order so few (before he was murdered and Dooku as Tyranus took over the project- delivering Jango to Kamino)- maybe he had no choice but to order as many as Kamino could produce at one time- couldn't get any more than they could produce.

Tavar
2012-09-07, 08:31 PM
The numbers don't really work as presented, no, but they don't have to be that much higher before they do: the Clones, after all, were the elite strike force, of the Republic's armies, with the bulk of the forces being 'normal' militaries.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-07, 08:46 PM
The numbers don't really work as presented, no, but they don't have to be that much higher before they do: the Clones, after all, were the elite strike force, of the Republic's armies, with the bulk of the forces being 'normal' militaries.

The problem though is there's perilously little detail on what that would be, and would be essentially local. We see for example Wookie's defending their planet, but saying they sent armies to other worlds and that this was common practice seems harder to establish.

The Republic as an entity lacking an army before the war is IIRC also onscreen G-canon thus officially unassailable.

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 08:50 PM
It had "judicial forces" though- of which the Jedi were just one arm. Things like pirate hunting and so forth, were dealt with by those.

JCarter426
2012-09-07, 09:00 PM
Also, because it's not really necessary since EMPs are still so rarely employed. If EMP was a standard weapon of war available to every faction EMP-protection would certainly take higher priority.
Right, in the Cold War the worry was an EMP as a result of a nuclear blast. But even if there were portable EMP devices, it still wouldn't be cost effective to shield everything as it would limit the performance of the devices.

With Dooku and Sidious orchestrating the war between them, each army only needs to be as big as will serve their ends.

If they wanted just enough clones to ensure that, when the time was right- the 10,000-odd Jedi (less, when wartime attrition's accounted for) would be separated from each other and surrounded by enough clones to virtually guarantee each would die- then they wouldn't order more clones than they need- clones are expensive (otherwise there wouldn't be such a big deal made out of the 5 million clones order, in TCW).

So- the clones aren't enough to fight a "true, full scale war" because that's not what they were created for- they were created to destroy the Jedi.
That is a good point; however, the Trade Federation, Banking Clans, and so on were all galactic organizations with their own private armies, which they possessed before they ever got involved with the Sith. Granted one clone is said to be as good as 20 droids, but I still suspect shenanigans.

How Sifo-Dyas was convinced to order so few (before he was murdered and Dooku as Tyranus took over the project- delivering Jango to Kamino)- maybe he had no choice but to order as many as Kamino could produce at one time- couldn't get any more than they could produce.
Well either way you look at it, someone is being incredibly silly. Either Sifo-Dyas ordered too few or the Kamioans, the best cloners in the galaxy, are incapable of producing enough clones at all.

Although Sifo-Dyas wasn't meant to be a real person originally. Rewrites and the Expanded Universe's general muddling have caused what was implied to be a complete lie in the film to be the actual course of events according to canon.

The numbers don't really work as presented, no, but they don't have to be that much higher before they do: the Clones, after all, were the elite strike force, of the Republic's armies, with the bulk of the forces being 'normal' militaries.
There are about 2,500 active Navy SEALs, a little under 0.2% of the US armed forces. If all the clones were stationed on Coruscant, and it had an army equivalent to Switzerland's in peacetime, the clones would amount to 0.001875% of Coruscant's armed forces. In other words, one clone would have to be as good as a hundred SEALs - if we were only dealing with one planet.

Tavar
2012-09-07, 09:01 PM
The Republic doesn't have and army. Yet Naboo does have armed forces, and it is part of the Republic. Basically, the way it was set up is that many places had some version of a Local Defense force. Yeah, it wouldn't be that large in most places, but most places don't offer anything of strategic value to the separatists. The important places, industrial centers like Correlia for example, have essentially their own navies, and this is book-canon. It's also book canon that a war was fought in the recent past that involved the republic.

hamishspence
2012-09-07, 09:17 PM
Although Sifo-Dyas wasn't meant to be a real person originally. Rewrites and the Expanded Universe's general muddling have caused what was implied to be a complete lie in the film to be the actual course of events according to canon.

I don't know about the movie- but the AoTC novelization makes it clear that Sifo-Dyas existed- but also that he died roughly the same time as the Grand Army was ordered:

Obi-Wan: "I'm afraid to say that Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago."
Lama Su: "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. But I'm sure he would have been proud of the army that we've built for him."

JCarter426
2012-09-07, 09:55 PM
In the first draft, he was called Sido-Dyas and he didn't exist - it was meant to be a pseudonym for Sidious. Someone made a typo and Lucas ended up liking Sifo-Dyas more and upgraded from nonexistent to dead. According to Obi-Wan, he died before the order was placed, but in the Expanded Universe he ordered the clones.

Reverent-One
2012-09-07, 10:06 PM
In the first draft, he was called Sido-Dyas and he didn't exist - it was meant to be a pseudonym for Sidious. Someone made a typo and Lucas ended up liking Sifo-Dyas more and upgraded from nonexistent to dead. According to Obi-Wan, he died before the order was placed, but in the Expanded Universe he ordered the clones.

Do you have a source for the second part?

JCarter426
2012-09-07, 10:58 PM
What part? The Obi-Wan thing? He says so in Attack of the Clones.

Reverent-One
2012-09-07, 11:43 PM
I don't remember him being able to say that with any certainty, like hamishspence said a few posts ago. He died around the time that order was placed yes, but not definitely before it.

JCarter426
2012-09-07, 11:56 PM
He said he thought it was before, and Mace and Yoda don't contradict this. In fact they look at each other in suspicion. I didn't say it was said with certainty, but I think it was certainly implied.

Tavar
2012-09-08, 12:38 AM
I believe that there's a comic that might dispute this(though it's a different level of continuity, the fact largely rests on inference, so I feel it's valid). It's about the construction of Grevious, I think, and talks about that guys death. I think he was killed on the way back from making the order, so it would certainly be at a suspicious time.

JCarter426
2012-09-08, 12:41 AM
I know. As I said, what was implied to be a lie was made reality later on. Anyway, it has nothing to do with the the Grand Army of the Republic's capabilities, or lack thereof.

GolemsVoice
2012-09-08, 06:07 AM
Question: are the Jedi formal part of the republican army? If not, there might not even be any Jedi in the battle.

hamishspence
2012-09-08, 06:13 AM
They are- at the outbreak of the Clone Wars the Grand Army was merged with the Republic Judicial Forces (which the Jedi come under)- and all serving Knights were given the rank of General, & all serving Padawans the rank of Commander. I think some of the Masters got the rank of High General.

From the Clone Wars Campaign Guide:


Though technically a part of the Judicial Department, the Jedi Order enjoys a substantial degree of autonomy. As a result, the Supreme Chancellor has never been specifically empowered to give orders to the Jedi, although they would freely offer advice ad refer aid in all but the most unusual circumstances.

When Palpatine is granted emergency powers to deal with the Seperatist thread and create a central military, one of the results is the creation of the Republic High Command and the reorganization of the bureaucracy to coordinate the Judicial Department with the war effort. The Jedi are moved out of their traditional peacekeeper role, instead becoming officers in the Grand Army of the Republic and the Republic Navy. As the Supreme Chancellor is the Commander-in-Chief, he is now in a position to command the Jedi directly.

While the Jedi still have the right to refuse the Supreme Chancellor's orders, they must provide considerably more justification than "the will of the Force," because they can be charged with insubordination, if not treason. This state of affairs has occasionally forced the Jedi to comply with instructions against their better judgement- but they cannot openly question the Supreme Chancellor's intentions without damaging the public's faith in the Jedi Order's leadership of the war effort.

GolemsVoice
2012-09-08, 07:43 AM
Ah, thanks. I just wasn't sure. So, how many Jedi would we have to expect at this size?

hamishspence
2012-09-08, 07:56 AM
From The Clone Wars Campaign Guide- you might see a Padawan commanding a regiment (2304 troopers plus support personnel) alongside a clone commander.

At the Brigade level (9216 troopers + support) you can expect to see a Jedi general (Knight).

At the Sector Army level (147,456 troopers + support) the Jedi will be a senior general (usually Jedi Master)

A Systems army (two sector armies) will usually be commanded by a high Jedi general (Master, on the Jedi high council).

In the Republic Navy:

Starfighter Corps
Squadrons (12-32 starfighters) might be commanded by a Padawan
Wings (36-320) might be commanded by a Jedi general
Groups (2 wings) are normally commanded by a senior Jedi general

Republic Fleet
Single vessel: occasionally commanded by a Padawan
Section (3-12 vessels)- a Padawan, if present, will command
Squadron (12-36 vessels + support units)- a Jedi general might command
Fleet (100-300 vessels + support units - a senior Jedi general might command
Armada (1000-5000 vessels)- a high Jedi general commands.

Mando Knight
2012-09-08, 07:57 AM
Shotgun rounds? Shotguns don't fire single bullets - they fire a cloud of pellets. To block a shotgun, the blade of the lightsaber would have to be at least as wide as the cloud (which tends to be about as wide as a person's chest). Blocking a shotgun with something that's about as wide as two (maybe three) fingers is even less physically possible than blocking every single bullet in a burst of assault rifle fire. The saber would literally have to be in multiple places at once.
Shotguns (and their similar siblings, flechette launchers) are actually one of the better-known anti-Jedi weapons because of that. If they're aware of the shotgun and its properties before you fire, they could still dodge it (by virtue of not still being there when you pull the trigger), but dodging is a bit trickier than just moving the lightsaber into the way.

On another note, where did their opponents get slug throwers from? Those kinds of weapons don't exist anywhere else in-universe either before or after this incident (that I've ever heard of, but to be fair I'd never heard of this either).

Oh, there's slugthrowers in the Star Wars universe, they're just not used much since they're more primitive than blasters.
No self-respecting bounty hunter goes without either having one or knowing where he can get one... especially for assassination jobs, where a slugthrower can be suppressed and doesn't create a visible bolt, unlike a blaster.

Also, Luke's gun at the beginning of ANH? A slugthrower (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/6-2Aug2_hunting_rifle).

hamishspence
2012-09-08, 07:59 AM
There are suppressed sniper blasters (invisible bolt, silent) but they're very rare- probably to the point that bounty hunters won't have access.

MLai
2012-09-08, 08:06 AM
What are SW blasters? They're plasma guns, right?
And the advantage blasters have over slug-guns, is that they have greater destructive power, right?
So since Imp Stormtrooper armour would protect the wearer from all but direct hits from blaster bolts, does that mean it would be able to stop bullets?
If so, does that mean the clones won't be instantly cut down by the bullets from Marines? Though with the size of the Marines' guns, not penetrating the armour may not make a difference.

Eldariel
2012-09-08, 08:12 AM
What are SW blasters? They're plasma guns, right?
And the advantage blasters have over slug-guns, is that they have greater destructive power, right?
So since Imp Stormtrooper armour would protect the wearer from all but direct hits from blaster bolts, does that mean it would be able to stop bullets?
If so, does that mean the clones won't be instantly cut down by the bullets from Marines? Though with the size of the Marines' guns, not penetrating the armour may not make a difference.

If Stormtroopers die to spears, rocks and arrows from the Ewoks, I'm fairly sure a Gauss Rifle is sufficient also.

hamishspence
2012-09-08, 08:13 AM
Stormtrooper armour is an improvement on clone armor- and going by wookieepedia:


It was almost impossible to kill a stormtrooper with a slugthrower unless the bullet was abnormally large, specifically armor piercing, or if it hit the body glove or visor lenses

So- specifically armor-piercing slugthrowers can go through stormtrooper armor. And as I recall, the Marine Impaler rifles are supposed to fire hypersonic spikes.

MLai
2012-09-08, 08:14 AM
Ewoks are imbalanced. They're banned in tournament play.

hamishspence
2012-09-08, 08:26 AM
The Essential Guide to Warfare does discuss Phase I clonetrooper armor- and states that it couldn't prevent penetration from direct hits from blaster bolts or projectile weapons- though it was excellent vs glancing hits, impacts, shrapnel and so forth.

The StarCraft manual confirms that Impaler projectiles are hypersonic- and that they provided good armor penetration vs a wide range of armor types.

Traab
2012-09-08, 08:54 AM
From The Clone Wars Campaign Guide- you might see a Padawan commanding a regiment (2304 troopers plus support personnel) alongside a clone commander.

At the Brigade level (9216 troopers + support) you can expect to see a Jedi general (Knight).

At the Sector Army level (147,456 troopers + support) the Jedi will be a senior general (usually Jedi Master)

A Systems army (two sector armies) will usually be commanded by a high Jedi general (Master, on the Jedi high council).

In the Republic Navy:

Starfighter Corps
Squadrons (12-32 starfighters) might be commanded by a Padawan
Wings (36-320) might be commanded by a Jedi general
Groups (2 wings) are normally commanded by a senior Jedi general

Republic Fleet
Single vessel: occasionally commanded by a Padawan
Section (3-12 vessels)- a Padawan, if present, will command
Squadron (12-36 vessels + support units)- a Jedi general might command
Fleet (100-300 vessels + support units - a senior Jedi general might command
Armada (1000-5000 vessels)- a high Jedi general commands.

So it sounds like combined there might be three jedi knights, one for each branch of the military. That shouldnt be insurmountable. Though there would likely be early losses to jedis detecting the ghosts before the ghosts learn this little factoid. Might have to drop the plan to assassinate officers, and just stick to sabotage.

The Glyphstone
2012-09-08, 08:57 AM
Detecting/sensing ghosts might not help much though, if it doesn't give them a precise enough location to actually attack or direct an attack. At best, it does reduce the damage a Ghost can cause by warning everyone of a nearby invisible enemy, and decrease the total time Ghosts and Wraiths/Banshees are allowed to run rampant before the Republic brings in anti-cloaking sensors.

GolemsVoice
2012-09-08, 10:06 AM
It also doesn't neccessarily protect the non-Jedi officers, though, as stated, it could put a damper on the Terran's plans to infiltrate and assassinate.

Another question: a what range do Jedis usually detect lifeforms? Because it might make the difference between "somebody is approaching the base" and "somebody is in the room ah I've been shot"

hamishspence
2012-09-08, 10:13 AM
Obi-Wan and Anakin were able to sense the assassin creatures sent to kill Padme in the next room- when they starting moving in her direction. That might have been more "sense danger" than "sense life".

It varies depending on the author.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-08, 10:32 AM
Jedi senses are a bit fuzzy and unreliable on range.

Upper end off the top of my head Joruus C'Boath was detecting and effecting people through a cloak at starship/orbital ranges. Same book series implied Yoda did that to Luke first time he came to Dagobah. Other cases are more precognition.

At the same time Jedi are far from omniscient like the ones shot in the back during ROTS. Which implies they have to at some be looking to some degree to me.

I'd say a Jedi can track down a Ghost, but wouldn't automatically know one is around to start. Course there are probably more Ghosts then Jedi too.

hamishspence
2012-09-08, 10:53 AM
When it comes to detecting an "unanticipated visitor"- C'baoth again, when Mara's entering orbit around Jomark in Dark Force Rising.

I suspect that he's somewhat exceptional though.

GolemsVoice
2012-09-08, 10:59 AM
So let's say they'd definitely feel when somebody's just about to kill them (like a sniper taking aim) and likely feel that somebody enters their near vicinity with hostile intent, range depending on their power and maybe training.

hamishspence
2012-09-08, 11:06 AM
That's the impression I got in the novels, at least.

shadow_archmagi
2012-09-08, 11:12 AM
Sounds about right, Golems.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-08, 11:25 AM
So let's say they'd definitely feel when somebody's just about to kill them (like a sniper taking aim) and likely feel that somebody enters their near vicinity with hostile intent, range depending on their power and maybe training.

Sniper is hard to say given that we saw in Sith at least one get shot in the back and receiving the equivalent from while in a a fighter. At the very best they are just as vulnerable to distraction as a normal person. However probably enough to make say sneaking into base not valid with a Jedi around.

For the Terrans I'd deal with Jedi either through overwhelming force or have a couple of dedicated Ghosts accompany an attack then when the Jedi appears to face the normal forces have the Ghosts snipe him while he busy concerning himself with the fight. Once the Jedi goes down he won't be quickly replaced so either win the fight, or withdrawl and let the Ghosts come back to bring down the nukes or whatever.

More generally I personally don't think there should be enough Jedi to neutralize cloaking as an advantage to the Terrans in a broad sense.

Mando Knight
2012-09-08, 11:38 AM
If Stormtroopers die to spears, rocks and arrows from the Ewoks, I'm fairly sure a Gauss Rifle is sufficient also.

Ewoks are imbalanced. They're banned in tournament play.
As stupid as the Ewoks-kill-stormtroopers thing is, as I recall, they got up close enough to attack around the plastoid shell rather than through it. (Also, either Endor's trees are some kind of super-material, AT-ST armor is produced by a flimsiplast manufacturer, or Lucas has no sense of materials engineering. Occam's Razor implies the third.)

shadow_archmagi
2012-09-08, 11:48 AM
I mean people who are explicitly in the Jedi killing business. And I doubt blasters are cheaper or easier to maintain; the only advantages are ammunition - not infinite but it might as well be - and the fact that body bulletproof body armor is more commonplace... but most Jedi don't wear armor.

Given how few Jedi there are, and how spread across the galaxy they tend to be, the "Jedi Killing Business" wouldn't be a very large market. Particularly given their established roles as neutral mediators and policemen- It's possible that the occasional crimelord would get pissed at a Jedi and order him killed, but more likely that he'd realize assassinating a Jedi would only cause him MORE problems.



More generally I personally don't think there should be enough Jedi to neutralize cloaking as an advantage to the Terrans in a broad sense.

Particularly since Jedi wouldn't really be able to neutralize air cloaking, since he probably can't translate vague feelings of danger into the kind of precise trajectory tracking you'd need to direct AA fire. I'd think a skilled Jedi could say "There's a ghost... somewhere... on that... that hill over there. Hey, can I get some artillery on that hill? Something over there is really MURDEROUS."

GolemsVoice
2012-09-08, 12:10 PM
Particularly since Jedi wouldn't really be able to neutralize air cloaking, since he probably can't translate vague feelings of danger into the kind of precise trajectory tracking you'd need to direct AA fire.

It doesn't neccessarily have to be precise enough to actually direct fire, the vague premonition that something is coming through the air already negates a lot of the advantage of a surprise attack, since important personal can flee into bunkers and such.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-08, 01:39 PM
As stupid as the Ewoks-kill-stormtroopers thing is, as I recall, they got up close enough to attack around the plastoid shell rather than through it. (Also, either Endor's trees are some kind of super-material, AT-ST armor is produced by a flimsiplast manufacturer, or Lucas has no sense of materials engineering. Occam's Razor implies the third.)

Yeah the closest I've seen is an arrow that struck the black layer, which given that its flexible may well be like kevlar in being more vulnerable to a cutting attack like an arrow.

And while I'd like to see actual analysis of say steel box versus simultaneous impact from large blunt masses... I always thought the great irony is that a single log would have certainly knocked the chicken walk over so why not that.

And well Stormtrooper may be more advanced but not so much that they really neutralize a forest's natural ability to make combat hard. The Empire evidently does not have x-ray vision scanners and tree piercing rifles as standard issue, so this make everything naturally into a near melee flight. Add familiarity and numbers and I'd say the defeat is a lot better then most people like to say.

The Empire lost when they didn't simply clear-cut everything for a couple hundred yards around their facilities. And they lost again when they made the bad (but more understandable) decision to engage the Ewoks and not just form a tight circle of covering fire while everybody went inside and locked the door behind them.


It doesn't neccessarily have to be precise enough to actually direct fire, the vague premonition that something is coming through the air already negates a lot of the advantage of a surprise attack, since important personal can flee into bunkers and such.

Which counts for a lot less when the enemy is actually invisible. The point of a warning is to raise values on detection, when you still can't detect something you are still suprised when it hits you

Though I think a Wraith once the fight is joined is probably more vulnerable then a Ghost. Presuming the Jedi is smart enough to take the controls of an AA canon himself, which not all may be. Since the Wraith can't exactly take cover and fly. A Ghost can thus shield themselves from being shot forcing the Jedi to have to take the time to close to lightsaber range rather then just direct fire at an area.

Traab
2012-09-08, 02:07 PM
I think the way it might work with ghosts is. The jedi wouldnt sense the ghosts presence at first, until they got nearby, and/or tried to attack either the jedi or someone in the room with him. After that, he would be on his guard, and would be able to work sort of like a bloodhound tracking the ghost down. Now, when THAT happens, I think the advantage would get a little tough to determine. I mean, its doubtful the jedi could say, "He is three corridors to the left, third door on the right" and more like, "He is that way!" Which could mean, across the room, or three sections away.

hamishspence
2012-09-08, 02:57 PM
The Empire lost when they didn't simply clear-cut everything for a couple hundred yards around their facilities.

Choices of One brings this up. Thrawn makes the recommendation- but the Emperor points out that it's supposed to be that way- it's a trap.

Gnoman
2012-09-08, 03:19 PM
It doesn't neccessarily have to be precise enough to actually direct fire, the vague premonition that something is coming through the air already negates a lot of the advantage of a surprise attack, since important personal can flee into bunkers and such.

It's not necessary to have a precise fix. Precise aiming at aircraft wasn't even possible in RW until near the end of WWII. Even if dedicated anti-aircraft weapons aren't availiable in quanity, massed blaster fire could easily saturate any given "there's something in this area" situation.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-08, 03:29 PM
Choices of One brings this up. Thrawn makes the recommendation- but the Emperor points out that it's supposed to be that way- it's a trap.

Well that's not much better as a reason but at least now we can blame this on Palps being an idiot badly in need of reading a certain list.

hamishspence
2012-09-08, 03:37 PM
Well that's not much better as a reason but at least now we can blame this on Palps being an idiot badly in need of reading a certain list.
Thrawn actually recommends cutting the forest back for a hundred kilometres- and using one garrison rather than several.

As the Emperor puts it "You of all my officers should understand the usefulness of a well-laid trap."

Thrawn's traps tend to work better though :smallamused:

Mando Knight
2012-09-08, 05:18 PM
Thrawn actually recommends cutting the forest back for a hundred kilometres- and using one garrison rather than several.

As the Emperor puts it "You of all my officers should understand the usefulness of a well-laid trap."

Thrawn's traps tend to work better though :smallamused:

That's because they're well-laid. :smalltongue:

pffh
2012-09-08, 07:12 PM
For the Terrans I'd deal with Jedi either through overwhelming force or have a couple of dedicated Ghosts accompany an attack then when the Jedi appears to face the normal forces have the Ghosts snipe him while he busy concerning himself with the fight. Once the Jedi goes down he won't be quickly replaced so either win the fight, or withdrawl and let the Ghosts come back to bring down the nukes or whatever.

Those sort of tactics rely on them knowing what the Jedi are capable off which at first they won't and will probably just assume they are normal officers. They won't find out what the Jedi can do until the ghosts sneak in and try to assassinate one and even if they survive that encounter there will be a lot of blanks for them to fill in.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-08, 07:38 PM
Those sort of tactics rely on them knowing what the Jedi are capable off which at first they won't and will probably just assume they are normal officers. They won't find out what the Jedi can do until the ghosts sneak in and try to assassinate one and even if they survive that encounter there will be a lot of blanks for them to fill in.

Jedi aren't exactly a secret weapon and have been playing with the same rules for as long as the Republic has been around. From an intelligence perspective that's open season on learning the shape of their abilities. Or should at least give a starting point.

Also its not like Ghosts work for Alamut in the Middle Ages, their chances of escape and therefore survival multiply because they use guns. And Ghosts aren't exactly vanilla humans, a fair bit of that psychic power goes into reinforcing physical abilities. I'll give it a fair chance some of them will get away. Especially given that Jedi are high officers they really shouldn't have the freedom to go running down every Ghost as a group.

And lack of intel cuts both ways. Are Jedi going to know right away that a normal response ordering the camp/base to alert and sending out teams to find the Ghost isn't going to work and that they have to do it themselves to expect success?

Mando Knight
2012-09-08, 08:59 PM
Jedi aren't exactly a secret weapon and have been playing with the same rules for as long as the Republic has been around. From an intelligence perspective that's open season on learning the shape of their abilities. Or should at least give a starting point.
If they get into Republic space easily, know who to ask about, etc. If you just drop both sides in blind on a flat featureless plain, they don't really have time for intel work.

Especially given that Jedi are high officers they really shouldn't have the freedom to go running down every Ghost as a group.
Shouldn't, but the Jedi do things like that. Like, all the time. Generals in Star Wars have a bad habit of getting right into the front lines and fighting alongside their grunts, or running off to do some spec ops mission, often not even bringing commando bodyguards with them.

JCarter426
2012-09-08, 09:40 PM
Jedi aren't exactly a secret weapon and have been playing with the same rules for as long as the Republic has been around. From an intelligence perspective that's open season on learning the shape of their abilities. Or should at least give a starting point.
I disagree. Ten thousand Jedi Knights would be less than a millionth of a percent of the population of Coruscant. And the Jedi mostly keep to themselves and are a pretty secretive bunch. Most people have never met a Jedi. The Expanded Universe even mentions that entire star systems have never even heard of the Force.

MLai
2012-09-08, 09:47 PM
Yes, currently this thread makes the mistake of assuming the Republic is genre-blind and has zero intel, and at the same time assuming the Dominion is genre-savvy, has seen all the movies, and somehow has perfect intel.

Half of a war is intelligence. With the deck stacked this way, even Colonial Marines can probably beat the Republic.

GolemsVoice
2012-09-08, 11:32 PM
On the other hand, even if the Terrans don't know about the Jedi themselves, they have great experience fighting Protoss templars, which come at least close.
Zeratul for example could as well be a Jedi.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-08, 11:37 PM
Shouldn't, but the Jedi do things like that. Like, all the time. Generals in Star Wars have a bad habit of getting right into the front lines and fighting alongside their grunts, or running off to do some spec ops mission, often not even bringing commando bodyguards with them.

Thing about intel is that it only has to be obtained once. And even not being obtained can be an important clue. If Ghost suddenly become less effective where Jedi are it doesn't take a genius to gather oh these guys are rare but living cloak sensors.

And even with Jedi pursuit I give Ghosts acceptable odds. They have enhanced physiques and since they are snipers they start at a range, and probably with some terrain advantages too. Plus time to plan their escape route.


I disagree. Ten thousand Jedi Knights would be less than a millionth of a percent of the population of Coruscant. And the Jedi mostly keep to themselves and are a pretty secretive bunch. Most people have never met a Jedi. The Expanded Universe even mentions that entire star systems have never even heard of the Force.

I suspect the Force is far less famous then the Jedi, but any place that doesn't know Jedi is "farther from" then Tatooine. Also you know computers and so forth. ROTS novel has a brief bit I remember eulogizing Anakin and Obi-Wan as famous heroes the populace believes in. They may have secrets but they themselves are not a secret by anymeans.

I'm not saying that they get a detailed report on ranges, but knowing that say Jedi are famous for extra-sensory perception isn't exactly going to be nuclear launch codes or proof of aliens in Area 51.

Heck Ghost can read thoughts outright yes? That's a crazy interrogation advantage, and the clones are certainly going to know something about Jedi.

The challenge was that the Terrans would be somehow unable to formulate a strategy where instead of trying to defeat a Jedi by outright assassination you try it in battle when the Jedi is going to be distracted. I'm merely challenging there are multiple ways to get that sort of thing. They aren't going to magically hide they can detect Ghosts, even if Terrans never figure out how. Going from there to "try it while their distracted" isn't a big leap in my book.


Yes, currently this thread makes the mistake of assuming the Republic is genre-blind and has zero intel, and at the same time assuming the Dominion is genre-savvy, has seen all the movies, and somehow has perfect intel.

Half of a war is intelligence. With the deck stacked this way, even Colonial Marines can probably beat the Republic.

Frankly I'm not.

I'd presume there will be an intel war, just that the challenge was raised that the Terrans shouldn't have a knowledge basis to come up with a counter-Jedi strategy. IE that Terrans are being forced to operate blind.

If someone is proposing a counter-Terran strategy I would likewise grant unless there's a particular reason why not that they can probably get the intel they need to at least formulate the strategy. Thus far though the SW end has been more about noted lack. How they have ways to say pierce cloaking tech but those ways are also rare-rare-rare.

For contrast as case where the Terrans shouldn't be able to use a certain tactic: No trench-runs on the Death Star. That weakness was unknown and only discovered from a complete technical readout which itself was a military secret. And would have been fixed by actually launching the Death Star real fighter contingent. Yeah the Terrans might run a commando op but that's not high percentage enough to count on. Of course the GAR doesn't have the Death Star...

pffh
2012-09-08, 11:46 PM
How many ghosts would the Terrans have? I've always figured they were quite rare.

JCarter426
2012-09-08, 11:48 PM
I suspect the Force is far less famous then the Jedi, but any place that doesn't know Jedi is "farther from" then Tatooine. Also you know computers and so forth.
Well, I have computers, and I still can't remember all of the Ten Commandments without looking it up. Nor would I be able to direct a stranger to the nearest bishop or explain to them certain metaphysical concepts. Even though roughly a third of the world's population are Christians, rather than less than one millionth of a percent. Granted I can't remember the last time a priest used magic powers and a sword made of light to defeat an army of battle droids... but as I said, most people in Star Wars haven't witnessed that either.

They may have secrets but they themselves are not a secret by anymeans.
Yes, but these secrets include how to construct lightsabers and any weaknesses the technology has (even some Jedi haven't heard of cortosis), what the Force is, how they get their power from it, the history of the Jedi and Sith, and so on. In other words, any useful information about the Jedi.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-09, 12:23 AM
How many ghosts would the Terrans have? I've always figured they were quite rare.

I take that they are build-able somewhere fairly low on the tech tree as more common then Jedi.


Well, I have computers, and I still can't remember all of the Ten Commandments without looking it up.

Unless you are somehow arguing you couldn't use databases to look that sort of information up that isn't relevant now is it.


Yes, but these secrets include how to construct lightsabers and any weaknesses the technology has (even some Jedi haven't heard of cortosis), what the Force is, how they get their power from it, the history of the Jedi and Sith, and so on. In other words, any useful information about the Jedi.

Irrelevant examples all.

That Jedi have superhuman perceptions isn't going to be that secret, or a secret at all. Its not a weakness, or a special mastery or technical details, its a general ability evident from everything Jedi do. Put even the vaguest mentions together with Ghosts being able to snipe anything else in the GAR and you have all you need to know to figure out "Jedi can detect cloaked things, get more creative with them."

Active intel is only one way to figure that out, simply that Ghost don't come back as often against Jedi is a big enough clue on its own. You are requiring the Terrans to behave like blithering idiots.

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 12:35 AM
Unless you are somehow arguing you couldn't use databases to look that sort of information up that isn't relevant now is it.
On the contrary. I know how to use computers. Not everyone on Earth does, and not everyone from another universe would be able to use Star Wars computers, assuming they landed somewhere near some and not in the middle of the Dune Sea. Also, only Jedi are allowed to access the Jedi Archives.

Irrelevant examples all.

That Jedi have superhuman perceptions isn't going to be that secret, or a secret at all. Its not a weakness, or a special mastery or technical details, its a general ability evident from everything Jedi do. Put even the vaguest mentions together with Ghosts being able to snipe anything else in the GAR and you have all you need to know to figure out "Jedi can detect cloaked things, get more creative with them."
I don't see how that helps. It would be like figuring out Superman has X-ray vision after failing to hide from him. Well, you've lost. You don't get a second chance. If there's an army of you, maybe you could eventually figure out he can't see through lead - but Jedi don't have such a weakness. There are few ways to exploit Jedi abilities that don't require you have Jedi abilities of your own.

GolemsVoice
2012-09-09, 01:02 AM
But what he's saying isn't that the Terrans will (or even want to) learn all of the secret lore of the Jedi. The fact that they are dudes with crazy ESP and other powers should be fairly well known, however.

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 01:27 AM
I'm just saying it wouldn't be easy. If any idiot could look up how to kill Jedi on the internet, there would be no Jedi.

mangosta71
2012-09-09, 01:29 AM
It doesn't neccessarily have to be precise enough to actually direct fire, the vague premonition that something is coming through the air already negates a lot of the advantage of a surprise attack, since important personal can flee into bunkers and such.
Of course, as fast as banshees and wraiths are, and the range at which they engage, combined with the range at which Jedi can sense imminent danger, means that the Jedi gives a warning yell when fire is already incoming. People are just starting to scramble for cover when the first missiles hit. And unless the Dominion air forces are even stupider than you guys seem to be assuming, any weapon emplacements are going to be their first targets.

Anyway, hard numbers time. Based on the opening post, this is not a large-scale battle. Let's assume that the Republic has 2304 clone troopers, one Jedi commanding, and the assorted vehicles that accompany such a force. Of course, not all of the clones are acting as infantry in this engagement, as they also man their vehicles. If there are 2305 Dominion personnel involved, the breakdown is probably something like:
1000 marines
500 marauders
200 firebats
50 ghosts
150 siege tanks
100 goliaths
100 vultures
100 banshees
100 wraiths
As near as I can tell, this is a pretty good approximation of the relative canonical abundance of the various units in Starcraft. Since each Terran vehicle has a crew of 1, an equivalent number of personnel gives the Dominion a huge advantage in hardware.

In this matchup, the Dominion curbstomps the Republic force. Hard. Without cloaking, any air force the Republic tries to send in gets slaughtered by the wraiths. (If they're savvy, they'll wait until the Republic fighters are making strafing runs and already facing incoming fire so that they don't realize they're getting blown out of the air by cloaked units - yes, it means accepting some losses among the ground forces, but it maintains the surprise of having cloaked units. And it should be immediately obvious from their behavior that the Republic pilots have no idea that their opponents have access to cloaking devices.) Any ground force gets annihilated from beyond their own range by the siege tanks. Ghosts chill along the edge of the battlefield, sniping officers at their leisure (the only possible exception is the Jedi in overall command, and since he's just a Padawan there's a good chance his senses aren't alert enough to detect the cloaked ghost, let alone hunt him down if he manages to survive the assassination attempt).

This is assuming that neither side has any sort of intelligence about the other and thus both default to their typical tactics - the clones charge, the Terrans dig in.

GolemsVoice
2012-09-09, 01:43 AM
Of course, as fast as banshees and wraiths are, and the range at which they engage, combined with the range at which Jedi can sense imminent danger, means that the Jedi gives a warning yell when fire is already incoming. People are just starting to scramble for cover when the first missiles hit. And unless the Dominion air forces are even stupider than you guys seem to be assuming, any weapon emplacements are going to be their first targets.

Truth, truth. By the way, seeing SC troops in such numbers still feels strange to me.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-09, 02:27 AM
I'm just saying it wouldn't be easy. If any idiot could look up how to kill Jedi on the internet, there would be no Jedi.

Well my proposed tactic is inspired by part of how the Jedi were wiped out so that's why I think it would work.

This should not be confused with it being exactly easy either. Even with complete strategic and often tactical suprise the Jedi also put up good fights in the Purge.

Of course how Ghosts can best take Jedi down is only one option for the Terrans. There's other ways too. Enough massed fire should do it but isn't terribly ideal. Siege Tanks or aerial attacks are better. For the front lines Firebats with flame throwers, no deflecting that with a lightsaber.

All of these really only work for one reason. The Jedi have no major weaknesses, they just aren't numerous enough for a war. And killing one takes decades to replace, so they are essentially a finite quantity given their recruitment requirements and methods. Individually though there isn't single operator Terran unit I think could take them one on one.

(Unless someone wants to argue lightsabers won't block the solid projectiles fired by marines... in which case they are melee fighters in a ranged battle with all the irrelevance that entails)

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 03:09 AM
Well my proposed tactic is inspired by part of how the Jedi were wiped out so that's why I think it would work.
They were wiped out by troops they trusted, troops they had been told would serve them loyally and had done so for three years, as well as one of their own. Surprise was the problem; Jedi can usually see anything coming. Other than Order 66, the only time we see Jedi killed en masse in in a battle they choose to fight knowing they were going to lose well in advance. Once the clones showed up, they easily won. In fact, I can't recall a single Jedi dying in any Clone Wars material - apart from ones killed by other Jedi or Jedi-like individuals - though I haven't seen everything.

So I don't see the similarity here.

This should not be confused with it being exactly easy either. Even with complete strategic and often tactical suprise the Jedi also put up good fights in the Purge.
Fair enough, but as I said Jedi are hard to surprise.

Of course how Ghosts can best take Jedi down is only one option for the Terrans. There's other ways too. Enough massed fire should do it but isn't terribly ideal. Siege Tanks or aerial attacks are better. For the front lines Firebats with flame throwers, no deflecting that with a lightsaber.
Well, there are a few cases of ridiculousness like Mace tearing through lines of tanks with relative ease. And Jango's flamethrower didn't do much good against him either.

All of these really only work for one reason. The Jedi have no major weaknesses, they just aren't numerous enough for a war.
Again, I disagree. One of their strengths is they can turn the tide battle, through superior combat abilities, healing the wounded, boosting morale, messing with the enemy's morale, precognition... lots of things.

They do, however, have lots of weaknesses. Just not well known ones. Generally, spontaneous and indirect attacks are more likely to work - grenades, poison, attacking the Jedi's allies, and so on. The tricky thing is the more planning involved, the more likely the Jedi will sense the trap and avoid it. And avoiding detection requires extensive knowledge of how Jedi senses work.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-09, 04:32 AM
They were wiped out by troops they trusted, troops they had been told would serve them loyally and had done so for three years, as well as one of their own. Surprise was the problem; Jedi can usually see anything coming.

But if they such an infallible danger/hostility sense they don't even need a genuine clue a threat is there for then all of them should have spun right around the moment the clones went hostile.

Instead a few onscreen and presumably more off-screen were shot in the back.

They couldn't have that trust used against them if they didn't have limits on focus to their senses. Such as not being able to reliably sense just plain everything going on in a battle so directing their efforts on the guys they knew were going to shoot them. Simple proximity doesn't work because then they would have reacted to the clones, even on the notion maybe the enemy got behind them.

Ultimately their defeat demands the basic trickery can work if properly applied


Well, there are a few cases of ridiculousness like Mace tearing through lines of tanks with relative ease. And Jango's flamethrower didn't do much good against him either.

That's also Mace "My wallet says Badass Mother****er on it" Windu who proved more effective then a whole damn team of Jedi against Palps among other things.

And that's one unit, not multiple covering several angles.



Again, I disagree. One of their strengths is they can turn the tide battle, through superior combat abilities, healing the wounded, boosting morale, messing with the enemy's morale, precognition... lots of things.

And that will happen too in some case, but every Jedi is functionally irreplaceable too. So when they go down that is that much more of a consequence.

They also vary pretty heavily in ability. A standard un-named background Jedi is going to be more along the lines of physical prowess, lightsaber, and some force pushes.

Heck by demonstration even of by those that can we have to conclude that the bigger flashier tricks are much more draining on a Jedi. Sufficiently so to effect their whole approach. Which matters given this is a war and not a one on one versus.

Its why the Jedi need an army, they can't just show up and send rolling waves of force pushes out to crush an entire army to pieces. Now in some cases you can get serious effects, I remember one of Luke's apprentices performing giving their life to throw an Imperial fleet out of Yavin with a force storm... but you know heroic sacrifice. The whole picture though has to account for them normally not doing anything big at all. Normally and even overwhelmingly relying on lightsabers to get things done though.

Especially if we are still talking the GAR as an army and not whatever heroes of the setting can be mustered, since that's really a separate idea.

Fallen Angel
2012-09-09, 04:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus

HK-47 knew how to kill Jedi. So did Atton Rand.

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 04:56 AM
But if they such an infallible danger/hostility sense they don't even need a genuine clue a threat is there for then all of them should have spun right around the moment the clones went hostile.

Instead a few onscreen and presumably more off-screen were shot in the back.

They couldn't have that trust used against them if they didn't have limits on focus to their senses. Such as not being able to reliably sense just plain everything going on in a battle so directing their efforts on the guys they knew were going to shoot them. Simple proximity doesn't work because then they would have reacted to the clones, even on the notion maybe the enemy got behind them.

Ultimately their defeat demands the basic trickery can work if properly applied
For the record I should point out I thought Order 66 as it was executed in the film was pretty cheap. Only one guy goes after Yoda and Obi-Wan takes more damage than anyone who actually died. None of it made sense. But getting back to the matter at hand, the level of surprise as a result of your own troops turning on you is far greater than an enemy trying to ambush you.

That's also Mace "My wallet says Badass Mother****er on it" Windu who proved more effective then a whole damn team of Jedi against Palps among other things.
That too. :smallbiggrin:

And that's one unit, not multiple covering several angles.
Fair enough. As I said, this is the sort of tactic that would work, but probably not in smaller numbers, at least not against Mr Great Vengeance and Furious Anger there. And remember that corning a Jedi would be tricky, barring certain cases in which they intentionally let themselves get surrounded because that's what the script says.

And that will happen too in some case, but every Jedi is functionally irreplaceable too. So when they go down that is that much more of a consequence.
Right, but you gotta kill 'em first...

They also vary pretty heavily in ability. A standard un-named background Jedi is going to be more along the lines of physical prowess, lightsaber, and some force pushes.
Well, I'm inclined to attribute that to lazy writing and directing. In the Expanded Universe they're shown to be generally not as useless as they are in the films. And by that I mean even padawans can pull spaceships out of stars with only their mind.

Heck by demonstration even of by those that can we have to conclude that the bigger flashier tricks are much more draining on a Jedi. Sufficiently so to effect their whole approach. Which matters given this is a war and not a one on one versus.
Fair enough. Expanded Universe Jedi are seriously overpowered though, even compared to prequel Jedi.

Its why the Jedi need an army, they can't just show up and send rolling waves of force pushes out to crush an entire army to pieces. Now in some cases you can get serious effects, I remember one of Luke's apprentices performing giving their life to throw an Imperial fleet out of Yavin with a force storm... but you know heroic sacrifice. The whole picture though has to account for them normally not doing anything big at all. Normally and even overwhelmingly relying on lightsabers to get things done though.
Well, obviously they can only protect you, they can't fight a war for you... but that doesn't mean they can't evade entire armies when they're only concerned with saving themselves. The best way to kill a Jedi is to trick him into killing himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus
I admit I had his dialogue file open for some of this discussion.

MLai
2012-09-09, 05:12 AM
So basically, the summary is GAR has about 50x the raw firepower of the Dominion, in both numbers and weapons output, which is to be expected. The theoretical battle was pretty one-sided until somebody said "Wait, SC has cloak, SW doesn't really."

So basically, continued discusson hinges on one thing: Can GAR counter cloaking technology?

I thought this forum is full of SW fans? If GAR can realistically counter cloaking, speak up now. What about the old "ST vs SW" discussions; surely the matter of cloaking tech came up back then? Because without cloaking, the ST universe would've just rolled over for the Galactic Empire. So what happened back then when somebody said "Klingon warbirds with Undiscovered Country assault-cloaking tech"? What did the SW camp say back then?

The Glyphstone
2012-09-09, 07:51 AM
That was also answered previously. SW can theoretically counter cloaking technology, but only with a specific, very specialized, expensive, and energy-intensive type of sensor. So between the Dominion's superior defensive abilities and its cloaking technologies, it will run rampant for a while until the Republic's industrial base comes fully online and they start manufacturing the crystal gravity whatever devices that can foil cloaking devices. Once they do, their manufactory capability, far more than their weapons output - in terms of pound-for-pound damage, the Terrans are beating the Republic in anything they're fielding for ground forces, it's only in space combat that their equivalent units lose out. But the Republic's sheer economy means it can ultimately win by attrition.

As for SW vs ST, my bet is that they just didn't want to deal with the hassle of figuring out which of Trek's eighty different cloaking devices (each of which slightly different than all the others in its degree of Macguffinity) they were talking about for that particular fight.

GolemsVoice
2012-09-09, 08:30 AM
Well, depending on how much of the computer game we bring into this, the Terrans also have quite the industrial capacity. I'd assume that both sides get their ressources from somewhere. If not, than neither side is going to produce much.

Traab
2012-09-09, 10:49 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus

HK-47 knew how to kill Jedi. So did Atton Rand.

Wow, Ghosts have a lot of advantages against jedi it seems. Sniping from concealment, not making elaborate plans to kill them, not knowing of the force, needing to be SEEN to have the force directly used against them, all of these are apparently advantages against the jedi. If only they had aoe weaponry of some sort. Discovering the best way to hide their minds seems unlikely for the short term, PERHAPS they would figure it out over time when comparing scenarios that involved them being spotted or not. But even without that, they seem to have some solid advantages over the jedi.

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 11:39 AM
Well, no, it's not just not knowing about the Force, otherwise any idiot could kill a Jedi. It's just possible to mess with a Jedi's mind by burying your intentions in a fog of random thoughts and emotions. Like Batman's immunity from mind reading. But it can only be done with significant experience, and it's possible it requires some form of Force sensitivity to do it.

And plain old sniping isn't going to work either, at least not as an offensive maneuver. That kind of sniping requires elaborate planning, and overplanning is the worst thing you can do.

Traab
2012-09-09, 11:52 AM
Well, no, it's not just not knowing about the Force, otherwise any idiot could kill a Jedi. It's just possible to mess with a Jedi's mind by burying your intentions in a fog of random thoughts and emotions. Like Batman's immunity from mind reading. But it can only be done with significant experience, and it's possible it requires some form of Force sensitivity to do it.

And plain old sniping isn't going to work either, at least not as an offensive maneuver. That kind of sniping requires elaborate planning, and overplanning is the worst thing you can do.

Yeah, excep[t a ghosts planning is,

1) Sneak into base
2) Kill anyone not a grunt
3) blow up base
4) profit

It isnt exactly a carefully setup scenario with synchronized watches and intimate knowledge of where everyone will be at any given moment. He isnt specifically hunting THAT jedi, or even A jedi, just everyone above a certain rank. So its not like he will be focusing on killing that specific fellow for the week proceeding the infiltration attempt. Targets of opportunity more than anything. So that comes under the spur of the moment type stuff hk was talking about. "Oh, theres an officer, boom"

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 12:05 PM
That's something a Jedi would easily sense, though. An example of something a Jedi wouldn't sense would be one of his own troops being commanded to kill him and happily obliging. The key is for the Jedi to be unable to predict your intentions; if they are as simple as blowing up a base, then the Jedi will know. HK is listing tactics less likely to fail, but they all depend on the Jedi being unable to read your mind or predict the future.

I'm not really sure how you would go about blowing up a base without ever planning to blow up a base, but I'm no Jedi hunter.

Traab
2012-09-09, 12:55 PM
That's something a Jedi would easily sense, though. An example of something a Jedi wouldn't sense would be one of his own troops being commanded to kill him and happily obliging. The key is for the Jedi to be unable to predict your intentions; if they are as simple as blowing up a base, then the Jedi will know. HK is listing tactics less likely to fail, but they all depend on the Jedi being unable to read your mind or predict the future.

I'm not really sure how you would go about blowing up a base without ever planning to blow up a base, but I'm no Jedi hunter.

The most the jedi would get in that scenario is likely a feeling of danger, and likely only just before the ghost sets off the bomb. "Wait, somethings wrong. GET DOWN!" /boom. We are talking standard jedi knights here, not freaking yodas or mace windus. They are not near omniscient. They are not constantly reading the minds of every being in a 5 block radius just in case one might be an assassin. The most likely point of discovery is if the ghost spots the jedi and decides to kill him but takes awhile to setup the shot first. Or even ignoring that last bit.

The jedi isnt going to wake up the day before with a vision of an invisible killer hunting him down outside the cantina at 6 am the next morning. He will likely at best feel the danger as the ghost takes aim. Thats the way it works even with people like anakin. He doesnt feel the incoming killer of padme an hour beforehand, he doesnt detect anything until the attempt is already underway and half done. And hk even states indirect attempts to kill the jedi are more likely to work. Instead of trying to shoot one in the head, blow up the entire base around him. Here is how I see it most likely turning out.

/ghost takes aim at the jedi, assuming by his uniform he is important

/jedi detects him

/ghost transmits warning to his fellows that the people in robes can tell when they are being attacked, even from stealth. Maybe he gets caught, maybe he escapes

/other ghosts avoid jedis and take down the base instead.

/jedi get vague warning of imminent danger

/base explodes

/if jedi survives he is plowed under by 1k marines and firebats killing anything thats still twitching.

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 01:40 PM
The most the jedi would get in that scenario is likely a feeling of danger, and likely only just before the ghost sets off the bomb. "Wait, somethings wrong. GET DOWN!" /boom. We are talking standard jedi knights here, not freaking yodas or mace windus. They are not near omniscient.
Well, you're assuming there is already the element of surprise, and if you're saying they're caught by surprise because they didn't sense it in time, then that's circular logic. If the Jedi is caught by surprise, Jedi abilities won't help. But there's always a chance of failure; that doesn't tell us anything about the likelihood of it happening. Theoretically, the Jedi has an infinite amount of time to sense danger. Could sense it even before the thought occurs to anyone. Granted it's just as unreasonable to call it a blanket immunity, but it's pretty damn close.

Let's take an example of Obi-Wan as a padawan. He sensed the Sith from the other side of the galaxy, he just didn't know what he was feeling. He and Qui-Gon both sensed a trap well in advance, even though this is a good example of the enemy behaving unpredictably. They are there to negotiate, and are promptly gassed, shot at, and then essentially invaded. Yet they still escape with relative ease, because they were tipped off by Nute Gunray's apprehension and Obi-Wan's general bad feeling.

They are not constantly reading the minds of every being in a 5 block radius just in case one might be an assassin.
They kind of are though. It's a passive ability. They're in tune with the Force, and the Force is everywhere. So distance doesn't really matter. If there's danger, they'll know.

The most likely point of discovery is if the ghost spots the jedi and decides to kill him but takes awhile to setup the shot first. Or even ignoring that last bit.
But he's already decided to kill the Jedi. It doesn't require him to know he's going to kill a Jedi, specifically - just for the Jedi to be in danger.

The jedi isnt going to wake up the day before with a vision of an invisible killer hunting him down outside the cantina at 6 am the next morning.
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me... There is one case in the comics of a Jedi foreseeing a planetary bombardment a day in advance.

He will likely at best feel the danger as the ghost takes aim. Thats the way it works even with people like anakin. He doesnt feel the incoming killer of padme an hour beforehand, he doesnt detect anything until the attempt is already underway and half done.
He sensed the assassin in time to save Padme - in other words, it worked - and he happened to be distracted at the time. He also sensed his mother's and Padme's deaths more than a week in advance. Luke sensed Han and Leia in danger before they even arrived on Bespin.

And hk even states indirect attempts to kill the jedi are more likely to work. Instead of trying to shoot one in the head, blow up the entire base around him.
That's not what he was talking about. He was talking about attacking the Jedi's padawan or any other companions. The General Zod strategy.

/ghost takes aim at the jedi, assuming by his uniform he is important
Jedi don't wear uniforms. Or is that what you meant? Guy in a bathrobe doesn't look like a general to me. :smallconfused:

/jedi detects him

/ghost transmits warning to his fellows that the people in robes can tell when they are being attacked, even from stealth. Maybe he gets caught, maybe he escapes

/other ghosts avoid jedis and take down the base instead.

/jedi get vague warning of imminent danger

/base explodes
No, see, it wouldn't be a vague warning at this point. By now the Jedi knows an enemy is nearby and would be actively pursuing them and trying to sense where the next attack will be. You're missing the whole point of surprise. Once you are spotted, you no longer have the element of surprise. And you seem to mistake "don't overplan" as "don't plan to kill the Jedi specifically", which actually involves even more planning.

Now, if it were me, I would give the troops conflicting orders. Most would be ordered to retreat if they were spotted, but some would not. The more variety the better. Anything to throw the Jedi off guard; they think everyone is retreating because most of the army actually thinks they're retreating. A small strike force might go unnoticed and manage to destroy the base.

I think one of the most important things is for the person who is doing the planning to not be involved in the actual incident; any individual going one on one against a Jedi isn't going to mask their intentions enough unless they have special training or plot armor. That's another reason Order 66 worked, but even so it won't work on a Jedi with genuine precognition like Yoda.

deuterio12
2012-09-09, 01:58 PM
Isn't Yoda kinda of the best of the best of jedi precognition tough? He's one of a kind, not a measuring stick for the average jedi.



Well, depending on how much of the computer game we bring into this, the Terrans also have quite the industrial capacity.

This. people seem to be forgeting the Dominion did start as an human settling force, specialized in harvesting whatever's useable in a planet and turning it into useable stuff, and didn't change that much since then. Once they start capturing Republic worlds, they'll turn whatever factories there is in terran factories to churn yet more military gear.

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 02:00 PM
Hey, eventually you're going to have to fight Yoda. You can't just wait for him to die 25 years later like Palpatine did.

mangosta71
2012-09-09, 03:55 PM
Let's take an example of Obi-Wan as a padawan. He sensed the Sith from the other side of the galaxy, he just didn't know what he was feeling. He and Qui-Gon both sensed a trap well in advance, even though this is a good example of the enemy behaving unpredictably. They are there to negotiate, and are promptly gassed, shot at, and then essentially invaded. Yet they still escape with relative ease, because they were tipped off by Nute Gunray's apprehension and Obi-Wan's general bad feeling.
Except that he didn't sense a specific individual, or even specifically the Sith. He felt a reverberation in the Force that resulted from someone with a connection to the dark side tampering with events on a galactic scale. He was as surprised as anyone else when Darth Maul appeared in TPM, and again when Palpatine made himself known as Darth Sidious in RotS. And really, the major factor in their escape was the Trade Federation's incompetence. There is nothing in SC to suggest that Dominion troops are anywhere near that incompetent.

They kind of are though. It's a passive ability. They're in tune with the Force, and the Force is everywhere. So distance doesn't really matter. If there's danger, they'll know.
Oh, yeah, totally. That's why Order 66 was such a dismal failure. The Jedi were so in tune with the Force that they couldn't be taken by surprise. They were completely immune.

He sensed the assassin in time to save Padme - in other words, it worked - and he happened to be distracted at the time.
At extremely short range.

He also sensed his mother's and Padme's deaths more than a week in advance.
Nightmares fed to him by Palpatine in order to manipulate him. Not due to any special sense he had.

Jedi don't wear uniforms. Or is that what you meant? Guy in a bathrobe doesn't look like a general to me. :smallconfused:
Actually, the lack of a uniform is exactly what makes them stand out. If he's not in uniform, he's either really high up or a servant, and the deference the other soldiers give him marks him as the former.

No, see, it wouldn't be a vague warning at this point. By now the Jedi knows an enemy is nearby and would be actively pursuing them and trying to sense where the next attack will be. You're missing the whole point of surprise. Once you are spotted, you no longer have the element of surprise. And you seem to mistake "don't overplan" as "don't plan to kill the Jedi specifically", which actually involves even more planning.
Yeah, except that the ghost isn't actually there to kill officers. All he needs to do is shut down the Republic's long-range communications array. Then he bugs out and takes a position close enough to snipe any survivors but far enough to be clear of the explosions while the invisible air squadrons level the base.

Your fallacy is assuming that the entire conflict boils down to a duel between a single ghost and a Jedi. The superior Dominion vehicles annihilate the clones, and the Jedi (assuming he somehow survived the bombardment) is cut down by overwhelming numbers.

DeusMortuusEst
2012-09-09, 04:20 PM
Jedi can usually see anything coming.

[Citation needed.]


And avoiding detection requires extensive knowledge of how Jedi senses work.

Perhaps, or it might just require some knowledge of how to avoid detection from psionic individuals and sensor technology, something that the ghosts are very used to work with and against.


Well, I'm inclined to attribute that to lazy writing and directing. In the Expanded Universe they're shown to be generally not as useless as they are in the films. And by that I mean even padawans can pull spaceships out of stars with only their mind.

And that is something that I'm inclined to call lazy writing. You can't cherry pick what you want to be canon, and if anything the movies supersedes the later books as primary sources.


Hey, eventually you're going to have to fight Yoda. You can't just wait for him to die 25 years later like Palpatine did.

No. Read the OP. We are talking about one battle, about one planet. And if you get Yoda, I'll start warping in protoss allies. Because it's canon that they worked together.

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 04:39 PM
[Citation needed.]
:smallannoyed: Don't make me go on Wookieepedia.

Perhaps, or it might just require some knowledge of how to avoid detection from psionic individuals and sensor technology, something that the ghosts are very used to work with and against.
I thought we already covered this. Actually, I guess we didn't... we covered whether Jedi would be able to detect psionics, not the other way around. But still, the Force is complicated. If they are so easily compatible, and they did have such knowledge, then yes, it could certainly change things quite a bit.

And that is something that I'm inclined to call lazy writing.
Fair enough.

You can't cherry pick what you want to be canon, and if anything the movies supersedes the later books as primary sources.
I'm uh... I'm not. I'm just relaying all the facts, no matter how much they contradict each other.

No. Read the OP. We are talking about one battle, about one planet.
Yeah, but that battle could easily be, say, Kashyyyk, when Yoda is there. I'm just saying.

And if you get Yoda, I'll start warping in protoss allies. Because it's canon that they worked together.
I don't "get" Yoda. I don't care who wins. I'm inclined to think the Republic would lose if we go by the canon numbers and their general incompetence as portrayed in the films. But I believe Jedi are much harder to kill that some people are making them out to be out to be.

Except that he didn't sense a specific individual, or even specifically the Sith. He felt a reverberation in the Force that resulted from someone with a connection to the dark side tampering with events on a galactic scale. He was as surprised as anyone else when Darth Maul appeared in TPM, and again when Palpatine made himself known as Darth Sidious in RotS.
As I said, it was a vague bad feeling. But that shows the scale of a Jedi's senses we're dealing with.[/quote]

And really, the major factor in their escape was the Trade Federation's incompetence.
Not really. They were competent enough to force the Jedi to flee.

Oh, yeah, totally. That's why Order 66 was such a dismal failure. The Jedi were so in tune with the Force that they couldn't be taken by surprise. They were completely immune.
Did you not read my comments on Order 66 at all? :smallconfused:

At extremely short range.
And that matters because... ? Range doesn't matter when it's coming from the next room. Range in general has been established.

Nightmares fed to him by Palpatine in order to manipulate him. Not due to any special sense he had.
Not confirmed, though to be honest I believe it was the case with Padme.

Actually, the lack of a uniform is exactly what makes them stand out. If he's not in uniform, he's either really high up or a servant, and the deference the other soldiers give him marks him as the former.
Eh, fair enough... but to be fair, I did acknowledge this already.
[wuoyr]Yeah, except that the ghost isn't actually there to kill officers. All he needs to do is shut down the Republic's long-range communications array. Then he bugs out and takes a position close enough to snipe any survivors but far enough to be clear of the explosions while the invisible air squadrons level the base.[/quote]
As I said, it doesn't matter what's going on. Jedi have the ability to sense the presence of an intruder. One reason Order 66 worked was because the "intruders" were their own troops.

Your fallacy is assuming that the entire conflict boils down to a duel between a single ghost and a Jedi. The superior Dominion vehicles annihilate the clones, and the Jedi (assuming he somehow survived the bombardment) is cut down by overwhelming numbers.
Uh, no... your fallacy is assuming I was talking about the entire conflict. :smallconfused:

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-09, 04:40 PM
Hey, eventually you're going to have to fight Yoda. You can't just wait for him to die 25 years later like Palpatine did.

I've personally been outright ignoring the idea of any named characters having a part. This isn't everyone in SW versus every human in SC this is a question of military force. Its a slightly more generic version of the respective universe.

If you need say Palps to go conjuring force storms on the Terran Dominion because he's the most hax Force user ever, then that answers the question because militarily the Grand Army of the Republic already lost.


Your fallacy is assuming that the entire conflict boils down to a duel between a single ghost and a Jedi. The superior Dominion vehicles annihilate the clones, and the Jedi (assuming he somehow survived the bombardment) is cut down by overwhelming numbers.

This.

One on one a Jedi can take just about anything in the Terran's ground forces. However in battle they aren't going to take one they are going to be busy blocking suppressing fire from Marines, while Ghosts are picking off high value sniping targets, Siege Tanks are raining death from above, and while doing all of that... two Firebats roast him.

Unless one wishes to argue the Jedi number in the millions (a figure I'm not sure that is supportable) then they just don't have the mass to win a war on their own. A couple of terribly effective strike teams running around to deadly effect yes. The occaisonal heroic leader rallying the troops from defeat, sure. But without support they are at the end of the day unarmored swordsmen with a couple of neat tricks.

So this comes back to the clone armies. Which are well armored infantry against power-armor and invisible psychic snipers, vehicles against actual artillery, and aircraft against cloaked invisible aircraft.

Of course the space end if anything favors the opposite result. The Terrans seemingly only have the Battlecruiser or have to rely on if the Wraith can take out capital ships.

And this all assumes some level of resource parity.

shadow_archmagi
2012-09-09, 04:49 PM
To be fair, although star destroyers are three times bigger than battlecruisers, cruisers seem to have a much better size to gun ratio

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 05:05 PM
I've personally been outright ignoring the idea of any named characters having a part. This isn't everyone in SW versus every human in SC this is a question of military force. Its a slightly more generic version of the respective universe.

If you need say Palps to go conjuring force storms on the Terran Dominion because he's the most hax Force user ever, then that answers the question because militarily the Grand Army of the Republic already lost.
As I said, I was only going over the details. Yoda can see the future with great precision - only having difficulty when another Force user is actively working against him. Other Jedi, even inexperienced ones, have been shown to do the same on occasion.

And as I just said, I was only talking about the survival of the Jedi, not the clones, who would be dead already.

This.
Uh... no.

One on one a Jedi can take just about anything in the Terran's ground forces. However in battle they aren't going to take one they are going to be busy blocking suppressing fire from Marines, while Ghosts are picking off high value sniping targets, Siege Tanks are raining death from above, and while doing all of that... two Firebats roast him.
We weren't talking about an open battle; we were talking about a sabotage operation.

Unless one wishes to argue the Jedi number in the millions (a figure I'm not sure that is supportable) then they just don't have the mass to win a war on their own.
Yeah, we already covered that. Irrelevant.

But without support they are at the end of the day unarmored swordsmen with a couple of neat tricks.
Neat tricks like the ability to bend reality with their minds. :smallconfused:

DeusMortuusEst
2012-09-09, 05:33 PM
There's also a number of powers that terran ghosts has demonstrated that hasn't been mentioned.

Remote viewing, the ability to see through walls, enhanced speed, telekinesis, telepathy, empathy (which they seem to be able to use like the jedi's precog ability in battle), psionic shields (force fields), object reading, setting people on fire with their mind etc.

I don't think that they're that far behind a jedi in versatility. Power-vise I think the average ghost got some catching up to do, but they make up for that by generally carrying around more tech.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-09-09, 05:36 PM
As I said, I was only going over the details. Yoda can see the future with great precision - only having difficulty when another Force user is actively working against him. Other Jedi, even inexperienced ones, have been shown to do the same on occasion.

I think he would dispute great precision

Always in motion is the future hmm?


We weren't talking about an open battle; we were talking about a sabotage operation.

Its the overall scope of things that matter more. Jedi can win individual ops but... they aren't actually invisible. Jedi can and will fail. Especially with mind readers around.

And sabotage even when successful can only go so far, its not like the Terrans have some planet sized superweapon they base their whole stategic forecast around so it that blew up they took a major blow.

And while the Jedi are off running complex high-risk commando ops if the all the clone die by more traditional methods the Jedi have the choice of either running back to the Republic in defeat or reenacting the Jedi Purge by fighting an army by themselves.

This isn't that the Jedi don't have their victories, but wars are never one sided affairs anyways.


Neat tricks like the ability to bend reality with their minds. :smallconfused:

That is more or less the only workable common definition of magic powers anyways.

I remain unimpressed.

Magic's swell, but its all about the specifics.

DaedalusMkV
2012-09-09, 05:53 PM
There's also a number of powers that terran ghosts has demonstrated that hasn't been mentioned.

Remote viewing, the ability to see through walls, enhanced speed, telekinesis, telepathy, empathy (which they seem to be able to use like the jedi's precog ability in battle), psionic shields (force fields), object reading, setting people on fire with their mind etc.

I don't think that they're that far behind a jedi in versatility. Power-vise I think the average ghost got some catching up to do, but they make up for that by generally carrying around more tech.

Note that most Ghosts have one, maybe two of those Powers and a lot of them only have mild telepathy and the psionic physical boosts and all of the ones that do have particularly numerous or powerful abilities have their powers significantly dampened by neural inhibitors in case they lose control or go rogue. They'll lose to Jedi in both versatility and raw power both, with their edge coming from advanced tech (strength-assisting suits, stealth generators, vision enhancing goggles) and better combat training and experience (the average Jedi is a monk with some decent sword training. The average ghost is a veteran assassin and commando with years of combat experience).

In a one-on-one fight, the best Ghosts (Nova, for example) would be maybe able to take on the average Jedi knight given total intiative and superior intel. No Ghost would be able to handle any Master. You'd need large teams or a ton of regular army support to manage it. They also aren't as common as the games lead you to believe; the Dominion canonically has less than 300 Ghosts. At all (Starcraft Ghost: Spectres). Proportionately they're probably even less common than Jedi are in the Grand Army.

That said, if we're keeping it to equal numbers and ignoring space capabilities the Dominion win. Clones are skilled and well equipped, but Marines are probably a match for them one-on-one and the Marines will usually have much better mechanized support and an overall superior array of ground forces. In space? The Dominion's only advantage is their stealth tech, which is assuredly not directly equivalent to Star Wars stealth tech. Starcraft stealth is basically simple light-bending and radar spoofing and canonically detectable by sophisticated thermal sensors (and in-game detectable by a watchful human eye) while Star Wars stealth completely blocks all electromagnetic radiation. The difference is immediately obvious; Ghosts receive radio transmissions and turn on thermal visors to see out of their stealth while Star Wars stealth ships are every bit as blind as they are invisible and can only be detected at all by the gravitational pull of their mass. I'm betting it wouldn't take much to configure Star Wars' already ludicrous sensors (assuming that "detecting life signs" isn't already enough) to see right through the Dominion's rather crude stealth tech.

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 06:06 PM
I think he would dispute great precision

Always in motion is the future hmm?
Doesn't change the stuff he has been able to predict. Dude's never been wrong. And when he talks about the future in motion, it's more along the lines of he can't predict one individual's choice - such as Lando switching sides at the last minute or Anakin falling to the dark side. If someone's choice is certain - someone's desire to kill him, for example - he can see it coming. Although the one case we see was cheap, because it was ONE GUY.

Its the overall scope of things that matter more. Jedi can win individual ops but... they aren't actually invisible. Jedi can and will fail. Especially with mind readers around.
Some Jedi can turn invisible. But you're right, it is about the scope. And so far you are always assuming the objective of every conflict is always the same, when that's not the case. Jedi fight primarily through the Force; sometimes their actions are more subtle. Judging by the films alone - not including invisible Jedi, that is - they can go undetected for as long as they want. Obi-Wan does so at least once a film (until he's a ghost, but even that sort of counts).

And sabotage even when successful can only go so far, its not like the Terrans have some planet sized superweapon they base their whole stategic forecast around so it that blew up they took a major blow.
Now you're talking offensively instead of defensively. It would help if we were on the same page here... :smallconfused:

That is more or less the only workable common definition of magic powers anyways.

I remain unimpressed.

Magic's swell, but its all about the specifics.
The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force...

Traab
2012-09-09, 06:57 PM
Doesn't change the stuff he has been able to predict. Dude's never been wrong. And when he talks about the future in motion, it's more along the lines of he can't predict one individual's choice - such as Lando switching sides at the last minute or Anakin falling to the dark side. If someone's choice is certain - someone's desire to kill him, for example - he can see it coming. Although the one case we see was cheap, because it was ONE GUY.

Some Jedi can turn invisible. But you're right, it is about the scope. And so far you are always assuming the objective of every conflict is always the same, when that's not the case. Jedi fight primarily through the Force; sometimes their actions are more subtle. Judging by the films alone - not including invisible Jedi, that is - they can go undetected for as long as they want. Obi-Wan does so at least once a film (until he's a ghost, but even that sort of counts).

Now you're talking offensively instead of defensively. It would help if we were on the same page here... :smallconfused:

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force...

1) The problem is, we arent talking about yoda, we are talking random jedi knight, not even a master. And anakin got vague warnings. He knew his mother was in pain, that she needed him. He didnt know what happened, when it happened, where it happened, or what he had to do to stop it. So if some jedi knight sees visions of himself being shot a week before the actual mission happens, he doesnt know any of the details, just that he is going to get a bullet in him at some point. Could be today, could be next week, could be 5 years from now. These visions arent highly detailed, so while he may see himself getting shot, or his outpost getting blown up, it isnt likely he would see both, and both are going to be attempted. He doesnt get to look at the script ahead of time and have editorial powers on what happens.

2) The only times I have seen jedi "go undetected" is when they are doing metal gear solid level stuff like climbing through ductwork and stuff like that. Meanwhile a ghost is capable of walking right down the hall full of people and not getting spotted so long as he doesnt punch someone in the face, or get a bucket of paint dropped over him.

3) yeah yeah yeah, and "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." Phrases like that dont actually mean it literally. Oppenheimer didnt become the incarnation of the grim reaper, and the force may be far stronger than the ability to destroy planets, but the jedi cant use the force to that extent anyways, so its a moot point.

Bottom line, I think you are ascribing levels of power and capability to the jedi that just arent there except in the most ludicrous of written version for the biggest stars in the series. Your average jedi isnt that good. Earlier you mentioned the anakin saving padme thing. Yes he got there in time, the point is, he didnt see it coming from an hour away. He didnt even see it from a minute away. He got warning about 5 seconds before padme was dead, while the assassination attempt was in progress. That aint alot of advance warning. We see no sign he got any advance warning about being half melted by lava and having 3/4 of his limbs cut off either, he went into that fight believing he would win, and guess what? He was wrong. And thats anakin, not some random jedi mook. Jedi can be wrong, that can be fooled, they can miss things, they can misinterpret, they are mere mortals, not omnipotent godlings able to do anything they want and defeat everyone. In other words, they arent ME! I made sure to wipe out all fictional avatars of myself, and I dont like you trying to turn these jedi pretenders into the 5th coming of Traab. (dont ask about 1 through 4)

JCarter426
2012-09-09, 07:18 PM
1) The problem is, we arent talking about yoda, we are talking random jedi knight, not even a master. And anakin got vague warnings. He knew his mother was in pain, that she needed him. He didnt know what happened, when it happened, where it happened, or what he had to do to stop it. So if some jedi knight sees visions of himself being shot a week before the actual mission happens, he doesnt know any of the details, just that he is going to get a bullet in him at some point. Could be today, could be next week, could be 5 years from now. These visions arent highly detailed, so while he may see himself getting shot, or his outpost getting blown up, it isnt likely he would see both, and both are going to be attempted. He doesnt get to look at the script ahead of time and have editorial powers on what happens.

Bottom line, I think you are ascribing levels of power and capability to the jedi that just arent there except in the most ludicrous of written version for the biggest stars in the series. Your average jedi isnt that good.
As I said before, if we're talking about an average Jedi, Yoda is part of that average. And there's no reason it couldn't be someone close to Yoda's level anyway, given it's the Jedi masters who command fleets... but fine, it's not Yoda. It's still a Jedi with various powers that likely include some form of telepathy and precognition. You can't just shrug it off and say all the other Jedi can barely manage to deflect blasters, because that's simply not true. Obi-Wan and Anakin were beyond that as mere padawans, as are several other padawans in the Expanded Universe and in the Clone Wars TV show (at least I believe so, don't watch the bloody thing). And it's not a case of the main characters being the exception, because they feature the useless guys who we only see in the background doing a lot more than we ever see them do in the background.
[/quote]Earlier you mentioned the anakin saving padme thing. Yes he got there in time, the point is, he didnt see it coming from an hour away. He didnt even see it from a minute away. He got warning about 5 seconds before padme was dead, while the assassination attempt was in progress. That aint alot of advance warning.[/quote]
Yes, but you're forgetting the Force has a way of working out. Anakin arrived in time to see his mother one last time. He arrived just in time to save Padme, and as I noted before that's a terrible example because he and Obi-Wan were distracting each other with their combined general incompetence... but it still worked!

2) The only times I have seen jedi "go undetected" is when they are doing metal gear solid level stuff like climbing through ductwork and stuff like that. Meanwhile a ghost is capable of walking right down the hall full of people and not getting spotted so long as he doesnt punch someone in the face, or get a bucket of paint dropped over him.
Still effective. And there are Jedi who can turn invisible, as I said.

3) yeah yeah yeah, and "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." Phrases like that dont actually mean it literally. Oppenheimer didnt become the incarnation of the grim reaper, and the force may be far stronger than the ability to destroy planets, but the jedi cant use the force to that extent anyways, so its a moot point.
They can though. Either through the obvious overpowered Expanded Universe means, or more subtle ones like making a one in a million shot.

We see no sign he got any advance warning about being half melted by lava and having 3/4 of his limbs cut off either, he went into that fight believing he would win, and guess what? He was wrong. And thats anakin, not some random jedi mook. Jedi can be wrong, that can be fooled, they can miss things, they can misinterpret, they are mere mortals, not omnipotent godlings able to do anything they want and defeat everyone. In other words, they arent ME! I made sure to wipe out all fictional avatars of myself, and I dont like you trying to turn these jedi pretenders into the 5th coming of Traab. (dont ask about 1 through 4)
Strictly speaking, Anakin wasn't a Jedi by then. He had fallen to the dark side and lost any sense of judgement. It has been addressed in the Expanded Universe that you can't force a vision - it has to come to you naturally. And Sith aren't really about going with the flow.

In any case arguing that one Jedi can't defeat an army isn't convincing me one sniper can kill any Jedi.

Traab
2012-09-09, 07:31 PM
As I said before, if we're talking about an average Jedi, Yoda is part of that average. And there's no reason it couldn't be someone close to Yoda's level anyway, given it's the Jedi masters who command fleets... but fine, it's not Yoda. It's still a Jedi with various powers that likely include some form of telepathy and precognition. You can't just shrug it off and say all the other Jedi can barely manage to deflect blasters, because that's simply not true. Obi-Wan and Anakin were beyond that as mere padawans, as are several other padawans in the Expanded Universe and in the Clone Wars TV show (at least I believe so, don't watch the bloody thing). And it's not a case of the main characters being the exception, because they feature the useless guys who we only see in the background doing a lot more than we ever see them do in the background.
Earlier you mentioned the anakin saving padme thing. Yes he got there in time, the point is, he didnt see it coming from an hour away. He didnt even see it from a minute away. He got warning about 5 seconds before padme was dead, while the assassination attempt was in progress. That aint alot of advance warning.[/quote]
Yes, but you're forgetting the Force has a way of working out. Anakin arrived in time to see his mother one last time. He arrived just in time to save Padme, and as I noted before that's a terrible example because he and Obi-Wan were distracting each other with their combined general incompetence... but it still worked!

Still effective. And there are Jedi who can turn invisible, as I said.

They can though. Either through the obvious overpowered Expanded Universe means, or more subtle ones like making a one in a million shot.

Strictly speaking, Anakin wasn't a Jedi by then. He had fallen to the dark side and lost any sense of judgement. It has been addressed in the Expanded Universe that you can't force a vision - it has to come to you naturally. And Sith aren't really about going with the flow.

In any case arguing that one Jedi can't defeat an army isn't convincing me one sniper can kill any Jedi.[/QUOTE]


And I even admitted to the difficulty involved in the ghost winning. But even if he cant kill the jedi directly, there is no real reason beyond plot armor force visions to decide unilaterally that he couldnt sabotage the rest of the base and blow it up underneath the jedi while all he has to work with is a premonition of danger.

Yes yoda is a part of the average, he is the very highest end of the scale and he will NOT be there. The size of the forces we are talking about are jedi knight/padawan levels of command at best. Not requiring the head of the freaking jedi order to show up in person to take command, not even to involve ANY member of the council, or even the random jedi masters that are also floating about. So you cant talk about what the 900 year old masters are capable of and declare victory, because your average knight wont be on that level. Not even close. That doesnt make them defenseless, it just makes them less than near omnipotent beings like you keep claiming.

They wont be getting advanced and detailed warnings a day ahead of the attack, at best we will get lots of, "I have a bad feeling about this" type exclamations, like obi wan had in episode 1. He had a bad feeling. He didnt know the trade federation would try to kill them, he didnt know HOW they would try to kill him, he didnt just see a path to avoid it. He just had a bad feeling. Thats probably the best example of what kind of reaction the jedi in charge would have in this scenario. Its a similar setup. There is danger, they can feel it, but they dont know what form it will take. And you have a padawan ready to take the trials and a jedi knight.

That being said, it is quite likely that the ghost WOULD fail to directly kill the jedi in command. We see plenty of times where jedi sense the incoming attack and avoid or deflect it in an instant. That doesnt stop the ghost from killing any other officers, or setting the entire base to blow. In fact, a smart ghost would setup bombs with timers and remote triggers BEFORE trying to kill officers, as thats when he is most likely to get spotted and wouldnt have the time to rig things to blow afterwards. So if he gets caught or killed, the bombs go off anyways.

Bottom line, I just dont think the jedi will in general do much more than make this less of a walk in the park for the ghosts. It will add some potential danger like in the missions where we have to dodge flying observer units and such to avoid getting exposed and slaughtered. Difficult, but doable. And before you even say it, while the ghosts wouldnt know about the jedi ahead of time, they still would most likely go in expecting there to be some form of detector for him to avoid.

MLai
2012-09-09, 10:46 PM
You two can stop having your little Jedi-vs-Ghost spat. Daedalus has answered the question clearly. I'll sum it up:

(1) Less than 300 Ghosts in the entire Dominion. They're not an army. They will be used very sparingly and for very specialized assignments.

(2) As such, as soon as the Dominion learns that the GAR has certain seemingly psychic officers who put Ghost operations at great risk of failure, it will immediately become unacceptable to ever deploy a Ghost when 1 of these psychic GAR officers are known to be present. Jedi vs Ghost duels will not happen.

(3) As Daedalus clarified, Ghosts rely on optical/radar camouflage, not total camouflage. Same for Wraiths. This is the sort of detail that is actually relevant, because this means we're not talking about SW-level advanced cloaking/ counter-cloaking. This means that Wraiths/Ghosts will surprise GAR for 1 or 2 initial engagements, and from that point onwards all GAR fleets and armies will have non-optical and non-radar sensors as standard. It will not be expensive or rare.

(4) Thank god, this thread can move on from Jedi vs Ghost.

KingOfLaughter
2012-09-09, 11:41 PM
So, on the ship vs ship side of things, though the SW ships may be larger, how many are there, and how many can they produce in a time frame? I feel like the terran are capable of producing BCs faster than the GAR can produce Star Destroyers, and in the end the number of BC would overwhelm the SDs, not to mention the various support crafts that can produced and the fact that they all take minimal time.

Also, on ground warfare, again the terran can just chug out troops it takes about 2 minutes (probably less) to get a marine fully geared, with cigar in mouth, assuming the SC2 intro cinematic is anything to believe. The GAR takes what, 10 years to manufacture one group, sure it's a couple thousand or million, but in 10 years the terran probably decimated Kamino anyways.

DaedalusMkV
2012-09-10, 12:12 AM
So, on the ship vs ship side of things, though the SW ships may be larger, how many are there, and how many can they produce in a time frame? I feel like the terran are capable of producing BCs faster than the GAR can produce Star Destroyers, and in the end the number of BC would overwhelm the SDs, not to mention the various support crafts that can produced and the fact that they all take minimal time.

The Republic has thousands of Star Destroyers by the end of the Clone Wars. As in, thousands of Venators (about a thousand were deployed at the Battle of Coruscant alone) each of which would be worth, by a very conservative estimate, two or three Battlecruisers each. That's not even getting into slighly more obscure ships like the Dreadnaughts, which the Old Republic used as a line ship before the initial production of the Star Destroyers. They were relatively uncommon thanks to the Republic's disarmament, but still availablle in numbers large enough to see dozens of them in service about 40 years after the start of the Clone Wars, about half a century after they became totally obsolete. And that's just Republic forces. Kuat alone has over a hundred Star Destroyers in its planetary defense fleet, and individual system fleets would equal or exceed the power of the Republic Navy in total. Compare that to the Dominion, where a hundred Battlecruisers was a substantial part of their overall space forces. They're outnumbered at least twenty to one, and outmatched more like fifty to one.

As for production, Kuat Drive Yards alone can produce nearly a hundred Star Destroyers a year, those being the even bigger and meaner Imperial-class. Though they are the largest shipyard in the galaxy, they're far from the only one. You'd probably find overall yearly Star Destroyer production in the early years of the Empire to exceed all of the Battlecruisers that the Terran Dominion has in service at their peak. By something approximating an order of magnitude. They would have needed to be producing at least 1000 Imperial Class Star Destroyers per year to match the number they had during the movies. Actually more, since the ISD wasn't introduced until about five years after the rise of the Empire, give or take. More like 1500 or so. Unless the average lifespan of a Dominion Battlecruiser is about four months, there's no way in hell they're matching the Republic's production, either.

KingOfLaughter
2012-09-10, 12:29 AM
The Republic has thousands of Star Destroyers by the end of the Clone Wars. As in, thousands of Venators (about a thousand were deployed at the Battle of Coruscant alone) each of which would be worth, by a very conservative estimate, two or three Battlecruisers each. That's not even getting into slighly more obscure ships like the Dreadnaughts, which the Old Republic used as a line ship before the initial production of the Star Destroyers. They were relatively uncommon thanks to the Republic's disarmament, but still availablle in numbers large enough to see dozens of them in service about 40 years after the start of the Clone Wars, about half a century after they became totally obsolete. And that's just Republic forces. Kuat alone has over a hundred Star Destroyers in its planetary defense fleet, and individual system fleets would equal or exceed the power of the Republic Navy in total. Compare that to the Dominion, where a hundred Battlecruisers was a substantial part of their overall space forces. They're outnumbered at least twenty to one, and outmatched more like fifty to one.

As for production, Kuat Drive Yards alone can produce nearly a hundred Star Destroyers a year, those being the even bigger and meaner Imperial-class. Though they are the largest shipyard in the galaxy, they're far from the only one. You'd probably find overall yearly Star Destroyer production in the early years of the Empire to exceed all of the Battlecruisers that the Terran Dominion has in service at their peak. By something approximating an order of magnitude. They would have needed to be producing at least 1000 Imperial Class Star Destroyers per year to match the number they had during the movies. Actually more, since the ISD wasn't introduced until about five years after the rise of the Empire, give or take. More like 1500 or so. Unless the average lifespan of a Dominion Battlecruiser is about four months, there's no way in hell they're matching the Republic's production, either.

I have limited SW knowledge, and guessed they would take longer to produce... However I see my one point is moot. :P

DaedalusMkV
2012-09-10, 12:57 AM
I have limited SW knowledge, and guessed they would take longer to produce... However I see my one point is moot. :P

They do, kina. It's just that the Republic is so much bigger than the Dominion that an overall comparison is almost nonsensical. Coruscant along has a trillion inhabitants. That's trillion. With a t. Tarsonis, the most populous world of the Confederacy? Less than three billion. Number of planets controlled by the Dominion? Less than a hundred, exact number never stated. Most of those with far less than a billion inhabitants. Coruscant and the infrastructure required to support it alone outnumbers and outproduces the entire Terran dominion. By an order of magnitude. It represents less than one percent of the Republic's industrial capacity.

Get the discrepancy now? In overall terms, it's kind of like in modern times pitting Monaco against the United states.

KingOfLaughter
2012-09-10, 01:20 AM
They do, kina. It's just that the Republic is so much bigger than the Dominion that an overall comparison is almost nonsensical. Coruscant along has a trillion inhabitants. That's trillion. With a t. Tarsonis, the most populous world of the Confederacy? Less than three billion. Number of planets controlled by the Dominion? Less than a hundred, exact number never stated. Most of those with far less than a billion inhabitants. Coruscant and the infrastructure required to support it alone outnumbers and outproduces the entire Terran dominion. By an order of magnitude. It represents less than one percent of the Republic's industrial capacity.

Get the discrepancy now? In overall terms, it's kind of like in modern times pitting Monaco against the United states.

Heh. Yeah. :P

On the destructive power of the C14 gauss Rifle (Marine basic weapon), Clones are probable what, 6ft tall? Jim Raynor is probably about that as well, and in this picture the gun is damn near his size, so in sheer fire power I think that thing could shred most GAR ground forces.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100418205442/starcraft/images/a/a4/Heaven%27s_Devils_SC2_Art3.jpg
From the SC Wikia, it's a photo from SC2 campaign. The C14 is the large weapon the guy in back is holding.

deuterio12
2012-09-10, 05:30 AM
They do, kina. It's just that the Republic is so much bigger than the Dominion that an overall comparison is almost nonsensical. Coruscant along has a trillion inhabitants. That's trillion. With a t. Tarsonis, the most populous world of the Confederacy? Less than three billion. Number of planets controlled by the Dominion? Less than a hundred, exact number never stated. Most of those with far less than a billion inhabitants. Coruscant and the infrastructure required to support it alone outnumbers and outproduces the entire Terran dominion. By an order of magnitude. It represents less than one percent of the Republic's industrial capacity.


Didn't stop the Republic from being brought down by an handful of rebels, a ragtag fleet, three jedis and a few planets under their control. Unless I missed something and said rebels had trillions of troops and thousands of ships and planets to support them.

Parra
2012-09-10, 05:35 AM
Didn't stop the Republic from being brought down by an handful of rebels, a ragtag fleet, three jedis and a few planets under their control. Unless I missed something and said rebels had trillions of troops and thousands of ships and planets to support them.

Try to think of it like a Keystone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_(architecture)).

deuterio12
2012-09-10, 05:47 AM
Try to think of it like a Keystone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_(architecture)).

What's stoping the Dominion from going after said Keystone then? They're pretty good at chirurgical strikes after all.

Aragehaor
2012-09-10, 06:41 AM
Didn't stop the Republic from being brought down by an handful of rebels, a ragtag fleet, three jedis and a few planets under their control. Unless I missed something and said rebels had trillions of troops and thousands of ships and planets to support them.
The Republic didn't fall to a handful of rebels, It only 'fell' in the sense that the emperor reformed it into an empire.

What's stoping the Dominion from going after said Keystone then? They're pretty good at chirurgical strikes after all.

Largely because the 'Keystone' doesn't exist in the republic - there is no emperor holding it all together to kill or death star to destroy (Though, destroying the death star itself wouldn't destroy the empire.) There is only the republic.


There is also the matter that - according to the OP, this battle takes place on one planet and the space immediately around it. Even if this was the empire and it had a 'keystone' you could destroy and make it fall apart, it certainly wouldn't be present for some minor conflict in the outer rim.

deuterio12
2012-09-10, 06:59 AM
Main point still stands. Even with the suposed industrial and jedi/sith numeric superiority of the Empire/Republic, they failed to stop the plans of an handful of rebels.

Also destroying the Death Star does destroy the enemy when they conveniently put all their top leaders that are holding the side togheter inside.:smallamused:

So, since the emperor had to mobilize himself and his death star in the frontline personally, it's proof that he couldn't simply drown the rebels in ships and stormtroopers.

shadow_archmagi
2012-09-10, 07:27 AM
Also I thought we weren't bringing infrastructure into this?

LaughingGnoll
2012-09-10, 07:31 AM
We weren't talking about an open battle; we were talking about a sabotage operation.

Actually, the OP is discussing open battle, or at least one side charging the reinforced positions of the other. The whole situation of a Ghost sneaking into Republic command centers to snipe the officers kind of just wormed its way in here.

So, after spending a weekend re-watching the entire SW Saga and watching cutscenes in the Starcraft games, I'm inclined to think that the issue of Marine/Marauder/Firebat vs. Clones goes heavily in favor of the Dominion troops. The entire premise of armor in the Star Wars universe revolves around energy dissipation/dampening, though it isn't effective at doing this at all. Revenge of the Sith shows clones getting hit in the shoulder or in the chest and falling down and yelling, which I would assume means they're dead. Droid-shots which get reflected back at them seem to be enough to take them out as well, so it would seem that clone armor isn't even a good match to the weapons within the Star Wars universe. It was already discussed, so I'm not sure the argument is viable, but it would seem that the Ewoks' spears and arrows were enough to seriously maim, if not kill Stormtroopers. Seeing as the Marine's rifles are loaded with armor piercing spikes, it's probably safe to say that it could tear through Clone armor.

On the other side, the Terran armor is designed to reduce all-around damage. It's suited for combat against Protoss laser-technology, but still holds up against Zerg attacks, all while shielding the Marine inside from any outside radiation, chemicals, and biological threats. So it's probably safe to assume that it will take a LOT of plasma-bolts from the Clones to put a Marine out of commission.

I also noticed from one of the cutscenes in Starcraft II, "Card to Play", the C-14 rifles, as if they weren't badass enough, also have a bayonette which easily cuts through the carapace of a Zergling. So even if a Marine should run out of ammunition, he can probably still kill a lot of clones that way.

Traab
2012-09-10, 07:33 AM
The sheer size of the empire is irrelevant to the discussion anyways, as this is a specific number of units against each other, not the entire galactic republic versus the entire dominion. And until you reach capitol ship units, the terrans seem to have the advantage. Not an overwhelming one, but still they have the edge.

JCarter426
2012-09-10, 07:42 AM
Actually, the OP is discussing open battle, or at least one side charging the reinforced positions of the other. The whole situation of a Ghost sneaking into Republic command centers to snipe the officers kind of just wormed its way in here.
Yes, the conversation had drifted. As it continues to drift. :smalltongue:

Traab
2012-09-10, 07:52 AM
Its not so much that it drifted as those of us extolling the virtues of terran tech pointed out that the stealth units terrans have make slaughtering the empire far easier. And ghosts could completely cripple a base before the attack even happens with a bit of effort. From there we got into an argument about jedi versus ghosts. That still wasnt a drift really, just an argument over the possibility of a counter to ghost slaughter. I think the drifting was when we went off topic into production rates and resource bases which have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Aragehaor
2012-09-10, 07:58 AM
Main point still stands. Even with the suposed industrial and jedi/sith numeric superiority of the Empire/Republic, they failed to stop the plans of an handful of rebels.No, it doesn't, your main point doesn't stand because its completely irrelevant to this discussion. The empire's industrial strength is neither challenged by this or relevant to the scenario. Nor for that matter is the republic's.


Also destroying the Death Star does destroy the enemy when they conveniently put all their top leaders that are holding the side togheter inside.:smallamused:Irrelevant.


So, since the emperor had to mobilize himself and his death star in the frontline personally, it's proof that he couldn't simply drown the rebels in ships and stormtroopers.He certainly could, Endor was a trap to lure the rebels so he could - quite literally - drown them in ships. The reason it was not done before if because the rebels had never brought all their strength to a single location before.


That said, given only a single battle on a single planet - I'd give this to the dominion. due to initial advantages such as stealth, superior ground infantry, and at absolute best a moderate republic presence.

DaedalusMkV
2012-09-10, 12:55 PM
That said, given only a single battle on a single planet - I'd give this to the dominion. due to initial advantages such as stealth, superior ground infantry, and at absolute best a moderate republic presence.

As long as the Republic can't call in any Capitol ships, this. While the stealth is, as I've laid out in this discussion before, a paper tiger against a lot of sci-fi threats because of writers loving to give ludicrous abilities to their sensor equipment, the simple fact is that the Dominion employs better personal weapons, armour and tactics in ground combat to the Republic and the Republic's space combat doctrine is utterly reliant on capitol ships. If they're out of the picture, all the Republic has left is piddly frigates and poorly-armed transport ships. An Acclamator is going to get its ass kicked by a Battlecruiser or a Wraith wing on account of its abysmal armour, poor shields and pathetic weaponry.

Now, the Republic gets a single Acclamator? Things change immensely. One Acclamator and its fighter wing will kick the snot out of a Battlecruiser and Wraith wing (again, all it takes to see through Dominion stealth is to switch to your 'lifesign' sensors), then annihilate the Dominion forces with orbital bombardments. Which kind of takes the fun out of the discussion, I guess...

So yeah, the larger the conflct gets in scale the better the Republic does. In the skirmish presented by the OP, Dominion wins due to a lack of Republic space presence. The larger the space forces grow the more line ships the Republic gets and the Dominion has nothing to counter a Star Destroyer force barring massive numerical superiority.

hamishspence
2012-09-10, 01:38 PM
If the Empire can't see through its own stealth with "life-sign sensors" why should we presume it can see through that of the Dominion?

Coidzor
2012-09-10, 01:47 PM
Also, if they can, would they think to do so before the initial surprise had its effect? If not, how long would it take them to work it out?

hamishspence
2012-09-10, 01:50 PM
An Acclamator is going to get its ass kicked by a Battlecruiser or a Wraith wing on account of its abysmal armour, poor shields and pathetic weaponry.

Now, the Republic gets a single Acclamator? Things change immensely. One Acclamator and its fighter wing will kick the snot out of a Battlecruiser and Wraith wing (again, all it takes to see through Dominion stealth is to switch to your 'lifesign' sensors), then annihilate the Dominion forces with orbital bombardments.

I'm guessing the second example was meant to be "Venator".

Acclamators have orbital bombardment capability- not quite as much as a Venator, Victory, or other big ship though. There exist starfighter-carrier versions of the Acclamator as well.

How would an uncloaked Wraith do vs the various kinds of Old Republic starfighter? Do they look particularly manueverable in the cutscenes?

SoC175
2012-09-10, 01:56 PM
As the engagement gets larger, the trooper's superior training and discipline will start to tell. As evidenced in their superior tactics of walking in formations openly across the battlefield like during the days of the good old muskets? :smallconfused:

There tactical abilities as evidenced in the movies are so laughable that a present day force could beat them.

lt_murgen
2012-09-10, 02:29 PM
Main point still stands. Even with the suposed industrial and jedi/sith numeric superiority of the Empire/Republic, they failed to stop the plans of an handful of rebels.
.

Actually, the simplest truth is that the Rebels served a key role in the Empires plans, giving him ample reason to continue the high taxation and military buildup. There is no evidence that the Emperor himself even cared about the Rebellion at all apart from Luke Skywalker.


As evidenced in their superior tactics of walking in formations openly across the battlefield like during the days of the good old muskets? :smallconfused:

There tactical abilities as evidenced in the movies are so laughable that a present day force could beat them.

I would argue that the tactics demonstrated in Revenge of the Sith provides evidence to the contrary. The defense of Kachiro on Kashyyyk is a primer in asymmetrical warfare- use of special forces, intellegence gathering, coordination with native troops, funneling, ambushes, and so on.

hamishspence
2012-09-10, 02:34 PM
In The Force Unleashed, he's a bit upset when the Rebel leaders escape, and gives Vader a ticking off for, basically, giving the Rebellion a huge start (via his Secret Apprentice).

Generally he rates the Rebellion pretty low in importance though.

lt_murgen
2012-09-10, 02:50 PM
In The Force Unleashed, he's a bit upset when the Rebel leaders escape, and gives Vader a ticking off for, basically, giving the Rebellion a huge start (via his Secret Apprentice).

Generally he rates the Rebellion pretty low in importance though.

Precisely, in ANH, he was not even talked about, other than saying he had abolished the Senate. In ESB, he used the holocomm to tell Vader to go find Luke, not to ask how the battle went. In RoTJ, he could have had the Imperial Navy attack, but chose not to so Luke would watch, and fall to the dark side.

Simply put, Palpatine had no interest in the Rebellion.

But all of that is off topic.

deuterio12
2012-09-10, 03:43 PM
No, it doesn't, your main point doesn't stand because its completely irrelevant to this discussion. The empire's industrial strength is neither challenged by this or relevant to the scenario. Nor for that matter is the republic's.Irrelevant.

Funny how direct proof that the empire couldn't channel its industrial strength if their existence was in risk is called "irrelevant".



He certainly could, Endor was a trap to lure the rebels so he could - quite literally - drown them in ships. The reason it was not done before if because the rebels had never brought all their strength to a single location before.

Lesson #48 of the Competent Commander: You shall never put real bait in a trap. Failing to just put a pretender as bait, the emperor and his entire officer corpses fail at strategy.



Actually, the simplest truth is that the Rebels served a key role in the Empires plans, giving him ample reason to continue the high taxation and military buildup. There is no evidence that the Emperor himself even cared about the Rebellion at all apart from Luke Skywalker.

You know, I just have to love how the ability to repeatedly understimate your enemy all the way you're being thrown into an exploding pit is considered a good trait.:smalltongue:

Because now all the Dominion needs to do is play low ball and at best the republic never deploys anywhere near enough troops to fight them, in the best they deploy their leadership heads on the frontline as bait to be killed (jedis generals were quite loving of that as well after all).

GolemsVoice
2012-09-10, 03:47 PM
How would an uncloaked Wraith do vs the various kinds of Old Republic starfighter? Do they look particularly manueverable in the cutscenes?

Wiki says Wraiths are space superiority fighters, and in game, they are fragile, but have wicked Air-to-Air missiles. The Wiki further describes them as "agile" and "high-speed craft". So I'd say they'v at least got a decent chance.

Aragehaor
2012-09-10, 03:59 PM
Funny how direct proof that the empire couldn't channel its industrial strength if their existence was in risk is called "irrelevant". Alright, Tell me then - in what way is industrial strength (Which the empire totally could and did channel, by the way) is in any way relevant to a single battle on a single planet that the republic - not the empire - is fighting.



Lesson #48 of the Competent Commander: You shall never put real bait in a trap. Failing to just put a pretender as bait, the emperor and his entire officer corpses fail at strategy.The stupidity of the plan is irrelevant, the dominion isnt fighting the emperor - and moreover even if it was i'd like to know how you think it'd manage to destroy the death star. Stealth would be neutralized before it came to the death star due to how starcraft stealth works - and in space both the empire and the republic can absolutely shred the dominion to bits.



You know, I just have to love how the ability to repeatedly understimate your enemy all the way you're being thrown into an exploding pit is considered a good trait.:smalltongue:

Because now all the Dominion needs to do is play low ball and at best the republic never deploys anywhere near enough troops to fight them, in the best they deploy their leadership heads on the frontline as bait to be killed (jedis generals were quite loving of that as well after all).If, somehow - the republic deploys their entire leadership on the front line - there would be a space presence bigger then the dominion could ever hope to match. But - for the sake of argument lets say for some reason they sent their entire leadership to some minor rim conflict with only one capital ship.

Lets even pretend the dominion has its complete armada there so it can manage to kill it, Alright - you've really dealt a blow to the Jedi! Even though they certainly can keep training students, their masters are all dead! Huzzah - oh wait, whats that? The republic simply elects new leaders to replace the ones you killed? Ah, and hey - since you killed so many important people it seems you riled the republic up and now their sending about one thousand capital ships to annihilate you!


Guess that didn't work too well.

DaedalusMkV
2012-09-10, 04:17 PM
If the Empire can't see through its own stealth with "life-sign sensors" why should we presume it can see through that of the Dominion?

Again, Star Wars stealth does not equal Starcraft stealth. You know how Ghosts and Wraiths can see when stealthed? And receive radio transmissions? Yeah, that's all you need to know right there. It guarantees that at the very least they've got infrared and radio waves going in and out, and probably a few more types of radiation too. We know that Ghost stealth blocks visible light and Wraiths additionally block radar, plus heat-stealthing built into both to help with infrared detection, but I doubt they're going much beyond that. Star Wars stealth is absolute and total blocking of the entire electromagnetic spectrum, because anything less does not work against Star Wars sensors. It is very uncommon in terms of actual use because total stealth like that means that there's no way to see out or communicate with the outside world, which is obviously somewhat troublesome. The reason that Star Wars stealth detection is so rare and expensive is that you need a device capable of precisely measuring gravitational disturbances to locate mass, which by definition would see through all possible forms of stealth short of not actually being there. Or use Jedi to sense the minds of the guys on board. That worked too.

Not all stealth is created equal, just like not all sensors are created equal. The only way Starcraft stealth could spoof Star Wars sensors and still be able to see out of their own shrouds and receive radio transmissions is if we completely disregard all of the laws of physics and assume that magical pixies are sorting out friendly electromagnetic waves from unfriendly electromagnetic waves.

Mando Knight
2012-09-10, 08:51 PM
Lets even pretend the dominion has its complete armada there so it can manage to kill it, Alright - you've really dealt a blow to the Jedi! Even though they certainly can keep training students, their masters are all dead! Huzzah - oh wait, whats that? The republic simply elects new leaders to replace the ones you killed? Ah, and hey - since you killed so many important people it seems you riled the republic up and now their sending about one thousand capital ships to annihilate you!


Guess that didn't work too well.

Actually, that means they now just moved Palpatine's schedule up a few years. Congratulations, you've managed to create a crisis large enough to make the Senate elect him the First Galactic Emperor.

shadow_archmagi
2012-09-10, 09:17 PM
literally drown them in ships

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I can just imagine Luke flailing around in a bathtub full of TIE Fighters, drowning, and a stormtrooper commenting "God this is an expensive way to kill people. Why don't we shoot them?"

Traab
2012-09-10, 09:20 PM
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I can just imagine Luke flailing around in a bathtub full of TIE Fighters, drowning, and a stormtrooper commenting "God this is an expensive way to kill people. Why don't we shoot them?"

If you keep talking back to Aragehaor like that, he will leave you as he found you. Unemployed, in greenland!

JCarter426
2012-09-10, 11:08 PM
Again, Star Wars stealth does not equal Starcraft stealth. You know how Ghosts and Wraiths can see when stealthed? And receive radio transmissions? Yeah, that's all you need to know right there. It guarantees that at the very least they've got infrared and radio waves going in and out, and probably a few more types of radiation too. We know that Ghost stealth blocks visible light and Wraiths additionally block radar, plus heat-stealthing built into both to help with infrared detection, but I doubt they're going much beyond that. Star Wars stealth is absolute and total blocking of the entire electromagnetic spectrum, because anything less does not work against Star Wars sensors. It is very uncommon in terms of actual use because total stealth like that means that there's no way to see out or communicate with the outside world, which is obviously somewhat troublesome. The reason that Star Wars stealth detection is so rare and expensive is that you need a device capable of precisely measuring gravitational disturbances to locate mass, which by definition would see through all possible forms of stealth short of not actually being there.
That's a good point, and the Republic obviously has that technology as this is how Obi-Wan knew Kamino was still there. Granted that's an entire planet, but he did figure it out before he left the library. That suggests either the sensors have extreme range or there is an existing network of sensors throughout the galaxy - possibly a once a year inspection, but the point is there are craft with that technology drifting throughout the galaxy.

Aragehaor
2012-09-10, 11:42 PM
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. i only used it once. :smalltongue:


I can just imagine Luke flailing around in a bathtub full of TIE Fighters, drowning, and a stormtrooper commenting "God this is an expensive way to kill people. Why don't we shoot them?"Well, we tried that approach before and it certainly didn't get us anywhere - at least this way is effective. :smallamused:


That's a good point, and the Republic obviously has that technology as this is how Obi-Wan knew Kamino was still there. Granted that's an entire planet, but he did figure it out before he left the library. That suggests either the sensors have extreme range or there is an existing network of sensors throughout the galaxy - possibly a once a year inspection, but the point is there are craft with that technology drifting throughout the galaxy.It has been some time since I've seen the prequels, but wasn't he already aware of the planet's existence when he went into the library? and instead of it being there on the map there was just kind of a semi-empty spot of space? I don't recall sensors(Or Stealth technology, for that matter) having anything to do with Obi-Wan's discovery of the location.


(Though star wars sensors can very obviously detect life signs, as the lack of any was the given reason for not blowing up the escape pod.)

JCarter426
2012-09-10, 11:57 PM
Its been some time since I've seen the prequels, but wasn't he already aware of the planet's existence when he went into the library? and instead of it being there on the map there was just kind of a semi-empty spot of space? I don't recall sensors(Or Stealth technology, for that matter) having anything to do with Obi-Wan's discovery of the location.
No, no, no. He knew there was supposed to be a planet called Kamino there. But according to the Jedi archives, the planet never existed. He then goes to Yoda - who is in the same building - and explains that gravity is pulling all the neighboring stars towards that spot, but there's nothing there. He then needs a child to explain to him what that means. But the point is he is able to examine the entire galaxy's gravitational topography.

The only sensor that can detect a completely cloaked ship in Star Wars does so by detecting gravitational fluctuations. It's supposed to be rare by the time of the Empire, but it appears the Republic had plenty of them - or at least a very similar device.

Forum Explorer
2012-09-11, 12:13 AM
No, no, no. He knew there was supposed to be a planet called Kamino there. But according to the Jedi archives, the planet never existed. He then goes to Yoda - who is in the same building - and explains that gravity is pulling all the neighboring stars towards that spot, but there's nothing there. He then needs a child to explain to him what that means. But the point is he is able to examine the entire galaxy's gravitational topography.

The only sensor that can detect a completely cloaked ship in Star Wars does so by detecting gravitational fluctuations. It's supposed to be rare by the time of the Empire, but it appears the Republic had plenty of them - or at least a very similar device.

...or they could be using the tricks we use today to track gravity. They don't necessarily have to be using this super sensor.

Also I imagine there is a big difference between finding the gravitational pull of a planet vs a tiny fighter/ship. Not that this matters really for the purposes of this vs thread.

JCarter426
2012-09-11, 12:18 AM
...or they could be using the tricks we use today to track gravity. They don't necessarily have to be using this super sensor.
Except we can't do that, at least not with such precision. We don't even know how many stars there are in our own solar system.

Also I imagine there is a big difference between finding the gravitational pull of a planet vs a tiny fighter/ship. Not that this matters really for the purposes of this vs thread.
Yes, but it's still a similar technology at the very least. And this is the only thing that's capable of detecting Star Wars ships. If Star Wars ships are harder to spot and the Republic still has a chance of doing that, they have a good chance of detecting Starcraft ships as well.

Fallen Angel
2012-09-11, 12:29 AM
Except we can't do that, at least not with such precision. We don't even know how many stars there are in our own solar system.

Yes, but it's still a similar technology at the very least. And this is the only thing that's capable of detecting Star Wars ships. If Star Wars ships are harder to spot and the Republic still has a chance of doing that, they have a good chance of detecting Starcraft ships as well.

Number of Stars in our Solar System? Idiot.

Second, we can detect stars and their gravitional movements using telescopes. It's trivial for a FTL power to set up telescopes in deep space (near a oort cloud).

Forum Explorer
2012-09-11, 12:37 AM
Except we can't do that, at least not with such precision. We don't even know how many stars there are in our own solar system.

Yes, but it's still a similar technology at the very least. And this is the only thing that's capable of detecting Star Wars ships. If Star Wars ships are harder to spot and the Republic still has a chance of doing that, they have a good chance of detecting Starcraft ships as well.

Yes we do. There is only one star in our solar system. :smalltongue:

The point is that we can detect planets that we can otherwise not see by calculating the effects the gravity has on the star(s) near it. This doesn't always work but I think it's a good starting point.

The Republic which has so many more inhabited planets can build a much more complete picture then we can even if they were just using the same technology. But they aren't. They are using a much better version of anything we've got, plus some extra stuff. So my point is that the ability to detect a planet does not mean that these special sensors are any less rare back then. Not that it matters since, as you yourself point out, that those special sensors wouldn't be required at all.


Now the real question about cloaking is this: Will the Republic Fighters/ground forces have strong enough sensors to defeat the Terran's cloaking? We know the capital ships will be able to but the Republic has limited capital ships in this scenario plus I'm doubtful that a capital ship would be able to share it's sensor data with their fighters fast enough to stop the Wraiths from slaughtering the fighter screen.

JCarter426
2012-09-11, 12:59 AM
Number of Stars in our Solar System? Idiot.
Uh. No. NASA is still looking for Nemesis to this day. It's probably not there, but they while they were looking they found hundreds of brown dwarfs they thought weren't there. Then there's the matter of Tyche.

Second, we can detect stars and their gravitional movements using telescopes. It's trivial for a FTL power to set up telescopes in deep space (near a oort cloud).
Telescopes don't detect gravity. We observe gravitational fluctuations with telescopes visually. And we know that isn't what the Republic was doing because if that were the case, they would have visual records of Kamino in the Jedi archives (unless no one updated them in the 10 years since the info was erased... granted we're dealing with prequel logic here).

Yes we do. There is only one star in our solar system. :smalltongue:
See above.

The point is that we can detect planets that we can otherwise not see by calculating the effects the gravity has on the star(s) near it. This doesn't always work but I think it's a good starting point.

The Republic which has so many more inhabited planets can build a much more complete picture then we can even if they were just using the same technology.
Fair enough, they don't have a blind spot like we do. But it's worth noting that Kamino isn't even in the Republic. I think it isn't even in the same galaxy.

But they aren't. They are using a much better version of anything we've got, plus some extra stuff. So my point is that the ability to detect a planet does not mean that these special sensors are any less rare back then.
Well, the "extra stuff" at least does essentially the same thing as the magic gravity sensor thing. Perhaps it's not as sensitive, but it's also possible it is.

Not that it matters since, as you yourself point out, that those special sensors wouldn't be required at all.
I know, I'm just speculating.

Now the real question about cloaking is this: Will the Republic Fighters/ground forces have strong enough sensors to defeat the Terran's cloaking? We know the capital ships will be able to but the Republic has limited capital ships in this scenario plus I'm doubtful that a capital ship would be able to share it's sensor data with their fighters fast enough to stop the Wraiths from slaughtering the fighter screen.
Fighters seem to have the same sort of sensors. Luke's X-wing was able to detect a lot of life on Dagobah, for example.

Mando Knight
2012-09-11, 01:04 AM
Fair enough, they don't have a blind spot like we do. But it's worth noting that Kamino isn't even in the Republic. I think it isn't even in the same galaxy.

It is, but near the border (it's "just south" of the Rishi Maze, a nearby dwarf galaxy to the GFFA).

JCarter426
2012-09-11, 01:07 AM
Wookieepedia lists it as extragalactic, but I do not have the source material, The Essential Atlas, so I can't confirm.

Forum Explorer
2012-09-11, 01:11 AM
Uh. No. NASA is still looking for Nemesis to this day. It's probably not there, but they while they were looking they found hundreds of brown dwarfs they thought weren't there. Then there's the matter of Tyche.

Fighters seem to have the same sort of sensors. Luke's X-wing was able to detect a lot of life on Dagobah, for example.

That brings up the interesting question of where exactly does our solar system end. As far as I know there isn't an official answer to that question.


Yes but that's an easy scan. Dagobah is so full of life the most basic sensor could detect it. Do we have any better examples of detecting life on a smaller scale? Like checking wrecks for example.

DaedalusMkV
2012-09-11, 01:21 AM
Now the real question about cloaking is this: Will the Republic Fighters/ground forces have strong enough sensors to defeat the Terran's cloaking? We know the capital ships will be able to but the Republic has limited capital ships in this scenario plus I'm doubtful that a capital ship would be able to share it's sensor data with their fighters fast enough to stop the Wraiths from slaughtering the fighter screen.

As interesting as the question is, it's kind of irrelevent. The Republic doesn't really do independent fighter wings. If there's no Venator or carrier-modded Acclamator present, there won't be a significant fighter presence. If there is, Republic C&C is advanced enough to allow all of the fighters to benefit from the parent ship's sensor nets in real-time, which is more than effective enough to counter Wraith cloaking. Hell, if there is an independent Fighter presence they'll all be hyper-capable, which have universally been depicted with the level of detection we're looking at.

As for ground forces, it doesn't matter. Wraiths are terrible as an air support unit, being limited to rather ineffectual and inaccurate strafing runs which almost certainly lack the punch to take out a heavy Walker and aren't precise enough to hit Clones with any reliability. Banshees are experimental units still in testing, and unlikely to be deployed in an expeditionary force. Ghosts are exceedingly rare and valuable and will not be deployed in large numbers, and should largely be matched off against Jedi to be made mostly irrelevent. None of which matters, because the ground forces are losing to the Dominion's superior conventional forces to begin with.

JCarter426
2012-09-11, 01:34 AM
That brings up the interesting question of where exactly does our solar system end. As far as I know there isn't an official answer to that question.
Well, there are several "ends" - it depends on what you're measuring. But in terms of gravity, it's defined as the furthest point at which the sun's gravity would affect the orbit of another body. I believe that's something like 2 light years out.

Yes but that's an easy scan. Dagobah is so full of life the most basic sensor could detect it. Do we have any better examples of detecting life on a smaller scale? Like checking wrecks for example.
Eh... you're right. I just realized Luke's portable scanner failed to detect the wampa. But maybe they were only looking for humanoid life. And Rogue 2 could detect them. Hard to say... it kind of varies.

hamishspence
2012-09-11, 06:09 AM
If you go by The Thrawn Trilogy, 0.003 light years is typical for assembling just outside a star system, ready for attack, but too far away to detect.

There's two main ways to defeat sensors in Star Wars- cloaking devices, and "sensor-stealthing"- basically covering the ship in material that resists sensor scans. A "StealthX" is an X-wing that's been build with sensor-stealthing.

I'm not sure where the idea that "Star Wars ships are consistantly depicted with sensor nets that can detect ships with Dominion-grade cloaking" comes from- can you give examples in the books or TV serieses where ships detect and target such opponents?


Star Wars stealth is absolute and total blocking of the entire electromagnetic spectrum, because anything less does not work against Star Wars sensors. It is very uncommon in terms of actual use because total stealth like that means that there's no way to see out or communicate with the outside world, which is obviously somewhat troublesome.

There are three types of cloaking device in Star Wars. "Stygium cloaks" "hibridium cloaks" and "Thrawn's double-blind cloak". Only the third means you can't see out either.

In The Clone Wars- the Republic has a cloaked corvette, which is used in one episode to run a blockade- and the Separatists can't detect it, even with sensors. But it can see out of its own cloak just fine.

MLai
2012-09-11, 06:16 AM
I'm not sure where the idea that "Star Wars ships are consistantly depicted with sensor nets that can detect ships with Dominion-grade cloaking" comes from- can you give examples in the books or TV serieses where ships detect and target such opponents?
So you're asking for a SW media example where sensors are used to locate personnel/vehicles that are employing limited primitive cloaking modes, i.e. cloaking limited to only the visible spectrum and radar.

Or, where sensors are used to locate things in a manner that you know they're not depending on visible spectrum and/or radar, and so we can reasonably conclude would detect Dominion cloaked ships if used on them.

Just clarifying.


In The Clone Wars- the Republic has a cloaked corvette, which is used in one episode to run a blockade- and the Separatists can't detect it, even with sensors. But it can see out of its own cloak just fine.
Was the ship shown to be optically stealthed as well? Like on the screen you see the ship as invisible?

Just asking, because in space optical camouflage isn't that important since everyone is seeing everyone else by sensors not through some windshield.

Parra
2012-09-11, 06:24 AM
because in space optical camouflage isn't that important since everyone is seeing everyone else by sensors not through some windshield.

In more 'realistic' space combat I would agree.
But in SW they seem to have don't-fire-until-you-see-the-whites-of-their-eyes approach to space combat.

hamishspence
2012-09-11, 06:30 AM
Was the ship shown to be optically stealthed as well? Like on the screen you see the ship as invisible?

Just asking, because in space optical camouflage isn't that important since everyone is seeing everyone else by sensors not through some windshield.

It was optically stealthed.

JCarter426
2012-09-11, 06:40 AM
There are three types of cloaking device in Star Wars. "Stygium cloaks" "hibridium cloaks" and "Thrawn's double-blind cloak". Only the third means you can't see out either.
No, it's just stygium and hibridium. The latter is the double blind one.

I'm not sure where the idea that "Star Wars ships are consistantly depicted with sensor nets that can detect ships with Dominion-grade cloaking" comes from- can you give examples in the books or TV serieses where ships detect and target such opponents?
Because both methods block out everything. Everything. And the most logical explanation is anything short of that wouldn't render the ship invisible to plain old sensors.

In The Clone Wars- the Republic has a cloaked corvette, which is used in one episode to run a blockade- and the Separatists can't detect it, even with sensors. But it can see out of its own cloak just fine.
We aren't talking about the Separatists, are we?

shadow_archmagi
2012-09-11, 07:38 AM
An Acclamator is going to get its ass kicked by a Battlecruiser or a Wraith wing on account of its abysmal armour, poor shields and pathetic weaponry.

One Acclamator and its fighter wing will kick the snot out of a Battlecruiser and Wraith wing



You're a bit indecisive there, huh?

hamishspence
2012-09-11, 08:26 AM
No, it's just stygium and hibridium. The latter is the double blind one.

This was retconned in The Essential Guide to Warfare- that clarifies that Thrawn's cloak was not hibridium, and hibridium is not double-blind.
http://jasonfry.tumblr.com/post/26352866819/eg-to-warfare-endnotes-pt-14

Because both methods block out everything. Everything. And the most logical explanation is anything short of that wouldn't render the ship invisible to plain old sensors.

We aren't talking about the Separatists, are we?

Republic and Separatist tech is roughly equivalent. After all,the Separatists were part of the Republic shortly before.

If stygium cloaks "block everything" yet the crew of a TIE Phantom, or that corvette, can still see out, why not the same for Wraiths?

JCarter426
2012-09-11, 08:41 AM
This was retconned in The Essential Guide to Warfare- that clarifies that Thrawn's cloak was not hibridium, and hibridium is not double-blind.
http://jasonfry.tumblr.com/post/26352866819/eg-to-warfare-endnotes-pt-14
Huh. Wookieepedia seems to be out of date. Typical.

Republic and Separatist tech is roughly equivalent. After all,the Separatists were part of the Republic shortly before.
Well, yes and no. They're mostly made up of a few corporations that had their own ships and such, with several of the outlying star systems joining the cause later, though most of them did so because the Republic wasn't supplying them with all the ships and such they felt they deserved. The whole situation is analogous to the American Civil War, in which the Union far outmatched the Confederacy in terms of industrial and military strength. Separatist technology is shown to be inferior in several cases already; for example, one clone is as good as twenty battle droids.

If stygium cloaks "block everything" yet the crew of a TIE Phantom, or that corvette, can still see out, why not the same for Wraiths?
Because that's not how it's described? In Starcraft it's purely visual, as far as I know. That's not the case in Star Wars, even with the stygium variety. At least according to Wookieepedia, but maybe that's wrong as well.

BRC
2012-09-11, 08:51 AM
Huh. Wookieepedia seems to be out of date. Typical.

Well, yes and no. They're mostly made up of a few corporations that had their own ships and such, with several of the outlying star systems joining the cause later, though most of them did so because the Republic wasn't supplying them with all the ships and such they felt they deserved. The whole situation is analogous to the American Civil War, in which the Union far outmatched the Confederacy in terms of industrial and military strength. Separatist technology is shown to be inferior in several cases already; for example, one clone is as good as twenty battle droids.

Because that's not how it's described? In Starcraft it's purely visual, as far as I know. That's not the case in Star Wars, even with the stygium variety. At least according to Wookieepedia, but maybe that's wrong as well.
It's can't be Purely Visual. Remember, Battle Cruisers and Carriers don't see through cloaks. Those are main capital ships, so either the only method of detection used by both Protoss and Terran on their capital ships is "Have some guy stand at a window", or Cloaks can only be detected by advanced sensor equipment like that on Missile Turrets (A ground-based instillation), Science Vessels, Observers, and other Detector Units.