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View Full Version : A Simple Test For MAD; The Three 8s Rule



Alabenson
2012-09-07, 09:32 AM
I've been working on a few class fixes, part of which has involved fixing MAD issues with some. In the process, I've developed a simple test to check for MAD issues, and would like some feedback to see what the playground thinks of it;

Assume a theoretical member of the class being tested has a 16 in its three most important stats, and an 8 in the other three. If the character would be able to function fine, both in and out of combat, than the class is acceptable from a MAD standpoint. If the class would have severe issues, on the other hand, than it needs to be reworked.

Morph Bark
2012-09-07, 01:03 PM
If a character with a 3x16+3x8 array would function fine, they can still be pretty MAD, if they were pretty reliant on the scores they had 16s in.

Testing for SAD is, of course, very simple.

I prefer my classes to be BAD, possibly with a twinge of TAD.

Maquise
2012-09-07, 01:03 PM
I can see this working. For example, let me compare the 3.5 Paladin to the Pathfinder version.

In a PF Paladin, a character with 16s in Strength, Charisma, and Constitution would be fairly decent, even with 8s in the rest. However, a 3.5 Paladin would at that point have completely worthless spellcasting. They would have to either give up their class features, hitpoints or the ability to deal damage to get it back.

toapat
2012-09-07, 07:58 PM
I can see this working. For example, let me compare the 3.5 Paladin to the Pathfinder version.

In a PF Paladin, a character with 16s in Strength, Charisma, and Constitution would be fairly decent, even with 8s in the rest. However, a 3.5 Paladin would at that point have completely worthless spellcasting. They would have to either give up their class features, hitpoints or the ability to deal damage to get it back.

except that a +6 wisdom item negates that problem.

also, there is the significant problem of comparing the PF paladin to the 3.5 one, where the PF paladin has less of a MAD issue, but is actually lower tier then the 3.5 one (considering there are ways in 3.5 to reduce MAD for pally, ACFs and Substitution levels that just put PF archetypes to shame, and other benefits of a massive 4 year project)

Tavar
2012-09-07, 08:21 PM
Attribute dependency isn't a measure of power. Look at the Warlock and Dragon Fire Adept: neither is top-ranked in terms of power, but the former is dependent on no attributes, and the latter only on Constitution. Not saying there isn't a relationship, but the one isn't clear if it is present.

Alabenson
2012-09-07, 08:37 PM
except that a +6 wisdom item negates that problem.

also, there is the significant problem of comparing the PF paladin to the 3.5 one, where the PF paladin has less of a MAD issue, but is actually lower tier then the 3.5 one (considering there are ways in 3.5 to reduce MAD for pally, ACFs and Substitution levels that just put PF archetypes to shame, and other benefits of a massive 4 year project)

If you have to spend 36,000 gp on a stat boosting item in order to use your class features, then, in my opinion, your class is too MAD.

The idea behind the test is that a class should be able to safely dump at least three stats without needing to expend extra resources in order to function in the areas it's supposed to be able to function. Obviously, the fewer stats a class needs the better, but I feel three is a reasonable maximum.

Edit:

Attribute dependency isn't a measure of power. Look at the Warlock and Dragon Fire Adept: neither is top-ranked in terms of power, but the former is dependent on no attributes, and the latter only on Constitution. Not saying there isn't a relationship, but the one isn't clear if it is present.

While SAD isnít necessarily an indication of a high-tier class, serious issues with MAD is often part of the problem behind many low-tier classes, particularly those who tend to attract homebrew fixes.

This test is supposed to show whether or not a class is sufficiently MAD that it negatively impacts its viability.

toapat
2012-09-07, 10:03 PM
If you have to spend 36,000 gp on a stat boosting item in order to use your class features, then, in my opinion, your class is too MAD.

The idea behind the test is that a class should be able to safely dump at least three stats without needing to expend extra resources in order to function in the areas it's supposed to be able to function. Obviously, the fewer stats a class needs the better, but I feel three is a reasonable maximum.

Im not saying that Paladin isnt MAD in 3.5, im saying that the 3.5 Paladin is actually a higher tier class then the PF paladin.

basically, one houserule for 3.5 Paladin takes it from T5 (Which it is at because of MAD), to Tier 3. PF paladin is a solid T4

Morph Bark
2012-09-08, 02:21 AM
Well, there's also the fact that there are feats that change the Paladin's Cha features to Wis, or their spellcasting to Cha, but those are Dragon material.

Just to Browse
2012-09-08, 05:04 AM
I think this is a very good piece of common sense, but shouldn't it go in the 3.5e RPG section and not homebrew?